EBG - Ep 8 - Dan Oblinger asks Do you hear what I hear

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EBG - Ep 8 – Dan Oblinger asks Do you hear what I hear? Randy Wilburn [00:00:20] Hey folks and welcome to another episode of Encourage Build Grow where we help design professionals become better leaders better communicators and ultimately better people. Randy Wilburn [00:00:31] Today I'm so excited because I have a chance to bring an individual on that I actually met. I would say probably this time last year and his name is Dan Oblinger. Did I pronounce that right? Dan Oblinger [00:00:44] It's O-bling-er, but nobody's scoring this I don't think so we're good. Randy Wilburn [00:00:48] Okay. All right. That's fine. Well I appreciate that. I like to keep my podcast fairly real so I don't want people to think I'm perfect although a lot of people do and that's not the case. So I you know I flubbed it on that but we'll get it right moving forward. But, no Dan is an outstanding individual. He's a hostage negotiator He's a keynote speaker focusing primarily on listening negotiating culture and he's also the author of Life or Death Listening. And I just was really enamored by the presentation that he did an SMPS meeting here in Northwest Arkansas last year and so we became fast friends although at least in my mind we became fast friends and I connect. Dan Oblinger [00:01:32] I can concur I can concur. We are friends. Randy Wilburn [00:01:34] Yes, I connected with Dan on LinkedIn and we just kept the conversation going from there and I think everywhere that I have gone I have attributed the active listening piece of the training that I'm doing to Dan's book and just to his overall training in general. And I just I. Anyone that will listen to me when it comes to listening and developing a listening skill set and the listening habit that stands the test of time not only for you as an individual but also for the organization that you're part of. I mean that's just the reason why I wanted to do this podcast episode So Dan I really appreciate you coming on today. How are you doing. Dan Oblinger [00:02:15] I am blessed. I am in the central part of the United States which we call the heartland. And it sure feels like the weather's great and the people are amazing. Randy Wilburn [00:02:23] Yeah I know. And that's funny. I follow you on LinkedIn as we talked about earlier and lately you've been doing a lot of thoughts from the heart about active listening in on a number of topics and I always notice that you're either out because you own a farm is that correct. Dan Oblinger [00:02:40] I live on 10 acres so my neighbors don't think that qualifies as a farm and I don't either. But if you're in New York right now you're like God dang horses and cows and pigs and no no not really. But it's 10 acres. Randy Wilburn [00:02:53] Yeah. There you go. Well my neighbors have chickens if that counts. Randy Wilburn [00:02:56] And certainly living in Northwest Arkansas I'm about as close to you as I can be in understand kind of the life that you lead. There you have a nice family

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and but you also get to travel around and you also get to save lives so why don't you just tell the audience a little bit about yourself and about your background. Because I just there's some things I want I want to make sure that we cover on today's podcast as I think this will this particular podcast will benefit everyone. And I know I'm ruining it in advance by putting that out there and I'm putting a lot of pressure on you but I'd love to just have you share with our audience your superhero origin story. Dan Oblinger [00:03:32] Yeah. Randy I tend to operate best when the bar is left low. I will do, I'll see if I can hop over the sucker. So an origin story kind of implies that maybe I have some kind of superhero underpinnings and my wife can I can definitely put that to rest. I'm just a dude and my start begins probably coming out of high school and I had a fairly uneventful. And you might even say I idyllic childhood Mom and Dad stayed together I'm the oldest of five fairly suburban upbringing good education both in high go moving wildcats and went into college thinking I wanted to go into law enforcement as a profession and then things got a little sideways. I ended up in the Roman Catholic seminary studying to be a priest which was the best year of my life. It prepared me to be an actual good human and prepare me certainly for my career. I know back in law enforcement when I left the seminary. It also got me a four year college degree in ancient philosophy and ethics which I did not intend to get did not intend to go to seminary. I did not intend to study philosophy and certainly did not intend to become a keynote speaker and corporate trainer regarding active listening. Not a lot of people get the point to one night but I can point to one particular night that probably my life took a J turn and headed a different direction. And that was when I became a police officer I was sent to the top of a parking structure in the town where I worked and there was a lady dangling off the guardrail. And what proceeded to happen was the longest hour of my life where I discovered that a lot of things actually. I discovered that I was. Good listener that I was not a good leader. I did not know myself not nearly as well as I needed to and that I also wanted to become a hostage negotiator and fix all of those deficiencies and I set off on a journey from that parking garage roof that leads me to sit here on the zoom meeting with Randy Wilburn discussing with all of you out there in podcast land about the merits of listening and leadership. So there is your origin story Randy. Randy Wilburn [00:05:37] I love it and I mean I've heard it several times and I loved it the first time at that SMPS meeting last August here in Northwest Arkansas and I love it. Love hearing it again because it reminds me that we all have to start somewhere and I think for you you had a realization that even though you were in the throes of doing something as a negotiator you still had a lot of room to grow and and it seems like you took it and ran with it. Dan Oblinger [00:06:03] And I think that's fair. But I also don't want people to think like in the movies that it's exactly what have happened. Just like "cut scene" next thing I'm a hostage negotiator and certainly on top of the parking garage I was not thinking about any of that on top of the Parking Garage. I'm just I'm playing and verbal and mental ping pong just trying to stay alive keep the ball in play doing my best which was not that great. It was the reflection post event and that's maybe the first lesson that we have for people out there. You got to reflect upon these things are happening to you at the time did I think that this woman on top of the parking garage was a gift was a blessing. No I thought this is a horrible way for my shift to end you know. But in the end it's one of the greatest blessings that has ever been given to me. She gave me that blessing of letting me work with her in that situation then realized all these deficiencies because I was I used it as a catalyst for something greater. Now the reflection has to be matched with a firm commitment of your will. I mean we have opportunities all around us that we either miss or just not willing to

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take. But I took it it took a couple of years of preparation coming out of that event to be able to get to a place where I could be a hostage negotiator compete for a spot and certainly it was a journey I mean and it was up and down it went straight up the mountain. I made some more mistakes but that process certainly can be traced back to that night on top of the parking garage. Not a lot of people get that kind of a gift or a blessing but I certainly view it that way now. Randy Wilburn [00:07:28] Yeah no I certainly I agree with you 100 percent. You know I want to talk about something that just to kind of talk about this whole active listening in piece and this is kind of where you've kind of where you've I think you've really been able to make your mark especially in the communities that you serve the industries that you speak to. I know you spent a lot of time with design firms and construction organizations and so I think that it's interesting to see that so many people have taken to your conversation about active listening and the importance of it. But could you just for my audience say Could you explain the difference. Just really quick between what is hearing in what is listening because I think the way that you broke that down for me last year was really it was perfect. And I mean the images that you showed were great but I just think this idea that a lot of times when people think they hear someone and understand them it's not necessarily the case and that there is truly a difference between hearing and listening. Dan Oblinger [00:08:30] Well I think it begins with an understanding of chickens and since you broke the poultry barrier I don't mind bringing that up now Randy. So this is the chief difference is that hearing is physiological. So it happens. It begins in our environment when sounds are created. So these waves these vibrations that happen in our environment are they land in our ear. Are your ears are designed to receive them and it activates the nerves that send impulses to the brain through experience our brain then knows what's in our environment because you know it is felt and then therefore heard these vibrations before and that's it's still amazing. I mean that's magical. But imagine the design that went into that process and yet it's not enough. I mean that process is very low value when it comes to making deep connections with people just hearing. And so that physiological process could be used if we if we organize our will and organize our focus for a process that is listening and that is something that is high value and actually the foundation for a deep connection with another human being. But listening doesn't happen in the ears or even maybe in the brain. I think listening happens in the soul. And so now all the scientists are like well we can't help you because I don't know where that is but I do know this is that there's something magical about high intensity authentic listening and we all know when we're being listened to and we know when we're just being heard and we know the difference and we far prefer to be listened to. And so one is physiological. The other one is either psychological or spiritual or I would prefer to think it's maybe a combination of both. It is something that we have to intend to do. You can accidentally hear things but. Don't think that you really accidentally listen to things and the value of the connection. For someone who listens pays so many dividends particularly when we're talking about leadership in a technical environment like design and build. Randy Wilburn [00:10:23] Now. I mean that's perfect. I love that that. And actually whenever I share some semblance of that type of idea and breaking down the difference between hearing and listening most people I see a lot of nods in the room of people that are like Yeah you're right. And I ask people all the time you know when someone's truly tuned in and listening in listening to you versus when they're just as you'd like to call it waiting for their chance to speak.

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Dan Oblinger [00:10:51] And they're well and and bring it home. So the image that you probably latched onto with the experience of having your neighbors is a chicken can hear with a high degree of fidelity. If I shake a feed bucket across my 10 acres chickens will come running. They know what it means. Just one half shake and they're all there and they're ready. But chickens don't listen. So I tell my kids be better than chickens like in almost everything right. And so hearing is fantastic and it's magical but it's not reserved for humans like all creatures with the same kind of structures in their body can hear really well in fact better than humans but what we own and what propels us forward with our community that we have which is an amazing gift the humans have is to be able to be a community creature is because we can listen really well if we want to. And chickens don't do that. So it is something that is uniquely human. Is this authentic. Understanding of making that deep connection through listening. Randy Wilburn [00:11:50] You know as I'm sitting here listen to you to share that and again I think a lot of people might miss the bigger picture here and even some people might say well you know this is great. Randy Dann is cool and all but I mean he gets paid to do this. He is working. You work in a very high stress environment. I mean if you don't listen people can die. And I mean some people would probably say Well I don't work in that type of pressure environment so maybe my listening skills don't have to be as good as dance and I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are about that. Dan Oblinger [00:12:24] Well I just got back from the dentist yesterday Randy and I've got a pretty good clean a clean bill of health. But you know what my dentist says is only floss the teeth. You want to keep. And so I say only work on the kinds of skills that you use every day. And so I regularly have people come up with what I call a common objection to the kind of listening that I advocate for. They say well I mean you're not me. I'm not a hostage negotiator. Maybe they might say you're not a top executive and they do design build industry and I will tell them that's fair enough. Now I grew up in that industry and I know well the culture. But you're right we have two different jobs. But here's the funny thing is the kind of listening that I use I used to save lives but all that means so that is been stress tested to the utmost and the kind of listening that I use as a hostage negotiator is the exact same kind of listening that I used as a landlord for all the properties I manage, as a keynote speaker, and a corporate trainer in securing contracts with major corporations. And it's the same kind of listening that I use with my children and my wife at home. It's the same kind of listening actually that I use when I'm at restaurants and I'm on public transportation and when I'm flying and sitting in the airport lounge it's the same kind of listening that I use just to strike up a conversation with a stranger and bless them and send them on their way. After five minutes of hearing their story so why wouldn't you want to use that kind of listening. It works in all those arenas. What it's really about is letting people tell their stories and what I would answer is at the end of the day is that it's life or death listening for me as a hostage negotiator. But it's life or death listening for everybody because relationships live or die on the quality of the trust that is shared with the two people in the relationship the quality the trust is completely based upon how well we connect with each other and what kind of listening we're doing for each other and what kind of empathy were demonstrating with each other. And so at the end of the day over a long enough time period it's life or death on the basis of how well we listen. Randy Wilburn [00:14:20] Yeah I mean gosh its like a million things I would love to just kind of go off. Dan Oblinger [00:14:25] I know there's only so much time on the podcast Randy.

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Randy Wilburn [00:14:28] Well there is and I'm going to pace myself because I think what I'd like to do is you know especially because again the things that we're talking about here this transcends any one vertical or any one industry right. Again what we're talking about they are life lessons that can benefit all of us. So even though my focus is for with design professionals and I want to see them become better at what they do I want to see them become better leaders better communicators. This actually benefits anyone but why don't you for the sake of our audience kind of share just a little. Just a quick glimpse into some of the most common listening sins or as you call them deadly listening sins that we encounter on a regular. Basis so that we have a little bit of language for those and understand them and I think when I when you shared last year you gave me like seven listening cents and then you had like eight I think you had like eight active listening practices ways that you can be a better active listener. But would you mind just sharing some of the active listening sins so that rather some of that wouldn't be active listening since they would just be listening since this is an active listening and active as well. Dan Oblinger [00:15:38] This is the thing is human beings are also built for habits in this is something that we all know right. All adults know this is we have habits and some of her habits are good. Which means they're beneficial and some of them are bad which means they're harmful especially to relationships. And what I've noticed in working in all industries but especially in particularly and actually in the consulting engineering. I've had a lot of opportunity to work with executives and do some coaching and I've noticed these habits. And then I notice some in myself. So let's just run through a couple of them. One would be interrupting. This is like Easy is like the easiest entry point for bad listening habits because we all hate that nobody wants to be interrupted and we all do it from time to time. And so that's when you understand OK this is a habit. It's something that we don't want to do but somehow we're compelled to do it. And a lot of it comes down to the fact that we all have a story. So in my workshops and in my keynote which you saw we talk about that's a powerful motivation to be a good listener. Is that story that everybody has. But it also that concept of everyone having a story gets in the way because you have a story. So a lot of bad listening is fueled by this desire that we have to share our own story to the detriment of other people's stories. So interrupting is a great example of that. So we're going to cut off their story to barge in with ours and it's because something that they said usually sparks our own story. And that desire to tell it and we just have to learn to be patient and set aside that urge and that's tough. That's a habit that we have to break. Dan Oblinger [00:17:05] Another one would be one upping and this is a variation on a theme. Same kind of deal something that they said and their story sparks us to share something related in our own story. And it's gonna be something that's better because that's just how human beings work and think. And so when they finish we didn't interrupt but we're gonna come back with our story instead of a further and deeper invitation into their story or an inquiry into that story that they've shared so far. We will waste that we squander that opportunity and we tell all our own and we again we diminish their story by amplifying ours. So it's a bad habit of one upping or gamesmanship where we come back with our own. And I think I've mentioned this in your class in SMPS. We talked about go to a bar and let them serve a couple rounds of alcohol and then see how much one upping is going on. It is the ultimate environment from one to upping and killing other people's stories which is sad. Dan Oblinger [00:18:00] And the last one we could talk about I think is I'll just quit daydreaming which sounds kind of weird when I first started exploring this bad habit with people. I think they often thought it was like ADHD like adult ADHD and there might be an element of that. But particularly with like technical workers and producers and like design

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build I see it. It presents itself more often as a rush to implementation or a rush to problem solving. So we hear a little bit about the story we hear a little bit about the problem perhaps from a client and then we immediately start thinking about solutions or we merely start thinking about implementing a change without listening to the entire story that listening to the entire problem and people know right away when we stop listening and they don't know that we're trying to help them. We just know that we're not listening. So that's a problem it's a bad habit and it can impact relationships. So there's just three of of seven or eight that I often talk about in my events and it all flows from this desire to tell our own story or to accomplish our mission without giving due to that of another person. Randy Wilburn [00:19:07] Yeah and I love that. Now I'll share the others in our show notes and also. Dan Oblinger [00:19:12] Perfect! Randy Wilburn [00:19:12] I will put a link to amazon so you can order life life or death listening which I would honestly recommend that every any individual listening to this podcast whether you are currently a leader or you want to be a leader. Real leaders listen and I think if nothing else Dan's book will certainly put you on that path to success when it comes to implementing stronger listening skills and help you develop and hone that. I have been one of the greatest offenders of this. But I have enough humility to know that there's always room for improvement so I'm taking the Kaizen approach to listening where I have consistently tried to get better and then when I went and sat down and heard from Dan last year I was like Oh man I need to take it up a whole another level and I'm not saving anybody's life through hostage negotiating. I am trying to impact people and I can't do that. If I don't know the "why," behind the things that they're doing and you can never know the why behind the things that people are doing unless you actively listen to them. Dan Oblinger [00:20:18] Yeah people hide their why I see that a lot of you do too link to it like every talk you'll get the why. Let your "Why" guide you let you know there are y. It's critical it is what's not mentioned enough is that people hide their "Why," they don't want to share their "Why" so somebody that's going to marginalize or contradict or invalidate their "Why." So we we hide our whys until we're sure we can trust the person and the way we know who to trust is how well they listen to us. If you've never thought about that process that's it in a nutshell and we don't verbalize that. I'm not going to say hey Randy I don't trust you because you have to listen to me that watch you listen to me authentically. Watch how fast I'll trust you. And it's it's it was a crazy process for me to wrap my head around after I get off the parking garage and I went to the gurus right in my local community. The hostage negotiators and those kinds of guys and gals. And I'm like I want to be better what should I do. Like you got to be a better listener. Well why? Because they explained the relationship of empathy trust and listening and it blew my mind. I'm like that's that. That's the process of me deciding who I'm going to be friends with in college was who would listen. Yeah but I never thought about it in those terms like yep it's a covert activity it's on an overt activity you don't gain trust by what comes to me I'm going to gain your trust by listening to you tell me your story it's it's a natural process but it's how we judge who we should trust our leaders don't take the time to develop that if they don't sincerely inquire and respectfully receive then we're never going to tell them why and that's why we as leaders that's our mission that's our calling is we have to build that relationship where people can tell us anything they need to tell us to make us better make the company better and to develop themselves and that's a high calling but it begins with what you're doing a little bit better every day that's it that's enough.

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Randy Wilburn [00:22:00] Yeah exactly yeah. And that's my that's my whole mantra. I just ordered a bunch of one of those little rubber bracelets that people wear I got some for my kids and then some for myself and I'm just giving them away and it says get 1 percent better every day. Dan Oblinger [00:22:14] That's huge. Yeah. Randy Wilburn [00:22:15] That's so huge. I'll send you one. I would love that. I my get to a video. Randy Wilburn [00:22:21] Yeah I would definitely do that. Dan Oblinger [00:22:23] Well one thing I would add there is I think you made a really nice point was that there's this relationship between listening and leadership. Leaders do listen but there's even a better way to think about it to help you get 1 percent better every day. And that is that. And there is this issue or this principle and philosophy we talk about necessity and sufficiency. And again I didn't set out to become a philosopher but all these little things that I'm like studying so I can pass a test in my sophomore year of college. I'm seeing it played out as I'm trying to make these connections with people. So listening is necessary for leadership. I don't know how you lead people unless you listen to them to find out where they're at and where they want to be. But it's not sufficient. There are other things you need to do as a leader. But listening forms the floor like that's the foundation for everything you want to do with one of those things we like problem solving. OK. Listening has a special relationship with problem solving. So again you'll see listening is the thread that is woven throughout all these different leadership activities and it is the foundation of leadership. Dan Oblinger [00:23:20] There's a little bit more you need to do beyond it but if you become a 1 percent better listener everyday I think you're also becoming a 1 percent better leader every day. And that's cool. Yeah. Randy Wilburn [00:23:28] No I like that. That's actually really good. So why don't we. Let's kind of bridge the gap here and connect the dots for active listening. What. Why don't you give us three strong active listening practices that if we could employ these. This is the start of something where and I like the way you said that building the foundation for leaders active listening proper listening properly is the foundation of the floor. So why don't you give us maybe two or three practices that can help us from that perspective. Dan Oblinger [00:24:00] Sure. I'm going to start with a question selection and question construction. We have to stop asking garbage questions and the best way to do that is get in the habit of asking high value questions. I think that if you were looking for an entry point tackle active listening skills and if you were looking for a litmus test for whether listening could actually be a skill whether it's not just the talent it's something we can actually work on the fundamentals and get 1 percent better every day that I would direct you to that. How are you asking questions. What sort of questions what type of questions are you asking and how do people respond to you when you ask a question that you think is really important. If they're blowing you off and you're not getting any deeper than just the surface. If people are giving you the minimum that they're required to give you when you ask a question then that's what's holding you back as a listener and a leader. So we have to start thinking about how we construct questions we need to start tailoring questions for the people we actually need answers from. And we have to stop asking questions to get information. That's the lowest value use for asking another human being a point of inquiry.

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It's just a little bit of information or data from them which. Interesting is in the industry that you and I both serve a lot. That is what they think the maximum they can get for asking a great question is. Well yeah I'm getting that I'm getting I'm establishing scope with my questions I'm like Yeah. But don't you want to build a relationship with that potential client or that current client in the process of establishing scope and they're like well yeah I'm like would you do that with your questions. If I say that people hide there why because they're waiting to see if you're a good listener. The principle way that they judge you is on how you ask questions of them. If you're asking sincere specific tailored questions that allow them and invite them to tell their story then you're halfway there like that's proving to them as you do it. This guy is serious. This gal is serious she asked great questions and they will tell you the why. They'll tell you the why the what the how. All that good stuff. And in the process they will trust you. So my question selection question creation is critical. The biggest shortcut I can tell you is if you ask a lot of questions that begin can you will you. Do you stop start asking questions to start with how and what. And maybe even throw in some if questions let people build out their hypothetical best for you. And I think you'll get a lot more bang for your buck with asking questions. Randy Wilburn [00:26:20] I love that. That's really good perspective. Randy Wilburn [00:26:22] What about. There was one that you mentioned and I kind of like this and I think it's the you know like one of them is the minimal encourager and it just kind of facilitating you know it's almost like saying "and," "and," you know you're trying to get more out of them where you just kind of totally just stop talking and I've done some training where I've encouraged people just to "shut up," and let them talk. I mean I don't see it that way but I do because I'm like... Dan Oblinger [00:26:52] Yeah that's it. Right. We so oftentimes prove that we're not good listeners because we talk too much or when when there's an opportunity to savor very very little we say a lot. And so minimal encourages there's really two active listening techniques that really encourage people to speak less. One is take pause but you brought up minimal encouragers so lets do that one. Minimal encouragers means conserve your energy create the impression the clear impression in somebody else's mind create that perception that they're in charge of the conversation or receiving their story. And I'm not going to be silent for most of the time because that would be rude but I'm going to as much as I can't limit my own input limit my own storytelling limit any direction I'm giving to the conversation I'm just going to encourage them to continue down the path they've chosen and I'm going to do also by the way conserve my energy in that process which is a really nice thing to do. Dan Oblinger [00:27:44] So people tell me that listening is exhausting and I'm like well you're probably talking a lot if you're simply just receiving the story and reflecting that's about as low as an energy output as you can have as an activity. So what I tell people is think of one word or two words or no words activity that you can send signals to the person telling a story that you love what you're getting at you want to hear your more so nodding and smiling qualifies as a minimal encourager an open body posture that qualifies as a minimal encourager saying Yeah okay. Mm hmm. Those are all minimal encourages you can actually say while they're talking and you're not interrupting at all you're fueling the fire right you're you're pushing the story forward in the direction they already want to go. One of the most powerful applications of the technique I learned from my negotiations partner he started to figure this out in interviews. We started apply it to negotiations we were doing that when somebody says something that's really emotionally intense and it could be really let's say sad. So if something is super sad they tell us something is really depressing. We learn to just simply say wow with the right inflection just wow. And if somebody told us

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something was really encouraging and we wanted to give them a positive reward for it without again changing the direction of anything we would say wow it's the same word said in a way that matches the emotions that shows that we understand without saying hardly anything. We just said one word. And what we found was people reacted to that so strongly and positively as long as we match the emotion with our inflection. They would tell us way more about that side of the event. So if it was something super depressing and we said "wow," they'd be like yeah you get it and they would talk away more about those depressing events or again if it was positive they talk a lot more about that positive aspect of their life. And that's a minimal encourager at its best. It says I understand this, I get it. It says, "Tell me more!" And all he said was wow. Randy Wilburn [00:29:41] It sounds so easy. It really does. Dan Oblinger [00:29:44] Well Randy you know me it has to be simple. I'm not going to be able to pull it off right. I love that. No it's perfect. Randy Wilburn [00:29:53] So you know and I want to kind of move on from this because I think we've discussed this topic and again it is an important topic and I'd be curious to know for those that are listening. What are some of the the biggest or just. One offense that you see over and over again especially in design firms when it comes to this this whole strategy of trying to be more proactive or more active listener. What is one of the biggest offenses that you see take place. Quite a bit that could actually be solved. Dan Oblinger [00:30:26] Well I think there's a good one. It encompasses a lot of the bad habits that I see in listening. And what's the reason why I'd like to talk about this especially in the design and engineering kind of setting is that the kind of folks that really excel at the technical design oriented professions are already set up to have immediate success as good listeners if they ever could hear this explicated it like they could just hear me lay this out. If you're listening right now and you're an engineer this is for you or in almost all the problems in listening come from what we call associative listening. So I'm listening to your story Randy and I hear myself when you talk you've got kids I've got kids man there's something in somebody's story that will always activate our own. We are constantly looking for ourselves in our environment. So in the process of receiving some a story you'll hear something that makes you think about your own story and then you'll want to tell it. And it's because we're constantly listening for ourselves and that story if all we did was simply switch our mindset and that I'm now my mission is to listen to your story and not think about mine but to analyze be analytical about your story and think about OK what are they not telling me. What is the main idea. What are the emotions that you are communicating to me as you tell the story. And engineers are set up for analytics like they understand that process and they're great at being analytical. So just apply the analysis to feed back into the other person's story and all of a sudden they can do all eight active listening skills very well and they're no longer tempted to interrupt and one up and do all these other activities that flow out of the analysis of looking for my own story and yours. And so that's a it's a simple but difficult concept to pull off. But once you do you're already a better listener. Randy Wilburn [00:32:15] Yeah. That's quite a bit. I mean that gives people some homework to think about in terms of how they get themselves together. Randy Wilburn [00:32:21] And again my encouragement for anyone listening to this simply is you know just like what Dan is laying out some of the groundwork. I mean it's just all you have to do is practice at this work at it understanding getting rid of the word but and

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using the word and as much skill while figuring out the little things that make a big difference. You know I loved you talked the other day in one of your posts and I'll put your LinkedIn profile and their show notes as well because I think anybody worth their weight that wants to get better at this needs to follow Dan especially on LinkedIn because his videos his simple thoughts you know three to four minutes are legendary and they really have they've been they have helped me become much more informed in this area and I'm honestly anyone that will listen to me. And I'm using air quotes now I try to share this information with them and I'm always attributing it to Dan into what he's kind of exposed me to because we all know about it. We've all talked about this before and the fact that we need to be proactive about engaging people and really looking into their eyes and understanding what they're all about. And you know I just think it's it's a way for us to continue to get better. And there's certainly room for improvement for every one of us for all of us on this planet much less just the people that are actually listening to this podcast. So I hope you take what Dan said and start to apply some of these lessons because they can be a game changer both in your organization as well as in your home and listening doesn't stop when you leave the office. No it does not. It continues. Dan Oblinger [00:34:02] In fact should improve. Right. I mean it should be better at home. That's right. Yeah. One of those things you should be doing a better at home. Randy Wilburn [00:34:07] Yeah. That is the idea. "So did you hear a word that came out of my mouth? " Is one of my wife's favorite questions and that you have to be careful with how you respond to that. And certainly now I absolutely take the time to listen. I mean I always have I mean 19 years in. I mean you learn how to listen especially if you're married and you have a son. Even some semblance of a successful marriage. But even if you're single you know you work on this it will be a difference maker for you. And people will honestly want to be around you. I think that's the other benefit too. Is that a true listener is never lonely. Do you agree with that. Dan Oblinger [00:34:45] Oh I gather there's so many stories around this Randy and nobody gets I shouldn't say very few people get an honest and earnest invitation to tell their story every day. And those stories that are just like welling up and want to come out like they're just waiting for the invitation. Yeah and if you just make a habit of that you'll have I guess what this is maybe this is it is who needs. To be a better listener. Like who are my clients who are my ideal customers. Well it's anybody that wants a deeper relationship with human beings. If you don't have any need for deeper relationships with human beings the ones you already have are any future ones you'll develop then you don't need anything that I'm giving away for free on LinkedIn. You don't need that. But I don't know who that is. Yeah I think we have an epidemic of loneliness currently in our society and I think this might be a remedy. So I would offer people like you and either some other folks that are ambassadors of good listening we're on LinkedIn. I look at my LinkedIn feed as as supplying vitamins listening vitamins everybody it has to be something you do every day to recommit every day to be a better listener. You need to get a little bit of more knowledge every day too. And it's free and it can't hurt. So yeah. Connect with me on LinkedIn. There'll be a video Sunday's it'll be an article another and might just be a funny post a story of somebody that I got their story from and I thought was very valuable and that it had a good outcome. And that's it. And there everybody gets fed for the day. Randy Wilburn [00:36:10] Yeah that's perfect that's a perfect segue and I know that you keep great company because actually we have a mutual friend in Kwame Christian who is a great guy.

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Randy Wilburn [00:36:18] Yeah and Kwame is a great guy. We were just together at the podcast movement event in Orlando. But anyway I just I say all that to say that you you've actually attracted a nice group of people that are part of your sphere that all are practicing the same things that you're practicing and are making a difference and I want to I want to ask you this quick question. As we close out and I know that some people I've heard of like Chris Voss from the Black Swan Group an absolutely amazing guy he is an amazing guy who wrote the book "Never Split the Difference. Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It." I read the book and I listened to the audio book version of it. I really enjoyed it and I'm just curious as to what he's kind of put on a much larger level he's put this whole idea of understanding negotiation, understanding the importance of listening on the map so to speak and I wonder has that helped or benefited you at all in what you're doing. Dan Oblinger [00:37:17] That guy is a trailblazer so he you know he is he's a legend in our community. He's from the FBI. I don't hold that against them. No just kidding. I'm from the FBI school. They trained me to be a hostage negotiator at the end of the day that I follow what he helped develop and then espoused. So in that sense strictly speaking just my primary profession I owe a lot to him and his colleagues. And then in the sense of the side hustle right making the jump from public sector to private sector. Absolutely. How many corporations would value negotiations training or active listening training if they had not been exposed to this concept before. So all the time I guess it would be easy if I had like a huge bruising ego that people mentioned another hostage negotiator. I'm like Well I'm better and while. I don't think I am necessarily. This is what I know is that guy is an ambassador of things to make humans better and so are you and so are Kwame and so am I. And we could name and I hate to leave anybody out so I'll just stop there are so many other great guys and gals especially on LinkedIn like we're all on the same team in that sense. So I don't begrudge him at all and it's made it easier for me to make money for my family because there's now value in our culture assigned to building consensus and building deep connections with people. There's an ROI there that probably didn't exist before people like Chris Voss were out there showing the value of negotiation principles and listening as a parcel and part of the Negotiations. So nothing but respect for that dude never met him by the way I've read his book and I've been through the courses that he helped create. That's the amazing thing about the fraternity and sorority of our profession. Randy Wilburn [00:39:01] Yeah and of course he was a trailblazer of sorts and I love what you said because essentially that the essence of what you said is is a phrase or term that I use all the time and I remind every single person about this is that your gift makes room for you and there's always going to be an opportunity for you to flex yourself and do the things that you are good at doing. And so Dan you are definitely good at what you do as a hostage negotiator but you're also a great keynote speaker and you're you're in also an amazing author and I just really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to come on the Encourage Build Grow podcast. I really appreciate it. Dan Oblinger [00:39:41] Can I leave everbody with one last thought. If you become a better listener you very well could save a life. I just want to say that you may not know it like I know it because there's people all around us that are really hurting and if you received their story today you might change their mind in a way that he had no idea they were looking for one t connection today. And if you provide it just because you have a habit of everybody you meet that day checking in with them and making it that deep connection with. Simple as a smile or a joke. "How are you doing today?" Asked in a way that actually deserves an answer. You might save a life and you might never know it but I think that happens way more often than people think in our society. So go out there and be

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motivated by that thought. Thanks very much for having me on Randy I think you're doing an amazing thing for the podcast and I'm happy to be a small part of it. Randy Wilburn [00:40:28] Oh man I appreciate that and I've got to figure out a way that we can do some more but I'm not going to be greedy I'll take what we've got for now and start small. Dan Oblinger [00:40:37] Yes one percent every day baby. Randy Wilburn [00:40:39] Exactly. We'll see where we go from there. But Dan Oblinger thank you so much for being on the Encourage Build Grow podcast. We really appreciate it if people want to reach you. What's the best way for them to reach out to you. Dan Oblinger [00:40:51] I think LinkedIn is such a robust program and platform just hit me up on LinkedIn. If you're not a LinkedIn person I'm not going to make you hop on there to reach me. You can reach me at [email protected]. I would wager that Randy put a connection there on the show notes. Randy Wilburn [00:41:08] Yes everything will be on the show notes even a couple of links to some of these really cool videos that you did and just that one the other day talking about empathy really got to me as well so I really appreciate that but yeah I'll put all that information out there and I want to expose everybody to Dan Oblinger. Randy Wilburn [00:41:26] I think you'll be better for it because of it. And you know that's worth the price of admission. So thank you so much Dan I really appreciate it. And I'll see you really soon. Dan Oblinger [00:41:37] Thanks Randy. Be blessed. Randy Wilburn [00:41:38] There folks. There you have it. Another episode of encouraged build grow. Randy Wilburn [00:41:43] I'm your host Randy Wilburn and I got to tell you I was blown away by this episode with Dan again I had had a little bit of Fan Boy in me just spending time talking to him and in hearing just about his experiences and just having him share a little bit about on active listening and how to be a better listener. I hope we took something away from this and I would really appreciate it if you would take some time out when you are visiting our site and EncourageBuildGrow.com to leave a message in the comments section for this episode and let us know what you thought about this. Let us know what did Dan share with you that really moved you and we'd like to share that with our audience so we really appreciate it. We appreciate you and we will be back next week with another episode from Encourage Build Grow and remember I want to remind you our focus here is always going to be the same thing. We're helping to develop better leaders better communicators and ultimately better people. Randy Wilburn [00:42:38] I'm your host Randy Wilburn and I will see you next week.

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EBG - Ep 8 - Dan Oblinger asks Do you hear what I hear