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Constructability ReviewUS101: Columbia River [Astoria-Megler] Bridge

September 19, 201110:00 – Noon (PDT)

Attendees:Eric Holland Wildish Standard PavingLonnie Lade Abhe & Svoboda, Inc.

Jamie Staehely Inspector Designer Steve Smith S & K PaintingGrover Lee FD Thomas (by phone)Bill Jablonski ODOT Project Leader Paul Christiansen ODOT Project Manager Troy Palmrose ODOT Project Inspector Quentin Smith ODOT Engineering Director Ivan Silbernagel ODOT ConstructionRay Bottenberg ODOT Senior Corrosion Engineer (by phone)Corissa Anderson ODOT Regional Environmental Coordinator (by phone)Janice See ODOT Area 1 AdminShane Terwilliger ODOT Specifications (by phone)

Chris Suits ODOT Assistant Project Manager

Project Name: US101: Columbia River [Astoria-Megler] Bridge

Verbatim Transcription

Bill Okay. We’ll start with doing introductions here in Astoria, and then whoever is onthe phone, we’ll start with that and see if we can talk you through it.

Unknown[00:10:9]

Okay, great.

Bill Were you able to get access to the site there with the plans and specs andinformation?

Unknown[00:00:18]

Yeah, we’ve got those all paper copies in front of us.

Bill Okay. One thing you won’t have is the agenda for today. There are only a couple

of items, though. We’ll just walk you through that and then as we go to certain

pages, we’ll just tell you. You won’t be able to see it on the screen, but we’ll get

there. Well, I want to welcome everyone to the U.S. 101 Columbia River Astoria-

Megler Bridge Painting Constructability Review. This project is scheduled to go to

let January 12, 2012, so just a couple of months, and this is a voluntary discussion

and meeting today. We’ve invited the contracting community to discuss some of

the issues that internally ODOT is having with this project as far as putting together

our final plans and specs to go out to bid. We want to see if we could get some

weigh-in from the contractors to see, you know, some ideas or how things mightwork or what some feedback might be. What I’d like to do is go around and

introduce ourselves, who we are, where we’re from. I’ll start here in Astoria, work

the room, then we’ll go to the folks on the phone. Again, I’m Bill Jablonski. I’m the

Project Leader based here in Astoria, Oregon.

Troy I’m Troy Palmrose. I’m the Project Inspector.

Janice Janice See, Area Admin. I’m taking minutes today.

Eric Eric Holland with Wildish Standard Paving. We’re a general contractor out of

Constructability Review Page 1 of 27US101: Columbia River [Astoria-Megler] BridgeSeptember 19, 2011



Eugene.

Lonnie My name is Lonnie Lade. I’m with Abhe & Svoboda.Paul I’m Paul Christiansen. I’m Project Manager with ODOT in Astoria.

Jamie Jamie Staehely, Inspector Designer with the Astoria construction office.Steve I’m Steve Smith, S & K Painting.

Ivan Ivan Silbernagel, ODOT Construction.Chris Suits Chris Suits Assistant PM in the construction office for ODOT.

Quentin I’m Quentin Smith. I’m Engineering Director for this project.

Bill Okay. Could everyone on the phone hear all that?

Unknown[0:02:17]

Yes.

Bill Okay. Let’s go with the folks on the phone. I see there’s five of you, so go ahead.

Grover This is Grover Lee with FD Thomas.

Ray Ray Bottenberg, Senior Corrosion Engineer with ODOT.

Corissa Corissa Anderson, Regional Environmental Coordinator for ODOT.

Shane Shane Terwilliger, Specifications.Bill Okay. Hey, thank you very much. Just checking in on everyone’s technical side.

Was everyone able to get access through their Web browser to see the agenda ontheir screen?

VariousVoices Yes.

Bill Very good. Can everyone hear everyone in the room?

Corissa Yes

Unknown[0:03:02]

Reasonably.

Bill Reasonably. Okay. Well, if you have a problem, please speak up. We can movesome mikes around closer to some people, so we can work on that, but you haveto let us know. Okay. I just want to go over the agenda items that you see on thescreen there. We’re going to review the project scope and schedule. We’re goingto have Quentin, Ray, and/or Ivan kind of weigh in on that, on what the purpose isof the project as well, mainly do existing conditions and some background

information about this section of the bridge. We’ll have an open discussion on thecontainment options. As you know, it’s a pretty large span there that has to becoated, blasted and coated, and we would like to have some input on thecontainment options that you see in the specs information. Some of thatcontainment is based on wind speed or wind load on the bridge itself and some of the issues with that. We also have a discussion with noise impacts. We did meetwith our ODOT noise folks last week and got a report from them. It looks like we’regoing to have some pretty high decibels that are going to be really close to somelocal hotels. Being that this is a high tourist area, most of the painting is done in thesummer months or the, you know, a larger amount of painting and blasting can bedone in the summer months when the weather is good which means we’re going tohave a lot of influx of people here. There might be some politics involved on

scheduling and what activities we can do during those months as well. Then wehave, what else is on the agenda—traffic restrictions. We will have to get, for theCity of Astoria, a permit to work at night. And if we have these decibels that we aresupposedly predicting that we might see, especially on the south span of thissection of the bridge, we might get some political pushback from the communityand the City on getting any kind of permit for working at night. Again, we don’tknow for sure. These are some of the components that we’re still trying to iron outand deal with as we head to final plans. And then any others that come up, issuesand stuff that aren’t covered, we’ll see what we have time for in the two hours. Any




questions on the agenda? Okay. I’m going to pass it over to our bridge specialistsQuentin, Ivan, and Ray. You want to talk about your existing conditions of thissection, a little background on it, then maybe the purpose of the blasting and thecoating work?

Quentin Well, the first part of the project is fundamentally painting everything above thebridge rail for the three main spans in the bridge. There is extensive rusting on thebridge. There are a lot of rivets that will have to be replaced because the rivetheads are substantially corroded. And, we are also going to completely replace the

stair system that allows access to the very top of the bridge in two places. We’regoing to repair– replace the platforms that are for access for the navigational lights.That’s not in the papers that were submitted to you. That’s been added to theproject, but those platforms are going to be replaced. And then, lastly for the windbraces that exist on either side of the main piers, we have the items shown astorsional stiffeners for stiffening the vertical beams. There are 64 of those andwe’re replacing those as well. I think most of the corrosion on the bridge is generalcorrosion. We don’t think there’s a lot of deep pitting, we don’t think there’s placesthat will need repair. [7:30] There has been some cracking in the bridge but mostof that has been already repaired in another contract. So, to our direct knowledge,there’s no major steel repairs that will exist as part of this work. The projectincludes completely sandblasting and removing all of the existing paint and

evidence of corrosion. We know there’s red lead paint, original lead paint from theoriginal building of the bridge. There’s black oxide down there as well. We believethere’s chromates in the paint that’s there and so full containment will have to bedone with protection from lead for the employees. It’s a three-coat system;moisture-cured urethane with striping required for all edges and fastener headsand other similar locations. So on those areas will be five coats of paint, and thenon the general flat surfaces, there will be three coats of paint. I don’t know whatelse to say about the project.

Ivan You said moisture-cured urethane. We’re not specifying moisture-cured urethane.It’s QPL which has some epoxy systems too, but…

Corissa You’ll probably need to speak up, Ivan.

Ivan Quentin said moisture-cured urethane. We’re not specifying moisture-cured

urethane. We’re specifying our QPL list which has moisture-cured urethanes andepoxy system. But that, I think, is a good description of the work. The only thing I’dadd is rivet work, what I remember is a lot of them were on the laterals, the box,like the portals and the big laterals, quite a few. I mean, there’s a series of 50, 60,70, 80 rivets in a row that may need to be replaced. Another question I have, we’vehad discussion, I don’t know whether we’ve got it in or out, talked a little bit aboutmaybe water jetting some pack rust? I personally don’t think we need to do it, butthere’s still some discussion about that, and that would involve, you know, ultrahigh-pressure water jetting specific crevices that are bulged with pack rust. It wouldadd another dimension to the actual work type required out there.

Quentin We don’t have a list of specific places that we know have pack rust. We justsuspect that there are places.

Ivan And so, I guess at this time we don’t even know whether it’s going to be in there or not.

Unknown So, we may see that on the bid items, then, as a line item for that, for somequantity, then?

Ivan Yeah, and then, continuing on, I assume everybody’s had a chance to look at thepreliminary specifications, in particular the containment requirements in allowableload and containment requirements, and I guess, start with comments about thatbecause hopefully we could get some comments.




Lonnie Well, the one thing that I don’t like is if no one’s on site for more than four hours,we have to remove the containment ducts. That’s something I’d like to – whatwe’re dealing with now, pretty much keep our containments up start to finish tillwe’re done painting and then take them down. And if it’s high winds, you got totake them down, period.

Ivan Okay. The criteria that we’re going by, I think right now, is at 30 mph, we’d requirethem to be dropped, and I think we were talking about the 30 mph, we were talkingabout two bays?

Quentin Yeah, the calculations that was based on the two, we had two bays per span and if the wind went above 30 mph or was expected to go above 30 mph, you’d have todrop the tarps. The four hours off bridge is simply dealing with the fact --

Lonnie It would be daily because you’re going to go home at night and not be there untilthe next morning.

Quentin Yeah, so someone has to be able with very little notice to go up and drop the tarps.That’s what the four hours is about. If you’re going to leave and you’re not comingback, then you take the tarps down. If someone’s going to be there who can takethem down, then they stay up.

Lonnie Okay. Now, what if we spray paint all day and we’re going to go home at fiveo’clock, I have to drop the tarps and all that, wet paint is going to be in my way.

Quentin Of the tarps?

Lonnie Of the containment. Everything inside the containment is going to have wet painton it, and you expect us to drop the tarps before we go home.

Quentin Well, it is the problem. The problem that we’re trying to deal with is that this bridgeis a fragile structure. And a major windstorm would damage the bridge, andavoiding damage to the bridge is paramount. And so, how do we be sure that wedon’t have a 50-mile-an-hour windstorm, a 90-mile-an-hour windstorm that’s, youhad, on the other end, that doesn’t end up bending the beams of this bridgebecause the tarps are still up? So, we have to have some ways to be assured thatthe tarps will come down if a storm blows into Astoria. One way is that they alwayshave to come down or there always has to be somebody there. You know the waywe can do that, but some way or other, the tarps have to come down. We can’thave them blow down, and that’s the problem we’ve been trying to deal with. We

would accommodate some setup in which we’re certain that if a storm comes in,somebody would be out there, would stop the traffic, would get up there and getthe tarps down.

Phone So, are you basing that on, you say, two bays within any structure, completecontainment over the full two bays?

Quentin Yes, and the – since the original drawings were, you know, done, and we’ve talkedabout this, we’ve also said one bay per span in 40 mph.

Phone One bay would encase two plumb bows then?

Quentin Yes, opposing either side.

Unknown[0:15:08]

So the containment could be about 60 ft, 55 ft wide?

Quentin Yes, something like that, yes.

Unknown[0:15:12]

The bays are 44 ft, so it would be --

Unknown[0:15:15]

I think 30 mph is way too restrictive in any situation.

Quentin Yeah, but the model says that the bridge --

Unknown[0:15:23]

And that daily thing, it just makes the job undoable. You can’t take the tarps downevery day and put them back up. You’ll be out there taking tarps down and puttingthem up constantly and not get any work done.




Quentin I understand.

Grover [0:15:33]

Especially during the lead work.

Unknown[0:15:38]

Yeah, you got lead contamination. You can’t clean the containment up well enoughto drop the tarps, especially in here near town and then we’ll have that lead dustand what’s left up there…it would just blow all over.

Quentin So, that’s the answer to the question.

Lonnie

[0:15:58]

Plus, that size of a containment, you’re looking at three to five hours to get them

down so you can go home that night.Unknown[0:16:07]

It takes that long to get them down. It takes twice as long to get them back up.

Ivan If I’m hearing you right, basically it’s you can’t do it, is what they’re saying; youcan’t spend the day building tarps and get any work done and then spend the restof the day tearing it down.

Unknown[0:16:24]

One of the things we discussed internally is, you know, what if we basically writethe specifications that forces you to work 24/7? We could do that --

Lonnie[0:16:34]

That only works in certain months of the year.

Phone Well, yeah, you’d have to focus your --

Lonnie[0:16:42]

I mean, that’s about three months of the year.

Ivan Well, you’d get more than that.

Lonnie Not necessarily.

Ivan The other problem that’s come up recently with that is the noise issue.

Unknown Yeah, I think based off our recent discussion; the high reality is we’re not going tobe able to work at night, so that throws that out the window. It hasn’t beenconfirmed yet, but I’m just – from what I’m hearing, that’s the way it’s going to --

Lonnie Why don’t you identify that the contractor has to start at the far end of the bridge?That gives the community time to figure out what you’re doing—several years tofigure out what you’re doing before you’d really impact the town.

Ivan I don’t know if that would help. They would still complain when we got here.

Lonnie Well, they would complain you’re there but noise wouldn’t be an issue if you wereclear out there.

Ivan So we have envisioned zippered windows in the tarps. We’ve envisioned Velcroedwindows in the tarps that could be pulled down rapidly. Lots of ways in which theycan be pulled down quickly for the storm. The point is the storm.

Lonnie I worked here last winter and it’s the winter months you have to worry about. Now,this past three to four months we’ve had have been beautiful. Why would we takeour tarps down if it’s sunny and 80 degrees and there’s no wind for two months?

Ivan Again, we’re only trying to deal with a situation in which a storm blows into Astoriaand it’s going to be nasty weather.

Lonnie Does ODOT have enough time to do a big contract like this and say, “Hey, let’s just plan a winter shutdown for the next three to five years to get the bridge done

and concentrate on working in the good weather months which you get maybe fiveup here?” Because we tried doing this last winter and we got blown off the bridgefor a couple of days and the next couple of days go up there and fix thecontainment tarps and then we’d get blown off the bridge for a couple more days.So the work season up here is short.

Ivan Well, you know, another part of that, let’s say you could only work six months outof the year and you had to do one bay at a time, could you get it done in threeyears?

Lonnie How many --




Ivan 56. 56 bays.

Lonnie 56 bays, and we could have three up. You could have two per span and there arethree spans, correct?

Unknown[0:19:05]

Two bays per span at 30 mph.

Lonnie[0:19:14]

So you could have six containments up over the whole bridge, correct? Two per span.

Unknown

[0:19:22]

Well, if you can do that, though, can you—traffic control has to be concentrated in

one area, doesn’t it? So you would be limited in what you could do in those other containments. I mean, you might be able to be up there painting versus if you hadto blast, you’d need all that equipment to blast up there. So that’s another thing. Idon’t think you gave us any kind of idea of what the traffic control limitations weregoing to be time wise, lengthwise.

Unknown[0:19:50]

This summer we had the entire bridge closed. I mean the length of the entirestructure from one portal to the other portal, one entire lane was closed, and it, itworked pretty good.

Unknown During the day?

Unknown[0:20:02]

Yeah.

Unknown What months were those?

Unknown[0:20:05]

We just finished last week.

Paul It works pretty good. The only – the biggest challenge was getting the first sign up,you know, because it goes right up here. I’m pointing to the ramp. You on thephone can’t see it, but that’s the biggest challenge because when you’re installingthat sign support, you’re backing up to the intersection, but once you get pastthere, you got a lot of storage room on this ramp.

Lonnie[0:20:29]

Steve, we got three days where we were told that we have to get off the bridge andthen there could have been another three days where we shortened it up, removedhalf the crew, just made our lane closure as short as possible and that would havefreed the traffic up. That was right around the holidays.

Unknown[0:20:44]

Big weekend events, holidays…

Unknown When I was down here, like, last, Saturday I was coming from the Washington sideand it had took me a half hour to get across this bridge basically because trafficwas backed up at this light, and there was zero traffic control. And there was thingsgoing on, I guess, in Seaside and Long Beach.

Unknown[0:21:07]

It’s been pretty good. July 5th was the worst because there are fireworks shows,everybody stays late and spends the night because of the fireworks; nobody wantsto go home at midnight. So, the next morning --

Lonnie[0:21:22]

There were two lane closures on the bridge for about the last two months, I think.

Unknown[0:21:27]

On the near end or on the other end?

Unknown[0:21:28]

So what’s your guys’, like, if they did like a—if we implemented like a winter shutdown, let’s say, I mean with that 30 mph spec, you probably have four or fivemonths really where you can actually, you know, a working season…

Lonnie[0:21:45]

Allowing us a very long lane closure, allow us two containments in all three spans -

Unknown[0:21:50]

About how long?

Lonnie You’re still looking at three to four weeks per containment. There’s a lot of work in




[0:21:53] there. It’s a big containment. We’re looking at a month per containment, like we’refighting that right now with a small containment. So you’re looking at 10 moves,three years would be --

Unknown[0:22:19]

Really tough.

Lonnie[0:22:20]

Yeah.

Unknown

[0:22:21]

We’ve done this sort of thing before and it’s really – the issue we run into is you

can write a spec like that, but whose data do you use to interpret it because out onthe spit here, it can be like a 35 mph wind and it’s calm here in Astoria. You’d usethe airport, maybe that’s pretty close. Maybe you’d use the sensor on the bridge.

And then you look at the forecast and in the summertime when we get thenorthwesterlies, it’s not unusual to have it, like, maybe in the 20s. So whathappens when it’s like 25 every night? Is that close enough where we want you todrop the containment? So for the construction office, it becomes one of thosethings, so we kind of revert to, well, we look at the containment, if it’s the typethat’s going to tear away at 25, then we don’t worry about it so much. But if it’s thesort of thing that’s stiff enough to stay up there in a 25 mph wind, we might startlooking at it closer. So, it’s really tough to write a spec that’s going to cover allthose sort of intangibles. Or if you try to do it, it’s going to be so restrictive that it’s

really tough to build. If we want to use Acuweather as our rain and wind forecast,then great, you know, let’s put that in the spec, but it’s not going to be accurate.

Unknown[0:23:36]

But with that said, too, I think you have to be realistic—we have to be realistic onplanning the time frame because 30 mph is something that’s commonly in theforecast. That’s not an infrequent number through the majority of the year. Youmight not see it like during the peak summer months, maybe June, July, August,September, you won’t see that, but sometimes you even see it then with northwinds. I mean, it’s --

Unknown[0:24:03]

Yeah, probably 98% of our 30 mph plus winds come out of the south.

Ray How big of a change would it be if we switched it from 30 mph to 40 mph?

Unknown[0:24:16]

Before you answer that, are you talking sustained winds or gusts?

Unknown[0:24:22]

Oh, actually both. Because what happens here is the gusts are usually like maybe5 or 10 mph above the sustained it seems like.

Unknown[0:24:35]

So currently, our specs currently, in the project at the north end, are we – it’s 40mph, and are those sustained winds or are those gusts?

Unknown[0:24:44]

Sustained.

Unknown[0:24:45]

Sustained. So should we be looking at sustained because that makes a differencetoo?

Ray Well, unless gusts are measurable, there’s no point.

Unknown[0:24:58]

Well, if we’re looking at forecasts.

Ray Then that’s—yeah, if they forecasted it to be 55 mph gusts, I think we’d want to dosomething.

Unknown[0:25:09]

What if they tell you a gust --

Unknown[0:25:11]

What if it’s 20 gusts to 30? You know, that’s kind of hard.

Unknown Yeah, I guess we just need to decide which one we’re talking about and then use




[0:25:14] that. That’s the first thing. And then what was your question, Ray? How muchbenefit is there going from 30 to 40?

Ray Yes, and realizing that the size of the containments will roughly be half if you dothat.

Unknown[0:25:38]

When you go to 40, what I’d say is in the summertime, sustained winds of 40 arevery rare. I don’t have any data, but just living here, I’d say it’s very, very unusual.So I’d say if you get sustained winds of 40 in the summertime, it would pretty muchbe a nonissue. And if we did see something like that, I got a feeling we’d know it

was coming; it’s not something that’s going to come out of nowhere. In thewintertime, it would be a different story.

Ray How many months could you work with the reasonable expectation of not gettingabove 40 more than a time a month or something?

Unknown[0:26:22]

Lonnie says six.

Unknown[0:26:23]

I’ll say six.

Unknown[0:26:24]

Yeah. Probably six.

Lonnie[0:26:25]

I will say you don’t want to handle a tarp in a 30 mph wind.

Unknown[0:26:31]

Probably like May through, possibly May through October. May, June, July, August, September, October—that’s six, yeah.

Corissa[0:26:39]

If you’re lucky.

Unknown[0:26:40]

And there’s feathering on the edges of that.

Lonnie[0:26:45]

So let’s say the contractor’s got six containments up there, I think the contractor should have one full day to prepare for a storm, not just get the call at 4:30 in thep.m. and say, “Hey, you got a storm coming tonight, take it down.” You’re going toneed a lot of time to take a lot of tarp down. So if you could schedule it, if ODOThas the time, maybe you’d allow a contractor to have one containment up duringthe winter months and then --

Unknown[0:27:16]

Well, the difference with this spec and the spec that we’re using now is that thisactually says if it’s in the forecast, so you’d have, I mean, forecast, it might be aweek out and we might be saying, “Hey, the forecast next week says this daywe’re going to have 50 mph winds.” And so it will be up to contractor to get it downbefore that day. And obviously, it’s like Paul’s saying, there’s some uncertaintythere because our forecasts change every day around here. So it might be, youknow, for the contractor to wait as long as they think they can so they have theappropriate time to take it down.

Lonnie[0:27:53]

Well, we will, but I think ODOT should appoint someone to make that call and notleave it on the contractor because we’ll leave them up.

Paul Okay. I like the idea of the 40 mph, though Ray—this is Paul, just because it’s lessfrequent. It seems like if we use the 30-mile-an-hour, we’re going to always be onthe edge and having to make a judgment call would be my guess. When you thinkabout it, if it were 20 mph, it would be totally undoable; 30 mph gets a little moredoable; 40 mph, it gets a little bit better. The forecasts get a little more accuratewhen you get into the higher wind speeds.

Unknown[0:28:30]

Yeah, and it seems like, I mean, almost with every storm in the winter, at least, Imean, for those six months of the year, it’s pretty common to get 30 to 40 mphwinds or gusts especially out there, but more closer to 30, you see them a lot. Butgetting up towards 40, that’s not as common. That’s more towards the bigger




weather events that we have here when we start getting up around 40 and above.

Unknown[0:28:58]

When we were working up there this summer, there was a handful of days thatthey were 30 mph. And when it was 70 degrees out that as soon as the afternoonhits and the tide changes, it’s whipping up that river. So you got to think about thattoo.

Unknown[0:29:14]

Steve here has some experience. Go ahead.

Steve Well, I was just going to ask if you’ve – instead of just going by bay, did you try to

do a different scenario for containment, like, being that the bridge is so high incertain places, could you do upper sections of containment that would be lessrestrictive? In other words, go halfway up above the tower there and build thecontainment from there up? Could you go four or five bays wide or --

Unknown[0:29:45]

Well, we’d have to do the load cases for that. Part of the problem --

Unknown[0:29:51]

Yeah, at 40 mph, that would roughly correspond to the two bays, if you do that,Steve.

Unknown[0:29:55]

Part of the reason that we—in the original one we talked about bays, you notice asyou get closer to the tower the bays get bigger --

Unknown[0:30:00]

Bigger, and they get stronger, though, right?

Unknown[0:30:00]

Yeah, so you can get a bigger load, so there is kind of a square footage. So, if you just look at the cross section there, you could have an area that’s two bays. And if you were right at the tower, technically, half your containment would be at eachspan so you could go --

Unknown[0:30:23]

Well, the way I see it, it’s possible to just go directly up some of those plumb postswith maybe a 7-ft wide containment, actually leave a void in there. Where thediagonals come up and meet the top cord, the next plumb post over, you couldalmost just build that as a single containment. It would only be 7 ft wide andactually leave a void in there. So, I guess I’m asking is the square footage, youknow, if you could limit the square footage and could you spread it out into morearea? Or are you just going to call it two bays, or are you going to say so manysquare footage on one side?

Unknown[0:31:18]

I think you’re okay if we’re saying two bays and you want to put a skinny one hereand a skinny one there as long as the area doesn’t equal more than two bays,you’re fine. Part of the problem here is the structure’s really pretty spindly but atevery vertical you’ve got laterals across the roadway so you’re going to have tocontain that, which means an internal structure over the roadway. And there again,that containment might not be as movable. We’ve had the discussion. Typically werequire rigid containment adjacent to traffic, but I’m hoping we’re not going to dothat on this bridge because the actual steel is at least 5 ft away from roadway, sothere shouldn’t be any problem getting access to blasting around the truss like wedo on a typical where the containment is either tight to traffic or tight to the steel.But another scenario I’ve talked to some of the contractors about is if we write aspec, I mean, it could say something like, “For 30 mph winds, you’re allowed two

bays at any one time in a span.” One option might be to enclose the top cord, andsay that takes up 30% of your allowable square footage, you could use the other 70% on the trusses or on the other members. My thought is that a lot of the steel, alot of the blast, a lot of work is actually at the top cord. That’s where theconnections are; that’s the big box member. I think those are riveted top cords soyou’re going to have to blast both directions on the inside of the box. The trussmembers are for the most part rolled sections; there are some box sections. Mostof those are welded, I believe. It should be easier other than the fact that they’re




sloped and there’s very little steel per square footage of containment.

Unknown[0:33:47]

That’s what I was asking you about; just doing some more lineal feet on the toppart of the bridge. Say you did six bays on the top part of the bridge starting fromthe beginning here, and you only brought it down from 10 ft below the top cord,can you do that? And then that would allow you to then make your bottom-upcontainments shorter and maybe larger. Instead of doing that as a full bay, you’redoing the top, finishing it, then you come at another time below it and build up towherever you started at the top.

Unknown[0:34:26]

I don’t think that’s a problem at all. I mean, what we’re after is a limited squarefootage area in a span. And whether that’s a--

Unknown[0:34:40]

Should be able to do more at the top than you could doing a bay straight upbecause the weakest part is in the middle of that bay.

Ivan[0:34:48]

There might be a little issue there though, if you had a great big sail in the very topof the truss overturning.

Unknown[0:35:02]

I’m not an engineer. I don’t know.

Ray -phone[0:35:06]

Well, that could easily be evaluated, though. There’s a large number of scenarioshere that could be okay.

Steve[0:35:17]

The more you tell us in the preconstruction specifications, the better off acontractor is at trying to bid it. If you just say two bays, then, you know, it’s not a lot

of information. So the more you evaluate it and say this is allowable or that’sallowable, the better pricing I think you’ll get.

Unknown[0:35:47]

Yeah, that’s true. If we say, you know, if we just say bays, obviously, those vary asyou go across the structure. If we say, like, say a square footage per span, that’s alittle better, but that’s still going to vary as you go up and down on the structure,like Ivan was saying; you know, moment shear overturn. But like Steve’s saying, isthe more detailed you can get is you can do this here and you can do that there,that will help a lot as far as the bidder’s problem. I don’t know if that made anysense, but…

Unknown[0:36:17]

Well, the other thing we could do is we’ve talked about 30 mph versus 40 mph. If we put both of those in a specification and let the contractor select and maybe thatwould lead the contractor to using bigger containments in the summertime and

then smaller ones in the winter. Is that worthwhile, I guess, that likelihood? If welowered it to 30 mph, we have to drop the containment at 30 mph, will that workduring the winter?

Lonnie[0:36:58]

No. One thing I mentioned to you a long time ago, I mean, you didn’t like the idea,but it’s to instead of just doing above the railing, to do the bottom as you’re doingyour containments and coming through with it. I still think that is, in my opinionthat’s a more workable situation for the contractor because he has more work to doin a certain area. In other words, I’m talking about doing the floor system and theupper steel in one contract. You could limit the contract to one span out there andyou could probably get the far span done in a couple years. But I think thateverything above the road, you’re looking at more than three-year time frame. Imean, look at what’s happening up at Lewis and Clark Bridge; that’s going to end

up taking five years, and they’ve got time containments.Ray -phone[0:38:00]

That becomes a problem for us here. The stuff below deck is in better shape, butwe still want to be able to get to it in, you know, four or five years or sooner.

Lonnie[0:38:15]

Yeah. Well, I don’t know, does four or five years make that much difference? Imean, if you could actually get the bridge done and the whole bridge done in fiveyears, if you did it in the way I’m suggesting, I think you’d be better off. That’s justmy opinion.

Ray -phone Yeah. Hard to say. The stuff above deck’s definitely got more issues. So the




[0:38:37] challenge here is to figure out a way to put in our specs, you know, lots of flexibilityfor the sizing and location of the containments and still have it safe.

Grover Hey, this is Grover at FD Thomas. You know, the square footage of thecontainment, when we talk about the square footage of the containment over twospans, obviously in the tall spans, right, you’ve got more footage than in the shortspans.

Ray -phone[0:39:20]

Yes.

Grover Height wise, so you take in the square footage of a containment, are you taking iton the side load of the bridge, like the wind blowing sideways, you know, throughthe bridge?

Ray -phone[0:39:37]

Yes, that’s what that’s about, yeah.

Grover Uh-huh. That information would benefit the bid process to know what that squarefootage is. No matter where you put that footage in the span, it all equals, is thatwhat we’re saying, it’s the same?

Unknown[0:39:55]

No. The square footage allowed in the taller bays is bigger. Because you’re closer to the tower, it’s stiffer. You can take a bigger lateral load from the wind so it worksout about two bays, two bays anywhere depending on where you’re at on thistruss.

Grover Uh-huh. But then, whatever that nominal footage is, right, for that side load, wecould spread that footage out anywhere on the bridge?

Unknown[0:40:24]

Yeah. Well, we were talking about that criteria is allowable per span and you gotthree spans so you could put it --

Grover At that span.

Unknown[0:40:38]

Yeah.

Grover So a containment that was built, that went over the road deck cross section of thebridge, but was only 10 ft wide at the vertical, it would still only account for 10 ft?

Unknown[0:40:56]

Yes.

Grover Of width that went straight across the road deck to the other side? Kind of containit the other direction versus that side?

Tom[0:41:07]

Yes.

Unknown[0:41:08]

Yes. Like a rolling containment-type scenario or something like that. Yeah.

Unknown[0:41:20]

1800 is not very big either. That’s a small containment.

Unknown[0:41:24]

Is that the number they’re throwing around, 1800? Is that for the roadwaycontainment or the side containment?

Unknown[0:41:32]

Any span does not exceed 1800 sq ft.

Unknown[0:41:36] I was just sitting here thinking if you’re going to do one bay, it’s at least 50 ft wide,and say it’s 80 ft tall, that’s 4,000 sq ft.

Unknown Yeah. You couldn’t even contain two bays. You couldn’t even contain one bay --Unknown That’s one bay.

Unknown[0:41:50]

Let’s say the bridge is 100 ft high by 50. Well, there’s 5,000 sq ft right there.

Grover For one area. We could do two, right? Each span. The containment, if the --Unknown No, he’s talking about rigid containment on the traffic side, Lonnie.

Unknown That’s a rigid containment.




[0:42:10]

Unknown[0:42:15]

You’re eliminating that, Ivan, I think that’s what I heard because that requires yousomewhere in here to take that down every day, the rigid containment. I think inthis packet it says the rigid containment has to come down every day which wouldbe worse than taking tarps down because that takes longer to take down andhandle and put back up.

Troy[0:42:38]

That won’t be in the final thing, and like I said, it’s likely to allow flexiblecontainment there. The problem with that is that, you know, that’s going to be right

next to traffic, and if it gets windy, you know, it’s going to be relatively small. So theloading, I don’t know if that’s a huge issue, but traffic safety is a bigger issue. If itblows out, wraps around a car. But your question about, you know, if you wantedto put a -- looking at the bridge at elevation, do a 10-ft containment from the deckto the top and rolling through there, you need plenty. In reality you could have it,the bays are 44 ft so you could enclose, say, 50 ft and roll 50 ft at a time acrossthe bridge and do it; one of those containments in each span. Like I said, if youlooked at the plans, there’s a fair amount of distance between the truss itself andthe back of the rail. And there’s some ability for you to put some type of a traveler on the back side of the railing for your internal containment and roll it across thespan. The big thing is the wind speed, when you got to drop the tarps, and thecross sectional area, the wind loading.

Grover [0:44:31]

Let me ask this question: If you use containments smaller than what are designed,do you have to remove them?

Unknown[0:44:42]

I guess my idea of that would be that your tarps are only going to be capable of carrying a certain load and that’s, I’d say, about 45 lbs and they’re going to startripping apart. And whether you decide by yourself to take them down or we tell youto take them down because they’re going to blow into traffic, you know, it’sprobably going to become a safety issue which we would require you to drop them.

At what point would they start ripping apart…45?Unknown[0:45:10]

It depends on how well you put them up. They’ll take 55-, 60 mph winds.

Lonnie[0:45:20]

New tarp will probably take a lot. On old tarp that’s got a few holes in it, it won’ttake that much.

Unknown[0:45:25]

It only takes one wind and your new tarps look like old tarps.

Grover I guess my question right now is you’re basing it on a certain square footage. If weuse less square footage, do we still have to take them down and not endanger thebridge?

Unknown[0:45:45]

We didn’t do the cases for that, but I think that that’s probably accurate; that if there would be a higher, you know, if it was half, from top to bottom, if it was half the height, probably again, two bays at 40, then half the height would probably beall right. But again, getting the load cases run for every possible iteration of tarps isgoing to be an effort by itself.

Unknown[0:46:20]

I’ll add a little to that. There may be some issues with individual member loadingwhen you get a small containment with higher winds, you get more concentrated

loads so you got a bigger potential to bend an individual member.Unknown[0:46:48]

Yeah, theoretically what you’re saying, Grover, is you might be able to come upwith a curve on wind speed versus containment area, but then it gets complicatedlike what Ivan’s saying so it’s more like a 3D picture than a curve, you know. Itdepends on where that containment area is sitting what wind speed it will stand.Yeah, I don’t know how we put a 3D picture in the specs. We haven’t done thatone yet. But that’s kind of what I’m guessing our containment engineers would gothrough is you’d propose it to our office, we’d run it through them and they’d crank




the numbers for that specific scenario. Actually, you’re designer would do that, andthen we’d check it, so.

Grover [0:47:35]

How would you do that as a submittal before you bid the job?

Unknown Oh, boy.

Unknown[0:47:50]

How would that work? You mean, after we advertise it, you submit a proposedsecret containment plan and then we would say yes or no to you and you could bidit?

Grover [0:48:00]

Well, I guess all I’m saying is there’s a lot of speculation here and the moreinformation we have to bid the job, the better the prices.

Unknown[0:48:12]

You’d change the contract to an A plus B plus C which is big enough, I think,dollarwise, you could probably do that where you would get a proposal from thecontractor for time, price and experience or, you do it off, basically, their plan.

Unknown[0:48:27]

Yeah, the magic button you pushed was a different way of bidding which is kind of like design-build but more along the lines of it would be a cost-plus the proposalwhere everybody would submit their plan and we’d look at it and take what wethought was best.

Unknown[0:48:49]

Something to consider for you.

Unknown

[0:48:51]

Something to think about.

Unknown Well, at this stage of the game, I don’t know if we’d be able to switch to that kind of contracting though, so close to the Let date, so.

Unknown Yeah, there’s stuff we have to go through legally on our end to put out a bid likethat. Anyways…

Bill[0:49:15]

Hey, Quentin, when you did your analysis, did you consider the type of probablyscaffolding or the – what our containment’s going to consist of weight wise?

Quentin I believe it was just based on the area that would be blocked off and how muchforce the wind would be putting.

Unknown So, if a guy uses like a system scaffold, the additional weight, is that going toimpact that at all?

Quentin Well, I mean, we still have design load limits on how much the scaffolding canweigh and how far apart the attachment points are and all of that.

Unknown[0:50:00]

Yeah, the specifications talked about how many pounds per square foot allowable.It also talked about some hanging points and I guess one thing to be aware of is if you put your scaffolding right over the roadway, the only thing to really hang it fromis those spindly little lateral members which could create some issues. That’sanother reason why I was thinking, you know, one containment at top cordbecause you got big members up there. You could hang scaffolding up there, andthen something lighter down over the roadway where you’re not going to have a lotof sand or equipment, you know, very little spent abrasive there. What is thatnumber? We ought to probably talk about that. What was the live load?

Unknown 2500 lbs.

Unknown 2500 lbs each hanging.

Bill That’s page 29 on your spec book.

Unknown[0:51:17]

It’s 14 lbs per square foot. And I would suspect scaffolding’s going to weigh, 5 to 5-plus depending on what type you got. Do you know what we’re involved with at thenorth end on load per square foot?

Unknown 4 ft lb, that’s like a platform isn’t it? It seems like that’s what I remember from other jobs is the allowable pounds per square foot on a platform.

Unknown Right.

Unknown You don’t have the specs?




Unknown I must not.

Unknown[0:52:27]

This section – I don’t have the page number. This reads live load dead load, sothat would be the actual platform itself plus any, you know, spent abrasive.

Unknown What page are you on?

Unknown 29.

Unknown Mine’s not printed. It’s in the --Unknown Point number 2.

Unknown Point number 1, actually.

Unknown[0:52:55]

I bet that that’s going to – you’re going to get over that, I bet, because the bays areso tall. You’re talking about 14 lbs per square foot on your base or whatever your —wherever your base is at, I believe. If you based it down on the very bottom onthe top cord and then went all the way up for two bays, you’re going to get over that 14 lbs per square foot.

Unknown[0:53:27]

Well, I’m thinking your scaffolding for the truss itself is probably going to be comingoff the bottom cord, and you’re going to have some kind of floor. I don’t know thatthis would control this…this what he’s talking about is the scaffolding over theroadway.

Unknown[0:52:48]

It would be any way that you installed on those two bays. Say you were doing twobays, it would be any way you installed on those is what they’re talking about,because generally speaking you’re working from the bottom up with a platform andthat’s what that scenario’s all about. That wording might need to be changed or something, but every job I’ve ever done with you is we always had a platformunder there and the weight is from the platform up. Any leg loading you put on thatplatform, scaffolding, just above it, tarps, miscellaneous stuff–and your live load,which is your sand and water – is not supposed to exceed 14 lbs per square foot.

Unknown[0:54:36]

Normally your platform’s here and everything ends up on here.

Unknown Exactly.Unknown In this case, at minimum you’ll have a containment here, and we’re saying 14 lbs

per square foot on that because it’s going to be hung every 44 ft or whatever --Unknown You don’t know how we’re going to hang that, though.

Unknown Yeah, we don’t. You could have a frame here or whatever. But when you’re talkingabout blasting all of this --

Unknown It’s all going to end up right there.Unknown Yeah. In reality, I think we can handle more than 14 lbs per square foot there.

Unknown Exactly. But that’s what I’m saying, you’re going to have to change your wording or make that more understandable or go through some scenario where if you buildscaffold all the way up 50-ft wide. It’s going to get way over 14 lbs per square foot,I believe, the scaffolding.

Unknown[0:55:25]

It will. It will, and I think didn’t we have maximum loading on this bottom cord? Didwe ever talk about that?

Unknown Yeah, we did. The new spec has it.

Unknown So, we’ll probably give you some allowable loads on this cord; so if your scaffold

and any waste or whatever, those are going to be higher numbers.Unknown[0:55:44]

Yeah, I don’t have those in front of me right now, but actually they were fairlygenerous.

Unknown They’re higher than 14 lbs per square foot?

Unknown Yeah, they were --

Unknown Talking about thousands of pounds.

Unknown Yeah. It was like two point loads, 8,000 lbs each or something like that on eachlower cord.

Steve How many pounds each?




Unknown Steve, I don’t remember very reliably, so let’s don’t say right now. It wasn’t, like,2500 lbs. It was quite a bit more than that.

Unknown It was thousands.

Unknown[0:56:35]

Well, for instance, up there at Lewis and Clark, I haven’t been inside or anything,but I’m pretty sure all they’re using for containment are cables, standoffs, andthey’re using swing stages. So they have very minimal loading as far as that goes.

A contractor could come out here and try and do it on this bridge, but I don’t thinkhe would last very long with just cables and standoffs and tarps.

Unknown[0:57:27]

Well, I guess from the – I don’t know that we decided what the spec would say, butthe three-year construction time frame, I mean, are you thinking that’s way tooshort?

Unknown Yes.

Unknown[0:57:46]

With the idea we – because we might want you to have more people and work --cost more money but get it done faster. But then on the other side of that, are wegoing to tell you to do something you can’t do without giving us a ridiculous price,so…

Unknown I mean, if you have six months out of the year, that’s only a year and a half to paintthe bridge which is not going to happen.

Lonnie[0:58:00]

Yeah, you want six containments up there, you’re limited to what you can do andhow many guys you can put in a containment. If you’re sandblasting in a

containment, you can only have four or five guys in there. So, you have to havemore than one containment in order to keep a crew working. That’s why I like myidea of having some work under the roadway to do during the winter so you cankeep your crew working, or keep them working, you know, it just gives them morearea to work.

Unknown[0:58:35]

See, I was thinking one of the scenarios I looked at was about a 150- maybe evena 200-ft-long containment on the top cord. And that will give you room to work atleast six blasters for three days.

Unknown It would take longer than that to blast that much.

Unknown[0:58:55]

Six blasters? When I say 150, you’re only talking about three pound points plus150 ft of box and then the big open wind bracing. I mean, I think our objective is to,I mean, we realize it’s a big structure and you’re going to have to stick some

manpower there. And, we don’t want to dilly-dally, wait a year to start and --Unknown The other thing about this night work, there’s probably work we could do at night,

I’m thinking.

Unknown Painting?

Unknown Yeah. I know it’s better to paint during the day and you can see stuff, but we mayhave to write a spec that just prohibits certain operations at night, you know, thatsort of thing. We may be able to be okay with the noise, and the other thing, didthis noise study, did it come from the City, by any chance, Bill?

Bill No, ODOT did it.

Paul[1:00:00]

ODOT did it? There was just this big redoing of the Darigold building downtownwhere they sandblasted a bunch of stuff at night and all the citizens got in a biguproar about it. So, everybody’s pretty sensitive to these operations at the momentin Astoria. Who knows what it’s going to be like three or four years from now whenwe get into this job, but we might be able to do some stuff at night.

Bill Hey, so we’re talking about the schedule and Paul brought up the noise, it’s a goodsegue into…I met with the noise folks last week. Chris and Troy participated in theconference as well too. And anything over 65 decibels is when you start gettinginto issues where it’s uncomfortable as far as being able to stand next to eachother and hear a conversation. And we gave the noise folks in Salem a list of allthe equipment that’s currently being used on the north span of the bridge. And they




came up with decibels in excess of 100 as far as combined with all the pieces of equipment. And that’s just for just doing like one bay. So if the contractor were todecide to put in, you know, three bays going at the same time, if you add all thosedecibels together, that’s a huge amount of noise that’s going to be generated. Andon this chart here that I have on the screen, 100, 110 decibels is the equivalent of a jet flying over at a thousand feet. So you figure for the summertime, you’relooking at 10 to 12 hours a day on average to have that type of noise going on, thecommunity would pretty much come unglued, definitely at night. Especially with the

hotels you have around the area, I can pretty much guarantee that that type of activity will not be allowed at night.

Corissa We’re getting background noise, Bill.

Bill What?Corissa I’m getting a second conversation going. I can’t hear. Someone’s talking, sorry,

and you’re getting blocked out.Bill Okay.

Janice What was the last thing you heard, Corissa?Corissa I can hear some of them. But there’s someone in the background talking so every

once in a while his words are getting blocked out. So it only comes through acertain amount of time here.

Bill Okay.

Janice Okay.Bill Yeah, we’re just hitting on the noise stuff and given the number of decibels that we

expect the equipment to all be running, it’s very unlikely that we’ll have anynighttime work with that type of activity. I would even go so far as politically theCity could limit us as far as how much noise we can actually make during the day.So if you’re looking at a schedule, we could be limited as well too the number of hours we can generate that type of high-decibel noise during the day. So that mayhave to add time to our schedule to do the job. Assuming you have to cover whatyou blast in one day, so – I haven’t worked out the details yet, but that could besome pushback politically from the City.

Unknown[1:02:41]

You’re talking about pre-Let, though. Are you talking about after the job’s let duringconstruction they’d say, okay, now that’s too noisy --

Bill No, this has to be decided before, you know, be a part of the contract as far aswhen we bid the job, but I’m telling you, internally for ODOT, you might be lookingat four or five years to do the job because summer months, it’s a prime paintingtime, but given the high tourism we have here, you might be limited to four or five aday of work only with those noise levels, for example.

Unknown It might say, for example, no blasting before 9:00 a.m. and shut down by 5:00.

Bill Right.

Unknown[1:03:16]

Is there a way to baffle the noise on any of the equipment?

Unknown Close a traffic lane maybe.

(overlapping conversations)

Bill You know, the north side of the span, probably not so much because we’re over ahalf a mile away from those places. So we’ll probably get away with more. Then it’sas you close the center span, you’re coming south where the noise actually, youknow, you’re closer to the hotels and some of the residences where you’ll probablyget the most pushback. So you’re definitely going to get more work the more northyou go per day than you will as you’re getting closer to the south side is my guess.

Unknown[1:04:00]

Better to have a spec that set the spec at the receptor point rather than at thesource because of what you’re saying.

Bill Right.




Unknown You’d probably do yourself a favor by going and taking some readings on Abhe &Svoboda’s work over there from certain distances away because your decibels at65. You might hit 65 or less by getting 300 feet away from the source.

Unknown I think they did that, but that’s going to depend a lot on the wind. If you’redownwind you hear it. If you’re anywhere else, you won’t.

Unknown You need some measurements to know what, where to set it if you’re going to setit pre-Let.

Unknown

[1:04:45]

We know that if you’re in your hotel room with your windows closed, you’re looking

at—you’re going to decibels of 75. That’s still pretty high. If you’re looking at 65 iswhat the threshold is. So you’re still in your hotel room with the windows closedand you’re still hearing 75 decibels.

Unknown I don’t think you’ll hear it at 75 in your motel room down here. I think you’re far enough away from the source that it’s not going to travel that far. We measured,like 85 right at the source.

Unknown The northwest corner of the Holiday Inn Express is right below the bridge. So if you’re at that location in that south part of the span, it’s going to be – and so that’sthe most critical part right there. And that may only represent, you know, threemonths’ worth of work that’s going to be done at that location. I don’t know.

Unknown Yeah, but, if it’s a calm night and you have the windows open --

Unknown

[1:05:30]

Well, I was with them when they were doing the sand plane over at the Cannery

Hotel, and the manager was out talking to us and he was actually complainingabout the current work.

Unknown The nav lights ?

Unknown The nav lights were making too much noise, so he’s real aware.

Bill Now, a mitigation for that would be a contractor -- and this is totally your choicedepending on, you know, for your employee housing and stuff, you might want tomake a really good negotiation with one of those hotels and just kind of take over ahotel for four or five years. I just offer that up as a conversation you have with thehotel people. Because ODOT does not pay for any kind of disruption as far asconstruction goes. That’s not part of any right-of-way negotiation or any negotiationfor that. That would be a political thing with the community, so.

Unknown Noise is complaint-driven for the large part, so if nobody’s complaining, then we’refine.

Bill Because tolerance is different. No doubt that will have to be covered in the specsas well too.

Lonnie What about any area below the bridge here that we could spot equipment, or setup a yard? Is that going to be allowable?

Unknown[1:06:55]

He’s talking about the park. That’s a no-work area.

Bill That’s a no-work area is right.Unknown Yeah. So this area right underneath the bridge here, yeah.

Unknown And that gets your equipment a lot closer to the motel too, and that’s going to belouder.

Unknown Yeah, I think we’re envisioning all the work from the bridge deck.Lonnie How about using a pier cap for any barge work? Is that going to be allowed? Spot

some equipment on a pier cap?

Unknown We took the barge out.

Bill We took the barge out, yup.Unknown[1:07:38]

With the environmental studies that we had to do for this job, we eliminated thebarge.

Lonnie Not that we don’t need one, but it’s a good option to have.

Unknown I guess what you’re thinking there is to put a compressor or something out on the




pier?

Lonnie A lot of equipment out on the pier. Vacuum truck, dust units, everything. Whatever you don’t have to pull up there daily helps. And if you can keep it serviced on theground, it’s --

Unknown It would be a lot louder in the city if it’s sitting right there on that pier.

Lonnie Well see there, we could build a barrier wall. We could build a sound barrier andhave our yard with a sound barrier wall around it a lot easier than you could do itup on the road deck and have to pick the lane up at the end of the night.

Unknown[1:08:25]

Okay, there’s two questions. One would be on the pier out in the water. The other one would be on the bank. On the bank I think we’ve decided that, no, no on thebank. On the pier, you’d have to get out and back and forth and you got fuelingand unfueling, hauling lead weight back and forth. You think that would be afeasible option that you would like to have?

Lonnie No. I was thinking of this little park down here.

Unknown Oh, you were thinking on the bank.

Unknown Do you want a ferry?

Unknown No. The bank would be --

Lonnie Under the bridge, the closer you can get to it down there by the “red building”(reference to The Red Building and Loft)

Unknown That would be the City.

Lonnie No, that’s the City. It’s part of the park.Unknown But that’s Heritage Park down there, Memorial Park.

Unknown Then you’d have to run stuff through, and the noise can be really loud down therein front of the red building, anything right there, and I don’t think it would fly.

Bill The noise is louder if you have line of sight of the equipment, so the fact thatyou’re elevated, the folks in Salem found that it is then in your favor because youhave your noise is going to be above you, rather than line of sight. The people whomight complain are those on the houses (hillside) on the line of sight on the bridgedeck itself, they may actually have a little more louder noise there than you wouldbelow the decks.

Ivan You are too sensitive. I mean, the work’s got to get done, doesn’t it?Bill I hear you. I hear you.

Unknown I mean, at some point you could say, well, if it’s under a certain decibel that’swithin lawful regulations, so bear with it.

Unknown Yeah, I would hope we haven’t reached the undoable job here.Lonnie Now, I don’t know where you got your 110 decibelreading, but about three weeks

ago I was on the bridge with a decibel meter right next to our loudest piece of equipment and we registered 91. And our loudest piece of equipment would runfive to six hours a day only.

Unknown Okay.

Unknown Yeah, 100 is still too high.

Unknown I think 85 is the legal limit, I think.

Lonnie 85 is acceptable, but 110 and 101, that’s a big difference.Unknown If you’re looking at four or five or six months of, you know, six to eight hours a day

of that noise for five years --

Unknown Well, and you got to remember when we started this off, we’re spending six of those eight hours just putting and taking down containment.

Unknown Yeah, so you got two hours of work a day.

Bill So this is going to be – I’m going to float this campaign with the City and then meetwith the individual hotel owners and they’ll be very sensitive to it. There is adiscussion about, you know, the bridge is a major life link between, as well as




commerce link, between Washington and Oregon. So you’re right, the work has tobe done.

Unknown Back in ‘90.

Bill The lower part?

Lonnie ‘87.

Unknown I was going to say that was just over coating, wasn’t it?Bill And then the rivet thing, too, is pretty critical. It’s maybe about 10,000 rivets or so

that have to be replaced and there’s a certain amount of noise that has to be done

with that as well. Now, those are structural things that have to be repaired if wewant to be able to keep the bridge functional, so, there’s some level that thecommunity is going to have to accept. But we may have to be somewhat flexibletoo on the work timing, so that may bump up the schedule some months or so.Just for everyone’s information, there is going to be a mandatory pre-bid and wehave it scheduled right now for December 4th. And, you will be required to be hereand sign in and then you would be able to go over all the spec information basedon today’s conversation and whatever happens after today and then what goes outfor bid. You’ll have a chance to weigh in and be aware of the information that you’llbe bidding on to help with that, your number.

Unknown What was that date?

Bill December 14th.

Bill It will be here in Astoria. Did I say the 4th? Oh, I’m sorry.Janice You did. Thank you. I wrote the 4th and then I go 14th, and I go, I’m losing it. That

was the 14th to the people on the phone.

Bill This is going to be a six-week ad, and so with the timing and all that’s why we landon the 14th of December, so.

Unknown[1:13:48]

I want to back up to the construction time and the containments. I was looking atthe bays. The actual center span is 28 bays, and if we use the 30 mph, two bays ata time, that would be 14 containments. Assuming everything worked perfect and ittook a month to do a containment that would be 14 months. That’s three summers.

Assuming the end span’s got to fit in there at the same time. It would be a prettycritical path.

Bill Yeah, there would be no dilly-dallying.

Unknown[1:14:41]

You’re saying three years for the main span, and then you got twice as much or –again as much in the two end spans.

Unknown Well, you got three operations. The middle one’s got 28 bays. The end ones areonly 14 so you should be able to finish those 14 while you’re doing these 28 andthose 14, too. So you really got three separate operations going, the center onebeing the critical one.

Unknown And then the contractor’s going to need three sets of equipment, one for eachspan.

Unknown Well, yeah, and we figure on paying for the equipment. To get it done, you’re goingto have to have equipment and manpower. So maybe, you know, a month per twobays is probably okay if everything chugs along perfectly, but that’s quite a bit of work. Is it doable, though? Could you do two bays in a month if you’re working sixmonths a year?

Unknown Two short bays, maybe, not two tall bays.Unknown When I say two bays, I’m talking about two bays in the middle span and two on

each end.Unknown So six bays total in --

Unknown Finishing six bays a month?Unknown I don’t think so.

Lonnie Maybe the second year once you got everything up and running. I mean, you’re




not going—the first summer, you’re going to do a lot of rigging, a lot of setup.

Unknown Maybe the critical path are the two end spans; you could do one plus the middleand then you do the middle. Two setups. That would be four bays going at a time.

Unknown Yeah, I mean, that sounds like the best-case scenario, and we figured for theworst.

Unknown Yeah, I think you’re going to have to work on three spans at a time because you’regoing to be swapping containments. I mean, you finish span one, you’re going tobe working on --

Lonnie What’s the length of that bridge from end to end?Unknown 2500.

Unknown 2500.

Lonnie So then you’re looking at a 3,000-ft lane closure.

Unknown That’s what I was saying earlier.

Lonnie Right now, this summer we’ve been dealing with a thousand ft lane closure and gotcaught with heavy traffic.

Unknown But you’re close to that light. That’s what hurt you.

Lonnie It doesn’t matter. There’s still that much traffic on the bridge. We have a 3,000-ftlane closure up here like we did this last two months with the nav lights, that backsall the way down to the curb to the light here.

Unknown Troy said that’s all been okay, this traffic control that we’ve had up here thissummer.

Unknown What hours have they been working?Unknown 7:00 am to 5:00.

Unknown 7:00 to 5:00 and it’s been okay even at 5:00.

Lonnie We’ve had a long lane closure.

Unknown I mean, at some points it gets bad, but it’s never been down to here ever.

Jamie[1:17:26]

If they’re the only operation on the bridge, it’s actually went very well. I mean, I’mtalking for the, what we get feedback from the public.

Unknown How many months?

Unknown It’s been for the last three months.

Unknown Well, I mean, yeah, but we’ve been dealing for a couple years like that. It’s been

maintainable.Jamie Now, if there’s anything else going on.

Unknown[1:14:48]

Well, you got to keep the traffic flowing. I mean, you don’t do where you hold boththe traffic and have some operation going in the lane.

Unknown No.

Lonnie That’s what I’m talking about, stopping traffic for so long to do something.

Unknown What are they doing up there that they need the whole bridge?

Unknown They were installing solar lighting up there.

Jamie This is where we had two operations. Maintenance had one contract operation.Troy has the other and it has caused a little bit of queue problems. I will be honest.

Unknown[1:18:19]

Yeah. It’s a little minor thing, but we bolted these, from where you’re sitting, Steve,you can see a solar panel up there on the end. We bolted walkways to the top of

that box meter so we’ve got to figure out what we’re going to do with that. I don’tknow how you paint the box meter under the walkway without taking it off.

Unknown Just take it off.Unknown[1:18:40]

And a bunch of new platforms and railings were installed. There’s a lot of stuff that’s going to have to get protected, a lot of stuff. There’s cameras up there,weather stations, everything.

Unknown It’s going to be a little complicated part of the job.Unknown Okay, Bill?




Unknown At that pre-bid meeting, are you going to have available access to get up there andlook?

Unknown December 14th?

Unknown December 14th.

Unknown[1:19:15]

Not allowed to get out of the truck over 25.

Unknown Yeah, we definitely should.

Bill Okay. We can plan for it, but it’s just weather-dependent, of course.

Unknown It’s always good to do it in that way --Bill Well, we do have enough information. There’s a lot of photographs and as far as

the condition of the steel, but we can try and, we can plan to have access up intothose girders up there. But as I say, weather-dependent.

Unknown Yeah, you can, there’s stairs going to the very top and then there’s a ladder on theend there. So it’s either, the ladder’s scarier than the stairs, but depending on whatthe weather’s like, you can get access. At a minimum, it’s probably a good ideaeven if nobody wants to climb around the superstructure because you can seewhat Ivan was talking about that room behind the barrier.

Unknown So I can see we could take a lane for pretend that we’re up there and just haveeveryone be able to walk into one side --

Unknown[1:20:19]

Yeah, it might just be that everybody gets out and looks at it and that’s all we need.But good. People might want to actually try and inspect what they’re going to do.

Bill We’ll do what we can to make it accessible.

Unknown With your permission, of course.

Bill Well, we’re coming up just about on 11:30 here with a half hour to go. We certainlycan end early if we need to. If anyone has any other questions, any other itemsthey want to bring up that are outside the agenda we hit on today?

Unknown[1:21:00]

I had a question. Are there any other environmental restrictions we need to knowabout far as the construction and the falcons?

Corissa The only other restriction would be staging, or putting—I could hear part of it, butsome of it disappeared out—is any of the containment that would go underneaththe bridge, underneath the deck because there is nesting peregrine falcons downthere.

Unknown There shouldn’t be any work underneath the bridge because all the work stops atthe top of the rail.

Corissa Yeah. We weren’t sure where, if any of the construction, I mean the people whowere actually going to be constructing it would have a reason to put any kind of containment or anything underneath the bridge deck.

Unknown Yeah. We had that – we wondered if there was a possibility of anybody wanting tostage stuff underneath the deck.

Unknown That’s possible.Unknown Yeah.

Unknown[1:21:54]

Where are these falcons at?

Jamie Wherever they want to be. Where are they at, Corissa, right now?Corissa I don’t know exact nest spots. They’re not nesting this year. They’ve nested therefor several years. They’re highly political birds. Their on a lot of the news channelsand they have several different agencies that come up and actually watch themthroughout the year. But there’s, I think, three no-nesting spots, but during certaintimes of the year, they have their nest down there and they become quite agitatedand are known to dive bomb people.

Unknown What time of year is their nesting period?

Corissa Let me look it up real quick. I don’t have it offhand. I do believe it’s --




Bill Our bio submitted a good email about that so we can --

Corissa Yeah. Let me pull it up. Because it’s off the normal nesting period, so.

(off-mike conversations)

Unknown[1:23:23]

While we’re waiting, Bill, if we do stage under the deck, is there any problems withthe Coast Guard?

Unknown Isn’t there a 10-ft requirement if you go below 10 ft you have to notify navigation?Bill That I’m not sure. I’d have to find out if we were going to go lower than 10 ft below

the bottom of the deck.

Unknown[1:23:45]

That’s what we were working with in Newport, as long as we’re not 10 ft below thebridge, then it’s fine.

Ivan That’s what we were envisioning is somebody might decide to build a platform upthere underneath the deck and stage equipment.

Unknown Right, well, we’ll definitely have to run through that when we do the project for thebottom part, below the deck work.

Unknown I don’t know how practical that would be because if I was going to put a temporaryplatform, I would put it on the top of the cord knot under the deck.

Unknown Yeah, exactly.

Unknown[1:24:21]

They have to know this for the falcon reason. Whether somebody does it or not, if we had to make the call on whether to prohibit it or not, I think we decided not toprohibit it, so.

Unknown I don’t know. The latest specs, I think, prohibit it.

Unknown Oh, okay. So that was --Bill Yeah, we do.

Corissa Yeah, underneath right now is prohibited.

Ivan That’s where we ended up, okay.

Unknown Corissa, let me ask you – go ahead.

Unknown I’d say possibly, it could be useful, it would only be a small platform, but you couldput it anywhere out there. It wouldn’t have to be right on top of your work or righton top of a pier or anything.

Unknown Like a quick tick platform?

Lonnie A work platform to put a small compressor there.

(overlapping conversations)Unknown I don’t think it would need to hang more than 10 feet below the bottom cord.

Unknown Well, what she’s saying is there’s permit issues and the falcon issues putting stuff under there, so unless there’s a big advantage, we’re just going to tell you no.

Corissa Right.

Unknown There’s some advantage. I mean, there’s always an advantage to havingequipment out there versus having to pack it all out there and have it in a truck.

Unknown[1:25:31]

Well, there’s, obviously there’s room.

Unknown I mean, there could be, maybe --

Ivan I know there’s room up there, but you got to paint that area, you got to putcontainment in that area. I mean, you’d have to paint an area, then you’d have to

stage after you’re done painting.Unknown No, because the bottom cord’s not getting painted.

Unknown It’s still going to be the base of your containment on the side.Unknown Ivan just brought up a point that the containment will go down to the top of the

bottom cord.Ivan Right.

Unknown So is that considered below the deck? I’m just talking about for language in theenvironmental documents that they have to prepare. Did you hear that, Corissa?




Corissa No, no, all I can hear is paper shuffling.

Janice That’s because it’s by Ivan. Hang on here.Ivan What I was saying was the containment will be resting on the top of the bottom

cord and what I was wondering was is it, for your paperwork or whatnot, does thatneed to be defined because that’s technically probably below the deck, but it’s notlike we’re encasing the steel underneath there. It’s just the containment is going tobe resting on there.

Corissa I think it could be done and it would be something that the spec writers would have

to look at, is basically not being a visual, in vision of, you know, visual, I don’t evenknow how to put it, so the birds can’t see it from where the nests are.

Bill Yeah, Steve Gisler, a biologist, sent an email that really addressed this and I don’thave it with me, but it’s been worked out as far as that limit on where it’s --

Corissa Yeah, so the limit’s pretty good. And he says it pretty well on the part of it. I mean,the difference is too, is always, here’s the quick thing is if we don’t have anynesting peregrines underneath there, there’s no issue. So I mean, here’s thehorrible thought of it is, but this may actually be beneficial is that all the work,peregrines decide not to nest there. But if they decide not to nest there, there is noissue. So, but if one of the things that, you know, once we get into it and theperegrines aren’t there, then it opens up a door.

Jamie So it’s all on luck or on – can we put a closed sign where they nest?

Corissa Yeah, no, we can’t do that. But the other thing is that the birds do dive bomb. So,and they’re one of the fastest dive bombing birds in the world. So they’re one of the things are when they do get disturbed, they do feel threatened, they dobecome very agitated. And I know that bridge maintenance crews had to deal withthat in the past, so.

Jamie So they’re alpha birds.

Unknown Don’t peregrine falcons usually nest in the top of the bridge?

Corissa No, they nest underneath.Jamie Yeah, isn’t that wild?

Unknown They normally are up in the top.Unknown I think it’s too much wind above the deck.

Unknown They don’t like it here, probably.

Jamie But if they didn’t nest there this year…

Corissa So, it’s the first year in a long time that we haven’t had a nesting bird. And they’vebeen there for, like, seven years. And what they do, so people understand, isthere’s lots of groups that come out here, probably like seven or eight that comeout and actually take note of the nesting peregrines every year. I know, I think it’sChannel 2 News who even have the one in Portland on the 405 bridge, they comeout and they’ll talk about these birds, too. So they’re politically known birds. Butyeah, if they’re not nesting there, there’s not an issue. So, I mean, that wouldchange it all, but we would not do anything to, I mean, I don’t know, that may besomething to talk about if they want to do preventing. I just don’t know if that’spolitically possible on this one. But the thing is we just avoid going underneath thebridge as in Steve’s email, it will be okay.

Bill So any other conversations or items that people want to bring up?

Unknown[1:29:33]

Is the traffic control allowed in the specs that I don’t have?

Unknown Yeah, right now, I think that this limits it if I remember --

Unknown Weekdays, I’m assuming. Weekdays only?Unknown Except for holidays.

Unknown Yeah. It’s not weekends. Here’s what I would – I don’t know, I think the specs aregoing to be modified a little bit. I’ll just say that because our current spec out there




allows them to work anytime, any day at our discretion. So basically, if the trafficgets bad, we’ll tell them to pack it up, which we’ve only had to do a couple days,but they’ve been able to work on the weekends too.

Unknown What about holidays?

Unknown No. Holiday weekends we’ve limited it.

Unknown[1:30:24]

Friday at three o’clock?

Unknown Yeah.

Unknown Yeah, or noon.Unknown Or the day preceding a holiday? And we’re probably going to include the 5th of

July in there?

Unknown Yeah, lessons learned.

Unknown We’ll make July 5th a holiday.

Unknown That was the worst day ever. That’s the one worst day, the day after the 4th of July.

(overlapping conversations)

Unknown Which next year it will be on Monday.

Unknown Yeah, so it will be that Tuesday afternoon. Nobody goes home until the day after.We’ve learned that.

Unknown[1:30:50]

Troy, you just have to work 24 hours straight.

Corissa I do have the email. Does anybody want it or do you want me to read it?

Jamie How lengthy is it, Corissa?

Corissa It’s two paragraphs.

Unknown Oh, you could read it.

Jamie Go for it.Corissa Okay. I’ll start from reading it word for word. “Hi, everyone. It looks like we’re in

pretty good shape regarding the lack of bird conflict on the upcoming Megler Bridge painting. As a point, I want to touch base with you and discuss the bestcourse of action for bird-related 290s. The consequences so far seem to be thatthere are only expected to occur in the floor beams, bracing and/or other steelwork

under the deck. As far as I can determine, nobody has observed nesting above thedeck where the work will occur. Quentin says the containment will only attach tothe lower cord but not wrap under the deck where the birds are likely to be. AFIShas agreed” – AFIS is basically the federal bird place that helps us deal with birds

– “has agreed to be on call in the unanticipated event a nest is encountered abovethe deck. Given these facts, it seems to be that if we can identify a no-work zoneunder the deck or otherwise enforce a lack of containment and/or the other workunder the deck, then the standard specs should cover us and we won’t need anyspecials for birds. The standard specs still require basic compliance with the lawand stopping work, contacting the engineer if work might disturb an active nest.The break in work would provide the opportunity to coordinate with AFIS if needed.However, although the under-deck no-work zone approach might be the most

straightforward for minimizing bird risk, maybe there are contractual down sides tothe approach that I’m not aware of.” So, and that was the whole thing. Basically, if there’s a wrap underneath the deck, we should be fine, but of course if we startcausing issues with the nesting birds, that’s still an issue.

Bill Okay, well, we’ll definitely have notes from today’s meeting that will be posted onthat same website on the ODOT construction site where you got information aboutthis meeting, or I could even, I have your email addresses. I could send it all to youtoo so you could refer to them.

Unknown I had a question on the warranty. You have a three-year warranty specified in this.




[1:33:15] What’s the protocol for that? Are you inspecting it? Are we inspected or is it just if you see something, is access supposed to be provided to somebody?

Unknown It’s an annual warranty. We provide the access. We invite the contractor, so it’s amutual --

Unknown It’s a walk-through annually?

Unknown Yeah, and as far as access, it kind of depends. Usually, for sure, it would be just awalk-through and maybe climb up a ladder. If we suspect something or seesomething the second year we might go a little more. And then the third year is

kind of the final one and the punch list and it usually gets taken care of; we agreewhat you’re going to take care of. And the warranty reads pretty much anythingthat’s a defect. The exception to that would be, you know, crevices where there’spack rust or steel-to-concrete connect surfaces where you could see themperfectly. But any flat steel surface that has corrosion is considered a defect. Andnormally if there’s, you know, a tiny bit, we wouldn’t do anything. If it’s significant,then we agree what the repairs are going to be. And the repairs are based on the594 painting spec which tells you how to do repairs, which is basically go back tostep one and do it over.

Unknown So three years we’re --Unknown So it’s three years, another thing I might add is --

Unknown

[1:34:55]

Three years from the second notification.

Unknown Yeah, three years from the second notification.

Unknown It might be six years after you’ve done your first painting on this job.

Unknown Yeah, the language actually says that if we see significant defects that would besignificant after the first inspection, we could require you to repair those, you know,basically every year. But generally it’s accumulated until the end unless it wassomething serious.

Unknown Mike, instead of putting five full coats on this job…Unknown At a year?

Unknown[1:35:42]

It doesn’t take that much longer to put a full coat than a strike coat. I’d saycontractor protection. For your protection, plus a chance to have problems. Whathave you seen in the past for problems?

Unknown Well, one of the things I’ve seen is spray up high on the top coat without striking or pre-striking it. Don’t get the millet. If the contractor follows that specification,basically, ever inch on that bridge gets five coats of paint with a brush.

Unknown Where you see a lot of initial problems on warranty are out in the flat area of your steel, and I thought we somewhat came to the conclusion that a lot of that might belight…..

Unknown I guess we could consider you’re probably only going to add a couple percentagesto the cost of the paint job, bid price, a couple percent?

Unknown Yeah, it would be very small in my opinion.

Unknown[1:37:03]

And that wouldn’t hurt you, time wise.

Unknown Not really. That’s my opinion.Unknown Two coats of primer? Two coats intermediate. One coat top coat.

Unknown We use two coats of primer anyway. It’s just easier and does a better job.Lonnie As long as the containment’s up, give yourself two, three extra days and you’ll

have your two extra spray coats on them.Unknown Five days for you, Lonnie.

Unknown Where are you seeing a lot of corrosion up there? I mean, in the flat areas?Unknown[1:38:00]

In those flat areas, the connections, the big box core over in where the tower risesabove the deck, those big laterals. There’s areas, and not necessarily where the




water was stacked up, there’s areas where it’s just corroded all the way across. Ithad to do with the paint job originally. It’s scattered out. We considered a spotpainting job, but when we started looking at it, it just didn’t add up. The corrosion,you know, it’s not what I’d consider terrible. There are some areas that are worse,but we’ll get you access to it. Obviously, you know, the connections at the top arereally the only big connections to do, the bottom ones are not part of the work.

Unknown[1:39:09]

The bottom connections, now that I think about it, are going to get full of sand andlead ex or blast ox and that’s another good reason to go ahead and do them.

Unknown You’re going to have to have some kind of a floor above the top cord, plug it off,stop the --

Unknown You can keep it out of the cord, but you can’t keep it out of the point.

Unknown And vacuum it out when you’re done.

Unknown[1:39:32]

What if – it’s going to get wet. There’s sand and the lowest points always get wet. Imean, if might not in July and August and September, but I’m just saying that’sgoing to end up being a contractor’s problem area is where the --

Unknown Well, one of the things we were thinking when we cut it off there is, if you go downto the top of the parapet, you’re going to take off all the lead. So if you get off allthe lead, the next job is urethane coating so we don’t have to deal with lead. We’regoing to paint the lower part of it within, you know, four, whenever we finish thisone, so if you get some minor damage, it’s not going to be as big a deal. It’s not

going to be --

Unknown Yeah, I mean, we’re going to expect you to suck the lead waste out of there, but --

Unknown[1:40:25]

What it does, it gets hard and then it adheres like concrete, lightly adheringconcrete, if it gets wet and stays in there for a while.

Lonnie But we’re going to be working a lot off that bottom box cord and we’re going to bebuilding scaffolding on it and hitting it with a hammer. We’re going to damage thatcoating job. Are we expected to repair that or just walk away?

Unknown Leave it like you found it.

Ivan The spec says if you damage it, you repair it.Unknown[1:41:00]

Yeah, I guess I would expect you to put it back as like condition. And on the other side of that, I’d say that I’m not going to be real picky about that with the idea thatwe’re going to paint it, so maybe just slap some myozinc on it, I don’t know.

Bill Okay. Well, I want to thank everyone for participating. I know it was voluntary buthopefully those who are here and witnessed it can learn a little bit more and helpwith their decision to bid and to submit a good bid. So, those who, again, areinterested in bidding, December 14th is a date you want to have in your calendar to come up and editorially come and take a look.

Meeting ended at 11:46 am

Respectfully submitted,




By Paula Pinyerd, ABC Transcription Services, Inc.Janice See, Assistant to Larry McKinley, NW Area Manager, ODOT

Constructability Review Page 27 of 27

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Transcripcion de una Entrevista a Contructores y diseñadores de Puentes