SPI 244 Bootstrapping a StartUp with Nathan Barry from ConvertKit€¦ · companies do this. I know Buffer app does it and ConvertKit, too, where you can see their monthly recurring

SPI 244

Bootstrapping a StartUp with Nathan Barry from ConvertKitDecember 14, 2016

Show NoteS: http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/session244

1

Pat: ThisisTheSmartPassiveIncomePodcastwithPatFlynn,session

number244,244,244.

Announcer: WelcometotheTheSmartPassiveIncomePodcastwhereit’sall

aboutworkinghardnow,soyoucansitbackandreapthebenefits

later.Nowyourhost,hewantsyoutomovetoSanDiegoandhang

out,dude,chilling,PatFlynn.

Pat: What’sup,everybody?Thankyousomuchforjoiningmetoday

insession244ofTheSmartPassiveIncomePodcast.Thankyou

allforyourbirthdaywishesaswell.Ijustturned34andI’mfeeling

youngasever,feelingfit,feelinghappy,feelingstress-freedespite

havingmanyprojectsgoingon.Youknowwhat,thoseprojectsfuel

myhappiness.Iwouldn’tbedoingthemunlessIwashappyand,

hopefully,you’reworkingonstuffthat’smakingyouhappy,too.If

not,hopefully,you’reworkingtowardgettingtothatpoint.

Todaywehaveagreatguestontheshowwithus.ThatisNathan

Barrywhoyoumayhavehardbeforeontheshow.He’sbeenon

acoupleoftimesbefore.Oncetotalkabouthise-bookbusiness

whichhesincecloseddownbecausehestartedanewsoftware

businesscalledConvertKit.WestartedtalkingtogetherwhenI

switchedfromInfusionsoftwhichwasa…Actually,Iswitchedfrom

AWeberwhichisanemailserviceprovidertoInfusionsofttothen

ConvertKit,hisproduct,andwhyIusethatforemailservicenow.

Forthoseofyouwhoareonmyemaillistyou’llbegettingemails

fromConvertKitorhavegottenthemalready.Iloveitbecauseitjust

doessomanythingssoeasy.

IwantedtotalktoNathanagaintodaytotalkabouthowhewas

abletobootstrapthatbusinesswhichisnowmakingover$5million

ayear.Iwasactuallyrightthereinthebeginningwhenhestarted

thisthingandhaveseenhimgrowovertime.Nowhe’sonthis

exponentialcurveupwardandIwantedtotalkabouthowhe’sbeen

abletodothat.Also,Iwantedtotalkaboutsomeofthegrowing

painsbecauseit’sdefinitelyscarywhenIthinkofmyselfifIwerein

hispositioncreatingabusinesslikehe’sdonewithamuchlarger

teamnowandallthethingsthatareinvolvedwiththat.It’snot

http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/

http://smartpassiveincome.com/session244


2

necessarilysomethingIwouldwanttodo.Ithinkit’ssomethingthat

weneedtotalkabout,sothatyoucanseeifthisisathingthatyou

wantornot.

Formanyofyouthisisexactlywhatyouwantandforsomeofyou

youmightseethat,well,thebusinessideayouhavewhichcould

potentiallyleaddownthisroadisn’twhatyouwant.It’simportant

tounderstandthesethingsnowbeforeyouputinthattime,money,

andeffortintosomething.Youwanttobeputtingthattime,money,

andeffortintosomethingthatyouknowthatyouwant.That’swhy

we’retalkingwithpeoplewhoaresuccessfulonthisshow,soyou

canseewhichonesresonatewithyouornot.LikeIsaidtoday

we’retalkingwithNathanBarry,CEOandFounderofConvertKit,a

companythatI’malsoanadvisorfor.

I’manadvisorforafewcompaniesandwhatthatmeansisIhave

alittlebitofaroleintermsofhelpingthatcompanybasedonmy

expertise,basedonmypositioninthemarketplaceandbasedon

whatIseeandhear.IcanhelpthemoutbysharingwhatIhearfrom

thefrontlinesfromyouguys,youlistening,whatyoulike,whatyou

dislikeandIcanpassthatonandhelpimprovethecompanyin

thatway.Wetalkalittlebitmoreaboutthespecifics,wealsotalk

aboutnumbers,wealsotalkaboutwhatthatdealislike,myselfas

anadvisorforthiscompany.Thisisallreallyinterestingstuff.Thisis

brandnewtomeandit’slikelybrandnewtoyouaswell.

Hey,we’regoingtodiverightin,sohere’sNathanBarryfrom

ConvertKit.com.Forthoseofyouwhoaregoingtoendupusing

itatsomepointyoucanusemyaffiliatelinkifyou’dlikewhichis

SmartPassiveIncome.com/ConvertKitwhichatnoextracosttoyou

putsalittlebitofmoneybackintoSPIwhichisawesome.Again

that’sSmartPassiveIncome.com/ConvertKitandhere’sNathan.

What’supeverybody,I’msohappytowelcomebacktotheshow,

NathanBarry,CEOandFounderofConvertKit.com.Welcomeback,

Nathan,howareyou?

Nathan: Doingwell,thanksforhavingmeback.




3

Pat: Thankyoufortakingthetime.Iknowyoujustgotbackfromatripto

Thailand.Youweretheretospeakandyou’vebeenspeakingquite

abitandhavebecomeknowninthisspaceforsomebodywho’s

builtthisamazingcompany.I’mnotjustsayingthatbecauseI’man

advisorforthecompanyandI’mjustverythankfultobeapartofit,

butbecauseyoubuiltthecompanyinawaythat’salittledifferent

thanalotoftheotherSaaScompaniesandsoftwaresolution

companiesouttherewherepeoplearegettingventurecapitaland

angelinvestingandgettingawholebunchofpeopletoputmoney

in.Youwereabletodoitpurelybootstrapped,isthatcorrect?

Nathan: Yeah,sowehaven’ttakenanyoutsidemoney.It’sbeenentirely

customerfundedotherthanIputinsomemoneyovertimethat

endedupbeingabout$65,000overthelifeoftheentirecompany.

Pat: Okay.

Nathan: OtherthanthatI...fromcustomers.

Pat: That’sawesomeandthatisaprettyuniquestoryIthinkoutthere

especiallywithsomethingthisbigandthissuccessful.Currently

canyousharesomeofthenumbers?We’rerecordingthisrightnow

inOctoberof2016.Mostofyouwhoarelisteningtothisrightnow

arelisteningtoitattheendof2016orperhapsinthefuture,soit’s

probablygrownevenmoresincerecordingthis.

What’sreallycoolisConvertKitalsosharestheirnumbers

transparentlyonasitecalledBaremetricsandafewother

companiesdothis.IknowBufferappdoesitandConvertKit,too,

whereyoucanseetheirmonthlyrecurringrevenue,theirannual

runratewhichishowmuchmoneythey’resettomakeinrevenue

everyyearbasedonthenumberofuserstheyhave.Youcaneven

seeinrealtimehowmanycustomersaresubscribingandwhat

they’repayingandallthatstuff.Doyouhaveanynumberstoshare

rightnow?Obviously,Iknowyoudon’tmindsharingbecauseit’s

outthereintheworld,butwhereareyouguysatrightnow?

Nathan: Yeah,sowe’reat$440,000amonthinmonthlyrecurringrevenue.




4

That’sfromjustover9,000customersandwe’regrowingbyabout

8%everymonth.

Pat: That’sinsaneandthatequatestoaboutalittleover$5.25million

everysingleyear.Nowabigquestion,howmuchofthatisprofitat

thispoint?Iknowyouhaveabigteamandyoupaythemandyou

havetopayforresourcestomakeyourcompanywork.Ofthe440K

permonthhowmuchofitisleftover?

Nathan: Sure.

Pat: Iknowyouusethattogrowthecompanyevenmore.

Nathan: Yeah,sothat’sactuallybeenabigjourneyforusbecausebackin

Januaryof2016wewerelosingmoney.Weactuallylostmoneythat

monthandsowemadeahugepushtogetprofitable.Wewentfrom

losingmoneyto3percentprofitmarginsto10andthenbyJuneof

thisyearwewereat52%profitmargins.Thatwasreallyskewing

tooheavilytowardsprofitandsothenwereadjusted.Sincethen

we’vebeenoperatingatabout30%profitmargins.That’stheright

balanceofsavingupenoughmoneyandhavingthiswarchest.

Reallyyouneedalotofcashinthebankwhenyougettothepoint

whereyou’respendinga$.25millionamonthonstaffandservers

andallofthat,so30%isaboutwherewesitrightnow.

Pat: It’sreallyinteresting.Thatrighttherewhatyoujustsaidthatyou

werestillintheredinJanuaryof2016eventhoughthecompany’s

beenupforawhile.Ithinkalotofpeoplewhentheybuildtheir

softwarebusinessestheyexpecttohavesomeprofitrightaway.

Canyouspeaktorealistically,especiallyifyouarenotgetting

capitalfromoutsidesources,whattheexpectedtimelineisforthe

revenuegrowthandwhenitstartstobecomeprofitable.

Nathan: Yeah,Ithinkthere’snostandard.Buildingasubscriptionbusiness

takesalotlongerthanIthoughtitwould.Icamefromthee-book

worldandsothatyoucanbuildupanaudienceof1,000people

andlaunchacoursetothemandyou’vegot$10,000inrevenue

relativelyquickly.ThatwasnotmyexperiencewithSaaSatall,




5

softwareasaservice.Itreallytookalongtimetogetgoing.Ithink

otherpeoplecouldhavedoneitfasterintheearlydays,butreally

inthelast2yearswe’veprobablydoneitfasterthanmostother

companiesoutthere.OntheprofitsideIwouldexpecttorunat

breakevenwhereyou’respendingeverydollarthatcomesin.I

wouldplantodothatforalongtime.Wedidthatupanduntilwe

wereabout$120,000amonthinrevenue.

Oneofouremployees,Ithinkthe4themployeethatwebroughtin

hecameinatpart-timeandIthinkhestarted15hoursaweek.The

nextweekIwaslikehey,Matt,canyouswitchto20hoursaweek?

Then2weekslaterIwaslikecanyougoto30.Hewaslike,okay,

wow,Imustbedoingagoodjob.Hewasdoingagreatjob,butalso

wewerebuyingmorehoursfromhimasMMRincreased.Basically,

wejustspentthemoneyexactlyaswehadit.Iwouldsayexpectto

dothatforalongtime.

Pat: Nowyouweretakingmoneyforyourselfatthistime,right?You

werepayingyourselfasalaryorwereyounot?

Nathan: IstartedpayingmyselfasalaryJanuaryofthisyear,soIwasthree

yearsinbeforeIstartedpayingmyselfasalary.Thenlaterthis

summerIfinallyrepaidthemoneythatIloanedthecompanywhich

wasatotalofabout$65,000.

Pat: Backtoyourself?

Nathan: Yeah,andfortaxreasonsthatendedupbeingaloanandthena

repaymentofaloan.

Pat: Isee,soforthreeyearsyoudidn’thaveanincomecomingin.Isthat

thewayyou’retryingtoexplainit?

Nathan: Yeah,Imademymoneyfrommyblogandfrommye-books.Ihad

thisideaofoh,I’mgoingtofocusonConvertKitandit’sgoingto

takeoffandwhileitdoesthismybooksandcoursesaregoing

tocontinuetosellandsoIdon’tneedtoworryaboutmoney,but

IfocusedentirelyonConvertKitand100%neglectedtheother




6

business.Itwentfromaboutaveraging$15,000amonthinrevenue,

theotherbusinessthatis,itdroppeddownprettyquicklytoabout

$2,000amonth.

I’mreallybadatbalancingdifferentbusinesses.Somepeoplecan

jugglealotofthingsanddothatsuccessfully.Ican’t.Itrieditfora

longtime.Iwouldeachmonthwatchmybooksandcoursescoast

downcloserandclosertozeroandjustfocusedonConvertKit,so

Iactuallyendedupcashingoutallofmyinvestments.Ihadabout

$50,000in...sojust...andstuff.Iendedupsellingallofthat

offjusttoliveoffofbecauseIdidn’twanttotakefocusawayfrom

ConvertKitasitwasgoingwell.Yeah,that’showIlivedfor3years

withouttakingasalary.

Pat: Nowwasthat…Okay,soI’mthinkingaboutwhatit’slikefor

somebodytolistentothis.Youhadbuiltasuccessfulcompanyfrom

thegroundup,nobootstrapping,butyoudidhavesomemoneyset

asideandyouhadthisotherbusinessgoingforyou.Ifsomebody

weretosay,Nathan,Iwouldlovetobuildabusinessandbootstrap

itjustlikeyoudid,Ithinkit’sfantastic,youdon’thavetoshare

anyofyourcompanywithotherpeopleandgiveupalittlebitof

controlthatway,butIdon’thavethatsidebusinesslikeyouhad.

Youhadandyou’vebeenontheshowbeforetalkingaboutthis,a

verysuccessfule-bookbusiness.Yousharedwithussomeamazing

pricetierstructuresthatallowedyoutoreallymaximizetheimpact

thatyouwerehavingwiththosebooks.

AsareminderNathanwascreatingbooks,helpingdesignersand

appcreatorswiththeirUIandhehasanexpertiseinuserinterface

whichiswhyIfeelConvertKit’sactuallyoneofthebestoutthere

becauseitjustlooksandfunctionsgreat.Tosomebodywho’s

askingthemselves,man,Iwouldlovetobootstrapabusinesslike

Nathan,butIdon’thavethatsidebusiness.I’mworkingninetofive,

Idon’thavethatmoneyinthemoney,isbootstrappingabusiness

likeyoudidevenpossibleoristhatmoneynecessary,sothatyou

cantakethemonthsoryearsevenwithouttakinganyincomefrom

thatbusinessthatyou’rebuilding?




7

Nathan: Yeah,soitdependsalotonthetypeofbusiness.Ifyou’retryingto

buildsomethingofthescaleofConvertKitorreallyanysoftware

andaservicebusinessit’sgoingtotakealotandittakesaskill

set,soIwouldnotstartthatasyourfirstbusiness.JasonFriedfrom

Basecamptalksaboutmakingmoneybeingaskillandsomething

thatyoushouldpracticeovertimejustlikeyouwouldplayingdrums

orcookingoranyotherskill.

IthinkofitasaSaaScompanyorasoftwareofanykindisatype

ofbusinessandalevelofskillthatyoushouldattemptafteryou’ve

spentafewyearspracticing.Ithinkdoingservicesforotherpeople

that’sagreatbaselineofwheretostartandthenyoucanrampup

intosimpleproducts.Thosemightbebooksorcourses,iPhone

applications,someofthesemorestandalonesmallerthingsbefore

makingthestepintofull-fledgedsoftware.Asyouestablishthose

skillsyou’llalsoestablishtheabilitytoearnincomebeforeyou

attemptsomethingthat’sreally,reallydifficultandtakesalongtime

whichissoftwareasaservice.

Pat: Anotherthingthatcomestomindisyouhadanaudiencealready

andhadmanypeoplewhowerebuildingtheirownemaillistand

buildingtheirownblogsandbrands.Justasyoumentionedthelast

timeyouwereontheshowyoubuiltConvertKitforyourselfand

peoplelikeyou.Whenyoustartedityoualreadyhadsomekind

ofanaudiencewhocouldalreadyuseitwhichdiffersfromalotof

peoplewhohavetheseideasforthesesoftwaresormaybethey’re

comingupwithsolutionsforproblemsthattheyhave,buttheydon’t

haveanaudienceyet.Here’sabigquestion,isbootstrappingfor

everybodyandwouldyourecommendpeopleevengooutandget

venturecapitaliftheydon’thavethoseresources?

Nathan: Yeah,soIseethemastwodifferentthings.One,Idon’tthinkthat

bootstrappingisforeveryone.There’salotoftypesofbusinesses

thatbenefitreallywellfromgettingventurecapital.Ithinkalotof

peoplethinkofventurecapitalasanecessarystepandI’dsayin

mostbusinessesit’snot.Certainlyforourbusinesswe’vebeen

abletodoitwithoutfunding.Itwouldacceleratethetimelineif

you’reabletoraisefunding.You’llbasicallyeitherwinorlosefaster.




8

Thestakesarehigheratthatpoint.Whatmighthavebeenagreat

$20,000amonthbusinesswhichyou’dnevercomplainabout,if

thatwasbootstrapthat’sasuccess.Ifyouraisehalfamilliondollars

oracoupleamillionofventurecapitalandthat’sthepinnacleof

whatyoucanachieveeven$100,000amonththatwouldbea

failure.Theywouldbepushingyoutohigherlimits.

Iwouldwatchoutfortheideaofventurecapitalbeingafirststep

thatyouhavetoachievebecauseit’slikeaskingpermissionfrom

someoneelsetostartyourbusinessbecauseyou’resayingIcan

getcustomersonceIconvincetheseangelinvestorstogiveme

aquartermilliondollars.Idon’tlikethat.Thefirstplacetogoisto

customersandsoI’dstartthere.Youcannevergowrongtryingto

sellcustomersandgetpreordersandthatkindofthingfromday

onebecauseyouknowifthebusinessworks.Whatwouldbeawful

istoputinabunchofDCmoneyorabunchofyourownmoney

andthenfindoutsixmonthsorayearormoredowntheroadthat

nooneactuallywantstobuywhatyou’reselling.It’stooeasytodo

thatifyou’refundingitsomeotherwaythanwithcustomers.

Pat: Right,right.Thenwhenitcomestothemoneyrequiredtostartthis

business,youhadthisotherbusinessthatwashelpingyou,you

hadsomemoneyinthebankalready,howmuchmoneywould

beneeded?Howdoesoneevenknowwhatthecostswouldbeif

somebody’sdoingsoftware,forexample?Wouldtheyactuallygo

andreachouttoadeveloperorpotentiallypartnerwithsomebody

andjustseewhatthatcostwouldbeandworkbackwardsfrom

therebeforetheygettoapointwherethey’relike,okay,I’vesaved

upenoughmoney,I’mgoingtotaketheplungeandactuallystart

buildingthisthing.Wheredoesthat…Youhadenoughtostart,how

doessomebodyknowtheyhaveenoughtostart?

Nathan: Yeah,soifyouhavecustomersyoucanalwaysworkonit…Oryou

getpreorders,youcanalwaysworkonitwiththatmoney.WhereI

wouldstartistalktocontractors,getestimates,andthenprobably

tripleorquadruplethoseasfarastogetarealisticamountofwhat

you’regoingtospend.




9

Pat: Right,right.

Nathan: Thenanotherbigfactorisgoingtobeyourownskillset.Ifyou

knownothingaboutbuildingsoftwarethenexpectthatyou’re

goingtoleadthesecontractorsdownsomeotherroutethatis

goingtowasteabunchoftimeandmoneyoryou’renotgoing

tocommunicatewiththemefficiently.Iwouldspendsometime

learningthebasicsofsoftwaredesign,learningthebasicsofuser

experience,howtowireframeoutsoftwareandexplainthisiswhat

I’mtryingtoaccomplishmorethanjustalistoffeatures.

Themoreyoucandothatandthemoreyouunderstandaboutthe

processthemoretimeyou’llsaveorthemoremoneyyou’llsave.

IsavedalotofmoneybecauseIknewdesignandfrontendcode.

IntheearlydaysIspentabout$10,000tohaveaRubyonRails

DeveloperbuildthatfirstprototypeandIdidallofthedesignand

HTMLandCSS.Iprobablysavedprobablyhalfthemoneyforthat

firstprototype.Iwouldn’texpecttogetanyinitialprototypedone

forlessthan$20,000unlessyou’reabletodoabunchofthat

workyourself.

Pat: Nowpeoplearehearingthat,$20,000,that’salotofmoney,

Nathan.Isthereanythingonecandobeforetheygettothatpoint?

Youhadmentionedcollectingpreorderstofundsomeofthat.How

doesone…Let’sstartfromthebeginning.IfIhaveasoftwareidea

orsomebodyintheaudiencehasanideaforasolutionthatthey

needhelpwiththattheythinkotherpeopleneedhelpwithwhat

wouldthestepsbetobegintocollectthosepreorders?Iwantto

gohardonyoualittlebit.WhatifIdon’tevenhaveanycontactsof

peoplewhoareinfluencersorIdon’thaveanaudienceofanykind?

Nathan: Yeah,soifyou’rereallystartingfromscratchIwouldsaypretty

stronglyyoushouldn’tstartthisbusinessbecauseifthere’sdifferent

levelsofdifficultyinabusinessIwouldputsoftwareat…Thisis

likealevelfivedifficulty.Iwouldn’ttrytoskiptotheendofthe

videogameandplaythehardestlevelsbeforeyou’veworkedyour

wayup.Learnthosecorebusinessskillsofselling,ofbuildingan

audience,ofbuildinganetworkalongthewayandlearnthemon




10

simplerproductswherethere’slessmoneyatstake.Ifyoufailit’s

notasbigofadealanditjusttakeslesstime.Nowthatsaidifyou

wanttodivestraightintothemoredifficultsideofbusinessIdon’t

blameyou.Entrepreneursarecrazypeopleand…

Pat: Thatweare.

Nathan: Wewouldn’tgetanythingdoneotherwise.WhatIwoulddoisI

wouldgetreallyspecificaboutwhoyou’retargeting,whatproblem

you’resolving.Don’tjustsolveaproblem…Forthecaseof

ConvertKitwe’relikeyeah,we’resolvingemailforpeoplewhoneed

emailsolutions.Thatdoesn’tgiveyouanyonetotargetbecause

it’slikeanyonewhousesemailmarketingisinourtargetmarket.

Thatsucks.Laterwhatwedidiswefocusedonemailmarketingfor

professionalbloggers.Nowasyouhavethatmorenarrowfocus

thenyoucanstarttogetonthephonewithprofessionalbloggers

orteachersordesignersorwhoeveryourtargetmarketis.Startto

askthemdoyouhavethisproblem,whatfrustrationsdoyouhave.

Westartalotofconversationsjustbysayinghey,Iseeyou’reusing

MailChimp,isthereanythingfrustratingyouaboutthat?Ofcourse,

everyonehasfrustrations.IfyouaskpeopleusingConvertKitdo

youhavefrustrations?They’dbelikeyeah,herearemyfrustrations.

Noproductisperfect.That’sagreatstartingpointtoseewhat

problemscanwesolve.EveryoneonlineIfeelwantstosellthrough

content.Theywanttodocontentmarketing,theywanttowritea

blogpostoremailtheirlistandjusthaveallthesesalescomein.

I’mallforthatandI’vedonethatalotandwedoitnowwith

ConvertKit,butintheearlydaysyou’regettingrejectedallthe

time.Ifyou’reonlysellingthroughcontentorsellingthrough

channelsthatscaleyoudon’tknowwhyyou’regettingrejected

becauseeveryone’shitting…They’rejustclickingthebackbutton

orthey’rehittingarchiveonyouremail.They’renotreplyingand

saying,Nathan,Iwouldbuythisexceptandsendyouadetailed

explanation.Whereasifwesitdowninpersonorwegetonthe

phoneandI’msayinghey,Pat,youshouldbuythisthing.Youcan’t

hangupthephoneoryoucan’tgetupandawkwardlyshuffleoutof




11

theroom.

YouhavetoactuallysaywhataboutthisorIdon’tthinkI’mgoing

tobuyitbecauseI’musingthisothertool.You’resociallyobligated

togiverealreasonsandthenthatenablesadialogue.Ifyouend

upnotbuyingIatleastknowexactlywhyyoudidn’tbuy.IfIcan

overcomethoseobjectionsthenwemightgettoasale.With

contentyou’regettingrejectedandyouhavenoideawhy.Iwould

encouragepeoplehuntdownyourtargetmarketandgetreally,

reallyspecific.Thengetthemonthephoneandlearnabouttheir

frustrations,tellthemaboutyoursolution,andthentrytogetthem

togiveyoumoneyanddodirectsales.Everyonesaystheydon’t

scale,butifyoucan’tgetcustomerswhocaresifitscales.You’ve

gottofindchannelsthatwork.

Pat: Iknowthatyoualsometalotofpeopleinpersontotalkabout

thesethingsincludingmyself.Youtookmeouttocoffeeone

dayandwestartedtalkingabouthowIwasonAWeberandthen

IswitchedtoInfusionsoft.Youwerejustaskingquestions,you

weren’tbeingaggressive,youwerejustcuriousandbecausewe

haveafriendshipandwejusthadcoffee,wewerejustchillingand

havingagoodtime.Ithinkyougotalotoutofthatconversation

andthatobviouslyledtomonthslatermeswitchingtoConvertKit.

Thenmecomingonboardasanadvisorandnowpromotingand

sharingitasarecommendedresourceforeverybodyoutthere

whichisawesome.

Iknowthere’salotofConvertKitusersoutthere.Hopefully,you’re

enjoyingthisconversationwithNathanBarry,CEOandFounderof

ConvertKit.WhetheryouuseConvertKitornotIthinkthere’ssome

biglessonshereespeciallywhenitcomestoalotofthesebig

grandsoftware-typebusinessideasthatwehave.Itmaynotbefor

everybodyisthebigthingthatI’mhearing.Ihavealittlebitofafoot

inthesoftwarespacewiththeSmartPodcastPlayerandevenas

smallandasnicheddownasthatproductisit’salotofwork.

Oneoftheotherthingsthatcomestomindwiththiskindofstuff

isthecustomerservicethatisneededinordertokeepitaliveand




12

keepitthriving.I’dloveforyoutotalkalittlebitaboutthat,Nathan,

intermsofwhatwascustomerservicelikeforyou?Wasitalways

justyou,whendidyoustartbuildingateam,andwhatdoesthat

teamlooklikenowforyou?

Nathan: Yeah,sothefirsttwoyearsitwasjustme.Rightaboutthetwo-year

markwestartedbringingonabitmoreofateam,soafull-time

developerandafull-timecustomerserviceandeverythingelserule.

Intheearlydaysit’sallcatchall.

Pat: Reallyquick,whenyouwerejuststartingoutandyousaidit’sjust

youyoudidn’tdothedevelopmentfor…

Nathan: Ihavecontractdevelopers.

Pat: Youhadcontracted,okay.Youworkedwiththemontheside

specificallyfortheprojectitself,butyouwereyouronlyemployeeat

thetime?

Nathan: Yeah,andsoIdidn’tgetpaid.Idon’tknowhowmuchanemployee

Icancountitas,butthatscaledslowly.Iguessreallyquicklyon

thehiringthing.Onefriend,DannyInywhorunsacompanycalled

Mirasee,heusedtodoFirepoleMarketing.

Pat: He’sgreat.

Nathan: HeandIwerehavingbreakfastonetimeandhesaidifyoupayfor

halfofsomeone’stime,soifyouhirethempart-timeyou’rereally

gettingaquarteroftheirattention.EversincehearingthatI’ve

madeapushtotrytohirefull-timepeoplewhoarefocusedentirely

onConvertKitandIthinkthat’spaidoffreallywell.Itrytousefull-

timeemployeesandtakereallygreatcareofthemratherthan

doinganyoffshoredevelopmentoroutsourcingandthat’sjustmy

personalstyle.Thatresultsinabiggerteaminhouse,sorightnow

wehave9,000customersand8full-timepeopleonourcustomer

successteam.

Pat: E-Peoplespecificallyforcustomerservice.




13

Nathan: Yeah,exactly.

Pat: Thatsoundslikealot,butwhat’stheirvolumelike?

Nathan: Yeah,sowedoabout250repliesperday.

Pat: Wow.

Nathan: WehandleallofthatinsideofHelpScout.Wetriedabunchof

differentcustomersupporttoolsandthat’sourfavorite.Ithasthe

bestmetricsandreporting.Theotherthingiswestartedtorollout

phonesupportalittlewhileago.Wedon’thaveaphonenumberthat

youcancall,butwehavelinksinallofouremailsandanappwhere

youcanclicktoscheduleacall.Wehaveallthese20-minuteor

15-minutephonecallslotsandwedoabout100phonecallsaweek.

Thentheotherthingthatwe’retryingoutiscallingeverycustomer

whosignsupandseeinganythingwecandotohelp,howcanwe

answerquestions.Theseareallthingsthatwe’retryingtodojustto

makecustomersmoresuccessful.Reallythemoresuccessfulyou

arethemorelikelyyouaretostickwiththeproduct.ThenIguess

theotherbigpartofitthattwoofthepeopleontheteamspend

alotoftimeonisthecustomermigrations.Ifyou’reonAWeberor

MailChimporInfusionsoftandaboveacertainthreshold,basically

above…Ithinkit’s10,000subscribersrightnowthenwe’lldothe

migrationforyouforfree.

That’sbeenahugetoolbecausepeoplewillsayoh,man,I’dlove

toswitch,butit’stoomuchwork.Wewereabletojustremove

thatobjectionandsaylook,we’lldoitforyouforfreeandthenit’s

prettyhardtosaynotothat.Wenowhave2full-timepeople,that’s

allthey’redoingandthey’reswitching15to20customersaweek

doingallofthatworkforthem,butitpaysoff.Wegetalotofbigger

accounts,moreinfluentialpeoplethatway.

Pat: That’sawesome,Ilovethatandhowyou’redirectlyapplyingthat

tosomeone’sspecificobjectionswhenitcomestowhytheywould

notsubscribe.Ithinkthat’sreallyimportant.Thisissomethingthat




14

ItrytodowitheverythingIdo,everyblogpostIwrite,everybook

thatIwrite,everypodcastepisodeIcomeoutwith.Itrytothinkof,

okay,whatarethehatersgoingtosay?Hatersismaybeastrong

word,butjustwhataretheobjectionsgoingtobeandmakesure

toaddressthose.IpickedthatupinaMalcolmGladwellinterview

oreveninabookwherehespecificallywriteschaptersbasedon

people’sinitialreadingsofthemanuscriptandheaddsthoseextra

chaptersinifpeoplehavesomethingtosayjusttocounterthose

anddirectlyaddressthem.

It’slikeEminemin8Milewhenhe’srappingandheattheendraps

abouthimselfandmakesfunofhimselfbeforetheotherpersoncan

actuallyusethatasammunitionbecausehealreadytalkedabout

it.Anyway,that’sastupidanalogy.Yeah,that’sawesome.Youhad

mentionedagainJanuary2016iswhenthingsstartedtoshiftin

termsofbeingprofitable,reallystartingthathockeystickgrowth.I’d

lovetohaveyouspeakonwhatattributedtothat.Whataresome

ofthethingsthatyouputintoplaceafteryearsofbeingup,years

ofseeingrelativelysmallgrowthandthenboom,thatbiggrowth

finallystartedtohappen.Whatdidyouguysdopurposefullyto

makethathappen?

Nathan: Yeah,sowebasicallyfocusedfull-timeinthebusinessOctober

2014andsoatthetimeweweredoing$1,000amonthinrevenue.

That’swhenIstarteddirectsales,westartedthese...migrations

anddoinganythingwecouldtogetcustomers.Fastforwardto

Marchof2015,so6monthslaterandwehit$5,000amonthin

revenue.EndofJulywhichthat’swhenyousignedupwasJuly

2015wewereat$15,000amonthinrevenueandsothat’sreally…

ThatJune,Julytimeformeiswhenthingsreallystartedtotakeoff

becauseyoucameonandthenanotherreallybigsiteinadifferent

industrycalledWellnessMama.com,theycameonatthesametime.

Gettingtwoinfluencersintwoentirelydifferentspacesmadea

hugedifference.

Thensowekepthavingthislineargrowthandthenwestarteddoing

webinarsandtheseotherbiggerpromotions.Let’ssee,Octoberof

2015you...thatemailmarketingoneandIthinkthatpromotion




15

alonewithyouadded$10,000toourmonthlyrecruitmentrevenue,

sothatwaslike40or50%growthinasinglemonth.Thenwe

starteddoingwebinarsandgettingjustalotmorewordofmouth.

Wehitthatinitialscaleofnowthere’s…Everyonewastalkingabout

us,everycustomerwas,butwhenthere’s100customersthat’snot

thatmuch...Thenonceit’s1,000customersandthey’realltelling

theirfriendsthatmakesabigdifference.

Reallythoseinitialpostsfromyouandalsofromtheteamat

WellnessMama,intwoseparateindustriesjustmadeahuge

impact.Becauseintheearlydaysit’sreallyhardbecausepeople

arelikeyeah,butwhousesyou?You’retryingtosaywehavethis

customerorwe’reusedby…You’relistingallthesepeoplethat

theymayhaveneverofheardof,butthenwewereabletosayoh,

thisbigaccountthatIknowyouheardof,eitheryouorWellness

Mama,thatmadeahugedifferenceinthecredibility.Thenthings

startedtorampupfromthere,soitwasreallyaboutthattimeframe

becauseOctoberwewereat$25,000amonthinrevenueandthen

bytheendofDecemberwehitjustshyof$100,000amonth.That

waslike4Xin2.5monthsorsomethinglikethat.

Pat: Yeah,that’samazing.

Nathan: Itwascrazy.

Pat: IknowbecauseI’moneofthem,theinfluencerswhocameonboard

andreallypushedithard,butIdidthatbecauseit’sagreatproduct

andIkneweverybodywhousesitwouldenjoyitandtheyhave

been.Ithinkit’sreallyimportantthatwhenyou’rebuildinganykind

ofbusinessit’sobviousthattherelationshipsthatyoubuildare

reallygoingtohelppushyourbusinessforward.Youcan’tpossibly

dothisalone.Youcan’thavewordofmouthmarketingforyouif

you’rethemouththat’sonlytalking.

Youneedtoreallygetconnectedwellwithotherpeopleandyou

workedalongtimetoletourrelationshipturnintosomethingthat

eventuallybecamebeneficialforConvertKit.Therewasevenno

askupfront,butit’sjustbecauseyouknewyoubelievedinthe

productandyouknewitwouldhelpmeandthatyouwerethereas




16

aresourceonceIfinallyneededit.Ithinkthat’sreallyimportantfor

anybusinessnomatterwhatyou’reselling.Youneedtoconnect

withtherightpeople,youneedtomakeiteasyforpeopleto

understandthatthisissomethingthattheyneed.Notonlythat,to

makeiteasyforthemtogetaccesstoyoulikeyousaid.Thenthe

webinarsandallthosekindsofthingswork,too,butmorethan

anythinglikeyoumentionedit’stheconnectionsthatyoumake.

Acoupleofmorequestions,firstrelatedtowhatwewerejust

talkingabout.IcameonboardasanadvisorandI’dlovetohave

youshareifyou’rewillingtoorallowedtowhatthetermsarelike

becauseIthinkthere’salotofsoftwarecompaniesoutthereand

othercompaniesindifferentspacesthatcanbenefitfromhaving

advisorscomeonboardinasimilarwaythatIdid.I’mnotjustsaying

thatbecauseIhadthisgreatinfluence.I’msayingthatbecauselike

weweretalkingabout,youneedtogetotherpeopleonboardwho

canoffertheirskillsandoffertheirinfluence.Whatdoesthatlook

likeforConvertKitinreturn?Whatwereyouabletosharewithme?

Whatwerethebenefitsonbothsides?

Nathan: Inatypicaladvisorsetup…Basicallywhatthatisisyou’relooking

forsomeonewhocanhelpmovethecompanyforwardandhave

maybebiweeklyormonthlycalls,makeconnections.Ifyou’retrying

toraisefundingthiswouldbeapersonwhocouldlendtheirname

andtheircontactsintheproject,soreallymakethatfundingrun

altogether.Thewayyoutypicallycompensateanadvisoriswith

equityinthecompany.Thatcanrangeanywherefrom…Themost

commonwouldbeaquarterofapercentallthewayupto…I’ve

heardashighasonefullpercentofthecompany.

Basically,whatyouchoosetheredependsalotonhowfaralong

thecompanyis.Ifyou’reattheideastageitwouldbemoreand

ifyoualreadyhavetractionandgoodprogressthenitwouldbe

less.Wehave2advisors,youandRyanDelk.Pat,whenyoucame

onIthinkwewere…OfficiallyasanadvisorIthinkweweredoing

about$25,000amonthinrevenue,maybe$20,000amonth.Itwas

justbeforethatbigpush.Foreveryonewhowantstoknowhow

muchofConvertKitPatownstheexacttermsofthatare.75%ofthe

company,sothreequartersofapercent.




17

I’mtryingtothink,basically,thatvestsoverfouryearswhichisa

prettystandardterm.Normallythere’dbelikeaone-yearcliffon

that.Whatweultimatelydecidedislikeyouwerebasicallysaying

hey,I’dlovetobeanadvisororI’dloveforsomethingtowork,but

ifnotIdon’tcare,thisismypromotionplan.Oh,andbytheway,it

startsintwoweeks.IwaslikeIdon’tthinkacliffmakessensehere

becausewe’regoingtogetsomeprettyamazingvaluefromthisnot

ayearfromnow,butstartingnextTuesdaybasically.Wedidn’tdoa

cliff,basically,theequitystartedvestingrightaway.

Pat: Yeah,sowhatthatmeans,everybody,isitdoesn’tnecessarilymean

ordoesn’tmeanthatIgetacheckfromConvertKitforthat…

Nathan: Actually,youwillgetacheckthisyear.

Pat: Oh,Iwill?

Nathan: ...dothat.

Pat: Yeah,Ididn’tknowthat.

Nathan: ...getacheck.

Pat: Oh,sweet.

Nathan: Everyonegetstofindthisoutatthesametime.Basically,theway

wehaveConvertKitstructuredisalittledifferentfromastandard

startup.Thewaywehaveitstructuredisthatalloftheprofits…

Becausewe’renotinittotrytobuildandflipacompany,we’renot

tryingtogetanexitasquicklyaspossible,sowe’retryingtobuilda

profitablecompanythatpaysoutdividendcheckstoitsowners.The

waywe’resetupasanLLCtheprofitsflowthroughtotheowners

andsotherewillbeacheckthatcomesoutattheendoftheyear

foryourpercentageoftheprofits.

Pat: Sweet,Ididn’tknowthat.Igottoreaduponthosetermsalittlebit

better.No,that’sawesome.Iremembermyattorneymentioning

somethingaboutthat,butitwassomethingthatwasn’texpected.

Therearemanymorebenefitstobeinganadvisorthanjustthe




18

percentageofthecompany.Thereissomepartownershipthere.I

dofeelIhaveabitofthecompany.Eventhoughit’safractionofa

percentitdoesfeelIhavesomeownershiptherewhichallowsme

toinmyheadandquitehonestlyshareitwiththeworldinaway

that’smorehonestandmoreauthenticIbelieve.I’mmorebehind

it,ifyouwill,sothat’sanotherreasonwhyyoumightwanttohave

advisorscomeonboardandactuallyshareapieceofthecompany

withthem.Eventhoughit’sasmallpieceitworksoutreallywellfor

everybodyIthink.

BeyondthatbecauseIhavedirectaccesstoNathanandbecause

I’mactuallyusingthisproductaswellI’mabletoreachouttohim

ifanythinghappensorifIhearanythingonthefrontlines.Ithink

that’soneofmysuperpowersinthespaceisIgettoheardirectly

frompeoplewhoareusingtheseproductsandwhatpeopleare

frustratedwith.Ifit’ssomethingthey’refrustratedwiththatparticular

softwareinparticularIcangodirectlytoNathanandgetthings

movingquitequickerwhichisgreat.

That’salsoabenefitformebecauseIuseit,too,plusI’mableto

sharemyownideasforfeaturesandthingslikethat.Icanrunthose

ideasoffmyaudienceandthenifIhearthatthere’soneparticular

thingthat’sveryneededIcangotoNathanoroneofthedevelopers

orsomethingandwecangetsomethingcreatedwhichisawesome.

Theymovealittlebitfasteronthatbecausemysaycomeswitha

littlebitmoreweightIwouldsayifthatmakessense,Nathan.

ThisissimilartohowIhaveitsetupwithothercompaniesthatI’m

anadvisorforlikeLeadpagesandSamCart.ReallyI’mnotinitfor

themoney,I’minitfortheconnectionsandtheabilitytohavemy

namenexttothecompany.Itmeansalotformybusinessandmy

authenticityandsoformeasanadvisorthatalsocomeswithit,

too.TheotherthingthatIwanttomentionisthatbecauseIhave

afractionofapercentofthecompanythatmeansthatifitwereto

actuallyexitatonepointIwouldbeincludedinthataswell.With

the440,000that’sbeingmadeeverysinglemonthI’mnotmaking

$3,000everymonthbecauseofthat,butifitweretoexitat…

multipliersofthatIwouldhaveasignificantincomecomingfromthat.




19

Nathan: Agoodchunk.

Pat: Agoodchunk,yeah.

Nathan: Yeah,somyjobasCEOreallyistobuildacompanythat’snotworth

$5millionor$10million,butmyjobistobuildacompanythat’s

worth$100millionormore.Thenwhenyoustarttolookatitin

thosetermsthenthelistenerswouldgooh,okay,nowIseehow

thismathchecksout.

Pat: Yeah,yeah.

Nathan: TheotherthingtomentionandthisissomethingthatIthinkis…

Youhavethis…IknowyouhavethesamesetupwithLeadpages

andIassumewithSamCartbecauseIthinkthisisareallygreatway

togoisthecombinationofequityandaffiliatecommissions.The

reasonthatthat’ssoawesomeisthatyougetrewardedintheshort-

terminthatpeoplecanlookatyourincomereports,convert...

somewherebetween10and$12,000amonth.Likeintheearlydays

you’retakingabigchanceandyou’relendingyournameandyour

reputationandputtingitbehindthisproductthatyes,you’veuseda

lot,butalotcangowronginstartups.

Forthatlong-term...you’regettingpaidinequityandfortheshort-

termyou’regettingpaidasanaffiliate.IfitwasoneortheotherI

don’tthinkitwould…Idon’tknowifthe...wouldbealignedas

well.Ithinkbecausethecombinationoftheaffiliaterevenueand

theadvisorsharesitjustmakesitareallygoodfitforeveryone.It

givesyoumoreofanincentivetotakeachanceonsomeofthese

upandcomingcompaniesaswellasitgivesthecompanyawayto

compensateyou.Ifeeleveryone’sincentivesareperfectlyaligned

inthatcase.

Pat: Yeah,it’scool.It’sbeenalotfunactuallyandI’mquite…Ijust

feelveryblessedtobeapartofthisgrowingcompanyandIjust

wanttosaycongrats,Nathan,Iknowit’scomealongway.Ihope

everybodylisteningtothisknowsthatit’snotjustsomethingyou

couldsetupandthentomorrowyou’regoingtohavethisamazing

companywithatonofsubscribers.Evenifyoudidhowwouldyou




20

beabletohandlethat?There’salotofthingsthatcomeintoplay

withteambuildingandgettingeverythingintoplace,customer

serviceespeciallyandit’salong-termgame.IknowNathan’s

runningamarathonhereandwe’rejustatthestartwhichisreally

cool,soI’mexcitedtoseewhereitgoes.

ThelastthingIwanttotalkabout,Nathan,ifyouhaveamoment

areyourgrowingpains.RightnowandIknowthisissomething

thateverycompanygoesthrough,butIknoweverycompany’s

differentaswell.Whataresomeofthegrowingpainsthatyouare

experiencingrightnowwithyourbusiness?Ithinkit’dbeprettycool

tohearthateventhoughthenumbersaregreatthattherearestill

thingsthatcouldbeimprovedonandfiguredout.

Nathan: OnethingasyouweretalkingthatIrememberedisIthinklast

fall,soprobablyaboutayearagoweweretalking…Iaskedthis

question,whendoyouthinkthisisgoingtobearealbusinessand

yousaid…Ithinkthenumberwas$50,000amonth.Onceithit

$50,000amonththenitfeelslikeit’sgoingtobearealbusiness.I

thinkit’sfuntojustrememberthoseconversationsandremember

whenthatwasthebiggoal.

Growingpains,therearesomany.Iexpectedserverissuesandthat

kindofthingasaresultofhavingafast-growingcompany.There

areplentyofmonthsinthecompanythatwe’vegrown20,30%

eachmonthandthat’sgoingtocauseissues.We’vegonefromin

theperiodofayearsendingamillionemailsamonthtosending

130millionemailsamonth.Thathasalotofserverissuesandso

we’veputalotofworkintothat.Wehadsomedowntimeoverthe

summer.WhatIdidn’texpectwasallthemaliciousbehavior.Once

webecameasuccessfulcompanyandweweregettingthisgreat

deliverability,weactuallyhadalotofpeoplespecificallytryingto

attackConvertKitandbypasstheanti-spammeasures.Actually,we

haddenialserviceattacksagainstConvertKit.Ijustdidn’texpect

thatlevelofmaliciousbehavior.

AsanexampleearlierthissummerIwasbrowsingorIheardabout

thisfromacustomerandthentheytoldmehey,goonUpwork

andsearchConvertKit.I’mlike,okay.Igoandlookandthere’sall




21

thesepostingsandthey’rethingslikehey,ConvertKithasreally

gooddeliverability,canyoureverseengineerit.I’mlike,okay,cool,

someonewantstolearnhowwedowhatwedo,whatever.Thenext

postaweeklater,ConvertKithasreallygooddeliverability,canyou

hacktheiranti-spammeasures,sotheystopautomaticallybanning

ouraccountbecausethisisobviouslyaspammer.Thenalittlewhile

laterisConvertKit’sanemailmarketingserviceforprofessional

bloggers.Ifyou’reabloggersignupandthengetyouraccount

approvedandthenwe’llbuyyouraccountfromyoufor$100.

Pat: Weird.

Nathan: AllthiskindofstuffkeepsgoingonandonandI’mjustlikeoh,man.

Thesepeopleatthesametimeareliketryingtohackthesystem

andscrewwitheverything.Idon’tknow,Ijustdidn’tknowtoexpect

thatgoinginandsoIspentagood,Idon’tknow,twoorthree

monthsandacouplehundredthousanddollarsfightingoffallof

thatcrap.Idon’tknow,it’sjustthecostofdoingbusiness,butthat

mademysummerlessenjoyable.

Pat: Yeah,thatsucksandI’vehadthathappentome,too.I’vehada

DDoSattackbackinMarchof2013.Itbroughtmysite,SPI,and

manyothersitesthatIhadonthesameserverwhichwas,firstof

all,myownmistaketohavethatbethecase,butIwasdownfora

weekandahalf,lostabout15to20Kinprojectedrevenuesatthat

point.Itwasjustbad.Therearebadpeopleouttheredoingbad

things,soIjustknowthatthatstuffisgoingtopotentiallyhappen

and,thankfully,IhadmyemaillistandmypodcastandmyYouTube

channeltostillbeabletocommunicatewithmyaudienceandkeep

themuptodate.Anyway,arethereanythingsgoingonintermsof

growth.Whatareyouguysdoingforgrowthrightnowtocontinue

togetthewordoutthereorisitatapointnowwhereit’stakingoff

onitsown?

Nathan: Tosomeextentit’stakingoffonitsown,buttomaintainthelevels

ofgrowththatwewantittakesalotofwork.Themainchannels

forusandwe’retryingtonotpursuenewthingsallthetime.We’re

tryingtoreallyanalyzewhat’sworkinganddoubledownonthat.

Abigthingforthelasttwoyearsformeisjustfocus.Ourchannels




22

rightnowarewedoalotofdirectsalesstill.We’veswitchedthat,so

it’snotasmuchoutboundwherewe’reidentifyingprospectsand.

..onthem,sowestilldosomeofthat.It’smoreinboundworknow

inourmarketingsite.It’stryingtogetpeopletorequestademoand

havethoseconversations.

There’sthatandthenthere’saffiliatesandwehaveabout2,000

affiliates,butwithaffiliatesthere’ssomething…Ifirstlearnedthis

termfromChrisGuillebeauyearsago.Hecalleditthe98/2ruleof

affiliatesandthat’slike80/20,butinsteadofthatit’sthatonly2%

ofyouraffiliateswilleversellanythingever.Reallyit’sjustapower

lawdistributionontheeffectivenessofaffiliates.It’snotgoingto

beequalacrossallofthem.We’veputalotofworkintohelping

ouraffiliatestowritereviews,hostwebinars,andthatkindofthing

becausepeopledon’tjustsignupfortheaffiliateprogramandthen

magicallystartmakingsales.Ittakesalotof…Youactuallyhaveto

getthatcontentoutthere.

ThosearethebigchannelsandIguessImentionedwebinars.We

doabout25partnerwebinarseverymonth.Thatwouldbewith

everyonerangingfromDarrenRowsefromProBloggertoPat,you

stillholdtherecordforourlargesteverwebinars.Ijustdidsome

withJonMorrow,somewithJohnLeeDumas,butbasicallywe

getinfrontofadifferentaudience.Wepusheverysingledayfora

webinar.Thosecanbringinanywherefrom…Asmallwebinarmight

bringin10customers.We’rethrilledwiththatbecausewejustgotto

doabulk…likeamasssalescall.Insteadofone-on-oneitwas1to

10or1to50.Thenabigwebinarfromuswouldbringinanywhere

from100tomaybe400customers.

Pat: That’sawesome,amazing.

Nathan: Wedidthemallthetime.

Pat: Iloveit.Iknowthat’showalotofothercompanieshavegrown,

Leadpagesespecially.Theywentonabig,hugewebinarkickand

they’restilldoingthat,sothat’sawesome.Nathan,there’sbeena

lotofgreatinformation,veryinspiring.Itmakesmethinkofwhat’s

possibleforaSmartPodcastPlayerorintherealmofsoftwarenow




23

thatIhavedabbledinit.

Also,Ithinkit’sagreateye-openerforpeopleonwhatreally

happenswiththiskindofbusiness.Thatalotofpeopleseethe

successandtheyseeyournumbersonBaremetricsandthey’relike

yeah,Icandothat,too.MaybeyoucanandIhopeyoudo,butit’s

notgoingtobeeasy,that’sforsure.Ilovehowyoualwaysgoback

tolet’sjustsolvepeople’sproblemsfirstandtalktothecustomer

andthat’sreallywhereitallstarts.

Ifyou’rethinkingaboutgettingintoanybusiness…Asyoumight

knowwhenyoureadWillItFlyorifyou’retakingmySmartfrom

Scratchcourseasoneofthefoundingstudentsthatcoursewillbe

launchedlaternextyearorearlynextyear.It’sallabouttalkingto

peopleandgettinginformationfromthem.Thatwayyoucanbuild

thebestthingthatyoucanforthemtohelpthemintheeasiestway

possible.Nathan,thankyousomuchforcomingon,yourtimetoday

especiallyafteryourrecenttriptoThailand.Ijustwanttothankyou

againforbuildinganawesomecompanyandsharingyourwisdom

asyoualwaysdo.

Nathan: Yeah,thanksforhavingmeandthanksforbeingahugepartofall

thingsConvertKit.

Pat: Hey,man,mypleasure.Allright,Ihopeyouenjoyedthatepisode

withNathanBarry,againCEOandFounderofConvertKit,a

companythatI’manadvisorforandthatIdearlylove.Icannot

waittoseewheretheygonext.Ifyouwanttocheckhimout

usemyaffiliatelink,SmartPassiveIncome.com/ConvertKit.That’ll

getyouhookeduptherenomatterwhatlevelyou’reateven

ifyou’rejuststartingout.WhatIloveaboutthemisthatthey’re

supereasytouse.They’renotoverwhelmingandthat’swhyI

switchedover,soyoucancheckthemout.Againonemoretime,

SmartPassiveIncome.com/ConvertKit.

Nathan,thankyouagainforcomingonandsharingyourwisdom.

Bestofluck.Iknowwe’llgetthroughallthosegrowingpainsand

we’llbedoingthattogether.Ican’twaittoseewhatthenumbers

arelike.Ifyouwanttocheckouttheshownotesandtheresources

inthelinksincludingalinktotheirBaremetricsaccountwhich




24

showsyouexactlyhowmuchmoneythey’remakingandwhattheir

monthlyrevenuerateisandmonthlyrecurringrevenuenumbers

areandallthosethings,Ilovethatbecauseit’ssotransparent,you

cancheckthatoutandotherlinksatSmartPassiveIncome.com/

Session244.

ThenfinallyI’dliketothanktoday’ssponsorwhichis99designs.

com,anawesomesiteyoucanusetogetanysortofwebdesign

workdonethatyouneed.Forexample,ifyouneedalogodoneyou

cangoto99designs.com.Ifyouneedawebpagedoneoralanding

pageoranentiresuiteofstationaryforwhateverbrandyouhave,

forat-shirt,forafoodtruckwrap.Anythingyouwantdesigned

youcanhaveitdone.It’sreallycoolbecauseyou’regoingtoget

hundredsofdesignsfromallaroundtheworld.Thereareliterally

hundredsofthousandsofdesignersfromallaroundtheworld

waitingtoseeiftheywanttoworkonyourproject.

Yougettopickfromthebestsubmissionswhichisreallycool,sort

oflikeacontestandyougettopickyourfavoriteone.Youcould

haveyourfriendsandfamilyvoteontheirfavoriteorevenyour

audiencevote.It’sreallycool.I’vejustdoneafewrecentlyaswell

andIthinkforthosewhoarejuststartingoutwhoarebootstrapping

theirbusinessesandcan’taffordadesignertohireontheirteam

thisisthenextbestsolution.Youcancheckthemoutat99designs.

com/SPI.Againthat’s99designs.com/SPIandyou’llgetalittlebitof

akickbackora$99creditthatyoucanputtowardyournextdesign

project,socheckthemout.

Thankssomuch.IappreciateyouandIlookforwardtoserving

youinthenextepisodeoftheSmartPassiveIncomePodcast

wherewe’regoingtobeinterviewinganotherhighlysuccessful

entrepreneur,onethatyoumayhavenothaveheardofbefore,but

he’sdoinggreatthingsandhe’sgotsomereallyinterestingstories

toshare.Ican’twaittosharethatwithyou.Untilthenkeepmoving

theneedle,keepworkingononethingatatime.You’vegotthis

andlet’sfinishofftheyearstrong.Thankssomuch,Iappreciate

you.Seeyouinthenextone.

Announcer: ThanksforlisteningtotheSmartPassiveIncomePodcastatwww.

SmartPassiveIncome.com.




25

ReSouRceS: ConvertKit

Baremetrics

HelpScout

SpoNSoRS: 99Designs




https://finconexpo.com

https://baremetrics.com

https://www.helpscout.net

http://99designs.com/spi


Documents

SPI 244 Bootstrapping a StartUp with Nathan Barry from ConvertKit€¦ · companies do this. I know Buffer app does it and ConvertKit, too, where you can see their monthly recurring