'DECEMBER, 1936.] 22

BILL-BOAT ICOENSING ACTAMENDMENT.

Second Reading.

Debate resumied from the 26th November.,

RON. C. G. LATHAM (York) [10.29]:This is a simple Bill. It proposes to deleteSection 4 of' an Act passed in 1878. Thatsection reads as follows:-

Nothing in this Act contained shall apply toany boat, ship, vessel or steamer making anycoasting voyage within the meaning of "TheColonial Passengers Ordinance, 1801."

I understand that because that Ordinancehas ceased to exist, it becomes necessary tolicense these small boats under the Naviga-tion Act. The Minister proposes to sim-plify this procedure by the Bill nowr beforeus. It is certainly patchwork business, andit is time we went through all the oldstautes, and brought them up to date. Iam sure this particular Act has not beenused for some time. I ha've no objectionto the Bill.

Question put and passed.

Bill read a second time.

In Commnittee.

Bill passed through Comnmittee withoutdehate, reported without amendment, andthe report adopted.

House adjourned at .10-82 p.

legislative Council,Thursday, 3rd December, 2936.

Assent to BMi................Questions : Milning, advances t ocompsaies.

Railway ratse on water ....... ........Leave of absence ..BlM: Purchasers' Protection Act Amendment, report

Dairy Industry Act Amendment, report ..Industries Assistance Act Continuance, 2E., Cam.

Federal Aid Roads Agrpeement. Ii:.......Pensioners (Raes Exemption) Act Amenidment,

oaLseang Act Amendment, returned ..Muns Regulaton Act Amendment 2pL, de-fested. . .

Loan, £3,212,00, 2s..... ........ ...Geraldton Health Authority Loan, 2Rs. ..

?LOB282928292380230

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28802887

2887237

28872832858

The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.3Wp.m., and read prayers.

AS SENT TO BILLS.

Message from the Lieut.-Governor re-eived and read, notifying assent to the_undermentioned Bills:

1, Reciprocal Enforement of Mfainten-ance Orders Act Amndment.

2, Lad and Income Tax Assessment Ac~tAmendment.

3, 1 a_-d Tax and Inucome Tax.4, Electoral Act Amendment5, Justices Act Amendment.6, Child Welfare Act Amendment.7, Metropolitan Milk Act Amendment.

QUESTION-MINING, ADVANCES TOCOMPANIES.

Ron, C. G. ELLIOTT asked the ChiefSecretary: 1, What advanices have beenmiade to or guaranteed for mining companiesin Western Australia by the Government andhave not been repaid? 2, What are thenames of the companies concerned, and whatis the amount in each case?

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: Itwould entail a reat amount of time to as-certain the total advances made out of theGeneral Loan Fund for item "Development ofMining" by the Mimics Department fromn itsinception, but it is presumed that the. in-quiry only relates to the period of 'mningrevival since 1929, and information is give naccordingly. 1, See No. 2. 2, Great-BonnieBoon (1935, Ltd.), £587; Block 7 C ,

2329

[COUNCIL.]

Ltd., £E958; Freney Kimberley Oil Coy., N.L.,£2,500; Union Plaster Coy. (machinery),£812; Wiluna Ajax Gold Mines, N.L., £250;The Westralia Renown Mines, N.E., £675;Mateo Gold Mining Coy., Ltd., £498. Gua-ranteets-Celebration Mine, N.L., £20,000:Golden Hope, N.L., £5,000. Total advaucesand guarantees to companies, £31,280.

QUESTION-RAILWAY RATES ONWATER.

Honl. HE. V. PIESSE asked the Chief See-retary: 1, Are lower freight rates chargedby the Government railways for carriage ofwater to dry areas? 2, It so, what is thedifference in rates? 3, In view of thre acuteshortage of water, particularly for drinking.purposes, at Katanning, Nyabing, and oo-waingerup, and in surrounding districts,could water be carried to these areas at thereduced rates (if any) ?

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: 1,Water is conveyed at Class "l" rates, btwhen required for stock and domestic pur-poses a charge of 11/d. per tonl per mileoperates with a minimum of 2s. 6d.if cheaper than "N'i Class rates.answer to No. 1. 3, Yes.

LEAVE OF ABSENCE.On motion by Honl. Hf. Seddon,

absence for six consecutive sittingsto Hon. C. B. Williams (South)grouand of ill-health.

per tonl2, See

leave ofgranitedonl the

BILLS (2)-REPORTS orCOMITTEE.

1, Purchasers' Protection Act Amendment.2, Dairy Industry Act Amniadmient.Adopted.

BILL-IRDUSTEIES ASSISTANCE ACTCONTINUANCE.Second. Reading.

Debate resumed from the 2nd December.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. W. H.KisnWeti repl 'y) [4.40] : 1 securedthe adjournment of the debate onl the Bill aitthe last sitting in order that I might obtainisome information on the points raised byvMr. Thomson. I find that in the ease of the

Agricultural Bank Act '10 provision is madeto furnish settlers' seasonal requirements.The Industries Assistance Act is one of themeasures g-iven over to the control of threAg-ricultural Banuk Commissioners in orderthat they ray assist settlers who havesuffered fromt drought conditions or someother similar circumstances over which theyha.ve no control. The lion. member madesoalc i ruia, ks as to payment of land renitsby the Agricaltural Banik or by the Indus-tries Assistance Board. He said he wantedto mnake some provision which would ensurethat that should niot lie done in thre caseof farmilers who mnight have to be assistedunder the Act hy thre Agricultural BanikC onimissioilu, as the result of the droughteon ditions ex isting ait the present time. Mr.Thomson sugg'ested that his reason for de-sinrig, such all aniildnent as lie outlinedwas that those taniers should niot becalled up1)on to pay interest onl land rentswhich were paid onl their behalf byv theIndustrie' Assistance Board. I think thatis a fair- account of whiat thme hon. memberstated. I1 :al advised that the provision inqjuestion is retained in the Act for the pur-pose of protecting securities. The sectionreferred to hais niot been operated upon since1930; and it is niot intended that amountscovering settlers' indebtedness to theLands I el'riueut oil account of overdueland rals will operate generally. It isdesired, however, that the provision heretained for the pro tection of the securityin cases whichl a % arise.

Hon. J. Cornell: The difference betweenthe two Acts is that under the IndustriesAssistance Act the trustees take all the pro-eceds and do what they like with them.This is niot the case under the AgriculturalBanik Act.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: Under theAgricultural Banik Act there is no provi-sion for the supply of seasonal requirementswhich nieed to bie provided for numerousfarmers at the present time.

Hon. J1. Cornell: Those requirements canlbe provided tip to £2,000.

The CH-IIEF SECRETARY; Not seasonalreq iii n i s.

Hon. J1. Cornell: [t has been done.The CHIEF SECRETARY: Not for

seasonail reqiirements.Hon. J1. Cornell: Uen; hanve been released.Thre CHIEF SECRETARY: Butl not for

seasonal requireinits.

[3 DECEMBER, 1936.] 23

Hon. .J. Cornell: A client of the Indus-tries Assistance Board has no say.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: The Agri-cultural Bank Commissioners are utilisingthe Industries Assistance Act for the pur-pose of aiding settlers whom it is necessaryto help in various forms so that they maycarry on. This is due to difficulties whichthose settlers are experiencing from thedrought. Whatever assistance is renderedby the Agricultural Bank Commissionersinder the Industries Assistance Act will becovered in the ordinary way. With respectto land rents, according to my advies thereis no intention on the part of the Agricul-tural Bank Commissioners to take the actionsuggested by -Mr. Thomson; but the Comn-niss ioners point out that it is essential thesection should remain.

Hon. J. Cornell: That section does notapply to an ordinary Agricultural Bankdebt such as land rents. Such a debt isnot stonped fromn the proceeds of an Agri-cultural Bank client.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: No. Thesection applies to settlers who come underthe Tudustries Assistance Board. Why tryto cloud the issue? I am not trying to doaso at all. Settlers who comec un'der theIndustries Assistanec B~oard have to complywith the Adt so far as they are called uponto do so.

Hon. A. Thomson: That is the reason Ihave put up these suggsestions.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: I am ex-plaining the viewpoint of the AgriculturalBank Commissioners who have to administerthe Act.

Hon. J. J1. Holmes: We are not dealingwith -the Agricultural Bank, but the Indus-tries Assistance Board.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: Of course,but the Commissioners of the AgriculturalBank have placed upon them the responsi-hility of administering this particular Actwhich, I believe, is the only Act that willallow the assistance being given that isnecessary. With regard to the question ofthe rate of interest to be paid by theseclients, the position at present is that onlyfive per cent. is being charged the settlerin respect of advances made under the Act.The position, however, is entirely governedby the rate at which money can be foundby the board. At the present time moneyis obtained by the board a~t 41/ per cent.and the settler is charged five per cent., thedifference-one half per cent-heing ye-

tained by the administration to cover ad-ministration costs. That is the informationI have obtained and I thought it was onlyright I should give it to the House, in viewof the lion. nmenmber's remarks. So far assix per cent, is concerned, that is not beingcharged at the present time. If there shouldbe any alteration made in the Act, it is notdesirable that we should lx any particularrate of interest, such as live per cent, assuggested by the bon. nmember. It would befar better, if any alteration is made, thatit should be a rate to be prescribed, becausefrom time to time there is a variation in thecost of money utilised for this purpose and,generally speaking, the margin over andabove the cost is one half per cent. I haveno more to say except to point oat that ithas been the policy of Governments for someyears past to wind up the Industries Assist-ance Board and allow the Act to lapse asearly as possible, but the recent droughtconditions have made this impossible andpractically the sole use made of the Actat the present time is to make advances forseasonal requirements.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

Instruction to Committee.HON. A. THOMSON (South-East)

[4.50] I move-That the Committee be instructed that they

have power to insert the following new clausesin the Bill:-

New Clause 2:Section nine of the Industries Assistance Act,

1915 (No. 27 of 1915), as reprinted with amend-ients in the Sessional Volume of the Statutesfor 1931, is arnwnded by deleting paragraph(a).-

New clause 3:Section twelve of the Industries Assistance

Act, 1915, is amended thy deleting paragraph(d).

New Clause 4:Section thirteen A of the Industries Assisi.-

ance Act, 1915, is amnended by, deleting the word''six'' in the fifteentih line of the section, andsubstituting the words '',iot more than five.''

Now Clause .5:Subsection (4) of section fourteen of the in-

dustries Assistance Act, 191.5, is amended bydeleting the words ''not less than six' in thefourth line of the subsection, and substitutingthe words ''not more than five.''

New Clause 6:Subsection (2) of section twenty-two E of

the Industries Assistance Act, 1915, is amendedby-

(i) deleting the Words ''land rents'' in thesixth line of paragraph (b) ;and

2331

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(ii) deleting all the words after the word ''pre-miums'' in the seventh line of paragraph(b) to the end of the paragraph.

New Clause 7:Siection twenty-two K of the Industries As-

sistanee Act, 191.5, is hereby repealed.I am very lpleased with the sympatheticreply that the Minister has given. It is ad-fiitted that the only means by which as ist-anee call be given to those suffering throughthe drought is through the Industries Assist-aonce Board, and it has to be recognised thatthose people will not be able to get out ofthe control of the hoard this season. Theywould be fortunate if they did.

The PRESIDENT: Order! Will the hori.member resume his seat? For the informa-tion1 of the House I had better read the fol-lowing sentences from "May's Parliament-ary Practice," page 368-

Tile debate on a motion for all instructionmust be strictly relevant thereto, antd must notbe directed towards the general objects of thebill to which the instruction relates, or antici-pate the discussion of a clause of the bill, andtim mover has not the right of reply.J quote that for the benefit of the Hon. 'Mr.Thomson and other hon. members of theHouse.

Hon. A. THOMSON: That is all I wishto say. The Act has been in existence since1915. We had hoped that the wvork of theboard had finished and that only a matterof cleaning up the remaining liabilities wasleft to be settled. But when it is realisedthat £78,000 has already been advanced andthe Premier has budgeted in the Loan Esti-mates for an additional £700,000, the seri-ousness of the position will be realised.While it is true that it may be the policy ofthe Government at the present stage not tocharge up the land rents, we know it hasbeen done in the p~ast and if we pass thisBill as it is now, there is nothing to preventthe bank commissioners from Jputting thatp)olicy into effect. It is definitely laid downin the Act as it exists that the rate of in-terest shall not he less than six per cent. Itis with a view to rectifying- these anomaliesthat I am craving the indulgence of theHlouse and asking that the committee begiven a direction to disenss the amendmentson the Notice Paper.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. W.ff. Kitson-West) [4.531: While I am notgoing to raise any strong objection. I wvouldlike to point out that this is purely a con-tinuance Bill.

Hon. C. F. Baxter: This is a most unusualprocedure.

The CHIEF SECRETARY: Yes. Theproper course to adopt in a matter of thiskind is to make a request to the Govern-ment in the usual way- that anl amendingBill he brought down to provide for certainamnendmnents to he made, giving the reasons.I have no doubt that generally speaking allyGovernment would be 1)repared to give seri-ous consideration to a request of that kind.It is a very important matter, of course, thatfarmers shall be able to receive assistance atthe present time, and it will be recognisedby all members that the Government have atleast shown their readiness to do whateverthey can.

Ho,,. A. Thomson: That is admitted.The CHIEF SECRETARY; The lion.

memhbei need have no fear whatever in re-gadto the question of land rents. I have

already pointed out that the provision hasnot been acted upon since 1930, but it isnecessary that p~rovisioni of that kind shouldbe retained in order that the security heldby the b~ank may be protected. In somecases it would be essential, beeause if landrents wvere not paid and the land were for-feited the bank would have no securitywhatever, no matter what amounts mighthave been advanced. I do not popose todebate the question at any leng-th. I rose topoint out the unusual procedure beingadopted onl this occasion and suggest thatin the matter of a continuance Bill it is notdesirable that action of this kind should betaken.

Hon[ H. Seddon: [t is the first time it hasbeen done in this House. It has been donein the Assembly.

The CIKIEF SECRETARY: I am notconcerned wvhere it was done or wvhen. Iam suggesting that it is an unusual proce-dure and not the correct procedure in amatter of this kind.

HON. J. CORNELL (South) [4.55]: Un-usual circumstances call for unusual pro-ceedings. 1 understand the only way thisBill canl be amended is in the manner sug-gested by ' Mr. Thomson. The Governmenthave said that they do not administer theAct. It is entirely administered by the Com-missioners. The Government have no politi-cal pull over the Comnmissioners. It is nota question of the attitude of the Govern-ment in respect to the administration of

2332

[3 DECEMBER, 1936.J 2333a

this Act, but "'bother or not the Comnmis- New Clause-Auendment of Section 9:sioners will extend a little more sympathy Hon. A. THOMSON: I move-than has been gilven regarding some of the That the following be inserted to staid, asprovisions of the Agricultural Bank Act. Clause 2:-'Setiou nine of the Industries As-The argument advanced by3 the Chief See- sistance Act, 1915 (No. 27 of 1q15), as re-retary in support of the retention of the printed wvith amendments in the Sessional Vol-

provsio obecte to tht i i ecesar aus of the Statutes for 1931 is amended byprovsio obecte to tht itis ecesar deleting paragraph (c).''to protect the security of the Bank, is verythin. If it is necessary in this instance, Secton 9 empowrers the Treasurer, for theit is necessary as far as the AgriculturalptoeofaorigsitnctoetlsBank Act is concerned, hut a similar see- and other persons affected by drought ortion does not appear in the Agricultural other adverse conditions, to supply seed,Bank Act. The difference is that when a fertilisers, fodder, machinery, etc., and to,

client goes under the provisions of the "'ake advances to enable them to pay agist--Industries Assistance Act, he goes under wient fe .es, municipal and road board rates,body and son1. All his profits are handled w'.ages, insurance, etc. Paragraph (c) em-.by the Commissioners in such a mianner powers the Treasurer to-as they think fit. He is practically a mnere Ma0ke advances to applicants to enable themcypher. to pay rents due to the Department of Lands

Hon.J. .Hlme: Isnottha iiht? and Surveys wher, in default Of payment theirHon.3. .Hlme: Isnotthn riht? holdings would be liable to Xorfeiture, or to payHon. .1. CORNELL: I do not think so. any moneys due to any other Government de-Hlon. J. J1. Holmes: lie could not live partinent or institution and legally or equitably

without them, charged or intended to -be charged by statute,Hon. J. CORNELL: I do not know that mortgage or otherwise, upon their holdings.

lie could live with them. Unless there is 'rhe object is to strike out paragraph (e).very sympathetic consideration given to The Minister said no charge bad been mademen who have to come under the Indus- since 1930, which is proof that previouslytries Assistance Board-and many of the the Agricultural Bank authorities, as trus-best men have to seek assistance-they will fees for the Industries Assistance Board,be in very giave difficulties. I agree that were definitely charging land rents andit is unusual to take the course suggested compelling the farmers to pay interest atby Mr. Thomson on a continuance Bill, but 6 per cent, on the amounts. The Ministerthe position is that the Governmient con- also said that the paragraph should be re-sider that the Act is sufficient as it stands, ttiied in order to preserve the security:whereas Mr. Thomson is of the opinion The settlers needing assistance are clients

that it is not, of the Agricultural Bank, and surely in aMember: Is there any evidence of harsh- time of stress that compels them to seek

nessi n ssistance for seasonal requirements, it is

The PRESIDENT: I remind hon. mem- reasonable to ask for the suspension ofhers that debate on a motion to give the those rents. The request is justified by theCommittee power to insert certain clauses existing extraordinary conditions.

in a Bill should be confined to the ques- The CHIEF SECRETARY: I do nottion as to whetter or hiot the Committee raise any particularly strong objection toshould have that power. The details of the the new clause. The hon. member Said myclauses can be discussed Mien the power statement had proved that previous to 1930has been granted. the custom had been to pay the land

Hon. J. CORNELL: The only way to se- rents of clients and charge interest oncure Mr. Thomson's objective is along the amounts. I did not say anything to justifylines he has suggested. Then are unusual that statement. I said that not since 1930.happenings which call' for unusual reme- had the Industries Assistance Board paiddies. any land rents at all. Previous to that it

Question put and passed. was done to protect the security of theBank. Surely I made the position clear!

I" Committee. Hon. A. Thomison: It was done in theHon. J. Cornell in the Chair; the Chief earlier days.

Secretary in charge of the Bill. The C HIEF SECRETARY: We are usingClauses 1, 2-agreed to. the Act to enable us to grant assiqtance to

2334 [COUNCIL.]

settlers in need, and it is not intended topay land rents on behalf of clients. If thehoard have to provide the money to payportion of the land rents to make the secur-ity clear, they should have that power. Thebon. member should realise the effect of hisaction.

Hon. J. Nicholson: Would it be beneficialto delete the paragraph?

Hon. 0. W. MILES: The deletion of theparagraph would deprive the Treasurer ofthe power to make advances.

Ron. A. Thomson: It would not.Hon. G. W. MILES: We should hesitate

before accepting the new clause. I opposeit.

Hon. A. THOMSON: If the Governmentwere administering the Act, one might beinclined to accept the Bill without ques-tion, but the administration is entrusted tothe Agricultural Bank Commissioners and,once the Bill be passed, Parliament will haveno control.

Hon. G. W. Miles: You have no confi-dence in the Commissioners?

Hon. A. THOMSON: I have to considerthe settlers who will be compelled to comeunder the Act. If the hon. member werein the position of some of the settlers andhad had experience in the earlier days, hewould probably he a little more sympathetic.The new clause would not prevent the Con-missioners from making advances. I haveheard members criticise Governmentsstrongly for charging group settlers 7 percent. interest on money obtained at 1%2 or21/ per cent.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! The questionof interest is not contained in this proposednew clause.

Hon. A. THOMSON: I admit that. Ifwe do not accept the new clause, the A~ri-cultural Bank Commissioners may say toevery client, "You owe the Lands Depart-ment so much for land rent, and we pro-pose to make it secure."

Hon. J. J. Holmes: If the AssociatedBanks pay land rents they charge the clientinterest.

Hon. A. THOMSON: But they are deal-ing with farmers who have a margin, andthey do not take complete control of theproceeds, as do the Agricultural Bank Come-missioners. The Commissioners have abso-lute power to take the whole of the pro-ceeds and distribute them as they think Itl.If a farmer obtains an advance from oneof the Associated Banks for seasonal re-

quirements, he is allowed to draw his owncheques and pay his creditors as he thinksfit. Undcr this measure the Commissionerswould have the right to take the whole ofthe proceeds and let other creditors go short.

Hon. T. Moore: Has that been done dur-lug the past few years? Is it the practiceto-day?9

Hon'. A. THOMSON: I draw attentionto the fact that prior to this year there were319 farmers, being carried on under theIndustries Assistance Act. They were oldclients, and we do not know what the BankCommissioners are going to do when itconies to the distribution of farmers' pro-ceeds 12 months hence. Under the provisionsof the Industrial Assistance Act the numberwas reduced to 319, but now the total hassuddenly jumped to over 2,000, and thePremier is anticipating an increase in thatnumber because lie has made provision inthe Loan Estimates for £C200,000, and hnsstated that another £500,000 will have tobe provided. I have no desire to do any-thing that will embarrass the Government,but it is reasonable to removc from the,shall we say, v the temptation to balance theledger by juggling the fig-ures and sayingto those who arc in difficulties through ad-verse circumstances, "Your land rents willbe in suspense, and therefore you will nothave to pay 5 or 6 per cent. interest." Wehave given the Bank Commissioners powerto say, "This man owes us £40 and we cam

taeit out of the proceeds of his crop," andthe Commissioners can allow the farmer toretain so much to enable him to carry on inthe succeeding year. This might mean that£20, £30 or even £40 would be in suspense.I remind the House that the land didnot cost the Government anything. It wasthere.

Hmn. L. Craig: But the Government madeadvances on it.

Hon. A. THOMSON: I am dealing withthe rents. However, I hope members willsupport the new clause.

The CHIEF SECRETARY. While thehois, member spoke for a long time, hecould have said all he did say in a very fewwords, and those fewv words would have beenthat he did not trust the Government,through the Bank Commissioners, to treatdistressed farmers sympathetically underthis Act. That is all he said, and it tookhim a long- time to say it.

2334

[3 l)ECEAMEII, 1936.1 2335

Hon. A. Thomson: Why should I trustthem?7

Hon. H. V. PIESSE: it is not my ideaof the situation that we do not trust theGovernment. The amendment is reasonable,and the question is that thle Bank Commis-sioners have been appointed to control thisAct. We heard the Minister in anotherplace -say that, regardless of Parliamentaryor political control, thle Bank Commis-sioners have thle power to carry out theprovisions of the Industries Assistance Act.We know that under tile Agr-icultural HankAct now in force, the Industries AssistanceAct has been handed over to the Connnins-signers to administer. I consider theyshould have full power, but at the samne timethe Government really have no control overthe Commissioners when it comes to a pointsuch as this particular clause deals with.

Honl. J. '.K. Macfarlane: For how long?Holl. H. V. PIESSE: I do not know. I

do not think the Government Wvould charge6 per cent, interest. At the same time, forthe protection of the Government and thepeople, nothing should stop the amendmientfromt being inserted in the Act.

Tbo Chief Seeretary: It has nothing todo with 6 per cent.

Hon. 1-. V. PIESSE: I mecan tile pay-ment of land rents. The Minister for Landsin another place said that as far ats theBank was concerned it would deal withclients ill its own] way.The CHAIRMAN: 'When dlid the Minister

say that?Hon. A. Thomison: When~f lie introduced

the Bill?The CHAIRMAN: Tlhie hion. mnember

munst, not allude to a debate of the currentsession.

Hon. J. J1. HOLMES: If iv.c are to conicin now and impose conditions which mat vbe unreasonable, the Banik CommissionersInot' say that they will not give any furthersupport. That is what will happen.

Holl. A. THOMSON: My desire is toassist those people who, against their willand inclination, have been brought underthe Industries Assistance Act. We 'had thedefinite statement by the Minister for Landswhen he introduced the Bill in another placethat the Bank was going to administer thisAct. He definitely said that the Batik woulddeal with its clients in its own way.

The CHAIRMAN: I again remind (lielion. member that it is improper to quotefrom a debate of the current session.

Hon. A. THOMSON: It is not thle Guy-erment who are in control, but the Corn-inissioners.

Hon. J. .1. Holmnes: We gave the Conl-inissioners, the powver they possess.

Hon. A. THOMSON: The Commissionersof thme Agricultural Bank have been givenmore power than either 'Mr. Holmes or fwould like to submit to.

Hlon. G. W. Miles: You have got to sub-mit to the requiremcents of thme Act.

Hon. A. THOMSON: Section .51 of theAct gives thle Banik all the protection thatis needed. I wish to God Mr. Miles hadexperienced a little of the difficulties thatconfroiit the farmers, for he would thenbe a little more sympathetic.

Hon. J. J. Holmes: You must remembertlhat Parliament gave the Agricultural BatikConimissioners their authority.

Hon. A. THOMSON: And the interestsof the Bank are proteced. An Act thatwas passed 22 years ago is to he used to ipose conditions upon settlers who, throughuldverse eircunistaoecs. ale compelled to se-dte assistance. I.E it were a new Bill I

Would fight it, and keep mtember s upl for twoor three nights if necessary.

Hon. G. W. MILES: 'Notwithstandinixthe threat made by 1[r. Thomson, I for one)vill tnt sacrifice flu :ns~et.4 of the taxpayers;i he seeks to do.

Hon. A. Thom.son : Bookum! Read theBidll.

Hon. G. W. 'MILES: Mr. Thomson hasoften addressed the House along the sam,lines. He has asked for the expenditure ofaore mloneCy on various occasions, and thencomplains about taxation. A private debtorsigns a mortgage to a bnnk or seone otherinstitution, and he is hound bod 'y and soul.Parliament gave the Commissioners of theAgricultural Batik power to administer th,,Act, aid it was just about time that thatipower was given thorn. Taxpayers, of thisState will live to thank the Commissionersfor having the courage to administer the Actas determined byv Parlianient, and not, as inthe past, at tite whim of parish pump mem-hers of Parliament who used their influenceover the heads of the Bank inspecto)rs.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I hope thelion. member's remarks do not apply to pre-sent members.

Hall. 0. W. -MILES: They may apply tomembers of another place. It. is the dutyof this House to protect the assets of the

2336 [COUN-CILl.]

State, and it is julst about time this poude r- iluilt.,'hrs reiv.4enur t Ihe North Provincelug to the, electors ill ptarticulr lprovincewas done a '~a- w ith. The ta ~pavers :1s awhole have to lout the hill. It reminds ilt'of a remark madeu IwA Disraeli "Ceai nIswhen hie said. ''There arev two Et,la,,qs-the England tha t locus and the. Engi a 11.that earns'' The, variouts classi lva,,.d itthle Government in' E,,glad- -

'The CHAIRMAN: I 'un afraid the hon.meinbe, is leaning oin the Chiairinan's leyii-*'tcV n10w.

[I-l. A. Tlhomnson: Vliat iliout the NXorlt-WYest?1

Hion. G. WV. AILES: I shall reserve -.myfurther remnarks until we (lea] with the All-propriatioi ]Bill or -the Loan Bill. twillthe,, -desil with snake of these country mein-hers wholl Want to sacrifice thle assets of thiegeneral taixpayers for the benefit of a fewpoor electors in 'i thir provinces. Many ofthem should have beets off the land yearsago. We have too many square Pegs inround holes to-day, and thle sooner 'ye get'rid of theni the better. I oppose the amend-meart. If the Commnittee agree to theamiendmient, wvillI the Government, who have,a majority iii another lplace, accept it? Ofcourse not.

Hon. .1. NIC.1301,SON: t foresee onedifficult;' in giving effect to the amendmentill its ipresent formi. Advances that havebeeain ade to date tinder this particular sub]-section may; hie albsolutely annulled if w-,a!!ree to the amendment, which contains ntoreservation safeguarding the position todate. There is a great deal in what -Mr.Miles said regarding the danger of deletinga provision that is helpful to the Conmnis-sioners.

Ron. J. J. HOLM1ES: Mr. Thomison'smhain tea r arises from the fart that a majo-rt ,v of Parliament gave the Agric~ulturalIBank Comunissioners control, not only ofthe Batik, but of the Industries Assistance,Board. I[ shall read to members a definitionof "Politics" as applied to b)usiness. It is:''Politics is the art of obtaining mioney front.the rich and votes from the poor onl theprnetext of proteetinhg cai front thel other."I assume that hall somtethinhg to do wvith thematter whevn this House took the control ofhoth the Agricul t nal Bank and( tlip indlis-tries Assistance Board out of fli.- hantds ofParliament.

]lon. A. THOMISON : I tiu114 rejlv to .'Holmes. I regr-et the levi ty withl Whicl,

are treatin ittIs amieiilint. When mat-ter's atfeeting the. North and North-West;ire dliscud-

Ho, G. WV. ~\ l They are treated outtlheir luri1 ts.

Ho,,. A. T.HOMSO8N: -We give thleqjuestioins seriout, cnsideration and sup-port. When 'we ask for anything in tnt'interests of the pilay pioducing sectionsWho are tip against great dilliculties, we iii-variably find that -Mr. H-olmies and Air.Miles-the y have not been symipatheticon1ce since I have b~een ill this House-havetot given its symathelitic supp1 ort. I amnot seeking public ity, nor amn I indulgingin cheap politics. I have been in p)ubliclife long enough to realise the hollownessof tle remarks enating from those hon.inembers, and I deep ly resent thle reflectioneast upon ine. It is ntot right forMrHolmnes to make suich a statement regard-ing. tile.

The CHAiRIMAN: Ordler! I think hisremuarks applied to a lot of us.

Hont. A. THOMSON: From my point ofview, this is a mlatter of Serious iiport-a ne. IWill aep)t; flhe deci sion of theConunli[tee, bitt, whichever way it goes,Isatll have toile liy duty to a large sectionof the pimary'produeers who, God knows,are up lgnliuist extteme difficul ties.

Hon. J. J. HOLMES: As one of theametbers representing thle North Province1 think miembers wvill zi-tep that the peoplein the northern paruts of flue State are thosewvho have helped Ilieniselves in the past-

Hon. L. B3. Bolton: To ll] they could tret.Hon. .1. J1. HOLMES: They have not

been found sittinhg onl the dloorstep) of thleA~.gi iltura Ban k, the Indust vie-i AssistanceBoard, or ainy other Gloverinacnt department.The people of the North are in greateriflicit t, to-oarq thiat are those working inl

thle South.Hon,. A. Trhontson,: And we give sYln pal-

thetiec onsidevration, to their requirementswvhen they arc mentioned in this House.whtich is nlote than Y-ou have given to our-ireqiireme nts.

Ron. J. J1. HOLMES: Thie people inl theNorth are upl agai nst it to a mutch greaterextent than the people in the South. Havemembers eve,' heard lpastoililists in theNorth raising their voices amid saying thatsomething ought to hie done for dietn9 SoPar- a, I an, aware, thle pastoralists have

[3 DEEM, 1936.] 23

adopted the attitude that the job wastheirs and it was for them to see it through.It will be only when they cannot see thejob through themselves that they wvill comedown to the level of other people and siton the doorsteps of Government institu-tions begging for assistance.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! This breezebetween the North and the South will haveto cease.

Hon, L. CRAIG: I think so too, Mr.Chairman. I was just about to say thatthe issue was becoming rather cloudy. Mr.Thomson has no doubt been imbued withthe best of intentions in his desire to dowhat is right on behalf of the people herepresents. The Industries AssistanceBoard has operated for many years, and itwas found necessary to give those in con-trol certain powers. Mr. Thomson pointedout that those on the books of the I.A.13.had dropped to as few as 319, but nowthere were over 2,000 clients on the booksand that the number would probably reach3,000. When times are bad, is that whenwe should take away powers that werenecessary when the situation was less diff-cult? The board can be trusted to do thrright thing now. They must see that Goy-ermnent funds are protected. I oppose t~iaamendment.

New clause put and a division taken withthe following result:

Ayes . .. . .. 9Noes .. . .17

Majority against .

Noln. C.?P. BaxteHan. C. G. El l~OttHon. V. flamersleyHon. W. J. MannHon. H., V. Pieose

8Anm.

IHoni. A. ThomsonHon. H. TuckerR on. C, H. WittoncoonHon. 0, B. WoodTle.

moms.Han. U. H1. Angelo Ron. J.3J. HolmesHon. L. B. Bolton Hon. W. H. KitsonHon. A. Mi. ClYdesdnie Hon. J. M. MacfearlaneHon. L. Craig Hon. 0. W. MilesHon. J. M. Drew Hon. T. MooreHon. J1. T. Franklin Hon. J1. NiebolsonRon. G. Fraser Hon. ff. SoddnRon. R. H. Gray Hon. H. S. W. FencerHon. R. M1. Heenan (Teller.)

New clause thus negatived.

New clause:Hon. A. THOMSON: I move-That the following new clause be inserted:-

"Section thirteen A of the Indtistries AssistanceAct, 1915, is amended by deleting the word'six' and substituting thie words 'not morethan fle. "

The CHIEF SECRETARY: I havealready pointed out that at the present time

five per cent. is the iate of interest charged.That is an indication that the Commissionersof the Ag-ricultural Bank are considerate ofmen who have to make application for ad-vances. Notwithstanding that the Act saysthat six per cent. should be the rate, onlyfive per cent, is being charged. And thisrate depends on the cost of the money to theGovernment or the Bank ini the first place.Does the hon. member say that five percent, should not be charged? If the hon.ineniber wishes to make any alteration, heshould altor it to "a rate to be prescribed."There is no desire to ask far a higher rateof interest than is necessary to cover whatis paid for the money plus the cost of ad-mninist ration.

New clause put and negatived.

Hon. A. THOMSON: In view of the de-cisions already given by the Cornmittee, itseems to me useless to proceed with the re-4mauling amendments standing in my name,which are all more or less interwoven.

Title-agreed to.

Bil[ reported withouit. amendment and thereport adopted.

BILLS (2)-rIRST READING.

1, Federal Aid Roads Agreement.2, Pensioners (Rates Exemption) Act

Amendment.Received from the Assembly.

BILL-BOAT LICENSING ACTAMENDMENT.

Returned from the Assembly withoutamendment.

BILL.-MINES REGULATION ACTAMENDMENT.

Second Bearding.

Debate resumed from the previous; day.

HON. T. MOORE (Central) [5.53):Since I do not wish to delay the passing ofthe Bill, I will not speak at any length uponit. Members who hare studied the situationknow that in this instance they are dealingwith mien who are working in the most un-healthy occuplation in the country. Becauseof that I think the House should be sympa-thetic and say that those men shall get whatthey are asking for in this short Bill. One

2337

2338 COUNCIL.]

member has said, that if those meni weregranted all the things they ask for, theywould be likely to kill the goose that laysthe golden egg. I should like to know whatthat means; wvho is this goose that lays thegolden egg?

Member: It is the capitalist.Hon, G. W. Miles: That is propaganda.Ron. T. MOORE: I will take the hon.

member's word for that. The point is thatthe men themselves are really those of whomit can he said they are laying the goldenegg. Unfortunately they are the geese thatare being killed. Members know in whattragic circumstances many of our minersfinish up. These men deserve the most sym-pathetic treatment because they are livn~gin a particularly unhealthy atmosphere. Imyself saw what was happening 30 yearsor more ago. I then saw young mnen com-ing into the industry, just as they do to-day.But unhappily they did not last long, andto-day the mines are becoming ever deeper.I know the conditions under which the menwork on the mines. It is said that they havebeen very much improved, but I can saythey are still far fromn being good. Oneof the leading inspectors in this country isresponsible for saying that in one of thebig mines the manager has been told thatunless conditions alter the mine will haveto be closed down. Yet the men are stillworking there.

lion. L. B. Bolton: Thea the inspectoris not doing his job.

Hon. T. MOORE: Of course he does notwant to take drastic action because the minershave to live and (maintain their wives andfamilies. Let us see how city workers wouldbe affected. Mr. Bolton employs about 100men. Suppose he kept some of them backfor 20 minutes longer than they would other-wise be working in the afternoon. Notwith-standing that they work under particularlyhealthy conditions, would they not evincegreat dissatisfaction if they were called uponto work that much longer? His men wouldnot tolerate it. Then, again, if they wereallowed to leave the factory only one by one,how long would they take to get awayYTheir conditions cannot be compared withthe conditions of men who are working inthe deep levels on the Golden Mile and onthe Murchison. At Wiluna the men areworking 1,600 feet down- Things are not asgood as they might be for the menall through the goldields. In the city,-workers go straight out of their jobs the

moment they have finished for the day. Whyshould men who work in the deep levels of

-a mine be singled out for special treatmentand he kept down below an extra 20minutes? The principle is altogether wrong.During the debate we have been led to be-lieve that this is an innovation, that Parlia-ment should not do such a thing, hut that itshould be left to the Arbitration Court. Inactual fact, however, this prinicile has beenon the statute-hook for the last 30 years inassociation with the coal minling industry.

Hon, J, J,. Holmes: I think you are wrongin saying that the Act has been in existencefor 30 years.

Hon. T. MOORE: I refer to the CoalMines Regulation Act, which was passed in1902. It provides for exactly the sameprinciple for coal mines as is now beingasked for in the case of gold mines. If itwas thought fit to allow this in the case ofcoal miners, the Act in question beingassented to on the 19th February, 1902, itought not to he too much to ask that itshould be applied also to gold miners, Coalmniners do not have to work under the sameunhealthy conditions as apply in the ease ofgold mines. Surely this House will not de-cline to do this for the coal miners who, inturn, are doing so much to enable thiscountry to carry on. If it webre not for theminers on the goldfields, working as they areunder particularly hard conditions, thingswould he very had for this State. In pointof fact, the miner-s are to-day being workedharder than ever. In many of the big minesthe piece-work system. has been introduced.In the old days men used to do bogging andmulloeking hy day labour, and did not haveto extend themselves. Piece-work was thenintroduced, with the result that the minersnow work very hard. Even under the oldconditions to -which I have referred a tre-mendous percentage of miners had to go tothe Wooroloo Sanatorium. Mr. Baxter him-self knows how many had to do this. If itwas thought fit in 1902 to grant this prin-ciple to the coal miners, it would be a f airthing for this House to-day to rant it to thegold miners, who are carrying on a greatindustry. The Act of 1002 says that a per-son would be deemed, and be held to beemployed below ground and in the servicesof the owner of the mine within the meaningof the Act from the time he commences todescend until he returns to the surface. Thatprovision is similar to what is contained inthis Bill. Long ago, when conditions were

2338

[8 DEmBE, 1986.] 2339

not nearly so bad as they are to-day, mensuccumbed to miners' diseases. Nowadaysthe mines are down thousands of feet, and itis only fair that the House should considerthe claims of the men in this respect. I amsure that many statements have been miadeby members during the debate that wouldnot have been made had they beein morefamiliar with the mining conditions. Theywould be doing a fair and honourable thing

by he illrsif they did for them what wasdone for the coal miners in 1902. 1 hopethe Bill will be passed.

HON. C. H. WITTENOOM (South-East)[.]:I oppose the second reading. I no-

ticed from the remarks of members thatquite a number of the mines are workingunder the bank-to-bant system. Nearly allthose mines axe comparatively small. Air.Moore referred to only one large mine,namely, Wiluna. That mine, however, isat the comparatively shallow depth of 1,400feet.

Hon. T. Moore: It is down to 1,600 feetno0w.

Ron. C. H. WITTENOOM: Many of themines on the Golden Mile are down 3,800feet or more.

Hon. G. Fraser: All the more reason whythe men should not be down the minesfor so long.

lion. C. 11. WITTENUOM: What aboutthe expense? Most of the other mines areworking under the old system. The menare going down in the time of the companyand[ are coming up in their own time.I take it the old system is being continuedfor the sake of economy and, reducingcosts. It is very important to the industryitself that costs should be kept down. Themargin of profit in the case of these minesis remuarkably small. I know of one bigmine from which we have been expectingdividends and which is working on a verysmall margin of profit, the ore handled be-ing of low grade. Unfortunately, it is notgoing to pay dividends, I presume becauseof some unexpected increase in costs. Eco-nomic hauling is one of the many detailsof miningr that has to be dealt with in thisState. It is due to economic working andhandling that many mines to-day have beennable to treat ore of only 6 to 7 dwts. invalue. Not many years ago a mine thathad ore going about 10 dwts. could not beworked at a profit. Be cause so much moreknowledge has been gained of economic

working, treatment, etc., many of theseshows have lately been able to keep going,and have provided work for hosts of em-ployees. They have attracted miners fromall over Australia, America, and other partsof the world. Mr. Elliott referred lastnight to child labour in the coal mines ofWales and England. That haes nothing todo with the case under review. Those dayswvere long ago. The time is long dist-.when child labour was employed in the\%relsh mines. Not long ago His Majestythe King paid a visit to the Welsh wines.That visit was possibly due to some ofthose factors with which we are dealingnow. It was probably due to interferencewith the management of the mines, or in-terference on the part of irrpressibleunions and on account of certain disturb-ances in the mining industry. The troublethat occurred altogcther stopped the exportof coal from England to South America,France and other parts of the world. Thisstoppage was due to the increased cost ofproduction. Work in the English and Welshcollieries ceascd for the time being and .Ihave no doubt that the trouble was dne tothe mnaigement being prevented frota reducing costs or keeping them down. I be-lieve that strike cost manyv millions ofpounds directly and indirectly. All traf-fic ceased, and instead of trains ruaninirevery hour they could run only once or twicea week. People were dying of cold becausethey could not get the means with which tokeep themselves warm. Some of our minesin this State go down thousands of feet.

Hon. T. Moore: It is pretty hot downthere, too.

Hon. C. H. WITTENOOM: The Sons ofGsvalia does not go down vertically 4,000feet, but the shaft is in the vicinity of4,000 feet long. It would be unreasonableto expect the management to run theircages or skips twice as many journeys upand down the shaft as is necessary. Itwould also be uneconomic. A remark wasmade last night that the cost of hautlingmen was negligible. It is, in- fact, a verycostly business. It was Mr. Elliott whosaid the cost was negligible. The Sonsof Gwalia, mine is down 4,258 feet on theunderlay. That is over a quarter of amile in length. The shaft is 2,840 feetstraight down.

Ron. J. Cornell: That would be a longquarter of a mile.

[OOUNCIL4

Hon. C. H. WITTENOOM: The Boulder,Ivanhoe and Lake View mines are downbetween 3,000 and 4,000 feet. The weightof a cage and the complete hauling ropeana appliances to work the cae to a depthof 3,000 feet is no less than 6 tons. Thecage itself weighs 3 tons, and the windingrope to teach a distance of 8,000 feet weighsanother 3 tons, making a total of 6 tons.I should be surprised to learn that the costof hauling that weight up and down theshaft is inappreciable. Another importantitem is the time it takes to haul a cage overlongr distances. In the case of the Sons ofOwalia mine it takes three-quarters of anhour to change a shift. I understand thatin the Kalgoorlie mines the time occupied isfrom 20 minutes to half an hour. This Billis anything but a small one; it is a very seri-ens matter, as it will, if passed, add veryconsiderably to the cost of mining. Mr.Elliott said that, generally speaking, the menarrived at the plat from a quarter of anhour to 20 minutes before it was time forthem to go up. He also said that they fre.-quently arrived at the plat under wet con-ditions and were called upon to -wait whilein that condition from 16 to 20 minutes.Why do they go to the plat so long beforeit is time for them to come up? Surelysome arrangement could be made to obviatethat loss of time.

Hon. G. Fraser: It would be wasted later,if not then.

Hon. C. H. WITTENOOM: Why?Hon. G. Fraser: Time has to be allowed

for cleaning out smoke from the stope, etc.Hon, C. H. WITTEKOOM: I O*onder if

the hon. member has ever been down a mine.With modern ventilation and under modemnmining methods it does not take three-quar-ters of an hour to clean out a atope of smokeand fumes. If a shaft is not ventilated bynatural means, it is ventilated by compressedair. A quarter of an -hour would be quitelong enough to allow for the cleaning up ofan average stope.

Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m.

Hons. C. H. WI~fTENOOM: I was refer-ring to a remark made by an hon. memberyesterday that miners frequently arrive atthe bottom of the shaft bef ore the shift isover, that sometimes they arrive there aquarter of an hour or 20 minutes before thehauling time commences. The hon. memberwent on to say that the men are often in awet condition, and that it is anything but

good for their health to remain for a (Ilar, mrof an hour or 20 minutes in very wet clothes.It seems to me that if the men arrive at thobottom of the shaft 20 minutes beforehand,there must he something wrong. Why do notthey arrange their firing times so as to getto the shaft somewhere near the conclusionof the shift, thereby avoiding waste of theirown time if they are contractors, or waste ofthe company's time if they are ordinarywages men? The real reason of the troubleis that they have to arrange firing at cer-tain times, or perhaps they all have to firetogether; and they cannot absolutely arrangethe time. Air. Elliott referred to the work--ing places, stopes and so forth, which arcbadly ventilated and which take somethinglike half an hour, or even more, to get ridof fumes. That, however, does not mattergreatly, hecause the companies lose 20 min-utes or more before the shift starts. If thenew system is introduced into mines like theSons of 0-walia, about an hour and a half,and, perhaps mnore, will be lost in everyshift. In spite of remarks to the contrary,I am still of opinion that the Bill interfereswith the functions of the Arbitration Court.I shall not deal with that aspect now, as itwas fully debated last evening. I want hon.members to hear in mind that the name ofthe Western Australian mining industry inEngland is not as good as it might be. Iknow it is a nasty thing to say, but peoplein England do not like Western Australia asa field for investment. Such a reputation ismost regrettable. It is something we cannotafford. We should let English investors feelthat they will get fair treatment here, andthat we in Western Australia are endeavour-ing to keep down mining costs and make theindustry a pretty safe thing for investors-I oppose the second reading of the Bill. Itjs not a good Bil, and not by any means tothe advantage of the mining industry ofWestern Australia.

HON. C. F. BAXTER (East) [7.34JWith the exception of the Chief Secretaryand Mfr. Holmes, previous speakers in dis-cuissing the Bill have dealt with matters thatshould not be associated with the Bill at all-They have spoken of the working of mines,going back about a hundred years. Thatdoes not concern the present situation. Forthis House it is not a question of the con-dition of tbe industry, but a question ofwhich body should settle disputes in theindustry. From that aspect, Parliament hasestablished an Arbitration Court, which is

[3 DECEMBER, 1936.] 24

the body to deal with such matters and togo into those working conditions whichvarious members have been so busily discuss-ing in this Chamber. The Rouse cannotpossibly be in a position to adjudicate onproblems of labour. We should not inter-fere in any way with such matters whilethere is a constitutional method of dealingwith themn. During the course of the ChiefSecretary's reply on the Factories and ShopsAct Amendment Bill, the bon. gentlemandealt stringently with me, although I do notthink he intended it. When his statementappears in cold print, it -will seem as thoughhe had said that I had wilfully misled theChamber. At all events, the statementpointed in that direction. Now, it has neverbeen my habit to mislead the Chamber wil-fully in the smallest detail, though I mayhave made mistakes. I acknowledge as muchin the Ghicf Secretary's behalf. Later Ishall show where the hon. gentleman hasbeen badly misinformed. I do not put theresponsibility for the mis-statements on hisshoulders, because they resulted from in-formation given to him. The Chief Secre-tary said that there is nothing new in tmebank to bank system. He added that actu-ally it had been adopted voluntarily by thecompanies controlling a number of mines.The first instance he gave was the BoulderPerseverance. That mine certainly worksfrom bank to bank. It employs 165 menunderground. It is the one mine in whichthe- custom has existed for any length oftime. The whole mine was run by trihuters,who instituted the bank to bank system, withthe result that the company has had to carryit on. Hon. members with experience ofindustry are aware that once a system hasbeen introduced, that system cannot be dis-cairded for something less favourable. TheHannans North Mine has ten men employedunderground. The bank to hank systemoperates except in the ease of certain day-shift men. There is no bank to bank inconnection with the afternoon shift. NowI come to the Parings. Mine, which employs37 men underground and has no bank tobank system. Sometimes a few men arehauled up before 4 o'clock, at other timesafter four. The New Boulder North Miine,which the Minister mentioned, has 28 mennndergroun{1 The men come to the sur-face by 4 o'clock, but the manager statesthat only one shift is being worked,' andthat be does not intend to pay engine-driversovertime for the few minutes it takes to haul

the men up. The Gold Mines of Australiareport-

Owing to the fact that we are dc-water-lug o1l workings, the necessity for hail-ing tank continuously in one compartmentarises; further, the reconditioning of theshafts has been and still is in progress;it is therefore essential to haul to the surfacethose owen engaged in the shaft beforc thewhistle. Owing to our restricted capacity forhaulage, with only one cage ill use, we haveallowed thle ])Iatlen to continue itoi~itiug themen fromi the lower levels, somec of whom reachthe surface before the whistle blows--ie re-minder, and the greater portlin, being hauled

aifter the whistle. T[here is no wh'-stlc-to-kwhistleagreement with the men. We have considered itexpedient to carry out the above arrangementsdluring dc-watering and she ft-reconditioning op-erations. The number of men Piadergrouud is108.

In the ease of the Lake View South Ex-tended, there are no employees in the mine,'which is -under exemption until May of1937. It has not been the policy of thiscompany to work the hank to bank system.The North Kalgurli Mine has 158 menunderground. They are working hank tobank. The 'South Kalgurli ConsolidatedMine has 174 men underground. The bankto hank system is not in operation on thatmine, excepting on the Croesus South Lease,which is worked on a co-operative arrange-mnent with the North Kalgurli, the latterbeing a bank to bank show. The ChiefSecretary mentioned that the Wiluna andSouth Ralgurli Mines worked on virtuallya bank to hank system. The seven minesto which the MIiniSter referred, notw~ith-standing the fact that the majority of themare not working bank to hank, do not em-ploy in the whole total as many men as theLake View by itself employs. As regardsthe Norseman mine, -which the Chief Secre-tary states is virtually operating under thesystem, the hon. gentleman's information isincorrect. The mines at Horseman arc notworking under the hank to bank system.Again, the Chief Secretary was unfortunatein referring to the Wiluna mine. That mineemploys 739 men underground. The Moon-light Wiluna employs 100 men. They do notwork on the bank to hank principle. Iquote the following authentic information--

The whistle-to-whistle principle does not op-erate on these mines. The first cagte load of menis lowered to the bottom level, i-e-, No. .3level, or 630 feet, immediately the wirhitle inmdi-cates the commencement of the shift-4A comn-meneement is made to return the men to the,surface from the same level at fin3 minuttes be-fore the eight hours have expired. This allows

2341

2342 [COUNCIL.]

usually only one cage load of men being hoistedbefore tile whistle indicates the commencement-of tile next shift. The minca starting work, andthose finishing their shift, are then alternatelylowered and raised. The inea completing theirshift are usually all out Of the mine within 10minutes after the eight hours expire. The cageload of men hoisted before the eight hours ex-pire are usnally shaft-sinkers, samplers, and anyother men who may be available. No preferenceis given to tinfbermen, platelayers, and piipe-fitters; and all hoisting fromt the levels is in thesame rotation as in decendiag. On day shifttiurberanen, platelayers, and pipefitters are some-times hoisted early, the time depending on theamount of work to be done so that they mayobtain and deliver their respective requirementsfor the next day shift at the collar 61 thle shaft,so that they may he lowered into the mine dur-ing the afternoon shift.

That statement covers the systems in boththe Wiluna and the Wiluna Moconlight mines.It is not bank to bank, but just the oppo-site, For the information of hon. membersI will give particulars regarding mines oper-ating under the bank to bank system, andalso mines not so operating. To showthe importance of the records I amquoting, I would like the House toknow that the information I give hasbeen obtained from official sources,whose statements cannot be disputed.All those mnines that are not operating thebank-to-bank system are as follows:-

Menemployed.

The Australian Mining Truist, Ltd 20Big Bell Mines, Ltd. . . 33Broken Hill, Pty., Ltd.. 10Central Norseman Gold Corporation,

N.L. . .. . .. 107Edna May (W.A.) Amalgamated 17Coldfields Australian Development

Co., Ltd . . .. 29Golden Mile Block 45, N.L. .. 7Great Boulder Pty. Goldniines, Ltd.,

N.L. - . . .312Imperial Goldmaincs, Ltd. - .. 3Kunanatling Gold, N.h . - 8Lake View and Star, Ltd. 9. 10Lancefleld (W.A.), Coidmine, N.L. 175MtL Magnet Goldfields, Ltd. .. 55IN.G.M., Ltd. .. . . 40Ora Banda Amalgamated Mines,

N.L. -- -- . -. 44Triton Goldmines, N.L. 1-. 150.Moonlight 'Wilna Goidmidne, Ltd. 106Sons of Gwalia1 Ltd - .2P7Wiluna Cold Mines, Ltd. - .. 700Yuanii Gold 'Mines, Ltd. . .112

Those operating under the bank-to-banksystem are as follows:-

Menemployed.

Bonlde-r Perseverance, Ltd 1 .lilCoasolidatbd Gold Areas, N.7L. -- 10

Menemployed.

Lady Shento n Goldmines (1934),N.L. . .. . .. 40

Marvel Loch Gold Development,N.L. V. . . . 2

North Kalgurli (1q12), Ltd. .- 108

The nunmher employed in the mtines notojperatinlg thle batik-to-bank system is 8,300odd, and those ini the mines operating thebank-tn-bank systemi 43-5.

Hon. J. Cornell : Ouit of a total emiployedof how many?

Hon. C. F. BAXTER: I bare not thetotal figures.

Hon. J1. Cornell: It is only about a third.Hon. E. N1. Heenan: How recent are

those figures!Hom. C, 1 . BAXTER: I got them yester-

day.Honi- C. G. Elliott: Iii the majority of

those mnines the men are on the surface fix-or tenl minutes.

H1on. C. F. BAXTER: I have read thedetails: I do not know bow much the hon.nMemibcr wants, Mr. Elliobt dealt last nightextensively wvith working conditions. ThisBill is not concerned with that at all; it issimph-Y a qu1estion whether this House isgoing to constitute itself an arbiter in apurely industrial matter, or leave it to thebody constituted under the ArbitrationAct to handle snch matters. Air. Drew camneinto tile limelight in this matter. He referredto the fact that the Mlines Regulation Actwas passed at a later date than thle Indus-rial Arbitration Act. and contained prov-i-sions regulating the hours. The sectionsregulating hours both in that Act and theFactories Act were carried into our legisla-tion fromt corresponding measures in theImperial Parliamient where this type oflegislation originated. The legislation wasinstitted because of the scandals referredto by Mr. Elliott existing in coal minesaind factories in the early part of last cen-tulry in the Old Country. Those sections fixmnaximium hours and time underground, andhave since been altered and amended by thedecisions of the Arbitration Court. Surelyit is the prerogative of the ArbitrationCourt to do that, and not of the Mifnes Regs-lation Act. For instance, the hours workedin the mining industry arc 44; the Arbitra-tion Court was responsible for that. Let ussee what has occurred in the past regardingthe bank-to-hank system and the body con-stituted to deal with disputes in the mining

2342

[3 DECEMBER, 1936.]

and other industries. In 1920 the bank-to-bank system wvas granted in the Meekatharnaaward operating over the Murehison, Yak-goo, Peak Hill and Gascoyne Goldfields, andthe area between the 24th and 26th parallelsof latitude. in the Northampton award itwas asked for by the union, but expresslyrefused b)y the court in November, 1923.

lioo. J1. Cornell: WNIhy did the court re-fuse?

Hon. C. F. BAXTER: I do not know. vItwas asked for by the union -under thegeneral goldniining award (it includedNorthamipton) but expressly refused by thecourt in August, 1927. That award wasoperating over the principal goldfields ofthe State.

Hon. J. Cornell: The court always ad-vances reasons for these things.

Hon. C. F. BAXTER: I have not gotthem.

Hon. J. Cornell: Your information is notcomplete unless you give the reasons.

11on. C. F. BAXTER: It was granted inthe Meekatharra award by the IndustrialBoard iii January, 1928, following thecourt's decision in 1920. By agreement inOctober , 1931, the parties incorporated thearea of the Meekatharra award in thegeneral goldmining award, and the pro-visions of the general award thereforebecame applicable to this area, Meeka-tharra coming into line with all other goldmining districts in the State. There wasno whistle-to-whistle provision in the generalaward. The union therefore gave away thewhistle-to-whistle at Meekatharra by agree-ment.

The Chief Secretary: They are not -work-ing the bank-to-bank system there!

lion. C. F. BAXTER: I have given therecord.

The Chief Secretary: You say they arenot working the bank-to-hank system. Thelist does not include them.

Hon. C. F. BAXTER: It might not. Ihave given instances of -which there arerecords. The position is that since the sys-tem was refused in 1927 by the ArbitrationCourt theme has not been a wove to approachthe court. If there is justification forthe system, has any member the temerity tosay that t1- court will not grant it? Are weto constitute ourselves a tribunal to say thata system shall be granted -which the Arbitira-tion Court-, with evidence to act upon which-we can never get, will not grant? Why do

not the unions approach the courtagain? The court is sitting in Hal-goorlie dealing with the mining award,but they have not put this matterbefore the court and asked it to ad-judicate. If the system is warranted I donot think they need worry about the courtnot grantin-g it. Mr. Elliott suggested-itstruck mec as rat-her peculiar when I heardit last night-that the mines had produced30 million pounds profit. That seemed to mea big amount of money so I started to findout what it meant. Unfortunately for himthe position has been investigated in themeantime so that the court now sitting atKalgoorlie could be supplied with the par--ticulars. The records covering the past 20years disclose that £19,500,000 has been in-vested whilst £7,500,000 has been paid individends.

The Chief Secretary: To what are youreferring?

Ron, C. F. BAXTER: The gold mines. Itwvill thus be seen that only approximately 40per cent. of the investments has been re-paid. This is not profit. No profit can beassessed from gold mining until the capitalhas been repaid.

Hon. J. Nicholson: Over how many years!Hon. C. F. BAXTER: I do not know. I

only got my information over the wires to-day.

Hon. C. G. Elliott: That is absurd.Hon. C. F. BAXTER: The Minister for

the department can get the inf ormation. Ihave to search for it wherever I can in a verylimited time.

Hon. J. Cornell: The hon, member evi-den'tly found a very useful source.

lion. C. G. Elliott: It is absolutely absurd.Hon. C. F. BAXTER: I did not interrupt

the hon. member when he was speaking lastnight. I let him continue on his weary way.If he wants to dispute this, let him find outthe facts at Kalgoorlie during the week-end.

The Chief Secretary: Give him the facts.Hon. C. F. BAXTER: I am giving him

the facts from the industry. If there areany facts-

Hon. C. G. Elliott: They arc having a jokewith you.

The PRESIDENT: Order!Hon. C. F. BAXTER: The costs of

mining are very important. One wouldthink by hearing the discussions that takeplace that every mine in Western Australiawas paying big dividends. Only a smallpercentage are showing a proft. Many

[COUNCIL.]

mines are not paying- exp~enses and if thecosts of operating- are to be increased be-cause some are paying dividends, it willmean that many low-grade mines will beforced to cease operations. The greatestcare should be taken, consistent, of course,with good wages and working conditions forthe men, which will be granted by the Arhi-tration Court, to encourage the industry.Otherwise our gold production wvill be conl-siderably reduced and many employees willbe thrown out of work. The industry has beendiscouraged by several occurrences qnd verylittle capital has been invested in the industryin recent years. Ini this connection the prin-cipals of the Sons of Owalie mine state thatif the bank-to-bank system is applied it willmake a reduction of 111/ per cent. in theoutput. If the same ratio applies to low-grade mines, I am afraid they will ceaseoperations. The Arbitration Court has thismatter in hand and w-ill not penalise theindustry. The desire of the court is to keel)the industry going, consistently with reason-able conditions for the men. The bodyto handle this; and every other disputeis the Arbitration Court. Parliamentestablished it for that purp~ose. Thenallow the court to carr-v out tile workgiven them to do. if the court fails, then dis-place the members of the court. That couldbe done under the Act. But let them pro-ceed with the work they bare been given.They are the people who canl obtain the in-formation and they know all about the in-dustry, flow can we adjudicate upon sonmc-thing about which we know very little? ThisHouse is constituted of 30 members, and arcwe going to turn to a legally constitutedbody and tell them we are going to over-ride their work and alter the working eondi-tions of the men? If we are, the soonerwre scrap the Arbitration Act, the better.I oppose the second reading.

HON. J. CORNELL (South) [8.1]: ThisBill is a very short one, but it deals withmatters which should be approached inquite a dispassionate spirit. Boiled down,the issue is-Has the Arbitration Courtpower to amend Section 41 of the MinesRegulation Act or has it not? If it has,there is no necessity for the Bill; if it hasnot, there probably is need for the Bill. Itappears to me that the contention about en-eroachimnent by Parliament upon the func-tions of the Arbitration Court is somewh~atoverdone. There are two industries, wo)rk-

in-' under statutes that do mlore or less en-eroach upon or circuimscribe the powers ofthe Court of Arbitration. I refer to theworkers who conic tinder the Factories andShops Act and the workers who come underthe Mines Regulation Act.

The Chief Secretary: What about thetimber workers?

Honi. J. CORNKELL: They canl be left out,of consideration for the moment.

The Chief Secretary: They are in thesame category.

Hozn. J. COB-NELL: There we have twowell defined branches 'of daily activity.There are sound as well as historic reasonswhy Parliament has encroached upon theAritration. Court. Those laws camne beforethe arbitration lawx. Mining regulations,were adopted long before there Was anly ideaof settling industrial disputes by arbitration.They were introduced for a definite reason,namely to affordi better protection and betterconditions for the men engaged in the min-ing& industry. In 1901 the Arbitration Actwas lpassed; in 1900 the Mines RegulationAct was passed. A p~erusal of the MinesRegulation Act discloses that it has onepurpose. The sole purpose is to protectand safeguard those individuals employedfor hire in the minling industry. That is thesum total of the Act. The law provides thatno manl shall work underground in any minefor more than 48 hours in any -one week.For good and Valid reasonIs the ArbitrationCourt has since reduced the hours. Mr.Justice Powers reduced the hours, of workunderground because he considered that theconditions underground were more conduciveto the ruination of health than were theconditions of the luen working, on the sur-face. That was his reason for reducing thehours. Since that reduction, the hours havenot been reduced by any court. Consequetitly, an attempt is being madeto secure a further reduction. Section41 of the Act provides that men.emsployed underground shall descend in -theacompanies' time and shall return to thesurface in their own time. The effect ofthe Bill would be that the men would de-scend underground and return to the sur-face in the companies' time. Let us con-sider whether the conditions have alteredsince the Act was passed. What was thedepth of mines in 1906 and how long wasneeded to change shifts? To-day minesrange in depth to over 3,000 feet and longer

13 DECEMBER, 1930;] 24

time is required to change shifts than whenthe law was originally passed. I under-stand that this Bill has been introducedbecause Section 63 of the Act, though itpermits many things to be done, would notpermit of the framing of regutlations to in-clude the provisions that appear in the Bill.That would be contrary to the existing Act.Consequently the Bitl has beets introducedand, if given effect to, the legality wouldnot be questioned. whereas the legality ofa regulation making similar provision couldbe contested anid, .I believe, would 1)0 up-set. The question of the cost to the min-ing industry of the bank-to-bank systemdoes not concern me. It never has con-cerned mue. Where the life and limb ofthe miner is at stake, his welfare mustrank first. If any member investigatesthe conditions of development in SouthAfrican mining, he will find that almnostone- hundred million pounds has been spenton the reconditioning of mines to improveventilation and permit of more economicalworking. Mr. Baxter, in citing the Sonsoff Gwalia mine, chose a very unhappyillustration. Any mining man worth hissalt would say there was only one thing tobe done with the Sons of Owsalia mine andthat was to sink a new shaft. ft will haveto he donec sooner or later. That coursewas adopted on a Johannesburg mine oper-ating down to 8,000 feet in order to abolishthe underlay and secure more economicalworking. A distance of half a mile isinvolved at the Sons of Owalia. mine Inorder to descend and return to the surface.If the Sons of Owalia mine paid smallerdividends and installed a new shaft-pro-vided the values exist-it would work, outto the advantage of the shareholders. Be-cause the Sons of Owalia mine continues tooperate with an obsolete shaft, I cannotsee why the men should be penalised. Mr.Baxter was also unhappy in his citation ofthe Arbitration Court's refusal in 1927 togrant the bank-to-bank system. To usethe words in the "Industrial Gazette,''the members of the court were guided bythe financial position of the mines, Thecourt practically relissed to grant, not onlythe bank-to-bank system, but also any in-crease in wages or inmproveinent in condi-tions. What was the reason? 'Not lackof sympathy for the men, but svumpathyfor the mining industry itself.

Hon. C. F. Baster: Then the men wouldprobably get the bank-to-bank system ifthey applied to the court.

Hon. J. CORNELL: The "IndustrialGazette'' contains the following remarkcsby the president:

We hare to decide what is best to dtofor the present and future. The union ask intheir application that wages be increased byapproximately 2.5 per cent. The confideatial re-port Nhich the court has obtained from a c-om-petent and impartial public official convinces-me that to agree to the union's atpplica-tionwould immediately make something like 1,400members of the union unemployed. This figuredoes not include those employed on the SouthKalgurli mine, and to that another should beadded the hundreds of others whose employmentwould terminate with the stoppage of mutingand treatment.

The South Kalgurli mine paid dividendsright through the piece. That is why thatinine was exempted from the calculations.

Judging by experience in time past as to themnmbers of people whose sustenance dependedupon each miner I give it -is a conservative esti-miate that to aecede to the u-nion's request foran increase of pay would deprive 8,000 peopleof their means of living.

Those were the reasons advanced by thecourt for refusing p~ractically all the claimsof the union.

Hon. J. J. Holmes: Including the bank-tohank system 7

Hon. J. CORNELL: Yes.lt. J. J. Holmes: Then the court has

power to grant the hank-to-bank systemi ifit so desires?

Hon. J. CORNELL: The members of thecourt did not commit themselves.

Hon. J. J. Holmes: Have they the powver?That is what I want to know.

Hon. J. CORNELL: I am arguing thatthey have not. Two years ago the court re-solved not only to increase the basic wage,but to grant an industry allowance of Ifs.to 12s. a week because the price of gold hadincreased by 100 per cent. This was in-tended to give some consideration for thedisabilities suffered by the men when themining industry was in the doldrums. Toargue that the court has already refused+-he :bnk'rtq-bauik system and should be,approached again is beside the question. Idoubt very much whether the evidencewould disclose that the bank-to-bank requesthas beens prosecuted at all.

Hon. C. F. Baxter: All the miore zeagonwhy the men should go to the court now.

2345

2346 [COUNCIL.]

Hon. J. CORNELL: If Mr. Baxter and tion of being between two stools. We shouldother members will consider the mines regu-lations framed under Section 63 of the Act,particularly in relation to ventilation, theywill discover that regulations have been pro-nmulgated in recent years that have cost themining companies twenty times as much asthe adoption of the hank-to-bank systemwould cost. I have already indicated thestatement of the Minister for Mines, thatunder the Mining Act a regulation could notbe drafted to provide for the bank-to-banksystem sneh as the regulations framed togovern ventilation. I think the Minister isright. Therifore, the only alternativewas-

Hon. J. J. Holmes: To go to the court.

Hon. J. CORNELL: No, to introduce thisBill. Now let me deal with the court. Inthe Burnside award-during the hearing ofthat case the present 'Speaker appeared forthe applicant union-the court varied thewet and dry bulb temperature fixedby regulation uinder Section 63. Italso varied the general rules, 22to 35, with regard to change rooms.It also made some variation in the generalrules. The late Mr. Justice Burnside waschairman, of that court and it is now notori-ous that an award -was given that was alto-gether contrary to the evidence. The resultwas that it closed one or two mines by fix-ing the wage at 15s. when it should havebeen 14s. 6d. Since then Mr. PresidentDwyer has presided over the ArbitrationCourt and it will be found in a recentaward that an applicant union wanted himto deal with wet and dry bulb temperature.Mr. Dwyer, however, said "No, I do not carewhat the other court did, this is fixed byregulation under the statute and it has theforce of law; it should be altered by regu-lation."

Hon. J. J. Holmes: Has the court madea bank to-bank award?

Hoa J. CORNELL: I do not know.Hon. J. 3. Holmes: I1 understand the court

did do so, and so there must be authorityto make the award.

Hon. J. CORNELL: The ArbitrationCourt is the authority to do a lot of things,but I venture to say that many of the thingsdone by the court would not stand a testfor 20 minutes in a court of law. It isabout time that the workers employed infactories and shops and the workers in themaining industry were lifted from the posi-

say whether they are definitely under theArbitration Court or uinder the statute thatprotects them. One section says, "Let thecourt do it." Another section says it canonly be done by Act of Parliament. Thefact remains that the worker gets it wherethe chicken got the axe. Personally I con-sider that most of the men employed by themining industry, that is to say, those whoare in authority, are anxious to give thefullest consideration to the men, and theywvould not be grievously affected if we madeit mandatory that the underground workerbad to go below in his own time and comeup in the employer's time. My experienceis that those in authority are very decentchaps and are prepared to do a fair thing.If we took a consensus of the opinion ofthe men running the shows, we would findthat they were prepared to do what wasreasonable and fair. Personally I do notcare whether the Bill is passed or lost. WhatI do want to arrive at is where these menstand. Are they in the court or are theyout of itl Up to date no hon. member hasbeen able to tell us in what category thesemen are. I shall support the second read-ing of the Bill.

HON. E. H. ANGELO (North) [8.20]:Although I did a little gold mining when Iwas a lad, it is nearly 50 years since I wasactively engaged in the industry, and con-sequently, being- practically a layman on thissubject,' I listened most attentively to theintroductory speech of the Chief Secretaryand also the other speeches that have beenmade for and against. I think I can say thatI have never heard so many contradictorystatements made on any Bill before. Wehave had supporters of the Bill tell us howlittle it will affect the employer and whatit will mean to the employee. On the otherhand, we have had the opponents of theBill telling us what a bad effect it will haveon the mining industry and how little it willaffect the miner. It is very difficult, in aease like this, for a layman to adjudicateon the subject, and to determine which wayto east his vote. Being desirous of castinga vote, I have fried to weigh the matter andI have come to the conclusion that this isnot a question which we should decide, butthat it is a subject which should be deter-mined by some tribunal that has power tocall evidence, go thoroughly into the matter,and, after careful consideration, come to a

[3 DECEMBER, 1936.] 2347

decision. We have an Arbitration Actwhich was established by the Labour Partymany years ago.

Members: No, not the Labour Party.Hon. J. Cornell: Sir Walter James was

responsible for it.Hon. E. H. ANGELO: Anyway, it has

been wecll and truly eulog-ised by the LabourParty. We were told last night by severalmembers that a majority of the mines hadalready adopted the bank-to-bank system,and that only a few were not carrying it out.Tonight we have heard something totallydifferent. There, again, how canl we, whoare not actively engaged in the industry,come to it decision? I have arrived at theconclusion that this is a job not for us butfor an independent tribunal. I come nextto another query that entered my mind Onlthis matter. We heard last night a numberof statements that this was a job for theArbitration Court. Later on Mr. Drewqueried that and read Section 41 of theMines Regulation Act. I always take acareful note of anything said by Mr. Drew;,I have done so ever since I have been in thisHouse. Mr. Drewv threw a doubt as towhether the Arbitration Court could actunder that section. Being interested, Itook a copy of the Bill to a legal friend ofmnine, not a member of this House, a manwell up in the legal profession.

Hon. L. B. Bolton: That would, of course,be a reliable source.

Hlon. E. Hf. ANGELO: He is a man whois not in any way connected with the miningindustry. After reading the Bill, he con-sidered that Mr. Drew was right. Hedoubted very much whether the ArbitrationCourt could deal with this question, becauseSection 41 was fairly definite on the sub-ject. He agreed with mue that this was amatter which should be referred to theArbitration Court and that Parliamentshould lose no time in amending the Act inthe direction of giving the court the rightto settle this question, not for us to settle it,as it is proposed to do by the Bill before us.

Hon. J. Cornell: A roundabout way ofdoing it.

lHon. E. H. ANGELO: -No, the correctwar. Instead of asking Parliament, consist-ill, of a number of laymen, without any evi-dence before them and able only to acceptthe. statemecnts of one side or the other, alldifferent and very contradictory, my legalfriend said the proper course was to refer

it to the Arbitration Court, and that weshould give the Arbitration Court the powerto deal with it. He suggested a remedywhereby we could get the Act amended soas to give the Arbitration Court the powerto deal with the subject.

Hont. J1. Cornell: I have no wish to bepersonal, but what did all this advice cost?

Hon. E. H. ANGELO: I have never he.grudged payment for good advice. It is theduty of at member whbo may not be quitecapable of grasping a situation to get thebest advice he can. My friend suggestedthat in this Bill we should strike out allthe words after "by," in line 13, and insertiii their lplace "adding at the end of Sub-section (2) the following words:- 'or if anaward or industrial agreement made anid inforce under the provisions of tbe IndustrialArbitration Act, 1912-25, aned relating tosuch p~erson so prescribed until such personis actually returned to the surface."'

Hon. 3. Cornell: We could amend theArbitration Act for that reason only?

Hon. E. H. ANGELO: Yes.Hon. 3. Cornell: But there are 20 other

matters to be dealt with.Hon. E. H. ANGELO: I asked this legal

gentleman how we could deal with thismatter, and he said it was open to theGovernment to amiend the Act so as toenable not only this question but all simi-lar matters to be submitted to the Arbitra-tion Court.

Hon. H. Tuekey: It should have beendone years ago.

Hon. E. H. ANGELO: It is never toolate to mend.

Hon. J. J. Holmes: Will you tell us whothis ''Mr. X'" is9

Hon. E. H. ANGELO: I am satisfied thathis opinion is correct. He suggested that,while the Bill was before the House, Ishould endeavour to get it so amended thatthe Arbitration Court could be approachedto settle not only this argument but allsuch matters that might arise. I am afraid,in view of Section 41 of the Mines Regula-tion Act, there cannot otherwise be a safeapproach to the court. I shall vote for thesecond reading, on the understanding thatif the particular clause uinder considera-tion is left as it is, I shall vote againstit. If the Governmient can amiend it so asto enable the moiners to approach the courtto deal xvith this and other sinmilar mat-tev ., I shall vote with them.

2348 [COUNCIL.]

HON. L. B. BOLTON (Metropolitan)[8.3'2]: It is not my intention to speak atany great length on the Bill. After lis-tening to the debate for and against, I feeldisposed to vote against the second read-ing. I do so because I amn definitely ofthe opinion that the bank-to-hank questionshould be dealt with by the ArbitrationConrt, and not by Parliament. The Arbi-tration Court was created to investigatesuch questions, to regulate wages and thehours of labour, and to decide conditionsof employnierit. After listening to thedebate, I have come to the conclusion thatthe court has been asked once to decidethis question, and on this occasion I think-the court should again have been asked todecide the matter before it was brought toParliament. I am a firnn believer in theArbitration Court, and am decidedly op-posed to Parliament fixing wages or Icursof labour under any conditions whatever, ifit is at all possible for the court to adiiidi-cate. It has occurred to me that, in viewof the speeches we have heard, a smallproportion only of the men in the industryare working under the conditions set upin the Bill. I believe something like 400men are working under those conditions,and well over 8,000 arc not working- underthem.

Thle Chief Setretary: You do not believethose figures?

Hon. L. B. BOLTON: Yes, because Iknow the source from wvhich they eman-ated.

The Chief Secretary: They are not comn-plete.

Hon. L. B. BOLTON: They are fairlycomplete.

Hon. C. G. Elliott: What was the sourceof your information?

The Chief Secretary: I will reply to thatwhen I close the debate.

Hon. L. B. BOLTON: Perhaps the Min-ister has more complete information, but Iam informed that the figures I quoted arefairly accurate. My contention is thatsuch questions as that involved in thebank-to-bank application should be decidedby the Arbitration Court and not by Parlia-ment. That being so, I shall oppose thesecond reading of the Bill.

HON. H. S. W. PARKER (Metropolitan-Suburban) [8.35]: It has always caused memuch distress to hear matters raised in this

House with regard to the mining industry.One is led to believe that the mines are notfit places for any human creature. All theminers, it would appear, die of silicosis; noworker there lives beyond 45 years of age;all in the mines are threatened with dangersof all sorts and descriptions. To me itseems a most dreadful advertisement forWestern Australia, the most dreadful wecould possibly have. I cannot believe thatall these horrors exist.

Hon. C. G. Elliott: You try it for awhile,

Hon. H. S. AV. PARKER: I have re-sided on thme fields, and have been under-ground on various occasions. I was downwith Dr. Larcombe when he conducted ex-perimnits with, silicotie dust. I do not stig-gest tha t iiiig is a., healthy as fanrning.It has to be remembered, however, that thefarmers work for the full 12 months, andwork 14 hours per day. At the end of theyear, they owe money and have nothing.On the other hand, the miner enjoysa comparatively reasonable time withthe money he gets. True, he is liable tosuffer in health. So far as we are able, weendeavour to compensate the miners for thedifferent class of wyork that they are calledupon to perform. I do not think it wise,when mining matters arise, to en-deavour to show that the industry is eachthat no white or black man should he en-gaged in it. I shall dismiss from my mindremarks that we have beard along thoselines. I am no mining expert; I do not sup-pose any member would suggest I am. Ifear that some members who perhaps setthemselves up as experts do not, in fact,know much about the industry. But it ap-pears to me that they look at it from thepoint of view of the individual and not fromthat of all concerned. In those circum-stances, I feel that much of the informationfurnished to this House is such that, ifsifted, would not be found to bear the sameconstruction as we are led to believe. Imake these remarks in order to point outhow utterly absurd it is to ask this Houseto deeiAe conditions under which minersshall work. Imagine if the question beforethe House were taken to a division and tenmembers were in favour of the Bill beingread a second time, and ten were against it.I might then have the power of decidingwhether or not the Bill should be passed.All will agree-I am sure every workingminer would agree-that I have no right to

[3 DECEMBER, 1936.] 34

exercise such a discretion. The ArbitrationCourt -was set up for the sole purpose of de-termining industrial matters, and the courthas been vested with very extensive powers.It has been suggested that Section 41 of theMines Regulation Act prohibits the Arbi-tration Court from dealing with this par-ticular matter. That section provides that nominer shall work underground for more than48 hours per week, or more than eight hoursper day. The Arbitration Court has alreadyfixed 44 hours for that work. The sectionof the Mines Regulation Act provides thelimit, a