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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63012)by ground » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:49 pm

If this then that but if that then this. When there is this there is that. When this has ceasedthen that disappears as well.

You say it.

Dechen Norbu wrote:

If death is annihilation, it really doesn't matter, because there will be nofurther "being born".

TMingyur wrote:Be that as it may ... from within the context of the teachings volitionalformations manifesting of the kind "there is re‐birth" or "there is norebirth" will lead to further being born.

However there is a difference when there is fear or aversion or beingworried about when it happens. This was the meaning intended with theterm "embrace".

All this fancy discursive fabrications about "rebirth" won't help ... what isof help however is the eightfold path which entails cessation ofspeculations and equanimous and/or joyful letting go.

Kind regards

Dechen Norbu wrote:The Noble Eightfold Path starts and ends with Right View.

Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? Inone of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, rightspeech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of rightaction, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one ofright effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63017)by Kyosan » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:57 pm

There are many Christians like that. They profess their faith but don't follow the words ofJesus and think that they just need to believe and they will be saved. But I know someChristians who are really open minded, compassionate and care about others. There aremystic traditions in Christianity that, like Buddhism, focus on things like non‐duality andcompassion. And, I think that Christian theology is not as simplistic as the beliefs of thecommon folks. You see the same thing in Buddhism. Many Buddhists go to a temple and prayand ask Quan Yin (Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva) for things and think of him as a goddess. Dothey comprehend the Dharma? Probably most of them don't comprehend it very much.

I agree that faith is needed. I like the way you put it "faith filtered by reason". Or maybe Iwould call it "faith filtered by insight".Totaly blind faith is not a good thing. In fact, one

concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one ofright knowledge, right release comes into being.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html)

edearl wrote:

I am studying the 37 factors of enlightenment and Bodhipakkhiyādhammā(whew‐‐a mouth full) and find almost all of it reasonable and acceptable. Atthe moment I have only one issue, faith. That's because my family, momespecially, said, "Trust me. Have faith in Christianity," but my family andchurch are bigoted, intolerant, vindictive, and have other incredible beliefs.That experience has made me mistrust anyone who states a belief and expectsme believe it because of trust. In my opinion, blind faith is an ugly thingbecause an otherwise good person can be led to do bad things. On the otherhand, one cannot live their lives without faith. Math and logic simply cannotscientifically prove everything needed to live ones life. Faith filtered by reasonis OK and needed. Needless to say, I was very impressed that the Buddha saiddon't blindly trust me, think about my philosophy and if it makes sense, followme. That was the start of my epiphany, and it continues as I learn more. It is asif the Buddha read my mind, figured out many things I had been unable to workout, and now is telling me the things I want to know.

I felt like shouting EPIPHANY, meaning "a sudden, intuitive perception of orinsight into the reality or essential meaning of something," (Dictionary.com)

I looked up the definition, and found that it is also a Christian festival‐‐notwhat I meant.





http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html



important thing I learned from Buddhism (mainly from the "Sutra of Innummerable Meanings")is that all beings interpret things differently. So the Buddhist dharma, or possibly even theteachings of another religion, is interpreted differently by different beings. Each being tendsto think that their interpretation is what the teaching really is. But when we communicate,we are not communicating words, we are communicating meanings. So what meaning iscorrect, the meaning that I get or the meaning that someone else gets? So when we put faithin some words ,we are really putting faith in our interpretation of the words. Ourinterpretation of the words may not be the same as the intended meaning of the words. Forthat reason we must use our wisdom to decipher what the intended meaning really is. Manypeople, without knowing this, see or hear the words and think they understand and latch onto that.

If you otherwise like Buddhism and see value in it please don't let the thing aboutreincarnation, rebirth or whatever it's called, discourage you. And don't let people tell youwhat you must believe. Through your own wisdom you must decide what you believe. You canput faith in a teacher who you trust but even blind faith in a teacher isn't a good thing. TheBuddha, when he was practicing the way, had walked away from several teachers. He usedhis own wisdom to decide what to believe and what not to believe.

The Buddhas words have resonated with me also. I like the fact that he encourages us to lookdeeply into things and understand them ourselves. It looks to me like you will probablybecome/stay a Buddhist. If so, I think you will be a great Buddhist.

Did you know that Epiphany is also the name of a Linux based web browser. Silly me, Ithought that a fellow geek was telling me what web browser he uses.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63025)by edearl » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:41 pm

I am not a quick study and doubt that I would become a great Buddhist, even if I were young.I will remain Buddhist because Buddhist beliefs and mine have much in common.

Yes, but I use Firefox.

Kyosan wrote:It looks to me like you will probably become/stay a Buddhist. If so, I think youwill be a great Buddhist.

Kyosan wrote:Did you know that Epiphany is also the name of a Linux based web browser.Silly me, I thought that a fellow geek was telling me what web browser he uses.








Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63026)by edearl » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:44 pm


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63067)by Acchantika » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:00 am

edearl wrote:

meant to edit, sorry.

I know all Christians are not as fundamentalist as my family, and that there aregood Christians.

I am not a quick study and doubt that I would become a great Buddhist, even if Iwere young. I will remain Buddhist because Buddhist beliefs and mine havemuch in common.

Yes, but I use Firefox.

Kyosan wrote:It looks to me like you will probably become/stay a Buddhist. If so, Ithink you will be a great Buddhist.

Kyosan wrote:Did you know that Epiphany is also the name of a Linux based webbrowser. Silly me, I thought that a fellow geek was telling me what webbrowser he uses.

deepbluehum wrote:This quip, while sounding spiritual, completely misses the mark. I haven't saidone should behave compassionately for fear of punishment, nor have I said notto question beliefs for fear of what they might entail. You all are conditionedby the Church. I don't have the problem. The teaching on karma is very simpleand verifiable. Good deeds result in pleasure and a higher rebirth; bad deedsresult in pain and a lower rebirth. The path provides the methods to test these.You do not have a sound working basis to test these until the methods aretaught to you. Until then, you will have to go on faith that the methods will dothe job.











This quip, while sounding spiritual, completely misses the mark. I haven't said one shouldbehave righteously for fear of punishment, nor have I said not to question beliefs for fear ofwhat they might entail. You all are conditioned by the Indians. I don't have the problem. Theteaching on sin is very simple and verifiable. Good deeds result in pleasure and entry intoheaven; bad deeds result in pain and entry into hell. The path provides the methods to testthese. You do not have a sound working basis to test these until the methods are taught toyou. Until then, you will have to go on faith that the methods will do the job.

Again you are just waxing poetic to get fools to chime in; again, completely off the mark. Theabove cited gospel states that a beginner has to trust Jesus first, then later, the answersbecome clear. The point is that you never just believe their is heaven or a soul, just becauseJesus said so. But you also don't disbelieve it and distrust Jesus. You keep an open mind, "thisis the teaching of the Lamb of God," and you proceed along the path step by step slowlyverifying the trust behind the Lord's words.

Seriously, you Easterners need to drop the Iron Age aspirations or you will be left in the dust.This is the end times. The Good News will not be here for long.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63068)by deepbluehum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:19 am

Sarcasm. I pray you overcome that hate within.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63069)by deepbluehum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:23 am

Your hatred of the Church is your issue. Other religions have many good merits.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63071)by coldmountain » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:52 am

Again you are just waxing poetic to get fools to chime in; again, completely offthe mark. The above‐cited sutta states that a beginner has to trust the Buddhafirst, then later, the answers become clear. The point is that you never justbelieve their is karma or rebirth, just because the Buddha said so. But you alsodon't disbelieve it and distrust the Buddha. You keep an open mind, "this is theteaching of the Omniscient one," and you proceed along the path step by stepslowly verifying the trust behind the Master's words.

Seriously, you Westerners need to drop the New Age Guru aspirations or you willbe left in the dust. This is the degenerate age. Dharma will not be here forlong.















I think there's more than sarcasm here. If there's one thing in common that devotees of anyreligion tend to have is that they take their own narrative at face value. If there's one thingthat Westerners tend to have in common is an acute awareness that every single religionclaims this. Pluralism, not the church, is the problem. To someone aware of competingclaims, any claim based solely on an appeal to religious authority all sounds exactly the same.I'm not sure you realize just how much so. At this level, Buddha and Jesus, the church and thesangha, become one and the same voice.

I am getting a distinct impression that Easterners, or 'native Buddhists' if I can use such aterm, don't understand Western culture in the slightest, else they'd be more conscientious intheir use of skillful means. Pre‐modern Christians wouldn't understand Western culture in theslightest either, because as I said, pluralism is the issue.

Much like the last fellow who said I was merely 'clinging to my disbelief in rebirth'. Hardly. Ifanything I'm looking for good reasons to trust in the Dharma, but one thing many people don'tseem to appreciate is that people of other cultures come from drastically differentconditions. Collectively we are no more inclined to be convinced of karma and rebirth thanyou are to walk down the aisle of a church and get saved by the blood of Jesus. I amdisappointed by the lack of tact and understanding on these forums; the mindset is oftenidentical to that of the church ‐‐ but not merely the church ‐‐ but any premodern, pre‐pluralistic religious disposition. The church is often used as an example merely because it isthe dominant religion of the West, but any example could suffice.

I am most amazed that people would rather turn others away from the Dharma than have arational and tactful discussion on things. This can only do harm, and therefore can onlyaccumulate bad karma. Perhaps if it's just one individual one could justifiably dismiss them asespecially stupid or foolish, but this is an entire culture of people. For each person zealouslydismissed, doubtless hundreds or thousands get the message that Buddhism is no differentthan any other religion: it demands credulous assent to apparently arbitrary beliefs. My pointhere is that if one is going to engage someone fruitfully, one has to understand where theyare coming from and appreciate that. If this can't be done, then both parties are wastingtheir time. An unwillingness to meet someone in the middle and work from their ownpresuppositions bespeaks either a lack of sympathy or intellectual laziness.

Peace.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63072)by Acchantika » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:54 am

I apologise if I came off as sarcastic. I felt I was misintepreted when "waxing poetic" so I trieda different approach. I don't hate other religions.

My point was that every religion expounds the same rhetoric that is being repeated here,

deepbluehum wrote:Sarcasm. I pray you overcome that hate within.

Your hatred of the Church is your issue. Other religions have many good merits.







that once one is open to an idea they can verify it in their own experience. I think that oftenpeople actually just intepret their experience according to a prior belief, which isreinforcement, not verification. Encouraging this means that people end up both adhering toconcepts and reifying meditative experience. These are both antithetical to practice,whether you are a beginner or not. I don't think this is what Buddha meant by testing theideas, and this "testibility" is so crucial that I think it is a great mistake to conflate it with thesame dogmatic rhetoric in other systems. It seems to me that he understood clearly that trueverification is impossible, but falsification isn't. This is very important, I believe. I think thatintepreting karma to be a mere Universal reward system is vastly underestimating itsmeaning, and will turn us all into compassi‐o‐bots.

But I appreciate your praying for me. I need all the help I can get.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63082)by Kyosan » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:57 am

I think that is the main thing. And if we do try to help others by speaking to them, we need tomeet them where they are at; what we say has to be reasonable to them. It's about helpingthem use their wisdom to decide, not about imposing our views on them.

Could it be that the Dalai Lama is a New Ager? Naw, perish the thought. Sorry, I couldn'tresist.

I think this shows that the Dalai Lama doesn't believe that metaphysical beliefs areimportant, since different religions have different metaphysics.

from the Dalai Lama"To study Buddhism and then use it as a weapon in order to criticize others'theories or ideologies is wrong. The very purpose of religion is to controlyourself, not to criticize others. Rather, we must criticize ourselves. How mucham I doing about my anger? About my attachment, about my hatred, about mypride, my jealousy? These are the things which we must check in daily life withthe knowledge of the Buddhist teachings.""A Talk to Western Buddhists" p. 87

from the Dalai Lama"I don't want to convert people to Buddhism — all major religions, whenunderstood properly, have the same potential for good."

"Fundamentalism is terrifying because it is based purely on emotion, ratherthan intelligence. It prevents followers from thinking as individuals and aboutthe good of the world."

Daily Telegraph interview (2006)







I think he is saying that thinking of the "good of the world" (having compassion for all sentientbeings) and thinking as individuals is more important than strict adherence to religiousdoctrine. And he is saying that if we are fundamentalists (are attached to the doctrine) thatcan impede us spiritually.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63093)by Sherab Dorje » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:43 am

The Dalai Lama has pointed out the difference between spirituality and religiosity MANYtimes.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63095)by Thug4lyfe » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:13 am

Hmmm, maybe it's just a case of westerners, Easterners mistaken eachother's weakness asstrength.

Typical Eastern Obstruction:Greed from hoping to gain merit by practicing and making offeringsSuperficial cultivation just to appear pure to please the Monastics

Typical Western Obstruction:Mis‐interpret the teaching to suit one's habitsAttachment to Christianity, in turn gets attached to philsophical speculations, science andathiesm.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63099)by edearl » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:41 am

I do not understand. Are you saying that Christians are attached to science and atheismvia philosophy?

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Food_Eatah wrote:Attachment to Christianity, in turn gets attached to philsophical speculations,science and athiesm.
















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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63105)by Dechen Norbu » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:28 pm

Indeed. It's very important for someone to start his path in the right way, making contact in ameaningful fashion. This varies a lot. For some, if their first contact are the most exotic partsto our culture, it's unlikely they stick around to see the rest. However, this doesn't mean wedeem less important this or that teaching, or worse, we try to shape Dharma so that it suitstheir mundane views. A good teacher will know his student and how to help him withoutcorrupting the teachings.

It shows none of that. The Dalai Lama stresses teachings as rebirth and karma as any othergood teacher. I have plenty of his books where this is blatantly clear. You can't pick asentence directed to the general public and make of it what it isn't to suit your purposes. TheDalai Lama also says that there comes a point where one must choose.

That all religions may be important is a different matter all together. Each religion has itsvalue. You can be a good Christian and do a lot of good for others. You can be an atheist anddo the same. This doesn't imply that the Dalai Lama considers eternalism or nihilismwholesome views. It means that even under such views, one can still do a lot for others andhimself. They just aren't fit if your aim is enlightenment.

Bending or warping the Dharma so it can be compatible with competing metaphysics doesnothing for its value. It impoverishes the teachings. People are not forced to becomeBuddhists or to accept the teachings. I find dishonest and misleading if we twist the teachingsto attract someone. People have the right to know what they are dealing with. If they decideto stick around and investigate, fantastic. If they don't, it's their right. What we don't have isthe right to corrupt the Buddhadharma so that it fits everyone. Some people will neverbecome Buddhists. They can have their convictions, some incompatible with Buddhism, and

Kyosan wrote:I think that is the main thing. And if we do try to help others by speaking tothem, we need to meet them where they are at; what we say has to bereasonable to them. It's about helping them use their wisdom to decide, notabout imposing our views on them.

Could it be that the Dalai Lama is a New Ager? Naw, perish the thought. Sorry, I

couldn't resist.

I think this shows that the Dalai Lama doesn't believe that metaphysical beliefsare important, since different religions have different metaphysics.

I think he is saying that thinking of the "good of the world" (having compassionfor all sentient beings) and thinking as individuals is more important than strictadherence to religious doctrine. And he is saying that if we are fundamentalists(are attached to the doctrine) that can impede us spiritually.







still be great human beings. If we lie to them by saying "oh this is not important, so you cansimply disregard it", forgetting that the Buddha or the sages usually don't spend time in idlechatter, we are not being honest with them. These teachings are there and there are meansto check them. First we build some intellectual confidence through study and after that wepractice to gain insight directly. Doubt is not solved by cultivating it. It's by the cultivation ofstudy and practice that we deal with our legitimate doubts, not pretending that someteachings don't matter. Were that the case, probably the Buddha wouldn't have mentionedthem.

Best wishes.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63115)by deepbluehum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:15 pm

I agree that testability would great, but their are limits to what one can gather in terms ofdata. For example, there is no test that can falsify rebirth. The best we can hope for are twothings: 1) anecdotal evidence and 2) one must enter the path up to the fourth jhana and averone's mind toward past lives and see what happens. The second would only be one's own

Acchantika wrote:

I apologise if I came off as sarcastic. I felt I was misintepreted when "waxingpoetic" so I tried a different approach. I don't hate other religions.

My point was that every religion expounds the same rhetoric that is beingrepeated here, that once one is open to an idea they can verify it in their ownexperience. I think that often people actually just intepret their experienceaccording to a prior belief, which is reinforcement, not verification.Encouraging this means that people end up both adhering to concepts andreifying meditative experience. These are both antithetical to practice,whether you are a beginner or not. I don't think this is what Buddha meant bytesting the ideas, and this "testibility" is so crucial that I think it is a greatmistake to conflate it with the same dogmatic rhetoric in other systems. Itseems to me that he understood clearly that true verification is impossible, butfalsification isn't. This is very important, I believe. I think that intepretingkarma to be a mere Universal reward system is vastly underestimating itsmeaning, and will turn us all into compassi‐o‐bots.

But I appreciate your praying for me. I need all the help I can get.

deepbluehum wrote:Sarcasm. I pray you overcome that hate within.

Your hatred of the Church is your issue. Other religions have many goodmerits.







subjective experience. The same applies to karma. We can look at examples like Ghaddhafiand apply the lives by the gun dies by the gun adage. Then, we can "test" in our ownexperience whether what the Buddha said is true, that good deeds result in pleasantcondition and bad deeds result in painful condition. As to compassi‐o‐bots, you are missing acrucial element, the dharmakaya. This also has absolutely nothing to do with science, andcannot be tested, because it is simply awareness's own subjective experience, and bydefinition, is immeasurable. Make no mistake about it, we are as Buddhists trying to gainimmeasurable pleasure gained from the unshakable karma of meditative absorption. A botcould never experience this, because there is no combination of zeros and ones that couldpossibly account for this experience. As a strict skeptic you are in danger of remaining athought‐o‐bot. You are not allowing yourself the license to relax, unwind and sink into thedeep vast pool of subjective pleasure that comes from realization of the dharmakaya.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63128)by edearl » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:39 pm

Baptist preacher William Miller predicted the Second Advent of Jesus Christ would occurbefore March 21, 1844. When this date he chose a new date of April 18, 1844. That datepassed and a follower of Miller, Samuel S. Snow, predicted October 22, 1844.

Anabaptists of the early sixteenth century believed that the Millennium would occur in 1533.

Assemblies of God Church predicted Armageddon no later than 1934 or 1935.

Charismatic Pastor Chuck Smith predicted anytime before 1981.

Russian Mennonite minister Claas Epp, Jr. predicted that Christ would return on March 8,1889, and, when that date passed uneventfully, 1891.

Thomas Brightman a Presbyterian predicted the end of the world between 1650 and 1695.

Christopher Love a strong Presbyterian predicted that Babylon would fall in 1758‐‐God's angeragainst the wicked would be demonstrated in 1759‐‐there would be earthquakes all over theworld 1763.

There have been many more similar predictions.

The earth has been around a few billion years and I predict it will be here a few billion more.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63129)by Josef » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:49 pm

Acchantika wrote:Seriously, you Easterners need to drop the Iron Age aspirations or you will beleft in the dust. This is the end times. The Good News will not be here for long.











Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63129)by Josef » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:49 pm

This is a major problem in my opinion and I dont think its just a "Western" problem.It is definitely most prevalent here though. This thread and all the other rebirth threadsshow bountiful evidence of Westerners who want to call themselves Buddhists but want theteachings to change so they can remain comfortable as they are. This kind of attitude is indirect conflict with the purpose of the dharma and the teachings themselves. The dharma is meant to change US the dharma is not for us to change and doing so iscompletely unnecessary. The Buddhadharma has a pretty excellent track record of working.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63149)by Acchantika » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:26 pm

I feel this is really underestimating the power of Buddhist phenomenology. What might beBuddhism's most appealing factor to the Western intellectual mindset is that its primarysystem of inquiry is a very advanced form of phenomenology, so advanced that it overtakesanything similar ever produced in the West by millenia. It is also independently verifiable in away that other beliefs are not ‐ a highly intelligent person stranded on an island with noaccess to human knowledge may, in theory, arrive at the conventional meaning of dependentorigination, even karma and rebirth and so on, by logic alone. You can't really make this claimof other systems. Truth, being absolute, must be able to be universally realised and derived,assuming necessary mental capacity, or it can never be trusted as truth. I think the Buddharealised and taught this ‐ who, we remember, didn't have any of the anecdotal evidence wehave now. Would he really try to encourage us solely by appealing to future experience? Idon't think he did.

Food_Eatah wrote:

Typical Western Obstruction:Mis‐interpret the teaching to suit one's habits

deepbluehum wrote:I agree that testability would great, but their are limits to what one can gatherin terms of data. For example, there is no test that can falsify rebirth. The bestwe can hope for are two things: 1) anecdotal evidence and 2) one must enterthe path up to the fourth jhana and aver one's mind toward past lives and seewhat happens. The second would only be one's own subjective experience. Thesame applies to karma. We can look at examples like Ghaddhafi and apply thelives by the gun dies by the gun adage. Then, we can "test" in our ownexperience whether what the Buddha said is true, that good deeds result inpleasant condition and bad deeds result in painful condition. As to compassi‐o‐bots, you are missing a crucial element, the dharmakaya. This also hasabsolutely nothing to do with science, and cannot be tested, because it issimply awareness's own subjective experience, and by definition, isimmeasurable.









If we rely on anecdotal evidence, we are only reinforcing our previous beliefs ‐ that's why itisn't accepted generally as scientific, even though its based in scientific thinking. If weattribute truth value to claims of NDE's, or yogic recollection (even our own) it is only everbecause we assign the source credibility that we don't assign to other, competing anecdotes.That credibility is based on other assumptions, which sooner or later are found to beunfounded in any rigourous way. This is why it is a flimsy argument, the same every beliefsystem uses, and not necessary. Right view mean nothing without right understanding.

We cannot yet falsify rebirth completely, so it is disingenuous to call it an empiricalhypothesis. However, fortunately and possibly more importantly we can falsify nonrebirthand nonkarma. That is, it is impossible, for example, for energy to do anything other thancontinue. The conservation of energy is a "law" in physics. So literal non‐causation and non‐rebirth, at least of physical things, is impossible. We haven't quite proved the progression of amental continuum, of course, but this is much more powerful an argument than one thatappeals to anecdotal evidence, which science doesn't consider valid, and appeal to futureexperience, which philosophy considers a fallacy.

It is bizarre to me that so many Buddhists are critical of "Western science". I have no ideawhy. Everything we see in modern science is exactly what we would expect if the core tenetsof Buddhism are correct. Empiricism and materalism/"New Atheism"/physicalism etc. are notmutally exclusive.

Sorry for the wall of text, needed a vent.

True, and this is the biggest problem for this approach, the risk of becoming an armchair‐Buddhist. The best philosophers are scientists, meaning skepticism is the proper attitude forexperiment. But we should remember there is nothing to fear from skepticism or science,either way. They are on our side. The good thing about truth is that its invincible. Hooray!


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63150)by Acchantika » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:34 pm

As a strict skeptic you are in danger of remaining a thought‐o‐bot.

Nangwa wrote:

This is a major problem in my opinion and I dont think its just a "Western"problem.It is definitely most prevalent here though. This thread and all the other rebirththreads show bountiful evidence of Westerners who want to call themselvesBuddhists but want the teachings to change so they can remain comfortable as

Food_Eatah wrote:

Typical Western Obstruction:Mis‐interpret the teaching to suit one's habits







Whatever doesn't change is subject to decay. Buddhism works because when it went to Chinait became Chinese Buddhism, went to Tibet it became Tibetan Buddhism etc. None of thismeans the essence is changing, just that the methods needed to adapt to differentproclivities. If the Buddhism of pre‐scientific, feudal, shamanic societies is relevant to you,that's fine, but that isn't necessarily true for all.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63161)by Thug4lyfe » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:39 pm

I am saying alot of the mindset developed seems to be very attached to "anti‐Christian"beliefs, hence more attached to athiesm and science which are deemed superior. With thismind set many people would go as far to claim that Buddhism isn't even a religion becausethey are attached to the idea that only systems like Christainity etc constitute a religion!

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they are. This kind of attitude is in direct conflict with the purpose of thedharma and the teachings themselves. The dharma is meant to change US the dharma is not for us to change and doingso is completely unnecessary. The Buddhadharma has a pretty excellent trackrecord of working.

edearl wrote:

I do not understand. Are you saying that Christians are attached to scienceand atheism via philosophy?

Food_Eatah wrote:Attachment to Christianity, in turn gets attached to philsophicalspeculations, science and athiesm.







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