1

SecretFeministAgendaTranscript

Episode4.30ThinkingIntergenerationallyTowardaFuturewithEugeniaZuroski

December4,2020

HannahMcGregor: 00:00:00 [ThemeMusic:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]Hi,I'mHannahMcGregorandthisisSecretFeministAgenda.AndI'vegotawonderfulconversationtosharewithyoutoday.ButbeforeIdothatIwanttosaygoodbye.ThisisthefinalepisodeofSecretFeministAgendainitscurrentiteration.Italkedatgreaterlengthinthelastminisodeonsayingnoaboutwhy[Laughs]it'sultimatelyforthebestthatthisprojectiscomingtoanendinitscurrentform.Andofcourse,I'vealsotalkedabouthowI'mimaginingadifferentkindoflifeforthiswork,particularlythinkingabouthowSecretFeministAgendamightbecomeanopportunitytomentorotherscholarswhoareinterestedintryingtheirhandatthiskindofwork.ButasitcurrentlyexistsasaspacewhereIexperimentintheuseofpodcastingtoworkthroughmyownideasandtoengagewithnewideasviaconversationswithotherfeminists,theprojectis,isdone.

HannahMcGregor: 00:01:20 AndIfeellikethere'salotofthingsIcouldsaytowrapthingsuptoday,butasIwasre-listeningtothisconversationandeditingit,somethingreallystuckouttome,whichwasthesoundofmyowndisillusionmentwiththeuniversityasaninstitution.Andwhilethatdisillusionmentabsolutelyholdsinstitutionalcritiqueoftheuniversityandhowitworksisreallyfundamentaltomyownpracticeasafeministscholar.Ialsowantto,Isuppose,haveamomentofoptimismheretosaythatmakingthispodcastandengaginginconversationswiththemanybrilliant,fascinatingpeoplewhohavejoinedasguestsandgettingtoknowthelistenersonsocialmediaorthroughthereviewshasgoneasignificantwaytonotonlymaintainingmypassionfortheworkthatIgettodoasanacademicandanintellectual,buthasinjectedanewsenseofpurposeandvalueintothatwork.

HannahMcGregor: 00:02:25 SecretFeministAgendahasbeentheprojectthathasmovedmefrombeingagraduatestudentintobeingamoreestablishedacademic.Youknow,I'mgoingupfortenurenextyear.Iamemergingnolonger.IsupposeonemightevensayIhaveemerged.AndthispodcasthasbeenthethingthathelpedmovemethroughthatprocessandIthinkwillcontinuetoinformall

2

oftheworkthatIdogoingforward.IwasrecentlyreadingsomecommentsonTwitterbyGraceLavery,awonderfulscholarofVictorianstudieswhorecentlywontheNorthAmericanVictorianStudiesAssociationAwardforBestBookforherbookQuaint,Exquisite.I'llputalinkintheshownotesasperusual,butshesharedhercommentsonwinningthisawardonTwitter.AndIfoundthecommentsreallymoving,particularlyintermsofhowshewasthinkingaboutthevalueofwhatwedoashumanityscholars.GraceLaveryisnotonetowaxpoeticalabouttheuniversalvalueofthehumanities.

HannahMcGregor: 00:03:29 She's—well,she'salotsmarterthanthat.Butshehadthistosayabouthumanisticwork.Shesaid,"Theworkwedoisreallytwokindsofwork,whichwetoooftensynthesizeintoasingleactivity.Humanisticstudy,comprisesdiscoveryandinterpretation.Findsomethingoutthatnobodyknewbeforeandsaysomethinginterestingaboutit.Theseskillsaresodifferentinfact,thatweoftenprefertodojustoneortheothertoexhibitsomethingunknownwithminimumeditorializingorrapaciouslytotheorizematerialalreadywellunderstood.Theformerleadstowhatwemightreactivatinganowquitedeadpolemiccallpositivisthistoricism.ThelatterleadstoastrangeinflationwherebyliteracyintherealistnovelwhetherGothicorVictorianOrientalismissomehowpositionedasapoliticalendinitself.AsthoughasmartenoughreadingofWutheringHeightsreallymightendcapitalism.Itwon't.Sothequestionis,doweadjustourgoalsorourmethods?Iproposethelatter.JonathanEburnehassuggestedthatoneofthegreatmeritsofourprofessionisthatevenwhenwehaveareallybaddayatwork,nobodydies.Ifindthiskindofdeflationarythinkingmorerevolutionarythanalmostanythingelse."

HannahMcGregor: 00:04:48 AndasIwasreadingthesewords,Ithoughttomyself,yeah,[Laughs]that'skindof,that'skindofthedeflationarythinkingthathasinformedalotofthisproject.Inthesensethatrealizingthatoneoftheradicalpossibilitiesofthiskindofworkisthatyoucanmessup.Youcanmakemistakes,youcantrysomethinganditcouldnotwork.Andifthat'sthecase,itmeansyoucantryreallyradicalthings.Youcantryreallyweirdthings.Youcantrythingsthatnobodyelsehastriedbefore.Youcanbreakthingsapartandputthembacktogetherinadifferentformandseewhathappens.

HannahMcGregor: 00:05:24 Andifitdidn'twork,youcanjustbreakthemapartagain.SecretFeministAgendaformehasbeenaprojectinbreakingapartthewaythatIdothingsandputtingitbacktogetherotherwiseandseeingwhatcameofit.Andforme,whatcameofitisareallydeepcommitmenttofeministscholarship,toexpandingthe

3

senseofwhotheaudiencefortheseconversationsis,ofcollaborationandconversationasanalwaysexcitingandenrichingmodeinwhichtodointellectualwork,andofpodcastingasareallyexcitingmediuminwhichtoexperimentwithwhatwethinkscholarlycommunicationcanbe.AndthoseareallthingsI'mgoingtokeepexperimentingwithandfailingathopefullyaslongasI'mluckyenoughtodothiswork.Allright,thatisenoughpreemptivenostalgiaonmypart.So,withoutanyfurtherpause,let'smeetGena.[ThemeMusic:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]

HannahMcGregor: 00:06:30 EugeniaZuroski,youcancallherGena,isawriter,scholarlyjournaleditor,andassociateprofessorofEnglishandCulturalstudiesatMcMasterUniversity.AnAmericanofChinese,Polish,andItaliandescent,shehasbeenaresidentofCanadalivinginDishwithOneSpoonTerritorysince2009.Herscholarshipfocusesonrace,empireandOrientalisminBritishliteratureandcultureofthelong18thcentury,aswellasonhowthoseenlightenmentstructuresofthoughtcontinuetooperatetoday.SheiseditorofthejournalEighteenth-CenturyFictionandafoundingmemberofTheBigger6andBIPOC18collectives,whicharecommittedtotransformingthescholarlyfieldsof18thcenturyandromanticismstudiesfromcoteriesofwhiteprivilegetositesofanti-colonialrefusal.UnderlockdownshehasalsopublishedessaysonPJHarveyandLingMa'snovelSeverance,andhasapoemoutinColumbawiththreemoreonthewayinRoom.Shedoesn'tmissthemorningcommutetowork,butshemisseskaraokeverymuch.

HannahMcGregor: 00:07:31 [Gena'sThemeSong:"HeadOverHeels"byTheGo-Go's]Okay.Hi,how'sitgoing?

GenaZuroski: 00:07:49 It'sgoingprettywell.Imean,notgoingwellatall[Laughs]but-

HannahMcGregor: 00:07:54 [Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 00:07:54 -withinthat,it'sgoingokay.

HannahMcGregor: 00:07:58 Yeah.Ijustrecordedtheintrofortheepisodethat'sgoingtocomeoutthisweek.Sowearerecordingquitefarinadvance.WearerecordingtheweekoftheUSelection.ItisThursday,November5th,andweareallstilljustwaitingtofindout.Yeah.Like,Idon'tknowwhetherthere'sgoingtobeacivilwarintheUS?

4

GenaZuroski: 00:08:23 Exactly.LikeIjust,it'ssuchaweirdweekbecauseontheonehand,nothinghaschangedexactly.Imeanthat'spartoftheproblemislike,literallynothinghaschangedeventhoughweheldawholeelection.

HannahMcGregor: 00:08:37 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 00:08:37 Butalsoit'snotlikeanythingishappeningrightnowthathasn'tbeenhappeningforalongtime.Andyet,becauseoftheritualofelectionsandtheenergythatweareconditionedto,likegatherarounditasaneventthisweekhasjust,it'slike,Ifelt,Isuddenlyfelttheweightofeverythingthat'sbeenhappeninginthisreallydirectwaythisweek.Andit'slikeaweightyoucan'tclimboutfromunder[Laughs].It'sareallyweird.

HannahMcGregor: 00:09:17 Yeah.Yeah.Itfeels,itfeelsveryheavy.Itfeelsverydespairing.Ithinkthesortof[Laughs]thebadnessofboththeoptionsispartofwhatmakesitfeellike,ontheonehandwe'vegotadisasterpossibility,andthenontheotherhand,wehavestillprettybad.

GenaZuroski: 00:09:40 Yeah!

HannahMcGregor: 00:09:40 Butmaybe,butmaybenotasbad?

GenaZuroski: 00:09:43 Butlike,yeah,maybeaslightlylessterrifying—butalsothenI,youknow,andthenIgetsuspiciousofmyfeelingswhereI'mlike,maybeit'sbadofmetoconcedethatoneofthesedisastersislessterrifyingtomethantheotherdisaster.LikeIjust—there'sno,thereisnogoodwaytofeelaboutwhatishappeningrightnow[Laughs].

HannahMcGregor: 00:10:10 [Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 00:10:10 And,andIdon'tknow,likeI'mAmerican,I'mI,soII'vebeenlivinginCanadaorwhat'scurrentlycalledCanadafor11yearsandI'mapermanentresident,butI'mstillacitizenoftheUSand-

HannahMcGregor: 00:10:23 Ididn'tknow.

GenaZuroski: 00:10:24 -Yeah.Somyfamilyis—IgrewupinRochester,NewYork,justacrosstheborderfromhere.AndmysisterandmymomarelivinginRochesterrightnow.AndIhaven'tseenthemsinceJanuaryoflastyear.AndIhaveanothersisterwholivesinNewZealand,whichyouknow,isgreatforhercausethey'redoingokay.Relativelyokay[Laughs].

5

HannahMcGregor: 00:10:49 TheintensitywithwhichI'mlike,couldIgotoNewZealand?Isthatcheating?

GenaZuroski: 00:10:54 Right.But,butalso,youknow,shefeelsfartherawaythanever.

HannahMcGregor: 00:11:02 Mmm.Mm-hmm.

GenaZuroski: 00:11:02 Soyouknow,thispandemicyearhasalsobeenayearofbeingverysuddenlyseparatedfrommyfamily.Nothavinganyideawhentheborderisgoingtoopenupandwe'regoingtobeableto,youknow,crossoverandseeeachother,whichisjustaverycasualthingthatwedid.

HannahMcGregor: 00:11:20 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 00:11:20 AndwatchingthenewsintheUSlikeeveryhour,everypartofit,it'slike,it'salwaystranslatingtomeonsomelevelaslike,Oh,thisborderisnotgoingtoopenupforayear.Oh,theborderisnotgoingtoopenupforadecade.Youknow[Laughs],it'slike,I'mthinkingabout—itfeelslikemy,youknow,myfamilyisbeingliketakenfurtherandfurtherawayfrommethemorethecountrygoesdown[Laughs].So,yeah-

HannahMcGregor: 00:11:50 Yeah.

GenaZuroski: 00:11:50 -It's,it'snotgreat.It'snotgreat.

HannahMcGregor: 00:11:52 It's,it'snot.It'sreallyhard.It—everythingaboutthepandemicandaboutthecurrentpoliticalsituation,Ifeel,youknow,hasseparated—ithasmadewhatwerebeforespacesthatfeltliketheycouldbebroachedwithease,suddenlyfeelreally,reallybigandreally,reallyfar.Tellmeaboutyourrelationshiptohope.I'vebeenthinkingalotthisweek[Laughs]aboutwhatitmeanstohavea,asortofcriticalandinformedandfeministrelationshiptohope,whichissomethingthatIamoftensosuspiciousofbecauseitcomessooftenpackagedinthissortofverylikeshieldedtoxicpositivitythat'slike,well,youknow,nomatterwhatwe'regoingtogetthroughthis.Andlike,Imean,alotofusknow,andIthinkparticularlypeopleofcolourknow,we,don'talways,wedon'talwaysgetthroughthis.

GenaZuroski: 00:12:50 Lotsofpeopledonotgetthroughit.

HannahMcGregor: 00:12:53 Lotsofpeopledon'tgetthroughit!Sowhatdoesitlooklikeyouto,youknow,whatdoyou,doyoufeelhopefuloristhatathingthatyoufoster?

6

GenaZuroski: 00:13:02 Yeah,I—thisissomethingthatI've,Idothinkaboutthisalotbecauselikeyousaid,hopeisoneofthosetermsthatissoaggressivelyappropriatedby,byliberaldiscourses.Andyouknow,it'slike,it'slikediversityandinclusion,right.WhichisanareainwhichI'vebeen,I'vebeenkindof,youknow,draftedto,todoacertainamountofworkforinstitutions,aswellas,youknow,againstinstitutionsunderthoserubrics.Andsoyoulearnveryquickly,Ithink—youlearntobesuspiciousofhowthosewordsgetweaponizedagainstactualtransformativechange.Thatthekindthat,thatwouldgivepeople[Laughs]thatpeoplehopefor,right.

HannahMcGregor: 00:13:52 Yeah[Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 00:13:52 Orgetsweaponizedagainsttherealityof,ofthethingsthatpeoplehopewillhappen.SoIthink,youknow,oneofthethingsabouthopethatItrytoremainvigilantaboutwhenIusethattermmyself,withmyself,andwithothers,isthisideathatifwe'retalkingaboutradicalhope,that'ssomethingthathastobeearned,right.Likeyou,Ifeelprettystronglythatwedeservehope,butwe,butwecometodeserveitbyearningit,byworkingtowardsit.Andthat,andthatworkcomesinsomanydifferentforms.Youknow,IfeellikeBlackpeople,Indigenouspeople,peopleofcolour,LGBTQ+people,disabledpeople,likewe,andtheyhaveallbeenearningitallalong,right.Justbylivingunderconditionsthataredesignedtodepriveyouof,ofhopeforyouryourself,youknow,foryourownsurvival,yourownflourishing,andyourownfuture.Sothat'saformof—likethatthathasalreadybeenearned.Somarginalizedpopulationsofpeople,Ithinkit's,it'sreallyimportantforustocultivatewaysofmaintaininghopebecause,becauseit'searned,it'sdeserved.ButwhenIseeitbeingappropriatedfortheperpetuationof,ofsystemsofpower,youknow,thathave-

HannahMcGregor: 00:15:25 Thatarekillingus.

GenaZuroski: 00:15:26 -thatarekillingus![Laughs]Youknow.Thatare,youknow,thatareextremelyviolent.I,yeah.Ijust,Ican't,it'sdisgustingactually.That'sahopethathasnotbeenearned.Idon'twantpeopletobeallowedtohopethat,thattheywillneverhavetoreckonwiththekindsofviolencethatwe'realllivingwith,butsomepeoplehavetofeeland,andknowmorethanothers.Youknow.

HannahMcGregor: 00:15:59 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 00:15:59 Idon'thopefor—[Laughs]Idon'thavespaceforpeopletohopetobeshieldedfromoursharedrealities.

7

HannahMcGregor: 00:16:08 You,youmakemethinkaboutachallengeIhaveencounteredwiththispodcastprojectinparticulartimeandagain,whichisthatIliketotalkaboutthingslikecareandhopeandgentlenessandkindnessandjoy.Andthat,thatissoquicklyandeasilyappropriatedbypeoplewhowouldlikeallofthegentlenessandcareandjoywithoutanyofthework.[Laughs]Andtheeasewithwhichpeoplesay,like,"OhIloveyourpodcast.Ilovewhenyoutalkaboutgentlenessandself-care.Ireallyneedaremindertotakebreakssometimes.Didn'tlovethatepisodeaboutwhatwhitesupremacy,mademefeelbad.Butotherwise,bigfan."AndI'mlike,"Ohno,no,no,[Laughs]no,no,no.No."

GenaZuroski: 00:16:50 Takeitall.Youget—youhavetotakeitallin.

HannahMcGregor: 00:16:54 Notonlydoyouhavetotakeitall,butlikethere'snohopewithoutgrapplingwithwhitesupremacy.Likethereis—what,whateverthingyou'recallinghopethatyouthinkisoutsideofactuallyjustbeingupagainsttheconditionsoftheworld.That'snothope!

GenaZuroski: 00:17:11 Yeah.Yeah.Iactually—youjustgavemethis,this,likethisideathatI'veneverhadbefore,butI'mgoingtotryitout,outloud.Itmightbe-

HannahMcGregor: 00:17:21 Ok.

GenaZuroski: 00:17:21 -itmightbeagarbageidea,butwe'llsee.ButIwasjustthinkinglike,sometimespeopleusethewordhopewhentheymeanwish.Andlike,forexample,whenpeoplearelike,youknow,"Oh,IhopeIhopethisisn'tracist."Butit'slike,"No.Itis."Youwishitweren'tracistbecauseyouwishthatthisthingthatyouthink"we'renotracist",butitis.Youcan'thopeforthat.That's[Laughs]like,youcan'thopeforrealitiesnottoexist.AndIthinkthat'sareallyhardthingfor,Imean,forlikewhitepeople,youknow,notall,notallwhitepeople,butmany,manypeople.

HannahMcGregor: 00:18:01 Ehprobablyallwhitepeople,realistically.

GenaZuroski: 00:18:03 Yeah.Youknow,it'slike,youhaveto,Ithinktowrapyourmindaroundhope,youhavetodedicatesometimetothinkingabouttemporality,youknow,andlikeyourrelationshiptohistories,right.Yourrelationshiptothepresent.And,and,andletthatinformhowyoubuildarelationshiptothefuture,whichiswhathopeis,right.Hopeisthenameforrelatingtoafutureofsomekind.Likeit,itdoesn'tworklikeawish.Youknow,youcan'tjustlikehopeoutofnowhere.Youhavetodotheworkofunderstanding,likewherewe'vecomefrom,[Laughs]wherewe

8

allarerightnow,whereyouareinthemiddleofallofthat,thenyoucanstarttolike,buildyourhope,right.

HannahMcGregor: 00:18:47 Yeah.Yeah.Thathopehastobemarriedtoaction,ithastobemarriedtowill.Thatitcan'tjustbeasortofephemeral—Imean,wishit'stheperfectwaytoputit[Laughs].Likefingerscrossed!Likeno,no,no,that'snothowchangehappens.Wedon'tcrossourfingersandwish.

GenaZuroski: 00:19:06 Yeah.No.Itdoesn'tworkthatway.

HannahMcGregor: 00:19:08 Sotellmeaboutsomeofyourownsortofpracticesofhopefulness.I'mthinkinginparticularabouttherelationshipbetweenhopeandplanning-

GenaZuroski: 00:19:18 Mmm.

HannahMcGregor: 00:19:18 -whichdoesseemtohavethissharedsortoffutureorientedethostothem.

GenaZuroski: 00:19:24 Yeah,yeah.Yeah.Sotheplanningstuff,theplanifestoprojectthatI'vebeendoingwithLuciaLorenzihasreally—that'soneofthebestthingsthatIhavefoundmyselfdoinginthelastcoupleofyears.AndsheandIweretalkingrecentlyabout,youknow,howfunnyhahalike,youknow,devastatinglyfunnyitisthatwhenwestartedthisproject,wereallywerejustlike,"hi,I'manerdwhobuystoomanynotebooksandIlikestickers,andIdon'tknowyouverywell,butIthinkyou'rereallycoolandIwanttobefriends.AndsoIthoughtmaybewecouldbelikejournalnerd,friends,andliketalkaboutplanning".Andwelikebondedimmediatelyoverthis.Andthenassoonaswestartedofferinglikeourfirstworkshop,whichwasreallysupposedtobelike,"here'sanapponyourphonethatcanhelpyouschedulethingsinawaythatwon'tmakeyoufeellikeyouneverhaveanyideawhat'sgoingon.It'sapracticaltoolforbeingaprofessionalacademic."Itimmediately,becauseofwhoweare,becamethislikemanifestoaboutreclaimingourtimefromtheinstitutionthatistryingtolikesuckourlifeenergyfromus.[Laughs]Andwe-

HannahMcGregor: 00:20:45 [Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 00:20:45 -hadthisgroupoflike20gradstudentswhohadallbroughttheir,like,theirlikenicenotebooksandpens.Andtheyweresointoit.Theywerejustlike,"YES![Laughs]It'samovement!"

HannahMcGregor: 00:21:02 [Laughs].

9

GenaZuroski: 00:21:02 Totallyanaccident.It'sjustthat,like,wehavefeelingsaboutthings.

HannahMcGregor: 00:21:07 Justaccidentallyradical.

GenaZuroski: 00:21:09 Yeah,accidentallyradical.Anditallcameout.Butonceitcameout,werealizedwhatwewerereallythinkingabout,youknow,likewehad,wehadmanagedtopitchandgettimefromtheinstitutiontorunaworkshopon,youknow,liketimemanagementandproductivityskills.Andinsteadwhatweweredoingwasusingthetoolslikethematerialtools,pens,notebooks,youknow,calendarapplications,whateverthetoolsare.Andwe'reretoolingthemliketowardscriticalmethodsofreflectiononhowtheacademicinstitutionandhowtheacademicprofessionstructures,ourlives[Laughs].ourtime,ourmentalspace,ourrelationshipstooneanothertowardveryparticularendsthatarenotforus.Theyareforpowerthatdoesn'tserveus.Right.Andhowdoyoureclaimthosethings?Like,howdoyoure—howdoyoureconfigureallthoseareasofyourintellectualandpersonalandembodiedlifesothatyoucandoyourworkinawaythatyieldsthevaluethatyouwantittoyield?

HannahMcGregor: 00:22:31 Imean,how?

GenaZuroski: 00:22:33 Itsoundslikeaculttalkingaboutitthisway,butit'sveryearnest.Likethat'searnestlywhatwe'redoing.

HannahMcGregor: 00:22:38 Imeanit'sreallyworkingforme.Iwouldliketojointhiscall,pleasetellmehow.

GenaZuroski: 00:22:42 [Laughs]We'llsendyouanemail.

HannahMcGregor: 00:22:43 [Laughs]Imean,it'sso,it'ssopowerful.Thatlanguage,there'sareasonwhythatphrase,like"Iamreclaimingmytime"becamethekindofmemethatitdidbecauseIthinkitspeakssopowerfully,youknow,onetothoseofuswhoworkwithinaninstitutionlikeacademia,thatsodesperatelywantstospreadoutandclaimtheentiretyofyourlifeandthat,andthatalotofpeople,Ithinkwho,forme,atleastthevastmajorityofthepeoplewhomentoredme,thepeoplewhotaughtmearepeoplewho,enthusiasticallylackedboundariesaroundtheirwork.Whotookpride,right.That,thatbeinganintellectualmeansthatyouwillnever,ever,everdoanythingoutsideofyourworkbecauseyourworkisbeinganintellectual,soifyoustopworkingforaseconditmeansyoustoppedbeingintellectual.Andthenwhatareyou?

10

Speaker3: 00:23:36 Right.Whatareyou?

HannahMcGregor: 00:23:38 Justalayperson!?[sarcastic]

GenaZuroski: 00:23:40 Exactly.[Laughs].

HannahMcGregor: 00:23:40 Disgusting.[Laughs]Butitisalso,youknow,aconditionofcapitalismthatitwouldliketoownandconsumeahundredpercentofourtimeandringusdryandownouremptyhusks.Andthenthrowusintothewastebitofhistory.

GenaZuroski: 00:23:57 Seriously.It'slike,why?Imean,oneofthethingsthattheplanifestopractices,andwhenIsaypractices,Ireallyjustmeanlikelearningtodoodleinanotebook,youknow,aslikethingthatI'mallowedtodowhileIfigureoutwhatmydayisgoingtocontain.Orlikekindofcompellingmyselftowritedownadailyreflectionwithoutknowingwhatthecontentisgoingtobe,or,youknow,Imean,justliketheselikereallysmall,doable,littlethingsthatadduptonewhabits,newwaysofrelatingtoyourday,newwaysofrelatingtothethingsthatyouhavetodo,youknow,allthisstuff.Butoneofthethingsthat—I'vecompletelyforgottenwhereIstartedthatsentence[Laughs]I'mlikewhatisthethingthatI'velearned?OhLord.It'sthatkindof-

HannahMcGregor: 00:24:53 Sorelatable.

GenaZuroski: 00:24:56 -[Laughs]Yes.

HannahMcGregor: 00:24:56 Soit's,it'ssmallpractices.

GenaZuroski: 00:24:59 Yeah.That,wasn'tthepoint.Thatwas-

HannahMcGregor: 00:25:01 Aboutgettingoutfromundercapitalism.

GenaZuroski: 00:25:03 Itwasaboutgettingoutfromundercapitalism.

HannahMcGregor: 00:25:06 WhatyouweresayingreallyremindsmeofaconversationI'vebeenhavingsortofiterativelyoverthepastfewmonthswithfriendofthepodcast,ZenaSharmanabouttherelationshipbetweenroutineandritual.Andtheideaof,of,youknow,particularlyinthismoment,whenforsomanyofus,ourliveshavebecomesomuchsmaller,somuchmoreboring,somuchlesseventfulandmorelike,"Oh,I'mjustinthisspace,wakingupeveryday,doingthesamethingoverandoveragain.",Andhowmightitbepossibletorethinkthoseroutinesasritualsthatare,youknow,deliberatelyandwithcareandintentionstructuringyourday,structuringyourwork,structuringyourlife

11

andthewaythatritualbringsthisintentionandthisjoyandthiscelebrationandthiskindofagencyintoit.Soratherthanitbeing,andIamabsolutelyguiltyofthis,youknow,Iwakeupinthemorning,IlookatwhatIhaveonmyagendaandIjustgolike,"Ughhh."

GenaZuroski: 00:26:13 Yes.

HannahMcGregor: 00:26:14 Ughhhhh.Likecrushedbyadulthoodagain.

GenaZuroski: 00:26:20 Exactly.Well,sothisactuallydidremindmeofwhatIwasgoingtosayamomentago,whichisthatI've,I'vecometounderstandhowmuchbeingimmersedinacademia,youknow,and,andimmersedbecauseIloveit,Iwouldn'tbehereifI,ifIdidn'tloveit,butwhenyou'reimmersedinacareerlikethisandaculturelike,likeacademiaandyoufeelinlovewithitandyourwork,yourpleasuresbecomesoattachedtoeventhemostpunishingaspectsoftheworkandtheculture.AndsooneofthethingsthatI'vereallybeenusingjournalingandplanningto,toreflectonandtothinkcriticallyaboutarethe,thethingsthatmakemefeelgoodforgoodreasons.Andthethingsthatmademefeelgoodforbadreasons.

HannahMcGregor: 00:27:19 Ha-hah.

GenaZuroski: 00:27:19 AndI'mnottalkingaboutlikesexoranything,right.LikeI'mtalkingaboutlikeprofessionalrituals,right?

HannahMcGregor: 00:27:25 Mm-hmm.

GenaZuroski: 00:27:25 Like,whydoIfeellike—Idon'tknowonelittleexampleI'llgiveyouislikeacoupleofyearsagoIwroteanarticlethatwasnotreallyaresearcharticle.Itwasavery—Iwaslikeinvitedto,towritethestateofthefieldarticleabout,youknow,oneofmyareasofexpertise.Soreallylowstakes,youknow,wroteitout,didn'thavealotinvestedinit,youknow,andthenIgot,anditwaspeerreviewed.SothenIgotthepeerreviewreportsandoneofthereportswaslike,"thisisaverycompetentessay".AndIfeltsucharushofreliefandlikepleasurefrombeingcalledcompetentthatlike,Ialmostcried.AndthenIwaslike,what'sgoingonhere?Likewhat[Laughs],whathasthisplacedonetomethatIamsoinneedoflikeacrumbofpositivereinforcementthatsomestrangercallingmecompetentatwork—IknowI'mcompetent.

HannahMcGregor: 00:28:32 [Laughs]AtmyliteraljobthatI'mdefinitelygoodat.

12

GenaZuroski: 00:28:37 Likethat'sabadformofpleasure,youknow.Likethat'saformofpleasurethat,youknow,Isavoreditforthemoment,butIthinkit'sworthrecognizingthatthatcomesfromaplaceofdeprivation,youknow?

HannahMcGregor: 00:28:49 Mmm.

GenaZuroski: 00:28:49 Andlike,soinourroutines,likesomanyofthethingsthatyougetdrawntodo,orthatyou'relikeaddictedto,youknow,likeyourworkthingsthatyou'readdictedto—the,thejobencouragesyouto,tofeedthosecompulsion'sbecauseit'sgoodforthejobsomehow.

HannahMcGregor: 00:29:06 Mmm-hmm.Mmm-hmm.

GenaZuroski: 00:29:06 Butthoseareoftenthethingswhereyougettotheendofthedayandyou'relike,"whydidIspendmyentireday,likeansweringemails?"Youknow?It'spartiallybecause,youknow,someonetellsyouthat'syourjobtositatthedeskandansweremailsallday,butit'sacompulsionthatyou'velearned,youknow,you'vehabituatedyourselfto.Andit'sonethatit'sworthbreakingbecauseitdoesn'tactuallymakeyoufeelgood.Youjustfeellikeyoucan'tstopdoingit.

HannahMcGregor: 00:29:34 Yeah.

GenaZuroski: 00:29:34 So,yeah.SotheplanningandjournalingisIthinkalsoawayofcultivatingbetterrituals,likerecognizingwhichritualshavebeeninstilledinyouandarelike,kindoflikeautomatingyouinwaysthatyouarenotenjoyingandarenotservingyouorthepeopleandthingsyouactuallywanttoserve.And,andthencultivatingsomeotheronesthatyoucanbeattachedtointhesameway.

HannahMcGregor: 00:30:02 OhmyGod.Ilovethat.Ihavebeenexperiencing,youknow,Ithinkthisisa,thisisathingthathappenstoalotofacademicsisthatwhenIgetreallybusy,Igetreallyintothisheadspaceofliketasks,likedoingtasks.Everydaymyjobistodotasks.I'mgoingtodoahundredtasks.Attheendoftheday,I'mgoingtofinishallmytasks.AndthenIcheckthemoff.AndthenIdidagoodjob.Andthentomorrowmoretasks.

GenaZuroski: 00:30:29 [Laughs].

HannahMcGregor: 00:30:29 [Laughs]AndifIfindtimetolikewriteorthinkitalwayshastobeframedasa,likeachieveX,writeaparagraphofthis.It'satask.Icheckeditoff.AndwhenI,whenitcomestimetodo

13

somethinglike,read,like,youknow,Ijusthavetoreadthisbookandlike,thinkaboutit,thatkindofworkdoesn'tfitwellintotasks-

GenaZuroski: 00:31:01 Right.

HannahMcGregor: 00:31:01 -youknow,particularlythekindofreadingorthinkingthathastohappenslowlyandgeneratively.Andthat,youknow,ifI'mactuallygonnacomeupwithanidea,likeanewideatoarticulate,Ihavetolikegositdown.Andlike,givemyselfsometimeandspace.ButI'mjustlike,"HowdoIfit?Where?That'snotatask.HowdoI?Ihaveemail,howdareI?HowdareIread?"

GenaZuroski: 00:31:29 [Laughs]Right.Yeah."WhatdidI—what'stheyieldofthisreading?Whatdidityield?"

HannahMcGregor: 00:31:34 Mmm-hmm.

GenaZuroski: 00:31:34 LikeI,Idon'tknow.IalsothinkthoughthatthisissomethingthatIwastalkingaboutwiththegraduatestudentsinourdepartmenthereatMcMasterrecentlyaspartofthedoctoralresearchmethodscoursethatItaughtlastyear.AndIwasaguestspeakerinthisyear'sversion.Andweweretalkingaboutlikedissertationplanning,soprojectplanning,andIwasthinkingabout,youknow,youhavetolearn,anditissomethingyouhavetolearnrightthroughpractice.Youhavetolearnthatclassicplanningtrickoftakingthebigprojectandthenlikebreakingitdownintomanageabletasks.Right?Likeotherwise,howwouldyouevergetanythingdone?AndIwastryingtothinkaboutthatmodel,notintermsoflet'sgetaddictedtotasks[Laughs]right-

HannahMcGregor: 00:32:23 Uh-huh.

GenaZuroski: 00:32:23 -butactuallytogobacktoyourinitialquestion,likemoreintermsoflikeaneconomyofhope,right?Likehowdoyouuseplanningmethodstoturnyourbigproject,whichisathingyouhopefor,right?Likethat'ssomethinghopethatyouwilldothisbigresearchprojectthatwillmakeameaningfulcontributiontoascholarlyconversationofsomekindandyoucan'tjustwishitintobeing.Youhavetodoit.

HannahMcGregor: 00:32:53 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 00:32:53 Sohowdoyoudoit?AndoneofthethingsI'vealwaysstruggledwithwithbigprojectplanningisthatyouneverfeellikeyou're

14

makingprogressonit,ifthe,ifyou'realwayskeepingthebigthinginmind.

HannahMcGregor: 00:33:07 Mmm.

GenaZuroski: 00:33:07 Becauseattheendofeveryday,thebookisn'tdone.Thedissertationisn'tdone.Momatterwhatyoudidthatday,right.Evenifyouwrote3000words,there'sstilllikethispartofyou,that'sfocusedonthebigthingwhereyou'relike,"mybook'snotdone!"Itwillneverbedoneuntilthedaythatyou'vemadeitdone.

NewSpeaker: 00:33:26 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 00:33:27 Andtherearesomanydayswithabigproject,right?There'slikedaysanddaysanddays.There'sweeks,months,years.Sopartofthe,breakingitdownintotasksforme,Ithinkit'shelpfultothinkofitintermsofgivingmeachievablethingsthatIcanidentifyonthepageasaformofprogress.Likeifit'sawordcountthatworksforyou,right.There'snovirtue,there'snoinherentvirtueinhavingwrittenathousandwords,right.

HannahMcGregor: 00:34:01 [Laughs].TellwritingTwitterthat.

GenaZuroski: 00:34:01 Yeahyou'reabadperson,ifyoudon'tdoit.There'snoinherentvirtue.Butifyouwriteitdownandyousay,"ifIwriteathousandwordstomorrow,Ihavemadethismeasurableprogresstowardmy50,000wordbook."

HannahMcGregor: 00:34:17 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 00:34:18 That'sgood.Youknow.That'shelpfultoyou.Thatgivesyousomethinglikepositivetoholdontoasyoulikefallasleep.[Laughs].

HannahMcGregor: 00:34:28 [Laughs]Imean,Ilovethatasa,sortofbothasawayofthinkingabouttherelationshipbetweensortofhopeandstructureincompletingaparticularproject,butalsotherelationbetweenhopeandstructureinanyofthekindsofworkthatwearetryingtodothatdoesn'thaveanendperiod,right?Likeabookhasanendatsomepoint,ifit'sonlybecauseyougolike,"well,that'sgood,that'sgoodenoughIguess-

GenaZuroski: 00:34:58 Yeah.

HannahMcGregor: 00:34:58 -Here."It'skindofanartificialendinthesensethatyoujustsay,"IguessIwillstopworkingonitnow."But,butsomanyof

15

thesekindsofworkthatwearedoingliterallyneverends,willliterallyneverbedone,willneverbeaccomplished.Andthatsenseoflike,howdoyoustopthatawarenessthatwewillneveraccomplishthethingsthatweareworkingtowards?Notina,Imean,notina,like,we'realldoomedtofail,butinthesenseoflike,there,therewillneverstopbeinginjustice.Therewillneverstopbeing—therewillalwaysbetodo.

NewSpeaker: 00:35:37 Totally.

NewSpeaker: 00:35:37 Sohowdoyou,youknow,makethatworknotawish,butahope,right?Sothatitismarriedtoactualwork,butinawaythatpropelsand,andletsyouhaveenergyandintentionaroundit,ratherthantheendlessnessofitbeingthethingthat,thatstopsyou.Right?LikeIthinkwe'veall,we'veallhadthatmoment.AndI'mthinkingparticularlyaboutEDIwork.I'verecentlyrealizedthatinCanadawecallitEDI,equity,diversityandinclusion,andintheStates,theycallitDEI,diversity,equityandinclusion.AndIdon'tknowwhywehavetwodifferentordersforit,butthereyougo.Wedo.Butitmeansthesamething,whichisit'sthesortofinstitutionalizedframeworkforaddressingsystemicbarrierstoaccessinvariousindustriesandinstitutions.Andthatisworkthatwhenyougetdrawnintoitandstartdoingit,itjustfeelslikeone,sohopelesswhenyouactuallystarttoseethewaytheseinstitutionswork,itcanfeelsohopeless.Andalsosoreadilytransformedintoaseriesofmeaninglesstasksthatdon'tactuallymovetowardsanything.

GenaZuroski: 00:37:03 Yes,that'sright.Thatarenotformsof,ofprogress.And—butarecalledprogress.Likeprogressisanotheroneofthesewordsthathaslike,youknow,vastlydifferentmeaningsinthewaythatit'sdeployed.Andsoprogressinthe,inthesenseof,youknow,beingabletofeellikeyouaremoving,thatyouractionsare,aremeaningfultowardsomefutureobjective,right,islikeonething.Butalotofwhatgetscalledprogressiveintermsofpracticesthatgettakenupinstitutionallyor,youknow,are,aretheoppositeofthat.They'rethingsthathappeninsteadofmovingtowardstructuralchange.[Laughs]

Speaker3: 00:37:52 They'reliterallynotprogressive.SoI,yeah.Soasa,asaliteratureperson,Ifindthesekindsofinstitutionalrealities,perplexing.

HannahMcGregor: 00:38:02 [Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 00:38:02 Butthereweare.ButIactually,Ithinkthatlikeyourcommentsaboutdevotingourselvestomovementsthatwillneverbefinished,right.Wherethereisnoactualendgoal.And,andhow

16

doyoudothat?Likehowdoyouparticipateinsomethingandhowdoyoustay,youknow,withsomething,knowingthatyou'renotgoingtoknowwhenit'sdone,becauseitwillneverbedone.I'vebeenthinkingaboutthatalotintermsofcollectivity,practicesofcollectivityinacademia,butalso,Ithinkthisisrelevanttomentorship,youknow,and,andcollectivityand,andmentorshiparetwothingsthatIactuallyhavebeenthinkingtogetheralotrecently.Becausepartofitis—likeatleastspeakingfrommyownexperience,assomeonewho'sveryinclinedtotakeoneverythingmyselfand,andlike,justbelike,"okay,look,I'mjustgoingtodothis".[Laughs]Allthesethingsneedtobedone.

HannahMcGregor: 00:39:02 Ugh.

GenaZuroski: 00:39:02 IrecognizeI'mcompetentinthem.

HannahMcGregor: 00:39:03 Ugh.

NewSpeaker: 00:39:03 IhavenoideawhatI'mdoingontheothers,butIfeellikeIcouldgiveitago.Idon'twanttoinconvenienceanyone.Idon'twantanyoneelsetofeelliketheyhavetodoeverythingintheworld.Solook,I'lljustdoit.

HannahMcGregor: 00:39:14 IaminthispictureandIdon'tlikeit.Likejust[Laughs]likepleaseuntagme.Idon't-

GenaZuroski: 00:39:23 It'slikeaverydominantstrainofmypersonality.

HannahMcGregor: 00:39:23 [Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 00:39:26 AndsolikecollectivelyissomethingIhavetoworkatbecauseIbelieveinitverystrongly,butitdoesn'tcomelikenaturallyreallytome.Butthethingisthatit'simportanttodisentangleyourselffromthose,thosemodesofindividuatedresponsibilityandagency,right?Whereifyourwayofbeingandofdoingthingsandofdevotingyourselftothingsisreallyformedintheshapeofyouasanindividualperson,youcan'tdoit.It'simpossible.Right?Andthat'swhentherealizationthatyou'reworkingtowardssomethingthatyouwillneveraccomplishorthatyouwillneverfinish,becomesasiteoflikehopesbeingcrushed.[Laughs]Right?Whereasifyoureallylearntorelatetoothersthroughthatworkinamodeofcollectivity,you'reneversolelyresponsiblefortheachievementsortheprogressorwhatever,right?Solikethatburdengetsliftedoffofyouinawaythatmakesyourlifelivableagain,right.

17

GenaZuroski: 00:40:41 Itgivesyousomespacetobreathe.Anditalsoallowsyoutolendyourenergy,youknow,productivelytoothers,right?It'snotjustlikesomeoneelseistheretoliketakesomeoftheworkawayfromyou.It'slike,oh,theworkactuallyfeelscompletelydifferentwhenit'sdistributedamongthis,this,thiscollectiveofus.Andforme,thathasbeenreallykeytobeingabletothinkintergenerationallytowardsafuture.Andthisiswhyit'srelatedtomentorshipforme.Becauseonceyoureallylearntolikethinkandactasanintellectualandasan,asanactivistinacollectivemode,thenyourecognizementorshipasawayofdoingthattowardafuturethatyou'renotgonnanecessarilybearoundfor,orbeinvolvedin.Right?Likethework,it'snotlikeyou'rescaredyou'regoingtodiebeforetheworkgetsdone.It'smorelikeyougettohopethattheworkisgoingtocontinuebecauseyouseewhoit'sgoingtobecarriedin.

HannahMcGregor: 00:41:47 Sothatsense—yeah,absolutely.Mentorshipisanotherfuture-orientedpracticethatreallydoeshavethesenseofsortofa,likeadeliberatepracticeofhope.Youknow,thatweare,weareworkingforwardinto,intopossibilities.Imean,IthinkaboutthisallthetimewhenIthinkaboutlikemyownrelationshiptothisinstitution,whichitis,itistrickytobeinaplaceliketheuniversitywheresomanypeoplehavereallyembracedtherhetoricoftheinstitutionandseemtowholeheartedlybelieveinit'sgood.It'strickytobeapersonwho'sinitandalsodeeplysuspiciousofit.[Laughs].Andtobelike,okay,I'mhere.Idon'treallybuyanyofthisstuffaboutthegoodwe'redoing.SowhyamIhereagain?Like,ohyeah.Becauselikealotofotherpeoplearehere.Andiftheonlypeoplewhoareherearethepeoplewhoarelike,"yeah,theuniversity!"Thenit's,thennothing'sgoingtochange.

HannahMcGregor: 00:42:55 Andthatformehas,hasalwaysbeenabouta,Imean,anorientation,particularlytowardsstudents.That'slike,isthereawayofmakingthisintoaspacethatismorelivablefor,forotherpeople?That,thatcollectivitypieceofit,it'sevenhardertowrapmyheadaroundwhatthatwouldlooklikethentothinkaboutmentorship,whichIthink,youknow,mentorshipcanstillbeisolatedandindividuatedsuchthatlike,Imean,weseethisalotwithlikescholarsgatheringmenteesasaformofinstitutionalcapital,thatitisaboutboostingthereputationandstatusofaparticularindividualviathementeesthattheycanlikepointatandbelike,"lookatthatperson,mentoredthatperson".

GenaZuroski: 00:43:42 Right.Yes.

18

HannahMcGregor: 00:43:42 "LookwhatIdid."Butthewholenotionofthissortoflikecollectivemodeloftransformationinwhichmentorshipplaysoneroleissucha,it'ssuchatotal,totallydifferentwaytoimaginethat.

GenaZuroski: 00:43:58 Yeah.Yeah.Ithinkthat,sothe,thecollectivityidea,thereasonit'sbeenonmymindalotlatelyisbecauseI'vebeeninvitedtospeakinthelastfewyearsaboutliketheBiggerSixCollective,whichI'mafoundingmemberofandtheothercollectivesthatnamedthemselvesascollective,theV21collectiveisone,youknow,oneofthefirstthatkindofmadeasplashinitsfieldofVictorianstudies.ButtheonesthatI'vebeenmoreinvolvedinarethecollectivesofBIPOCscholarsinlikepre-1900fieldsofliteraryandculturalstudies,whichareoverwhelminglywhitefieldsfor,forreasons,right,bydesign.Andsothereasonthatthesecommunitiesarepullingtogetherintheformofthecollective,Imean,therearemultiplereasons,multiplewaysyoucouldexplainit,butoneofthemisjust,we'vebeen,we'vebeenisolatedfromoneanother,youknow,liketobefrank,likewe'rethetokenhiresin,inthesefields.

GenaZuroski: 00:45:08 Andsotheyonlyhireoneofusif,ifany,right.[Laughs].

HannahMcGregor: 00:45:12 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 00:45:12 Andthey—andinstitutionsoverwhelminglyhirenon-Blackandnon-Indigenouspeopleofcolourinthesefieldsandthenfeellike,"Oh,wehired,youknow,apersonofcolour".Andsothatkindofisolationby,byinstitutionaldesignhasnowyieldedIthinkafewgenerationsofBIPOCscholarsinfieldsthathaveadoptedliketakenup,takenaninterestinraceandcolonialismwithoutstructurallychangingthewhitesupremacyofthewaytheydefineknowledgeandinstitutionalauthority.Andthecollectiveislikethewaythatwecometogether—Imean,socialmediahasmadeitpossiblebecausecollectivescanformovergeographicaldistance,youknow?So,sohashtagsonTwitterhavebecomeawayofcollecting.And,andwhatwefindisthat,like,Idon'tknow,it's,thisisalsoamentorshipthing,right?

GenaZuroski: 00:46:17 Likethereareseniorscholarswhoseworkwasreally,reallycrucialtomyowneducationandmyownformationasascholarandintellectualand,andanactivist,Ithink.And,andtofeelcollectedwiththemisjust,it'slike,it'ssothrilling,butthenalso,youknow,we'recollectingthis,thisnextgenerationofemergingscholarssothattheydon'thavetofollowthesamekindofpaththatwedidthroughtheinstitutionalchannels,right.Where,like,youknow,youkindof,ifyou'reluckyyougetkindoflikesuckedintooneofthesepathwaystoprofessional

19

successattheexpenseof,ofbeingincommunitywithalltheotherscholarsofcolour.And,and,youknow,likethosechannelsdon'texistanymorethesamewaythattheydidwhen,youknow,whenIatleastwasajuniorscholar.Sothat'sonethinglikethecollectivesaretakingtheplaceofprofessionalpathwaysthatareactivelybeingshutdown.ButIalsothinkthatit'sjusta,it'skindofabetterwaytobeinprofessionalrelationwithotherpeople.AndI'mhappythatwe'reabletodoitinwaysthatliterallymateriallydidnotexist,youknow,agenerationagowhenIwasagraduatestudent.

HannahMcGregor: 00:47:49 Itstrikesmeasyoutalkaboutcollectivesandthese,thesewaysof,ofbridgingdeliberatelyconstructedformsofisolationandindividuation,sortofworkingagainstthat.Italsostrikesmethatthemodelofcollectivityreallychallengesthesortofunidirectionalideaofmentorship.Thatit'sasortof,youknow,theexpertmentors,theinexpert,theestablishedmentors,thenon-established.Thatlikewhenyouareorganizedasacollectivethere'spossibilitiesformentorshipmovingin,inlotsofdifferentdirectionsbetweenpeopleatlotsofdifferentstages.

GenaZuroski: 00:48:30 Yes,absolutely.Absolutely.It'sinthecollectiveswhereIfindusmovingawayfromthe,thevocabularyofjuniorandseniorscholars.Youknow,Imean,wedon'thave—I'veevenbeenthinkingabout,youknow,thephraseemergingscholars,whichIusejustbecauseIdon'tyethaveabetterwordto,to,toname,youknow,the,the,thegroupofpeopleI'mtryingtonamethere.Andemergentisalittlebitlikemoreflexible,Ithink,thancallingsomeonejunior—It'sjustlikeless,youknow,it'slesspatronizingthanjunior.ButIthinkin,yeah,inthecollectivemodel,seniorandjunior,likeceasetomakesense,becauseknowledgeisbeingexchangedlaterallyin,insomanydifferentdirections.And,and,youknow,that's,that'safunctionof,ofaspacelikeTwittertoo,where,yeah.Imean,there's,there'sliketoomuchtosayaboutTwitteraslikeasiteofanything[Laughs].

HannahMcGregor: 00:49:27 Phew!

GenaZuroski: 00:49:28 ButIwillsaythatI,youknow,Icontinuetofinditareallyvibrantspaceforthatkindofmessyperpetuallearning.Youknow,IgoontherebecauseI'mlikeabsorbingknowledgefrompeoplewhoI—likeifIwereinauniversity,likeanactualuniversityspacewiththem,Iwouldwanttolearnfromthemjustasmuch.Buttheactualstructureofthespace,right,andthedynamicsofthespacewouldnotputusinaplacewheretheycouldtalktomethatway.Right.AndsoI'm,andIcouldlearn.Or,orallowmetolikeoverhearthem,talkingtosomeone

20

elseinawaythatIamgoingtogetaverypowerfullessonfromrightbylikelisteningin.Likeatwork,Iwouldn't,andIshouldn'tbeabletolisteninonthatconversation[Laughs].

HannahMcGregor: 00:50:30 Yeah[Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 00:50:30 ButonTwitteryoucan.AndsoIthinkthatoverturningthose,thosehierarchiesofexperienceissoimportantrightnow,becauseexperience,Imean,thisiswhatyou'retalkingaboutbeforewiththeplanningand,andjournaling,likealotofourprofessionalexperiencehastaughtusbadthingsthatwe'renowtryingtounlearn,youknow?

HannahMcGregor: 00:50:59 Yeah.

GenaZuroski: 00:50:59 And,andwehavealottolearnfromthepeoplewhohaven'tbeenconditionedthatway.Yet.[Laughs].

HannahMcGregor: 00:51:07 Onehundredpercent.Ifeelthisallthetimewithmy,mygraduatestudentsandmyundergraduatesthattheycomeintotheinstitutionwitharadicalsenseofhopeandaradicalsenseofresistancetotheexpectationsof,youknow,civilityandprofessionalismthat,thatareattachedto,totheuniversity.Andthatgets,youknow,the,thegeneralmodelofprofessionalizationandmentorshipisthatthatkindofradicalhopegetsprofessionalizedoutofyou.Sothatyou'renotgoingtobethekindofpersonwholikespeaksupoutofturnanymore,becauseyouhavelearnedthestructuresandthesystemsandthehierarchies.Andthatkindofunlearningdoesn'tworkinthesamesortoftopdowngenerationalway.Right?LikethatissomethingthatIamlearningfrommystudentsallthetime.Imean,ingeneral,I'mlearningSFUinparticularseemstobeaninstitutionthatreallydrawsafairlypoliticallyradicalstudentbody.AndsoI'malwayslikeintheclassroombeinglike,here'sanideaandmystudentsarelike"takeit17stepsfurther,please.Thanksforcomingout.Youknow,TikTokissignificantlymoreradicalonthistopic.Soifyoucouldjustcatchup."

GenaZuroski: 00:52:24 You'vegotsomehomework,prof.[Laughs].

HannahMcGregor: 00:52:28 [Laughs].Yeah.Verymuch.AndIalsothink,youknow,wewere,weweretalkingalittlebitbeforeIhitrecordabout,aboutpodcastingandthiskindofsenseoflike,youknow,newmediacreationandwhatitmeanstobesomebodywhocanlikefigureouthowtouseaparticularskillsetandgetyourvoiceoutthere.Andthatissomethingthat,youknow,we,we'vegotahandfulofseniorscholarsinthefieldof,ofpodcastingstudies,butit's,

21

it'saverynewfield.Andasaskillset,alotofthepeoplewhoaregreatatitareveryyoung.Youknow,Ihavearesearchassistantrightnow,StaceyCopeland,whoIhavehiredtoworkwithmeoneveryprojectthatIhave,becausesheislikesomuchbetteraudioproductionthanIam.[Laughs].WhenIthinkaboutlike,whoneedsmymentorshiparoundpodcasting.

HannahMcGregor: 00:53:21 Itisoftenscholarswhoaremoreseniorthanme,butwhoare,youknow,haveanappetitefor,forthisskillsetandfordoingthiskindofwork,butdon'tnecessarilyhavethecomfortorthefamiliaritywiththemedium.Youknow,Idon'twantto,IfeelevenasIamarticulatingthis,thissortoflikeslidingtowardsthediscourseofthedigitalnative,whichisnonsense,likethat'sjustnothowmedialiteracyorskillsetswork.Butitis,youknow,oneexampleofthewaythat,thatwhenweexpandoursenseofthekindsofwaysinwhichwewanttobecomeskillful,theassumptionthatitmovesfromseniortojunior,latecareertoearlycareerreallygetsdismantled.Right.Becausethereare,therearemanykindsofskillsthatarenotnecessarilyassociatedwith,withseniority,Iguess.

GenaZuroski: 00:54:15 Oh,absolutely.Andlike,Idon'tknowifIshouldtellthisstoryonlikeapublicpodcast,butI'mnotgoingtonamenamessoIthinkit'sokay.Butlikeoneofmymosttreasuredmemoriesof,ofanacademicconferencewas,Iwasat,youknow,oneofthemajormeetingsofpeopleinmyfield.Andtherewasapanelof,itwasallseniormalescholars,verywell-known,youknow,thefathersofthefieldgatheredtotalkaboutcuttingedgeonlineplatformsforthekindof,ofworkthatwedo.And,youknow,it'slike,Idon'twanttobemeanbecauselike,thesearethingsthatcanhappentoanyone.We'veallbeenatconferences.Weknowhowtechnologyworks,youknow,inaconferenceroom,butlike,itreallywaslike,oneofthemcouldn'tgethiscomputertoconnecttotheprojectorsothathecouldgivehispaperonlikeusingtechnologytodisseminateknowledge.

GenaZuroski: 00:55:20 Andthenanotherone,like,youknow,wasconnectedtothewebandwastryingtofindsomethinghewantedtoshowus,butlike,couldn'tfinditontheinternet.Andsoresortedtooneofthose,likepadsofpaperonalectureboard-

HannahMcGregor: 00:55:38 [Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 00:55:38 -todrawapictureofthethinghewantedtoshowusontheinternet.AndIwaslike,thisis—like,forme,itwashilarious,butitwasalsoterrifyingbecauseIwaslike,what's,whatamIgoingtodothatitwillbetheequivalentofthisformystudentsoneday?Youknow,orlikemycolleagues.Likethisisthevision

22

ofwhatsenioritylookslikeinourprofession[Laughs].AndIdon'twanttobethat.So.

HannahMcGregor: 00:56:13 I,Idefinitelyfeellikethereisa,acursewherebyassoonasyouaresomebodywhoistalkingabouttechnologyimmediatelyallofthetechnologybreaks.AndIalsofeelI'vereally,I'vereallynoticedthiswhenIhadafriendofthepodcast,BrennaClarkeGraycometomyclasstoteachmystudentsaboutmakingGIFsandmemes.And,youknow,shewaslikeunfamiliaruniversity,unfamiliartechnologysetup,unfamiliarnotes,likethingsnotnecessarilyworkingrightaway,awebsitethat'ssupposedtoloadthat'snotnecessarilyloading,like,youknow,technologicalproblemsemergedandwatchingthewaythatshehandledthemassomebodywhosejobislike,shehasaneducationaltechnologyspecialistandacomponentofherjobislikehelpingfacultysolvethetechnologyproblemsthattheyencounter.AndIwaslike,oh,thedifferenceisyouactuallyknowhowthisworksbecauseyouhavehadtobuildthingsandfixthingsandsolveotherpeople'sproblems.Whereas,sooftenpeoplewhoarelike,"Techiscoolandgreat.AseriesofRAsbuiltthisforme.Ihaveabsolutelynoideathelaborthatwentintoit,butI'mthefaceofitbecauseIamseniorandestablished,butifsomethinggoeswrong,I'mgoingtohavenoideahowtofixit.CauseIdidn'tmakeit."

GenaZuroski: 00:57:41 Exactly.Thisisanotherexampleof,oflikeempty,meaninglesshope,right?Thatenthusiasmforourtechnologicalfuturethatiscompletelydivorcedfromanyactualknowledgeoflikethelaborinvestedintheobject,themechanismsthatmakeitwork,theideologicalconditionsinwhichthethingcametobeand,andcontinuestooperate,right?Likeifyoudon'thaveatleastaworkingunderstandingofthosepartsofthetechnology,youdon'tgettohopeforthefutureorganizedaroundthatpieceoftech.Youhaven'tearnedit.

HannahMcGregor: 00:58:29 [Laughs].Imeantheflipsideofthatisthepeoplewholiterallybuiltthethingknowingthatitwasterrible.Andthey'relike,Ikeepthinkingaboutthat,thatNetflixdocumentary,TheSocial...Something.It'scalledTheSocialSomething.Whoknows.Butthewholethingisjustlikeabunchofwhitedudeswhoarelikemajorengineersfortechnologycompanieswhoarelike,"wemadeitbadonpurpose.Weknew,weknewthatitwasgoingtoruinyourlives.Soyoushouldtrustuswhenwesayit'sverybadandyoushouldstopusingallofthesewebsitesrightaway.Weknowit'sbad.Wemadeit."

GenaZuroski: 00:59:06 "Wemadeit.It'sevil.Wemadeitevilonpurpose."

23

NewSpeaker: 00:59:09 Yeahyeahyeah."Wehavealotofmoneynowandwe'renotgivinganyofitback.Butwewilldothisdocumentarywherewetellyou,'getoffFacebook'.Anyway,I'mgoingtohoponmyyachtnow."

GenaZuroski: 00:59:20 Goodness.Ohman.Yeah.Yeah.

HannahMcGregor: 00:59:24 [Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 00:59:24 It'sallbad.It'ssobad,Hannah.

HannahMcGregor: 00:59:27 [Laughs].

Speaker4: 00:59:30 Okay.IwouldliketoendbyaskingyouaboutareallybeautifulexercisethatyouhavecreatedthatIthinklikemanyotherpeopleIhave,IhaveusedwithmyownstudentsthatIthinktiesintoalloftheseconversationsthatwehavebeenhavingabout,aboutmentorship,aboutcollectivity,aboutreframingourrelationshiptothisinstitutionandtotheworkthatwedointhewaythatwedoit.Andthatisthe,WhereDoYouKnowFrom?Exercise.CanyoutellusalittlebitaboutWhereDoYouKnowFrom,?and,andwherethatcamefrom?

GenaZuroski: 01:00:08 Yeah,yeah.Ican.AndI'mreally,I'mreallygladfortheopportunitytotalkaboutitbecauseI'vebeenfeelingveryself-conscioussinceit'sbeentakenupandit'scirculatedwidelyandI'msogratefulthatithas.AndI,youknow,Ireallylovethatpeoplearefindingituseful.ButI've,I'vebecome,self-consciousaboutmynamebeingattachedtoit,right?LikeIdon'twanttoreapacertainkindofprofessionalcreditfromitbecauseit'sactuallydesignedtolike,notdothat[Laughs]ortolikedisruptthesystemsinwhichthatcreditisworthsomething.Soit'simportantformetokindoftellthestoryofwherethatexercisecomesfrom.Whichis,Ithinkitwasin2018.Myrelationshiptotimeislikewobblyatbest.So,itmight'vebeenanotheryear.ButIthinkitwas2018BoisehostedthisonedaysymposiumonmentoringIndigenousgraduatestudentsthatIattendedwithacolleagueofminehereatMcMaster,DanielColeman.Andtheday—Imean,youknow,backtomentorship,likethatdaywasreallytransformativeformeinanumberofways.

GenaZuroski: 01:01:24 Itwas,itwasdesignedasanactofmentorshipfornon-IndigenousscholarswhoareresponsibleformentoringstudentsandhopefullyformentoringIndigenousgraduatestudents.Butinordertorunaworkshoporasymposiumlikethat,likesuchcarehadtobetakentostructureitinawaythatwassafeforthepeopleparticipating.AndEveTuckwasoneofthe

24

organizers.AndsothatwasthefirsttimethatI'deverbeeninaroomwithEveTuck.Iwasahugefanofherwork,butwatchingher,youknow,organizethatevent,thatwaslikeanexampleofmentorshipinactionthatjuststruckverydeeplywithme.And,youknow,shedidthingslikeremindingthepeopleintheaudiencenottoapproachthedaywonderingwhatweweregoingtogetfromthespeakers,buttositandactuallytakeafewminutestothinkaboutwhatwehadbroughttothissymposiumandwhatwerewegoingtogivetothepeopleonthestagewhowere,youknow,generouslygivingtheirtimeandtheirlaborandtheirexpertisetous.

GenaZuroski: 01:02:41 Andthepanelistswere,youknow,alotofIndigenousscholars,includingstudentsandthensomeother,youknow,scholarsofcolourspeaking.Soitwasanextraordinaryday.Andattheendofit,you'veaskedeverybodywhohadattendedtothinkverydeliberatelyabouthowweweregoingtocarryforward,whateveritwaswehadlearnedfromfromtheday.Andoneofthebroadtopicsthatwastalkedaboutalotwastheproblemof—Imean,I'mnotsureifanyonecalleditthisatthetime,Idon'tremember,buttheproblemofepistemicideinthe,intheWesternAcademy.And,andtherealviolencethatIndigenouspeopleexperiencewhentheywalkintospaceswheretheirknowledgeisnotrecognizedasknowledgeandwheretheexpectation,thewaytheireducationisgoingtobemeasuredandtheirprogressinaprogramisgoingtobemeasuredistheextenttowhichyoudisplaycapabilityinthinkinginanepistemological,likestructureandlanguagethathistoricallyisattachedtogenocide,youknow,liketheeliminationofyourwayofknowingandofyourwayofbeingandofliving.

GenaZuroski: 01:04:11 Andso,theWhereDoYouKnowFrom?ExerciseformecamefrommyattempttothinkabouthowIcouldopenaseminarclass.Soforme,itwasabsolutelyaboutgraduateseminars.AlthoughIlovethatpeoplehavekindofadapteditforotherpedagogical,youknow,situations.Butforme,Iwaslikeinagraduateseminar,youknow,foryearsandyearsandyears,I'vedonethethingwhereyougoaroundthetableandyousay,youknow,introduceyourselftothegroup.Youknow,whereareyoufrom?Whatdoyoustudy?WheredidyougetyourBA?Youknow,likewhateveritis.

HannahMcGregor: 01:04:47 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 01:04:47 InoneofthepanelsMinelleMahtaniactuallytalkedabouthowshehadlearnedfromKatherineMcKittrickaboutthewaythat,thatseeming—thatsmalltalkquestion,"whereareyoufrom?"landsdifferently,especiallyinacademicspaces,onpeoplewho

25

havearrivedatthatseminartable,from,youknow,non-traditionalpathways.Oronpeople,youknow,thisissomethingthatI,youknow,thatIshouldknowasa,youknow,anAsianpersonof,ofmixeddescentwho'sbeenaskedwhereareyoufrommywholelife?Andit'sa,it'saraciallychargedquestion.Right.

HannahMcGregor: 01:05:23 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 01:05:23 SoMinellesaidthatshehadlearnedfromKatherineMcKittricktoaskthequestion,"wheredoyouknowfrom?"instead.Sothat'slikealiteralquotefromKatherine.AndIwantedtositwiththequestiontothinktomyself,okay,howisthatdifferentwhenyouasksomeone"wheredoyouknowfrom?"Howisthatdifferentfromasking,"whereareyoufrom?"Whatkindsofanswersisitkindoflikeencouraging?Whatarethepossibilitiesputforwardbythatquestionthatare,youknow,notputforwardorevenforeclosedbytheotherquestion.Anditwasjustmybrainstormingaroundthosequestionsthatthematerialoftheexercisecameoutof.Andmygoalwasreallynottomakeanelaborate,likeidentityexercise,youknow.Ithinkit's,I,it'simportantformetosaythat.It'snotaboutdiversityandit'snotaboutlikegettingpeopletolikeputthefullnessoftheirdiversityonthetablesowecanalllikecelebratehow,how,—whatagoodjobtheinstitutionhasdoneoflike,includingusallhere.

HannahMcGregor: 01:06:30 Likeadiscursiveversionofthepotluck,whereeverybodybringsadishrepresentingwherethey'refrom.Yeah.

GenaZuroski: 01:06:38 Yeah.It'snotlike—Idon'twantittooperatethatway.Iwantedittobeanopportunityforustorecognizeasacollectiveintheclassthatthepeoplehere—youasthestudentshavenotarrivedas,asblankslates,right?LikeI'man18thcenturiest.IwroteaboutJohnLockeinmyfirstbook.Iknowhowharmfulthemythofliketheblankslateisright.It'sit,youknow,and,andhowitgetsappliedtoland.Right.Andhencecolonialism.Andso,like,Iwantthestudentstoknow,Idon'tseethemasemptyvesselsorblankslatesthataregoingtobefilledwithwhateveritisI'mchannelingonbehalfoftheinstitution,intothem.Iwantthemtoknow,Irecognizethem.AndIwantthemtorecognizeeachotherasintellectualagentswhoarebringingaveryparticularkindofknowledgethattheyhavegatheredonewayoranother,thattheyarealreadyexercising,tothetable.Andforustorecognizetheknowledgeineachperson,butthentheendoftheexercise,liketheconversationisabouthowdowerecognizewhatwe'vegatheredhere,right.

26

GenaZuroski: 01:07:55 It'salittlebitlikeapotluck,right?It'slike-

HannahMcGregor: 01:07:56 [Laughs].

GenaZuroski: 01:07:56 -thisisthebountyofknowledgethatwehavetoworkwithinthiscourseoverthesemester,youknow,andonlythendoIintroducethesyllabus.Soit'slike,Iwantustogatherourcollectiveknowledgeandthinkaboutitandrecognizeit,youknow,takethetimetodothatbeforeIthensay,here'swhatwe'regoingto,youknow,here'swhatI'maddingtothemixand,andgonnaaskustodo.AndI'msuretherearewaysitcangohorriblywrong,butIhaven'tencounteredthoseyet.AndI'mreallygrateful.LikeeverytimeI'vedonethis,it'sreally,it'sbeenvery,verydifferentandwe've—theconversationhasgonedifferentways,butithasalwayskindofsetthattoneofeveryone'sknowledgeis,isrecognizedhere.AndifIdon'tquiteunderstandit,that'sokay,butI,butIrecognizethatitexistsandI'mgoingtorespectit.Right.I'mgoingtointeractwithyouinawaythatisrespectful.AndI'mgoingtoletyoudeterminethetermsofthat.

HannahMcGregor: 01:09:01 Yeah.Ilovethat,thatframingoflike,letustreatthisspaceinthistimeasacollective.Andthe,oneofthefirstthingsweneedtodoisnotbelike,"whatarewegoingtogetoutofthis?"It'swhat,whatareweallbringingintoit?Whatisthenatureofthiscollective?Whatisthenatureofthecommunitywearegatheringinthespace,andthenwecanfigureoutwhatwecando.

GenaZuroski: 01:09:25 Right.

HannahMcGregor: 01:09:25 Likewe'realwaysgrapplingwiththisrelationshipbetweensortofstructureandfreedom,Ithinkwhenwedesigncourses.Butthatideaofstartingfromthenatureofthecollectivethatwebringtogetherinaclassroom,andthenseeingwhatispossibletosortofbuildoutofthatissoexciting.It'ssomuchmoreexcitingthantobelike,well,"enjoyadeathmarchthroughmypredeterminedpedagogy,everybody."

GenaZuroski: 01:09:51 Right!Like,that'snotfun.

HannahMcGregor: 01:09:54 It'sreallynot.[Laughs].And,youknow,sometimesIthinkmanyofushaveencounteredthosemomentswhenwe'relike,"havesomefreedom"andpeoplearelike,"no,thankyou.IwouldactuallyjustlikeaclearsetofinstructionsothatIcangetthisdoneandmoveon."

27

GenaZuroski: 01:10:08 Exactly.

HannahMcGregor: 01:10:08 Whichis,Ithinkalsofairinitsownway.Noteverybody'slookingtohaveatransformativeexperienceineveryclass.Sometimestheyjustneedacredit.

GenaZuroski: 01:10:17 Despoticallyfair.

HannahMcGregor: 01:10:20 [Laughs].Butit'sexcitingwhenyoucan,I'mteachingthisthesmallcohortfulltimepodcastingcoursenextsemester,thatis,youknow,thewholeideaisthatitis,itisstudentled.Thatyousortof,youknow,buildsomebasicstructureforthecourse,butthenthestudentsactuallyjustgettodecidewhatshapethecourseisgoingtotakeandthekindsofrhythmsoftheweekandthekindsofworkthatthey'regoingtodo.Andthisthinkingthat,thatyouhavebeen,youknow,sharingandhelpingtocirculate,becauseIdothinkeverythingI'vereadaboutthisexercise,Ithinkthatyoualwaysreallythoroughlyciteandsituatetheexerciseintermsof,ofwhereitcamefromforyou.Ithasreallybeenhelpingmethinkaboutwhatitmightlookliketocreate,youknow,acontainerinwhichthatworkcanhappen,that,thatthestudentscanbringthemselvesinto.Particularlyinthisweirdenvironmentwherewearetryingtocreatespacesandcollectiveswithoutactuallybeingabletositdowninaroomtogether.

GenaZuroski: 01:11:25 Iknow.Youknow,therearepossibilities,obviously,youknow,thefactthatwecansitinthisvirtualspacetogetherfromoppositesidesofthecontinentis,youknow,somethingI'mgratefulfor.ButImisssittingatthatactualtablesomuch.

HannahMcGregor: 01:11:39 Yep.

GenaZuroski: 01:11:39 Youknow,it's,it's,it'smindbogglingtomehowlongit'sbeensinceIsatatatablewithpeople.

HannahMcGregor: 01:11:48 Yeah.

GenaZuroski: 01:11:48 AndIthinkthatonceweareabletodothatagain,Imean,thisisa,thisisanimportantand,andagoodtimetoreflectonwhatgatheringatthetableisandwhatitmeans.Andalsowhatitcanmean.Right?LikeIthinkthat,like,we'regonnarecognizeitasasiteofhopeinawaythatmaybewedidn'tbackwhenitwasjustlikeroutine,right.[Laughs].Whenitwasjustdailyroutine.AndIthinkthatthat's,Ithinkthat'sgoodbecauseIthinkthatwecanmakeperhapsbetteruseofourtimetogetherattablesthanwe'vebeendoingsofar.

28

HannahMcGregor: 01:12:23 Yeah.Oh,Ican'twaituntilwecansitatatabletogetheragain,

GenaZuroski: 01:12:28 Metoo![Laughs].[Gena'sThemeSong:"HeadOverHeels"byTheGo-Go's].

HannahMcGregor: 01:12:41 YouwanttolearnmoreaboutGena'sworkyoucanfindheratZuroskithat'sZUROSKI.wordpress.com.I'vealsoincludedalinktohermixedcloudintheshownotes,whichshesayshasallhermixtapes.Idon'tevenknowwhatitmeans.I'mgoingtofindoutafterthis.Asalways,youcanfindshownotesandtherestoftheepisodesofSecretFeministAgendaonsecretfeministagenda.com.YoucanfollowmeonTwitter@hkpmcgregor,andyoucantweetaboutthepodcastsusingthehashtag#secretfeministagenda.Youcanalwaysrateandreviewtheshow.Afinalthankyoutolapine403fortheir,andIquote"posthumousreview".Thepodcastthemesongis"MeshShirt"byMomJeansofftheiralbumChubRub.Youcandownloadtheentirealbumonfreemusicarchive.orgorfollowthemonFacebook.Gena'sthemesongwas"HeadOverHeels"bytheGo-Go's.ThisepisodewasrecordedonthetraditionalanduncededterritoryoftheMusqueam,Squamish,andTsleil-WaututhFirstNationswhereI'mgratefultoliveandwork.ThishasbeenSecretFeministAgenda.Passiton.[ThemeMusic:“MeshShirt”byMomJeans]