by Amanda Diaz and Magali Krischke October 1978

Varna Bambirra is a Brazilian-born researcher. After the coupd'etat overthrowing the government of Joao Gulart in Brazil,Vania went to live in Chile, where she became involved ininteresting and important academic and political activities.She worked for several years at CESO (Centre for SocialStudies), affiliated with the University of Chile. In that in-stitution, she carried out important research, writing severalarticles on women in the journal Punto Final. Other articlesrelated to Latin America were written by Vania under thepseudonym Clea Silva. Among her works, which form a strongcontribution to the study of dependency in Latin America,the following books can be cited: La Revolucion Cubarza:une reinterpretation; (Mexico); El Capitalism° DependienteLatino American° (Siglo XXI, Mexico: 1974); Teoria de laDcpendencia. Una anticritica (Ediciones Era, Mexico: 1978).

At present, Vania lives and works in Mexico (like many otherresearchers from Latin America, she has had to request politicalasylum after the Chilean coup d'etat in 1973) at the UniversidadAutOnoma de Mexic6, Departamento de Economia.

Two Thirds: We would like to focus our conversation onthe situation of women over the last ten or fifteen years, buthefore that, Vania, we would like you to give us an idea ofyour own work and experience in the field of Latin AmericanWomen's Studies.Vania Bambirra: I acquired my first experience in Belo

lion te, Minas Gerais, in Brazil, while I was a student, withthe "favelados" movement, which at that time had a tremen-dous political importance. As you know, the "favelados"are shanty town inhabitants. I was working with both menand women, and the women showed a very great militantattitude. My second experience was with women, in the or-ganifation of the first Peasant League in Tres Marias, MinasGa.aiS. Wring my stay in Chile, had very few contactswith poptilat sectors; I dealt mainly with University people.I ‘l ii-tite a eutiple of articles on the situation of the Chilean

woman from a Marxist point of view, which were publishedin the magazine Punto Final.

TT: Do you think we can talk about the situation of womenin Latin America in general, or should we focus on the prob-lems of women in each country in particular?V.B.: I would tackle the problem from an entirely differentangle. One can't deal with women's issues in general. I alwaystry to specify class distinctions when I deal with the situationof women. That is the crucial distinction. There are as manycategories of women as there are social classes; the situationof the bourgeois woman is different from that of the peasantor working-class woman. "Women in general" do not exist.It is easy to see that the working-class woman is subject to atwo-fold exploitation, as a worker and as a woman. She workstwo shifts; one at the factory and one at home.

TT: Maybe our point was not clearly made. When we askedyou if it was possible to talk about the situation of womenin Latin America, we were wondering if it would be better toconcentrate on the situation of women in a specific country,or to make specific distinctions for each country within ageneral framework, due to the different cultural variableswhich exist in each place.

V.B.: I believe that the basic problems of the working classwoman are the same, whether in Argentina, Brazil or Mexico.This also applies to the petit bourgeois and bourgeois women.Perhaps one can say that the Chilean woman is more politic-ally conscious, has a greater militant tradition than the Brazil-ian woman, and that this is due to a cultural difference. Onthe other hand, I think that the Chilean woman is not as ad-vanced as the Argentine woman; Chile has not reached thedegree of technological development of Argentina, and thisreflects in some ways on women's attitudes. In spite of allthis, I believe we should take Latin America as a unit; thecommon problems are the most relevant, in spite of the dif-ferences which exist.

3T: What are the differences and sumuliniues in the situationof women of the different social classes in Latin America''V.B to the first place, a general similarity; the discrimin-

ii against women as such. Women tend to he subordinat-dependent, not only in economic aspects but also in

notional and political ones. You can find this subordin-ation. this dependence, this discrimination not only in theworking class woman, but also in the petit bourgeois andeven in the bourgeois woman. It is a general attitude. Never-theless, this similarity is not important: I don't consider my-self a feminist.

.IT: In spite of recognizing that women are discriminatedagainst, and subordinated, you say that you're not a femin-ist. What do you mean by that?V.B.: What I mean is that the subordination, the discrimin-ation, cannot be overcome by a 'woman's only' struggle,which in some cases becomes an anti-male movement, whichis absurd. Women should be struggling against the capitalistsystem which oppresses them, and that struggle should beled by the vanguard of society, the working class. In this con-text, woman's liberation concerns both men and women, andcan only be achieved in a superior economic system, thefirst step of which is socialism. The situation of women inSocialist countries is much more favourable, but full liber-ation still has not been achieved. It is only in a Communistsociety that this full liberation will take place, with the in-dustrialization of domestic economy. This implies an enor-mous development of the productive forces, which demandsan urban and architectural revolution to enable domesticwork to be undertaken in large units. Without this it is im-possible to imagine the total liberation of women.

IT: Do you consider the anti-male aspect of the feministmovement to be a first approximation, a transitory stage inthe struggle?V.B.: 1 don't know if it is a transitory stage or not—I havemy doubts. I think it depends can the sector of the move-ment- there are sectors of the feminist movement with suchgreat deformations that thy.may never advance towardshigher forms of organization. I must also stress that thebourgeoisie tries to use the movement towards its own ends.

Tr: What about sonic concrete situations faced by women.For instance, how can one make the man share domestic re-sponsibilities and also be conscious of his own responsibilityat home?

V.B.: I think that it is very important to make large popularsectors conscious of the limitations of male chauvinism, of-machismo", and its reactionary content. The political plat-fotins of revolutionary parties, movements and organizationsshould include women's rights as part of their program ofthe people's struggle in general, and they should actively in-corporate women in their movements.

TT: Do you think there have been changes in the situation ofdifferent social classes in Latin America over these

but ten Veals?V.B.: Yes, at least in some aspects, because Latin America hasdeveloped in the last ten years. Several countries have becomemore industrialized. In spite of this progress, we have a criticalsituation. The development of the productive apparatus broughtabout a greater involvement of women in productive life. I'mnot 'so sure this happened to'working class women, but the per-Centage of petit bourgeois'Women in the Universities has in-creased, and this is important. Nevertheless, although there isa greater feminine presence in` several sectors, it is still an ex-ception if one looks at Latin American politics in general. Insome areas their participation is really limited; such is the caseof cultural activities in general. There are not many women

actively prodtit:tsig anti Writing in the held or social sciences,for an instance.TT: Ott what do you base this opinion?V.B.: it has to do with women's general situation, with theirsubordinate position in society. It is very difficult for a wo-man to acquire her own identity, from a cultural, profession-al or any other point of view. It all has to do with the back-ward "machista" tradition of our peoples. Woman have tomake a double effort to overcome the discriminatory bar-riers which exist against her. All other things being equal, awoman always loses out to a man, because competition tendsto relegate her to second place.

TT: You said before that women—above all working classwomen—were exploited and discriminated against. If we ac-cept now that there is a double exploitation in a male dominat-ed society, how can we accept that men are going to give wo-men their liberation?V.B.: I think that women should he twice as revolutionary,precisely because they are twice exploited. They have doublereasons to struggle against the system. It is not men who ex-ploit women, it is the system of exploitation of the dominatedclasses by the dominant class which affects the oppressed wo-men on a double count. That is why the working class andpeasant woman, and even large sectors of the petit bourgeoisie,can have this revolutionary perspective which the bourgeoiswoman lacks. The bourgeois woman transfers the substanceof her exploitation to other women, such as her servants. Ifshe considers herself to be exploited by the system, it is onlyin the sense of being discriminated against as a woman. Sheis not subjected to a double exploitation, and in this sense,the bourgeois woman and the working class woman areenemies. This is why I said before that the whole questionshould be stated in terms of class relations. The working classwoman cannot join forces with the bourgeois woman, butshe can join forces with her mate, with her fellow workers,with the people of her class. This is the reason why 1 do notconsider myself a feminist, in the same way as DomitilaBarrios Chungara, Secretary General of the Housewives'Committee of the Siglo XX mine in Bolivia, doesn't considerherself a feminist, and her answer to the question is based onintuition. Moema Viezzer wrote a book about Domitila'sexperiences, titled "If you let me speak" ("Si me permitenhablar", Ed. SigloXXI, Mexico.) Why does she say she is nota feminist? Because she is a woman of the mines, strugglingside by side with the miners, against dictatorship and oppres-sion in her country.

TT: The bourgeois and petit bourgeois women in LatinAmerica transfer exploitation to the domestic servant--some-thing which the petit bourgeois woman in developed capital-ist countries can no longer do in the same way. But thereare limits to this transfer, as these women still have to carefor the children and supervise domestic work in general.

V.B.: The feminine sector of our society which is most over-exploited, whose function is even pre-capitalist and servile intwine, is that of the domestic servant. I know that in thedeveloped capitalist countries this no longer happens, or atleast, it does not happen with the same intensity, but in oursociety, bourgeois and petit bourgeois women exploit domesticservice in the most heartless and savage manner. The domesticservants, daughters of peasants or workers, have no right to aprivate life. Those of peasant extraction have three options;becoming worker-peasants, prostitutes, or domestic servants.Those who choose domestic service do not earn even half ofa minimum working wage. They usually work from 7 in themorning to 10 at night, and have no opportunities of develop-ing a private life. They live in precarious conditions, in atticrooms, isolated; they are not allowed to have children, be-cause if they do they lose their employment. .Abortions are

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cokumon practice, with all the frustrations which this typeof life can bring. They arc treated as serfs, they exist only to

...obey. The petit bourgeois woman in Latin America is themost sinister exploiter that has ever existed.

TT: Isn't the man an accomplice to this woman's exploit-ation of the domestic servant? He also takes advantage of theservant's work.V.B.: Yes, the man is an indirect accomplice of this exploit-ation.

TT: We don't consider this type of struggle as incompatiblewith the struggle of the feminist movement. If women donot participate actively and organize themselves in society,they will be marginated and relegated.V.B.: I can agree with that. I believe that women shouldparticipate and organize themselves as such, but I make adistinction between that and feminism. Let me explainthis further. I believe that it is important. Domitila organizedthe miners' wives; they didn't work in the mines themselves,but they organized themSelves to fight alongside the miners,participating in their strikes in defense of common interests.They were organized as women, struggling side by side withtheir men. They organized a housewives' committee—but itwas a political organization, which included their demandsas women. This also is the way women are organized inSocialist countries. In Cuba, the Federation of Cuban Womendefends the specific interests of women, but the Federationis related to the Party and to the whole social and revolu-tionary process. It is not an isolated, particular struggle, be-cause the main issue is the struggle for socialism and pro-letarian revolution. In this context I cannot imagine a wo-men's movement which turns against men. I find that theenemies are of another kind, and I can't see any advantagein mixing the demands of the working women with those ofthe bourgeois women; they are qualitatively different. Butas long as this remains clear, I have nothing against women'sorganizations.

TT: What changes have you noticed in the situation ofwomen in Latin America?V.B.: It is difficult to generalize; one has to he more specific.For instance, in Chile, during the Unidad Popular period,the number of day care centres increased, and women'sparticipation in all aspects of social and political life increas-ed also. In the past 15 years, there has been a much greaterincorporation of women to social struggle in Brazil, but itstill remains a diffuse participation. Women's journals beginto appear as opposition journals to the dictatorship. Suchis the case of "Nos Mulhers. ", which in my opinion is ex-cellent. The Amnesty Movement is led by women. I don'thave much information about Argentina, but I understandthat there has been an increase in feminine presence insocial struggles.

Ti': What elements have influenced these changes?V.B.: Firstly, the process of cultural, economic and indus-trial development; and secondly, the crisis of dependentcapitalist systems, which has pushed women toward a moreactive participation. Domitila's case, for an instance, showsthat the struggle for survival pushed women to fight. InBrazil, the crisis has led women to organize themselves inpractically all the states. Women are becoming more concern-ed with issues such as democracy, the struggle for socialism,the exploitation of workers, etc. To sum it up, the greatercultural development and the profound crisis of dependentcapitalism is leading sectors which did not participate verymuch to more intense forms of participation.TT: Do you consider the fact that this capitalist crisis allowsfor some participation of the feminist movement as a stepfoi

V.B.: Of course,r,it is very important. One must he careful,though, because the bourgeoisie has also understood this andhas tried to use it to its own advantage. The most importantsectors of the feminist movement in the U.S. are dominatedby the bourgeoisie. This can be seen in the attempt to pitwomen against men, to restrict the character of the move-ment, and to present it as a broader, more political, moreunitarian movement. Even the literature which has come outof the leaders of the feminist movement in recent years istotally wrong. These leaders are bourgeois or petit bourgeoiswomen, who try to use the movement, disfiguring it, depriv-ing it of its revolutionary, socialist content. In general, Imust say that there are important things happening, butone must learn to be selective in one's analysis.

TT: We would like to talk some more about the situation ofthe working woman in Latin America, not only in her roleas a worker's spouse, but as a worker herself. How does shevisualize her work?V.B.: Obviously, she works to supplement her husband'ssalary, but this does not mean that she does not struggle fora general improvement in her working and living conditions.There are many proofs of combative attitudes among work-ing women in Latin America, which have become more pro-nounced in recent years. A new period of ascendent socialstruggles is being outlined today in Latin America, but thosestruggles have been and still are suffocated by the presenceof military dictatorships such as the one which has governedBrazil for the last 14 years. It is difficult for both women andmen to express themselves under those circumstances. Therepressive system in Latin America is very violent. In spiteof this, Chilean women are struggling against the dictator-ship, by means of hunger strikes and protests; they are outin the streets again.

TT: What we notice is that many of the women's protestsare related to their traditional role, in the family, but not somuch to their own specific demands.V.B.: I don't think that this is the case of the Chilean women;they are not protesting for their loved ones alone; theyunderstand the political content of their actions. Their de-mands have a much wider reach, especially in the Chileancase, where three years of Unidad Popular government achiev-ed a massive politicization. Of course, women's rallies areoften related to affective and emotional aspects; we cannotdeny this fact, which has to do with the "feminine" functionand has roots in that strong cultural tradition which relegatesthe woman to a docile, passive, dependent role. This doesnot exclude the fact that many of these rallies show a muchdeeper degree of conscience of women as part of popularsectors.

TT: When a woman goes out to work, she usually does be-cause of her family's needs, and not for her own self-fulfillment. What do you think of that?V.B.: Yes, it is an important aspect, but you must also con-sider that when a young man goes to work in a factory, hedoes not do so because he chose the job. He goes to work inthat factory because he has a very objective need for survival, ,and has no opportunity to develop his potential, to studymore, and to choose what he wants to be in life. The samehappens to a child who begs in the street. Neither the worker,nor the child, nor the woman are fulfilling their existence.Society frustrates and castrates the majority of the people.The woman's problem might he a bit more dramatic, but itis shared by the oppressed sectors in general as the impos-sibility to choose, to develop socially. As we said before, theworking class woman is discriminated against not only be-cause she is a woman, but because she belongs to the work-ing class, and this is important. The petit bourgeois womandoes not need to work to supplement her husband's salary,

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'IrVinagliaMak4 44,

sO"she has a wider margin of choice and can look for analternative which provides personal fulfillment, that is to say,she can'an decide what to contribute - to.society, what professionto take up. The working class woman can't. I insist on thispoill it; the problem is more one of class discrimination thanof discrimination against women in general. The situation insocialist countries is different; if we consider the statisticson wonien professionals in the Soviet Union, they arc im-pressive. If my memory serves me, more than 80% of thedoctors in the USSR are women. It is a sy stem which hasdeveloped in a much more egalitarian fashion, in spite of thefact that the problem is far from being solved, as it dependson a greater general development. In any event, womenthere already have greater possibilities of social participation.

TT: Although a Socialist revolution has already taken placein Cuba, there still are problems there regarding the situationof women. What do you think of the recent law establishingthe division of responsibilities for domestic work betweenmen and women?V.B.: I think it is a very important step toward a solutionfor Cuba, within its material conditions as an underdeveloped.country, still very poor, which has to overcome 400 yearsof backward heritage. We also must not forget that "machismo"exists in Cuba, as it does in other Latin American countries,based on a very strong cultural tradition which even a revo-lution as radical as the Cuban one has not been able to eradi-cate. This fact indicates the need for a profound culturalrevolution.. .and to avoid being idealistic, we must say thatthis profound cultural revolution, this change in mentality,can only come about as the result of material, economic andindustrial development. The changes implied by the new laware very important, but they are only transitory, interme-diate steps. The Cuban woman has only achieved a slightlygreater degree of independence. The discussions on theConstitution in the Revolutionary Defense Committees inCuba were very interesting. People said, 'If you don't work,you don't cat.' Some pointed out that many women didn'twork, and the women's answer was, 'Of course we do, wework at home.' One must not forget that Cuban society isstill unable to incorporate all women in the productivesystem, as it has nut been able to solve the day care prob..lems yet. Although great advances have been made, theCuban woman is still a prisoner of domestic activities, evenmore so in this period of transition; for example, the petitbourgeoisie cannot solve the problem by transferring theexploitation to servants because there aren't any servantsleft If thin MC line tips due to food scarcity. everybodyhas to stand in line. On one hand, the women have tosacrifice a lot in this period of transition, but on the other,they have become more respected and independent. I hada very moving experience while I was in Cuba; I talked tosome ex-prostitutes. Prostitution was eliminated very quick-ly in Cuba; even during the democratic period there was noprostitution left. One of the women I spoke to had becomeintegrated into productive life; she had solved her problem,and was even going to become a 'millenia'. It was verytouching to see how her comrades treated her with respectand affection.

Tr: Do you think that the changes which occur in a social-ist society, for example, Cuba, have any influence on LatinAmerican women?V.B.: Yes, in the sense that those experiences can serve asan inspiration for the future, when we start to build social-ism; we can look at the examples and know what road totake. Only in this sense. I don't think there is enough in-formation about Cuba in the rest of Latin America to justifytalking about any other kind of influence. Just rememberthat 70% of the countries live under military dictatorships.The people know very little of what is going on in Cuba.Sonic intellectuals have access to the literature on what is

happening there. But, even though we have the information,how could we put it into practice here? Cuba is Socialist,here we have dependent capitalism, and this type of influenceonly can serve as an example for the future. Therein lies ourresponsibility as intellectuals to study this experience,assimilate it arid spread it, as we can serve as a bridge towardpopular sectors.

TT: Do you think that these changes may also have beeninfluenced by the feminist movement in North America?V.B.: Certainly, both by the North American and Europeanmovements. They both had a very strong impact. Everythingthat goes on in the advanced capitalist countries has an in-fluence on the dependent countries.

TT: Do you believe that within the framework of a capital-ist bourgeois society, the changes brought about by thefeminist movement contribute to - the struggle against thepresent social, political and economic situation in LatinAmerica?V.B: That depends on the movement's orientation. Inas-much as some sectors of the feminist movement tend tofollow orientations which lead them to defend particularinterests, divorced from more ample social struggles, I don'tthink they are collaborating Harnercker's hook "Cuba, Democracyments. This happens in many advanced capitalist countries.Quite to the contrary, the contribution is even negative. Themovement in Brazil, on the other hand, is playing a veryimportant role, because the women there are organizingthemselves in a struggle for democracy. That without doubtis an important contribution.

TT: In the present critical situation, women are led to workoutside their homes, and to study; at the same time, theyare urged to maintain their traditional role. Who is interestedin the conservation of this traditional role?V.B.: The system is interested in that, because it has nopossibility of incorporating women into the market. We areliving in a period of technical and scientific revolution, andthere is a capitalist trend toward structural unemployment.The last two crises of the system led to unemployment figureswhich surpassed all previous counts; I'm talking about countriessuch as U.S.A., France, and Germany, not to speak of GreatBritain, where the situation is now very deteriorated. Thesystem cannot massively incorporate women to the productiveapparatus. This can only be done in a planned socialist eco-nomy. Because of this, the system is interested in keepingwomen subordinated at home; it cannot solve the problemany other way. Front the point of view of capitalist ideology,there is nothing to stop incorporating women into the pro-ductive system, but it cannot be done, so the whole mother-hood and child care myth has to he developed. The systemcannot solve this problem, arid what is more, it becomes pro-gressively worse, both in the developed and the dependentcapitalist countries. All the resources of the media, publicity'and advertising are geared to the justification of this situation.

TT: But, at the sabre time, women are stimulated to studyand improve their training, in order to make more qualifiedlabour available.V.B.: True, but then they have no opportunity to join theworking force. This is a current problem for today's youthin general. It is also one of the reasons for young people'srebelliousness: they have no professional future. What happensin Latin America for an instance, is that women's particip-ation in the university increases, but they marry soon afterand devote themselves to raising children because it is sodifficult to get a job.

Ti': What are the developments in the power of decision andpolitical participation of women both in socialist and capital-ist countries?

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YAMARAIEN "AtatiEntianW4t -=Zitaitatslititzgattasaataz

Very important ones. For example, if one analysesthekilhan case, women's participation at all levels of political

i)cen integrated with that of the whole people. Fromthe Revolutionary Defense Committees, which are organizedin each block, with massive participation, to the Popular PowerAssemblies, and the recent discussions on institutionalization.I suggest you read Martha Harnewrcker's book "Cuba. Democracyor Dictatorship?", where all this is explained in great detail.

TT: You said before that Cuba was not able to incorporatewomen massively into the productive process. Why do youstipulate women in this context'? Isn't this a ease of discrim-ination against women?V.B.: The problem is that Cuba has not been able to createthe conditions which would enable women to leave home.The necessary infrastructure of day care centres, popularrestaurants, collective laundries, and so on will take years tocomplete; it implies an architectural and urban revolution atall levels, and a solution to the urban-rural contradiction.That is why I said that this could only be achieved at a com-munist stage, which would imply a tremendous developmentof productive forces.

TT: What is the Cuban woman's participation in Party life?V.B.: It has increased drastically. If you take a look at theThesis and Resolutions of the First Congress of the Com-munist Party of Cuba, you will see the Party's preoccupationwith the massive incorporation of women, and with makingthat incorporation meaningful. This concern is very healthyand aims at finding better solutions to the problem.

TT: You state that the incorporation of women into theproductive process will depend on existing economic de-velopment. If in Cuba today there is no infrastructure whichwill enable this development, do you think that this maybecome an obstacle to the advancement of the Cubanwoman's present situation; in other words, that the lack ofjob opportunities may continue to relegate her, and lead herto revert to her traditional role?V.B.: I was trying to point out that the change cannot beaccomplished all at once. It is a relatively slow process, butthere is an increasing trend towards a consciousness that thisincorporation is necessary. On the other hand, the develop-ment of industry, hospitals, factories and so on in Cubanaturally help to create the conditions for this incorporation,and the increase in accumulation permits the assignment ofmore funds to the building of day care centres, collectiverestaurants, and provokes the disappearance of line ups for

31171011L711.136EDIMInameneacacass.s,

food, thus creating the required conditions for women'stotal liberation. In Cuba today, the activist who discrim-inates against his wife and does not collaborate at home, isexpelled from the Party. But, as I said before, it is a gradualprocess; and although women are not massively incorporatedinto the productive process, this has not been an obstacle -to their involvement in the political process, perhaps becausethis is also the result of an important revolution.

TT: And what is women's power of decision and ioliticalparticipation in the capitalist countries?V.B.: It is very restricted, and only appears as the right tovote in those countries where there is a representative dem-ocracy. It is interesting to see that in many cases right wingpar ties arc elected on the basis of women's votes. ChristianDemocracy in Chile and Franco in Spain, were both electedon the basis of women's votes. Women tend to be conserv-ative, and the left has always lost their vote. This is an im-portant point for consideration. In any event, their partic-ipation is limited to voting; there are very few female MP's,Senators or politicians in capitalist countries.

TT: Is it legitimate to he concerned about the situation ofwomen before a socialist revolution, or should one wait,devote efforts to the revolution and then attend to women'sliberation?V.B.: The struggle for woman's liberation should he takenup now, because it is a very important component of thestruggle for a socialist revolution. The best possible advantageshould be taken of this struggle; it is an important revolutionarybanner.

TT: What form should our struggle and preoccupation aboutthe situation of women take today?V.B.: I think that the struggle for women's liberation shouldhe led by the working class and its parties, and all women'sdemands should he made in the context of that struggle,above all those of oppressed women, workers, peasants, andimportant sectors of the petit bourgeoisie. To conclude,women have an obligation to participate in the people'sgeneral struggles, in pursuit of political and economic dem-ocracy as pre-requisites of a socialist revolution. These popularsectors should also show solidarity with women's demands,advocating their incorporation into the productive process,and their right of a wider political participation, althoughthey know that this will only be possible when capitalismis overcome.

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