AFL ANTI-DOPING TRIBUNAL CHAIRMAN: MR DAVID …media.heraldsun.com.au/multimedia/2015/aug/project/pdfs/Day10.pdf · COUNSEL ASSISTING: MR JUSTIN HOOPER - ... 31.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal

AFL ANTI-DOPING TRIBUNALTHURSDAY, 22 JANUARY 2015

DAY TEN(TRANSCRIPT-IN-CONFIDENCE)

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CHAIRMAN: MR DAVID JONESMR JOHN NIXONMR WAYNE HENWOOD

COUNSEL ASSISTING: MR JUSTIN HOOPER

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MR J. GLEESON QC with MS R. ENBOM appeared on behalf of AFL.MR M. HOLMES QC with MR P. KNOWLES appeared on behalf of the

CEO of ASADA.MR D. GRACE QC with MR B. IHLE appeared on behalf of 32

players.MR N. CLELLAND QC with MR D. HALLOWES appeared on behalf of

Mr and Mr

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.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal MR GRACE22/01/15 (VOIR DIRE)

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CHAIRMAN: Good morning. Mr Grace, would you like to tell ushow you would cross-examine Mr Alavi if he was here?

MR GRACE: Yes. Before I do that, could I please tender asforeshadowed the Australian Customs and Border ProtectionService document dated or referring to the date 2 December2011 in relation to the search of Mr Charter atTullamarine on that day.

CHAIRMAN: That was referred to. What is the date of the entryinto Australia?

MR HOLMES: Is this on the voir dire or in the main case?MR GRACE: At the moment in the voir dire. It may be

converted.CHAIRMAN: It depends what happens.MR GRACE: Yes. Let me say this, sir. If the ruling was to be

against us on the voir dire as to admissibility, we wouldconfirm that, but we would seek to tender in the hearingproper a number, if not all, of the documents that weretendered in the voir dire.

CHAIRMAN: We understand that. What we would understand theposition to be, in the event that the Tribunal decided toadmit this evidence, would be that you would seek as partof your case and submissions to adopt and repeatsubmissions that you have been putting to us in relationto the credibility of these witnesses.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: And you would seek to also use various documents as

part of your submissions on the credibility of thewitnesses and the weight to be attached to their evidence.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: We would anticipate that. We wouldn't expect you to

go in effect repeating everything that you have given to

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us as part of this voir dire.MR GRACE: Correct.CHAIRMAN: And it would be sufficient to identify it and just

say, "We repeat and adopt it for the purposes of oursubmissions on the issues of credibility".

MR GRACE: Yes, sir.CHAIRMAN: That will be PG-18 on the voir dire, which is the

Australian Customs information report.#EXHIBIT PG-18 - (Voir dire) Australian Customs and Border

Protection Service report.MR GRACE: I also seek to tender the sentencing reasons of

His Honour Judge Smallwood of the County Court of Victoriadated 2 February 2007 in the case cited as The Queen vCharter. I seek to tender that. It's unreported.

CHAIRMAN: That will be at this stage for the voir dire aswell. We will just mark it.

#EXHIBIT PG-19 - (Voir dire) Sentencing reasons of His HonourJudge Smallwood in relation to the case of The Queen vShane Geoffrey Charter.

MR GRACE: Could I take you to paragraph 35 of that judgment orreasons for sentence.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: That's the paragraph that refers to his cooperation

with the police and the direction that's contained on thethird line that, "... the court records indicate that youhave undertaken to give evidence in accordance with astatement made by yourself on 25 October 2006, and to givewhatever assistance is needed to Police and the Crown inrelation to the prosecution, or potential prosecutions, ofthe people referred to in that statement."

He did give such evidence and it was in relation

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to the trial of a man called Butler and we will tender acertificate from the Registrar of the County Court as tothe result of that trial which resulted in an acquittal ofMr Butler. That's in the course of production by theRegistrar at the moment.

CHAIRMAN: Okay.MR GRACE: The last thing about Mr Charter was I wanted to

revisit the comments I made in relation to the lastparagraph, 27, in the document of the list of questions inorder to clarify what I said because I may haveinadvertently misled the Tribunal.

CHAIRMAN: I'm sure you wouldn't do that. This is paragraph27.

MR GRACE: Yes. That relates to the SMS in relation toThymosin Beta-4 and I need to take you to exhibit 4.2 atpage 12. Sorry, if I could go to page 34 first.

CHAIRMAN: This is on the text messages.MR GRACE: The text messages, page 34. You will see that on

11 December Dank and Charter are talking about organisingreally their business.

CHAIRMAN: Just give us a number.MR GRACE: At 42. Then 43 talking about registration of

Dr Ageless for R&D.CHAIRMAN: I'm on the wrong page.MR GRACE: Text messages between Charter and Dank.MR CLELLAND: What page of the volume?MR HOLMES: I think it is number 42.CHAIRMAN: Line 42 of page 34 of the SMSs.MR GRACE: Yes. I just wanted to refer you back to those just

to give you the context. Then there's discussion,exchange of text messages about effectively their

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business. But then you will see 47, Charter to Dank, "Gotthe sequence for the SARM and IGF-1. On your return wewill go over the peptide business model." Dank to Charterat 48, this is on 13 December, "Hexarelin", there is 20mills by 60 and so on. Then 52, this is on 4 January,"Hi, mate. Can you text me Serge's phone number." That'sDel Vecchio. Then 53, Charter to Dank, this is on11 January 2012 at 1.17 am - - -

CHAIRMAN: It's really 12.17 pm.MR GRACE: Sorry, I'm looking at the wrong column on that.CHAIRMAN: Just so we're clear, the first column is - - -MR GRACE: Yes, GMT.CHAIRMAN: And the second column is local time.MR GRACE: Yes. "Which peptide do you need next? Quantities?"

Dank to Charter, "Thymosin Beta-4 then CJC-1295". Now,Mr Holmes opened on the basis that's an order at least inpart for Essendon. There's no suggestion that CJC went toEssendon or perhaps there's no suggestion that any of theplayers received CJC. But you will see the context was"business model", "Serge". Serge had nothing to do withEssendon. Then, "Which peptide do you need next?" It'sclear that the SARM and IGF which is referred to and theHexarelin in 47 and 48, there's no suggestion there that'sfor Essendon.

MR HOLMES: Sorry, I thought the business model was a monthbefore.

MR GRACE: Yes, I'm talking about December. Then 55, Dank toCharter, "Thymosin Beta-4 then CJC-1295." Then Dank toCharter, "Hi, mate. Thymosin 20 by 5 ml vials." Now, hedoesn't say Thymosin Beta-4. That's on 12 January. Thenthe next entry, 57, Wednesday at 11, "meeting with Andre".

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No one knows who Andre is. I don't think theinvestigators know who Andre is and we have never beentold.

Then if we go to page 12, what's happening isthat Charter is having conversations with Dank by text andin turn Charter then has conversations with Alavi. So atpage 12 you will see, shortly after the conversation withDank at 2.20, Charter speaks or texts Alavi, "ThymosinBeta-4 then CJC-1295 Steve wants next." That correspondswith the communications - - -

CHAIRMAN: The earlier ones.MR GRACE: The earlier ones. Then later on, four hours later

on that Wednesday the 11th, and this is at 9.52 pm,Charter to Alavi, "Still have not heard back fromSildenafil and Tadalafil." I think that's Viagra or somederivation of Viagra. "Just make a 20 milligram mixtureof each and you will know from there. I can try if youneed to." Charter to Alavi, and this is the next morningon the Thursday at 11.18 am, "I'll pass by in an hour orso. Have the solvent preservative you are using. I willtry tonight on some of the RP6 I have. If it worksI could have all the equipment to you by Saturday." Alavito Charter at 2.23, "No worries, buddy. See you shortly."So that's at 11.19 a.m.

Then obviously something happens because Alaviand Charter have a meeting, by inference. "See youshortly. I'm going to drop by." So there must have beensome discussions that occurred, we would say, that wewould like to explore. Then you have Charter to Alavi,"Hi, mate. Thymosin 20 by 5 ml vials. Steve's request."That's at Thursday the 12th at 9.19 pm.

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If you go back to page 34, you will see that Dankhas told Charter at 9.14 pm that night, "It's Thymosin 20by 5 ml vials." Doesn't mention Thymosin Beta-4.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, that's number 56.MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: That's at 9.14.MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: This one is at 9.19.MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: So five minutes later.MR GRACE: Five minutes later he's texting Alavi, "Hi, mate.

20 by 5 ml vials. Steve's request." Then Charter toAlavi on the Sunday the 15th, "Hi, mate. Thymosin 20 by5 ml vials. Steve's request. Do you know when it will beready?" Now, given that Charter has placed orders and onour case obtained Thymosin and Thymosin Beta-4, in hismind he knows there's a difference. There's clearlyevidence in the form of the transcripts of conversationshe's had with various persons, including Mr Hargreaves andthe investigators, that he knows the difference betweenThymosin and Thymosin Beta-4. Yet these text messagesadmit of the distinct possibility he's talking to Alaviabout compounding Thymosin.

It doesn't fit in with ASADA's case theory,I appreciate that, and there might be arguments for andagainst that. But that begs the question as to the factthat we are deprived of the opportunity of cross-examininghim on such a crucial issue.

CHAIRMAN: I assume also in cross-examining him you want toexplore that orders were being placed in relation to othercustomers.

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MR GRACE: Yes, and also was this two orders? Was this oneorder for Thymosin Beta-4 and one order for Thymosin? Wasit for Dank and van Spanje's business, that is theThymosin Beta-4? Was the Thymosin for Essendon? How canone be sure? This is an issue that we would want toexplore of both Alavi and Charter in cross-examination.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: So that puts it into context. Then you have of

course on 12 January at 6.42 am, at page 227 of AS-3,Charter to Alavi and a copy to Dank with the way in whichyou can make up TB500 or Thymosin Beta-4, the formula forwhich Professor Handelsman has commented upon we would sayadversely. So all of that has to be factored into theequation as to the difficulty for the Tribunal and for theplayers in eliciting the truth of the meaning of thesetext messages and communications between the parties as towho the order was for and where it went, of course, andgenerally in relation to the intentions of the parties.

I might add that the sleeper in all this ofcourse is Mr Dank. The only information that's beenproduced so far in relation to what Mr Dank has to sayabout any of this is what's contained in the text messagesand the emails, his interview with Mr McKenzie of The Ageand I think it's in the materials, but I think to a lesserextent in terms of probative value, the interview he hadon the ABC 7.30 Report. You haven't seen that. I'm notsure if Mr Holmes is relying upon that or not, but it's inthe materials.

Mr Clelland will address you at length onwhether - - -

MR CLELLAND: I don't know about "at length".

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MR GRACE: We have divided it up. He will address you on theissue of the admissibility of the Dank material as againstthe players and of course we would have wanted tocross-examine Mr Dank.

CHAIRMAN: Wait a minute. Let's assume Mr Dank was here andrepresented or representing himself and decided not togive any evidence.

MR GRACE: Interesting issues arise as a result of that. Butin no circumstances could what he says to a third partywhich would otherwise be regarded under the rules ofevidence - and I appreciate we have differentconsiderations here - as hearsay.

CHAIRMAN: There's no question, Mr Grace, I think, that if wewere in a criminal court, the record of interview ofaccused A, if accused A doesn't give evidence, could notbe used against accused B or in any way. Accused B couldnot use it if there were favourable things in the recordof interview in the event that accused A did not giveevidence. If accused A gives evidence, he can becross-examined and it is all admissible.

So it is a question which no doubt Mr Clellandwill address as to the use of the Dank material, bearingin mind that Dank is the subject of infraction notices.So it can be said of course against Dank that there areadmissions against interest.

MR GRACE: Yes. All right. Now I want to move to Mr Alavi.CHAIRMAN: Okay.MR GRACE: The first item is the Thymomodulin photo. I don't

think you have seen this.CHAIRMAN: I don't think so. It doesn't ring a bell. I don't

think that means anything after 10 days.

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MR GRACE: It is in AS-1. It is referred to in the opening.CHAIRMAN: In the outline of the case, Mr Holmes's outline of

case. It is referred to there, is it?MR GRACE: Yes. We will just find the exact - can I just hand

this up.CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes, this probably is a good example of a

document that will fall within the ambit of the evidencefollowing your paragraph 44, namely being a document thatyou have referred to but you didn't specifically take usthrough in your opening, but one no doubt you would wantto rely on.

MR HOLMES: I'm just wondering the context in which it wasreferred to.

CHAIRMAN: Do you have the opening there?MR GRACE: Paragraph 8.22.MR HOLMES: It has been referred to, "taken after July 2012".MR GRACE: If you go to AS-3, page 456.CHAIRMAN: I have it.MR GRACE: We would want to ask Mr Alavi the obvious question.

"Did you compound Thymomodulin? Did you type this labelor cause it to be typed? Did you place this label on thisbottle? If you did, did you give it to Mr Dank?" We knowfrom an interview conducted with Mr Dean Wallis, who wasthen employed by the Essendon Football Club, that hephotographed this bottle in the fridge of Mr Dank.

CHAIRMAN: At Essendon.MR GRACE: At Essendon in July 2012.MR HOLMES: After. In September.MR GRACE: In 8.22 they say after July 2012.CHAIRMAN: Let's stick with that.MR GRACE: Yes. Can I ask you to go to Mr Mullaly's affidavit,

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DM-24. Sorry.CHAIRMAN: There would be a page down the bottom, Mr Grace.

That would help.MR GRACE: 168. DM-25. The video that's been produced also is

of assistance because you may recall there was somewhat ofa better close-up of the labelling on the various bottlesshown in the video. But even on DM-25 at page 168 you cansee the type of typeface, how it's printed. If youcompare that to the Wallis photograph on page 456 of AS-3,we would say it's identical type.

CHAIRMAN: The 168 I have is just typing. Mr Henwood ispointing to 173.

MR GRACE: Thanks, Mr Henwood. That's perhaps a lot better.You don't have expert evidence before you as to acomparison of the typeface on the Wallis photograph ascompared to this, but we would say that there are distinctsimilarities. On the Wallis photograph, for instance, youcan see what appears to be a batch number underneath theword "Thymomodulin". Then a concentration.

CHAIRMAN: And some numbers.MR GRACE: Yes. I'm not sure what that is, but it appears to

be micrograms, some amount of "micrograms/ml". If youlook at the photograph of page 173 of Mr Mullaly'smaterial, you can see a similar method of communicatinginformation on the label in the bottles in that photographand you can see the same font, we would say; distinctsimilarities. So that's a very important question.

Also the colouring of the top of the bottle. Youwill notice in 456, which accords with player interviews,which we will come to eventually, you will see on theWallis photograph there's no apparent colour code. It

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appears to be some sort of nebulous grey colour.CHAIRMAN: Or white.MR GRACE: Or white. There's a colour photo which appeared in

the Herald-Sun newspaper, a great source of information inthis case over many months - - -

CHAIRMAN: I thought you might ask Mr David Galbally.MR GRACE: Yes, he's a font of wisdom on this case too. He's

claiming to have a bona fide defence for us that's alludedall of us, but anyway. I call for the Herald-Sun colourphotograph which we believe is in the possession of ASADA.Apparently it was an exhibit.

MR HOLMES: We have asked them for it. We don't have it. Wehave taken a copy of the newspaper, so this is our copy ofa newspaper's copy of somebody's - - -

MR GRACE: In any event, apparently according to my friends'instructor, Mr Rawson, it was exhibited to an affidavitfiled on behalf of ASADA at a directions hearing beforethis Tribunal. Perhaps it was related to theconfidentiality proceeding; I'm not sure.

CHAIRMAN: I can't recall.MR GRACE: Or programming. I'm not sure.CHAIRMAN: Anyway, see if you can find it between you and it

can be formally received.MR GRACE: Or we could print it out from the web and we will

produce it. So this is a really important issue and nothaving Mr Alavi present impacts upon the eliciting of thetruth in relation to that issue.

I just want to go off on a general principle atthe moment because we need to put all this argument intocontext, in our submission. Mr Holmes will no doubt arguethat all this material that we are seeking to exclude is

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admissible; it's only a question of weight at the end ofthe day for the Tribunal to assess. If ultimately that'sthe decision of this panel, then that's how it willproceed. It will be a question of weight at the end ofthe day. But the problem is that we would expect, andI don't think this would be in any way challenged, thatASADA and the AFL will rely upon the truth to a very largeextent, one would have thought, of the statements untestedmade by Alavi and Charter and others in the course of thetranscripts of their interviews and in other documentationsuch as text messages and emails to support a case, tosupport conclusions and inferences to be drawn and theywill say, "Because of A plus B plus C plus D, it equalsguilt."

MR HOLMES: No, it's not a criminal case.MR GRACE: He's saying it's not a criminal case. It equals a

finding of a doping violation. Those steps in thatequation, the establishment of A and B and C and D,require an acceptance by the Tribunal of the truth of whatthese persons say. If the Tribunal then says, "Well, wecan't attribute much weight to this statement or thatstatement or this proposition," it becomes an exercisethat's almost impossible because ASADA would not get tofirst base and this highlights the problem that theTribunal faces.

Mr Holmes can point to lots of authority, theHigh Court down, even English authority, in relation tothe position of Tribunals such as this in the acceptanceof evidence and attributing weight and so on and he canpoint to cases which say, "Well, there's no right tocross-examine necessarily; it's all a question of

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assessing what is the crucial issue before the Tribunal tobe considered and determined and how the absence ofcross-examination can impact upon that particularconclusion or determination." And there are cases that goother ways that we would seek to rely upon.

In the end, the principles come down to if theessential issue for determination is so inextricably woundup with the credibility of witnesses who are not presentand who have made statements that are sought to be reliedupon by the prosecuting authority, then it truly becomes,we would say, a circumstance where the hearing ceases tohave the attribute that the rules say it should have; thatis, the provision of natural justice.

If we go back to the submissions that have beenfiled, even ASADA agrees that the rules that should beapplied include a requirement for this Tribunal to onlyact upon reliable evidence. I will find the exact rulethat says that. There's no dispute about it, I'm sure.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes was referring to the Code in relation tothat.

MR CLELLAND: Paragraph 4, Mr Chairman.MR GRACE: Thank you.CHAIRMAN: That's bound up with the fact that in the end, in

relation to the two elements of this violation, we have tobe comfortably satisfied of those elements.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: If it is a circumstantial case, then it's a question

of what's the position with the circumstances upon whichit's based and what's our position of satisfaction inrelation to those circumstances. Obviously ifcircumstances are based upon evidence that's subject to

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challenge which we consider the credibility is low, thenwe might reach a position that we are not satisfied thatcircumstance occurred. Then there may not be sufficientcircumstances that you can draw the inference from and,even if there are a range of circumstances, you are notcomfortably satisfied about drawing the inference. Thefact that ultimately they have to establish those elementsto our comfortable satisfaction is very important.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: Clearly if there are real issues about credibility

and reliability of witnesses, that's going to bear uponcomfortable satisfaction and then it will be connected towhat other evidence is there independent of thesewitnesses that might tend to support statements thatthey're making. That can be contemporaneous records.Even though the person's a participant in thecontemporaneous record, the contemporaneous recordprovides some support.

The difficulty about it, which you havehighlighted, is that you haven't been able to question theparticipant in the conversation about that conversation.There can't be any dispute that that conversation occurredand who it occurred between and when it occurred. Thatspeaks for itself. But, without the person whoparticipated giving evidence, you are unable to questionabout the conversation.

MR GRACE: Yes. That said, can I now move on in the list. Theissue of Bio21. It's either a complete furphy in thecourse of this investigation or it's of some relevance.No one is quite sure. No one is quite sure where thesample came from. Mr Alavi is crucial to that. No one is

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quite sure how much of a sample was used. No one is quitesure what the purpose of the Bio21 analysis was, incircumstances where there was no suggestion in any of thedocumentation that's been provided to us and to you as toany compounding of Thymosin Beta-4 for Essendon subsequentto that analysis. No invoices. No text messages. Noemails and so on. So that whole issue of Bio21, and wehave heard so much evidence about it - - -

CHAIRMAN: There is nothing in Alavi's statements about it, isthere?

MR GRACE: No, there is.CHAIRMAN: I couldn't recall.MR GRACE: He says something to the effect that they were

tested to see what the purity was, or something of thatnature, not with any surrounding questioning as to whatthe source was other than some vague reference to "AnthonyCharter". We will find the exact reference and providethat.

CHAIRMAN: I just couldn't recall whether there was anything inhis statements about this.

MR GRACE: The woman Vania, who is the manager or some positionwith Alavi who went to Bio21 to conduct these analyses,makes a statement which suggests that Thymosin Beta-4 wasused to make cream some time in July. At AS-7, part B1.

CHAIRMAN: The first tab? The first tab is Charter.MR GRACE: The interview of Alavi.CHAIRMAN: What page, Mr Grace?MR GRACE: Page 172.CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: You will see there at line 44 on page 172, this is

before discussing purity and checking. "So then it goes

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into the HPLC and we do a purity test to see how pure itis, whether the concentration is what we think it is andthat's through to it" - - -

MR HOLMES: Sorry, are you starting at line 1?CHAIRMAN: No, right at the bottom.MR HOLMES: Can I just draw your attention to the introductory

from lines 7 to 15. It really starts on line 1.CHAIRMAN: There is a reference to Bio21 there.MR HOLMES: Yes.MR GRACE: He is talking about, "If it's supposed to weigh a

certain amount, we can assume it's the right product."That's at line 13. "Then what you can do there, there'sanother machine there, you can break the peptide up intoits amino acids so it basically separates it, breaks allthe chains and you can get a list of all the amino acids."Well, he never did that.

MR HOLMES: Sorry, I don't know whether he did or not, butcould we just read the transcript as is?

MR GRACE: Can I present my submissions, please.MR HOLMES: I just don't want the transcript to be distorted by

your interruption.CHAIRMAN: It's all right. We have those passages.MR GRACE: Then he goes on to molecular weights in the next

paragraph. The rest of the conversation is about purity.At the bottom, line 44, "So then it goes into the HPLC andwe do a purity test to see how pure it is, whether theconcentration is what we think it is ...(reads)... I thinkAuspep. They're in Melbourne or just out of Melbourne."You will recall that's what Dr Vine gave evidence aboutyesterday.

CHAIRMAN: The most reliable source.

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MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: But expensive.MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: Which might explain some things.MR GRACE: "And I was having a chat to the guy there who's

saying how there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of dodgystuff out there, so be careful when you order." Then ifwe go on to page - - -

CHAIRMAN: Yes, the next line is interesting. "He couldn'tsell me any because they only sell to researchinstitutions," which is what the expert witnesses said.

MR GRACE: Yes. The point is he says HPLC is for purity andthat's the graphs we've got that have been tendered. Thenif we go on to page 175, at line 11 he says, "So I found abunch of tests that were done in March." He never did anytests in March, so we don't know what he's talking about,unless there are other tests, because the tests that havebeen produced are tests done in May.

CHAIRMAN: He's saying they were provided to him by Charter.MR GRACE: Yes. "I'm assuming these are the ones that Shane

Charter provided me." "Well, they're not Shane Charterbut Cedric ...(reads)... they all look pretty good.They're not very concerning. Just bear with me one sec."Mr Walker says, "So they look pretty good, not concerningin terms of their viability, efficacy?" Mr Alavi says,"Yep, purity. Purity was good."

Now, we don't know what he's talking about. Hemay be talking about a bodgie certificate of analysis.How he could determine purity from the graphs that's beenproduced is not explained. Then you will see at page 176,line 9, Mr Nolan asks him, "From those messages" - they're

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asking about SMSs at this stage - "you dispensed stuffbefore you got the arrangement going with Bio21?" Alavi,"Yeah, I think. I had a feeling I sent them all to EaglePharmaceuticals." Well, the only stuff he sent to Eaglewas some portion of something that he says he got out ofthe 0.25 of a gram.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, and they didn't test it because it was going tocost too much money to test it and he therefore lookedelsewhere.

MR GRACE: Yes. Then he says, line 16, "And that was anightmare, trying to get them out there. I've got somedocumentation about that. Yeah, all right. Because thatwas the first supply that came in. I was very worriedabout it, so I sent little batches off to Eagle."

"Very worried". It didn't stop him compoundingit, of course, according to ASADA. Then at line 40, "Theyhad a lot of trouble testing them, so it was a difficulttime ...(reads)... so I just assumed that they were allgoing to be okay. Then once we got the Bio2 we testedthem and they were fine." Then it goes on to othersubstances.

MR HOLMES: Look at page 174. It looks as though he joinedBio21 around March 2012.

MR GRACE: We know that he didn't go to Bio21 or cause anyoneto go there before May. The Bio21 documents that havebeen produced by ASADA to us indicate from aDr Williamson, who is the director there, that the firsttime Mr Alavi came there was April to discuss asubscription.

CHAIRMAN: And the tests were done in May.MR GRACE: The tests were done in May. So you can see, members

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of the panel, how just this brief reference to what Alavisays in his interview gives rise to a host of questions, ahost of issues that are really, we would say, very crucialfor your consideration and determination.

The next item is item 3, circumstances of ASADA'sattempt to make statements. He's made various comments tothe media about this, which we say - - -

CHAIRMAN: This is Alavi.MR GRACE: Alavi, yes, which affect his credibility. There is

a newspaper article, and I won't take you to it, but inessence it says that ASADA was trying to put words intohis mouth.

Item 4, discussions surrounding Thymosin, (a)what it was meant to do, (b) discussion of use for the AODstudy. In his interview at page 301 he talks about theuse of Thymosin for cold and flu. You will see at page301, line 7, "So in text 140 then he's asking me toorganise Thymosin for the AOD study ...(reads)... hewanted to trial Thymosin and AOD for cold and flu." Youwill recall this is sort of later in the piece. This isat the end of the season of 2012. "He kept going on aboutit and how, you know, he got a cold and he tried someThymosin and it fixed his cold because Thymosin boostsyour immune system ...(reads)... but he's not curinganyone, he's building up his patients list."

Mr Walker, "So I suppose a question arises fromthat was there a juncture where you were mixing AOD andThymosin?" Alavi, "No, because I don't know if they arestable together," and so on. So it was a proposal byDank. You will see at page 301 reference to the fact thatan HIV patient had been using it for years.

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CHAIRMAN: It looks an interesting patient.MR GRACE: Yes, and that he discounted it heavily because it

was part of a trial, at the last line on that page. Hediscounted it heavily.

CHAIRMAN: It's an interesting person you would choose for atrial.

MR GRACE: You will recall the research papers that wereprovided yesterday as to the possibility of Thymosin Alphabeing used to build your immune system, although of courseProfessor Handelsman cast doubt on the ability of that.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, he had doubts about that. But anyway, that'scertainly been raised.

MR GRACE: That's certainly been raised. Then item 5 is theCJC and TB4. You'll recall that text message thatI referred to in early January that I have taken you to inthe context of Mr Charter, so I won't go further intothat.

Item 6, the crediting of the Essendon invoice.Now, there's been a lot said about this and if you go topage - - -

CHAIRMAN: They are all in AS-3, I think, those documents.MR GRACE: If you go to page 135 of Alavi's interview.CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: You will see at 135 line 5, Mr Walker, the

investigator, asks, "It's probably a good juncture becauseif you look at that receipt that you issued to Essendonwhere you had the peptide Thymosin" - page 135, do youhave it?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: Line 5, "If you look at that receipt that you issued

to Essendon where you have the peptide Thymosin, Hexarelin

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credited ...(reads)... and he's using as a cover to supplythat MRC or ICB."

Alavi says, "I think MRC was being used. Sothere's no prescription with an athlete's name on it...(reads)... that stock was given to Steve to take withhim to Sydney or wherever it was he was going."

So Alavi is saying that was given to go toSydney. "Then we thought, oh, it's for a clinical trial.So I reckon he's taken that and he's gone and injected allthe players with it." That's an assumption by Alavi. Buthe says it's zeroed off because it's not going toEssendon, it's going to MRC. Then he jumps to theconclusion that it is going to Essendon because it willmake Dank look good.

Of course, the leading nature of all thequestions in the interview has to be taken into accountwith the underlying assumption posed by the investigatorthat the substances are being given to Essendon playersfor performance enhancing purposes.

CHAIRMAN: Was there a connection in terms of him not chargingwith them being fried?

MR GRACE: Yes, that was a later explanation. The firstexplanation was this. Then later it was fried. Then ifyou go to page 266 at the bottom of the page, againtalking about the accounts, line 43, "Can you recall whofrom Essendon spoke about the peptide Thymosin, Hexarelinbeing mistakenly on the receipt?" Mr Alavi, "It's so longago. I don't think actually they queried it ...(reads)...which is with the peptide Thymosin."

Sorry, that's all I wanted to refer to on thatpage. I was going on to another page that I will come to

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in a moment. So even though it was zeroed off, he saysEssendon wanted to question the inclusions on theiraccount and that's where you go to page 268, line 16."Who from Essendon queried that?" Alavi, "Yeah, yeah,okay. And were there credits on those invoices?" Walkersays, "It's exactly as you see there." Alavi, "Yes, sothey were wondering what the hell was going on. Well, whyare they even there. That's probably what they" -Walker, "Yes, they wanted to query the bill ...(reads)...yeah, even though it had been credited."

Then if you go to 272 you will see some referenceat the top of the page to blue, yellow, red caps and thesedifferent vial sizes. Mr Walker says, "When you look atthe Thymosin there, can you recall what particularThymosin that was?" Mr Alavi, "No." "No, okay." Alavi,"This is the problem. A lot of us at the pharmacy thoughtall the Thymosins were the same."

Then we go to his second interview on11 December. The first interview I was talking aboutwas - I will give you a date in a moment, but the secondinterview was on 11 December 2013.

CHAIRMAN: That's in tab 3, I think.MR GRACE: He was interviewed on five occasions.CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: The Aaron Walker affidavit, that was filed - - -CHAIRMAN: The Walker affidavit sets it all out, Mr Grace, and

he was interviewed on 19, 26, 28 November, 11 December and14 April 2014.

MR GRACE: Yes. Only three of the interviewed transcripts havefound their way into the materials. Four, sorry. Onehasn't.

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CHAIRMAN: There's a written statement, isn't there, fromAlavi.

MR HOLMES: We understand that all have been included in thetender bundle and in the Walker affidavit.

MR GRACE: We will sort that out.CHAIRMAN: Yes. Walker certainly refers to all the occasions

in his affidavit.MR GRACE: Then you go to page 66.CHAIRMAN: This is of the interview of 11 December.MR GRACE: 11 December.MR HOLMES: Tab 3 is the combined three interviews in November.

Sorry, tab 2. They are all there.CHAIRMAN: It is in tab 2.MR HOLMES: Tab 2 has 19 November, 26 November and 27 November.

Tab 3 goes to the one in 11 December and tab 4 goes to theone on 14 April. They are all there.

CHAIRMAN: On 11 December we don't have a page 66, Mr Grace.That's the problem.

MR GRACE: I have given you the wrong date. On 14 April - - -MR HOLMES: That's tab 4.CHAIRMAN: This is 2014 now.MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: 66, right at the end.MR GRACE: Line 11, "You've got another delivery on

18 February" - sorry, I will start at the top of the page."In December you had even after wastage maybe 800milligrams left. You've got another delivery on18 February. Yes. Which leaves room with plenty." So hecan't have 800 milligrams from 250. "And you've got norecords in terms of Thymosin received on 18 February,Thymosin received, whether it has gone to Stephen Dank or

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ICB? No. Those invoices would be with my IMG company."I don't recall seeing anything that identifies

that going until invoices which were much later in thepiece and are not relevant to your consideration.

Then item 7 on the list, supplying one of Dank'sentities, either MRC or ICB, and this is at page 288 ofthe first interview, line 26. "So text number 5 when he'sasking for GHRP6, one milligram per ml, of Thymosin 2 mgper ml, that was very early on so we are still in talksabout potentially supplying one of Dank's entities withthese products." So that's item 7.

Item 8, we would like to ask him generally inrelation to his practices in relation to compounding.Item 9, who compounded the December delivery? Item 10,I touched on this of course, evidence in relation tocompounding anything from the February 2012 order. Noevidence.

At page 302 of the first interview, this is line6, talking about him and Dank, "Every request he wasringing and the referral was painful in one way oranother. Yep." Mr Alavi, "So I was getting more and morefrustrated at this time. Text number 144 he was askingabout timeframe for AOD maybe. Manufacturing riseworldwide. Timeframe for Thymosin. So we haven't madeit. He's asking us to make it."

If you go to 144, these are the texts betweenAlavi and Dank. This is on page 21, AS-4.

CHAIRMAN: 144.MR GRACE: Yes, and following. So this is what he was talking

about there. You will see 145 and so on.Then if we go back to page 302, "I think this is

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probably one of his" - he's talking about bugging. Thisis Walker saying, "I think this is probably one of histrials. Everyone was speculating about what he might do.So that's okay." Mr Alavi, "He was bugging Vania to dosomething. I told Vania don't do anything for him unlessI approve it. Yeah."

He says at line 28, "I've just answered backwith, you know, what I've got here. Yes. I'm justtelling him that we're going to try and aim for TGAregistration because with the worldwide manufacturing riseit can't be done in a compounding pharmacy." So thesejust highlight some of the issues that go unansweredwithout him.

Then item 11 on our list, the signedacknowledgment in relation to WADA approval. If we go to137 of the interview, this is the first interview, againI refer to that reference at line 35, "It was given toSteve to take with him to Sydney."

At 259 in the same interview he's talking aboutthat backdated document that Mr Holmes relies upon. Thisis at line 18, "So he's come in without me even seeing it.I really do not remember signing this." Alavi says, "Thereason why I'm so definite about it is because I refusedso many times to sign it." And there is evidence in theform of his statement that - - -

CHAIRMAN: Was it the statement he said it was fabricated or -- -

MR GRACE: Yes.

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But then what's significant on this page is Alavisays at line 23, "And the reason why I'm so definite aboutit is because I refused so many times to sign it." Walkersays, "Okay. If I put aside whether you can recallsigning it, looking at the content of what's said inthere, do you agree with the content?" Alavi says, "No,because I don't know whether it's Thymomodulin."Mr Walker says, "Thymosin Alpha or Thymosin Beta-4?"Alavi, "Yeah, I don't know which one it is. So I had tobe mad to sign this. And also this does not contain anybanned substances. I don't know whether Thymosin orThymomodulin is banned." "And what about the backdatingof the February date and he's sending this to you inJune?" "Yeah, well, he was asking me to sign this prettymuch since February."

Then over the page Walker tells him at line 14,"A decision was made with the club no new supplements canbe given without the concurrence of the club doctor."Walker tells him about the protocol. Alavi concludes at26, "So he's done this very quickly." Mr Nolan says, "Andthe other issue we think triggered him too was that AminaCowry sent him an email with an attachment where a cyclistover in I think Belgian had just been banned for the useof TB500, the very substance Charter has brought in."

This is Mr Nolan, the investigator, telling Alavi

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that Charter has brought in TB500. We don't know where hegot that information from. Nolan says, "And within a weekhe was screaming trying to get you to sign this." Wellthe timing just doesn't add up.

So if Charter has brought in TB500, he's onlybrought it in - well, he hasn't brought it in physically.If he's caused it to be brought in, he's only caused it tobe brought in either in December or in February. But itseems here that what's being talked about is the Decemberbatch, because at the bottom of the page Nolan asks him,"He was stressing because he knew that there was TB500that they had actually supplied the players in the firstinstance."

"Yes, so I reckonhe's come in and done this because he would come in anduse the fax, you know, he'd use the computers. He was apest." So Nolan has walked Alavi into adopting a theorywhich is based on a false premise that it was TB500.

Then later down Alavi says, "He was there almostevery day." Nolan says, "Can he get on the email systemand email to himself? That's the issue." "Easily. Theemail is always open. It's always open." Walker, "Whenyou look at the signature, it's close to yours." Alavisays, "Well, I had a really good look at it. It'ssimilar, but I mean, you know, I'll sign a piece of paperfor you so you can see. Can I sign this?" Walker says,"No." Then there's some paper provided. I don't knowwhat ever happened about that.

Then over on page 262 Walker says at line 6,

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"Then on prior occasions Stephen Dank had been in areas ofthe pharmacy where he shouldn't be and that Dank had beenpestering you, you think from around February, to signsomething of that nature?" "Yes." "Before I producethese documents to you today, to the best of yourrecollection you never signed it? I never signed it."

Then if I go to the next text message, "Beforewe move on from there, just to go back, it was just inthat exhibit earlier on, Thymomodulin 180, 181,182" - these are the text messages - "which is the stuffthat you say is the alpha isn't the stuff that wasrelevant to the produce that went out the door in January2012?" He says "Yes." Doesn't say "no". This isambiguous. This is something that's pretty crucial thatwe would want to ask him about.

Then the investigations by the ASADAinvestigators reveal that the document signed by Alavi hasbeen transmitted very late at night, I think,

CHAIRMAN: At some stage, yes.

What is significant is that the theory of ASADAis that it was due to the publication of what happenedwith that Belgian cyclist that caused Dank to be alarmed

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about the problems, but that wasn't until April or May.If he has been pestering him about it since February, itcan't be related to that information about the Belgiancyclist. So these are issues that we would want toexplore.

Then if we go down on page 262 a bit further,line 30, "Has this testing got anything to do with Dank'spressure to come up with a document asserting it wasThymosin Alpha or Thymomodulin?" Alavi says, "No, it doesnot. The reason why was because I assumed they're all thesame ...(reads)... and it's just for routine to go andtest it." "So you got new batch products from who?"Alavi says, "Well, Cedric probably this time and I'vetested it just because that's what we normally do. Sowhen we get a new batch we want to test it to make sureit's the right stuff."

Even going behind that February order there is asuggestion, of course, that Charter and Anthony are on thesame team, but where is the evidence that Charter had

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anything to do with the February 18 batch? This issomething we would want to ask Alavi. Even Alavi said hegot it from Anthony, not from Charter. So this is anadditional problem.

Then we go over to page 263. He's askedquestions about the Thymosin 20 times vitamin vial, andI have taken you to the SMS texts about that. Alavi asksWalker, "Is this the same supply that they are talkingabout?" Alavi has no idea, it would seem. Walker says"Yes". So it's a pretty leading type of discussion that'sgoing on.

"It appears to me - you can correct me if it is adifferent recollection, that is just checking on how faroff you are saying it is going to be ready some timetoday." Alavi says, "Yes". Walker says, "Okay. Then onthe 16th, if you look at that, there's a text message fromyou to Charter ...(reads)... to find out what it's solublein and try the CJC letters and the next one he needs."

Issues that arise in relation to that are these:There is, it seems, the possibility of wastage, the"floaties" and so on; the Charter comments about the35 per cent sodium saline solution, and you saw ProfessorHandelsman's horror yesterday in his evidence about thesuggestion that comes from Charter that it was attemptedto be dissolved in a 35 per cent saline solution.

CHAIRMAN: That's when he was talking about sludge.MR GRACE: Yes, it would just be sludge. So these are the type

of things that one would want to ask a compoundingpharmacist who was compounding purportedly this particularproduct.

CHAIRMAN: Would it be convenient to take a short break,

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Mr Grace?MR GRACE: Yes.

(Short adjournment.)CHAIRMAN: We are up to number 13, Mr Grace?MR GRACE: Yes. Could I just indicate that because of the

confusion about the way in which the interviews arereferenced in the materials, we will provide to you anupdated schedule in relation to the page references in ourdocument as to which interview it relates to.

CHAIRMAN: That will be helpful. Thanks for that.MR GRACE: Also could I hand up the Herald-Sun article of

17 November 2014.CHAIRMAN: That's the one you referred to?MR GRACE: Yes, that's the one I referred to. I seek to tender

that.#EXHIBIT PG-20 - (Voir dire.) Herald-Sun article, 17 November

2014.MR GRACE: Also could I hand up a colour reproduction of that

page in the exhibit to Mr Mullaly's affidavit thatI referred to earlier which contains a photograph of thevarious peptide bottles that he was offering for sale.You may recall the video. And also a photo of the Wallisbottle and a superimposition of that Wallis bottlealongside that photo in Mr Mullaly's affidavit to give youan indication of comparison.

CHAIRMAN: Okay. I think those documents don't need to beconfined to the voir dire. Mr Mullaly's affidavit is infor the general proceeding, so we will make it PG-21.

MR GRACE: That just aids the comparison we were trying to dovisually earlier.

CHAIRMAN: Wallis photos and comparison.

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#EXHIBIT PG-21 - Wallis photos and comparison.MR HOLMES: Mr Jones, I agree with it going into the main

proceedings. This really is an advance copy of theirfinal submissions. We will have additional stills fromthe Facebook video which support the, I guess, comparisonbetween the typescript on the bottle in the Wallis photowith that used by Como Compounding Pharmacy.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, as shown in the video, for example.MR HOLMES: Yes. But our photos will be referring to Thymosin

Beta-4 and the 3,000 that I mentioned.CHAIRMAN: Okay.MR HOLMES: So can I object on the voir dire because these

really are final submissions.CHAIRMAN: They are being put forward as examples of matters

that Mr Grace says that he's disadvantaged by not beingable to canvas with Alavi and if Alavi's evidence goes in,obviously he will rely on it in terms of his finalsubmissions as well.

MR GRACE: I'm instructed that what I have just tendered interms of a photograph of a range of products was from thewebsite, not from the Mullaly affidavit.

CHAIRMAN: Okay.MR GRACE: The website is in the Mullaly affidavit, but not

that picture.CHAIRMAN: Not that picture, okay. But it is still appropriate

to receive it generally, bearing in mind what's in theMullaly affidavit.

MR GRACE: If I could move to item 13, the AOD, and if we go topage 154. This is the first Alavi statement. We haveascertained that this date is 26 November 2013, thisinterview. You will see about line 10 or line 9 Mr Nolan

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says, "Effectively Essendon, and you would have probablyread the charge sheet" - - -

CHAIRMAN: So we are clear about that, what that's referring tois the charge sheet from the AFL against Essendon inrelation to the charge against Essendon that they actedcontrary to the rules in that they brought the game intodisrepute, and that document ultimately got publishedgenerally. Is that what we are - - -

MR GRACE: Yes, that's what we are referring to. That waspublished I think - - -

CHAIRMAN: That was August 2013.MR GRACE: August 2013. So Mr Nolan says, "Effectively the

players gave consent to be injected with Thymosin AOD...(reads)... and what we do know is that Steve had accessto other substances."

So that just highlights the - - -CHAIRMAN: That's helpful to you.MR GRACE: The AOD issue, yes .CHAIRMAN: I don't think you'd cross-examine him about it.MR GRACE: No. But it just highlights the general problem that

we have about this.CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: There is no intention to call Mr Nolan. We have

requested that Mr Walker be called, but we are not surewhat the answer to that request is going to be. But theseare some of the issues. If we go to number 14, the Bio21documents. If we go to 175, "Bunch of tests that weredone in March".

CHAIRMAN: Yes, you took us to that a little earlier.MR GRACE: Yes, I did. But the point I'm making about this is

that in the bundle of documents that's been produced from

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Bio21 you will see reference to the fact that the person,I can't remember the name of the person, who's the generalmanager of Bio21, inspected all the documents.

MR HOLMES: Is this from the exhibits or from outside theexhibits?

CHAIRMAN: Has the Bio21 stuff gone in?MR HOLMES: I'm just wondering which part of the Bio21 - - -CHAIRMAN: Yes, that's what I'm wondering too, Mr Holmes.MR GRACE: There was a one-page statement. What occurred

was - - -MR HOLMES: Sorry, is the document from which you are drawing

these statements in the evidence, either on the voir direor the - because I don't want to dispute it if it is inthe evidence.

CHAIRMAN: No, I'm not sure either, to be honest.MR GRACE: I'm not sure.CHAIRMAN: There has been a lot of talk about the Bio21 and

that was obviously the professor had access to - - -MR HOLMES: I appreciate the players have had access to a lot

of documents for a considerable period of time.CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOLMES: So the instructions Mr Grace is working on might be

documents outside of the evidence.CHAIRMAN: Yes, that's important to ascertain, I think.MR HOLMES: But I assume it's in the evidence somewhere.MR GRACE: It is ASA-2.MR HOLMES: Is it an exhibit?MR GRACE: I assumed it was an exhibit.MR HOLMES: If that could be tendered. I have no objection if

this is tendered.CHAIRMAN: We don't need to if it's already in.

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MR HOOPER: I don't know what that particular document is tocross-reference it with the exhibit list.

MR GRACE: Perhaps I will just re-tender it. That would be theeasiest.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOOPER: AS-18 is part D, section 1 and 2 of volume 1.CHAIRMAN: AS-18 is it?MR HOOPER: The section 2 disclosure notices and documents.CHAIRMAN: That's all the company searches. Disclosure notices

and all that sort of thing.MR GRACE: This hasn't been tendered. We would call for the

original disclosure notice and the response to it. Therewere two notices served on Nicholas Williamson PhD, thedirector of Bio21. They are dated 17 December 2014,signed by Mr McDevitt, the CEO of ASADA. Pursuant tothose notices there were documents produced, the Bio21 USBstick that went to Professor Handelsman - well, I'm notsure the stick went - - -

CHAIRMAN: And Dr Vine.MR GRACE: And Dr Vine, together with hard copies of various

graphs and other documents. Can I just outline a bit ofthe background.

MR HOLMES: Can I just respond to the call. We do not have theoriginal disclosure notice and the documents produced incourt.

CHAIRMAN: Do you have copies?MR HOLMES: We don't have a copy, but I have no objection to my

friend tendering the notice and the bundle of documents hehas there.

CHAIRMAN: We can work off those.MR GRACE: The problem is mine is marked. We may have an

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unmarked one. We seek to tender that and we will tenderthree complete clean copies after lunch.

MR HOLMES: Can you give us a copy as well?MR GRACE: And we will give a copy to Mr Holmes.CHAIRMAN: That will be PG-22.#EXHIBIT PG-22 - Bundle of documents ASA-2.0074.0001 to

ASA-2.0074.0100.CHAIRMAN: There is a whole bundle of disclosure notices,

et cetera, that have already been tendered under AS-18.So I don't see any reason why this should be just confinedto the voir dire, although you are obviously referring toit on the voir dire.

MR GRACE: No, it shouldn't just be confined.MR HOLMES: No objection.CHAIRMAN: So it will be in generally.MR GRACE: Yes. Can I just explain what this bundle is. On

17 December there were two notices to produce served onMr Williamson. The first notice that you see requests himto provide a number of documents. The documents that arerequired to be provided are set out in schedule 1, whichis the fifth page. You will see on the fifth page, "(a)any and all records pertaining to the use of and/oranalysis conducted at the Bio21 mass spectrometry andproteomics facility by any of the follow entities," andthe dates and the names are listed; "any and all recordspertaining to analysis conducted at the Bio21 massspectrometry facility," et cetera, which have a file path,and you will see all of that.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: As a result of that, all those graphs were produced.CHAIRMAN: Yes, which have been the subject of the evidence of

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the experts.MR GRACE: Yes. The next notice was a notice to give

information. Do you see that document?CHAIRMAN: I'm just going through all the legislation that's

attached.MR GRACE: We won't worry about that.CHAIRMAN: Then there's the graphs, et cetera. So we have

another notice.MR GRACE: Yes. So the first is 15 pages long.CHAIRMAN: Yes. I have the second one.MR GRACE: That's headed "Notice to give information".CHAIRMAN: Yes, that's the one, and it is dated also

17 December.MR GRACE: Yes. We would say this is a very important document

together with the response to it. If you look at page 4you will see the schedule. Dr Williamson is required togive the following information: "In respect of the eightreports, the Alavi reports, which are annexures 2 to 9 ofthis notice, a statement answering the followingquestions: (a) whether the Bio21 mass spectrometry andproteomics facility holds copies of the Alavi reports; (b)whether the Alavi reports were created by Bio21; (c)whether Bio21 generates reports or has a template forgenerating reports in the same or a similar format to theAlavi reports. In addition, a statement answering whetherNima Alavi or Vania Giordani had access to Bio21 as at13 March 2012. If they did not have access as at thatdate, please advise when Alavi and Giordani first hadaccess to Bio21."

CHAIRMAN: So what they have done is that the first noticerequires them to produce documents.

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MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: The second virtually acts a bit like in the way of

an interrogatory in the sense that they are asked toprovide answers, information, rather than documents in thesecond one.

MR GRACE: Yes. The significance of that is on that page 175that I took you to in the interview of 26 November, "SoI found the bunch of tests that were done in March" -March 2012 - "and I'm assuming that these are the onesthat Shane Charter provided me with." Do you see that atline 11?

CHAIRMAN: Yes, and there is reference to "Cedric".MR GRACE: Now, the plot thickens,

We go to the statement produced byBio21.

MR HOLMES: Gentlemen, apart from the hyperbole we would alsonot accept lines 11 and 12.

MR GRACE: You don't accept?MR HOLMES: No.MR GRACE: From the Alavi interview.MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: I'm just trying to find the statement. We have the

charts.MR GRACE: I will give you the number of the page.

ASA-2.0074.0001.CHAIRMAN: It's on the back, okay.MR GRACE: This is a statement signed by Dr Veronica Borrett,

the general manager of Bio21, dated 23 December 2014. Itrefers to those two notices that I have taken you to. Itreads as follows, "Dear Mr Rawson, the University ofMelbourne's responses to the above two notices are set out

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below. Please note that these responses are to the bestof the knowledge and belief of myself as general managerand Dr Nicholas Williamson, the manager, based uponreasonable enquiries and system searches."

You will see the first heading, "ASADA notice toproduce documents".

CHAIRMAN: There's the memory stick.MR GRACE: The memory stick and the printouts.CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: So I won't read that. Then the second heading,

"ASADA notice to give information dated 17 December 2014.1(a)." You need to go back to the notice to giveinformation in the schedule. 1(a) is "Whether the Bio21mass spectrometry and proteomic facility holds copies ofthe Alavi reports." 1(a) the answer is, "No, theuniversity does not hold copies of the Alavi reports."(b), "Whether the Alavi reports were created by Bio21.""No, the university did not create the Alavi reports."

Now, these reports are ones that are headed"Bio21" and purported to be done in March. (c) "WhetherBio21 generates reports or has a template for generatingreports in the same or a similar format to the Alavireports." Answer to (c), "Regarding the Alavi reportscomprising annexures 2 to 6 of this notice, no, theuniversity does not generate reports in this format nordoes the university have a template report in thatformat."

MR GRACE: "Regarding the Alavi reports comprising annexures 7to 9 of this notice, this format appears to be a standard

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default report format generated by the university system.This report would appear on the screen at the time of useand may be printed out by the user at the time of use, butno copy would be retained on the university system afterthe time of use. To the best of the recollection ofDr Williamson, the first attendance by Alavi at the Bio21facility was on 12 April 2012 to discuss the use of themass spectrometry facility."

So if we go back to the annexures, do you seeannexure 2?

CHAIRMAN: Yes. That's what they are referring to.

MR GRACE: That's the marking that Mr Ihle made. I thoughtMr Holmes might have slipped that in. But, no, it'sMr Ihle's.

CHAIRMAN: It's Mr Ihle's.MR GRACE: It's common ground.CHAIRMAN: At least that's something that's not in dispute in

this case.MR GRACE: Annexure 2 through to annexure 6 - - -CHAIRMAN: It might explain Mr Alavi's absence too.MR GRACE: Yes. This is the man that reliance is placed on for

certain things.CHAIRMAN: On certain things.MR GRACE: And this is obviously a crucial area that we would

like to ask him questions about which not only affect hiscredibility - - -

CHAIRMAN: He might decline to answer on the grounds that hewould incriminate himself.

MR GRACE: Yes. I don't need to say any more about that, I'msure.

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CHAIRMAN: Okay.MR GRACE: Item 15, reliability of things from China. I have

already taken you to issues about that. You will see inthat listing under 15 the issues that are raised by that.Of course added to that is the evidence of Dr Vine andProfessor Handelsman.

Item 16, I have taken you to this already."Pressure from Charter." "We need product." "Who wasasking you, pressure from whom and why?" I should haveactually focused on that 15(c) before going to 16 where hesays at page 177 at the top, "So you may have done a firsttest with Eagle? Yes. Then you did a subsequent testwith Bio." This follows on from the pressure that he sayshe's getting from Shane at the bottom of page 176, sayingabout the $1,500 that Eagle wanted.

"This, I guess, is Shane Charter's orCedric's batch. So it was still within range but itwasn't perfect. They've got Hexarelin there."

CHAIRMAN: So the graphs are genuine. It's the other documentsthat there's an issue about.

MR GRACE: Yes.MR HOLMES: It's the Bio21 documents with the letterhead.CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: Yes, the Bio21. So that's what I wanted to take you

to in relation to 15(c). Then 16, that goes back to 176

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I have just taken you to.17, the problems with compounding which I have

already taken you to at 263 about the floating substances.The 14 April interview at page 36. It says interviewnumber 2 in my document, but that's wrong. It should bethe 14 April 2014 interview, interview 5.

CHAIRMAN: So we are looking at the last interview?MR GRACE: Yes, the last interview at page 36. At the top of

the page Mr Walker asks him - do you have that, sir?CHAIRMAN: No, just hold on a sec. What tab is that in?MR HOLMES: Tab 4.CHAIRMAN: And page 36.MR GRACE: Line 3, "Can you remember what the dissolving issues

that you had with the Thymosin was?" Alavi, "I think itwent cloudy. I think it might have gone cloudy, so we hadto figure out how to dissolve it. So a little bit of, youknow, research we had to do and find - figure out that itwouldn't dissolve in water which it dissolves in sodiumchloride." Mr Alavi, "So that took a little bit of timeto figure out which means we would have had some wastage.So that's the one that went cloudy."

This wastage is a pretty important issue becausehe only had a quarter of a gram according to ASADA's case.

CHAIRMAN: At that point.MR GRACE: At that point.MR HOLMES: No.MR GRACE: Well, they are now saying he had 10 grams.CHAIRMAN: Anyway, that's the way you interpret it.MR GRACE: We interpret he had a quarter of a gram. Then it

goes on to other issues. Then you will notice thatProfessor Handelsman - this is raised by 17(c) - says

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there were problems with compounding either product ormethod. We don't know what method was employed. On26 November, at page 263 - I have already taken you tothis and you don't need to refer back to it - Alavi says,"You need a month or two of testing, but they were in arush."

Then at 179 on the 26 November interview, this is18, the Thymosin Alpha analysis, I set it out. You willsee one of the batches he got from Cedric he talks aboutdifferent weights and he can't be sure.

Then in the 14 April interview in relation tothis issue, at page 64 he's asked at line 3, "Amongstother things that you had got from Sichuan", Mr Walkersays - and you may recall that around about June Alavi wassourcing from a different source, not GL Biochem.

CHAIRMAN: Chinese.MR GRACE: Chinese, yes. "They're all Thymosin Beta-4. You

also think you may have been provided by accident or bymistake Thymosin Alpha because you got a vial of ThymosinAlpha - yep, correct - at the chemist - yep, yep - and thevials are such that the vials that came from Sichuan werepackaged a certain way, that is packaged in the same way,so I can't really say that the vial came from Cedric orfrom Shane - no - or anyone else because they werepackaged a different way."

So what he is effectively saying, Thymosin Alphawas sent by mistake from Sichuan, arrives packageddifferently from that which arrives from Charter andAnthony. However, following the compounding they all lookthe same and it may be the compounded product which istested at Bio21. But it's not clear at all.

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At 184, item 19, Dank sources the peptides.I have already taken you to that reference at 184 aboutgetting substances from elsewhere. But it is important tonote that in that first interview Mr Walker says at line16, "Interestingly, Steve did get some stuff tested atNumatos." I'm not sure whether that's Mimotopes; shouldhave been typed Mimotopes. "But it wasn't Hexarelin."Mr Alavi, "Really? Interesting. So he did use them inthe end ...(reads)...

CHAIRMAN: What, he's someone whowas selling stuff on the side?

MR GRACE: Yes.MR HOLMES: I'm not sure that that's the inference - - -CHAIRMAN: It is hard to think of anything else.MR GRACE: But Alavi knows all about it. We could have asked

him. Mr Holmes could have asked him too.he

doesn't record it, you know. But if you could find whathe's imported you could see what he's brought in."

Then we go to item 20.MR HOLMES: Just before we leave that, I'm told - and I'm not

familiar with the Alfred Hospital - there are retailpharmacies there.

CHAIRMAN: There would be.MR HOLMES:CHAIRMAN: You wouldn't normally expect to be getting

substances like this at a retail pharmacy.MR GRACE:

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CHAIRMAN: Probably is.MR GRACE: Maybe the investigators could tell us that. Then

item 20, compounding dosages, we say not enough substancein the quarter of a gram. Item 21, we list deliveries,how many and when and what.

Then item 22, the interchangeability of his useof Alpha and Thymomodulin. Dank saying they're the samething. He saying, and I have taken you to this, doesn'tknow whether it is Thymomodulin, TB Alpha or 4. At page260 of the interview on 26 November interchangeability ofTB500 and TB4 is pronounced, and even Mr Nolan is gettingit wrong.

Item 23, orders from China. What was received?When? Records of receipt; we don't have any of that. At243 of that 26 November interview you will see - - -

CHAIRMAN: In relation to records of Mr Alavi, I mean, he wasasked to produce records and he did produce some records.

MR GRACE: Yes, he did.CHAIRMAN: What you are saying is that what he's produced

doesn't cover these things that you are referring to.MR GRACE: No, it doesn't cover the quarter of a gram. The

only record about the one gram on 18 February is the

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register in someone's handwriting of receipt of one gramof Thymosin; not Thymosin Beta-4, Thymosin.

Can we go to the bottom of 242. Mr Walker saysat line 31, "Shane Charter then made a second order fromChina, yeah, via email. Can you remember the quantitiesthat were requested ...(reads)... Okay, was two grams ofGHRP6 et cetera and 0.25 grams of Thymosin Beta-4."Mr Alavi, "Yeah, that sounds about right."

Mr Holmes now says he had more than that, butthere is no proof of that.

CHAIRMAN: Is this convenient, Mr Grace?MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: 1.30.LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT

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UPON RESUMING AT 1.30 PM:CHAIRMAN: Mr Grace, I think we were on the orders from China

when we adjourned.MR GRACE: Yes, number 23, and all the details around that

which are so vague and uncertain. So, what received;when; records of receipt. I think I have taken you to thepart where he says he never got 5 grams of ThymosinBeta-4, in that 26 November interview, and all he got was0.25 of a gram.

Could I take you to page 304. This is still26 November. At the top of the page, "We can get theThymosin ready in two weeks. Can you meet with Robin andI, 3.30 Thursday?" This is later in the piece in 2012."So I guess this is the 9 grams which he was promisingwhich never came. You know one gram came and I would bevery surprised if David Kennedy had actually given him$36,000 worth of AOD for research, knowing what he knows,you know, as a CEO of a pharmaceutical company. There'sother ways of doing things."

I just want to put that in context. It is notDavid Kennedy, it is David Kenley. David Kenley was theCEO of a company called Metabolic Pharmaceuticals. Kenleywent with Dank on his second visit to Dubai, I think - - -

MR HOLMES: It's November 2012.MR GRACE: November 2012 and saw Dr Fricker. You may recall

that whole interchange between Dank and Fricker. Kenley'scompany was conducting tests on AOD as an anti-obesity andperhaps other benefits.

CHAIRMAN: That's what he was talking to Fricker about, wasn'tit?

MR GRACE: Yes. But to put this into context, what's occurring

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is that Dank's trying to inveigle Alavi into this sort ofbusiness of AOD marketing. Dank, it seems, wants tocommence some sort of research study of sorts, but ofcourse not in the type of way that Professor Handelsmantalked about that one would have to do things. This isall amateurish-type stuff. You will see on page 21 of thetext messages between Dank and Alavi at AS-4.2 - - -

CHAIRMAN: Which number?MR GRACE: 140.CHAIRMAN: Yes. Alavi to Dank.MR HOLMES: That's the earlier trip.MR GRACE: Yes, that's the earlier entry, but you will see that

the genesis is back with that entry, Alavi and Dank, andthere's some earlier discussions perhaps as early as3 May. But 140 is 9 May. Alavi says to Dank, "Hi Steve,I will be contacting the Qatar contact later today...(reads)... my IMG business partner will be in contactre AOD Metabolic and Qatar." So Metabolic is Kenley'scompany.

Then Dank says to Alavi, "Can you organise theThymosin for the AOD study? Have you started the study?"Alavi says, "I'll let Vania know."

CHAIRMAN: "I have now started the study."MR GRACE: Sorry, yes.CHAIRMAN: He says he has started it.MR GRACE: Then Alavi says to Dank, 144, this is in the chain

of texts on that day, "Just to give you an update I havetexted Matthew and asked him ...(reads)... placed arequest for increased production so that we are ready ifQatar inundates us." We don't know what he's talkingabout there. Peptide manufacture? Of what, we don't

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know.Dank to Alavi, "Great. I think the Qatar project

will reach maximum production in theory. I will ringVania this morning ...(reads)... from Metabolicpharmaceutical regarding you getting the worldwidemanufacturing rights for AOD." This is all puffery.

Alavi to Dank, "Sounds awesome, mate." Thentalks about, "We'll get TGA registration towards the endof the year. Perfect time AOD manufacturing." Dank saysto Alavi, "Hi mate, spoke with Qatar yesterday. Theirenthusiasm is as strong as ever." So they're all puffingeach other. It's all rubbish.

"I hope you get the same feeling in yourdiscussions with them. Also want to move quickly withTGR. I think we can capitalise on the possible cold andflu cases." Then over the page on to 148, page 22,"Sounds good, buddy." Then Dank to Alavi, "I'll follow upwith Essendon 105. That's a start." We don't know whatthat means.

Then Dank to Alavi on 16 May, 151, "Hi mate, I'vegot a massive AOD order. Can you source some?" Alavi toDank, "G'day Steve, I had some of it manufactured for mypeptide contact in China. What quantity are you after?It's likely to cost approximately 125 for 5 mls at 1,000micrograms/ml."

That's a significant text because, as you willdiscover, Dank is telling the Essendon players he'sinjecting them with AOD. He's been telling them thatsince February and there's no identifiable source. He'sconfirming he hasn't got any. The ASADA investigators saythere's no evidence that he had got any before around

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about July.Then you will see 158, "We now want to play with

the colds and flus now. We are in the season for it."Then Alavi to Dank, "Thanks for the payment. I willdouble-check the account tomorrow and let you know.Regarding cold and flu give me the combination strength,"et cetera.

Then on 18 May, Dank to Alavi, "Okay. We canbrainstorm then. I've got the SARMs creams for the bloodstudy but no vial. Can you ask Vania to make up two forme?" Alavi to Dank, "She should have a heap ready. I'llsend her an email to let her know you'll be in today sometime."

Then 165, 19 May, Dank says to Alavi, "Hi mate,your next project is Lactaway." Lactaway was somesubstance which is not prohibited. It's available, it's aliquid that you ingest, it's got something to do withrecovery and some of the Essendon players had it.

Then we go to the next page, 23, Dank to Alavi on3 July, 180, "Just wanted to finetune a few things. Alsobig news on AOD." Alavi to Dank, "Great stuff. I canmake my way there by 6.30." This is about an appointment.Then 182, Dank to Alavi, "They've given you and I $36,000worth of AOD for research. I've told them we are ready tostart. Can we get the Thymosin ready in two weeks. Canyou meet with Robin and I, 3.30 Thursday."

So when he's talking about "Thymosin ready in twoweeks", we say he must be talking about some sort ofcompounding of Thymosin. What Thymosin we don't know. Ifhe's talking about cold and flu, as the tenor of theconversation is, one could equally draw a conclusion he's

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talking about Thymosin Alpha.Then if we go back to that interview on page 304

that I took you to initially. These were the messages hewas being asked about. Top of page 304, "We can get theThymosin ready in two weeks. Can you meet with Robin andI, 3.30 Thursday. So I guess this is the 9 grams which hewas promising which never came. You know, one gram cameand I would be very surprised if David Kennedy hadactually given him $36,000 worth of AOD for research,knowing what he knows, you know, as the CEO of apharmaceutical company. There's other ways of doingthings." So that's the first mention of 9 grams that wasbeing promised.

If you go to our chart at 23(e), 10 grams wereordered. Charter says he gave one gram to Alavi forcompounding. That's in the Hargreaves interview. Doesthis 9 grams indicate the difference between the 10 gramsordered and the one gram provided? These are the types ofquestions that we would like to ask.

Then item 24 is the lab note, that's 18 February.It's at 279 of AS-3. You will see on 18 February 2012there's a document that Alavi produces to ASADA whichindicates that he receives one gram of various substances,including Thymosin, on 18 February. There's no lab notefor 28 December because Alavi says he never did thosetypes of notes prior to February. This was somethingI think that Vania introduced.

That's the18 February one, or the one that was said to attach to the18 February delivery. We don't know when it arrived. It

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around about that time? It may have just arrived."Then at line 29 Mr Walker says - - -

MR HOLMES: Is that in relation to CJC or GHRP6?MR GRACE: We don't know. At line 29 Mr Walker says,

"18 February 2012 delivery has come from Cedric? Yes, inthe records here. This is the manual records? Yes. Butyou then asked Cedric for some analysis" - - -

MR HOLMES: Can I just object. The pages my friend has jumpedover give some context to "it may have just arrived"because he can make sense of the Thymosin and theHexarelin, and the "it", as I understand it - and myfriend will correct me - goes back to the previous pagewhere they are talking about CJC or GHRP6.

MR GRACE: It may or may not be. It is what it is. This is anexample of what we would like to ask him. Then if you goback further down page 50, line 36, "This is the manualrecord? Yes. But you have then asked Cedric for someanalysis certificates. Yes, correct. He's then providedyou with them via email."

Well, no emails have ever been produced. ASADAhas got numerous emails from Alavi, but - - -

MR HOLMES: I think my friend should refer to Alavi's evidencewhere he said, his computer crashed and he'slost - - -

CHAIRMAN: Yes, I can recall him saying that his computercrashed and he lost a lot of things. But I think it isfair for you to assume, Mr Grace, that ASADA don't haveany - - -

MR GRACE: I'm not suggesting ASADA has got them,

CHAIRMAN:

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MR GRACE: Look at the next page, I ask with respect.Mr Walker says, "You can't find the email. No, I've gotall of them. But you can find the attachments." Alavisays, "Yes, so this was all in the box in my storagecontainer. Okay, so you've got one here for the Hexarelinwhich confirms it is Hexarelin and so forth ...(reads)...for the first lot which actually, you know, did them adisservice because I wasn't happy giving anything out."

and you will see that at 224, I think it is, inAS-3, which has "GL Biochem" on it.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Grace, if you look at page 52 and Mr Walkerrefers to "Certificate of analysis document CB", is thatthe certificate that we are talking about?

MR GRACE: That's the bodgie one, yes. So Mr Walker saysthat's for Thymosin, it confirms it's Thymosin Beta-4.Then Mr Walker is just leading and says, "From yourperspective Cedric Anthony obtained the peptides youreceived on 18 February? Yes. 2012 from the very sameplace that he obtained and procured the other peptidesthat you received and had compounded on behalf? That'sright." Well, how could he know? How could he possiblyknow?

CHAIRMAN: It confirms that the certificate is coming fromAlavi.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: How Alavi got it is another matter and obviously

something you would want to ask him about.MR GRACE: Yes. Then down the page, line 41, Mr Walker says,

"So from your mind then is it fair to say you are

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definitely sure now that Thymosin Beta-4 was provided toStephen Dank?"

Then Alavi says contrary to that on the nextpage, 53, "In the first batch? In the first batch, that'sright. If you accept the - seems that way." Alavi says,"I mean, it really does seem that way because I don't knowwhy on earth Cedric would use a different supplier.I would assume he would use the same supplier as ShaneCharter."

CHAIRMAN: Cedric is Anthony?MR GRACE: Yes, Cedric Anthony. Then we go down that page.

Then Alavi says at line 15, "If he has used the samesupplier with this GL Biochem, then most definitely it wasThymosin Beta-4, just to tidy that up. Yes. From yourperspective the 18 February 2012 batch, your understandingcame from the suppliers of the previous batch. Yes."

We say how could he know that? "Yes. CedricAnthony has provided you certificates for the samplesobtained on 18 February? Yes." Mr Walker asks on 54,line 3, "And the correlation that or the inference you candraw is that - yes - if it's the same supplier, yes, ithas to be the same commodity ...(reads)... that's theconclusion I'm coming to."

So what's happening is they are trying to usethat 18 February certificate to confirm the previous batchin December was Thymosin Beta-4.

CHAIRMAN: On the basis that they correlated.MR GRACE: Yes, that's the inference. Then Alavi says,

"I think there's enough evidence now to suggest fromthe text messages it's all talking about Thymosin Beta-4.

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So pretty unlikely for it to be Alpha, Alpha-1 typemodulin, but I'm probably just being a little bit crazy."

We don't know what he means by that, but we justsay he's got no idea. Got absolutely no idea what he'stalking about.

We go to, on 26, which I have obviously justtaken you to in large part, but the point that I want tomake which is highlighted by 26(d), there is no evidencethat any order was ever paid for or shipped or placed. Wedon't know how this arrived, what the circumstances werebehind the arrival of these substances on 18 February, whocaused them to be delivered, who paid for them, where theycame from. The subsequent certificates of analysis don'thave any details on them that would identify what theirsource is. They could be anything from anywhere; no oneknows.

If you go to item 27 and you go to page 57 ofthat 14 April interview, you will see - and I have takenyou to these texts already about letting Vania knowbecause Alavi is overseas. Top of page 57, "She shouldhave it ready for you in a couple of days." That'sMr Walker quoting the text. Mr Walker then quotes, "Alsosend me the info brief from Qatar when you get a chance."And then Mr Dank sends a later text message saying, "I'llring Vania in the morning to get timeframes."

CHAIRMAN: Is this 57 of the - it's the later interview.MR GRACE: The 14 April interview.CHAIRMAN: I will just get that. I was on the earlier one.

Okay.MR GRACE: Line 16, Dank says, "I know she will have 15 vials

to do. It will take some time." Alavi says, "This is

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10 May, okay." Walker says, "10 May, yes. And then Isuppose from your perspective that explains how you hadpossession of Thymosin at that period of time? Yes.Because you received that supply on 18 February."

So it hasn't been compounded. It's going to taketwo weeks to do 15 vials, according to Alavi. Line 30,"Because you received that supply on 18 February from" -Walker says "Cedric?" Alavi, "Cedric, yes." Walker says,"So what we can take from that is that references toThymosin in those exchanges is Thymosin Beta-4?" Answer,"Yes, correct."

The whole context of that part of the discussionwith Alavi and Walker is that this Thymosin Beta-4 fromthe February delivery was destined, in conjunction perhapswith AOD, for Qatar, for the tests to be conducted inQatar that Mr Dank was talking about with Mr Fricker.

Then item 28, we know from the first interview atpage 179 - this could be the second interview. It is partof tab 2. I will take you to 178 first. Do you have thatpage, 178?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: You will see halfway down he's talking about - - -CHAIRMAN: Dr HGH.MR GRACE: Yes, that's Dr Taylor. He calls himself "Dr HGH" on

his numberplate.CHAIRMAN: Alavi is obviously not impressed with him.MR GRACE: Yes, for some reason.

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says, "So you can see here that's 99 per cent. I mightactually try and find that other because I want that othertest." Mr Walker says, "Yes, I'd like to see that."Alavi says, "I gave it to the ACC. They were veryinterested in that." We don't know what he gave the ACC.

Then he's talking about the GHRP6 and obviouslyanalyses and graphs and he's talking about one spike,"That's all you want to see, nice and clean." Youremember Dr Vine's evidence yesterday about that. It justindicates Alavi doesn't know what he's talking about.

But at line 15 Alavi says on 179, "Nice andclean, no fragments and then the purity is 99.88 per cent,you know, this is what you want." So it's not greatquality, and this is from Cedric from 13 March.

"That would have been Cedric's batch and as Shanewent to China in late 2011 to visit a few people inmanufacturing plants ...(reads)... this may be the batchthat Steve Dank got from Essendon, so I wanted to test itto see what it was."

Well, what batches did he get from Cedric? Howmany batches? He's talking about multiple. We only knowabout the 18 February one, possibly from Cedric. TheDecember one was not from Cedric; it was from Charter,according to Alavi.

Then line 32 Alavi says, "The molecular weight isthe molecular weight of Thymomodulin, so Thymosin Alpha-1not Beta-4. They've got a different weight. So thiscould have been what they would use but I can't be sure."

So what he may be referring to there is a 2013

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test; we don't know. Walker says, "So you're saying thatyou didn't get - let's assume Shane Charter brought it inand gave it to compound ...(reads)... so we probably didbecause we would have taken them all together and testedthem."

Then page 180, "Would Bio21 still have madeavailable that sort of documentation? I think so. I cango there and check it out. We're due to go there nextweek. Try to find it."

Then line 11, Alavi says, "Yes, this was in July2012. So it's not the same batch. It's not the samebatch, but it's a batch that we got from Cedric. So thiswould have come in around June or so because they wouldhave tested it a month later. But the Essendon thing hadalready happened. That's right, correct. Yes, so it'sunlikely that this is the batch."

Mr Walker says, "Now, if I were to make enquiriesof Bio21 and I want them to check the stuff that you'vehad analysed, is it best to search under Como CompoundingPharmacy or you as an entity? Do you have a membershipnumber?" Then there's discussion about that.

So what he's saying, we say, and we would need totest this, is what he took to Bio21 was not what hecompounded purportedly for Essendon. He just doesn'tknow.

Item 29, this is a very important issue, theclear vials. If we go to the 11 December 2013 interviewbehind tab 3.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, which page, Mr Grace?MR GRACE: Page 10. This is an issue that you will note when

you come to peruse the players' interviews. The

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investigators were very careful to ask each player, inrelation to any substances they were injected with,whether they observed where Dank had obtained thatsubstance, what sort of bottle was it. They were asked todescribe the size of it, the colour of it, whether it hada particular top, whether it had a colour on the top,whether it was clear, whether it was coloured.

It is clear from the Alavi interviews that whathe supplied Dank purportedly in the two eskies that hesays he delivered in mid-January, I think it was18 January 2012, were two eskies, one with Hexarelin inclear vials and one with Thymosin Beta-4, he says, inclear vials and not labelled, however, except maybe on theoutside of the esky, but not on the bottles themselves.

There's also evidence that Alavi has given to theinvestigators that he purchased a large quantity of clearvials. But he never used them after that instance, hesays, because Dank told him that the sunlight fried thesubstances and they were useless. So he then resortedafter January to only using amber vials and he had astorage or stored in his pharmacy a large number of clearvials still at the time of the investigation.

So at the top of page 10 you will see,interesting enough, this is third line, "Those vials areclear, so there's a point of difference there. So youcould potentially ask the players whether they rememberseeing a clear vial or" - and Mr Walters says, "And theydo, and the players remember."

You will recall that the players were interviewedin 2013, so this interview with Alavi is occurring afterall the players were interviewed. So I go back to line 7,

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"And they do, and the players remember." Alavi says,"Really? Really?" Mr Walker says, "Brown vials and clearvials ...(reads)... 10 ml vials too, not the 5 ml."

This is a really significant issue, 10 ml. "Yes,because I had a look in the lab and I've still got lots ofthem there. Yes. I bought a lot to put peptides into butI never could because obviously they're transparent."Mr Walker, "They are 10 mls or 5 mls?" Alavi, "I'm prettysure they were 10 ml, yes. They were like a little bitlonger than the usual so players will remember that.That's very interesting."

Mr Sheens, "Would you be confident in saying thatclear vials, that was the only instance where you - thatwas the only time, yes. What, made them in clear vials?The only time I made them for the first time and thenrealised they were photo sensitive and then we didn't makethem in the clear vials ever again." Mr Walker says,"That's a good point from that." Over the page, "Yes."

Mr Walker, "So both the Hexarelin and ThymosinBeta-4 were in clear vials? Clear vials, correct...(reads)... they don't have a cap, they don't have aseal. So they've just got the rubber stopper at the top?Yes."

Then at the bottom of the page you will see, "Soyou have given Stephen a little esky full of all the 20vials and so forth? Yes, yes." On page 12, "Was thatThymosin Beta-4 as well as Hexarelin?" Alavi, "It was.There was definitely Hexarelin in there ...(reads)... isthere any difference in the compounding methods betweenthe two Thymosins?" Answer, "No." We say how would heknow?

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If you look at item 29 on my chart you will seethere is a little bit of a typo. 29(a)(i) you will see"Therefore 26 or 334 vials". It should be "34". If youjust amend that 334 to read 34. So it should read"Therefore 26 or 34 vials". Why I say 34 is because, ifyou look at the invoice, you will see a reference to 26vials to Essendon and then eight vials to Como. He givesan explanation for that which is a bit vague. But,regardless, if there's 26 vials and they're 10 ml vials,that means at 2 milligrams per millilitre what's requiredis 540 milligrams or, if it is 34 vials, 680 milligrams ofpowder. Obviously if the source is 0.25 of a gram,there's less than half the available source material tomake that quantity.

On 14 April he's asked questions about that attab 4, at page 22. "So it's highly likely if we received250 milligrams of Thymosin and we produced 26 vials at 5ml sizes, there's really no other way for us to have madeit other than 2 mg per ml."

Well, he's already said it was 10 ml. But evenon that calculation, 26 vials at 2 mg per ml would require260 grams. He only had 250 grams. But the point toemphasise is he says it has to be 2 mg per millilitre.

If you go to the previous page, he's talkingabout a little bit of wastage here at the top of the pagein order to justify it, but he's forgotten that he's sentsome to Eagle for analysis. So how much was that that wassent to Eagle? Eagle was interviewed about this and theysaid they discard what's not analysed, so they threw itout.

Then down the page on 21, talking about the

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invoice, at line 29 he says, "The concentrationson" - talking about on the invoice - "is 3 grams permillilitre. 3 milligrams per millilitre. Yep. 3milligrams per millilitre. Yep. Which would not leaveenough to make up the 26." So he realises that it wasimpossible to make up what was specified on the invoicefrom 0.25 of a gram.

CHAIRMAN: So then he says it must have been 2.MR GRACE: It must have been 2. Then he changes from 10 ml

vials to 5 ml in order to justify how he got to 26 vialsof Thymosin. But even that can't add up. ASADA of courserely upon there being a typographical mistake on theconsent forms signed by the players as saying3,000 milligrams when it should have been micrograms. SoASADA is saying in its case it's 3, not 2. And 3, even ifit was 5 ml vials, 3 times 5 times 26, 0.25 of a gram justdoesn't allow it. It's impossible. It comes to 390 orsomething.

Of course, they point to the concentrations shownon the video that we saw the other day which specifies aconcentration of 3, not 2. So if it's 3 it's impossiblefor there to be 26 vials, even in a 5 ml vial, from aquarter of a gram.

I make the note in (iv) under 29 that if he didreceive one gram of Thymosin Alpha as Charter says from RDPeptides, then that would be enough, if he was producingAlpha.

Then if we go to the interview of 11 December2013 which is behind tab 3, at page 23 he's talking thereabout, "Still another 100 vials sitting there. I can'treally use them for anything ...(reads)... I didn't have

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the colour codes from then on? Yes, from then on,exactly."

You may recall that in that video that Mr Holmesrelies upon, the Thymosin Beta-4 had an orange top on it.No player identifies any bottle with an orange top.

The next item I want to refer to is item 31, thepeptide manual. You may recall that I objected to it atthe time. You may recall the peptide manual, members ofthe panel. That appears at page 430 of AS-3. I can'trecall what Mr Holmes said about this, but I understandthat this was the bible invented by Mr Alavi, based oninformation apparently that Mr Dank had taught Alavi aboutpeptides. I'm going to hand up to you three - I want tojust explain to you what's been done here for the purposesof comparison.

Perhaps in AS-3 could you turn to page 451. Inthe bundle that I have just handed to you, you will see areplication exactly - this is a photocopy - of pages 451,452 and 453, that's the first three pages.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: The next page is headed "Peptide manual". Do you

have that?CHAIRMAN: Which? In the bundle that you have given us?MR GRACE: Yes. You will see a typed page headed "Peptide

manual". Sorry, there is a blank page. That should bediscarded.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: "Peptide manual". This is a document that we have

created. It is examples of web page references and youcould search those sites. If we go next to the medicaldictionary, which is the first item, if you just go

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further into that bundle, discard the next blank page, youwill see a page titled "Thymosin. Definition of Thymosinby medical dictionary".

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: You will see on that page the third entry "Thymosin"

says, "A hormone secreted by the thymus that stimulatesthe development of T-cells." You will see the secondsentence on page 451, "Thymosin is a hormone secreted bythe thymus that stimulates the development of T-cells."Then if we go to the next document numbered 2, this is aWayback entry for 29 June 2011. You will see on theleft-hand column of that page 2, "Thymosin is anactin-binding protein in cells." Do you see thatsentence?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: If you go back to page 451, the first entry,

"Thymosin is an actin-binding protein in cells."MR HOLMES: There is an extra "a", so a word has been inserted.MR GRACE: Yes. Mr Alavi has inserted the word "a" as a typo,

obviously. Then if you read underneath on that page 2 theparagraph commencing, "The predominant form of Thymosin,Thymosin Beta-4, is a member of a highly conserved familyof actin monomer sequestering proteins".

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: Look as the page 451, second paragraph. What you

see on the rest of that document and what is replicatedall the way through, 451, 452 on to 453,

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CHAIRMAN: Mr Grace, what do you want to do with this?MR GRACE: I seek to tender it.CHAIRMAN: Probably bearing in mind its relationship to the

manual, which is already part of the evidence, it probablyshould be received generally, I think. Obviously you areseeking to use it for this particular purpose, but if hisevidence was being considered, it would be relevant tothat evidence.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: So we will make it PG-23, which is headed "Peptide

manual".#EXHIBIT PG-23 - Bundle of pages headed "Peptide manual".MR GRACE: I just make a note that you will see various blog

sites, I think they call them, and chat forums that arecontained. We have photocopied some of these. You willbe interested to note that TB4 can accelerate hair growth,

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according to the chat forums.

say ought to be the subject of closescrutiny and cross-examination.

Then of course the timing of all of this and hisanswers to questions that I have already taken you toabout he thought they were all the same thing; doesn'tknow whether it's Thymomodulin. I have given you somepage references to the 26 November 2013 interview, whichhe also repeats somewhat on 14 April where he says hethought all the Thymosins were the same. Now, of coursethe manual is prepared in August 2012.

MR HOLMES: Sorry, July.MR GRACE: July 2012. On 26 November 2013 at page 72, line 14,

"A lot of us at the pharmacy thought all the Thymosinswere the same." Then on 14 April 2014, at page 19, "Hedidn't know what Thymosin was" - this is at line 45 - "atthat stage."

The next item is 32, scripts from Bates for AOD.Instead of the word "at" it should be "and", so I ask thatthat be changed. We will give you an amended document.

CHAIRMAN: That's okay.MR GRACE: The point we make about this, Bates was the doctor

at Melbourne Football Club. Dank in - I think it wasafter the season ended in 2012 - - -

CHAIRMAN: We have a technical difficulty so we will take ashort break.(Short adjournment.)

CHAIRMAN: Mr Grace, we were on Dr Bates.MR GRACE: Dr Bates. Dr Bates, I add as an editorial, didn't

know what he was getting himself in for, unfortunately.

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CHAIRMAN: Now he's doctor at Melbourne.MR GRACE: Melbourne Football Club. It all starts in March

2012. At page 373 of AS-4.2, text messages between Dankand Bates start.

CHAIRMAN: What page?MR GRACE: 373, text number 1. Dank contacts Bates. You will

see message 1, "I was interested in discussion on stemcell therapy. I do have a cell biology background. MyPhD is in pharmacology." Well, that's a lie. "Are youavailable for a quick phone hook-up tomorrow?"

There's nothing much, it seems, other than thesetext messages that I can rely upon for the background, butwe go to item 24 on page 374. Bates to Dank, "Spoke toJohn, he seems happy to be guided by us. I think I wouldstart with PRP and AOD. I would like to see its effectson MSCs a little bit more in the lab or more of ametabolic starter."

Then you will see Dank complaining to Bates aboutEssendon, by inference, we assume, on 18 August.

CHAIRMAN: Is that 31?MR GRACE: 31, "Shock result reflects a shit organisation.

They stopped listening to me properly eight weeks ago andgot what they deserved ...(reads)... won't be back nextyear. So we all have to land in the right placetogether." That text is repeated at 32.

Then you will see on 19 August, 38, Dank toBates, wants his thoughts on a couple of things, "Very bigin terms of science recovery," and so on. Then you willsee 56, 13 August, Dank to Bates, "We'll do anotherAOD/PRP combination injection on John's shoulder or atleast an AOD standalone. He has maintained AOD every

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second day" - I don't know what the next word means."Subsequent" perhaps. Then at 80 - - -

CHAIRMAN: Page 80?MR HOLMES: No, sorry, 78. Message 77, sorry, Bates to Dank,

"What was the name of the neuro thingy?" This is on4 September. Dank replies, "Cerebrolysin. I'll email youliterature on this. It had our bloods really recoveringand powering." You haven't heard evidence about this, butthis is not a prohibited substance, but there wereinjections of Essendon players on that.

79, Dank to Bates, "Give me five minutes." Batesto Dank, "I'm happy with literature on Thymomodulin."Dank to Bates, "Got that okay?" Bates to Dank, "Crosswires. I have been doing a literature search onThymomodulin and I like it. I'm looking forward to theCerebrolysin." Dank to Bates, "I mean you've already gotThymomodulin literature." He's talking about Cerebrolysinfor a post-concussion. If you're interested I will tellyou all about that, Cerebrolysin, but it's an atrociousstory.

Alavi is saying atpage 316 of his 28 November interview, tab 2 I think, atline 6. Do you have that?

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: Alavi says, "It helps with these kinds of side

effects. Text 247 he is saying, 'I want to get Melbourneorganised.' So he's obviously now moved to Melbournefootball team. Yeah. And he wants to get them on to somestuff and then he started to present me with that letteragain to sign. Now what was that letter in relation to?"

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CHAIRMAN: "He" meaning Dank.MR GRACE: Meaning Dank, yes. "That was in relation to

Thymomodulin." So the same type of letter perhaps that hesigned in relation to Essendon he was being asked to signin relation to Melbourne.

93 in the text messages, Mr Clelland says."The Crown Prince of Qatar wants to trial my services fora month for his camels and horses. Prepared to spend alot of money to get his racing animals prepared andrecovered." Just absolute puffery. Bates says, "Go thecamels." Then at 100 Bates asking Dank on 6 September,"Have you got any Thymomodulin I can get access to?" Danksays, "Of course, mate. Ring me on your break."

Then of course the point about the questioning atpage 316 in the interview I have just referred you to isthat Alavi is talking about Thymomodulin. He's talkingabout that as a substance. He's the expert who's producedby this stage, by the time of his dealings with Dank aboutMelbourne, he would know because he's produced the peptidemanual, presumably, he would know that Thymomodulin is notThymosin Beta-4.

MR HOLMES: I think you will find that in AS-3 at page 518, on22 November 2012 Dank sends to Alavi what I might call thebackdated letter asking, "Can you put this on letterheadand update the date to current and address it to themedical staff of the Melbourne Football Club." So that'swhen he's talking about - - -

CHAIRMAN: In that passage that Mr Grace has just referred to.MR HOLMES: Yes.MR GRACE: If you want to see it, I can produce Bates's

interview which is in tranche 4. But I will just inform

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Mr Holmes that at page 35 Mr Bates is interviewed on19 April 2013. That's after - - -

CHAIRMAN: Is Bates's interview in the material we have got,Mr Holmes?

MR GRACE: No, it's not. I don't want to overburden you withthis. I don't think there's any dispute about what Batessays.

MR HOLMES: I haven't read it. I can't tell you whetherthere's a dispute or not.

MR GRACE: Bates talks about Dank talking to him a lot, talkingto him about a lot of stuff, "talked to me aboutCerebrolysin, talked to me about Thymomodulin, you know,talked to me more about the AOD stuff," and he goes on totalk about Thymomodulin and some other stuff calledAminosyn.

He was asked, "Were you told how to write ascript?" He's being interviewed by, amongst others,Dr Harcourt from the AFL and also Mr Nolan, the ASADAinvestigator. "I just knew it was 600 micrograms." "Haveyou ever been in possession of Thymomodulin?" "I've gotsome samples I chucked out. I went down to meet Nima. Hegave me some Cerebrolysin and he gave me someThymomodulin." "Now the Thymomodulin, was thatinjectable?" "Yes." And questions along those lines, sohe was being thrown in at the deep end, unfortunately forhim.

CHAIRMAN: Yes. Well, Melbourne may be a bit fortunate itdidn't go any further.

MR GRACE: He was asked by Dr Harcourt at page 102 of hisinterview, "Did he talk to you about Essendon afterSeptember?" "Yes, he must have." "What sort of things

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did he say?" "He told me that you can write these onesdown. They have been using AOD, Cerebrolysin,Thymomodulin and Aminosyn and a fair bit of hyperbaric."That's what Dank told Bates.

CHAIRMAN: That's what Bates said Dank told him.MR GRACE: Yes, after September 2012. David Misson, I don't

know if you know of a David Misson - - -MR HOLMES: This perhaps should be tendered because I'm not

sure - there's so many references going to it, I think itshould be tendered.

CHAIRMAN: That's Bates's interview.MR HOLMES: Bates's interview, yes, on the voir dire. I think

it is only on the voir dire because at this stage theseare questions he wanted to ask, but if there is not anapparent relevance to - - -

CHAIRMAN: It hasn't got any other relevance, you don't think?MR GRACE: Well, it may have.MR HOLMES: He can reserve his position.CHAIRMAN: You reserve your position on it, Mr Grace.MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: Give it some thought. It can be picked up at any

stage.MR GRACE: There is a fitness person - - -CHAIRMAN: That's Misson.MR GRACE: David Misson. He's associated at the time with

- - -CHAIRMAN: He's been with a number of clubs.MR GRACE: He was with St Kilda. I think he was at Melbourne

at the time under Bates. He spoke to Dank and he wasinterviewed on 23 April 2013 by Mr Nolan.

MR HOLMES: So this is Misson's interview now.

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MR GRACE: Yes, M-I-S-S-O-N. He spoke to Dank about "some ofthe issues we had with the playing group". This is atpage 15. Dank was looking around for a job and I think hewent to Melbourne to try and get a job. Misson says, "Therole we were offering was a rehab coach's role but alsosports science. He mentioned a couple of products.Tribulus was one and Thymomodulin and that was the one tohelp with the viral illnesses." For what it's worth,that's what Misson says.

The last item on the list is 33. In the 14 Aprilinterview at page 34 he's asked questions about the12 January Charter email of the TB500 Thymosin Beta-4.You may recall that email about how to compound it.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: At the top of page 34 he's asked, "Do you know why

he sent you that document at all?" Alavi says, "I've gotno idea. I saw that on the front page of the newspaperlast year with my email address on it. I never replied tothat email. I remember chatting with my lawyers aboutthat. I've got, you know, a couple of thousand unreademails in my inbox, so something like that I wouldn't evenopen."

So the suggested reliance upon the contents ofthat email as to how to compound any of the product thathe was said to have received in late December 2011 asgiving some indication that what he was compounding wasThymosin Beta-4, that inference or that assertioncertainly has no foundation from Mr Alavi's evidence.

CHAIRMAN: If he's telling the truth.MR GRACE: If he's telling the truth. But this was a question

that we would have liked to have asked him, amongst all

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the others.So that completes the picture in relation to

Alavi. I now want to move on to other persons. BeforeI do so, could I hand up to you and seek to tender thenotices that were served on Bio21.

CHAIRMAN: We haven't already got these?MR GRACE: We handed up a marked version.CHAIRMAN: This is the one we got before, which is PG-22.MR GRACE: Yes. If we could have the marked version returned.CHAIRMAN: Yes. It is PG-22.MR GRACE: Could I also hand up the document that we will seek

to rely upon now in relation to Mr Sedrak and others as tothe admissibility of their material.

CHAIRMAN: We will make this also part of PG-10, voir dire,which the other one is, Mr Grace.

MR GRACE: Also, could I tender the certificate of theCounty Court of Victoria certifying that on 25 August 2011Mr Jarrod Butler was found not guilty of seven counts ofimportation, one count of possession of varioussubstances.

CHAIRMAN: We have the reason for sentence in as PG-19, voirdire, Judge Smallwood. This is the result of the trial atwhich Mr Charter gave evidence. So we will make thatPG-24, voir dire.

#EXHIBIT PG-24 - (Voir dire) County Court of Victoriacertificate.

MR GRACE: If I could now turn to Mr Sedrak. Mr Sedrak is apharmacist in New South Wales.

MR HOLMES: Just that last one, I'm just not sure what thatestablishes.

CHAIRMAN: He's using it at this stage in relation to he would

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like to, in terms of his cross-examination ofCharter - - -

MR HOLMES: Ask him why the jury found him not guilty?CHAIRMAN: It's on the basis that Mr Charter - it's a bit

tenuous, Mr Holmes, I might say. But Mr Charter, it wouldappear, was a very important witness and he had undertakenwhen he was sentenced to give evidence in this trial.

MR HOLMES: But you use the words "very important". He hadgiven an undertaking to give evidence. But what role heplayed in the trial, this doesn't tell us whatsoever.

CHAIRMAN: No.MR HOLMES: The conduct of the trial.CHAIRMAN: You may have some comments on its weight.MR HOLMES: I don't want to fill up my time arguing about

irrelevances, that's all. I would rather object at thisstage.

CHAIRMAN: We will allow the tender, but I understand the pointyou are making.

MR GRACE: I accept. But this would be an example of the typeof document we would seek to show Mr Charter, forinstance, and say, "You agree you gave evidence at thistrial and you agree that he was acquitted and you agreethat the evidence you gave was that Mr Butler inveigledyou into this importation," et cetera.

MR HOLMES: So what?CHAIRMAN: Then he would say the jury was wrong.MR GRACE: He might.CHAIRMAN: In finding him not guilty.MR GRACE: The fact is they didn't believe him.MR HOLMES: Sorry, the fact that they didn't believe him - - -CHAIRMAN: Let's not waste time on it.

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MR HOLMES: I press my objection.CHAIRMAN: In the scheme of things it's not - - -MR GRACE: It's minor.CHAIRMAN: It's minor. Where is Sedrak's interviews?MR GRACE: AS-5.CHAIRMAN: Which one is it, 1 or 2? Do you know which volume

it is, Mr Grace?MR GRACE: 5.1.CHAIRMAN: And which tab?MR GRACE: He was interviewed on three occasions. The first is

at tab 13.CHAIRMAN: That's in 5.2.MR GRACE: In my folder it is tabs 13, 14 and 15. I think they

are referred to as 1, 2 and 3 in our document.CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have those now.MR GRACE: If I could take you to the first interview, page 10.CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes had taken us to parts of this interview.MR GRACE: Could I just give you the context. Mr Sedrak, you

will see on page - - -CHAIRMAN: He's the pharmacist from Sydney.MR GRACE: Yes. Belgrave Pharmacy in Belgrave Street, Kogarah,

in New South Wales. He's interviewed for the first timeon 20 March 2013 and he talks about the fact that he's apharmacist. He finished his degree in 1977 in Egypt. Heobtained a bachelor of pharmacy. He had a pharmacy inMelbourne and then in New South Wales. He has acompounding pharmacy in Belgrave Street called theBelgrave Compounding Pharmacy.

He was asked a number of questions in thoseinitial pages about GHRP6 and CJC, amongst other things.At page 9 he talks about, at the top of page 9, about CJC

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and he talks about a man, you will see at line 34,a customer. At the top of

page 10 he talks about he used to give him CJ and RP6 andhe was dealing with some other pharmacies. He wassupplying him with some other substances.

You will see at line 16, "When it came to myknowledge that he was dealing with another two pharmacies,one in the city, one around Richmond ...(reads)...

Yes. So he saidThis is Steve Dank? Yes."

Sedrak says then, "Yes, do you know what happenedto him? If you want to ask me ...(reads)... sometimesmaybe I'll ask you for a couple of AOD."

Then you will see later down the page, "He camehere August 2011." At the top of page 12, "During 2011I don't know who is Stephen Dank, so he just came in withEd Spanje. A fellow named Ed van Spanje? Yes, Spanje."

Then he talks about - at the bottom of the pageyou will see there is a reference to AOD.

Then we go to the second interview, page 34.CHAIRMAN: Tab 14.MR GRACE: Yes. Top of page 34, "How do you know Stephen Dank?

a month Steve Dankcame in with someone called Ed. I can't remember hissurname." Then there's reference to van Spanje.

If I can go back to the first interview, page 40.CHAIRMAN: I think Mr Holmes took us to page 40.MR HOLMES: Yes. Can I just say, members of the Tribunal, this

case has been going since early December. We have beenseeking directions about calling of witnesses anddocuments, and we have been acting on the correspondence

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and assurances that come from the players. They gave us alist of the witnesses they want to cross-examine. We haveread all this, and the list is exhibit AS-22. Theyhaven't asked for Mr Sedrak to be here forcross-examination.

MR GRACE: Yes, I did ask for Sedrak. It's on the transcript.MR HOLMES: There's a letter from Mr Hargreaves listing the

people they wanted to cross-examine, and it is in AS-22under the first tab. So they didn't want to cross-examinehim last year. We didn't make any arrangements to callhim. We put his material in. Now we are told, "You can'trely on this because we now want to cross-examine him."Hang on, we have been going for a couple of months and wehaven't had the opportunity to make enquiries about if hecould come down from Sydney because they didn't want himfor cross-examination. If you have a look under tab - - -

CHAIRMAN: We don't want to be going through this exercise ifthis man's available for cross-examination.

MR HOLMES: Yes. So we weren't given notice. So we object tothis being - - -

CHAIRMAN: What you are saying is that no enquiries have beenmade with Mr Sedrak about his availability forcross-examination, Mr Holmes, is that it?

MR HOLMES: Yes. We relied on Mr Hargreaves's letter.CHAIRMAN: Mr Grace - - -MR GRACE: I might be wrong, but I have a recollection of

asking for Sedrak.CHAIRMAN: Whether that's true or not, the primary question

is: is this gentleman available for cross-examination? Itwouldn't necessarily involve us bringing him down fromSydney because we could do it by videolink.

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MR HOLMES: We could make some telephone calls tomorrow.CHAIRMAN: Could we make some enquiries about this tomorrow,

Mr Holmes?MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: I think for the moment, Mr Grace, we defer the

consideration of these matters with respect to Sedrakbecause it may well turn out that Sedrak's available andyou can cross-examine him.

MR GRACE: All right. Let's then move to Mr Earl.CHAIRMAN: We will just defer the consideration of the

situation with respect to Mr Sedrak pending enquiries asto his availability for cross-examination.

MR GRACE: The next person is Mr Earl.CHAIRMAN: You have signalled Earl and we have been told that

Earl won't - it's a statement, I think, isn't it, ratherthan an interview?

MR HOLMES: AS-4.CHAIRMAN: Thanks, Mr Holmes.MR GRACE: Mr Earl was interviewed six times by ASADA.CHAIRMAN: This is the rugby league guy.MR GRACE: Yes. None of the transcripts of those interviews

are before you. All you have is this statement. We wouldseek to cross-examine him on the discrepancies between hisinterviews and statement, and seek clarification aroundissues concerning the statements he's made in his swornstatement.

CHAIRMAN: Just so that I understand, he made this statement,which was a sworn statement and which ASADA rely upon, andthere were interviews which were transcribed which youhave which haven't been provided to us on the basis thatthey are not seeking to rely upon them; is that right?

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MR HOLMES: Not necessarily. When I opened I pointed to thefirst paragraph of Mr Earl's statement where he gave theassurance similar to that of Mr Charter.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOLMES: But when it came to the crunch, and I read the

email exchange where he bypassed his solicitor and emailedmy instructing solicitor and said, "I've had enough of it.I'm here in Thailand running a business with a new life."I'm elaborating now. "I'm not going to come and helpASADA."

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOLMES: Then to enable the players to appreciate what that

represents we gave them all of his interviews.CHAIRMAN: No, that's fine. I'm not criticising you for not

giving them to us. I just wanted to understand clearlywhere we stood in terms of the record, that's all.

MR HOLMES: You would need to see his other transcripts to forma view of Mr Earl.

CHAIRMAN: Well, we may need to get those on this voir direthen because Mr Grace is saying that he would like tocross-examine Mr Earl in relation to this statement,taking account of what Mr Earl has said in interviews.

MR GRACE: Yes.MR HOLMES: Can I just briefly say a number of interviews shown

text messages disclaiming any knowledge or denying anyinferences, and then all of a sudden he produces thisstatement. So that does affect his credibility and youwould need that. But we have narrowed the parts of thepassages we rely upon to be around the text messages whicharen't objected to or which are in. So his significancein relation to other matters may not be as great as

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Mr Charter or Mr Alavi.CHAIRMAN: I understand that. But you are relying on at least

some of the things that he said in his statement.MR HOLMES: Yes, just to put a context on them.CHAIRMAN: Which you took us to I think for example at page 49,

paragraph 74.MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: And then paragraphs 81, 82, 83, 84, 85.MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: All right. Anyway, I think that, Mr Grace, we have

all the material that we need in relation to the issuesyou raise about cross-examination of Mr Earl we need toget on the voir dire the interviews. But that can be donetomorrow.

MR HOLMES: We can bring those along tomorrow.CHAIRMAN: Okay.MR HOLMES: We will tender those tomorrow morning.CHAIRMAN: Yes, they can be put in on the voir dire.MR GRACE: I think we can proceed now without you having

necessarily the exact interviews, if you are prepared todo that.

CHAIRMAN: You go ahead with your submissions, yes.MR GRACE: The first point that we make on that table we have

provided to you - - -CHAIRMAN: Do we have the table?MR GRACE: Yes, it's on the back of the Sedrak document.CHAIRMAN: Yes, thanks.MR GRACE: The first point is he was unsure about the type of

Thymosin used on him. He never says Thymosin Beta-4. Itwas put to him by ASADA, and he says, "I can't remembermuch about it." This is interview 3. 27 August 2013 was

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the interview. He's asked, "What did he tell you aboutThymosin Beta-4?" Answer, "I can't remember much aboutThymosin. I don't - I don't - I don't think he put it inthe same brackets as that." The brackets he was talkingabout was CJC 1295.

He says in 1(b), "CJC has a growth hormone aspectto it. Thymosin not in the same bracket." That was thepoint he was making. You will see that if you look at thecontext of the questions and answers on pages 8 and 9.

In the same interview at page 29 he was asked atline 35, "Shall we say, I suppose, just over a year whatwere you treated with by Stephen Dank or that wasorganised by Stephen Dank ...(reads)... Yeah, I mean,I can't - I can't 100 per cent say."

Then he says he was either given Alpha or Beta-4,and this is in the same interview at page 12. He's askedthis question by Ms Kerrison, line 26, "What aboutthe Thymosin?" He says, "Well, he said the same thing.I wish I had a bit better memory on whether we put that inthe same bracket ...(reads)... Couldn't find anything tothe contrary? No." And it goes on as to whether hisresearch was satisfactory and so on.

CHAIRMAN: This is research that Earl did himself.MR GRACE: Yes.MR HOLMES: This is the third interview after he had had two

previous opportunities to answer questions, so to speak.MR GRACE: I don't know whether ASADA is relying upon him as a

witness of truth or not.CHAIRMAN: I think maybe with respect to the particular

passages that Mr Holmes took us to.MR GRACE: Then we go to page 21 on the 27 August interview.

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He's asked about side effects. He said he had none. Line9, "When did you realise CJC, if at all, and ThymosinBeta-4 were prohibited substances?" Answer, "When it cameout in the media." "Yeah, so it's this year?" "Yeah,about February this year."

Then he says, "I had no reason to believeotherwise, especially with what I thought, although I dohave obviously clear ...(reads)... Did that ring any alarmbells for you?" "Well, no."

Item 2 on our list is the issue about whetherDank said he was giving the Essendon players Thymomodulin.Again at the interview on 27 August 2013 at page 50 he'sasked at line 4, "Did he tell you what he was giving theEssendon boys?" Answer, "Yeah, that - like that AOD-9604.And I don't know if he has ...(reads)... because he wouldhave told me about it." So these are the type of thingswe would seek to ask him.

Earlier in that same interview he distinguishesbetween Thymosin and Thymomodulin. I think I have alreadyreferred you to pages 12 and 13 in that regard. We wouldwant to ask him the circumstances of how he was told. Hesays I think in the interview somewhere that he was toldthis by telephone.

Item 3, doesn't know where Dank got it from. Atpage 10 in that same interview he was asked by Ms Kerrisonat line 6, "Do you know where he was obtaining theCJC-1295 and the Thymosin he treated you with?" Earl,"No, I don't. I mean ...(reads)... and there wasreference to that Belgrave pharmacy. That's right.I've never actually been there." Then Ms Kerrison says atline 32,

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Then at page 15 in the same interview he's asked,line 6, "Did it have any effect ultimately the treatmentwith the CJC and the Thymosin on your injuries?" Answer,"I don't believe so."

Then at AS-4, which is the text messages, page360, you will see text messages exchanged between Dank andEarl.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, there's a series of them.MR GRACE: There are only 12. But the first one is on

1 October 2012, after Dank left Essendon. "Hey, mate. IsActivegin on the ban list? No. Oh, sweet. Why's that?Just wondering you're still a fan of it off season," heasks him. This is all a series of texts. The first 10all on the same day.

Dank to Earl, 254 entry, "Yes, but this offseason you will use with Cerebrolysin and Thymomodulin."Earl to Dank, "Endurance?" Dank to Earl, "All will helpwith that." Earl to Dank, "Awesome. That's what I wantto focus on, just fit fast." Dank to Earl, "That is thecombination." And that's it.

So those are all the discussions we would havesought to ask Earl about. Of course insofar as - - -

CHAIRMAN: The section of it no doubt Mr Holmes wouldparticularly rely upon is under the heading "Dank andEssendon", which starts at page 12 of the statement.That's the part that he spent some time on taking usthrough.

MR GRACE: Yes. So he's talking there about Hexarelin in thefirst paragraphs. Then he gets on to, at 107, AOD,

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Thymomodulin.CHAIRMAN: This substance rears its head again.MR GRACE: Cerebrolysin.CHAIRMAN: Something to do with concussion, by the sound of

things.MR GRACE: It is meant to help with dementia. They were

injected with it in April.CHAIRMAN: What does it have to do with football?MR GRACE: We have no idea, all of us at the Bar table. But

the Essendon players were injected with it, not atEssendon but a place called HyperMED, which is adjacent tothe Como Compounding Pharmacy.

They attended there prior to and afterthe Anzac Day 2012 game. That was what we say was thecause for Dr Reid to go berserk in the notes that havebeen referred to by Mr Holmes in his opening.

CHAIRMAN: Anyway, sorry I distracted you.MR GRACE: But I just wanted to put that in context so you knew

where and when. Mr Holmes in opening says, "Well, you canfind support in the fact that Dank was injecting theEssendon players with Thymosin Beta-4 by the fact that hewas injecting Mr Earl with Thymosin Beta-4, or providingit to him." We say it's pretty crucial that we would haveMr Earl here for cross-examination in order to test theveracity of his sworn statement and compare inconsistentstatements he made in his interviews and that, insofar asMr Holmes seeks to rely upon that statement, we aredeprived of the opportunity to cross-examine him inrelation to these crucial issues.

CHAIRMAN: And you would want to cross-examine him about the

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conversations that he said he had with Dank about whatDank was doing at Essendon. That's hearsay from the pointof view of Mr Earl, but it would be evidence here and youwould want to cross-examine him about those conversations.

MR GRACE: Yes. He may have touched upon in the transcriptthat I have read to you about - - -

CHAIRMAN: We haven't got it.MR GRACE: I know you haven't got it, but I read out I think a

passage that refers to the injection in the shoulder ofsomeone.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GRACE: Mr Holmes relied upon that because there's a text

message between Dank and Robinson to the effect thatMr Holmes will seek to imply that it means that Dankinjected someone with Thymosin Beta-4 into his shoulder atsome stage prior to the injection program at Essendon, andthis was an example of how good it could be.

MR HOLMES: On 2 August there's no dispute he was being treatedby Dr Khan and there's no dispute - - -

CHAIRMAN: Khan's involved in this.MR HOLMES: And that's the same time as he sends the text

message.CHAIRMAN: There's a text message relating to the shoulder.MR GRACE: But this is referred to in the Earl interview.CHAIRMAN: Yes, I understand.MR GRACE: As something that Dank has told Earl. I'm not sure

whether the person being treated was Earl or - I'm notsure Mr Holmes says that or not.

MR HOLMES: I think it's pretty clear he was in there withDr Khan while Dr Khan was treating Mr Earl.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Grace, do you mind if we rise just a little

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early? I have to get to a Law Reform Commission meetingto talk about medicinal cannabis.

MR GRACE: Let us know the result.CHAIRMAN: If you don't mind, that would certainly help me. We

will resume at 10 o'clock in the morning.ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 23 JANUARY 2015

Documents

AFL ANTI-DOPING TRIBUNAL CHAIRMAN: MR DAVID …media.heraldsun.com.au/multimedia/2015/aug/project/pdfs/Day10.pdf · COUNSEL ASSISTING: MR JUSTIN HOOPER - ... 31.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal