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Erik Nslund: What doesLes annes folles the 1920 S mean t o you,
Monsieur Berg?Pierre Berg: I think the1920 S was importantfor the
creation of art: in every form, forinstance in haute couture. Art
is a reectionof our society, of the times, of theart devivre. Les
annes folleswas a reection: Itwas right after the First World War
and itwas a mix of inuences from all over theworld and Paris was
the capital, the centreof art and creativity. So for me the1920 S
isan expression of theart de vivre in France.The Ballets Sudois was
very, very famousat the time. Yet, today you notice that veryfew
people know about it. This is due to ourchanging conception of the
arts.Thomas Persson: Haute couture was verymuch part of the arts of
the1920 S.Pierre: Yes, and I mention haute couturefor a reason
because the niche of hautecouture has completely died today. Not
foreconomic reasons, absolutely not, becausethere are many very
rich people today, as
you know. For me the reason is that hautecouture no longer
corresponds to theartde vivre. The art de vivre has
completelychanged. Before the last war it was ArtDeco, it was haute
couture, there were lotsof balls, dinner parties, opening nights,
theopera, everything. Today, this has completelyvanished and haute
couture means absolutelynothing. Rich people today dont want tolook
rich. Look at the richest man in theworld, Mr Bill Gates. Look at
the people
who stay at the Ritz. Life has changed. Rolfde Mar and the
Ballets Sudois is a thingof the past. I think that what you are
doingnow with the publication of your book isabsolutely fantastic
because we must knowour roots. Our roots are very important inthe
lives of everybody.Erik: If you do not know your history youmay try
to invent the wheel again.Thomas: In 1933 Rolf founded the
worldsrst dance museum in Paris a hugecontribution to the cultural
life of the times.
Yet, Rolf de Mars importance in the artshas somehow been
overlooked. Why is that?Erik: One reason is probably that Rolfde
Mar was not the kind of person whopromoted himself and his
achievements. Hekept a rather low prole. And after1945 hewas not so
active in Paris. He spent a lotof time on his coffee farm in Africa
andconstantly travelled around the world onexpeditions, lming dance
and collectingobjects for his museum. It was not until thelate1950
S that he returned in earnest to Parisbut then he received a lot of
attention againand was called the Swedish Diaghilev.All the books
and attention devoted to thelegendary Diaghilev and his Ballets
Russeshave of course put de Mar in the shadow.But now the time is
ripe to put the spotlighton him again.Thomas: How did you get the
idea ofwriting your book, Erik?Erik: I have been snifng around the
subject
for 35 years and when I was writing mybooks on the Swedish
dancer Carina Ari,who was part of Rolfs company in Paris, andthe
painter Nils Dardel who was Rolfs closefriend and lover for some
years, I had theopportunity to further explore the subjectof Rolf
de Mar, the Ballets Sudois andParis of the1920 S. So when I was
appointedDirector of Stockholms Dance Museum in1989 , the idea of
writing a biography of Rolfde Mar as art collector, ballet leader
andmuseum founder gradually developed. Heis an exciting character:
a wealthy aristocratwho could have been content with livinga life
of luxury as a playboy, but insteadused his wealth to promote art
and artisticcreativity. He was not an artist himself, buthe had an
eye for art and talent in others.And thus he wrote himself into the
historyof the arts: dance, theatre, music, paintingThomas: I think
your book is interesting onso many levels. I love your narrative
throughthe history of modern art , its movements andall the
artists, and how Rolf de Mar usedhis ballet in Paris to create an
avant-gardestage for art and creative collaboration.Erik: Yes, and
I think it was a very interestingperiod for the arts in general,
the rst decadesof the20 th century, starting with Cubism,
forinstance, launched by Braque and Picasso,which then very quickly
came to inuencethe other arts. In Russia especially, we ndan
incredible artistic creativity, particularlyin the years before1914
, when Cubism and
Futurism were taken up by Russian artistsand turned into a very
special Russianmovement. In the performing arts, as well,it was an
exciting period both in Russiaand in the West. Of course, the
creativedevelopment lost its impetus to some extentbecause of the
First World War, but after theRussian Revolution of1917 and in the
Westin the 1920 S, it picked up speed again. AndRolf de Mar and his
Ballets Sudois becamea centre for all the new artistic
movementsduring its ve years of existence in Paris. Itbecame a
hothouse for new plants.Pierre: It is also important to mention
theBallets Russes because it became famous atthe same time.Erik:
Yes, without Diaghilev and the BalletsRusses there wouldnt have
been any BalletsSudois, of course. What they did for thedance and
for the ballet was so revolutionary.After the Russians dbut in
Paris in1909 ,ballet became in fashion. It becamefashionable to go
to the ballet, and it hada big audience. Before the Ballets
Russes,ballet was not considered an art form. It wasonly seen as an
amusement, pretty legsThomas: It would be interesting to learn
alittle about how ballet went from amusementto art through the
Ballets Russes.Erik: What the Russians did was to engagegreat
painters and great musicians for theballet and so they created a
synthesis ofdance, dramatic action, music and painting.It was
spectacularly colourful, dramatically
engaging and sensuous, not to say sexy. Inthe West, one had
hardly seen male dancerson the stage before they had
almostdisappeared during the late19 th centurydue to the cult of
the Romantic ballerina
and when these Russian men, virile andvirtuosic, ew across the
stage, as if theyhad whirled in from the Russian steppe,
theaudience gasped, they had not seen anythinglike it. But it was
the whole, unied,colourful expression that made the audiencehold
their breath. With painters like LonBakst and Alexandre Benois
creating thevisual images and young composers likeIgor Stravinsky
creating the music, balletcame to be considered an art form. And
thetremendous success of the Ballets Russesmade it very tempting
for other artists, notleast painters like Picasso, Braque,
Matisse,Gris and many others to collaborate inballet
projects.Pierre: Yes, this is very important because it istrue. And
ballet became an art form becauseof the protagonists, its creators,
like Nijinskywith Diaghilev. In a short time, he becamea star, an
icon, comparable with great rockstars like Mick Jagger or David
Bowie oftoday. Its the same with Maria Callas andthe opera. Its
always the same. You have tond a great personality and suddenly
peoplediscover it as an art form.Erik: That was what made Diaghilev
andthat period so extraordinary. It was a startingpoint for the
whole experimental era of the
1920 S. I also think that what was interestingwith this period
was the inuence of paintingand the decorative side of the
performance.Very few choreographers are interested inthat
now.Pierre: Nobody. You know, with SergeDiaghilev and Rolf de Mar
it was thetime of the painter, and it was completelydifferent. You
had the work of real artists the painters, like Picasso for
instance, andmany, many others. And that was
absolutelywonderful.Erik: I think in Rolfs case the ballet wasvery
much related to his art collection. Hecreated a fabulous collection
of modern artin the 1910 S. He bought Braque, Picasso,Lger, and so
on. In a way, I think he saw theballet as an extension of his art
collection.He wanted his paintings to come alive onthe stage. It is
typical that several of thepainters in his collection were engaged
asstage designers for his company.Pierre: Because he was very
involved in theart of his time. This is important becauseRolf de
Mar was one of the rst tobecome interested in stage design,
musicand costumes, and that was the beginning ofmodern dance. He
played an important partin modern dance.Thomas: Do you think that
it was Rolfde Mars plan from the beginning, tobecome so
experimental in mixing artwith ballet and the stage? Or was
itsomething that evolved more organically?
Pierre: More organically, absolutely.Erik: Yes, you are quite
right. But theimpetus from the beginning was more visualand
decorative, related to painting. Thenthe ballet became more
experimental andavant-garde in the1920 S. So when he closedhis shop
in1925 , after having created therevolutionary happening
calledRelche, hefelt he could not go any further on the roadof
experimentation.Thomas: You write that ar t collecting wasin Rolfs
blood, inherited from his maternalgrandmother, Countess Wilhelmina
vonHallwyl.Erik: Yes, to some extent that is true. Fora long time
he lived with his grandparentsin their palatial home in Stockholm,
wherehe was surrounded by his grandmotherscollections and helped
her catalogue them.I think this spurred him on in that
direction.But when he started collecting seriously in1913-1914 , he
took a completely differentdirection than his grandmother who
wasvery traditional in her taste and started tocreate a collection
with the focus on modernart in general and Cubism in particular.
Butthat direction was the result of his meetingwith the young
Swedish pa inter Nils Dardel.He was the one who guided Rolf
intomodern art and cultivated his taste.Thomas: And he was able to
actively cultivateit because he was such a privileged man.Rolf came
from a very rich family one ofthe richest families in Sweden.
Erik: Yes, absolutely. So, of courthe means to do what he did
ahe was very privileged in being thgrandchild of the Countess von
HPierre: Where did the money comErik: The money came from thfrom
the big timber industry inof Sweden. That was the foundaimmense
family fortune. So, ofwas very important that he hadcertainly
helped.Thomas: It was a good way to money.Pierre: [Laughs] I agree
with yomust be spent on the ar ts. AlwayThomas: It is so touching
to read ade Mars wonderful relationshgrandmother, and how she
supavant-garde ballet in Paris. Do yoBallets Sudois would have
existhe help of Countess WilhelminaErik: Without her wholehearteit
would perhaps not have beeAlthough she sometimes cabout the family
fortune beingsomething she could not always she never let him down.
She him birthday or Christmas presform of a cheque of a couple
Swedish crowns. A nice and ungrandmother indeed!Thomas: So with
this money Swedish timber industry Rolfballet that had a world of
inue
114 115
R ol f d e Ma r in hi s o f c e a t t he Th at re de s Ch amp s-
El ys e s. A din ne r w it h t he pa rt ic ip an ts of Je an Co ct
ea us ba ll et Les Maris de la Tour Eiffel . The fourth man fromthe
right hand side on the front row is Jean Brlin. Next to him in
white sits Irne Lagut, who did thesets, and Rolf de Mar. Standing
behind Brlin is Jean Cocteau. Number four to the left of Cocteau is
the
prima ballerina Carina Ari and to her left is the composer
Francis Poulenc. To the left behind Cocteau arethe composers
Georges Auric, Darius Milhaud, Germaine Tailleferre and Arthur
Honegger. The composers were all members of the group called Les
Six.
Fernand Lger (to the left) and Rolf de Mar donned simple clothes
and explored the wormusettes and bars of eastern Paris as
inspiration for theSkating Rink.
8/10/2019 Rolf de Mar and Ballets Sudois
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the Spanish painter El Greco, to African inuences and the jazz
of Cole Porter. However, it was the all-Swedish ballets,La Nuit de
Saint Jean (Midsommarvaka) andThe FoolishVirgins that became the
most loved numbers.Erik: Today we nd the more experimental pieces
moreinteresting, whereas in that period the most popular thingswere
the Swedish ballets which were considered very exoticfor a
continental audience. They used Swedish folkloredancing, in the
same way the Russian ballet used theirRussian heritage. So yes, the
Swedish pieces in the repertoirewere the most popular at t he time
when they toured Europeand America. Today we nd those less
interesting and welook more to the avant-garde creations that
pointed more tothe future, to our own t ime.Thomas: Such asSkating
Rink, one of Fernand Lgerscontributions to the Ballets Sudois.
Cubism had alreadyentered the ballet context with Picassos work for
the BalletsRusses in1917 , but Lger went much further, making
thedancers into mobile scenery for his art work, equipped
withroller skates! This must surely have been very new in1922
?Erik: It certainly was. One had hardly seen dance likethis before.
But it was the idea of Rolf and his dancer/choreographer Jean Brlin
to extend the boundaries of whatdance can be. That is why many of
the critics were afterthem. They could not grasp that they tried to
create newconcepts of dance and performing arts.Thomas: The
choreography was created by Jean Brlin thestar of the Ballets
Sudois.Please tell us a little bit about him.Erik: Jean Brlin
worked with the famous Russianchoreographer Michel Fokine, who had
been part of theDiaghilev enterprise, when he visited the Stockholm
Operain 1912-1913 . Fokine spotted the young talent and later
onBrlin was able to study for Fokine, thanks to Rolf whosponsored
the young mans studies.Thomas: Your book is spiced with the
romantic fact thatRolf de Mar created a ballet so that his lover,
Brlin, coulddevelop his talents as a choreographer.Erik: Yes, Rolf
wanted to create a platform for him and thatis how the Ballets
Sudois came into being.Thomas: Its interesting that the story of
two of the mostartistic and innovative ballet companies in the
world alsois the story of two homosexual love affairs: Diaghilev
andNijinsky, Rolf de Mar and Jean Brlin.Erik: Yes, there a re many
similarities between these twocouples. Both Diaghilev and de Mar
had a talent forbringing out and nurturing creativity in others.
But animportant difference is that Rolf was rich, very rich,
whereasDiaghilev was not. He always was on the verge of
bankruptcyand had to nd rich people in Paris and London to payhis
bills. This meant that he also had to keep an eye on theaudiences
tastes, whereas for Rolf that was not necessary.He could afford to
go his own way completely, without anyconsideration as to what t he
audience would think or like.Thomas: The Swedish Ballets dress
rehearsals were events ona grand scale. The audience included dukes
and princessesand maharajas, and artists such as Picasso, composers
likeErik Satie, and the fashion designers Jeanne Lanvin andPaul
Poiret much the same audience usually present at theBallets Russes
gala performances. Both ballets appealed tothe same players in the
artistic elds and were part of the bigdebate, internationally.Erik:
The soires of the two rival companies were importantevents in the
Paris society and the artistic world one had tobe seen at their
openings. Both Diaghilev and de Mar wereshrewd in the way they
mixed the audiences. It was importantfor them to spread the word.
The mouth-to-mouth methodis often the best way of marketing
something. The heateddebates about some of Rolf de Mars productions
were ofcourse also good for marketing. Neither Diaghilev nor deMar
avoided a scandal if they could smell one coming. Onthe contrary.
They understood its promotion value.Thomas: Yet, you write in your
book that the Russian Balletwas pre-eminently elitist in character,
whereas the Swedeswere working for a democratisation of dance.Erik:
The Swedes toured the provinces every year, whilethe Russians kept
to the big cities. I believe Rolf de Marreally wanted to spread
dance to a much wider audiencethan his rival who was associated
with high society, a reasonwhy many left-wing artists were so
shocked when theircomrade Pablo Picasso accepted the offer to
producestage designs for Diaghilev in1917 . It was almost
consideredtreason. The non-elitist mark of the Ballets Sudois was
one
reason why a painter like Fernand Lger was attracted tothe
Swedes.Thomas: There was a great sense of art istic collaboration
inParis in the1920 S.Erik: I had a friend who was the wife of the
painter NilsDardel and a friend of Rolf de Mar. I remember she
cameto my home and she looked into my bedroom, and she said,Oh, I
see you have a partous. And I said, Well, Thora,what do you mean by
that? And she said, A partous! Wehad that in Paris in the1920 S. A
big, big bed that everybodygot into. And I think that was also the
spirit of the1920 S artistically, that all the arts got into that
partous andparticipated somehow. Everything was allowed,
artistically,sexually and whatever. No one cared and everything
wasopen. Somehow I think what you said about the war havingopened
all the frontiers is very important. I think the big bed
is a metaphor of all the arts coming together and relating
toeach other.Thomas: And wasnt there more room in the Swedish
bedthan in the Russian bed? Was it not so that Rolf de Margave his
artistic companions freedom to do what theywanted, while Diaghilev
liked to have more control?Erik: Absolutely, Rolf was much less
dictatorial than hisRussian colleague and that is why I think Jean
Cocteaubecame so interested in the Ballets Sudois because it
wasmore open. Diaghilev always wanted to have the last word,and I
think Cocteau felt more freedom working with theBallets Sudois. It
was an attraction to work with Rolf deMar. Cocteau was also very
important in setting the tone ofthe whole era, of course. He wanted
to mix the arts, like hedid inLes Maris de la Tour Eiffel. He mixed
spoken theatre,dance, cabaretPierre: Cocteau is the perfect
example: the mixture of all thearts. He had a talent for all of
them, from poetry to cinema.But today its nished, even if the
borders are all open.Today you cannot nd an artist with all the
sensibilities thatCocteau had.Thomas: Because Cocteau was very much
of his timePierre: Yes, and he also made his time in many ways
andthat is why he was so important. Its this wonderful blendbetween
him and the rest of the people in his time. WhenI say his time I
mean what was happening around him
young people, young painters, young dancers,
youngchoreographers. Cocteau was very, very important. He wasan
enormous creator in every sense of the word.Erik: You knew him for
many years, Monsieur Berg.Pierre: I met him in the beginning of
the1950 S and we werefriends until he died in1963 . Its a family
story betweenCocteau and me. When Cocteau died I was a very
closefriend of his adopted son douard Dermit, who inheritedCocteau,
and when douard married many years later hehad a son. The godfather
was Jean Marais and the godmotherwas Jacqueline Picasso. And for
his (second or third) son Iwas the godfather, which means that we
were a very intimatefamily story. I loved douard very much. He was
a fantasticperson. Very honest and incredible.Thomas: Cocteau was
also the one who really pushed theBallets Sudois into the forefront
of the avant-garde.Erik: Absolutely. It might have happened anyhow
but hewas very important and made the b allet go in that
direction.They met at an ideal time. Cocteau had had his break
withDiaghilev a couple of years earlier and here was this
youngcompany appearing on the French stage that he could sortof
mould and leave his strong imprint on. I think that wasimportant to
him.Thomas: Cocteau said that Rolf de Mar, Nils Dardel and Jean
Brlin did France a great favour by letting its youngartists
experiment on their stage, creating a completely newart form.Erik:
It was quite amazing all the pieces of new Frenchmusic that Rolf de
Mar commissioned and brought to awider audience. They toured all
over Europe and in theStates. Its interesting when one reads
reviews from thisperiod a lot of people were against what the
Ballets Sudoisdid, people in the classical ballet were, of course,
attackingthem aggressively. But what everyone agreed on and thisis
interesting is that one could say a lot about the BalletsSudois and
what Rolf de Mar did but what they did forFrench art, for French
painting, and especially for Frenchmusic was outstanding! Everyone
agreed on that, that theyreally did a lot to promote French art and
music. I think thatwas really important in those days.Pierre: How
many pieces of French music did theycommission?Erik: In total they
produced24 new works, out of which Iwould say that80 per cent was
new French music. That isquite a lot.Pierre: Very impressive,
yes.Erik: Then, of course, they toured Europe so Frenchmusic was
really spread around. Of course, that encouragedDiaghilev to start
commissioning works from Frenchcomposers. They were competing all
the time. Discoveringtalent and having the possibility to nurture
it. I think thatwas characteristic of both de Mar and Diaghilev,
the noseand eye for talent. You also have a talent for spotting
talent,Monsieur Berg.Pierre: Thank you very much. That is a great
compliment.Thomas: Yes, there is a similarity between you and Rolf
deMar. Like him you are into publishing, you are a patron ofthe
arts, standing in the wings lifting someone else up andmaking sure
that their creation reaches an audience. Rolfwas a very good
businessman, and like you, one with anenthusiasm for music and art,
and the ability to recognise thevery new and push it forward. Its
heartbreaking to read thatin Sweden the newspapers were writing
these awful thingsabout Rolf de Mar, about his ridiculous
collection of artand that he was wasting his money. But he was an
innovatorand a visionary!Erik: Yes, its like they say: Prophets
dont get recognition intheir own countries. That was probably true
for him, too. Hebecame a semi-ofcial of the French state; he
representedthe French state on several occasions. He had a very
highstatus in France. But that was also lost later on. Now its
timeto get it back.Pierre: Absolutely. Rolf de Mar deserves great
recognitionhere in France. It is time to do something in his
honour!
book title:Rolf de Mar Art Collector, Ballet Director,
MuseumFounder author: Erik Nslund publisher: Langenskilds
Ballet
The story of Les Maris de la Tour Eiffel was told btwo
commentators using megaphones. In this publicshot Jean Cocteau
shows how this was done. Coctdidnt participate in the actual
performance.
Today you cannot find an art ist wit h all
the sensibilities that
Jean Coct eau had . It s
this wonderful blend
between him and the
rest of the peop le
in his time youn g
peop le, youn g pai nter s,
youn g danc ers , youn g choreograph ers.
Cocteau was an
enormous crea tor.
Pierre Berg
