10 29 12 Exhibits for Fast and Furious the Anatomy of a Failed Operation Part II of III Report

7/30/2019 10 29 12 Exhibits for Fast and Furious the Anatomy of a Failed Operation Part II of III Report

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Appendix I

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Fast and Furious: The Anatomy of a Failed Operation (Part II of III) Appendix I: Exhibit



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realized that indeed this was a matter worthy of

congressional interest.

A Well, I don't know that I can say precisely when

they thought it was of congressional interest. I might

characterize it, and I hope I'm not going too far abroad,

but I think they were doing more damage control than

anything.

My view is that the whole matter of the Department's

response in this case was a disaster. That as a result, it

came to fruition that the committee staff had to be more

aggressive and assertive in attempting to get information

from the Department, and as a result, there was more adverse

publicity towards ATF than was warranted if we had

cooperated from the very beginning. And a lot of what they

did was damage control after a while. Their position on

things changed weekly and it was hard for us to catch up on

it, but it was very clear that they were running the show.

Mr. Castor. I'm going to mark an Exhibit.

[Exhibit No. 1 was for identification.]

BY MR. CASTOR:

Q Exhibit number 1 is marked, it's a letter dated

February 4 from the Justice Department Assistant Attorney

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Q Correct.

A That was not a specific strategy that I have ever

seen adopted or promulgated by the Department. But they did

tell us to, A, go after people other than straw purchasers,

to use more sophisticated techniques and to try to get the

cartel plaza -- the cartel members and the money

transferors, and the people who had taken the guns to

Mexico.

Now, I don't know whether agent Voth read those memos

and said, oh, they opened the door for me, I can go through

it now or not. I don't know. But that was the direction of

the Department. And I don't disagree with that, because I

worked with DAG Ogden to provide some direction and

leadership for the Southwest border activity. And he did.

In fact, on the way back from Phoenix after the strike

force office was open, and he went down there for the press

conference, I sat next to him for a while and I talked to

him about the failure of the Department to give clear

guidance and coordinated, collaborative effort along the

Southwest border. And I think in part because of that, he

did create the Southwest border strategy group and came up

with policies which were good policies. In this case, it

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approach to it. I think there could have been

accommodations made between the Hill and ATF and DOJ has to

how information was shared. It was very frustrating to all

of us, and it appears thoroughly to us that the Department

is really trying to figure out a way to push the information

away from their political appointees at the Department.

Q Do you have any knowledge whether and when, if you

do have knowledge, this significant information was knowable

by the Department.

A Which significant information.

Q The fact that this firearms trafficking network may

have been funded by the FBI informants.

A I don't know when they could have known about it.

I don't have that information. All I know is when I first

alerted them to the fact, and that was after we learned

about it.

Q You had expressed some frustration earlier this

morning when we were speaking about the Office of

Legislative Affairs, that you wanted to brief Senator

Grassley as soon as possible but they wouldn't permit you.

A Right.

Q Could you walk us through what happened?

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Q -- as to how McMahon got the affidavit.

A I would assume that the authority to authorize

these types of things should be pushed down to the DAD

because everything can't come up to Chait, and certainly

Hoover can't handle another thing. I mean, he is just

overwhelmed with things that are going on in the agency. So

whether -- so I wouldn't be surprised either if it should

stay at the DAD level unless there is something

extraordinary about it that raises a question that you need

the Assistant Director's approval on.

Q Okay. And then the Exhibit 10 was just the exhibit

that referenced Voth and that had to go through the DAG's

office.

A Well, and let me say this. Again, I don't know of

any provision that requires these to go to the DAG. I

wouldn't be surprised if Voth who is a new supervisor,

hadn't been involved in this process before, got the DAG

confused with the AAG, which would be the Assistant Attorney

General for the Criminal Division. So, if he is saying

that, I would make sure first that he understands the

difference between the DAG and the AAG. Because I still

don't think that's the normal process, but I may be wrong.

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was marked for identification.]

BY MR. DAVIS:

Q I will give you a second to read it. There's a lot of text

down there.

So at the beginning of Mr. Gillett's email, it says that "OSII

has not yet finished a link-diagram on this investigation; therefore,

there is no chart in existence diagramming this investigation. Lorren

Leadmon and crew are currently working on such a link-diagram chart,

but it is not yet complete."

So the link-diagram chart, is that something that you ordered to

occur? Or how did that come into existence?

A I know that sometime around December the 17th I think we did

a briefing, and it had to do with -- somebody wanted a briefing, so

I arranged it. I don't know if it was my boss, if it was Mr. Newell,

or if it was the field ops, but we had a briefing. And I think they

were trying to tie the Reynosa seizure in with what was going on with

Fast and Furious.

So I think it was about this date is when the briefing happened.

And it was on -- I believe it was on the 7th floor conference room.

Q Uh-huh.

A And I'm trying to think if Mr. Melson was there. I know at

least Billy Hoover was there, the deputy.

But we had two charts. And I think some people from DOJ were

there, also. And the names Kevin Carlisle and Joe Cooley came up. And

those names came up because I asked Kevin O'Keefe, who had been in

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contact with them.

But we had two charts; I think Lorren had two charts. One was

a link chart with the Reynosa seizure, which had nothing to do with

Fast and Furious. That was a separate area. And then it had the -- I

don't know if it was a couple of seizures. And it had pictures of

people. And it had to do with Fast and Furious. I don't know if it

was the Nogales, the Naco seizures. But it showed, I think, players,

people who were recurring buyers.

Q Uh-huh.

A So those were briefed by, I think, Lorren to members of the

executive staff on the 7th floor on or about the 17th.

Q Okay. And you were at that briefing?

A Yes, I was.

Q Okay. And can you recall what was mentioned, what was

discussed, what the mood was in the room?

A I know the link chart, the one with the Reynosa seizure, was

confusing. I think they were looking -- speaking with DOJ to see what

kind of prosecution we could get in that area. Because I think, in

the past, not having worked in those areas, that the prosecution may

not have been coming along like they wanted to with the straw

purchasers. So I think there was some discussion on that.

Q Okay. It's my understanding that there were some

difficulties between your group, OSII, and the folks in Phoenix with

regards to information sharing. Folks from your group were locked out

of NFORCE. Are you familiar with that?

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Documents

10 29 12 Exhibits for Fast and Furious the Anatomy of a Failed Operation Part II of III Report