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non-initiates performing arcanaStarted by Guest guest, 6 Jun 2004

Guest guest

Guests

Posted 6 Jun 2004

Dear Bhadra Govinda prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your letter.

> Ideally speaking the standard is - initiated have to perform arcana.

> However we have to choose the best among the available lot for any

> service. Like if no one is present Srila Prabhupada said it is ok for

> a woman during her monthly cycle perform arcana, but we must not

stop

> seva.

>

> This is my understanding. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes this is correct, but she should be a brahmana. It is not acceptable for

non-brahmanas to do temple worship in ISKCON.

Your servant,

Nrsimha Kavaca dasa

Please visit our website: http://www.deityworship.com

+ Quote
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Guest guest

Guests

Posted 7 Jun 2004

> Yes this is correct, but she should be a brahmana. It is not acceptable

for

> non-brahmanas to do temple worship in ISKCON.

Yes prabhu. Agreed.

Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she) is
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available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone this

requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified brahmanas

are

around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some one

else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be stopped.

Ideally doctor must give medication, but in case of accident when no

qualified doctor is available then any one around may be allowed to give

some first aid / medication and not just wait for the doctor to come.

When Srila Prabhupada went to USA there were no brahmanas waiting for

him

there, but ...........he chose the best among the available lot and trained

them up and allowed them to do the seva inspite of all short comings.

There

is his famous prayer to the dieties in Australia that he prayed, he was

leaving Them in the hands of unqualified people but Krishna may guide

them

through the heart.

If only we did not forget how we all started deity

worship...................

I had my Gaura Nitai deities at home when I did not have even my first

initiation. I was chanting 16 malas, 4 regulative principles, o!ering

bhoga, mangalarati etc,. and waiting for 1st initiation. Purascharya??.

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

+ Quote

Guest guest

Guests

Posted 7 Jun 2004

Dear Bhadra Govinda dasa, PAMHO AGTSP

On Jun 7, 2004, at 4:12 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

>> Yes this is correct, but she should be a brahmana. It is not

>> acceptable for

>> non-brahmanas to do temple worship in ISKCON.

>

> Yes prabhu. Agreed.

>
http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1260105-non-initiates-performing-arcana/?do=findComment&comment=5606990http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1260105-non-initiates-performing-arcana/#


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> Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she)

> is

> available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone

> this

> requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified brahmanas

> are

> around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some

> one

> else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be stopped.

> Ideally doctor must give medication, but in case of accident when no

> qualified doctor is available then any one around may be allowed to

> give

> some first aid / medication and not just wait for the doctor to come.

There is a di!erence between giving CPR or basic first aid at an

accident and giving medication which has to be prescribed by a licensed

physician. Many times emergency operators tell people to do nothing

until the emergency medical technicians arrive. In other cases they

give instructions to people to give basic assistance. But if a

bystander were to try to actually administer complex medical procedures

without a license even at an accident he would be later liable to be

prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. As a fully trained medic

first aid instructor I am certainly aware of these facts at least

according to US Law. So I do not accept this analogy as being suitable.

You do not seem to be listening to what Nrsimha Kavacha Prabhu is

saying. To my knowledge there is NO ISKCON Temple (with or without

deities) run by completely uninitiated devotees. So if there is an

ISKCON Temple with deities there is certainly some initiated devotees.

Those devotees should, amongst themselves do the cooking and deity

worship. They should NOT delegate these duties to others who are not

initiated. And specifically those engaged in cooking and deity worship

should have 2nd initiation. Do you understand? There is probably NO

situation where an ISKCON Temple with deities is being completely run

by NON-initiated devotees. And if such a situation occurs then either

the GBC member for that area should send some 2nd initiate to take

charge and do the seva or He should arrange for whoever is doing it to

get initiated or He should move the deities to a place where they can

be properly looked after by 2nd initiated devotees.

> When Srila Prabhupada went to USA there were no brahmanas waiting

for

> him

> there, but ...........he chose the best among the available lot and


6/53



> trained

> them up and allowed them to do the seva inspite of all short comings.

Your assertion that Srila Prabhupada Himself had non-brahmanas cooking

and doing deity worship is incorrect. It may have been the case in 1965

when NO ONE was initiated. But as soon as devotees began to be

initiated the standard was and always will be, as Srila Prabhupada

instituted and wanted, that ONLY 2nd initiates do the cooking and deity

worship.

> There

> is his famous prayer to the dieties in Australia that he prayed, he was

> leaving Them in the hands of unqualified people but Krishna may guide

> them

> through the heart.

Yes, Srila Prabhupada prayed to Radha Gopinatha in Sydney, Australia. I

know this as I was their Head Pujari for many years. But he initiated

many devotees to look after them at the time when he made that prayer.

He did not just make a prayer and let non initiates worship them. It is

not correct to come to that conclusion from this story. Please don't

try to quote stories like this when I know very well the full

circumstances involved. Srila Prabhupada considered the devotees to be

unqualified in Australia, true, but he still gave them a chance to

worship Radha Gopinatha by taking those devotees and giving them 2nd

initiation so that they could worship the deities. Similarly we are all

unqualified to worship the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna but by the grace of

our Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada we have been given the chance to

serve the Lord. Srila Prabhupada gave us that chance to serve the Lord

by giving us the sacred thread and gayatri mantras and also initiating

us into the chanting of the Hare Krsna Mahamantra, and he instructed us

to always keep the highest standard of deity worship and have ONLY 2nd

initiates cook and worship the deities. Please help to keep this

standard if you truly want to please Srila Prabhupada.

> If only we did not forget how we all started deity

> worship...................

>

> I had my Gaura Nitai deities at home when I did not have even my first

> initiation. I was chanting 16 malas, 4 regulative principles, o!ering

> bhoga, mangalarati etc,. and waiting for 1st initiation.

> Purascharya??.

That's very nice. But that is Home worship. We are talking about Temple


7/53



worship here. Even for Home worship it is best to be 2nd initiated for

performing. In India in Vaisnava households the children cannot even

enter the house kitchen until they are initiated. Although the Holy

Name does not require formal initiation and is all that we need to

worship the Lord in this age of Kali. Still all the previous Acharyas

including Srila Prabhupada have encouraged us to take initiation as a

prerequisite to the performance of devotional service. Once the bhakti

lata bija or seed of devotion is planted in the heart of the disciple

at the time of initiation by the Guru then the activities of hearing,

chanting, worshiping, etc will begin to water and fertilize that seed.

Until then any service that we do is simply ploughing the field waiting

for the seed to be planted. No doubt there is eternal benefit from

performing these activities even before initiation. However the correct

method is to first take 2nd initiation and then learn the system of

deity worship under the guidance of the Spiritual Master and other

advanced Vaisnavas.

ys

Gaura Keshava dasa

PS I noticed that your email address is raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT)

com.sg.

Please do not make the mistake of thinking that there are no rules and

regulations in raganuga bhakti or that this stage can be artificially

attained by those who disregard the process of vaidhi bhakti and/or

pancaratric diksha.

+ Quote

Guest guest

Guests

Posted 8 Jun 2004

Dear Prabhu,

Namo Namah!! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!!!

All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot". This is

true in any situation. It does not matter whether it is in temple or home

or in road accident. I read your lengthy mail, and it seems you are in

complete agreement on this point. Only thing is I am saying "son-in-law"

and you are saying "daughter's husband"

Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out
http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1260105-non-initiates-performing-arcana/?do=findComment&comment=5606993mailto:%7Boption%7Dhttp://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1260105-non-initiates-performing-arcana/#


8/53



following

any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste*

brahmanas.

Niyamagraha!!

In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these 99%

population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way Srila

Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

There are some households where I personally placed pictures of Radha

Krishna / Gaura Nitai and taught them basic arati, bhoga o!ering and later

they have taken first initiation.

samo damas tapah saucam

ksantir arjavam eva ca

jnanam vijnanam astikyam

brahma karma svabavajam.

And please do not make the mistake that a person having e-mail address

*raganuga* is claiming himself to be ranganuga, just as mistaking a person

named Krishna is claiming himself to be lord Krishna. Thanks for asking

and I am happy to clarify.

Hare Krishna,

Your most humble servant,


-

"Gregory Jay"

"Bhadra Govinda Dasa"

Cc: "Nrsimha Kavaca (das) IDS" ; "Tattvavit

(das) ACBSP (BBT)" ; "India

(Continental

Committee) Open (Forum)"

Tuesday, June 08, 2004 6:19 AM

Re: non-initiates performing arcana

> Dear Bhadra Govinda dasa, PAMHO AGTSP

>

> On Jun 7, 2004, at 4:12 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

>


9/53



> >> Yes this is correct, but she should be a brahmana. It is not

> >> acceptable for

> >> non-brahmanas to do temple worship in ISKCON.

> >

> > Yes prabhu. Agreed.

> >

> > Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she)

> > is

> > available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone

> > this

> > requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified

brahmanas

> > are

> > around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some

> > one

> > else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be

stopped.

> > Ideally doctor must give medication, but in case of accident when no

> > qualified doctor is available then any one around may be allowed to

> > give

> > some first aid / medication and not just wait for the doctor to come.

>

> There is a di!erence between giving CPR or basic first aid at an

> accident and giving medication which has to be prescribed by a

licensed

> physician. Many times emergency operators tell people to do nothing

> until the emergency medical technicians arrive. In other cases they

> give instructions to people to give basic assistance. But if a

> bystander were to try to actually administer complex medical

procedures

> without a license even at an accident he would be later liable to be

> prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. As a fully trained medic

> first aid instructor I am certainly aware of these facts at least

> according to US Law. So I do not accept this analogy as being suitable.

>

> You do not seem to be listening to what Nrsimha Kavacha Prabhu is

> saying. To my knowledge there is NO ISKCON Temple (with or without

> deities) run by completely uninitiated devotees. So if there is an

> ISKCON Temple with deities there is certainly some initiated devotees.

> Those devotees should, amongst themselves do the cooking and deity

> worship. They should NOT delegate these duties to others who are not

> initiated. And specifically those engaged in cooking and deity worship

> should have 2nd initiation. Do you understand? There is probably NO

> situation where an ISKCON Temple with deities is being completely run


10/53



> by NON-initiated devotees. And if such a situation occurs then either

> the GBC member for that area should send some 2nd initiate to take

> charge and do the seva or He should arrange for whoever is doing it to

> get initiated or He should move the deities to a place where they can

> be properly looked after by 2nd initiated devotees.

>

> > When Srila Prabhupada went to USA there were no brahmanas

waiting for

> > him

> > there, but ...........he chose the best among the available lot and

> > trained

> > them up and allowed them to do the seva inspite of all short comings.

>

> Your assertion that Srila Prabhupada Himself had non-brahmanas

cooking

> and doing deity worship is incorrect. It may have been the case in 1965

> when NO ONE was initiated. But as soon as devotees began to be

> initiated the standard was and always will be, as Srila Prabhupada

> instituted and wanted, that ONLY 2nd initiates do the cooking and deity

> worship.

>

> > There

> > is his famous prayer to the dieties in Australia that he prayed, he was

> > leaving Them in the hands of unqualified people but Krishna may

guide

> > them

> > through the heart.

>

> Yes, Srila Prabhupada prayed to Radha Gopinatha in Sydney, Australia.

I

> know this as I was their Head Pujari for many years. But he initiated

> many devotees to look after them at the time when he made that prayer.

> He did not just make a prayer and let non initiates worship them. It is

> not correct to come to that conclusion from this story. Please don't

> try to quote stories like this when I know very well the full

> circumstances involved. Srila Prabhupada considered the devotees to

be

> unqualified in Australia, true, but he still gave them a chance to

> worship Radha Gopinatha by taking those devotees and giving them

2nd

> initiation so that they could worship the deities. Similarly we are all

> unqualified to worship the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna but by the grace of

> our Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada we have been given the chance to

> serve the Lord. Srila Prabhupada gave us that chance to serve the Lord


11/53



> by giving us the sacred thread and gayatri mantras and also initiating

> us into the chanting of the Hare Krsna Mahamantra, and he instructed

us

> to always keep the highest standard of deity worship and have ONLY

2nd

> initiates cook and worship the deities. Please help to keep this

> standard if you truly want to please Srila Prabhupada.

>

> > If only we did not forget how we all started deity

> > worship...................

> >

> > I had my Gaura Nitai deities at home when I did not have even my first

> > initiation. I was chanting 16 malas, 4 regulative principles, o!ering

> > bhoga, mangalarati etc,. and waiting for 1st initiation.

> > Purascharya??.

>

> That's very nice. But that is Home worship. We are talking about Temple

> worship here. Even for Home worship it is best to be 2nd initiated for

> performing. In India in Vaisnava households the children cannot even

> enter the house kitchen until they are initiated. Although the Holy

> Name does not require formal initiation and is all that we need to

> worship the Lord in this age of Kali. Still all the previous Acharyas

> including Srila Prabhupada have encouraged us to take initiation as a

> prerequisite to the performance of devotional service. Once the bhakti

> lata bija or seed of devotion is planted in the heart of the disciple

> at the time of initiation by the Guru then the activities of hearing,

> chanting, worshiping, etc will begin to water and fertilize that seed.

> Until then any service that we do is simply ploughing the field waiting

> for the seed to be planted. No doubt there is eternal benefit from

> performing these activities even before initiation. However the correct

> method is to first take 2nd initiation and then learn the system of

> deity worship under the guidance of the Spiritual Master and other

> advanced Vaisnavas.

>

> ys

>

> Gaura Keshava dasa

>

> PS I noticed that your email address is raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT)

com.sg.

> Please do not make the mistake of thinking that there are no rules and

> regulations in raganuga bhakti or that this stage can be artificially

> attained by those who disregard the process of vaidhi bhakti and/or

> pancaratric diksha.
mailto:%7Boption%7D


12/53



>

+ Quote

Guest guest

Guests

Posted 10 Jun 2004

Dear Bhadra Govindaji, PAMHO AGTSP

On Jun 8, 2004, at 6:48 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

> All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot".

> This is

> true in any situation. It does not matter whether it is in temple or

> home

> or in road accident.

Actually it does matter. Nrsimha Kavaca mentioned to you Srila

Prabhupada's standard for ISKCON Temple worship. I have told you that

there are NO ISKCON Temples without initiated devotees. Therefore you

have to accept Srila Prabhupada's standard that only 2nd initiates cook

and do arcana in ISKCON Temples.

As far as Home worship is concerned in India the system is the same. In

the homes of ISKCON members or friends there may be some

di!erences,

as Srila Prabhupada was not specific on this point of home worship to

my knowledge. However that does not change the fact that any Vaisnava

in India will tell you that one needs to be properly initiated to

perform Vaisnava Pancaratric worship either in the home or temple.

> I read your lengthy mail, and it seems you are in

> complete agreement on this point. Only thing is I am saying

> "son-in-law"

> and you are saying "daughter's husband"

You may be reading my email but you are not understanding my point if

you still keep insisting that non-initiates can do puja in ISKCON

Temples. Why? There is no need for this to go on. It is quite simple

for one to get initiated. 4 regs, 16 rounds etc. In a short time one

may be initiated. Then why is it necessary for one to do puja who is

not initiated. Let those persons chant Hare Krsna and then when they

become properly qualified and accepted by a Spiritual Master and

initiated they can begin their arcana training. This is the way in


13/53



which Srila Prabhupada and all the previous Acharyas have shown us how

to act. Mahajano yena gatah sah pantah. And it is also confirmed by

sastra. The system of Pancaratric worship is laid out clearly in the

sastras and amongst the initial requirements is Pancaratric diksha.

Sruti smrit puranadi pancaratra vidim vina. So called devotional

service that disregards the injunctions of the sruti smrti purana and

pancaratra literatures is simply a disturbance in society.

> Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out

> following

> any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste*

> brahmanas.

> Niyamagraha!!

Again you are trying to wrap yourself in the flag. When people say

things like this they think that they can substantiate their point by

saying that Srila Prabhupada did not want us to follow his instructions

strictly. This is not a fact. You tried to give that example of the

accident. I have shown you how that is not applicable. Then you tried

to show the example of Srila Prabhupada praying to Radha Gopinatha.

However since I was their pujari I know very well that Srila Prabhupada

did not leave them to be worshipped by non-initiated devotees. NO, on

the contrary He initiated many devotees and engaged those 2nd initiated

devotees only in their worship. Therefore you have not given any

instance where there was an ISKCON Temple in which Srila Prabhupada

allowed non-initiates to cook or do deity worship. If you cannot give

such an example please desist in misleading others on this point.

> In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these

99%

> population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way Srila

> Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

Home deities are NOT ISKCON deities. Their care and worship are taken

care of by the individual householders. It is not the responsibility of

the GBC or other authorities in ISKCON to see that the home worship of

individual's deities goes on. However it is certainly the

responsibility of the ISKCON authorities to see that the worship in the

ISKCON Temples goes on.

As far as saying that "every home should be a temple" please do not

confuse these two concepts. Of course Srila Prabhupada allowed

householders to have their separate homes but he encouraged people to

worship the Lord first of all in the Temples and then secondly also in


14/53



their own homes. But he made a distinction between the two which you

seem to be trying to blurr here. There is indeed a great di!erence

between ISKCON Temples and Householder's Homes. Therefore it is NOT

correct to say that Srila Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple,

in the sense of an o"cial ISKCON Temple. If this were the case then

all householders would need to sign over the deed to their homes to

several ISKCON trustees before having deities there. It is a

requirement of Srila Prabhupada's that all ISKCON Temples with deities

not be mortgaged and that the land should be held in trust by several

ISKCON Trustees. Please read His Divine Grace's Last Will and Testament

if you do not agree. Therefore once again I ask you not to confuse

issues by writing things that cannot be substantiated, are not clearly

stated, and are not the actual standard instituted by Srila Prabhupada.

If there is an ISKCON Temple where there are deities and that Temple is

completely run by 2nd initiated female devotees and there are NO 2nd

initiated male devotees (To my knowledge there are no such ISKCON

Temples). And further if all those 2nd initiated women find themselves

contaminated by their monthly periods at the same time. Then I can see

the point of allowing them to continue and do the puja so that it may

not be stopped.

I would like you to also please quote this quote from Srila Prabhupada

completely. You seem not to have included the last part of the quote.

That is after saying this, Srila Prabhupada said "But it is better not

to do." This means that although he made such a statement he wanted us

to avoid circumstances where that needed to be applied. I have shown

how it is extremely unlikely such a circumstance would arise. It is up

to the true follower of Srila Prabhupada to try to avoid such a

situation, not to make excuses why His Divine Grace's actual standard

cannot be followed.

> There are some households where I personally placed pictures of Radha

> Krishna / Gaura Nitai and taught them basic arati, bhoga o!ering and

> later

> they have taken first initiation.

That's nice. As I said above Srila Prabhupada was not very specific

about the standards for home worship. And Srila Jayapataka Maharaja

has

certainly been successful with this type of preaching to congregational

householders whether they be initiated or not. But the fact of the

matter is that Pancaratric worship whether in the home or in the temple

ACTUALLY requires Pancaratric diksha so you should not confuse this


15/53



system of congregational preaching with Srila Prabhupada's instructions

for ISKCON Temple worship. What you have described was not a system

instituted by Srila Prabhupada.

> samo damas tapah saucam

> ksantir arjavam eva ca

> jnanam vijnanam astikyam

> brahma karma svabavajam.

Sorry I don't understand why you are quoting this sloka. This sloka

describes the qualities of a brahmana. However the real point of this

whole discussion is NOT brahmanas. Actually when we speak of

"brahmanas

in ISKCON" we actually mean those with Pancaratric diksha. They are

more than brahmanas, they are Vaisnavas. So it is not a caste issue. We

don't have restrictions like that. However we do have the restriction

that one must have Pancaratic diskha (2nd initiation) in order to cook

or do deity worship in ISKCON Temples.

> And please do not make the mistake that a person having e-mail

address

> *raganuga* is claiming himself to be ranganuga, just as mistaking a

> person

> named Krishna is claiming himself to be lord Krishna. Thanks for

> asking

> and I am happy to clarify.

I would certainly be happy to know the reason you use "raganuga" as an

email address. Even though it does not necessarily mean anything, it

seems strange to use this word in this way if absolutely nothing is

meant by it. It may also mislead others. Just as one may use the email

address "puredevotee (AT) hotmail (DOT) com" yet why would one do so?

The usual

system of email identification is that the first part before the @ "at"

sign indicates the person or topic. Don't you agree?

ys

Gaura Keshava dasa

+ Quote

Guest guest Posted 13 Jun 2004


16/53



Guests

Still I cannot understand why you are putting so many words in my mouth.

You are saying things which I never said.

Hare Krishna,

YHS


-

"Gregory Jay"




(Continental


Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:37 PM


> Dear Bhadra Govindaji, PAMHO AGTSP

>

> On Jun 8, 2004, at 6:48 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

>

> > All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot".

> > This is

> > true in any situation. It does not matter whether it is in temple or> > home

> > or in road accident.

>

> Actually it does matter. Nrsimha Kavaca mentioned to you Srila

> Prabhupada's standard for ISKCON Temple worship. I have told you

that

> there are NO ISKCON Temples without initiated devotees. Therefore you

> have to accept Srila Prabhupada's standard that only 2nd initiates cook

> and do arcana in ISKCON Temples.

>> As far as Home worship is concerned in India the system is the same. In

> the homes of ISKCON members or friends there may be some

di!erences,

> as Srila Prabhupada was not specific on this point of home worship to

> my knowledge. However that does not change the fact that any

Vaisnava

> in India will tell you that one needs to be properly initiated to


17/53



> perform Vaisnava Pancaratric worship either in the home or temple.

>

> > I read your lengthy mail, and it seems you are in

> > complete agreement on this point. Only thing is I am saying

> > "son-in-law"

> > and you are saying "daughter's husband"

>

> You may be reading my email but you are not understanding my point if

> you still keep insisting that non-initiates can do puja in ISKCON

> Temples. Why? There is no need for this to go on. It is quite simple

> for one to get initiated. 4 regs, 16 rounds etc. In a short time one

> may be initiated. Then why is it necessary for one to do puja who is

> not initiated. Let those persons chant Hare Krsna and then when they

> become properly qualified and accepted by a Spiritual Master and

> initiated they can begin their arcana training. This is the way in

> which Srila Prabhupada and all the previous Acharyas have shown us

how

> to act. Mahajano yena gatah sah pantah. And it is also confirmed by

> sastra. The system of Pancaratric worship is laid out clearly in the

> sastras and amongst the initial requirements is Pancaratric diksha.

> Sruti smrit puranadi pancaratra vidim vina. So called devotional

> service that disregards the injunctions of the sruti smrti purana and

> pancaratra literatures is simply a disturbance in society.

>

> > Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out

> > following

> > any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste*

> > brahmanas.

> > Niyamagraha!!

>

> Again you are trying to wrap yourself in the flag. When people say

> things like this they think that they can substantiate their point by

> saying that Srila Prabhupada did not want us to follow his instructions

> strictly. This is not a fact. You tried to give that example of the

> accident. I have shown you how that is not applicable. Then you tried

> to show the example of Srila Prabhupada praying to Radha Gopinatha.

> However since I was their pujari I know very well that Srila Prabhupada

> did not leave them to be worshipped by non-initiated devotees. NO, on

> the contrary He initiated many devotees and engaged those 2nd

initiated

> devotees only in their worship. Therefore you have not given any

> instance where there was an ISKCON Temple in which Srila Prabhupada

> allowed non-initiates to cook or do deity worship. If you cannot give

> such an example please desist in misleading others on this point.


18/53



>

> > In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these

99%

> > population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way

Srila

> > Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

>

> Home deities are NOT ISKCON deities. Their care and worship are taken

> care of by the individual householders. It is not the responsibility of

> the GBC or other authorities in ISKCON to see that the home worship of

> individual's deities goes on. However it is certainly the

> responsibility of the ISKCON authorities to see that the worship in the

> ISKCON Temples goes on.

>

> As far as saying that "every home should be a temple" please do not

> confuse these two concepts. Of course Srila Prabhupada allowed

> householders to have their separate homes but he encouraged people

to

> worship the Lord first of all in the Temples and then secondly also in

> their own homes. But he made a distinction between the two which you

> seem to be trying to blurr here. There is indeed a great di!erence

> between ISKCON Temples and Householder's Homes. Therefore it is

NOT

> correct to say that Srila Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple,

> in the sense of an o"cial ISKCON Temple. If this were the case then

> all householders would need to sign over the deed to their homes to

> several ISKCON trustees before having deities there. It is a

> requirement of Srila Prabhupada's that all ISKCON Temples with deities

> not be mortgaged and that the land should be held in trust by several

> ISKCON Trustees. Please read His Divine Grace's Last Will and

Testament

> if you do not agree. Therefore once again I ask you not to confuse

> issues by writing things that cannot be substantiated, are not clearly

> stated, and are not the actual standard instituted by Srila Prabhupada.

>

> If there is an ISKCON Temple where there are deities and that Temple is

> completely run by 2nd initiated female devotees and there are NO 2nd

> initiated male devotees (To my knowledge there are no such ISKCON

> Temples). And further if all those 2nd initiated women find themselves

> contaminated by their monthly periods at the same time. Then I can see

> the point of allowing them to continue and do the puja so that it may

> not be stopped.

>

> I would like you to also please quote this quote from Srila Prabhupada


19/53



> completely. You seem not to have included the last part of the quote.

> That is after saying this, Srila Prabhupada said "But it is better not

> to do." This means that although he made such a statement he wanted

us

> to avoid circumstances where that needed to be applied. I have shown

> how it is extremely unlikely such a circumstance would arise. It is up

> to the true follower of Srila Prabhupada to try to avoid such a

> situation, not to make excuses why His Divine Grace's actual standard

> cannot be followed.

>

> > There are some households where I personally placed pictures of

Radha

> > Krishna / Gaura Nitai and taught them basic arati, bhoga o!ering and

> > later

> > they have taken first initiation.

>

> That's nice. As I said above Srila Prabhupada was not very specific

> about the standards for home worship. And Srila Jayapataka Maharaja

has

> certainly been successful with this type of preaching to congregational

> householders whether they be initiated or not. But the fact of the

> matter is that Pancaratric worship whether in the home or in the temple

> ACTUALLY requires Pancaratric diksha so you should not confuse this

> system of congregational preaching with Srila Prabhupada's

instructions

> for ISKCON Temple worship. What you have described was not a

system

> instituted by Srila Prabhupada.

>

> > samo damas tapah saucam

> > ksantir arjavam eva ca

> > jnanam vijnanam astikyam

> > brahma karma svabavajam.

>

> Sorry I don't understand why you are quoting this sloka. This sloka

> describes the qualities of a brahmana. However the real point of this

> whole discussion is NOT brahmanas. Actually when we speak of

"brahmanas

> in ISKCON" we actually mean those with Pancaratric diksha. They are

> more than brahmanas, they are Vaisnavas. So it is not a caste issue. We

> don't have restrictions like that. However we do have the restriction

> that one must have Pancaratic diskha (2nd initiation) in order to cook

> or do deity worship in ISKCON Temples.

>


20/53



> > And please do not make the mistake that a person having e-mail

address

> > *raganuga* is claiming himself to be ranganuga, just as mistaking a

> > person

> > named Krishna is claiming himself to be lord Krishna. Thanks for

> > asking

> > and I am happy to clarify.

>

> I would certainly be happy to know the reason you use "raganuga" as

an

> email address. Even though it does not necessarily mean anything, it

> seems strange to use this word in this way if absolutely nothing is

> meant by it. It may also mislead others. Just as one may use the email

> address "puredevotee (AT) hotmail (DOT) com" yet why would one do

so? The usual

> system of email identification is that the first part before the @ "at"

> sign indicates the person or topic. Don't you agree?

>

> ys

>

> Gaura Keshava dasa

>

+ Quote

Guest guest

Guests

Posted 15 Jun 2004

Dear Bhadra Govinda prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your letter.

> Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she) is

> available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone

this

> requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified brahmanas

are

> around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some

one

> else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be stopped.

I would like to stress here that this understanding is not correct. Ideally


21/53



is not an option. The sevait for the deity in an ISKCON temple must be a

brahmana, no matter which deities are being worshiped. Srila Prabhupada

was

adamant on this point. It is with such rationale that standards slip in

ISKCON.

As far as home worship is concerned please read the following quote from

Srila Prabhupada.

It is not necessary to be a Brahmin to have home altar,

Letter to: Mangalamaya, Madhupuri Calcutta 20 February, 1972

> All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot". This

> is true in any situation.

I cannot agree with this. It is not your right to choose in this situation.

The process of worship has been given by Krsna Himself. dharman to

saksat

bhagavat pranitam. Deity worship is a process of religion and only

bhagavan

can give religion. It is not up to us to change it at our whim.

> Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out

following

> any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste*

brahmanas.

> Niyamagraha!!

He wanted us to worship the deity according to rules and regulations of

deity worship, otherwise it would become idolatry. One of the first rules of

temple worship is that it is done by brahmanas. If we do not follow this

then we have certainly slipped into niyamagraha, rejecting the rules and

regulations of the scriptures (deity worship) and working independently or

whimsically.

> In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these

99%

> population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way Srila

> Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

This may be. Home worship is a completely di!erent proposition from

temple

worship. If the assertion you are making is in relation to home worship


22/53



then

I agree, however it is not correct for the deity in the temple to be

worshiped by non-brahmanas.

I hope this is clear to you prabhu.

Your servant,

Nrsimha Kavaca dasa

Please visit our website: http://www.deityworship.com

+ Quote

Guest guest

Guests

Posted 19 Jun 2004

Dear Narasimha Kavaca Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP.

I completely agree to what ever you have said now and earlier also. Same

with Gaura Kesava Prabhu. I said so even in my earlier mail. I am aware of

all those rules and quotes you are giving here.

To get across my point let me ask you a question.

In an ISKCON temple (not the home deities) where deities are installed,

say

the brahmanas who regularly perform worship are not available for what

ever

reasons (may be they suddenly lost faith, fell down and left the movement,

Krishna forbid). Who ever left behind is say only first initiation

devotees or some 16 rounders with out even first initiation. Until you send

another brahmana there, or until we get the existing devoteees their

second

initiation, say it may take a week's time. At that time *in the interim

period* for that week, do we allow the first initiated devotees or 16

rounders, to perform the seva (if they are willing to) or do we shut down

the altar until some qualified brahmanas come there?

Do we not "choose the best among the available lot" in a particular

situation, with out stopping seva?
http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1260105-non-initiates-performing-arcana/?do=findComment&comment=5607111http://www.deityworship.com/http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1260105-non-initiates-performing-arcana/#


23/53



This is true even when there are many qualified brahmanas for the service.

For eg in the recent Sri Panca Tattva deity installation, at Mayapur out of

hundreds of brahmanas who attended the ceremony, only a handful, that

is the

"best among the available lot" were allowed for the service. And it has to

be like that. I was there also with my 10 cent thread. I would not dare

claim my entry on to the altar, when all the more qualified brahmanas are

around. However if in some situation when more qualified brahmanas are

not

there, I definitely do o!er my seva, even though I think I am not

qualified. Recently I did 2 samskaras for devotee children (namakarana,

anna prasanna) when the likes of Gaura Kesava and Narasimha Kavaca

Prabhus

are not nearby. If more qualified brahmanas were there I woulld not do the

samskaras, as I think I am not fit to do all these samskaras. I would ask

the parents to look for more qualified brahmanas. However the devotees

said, they wanted only ISKCON priest do it for them so I did perform the

samskaras.

Hope by the mercy of Vaisnavas, one day I too can become qualified for

any

kind of seva for the devotees and the Supreme Lord.

Hope this keeps you in the best of health and Krishna Consciousness,

Hare Krishna,



-

"Nrsimha Kavaca (das) IDS"

"Bhadra Govinda Dasa" ;

"Gregory Jay"

Cc: "Tattvavit (das) ACBSP (BBT)" ; "India

(Continental Committee) Open (Forum)"

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 2:06 PM


> Dear Bhadra Govinda prabhu,


24/53



>

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Thank you for your letter.

>

> > Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she) is

> > available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone

this

> > requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified

brahmanas

are

> > around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some

one

> > else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be

stopped.

>

> I would like to stress here that this understanding is not correct.

Ideally

> is not an option. The sevait for the deity in an ISKCON temple must be a

> brahmana, no matter which deities are being worshiped. Srila

Prabhupada

was

> adamant on this point. It is with such rationale that standards slip in

> ISKCON.

>

> As far as home worship is concerned please read the following quote

from

> Srila Prabhupada.

>

> It is not necessary to be a Brahmin to have home altar,

>

> Letter to: Mangalamaya, Madhupuri - Calcutta 20 February, 1972

>

> > All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot".

This

> > is true in any situation.

>

> I cannot agree with this. It is not your right to choose in this

situation.

> The process of worship has been given by Krsna Himself. dharman to

saksat

> bhagavat pranitam. Deity worship is a process of religion and only

bhagavan

> can give religion. It is not up to us to change it at our whim.


25/53



>

> > Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out

following

> > any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste*

brahmanas.

> > Niyamagraha!!

>

> He wanted us to worship the deity according to rules and regulations of

> deity worship, otherwise it would become idolatry. One of the first rules

of

> temple worship is that it is done by brahmanas. If we do not follow this

> then we have certainly slipped into niyamagraha, rejecting the rules and

> regulations of the scriptures (deity worship) and working independently

or

> whimsically.

>

> > In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these

99%

> > population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way

Srila

> > Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

>

> This may be. Home worship is a completely di!erent proposition from

temple

> worship. If the assertion you are making is in relation to home worship

then

> I agree, however it is not correct for the deity in the temple to be

> worshiped by non-brahmanas.

>

> I hope this is clear to you prabhu.

>

>

> Your servant,

> Nrsimha Kavaca dasa

>

> Please visit our website: http://www.deityworship.com

+ Quote


To Whom it may concern especially, Bhadra Govinda das aka

raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg,
mailto:%7Boption%7Dhttp://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1260105-non-initiates-performing-arcana/?do=findComment&comment=5607052http://www.deityworship.com/http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1260105-non-initiates-performing-arcana/#


26/53



Guests

PAMHO AGTSP

Before I respond again to these ideas, I would like to make plain my

opinion with regards to statements in the sastra about these sort of

things. Many times it is mentioned in the sastra that it is an o!ense

to do a certain thing, and some sort of punishment is given. One should

note that the punishment is always temporary. Vaisnavas (except perhaps

Madhvas) do not believe in eternal punishment. Then again many times it

is mentioned that one derives spiritual benefit from performing certain

acts, (even though one may not be qualified to do them?). Please note

that spiritual benefits are eternal. Therefore under certain

circumstances one could say that since the benefits are eternal and the

punishment is temporary that one would be justified in performing the

act even though one is not fit sastrically to do so. However this is

not usually the system. A good example of this is touching the deity or

salagrama. According to the sastra non-Vaisnavas are forbidden to touch

the deity or salagama. The punishment given in Hari Bhakti Vilasa is

going to hell as long as the sun and moon shine (temporary but a long

time). However Hari Bhakti Vilasa also mentions the eternal benefits

for those who do touch the deity or salagrama. The question is should

non-Vaisnavas do this? Since it is not recommended by the sastra the

answer is NO. If a situation occurs where this happens then the persons

who authorize, encourage, or actually participate in this o!ense are

all responsible. Only the actual person who touches the deity or

salagrama will derive the benefit as well as the punishment. Those in

positions of authority who encourage anti-sastric behavior will have to

share in the punishment. Guru na sah syat, etc.

On Jun 19, 2004, at 6:09 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa aka

raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sgwrote:

> In an ISKCON temple (not the home deities) where deities are

> installed, say

> the brahmanas who regularly perform worship are not available for what

> ever

> reasons (may be they suddenly lost faith, fell down and left the

> movement,

> Krishna forbid). Who ever left behind is say only first initiation

> devotees or some 16 rounders with out even first initiation. Until

> you send

> another brahmana there, or until we get the existing devoteees their

> second

> initiation, say it may take a week's time. At that time *in the
mailto:%7Boption%7D


27/53



> interim

> period* for that week, do we allow the first initiated devotees or 16

> rounders, to perform the seva (if they are willing to) or do we shut

> down

> the altar until some qualified brahmanas come there?

>

> Do we not "choose the best among the available lot" in a particular

> situation, with out stopping seva?

To your knowledge has such a situation ever occurred? You keep writing

as though this is a real situation. Probably this will never occur.

Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Bhagavatam that there should be at

least 3 or 4 brahmanas when deities (I believe he mentions Radha Krsna)

are installed. So I cannot think of when there was a situation where 3

or 4 pujaris (who were the ONLY brahmanas in the temple) left exactly

at the same time. One should admit that this would be an exceptionally

strange circumstance. The only situation I can think of like this is

when an ISKCON guru bloops and his disciples all go with him.

Particularly I was thinking of 1982 when Jayatirtha left. Even in that

circumstance, there were still Prabhupada disciples around. Recently

when Harikesha left from Europe there may have been some situation

"like" this. But even then there are certainly some qualified persons

available for doing the puja. Whether they refuse to do it or not is

another question.

> This is true even when there are many qualified brahmanas for the

> service.

> For eg in the recent Sri Panca Tattva deity installation, at Mayapur

> out of

> hundreds of brahmanas who attended the ceremony, only a handful,

that

> is the

> "best among the available lot" were allowed for the service.

Sorry I don't understand this point. This is a negative proof. It does

not prove anything about the previous statement.

> And it has to

> be like that. I was there also with my 10 cent thread. I would not

> dare

> claim my entry on to the altar, when all the more qualified brahmanas

> are

> around. However if in some situation when more qualified brahmanas

> are not


28/53



> there, I definitely do o!er my seva, even though I think I am not

> qualified.

Certainly in complex rituals like installation one may not be trained

as others have been. That however does not disqualify one from helping

in some way. Not everyone involved in an installation ceremony will

need to perform complex rituals. Sometimes it is enough to help by

ringing a bell or waving a camara or reading from sastra. But still the

basic qualification for all those services in the temple is 2nd

initiation.

The problem is that we do many di!erent types of puja as you say. And

we see the qualifications for them as being di!erent. However the

sastra does not support this.

Technically one must be a Vaisnava to perform Vaisnava worship. One is

not technically a Vaisnava unless and until one has taken diksha

(Vaisnava Pancaratric diksha). Vaisnava worship is performed with

Pancaratric mantras. One who does not have those mantras will naturally

not be able to perform such worship. One gets those mantras (and

thereby the ability to use them in worship) at the time of Vaisnava

Pancaratric diksha. Actually the giving and receiving of those mantras

IS the essence of Vaisnava Pancaratric diksha. Sampradaya vihinam ye

mantras te nisphlala matah. The chanting of those mantras which are not

received through a bona fide apostolic succession (sampradaya) bear NO

fruit or result (nisphala).

"One should not fail to strictly follow the rules and regulations in

worshiping the Deity." NOD chpt 8

"Other rules are that one should not o!er foodstu!which is cooked by

a non-Vaisnava." NOD chpt 8

"One should not worship the Deity before a nondevotee." NOD chpt 8

(This seems not to be the o!ering of arati but the worship ceremonies

that are performed behind the curtains, privately by the pujaris)

"Touching the Deity

In the Visnu-dharmottara there is a statement about touching the lotus

feet of the Lord. It is said: "Only a person who is initiated as a

Vaisnava and is executing devotional service in Krsna consciousness has

the right to touch the body of the Deity." In India there was agitation

during Gandhi's political movement because the lowborn classes of men


29/53



like street-sweepers and candalas are prohibited, according to Vedic

system, from entering the temple. Due to their unclean habits they are

prohibited, but at the same time they are given other facilities so

that they may be elevated to the highest grade of devotional service by

association with pure devotees. A man born in any family is not barred,

but he must be cleansed. That cleansing process must be adopted.

Gandhi

wanted to make them clean simply by stamping them with a ficticious

name, hari-jana (children of God), and so there was a great tug of war

between the temple owners and Gandhi's followers.

But anyway, the present law is the law of all scripture - that if

anyone is purified he can enter the temple. Actually, that is the

position. Only one who is properly initiated, who is properly following

the rules and regulations, can enter and touch the Deity - not all."

NOD chpt 9

Please also note that in the 11 canto of Srimad Bhagavatam Chapter 27

"Lord Krsna's Instructions on the process of Deity Worship" the very

first qualification mentioned for the worshiper is "dvijatvam" (twice

born status). See 11.27.8 as follows "Now please listen faithfully as I

explain exactly how a person who has achieved twice-born status through

the relevant Vedic prescriptions should worship Me with devotion." The

next verse 11.27.9 also mentions this as a prerequisite. And the next

two verses 11.27.10 mention that the worshiper should chant Vedic

mantras and Gayatri at the 3 sandhya times.

> Recently I did 2 samskaras for devotee children (namakarana,

> anna prasanna) when the likes of Gaura Kesava and Narasimha Kavaca

> Prabhus

> are not nearby. If more qualified brahmanas were there I woulld not

> do the

> samskaras, as I think I am not fit to do all these samskaras. I would

> ask

> the parents to look for more qualified brahmanas. However the devotees

> said, they wanted only ISKCON priest do it for them so I did perform

> the

> samskaras.

That's very nice but I also don't see the relevance of this paragraph.

This has nothing to do with the above main point.

So let me ask you a question. Would these devotees want an uninitiated

person to do these samskaras?


30/53



There are several points being tossed around in this email. But let us

stick to the main one. You are proposing a scenario and suggesting a

solution which is unsastric. However I can suggest a sastric solution

to your extremely unlikely scenario. If indeed the only person left in

an ISKCON Temple is a first initiated or un-initiated devotee and the

deities are in need of a pujari, the solution is simple. That devotee

needs to call his or her GBC member who is responsible for the puja and

arrange for someone present on the spot to be initiated with the

Pancaratric mantras so that the deity worship can go on without o!ense

or break.

Srila Prabhupada showed us many times like in the case you quoted in

Sydney, Australia where he initiated persons to do the puja. This

initiation does not require that the Diksha Guru be physically present.

We have seen that Srila Prabhupada delivered these mantras to some of

his disciples by tape recording. Similarly we have telephone, tape, cd,

video, computer, email, fax, etc, etc, these days. All these things

although not traditional are not against the sastra. Therefore the

Diksha Guru can initiate a person immediately (by long distance if

necessary) to fill the void left in your hypothetical scenario

I anticipate that some persons will object to this saying that perhaps

the person who is to be given diksha is not qualified to receive it.

The answer is IF HE IS NOT QUALIFIED TO GET THE DIKSHA HOW IS HE

QUALIFIED TO TOUCH THE DEITY AND DO THE PUJA?

So you see there is actually ABSOLUTELY NO excuse for saying that there

are no brahmanas (2nd initiates, whatever) to do the puja in ISKCON

Temples. If there are none then make some. Srila Prabhupada in fact did

this. Stop trying to say that on one hand someone is qualified to do

puja but is unqualified to receive diksha.

ys

GKD

+ Quote


Dear Prabhu,


31/53



Guests

PAMHO. AGTSP.

This time also I agree to everything you say.

However still it is not clear to me "In the situation I referred, in the

interim period, until we get the diksa by telephone, especially for the

ISKCON installed dieties what does guru, sadhu and sastra recommend?"

I will be grateful for any information in this regard.

"May there be good fortune throughout the universe, and may all envious

persons be pacified. May all living entities become calm by practicing

bhakti-yoga, for by accepting devotional service they will think of each

other's welfare. Therefore let us all engage in the service of the supreme

transcendence, Lord Sri Krishna, and always remain absorbed in thought

of

Him."

(Srimad Bhagavatam 5:18:9.)

The above sloka is nothing related to the topic of discussion, but I have

this practice of reminding myself of some sloka from Bg or SB when I am

not

happy, to lift my self up.

Hare Krishna,

Let's chant and be happy!!!



-

"Gregory Jay"




(Continental


Tuesday, June 22, 2004 1:25 PM


> To Whom it may concern especially, Bhadra Govinda das aka


32/53



> raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg,

>

> PAMHO AGTSP

>

> Before I respond again to these ideas, I would like to make plain my

> opinion with regards to statements in the sastra about these sort of

> things. Many times it is mentioned in the sastra that it is an o!ense

> to do a certain thing, and some sort of punishment is given. One should

> note that the punishment is always temporary. Vaisnavas (except

perhaps

> Madhvas) do not believe in eternal punishment. Then again many times

it

> is mentioned that one derives spiritual benefit from performing certain

> acts, (even though one may not be qualified to do them?). Please note

> that spiritual benefits are eternal. Therefore under certain

> circumstances one could say that since the benefits are eternal and the

> punishment is temporary that one would be justified in performing the

> act even though one is not fit sastrically to do so. However this is

> not usually the system. A good example of this is touching the deity or

> salagrama. According to the sastra non-Vaisnavas are forbidden to

touch

> the deity or salagama. The punishment given in Hari Bhakti Vilasa is

> going to hell as long as the sun and moon shine (temporary but a long

> time). However Hari Bhakti Vilasa also mentions the eternal benefits

> for those who do touch the deity or salagrama. The question is should

> non-Vaisnavas do this? Since it is not recommended by the sastra the

> answer is NO. If a situation occurs where this happens then the persons

> who authorize, encourage, or actually participate in this o!ense are

> all responsible. Only the actual person who touches the deity or

> salagrama will derive the benefit as well as the punishment. Those in

> positions of authority who encourage anti-sastric behavior will have to

> share in the punishment. Guru na sah syat, etc.

>

> On Jun 19, 2004, at 6:09 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa aka

> raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg wrote:

>

> > In an ISKCON temple (not the home deities) where deities are

> > installed, say

> > the brahmanas who regularly perform worship are not available for

what

> > ever

> > reasons (may be they suddenly lost faith, fell down and left the

> > movement,

> > Krishna forbid). Who ever left behind is say only first initiation
mailto:%7Boption%7Dmailto:%7Boption%7D


33/53



> > devotees or some 16 rounders with out even first initiation. Until

> > you send

> > another brahmana there, or until we get the existing devoteees their

> > second

> > initiation, say it may take a week's time. At that time *in the

> > interim

> > period* for that week, do we allow the first initiated devotees or 16

> > rounders, to perform the seva (if they are willing to) or do we shut

> > down

> > the altar until some qualified brahmanas come there?

> >

> > Do we not "choose the best among the available lot" in a particular

> > situation, with out stopping seva?

>

> To your knowledge has such a situation ever occurred? You keep writing

> as though this is a real situation. Probably this will never occur.

> Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Bhagavatam that there should be at

> least 3 or 4 brahmanas when deities (I believe he mentions Radha

Krsna)

> are installed. So I cannot think of when there was a situation where 3

> or 4 pujaris (who were the ONLY brahmanas in the temple) left exactly

> at the same time. One should admit that this would be an exceptionally

> strange circumstance. The only situation I can think of like this is

> when an ISKCON guru bloops and his disciples all go with him.

> Particularly I was thinking of 1982 when Jayatirtha left. Even in that

> circumstance, there were still Prabhupada disciples around. Recently

> when Harikesha left from Europe there may have been some situation

> "like" this. But even then there are certainly some qualified persons

> available for doing the puja. Whether they refuse to do it or not is

> another question.

>

> > This is true even when there are many qualified brahmanas for the

> > service.

> > For eg in the recent Sri Panca Tattva deity installation, at Mayapur

> > out of

> > hundreds of brahmanas who attended the ceremony, only a handful,

that

> > is the

> > "best among the available lot" were allowed for the service.

>

> Sorry I don't understand this point. This is a negative proof. It does

> not prove anything about the previous statement.

>

> > And it has to


34/53



> > be like that. I was there also with my 10 cent thread. I would not

> > dare

> > claim my entry on to the altar, when all the more qualified brahmanas

> > are

> > around. However if in some situation when more qualified brahmanas

> > are not

> > there, I definitely do o!er my seva, even though I think I am not

> > qualified.

>

> Certainly in complex rituals like installation one may not be trained

> as others have been. That however does not disqualify one from helping

> in some way. Not everyone involved in an installation ceremony will

> need to perform complex rituals. Sometimes it is enough to help by

> ringing a bell or waving a camara or reading from sastra. But still the

> basic qualification for all those services in the temple is 2nd

> initiation.

>

> The problem is that we do many di!erent types of puja as you say. And

> we see the qualifications for them as being di!erent. However the

> sastra does not support this.

>

> Technically one must be a Vaisnava to perform Vaisnava worship. One is

> not technically a Vaisnava unless and until one has taken diksha

> (Vaisnava Pancaratric diksha). Vaisnava worship is performed with

> Pancaratric mantras. One who does not have those mantras will

naturally

> not be able to perform such worship. One gets those mantras (and

> thereby the ability to use them in worship) at the time of Vaisnava

> Pancaratric diksha. Actually the giving and receiving of those mantras

> IS the essence of Vaisnava Pancaratric diksha. Sampradaya vihinam ye

> mantras te nisphlala matah. The chanting of those mantras which are

not

> received through a bona fide apostolic succession (sampradaya) bear

NO

> fruit or result (nisphala).

>

> "One should not fail to strictly follow the rules and regulations in

> worshiping the Deity." NOD chpt 8

>

> "Other rules are that one should not o!er foodstu!which is cooked by

> a non-Vaisnava." NOD chpt 8

>

> "One should not worship the Deity before a nondevotee." NOD chpt 8

> (This seems not to be the o!ering of arati but the worship ceremonies


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> that are performed behind the curtains, privately by the pujaris)

>

> "Touching the Deity

>

> In the Visnu-dharmottara there is a statement about touching the lotus

> feet of the Lord. It is said: "Only a person who is initiated as a

> Vaisnava and is executing devotional service in Krsna consciousness

has

> the right to touch the body of the Deity." In India there was agitation

> during Gandhi's political movement because the lowborn classes of

men

> like street-sweepers and candalas are prohibited, according to Vedic

> system, from entering the temple. Due to their unclean habits they are

> prohibited, but at the same time they are given other facilities so

> that they may be elevated to the highest grade of devotional service by

> association with pure devotees. A man born in any family is not barred,

> but he must be cleansed. That cleansing process must be adopted.

Gandhi

> wanted to make them clean simply by stamping them with a ficticious

> name, hari-jana (children of God), and so there was a great tug of war

> between the temple owners and Gandhi's followers.

>

> But anyway, the present law is the law of all scripture - that if

> anyone is purified he can enter the temple. Actually, that is the

> position. Only one who is properly initiated, who is properly following

> the rules and regulations, can enter and touch the Deity - not all."

> NOD chpt 9

>

> Please also note that in the 11 canto of Srimad Bhagavatam Chapter 27

> "Lord Krsna's Instructions on the process of Deity Worship" the very

> first qualification mentioned for the worshiper is "dvijatvam" (twice

> born status). See 11.27.8 as follows "Now please listen faithfully as I

> explain exactly how a person who has achieved twice-born status

through

> the relevant Vedic prescriptions should worship Me with devotion." The

> next verse 11.27.9 also mentions this as a prerequisite. And the next

> two verses 11.27.10 mention that the worshiper should chant Vedic

> mantras and Gayatri at the 3 sandhya times.

>

> > Recently I did 2 samskaras for devotee children (namakarana,

> > anna prasanna) when the likes of Gaura Kesava and Narasimha

Kavaca

> > Prabhus

> > are not nearby. If more qualified brahmanas were there I woulld not


36/53



> > do the

> > samskaras, as I think I am not fit to do all these samskaras. I would

> > ask

> > the parents to look for more qualified brahmanas. However the

devotees

> > said, they wanted only ISKCON priest do it for them so I did perform

> > the

> > samskaras.

>

> That's very nice but I also don't see the relevance of this paragraph.

> This has nothing to do with the above main point.

>

> So let me ask you a question. Would these devotees want an uninitiated

> person to do these samskaras?

>

> There are several points being tossed around in this email. But let us

> stick to the main one. You are proposing a scenario and suggesting a

> solution which is unsastric. However I can suggest a sastric solution

> to your extremely unlikely scenario. If indeed the only person left in

> an ISKCON Temple is a first initiated or un-initiated devotee and the

> deities are in need of a pujari, the solution is simple. That devotee

> needs to call his or her GBC member who is responsible for the puja

and

> arrange for someone present on the spot to be initiated with the

> Pancaratric mantras so that the deity worship can go on without o!ense

> or break.

>

> Srila Prabhupada showed us many times like in the case you quoted in

> Sydney, Australia where he initiated persons to do the puja. This

> initiation does not require that the Diksha Guru be physically present.

> We have seen that Srila Prabhupada delivered these mantras to some of

> his disciples by tape recording. Similarly we have telephone, tape, cd,

> video, computer, email, fax, etc, etc, these days. All these things

> although not traditional are not against the sastra. Therefore the

> Diksha Guru can initiate a person immediately (by long distance if

> necessary) to fill the void left in your hypothetical scenario

>

> I anticipate that some persons will object to this saying that perhaps

> the person who is to be given diksha is not qualified to receive it.

> The answer is IF HE IS NOT QUALIFIED TO GET THE DIKSHA HOW IS

HE

> QUALIFIED TO TOUCH THE DEITY AND DO THE PUJA?

>

> So you see there is actually ABSOLUTELY NO excuse for saying that

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