Hartley, Charles | Testimony transcript

Transcript of the Testimony of Charles Hartley

Date: December 5, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: December 18, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

Charles Hartley In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page 1

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

CHARLES HARTLEY

Taken on Thursday, December 5, 2013, from 10:32 a.m. to

10:58 a.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson,

LLC, 626 S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper,

State of Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.

Charles Hartley

In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]


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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn

Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by

SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and

afterwards reduced into typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A. . . . . . . . 6-12

Advice of Rights

Note: Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 CHARLES HARTLEY

2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

3 testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

5 Q. I'm going to read you this Advice of Rights

6 form. "I wish to advise you that you are

7 being questioned as part of an official

8 investigation by the City of Joplin. You

9 will be asked questions related and

10 specifically directed to the performance of

11 your official duties of fitness for office.

12 You are entitled to all the rights and

13 privileges guaranteed by the laws of the

14 Constitution of the State and the

15 Constitution of the United States, including

16 the right not to be compelled to incriminate

17 yourself. I further wish to advise you that

18 if you refuse to testify or to answer

19 questions relating to the performance of your

20 official duties, you will be subject to

21 departmental charges, which could result in

22 your dismissal from your official duties. If

23 you do answer these statements may be used

24 against you in relation to subsequent

25 department charges, but not in any subsequent


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1 criminal proceedings. I have read and fully

2 understand the Advice of Rights as it appears

3 above. This information has also been read

4 to me prior to answering any questions." Mr.

5 Hartley, did you read that and did you

6 understand that Advice of Rights?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Would you execute that for me, sir? Today is

9 the 5th of December. Print your name above

10 your signature.

11 A. (Witness complies)

12 Q. Mr. Hartley, have you executed Exhibit #A

13 that I have read to you and you've read to

14 yourself?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And it's marked Exhibit #A, is it not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Mr. Hartley, how long have you worked

19 for the City?

20 A. Slightly under 40 years.

21 Q. 40 years?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. What do you do?

24 A. I'm currently the title officially is

25 Engineering Tech. It's an engineering


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1 department position, currently involved in

2 outdoor construction inspection.

3 Q. Did you have anything to do with the pool

4 that was constructed, I believe it was in one

5 of the parks?

6 A. In Schifferdecker, yes, I was.

7 Q. And that pool, what department was that

8 under?

9 A. Would have been under Parks as far as funding

10 and managing.

11 Q. I believe that pool was scheduled to be

12 opened on an arbitrary date by the City

13 Manager, is that right?

14 A. Yes, we put opening date that swim season

15 which was June 1st, right in there.

16 Q. June 1st of what year?

17 A. 2012.

18 Q. Schifferdecker was your department manager?

19 A. Would have been Parks Manager which is under

20 Public Works, yes.

21 Q. And that would have been under City Manager

22 Rohr?

23 A. Yes, I believe so.

24 Q. And tell me that arbitrary date of June 1st.

25 Was the area prepared and ready in accordance


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1 with that June 1st?

2 A. We missed the June 1st mainly because of

3 weather conditions that winter that kept us

4 from pouring some of the concrete.

5 Q. Legitimate reasons?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the City Manager was angry about that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And tell me what he told you to do?

10 A. I don't remember him specifically telling me

11 something to do, me personally, but through

12 the rumor mill for lack of a better word he

13 was pushing very hard that it was absolutely

14 necessary that it would be open by that date

15 strictly as I take it from a P.R. point of

16 view. We'd been promising this pool for years

17 and we've been promising it next spring and

18 now we can't deliver so it's going to make us

19 look bad and ultimately the City Manager.

20 Q. So what did he do to try to meet that

21 deadline? He took shortcuts?

22 A. No, no, there were no shortcuts taken at all.

23 It was mostly just verbal stuff. We have to

24 do it, we have to do it, we have to do it.

25 And of course the return conversation would


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1 be I can't make it happen, I can't control

2 the weather, I can't make these people work

3 24 hours a day, this and that. So there

4 weren't any forceful moves in that project to

5 cut corners or anything like that.

6 Q. Tell me what department chief did you work

7 under most of your 40 years? More than one,

8 I'm assuming?

9 A. Yeah, several.

10 Q. Who was the last one?

11 A. The last one was Jack Schaller.

12 Q. How do you spell that?

13 A. S-C-H-A-L-L-E-R.

14 Q. Jack Schaller. Have you ever heard the City

15 Manager abuse Schaller?

16 A. I guess not personally, just I talked to Jack

17 a lot, we were fairly close, and I could tell

18 when something was working on him and I go,

19 you know, are you okay? He'd go, well, you

20 know, he's been talking with Mark and he's

21 wanting to do - Jack was smart, he never

22 would be specific, but he would always tell

23 him that it's the same thing, I want you to

24 do this, I can't really make that happen, you

25 have to make that happen and you have to make


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1 it by a certain date. It always got back to,

2 I heard the phrase myself several times from

3 Mark, it is not you or a career, it is mine.

4 So it all got back, always went back to Mark

5 and how it's going to affect his view from

6 the public and his career.

7 Q. So whether or not it was feasible or not

8 there would be abuse if Jack or some other

9 employee under Mark Rohr would not move

10 mountains to achieve what his desires were?

11 A. I think there was always that implied, what's

12 the word, intimidation.

13 Q. Intimidation?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. This is real, this intimidation?

16 A. Well, yes.

17 Q. What kind of environment is that to work

18 under?

19 A. It sucks.

20 Q. Pretty bad, huh?

21 A. To put it in legal terms, yes, sir.

22 Q. Had you ever had a City Manager that you

23 worked under be like that before?

24 A. No, this City Manager, it's not the first one

25 I've been up against fairly often, but


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1 typically before they were isolated somewhere

2 in their office, maybe it's because of the

3 years I've gotten in and the projects I've

4 been involved in I'm closer to that upper

5 management part, but I don't recall one

6 that's ever been so intimidating.

7 Q. It was actually abusive, would you say?

8 A. That's I think a strong word.

9 Q. Certainly the environment to work under is

10 not a healthy one?

11 A. Right. Can I relate another story to you?

12 Q. Sure. Please do.

13 A. In '06 I believe is when we moved into the

14 Newman Building after about a year's worth of

15 work in there. Our Finance Director at that

16 time, who was just a sweetheart of a lady,

17 she soon quit after that and I found her on

18 the fourth floor back in the break room one

19 day and she was standing there looking out

20 the window and she was crying. And of course

21 I asked her, you know, is there something

22 that any of us can do to help with whatever

23 is wrong, and she goes, no, she had just left

24 Mark's office again and he had I guess

25 verbally lambasted her for not doing


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1 something and he had indicated to her that he

2 would like to force her out. I don't know if

3 that's the exact words, but that was the

4 gist. And she was crying because she did not

5 want to leave. Didn't intend to leave. She

6 didn't go into specifics.

7 Q. What was this girl's name?

8 A. Gosh, if you hadn't asked me I could have

9 just rattled it right off.

10 Q. Well, think about it.

11 A. I'll think of it here in a minute. But

12 anyway she had no intention of quitting, but

13 within a month I'd say she had turned in her

14 resignation and she left.

15 Q. This has happened more than one time during

16 the years you've watched Mark as City

17 Manager?

18 A. That's the most personal time I've seen it

19 with another employee other than through Jack

20 and David Hertzberg, because they were always

21 just totally stressed when they came back

22 from Mark's office. I'm sure they got the

23 it's not your career, it's my career speech.

24 I'm still trying to think of her name.

25 Cooper was her last name.


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1 Q. Finance Director Cooper?

2 A. Yes. It started with a D. I'm almost there.

3 Q. What else can you relate to me about these

4 matters?

5 A. Oh, let me think a moment. I had one dealing

6 with Mark personally in his office that had

7 to do with the depot, downtown depot, and I

8 think there are still plans somewhere to turn

9 that into a ring area, a public area to again

10 try to draw more into the downtown. And I

11 designed a layout per Mark's story of what he

12 wanted to do that, a certain building, a

13 certain number of buildings, a certain number

14 of parking spots, and had to take into

15 account the terrain down there with the

16 viaduct in the way and how to do all the

17 traffic and this and that, so I presented him

18 with two or three options, you know, put the

19 building here, here is where I think it fits

20 the best. And he goes, no, that is not the

21 vision I have, do it again. Okay, yes, sir.

22 And I never did come up with one that he said

23 that's it.

24 Q. He didn't give you any specific instructions

25 then, huh?


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1 A. He kept telling me to put the building here,

2 I want the building here, I want it here and

3 here, I want a bridge between them and I want

4 it to face this way, but I could not design

5 it that way within reasonable costs to make

6 it happen. He never did okay anything I did

7 and it's since been let out to some other

8 firm as far as I know. But again he told me

9 that it is not my career, it's his career

10 that is on the line and I need to do that.

11 Q. Was his position that money was not a

12 restraint, the cost factor was not a

13 restraint, it was just aesthetics? Is that

14 his position?

15 A. He never did say it was a money thing

16 specifically, it was always to me it was just

17 a P.R., a public perception of him. He would

18 never discuss money with me, no.

19 Q. Well, what I meant was, his designs, he

20 didn't care about the economic costs of these

21 things, it was just the aesthetics that were

22 important in the design work?

23 A. I couldn't say honestly whether that's true

24 or not.

25 Q. All right. What other matters do you have


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1 for me?

2 A. I guess the most recent was our cleansing on

3 the fourth floor.

4 Q. Tell me about that.

5 A. With David Hertzberg, Steve Cope, and

6 ultimately Jack Schaller. Again I don't have

7 the complete insights to personnel files and

8 personnel matters so it may - I'm sure there

9 are things I can't factor in. But what I saw

10 constantly was David stressed out trying to

11 meet Mark's deadlines, Mark's commandments.

12 I saw Jack constantly fighting maybe even

13 with David to try to keep things from

14 happening that we could not afford or

15 shifting of funds to do this one in front of

16 this one. Those were just things I would see,

17 but as far as dollar amounts and where they

18 went and why they happened I don't know. I

19 just felt knowing those three men that it was

20 contrite, the whole situation with Steve Cope

21 being terminated, David being demoted, and

22 Jack ultimately could not deal with Mark

23 anymore, specifically saying that to me, he

24 could not work where things like this were

25 happening and ultimately our floor has just


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1 --

2 Q. Those were all professional engineers,

3 weren't they?

4 A. I don't know if Steve Cope.

5 Q. The other two were?

6 A. But Jack and David were, yes.

7 Q. So do we want to call this creating a hostile

8 work environment? Is that what we want to

9 call this for these three guys that that's

10 what he did?

11 A. That is probably somewhere I don't really

12 want to go.

13 Q. I mean you can use whatever word you want. I

14 mean certainly what you're saying is it was

15 stressful for these three?

16 A. It was stressful.

17 Q. Stressful on anybody around?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you believe that it was proper supervision

20 methods?

21 A. Not in my view, no.

22 Q. And that's what you meant by contrite, to get

23 rid of these three guys?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know why he would have that reason to


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1 do that? Do you have any answers?

2 A. I don't have specifics other than it's his

3 career. He didn't want to play ball I guess

4 a hundred percent.

5 Q. And do what he wanted to do?

6 A. I'm assuming, yes.

7 Q. And as a result the Engineering Department is

8 pretty well decimated?

9 A. Yes, we had two other engineers - let me back

10 up. We have three engineers, one being new,

11 Nick Heatherly who is the new Public Works

12 Director. The other two engineers I know are

13 both seriously looking because they don't

14 want to follow-up in the same mess.

15 Q. What are those gentlemen's names?

16 A. Dave Hunt.

17 Q. Hunt?

18 A. Uh-huh, and Dan Johnson.

19 Q. And they're professional engineers, also?

20 A. Dan is. Dave is I don't know if they call it

21 EI --

22 Q. Engineer in Training?

23 A. Yes, that's it.

24 Q. EIT.

25 A. EIT, yes.


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1 Q. But neither really want to continue under

2 this kind of stressful environment?

3 A. That's correct. And Dave has told me since

4 the day he was here he intended to be here

5 the rest of his career. He came here with the

6 intent to stay with the City.

7 Q. How long has Dave been there?

8 A. Dave has been there 3 years, maybe 4. He's a

9 fairly young guy. Looked at long-term

10 planning and the City is kind of where he

11 wanted to stay.

12 Q. Dan Johnson also has been --

13 A. Never heard him say one way or the other.

14 Q. How long has he been with the City?

15 A. Dan has been there since about '05.

16 Q. And you're certain these men are trying to

17 leave this environment?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Anything else you can tell me? Did you

20 understand the method that was used at the

21 newspaper saying that Cope basically was --

22 A. A thief.

23 Q. That's your words, yeah. I mean that's

24 basically what they said, wasn't it?

25 A. He and David, both, yes.


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1 Q. And that was a press release from Mark?

2 A. Was it?

3 Q. That's what I'm asking you.

4 A. I don't recall who released it, but I'm sure

5 it had to be approved by Mark. I'm pretty

6 sure everything that goes in the paper has to

7 go through Mark as far as public relations.

8 Q. This wasn't really a matter of being a thief.

9 Can you explain what the real problem was

10 there?

11 A. As I understand it the funding that they

12 claimed is missing was just uncollected funds

13 as part of a fee on building permits. And

14 over the last 10 or 11 years it just has not

15 been collected and it accumulated up to

16 whatever that dollar amount was.

17 Q. That was true before they even took these

18 positions?

19 A. That would be correct, yes.

20 Q. So it was something about the software system

21 that was being used and they didn't

22 understand how to put the information in?

23 A. My understanding.

24 Q. Been a longstanding problem?

25 A. Obviously, yes. In their own words it's been


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1 11 years so my point in conversations was how

2 does it go 11 years going through audits

3 every year and we get stellar audits and we

4 get a Finance Director that gets plaques on

5 our wall because everything is perfect, but

6 yet when something comes up not perfect it's

7 nobody's fault but the guy at the bottom. I

8 just found that odd. And Cope, if you knew

9 David --

10 Q. David?

11 A. David Hertzberg. The guy, he wouldn't cuss

12 if you put a match to his ear. He is so --

13 Q. Very professional?

14 A. He's very professional, he's very Christian,

15 and he's very conscious of his Christianity.

16 He will not say a bad thing about anybody. I

17 mean he wouldn't say a bad thing about Mark.

18 You could tell he was about ready to bust

19 into tears. So to accuse David of being

20 negligent in funding and handling funds

21 that's just ridiculous. He always seemed to

22 be the scapegoat in every newspaper story,

23 Dave Hertzberg, the Public Works Director let

24 this go for ten years, and that is not true.

25 Q. Are you glad to be at a position of


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1 retirement?

2 A. Absolutely.

3 Q. You don't want to be in this environment

4 either?

5 A. No, I am fortunate to be right at retirement

6 age. If it wasn't this environment I would

7 probably go another three years until I'm 65,

8 but I'm fortunate enough with the City

9 pension and other stuff I can walk away from

10 it, gladly walk away from it. Everybody goes

11 you'll be bored to death. I doubt it, but it

12 doesn't matter, I don't have to get up and

13 come here every day.

14 Q. So you don't look forward to coming to work

15 like you used to before Mark was here?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you believe Mark is the cause of this

18 environment? No doubt in your mind about

19 that?

20 A. Again I see the stress in David and Jack and

21 others --

22 Q. And yourself?

23 A. And myself because their stress trickles down

24 to the whole floor, fourth floor, our

25 department, so I guess that, yes, it comes


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1 from upper management styles.

2 Q. And you haven't really witnessed that

3 throughout any time during your 40 years

4 except for this guy, Mark Rohr?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Okay. Do you have anything else that you

7 want to tell me? Let me ask you this.

8 You're aware that there's a dispute that - I

9 was asked to come down here and talk about

10 the dispute between the Board members.

11 You're aware of that, aren't you?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Do you have an opinion as to is Mark

14 contributing to that dispute or do you just

15 not know?

16 A. I know all the Councilmen fairly well, but

17 I'm not really in the inner circle to know

18 what their conversations are. I know there

19 are ones that don't get along with Mark and

20 there are some that support him.

21 Q. So to that issue Mark does play a role in it

22 to the best of your knowledge?

23 A. I would assume so, yes, sir. He is the head

24 seat.

25 Q. Has favorites and not favorites?


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1 A. Yeah, that's politics in general, I'm sure.

2 Q. Okay. Good luck on your retirement.

3 A. I just thought of something, if I may.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Harold McCoy who was a long time Public Works

6 Director here, he started basically in the

7 same position I started in which was general

8 laborer with the city crews in the summer.

9 He worked his way up through school,

10 engineering degree and became Public Works

11 Director. Extremely intelligent man,

12 extremely fair man. He was not always the

13 most kind man. He would get in your face if

14 you needed it, which was fine if you needed

15 it, but he would back you up. If you did

16 something wrong it didn't really bother him,

17 you were trying to do something so, you know,

18 if you're not doing anything you're not going

19 to make mistakes. He did a lot for the City.

20 He knew probably anything you wanted to ask

21 about the City. If you had a question about

22 a catch basin somewhere on the other side he

23 knew exactly where it was and what it was.

24 He designed a lot of it. But as soon as Mark

25 got here and Mark laid down whatever marching


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1 orders he was laying out for his staff Harold

2 left. He says I am not going to go through

3 this because Mark was going to go a complete

4 backwards direction from where Harold had

5 taken everything over his 40 year career.

6 And he left and went to Allgeier-Martin and

7 specifically because of Mark's point of

8 views.

9 Q. You consider Harold - he was a part-time City

10 Manager, too, wasn't he?

11 A. Yes, he was. That's correct.

12 Q. So you consider the loss of Harold and his

13 knowledge directly attributable to according

14 to him from Mark's actions?

15 A. Absolutely, yes, sir.

16 Q. You hate to lose assets like that.

17 A. You do. And I understand there's personality

18 conflicts always, but it just seemed odd to

19 me that a guy would just quit what he loved,

20 his career that he loved, he loved the City

21 and just walk away from it knowing that not

22 only was it a personality conflict, but it

23 was a general where he wanted to take the

24 City was 40 years backwards and Harold had

25 worked his whole career to get it here. It


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1 just did not set with Harold at all.

2 Q. Now that you've seen these other engineers go

3 through a similar situation I mean you can

4 understand Harold's position better now than

5 even then, I suppose?

6 A. I suppose. I knew Harold fairly well and we

7 still communicate some, so I knew him better

8 than I know these gentlemen. I just knew

9 where his heart was at, too.

10 Q. Anything else that you want to tell me?

11 A. I can't think of anything offhand.

12 Q. I certainly appreciate your contribution and

13 I'll include it in my report. As it is we

14 try to keep everything confidential so try to

15 keep what we say in here to us.

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Thank you for coming in, sir.

18 A. Not a problem. If you need me just call me.

19 Q. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

20

21 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)

22

23

24


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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 5th

day of December, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was

examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn

Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set

out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith

returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

Documents

Hartley, Charles | Testimony transcript