Two Neglected Interviews with Karl Marx

8/13/2019 Two Neglected Interviews with Karl Marx

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S&S Quarterly, Inc.

Guilford Press

Two Neglected Interviews with Karl MarxAuthor(s): Karl Marx, Philip S. Foner and R. LandorReviewed work(s):Source: Science & Society, Vol. 36, No. 1 (Spring, 1972), pp. 3-28Published by: Guilford PressStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40401612.

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TWO NEGLECTED INTERVIEWSWITH KARL MARXPHILIP S. FONERDURING THE 1870s he American ressfeaturedinterviewsithKarlMarx.The first aspublishedn theNewYorkWorld fJuly 8,1871 nd the econdntheChi-cagoTribune fJanuary, 1879.The NewYorkWorld nterviewwasreprintedn Woodhull& Claflin'sWeekly New York)onAugust 2,1871, ndhasnever ince eenreprintednEnglish. x-cerptsrom heChicago ribune nterviewppearedn TheSocial-ist,nEnglish-languagergan f he ocialistaborPartyn ts ssueofJanuary1, 1879, nd a complete erman ranslationppearedintheNewYorker olkszeitungfJanuary0,1879,with xcerpts(also nGerman)n VorboteChicago) fJanuary1,1879. t ap-peared gain n Germann theArchiv rSozialgeschichteHan-nover), and5, 1965,withnotes yBertAndreas,nder hetitle,"Marxberdie SPD, BismarcknddasSozialisen-gesetz,"nd inEnglishn theWeekly eople (New York)December 3 and 30,1967,withnotes yLouis Lazarus.Mr.Lazarushadfurnishedhetext fthe nterviewotheArchivnHannover.KarlMarx, fcourse,wasno strangeroAmericans hentheinterviews ere first ublished. etween 851and 1862,he hadserved s oneoftheforeignorrespondentsftheNewYorkTrib-une, eaching00,000ubscribersithhisarticles.ome arried issignature,lthoughome ppearedsfrom he London orrespond-ent," nda numberwere venpublisheds editorials.1uring heCivilWar,Marx'sname becamefurthernownbecauseof theaddressesromhe nternationalorkingmen'sssociationo Presi-dentAbraham incoln ledginghe upportftheEuropeanwork-

1 Morton Borden, "Some Notes on Horace Greeley,Charles Dana and Karl Marx,"JournalismQuarterly,XXXIV, 1957,457-65.3


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4 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYingclassfor heUnioncause.2 fter hewar, hecontactsetweenAmericanabor nd the .W.A. addedto theknowledgefMarxand hiswork,ndby1870 hree ectionsfthe nternationalntheUnitedStates- German, French,nd a Bohemian- ade thename fMarx venmorewidely nown. ythis ime, oo,many fMarx'swritings,ncludingasKapital,were vailablentheUnitedStates,ndwhile hefirstolume fMarx'smonumentalork idnotappear n English ntil1887,English-languagextracts erepublishedn The Socialistnd theLaborStandard etween 876and 1878.3ItwastheParisCommune,owever,hat roughtMarx'snameto theattentionfmanyAmericans ho had neverbefore eardof theprominentevolutionaryeader. he Commune astheob-jectof slanderndcalumnyn theAmericanress,ndalongwiththiswent campaign f vilificationf the Internationalnd itsforemostpokesman,arlMarx.4AlthoughMarxwasresidingnLondon,he waspictureds directingheCommune rom erlinwhere e wasalsosaid tobe functionings theprivateecretaryfBismarck.ll ofthis, owever,adtheeffectfarousinguriosityastowhatMarx eallyhoughtbout heCommunend edAmeri-can newspaperso assign orrespondentso seekinterviewsiththe eader fthe nternational.he NewYorkHerald's orrespond-entproceededo distortMarx's tatementsn theCommunendthe nternational,ndtheHeraldrefusedopublishMarx's eplyto "thetrash ndpositive alsehoods"hichhe chargedtscorre-spondent ithhaving ttributedo him.5However,n interviewwithMarxpublishedn theNewYorkWorld fJuly 8,1871 p-pearedwithoutmutilation,ndgaveAmericaneaders clearpic-ture fhisviews n theCommunendthe oleofthe nternational.Among ther oints,Marx xplainedhattwas bsurd oattributetheParisCommuneothe nternational,hich edescribeds "notproperly governmentor heworkinglass t all" but"a bandof2 Documents of the First International: The General Council of the First Interna-tional,1864-1866,Moscow,n.d.,50, 53, 57, 60, 68, 69, 94, 96.3 Philip S. Foner, "Marx's Capital in the United States/' Science & Society,XXXI,Fall, 1967,461-66.4 Samuel Bernstein, American Labor and the Paris Commune," Ibid., Spring,1951,154-60.5 New YorkSun, Sept.9, 1871.


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TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 5unionrather han controllingorce." he International as nota conspiracy,or tsaim,openly roclaimed, as "theeconomicalemancipationf theworking lassby theconquest f politicalpower."The ChicagoTribune nterviewithMarx (really compositeof severalnterviews)ccurredt a timeofincreasingnterestnSocialistdeas n this ountry.rom1873to 1878thenation x-periencedheworst conomic eclinen itshistoryp to that ime,and,as the U.S. CommissionerfLaborpointed ut,one of theeffectsf thedevastatingconomicrisiswas that itstimulatedhestudy fpanics nddepressionso a greaterxtent hananypre-ceding eriod."6nevitably,hediagnosisf the apitalistystemytheworld's reatestocialisthinkerttractedttention.hen too,theanti-Socialistawspushed hroughheReichstagyBismarckin 1878 rousednterestn the deasofthebannedSocialDemo-cratic arty fGermanyndthose f itschief deologist howaslivingn exilein England.Hencethepublicationf the"Inter-viewswith heCorner-StonefModern ocialism,"s theChicagoTribuneheadlined hearticle,s notat all surprising.he onlysurprisinghingboutthe nterview,s wellas theonewhich p-peared ight ears eforen theNewYorkWorld,s that oth houldsolonghavebeen gnored.Except or he liminationf ubheadingshichn theoriginalwere art fthetext utherehavebeenrun n,the nterviewsp-pear xactlys theywerepublishedn 1871 nd 1879.Explanatorynoteshavebeenfurnished herevert was deemednecessaryoprovidenformationn personalitiesndevents eferredo in theinterviews.LincolnUniversity,ennsylvania philip s. foner6 FirstAnnual Report of the U.S. Commissioner f Labor, 1886, p. 60.


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6 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYTHE CURTAIN RAISED

Interview ithKarlMarx,theHead ofL'InternationaleREVOLT OF LABORAGAINSTCAPITAL

The Two Faces ofL'Internationale-ransformationf Society-ItsProgressntheUnited tatesWhat heAssociation ad toDo With heCommune,c.

LONDON, July .- You haveaskedme to find ut somethingabout he nternationalssociation,ndI have ried o do so.Theenterprises a difficultne justnow.London s indisputablyheheadquartersf theassociation,ut theEnglish eoplehavegota scare, nd smell nternationaln everythings KingJamesmeltgunpowderfterhefamous lot.1 he consciousnessf the ocietyhasnaturallyncreased ith hesuspiciousnessfthepublic;andifthosewhoguide t havea secret okeep, hey re of thestampofmenwhokeep secretwell. havecalledon twoof theiread-ingmembers,avetalkedwith nefreely,ndI heregiveyouthesubstancefmy onversation.havesatisfied yselff one thing,thatt sa societyfgenuineworking-men,utthat heseworkmenaredirectedysocialandpolitical heoristsfanother lass.Onemanwhom saw, leadingmemberfthecouncil,wassittingthisworkman'senchduring urinterview,nd left ff alkingome from ime to timeto receive complaint,eliveredn nocourteousone, rom neofthemanyittlemastersntheneighbor-hood whoemployed im. have heardthis ameman makeelo-quent peechesnpublic nspiredn every assagewith heenergyofhatetowardsheclasses hat all themselvesisrulers. under-stoodthespeechesfter hisglimpse t thedomesticife of theorator. e must avefelt hat ehad brains nough o haveorgan-izeda working-government,ndyetherehe wasobliged o devotehis ife othemost evoltingaskwork f a mechanicalrofession.He wasproud ndsensitive,ndyet teveryurnhehadtoreturn1 The Gunpowder Plot was a plot to destroythe King, Lords, and Commons in re-venge for the penal laws against Catholics. As Guy Fawkes, the agent of the con-spirators,was about to firebarrels of gunpowder,which had been placed underthe House of Commons,he was seized, November5, 1605. Hence November 5 isknown n Englishhistory s GuyFawkesDay.


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TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 7a bow for gruntnda smile or commandhat tood n aboutthe ame evel n the caleofcivility ith huntsman'sall tohisdog.Thismanhelpedmetoa glimpsefone sideofthenature fthe nternational,heresult f laboragainst apital, f the work-manwhoproducesgainst he middleman hoenjoys.Here wasthehand hatwould mite ardwhen hetime ame, ndas totheheadthat lans, think sawthat, oo, n my nterviewithDr.KarlMarx.

Dr.KarlMarx sa Germanoctor fphilosophy2ith Germanbreadthfknowledgeerived othfrombservationfthe ivingworld nd from ooks. should onclude hathehas never eenaworkerntheordinaryense fthe erm. is surroundingsndap-pearancere those fa well-to-do anof themiddle lass.3 hedrawing-roomntowhich wasusheredn thenight fmy nter-viewwouldhaveformedery omfortableuartersor thrivingstockbrokerhohad madehiscompetencendwasnowbeginningto makehisfortune.t was comfortersonified,heapartmentfa manoftastendofeasymeans, ut withnothingn itpeculiarlycharacteristicf itsowner.A fine lbum ofRhineviewson thetable,however,avea cluetohisnationality.peered autiouslyinto hevaseon the ide-tableor bomb. sniffedorpetroleum,but the mellwas thesmell f roses. crept ackstealthilyomyseat, ndmoodilywaitedheworst.He has enterednd greetedme cordially,nd we are sittingface oface. es, amtete-a-teteith herevolutionncarnate,iththe ealfounderndguidingpiritfthe nternationalociety, iththe uthor fthe ddressnwhich apitalwas told hat f twarredon labor tmust xpect o have tshouseburned own bout tsears-n a word,with heapologist or heCommune fParis.DoyourememberhebustofSocrates,heman whodiesratherhanprofess isbelief n thegodsofthetime- he man withthefinesweep fprofileor heforeheadunningmeanlyt theend intoa littlenub, urled-upeatureikea bisectedothookhat ormedthenose?Takethisbust nyourmind's ye, olor hebeardblack,dashingthere nd there ith uffsfgrey; lapthehead husmadeona portlyody fthemiddle eight,ndtheDoctorsbefore ou.2 Marx was awarded a degree of Doctor of Philosophy by the University f Jena in1841. His undergraduateworkwas done at the Universities f Bonn and Berlin.3 Marx's house in Maitland Park Road was a comfortabledwelling and very roomy.


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8 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYThrow veilover heupper art f he ace ndyoumighteinthecompanyfa bornvestryman.evealtheessentialeature,he m-mense row,ndyouknow t oncethatyouhaveto dealwith hatmost ormidablefall compositeorces- dreamer hothinks,thinker hodreams.Another entlemanccompaniedr. Marx, German,oo,believe,hough rom isgreat amiliarityith ur anguage can-notbesure f t.4Was hea witnessn thedoctor'side? thinko.The "Council/*5earingf the nterview, ight ereafterall ontheDoctor or is ccountf t,for heRevolutionsabove llthingssuspiciousf ts gents. ere, hen, ashis videncen corroboration.I went traightomybusiness.he world, said, eemed obein thedark bout the nternational,atingtverymuch, utnotabletosay learly hat hingt hated. ome,whoprofessedohavepeered urtherntothegloom han heir eighbors,eclared hatthey admade ut sort fJanus igure ith fair,onest orkman'ssmile n one of tsfaces,nd onthe ther murderous,onspirator'sscowl.Wouldhe light p thecaseofmysterynwhich hetheorydwelt?The professoraughed,huckled little fancied,t the houghtthatwewere ofrightenedfhim. There s nomysteryoclearup,dear ir,"hebegan,na very olished ormftheHansBreitmanndialect, except erhaps hemysteryfhuman tupidityn thosewhoperpetuallygnore hefact hat urassociationsa public neandthat hefullesteportsf tsproceedingsrepublishedor llwhocaretoreadthem. oumaybuyour rules or penny,ndashillingaidout npamphlets ill teachyoualmostsmuch boutusas weknow urselves.R.-Almost-es, erhapso; but will notthe omethingshallnotknow onstitutehe ll-importanteservation?o bequitefrankwithyou, ndtoputthecaseas itstrikesn outside bserver,hisgeneral laimofdepreciationfyoumustmeansomething orethan he gnorantll-willfthemultitude. nd t is stillpertinent4 The other "gentleman"was probably FriedrichEngels who was also in London,and oftenwent to Marx's house. Engels spoke English well.5 The "Council" was the General Council of the InternationalWorkingmen'sAsso-ciation, ts leading bodywhich metweekly n London and correspondedwithwork-ers' groups n othercountries.


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TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 9toask even fterwhatyouhavetoldme,what s the nternationalSociety?Dr.M-You haveonly o look at the ndividualsf which t iscomposed-workmen.R.-Yes,butthe soldier eed be no exponentfthestatecraftthat etshim nmotion. know ome fyourmembers,ndI canbelieve hat heyrenotofthe tufffwhich onspiratorsre made.Besides, secrethared ya millionmenwouldbe no secret tall.Butwhat fthesewere nly he nstrumentsnthehands fa bold,and I hopeyouwill forgiveme foradding,not over-scrupulousconclave.Dr. M- There snothingoprovet.R.- The lastParis nsurrection?6Dr. M.- demand irstlyheproofhat herewas nyplot tail-that nything appened hatwasnotthe egitimateffectf thecircumstancesf themoment;r theplotgranted, demand heproofsftheparticipationnit of the nternationalssociation.

R.- The presencen thecommunalodyofso manymembersof he ssociation.Dr.M.- Then twas plot f heFreemasons,oo, or heirharein thework s individuals asbyno means slight ne. shouldnotbe surprised,ndeed, ofind hePopesettingownthewholeinsurrectiono their ccount. uttrynotherxplanation.he in-surrectionn Pariswasmadebytheworkmenf Paris.The ablestoftheworkmen ust ecessarilyavebeen ts eadersndadminis-trators;utthe blest ftheworkmenappen lsotobe membersofthe nternationalssociation.etthe ssociations suchmay nnowayberesponsibleor heirction.R.- It willstill eemotherwiseo theworld. eopletalkof se-cret nstructionsrom ondon, nd evengrants fmoney. an itbe affirmedhat heallegedopennessf theassociation'sroceed-ings recludesll secrecyfcommunication?Dr.M.-What ssociationver ormedarriedn itsworkwith-outprivates wellas public gencies?ut totalkof secretnstruc-tionfrom ondon, s ofdecreesn thematter f faith ndmoralsfromomecentre fPapal dominationnd intrigues wholly o6 The "Paris nsurrection"eferredo the seizure fpowerbytheworkinglass onMarch18,1871, nd theestablishmentf the ParisCommune. he Commune ellon May28, 1871.


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10 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYmisconceivehenature fthe nternational.his would mplycentralizedorm fgovernmentfthe nternational,hereasherealform s designedlyhatwhich ives hegreatestlayto localenergyndindependence.n fact he nternationalsnotproperlya governmentor heworkinglass t all. t isa bond funion atherthan controllingorce.R.-Andof union owhat nd?Dr. M.-The economicalmancipationftheworkinglassbythe onquestfpolitical ower. he use ofthat olitical ower othe ttainmentf ocial nds. t isnecessaryhat ur aims hould ethus omprehensiveoinclude veryorm fworkinglass ctivity.To havemade hem f special haracter ouldhavebeentoadaptthem o theneedsofone section-ne nation fworkmenlone.Buthow ould llmenbe asked ounite ofurtherheobjects fafew? o havedonethat he ssociation usthaveforfeitedtstitleof nternational.he association oesnotdictate he formfpo-liticalmovements;t onlyrequires pledge s to their nd. t isa networkfaffiliatedocietiespreadingll overtheworld f a-bor. n eachpart ftheworld ome pecial spect f theproblempresentstself,nd theworkmenhere ddress hemselveso itsconsiderationntheir wnway.Combinationsmongworkmenan-notbeabsolutelydenticalndetail nNewcastlendinBarcelona,inLondon nd nBerlin.n England, ornstance,heway oshowpolitical ower iesopento theworkinglass. nsurrectionouldbemadness here eacefulgitation ouldmore wiftlyndsurelydo thework.n France hundredawsofrepressionnd a moralantagonismetweenlasses eem onecessitateheviolentolutionof ocialwar.The choice fthat olutions the ffairftheworkingclasses f that ountry.he Internationaloesnotpresumeodic-tate n thematterndhardlyo advise.But to everymovementtaccordstssympathynd itsaid within he imits ssigned yitsown laws.R.- Andwhats thenaturefthat id?

Dr.M- To give nexample,neofthe ommonestormsfthemovementoremancipations thatof strikes. ormerly,henastrikeookplace nonecountrytwas defeatedythe mportationofworkmenromnother. he Internationalasnearlytoppedll


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TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 11that.7t receivesnformationfthe ntendedtrike,tspreadshatinformationmongtsmembers,hoat once eethat or hem heseat fthe truggle ust eforbiddenround. he mastersrethusleft loneto reckonwith heirmen. n most ases hemenrequireno other id thanthat.Their ownsubscriptionsr thoseof thesocietiesowhich heyre moremmediatelyffiliatedupplyhemwith unds,utshould hepressure ponthem ecome ooheavyand the trikee oneofwhich he ssociationpproves,heir eces-sitiesre uppliedutofthe ommonurse. ythesemeans strikeofthecigar-makersf Barcelonawasbroughto a victoriousssuetheother ay.Butthe ociety as no interestn strikes,houghtsupportshem nder ertainonditions.t cannot ossiblyain bythemn a pecuniaryoint fview, ut tmay asilyose.Let us sumitall up in a word. he workinglasses emain ooramid the n-crease fwealth, retchedmong he ncreasef uxury. heirma-terial rivationwarfsheirmoral s wellas their hysicaltature.Theycannot ely nothers or remedy.t hasbecome henwiththemn imperativeecessityotake heir wncase n hand.Theymust eviseherelationsetweenhemselvesndthecapitalistsndlandlords,ndthatmeans heymust ransformociety.his is thegeneralndofeverynown orkmen'srganization;andand aborleagues,radendfriendlyocieties,o-operativetoresndco-opera-tiveproductionre but means owardst. To establish perfectsolidarityetweenhese rganizationss the businessf the nter-national ssociation.ts nfluencesbeginningo be felt verywhere.Two paperspreadtsviewsn Spain, hreenGermany,he amenumbern Austria nd in Holland, ix in Belgium,nd six in7 As earlyas the springof 1866,the General Council was activeduring tailors' strikesin Edinburgh and London when it successfullydefeated employers' attempts tobreak the strikesby bringing n recruitsfromGermany."A Warning,"writtenbyMarx, was published in the OberrhenischerCourier of May 15, 1866, urgingGermanworkers o stay away fromEngland and Scotland so as "to prove to othercountriesthat they, ike theirbrothers n France, Belgium and Switzerland,knowhow to defend the common interests f their class and will not become obedientmercenaries f capital in its struggleagainst labour." (Documents of the First In-

ternational, p. cit., 367-68.) In 1869, at the suggestionof Andrew Cameron, dele-gate of the National Labor Union to the InternationalCongressat Basel, the Gen-eral Council establisheda Labor and EmigrationBureau to preventthe emigrationofworkersfromEurope to replace strikersn the United States. (See Samuel Bern-stein,The First International n America,New York, 1965, 35-34.)


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12 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYSwitzerland.8ndnowthat havetoldyouwhat he nternationalisyoumay, erhaps,e in a positionoform our wnopinion sto tspretendedlots.R.- I do notquiteunderstandou.Dr. M.-Do younot eethat heoldsociety, antingtrengthomeet t with ts ownweapons f discussionnd combination,sobliged oresort o the fraud ffixing pon t the mputationfconspiracy?

R.- ButtheFrench olicedeclare hat heyre na positionoprove tscomplicityn the ateaffair,o saynothingfprecedingattempts.Dr. M.- Butwe will say somethingf those ttempts,fyouplease, ecause hey est erve otest hegravityfall thechargesofconspiracyroughtgainsthe nternational.ou rememberhelast plot"butone.A plebisciteadbeen nnounced.9 any ftheelectors ereknown o be wavering.heyhadno longer keensense fthevalueof the mperialule,havingome odisbelieventhose hreatenedangersfsocietyromwhich twassupposedohave aved hem. newbugbearwaswanted. he policeundertooktofind ne.All combinationsfworkmeneinghatefulo them,they aturallywed he nternationaln ill-turn. happy houghtinspiredhem.What ftheyhould elect he nternationalor heirbugbear,ndthus toncediscredithat ocietyndcurryavor orthe mperialause?Outof thathappy houghtametheridiculous"plot" gainsthe mperor'sife-as fwewantedokill hewretchedold fellow. heyseized he eadingmembersf the nternational.Theymanufacturedvidence.heypreparedheir asefor rial,ndin themeantimehey ad their lebiscite.10ut the ntended om-8 The Internationalt this imehad no truly fficialaper n the United tates,heArbeiter-Union,ditedbyAdolphDouai,having xpiredn September,870.Therestillexisted, owever,he semi-officialulletinde l'unionrpublicainend Wood-hull ir Claflin'sWeeklywhich, hough heorganofSection 2 in New YorkCity,was nconflict ith he eaders f the nternational.9 The plebiscite asheldbyNapoleon II on May7, 1870, o confirmome iberalconstitutionalhangesfferedythegovernment,nd toprovide show fpopular

endorsementf theEmpire.The Internationalections dvocated bstentionromvoting.10 On theeveoftheplebiscite,hepolice onducted hreemass rrests fmembersfthe nternational.he trial,nJune-July,870, esultedn prison erms or num-berofthe nternationaleaders.


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TWO INTERVIEWS WITH MARX 13edywas tooobviously ut a broad,coarse farce. ntelligent urope,whichwitnessed hespectacle,wasnotdeceivedfor moment s toitscharacter,ndonlytheFrenchpeasant lectorwas befooled.YourEnglishpapersreported hebeginning f the miserable ffair; heyforgotonotice he end.The Frenchudges, dmittingheexistenceof theplot by officialourtesy, ereobliged to declarethattherewas nothing o showthe complicity f the International.Believeme,the secondplot s like thefirst.he Frenchfunctionarys againinbusiness.He is called n toaccountfor hebiggest ivil movementtheworldhas ever een. A hundred ignsofthe times ughtto sug-gestthe rightexplanation- he growth f intelligence mong theworkmen,fluxury nd incompetencemongtheirrulers, hehis-toricalprocessnowgoingon of thatfinaltransferf powerfromclassto thepeople,theapparentfitnessf time,place,and circum-stancefor thegreatmovement f emancipation.But to have seenthese hefunctionary usthavebeena philosopher,ndhe is onlymouchard.11y the law ofhis being,therefore,e has fallen backupon the mouchard'sexplanation- "conspiracy."His old port-folioofforged ocumentswill supplyhim withtheproofs,nd thistimeEuropein itsscarewillbelievethetale.R.- Europe can scarcelyhelp itself, eeing that everyFrenchnewspaper preadsthereport.Dr. M.- EveryFrenchnewspaperl ee,here s one ofthem (tak-ingup La Situation), nd judge foryourselff thevalue of itsevi-dence as to a matter f fact. Reads] "Dr. Karl Marx,of the Inter-national,has been arrestedn Belgium,trying o makehis waytoFrance.The police of London have long had theireye on thesocietywithwhichhe is connected,nd are nowtaking ctivemeas-uresfor tssuppression." wo sentences nd two ies. You can testthe evidenceofyourown senses.You see that nstead of being inprison n Belgium am at home in England.You must also knowthat the police in England are as powerless o interfere iththeInternational ociety s the societywiththem. Yet what is mostregular n all this s that thereportwill go the roundof the con-tinental resswithout contradiction,nd could continueto do soif wereto circularize veryournalin Europefrom hisplace.11 Stoolpigeon; py; informer.


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14 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYR.-Have you attemptedo contradictmanyof thesefalsereports?Dr.M.-I havedone otill havegrown earyf the abor.Toshowthegross arelessnessithwhich hey re concocted maymentionhatnoneofthem sawFelixPyat etdown sa memberof the nternational.12R.-Andheis not o?Dr.M- The associationouldhardly avefound oomfor uch

a wildman.He was oncepresumptuousnough o issuea rashproclamationnourname, ut t was nstantlyisavowed,hough,to do themustice,hepress fcoursegnoredhedisavowal.R.-AndMazzini,s hea memberfyour ody?13Dr. Marx (laughing)-h,no. We shouldhavemadebutlittleprogressfwehad notgotbeyondhe ange fhis deas.R.-You surpriseme. I should ertainlyavethoughthatherepresentedhemostdvancediews.Dr. M.- He representsothing etter han theold idea of amiddle-classepublic.We seekno partwith he middle lass.Hehasfallen ar o therearofthemodernmovements the Germanprofessors,ho,nevertheless,restill onsideredn Europe s theapostlesfthe ulturedemocratismf thefuture.heywere oatone time- efore48,perhaps, hen he Germanmiddle lass, ntheEnglish ense,had scarcelyttainedts properdevelopment.Butnowthey avegoneoverbodily othereaction,ndtheprole-tariat nowshem o more.R.-Somepeoplehavethoughtheyawsigns fa positivistle-mentnyour rganization.1412 Marx frequently eferred o Flix Pyat as the example of an extremeradical phrase-mongerwho specializedin invocationsto terrorismust beforehe himselfran away.In a letter of May 12, 1871,JennyMarx, Marx's daughter,referred o "knightsofthe phrase like Flix Pyat. . . ." (Hal Draper, editor, Karl Marx and FriedrichEngels, Writingson the Paris Commune,New York and London, 1971, 223.)13 Guiseppe Mazzini (1805-1872)was the founderof "Young Italy" and the EuropeanDemocratic Committeewith the objectiveof unifying taly. His programdemandedthe independenceand unityof Italy under the slogan,"God and the People." Marxfrequently riticizedthe bourgeois characterof Mazzini's program.14 Positivismwas the philosophyof the followersof August Comte, who took fromSaint-Simona religious-likebelief in "positive science," especially "sociology" (aword Comte invented). The Positivistswere bourgeois reformers,nd while theyfavoreda "thoroughmoral adjustmentof the relationsof capital and labor," theyopposed violence.Althoughthe Positivists ondemned ts "repressivemeasures,"they


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TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 15Dr. M- No suchthing.We havepositivistsmongus,and othersnotofourbodywhowork s well.Butthis snotbyvirtue ftheirphilosophy,hichwillhavenothingodowith opular overnment,aswe understandt, nd which eeks nly oput newhierarchynplaceofthe ld one.R._It seems ome,then, hat he eaders fthe newinterna-tionalmovementavehadto form philosophyswell as an asso-ciation or hemselves.

Dr.M.-Precisely.t ishardlyikely,ornstance,hatwecouldhopetoprospern our war gainstapital fwederive urtactics,say rom hepoliticalconomyfMill.15 e hastraced nekind frelationshipetweenaborand capital.We hopeto showthat tispossibleo establishnother.R.-And as toreligion?Dr. M.-On thatpoint cannot peak n thenameoftheso-ciety.myselfman atheist.t isstartling,odoubt,ohear uch navowalnEngland, utthere s some omfortnthe houghthattneednotbemade na whispern either ermanyrFrance.R.-Andyetyoumakeyour eadquartersn this ountry?Dr.M.- Forobvious easons;heright fassociations here nestablishedhing.t exists,ndeed,nGermany,ut tisbesetwithinnumerableifficulties;nFrance ormany earst hasnotexistedat all.R.-And theUnitedStates?Dr. M.- The chief entresf our activityre for thepresentamonghe ld societiesfEurope.Many ircumstancesavehithertotendedopreventhe aborproblemromssumingnall-absorbingimportancen theUnited tates. uttheyrerapidly isappearing,and it is rapidlyoming o thefrontherewith hegrowths inEurope fa laboringlassdistinctromherest f thecommunityanddivorcedromapital.16

werefriendly o the Commune,and praised such legislative cts of the Commune asthe abolition of the standingarmy,the repeal of capital punishment, nd the ad-missionof foreignerso office.15 John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)was the English philosopher and classical economistwhoseviewswere nfluenced ysocialistcriticism.16 On March 5, 1852,Marx wrote to Joseph Weydemeyer hat "bourgeois societymthe United States has not yet developed far enough to make the class struggleobvious and comprehensible." n 1881, however,he wrote to F. A. Sorge that inthe United States "capitalist economyand the correspondingenslavementof the


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16 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYR.-It would seemthat n thiscountry hehoped forsolution,whatevert maybe, will be attainedwithout he violent meansofrevolution. he English system f agitating y platformnd pressuntil minorities ecomeconvertedntomajoritiess a hopeful ign.Dr. M.-I am not so sanguine n thatpointas you.The Englishmiddle classhas always hown tselfwillingenoughto accepttheverdict f themajority o long as it enjoyedthemonopoly f thevotingpower.But markme, as soon as it finds tself utvotedon

what tconsiders italquestionsweshall seehere new slave-owner'swar.I haveheregivenyouas wellas I can rememberhem heheadsofmyconversation ith this remarkableman. I shall leaveyou toformyourown conclusions.Whatevermaybe said foror againstthe probability f its complicitywith the movement f the Com-munewe maybe assuredthat n the InternationalAssociation hecivilizedworldhasa newpower n itsmidstwithwhich t must ooncome toa reckoningor oodorill. R. andorNEW YORK WORLD, July18, 1871

KARL MARXInterviewswith he Corner-StonefModern SocialismHe GivesSomeInformations to theDoings and Objectsof Himself nd His Disciples

The RecentSystem fLand and Capital to GivePlace toa "HigherSocial Condition''Blood WillFlow,Because "No GreatMovementHas EverBeen InauguratedWithoutBloodshed"Bismarck the Ridicule ofAll Statesmen"; nd theRev. JosephCook "a VeryBadly-Informed an"LONDON, Dec. 18.- n a littlevilla at HaverstockHill, in the

northwestortionofLondon, livesKarl Marx,the corner-stonefworking lass have developedmorerapidlyand shamelessly han in any other coun-try." Karl Marx & FrederickEngels, Letters to Americans, 1848-1895,New York,1953,44, 129.)


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TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 17modernocialism. e wasexiled rom isnative ountry-ermany-in 1844,forpropagatingevolutionaryheories.n 1848he re-turned,ut na fewmonths asagain xiled.He then ookup hisabodein Paris,but his political heories rocured is expulsionfrom hat ity n 1849, nd sincethatyearhisheadquartersavebeen nLondon.His convictionsave ausedhim rouble rom hebeginning.udgingromhe ppearancefhishome, heyertainlyhavenotbrought im ffluence.ersistentlyuring ll theseyearshehasadvocated is viewswith n earnestnesshich ndoubtedlyspringsrom firm elief n them, nd,howevermuchwe maydeprecateheir ropagation,e cannot utrespecto a certainx-tent he elf-denialfthenowveneratedxile.Yourcorrespondentas calleduponhimtwice r thrice,ndeachtime heDoctorwas foundnhis ibrary, ith book n onehand nda cigaretten the ther. e must e over 0years fage.17His physiqueswell-knit,assive,nderect.He has theheadofamanof ntellect,ndthefeaturesfa cultivatedew.His hair ndbeard re ong, nd ron-grayncolor.His eyes reglitteringlack,shaded y pairofbushyyebrows.o a strangere shows xtremecaution. foreignerangenerallyainadmission:utthe ncient-lookingGermanwoman18howaitsuponvisitorsas nstructionstoadmit onewhohailfromheFatherland,nless hey ringet-ters f introduction.nce intohis library,owever,nd,havingfixed isoneeye-glassnthe ornerfhiseye,norder otakeyourintellectualreadthnddepth,oto peak, e oses hatelf-restraint,andunfoldsoyou knowledgef men ndthings hroughoutheworldptto nterestne.Andhisconversationoesnotrun nonegroove,ut sas varied s arethevolumes ponhis ibraryhelves.A man angenerallye judgedbythebookshereads,ndyoucanform our wn onclusionshen tellyou casualglance evealedShakespeare,ickens, hackeray, oliere, acine,Montaigne,a-con,Goethe, oltaire,aine;English, merican,rench luebooks;works oliticalndphilosophicalnRussian, erman,panish,tal-ian, tc., tc.Duringmy onversationswas truck ith is ntimacywithAmericanuestions, hichhavebeenuppermosturing he17At the time fthe nterview arxwasmidway etween 0 and 61.18 She was undoubtedly elene Demuth, hehousekeepernd friend f theMarxfamily.


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18 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYpast wenty ears.19is knowledgefthem,nd the urprisingc-curacywithwhich e criticisedurNational nd State egislation,impressedponmymindthefact hathe musthave derived isinformationromnside ources. ut, ndeed, hisknowledgesnotconfinedoAmerica,ut s spread ver heface fEurope.Whenspeakingfhishobby-ocialism- edoesnot ndulgenthosemelo-dramaticlightsenerallyttributedo him,butdwellsuponhisUtopian lans or the mancipationfthehuman ace"with firmconvictionn the ealizationfhistheories,fnot nthis entury,tleastn thenext.Perhaps r.KarlMarx sbetternownnAmerica s the uthorof Capital,"ndthefounderf he nternationalociety,r at eastitsmost rominentillar.20n the nterviewhich ollows,ouwillsee whathesays fthis ocietys it at thepresentime xists. ow-ever,nthemeantime,willgiveyou few xtractsromheprintedgeneral ules f The Internationalociety,ublishedn 1871,byorder ftheGeneral ouncil, romwhich oucanformn impar-tial udgmentf tsaims ndends.The preambleets orthThattheemancipationf theworkinglassesmust e conqueredytheworkinglasses hemselves;hat hestruggleor heemancipationof theworkinglassesmeansnot a struggleor lassprivilegesndmonopolies,utfor qualrightsndduties,ndthe bolitionfallclassrule;that heecumenicalubjectionftheman oflabortothemonopolizerf themeans f abor- hat s,the ources f ife-liesat thebottomfservituden all itsforms,fall socialmisery,19 Marxwas in frequentorrespondenceithAmerican ocialists nd gainedcon-siderable nowledgerom heir etters bouteventsn theUnitedStates.n addi-tion, hey uppliedhim withAmerican ewspapers,ooksand officialeports.nthis onnection,t is interestingoreadhimwritingo Sorge n October 9,1877:"A fewyears go (notmany) sortof Blue Bookwas published I don'tknowwhetherfficialr not)on the conditionsf theminersn Pennsylvaniaholive,as we know, n the mostfeudaldependence pon the moneylordsI think hethingwaspublished fter hebloody onflict).t is of thegreatestmportanceorme to have thispublication,nd ifyoucan get t forme I will sendyouwhat tcosts. f not,perhapsyoucan getme the title, nd I shall then ask Harney inBoston)." Letters o Americans,p. cit.,p. 117.)The "bloody onflict"efersothePennsylvania iners'longstrike f 1875"broken yhungernd force.George

JulianHarney,eaderofthe eftwingof theChartistsnd a member ftheFirstInternational,ad emigratedo the United tates,nd furnished arx withmuchmaterial ublishedn this ountry.20 The "Internationalociety" as the nternational orkingmen'sssociation,ound-edin 1864.


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TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 19mental egradation,ndpolitical ependence;hat ll effortsim-ing ttheuniversalmancipationf theworkinglasses avehith-ertofailed romwant fsolidarityetweenhemanifoldivisionsof abor n eachcountry,"ndthepreambleallsfor the mmedi-atecombinationfthe tilldisconnected ovements."t goesontosay hat he nternationalssociationcknowledgenorights ith-outduties, o dutieswithout ights,"-husmaking verymembera worker. he AssociationasformedtLondon toafford cen-tralmediumf ommunicationndco-operationetween heWork-ingmen'societiesn thedifferentountries,iming t the sameend,namely:heprotection,dvancementndcomplete mancipa-tion ftheworkinglasses."Eachmember,"hedocument urthersays, ofthe nternationalssociation,n removing is domicilefromnecountryoanother, ill receive he fraternalupportftheassociated orkingmen."TheSocietyonsistsf General ongress,hichmeet nnually;a General ouncil,which ormsan internationalgency etweenthedifferentational nd localgroups f theAssociation,o thattheworkingmennonecountryanbe constantlynformedf themovementsf their lass n every ther ountry."his Councilreceivesndactsuponapplicationf newBranchesr Sectionsojointhe nternational,ecides ifferencesrising etweenhe Sec-tions,nd, nfact,o useanAmericanhrase,runs hemachine."Theexpensesf heGeneral ouncil redefrayedy nannual on-tributionf nEnglish enny ermember.hen comes heFederalCouncils rCommittees,nd ocalSections,n thevariousountries.The FederalCouncils re boundto sendonereportt least verymonth o the GeneralCouncil, nd every hreemonths reporton the dministrationndfinancialtate ftheir espectiveranches.Wheneverttacksgainsthe nternationalsrepublished,henear-estBranch rCommittees boundtosend t oncea copy fsuchpublicationo the GeneralCouncil.The formationf FemaleBranchesmong heworkinglassess recommended.The GeneralCouncil ompriseshefollowing: . Applegarth,M. T. Boon, redrickradnick,. H. Buttery,. Dalahaye, ugeneDupont onmission),WilliamHales,G. Harris,Hurliman, ulesJohannard,arriet aw,Frederickessner, ochner, harles on-guet, .Martin,evyMaurice, enryMayo,GeorgeMilner, harlesMurray,fander,ohnRoach,Rubt. adler, owell tepney,lfred


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20 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYTaylor,W. Townsend,F. Vaillant,JohnWeston.The Correspond-ingSecretaries or the variouscountries re: Leo Frankel, orAus-triaand Hungary;A. Herman,Belgium;T. Mottersbend,21en-mark; A. Serraillier,France; Karl Marx, Germanyand Russia;Charles Rochat, Holland; J. P. McDonnell,22reland; FrederickEngels, taly and Spain; WaleryWroblewski,23oland; HermannJung,Switzerland;J. G. Eccarius,United States;Le Moussu,forFrenchbranches f UnitedStates.

During myvisitto Dr. Marx I alluded to the platform ivenbyC. Bancroft avis in his officialeport f 1877,24s theclearestand most onciseexposition fSocialism hat had seen.He said itwas taken from hereportof the Socialistreunionat Gotha,Ger-many, n May,1875.The translation as incorrect,e said,and hevolunteered correction, hich appendas he dictated:25First-Universal,direct, nd secretsuffrageorall males over20 years, or ll elections,Municipaland State.Second-Directlegislationby thepeople.War and peace to bemadebydirectpopularvote.Th rd-Universal bligation o militiaduty.No standing rmy.Fourth-Abolitionof all special egislation egarding ress awsand public meetings.Fifth- Legal emediesfreeof expense.Legal proceedings o beconductedbythepeople.Six h- Education to be by the State,- eneral,obligatory,ndfree.Freedomofscience nd religion.Seventh-All indirect axesto be abolished.Moneyto be raisedforState and Municipalpurposesbydirectprogressivencometax.21 The correctname is Thomas Mottershead.22 The correctname is P. J.McDonnell.23 The correctname is ValryWroblewski.24 The reference s to the official eportof Charles BancroftDavis, U.S. MinistertoGermany.It was addressed to Hamilton Fish, Secretaryof State under PresidentGrant,and is published in United StatesStateDepartment. Papers Relating to For-eignRelations ofthe UnitedStates,Washington,1877,175-80.25 The text as it appears in the interview s taken fromthe original protocolof 1875.However,Marx omittedthe last demand calling forreligionto be a privatematter.

He believed this demand to be "bourgeois," and, in his recommendations o theGermanWorkingClass Party n 1875,he had suggestedthat in theirprogramtheydemand freedom f thoughtfromthe "religiousghost."Also missing s the demandin the preamble of the Gotha Programmefor"the selfmanagement f all workers'social funds."


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TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 21Eighth- reedomfcombinationmong heworkinglasses.Ninth- he legaldayof aborformento be defined.he workofwomen obe limited,ndthat f childreno be abolished.Tenth- anitaryaws fortheprotectionf life and health flaborers,ndregulationftheir wellingsndplaces f abor, o beenforcedypersonselectedythem.Elvent-Suitable rovisionespectingrison-labor.In Mr.Bancroftavis* eport here s a Twelfth lause,themostmportantfall,which eads: State id andcredit or ndus-trial ocieties,nder emocraticirection."asked heDoctorwhyheomittedhis,ndhereplied:"When hereunion ookplaceatGotha,n 1875, here xisteda divisionmonghe ocialDemocrats.he onewingwere artisansofLassalle;26he thers,hosewhohadacceptedngeneralhepro-gramme f the Internationalrganization,nd were called theEisenach arty. hat twelfthointwasnotplacedon theplatformbutplaced n thegeneralntroductionywayof concessionotheLassallians. fterwardst was never poken f.Mr.Davis does notsay hatt wasplaced ntheprogrammes a compromiseaving oparticularignificance,utgravelyuts t in as one of thecardinalprinciplesftheprogramme/"But," said, Socialistsenerallyookuponthetransformationofthemeans f abor ntothecommon ropertyfsocietys thegrand limax fthemovement.""Yes;wesay hat hiswillbe the utcomefthemovement,ut

it willbe a questionftime, feducation,ndthe nstitutionfahigherocial tatus.""Thisplatform,"remarked,applies nly oGermanyndoneortwo therountries.""Ah "hereturned,ifyoudrawyour onclusionsrom othingbutthis, ouknownothingf the ctivityftheparty.Many f tspoints avenosignificanceutside fGermany.pain,Russia, ng-26 Ferdinand Lassalle (1825-1864)was the Germanlawyerand labor leader who found-ed the General German Workers Union in 1863,and was criticizedby Marx as anadvocate of opportunism n German Social-Democracy.For a detailed characteriza-tion of Lasalle byMarx,see his letter to Kugelmann,Feb. 23, 1865, n The SelectedCorrespondenceof Karl Marx and FrederickEngels, 1846-1895, New York, 1942,193-97.


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22 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYland, and Americahave platformsuited to theirpeculiardifficul-ties.The only imilarityn them s theend to be attained.""Andthat s the upremacyf abor?""That is theemancipation f labor.""Do EuropeanSocialists ookupon themovementn America sa seriousone?""Yes; it is the naturaloutcome of the country's evelopment.It hasbeen said that hemovement as been imported y foreigners.When labor movements ecamedisagreeablen England,fifty earsago,the amethingwassaid; and thatwaslongbefore ocialismwasspokenof. n America, ince 1857only,has the abormovement e-come conspicuous.Then Trades-Unionsbegan to flourish; henTrades-Assemblies ereformed,n whichthe workersn differentindustries nited; and afterthatcame National Labor Unions.27Ifyouconsider hischronological rogress, ouwill see thatSocial-ismhassprung p in that ountrywithout heaid offoreigners,ndwasmerely ausedbythe concentrationfcapitaland thechangedrelations etween he workmennd their mployers.""Now," askedyourcorrespondent,whathas Socialismdone sofar?""Two things,"he returned. Socialistshave shownthe generaluniversalstrugglebetween capital and labor,- he cosmopolitancharacter,n one word,- nd consequentlyried to bringabout anunderstanding etweenthe workmen n the differentountries,which became morenecessary s the capitalists ecame more cos-mopolitan n hiring abor,pitting oreign gainstnative abornotonlyin America,but in England,France,and Germany.nterna-tional relations prangup at once betweentheworkingmenn thedifferentountries,howing hatSocialismwas notmerely local,but an international roblem,to be solved by the internationalactionofworkmen. he working lassmovedspontaneously, ith-outknowingwhattheendsofthemovementwill be. The Socialistsinventno movement, ut merely ell the workmenwhat its char-acter nd its endswillbe.""Which meansthe overthrowingf the present ocial system,"I understand.27 For the growthof the American abor movement fterthe panic of 1857,see PhilipS. Foner,Historyof the Labor Movement in the United States, , New York, 1947,2400e.


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TWO INTERVIEWS WITH MARX 23"This system f land and capitalin thehands of employers,ntheone hand,"he continued, and the mereworking ower n thehandsofthe aborers o sell as a commodity, e claim is merely nhistorical hase,which will pass awayand give place to a highersocial condition.We see everywhere divisionof society.The an-tagonismfthetwoclassesgoeshandin hand withthedevelopmentof the industrial esources f moderncountries. roma Socialisticstandpointhemeansalready xistto revolutionize hepresenthis-

toricalphase.Upon Trades-Unions,n manycountries, ave beenbuiltpolitical rganizations.n America heneedof an independentWorkingmen'sartyhas been made manifest. hey can no longertrust oliticians. ingsandcliqueshave seizedupontheLegislature,andpoliticshas beenmadea trade.But America snotalone in this,only tspeople are moredecisivethanEuropeans.Things come tothe urface uicker.There is lesscant andhypocrisyhanthere s onthis ideof theocean."I askedhim to giveme a reasonforthe rapid growth f theSocialist artynGermany, henhereplied:"The present ocialisticparty ame last. Theirswas not the Utopian schemewhichmadesomeheadwayn France ndEngland.The Germanmind sgiven otheorizing,more than that of otherpeoples. From previousex-periencethe Germans evolved something ractical.This moderncapitalisticystem, oumustrecollect,s quite new in Germanyncomparisonoother tates.Questionswereraisedwhichhad becomealmost ntiquated n Franceand England,and political nfluencestowhich hese tateshadyielded prangnto ifewhen theworkingclassesof Germanyhad become imbued with Socialistictheories.Therefore,rom hebeginninglmost fmodern ndustrial evelop-ment, heyhave formed n independent oliticalparty.They hadtheir wnrepresentativesn theGermanParliament. here was noparty o oppose the policyof the Government,nd this devolveduponthem.To trace hecourseof thepartywouldtakea longtime;butI may aythis:that, fthemiddleclassesofGermanywerenotthegreatestowards, istinct rom hemiddleclasses fAmerica ndEngland, ll thepoliticalwork gainst heGovernmenthouldhavebeendonebythem."I askedhim a questionregardinghenumerical trengthf theLassallians n theranks fthe nternationalists."The party f Lassalle,"he replied,"does not exist. Of course


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24 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYthere resome believersn ourranks, ut the number s small.Las-salle anticipatedour generalprinciples.When he commenced omove after he reaction f 1848,he fancied hathe couldmoresuc-cessfully evivethe movementby advocating o-operation f theworkingmenn industrial nterprises.t was to stirthem ntoac-tivity.He lookedupon thismerely s a means to thereal end ofthe movement. have etters rom imto thiseffect.""You would call it his nostrum."

"Exactly.He called upon Bismarck,oldhim whathe designed,and Bismarck ncouragedLassalle's course at that time in everypossibleway."28"What was hisobject?""He wishedto use theworking lassesas a set-offgainstthemiddle classeswho instigatedhetroubles f 1848.""It is said thatyouare thehead and front fSocialism,Doctor,and fromyourvilla herepull the wiresof all theassociations,evo-lutions, tc.,nowgoingon. Whatdo yousayabout it?"The old gentlemanmiled:"I know t. It is very bsurd,yet thasa comic ide.For twomonths revious o theattempt fHoedet,Bismarck omplained n hisNorthGermanGazette29hat was inleaguewithFatherBeck,the eaderoftheJesuitmovement,nd thatwewerekeeping he Socialistmovementn sucha condition hathecould do nothingwith t.""But your International ociety n London directsthe move-ment ""The International ocietyhas outlived tsusefulnessnd exists

no longer. t did exist nd direct hemovements ut thegrowth fSocialism f ateyearshas beensogreat hat tsexistence as becomeunnecessary. ewspapers ave beenstartedn the various ountries.These are interchanged.hat is about theonlyconnection hepar-ties n the differentountries avewithone another.The Interna-tionalSociety,n thefirstnstance,was createdto bringthework-men together,nd show the advisability f effectingrganizationamong their variousnationalities. he interests f each party nthe differentountries ave no similarity.he spectre ftheInter-28 The charge thatLassalle workedsecretlywithBismarck s well founded. t was con-firmed n 1928 by the discoveryof correspondencebetween Lassalle and Bismarckin which the formerpromisedthe latter he support of Germanworkers.29 The name of the ournal in Germanwas Norddeutscher eitung.


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TWO INTERVIEWS WITH MARX 25nationalisteaders itting t London is a mere nvention. t is truethat we dictatedto foreign ocietieswhen the Internationalistr-ganizationwas firstccomplished.We were forced o exclude someSectionsnNewYork, mongthem ne inwhichMadamWoodhullwas conspicuous.30hat was in 1871.There are severalAmericanpoliticians- will notname them-who wish to trade n themove-ment.Theyarewell known oAmerican ocialists.""You and yourfollowers,r. Marx,have beencreditedwithallsorts f incendiarypeeches gainstreligion.Of courseyou wouldlike to see the whole system estroyed,ootand branch.""We know,"he repliedafter moment'shesitation, thatvio-lentmeasures gainst eligion renonsense;but this s an opinion:as Socialism rows, eligionwilldisappear. tsdisappearancemustbedone bysocialdevelopment,n whicheducationmustplaya greatpart.""The Rev. JosephCook,ofBoston,31-ouknow him-""We heardofhim;a verybadly nformedmanupon thesubjectof Socialism.""In a lecture atelyupon the subject,he said: 'Karl Marx iscreditednow withsaying hat, n the UnitedStates, nd in GreatBritain,nd perhapsn France, reform f abor will occurwithoutbloody evolution, utthatbloodmustbe shed n Germany,nd inRussia, nd in Italy, nd inAustria/"No Socialist," emarkedheDoctor, miling, needpredict hattherewill be a bloodyrevolutionn Russia,Germany, ustria, ndpossiblyn Italy fthe Italianskeepon in thepolicy they re now30 "Madam Woodhull" was Victoria Woodhull, who with her sister,Tennessee C.Claflin,was leader of Section 12 of the International n the United States. In 1870the sisterscreated a sensation by startinga banking and brokeragebusiness andrapidly became known as the "Bewitching Bankers of Wall Street." An advocateof women's rights, ncluding free love, proportional representation, ivil servicereform, issolutionof corporate monopolies,controlof national banks, low rates ofinterest, onservationof the national domain, direct taxation, national education,an eight hour day, abolition of standing armies,Victoria Woodhull was an ad-vanced thinkerfor her time. In 1872 she ran for President of the United States ona platformwhich incorporatedmany of these demands. But leaders of the Inter-national charged Miss Woodhull with using the International for her personaladvancement, nd attracting ll kinds of malcontents o the cause.31 ReverendJosephCook, a formerHarvard student,was a popular lecturer on secu-lar subjects;his speciality, part fromdefendingcapitalism,was reconciling cienceand theBible.


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26 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYpursuing.32he deeds of the FrenchRevolutionmaybe enactedagain in thosecountries. hat is apparent o anypoliticalstudent.But thoserevolutionswill be made bythemajority.No revolutioncan be made bya party, ut bya nation.""The reverend entleman lludedto," I remarked,gavean ex-tract rom letterwhichhe said you addressed o theCommunistsofParis n 1871.Here it is: We are as yetbut 3,000,000 t most. ntwenty earswe shall be 50,000,000,-100,000,000erhaps. hen theworldwill belongto us, for t will be not onlyParis,Lyons,Mar-seilles,whichwill rise againstodious capital,but Berlin,Munich,Dresden,London, Liverpool,Manchester, russels, t. Petersburg,New York,- n short, hewholeworld.And before hisnew insur-rection, uch as history as notyetknown, hepastwill disappearlike a hideousnightmare; or thepopularconflagration,indledata hundredpoints t once,will destroyvenitsmemory 'Now,Doc-tor, supposeyou admittheauthorship f that extract?""I neverwrote a wordof it. I neverwritesuchmelodramaticnonsense. am very arefulwhatI do write.That was put in LeFigaro, vermy ignature,boutthat ime.Therewerehundreds fthesamekind of letters lyingbout then. wroteto theLondonTimesand declaredtheywereforgeries;ut, fI deniedeverythingthathas been said and written fme, I would requirea scoreofsecretaries.""Butyouhavewrittenn sympathyith heParisCommunists?""Certainly have, n considerationfwhatwaswrittenf themin leadingarticles;but the correspondenceromParis in Englishpapers s quite sufficiento refute heblunderspropagatedn edi-torials.The Communekilled only about sixtypeople; MarshalMacMahon and his slaughteringrmykilled over60,000.33 herehasneverbeen a movemento slandered s thatof theCommune.""Well, then,to carry ut theprinciples f Socialismdo its be-lievers dvocateassassinationnd bloodshed?""No greatmovement," arl Marx answered, has everbeen in-32 The reference s probably to the efforts f the Italian monarchyat this time to

restorethe church'ssovereigntyver the greaterpart of Italy.33 In The Civil War in France, Marx wroteof the "carnage with which MacMahon spraetorianscelebratedtheir entrance nto Paris," and in his introduction o Marx'sClass Struggle n France, 1848-1850, Engels wrote of Paris having "bled profuselyfrom he bulletsof MacMahon."


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TWO INTERVIEWS WITH MARX 27augurateciwithoutbloodshed.The independenceof America waswon by bloodshed.Napoleon capturedFrance through bloodyprocess,nd he was overthrownythesamemeans. taly,England,Germany,nd everyothercountry ivesproofof this, nd as forassassination," e wenton to say,"it is not a new thing, needscarcelyay.Orsinitriedto kill Napoleon; kingshave killedmorethananybody lse; theJesuitshave killed; the Puritans killed atthe timeofCromwell.These deedswereall done or attempted e-fore ocialismwas known.Every ttempt, owever, owmadeupona Royal or State individual is attributed o Socialism.The So-cialistwouldregret erymuchthe deathof the GermanEmperor tthepresent ime.He is veryusefulwherehe is; and Bismarckhasdonemorefor he cause than nyother tatesman,ydriving hingsto extremes."I askedDr. Marxwhathe thought f Bismarck.He repliedthat"Napoleonwas considered geniusuntilhe fell;thenhe wascalleda fool.Bismarckwill follow n hiswake.He be-gan bybuildingup a despotism ndertheplea of unification. iscoursehasbeenplain toall. The lastmove s but an attemptedmi-tationof a coup d'etat;but itwill fail.The Socialists fGermany,as ofFrance,protestedgainstthewar of 1870 as merelydynastic.They issuedmanifestoesellingthe Germanpeople that, f theyallowedthepretendedwar of defense o be turned nto a war ofconquest, heywould be punishedbytheestablishmentfmilitarydespotismnd the ruthless ppression ftheproductivemasses.TheSocial Democraticparty n Germany, hereuponholding meetingsand publishingmanifestoes oran honorablepeace with France,wereat onceprosecuted ythePrussianGovernment,nd manyofthe eaders mprisoned. till theirDeputiesalone dared to protest,andvery igorouslyoo, n theGermanReichstag, gainst heforce-able annexation f Frenchprovinces. owever,Bismarck arriedhispolicybyforce,nd people spokeof thegeniusofa Bismarck. hewar was fought,nd,when he could makeno moreconquests,hewascalled upon fororiginal deas,and he has signally ailed. Thepeoplebeganto lose faith n him.His popularitywas on the wane.He needsmoney,nd the Stateneeds t.Undera shamConstitutionhe has taxedthepeopleforhismilitarynd unification lansuntilhe can tax themno longer, nd now he seeksto do it withno Con-stitution t all. For the purposeof levying s he chooses,he has


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28 SCIENCE AND SOCIETYraisedtheghost fSocialism, nd has done everythingn hispowertocreate n erneute."84"You havecontinual dvicesfromBerlin?""Yes,"he said; "myfriends eepmewell advised. t is in a per-fectly uiet state, nd Bismarck s disappointed.He has expelledforty-eightrominentmen,- mongthemDeputiesHasselmanandFritsche,ndRakow,Bauman, ndAuer,oftheFree Presse?* hesemenkepttheworkmen fBerlinquiet.Bismarck newthis.He alsoknewthat therewere75,000workmenn thatcityupon thevergeof starvation. nce those eadersweregone,he was confidenthatthemob would rise,and thatwould be the cue fora carnivalofslaughter. he screwswould thenbe put upon thewholeGermanEmpire; his pet theory f blood and iron36would thenhave fullsway, nd taxation ould be leviedto anyextent. o farno erneutehasoccurred,nd he stands o-day onfounded t the situation ndtheridiculeof all statesmen." h.THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE, Jan.5, 187934 Riot;disturbance;umult; ising; utbreak.35 Bismarck's xceptionalLaw- the anti-Socialistaw, introduced y BismarcknOctober,1878 (repealed n October,1890)- utlawedsocialistorganizationsndpublications,nd provided orthepersecutionf members. ctually, ot 48 but"67 ofour mostwell-knownarty omrades avebeenthrownut,"ofwhich themajority ad to leave thecity n 48 hours,"wroteAugustBebel in his autobiog-raphyAusMeinem eben). ProbablyheChicagoTribune onfused hetimewiththenumber fmen xpelled.36 In the budgetcommissionf the Prussianparliament, here Bismarck orthe

first imeexplained omeof his ministerialuties,he cameout stronglygainstthe iberals,aying:Germanyoes not ookat Prussia's iberalismutatherpower-Prussiamustkeepherpower ogetheror heauspiciousmoment, hich lreadyhas been missed fewtimes; he Prussian oundaries re not favorable ortheformationf a healthy tate.The greatquestions f the age are not settledbyspeechesndmajorityotes- hiswas the error f1848-49- utby ronand blood."