Uranjanje u ishodište mita Immersion Into the Origin …oris.hr/files/pdf/zastita/211/Oris 96_Jagoda Buic.pdfzemlji i ti će ga korijeni oformiti. Međutim, on će se nekim dru -

oris, broj 96, godina 2015. jagoda buić, Intervju168 169oris, number 96, year 2015 jagoda buić, Interview

Interviewed in Dubrovnik on 15 September 2015

¶ The Grande damme of the Croatian and European visual art scene, Jagoda Buić has aspired to conquering new fields since the beginning of her work until present time, in costume design and scenography, as well as primarily, in the art of tapestry. She has freed tapestry from two-dimensional aspect and bestowed it with the meaning of sculpture. Her tapestries, exhibited in significant European and American museums possess primary, archetypal qualities, which is also probably because of their connectedness with the work of traditional weavers from rural areas. She believes that the strongest formative influence was Zagreb’s art scene of the late 1950s and 1960s, a time of unu-sually vibrant and creative blossoming in different fields, from visual arts to theatre and architecture.

Razgovarali u Dubrovniku 15. rujna 2015.

¶ Grande dame hrvatske i europske likovne scene, Jagoda Buić, od početaka svog rada do danas teži osvajanju novih područja kako u kostimografiji i scenografiji tako prije svega i u umjetnosti tapiserije. Ona je tapiseriju oslobodila dvo-dimenzionalnosti i dala joj značenje skulpture. Njene tapi-serije, izlagane u važnim europskim i američkim muzejima, posjeduju primarne, arhetipske kvalitete, vjerojatno i zbog povezanosti s radom tradicionalnih tkalji iz ruralnih sredina. Najjačim formativnim utjecajem sama smatra zagrebačku umjetničku scenu kasnih 50-ih i 60-ih godina – vrijeme neobično živog i kreativnog procvata na različitim poljima od likovne umjetnosti do teatra i arhitekture.

Vera Grimmer

razgovaralainterviewed by

jagoda buić

Immersion Into the Origin of the Myth

jagoda buić

Uranjanje u ishodište mita

fotografije photographs by

portreti portraits

Arhiva / Archive Jagoda Buić (jb); Vedran Benović, Srećko Budek - Muzej za umjetnost i obrt / Museum of Arts and Crafts (bb); Damir Fabijanić (df); Ante Verzotti (av);Ljubaznošću Odsjeka za povijest hrvatskoga kazališta hazu / Courtesy of the Department of History of Croatian Theater hazu (Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts) (pk)Damil Kalogjera


ORIS — I would like to start the interview with an impressive quote by Tonko Maroević: Directors used to come to Jagoda Buić when the epic past, elementary Greek scenes, Celtic or Slavic stories were to be evoked, when the origin of the myth, taken from the source, was to be explored and when the elementary or original was to be presented. ¶ jagoda buić — You reminded me of the time when I was very young and lucky to work with the mythical repertoire and, by force of circumstances, classical repertoire of festivals, which was in accord with my inclination towards starting from the source. It actually defines me in every work. In the most basic drawing I like to get to the core, to work as if there were nothing before. When I think of the Greeks, I always think how brilliant they were because there were no Greeks before them. There is a beautiful quote by Jure Kaštelan which was the motto of all my efforts for years. Tonko and Jure were both my close friends, they came from the same land, the same soil and stone. I am very proud that they both saw it in me.ORIS — This labyrinth, dark form the light, the hand which documents by turning time into a shape. This quote by Jure Kaštelan also illustrates the distinctive features and basic elements of your work. ¶ jagoda buić — With this text Kaštelan defined me in advance. I am very proud to have inspired him to write such a line. Gaudi encouraged me with

ORIS — Intervju bih započela jednim dojmljivim citatom Tonka Maroevića: Režiseri su se obraćali Jagodi Buić kad je trebalo evocirati epsku prošlost, elementarne grčke prizore, keltske ili slavenske priče, kad je trebalo uroniti u ishodište mita, zagrabiti s izvora i ukazati na ono primarno, prvotno. ¶ jagoda buić — Podsjetili ste me na vrijeme kada sam kao vrlo mlada imala sreću raditi repertoar mitske prirode – stje-cajem okolnosti na festivalima s klasičnim repertoarom – što je pogodovalo mom afinitetu prema kretanju od izvora. To me zapravo karakterizira u svakom radu. U najbanalnijem crtežu volim doći do dna, raditi kao da ničega nije bilo prije. Kad mislim o Grcima, uvijek pomislim koliko su bili genijalni, jer prije njih nije bilo Grka. Ima jedan prekrasan citat Jure Kaštelana koji je godinama bio moto svih mojih nastojanja. I Tonko i Jure bili su moji bliski prijatelji, potekli s istog terena, iste zemlje i kamena. Vrlo sam ponosna da su obojica znali to prepoznati u meni.ORIS — Ovaj labirint, mračan od svjetlosti, ruka koja ostavlja zapis pretvarajući vrijeme u oblik. Ovaj citat Jure Kaštelana također ukazuje na osobitosti i na primarnost Vašeg rada. ¶ jagoda buić — Kaštelan me tim tekstom unaprijed odre-dio. Jako sam ponosna da sam mogla inspirirati takav stih. Gaudi me potaknuo jednim svojim citatom: Ako hoćeš biti izvoran, vrati se izvorima. Ne postoji internacionalni umjetnik,

svaki je umjetnik potekao iz svoga terena, ima korijene u svojoj zemlji i ti će ga korijeni oformiti. Međutim, on će se nekim dru-gim svojim svojstvima staviti u kontekst koji je međunarodno značajan. Rano sam shvatila da francuska moderna tapiserija ni po čemu nije moderna osim što kopira moderno slikarstvo. Tada je Marie Cuttoli bila prva, priznat je bio i Jean Lurçat, cijela jedna sjajna ekipa koja je imala velike privilegije. Francuzi nisu htjeli odustati od svoje tradicije koju su preuzeli od Flamanaca i ulagali su velika sredstva u atelje u Aubussonu i Gobelins u Parizu. Ne može se jednim likovnim sredstvom prezentirati neki drugi likovni događaj, a to znači da nešto što je tkano ne može biti prezentirano slikom. Tkanje ima svoju materijanu podsvijest i svoju strukturiranu svijest.ORIS — Napravili ste iskorak u razvoju tapiserije, otvorili ste neke nove poglede i metode. Ustvari oslobodili ste tapi-seriju plošnosti i prenijeli je u trodimenzionalnu strukturu. Možete li možda naći neke paralele iz toga doba kada ste Vi to radili istodobno s poljskom umjetnicom Magdalenom Abakanowicz ne znajući jedna za drugu? Iako mislim da je ona po umjetničkoj ekspresiji potpuno drugačija od Vaše kre-ativnosti. ¶ jagoda buić — Ona i ja smo počele zajedno, to su oni sretni trenutci kad se inovatori nađu kao prijatelji uz čašu vina i vjeruju u svoje ideale. Tu je bila i grupa Čeha; naravno da je među Poljacima najistaknutija bila Magdalena Abakanowicz s kojom sam u nekoliko navrata i izlagala. To su oni zlatni veseli počeci puni entuzijazma. To se u svijetu zvalo Slavenski val, a na vrhu njega bile smo Magdalena i ja, koje smo poslije svaka krenule svojim individualnim putem, ali smo se u istom trenutku zaista našle na čelu avangarde i to je urodilo lijepim prijateljstvom. Ona je apsolutno dostojna svoje poljske nacije koja je iza nje stajala u punom smislu te riječi, što se ne bi moglo reći za mene. Kako Francuzi nisu htjeli izgubiti svoj prestiž u modermoj tapiseriji – makar se i ne slagali – dali su mi mogućnost da imam svoj atelje, svoju školu za mlade studente, da izlažem u francuskim muzejima, a počelo je to s Muzejom grada Pariza 1975. godine. Tada sam prvi put izložila svoje ambijentalne kompozicije. Iza sebe sam imala dosta dugo iskustvo scenografije na otvorenim prostorima pa sam kreirala taj novi prostorni koncept kojem sam težila.ORIS — Može se reći da Vaši skulpturalni tapiserijski ambi-jenti pomalo u toj svojoj arhetipičnosti i svečanosti gotovo podsjećaju na antički teatar i nije, kao što ste već rekli, slu-čajno da je Vaš život u teatru vezan za antiku. Ako smijem izreći svoje osobno iskustvo, još mi je uvijek u sjećanju, kao jedan od najsnažnijih teatarskih doživljaja, predstava Edip iz 1964. u gradskom dramskom kazalištu Gavella od 1970., u

his words: If you want to be original, return to your sources. There is no international artist; every artist comes from his land and has roots in the country that has shaped him. He will, however, place himself in an internationally significant context using some other instruments. I realised early on that French modern tapestry had no modern qualities other than the fact that they copied modern painting. Marie Cuttoli was the first, Jean Lurçat was also important: an entire brilliant team that had great privileges. The French did not want to break with the tradition they had taken over from the Flemish and they invested a lot of money in the studio in Aubusson and Gobelins School in Paris. A means of art cannot be used to present another art form, which means that something that is woven cannot be presented by painting. Fabric has its material subconsciousness and structured consciousness.ORIS — You have made a breakthrough in the development of tapestry and presented some new views and methods. You have actually freed tapestry of its flatness and trans-formed it into a three-dimensional structure. Can you maybe draw some parallels from the period when you were creating simultaneously with the Polish artist Magdalena Abakano-wicz, when neither of you knew of each other’s existence? I think that her art expression is completely different from your creative work, though. ¶ jagoda buić — We began

Nikad nisam radila kostime, radila sam likove. Mene zanima čovjek u tom kostimu. Nekad glumac ponese kostim, a češće kostim ponese glumca I have never designed costumes, I have created characters. I’m interested in the person in costume. Sometimes the actor wears the costume and, more often, the costume wears the actor


režiji Dine Radojevića, gdje su Vaši kostimi bili itekako nosi-telj predstave, uz one prekrasne glumce na pozornici (Tonko Lonza kao Edip i Vjera Žagar Nardelli kao Jokasta). Kostimi su podsjećali na arhajske figure s naborima, onda kada ljud-ska figura izlazi iz stupa i postaje čovjek. Ali, također, sud-bina likova već je bila predodređena i kolorizmom. ¶ jagoda buić — Vrlo ste me, mogu reći, potresli vašim sjećanjem na Edipa u dramskom kazalištu čega se ja više gotovo ne sjećam i jako mi je drago vidjeti da je to ostalo u sjećanju. Znači nisam radila uzalud. Znate, u teatru čovjek uvijek ima osjećaj da je sve tako efemerno. Kad bi se zastor spustio nakon premijere, uvijek bih došla vrlo žalosna na praznu scenu te bih pred otvorenim zastorom i pred praznim gledalištem rekla: Tako, završila se još jedna euforija. Zatvorio se još jedan krug. Never more! Nikad nisam radila kostime, radila sam likove. Mene zanima čovjek u tom kostimu. Nekad glumac ponese kostim, a češće kostim ponese glumca. Primjer toga bili su kostimi za pred-stavu Hamlet na Lovrijencu 1974. g. Imala sam, moram reći, puno hrabrosti, da si prvi put u teatru priuštimo luksuz da glumci na sebi nose rukom tkane kostime. To su radile moje tkalje na Pešterskoj visoravni, u Sjenici. Glumce sam pustila da hodaju bosi po toplom kamenu. Bili su gotovo bez šminke, da se ne bi pokvarilo sunce na licima. To je bio jedan izuzetno

together; those were the happy times when innovators used to meet as friends and shared their beliefs over a glass of wine. There was also a group of Czechs and Magdalena Abakanow-icz was, naturally, the most distinguished among the Polish. I used to exhibit my work with her – there were those happy beginnings full of enthusiasm, the period called the Slavic wave in the world. Magdalena and I were on top, at the same time we were at the head of the avant-garde, which resulted in a warm friendship. Later on, each of us followed our own path. She is absolutely worthy of the acclaim of the Polish nation. They stood behind her in the full sense of the word, which cannot be said about me. The French did not want to lose their prestige in modern tapestry and, even though they disagreed with me, they gave me the opportunity to have my own studio, school for young students and to hold exhibitions in French museums. This started in the Museum of the City of Paris in 1975, when I exhibited my ambient compositions for the first time. I had long experience of stage design in open spaces so I designed this new spatial concept I had always aspired to create.ORIS — It can be said that your sculptural tapestry atmos-pheres, archetypical and solemn, almost remind us of the ancient theatre and, as you have mentioned, it is not

accidental that your life in the theatre is connected with antiquity. If I may, I would like to share one of my most pow-erful theatrical experiences with you – I still remember the play Oedipus the King at the Zagreb Drama Theatre1 in 1964, and directed by Dino Radojević. Your costumes carried the play and there were these beautiful actors on stage (Tonko Lonza as Oedipus and Vjera Žagar Nardelli as Jocasta). The costumes evoked archaic representations of human figures – the figures would resemble columns and afterwards they would take human forms. Also, the colours defined the des-tiny of the characters. ¶ jagoda buić — Your words about the Oedipus in the Drama Theatre have moved me because I don’t remember the play anymore and I’m very happy to hear that it has remained etched in your memory. It means that I haven’t been working in vain. When you work in the theatre, you always have the feeling that everything is so ephemeral. When the curtain came down after the premiere, I always approached the empty stage in front of the curtain, look at the empty seats and say: Yet another wave of euphoria has died down. Another cycle has finished. Never more! I have never designed costumes, I have always created characters.

1 Gavella Drama Theatre since 1970

lijepi eksperiment koji se više nije ponovio. Danas su ti kostimi – našla sam ih negdje na dnu magazina Ljetnih igara – zabo-ravljeni. No, spasila sam ih i sada su razasuti po muzejima. Jedan u Salzburgu, Veneciji itd.ORIS — Spomenuli ste prelje sa Sandžaka. Bio je to jedan vrlo specifičan način rada kojem ste Vi pristupili. Je li u toj suradnji bilo izvjesne uzajamnosti u smislu inovacije u tehnici tkanja? ¶ jagoda buić — U prvom redu, one su tkale kao njihove prabake. Počele su tkati s 8 godina. Tkale su cijelu mladost, u vrijeme kad sam ja učila svirati klavir. Kad smo se zajedno našle dogodio se jedan sretan sraz. Ja sam vjerovala njima, a one meni. I to je potpuno neopterećeno, s puno ljubavi i entu-zijazma, dovelo do uzbudljivih rezultata. Pešterska visoravan nalazi se na tromeđi između Bosne, Srbije i Crne Gore. Kako bi se to lijepo reklo: In the middle of nowhere. Jednako je sati potrebno iz Sarajeva, Dubrovnika i Beograda da bi se došlo do tamo. Ja sam se devet sati drndala u autobusima s košarama i kokošima nad glavom. S njima sam radila na 20 stupnjeva ispod nule. Crtala sam na ledu jer lakše je crtati na ledu nego na snijegu. To je ipak dovelo do vrlo lijepih rezultata koji su nažalost u vihoru ovog prošlog rata nestali. S nekima od tkalja još sam uvijek u kontaktu i vrlo sam im zahvalna. Nakon moje avanture u tapiseriji i tkanju prešla sam u novi medij – papir. Papir je pametan, podatan, svejedno je li kutija od ambalaže ili najfiniji japanski papir.ORIS — Svoje radove na papiru pokazali ste u Zagrebu u Glip-toteci 2008., a izložba je nosila naziv Carta canta. ¶ jagoda buić — Prvo je bila u Sarajevu u Skenderiji, pa je onda došla u Gliptoteku. Izuzetno lijepi prostori u Gliptoteci dali su mi hrabrost i impuls da nastavim. Za mene je to bio eksperiment, ali kada sam ušla u dijalog s tim prostorom onda se taj dijalog nastavio i u drugim prostorima. Sada sam u svom ateljeu u Pro-vansi ostavila pet kolaža velikog formata vezanih za teme koje me bole. Jedan kolaž zove se Lampedusa, drugi Migracija, treći se zove Bijeg i još jedan se zove Zmaj, vezano za tehniku kojom djeca prave zmajeve. Naravno, čovjek se ne može odvojiti od onoga što se oko njega događa i što ga dira. Ako ima dušu i srce ne mogu ga ne dirnuti te ruke koje se pružaju iz vode koja tako indiferentno preko njih prelazi.ORIS — Školovali ste se na Akademiji za primijenjenu umjet-nost u Beču. Kako vidite odnos između primijenjene i tzv. čiste umjetnosti? ¶ jagoda buić — Ja sam đak u to vrijeme slavnog profesora Otta Niedermosera na Odjelu za interijer. Tada se vodio rat između studenata na Schillerplatzu 8 (Aka-demija likovnih umjetnosti) i Stubenringu 2 (Akademija za primijenjenu umjetnost). To je bio rat i diskusija. Umjetnost je umjetnost. Nema primijenjene i neprimijenjene. Samo što

Sofoklo, Kralj Edip, Gradsko dramsko kazalište Gavella,

Zagreb, redatelj Dino Radojević,

kostimografkinja Jagoda Buić, 1963.

Sophocles, Oedipus the King, Gavella Drama Theatre,

Zagreb, directed by Dino Radojević, costume design by

Jagoda Buić, 1963

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William Shakespeare, Hamlet, Dubrovačke ljetne igre, redatelj Dino Radojević, kostimografkinja Jagoda Buić, 1974.

William Shakespeare, Hamlet, Dubrovnik Summer Festival, directed by Dino Radojević, costume design by Jagoda Buić, 1974

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je primijenjena umjetnost, ako želi biti umjetnost, u težem položaju nego ova takozvana slobodna, zato što ona mora poštovati zakonitosti praktične primjene.ORIS — Govorimo o procesu Vaše edukacije koji je de facto počeo u Zagrebu, ali ustvari i puno prije. Počeo je u Vašoj roditeljskoj kući gdje ste imali priliku susresti se s glazbenom i likovnom umjetnošću. Zatim u Zagrebu na Akademiji primi-jenjene umjetnosti. ¶ jagoda buić — Proces moje edukacije bio je, naravno, vrlo uzbudljiv. Educirana sam od austrijske i francuske guvernante, baleta, škole, poduke u klaviru, dakle od svega onog što čini jedno idilično djetinjstvo. Tada smo

stanovali na splitskoj rivi. Taj lijepi ambijent sa slikama hrvat-ske moderne koje su mom ocu bile poklanjane s ljubavlju bio je u kući Katalinić na splitskom lukobranu. Jednog dana zatresao se svijet pred našim prozorima, pale su bombe i kada sam otvorila oči bio je Drugi svjetski rat, bilo je to 6. travnja 1941. Moja edukacija je išla kroz Drugi svjetski rat kada sam se suočila sa životom, sa smrću, s pravim stvarima i s neumitnim vrijednostima koje se vjerojatno odražavaju na ono mitsko o čemu smo razgovarali. Edukacija nije bila škol-ska koliko je nastajala u životnoj opasnosti. U našoj kući za vrijeme policijskog sata igrali su se Glembajevi. Moja mama

I’m interested in the human figure in costume. Sometimes the actor wears the costume and, more often, the costume wears the actor. For example, the costumes for Hamlet, which was performed at Fort Lovrijenac in 1974, can illustrate this well. I have to say that it was really brave of me to ask of the theatre to afford the luxury of hand-woven costumes for the actors. My weavers on the Pešter Plateau, in the Sjenica area, cre-ated them. The actors were barefoot on warm stones. They wore almost no make-up so the sun on their faces remained unspoilt. It was an extremely nice experiment that was never carried out again. These costumes are forgotten today; I found

them at the bottom of the storehouse of the Dubrovnik Sum-mer Festival. I saved them and now they are exhibited in vari-ous museums – in Salzburg, Venice, etc.ORIS — You have mentioned weavers from the Sandžak region. It was a very specific method of work you decided to employ. Was there any conscious exchange of ideas, regard-ing the innovations in the weaving technique? ¶ jagoda buić — First, they used to weave like their grandmothers. They began weaving when they were eight. At the time when I was learning how to play the piano, they had already spent their whole youth weaving. When we met, we were a winning combination. I believed them and they believed me. With a lot of love and enthusiasm and under no pressure our coopera-tion produced exciting results. The Pešter Plateau is situated between Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro; in the middle of nowhere, figuratively speaking. It takes the same amount of time to reach it from Sarajevo, Dubrovnik and Belgrade. I used to travel for nine hours by bus – with baskets and chickens over my head – to reach them and work with them at 20 degrees below zero. I used to draw on ice because it was easier to draw on ice than on snow. We achieved some beautiful results which, unfortunately, disappeared in the horrors of the last war. I still keep in touch with some of the weavers and am very grateful to them. After my adventure with the tapestry and weaving, I found a new medium – paper. Paper is smart and supple, whether it is just a box or the finest Japanese paper.

Ja sam proizvod tog Zagreba iz kasnih 50-ih i 60-ih. Imala sam izuzetnu sreću da u tome sudjelujem kao đak i suradnik I was thus a product of such Zagreb in the late 1950s and 1960s; I was very fortunate to participate in this life as a student and an associate

Pešterska visoravan,

Srbija, 1970.

Pešter Plateau,

Serbia, 1970

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Zajednički rad na tapiseriji Crni strukturirani volumen, Pešterska visoravan, Srbija, 1970.

Collective work on the Black Structured Volume tapestry, Pešter plateau, Serbia, 1970

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je i dalje imala svoga Leopardija na noćnom ormariću i dalje se po Danteu računalo vrijeme. Fašisti u crnim košuljama tražili su i od mene da pozdravim romanamente, a ja nisam. Vratili su me natrag i zatražili ponovno, no ja nisam digla ruku. Nakon što sam treći put odbila, izbacili su me iz svih škola. Nisam bila svjesna da bi mi oca mogli strijeljati, jer je meni tada bio važniji moj ponos nego opasnost. Onda je došlo oslobođenje i svi smo bili jako sretni. Tada mi je direk-torica škole u uniformi jednog dana rekla: Slušaj ti, Buić, ti nisi upisana u Savez omladine. Ja kažem: Je li to dobrovoljno? Ona kaže: Naravno! Sloboda, dobrovoljno… Ja kažem: Vidite, onda sam Vam ja jedina mogućnost da dokažete da je to dobrovoljno. I onda opet van iz svih škola. Tako sam dospjela u Dubrovnik. Dolazila sam jednim drugim vjetrom, iz drugog grada i slobodnijeg mentaliteta. Vjerojatno je to zračilo iz mog nastupa i uvjetovalo moj školski uspjeh. Moja nepot-puna edukacija upotpunila se time što sam donosila nešto na svojim krilima čega tamo gdje sam doletila još nije bilo. U Dubrovnik sam došla iz Splita, a u Beč iz Rima koji je 50-ih godina bio centar zbivanja.ORIS — To je bilo zapravo zlatno doba. Godine 1951. Fellini radi film I Vitelloni, 1953. La Stradu. ¶ jagoda buić — Tako je. Ja sam ga gledala u kavanama. I prema tome sam u Beč na krilima donijela taj vjetar.ORIS — Je li taj bečki milje, kad ste studirali, bio u neku ruku za vas poticajan? Tada je, što se teatra tiče, bilo podrumskih, tzv. Kellertheatera, dok je Burgtheater još bio dosta zapra-šen; tek se zapravo 80-ih godina dolaskom Clausa Peymanna teatar oslobodio i postao avangardan i moderan. ¶ jagoda buić — Tada je Friedrich Gulda, svjetski pijanist, svake večeri svirao u jednom malom lokalu koji se zvao Strohkoffer.ORIS — Strohkoffer je tada bio sastajalište avangarde. ¶ jagoda buić — Da, išli smo u Strohkoffer svaku večer, da bih paralelno sa Strohkofferom prisustvovala koncertima koje su Karajan i Furtwängler, u svojoj svemirskoj svađi, svirali u razmaku od 15 dana, isti repertoar. Svi moji kolege dolazili su s partiturama. Ja ne, ja sam to po splitski, bez partitura. Jedne večeri imala sam u džepu tek jedan šiling pa je trebalo birati hoću li pojesti Gulaschsuppe ili ići u Brahms-Saal. I u tom prostoru s najboljom akustikom u Beču tada je zazvučao bas mladog Čangalovića. To je bilo vrijeme prave edukacije!ORIS — Da se još vratimo na tapiseriju. Kako se određujete prema rodnoj definiciji tapiserije u smislu da ona po svojoj mekoći i gipkosti predstavlja žensko počelo? Tradicija kazuje da Arijadnina nit spašava Tezeja, Penelopa tka i oblaže svoju bračnu postelju, Parke predu sudbinu itd. Je li Vam bliska ta ženska određenost tapiserijske umjetnosti? ¶ jagoda

ORIS — You presented your works in paper at the exhibition titled Carta canta organised at the Glyptotheque of Zagreb in 2008. ¶ jagoda buić — They were first exhibited at the Skenderija Centre in Sarajevo. The rooms in the Glyptotheque that are extremely beautiful gave me the courage and impulse to carry on. It was an experiment for me, but when I engaged in a dialogue with the rooms, it also continued elsewhere. I have just left five huge collages at my studio in Provence, which are related to the topics that affect me. One collage is called Lampedusa, another Migration, then Escape, and finally Dragon which refers to the technique children use when they make dragons. It is not possible to distance yourself from the events around you; they have to affect you. If you have a heart and a soul, you cannot remain unaffected by the scenes of hands reaching out of water that overwhelms them so callously.

Ruža vjetrova, Split, Hrvatska, 1987.

The Wind Rose, Split, Croatia, 1987

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Migracije, 2015., kolaž, detalj

Migrations, 2015., collage, detail

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A sve ideologije, misli i velike aktivnosti išle su samo uz otpor, jer se tada razvijala nužna energija da nešto postane i intelektualno i stvarno

All the ideologies could only have been developed, expressed and carried out with resistance because back then the necessary energy was generated to make something intellectual and real

buić — Nema nikakve sumnje, neka su zanimanja vezana uz žensko biće. Postoje trajanja koja su vezana za žensku sudbinu i nije nimalo čudno da je tkanje koje je vezano za ognjište imalo i svoje trajanje koje isto pripada ženskoj sudbini.ORIS — Zagreb je 50-ih i 60-ih godina imao živu avangar-dnu scenu, kako u teatru tako i u drugim umjetnostima. U 60-tim godinama dolazi do osuvremenjivanja klasika, isto tako kostimima i scenografijama, kao i režijom. To je doba

ORIS — You went to the Academy of Applied Arts in Vienna. What is your view on the relation between applied and so-called pure art? ¶ jagoda buić — I was a student of the then famous professor Otto Niedermoser at the Department of Interior Design. Back then there was a war between students from Schillerplatz 8 (Academy of Fine Arts) and Stubenring 2 (Academy of Applied Arts). It was a war and discussion. Art is art. There is no applied or non-applied art. Applied art is, of course, in a far more difficult position than this so-called free art because it has to obey the rules of practical application.ORIS — We have been talking about the process of your education which, in fact, started in Zagreb, but had actually begun much earlier. It began in your parents’ home, where you had the opportunity to come into contact with music and art. Then it continued in Zagreb, at the Academy of Applied Arts. ¶ jagoda buić — The process of my education was, of course, very exciting. I had Austrian and French governesses, took ballet and piano lessons, went to school… I had an idyl-lic childhood. Back then we lived at the Riva waterfront in the city of Split. A pleasant ambience, which was created by the paintings from the Croatian Modernism that had been given to my father with love, dominated the Katalinić house at the pier of the city of Split. Then, one day, the world shook before our eyes, the bombs fell and when I opened my eyes, there was the Second World War; it began on 6th April 1941. I actually received education during the Second World War – when I was faced with life, death, real problems and indis-putable values, which are probably reflected in the mythical that we have already discussed. My education continued in life-threatening circumstances. The play Glembajevi was per-formed during the curfew. My mother still had her Leopardi on her bedside table and time was set by Dante. The fascist Blackshirts told me to salute romanamente but I did not do it. They told me again to do it, but I never raised my hand. After I had rejected to raise my hand for the third time, they expelled me from all schools. I was not aware of the fact that my father could have been shot – back then my pride was more important to me than imminent danger. Then libera-tion came and we were all exhilarated. One day the school manager told me: Listen, Buić girl, you are not registered with the Young Socialist League of Yugoslavia. I asked her: Is it voluntary? She replied: Of course! Then I said: I am your only opportunity to prove it then. And I was expelled again from all schools and came to Dubrovnik. I came with a different wind, from a different town and a more open mentality. It was prob-ably evident in my approach and it resulted in my success in school. My incomplete education was always supplemented

Strukturalni triptih, 1965., tapiserija

Structural Triptych, 1965, tapestry

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49. Venecijanski bijenale, Venecija, Italija, 2001.

49th Venice Biennial, Venice, Italy, 2001

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velikih redatelja, počevši od Gavelle do njegovih učenika – Spaića, Škiljana, Radojevića, Violića, Para itd. Doba avangarde i u likovnoj umjetnosti i arhitekturi, osobito se to odnosilo na grupu Exat 51, koja je svojom integrativnom misli sigurno privukla i Vašu pažnju. ¶ jagoda buić — Nije samo privukla pažnju, nego sam bila i dio tih događanja. Ne mogu reći da sam sudjelovala u brainstormu kad su Radić i Richter lomili koplja

by something new I would bring to the environment I arrived in. I came to Dubrovnik from Split, to Vienna from Rome, which was the centre of activities in the 1950s.ORIS — It was a golden age. In 1951 Fellini made I Vitelloni and he made La Strada in 1953. ¶ jagoda buić — That’s right. I have seen Fellini in cafes. Therefore, I brought this new wind to Vienna with me.

diskutirajući najopasnije i najuzvišenije probleme suvremene arhitekture i filozofije, s Bernardijem i Kristlom. Svim tim raz-govorima bila sam prisutna više kao slušatelj i maskota. Cijeli taj Zagreb kasnih 50-ih i 60-ih bio je čista sreća. To je bilo kristaliziranje jedne kulturne sredine koja je procvala poslije Drugog svjetskog rata na najbolji mogući način. Ne zato što je bila na nivou čitave Europe, već zato što je po svojoj solidnosti

ORIS — Was this milieu in Vienna stimulating for you when you were a student? Back then there were basement theatres, so-called Kellertheater, and the Burgtheater was still rather dusty – only in the 1980s, when Claus Peymann arrived, theatre became free and avant-garde and modern. ¶ jagoda buić — Friedrich Gulda, a world-famous pianist, used to play every night in a small club called Strohkoffer.

Ranjeni golub II., 1983., tapiserija,

detalj

Wounded Dove II, 1983, tapestry,

detail

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Crveni volumeni, 1980., tapiserija

Red Volumes, 1980, tapestry

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i klasičnoj naobrazbi, po ljudima koji su bili izuzetno pametni, kao što su Richter, Bernardi, Radić i to društvo, bila na vrhu. Isto se događalo u teatru, djelovanje ove grupe redatelja koje ste spomenuli. Dakle, ja sam proizvod tog Zagreba. Naravno, imala sam izuzetnu sreću da u tome sudjelujem kao đak i suradnik.ORIS — I muza. ¶ jagoda buić — Kadikad.ORIS — Neka vrsta moderne Cvijete Zuzorić. ¶ jagoda buić — Zamislite, skoro imate pravo, mene su u gimnaziji u Dubrovniku zvali Cvijeta. Dakle, na našoj Akademiji za primi-jenjenu umjetnost profesori su bili Radovani, Richter, Branka Hegedušić, Tomašević. To je jedna ekipa koja bi svugdje na svijetu bila prvorazredna. Bili smo sjajni entuzijasti, krasni studenti koji su kasarnu, sadašnje Klovićeve dvore, pretvorili u našu akademiju. Potreban je veliki entuzijazam da se bace vojni kreveti sa svim njihovim stanarima, da se oliče zidovi kasarne i da tu zaživi jedna sjajna škola. Nikada neću shvatiti zašto se to ukinulo. Osim što su nam profesori bili izvanredni, naša studentska ekipa bila je odlična: Riba Lončarić, Lipovac, Bourek. I na tom nivou bili su manje-više svi; Jakić, Pejaković. Ta se akademija poslije dvije godine ukinula. Nikada nismo pre-žalili i shvatili zašto. Nakon toga sam otišla u Beč.ORIS — Što mislite zašto se ukinula? S takvim ljudima? Politički razlog? ¶ jagoda buić — Prije bih rekla da je razlog bio nerazumijevanje. Onu drugu, likovnu akademiju vodili su ovi veliki privilegirani državni umjetnici, a naša sredina nije bila

dovoljno kultivirana i nisu vidjeli svrhu akademije za primije-njene umjetnosti. Postojala je zanatska škola, obrtnička škola u svim gradovima. Prema tome nije još bilo potrebe za nama sa strane industrije.ORIS — Sva ta avangardna kretanja zapravo su bila kretanja unatoč. Jer ipak je to bilo u okviru jednog sistema s kojim ta kretanja nisu bila u skladu. ¶ jagoda buić — Išlo se uzvodno, jer ako ideš nizvodno to je kao da nisi išao. A sve ideologije, misli i velike aktivnosti išle su samo uz otpor, jer se tada razvi-jala nužna energija da nešto postane i intelektualno i stvarno, a ne da ostane samo na razini pragmatičnog življenja. Vratila sam se sa završenom akademijom iz Beča i nije mi palo na pamet da mogu dobiti namještenje, atelje. Tako da sam ušla u teatar i tu našla svoj predivni svijet. Zamislite, sve to nije bilo stvarno, nego je sve bilo izmišljotina.

ORIS — Strohkoffer was the meeting place for the avant-garde. ¶ jagoda buić — Yes, we used to go to Strohkoffer every evening. I also used to visit concerts where Karajan and Furtwängler, in their epic competition, played the same rep-ertoire over the course of fifteen days. All my colleagues came with sheet music, but not me, I behaved in the manner that is typical of those from the city of Split, and arrived without scores. One evening I had only one schilling in my pocket and I had to choose between eating Gulaschsuppe and going to the Brahms-Saal. At that time the bass of the young Čangalović resonated through this venue that has the best acoustics in Vienna. This was the time of real education!ORIS — Let’s go back to the tapestry. What is your posi-tion on the gender definition of tapestry in the sense that it, according to its softness and suppleness, represents a female element? The tradition says that Ariadne’s thread saves Theseus, Penelope weaves and covers her bed, Parcae weaves destiny, etc. Is this woman’s predetermination for the art of tapestry close to you? ¶ jagoda buić — There is no doubt that some professions are associated with females. There are continuations that are linked to women’s destiny and it is no wonder that weaving, which was connected with the fireplace, had its continuation that also belongs to women’s destiny.ORIS — In the 1950s and 1960s Zagreb had a lively avant-garde scene – in the theatre and other arts. The year of 1960 saw the beginning of a trend towards contemporary adap-tations of classical antiquity plays, costumes, stage design and direction. It was the age of great directors, beginning with Gavella and his students: Spaić, Škiljan, Radojević, Violić, Paar, etc. The age of the avant-garde in art and architecture was especially connected with the group Exat 51, which must have caught your attention also with their integrative ideas. ¶ jagoda buić — It did more than just catch my attention; I was a part of those events. I cannot say that I participated in Radić and Richter’s heated discussions with Bernardi, Kristl… on most dangerous and most sublime problems of modern architecture and philosophy. I was involved in those discus-sions more as a listener and the mascot. I was so lucky to have lived in Zagreb in the late 1950s and 1960s. A cultural environment that was flourishing after the Second World War was represented by the best. Not because it was on the same level as the whole of Europe, but because it was on top – judging by its classical and quality education and extremely smart individuals, such as Richter, Bernardi, Radić and others. This was the same in the theatre – activities of the group of directors you have mentioned. I was thus a

product of such Zagreb; of course, I was very fortunate to participate in this life as a student and an associate.ORIS — And the muse. ¶ jagoda buić — Sometimes.ORIS — A kind of contemporary Cvijeta Zuzorić. ¶ jagoda buić — You are almost right – I used to be called Cvijeta in the Gymnasium of Dubrovnik. At our Academy of Applied Arts, Radovani, Richter, Branka Hegedušić, Tomašević… were our professors. It was a team that would be first-class any-where in the world. We were great enthusiasts, students that turned the barracks, now the Klovićevi dvori Gallery, into our Academy. It takes immense enthusiasm to throw out military beds with all its tenants, to paint the walls of the barracks and create an exceptional school. I will never understand why it was closed down. We had extraordinary professors and made a great student team as well: Riba Lončarić, Lipovac, Bourek.

Ne može se jednim likovnim sredstvom prezentirati neki drugi likovni događaj, a to znači da nešto što je tkano ne može biti prezentirano slikom A means of art cannot be used to present another art form, which means that something that is woven cannot be presented by painting

Žar-ptica – homage Stravinskom, 1977., tapiserija

Firebird – hommage to Stravinsky, 1977, tapestry

(jb)


ORIS — Da, ali izmišljotina zapravo istinitija od života. ¶ jagoda buić — Jasno. Kada je Šerbedžija ovog ljeta govo-rio Shakespeareov To be, or not to be, smatrala sam kako je u tih 36 godina, otkad ga je Rade zadnji put izgovorio na Lovri-jencu, taj izričaj sazrio i postao istinitiji. Shakespeare bi bio jako zadovoljan kad bi ga čuo, jer je u tom izgovorenom genijalnom monologu bilo sadržano 36 godina saznanja i iskustva koje je on nama poklonio.ORIS — Poznata je Vaša sklonost i ljubav prema umjetnicima 70-ih i 80-ih godina. ¶ jagoda buić — To su recimo Džamo-nja, Murtić, Ružić, Gabrijel Stupica, Peđa Milosavljević, Bakić, Bernik, Lubarda. Usudila bih se reći da je Ružić među njima bio najveći skulptorski talent. Ružić je nosio tako iskonsku vjeru u to što je skulptura, zašto i od čega je skulptura. Ja sam htjela pokazati svijetu što smo mi bili 80-ih godina. Samo jedna zemlja nam je možda mogla konkurirati, a to je bila Španjolska, s Chillidom i Tàpiesom.ORIS — Vaš stav prema suvremenim zbivanjima u umjetno-sti nije pretjerano pozitivan. ¶ jagoda buić — Ja mislim da je kozmički naboj, taj fenomen umjetnosti, konstantan. Taj naboj, koji se zove umjetnost, postoji. Ona nalazi svoj put kao

rijeka ponornica; negdje teče i postoji. Mi je naravno tamo ne tražimo jer nije na glavnim putovima, ali ne možemo reći da umjetnosti više nema.ORIS — I na splitskom i na dubrovačkom festivalu radili ste predstave u povijesnim ambijentima. Tražili ste odgovor na izazov kazališta na otvorenom i ugroženu egzistenciju ljud-skog tijela u autentičnom i monumentalnom arhitektonskom prostoru, ako Vas mogu citirati. ¶ jagoda buić — Trebalo se nametnuti otvorenoj okolini, odnosno arhitekturi koja je vrlo često i postala pozornica zato što je snažna i monumentalna. To su obično rimska arhitektura i ponešto grčke. A nekad, naravno, i priroda. Sve troje je vrlo snažno i stavlja čovjekovo tijelo u veliku kušnju. Dakle, glumcu treba pomoći. Vrlo mlada sam se našla u toj situaciji sa splitskim Peristilom, a zatim i na Dubrovačkim ljetnim igrama. Potpuno je različita kostimogra-fija na otvorenom od kostimografije na zatvorenom. Kosti-mografija na zatvorenom dio je jedne čarolije, dio, nazovimo, nekakve šminke. Kostimografija na otvorenom traži jedan vrlo jasan i čist pristup. Kostim mora biti adekvatan, mora izdržati konkurenciju monumentalne arhitekture. Osim što pristaje uz arhitekturu mora joj se i suprotstavljati. Dakle, glumcu treba

More or less, all of the students were on the same level. Jakić, Pejaković. After two years, the Academy was closed down. We have never gotten over this fact or understood why it was done. Afterwards, I went to Vienna.ORIS — Why do you think it was closed down when it had such individuals? Was this decision politically motivated? ¶ jagoda buić — I’d rather say it was because there was no understanding. The other Academy, the Academy of Fine Arts, was managed by privileged state artists and our environment was not cultured enough to understand the purpose of the Academy of Applied Arts. Every town had a vocational school, a school of crafts. From the viewpoint of the industry, there-fore, there was no need for us.ORIS — All these avant-garde movements were actually activities undertaken in spite of something – they existed within a system they were not in accord with. ¶ jagoda buić — People swam against the tide back then because anything else would have seemed like nothing at all. All the ideologies could only have been developed, thoughts could only have been expressed and activities could only have been carried out with resistance because back then the necessary energy was generated to make something intellectual and real, and not to keep it merely pragmatic. Having graduated from the Academy in Vienna, I came back and never thought about taking up a position or a studio. I came to the theatre and found my beautiful world there. Fancy that – it was not real, but a lie.ORIS — Yes, but a lie more true than the life itself. ¶ jagoda buić — Of course. When Šerbedžija recited Shakespeare’s To be, or not to be this summer, I felt as if the performance had matured and become more true over the course of thirty-six years since the last time he delivered it at Fort Lovrijenac. Shakespeare would have been very satisfied because this bril-liantly recited monologue was enriched with thirty-six years of knowledge and experience Šerbedžija so generously gave us.ORIS — Your affinity and love for the artists of the 1970s and 1980s is well known. ¶ jagoda buić — Yes, There were Džamonja, Murtić, Ružić, Gabrijel Stupica, Peđa Milosavljević, Bakić, Bernik, Lubarda. I dare say Ružić had the greatest talent for sculpture – he had such a genuine idea of what sculpture is, why it is made, and what it is made of. I wanted to show to the world what we were in the 1980s. There was only one country that could have competed with us – it was Spain, with Chillida and Tàpies.ORIS — Your attitude towards contemporary movements in art is not too positive. ¶ jagoda buić — I think that this cos-mic energy, this phenomenon of art is constant. This energy,

called art, really exists. It finds its way as a subterranean river – it flows and exists somewhere. Naturally, we do not look for it there because it is not on the main road, but we cannot say that there is no art.ORIS — You did plays in a historical ambience at the Split Summer Festival and Dubrovnik Summer Festival. If I may quote you, you were looking for: the answer to the challenge of the theatre in the open and the endangered existence of the human body in an authentic and monumental architec-tural space. ¶ jagoda buić — It was necessary to impose your concept upon the open environment or the architecture that has, in most cases, become a stage because it is strong and monumental. Usually it is Roman architecture, sometimes Greek. Sometimes, of course, it is nature as well. All three are very strong and put the human body to a test. The actor needs to be helped. I was very young when I was creating stage design in Peristil Square in Split, then also at the Dubrovnik Summer Festival. Costume design is completely different in the open from the one in closed space. Costume design in closed space is part of the magic, a make-up, so to speak. Costume design in the open requires a clear and pure approach. The costume has

Skica, 1984.

Sketch, 1984

(jb)

Skica, 1986.

Sketch, 1986

(jb)


Čovjek se ne može odvojiti od onoga što se oko njega događa i što ga dira, ne mogu ga ne dirnuti te ruke koje se pružaju iz vode koja tako indiferentno preko njih prelazi It is not possible to distance your-self from the events around you; they have to affect you. You cannot remain unaffected by the scenes of hands reaching out of water that overwhelms them so callously

to be appropriate and endure the competition from monumen-tal architecture. It has to fit architecture, but also to contrast it. The actor needs help in a way that he makes a sharp contrast with the environment, but then again that he does not blend in with the environment that is too strong. This was a very specific challenge for me and I hope that I succeeded in most cases. You have to forget about details, stick to the line of the costume of the time, but also create the impression that the volume of the body is larger than it really is.ORIS — Does the costume affect the movement of the actor on stage? Costumes have to be adapted to the principle of directing or even be part of directing. ¶ jagoda buić — I was a good collaborator to directors because I worked in par-allel with them. Stage movement is, naturally, conditioned by the costume and vice versa. The cooperation was rarely as good as it could have been, but I was not easily confused because – especially at the time when I worked a lot on the outdoor scenes – I was full of youthful enthusiasm and very stubborn, the qualities I still possess.

ORIS — This stubbornness of yours, as you have mentioned, surely motivates your strong desire to bring things to an end. You started with costume design, then continued with stage design and then later, in Richard iii, the play you directed in 1997, you combined the three components. ¶ jagoda buić — Richard iii was a dream come true. I did it for a great actor and a friend of mine – Predrag Vušović. I was inspired by my deep desire for total design. I was raised with the idea that total design was the final goal of all of our artistic and applicable aspirations. Everyone was very happy and satisfied except for the government. They said that I used the charac-ter of Richard iii to allude to President Tuđman, and the play was closed down after four performances. Richard iii is maybe Shakespeare’s most powerful text. It is set in the 14th century and includes the battles and other attractive scenes. I mostly feel inclined towards the Late Middle Ages, the beginning of the Renaissance. I managed to do my own total design and it was exactly with Richard iii. I made an entrance, and achieved something that satisfied me as well.

pomoći na način da ga se suprotstavi okolini, a ne utopi u oko-lini koja je presnažna. To je meni bio jedan specifičan izazov i nadam se da sam u njemu u većini slučajeva uspjela. Tu treba zaboraviti svaki detalj. Treba se držati linije kostima onoga vremena, ali treba dati jedan osjećaj da je volumen toga tijela veći nego što ustvari jest.ORIS — Uvjetuje li kostim kao takav na neki način i kretanje glumca na pozornici? On sigurno mora biti u skladu sa samom režijom, odnosno biti čak i dio te režije. ¶ jagoda buić — Ja sam bila dobar suradnik redateljima, zato što sam radila para-lelno s njima. Jasno je da je scenski pokret uvjetovan kostimom i obrnuto. Tu je rijetko dolazilo do suradnje kakva je mogla biti. Nisam se dala time zbuniti, pogotovo jer je mene u to vrijeme kad sam puno radila na vanjskim scenama nosio mladenački entuzijazam i tvrdoglavost koji me krase još uvijek.ORIS — Ta Vaša, kao što kažete, tvrdoglavost, sigurno uzrokuje Vašu želju da stvari dovedete do kraja. Tako ste počeli s kostimografijom, pa ste došli do scenografije, da bi onda već nešto kasnije u Richardu iii. 1997. godine sve te tri

Projekt laguna, Venecija, Italija,

2008.

Project Lagoon, Venezia, Italy,

2008

(jb)

Sunce, pijesak, zvuk, 1983., video

Sun, Sand, Sound, 1983, video

(jb)


Tonči Petrasov Marović, Antigona,

kraljica u Tebi, Hrvatsko narodno kazalište u

Splitu, redatelj Vlatko Perković, scenografija

i kostimografija Jagoda Buić, 1981.

Tonči Petrasov Marović, Antigone, the Queen

of Thebes, Croatian National Theatre

in Split, directed by Vlatko Perković, set

and costume design by Jagoda Buić, 1981

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ORIS — Is stage design only the background or an actor in a play? ¶ jagoda buić — Definitely an actor. The stage design of the play performed in Split, Antigone, the Queen of Thebes, written by Tonči Petrasov Marović, consisted of five unfruitful elements that had a new layout in each scene. I projected a sky full of variously shaped clouds. Thus the clouds came alive and gave life to this moveable sculpture that created space.ORIS — What was the connection between the scene in the play Richard iii and the costumes? ¶ jagoda buić — You felt as if you had been leaving a medieval miniature, like the ones in incunabula: completely modernised and simplified. I just can’t stand when a text that is written for a certain period is transported into a different period because this has become a trend. If you do not dress Oedipus in jeans, you are not mod-ern. What Oedipus gets with these jeans and what the jeans get with Oedipus – I do not know. Therefore, I think that this forceful insistence on a period that a text does not refer to takes away, from the text, everything that this time, mental-ity and morality provide as the meaning of the action itself.ORIS — What was the concept of directing the play Richard iii? ¶ jagoda buić — I did not deal with the concept; I was focused on Shakespeare. I felt sorry for every line I had to

William Shakespeare, Rikard III.,Gradsko dramsko kazalište Gavella, Zagreb, režija, scenografija i kostimografija Jagoda Buić, 1997.

William Shakespeare, Richard III, Gavella Drama Theatre, Zagreb, direction, set and costume design Jagoda Buić, 1997

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Modeli kostima za Rikarda III.

Mock-ups of costumes for Richard III

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Redateljske skice za

Rikarda III.

Director’s sketches for

Richard III

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komponente ujedinili. ¶ jagoda buić — Richard iii. bio je vrh mojih snova. Radila sam ga zbog jednog velikog glumca i prijatelja, Predraga Vušovića. Bila sam ponukana svojom dav-nom željom za total-dizajnom. Odgojena sam u smislu da je total-dizajn konačni cilj svih naših primijenjenoumjetničkih stremljenja. Svi su bili jako sretni i zadovoljni, osim režima. Režim je rekao da sam ja Rikardom iii. aludirala na lik predsjed-nika Tuđmana te je skinut nakon 4 predstave. Rikard iii. možda je najjači Shakespeareov tekst. Radi se o 14. stoljeću. Ima bitaka i svega onoga što je scenski neodoljivo. Ja tendiram najviše tom kasnom srednjem vijeku, početku renesanse. Dospjela sam do toga da napravim svoj total-dizajn i to baš s Rikardom iii. Nisam ušla kroz mala vrata, već velika. I napravila nešto što je i mene zadovoljilo.ORIS — Scenografija kao pozadina ili kao akter predstave? ¶ jagoda buić — Svakako akter. Scenografija splitske pred-stave Antigona, kraljica u Tebi Tončija Petrasova Marovića sastojala se od 5 šturih i jednostavnih elemenata koji u svakoj sceni dobivaju novi raspored. Na te šture elemente projicirala sam nebo puno raznoraznih oblaka. Ti su oblaci tako zaživjeli sami i davali život toj pomičnoj skulpturi koja je stvarala prostor.ORIS — Kako je ta scenografija kod Rikarda iii. korespondirala s kostimima? ¶ jagoda buić — Imali ste dojam da izlazite iz jedne srednjovjekovne minijature. To su one minijature koje su na inkunabulama, potpuno modernizirane i pojednostav-ljene. Apsolutno ne podnosim kada se po sadašnjoj modi tekst

Nakon moje avanture u tapiseriji i tkanju prešla sam u novi medij – papir. Papir je pametan, podatan, svejedno je li kutija od ambalaže ili najfiniji japanski papir After my adventure with the tapestry and weaving, I found a new medium – paper. Paper is smart and supple, whether it is just a box or the finest Japanese paper

Izložba Carta Canta 2,

Palača Sponza, Dubrovnik,

Hrvatska, 2013.

Carta Canta 2 exhibition,

Sponza Palace, Dubrovnik,

Croatia, 2013

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koji je pisan za jedno vrijeme prenese u drugo vrijeme. Ako ne staviš Edipa u traperice nisi moderan. E sad što Edip dobiva s trapericama i što traperice dobivaju s Edipom, ja ne znam. Prema tome smatram da nasilno izguravanje teksta iz vremena na koje se odnosi oduzima tekstu sve ono što mu to vrijeme, mentalitet i moral daju kao smisao same radnje.ORIS — Koji je bio Vaš redateljski koncept kod Richarda iii.? ¶ jagoda buić — Nisam se bavila konceptom, bavila sam se Shakespeareom. Bilo mi je žao svake crte koju smo morali brisati iz tekstova triju kraljica gdje se vidi utjecaj Seneke na Shakespearea. Ali držala sam se toga da gledatelj ne može gledati predstavu duže od dva sata. Bilo mi je je također jako stalo do ritma predstave. Tako se kroz ritam očitovala ta izvje-sna modernost. Intenzitet predstave odgovarao je izvjesnom intenzitetu življenja. Često sam pomislila da sam rođena da budem redatelj. Naravno da ja to nisam tražila, a da sam i tra-žila ne bi mi dali. U moje vrijeme trebao si imati barem naočale i bradu da bi te shvatili ozbiljno. Radila sam sa sjajnim redate-ljima: Tanhoferom, Gavellom, Parom, Spaićem, Radojevićem, Violićem – velika plejada. Više sam naučila na njihovim pro-bama nego da sam pohađala dvije akademije.ORIS — Koje su kostimografkinje eventualno utjecale na Vaš rad? ¶ jagoda buić — Imala sam primjer dviju sjajnih kosti-mografkinja. Jedna je bila Inga Kostinčer, a druga moja prijateljica Boža Košak, Mariborčanka u Rimu. Ona nije bila kostimografki-nja već Picasso mode. Ali nije ništa htjela potpisati jer je smatrala da to nije elegantno. Zato njezin rad danas nije poznat, a nadam se da ću stići organizirati njezinu izložbu u Sloveniji, Hrvatskoj ili Trstu, gdje je rođena. Odmah nakon moje diplomske nagrade u Beču 1954. Boža i ja dobile smo nagradu na međunarodnom

natječaju Moda u Rimu. Dok su drugi pravili varijante na rimski kostim, Božini prijedlozi bili su da se na široke suknje tiskaju Pira-nesijevi motivi iz serije Vedute di Roma. Ja sam napravila jednu haljinu koja se zvala Fontana di Trevi, sastavljenu od perlica koje su u kaskadama padale s te večernje haljine. A na drugoj je oko čitave široke suknje bio tiskan Koloseum.ORIS — Vi ste se isto tako bavili filmskom kostimografijom, a vrhunac toga je bio u filmu Ante Babaje Carevo novo ruho. Kad ste spomenuli srednjovjekovne minijature – to je vjero-jatno bila i inspiracija za taj film. ¶ jagoda buić — Za Carevo novo ruho ustanovljena je nagrada za kostimografiju na film-skom festivalu u Puli. Radila sam s velikim entuzijazmom i postigla da sve bude na bijeloj pozadini. I pod je bio bijel tako da horizonta nije bilo.ORIS — Kakvo je Vaše iskustvo s Peristilom kao pozornicom? ¶ jagoda buić — Scenu i kostime radila sam u Nabuccu kada nismo imali više novaca nego da pjevačima dadem u ruke po jednu sedmokraku židovsku menoru. Kako su bila dva zbora, bilo je 120 svijećnjaka na Peristilu i ništa drugo. To je bila moja najljepša scenografija. Dakle glazba, Peristil i vatra.ORIS — Možete li nešto reći o razlici između kazališne i filmske kostimografije? ¶ jagoda buić — Kazališna i film-ska kostimografija podjednako su različite kao film i kazalište. Teatar je jedna pametna laž, a film je jedna lažna istina. Prema tome, u filmu se treba jako čuvati svega što bi moglo podsje-ćati na stilizaciju teatarskog tipa.

delete from the texts of the three queens that show the influ-ence of Seneca on Shakespeare. But I followed the principle according to which the audience cannot sit through the play for more than two hours. I also took care of the rhythm of the play. The rhythm expressed the modernity. The intensity of the play was in accord with the specific intensity of living. I often thought that I had been born to be a director. I did not ask for it, of course, and if I had asked, I would not have been given the opportunity. At the time, you had to have glasses and a beard to be taken seriously. I worked with excellent directors: Tanhofer, Gavella, Paro, Spaić, Radojević, Violić… all great directors. I learnt more by being present at their rehearsals than I would have learnt if I had graduated from two academies.ORIS — What costume designers influenced your work? ¶ jagoda buić — There were two great costume designers back then. One was Inga Kostinčer and the other my friend Boža Košak, who came from Maribor but lived in Rome. She was not a costume designer, but a Picasso of fashion. But she did not want to sign anything because she thought it was inelegant. Her work is thus not known today and I hope I will manage to organise an exhibition of her works in Slovenia, Croatia or in Trieste, where she was born. Immediately after I had received the award for my diploma work in Vienna, Boža and I were presented with the award at the international competition – Fashion in Rome. While other competitors did variations of the Roman costume, Boža’s idea was to print Piranesi’s motifs from the series Vedute di Roma on wide

skirts. I made a dress that was called Fontana di Trevi and was made of beads that cascaded down the evening dress. The Colosseum was printed around the whole edge of the wide skirt of the other dress.ORIS — You also did film costume design, the best of which can be seen in the film The Emperor’s New Clothes directed by Ante Babaja. Medieval miniatures that you have mentioned probably inspired the film. ¶ jagoda buić — The Costume Design Award was founded precisely for the filmThe Emperor’s New Clothes at the Pula Film Festival. I was very enthusiastic and managed to have everything on the white background. The floor was also white so there was no horizon.ORIS — What is your experience with Peristil Square as a stage? ¶ jagoda buić — I designed the scene and the cos-tumes for the opera Nabucco at the time when we did not have money – I could only have given a seven-branched Jewish menorah to each singer. Since there were two choirs, there were one hundred and twenty candlesticks in Peristil and nothing else. It was the most beautiful stage design– music, Peristil and the fire.ORIS — Can you tell us something about the difference between the theatre and film costume design? ¶ jagoda buić — Theatre and film costume design are as different as film and theatre. Theatre is a smart lie, and film is the fake truth. Therefore, everything that could evoke theatrical styli-zation should be avoided in the film.

Diptih, 2012., kolaž

Diptych, 2012, collage

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Kabooki I, Kabooki II,

2012., kolaž

Kabooki I, Kabooki II,

2012, collage

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Carta Magna, 2013., kolaž

Carta Magna, 2013, collage

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Forme na vjetru i vodi,

1973., tapiserija

Forms on Wind and Water,

1973, tapestry

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Documents

Uranjanje u ishodište mita Immersion Into the Origin …oris.hr/files/pdf/zastita/211/Oris 96_Jagoda Buic.pdfzemlji i ti će ga korijeni oformiti. Međutim, on će se nekim dru -