Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

Seventh Annual

7 T H W O R L D B U S I N E S S A N D E X E C U T I V E C O A C H S U M M I T 2 0 1 7

Interview with Dr. Jim Kim & Marshall Goldsmith On The Impact Of Coaching

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

www.wbecs.com 1

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

www.wbecs.com

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

2

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

www.wbecs.com

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

3

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

www.wbecs.com

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

4

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

www.wbecs.com

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

5

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

www.wbecs.com

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

6

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

www.wbecs.com

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

7

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

www.wbecs.com

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

8

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

www.wbecs.com

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

9

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

www.wbecs.com

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

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given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

www.wbecs.com

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

11

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

www.wbecs.com

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

12

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

www.wbecs.com

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

13

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

www.wbecs.com

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

14

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

www.wbecs.com

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

15

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

www.wbecs.com

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

16

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

www.wbecs.com

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

17

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

www.wbecs.com

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

18

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

Jim Kim:Well. So what I would say is that I have watched coaches, and I have talked to coaches. Not your

coaches Marshall, but you know coaches that now that we have so many who want coaching that

we hire them.

And a lot of coaches come in and want to convince us that they have a model of coaching. And

the model often becomes far more important than the actual coaching process. The thing that

you come with Marshall is that first 360. It's, for the people I've talked to who've gone through it.

They say that it's really one of the most significant experiences of their adult lives.

And so I would say to the coaches you really take your time, really take your time to ensure that

you are really really good at providing that 360. I think that's the seminal moment. Because the

path to improve. I mean Marshall, I think if they just read your books and adopt the techniques

that you've outlined, that they're going to have success. But it's that first moment where you take

the time to really understand how everyone else is seeing this person. That it's not you with a

special method that will cure everybody. It's the extent to which you really understand the

strength and weaknesses of your client. But that's where improvement comes from.

And you know my guess is that even leadership coaches can get better. And for me looking back

it was that moment that really made me a disciple. You know forever, to think oh my goodness. I

mean. How lucky I am to have somebody at this stage in my life and I'm president of a university.

Come and just bring me to my knees in terms of having to look at myself, maybe for the first time

in my adult life. How - and I didn't feel lucky right then, Marshall - as you know. I didn't feel lucky

right then or the day after. But then you know even after a couple of weeks I just thought, you

know, I'm so fortunate that there is this person in complete confidentiality that will give it to me

straight. And I think that that's really the start of any meaningful relationship between coach and

client.

Marshall:Great. Two final comments from me. One is I'd like to thank WBECS for having us do this talk.

Number two though is really pushing his EthicalCoach idea and for what I think is adding a lot of

class to our whole profession. Really trying to get, not just coaches, but the best coaches to do

volunteer work, to help others. And I think that's just the best use of the coach's time. Rather

than try to be somebody you're not, or play an insignificant role in a nonprofit to really leverage

your strength. It is a wonderful thing.

And I would like to thank you. You're a busy person; you're president of the World Bank you

didn't have to do this. I really appreciate you taking the time and all the wonderful support you've

But he also believes that you're not going to get better until you face the reality of how people

see you in all its glory and all its horror. And so you know that first session. It's like I went to an

extremely primitive place in trying to defend myself. I said things to Marshall like “well, but

Marshall you know I'm Asian American”. And so then Marshal listed for me like the hundred Asian

leaders that he coached over his lifetime, and I was like “all right, all right, I won't go there.”

“Yeah, but Marshall, you see, I’ve been working to help the poor my whole life,” and then he told

me about Frances Hesselbein, and I didn't have that.

And it was at that point when you're absolutely toothless, that the growing starts.

And you know there's just I can't imagine, you know, how anyone could,do it in that way where

they were where they really bring you down to a point where you say “oh my goodness, you

know, all my flaws are open to the world.” And then Marshall starts building you back by saying

“Okay now let's start. Here the tools that you need to use, to get feedback. And really take the

feedback and do it in a disciplined way and ask people for help get better.”

The method is this is just so brilliant and if you think about you know all the great theoreticians in

the world, about you know, the human psyche. And you know what it takes to be a balanced

person who brings out the best in others. All the elements are there. And so I would just, and I

hope some leaders of nonprofits watch this video. And what I would say is really seek out the

people who can give you that experience.

And it's also what I tell every young person I know, I said you know get some leadership training

and start early. Don't think that leadership training is for people who are in positions of leader-

ship because leadership training will actually help you be a better team member.

You know as one of the great things about the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth that you

and I both know so well. Is that they, every single MBA student, gets more than 20 team experi-

ences. And then they have team doctors that watch how you interact and give you that feedback,

and I think that's why Tuck graduates do so well out there in the world.

And boy you know as every time we bring new people into this organization, you know it would

have been great if they all could have had a team doctors, or leadership coaches coming in. But

that's OK because we provide that once they get here as well as we can.

Marshall:One final comment and that's for all the coaches listening. Any words for them about coaching or

working with nonprofits. Any encouragement you would have for them.

Jim Kim:Well so one of the great moments and I won't say who it was, it was another non-profit leader

that I had suggested to Marshall that he might work with him. And his initial response to Marshall

was, “Well you know Marshall, I just have to warn you that you're going to be talking to my direct

reports and you know you're going to have to encourage them to really say some negative things

because I think mostly they'll tell you good things.”

Marshall:Oh yeah, right!

Jim Kim:And Marshall just started laughing. He started laughing. And of course, the direct reports needed

no prompting. And I think part of it.

Marshall:By the way thirty-two medical doctors were on that list 32 medical, all they're only going to say

good things. Hello. Hello. What are you thinking?

Jim Kim:So you know some of the reactions that you get. You know we go in knowing that Marshall is the

greatest leadership coach on Earth. But what happens is that you get this sense that OK so that

was going on in my head but I didn't think anyone else was picking it up.

Oh, come on. They didn't really, I mean yeah I know I was thinking that but they couldn't possibly

picked it up,

Marshall:And they did.

Jim Kim:So Marshall gives you a view of yourself that, you know, on the one hand, he doesn't crush you.

He gives you some of the positives, but in he says this is how people are seeing you. And all I'm

here for is to help you be better. Help you get better. Marshall is like the greatest example of the

growth mindset. Marshall believes everyone can get better.

Jim Kim:Well Marshall, you know you've done a significant amount of pro bono work before but then

when you started working with me what was really interesting is then you started working with

Raj Shah who is head of USAID.

Marshall:Who is going to be here tomorrow by the way.

Jim Kim:Oh Is he going to be here tomorrow? Great.

So the fact that you've got to look at two different huge development organizations was helpful to

me. You told me things that you'd learned working with Raj that just went off in my head. My

goodness, that's what's going on here. And now that you've developed this sort of practice of you

know John Noseworthy from the Mayo Clinic and now George Daley the Dean Harvard Medical

School, my classmate who is now going to be working with you. I mean now you're developing an

expertise on what it's like working for these kinds of organizations. That's incredibly helpful too.

And so maybe one of the things that can come out of this is just a thought that came to my mind

now, is that we can start developing some sort of packets and special sort of focused sessions for

leaders of nonprofits. The first thing is that leaders of nonprofits have to come to the conclusion

that they need help with leadership. And so many of them think that that it's just mission. As long

as my mission is strong as long as my commitment is there. That's all I need. But in fact, that's

just the beginning - right now.

Marshall:Well, two final things I'd like to discuss with you. The first one is you've talked a lot about the

positives of coaching which is good. Also, you did mention this first feedback thing, if you’ve

never been through it, it's a little tough. And again you've been around my other clients. I think I

may be wrong.

I think it’s Doug. Doug who's now the CEO of Wal-Mart you know what he said about the feedback

session? He said, “My first feedback session with Marshall Goldsmith,” he said “it made a trip to

the dentist to get a root canal operation feel like one of the better moments in my life.”

He said it was so bad, he was exaggerating. It wasn't that bad. Tell the group; it's not the easiest

moment in the world.

Jim Kim:It's true.

Marshall:People are going to die. You still are human, and you still need to go to sleep. And if you don't go

to sleep you're not going help anybody.

On the other hand just treating people because you have this good mission that somehow now

this excuses you from treating people with dignity like you should treat any people.

I've seen that happen. I'm sure you had more than I have in the nonprofit world.

Jim Kim:Well, you know Marshall with the MG100 group. You started this amazing virtuous cycle because

when you said, I'm going to give away everything. I mean you're giving away all your materials,

but you are also hosting them and paying for these lessons that are just invaluable to them. That

they couldn't get in any other way.

And what we're seeing here at the World Bank Group, we were directly benefiting from it because

now we're working with some of these coaches who we met through you. And now feel that part

of their mission in paying it forward. You know you've given them this great blessing, and now

they want to pass it on. But what I hope is that this particular series that we're filming right now

will turn into that. A virtuous cycle where the outreach to the nonprofits will continue to grow. I

mean I really hope that's what happens.

Marshall:Well you know the other thing is again this sounds very strange. Because I went into the idea of,

the history of the project is...I went to a program with my friend Ayse Birsel. I think who you have

met, wonderful woman, right. And she wrote a book ‘Design The Life You Love’ and who are your

heroes. And my heroes were people like you and Alan and Frances Hesselbein, and great teach-

ers, great teachers who also were very generous people.

You're a very generous person. You don't have to be here this weekend. You're donating your

time to. So anyway. Very nice generous people. Then what happens is she sent me more like

them, that gave me the inspiration to do this. To give back to these people. And the only price is

they do the same thing. The ultimate irony of this program. I'm the winner.

us. That kind of attitude. And I want you to get better at it. You got till Monday. I'm rooting for

you. But I'm not sure you can do it.” And of course, Alan changed immediately.

But that kind of toxic behavior is quite prevalent in many nonprofit organizations because I think

people get the sense that you know we're doing God's work, we're doing such good things for

everybody, that the way we talk to each other is not important.

Marshall:Right.

Jim Kim: And so let me just encourage all the leaders who are looking at this video, please go out and help

because it's just as needed among non-profit organizations as it is in for-profit organizations.

For-profit organizations can afford Marshall and some of these others. But the nonprofits really

cannot. But it's just as important if not more important. Because the conditions we face are more

difficult. You need to be even more thoughtful about what your peers and what your direct

reports are thinking about you. Constantly trying to get better. The holiness of the mission does

not make you immune to bad behavior.

Marshall:Oh, you know Dr. Jim, I totally agree with you on this one. I find, unfortunately, I've worked with

leaders in nonprofits who sincerely love humanity and cannot stand human beings. They love

humanity theory. They love the theory of humanity.

They treat humans like dirt. And the glaring discrepancy between this love of humanity and this

disdain for normal humans is just you know very mind-boggling.

And so I completely agree with you, and it's the other thing about nonprofits is, it's good to be

righteous. It's not good to be self-righteous. And I find sometimes the nonprofit leaders can kind

of go too far here. And that righteous just turns into self-righteous, preacher holier than thou

talking down.

And then they found in nonprofits is also in a way the leaders have a weapon that's even bigger

than money. What is that weapon? Guilt. I worked with the head of the International Red Cross,

and they're working on disasters, and people are dying out there. And all of a sudden you can

start hearing things like what do you mean you need to go to sleep? How many people are going

to die because you go to sleep? Well, it is true.

who you’ve had a chance... I do volunteer work for the military too.

Jim Kim: Right. Right.

Marshall:And you know, had a chance to meet - you’ve met General Shinseki?

Jim Kim:Of course, yes.

Marshall:Had a chance to work with him, work with admirals, and you know I got to fly in a fighter jet and

do all of this. I wouldn't get to do that stuff, and you couldn't buy it. You couldn't buy it.

So to me, you know back to that MasterCard term, priceless. You know the benefits I've got from

doing volunteer work, for me, just selfishly, have been priceless. Priceless. So I think I really want

to encourage the coaches to do this for a variety reasons.

One of them is learning too. If you just get one type of an organization you never know. Is this

specific to this organization, or is this about human beings? You work with 50 different types of

organizations, and you start to see what is really unique to the organization.

Jim Kim:Yeah, you know the issue of providing leadership training to nonprofits. So the fact is that usually,

most nonprofits can't afford great leadership coaches. And so often you know if they even think

about leadership the coaches they can afford are probably sort of just people in the area.

And there's often a real suspicion and cynicism about coaching. Which is too bad because I tell

you, you know, so many of the nonprofits the thing that I see that's most detrimental to their

future is bad leadership.

And you know Alan told the story about when he was at Boeing, it was such a toxic environment

and people would say all the time, “But what is it? What is it about this you don't understand?”

And Alan said that for a short time he even adopted those behaviors. But then someone did

exactly what he now does. They just came to him and said, “Alan, you know that's not working for

taught me every day.

I couldn't buy that.

I didn't have to buy it, just because I made a donation, it was given to me. So if I look at the

blessings, I've had and lived the first six books I did with Frances Hesselbein. The first book I did

was Richard Bechard, Frances Hesselbein, Peter Drucker and me. Now, who was I? I can tell you I

was nobody compared to these people. Nobody. After the sixth book. Guess what. One of them. I

was one of them.

Well to me just a fantastic blessing to be able to work with quality people.

The other thing you mentioned our dinners together. One thing I like about it, it's just diversity of

types of people.

Jim Kim:Absolutely.

Marshall:Now one person I coach in a kind of funny way as a volunteer, although not really for good deed

doing, for somewhat selfish purposes is our friend David Chang. Now David is one of the worlds

greatest chefs. I was kind of like - “Will Work for Food!” He has made me some pretty spectacular

meals. And you know it's one of the top chefs in the world, of course, a good friend of yours.

Jim Kim:You had a great impact on David.

Marshall:Well, you know he is a wonderful guy.

A lot of fun. The reality though is it’s a lot of fun. And I like to have diversity. I don't want - if you

have a bunch of just corporate CEOs around - no matter how nice they are, they tend to get a

little competitive. You know mine is bigger than yours kind of deal.

And when you have people from nonprofits, different types, like maybe General Eric Shinseki,

I go to spend nine days in Africa watching people starve to death. A picture of it is in my book

Triggers, a picture of a woman kneeling down. I think you saw it. She was measuring the arms of

children. If they're too small they die, too big they don't get food. Is just heart-wrenching.

I get so much out of that experience that I keep that picture every day. I look at that. And it's a

reminder to be grateful. We can't buy that kind of experience. If I hadn’t been a volunteer, I would

have never had that experience.

So then, I worked. Richard Schubert, I got to work with George Weber head of the International

Red Cross. Then I get to meet Frances Hesselbein, who you know.

Give me your reactions to for instance Frances.

Jim Kim:Just reading her life story and then meeting her... I mean you know she's there, you meet her,

and she seems like the kindest, warmest, most open person, and she is, of course. But my good-

ness the way she’s made difficult decisions. Boy, you do not want to take her on. She knows what

she's doing is something that's good for girls from every kind of background, and she's protecting

them, she's helping them to grow. And so to have that much warmth and kindness and insight,

mixed with the steely toughness that she's had to have to defend her organization and to keep it

going forward. It's just an absolute unique, unique combination I've never seen it before.

Marshall:Well you know she and Alan remind me a lot of each other, in two ways. One they're both the

nicest people in the world. Heart of Gold. And I’ll also say a backbone of titanium.

Jim Kim:Yeah absolutely.

Marshall:Both of them. Heart of gold and a backbone of Titanium. Alan is the sweetest guy in the world.

You do the wrong thing. He won't get angry. He might say well you had a choice.

And I think about my own journey through life, the volunteer work I've done has totally changed

my life. If I had not done this volunteer work, I would have not met Frances Hesselbein. Frances

Hesselbein introduced me to Peter Drucker. Volunteer and Peter Drucker Foundation. I got to

spend 15 days with Peter Drucker. I mean what's that worth. I use something Peter Drucker

So I've sent my people to many of these events, and they always come back and say “wow there's

just nothing like that”. Because you know we're together in facing so many of the same problems.

And there's no one else that can, that can help us in quite the same way. But your CEO group,

Marshall, I think I've been to at least five or six of them going back now almost a decade.

And it's not just that they're CEOs and they're facing some of the similar issues. It's they’re CEOs

who've been coached by you.

So when we get together, we always start by commiserating over our first 360 feedback and how

low we felt right at that moment. And so we all use the same rules right.

When we get together with all the CEOs we use the same rules that Marshall uses in coaching us

which is that if you say anything defensive, a no, a but, or try to explain yourself, you have to put

20 dollars on the table. All of us are sitting together. We've raised thousands of dollars at some

meetings, and it's the same rules, and we're always trying to either resist saying something like

“Yeah but that's not what it really was, it was just.”

So some of these meetings I got to the point that I would prepay. I would put $100 on the table,

and say “Okay, I’m going to object at least five times to this.”

But there are friends of mine now, you know, we've reached out to them. And just sitting listening

to their leadership experience is extremely valuable. I strongly recommend it to all leadership

coaches to bring your clients together and …

Marshall:Oh yeah. And get over any kind of ego thing because you have to be the expert at everything to

me.

I gained credibility when I say I'm not an expert on something. Because people either feel OK

when you do act like you know about something you probably do. You don't pretend to know

about things you don't know. I'll talk a little bit about my own nonprofit journey.

Whatever I've done to help others, I've got back ten times. And not once, a hundred times maybe.

The first person I think, major volunteer job was to Dick Schubert, head of the Red Cross. Well, I

got to work for the American Red Cross. Fantastic experience. Got to learn what they were doing.

More important though. He introduced me to George Weber, head of the International Red

Cross.

started the coaching process, and the improvement was stunning. And so after two years, this

person had the best assessment of any of our senior leaders. And so I used that example over

and over and over again. And it's such a wonderful way.

You don't have to worry about giving tough feedback. Because, you get tough feedback, but then

we're going to give you every chance in the world to get better. Yeah. And without question, it's

the people who have the humility to listen, and who have the humility to take a really hard look at

themselves and how they interact with others and their own practices that not only get better but

over time turn out to be the greatest leaders.

So we've really changed this culture. Marshall, we've changed this culture completely toward one

in which we're not... It's not about sort of just assuming that you're good or assuming that you're

bad, you're a good manager, bad manager. You know we don't think like that. You know, we were

trying to adopt the Carol Dweck's idea of the growth mindset that anyone can get better, anyone.

And you know the most important ingredient to getting better is for you to have the humility to

listen to what people are telling you.

Marshall:Right. Now you know also in terms of coaching with you. My good friend and fellow coach Mark

Thompson is also pitching in. Charging about the same fee as I am. Please describe some things

Mark has been doing.

Jim Kim:So Mark. He's a great coach. First of all. But the great value that Mark brings is first and foremost

just who he is. Just what kind of person he is. And everyone can just tell that this is a person of

great sincerity and warmth. But he's also been in the financial business. So the fact that he's

actually been in our business has been incredibly helpful.

So Mark started off just coaching one of our most senior people. But now he's coaching the

whole team. And bringing in other volunteer coaches. And your network Marshall has just so

many fantastic people, that we almost can pick and choose people who have a very specific

background to coach very specific people.

And so Mark's just had a huge impact. But you know the other thing that we've done and you've

been so generous on this is that when you bring some of your coaches together sometimes, you

bring your coaches together. I mean, when you bring your clients together. Sometimes it's the

clients who are CEOs. And sometimes it's the clients who are in the wings to become the next

CEO’s.

meaning. It's very very important. Very important. So maybe some suggestions you may have for

the coaches in terms of things they could do to make a positive difference.

Jim Kim:Well you know Marshall, it was, I knew that coming into the World Bank Group that I was going to

be walking up the hill or climbing uphill a little bit and trying to convince them that coaching was

important.

And you know I guess one of the best lessons that I keep referring back to is you know our

mutual friend Atul Gawande. Atul Gawande wrote an article in The New Yorker about coaching.

He said that one day he was just watching television and he heard that at the time Tiger Woods

was the best golfer in the world, he had a Coach. Of course. And so he asked himself well gee I'm

a surgeon, but I haven't had anyone teach me anything about surgery since I finished my residen-

cy. Maybe I could get a coach that would help me.

And so he got a senior surgeon to sit in the operating room and watch him. And the senior

surgeon said, “well, you know, Atul you're such a great surgeon I'm sure there's nothing I can do

to help.” And that and Atul, of course, follows every single piece of data about his own surgical

outcomes. And so the surgeon came in, and he had a list of 15 things. Afterwards. He said “Well,

you know, you're a great surgeon, and you’re skilled but here is just 15 things that I've noticed.

And Atul then got better. Right. His numbers got better. And so he made the case that anybody

can get better. And if the best people in the world at what they're doing are getting coaching then

everyone should.

So I've used that argument with my own teams. And so Marshall, when you came, early on I

remember five years ago. In the first two or three months, you came in and met my whole team.

Right. And we began the conversation about coaching, and now everyone knows that I have a

very specific approach with our senior people.

We do an assessment. Every year we do a full assessment. And I was actually the first World Bank

Group president to also participate in the assessment. So I get my full assessment every year as

well. Everyone gets it. And if you're doing poorly, you know, I do with them exactly what Alan

taught me to do right. I go to them, and I say well you know this is not a good assessment right

now. Now you know I want you to get better. Right. I'm rooting for you. We're going to give you a

coach. I really want you to get better, but this is not acceptable. You know you really have to work

at it.

And so you know we had one leader who had just the worst assessment that anyone could

imagine. It was just off the charts bad, and then that person agreed to get a coach. Yes. And we

do. And it's nice to be around people who have different experiences and can help you and be on

your side.

And you know the other thing I'd like to talk about for the coaches listening is that right now

WBECS is working on something called the EthicalCoach program. I love this concept. You love

this concept. The winner concept. And the idea is really getting coaches to pitch in and try to do

nonprofit work.

I mean as you mentioned, I don't charge you any money have never charged any money and

don't plan to start. Right. And Alan doesn't charge you money, and Fred doesn't charge you

money. And Mark Thompson doesn't charge you money, and Sandy doesn't charge you money.

Jim Kim:For the coaches I have to say what Marshall says is, “I refuse to lower my price even another

dollar.” He’s tough. He’s tough. He’s tough on us man. He refused to lower the price!

Marshall:You're right. I won’t lower the price. It is what it is.

Well, I love it is because of EthicalCoach. Let me tell you why I think it's great for the coaches. Any

kind of volunteer work is good. So I don't mean this in any way to demean any volunteer work

because I think anybody who does any volunteer work at all should be praised.

The reality is me licking stamps or doing minor tasks is really not the best use of my time as a

Volunteer. I'm not going to eradicate extreme poverty on earth. On the other hand, it's your job.

And to me, if I feel like I can help you even just a tiny little bit, that's my contribution. And what I

love about the whole idea of the EthicalCoach program is really getting the coaches to help. Help

in a way that you're using your skills, your unique skills. You’re leveraging your unique skills. And

there's a lot of volunteer things I could do that were good, but they don't leverage my talents.

Whereas to me, I've done, I've worked with you, the head of the Red Cross our friend Frances

Hesselbein the head of Girl Scouts. You know the head of the Mayo Clinic. On and on USAID, Raj

Shah, just all kinds of people that for me it's been just a wonderful learning experience.

I've got to say you mentioned changed your life. It totally changed my life. Because, I am going to

say this from a selfish point of view, it makes me feel good about me. Because I feel like I'm

making a difference. And the thing is that you've helped give to my friends Alan and Fred. They

are mega-successful people, they don't need status; they don't need money. They've got all that

stuff right. But you've also given them something, meaning, meaning. And that's... You can't buy

Jim Kim:And so when Alan retired, we had to take the World Bank Group through a huge change exercise,

and Alan came here.

He was here for at least three days I think. Just meeting all the people. And the little inputs that

he would always say, “Well Jim, you know, I think you're doing the right thing, and I think you

know what you're doing. But have you ever thought about this?” And the things he told me were

absolutely transformational.

Fred Hassan, an immigrant from Pakistan, who came and has turned around so many compa-

nies. I think the count is at least five or six. Companies that had major problems that he turned

into major successes. And Fred just gave me such practical advice. Just, he would say things to me

like “You know, Jim the reporting structure is as it is, but it's not the usual. Now you can do it if

you like this way. But normally the reporting structures look like this.”

And it just was so eye-opening. And so, you know at the level of just sort of how you approach

leadership but also very specific inputs. And I just, because he had done so many turnarounds,

that the input from people like Alan and Fred are just invaluable. Because they've been there.

And when you rise up to the top of an organization often it's really hard to get good feedback.

And so it's lonely. And so to have Fred and Alan come in to give that kind of advice. You know,

also you know, charging exactly what you do Marshall, which is zero. And spending so much time

with my team. It was something that I will forever be grateful for.

Marshall:Well, you know, I think a lesson to the other coaches, hopefully listening to us right now is - Don't

be who you're not.

I've never run a company before.

Never pretended to run a company, that's not who I am. On the other hand, I think you and a lot

of my clients could benefit from, number one learning from people who have these fantastic

track records like Fred and Alan, who just have off the charts fantastic records.

Number two just being around other people who are like a peer group that you can talk to.

You have also been to two or three of my other dinners and things like that where I have my

other clients. I love doing that because as you said it's, it's lonely at the top. You don't have a

thousand people you can share everything with. It's nice to be around other people who've been

in important positions. As a coach, I don't know what it's like to be a CEO. On the other hand, they

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

constantly sort of bring me back to a place of humility and learning and understanding that no

matter how good you think you are, no matter how much you think you've improved, there's

always a long way to go.

Marshall:There’s always a long way to go for all of us.

You know one thing that I've tried to do is really have my clients talk to each other. I find that

adds so much value. And a couple of wonderful people that I've coached over the years have also

pitched in to try to help the World Bank a little bit. And that would be my good friend Alan Mulally

and Fred Hassan. Can you share a little bit about what it's like to be around these guys too?

Jim Kim:Well, let's start with Alan. You know Marshall you took us to see Alan Mulally when he was still

CEO of Ford, and I was just, I've never met a leader of that much commitment and vision and just

excellence in terms of leading an organization. I've never seen anyone. First of all transform an

organization as much as he transformed Ford.

But then do it with, with not anger or toughness or you know sort of ruthlessness that you hear

so much about. You know the reason they got better is because there was a tough leader. It was

through smiling; it was through caring about everyone it was through being a person where you

know when he walks through the halls that the janitors and the people who serve food they all

know him. He knows their names. It was it was a revolution that happened in Ford. But it was a

revolution that was a mixture of warmth and compassion linked to just an absolute set of moral

and ethical standards that everyone knew they could not violate.

And so I came away from that thinking oh my goodness this is the greatest leader I've ever seen

in action. I could never be that good, but maybe I can learn a few things.

Marshall:And get better.

Jim Kim:My name is Jim Yong Kim. I'm currently the 12th president of the World Bank Group. I’m trained

as a physician and anthropologist. I was born in 1959 in Korea. The Republic of Korea. At a time

when it was one of the poorest countries in the world. And the great irony is that when I was born

in Korea in 1959, the World Bank refused to give loans to Korea because it thought that Korea

was such a hopeless country that it wouldn't be able to pay back even the lowest interest loans. It

wasn't until I was about four years old that Korea got its first loan from the World Bank Group.

I spent most of my life in some of the poorest countries, poorest communities in the world, in

Haiti, in Peru, and Mexico, many countries in Africa. And the focus has been to provide health and

education for the poorest and also to do it in a way that made a point. And the point was that it

was the nature of our responsibility as physicians and anthropologists and academics, but really

as human beings to think about the lives of the poorest and then to continue to ask ourselves -

“well, well what should we do? And what has to be done next?” And so as a physician I could have

stayed sort of in a clinic caring for patients. But at some point, I decided that the role for me

would be to try to lead organizations and lead others so that we can have a bigger impact.

And that's when I started becoming very interested in leadership. And about, gosh it's almost a

decade ago now, I met Marshall. And Marshall completely changed my life. And completely

changed the way I thought, not only about leadership but about how I could bring the lessons I

learned from Marshall to large organizations. At first, it was it was Dartmouth College, where I

was president for three years, but then now the World Bank Group. And I think there is, there

was a great suspicion of leadership, in leadership training at the World Bank Group. Especially

among the Ph.D. economists who really run this place.

You know academics tend to have a deep suspicion about leadership. And when I was a Dart-

mouth, you know, I'll never forget one of the professors told me when I talked about the impor-

tance of leadership for our students, she said: “you know we hate leadership.”

I said “What do you mean you hate leadership?” And she said, “leadership suggests followership.”

And what we do as scholars is we teach young people not to follow anybody. And this was an

exact quote from one of the professors, and so there's a lot of professors, would be professors or

people who would be professors here at the World Bank. But I think that we've really turned the

tide now. Because the most important thing we've seen, is we've seen people who are literally in

trouble as leaders, get a coach and then get better. And we've had some just remarkable cases

where they went from having the worst ratings from the people who report to them to the best.

So the culture here is changing. It takes time to change cultures like this.

But I just can't tell you how much my life has been changed by having someone like Marshall

whose mission is the eradication of extreme poverty on Earth. So I feel such a privilege to be able

to work with both of these people. Honored to be here and I think you're going to find today just

a great opportunity to learn from a fantastic leader.

I'd like to briefly introduce myself and then introduce my great friend Dr. Jim Kim. We'll get

started. My name is Marshall. I'm from a small town called Valley Station, Kentucky. I got an

undergraduate degree in Mathematical Economics at a little engineering school, Rose Altman

Institute of Technology. Then I went and got an MBA at Indiana University, Ph.D. at UCLA Ander-

son School. And I was a college professor, and Dean - was very very young.

Then for the last 40 years, I do four things, I travel around the world giving talks and teaching

classes. I just went to my hundredth country - Vietnam. That's great. Eleven million frequent flyer

miles. Then I coach executives. So I'm privileged to be the coach of the president of the World

Bank here Dr. Jim Kim. And Alan Mulally a good friend who was CEO of Ford, and I have coached

the CEOs of Pfizer, Glaxo and the World Bank and many many wonderful people.

What I, as a coach, love about coaching is I learned so much. In theory, I'm supposed to teach my

clients, but in practice, I learn far, far more than I teach.

Then the third thing I do is I write books and articles so I have done thirty-six books I think, and

three popular books. And then I give everything away. I do videos, and audios and put everything

online.

And now I'm in the process of a project called A Hundred Coaches which I just love. And the

genesis of the project is I just decided to basically adopt people and teach them all I know for free

and the only price is when they get old they get to do the same thing. And I'm very happy that

14,000 people applied so far. And you've met a lot of these people.

Wonderful, wonderful, good people, good-hearted people, smart people. So very, very honored.

And today we're going to talk with my good friend Dr. Jim Kim. A few conversation topics.

One is a little bit about your history in your life. I'll say a little bit, and then I'm going to hand it

over to you. Then number two is a little bit about your journey as a leader. How you got to where

you are, some of the things, you've done. Then we’re going to talk about coaching. We're going to

talk about, potentially, the role of coaches in doing kind of like what I'm doing with you. Helping

people in a pro bono way. Trying to make the world a little better. And I'm a great believer in the

concept of this, so that's pretty much our topic.

So great. Well, let's get started. Brief Introduction to my friend Dr. Jim Kim. Well, in fact, I think I

am not going to do that. I’ll have you introduce yourself. I think you can carry this ball.

When it comes to transformative leadership, massive contribution and the drive and ability to

create positive change on a global scale, we could not think of a more powerful combination than

these two brilliant minds.

In this video interview, Marshall Goldsmith and Dr. Kim will take you behind the scenes of their

coaching engagement, revealing how coaching has dramatically shifted Dr. Kim’s leadership style

and with it the organizational structure and levels of impact the World Bank Group is able to

achieve.

You will learn why Marshall has been happily coaching Dr. Kim for free for almost a decade,

which leadership approach created the most impact, why Dr. Kim calls Marshall “the greatest

leadership coach on earth” and much more.

Marshall:Welcome to the World Business and Executive Coach Summit. This is a fantastic opportunity to

learn from some of the top coaches in the world. As a coach, I've had the privilege, now, of doing

two sessions with WBECS that focus on my clients. Two wonderful clients. One Alan Mulally,

former CEO of Ford Motor Company was ranked 2014 number three greatest leader in the world

in Fortune Magazine. CEO of the year in the United States.

And then today Dr. Jim Kim, the president of the World Bank - one of the most important posi-

tions on earth. A person who's worked with all of the great leaders around the world. A person

given to me and also the wonderful support you've given to all the coaches that I'm working with.

Jim Kim:Marshall, thank you. But I mean I'm so indebted to you. I mean it's been almost a decade now

that you've been coaching me for free. I don't make a single significant decision in my life without

talking to you for a long time about it.

And let me just say you know for those, the coaches who begin thinking about doing what you've

done, and giving back and coaching others. There is some; you may find some resistance. But I

say send people the Atul Gawande article. And the Atul Gawande article was great for me to read

it because I'd already gone down that path. But I sent this to a lot of people. People who say

coaching does that really work? Well I mean the people who every single day their bottom line

depends on whether or not leaders can lead. You know they understand coaching.

But in the nonprofit world, I think that in many ways what the nonprofits are trying to do is just as

important if not more important than what the big companies are doing. And so even if they're

not banging down your door to lead them. If you have friends if you know people who are in the

nonprofit world just send them the Atul Gawande article, say you know coaching is important,

and anyone can get better. And just the notion that anyone can get better including me might be

the first most, the first and maybe most important step you take in actually being a better leader.

Marshall:Thank you.

Jim Kim:Thank you, Marshall, thank you.

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