Heavy Metal Be-bop #8 Damión Reid

8/10/2019 Heavy Metal Be-bop #8 Damin Reid

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HEAVY METAL BE-BOPInfo

INTERVIEWS about jazz and metal

by Hank Shtea mer

#8: DAMIN REID

PHOTOGRAPH : Emra Islek

[Abr idged v ersionHOSTED by Invisible Orang es; longer cu t below.]

Like prev ious HMB SUBJECT Craig Taborn, drummer Damin Reid doesnt wear his

metal fandom on his sleeve. Jazz fans know Reid as a deadly technician, whose crisp,

busy , furiou sly gr oov ing sty le per fectl y complemen ts th e high -tech prog-fun k

aesthetic of bandleaders such as Stev e Coleman, Rudresh Mahantha ppa and Stev e

Lehma n. His play ing often heats up to an aggressive boil, but it mig ht ma ke you think

of cutting-edge electronica before metal. So I was intrigued when a friend tipped me off

to Reids love of heavy music. As y oull read in th is wide-rang ing conv ersation, hes a

knowledgeable and OPINIONATED connoisseur of metal, w ho understands clearly

the sty les var ious affinities with jazz.

Damin and I met in Brookly n in May of 201 2 t o talk about jazz and metal.

A Damin Reid sampler:

HEAVY METAL BE-BOP #8: DAMIN REID 21/11/2014

http://www.heavymetalbebop.com/post/29308981230/8-damion-reid 1 / 17
http://www.heavymetalbebop.com/post/6384385484/2-craig-tabornhttp://www.invisibleoranges.com/2012/08/interview-heavy-metal-be-bop-8-damion-reid/http://www.heavymetalbebop.com/post/29308981230/8-damion-reidhttp://www.heavymetalbebop.com/infohttp://www.heavymetalbebop.com/


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Damin Reid: So how did you get started doing these interviews?

Hank Shteamer: Well, I grew up as a meta lhead in th e early 90s, and t hen I

got deep int o jazz once I got into college. For a while now, those two sty les ofMUSIC hav e made up the majority of my li stening, and I just became

curious about the connections between them. I started seeing jazz musicians

like Craig Taborn at met al shows and thought it would be fun to talk with

other people who SHARED my interests. On the surface, it might seem

weird to link t hese two sty les, but t here are al l kinds of hidden affinit ies.

I dont think its weird, because to be honest, I think the tradition of the drums itself is

a relatively new tradition, and if you look at the technical advancements that have

HAPPENED over th e year s to the drum set, its a direct ascension from the

foundation that most of the jazz masters laid down. So y ou hear a lot of even metal

drumm ers talk about Buddy Rich, Tony Williams, Billy Cobham. Why is that? Thats

because Billy Cobham ha d gr eat tech nique: ru dimen ta l, ex tr emel y fast w ith a lot of

cy mbal strokes. Tony William s, in my opinion, was the first person to ever play a blast

beat , th e first person to do snar e and BASS drum alternating going extremely fast.

Nobody else did that; y ou cant deny that. Extreme, ferocious technique with Tony an d

Billy, and the same goes for Buddy. Someone who just had hands out of this world. It

wa s something y ou aspir ed to get wh en y ou pla y ed the dru ms. And th en y ou look at

wh at met al dru mm ers did, also incorpora tin g foot tech nique w ith th at sam e prowess;

the best ones at least hav e hands [Laughs]. Some drumm ers work primar ily on their

feet and th eir han ds are crap. But y ou look at that ascension of technique getting

better a nd bet ter , a nd I thi nk i t a ll c omes from the sam e sourc e, so its only natu ra l for

a drumm er to think that, because a lot of the drummers tha t play in a lot of these

metal bands, a lot of them admit tha t they tried starting off as jazz musicians, and it

just didnt mesh in t heir commun ity , or t hin gs didnt w ork out th e wa y th ey wa nted,

or they WANTED TO MAKE MORE MONEY and they liked play ing groove stuff.

And then ther es some politic al ag endas as wel l, per spectiv es and beliefs th at dra w

y ou, a nd y ou expr ess tha t.

They re both rebel musics in a way. Conceptually , where they re coming from, the

middle finger is up consistently, a nd I think that somebody t hats really inv olved in

their cr aft, then y ou dont start l ooking at the label of genre; you start looking at

What is y our purpose as an ar tist? And then th is becomes univ ersal. You respect

someone thats play ing instrum ental [mu sic], music with v ocals, what ever; it doesnt

matter . If someones say ing, Fuck y ou, it r esonates, and y ou respect that . So I think

thats the continuity ; I think tha ts why it would only be a natur al [progression].

Thats just my opinion. Im not saying t hats why y ou did it, but thats why I wouldnt

even blink a t someone that would relate th e two, because thats what h appened to me.

Because I didnt grow up listening t o metal; it wa s the rev erse for m e. I grew up in a

household where my mother was a CLASSICAL vocalist and pianist and did a lot of

chorale and played chur ch mu sic and stuff, and my dad play ed more secular mu sic;he was playin g blues and funk and jazz. So I grew u p that wa y , and then I went to

college and start ed studying t echnique, playing more jazz, play ing some pocket stuff,

and then I got exposed to metal and other mu sicians that play what ever g enres you

wa nt to say . And th at lately ha s been annoying me, th e wh ole genre t hin g, beca use I

know its just some corporate w ay to sell something. Its really about where y ou come




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from, and tha ts why y ou sing about the things you sing about, tha ts why y ou play

the way y ou play.

Where do you first remember becoming aware of metal?

I heard it in high school, but I was the weirdo, because I went to private schools and

hung out in a v ery diverse [crowd], but still all my friends were of African-American

descent. So I gr ew up w ith a lot of b-boy s, like pop-lockers, brea kdancer s, beatboxers,

MCs. I loved that cult ure and tha t community , but as a drum mer, I heard Living

Colour. My cousin gav e me a Living Colour tape, Times Up, an d I just remember l osing

my wig, because the first song was a metal gr oov e. [Sings thrashy intro] So Tim es Up

came on, and I was like Wha t th e fuck?!? A nd as I got older, I hear d other drumm ers

that w ere lay ing it down, and a friend gave m e a Slay er record, I forget wh ich one. Im

not really a metal head; I just love the mu sic, if that ma kes any sense, because I didnt

grow up with [Snarly voice] Napalm Death and Slay er, and th e tapes and the T-shirts. I

wa s into hip-hop cu ltu re l ike tha t, but as a dru mm er, I just r espected t he fa ct t ha t,

heres a music tha t lets the drums be heard, because I said, Whoa, the drum s are

connected to hum an beings; this is a hu man t hing. So the fact that the drums ar e

importan t to the music meant a lot.

Because it seems like in Western classical music, the drums are more of this kind of

lacing t hat m akes the music demonstrativ e at a good point; its not part of the music

the way y ou would expect it to be, whereas its the reverse in African music or South

Am erican m usic , wher e al l of a sudden, t he dr um s ar e th ere a nd th e nex t thin g y ou

know, youre bobbing y our head. It migh t be two or thr ee chords, wh ereas Western

music migh t hav e, like, tons of chord progressions and the drum s are minim al. I

started seeing the difference, and I felt like jazz was a way of combining both of those

concepts: a bunch of harmony with t he forwar d motion of drum s. And then the first

time I heard a metal tra ck, I was like, Wow, this is all about the the drum s, and

there was a v ery specific songma king with th e drums; it wasnt just may hem. I

appreciated that. There wer e song forma ts: Youre supposed to play this am ount of

32n d notes for eight bars, and th en y oure supposed to switch into this. And y oure

playin g 5 /4 to this, while this person is play ing to the triplet of this. It was v ery

precise, whereas jazz most people think that its random because theres a lot of

improvisation and people are doing those things on the fly, but its based off of a grid,

so its still some of the same magic; its just a different spirit. But I appreciated that

from a drummers perspective, because I like the sound of the drums and I like music

that a ccentuates the drums, and I think thats why I enjoy the hip-hop world that I

grew u p with. But t hen I said, All th e hip-hop drumm ers didnt impress me. Whogiv es a fuck about y ou? I dont wa nt to name na mes, but I really didnt car e for th em.

I said, They re good, but whos playing the drum s? And I remember h earing Elvin

and Tony Williams and just being like, Whoa! Yes! Like, now I want to play jazzyou

know what I mean?

Same feeling, like these are drummer s that were play ing the drum s, and couldnt

nobody stop them. An d they made every body a round them sound better; y ou could

hear h ow they were pushing th e music. Like, I hav e records, it might ha v e been Tony

Willi am s wit h Jac kie McLean a nd Lee Morga n, and y ou ca n h ear how Lee Morg an

sounds with Art Blakey. A rt Blakey ha s this big beat, nice; he could play the drums

well, a nd he pushes and he h as a big sound and ev ery thing is str ong. But th eres

something v ery steadyy ou know, like a hitm aker, ju st Boom! He clocks it out.

Something about Tony , he could do the same thing , but he w as just ferocious with it.

He was constantly play ing with different ideas and rhy thms. He was composing parts

on the drums with the hi-hat a nd all these different things. So you talk a bout th e

complexity of how the drum set has evolved, he was one one of the first people who got

people thinking, You know, theres two legs here. We could do some things with this.

People forget that: The first person Ive ever seen with two bass drums was Sam

Woody ar d. Duke Ellin gt on needed th at propul sion; he w an ted th at strong low end. And

a lot of drum mers tha t play ed behind big bands, tha t wa s their job, to be this force,

this strength.




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And for me, in m odern m usic, I felt t ha t a ll t he r ecordin g a nd all t he c lichs tha t the

industry wants t o put on musicians killed jazz or the genr e of jazz, because they

wa nted ev ery body t o stay loy al to th is fixa ted g rid t hey creat ed for sales, wh ich

catered to a certain clientele. And wh en it started to evolve an d it started to get more

aggr essiv e, then people start ed to run from it in a wa y . And of course the thin gs that

Tony did with Lifetime, and things that Cobham did, and y oure hearing Lenny White

wit h Ch ick Corea a nd a ll t hose differen t ba ndsever y body w as r eal ly wh ipping ass

and then th e acoustic bass players had to plug in, or y ou just get electric bass. The

sound and ev ery thing star ted to grow. So when I started listening to metal a little bit

through high school, just little flashes of it, I started thinking, Wow, th ese drum mers

are really, really playing the shit out of the drums.

But then the social aspect around the scene made me leery because being one of the few

guy s that w as into that ty pe of stuff, y ou got ostracized by y our people and by th e

people that y ou were try ing to go and hang with. You know wha t I mean? So it was

this conundrum; y ou were sitting there like, Wha t the fuck am I doing h ere? Im

over here trying to hang and check out this music, and theyre like, Who the fuck are

y ou, a nd why ar e y ou? You feel th at ener gy ; y ou know wh at that ener gy is. Im

like, [Perplexed] Damn, well, alright. And your boys go through your tape case and

they see the Slay er tape, and ask, What ar e you, a devil w orshipper? No, y ou

douche, its not that! So I just felt like I would be a lover of the instrument and justrespect those that I felt really showed up to crush the instrum ent, and tha t became

wh o I wa s a fan of: Those who showed u p to crush . I dont ca re w ha t g enr e y ou wer e in,

wh at they saidy ou were: You were countr y ? if you showed up and smacked the shit

out of a country song an d you were clean and y our drums sounded good and y ou got a

good soundoh, man, I would love you! I didnt care if you played with, you know, Tim

McGraw. It didnt matt er to me! And people thought I was cra zy for that . When I say

people, I mean my close friends that I grew up with. So I just kept it kind of as a quiet

little thing, l ike [keeping my ] tape case under the bed, all the tapes that ha d the

Parental Adv isory sticker on there, t hat y ou could peel off. Remember th at shit?

Wher e y ou could peel it off and come home an d say , Mom, t his i s the tape. You

couldnt do that with , like, Slay er, because the album cover itself was just as bad!

[Laughs] So you had to get a dub.

I remember falling in love wit h Dave Lombardo just because I thought t hat w hat h e

did on the kit, there wa s some rebellion on there, but it was clean a s day, a nd I am a

fan of those ty pes of technicians that hear t he spaces in between their rh y thms, th e

rests, if that makes any sense. Not just sheets of sound and shit. Because I heard

Cobham g et up to 16t h notes and whip ass, and his han ds just [Roars], and Im just

like, Whoo! Thats sick. But then Lombardo, his feet were just fly ing, a nd it wa s just

clean flurr ies I didnt understand why Metallica w as so big. I didnt even get it.

Because I felt like, Wow, th e drummer is the guy thats usually pushing But once

again, thats the beast. That s this machine, an d it forces people to buy into a certa in

thing, when y our ears and your heart r eally lead.

So when I mov ed [to New York], another g roup that I fell in love with that finally took

me over into total dru m g eekdom was wh en I heard Meshuggah. I just lost my shit. Im

going to see them this month; Ill be there. I gotta go, just because And I saw Slayerthe last time th ey w ere here with Megadeth, at th e island. Not the one with Metallica,

but th e one before th at . I wa s about to go to th e one at Yan kee Stadiu m, because I

wa nted to see Lomba rdo wh ip on Lars. I just w anted to see tha t h appen. [Laughs] I just

wa nted to see it g o down. How a re y ou goin g to get onstag e? Okay , y ouv e got m ore

hits, whatev er. But how are y ou going to phy sically get on that stage? And then,

[Lombardos] still the only g uy that doesnt really use triggers! Fucking awesome, and




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it still sounds meaty , because youre still getting the art iculation because of how he

plays, tech nique, and a lso how he tu nes, the ty pe of beaters he probably goes into,

multiple micsmic in, mic out, resonant side Thats how you do it in the studio to get

articu lation, so why wouldnt it work live? But th e triggers are just this new

phenomenon. The guita r play ers show up with their program med sequences for y ou to

learn and then they want to hear it back liv e, so its just a way for them to get what

they gav e you on a computer sequence liv e. I remember hearingI forget th e

drumm er that plays for Megadeth now; hes a y oung guy . Hes a real clean cat: play s

his parts very well. I had no arg uments, but wh en Lombardo came up there,

Lombardo was play ing all these fills, just whipping on the kit. And I was just argu ing

wit h a bass pla y er before th e gig cam e on. He was telling me t ha t [ex Mar s Volta

drumm er] Thomas Pridgen play ed too many fills, right? And I said, Yeah , but

Thomas Pridgen has a g reat facility and he ha s a good beat, and I feel like even when

he does lay into it, the shit feels sick and his fills feel like theyre in the pocket. I feel

like thats why y ou play a fill. Its when a fill is out of the pocket that it feels annoying ,

y ou know wh at I mean ? Hes like , Yeah, but y oure supposed to play th e song and do

all th is. After Slay ers set, Im sitting th ere looking at him, like, What did Lombardo

just do? It didnt sound noth ing like th e rec ord. He pla y ed his parts from th e rec ord,

but he w as ju st wh ipping on th e kit . I love it. An d he seem s to be an open-minded guy

because of th e colla borat ions hes done wit h oth er m usic ian s tha t are impr ovisers a nd

stuff, and that really opened my hear t too.

But wh en I heard Meshuggah, t he first thing I thought was, Okay , heres this

ferocious bandCookie Monster vocals is the joke that me and my friends [have]. But

the r hy thm, right ? It just reminded me of almost like some Stev e Colemanesque stuff,and I said, Damn! This is ridiculous. But th eyr e play ing it har d. So I started to get

into Thomas Haake, and I started to really ch eck his stuff out and just see what he was

up to, and he just seemed like a cool dude, loved play ing th e kit, real techn ical, and it

just opened my mind up. Th e comm unity ha s cha nged wit hin th e jazz dru m circuit,

wh ere i t u sed to be about th at . I would hea r a bout h ow al l th ese dru mm ers talked

about one another, how they all subbed for each others bands, I was like, Wow, its

still all music to everybody. Ive always wanted to be a part of a community that was

kind of like that, so I started having some second-guessing about whether I was in the

right genre, because I just didnt feel the cama raderie in a w ay . I felt like the love for

being wi th a g roup of people an d ma king mu sic is w ha t it s about . I feel lik e th at s th e

utopia, and I didnt feel like thats what was really occurring a s much [in jazz].

But the music came out of social conditions, and I feel like metal came out of a social

condition, out of Damn this; I wont do it; it doesnt make any sense to me. And peoplethat were writing about these existential things, and nothingness and very high

philosophical concepts about Who are we? and What is this? an d things like th at,

and atheists and agnostics and thing s like that, wh ich ma kes sense. And then I was

like, Okay, these are the same questions that people were hav ing play ing [jazz] in the

60s and 50s, because there was so much bullshit going on with civ il right s. Thats

wh y th e mu sic had so mu ch depth and ener gy to it. It wa snt j ust because of th e fact

that these guy s were brilliant a rtists, it was because of the shit that they had to deal

with before they got onstage. And I feel like when y ou hear a bout some of these metal

ban ds, th ese gu y s go and work in m achine shops an d lumber y ar ds just t o mak e ren t,

and then th ey show up, pract ice together because they love each other as a squad, get

onstage and y oufeelthat. That is lacking, I feel. And that s why I started keeping an

ear to the ground about wh at wa s happening in m etal.

So you th ink th at camaraderie is lacking in jazz?

Heck, yeah! Just th e sense of brotherhood and cam araderiewhy we play music. An d I

feel like gr oups arent r eally honored any more; nobody liv es and dies with each others

problems. But wh en y ou hear about these bands, you hear a bout th em hating each

other, loving each other, going through problems with one another, letting each other

go through their problems as men and coming out. You hear about corporations doing

the same shit, men that started firms and shit. Falling out with y our wife, getting a

divorce, selling th e house, dealing w ith it, still keeping y ou on as partner, ch anging,

getting bought out, all t his stuff that h appens. Its the same concept. What h appened

to the fact th at wh en you hav e a group of people and you believe in each other, y ou

roll out as fam; you let each other go through w hatev er youre going through because

y ou know th at th at person, w hen th ey do their th ing , th ey re bri llian t at it . An d

sometimes, we go through our shit, but I feel like the academia a spect that has plaguedthis social music

See, people went to college to learn how to play the instrum ent; they didnt go to learn

how to play the m usic. Thats the problem. An d thats one thing I dug about hip-hop:

You r ead books; y ou lea rn how t o conjug ate v erbs; y ou lea rn imag ery ; y ou lea rn that

in school. But wh en y ou rhy me, its about th e knowledge that y ouve acquired that




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makes you a good MC, not about the fact that you went to school and someone toldy ou

how to rap. You see? You g o to school and y ou learn y our rudiments; y ou learn h ow to

play the kit; y ou develop some technique. And th en when y ou show up a nd somebody

says, Lets play , y ou use all y our knowledge to create. Thats lacking; t heres all of

the sudden now a school about cr eating, th erefore some thin gs are g etting stifled and

we h av e expectations tha t eit her get exceeded or nev er g et m et becau se we th ink th is

is what it is, instead of listening to what th at ar tist really wants to do within h is

community . And I feel like the academic element about how to play this music, jazz,

has really killed it. Because now if someone like Craig Taborn wants to do something

completely off the cu ff, do something with electronics or something, theres a pur ist

that only wants to hear piano thats saying th at hes crazy. Someone who thinks hes

ridiculous with electronics is mad because hes not playing with a drumm er, and hes

playin g solo. You can t win out her e, right? Its only because the expectations hav e

been someh ow ma nu fact ur ed. An d Im using th ese terms becau se I real ly do feel like

theres a mach ine, and its all about sales. So if the sales tell y ou, This is what y ou

need to be, then th ats what y oull be.

Speaking of the lack of camar aderie, hav e you heard about t he problems

with t he Black Sabbath r eunion?

[Discuss ion of the details]

So please dont tell me t hey re going to get another drumm er

No, they are! And Bill wrote t his whole th ing about how, This is for all t hedrummers that got stiffed out of their royalt y pay ments

Whoo, Bill! Becau se theres so mu ch of this shit g oing on, m an. Th eres this hiera rc hy

out there, and the reason I laug h is because what we do, Hank, is actually the helm.

We ar e th e hel m; w e ar e th e th rone; t ha ts wher e th e buc k is; th at s wh ere i t stops. But

they want us to be the ma id of the band; no, no, nowere actua lly the motherfuckin

boss. But th e thing is, is that, Well, some drumm ers dont learn th eir har mony; they

dont learn t he craft of the music. Okay, so they put th e technicality on you. Some

guitar play ers dont either! Some bass players dont! They just learn a few riffs and

thats their shit! Like, what th e fuck are we ta lking about out here? The fact of the

matter is that th e drums were the first instrument, over th e voice. Thats it: drums

and v oice. So thats why v ocalists and drum mers ar e so important in a bandrock or

wh at ev er i t is. Wel l, i n ja zz, whoever s play ing th e lead up fr ont is t rea ted as a

v ocalist, a nd when they cont inu e to ma ke a lot of money , whet her th ey re composingthe songs or wha tever, th ey get th e credit. The hum ility of the drumm er We are the

samura i; we are the reason why y ou sleep at nigh t; we are the reason why people say

y our n am e, and we ar e th e rea son why people dont com e test y ou. Believ e th is. And I

know it might sound Old World, but it is! And in a very true sense, the drum mer ha s

to know a ll the parts; the drum mer h as to know w hats happening in order to be so

insane and so supportive. People think t hat its a ju st a job; were just flailing . Were

just back th ere doing our th ing an d sweat ing an d the nex t thin g y ou know, tha ts it .

Oh, and then its a big deal when we ask somebody, Can y ou help me carry this?

Some drum mers dont ev en ask; they ju st show up, set their shit u p, blast, break the

shit down, th row it in the tr uck, g o get a beer, fuck tw o girls, go to sleep, wake up, do it

again, t hen wha t? Then y ou mad at em! Then y ou dont want to talk to them because

y oure like, Damn, howd y ou do tha t? Hes a soldier , m an . Th eres something to

that, and theres something lacking w hen the drum s are disrespected. To me it says a

lot about wh ere your mind is in terms of play ing any ty pe of groov e-based music. It

says a lot; it really does. And its not to take aw ay from the prowess of all th ese other

instrumenta lists that a re great t echnicians and writers and composers. Im not try ing

to say that t hey re bad. Im just try ing to say tha t there ha s to be this relationship of

respect between both. And I dont think m ost people look at the drum mer with that

rev erence. You understand the corporations are going to come for y ou, but if y ou dont

look out Because the corporations are only going to come for a drummer if a

drumm er is bombasticIm ta lking a bout in his personality wantin g to get a ll the

attention and become the frontman and say , Im the leader, and y ou cant deny

him. But theres a lot of people that just ar ent like that, t hat are geniuses. And, like,

let them h av e their shine! You know tha t y our record sold because of them; y ou know

that people come to your shows because they know th at th at drum mers going to bring

it. You know tha t tha ts why they showed up. So why do you tr eat them like a second-class citizen, and why do you tr y to give them ev en less money ?

The reason why I said samura i is most of the time, r espected soldiers are usuall y taken

care of, because [people] understand y our va lue. And in tha t society, they were the

aristocrats, even though th ey w ere the warr iors. They picked flowers. Theres

something m anly about knowing h ow to grow something and about knowing wh ats


http://darkforcesswing.blogspot.com/2012/05/dealbreaker-on-black-sabbath-reunion.html


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beau tifu l in natu re. Theres somet hin g m anly about knowi ng how t o take c ar e of your

body a nd y our fa mi ly and crops. Ther es someth ing ma nly about kn owing wh at tastes

good[being a] cult iva ted individual. A lot of drummer s that I know are usually like

that. A nd theres something in society t hat tells y ou to treat th e drummer like the

slave, an d I think its really simple: The drums remind y ou of something A frican, and

in this society , any thing African is just considered sub-class citizen, so a drumm er is

just a sub-class citi zen beca use hes not doing an y th ing of relev an ce, bec au se [Stodgy

voice], Those Negroes do nothing of relevance. I think its a direct social connect.

Like, when Lombardo left Slayer. None of those drummers can hold a fuckin candle to

his shit. They were good, but they couldnt hold a candle to his shit. The moment he

got back in th e band, Whoop! They went u p like that. All of a sudden, [people] were

like, Oh man , hav e you hear d Slay ers new record? The people that dont know shit

wer e just flippin . The people tha t kn ew Lomba rdo joined the ba nd were h appy . And

Im not saying t heres anyt hing wr ong with people liking who they like on the drums

and every thing like tha t. But if somebody crushes, and somebody really has this

personality, w here you know they h av e this regal-ness about their craft, they re the

reason why y oure there. And youre the reason why they re there; it takes two. And I

dont feel like that giv e and take is something thats usually there. People usually read

the press, they see that, okay , leader of the band, Ozzys this and th at, g irls like him,

hes crazy, hes sick, so hes like, Im Black Sabbath. I dont th ink he feels that, bu t

Im say ing th at people think that that s what it is, so if they can see his face, then

they re cool. Some people will show up to the concert and n ot even know tha t Billys

missing, because in their m ind, Black Sabbath is Ozzy. I think t hat that social problem

has been in music for a long time.

The reason why I brought u p the whole African thing is because the drummer is the

leader and the ma ster of the group. So you go to Cuba, m aster drumm erbang!

Respect. But theres still th is weirdness that ha ppens in th ese cultures, because still the

musicians that play chordal instruments and do all these different things, wheth er

they play m ultiple instruments or wha tever it is, they get a certain ty pe of corporate

respect, because [people] feel like y oure playing music in a more advan ced way . They

dont look at rhy thm a s something thats adva nced. They think of rhyt hm as

something th ats innate; they dont look at rhy thm a s something that y ou hav e to

practice at and actu ally be able to execute. When other people are off, tha t affects the

continuity of what y oure doing too. So every body has to find a way to get good in

order to keep up with someone thats nailing shit too. So that s why y ou alway s hear

the joke: Ev ery things wr ongits the drumm ers fault. Its rushing or dragg ingits

the drum mers fault. If youre going to blame us, and we do hold it down, an d theny oure going to get ma d at that, and th en y our response is, Okay , Im going to just pay

him less than ev ery one else, or Im going to try to not giv e him shine. Why does that

happen? I feel Billy for wha t he say s, because it happens so much in our craft as

drummers.

Like, Im not even g oing to say the art ists name, I told [an] artist tha t I was practicing

the other day , and he said, Oh, so you had a protein shake. And I said, Oh, wow,

thats funny. I get your joke. Okay, ha ha. What youre basically saying is, my

practicing r equires physical fitness but your pra cticing r equires something cerebral?

So wha t Im doing doesnt require my mind, it just requires my body. Oh, r eally ? This

is when I just want to hand sticks to someone and say , Tell all four of your l imbs to do

this. Tell m e that s not cerebral. Do this. Just do it! Since y oure so intellectual. But y ou

cant. Oh, okay , so why is my mind less? Its really a disease man. I dont know wh at

it is, but its plaguing m usic. And then on the other ha nd, theres people in music tha t

love drum s. They say, Thats my guy . If youre not eating, and y oure not living and

y oure not l iv ing

That breeds creativity and it breeds wealth; it breeds unity.

To get back to metal, who are some other drummers in tha t real m tha t

impress you?

Whats m y ma n, Gene?

Hoglan?

Yep. Ca use h es just th is hu ge g uy . He r eminds me of, like, th e dent ist of met al . He

shows up and y oure looking at him, like, what? An d theres just nothing but

technique coming out. And hes been in mul tiple bands; I cant tra ck him . I know him

wh en I see him . So actu al ly Im m ore inter ested in wh at hes doing th an wh o hes

playin g with because I know every bodys stoked to hav e him on the kit.

Theres this other drum mer tha t fucking floored me, and the only reason why Ive

gotten familiar with him was because of some of the things h es done with all the




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clinicians, was Th omas Lang. Its because his technique is just insane. I lov e what he

does on the kit. More than Marco Minnemann, more than any of these other guy s. And

he just has that vibe: I show up to crush. I come to shred. I come to blow the kit up and

leav e. I go home to my wife and kids; I go golfing, w hatev er, but when I show up, I

come to do my thing. And I like that about him. He does a lot of stuff with European

pop/rock stars and a lot of experimental stuff and demonstration ma terial, but h e just

recently auditioned for Dream Theat er. And t hey had Derek Roddy, Thomas Lang,

Marco Minnemann and Mike Mangini, who actually got it. Mike Manginis a great

musician; he play s guitar, h e reads. And Thomas is a great m usician as well. Thomas

wa s the better dr um mer , by the wa y . Th omas sh owed up a nd cr ushed, bu t they didnt

dig Thomas. You know why they didnt dig Th omas? Cause Thomas showed up to do

his job, which w as crush. And they were more intimidated with Thomas, because they

wer e like , You kn ow, y ou pla y ed al l th is other stuff He w as th rowing th em! He w as

playin g so much shit! And he comes from a cr eativ e, improviser perspective as well.

He was kind of like, I show up and play the way I play . If you hire me to play the way

I play , then cool. I actually think th ey w ouldv e been better off with Thomas Lang.

Because I think th at Th omas Lang w ouldv e showed up, and every night, he just

woul dv e been t he dr um god th at th ey wa nted onst ag e. [Mike] Portn oy i s cool, an d he

plays that g ig v ery w ell. Hes a great showma n, and he has great foot technique and

every thing. Nobodys taking any thing from him. But I feel like Lang ju st showed up

and play ed that m usic better than a ny body else. It was this one epic song that th ey

had, and he ju st played his fills, full of intensity and a lot of great technical

informa tion that he was thr owing in, and I just didnt understand why they wouldnt

pick that guy .

And I guess th at s the story of my life. Like, w hy isnt Sla y er in the Rock and Roll Hal l

of Fame? Why not? I dont know wh y they shouldnt be. They ve g ot one of the best

drumm ers of all time that was a fucking innova tor on the kit, and you dont hav e that

ban d in t he Rock an d Roll Ha ll of Fam e? I dont get it. All th e gu y s I like, ev en if i t goes

to MCs or h orn players, gu y s that I think ar e, like, the raw est, its like, why dont we

say it? Why dont we embrac e him? May be its because the mach ine doesnt want y ou

to. Maybe they dont play the game in a certain way. And I felt that in [Thomas

Langs] interview for th e Dream Theater g ig. Thomas wa s just kind of like, If you dig

it, y ou dig it. A nd he should be like that, because hes a badass. Because he play ed

everything correct. He was a professional, and I feel like, why not? Some people dont

like it when y ou put too many whistles and bells on it. May be thats what it is, a sense

of taste. I dont think he did; I think his whistles and bells were tasteful.

The reason why the buck almost started and stopped for m e with Meshuggah was therhy thmic a pproach. I felt like it was more how I heard metal in my head. Then I

started hearing all th ese names for th e shit: mathcore, and all this other stuff. And

they were saying the same thing t hat I would hear Steve [Coleman] or Greg [Osby ]

say, a bout doing complex rhy thms over 4 /4. An d that new [Meshugga h] record is

good, but I feel like th ey really wanted to make a point to people that t hey could just

play some good stuff, you know what I mean? Its not ObZenor Chaosphere ; its not epic

like those were, where y oure just sitting th ere, like, Whoa, did they just reall y do

that? For a whole record?

The only r eason I named Living Colour w as because it was the first tape I got at 1 3, 1 2

or something, where I put it in and I heard [Will Calhouns] double-bass drums hit me

like that. And th en I went researching for it. I went through my dads record

collection, and I found some Cobham. It just sparked some shit in my brain to look for

more drums, because I heard somebody play something and then break down in thepocket, and th en the next song w as more in the groov e, and then this song w as punk. It

wa s crea tiv e. Th at s th e only rea son why . Im n ot say ing Im a die-hard fa n of

everything that theyve done, but Im definitely a fan of the fact that they managed to

pull something out of me at a y oung age th at I would really be inclined to like. Based

off of my envir onment and every thing t hat I was around, I feel like I was probably




9/17

going to just make beats and be a b-boy and play drums for certa in situations. And

then slowly I ended up moving on to play ing jazz drum s the more I started hangin g

out with Billy Higgins an d getting those types of gigs, and I saw th e beauty and the

essence.

And I nev er h ad those elder s tell me n ot to be my self. Tha ts w hy I ment ioned

academia earlier, was because when I moved to the East Coast to go to school, it was

the first time I heard people say, Play like Roy Hayn es; play like Elv in; play like

Tain. And I said this at one point; people thought I had a bad attitude, but I said it:

Well, why dont y ou go hire him ? And they looked at me like, How dare y ou? And

Im like, Well, y oure asking me to be somebody ; Im not that guy . If you want me to

play a r hy thm, th ats different. You want m e to play some informa tion, give me therhy thm a nd lets play that. But wh en youre getting int o aesthetics and how I hear

playin g informa tion in the cracks, and my sound, and my set-up and all tha t, now

y oure get tin g in to me. Pla y it l ike Jac k. To be honest , h alf these [dru mm ers], th e

only reason I checked them out was because people said I sounded like them, and I had

not checked their shit out that m uch. A nd then y ou would go and check that shit and

go, Wow, okay. I see it.

Any other dru mmers youd like to menti on?

[Marv in] Smitty [Smith], for instance, is a ridiculous drumm er. He has great

double-bass technique and play ed all tha t stuff with Stev e Coleman. When I hear th e

stuff that he can do, he could easily be in a m etal band and destroy it.

Mike Smit h floored me, the du de from Suffocat ion.

Whos not in the band any more

What?!?

[Brief discus sion of Suffocation drama]

I really dug hearing him because when I started checking out the blast-beat sound, I

heard Derek Roddy and then I was researching more, and I came across Suffocation

and just heard him and I thought the shit w as progra mmed because it was so v icious.

The dyn amics of the bass drum s and the snar e and cy mbals Well, he u ses Meinl

cymbals as well, which are great instruments, and if you play them th at way , they

wil l pr oject a nd hit t he m ic. An d I just r emem ber seeing a l iv e v ideo of him a nd m y

jaw hi t the g round. I feel l ike w ha t h e did for th at gen re, Ive nev er seen an y body

Am bidextr ous wit h it too, just kill ing it for 4 5 minu tes. A nd it s not tense; it s just

relaxed. He has technique that gets it out. And Ive heard engineers talk a bout

tracking h im, and that s when you know, and they basically a re like, He is the

begin nin g a nd th e end of al l th at is bla st.

Have you ever tried playing blast beats?I have friends who love certain

elements of extreme metal , but who cant get i nto the blast beat. Its kind oflike an ant i-groove. Its static; you cant really headbang to it.

Ive used a lit tle bit of it. I used a litt le bit of it on Greg War dsPhonic Juggernautrecord.

Theres a song ca lled This Aint in Book 3, and he specifically came to me a nd said, I

wa nt y ou to use a blast beat, but I wan t y ou to man ipul ate it a ccording to my phr ases

and improvise with it as I phrase the melody. So I learned the m elody; I learned the




10/17

harmonic rhy thm. And he w as, like, Basically blast through it, but a rc it w ith the

music. A nd I said, Th ats kind of raw ! Youre sure a bout t his?!? [Laughs] And he

said, Yeah, m anI want y ou to blast!

For m e, thats why I dig it, as a technical [tool]. Ive tr ied play ing it, a nd I like play ing

it, but th e thing is, it is static and it does take endurance a nd a certain technique to

really pull it off effectively and also consistently, but I could see peoples musical

quarr el with it, because its not as musical as obviously h earing some sort of

polyrhythmic things coming from the kick and the snare and the cymbal, and

different things th at m ake me h eadbang. I think m ost people would nod their h ead to

that stuff more. Whereas the blast beat is just kind of like, youre leaning back and

y our ey es ar e bug ged out , and y our e sitt ing th ere in shock. But I like it because it s

rebellion; its a straight F y ou to the whole thing. But I think theres a technical

element about it that just floors me, because youre consistently keeping these notes on

this grid. Its not like youre just play ing some free roll until y ou run out of steam.

Your e holdin g tha t u nti l a certa in pa rt , a nd th en y ou ha v e to shift and shift , so its

technical, and I get it, but I also understand why it forces some people to lose

concentra tion, and also it gets boring. Just me personally , I cant listen to an entir e

record of blast. I hav e to hear some drummers g ive me some shit. Come on, now!

Thats why Iv e named the drum mers Ive been naming, because theyr e bringing

those technical elements, but m ixed with the a bility to lay some thing s in the pocket.

And I dont know w ha t Mike [Sm ith ] ca n do, bu t I like h im because I feel like th e sound

hes going for is clean and strong. He does his fills around the kit. He has all these

different cy mbals for different sections; hes orchestratin g in his own mu sical way

wit h the bl ast beat .

But I feel its more what t he blast beat represents, and tha ts why I said that Tony was

the first person to do it. I feel like it was more a sound that he was going for. Because he

obv iously likes the sound of a clean r oll, and to hear it oscillating like that between

snare, kick, snare, kick, and then the cy mbal th at accentu ates it, it brings this effect

to may be propel a song, or push a song to another level. Th ats why I like it, for the

effect. But as th e actual essence of your band? Tha ts rough to me, which is why I

couldnt listen to Suffocations music th e whole way through . I would listen to a few

songs, and just be sitting there like, Hes really play ing this! I hav e to think its just

the wow factor for me. But its not the same as other albums that I would listen to from

top to bottom, just beca use I know each song h as thi sChaosphere , today I could put

that shit on and let it rock from top to bottom, ev en to that littl e weird, backwards

interlude that they have at they end. You know something really epic is about to

come. The band doesnt come back in, but its like a complete backwards, or fastforwa rd of every song tha t they play ed meshing together. I thought it wa s brilliant. I

can listen to that a ll the w ay to the end, and sometimes Im ev en patient enough on

the train ride to listen through tha t static, but sometimes its annoying, an d I turn it

off.

But I feel like may be thats peoples problem with t he blast beat, th at its just techn ical

ability , and th ats tru e; its just one technique. Its like someone that can jump r eally

high and dunk the ball. Can y ou make a jum p shot? Do you hav e footwork? Can y ou

play t he post? Can y ou make free throws? Can you do a lay-up with y our left hand?

After a w hil e y oure like, Okay , y ou ca n dunk. A nd somebody th at does tha t is

obv iously someone that can jum p 45 inch es v ertically and has the windmill or

wh at ev er. Tha ts h ow I look at th e bla st beat; their legs a re ex tr emel y gift ed in h olding

this rhy thm, a nd theyv e trained their fingers and their forms and wrists just to

stay Its almost like a nerv ous twitch tha t they control. Its like a knockout punch .

Its like, you know how to do it, but can you box? But Im curious to hear Mike Smith in

another band wh ere hes forced to play some other m usic. If he has that technique, I

feel like him playin g other rh y thms and cadences would just be ridiculous, because of

the amount of power that he can produce just on that . Imagine what t hat w ould turn

into.

Do you t hink i ts possible for a single drummer t o be great at playing both

jazz and met al or heavy rock?

Yes, I think it i s possible bec au se it r equires discipline to do both . Like, th e gig [I play ed]

last night was a piano trio gig but it was in a r oom th at ha d 20 foot high ceilings. So a

drum set in there is going to obviously swallow up the piano if I played like Im play ing

wit h some r ock band. But th e constr ain t, h av ing th e proper t ools, play ing bru shesIcan play brushes and get a good sound out of these broom sticks or bundles, which

hav e some attack but giv e you a brushy sound as well, and then being able to hav e a

light sensitive touch with sticks. There are certain things that you obviously would

not do at that v olume; certain things just require a little more intensity . Just like

runn ing fast ha s more force; y oure not going t o hit somebody soft when y oure

runn ing fast. But y ou can control it; it can be contained. I think th ats the chal lenge.




11/17

Playing with Robert Glasper for all those y ears, that was the biggest chall enge is, he

likes drum s; he likes a lot of it, but h e plays the piano. And his touch isnt really that

strong, so thats also something that hes working with. So he needed me to give w hat

he wants rhy thmically and technically from the kit but be able to hav e a dynamic

rang e that wa s extremely broad with sticks, because he wants to hear tha t. So I think

its possible.

I just think the problem is that we pigeonhole ourselves and genres do it too. If a

drumm er shows up play ing with a jazz quart et and rock drumm er sees him doing it,

hes going to imm ediately th ink hes not capable of doing th is thing. Vice v ersa: If a

jazz dru mm er sees a met al dru mm er c ru shin g a t a show onsta ge w ith people moshin g

in the pit, going crazy, h es just going to immediately assume that th at drum mer does

not hav e the ability to go and do what he just did at the Va ngua rd last night or

something. Its not true; its not fucking tr ue. I think its really disrespectful to all

drumm ers that work har d. Some people just aesthetically dont play that way , so

thats wh o they are. But I think if people hav e the presence of mind to know the

nuances of a genre, th en they can play . Theres certain subtleties in play ing acoustic

music that let other m usicians feel that y oure sensitive. Theres just certain little

tricks that drummers learn all the time; its how to hit the cymbal, how to play the

snare; its knowing where th e pianissimo rang e is on the snare. Its not in the middle;

its toward th e rim. If you know these things, y oure just play ing with them. A nd you

might feel like a douche all n ight, because y oure not hitting . You might th ink,

Goddammit, a ll this light shit But then y ou get with another band wher e [the

leader] actually wants y ou to kind of play, an d he has the ability t o keep up with you

technically . And then you get into this weird area where people start say ing, Wait aminute, th ats aggressive, but its dy namic, but its rhy thmic. Those are the areas I

like because theres no way y ou can pigeonhole it.

But I think its possible [to play both]. Your subtleties change; its your decision-

making. Its like if youv e been play ing one game and then y ou hav e to go and compete

and play another gam e. Its like the athletes that play football a nd baseball, or the

athletes that play basketball an d football coming u p in high school. You can do it, but

it [depends on] y our decision-making , the t echnique that it takes to execute what that

group of musicians wants to hear. Th ats why these hybrid forms of music are perfect

for certa in drumm ers, because they can improvise but still rock out, so they feel like

they re getting both. But th ats why I feel like we wouldnt have h ad Tony Williams if

there wasnt a guy that understood music, because theres records where hes playing

strictly hi-hat. Whats that record, In a Silent Way? Time was killing; hes in the

pocket. I feel like anybodys capable of doing it. I feel like if someone has the ability tobe ferocious, th ey definit ely ha v e th e abil ity to be sensit iv e. Its ju st, h av e th ey

trained themselv es or do they w ant to do it?

Vin nie Cola iut a, hes an ex am ple of someone th at can pla y it a ll. He can play wit h a

singer; he can play in a jazz trio; he can play in a fusion band, a rock band; he can play

funk. Smitty , same type of cat. These are guy s that in my opinion have the technical

ability to pull it off. And Ive h eard people complain a bout t hem in the more sensitive

genres because they ha ve so much t o say . Okay , well, th en, so then people feel like

they want to call a drumm er that doesnt hav e a lot to say but then y oure missing out

on certain t hings. If y ou want somebody that can put it in th e fifth gear

I would love to show up one summer an d go on tour with a rock band and play my

heart out and crush, and then show up and play the Vangu ard in the fall. That would

be my quint essentia l dream . Hell , y eah ! Because it s al l m usic to me. I would pu t it al l

on the ra dio; I would listen to it all . I listen to Gonzalo Rubalcaba play solo piano, and

then I listen to Bart oksMusic for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, and then Ill turn

around and listen to Meshuggah. Why shouldnt I be able to enjoy all th at shit? Th at

means that my musical ta stebuds are diverse; thats it. I think its possible. And

any body th at say s its not, I just dont think that they ve exh austed the possibilities.

Whats your history play ing rock or met al?

I hav ent play ed metal. Ive only gotten some calls to do some rock stuff with some kind

of fringe guys. Ive done some hip-hop and R&B type of gigs with Lauryn Hill and

Meshell Ndegeocello and stuff like that. Those are, like, the biggest stages Ive played on

playin g for a slew of people, hitting h ard and being dy namic and all th at. But

playin g a r ock show in a r ock band, its something I really w ould lov e to do, and Iactually havent had any opportunity to really exhaust that, because I feel like people

call me to play complex, deep music. And Im honored! I dont want to stop playing it,

but I feel like a noth er pa rt of me ju st wa nts t o groov e an d lay int o somet hin g a nd pla y

it. And Im not say ing loud and shit. Thats not what Im say ing, because some of the

baddest m eta l drum mer s ar ent extrem ely fuck ing loud, lets be clea r, beca use th at

shit is hard! You cant play that fast if youre play ing tha t fucking loud! [Laughs] You




12/17

hav e to choose. But th ey a re strong drumm ers; they do get a big full sound.

I was in Germa ny , and I was doing a gig wit h Rudresh Mahanthappa and Bunky

Green, and the whole tech staff were all metalh eads. They were all tat ted up, all black,

boots, the ha ircuts. They wer e al l m etalheads, but they wer e cool, beca use they saw

the gear that I was using: Sonor drums and my custom snare and Meinl cy mbals.

They liked the gear because they were like, Man, it sounds good in th is situation, and

they gav e me dap. After th e show, I guess [due to] different elements that I was

playin g in m y solo, the dude walked up and say s, Man, Ive got a m etal band. I would

love to fly you over here to do stuff. Would you be down to do it? And I was just

honored, because he saw once again, Youre play ing th is jazz show, but I could tell

that y ou would be down to play a metal show if you got the chance. Would you want to

do it? And I was like, Okay. I just wanted to be with a group of cool individuals, just

real cool stuff. And also, it would be another push. Youre expanding y our repertoire;

its more techniques that y oure refining. Sometimes if you dont use those techniques,

y ou dont r efine t hem as m uch. So its one of those thin gs th at I would defin itel y like to

do more of, or just play in a real r ock situation; I lov e play ing pocket, for a ny thing. But

y ou know, well see.

I want ed to talk more about th e nuts and bolts of your drumming: the

sounds you choosethe really big, dry, precise sound of your snare and kick

and also your rhythmic feel, which reminds me more of turbo-speed

electronica t han jazz. Also, though, I was listening t o an earl ier r ecord y ou

play ed on, Robert Hursts Unrehurst, Volume 1, which was probably the most

straight forwardly jazzy t hing Id heard you do.

That is early me. That is under my dads wing an d keepin it true, but still the way

that I was hearing ev en drum sound was coming fromIm gla d you were ta lking

about turbo-speed electronica, which is the same even w ith th e metal influence, wh ich

is why I dug some of that stuff: same information just play ed faster, an d clean an d all

that. It came from the fact tha t I would hear ev en, like, Bat drum s, and the Iy is this

low You know, because it comes from the ngoma, which is three drumslow,

medium and small, a nd the low is alway s the master drumm er, because you can feel

it. Its this sense, which is why the bass and the drums hav e so much connection,

because the ba ss anc hors t he low end of th e ha rm ony and is play ing th e tonic or root.

But its the fact that y oure hearing the bottom of the chord, and same thing w ith the

kit; youre hearing the bottom pitch of the rhy thm . So it takes your brain t o where

ones going to be, but it also stimulates where youre going to nod, somehow, because

y oure hea ring th ose low frequen cies. Y ou coul d ha v e al l th is complex g oing on, but

wh en y ou figur e out w her e th at low end is That s one th ing I got from Billy Higg ins,

because I woul d listen to him a nd he al wa y s hav e th is nic e, sna ppy snar e, and he ha d

a 1 6 [bass drum], but it w as tuned low as fuck. So the 1 6 kept him out of maybe the

bass range, for pla y ing a 2 2 or 20, which migh t h av e been ev en m ore beefy or mor e

round, and might h av e got in the way , frequency -wise. So thats one thing I learned

from th at about getting some articulation.

But t hen with all th e hip-hop production and stuff that I was into, I started checking

out frequencies, and when y ou start talking to a lot of great engineers tha t mix rock

records, they a lway s talk about wh ere stuff lies in the mix. They alwa y s talk about

drumm ers that would show up with sounds that they could easily m anipulate to put it

in the mix. You could push it and ev ery thing a round that sound didnt get in the way

the overtones, the frequencies that y ou tune at.

So on that r ecord with Robert Hurst, I was play ing snare drum s that w ere 4 deep, but

then I started to get into orchestral snare drum s with ca ble snares, and I start ed

noticing that they were more articulate, more sensitive at every volume level and

unforgiving technically . It was like, Oh ma n, I suck! If you hear th e old march ing

snares, its just a gu t snare, so thats why y ou hear m ore of that t om-tom sound, but

y ou get a l itt le bit of snar e. Th e buzz of the m odern w ire m asks somet imes the actu al

stroke, so things ma y sound faster than they really are. So I started checking out

[cable snares] and then I said, Man, this sounds good when you play pocket. So I said,

Okay , let me u p the ante. So on tha t Robert Hurst record, I hadnt gotten to that y et,

and its funny that youre tal king about it, because it does sound more tra ditional in a

sense, because the information is more cross-sticks, and I was playing all this stuff that

I had been learning in college, guy s forcing m e to have th is certain sound. But the

more I got into the technical sound of the kit and wh ere it lay s in the mix, that s whyIm honored that y ou hear th at th e gear is specific, because it is. The tuning is

something that I try to do to cater to fitting it into the m ix so that the engineer a nd the

artist will say , Oh man, th ats like a v elvet cushion. And also theres the aesthetic

thing, because live, I like good-sounding bass drums and good cracking snares, and I

like to hear th e contrast: The toms just kind of fill in, an d the cy mbals, I like the

articu late sound. I used to play a lot more rivets early , because that was the Higgins




13/17

influence. A lot of pianists like shimmer. But the older I got, I just felt rivets got in the

wa y . Becau se if I wan ted to hit a cr ash, I was worr ied about somet hing sizzling out of

control. And I like dry er-sounding drum heads. If your drum s are ringing t hat m uch,

if you play a lot of notes, you cant hear them. Tha ts why a lot of rock drumm ers tune

every thing so dead, so you can hear all of those strokes, but th e response isnt alw ay s

the best, so youre working har der than y ou need to.

Im gla d you hear that [my sound is deliberate], because thats something Im still

figuring out today : how to obtain a clearer sound thats un ique and a lso something

that I feel caters to all m usics, something th at I feel will allow me to get a call from

Joni Mitchell or Steely Dan. I would love to collaborate with different types of

musicians, and th ats one thing I tried to think about also in the sound that I create

from t he drum s. I feel like thereare cert ain [drum ] sounds that make y ou feel good.

When y ou hea r a n Elv in Jones dru m kit, th eres somet hin g a bout i t; it s his snar e

sound, and his high-pitched kick and his toms, and the way that h e hits every thing,

and then you hear Bonham with this huge kick drum, but hes smacking everything

like a fucking gia nt, its like, Oh, wa it a m inutethats ridiculous! Youre hearin g

these different th ings. Both guy s hit har d, when th ey n eed to. Bonham was just

crushing extr emely hard, but h e had this loose sound. These are things that stay with

y ou; sound sta y s wit h y ou. It r eal ly does. Its w ha t m akes y ou keep a rec ord on; it s the

mix of a record. A lot of that h as to do with t he drums and h ow theyr e tuned, and also

wit h the t imbre of a ll t he oth er in strum ents. That s wh at ma kes y ou lea v e a r ecord on.

The gr eat engineering is obviously half th e battle, but most of it I feel is that th ese

musicians really get a certain sound, and thats what m akes you leave it on.

Its funny tha t y ou mention Elvin and Bonham. I feel like I always associate

their sounds in my mind. They re both really weighty , almost sluggish-

feeling drummers.

You kn ow wh at s funny is th at Ive hea rd pa ssages in Bonhams solos tha t a re dir ect

quotes of Elv in and Max. Not say ing h e sounded like them v erbatim, but its obvious

that Bonham wa s aware of these two guy s and respected them. But th en his own th ing

wit h tha t in forma tion, th is wh ole thing , coming from t he lowest floor tom all t he w ay

to the high est floor tom, this ascending sound, wh ich is more wh at a lot of horn play ers

do Whereas most drummers play in a descending fashion because it always goes from

high to low, Elv in would play ascending from low to high. Tha ts why y ou would

alway s freak out wh en y ou hear Elvin, becau se he would raise the pitches. He would

end on the snare a nd smack the shit out of it. Haynes, same thing; h e would hav e a lot

of that high-low control. Those guy s influenced a lot of how I hear th e kick-snare thing ,how they re supposed to speak in th eir own way .

Its just something about the power that both [Elvin and Bonham ] had, rest in peace,

that propelled those bands that they were in to stardom. Elvin basically pushed Trane

to superstardom. I dont care wha t nobody say s. Trane w as ridiculous; we get it. But

wit hout Elvi n Jones, y ou would not be a superstar . I dont ca re. Elv in Jones wa s the

guy that pushed you to that point. Sam e goes to what Bonham did for Zeppelin. Its a

good group: great chords, they h ad nice little bluesy th emes. But Bonham put this

sludge, this feel to it that w as just big and felt like a giant walking down th e street. You

just feel it , ev ery tim e. Th eres somet hin g to tha t. He pu shed y al l to supersta rdom. So

thats why I think about them both in that same way , because I think they both hav e

a lot of power a nd a lot of presence. A lot of musical ity too. Th ey both did. But I feel like

wh at their sounds did to th e ban d is wh at ma de th e ban d. Even thoug h a ll t he

musicians were great, it w as what t heir sound did to that.

Fortu nat ely history has been kind to both.

I think it wa s because they w ere so much of a super power, how could you contain

that? I remember th ere was an inter v iew where Ozzy said he hated to see Bonham

come jam because Bonham broke drums! [Laughs] Shit had me on the floor. He said he

loved him, but tha t guy would break drums. How do y ou break the drums?!? That g uy

wa s that mu ch of a super power, ma n. T ha ts wha t h e wa s hea rin g. And back th en,

they didnt hav e all the technology. Guy s had like two or three amps plugged into one

ax and they were just sitting up there looking pretty, and the drummer had to

essentially compete. And Bonham was like, Im g oing to make sure that people know

that w e are up here crushing. And he brought it phy sically, a nd he was able to make

tha t feel good, wh ich a lot of people cant do.

Can y ou imagine t hose two drumm ers today ? Bonham w ould succeed in rock, but Im

not sure Elvin w ould succeed in the jazz industry . We would run from that guy today ,

because m ost of the m usician s today woul dnt ha v e a soun d to compete. Back then,

Stanley Turr entine had a sound that w ould reach the bar , Eddie Lockjaw reached the

bar , Tr ane rea ched th e bar .




14/17

Weve t alked a lot about jazz and met al, but we hav ent gotten int o the long

tradition of music that combines those two aesthetics. Do you t hink t hat

those kinds of fusions are worthwhile?

Sometimes the testosterone element of it, we g et awa y from playing some real

classic Jimi Hendrix played g ood ballads. We talk a bout Tr ane an d Zeppelin; they all

played g ood ballads. And now I feel like the tech nical elements, being complex w ith

y our c ompositions, h as taken aw ay from people bei ng abl e to be mel odic, and say

heartfelt statements. Because we all mourn; w eve a ll lost someone special; we all

hopefully hav e loved someone. Being able to tap into tha t a little bit just eases the

playin g field to make th ings more palatable. And I think sometimes with th ese

hy brids, we move away from things being obtainable. Im not saying dumb down; Im

saying giv e something that inv okes that emotion. I think thats something that

happens even at metal shows. People go to get hit hard, but I feel like some of the best

metal bands hav e some of those songs that break down a little bit. They migh t giv e

y ou a m inu te of it. Or m ay be a c ouple bea ut iful chord progr essions and t hey go bac k to

the v icious shit.

That kind of goes back to your question of why is Metallica more popular

than Slayer? In the end, Metall ica has t he more dynamic songs. As far as

fusion goes, I always think of early Mahavishnu as the band that was able to

really capture both t he grit and the beauty.

For m e, the gu y that made me th ink tha t it w as possible was Miles. Miles had theability to play a ballad and play something serenading better th an m ost of the people

of his generations; he was better tha n some vocalists. But he embra ced the drum s; he

wa nted the mu sic to kic k ass. But th en h e woul d imm ediat ely take cont rol a nd out of

nowhere go into some ballad. When y ou watch his liv e performa nces, thats one of the

first things I noticed. Right after this happens, thishappens. It migh t be burnin, and

then itll come down to a groov ing tem po that s so bad, and then h e takes it up a notch

and then back to a ballad and then takes you out on a nice groov e. And the next thing

y ou know, y ouv e ha d an exper ienc e. I feel like th at s wh at gr eat ban ds do; they take

y ou on jour ney s.

Thats why I like ObZenso much , because theres so much shit on that record that

brea ks down, an d y oure just lik e, Whoo! Becau se those gu y s ar e gr eat gu ita rist s. I

think tha ts the best way to do it, to bring th e beauty a nd the aggr ession together. I

draw from martia l arts with my craft. Its about being smooth and technical at t hesame time. When y ou become offensive, its because y oure defending y ourself. And

y oure supposed to look good wh en y ou pra cti ce. T ha ts w hy so many th ing s from t he

Asia n cu ltu re h av e infl uen ced me beca use ther e is th is dy na mic of being a ble to chop

somebodys head off in th e most beautiful way . They sit there and pra ctice the perfect

sword swing. It looks beautiful; it sounds beautiful; it has the perfect stroke, in order to

cut y our head off though. But t hey re spending hours and h ours to make it look perfect

and look good, so that when it comes time to kill someone, its a beautiful kill. So if we

hav e that perspective in m usic, well be more deadly . Some people are just about the

blood; they re not about t he bea ut y .

I wanted to get back to electronica, which we touched on earlier.

It influenced me a lot. I was noticing th at it w as a lot of drum br eaks and things that

y ouv e hea rd sped up. So it w as like, Oh, y ou ju st ta ke rudim ents and speed them up

to the 32n d where y oud been doing th e 16 th. The duple effect. It was something I was

already starting to do any way with r hy thms. So then I started studying Boards of

Canada, Photek, Squarepusher, Plaid, Venetian Snares. I was, like, Wow, these sounds

are thing s that ar e hard to execute as cleanly because its a [ma chine], but if a

hum an being can become a machine, th at wa s the fixation, was being able to make

my hands and my body m ove like a machine. An d then getting th ose sounds,

experimenting with different kinds of hats and cr acked cym bals and splashes on the

snare. Which are things that people used to do around different neighborhoods to get,

like, clap sounds. And then I started to see guys like Johnny Rabb getting a lot of love

for play ing dru m & bass.

It wasnt like, Okay, this is the music Im going to do. I just liked the sound of the

informa tion and felt like it reminded me of almost wh at w as probably the contrastwh en Ch ar lie Par ker cam e on th e scene a nd sta rt ed play ing inform at ion in double

time, and very clean and articulate, like, Man, he just played my shit back to me

twice as fast and th en put some other shit on top of it. So the element that I grew up

in, this competitive drum mer element, it was kind of that same mentality . That ty pe

of mindset is what led me to appreciate electronica. And just how cr eative t hey would

be wi th forms, an d how t hey wer ent so fixat ed on 1 6, 8, 32 bar s. Ever y th ing wa s




15/17

more open. It was m ore about taking these sounds and th ese textures and creat ing

them. Tha t was more impressiv e to me than the rhy thms itself. It was more about

how they put songs together, morphed these sounds and textures together.

Electronica has been as important t o the hands as metal has been to the kick. Its

funny how these two modern genr es that came along ar e essentially a lmost the same

rhy thmic informa tion that cam e before us but sped up. Are our brains now forcing us

to play informa tion faster and cleaner within t he same grid, to be able to play that

informa tion twice as fast, or triple time? Some of these metal gu y s are play ing

ridiculous tempos, effortless, at like 2 00. That s incredible. There were ma y be only a

couple guy s that migh tv e been able to execute tha t 20 y ears ago; now its standard.

Its an honor to be able to play with [people like Steve Lehman and Rudresh

Mahan thappa] and try to advance y ourself to a certain point tha t y ou didnt even

know was possible, to get to that mach ine level, w hen y ou feel like youre literall y a

mach ine, where somebody could press Play on you. Its fun, man.

Do you ever t alk a bout metal with other jazz musicians?

No, only t he guy s that ar e very open-minded. I think some people think th at m etal is

actually simplistic because of its harmonic density, because its not as dense. So I feel

like a lot of musicians look at it as just a drum mers hav en. Theyr e like, Oh yeah,

y ou dru mm ers l ike tha t. Or [Nerdy voice], Oh y eah, I liked metal w hen I was in high

school. A lot of people say th at. But I think t he reason why I leaned toward liking it a

little more is that I just respected what was being executed on the kit. I feel like so

many people would talk about the word musicality , and it alway s meant playingsomething in a very sensitive, light way . And thats not what musicality m eant to

me; musicality meant play ing wh ats needed for the moment, and if it means that y ou

need to play something sensitive and light, cool; if it means you need to whip ass, cool.

But w hy is it that th e person that ca nt ev en do what s needed for th e music when y ou

need to go aggressive, why isnt that called unm usical? [Laughs] Thats not called

called unmusical. [Mock-serious] Tha ts still musical, because he couldnt get th ere.

It doesnt make any sense. So these are the same people that dissociate themselves from

the mu sic because they feel like what these musicians are doing, th eyre not working

towards being m usical.

So theres something unmu sical about hav ing good time? Iv e played with musicians

that ar e talking about music and every thing being mu sical, and the quar ter note is a

fucking ca tastrophe. Its just simple! Just click-click. And th en y ou do something like a

dotted-quar ter pattern against it and the t ime starts to shift. And y oure like,Musicality seems to be subjectiv e here. I feel like its harder to talk a bout t oday still

because people look at y ou as if y oure cr azy , or t hey look at y ou as if y ou wa nt to play

aggressively and loudly all the time. Thats not the case! Im just basically saying, I

appreciate the fact tha t these [metal] guy s are executing in a very proper fashion.

They re clean; they ha v e their songs; they ha v e a message, some of them, and they

mean it. Im for that , ra ther t han somebody w hos half-assing and pussy footing

around, and thats called extremely musical, But when y oure asking them to do

something th at is musical in a very strong way , they ca nt even step up to the plate? I

feel like musical ca me to mean someone that couldnt get to any kind of meat and

potatoes in their play ing, any kind of aggression or density. Th e guy that creates

density , its like, Oh, hes a good drummer; h es technical. Why isnt he musical?

Your e just mad becau se hes a ble to do more, and h e migh t pu sh y ou to do more. Some

people cant deal with th e fact that somebody could push them ev en further. Theres

people that r espect it from a rhy thm ic standpoint, but most people just think its a

bun ch of satanists and y elling like buffoons, an d th ey feel it s for hi gh school people.

Whats your t ake on satanism in metal? Did you ever pay a ny att enti on to

that?

I was raised in a v ery religious family . its more about th e congregationthe unity

and the concept of church . But Im not into any titles about wh o has what r eligion. I

feel like that s half the problems in the world today. I dont feel any way about it at a ll.

When I show up a t chu rc h a nd m y mom wa nts m e to play , I just play . Its ju st a social

thing. I feel like theyre a ctually one and the same: When people show up to that metal

concert, th eyre showing up to congrega te. Thats chur ch for them, to me. They show

up and express themselves, and the world has got a foot on their neck; somebodys

oppressing th em; they dont like the fact th at th is is happening and th ats happening.And they come t o tha t conc ert to let i t out ; th at s wh y people mosh. Sam e phy sical

hum an r eaction; I think its directly connected. Were all h uma ns. So if people in the

church want to shout and dance, that was a social haven for the African-American

community because there was no other place wh ere y ou could be free and talk freely

about stuff because y ou would be on a fucking tr ee tomorrow. So thats where y ou

went to talk an d expr ess yourself and let t he st ress of the worl d leav e y our shoulders.




16/17

So now, okay , we m ight not end up on tr ees as often but we still n eed a place.

Any body t ha ts pla y ing mu sic, y oure play ing a lan gu ag e th at ev ery body

understands. Theres not a cultur e on the planet that doesnt understand rhy thm a nd

notes and v ibration; they a ll understand it; its physics. So to me, thats my religion,

playin g these damn drum s, because I know that I can step into any situation and

somebody is g oing to feel wh at i t is. A good person is a good person, an d somebody w hos

malicious is malicious. So judging somebody because they put beads around their

wr ist a nd ch ant, or th ey put beads aroun d their neck an d pra y , it doesnt m ean

anything to me. Were all reaching for the same thing, enlightenment and peace.

There are religious ceremonies ev en in Africa wh ere there are hu man sacr ifices,

anima l sacrifices. Its a certa in thing thats been in hum an beings for a long time:

hum an sacrifice, anim al sacrifice, blood, the drinking of it, th e preserv ation of it,

wh at it m ean s. I just t hin k when people think about wh at sata nism is, it s just a

counter to what you see If you see people that are supposed to be doing right by you

killing more kids and more families, its only going to make y ou say, w hats the

counter reality ? More so than t he counter perspectiv e is the liberation. So when y ou

brea k aw ay from t he confinem ent and find fr eedom an d peace, ma y be people migh t

call you a rebel. Thats why they always say counterculture. Whenever I would hear

those [metal] bands, I wouldnt actu ally go in that dark way ; I wouldnt get scared.

Unless See some of the audiences were [behaving ] in a w ay that I knew tha t me

showing u p, just who I was, it was going to be may hem. But wha t I saw w as a certain

wil lin gn ess to try and be someth ing th at y ou wer ent seeing ev ery day wit h folks. You

wer e seeing people that wer e liv ing th is perfect li fe, doing wh at they wer e told. A ndthis group of people were just finally saying, No, I dont agree; it doesnt make sense.

And wh at s wr ong w ith people that say th at? Because most of the tim e, it doesnt m ake

sense.

That was the m essage I would get from the m usic. In high school, I went to a Catholic

school. And I remember my religion teacher In Catholic schools, they talk m ore

about Satan than any thing else. Its deep. I went to Protestant schools coming up in

elementary school and junior hig h; we never talked about Satan like that. Went to a

Catholic school; ev ery single year we would hav e an entire alm ost month dedicated to

Satan[Laughs]. Learning ever y thing, t alking about actu al occurrences of people that

gav e their life over to Satan and feeling his touch. Ive nev er heard any thing like that

in any other Protestant school. Ive ev en talked to other friends who went to norma l

Protestant schools. But Catholic schools? Now the academics were great; the women

wer e gr eat ; lots of All -Amer ica n ath letes in a nd out of ther e.

But it was deep, and I was checking it out, an d I remember this one religion teach er,

she loved me, like as a person. She would come to some of my performances; she was a

genuine supporter of who I was, and I remember she saw me really paying attention

closely to some of the details of Satanic sy mbols and certain th ings. They show y ou

shit! I mean, they ve got it right th ere. If you want to learn any thing about it, just go

to a Catholic school. I said, Oh, this is interesting. A nd she said, Be careful. That

wa s her e th ing : Be carefu l, because y ou could div e int o it. Think about it. So they re

studying the adversary, but if y ou study the adv ersary , y ou hav e to be careful; thats

wh at they teach y ou. Ev ery sing le y ear , a lm ost by the mont h, dedica ted to lea rn ing

about demonic possession. As you got older, you got deeper into talking about more

matu re things. When they star t y ou off freshman y ear, y ou learn all the symbols. Its

crazy, right?

So when I started checking this stuff out, I just wa s sitting there like, Okay,

interesting. This is just a counter thing. So when I went to Lithua nia, th ere was a

museum dedicated to Satan. An d I remember say ing, You guy s hav e got a museum

dedicated to Satan? And y ou know wh at th ey t old me? I found it very interesting.

They said, We dont look at Satan as evil; w e just look at Satan a s someone that y ou

hav e to outsmart . An d I said, But y ouve got a wh ole museum dedicated to him.

Ev ery picture, every bust, every thing in th at mu seum was dedicated to his existence

and his evolution throughout th e minds of huma n beings.

2 years ago notes (20)

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Emra Islek [Abridged version hosted by Invisible Oranges; longer cut below.] Like

previous HMB subject Craig Taborn,...

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This is hands down one of the best interv iews Ive read about m etal, ja zz, a nd

drumming in general. I havent felt this...

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last week r e-reading old DTM posts,... new Heav y -Metal Bebop post

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Heavy Metal Be-bop #8 Damión Reid