CLIENT : University of the Witwatersrand Historical Papers ...€¦ · Wits University - Historical Papers Kobus Mostert A3079/B09 INTERVIEWER: Interview with Kobus Mostert in Cape

Wits University - Historical Papers Kobus Mostert

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CLIENT : University of the Witwatersrand – Historical Papers SUBJECT : Kobus Mostert IDENTIFICATION : Tape 09 CONTACT PERSON : Michele Pickover DATE : 15 November 2008

Please note:

1. When typist is unsure of names, speakers will be identified by title. 2. Transcriptions are typed verbatim, and typist, when unsure of jargon,

industry terms or individual’s names, will type phonetic spelling followed by (unsure)

3. Experienced a lot of background noises, similar to factory noises making some of the interview difficult to hear and causing inaudible.

For queries, please phone Barbara, Ramkiki, 082 571 1203


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INTERVIEWER: Interview with Kobus Mostert in Cape Town on August 13th …

shall we start from the beginning.

KOBUS MOSTERT: I was born in Johannesburg in 1968 the 4th June

…Primary School in Johannesburg, up until standard one, and then we went to

school in Namibia. We studied Tsumeb…I was at school there until standard

four…then we moved to Kombat which is as small little town between Utapau

and Grootfontein…we were there for four years and then we moved back to

Tsumeb, I did my High School in Tsumeb…and then I joined the Namibian

National Defence Force basically.

INTERVIEWER: That was the National Service.

KOBUS MOSTERT: Yes that was National Service, yes. I did my National

Service; I started out in Orsoma Base which is close to Okahandja which was

infantry school basically. But I didn’t like the setup there so after about four days

they did the parachute battalion selection and so I went for the selection and they

picked 27 of us…we went down to Bloemfontein on our own, South Wester’s and

we did basics there round about the 16th January…and then we went to

Oudtshoorn because we were now basically the junior leader group for South

West African Parachute Battalion…1 Swaswes [?] so we went down to

Oudtshoorn and we did our Jls there and then when the okes did their border

phase in Oudtshoorn we went back to parachute battalion to do the PG course

and the jumping course…and after that we went back to Oudtshoorn just to finish

up and do meteric [unsure] and get rank and get posted out to which ever unit.

But then they did a pre-selection where they actually wanted guys …because


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ops Marilo [?] was in full swing…so they wanted to know if there were any guys

who were willing to go to the border, any unit on the border, to relieve these guys

basically…so myself and Jors van den Berg we were the first two volunteers

…we said lets go to 32 …and they picked us and they took eight more guys…

INTERVIEWER: When did you first hear about 32 Battalion?

KOBUS MOSTERT: My cousin told me.

INTERVIEWER: And what did you think about it at the time?

KOBUS MOSTERT: I saw a bit of 32 on the TV in my school years, like in

standard eight or nine, and my cousin told me, because my main aim was to join

reconnaissance, but he said to me it’s a whole different ball…because he was in

One Rec…and he said no its…if its not really in my mind to do this type of work

and he explained to me that you are in the bush for long times on your own

…you have to basically work in the sticks….if you are looking for action

satisfaction…

INTERVIEWER: So at one point you were deciding whether you wanted to join

Recce’s or 32 Battalion.

KOBUS MOSTERT: After my cousin convinced me, he said to me…my Dad

was in the Army in 1961 so he was always a military type of guy…he always said

you are not going to the Police Force after you leave school so I was always

going to go to the army, I just didn’t know which unit so my cousin actually …he

sort of convinced me if I got in at the right unit and you can go, and you can pick

a unit, then pick 32 Battalion because the experience that you will gain and

gather….so when I joined the army I was very …you don’t have any direction in


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your life and you just want to go and play around…I wasn’t going to go and study

I wasn’t made to go and study, definitely not. I was going to join the army, so

after Brigadier Gert Nel said listen here you got 32, you can go. We arrived in

Buffalo much earlier; we got a rank a month earlier before the other guys got

rank and so we basically got rank before the other guys in Oudtshoorn. So they

put us on the plane and from Windhoek we drove with the 300 up to Rundu

where the main headquarters of 32 Battalion was. There we met a very

interesting man …Jan Hogardt he was the 2IV of the unit at that stage. Basically

the welcoming committee, it wasn’t a welcoming committee it was ‘n “uitkak

parade” like what the fuck are you doing here…we didn’t ask for you, that type of

thing…so next day they put us on a truck and we went through to 32 at Buffalo

and we arrived there in the afternoon late and they said we were going to the

training area for orientation…to get to know what the unit is all about …how they

work, how they operate and there were also the new intakes, the recruits…so we

basically …we were like recruits all over again, although we had rank it meant

fuck all in their eyes because you don’t know what you are doing here. So

everything that we learnt in Oudtshoorn, how you do attacks and formations and

stuff that went out the window because these guys had a different way of doing it

and it was awesome…it was brilliant, it made sense, everything that they taught

us and there was Piet van Eeden was our instructor…Staff Sergeant Piet van

Eeden and a brilliant guy…he has got all the savvy up there he knows

everything….

INTERVIEWER: What did they teach you differently….from what you learnt.


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KOBUS MOSTERT: For instance in Oudtshoorn they concentrated on a

formation…like a spear formation…you got two guys up as reconnaissance and

you got you spear formation here so if you hit contact from either side you just

open flanks…but in 32 they taught us the box formation…is the best…its either

the box formation or closed box. So from whichever flank you get attacked you

just open this flank…or you open your right or left hand flank or you close the

box…like in areas where SWAPO work, because they used to run in at the back

of the box…so you cover all your sides like you are in a castle basically.

INTERVIEWER: Interesting that you say castle, because that formation was

first developed probably in the 15th Century by Swiss Mercenaries.

KOBUS MOSTERT: Serious…and it works.

INTERVIEWER: Maybe they used pikes instead of AK47’s…

KOBUS MOSTERT: That’s it….but anyway and also the language, a lot of the

troops …there were like ten percent in the platoon who could speak a bit of

English, the rest was all Portuguese but we …it was a bit of an eye opener

because we thought we could learn Portuguese…next week end you wake up

and you know the language…and it took me basically three years to get onto a

bush Portuguese level, so…and then they deployed us after those two weeks

back to Rundu and then we moved with Unimogs across the River…up to

Mavinga in Molino…but we never got to see Cuito or any of those places, we

were ten guys that were rookies, newts that went up there in the bush, we had

gyppo guts, “kakked” our lungs out and we slept in the bush for about a month

and half….


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INTERVIEWER: And the Angolan’s that were there with you were new recruits

as well?

KOBUS MOSTERT: Some of them yes…only a couple of them because the

recruits that we were training in the training area, they weren’t battle ready, to call

it that way, they were only going to be incorporated into the companies the

following year. We are talking about November / December 1987…and what

basically then happened is the guys came back from the bush and we all joined

them back in the base and I think it was January or February we were

incorporated into our companies and I went into Delta Company Platoon number

ten …Platoon Commander and our Captain at that stage was Jurk Human but

then he left and J de Vos… he became our Company Commander…but anyway

he did…our platoon was platoon number twelve and Andre Bouwer became

platoon number eleven. Then they picked my platoon and [inaudible] platoon to

go up with Cactus…it’s a …basically it’s a ground based missile mobile unit that

they use to shoot the Migs with…its an anti-aircraft missile weapon and that was

the first time that they actually deployed in Angola so we were there basically to

protect them and it was a long journey up there because these things got

hydraulic and you had to cut trees and all that stuff, so we went up with them and

deployed in a Shona…we dug ourselves in, in a hill, to protect these guys but

they were “blou koppies”….pilots, those type of guys…and they knew shit about

bush…but anyway so the first three days nothing happened…and then we

thought…we started playing cards and we were about 24 kilometres away from

Cuito Cuanavale and nothing is going to happen here whatsoever…so the third


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day they shot the one Mig but the Mig…there was one at the bottom and one at

the top, so they shot the bottom one and the top one obviously spotted us and

from there on for the next two days they bombed the crap out of us…they shot at

us, they bombed us, but they never knew exactly where we were…and so we

had to move out of this area, it was getting too hot…

INTERVIEWER: Did you have any casualties or anything.

KOBUS MOSTERT: No none, we dug foxholes, but actually not down like this,

it was actually like an attack bend.

INTERVIEWER: Like a dassie burrow.

KOBUS MOSTERT: Yes…we…the hole area was full of holes and whatever,

so Villier moved…he was with us the Company Commander he moved TT out of

the area and I was to follow them…so he took all the “lugmag outjies” and they

ducked with the cars and basically late sundown. I waited until the next morning

and then only I came…then one funny part…we were in the Shona, and I had a

driver from Kempton Park, a young whitie on the Qwe and it had a big playboy

on it …this thing had no breaks it had no 6 x 6 and the exhaust was broken, it

sounded like a V8 truck…but this thing had speed, so we were in the middle of

the Shona and he was flooring it so there is huge dust and everything…you can

drive like that, but I was a rookie I didn’t know shit…and Villier radioed and said

Mossie I hope you are not in the middle of the Shona…stick to the side of the

Shona…bundu bash a bit because the Migs are going to pick you up, and the

next moment the whole troop shouted Migs, Migs, Migs, and there were two Migs

coming down on us but they didn’t spot us but we thought they spotted us so I


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said to the driver just go for the bushes because we are going to die …and as we

drove into the bushes behind us the troops are jumping off and falling their gats

off in the bush but luckily they just went past us. But everywhere in the field you

could see all these round circles, burnt circles where they bombed in the

Shona…and then we were stationed in the Kusu Islands…we dug ourselves in

there again …it was a bad position, these guys were not going to shoot Migs

down from there because we had to cut out trees and it’s a bit, you are giving

yourself away your position…and I am getting to the end of this story now…and

then what happened was also a funny thing…first time anyone shot at me was at

this spot…it was about four o’clock in the morning, we got coms that there was a

whole Battalion of FAPLA and they were looking for us so we had to pack up.

Now all my guys were dug in and these guys were right at the back of us…we

were like on a slope down on the hill…the TT was this side of the road and I was

this side…and the next moment the shit hit the fan…there were tracers and flares

and …but my guys didn’t shoot…I was still busy folding up my sleeping bag and

the bark started flying around me, so I just jumped into a hole next to my

Sergeant Jakee Bovingo [?] and I asked him why aren’t we shooting…and he

said we must just wait he thinks its UNITA…we can’t shoot now he thinks its

UNITA and all the guys just waited…these guys were shooting the “kak” out of us

…no one got shot but …and then my one Corporal Robeiro he was very close to

the firing line on this side …so he just emptied the magazine into the bush and

he actually shot two of them and they started running away, so it was

UNITA…because the whole time we shouted [inaudible] and they shouted back


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“but who are you” …you know what I am saying, so it was…and these guys just

knew that it was UNITA …the way they were firing, there was no mortars…and

obviously the air force guys they all just went down the road, they ran like hell.

Not on vehicles, they lost rifles, binoculars that we picked up because we came

in the morning when it got light; we started picking up all the “trommels” and stuff

that they left behind.

INTERVIEWER: Did you give them back?

KOBUS MOSTERT: Yes we gave it back to them.

INTERVIEWER: But that’s an interesting story because from what the

Angolan’s from what 32 told me, they didn’t get along very well with UNITA…did

this cause some tension later.

KOBUS MOSTERT: It did…there is another story…after we basically went

back to Mavinga they trooped us back and we went on base leave…we just

rested for two weeks which was nice.

INTERVIEWER: At Buffalo base?

KOBUS MOSTERT: Yes, the guys don’t even wash when they get back, you

just pass, it was nice, and there was no …there weren’t strict rules and stuff, that

you had to polish your boots at least….but the guys drilling wise, as long as the

guys performed …it wasn’t a glamour story of you have to be perfectly based and

salute and all that stuff. That was the normal army stuff that we did, but it wasn’t,

we weren’t supposed to be clean and shiny. The guys did the work and that was

it…they way you acted in base…one thing …if you fucked up in base and you

were drunk all the time, we caused a lot of “kak” and we made “kak” but as long


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as you don’t fuck up in the bush…then everything is fine. We went back and I

think we started ops Hooper and Pecker …that part was Hooper and then Pecker

and then we did two [inaudible] basic camps…the base just before Cuito

Cuanavale and our Reconnaissance teams went in and …the guys were all dug

in basically…it’s a free base before you get Cuito Cuanavale itself across the

bridge, it was like a small base before that…you cross the Shamvingo River and

you saved it in a day…you get dry and the next morning at about four o’clock you

started advancing to the base…and while we were getting ready, Ian and I were

talking to each other and another trooper and the next minute a shot went

off…but right behind us….we had an ex pilot and they actually shot his finger

off…his gun went off and he shot his finger off, and everyone said he didn’t want

to go into battle that’s why he….but anyway when we did the roll call there, there

was also two guys missing from Delta Company…one was José, I cant

remember …Batisda….they stayed behind with the vehicles and forgot to wake

up and that type of thing, but they didn’t go with. So we are advancing towards

the base and our artillery is throwing an illumination on the target…now obviously

so that we could see the base…but about five kilometres away from our guys we

UNITA was staging with 120 ml mortars…so they saw the illumination and they

thought hell there is illumination on the target, they will also “gooi” a couple of

mortars. So they “gooi” mortars and it opened right at the top of us, so it was

like daylight now…so gone was all the surprise and these guys were actually

leaving their trenches when the illumination opened up. There was a bit of small

arms fire so we went down and as we went down Delta Company was on the left


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flank…I was running from between ten, eleven and twelve…and as we went

down one corporal had a flare in his ground…and as he went down that flare

went off…into the ground so now it was a cannon in a dark room…so I was

jumping on this thing and “gooing” sand on it to get it to ….to distinguish the flare

because its an illumination flare and when I got up…because I had been looking

straight into it, I was blind, I couldn’t see “shit” so only from the part of my eyes…I

actually had to lead myself with the troops while we were advancing

them…getting up in advance, so we eventually got in…just before we got to the

trenches the sun was coming up and there was a truck which Louis Lombard

shot out with an RPG7…shot the one truck out, then we went across, there is like

a dry bed, we went into the trenches so we jumped into their trenches and now

its daylight….now these guys obviously knew we were …word had got out to

Cuito that these guys are [inaudible] and at about…I reckon from about eight

o’clock that morning and until about four o’clock that afternoon…they bombed us

with everything that they had. The one…we had thirteen wounded…and my one

friend Andre Bouwer he actually went to jump into a fox hole and they were busy

flying troops down there…fixing them up and patching them up and the next

moment we just heard this sound and woop as you looked down there is a mortar

stuck about a meter away from me into the ground, but it was too soft …the

ground was too soft so it didn’t go off…and that was quite funny. We had a

Captain who was supposed to collect maps and stuff, pick up from the enemy

and this guy was loaded ammunition wise…up to his ears and he was

dehydrating quite fast…he was very overweight…I cant remember the guy and


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so he jumped into my foxhole…I had dug one under a big tree so you can stay

there the whole day…

INTERVIEWER: Next to a human bomb.

KOBUS MOSTERT: Yes, but anyway so after the bombing and stuff slowed

down our tanks advanced so we had to “gooi” smoke …red and green for the

entry point for our tanks, but UNITA …now obviously we camouflaged …we were

all black…okay black is beautiful…and we got up to like hullo come and relieve

us, we want to leave this place its too hot here…that was in the afternoon, and

then UNITA saw us and they started opening fire on our guys and the shot TT

…two shots in his “staaldak” he actually got shot in his staaldak…we couldn’t

return fire because then we would confuse the guys on our tanks, that we are not

32 we are the enemy, so we had to…

INTERVIEWER: Why did you need a firing [inaudible]

KOBUS MOSTERT: They saw the camouflage…

INTERVIEWER: Okay, so they were confused.

KOBUS MOSTERT: They got confused, they thought it was SWAPO I mean

FAPLA.

INTERVIEWER: So at this stage you had more contact with UNITA than…

KOBUS MOSTERT: With UNITA than with the actual enemy. Except for the

enemy bombing us with flames and …so eventually we “gooi” smoke again and

now we are pinpointing our position for the guys in [inaudible] but at that stage

there was also Migs starting to fly over…and we had to leave this area they were

going to bomb the shit out of us…so we [inaudible] the tanks and the tanks


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moved in and we started pulling out, so we were in a long single file and we just

started walking…out of the area because the bombs were falling all over the

show. So we left, we walked out and myself, Eugene Rheeder, my Sergeant and

another troop we stayed behind with this fat Captain…because he couldn’t walk

anymore he was completely …he was parked out….so we had to…we left the

base for about three kilometres and we were out of troop and then we had to put

him under a bush or whatever, so we said there is UNITA but its not far from

here…so we walked to the base it was about six kilometres …then we will come

back with stretchers and stuff to come and help him, so we must look after this

guy, so we stayed there and looked after they guy and put a drip in, but the

whole time he wanted to bend his arm and we were finding flies in his nose and

ears and in your ears…it was a “kak” situation…we didn’t want to stay there

because its still a hot area…and Eugene was protecting the one flank and myself

the other one…I was standing with the guy and the next moment there was a

UNITA truck on the way, so Eugene spotted them and said we can’t make a

sound…if they are going to see us in the bush …then even though Black is

beautiful or whatever, they are going to think we are FAPLA …and these guys

passed up about ten metres from us…and this guy was making noise and I

closed his mouth. So they walked past us and they didn’t pick us up…because if

we jumped up and said hullo…they were FAPLA …so eventually these guys

came back later, it was dark already and they sent troops back with stretchers

and stuff and we carried this guy back to base…. So that was the end of that

trip…this was trooper one…and trooper two we had to be dumped from the tank,


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elephant tank…Delta Company was in front and then Echo and Foxtrot was

inside. What they basically did was they deployed us on top of the tanks…five

on a tank…so if we made contact you could jump off the back…not on the side,

so we were also going to do a early morning attack like first light…and we were

lined up and ready to go and then they said …as we were supposed to go

in…they called us off the tanks and said no its going to be a daylight attack they

are going to send UNITA in because they were scared that we were going to lose

bodies….and when UNITA hit the first contact there they jumped off the side of

the tank, they lost about five or six guys on the 80’s…that’s personal

mines…they then jumped off the back on the tracks and so we didn’t go in…then

basically after that we went back to platoon itself, walking companies and then

we went out on reconnaissance basically…we were …we could see Cuito

Cuanavale or whatever…and myself and Andre went up …there was this huge

tree and we had this Captain from the artillery …he was bringing in fire from

Kuito …selected fire, and we had to move for two days…he had to go back so

we just sitting there doing nothing so Wally Frey one Captain asks us but cant

you give us any targets…we said but we …we don’t know what to call

coordinates and all that stuff, the type of lingua they are using …he said no fine,

just plot something on the map…you have got a map, you have got

binoculars…plot us a target we are going to shoot something. So we plotted a

couple of …we could see like there is a vehicle in the bush, you could see the

place of a window…then we targeted this one bush…and said okay we did some

fire…”battery bestoking” so we chopped the define and afterwards there was


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black smoke screens and so it was the end of “stokers” basically. Then the

Captain came back and we pulled out. That was the end of that and then we

went through …we did another ops …where we worked through to

Ruacana…[inaudible] but before we did Ruacana they deployed us at Dechiba

[?] we worked in that area there and we basically just patrolled the area and we

laid a couple of ambushes…nothing happened. Then we got back to …we came

through Calueque where they shot those guys, pipe line was bombed…and there

were a couple of guys who died in a Buffel…we just walked our “gats” off in the

time we were there…I actually stayed behind for about a week….[radio news

interruption] now there are major courses moved out and you cant stay there so I

had to catch up with the guys…they gave me all their food and water and stuff,

because they were going to do forty kilometres and then they were going to be

on the border, so I just basically followed them and then we went to

Ruacana…we went across the border on Ruacana side …Andre actually…his

company was attacked there by FAPLA and BRDM’s and T55 Tanks and Andre

had to go through without a tank with the RPG7’s and as he came across the hill

he just heard this huge noise behind him and this T55 tank was actually behind

him…so he took one wild shot in the dark and him and his troop went running

down the road and they took a shot at them and shouted, “afandla, afandla” don’t

shoot the caxton[?] …and his troop actually fell, went back and picked him up

and then they carried on going, so we worked out an area where we planted

mines …when the BRDM hit the mine that was when there was a bit of chaos

because FAPLA were coming down the road across from the dam advancing to


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our positions…we were based on the hillside…there are rock foundations

whatever, its very rocky and we had a good view of what was going on…but then

they pulled us out there, or they basically stopped and they went back there after

BRDM [inaudible] so they didn’t advance towards us ..And that was that

trip…and then we did [inaudible]

INTERVIEWER: This is during the peace negotiations?

KOBUS MOSTERT: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: How was that, suddenly you had to work alongside your…

KOBUS MOSTERT: We had to build up a profile of the platoon commander on

the FAPLA side…we had to build up a profile where does he come from and the

troops and whose area do they operate…this guy was actually, although he was

in FAPLA he was actually a SWAPO…he was an Konyama…and he was in

those areas where I also was with beacon seven…we actually knew that area

back to front…and as we chatted with them and played soccer with them …on

the soccer field there because it was boring. In the morning we would go on

patrol and one side would come back, and the next morning we would take patrol

just to look for tracks and stuff…I think the whole joint military originally was

more a show of we are better than you …because we had nice tents and we had

two Buffels and I had a nice radio and we got good food, we got extra…we used

to fly in once a week a chopper with ice cream and a TV and Video and…so it

was like a sort of a show off…if you want to call it that way.

INTERVIEWER: But let’s back track for a second here…because now you are

working under UN Mandate right…I mean there ad been a ceasefire …were you


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surprised when you heard this was all going to happen.

KOBUS MOSTERT: One thing that I did forget, when SWAPO came across

the border, no that was only afterwards….sorry. They said that we were coming

to an end and that will negotiate and …obviously yes because …

INTERVIEWER: How did you feel about this were you happy that this was

going to happen …

KOBUS MOSTERT: No, I thought it was absolute bullshit because why if you

look at the unit’s tree…all the names knocked to that tree, for what reason…was

it …were we just there to test the weapons…make Armscor make better

weapons…we just have to test the shit…you know what I am saying…there was

no cause behind it at all whatsoever…now I am not going to get into any political

discussion or whatever, the way I just …because its nice being in the army …it

really gave you balls, it gave you direction, you were this little boy who was piss

willy at school and now all of a sudden you are making decisions that a Bank

Manager in Absa …you have more responsibility than him…and you are 18

years old…now that very …it lays a foundation …if after that you still fuck around

and you still fall apart or whatever, then you know what I am saying…it gives you

backbone and I am not just saying this because I was 32 …I think anyone if you

joined the army at least it gave you discipline…look at today’s kids…they are

[interjected]

INTERVIEWER: Obviously there were some political objectives behind the

war… did you feel that ….

KOBUS MOSTERT: We were taught, or you think if you are going to the army


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you are going to destroy the red movement and the only way to do this is to go

through Angola and clean them out …South Africa is in danger and if

Angola…next country that falls is Namibia and South West Africa and then South

Africa which was ….

INTERVIEWER: Did you [inaudible] Namibia so obviously you were

concerned.

KOBUS MOSTERT: Yes you believe that you had to sort these guys out…go

shoot the fuckers. So …and afterwards, but while they were busy with

negotiations…like its going to come to an end, we are going to be joint military,

we actually thought it was just going to last for a while and then we are going to

“moer” each other again…so it wasn’t like what’s happening here…the war is

coming to an end what are we going to do then…you didn’t think that far, they

were saying you are young and all you want to do is ….when you are in uniform

shoot your gun…you know what I am saying…you …I was definitely too

young…now and obviously if you are that age you don’t get to talk to the General

or the…one of the main guys…you don’t get to know what’s going on

whatsoever…and you don’t care, you have got your platoon and that’s what you

do. If they ask you to go and patrol or do whatever, you will just go and do it.

INTERVIEWER: Do you remember the first time when you were briefed on this

radical change of mission, one day you are fighting and the next day you are

corroborating…do you remember sitting and listening to the …

KOBUS MOSTERT: They briefed us in Rundu itself in the ops room…they

were talking…look you never knew what you were going to do…its like the day


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before you do whatever…what you are going to do, what is your mission going to

do…no its get ready you are going to deploy…

INTERVIEWER: But was there any indication before this that the political

situation was changing, did you see the writing on the wall at some stage…and

see this coming or was it a total surprise?

KOBUS MOSTERT: I definately didn’t see it coming…there wasn’t gossip or

talk…you know what I am saying…that would have gone around and we would

have discussed it in the bars and whatever, what are we going to do now, what

are we going to do next, you know what I am saying…it wasn’t let out. I think it

was up to maybe Company Commanders status or maybe even Base

Commanders, but not further than that because then I know we would have

blocked it or….

INTERVIEWER: Do you think the Angolan’s had any idea of what was going

on?

KOBUS MOSTERT: No not really because when we did the …their

communication wasn’t that strong…up to their ground forces because when we

did the joint military in [inaudible] where we practically pulled out or…they

weren’t very clued up to date when the guys were coming to visit them or were

they going to be moved or were they going to get a new vehicle the next day or

…so …and their supplies they didn’t have a lot of food…so no based on that I

cant see that they even knew what was really going on…and if you take the first

of April when SWAPO came across the border, I mean all hell broke

loose…SWAPO thought their company was there and we were just going to run


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across the border…so what type of intelligence is that…that’s like non

existent…on beacon 22 where I was stationed there was a huge build up of

vehicles and shit on that side of the border the night before we left and the next

morning they trooped us out to Ragana and obviously I was the furthest beacon

at that stage from Delta Company so I was the last one to leave for Buffalo and

as I was sitting on the N4 the gunships came in…two of them and two Puma’s

and the guys were shaking…the pilots, they had no more bullets, there was no

more ammunition left and they were sent out, coming across the border like

cattle and we first trooped back to Buffalo and then they deployed us after the

weekend, we went all the way by vehicle…went back again and they deployed us

in North Chikata…and different areas to comb…but there was never …there was

no like early warning or …and then obviously the whole move from South West

Africa down to Pomfret was also …we saw the writing on the wall then…we had

to come down to South Africa and what are we going to do here…do lines?

INTERVIEWER: Were you stationed at Pomfret for a while?

KOBUS MOSTERT: Yes I was at Pomfret as well.

INTERVIEWER: What did you think of Pomfret the first time you saw it.

KOBUS MOSTERT: It was shit…it was terrible seriously…we were living right

next to the Okavango River …that’s like stunning and I grew up in that area so its

like leaving home, going where? And I think for the love of the troops as well it

was heart breaking to see the guys…I was in charge of the last train that left

Grootfontein station so I had to load all the troops on the last troops and their

families on the busses from Buffalo to Grootfontein and one sad thing for me was


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the amount of animals that were left behind, dogs that they couldn’t catch to take

them with…and my other mate Jors …they had to go back after we left …to go

and shoot the dogs in Akimbo…that were still running around…that’s the human

thing to do…so that to me was very sad, serious. Animals and children can’t look

after themselves…we are adults we can…so….

INTERVIEWER: So it felt like you were leaving home…do you think the

Angolan’s also felt like that?

KOBUS MOSTERT: Definitely we allowed them time…a lot of them were

excited…because they were going to South Africa, the promised land. And I

think it was such a big eye opener …look where they are now…they are left

behind, it’s a regime, it’s the government that doesn’t give a shit.

INTERVIEWER: But the Angolan’s buried their dead at Buffalo base didn’t

they.

KOBUS MOSTERT: They did yes, and its difficult…they are staying in Pomfret

now…they were the donkeys of the army and they did all the “kak” work for

South African Defence Force and thank you very much that’s a golden

handshake …and where are they now.

INTERVIEWER: That wasn’t really a golden handshake it was more of an

asbestos handshake actually.

KOBUS MOSTERT: There you go, you are right… asbestos. So …but if I can

choose, if someone said to me would you, whatever you did …where you were,

would you do it again…I would say I wish I was just like three years

older…because then I would have been in the unit for three years longer…any


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day any time…the unit didn’t change me…it changed me to good. I am definitely

not “bossies” or anything…fuck all, that’s bullshit…but the friends that I have met,

the connections that I have made its for life…that bond can never ever break and

my partner here he was in the army for like six months …I talk about people that I

have met in those years and that I am still friends with up until now…and we just

understand each other, it’s a different…it’s a culture if you want to put it that way.

INTERVIEWER: Have you come across any of the Black troops that you

worked with in recent years?

KOBUS MOSTERT: The one time….they actually got the key or the freedom of

Kempton Park…I had already left the army and everything, I think it was in

1991…talking under correction, either 1990/1991 I am not sure…a friend of

mine, we were in Johannesburg for a holiday and I heard about this that they

were going to have a parade and so we drove through to Kempton Park and as

we got there they were all standing in companies but all just chatting…all the

troops…and as I …I actually almost ran towards them…I just heard the one guy

shout out ….Lieutenant “Mossie”…and the whole company just…it was.

INTERVIEWER: Like a reunion.

KOBUS MOSTERT: Yes it was, and then when…then I met one up in Rundu,

the guy who shot his finger off, and I went back to Rundu and worked for my Dad

in Rundu…he had a seal company…and he was a security guard at the First

National Bank…so he never …

KOBUS MOSTERT: And I looked at him and I recognised his face, he had put

on a little bit of weight and then I looked at his finger and I saw his finger was


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missing and I said Peu… and he also…he was almost crying…it was …you know

what do you say, what do you tell the guy…he obviously asked me for a job but I

couldn’t help him and yes…he actually asked me for a job …but he wasn’t skilled

to do anything else as a security guard…what type of work do you let these guys

do…but I will tell you one thing and I have worked with Blacks all my life…going

into business and the army and I will never ever swop those troops for white

troops, never. The one guy in Buffalo the one day he was a contractor and we

were in the bar and he said julle “kaffers” wat vir julle werk, and I smacked him

and I said to him they are not “kaffers” they are troops and they are our troops. I

will never work with whites, as well as I worked with them…I have the worlds

respect for them and I knew they also had respect for me, so they are just a

different type of person…and the guys who work for me here, the Blacks that

work for me here, I can work with Blacks but I have never worked with people out

there…they type of people that they were, never ever.

INTERVIEWER: Is there anything that you would like to ask me before we

finish the interview?

KOBUS MOSTERT: What is your opinion about 32 Battalion?

INTERVIEWER: My opinion of 32 Battalion…I think it was a product of a very

unusual period of history…I think in the context of the cold war it’s the only place

that something like 32 Battalion could have emerged. I am trying to look at it

from a historical perspective so I am going back to 1961 when the FNLA was

formed…you know the first …one of the things that strikes me about 32 Battalion

is that the original members of 76 were…they were Angola’s first freedom


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fighters…they were the first anti-colonial liberation fighters in Angola…who had

just been pushed from one place to another because of factors of history beyond

their control, and in every case they landed on the wrong side of history…and I

…quite a few of them look at their lives now, because of the situations they are in

now they look at their lives and see it as a series of betrayals one after the other,

depends on where they are…I think the ones that are still in the defence force

probably look at it differently…everyone sort of has a different…they sort of look

at their past through a different lens…and that’s [inaudible] by where they are

sitting today…and I think its important that we look at the whole story of 32

Battalion [inaudible] the directions that things are going in the state of Angola at

the moment. I think that politically most of the FNLA veterans have said that the

Angolan war was a bit of nonsense, it was vanity….

KOBUS MOSTERT: It’s a rich country and everyone wants to make

money…everyone wants a piece of the pie and how are they going to sort each

other out in the country itself…its…still a stunning country, its beautiful,

awesome, I would like to farm there …without water there is nothing there.

INTERVIEWER: Okay Kobus thanks very much.

KOBUS MOSTERT: Pleasure.

END OF INTERVIEW

Collection Number: A3079 Collection Name: “Missing Voices” Oral History Project, 2004-2012

PUBLISHER: Publisher: Historical Papers Research Archive, University of the Witwatersrand Location: Johannesburg ©2016

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CLIENT : University of the Witwatersrand Historical Papers ...€¦ · Wits University - Historical Papers Kobus Mostert A3079/B09 INTERVIEWER: Interview with Kobus Mostert in Cape