28 -Overcoming Grief - Gary - Teleclass - Transcript

7/24/2019 28 -Overcoming Grief - Gary - Teleclass - Transcript

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Copyright 2010 Madanes-Peysha Publishing

Overcoming blame Gary

Teleclass Transcript

MP: Mark PeyshaCM: Cloe Madanes

MP: All right, welcome to the teleclass. Today, we will be continuing our Master Uniton Grief and as I said in my email to you guys, we didnt e!ect this to be a "ery !o!ularto!ic but the truth is #loe !ointed out to me the other day that no ones life is not touchedby grief or loss of some sort. $ast time we tal%ed about how the central dilemma of griefis %nowing how to honor the relationshi! with the !erson that has !assed on while stillshowing res!ect for the future as well.

In many traditional cultures, there are s!ecific !rocedures for doing this, rituals for theberea"ed !erson to undergo, a certain amount of time to !ass for instance but now we li"ein a modern society where we hear lots of ways !eo!le deal with grief and there are lotsof confusion and conflict on how to actually do that. &ow to sol"e that !roblem' (hatcan you do' (hich you should not be able to do' &ow long does it ta%e' &ow longdoes it not ha"e to ta%e'

)or instance, !eo!le often as%, how long is a normal or acce!table !eriod of time togrie"e for someone' (e would answer that that *uestion is based on the idea that timeheals but time doesnt always heal. +ome !eo!le dont reco"er from grief. I had agrandmother who was widowed at age -. (hen she was / and she was tal%ing to meabout it, it felt li%e it 0ust ha!!ened. And so the grief !rocess is really is series of decisi"edecisions both conscious and unconscious.

The last time we tal%ed about the fi"e stages of grief that were first described by1li2abeth 3ubler45oss in the 6789s when she was wor%ing with the dying. These ha"ebeen %ind of the standard "iew in the !hases of grief. I will reca! those *uic%ly. The first!hase of grief is denial, where you dont really register the loss and therefore you act li%eit didnt ha!!en or it isnt going to ha!!en. ow again, these !hases of grief are used to

understand many different situations from the !erson who understands if they are goingto die to the !erson who has 0ust lost someone and is grie"ing them and to the !erson whohas 0ust lost a situation and not necessarily a !erson.

+o I will discuss this in each case, but the reason for denial was that we all ha"e habitsand rituals and identities that are built around certain things in our li"es and when wehear that we are going to lose something or that we are going to lose someone, it ta%es ustime to truly register it. +o the decision here is to acce!t the fact that ; basically in terms

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of denial, there is all sorts dangers in life that we encounter on a regular day ; regular 4course of the day and we ha"e a denial function which %ind of hold those at bay.

+o, li%e dri"ing on the road is the most dangerous thing that we are li%ely to do in thecourse of our life and yet we go on the road e"eryday because healthy a !art of your

human organism is to 0ust say ; to disregard certain %ind of dangers that are normaldangers. (hen you first hear about a loss li%e this, denial is that %ind of s!ar%ing in other!art of you that says no, no, that is not going to ha!!en, right' That is not ha!!ening.The decision that ends this %ind of !hase of denial is when the !erson %ind of acce!ts thatthe loss has occurred or they really truly belie"e that it will be !laced that it is a seriousconsideration that you cant 0ust get out of it by ha"ing a different attitude.

The net !hase is anger. This is again a natural human res!onse when we ha"e a lost asource of significance or certainty. Anger wor%s to restore a sense of certainty so that wecan ta%e action and reco"er what has been lost. It is li%e res!onse thatwe use in danger.

In the case of loss, it is often used to try to reco"er what we may be losing, so often!eo!le res!ond with anger and with blame in these situations. This is the !lace where!eo!le "ery often get stuc%, es!ecially if there is a feeling of in0ustice about the loss.Peo!le are "ery stubborn in general about things li%e in0ustice and #loe was actually!ointing out that there is studies that show that mammals actually res!ond to the sense offairness and in0ustice as well so it is "ery, "ery dee!.

+o if someone loses something through an unfairness or an in0ustice, they often focus onblaming or assigning res!onsibility to other !eo!le and that becomes a !reoccu!yingfocus for a long, long time. This is es!ecially difficult when someone blames li%e asu!ernatural force, li%e for instance, God, for ta%ing the !erson away and creates ameaning where that is the in0ustice. ?asically, !eo!le often come to a halt in terms oftheir !rocessing the grief at that !oint because again when we belie"e that there isin0ustice, we dont belie"e in 0ust coo!erating with in0ustice, we belie"e in holding out forsomething better.

The decision that ends this !hase is one where you reali2e that blaming will not bring that!erson bac% in certain situations we cant !resume to %now how the world is su!!osed towor%. +o in other words, when Tony for instance wor%s with !eo!le who are #hristianand belie"e in God or anyone really who has a belief system that has been !ut into*uestion. @ou ha"e to 0ust thin%, well, you %now the larger way that the uni"erse wor%sis not in your control and so you cant !resume to %now what is the best thing that ha!!enin e"ery situation.

The net !hase is bargaining. ow in the case of someone who is about to die, they maycome u! with creati"e ways that they will not die, and again, this is an im!ortant sur"i"alinstinct. If someone tells you that you are going to die or going to be sic% then that is agood time to be creati"e and find e"erything that you can do. (hen it is a situation ofloss where you lost someone or a situation that we bargain from meanings, so we want to

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rescue the meaning of the loss, we want to gi"e it a meaning that restores the sense of!ur!ose and action. The decision that ends this !hase is when the !erson reali2es that thebargaining will not wor%. ?laming is a way of bargaining. There is a "ariety of waysthat you can try to create a meaning that you are dealing with the loss.

The net !hase is de!ression. This is different than what is ordinarily called de!ressionbecause it is a really s!ecific res!onse, a "ery s!ecific !ainful e"ent that occurs toe"eryone. This is where the !erson reali2es that they cant !re"ent the loss. enial didntwor%, anger and blaming didnt wor%, and bargaining didnt wor%. The catch here is thatin de!ression, !eo!le incorrectly conclude that nothing will wor%. +o they draw out aconclusion which is correct, which is that the !erson has died or the situation has changedbut they also draw an incorrect conclusion that there is absolutely nothing you can do tosto! it. This is "ery scary because !eo!le really go to learn hel!lessness at this !oint andtheir li"es can come to a total halt because they e*uate the eternal reality with theirability to choose things on the inside. The decision that ends this !hase is a s!iritualdecision where you see that you cant control the eternal circumstancesB the !erson

dying, yourself dying, the situation changing, whate"er it may be. The conce!t here isthat there is an acce!tance and a !eace that comes with that.

And so the fifth stage is acce!tance. These are the fi"e stages according to 3ubler45oss.ow, we dont actually li%e to sto! there. In traditional thera!y such as where 3ubler45oss was wor%ing, at the time when 3ubler45oss was wor%ing the goal of thera!y was toma%e !eo!le feel better, to be ha!!ier. +o !utting acce!tance as the final !hase wouldma%e sense then, es!ecially if the final stage of someone who is contem!lating their owndeath so feeling at !eace with your own death would seem to be a healthy !rocess and ahealthy conclusion.

?ut in strategic inter"ention true health ta%es you to another ste!. That is the s!iritualste! where the decision and the reali2ation is that e"en if you cant !re"ent the !hysicalloss, whether it is a death or another situation, or whate"er it is that is changing that youdidnt want to ha!!en, you can still control the meanings that you create. +o no matterwhat ha!!ened on the outside, you can still control what ha!!ens on the inside and thenin this !hase you reali2e that the !hysical loss doesnt mean that you dont ha"e the!ower to create meaning.

This is where all of us ha"e been "ery influenced by Ci%tor )ran%l who wrote theMansSearch for Meaning. &e basically said on the concentration cam! where none of theconcentration cam! "ictims had any abilities to choose anything in their eternalcircumstances, Ci%tor )ran%l was able to choose his choices basically and ma%e thatdecision. It was an etreme situation but in this !hase you reali2e that the !hysical lossdoesnt mean that you cant create meaning. In fact, you canD

#M: $et me clarify something there Mar% because there was a little confusion. Cictor)ran%l reali2ed that he could choose what he thought and he chose to study the situationand to write a boo% about it, which is still a best4seller in Psychology. +o that no matterwhat the situation you can still choose the meaning that you gi"e to it.

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MP: That is right.

#M: 1"en in the concentration cam!. +o he wrote a boo% and the a2is confiscated itand burned it and he wrote it again on toilet !a!er in the concentration cam!.

MP: And he really focused on his ability to choose e"en in that situation where he couldchoose so little what it seemed but actually he could choose e"erything because he couldchoose what his decisions were going to be.

#M: (hat his meanings were going to be.

MP: (hat his meanings are going to be.

#M: (hat he was going to decide in terms of meaning. That was the only decision hegot left but that is the most im!ortant.

MP: That is right. +o this is an ele"ated state where !eo!le reali2e that they can actuallyli"e !roacti"ely with lo"e and gratitude or whate"er their "alues maybe no matter whattheir !hysical circumstances and no matter what is to be lost on the !hysical le"el.

In the Maggie and the Gary inter"entions, we see that these fol%s who ha"e been struc% inone of the grief !hases. They ha"e been stuc% for many years and what %ind of liberatedthem to ta%e their li"es to the net le"el was their ability to !roacti"ely create a meaning.This meaning was not to try to force or change what really ha!!ened !hysically and itdoesnt try to deny or !ush things around of anger or of bargain or 0ust gi"e u!. Instead itwas wor%ing with the circumstances and they are bracing their ability to create meaning.

Tony hel!ed them answer four main *uestions that ha"e been dilemmas for them. )irstwas: (hat ha!!ened to cause the death and who was res!onsible' +o that is associatedwith the blaming and assigning res!onsibilities for the death. The second *uestion is:&ow can you ma%e sense of this situation' (hat meaning do you create' The third is:(hat would the deceased !erson want' And the fourth is: (hat can you do now to honorthe deceased and the li"ing who are still ali"e and yourself. These are four !laces where!eo!le get stuc% in this four *uestions. Tony hel!ed both Gary and Maggie to o"ercomethose and come u! with !roducti"e answers to those.

In the case of Gary 0ust to do a *uic% reca! of the inter"ention itself. Gary stood u! toanswer a %ind of tri"ia *uestion. &e was at the e"ent and Tony was tal%ing aboutsomething com!letely different. &e was tal%ing about grief. &e is as%ing some %ind of!layful *uestions that Tony as%ed the grou! in order to !oint out the "ariety of beliefsystems that !eo!le ha"e. Gary res!onded that he wouldnt ; and the *uestion was:(ould you ha"e se with a stranger for li%e E69,999 or something li%e that and Garyres!onded that he wouldnt do it and that he would feel dirty.

This caught Tonys attention because when !eo!le find it easy to feel dirty, it can mean

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that they are "ery hard on themsel"es and that they are used to !unishing themsel"esmentally. +o instead of saying, FI wouldnt want to do it because I dont belie"e in it. orFI 0ust dont li%e that. Gary said, FI feel dirty and that caught Tonys attention. Garyhad re"ealed e"entually that he was mostly ; Tony as%ed him whether he feels mostlyha!!y or mostly sad and Gary re"ealed that he was mostly sad. Then he told Tony told

the story of his daughter who drowned and then how Gary became an alcoholic and adrug user and then by use of Tonys !roducts he %ind of !ulled himself out of that and hehas been burned clean and he has been rebuilding his life.

Tonys net ste! was to in*uire Garys meanings. +o Tony as%ed Gary whether Garyblamed himself and Gary said, F@es, and Tony as%ed, F(ere you res!onsible for thedeath and Gary said, Fo, I was not. I was not there when she drowned. And Tonyas%ed, F(ell, would you belie"e that you should ha"e been there' and Gary res!onded,FI should ha"e been there too because how can a father let her ; let his daughter drown.+o at this !oint there are two clues about the !hase of grief where Gary was at this !oint.

The first clue was that he said that he wasnt res!onsible for the death but then he said hewas and the second clue was that he says, F&ow can a father let herdaughter drown'+o he has had a sli!, right' ?asically, he is tal%ing about someone else !robably. +o youas% yourself which of the stages of grief was he at' If you were doing an inter"entionwith someone in terms of grief, it is really im!ortant to understand where they are at interms of their emotions and whether they are focusing on. +o, as% yourself: (as itdenial' (as it anger and blame' In terms of the !hase, Gary was at the third !hase,bargaining' (as it the fourth !hase, de!ression' (as it the fifth !hase, acce!tance'

+o it seems to me that another adult was in"ol"ed with the circumstances, with the death.Gary !robably blamed ; !robably the childs mother but it is not certain but it definitelyseems that Gary was stuc% in blame and the way to understand his ; if it is true and Tonyalso obser"ed there is an anger underneath Gary when Gary said I was not ; go ahead.

#M: H%ay.

MP: Hh, did you say something' All right.

#M: +orry about that. +omebody was interru!ting me.

MP: o !roblem. Tony deduced *uic%ly that because of the amount of anger that seemsto be in Gary and that he was tal%ing about someone else being in"ol"ed that he wasntthere, that there was blame in"ol"ed. The *uestion is: &ow do you understand someonewho with Garys story. This is 0ust hy!othetical, but this is how I would understand it: Itis that when !eo!le are filled with blame and indignation about an in0ustice that ha!!enedand they are not able to do anything about it because when you are in the blame !hase,you cant do "ery much beyond blaming the !erson unless you are actually going to ta%ere"enge or !unish the !erson in some way. +ometimes !eo!le do that but they often dothat in a way that actually damages the !erson indirectly. If you su!!ose that Gary is fullof anger and blame then the substance abuse is !robably something that would ta%e him

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out of that etremely !ainful state.

#M: (ell, it is 0ust that, Mar%, let me add something here.

MP: @es.

#M: The alcohol and drug abuse there is used to blunt the emotion. At the momentwhen he is com!letely drun% or drugged, he is not thin%ing about the child anymore. Andoften this !eo!le use alcohol and drugs in that way to sto! things.

MP: And they use it sometimes to !unish other !eo!le in their li"es and also to !lace theblameD

#M: Hh, yes. Also to show loo% what has become of me. @eah.

MP: +o the reason I am going into this at this !oint here is 0ust because it is im!ortant to

see how Tony *uic%ly na"igated where Gary was and what he needed. &e saw basicallywhat was there under the surface and instead of going into li%e a logical le"el ordiscussing with Gary the details of the death, who is res!onsible and who wasntres!onsible and in our cases as coaches, if we were s!ea%ing with someone and they 0ustre"ealed this to us we would !robably want to get more details about the situations. (ewould and understand who the child is with and what were the circumstances so that weha"e more control of the meaning. ?ut Tony at this !oint saw that there was enoughanger there that he understood. &e basically decided to ta%e Gary to an emotionale!erience directly because I thin% he felt that he had a resource that he could gi"e Garyat that !oint instead of ta%ing him through the whole story of how things ha!!ened andwho is to blame.

Tony as%ed Gary to in"ite #helsea into the room and Tony redefined the relationshi!basically by bringing #helsea into the room in real time. &e is reinstating therelationshi! ece!t he is gi"ing her more authority than e"en Tony has in that situation.&e says, feel your connection to her. That is eternal. +o that you feel with her, you canfeel her lo"e and lo"e her, and feel a connection that is unbro%en beyond this life andbeyond any life and go beyond any !ain that has e"er eisted and something that iseternal.

And then he as%ed him, FAs% your little girl what addy needs to %now because she%nows, she is "ery wise now. And this is the strategy that #loe ; yes'

#M: 1cuse me one second. It is "ery interesting to me that he !ut her at the age thatshe would ha"e been in the !resent. +o now Gary is tal%ing to a 6/4year4old girl and notto a little child.

MP: @eah, it is "ery interesting and this is a strategy that you ha"e used for a long timeof as%ing the child to !ro"ide a directi"e to the !arents because it is ;

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J#ross4tal%ingK

#M: @ou are right. 5ight.

MP: +o, in this case, it is the child and Gary ; she is the one who !ro"ides him with the

ad"ice he needs. Tony as%ed Gary what he needs to %now or belie"es for certain andGary res!onds and he as%s, FAm I a good father' Am I good man' o I deser"e to ha"ea good life' Then Tony had Gary to as% her daughter and she re!lies that he is a goodman and deser"es a good life. Then Tony as%ed Gary to feel it in e"ery soul of his bodyin order to really ta%en in on the !hysical e!erience. ?asically this is a strategy thatTony uses to hel! Gary to forgi"e himself and to gi"e himself !ermission to mo"e on tothe net le"el of life.

(hat is ama2ing about this inter"ention is it is *uite a short inter"ention and it is notetremely com!licated ece!t and where Tony really catches on where Gary is at the!oint. I mean it wasnt a long inter"ention and the strategy that he gi"es Gary in terms of

bringing the child into the room is something that he does on a !retty ; it is 0ust a basisthat other !eo!le could re!licate.

#loe, any thoughts on that'

#M: o, it is an absolutely ecellent strategy because one of the things that Tony does inthis inter"ention is that he ma%es Gary accountable to his daughter. Gary was not loo%ingat it at all li%e that he was 0ust focused on this grief and his accountability of the momentof her death but not his accountability now. Tony was able to ta%e it to the !resent andhow he is accountable to his daughter now e"en after her death.

MP: @eah.

#M: +o that he can honor his daughter by ha"ing a good life and li"ing li%e a good!erson.

MP: That is !robably one of the biggest sources of le"erage where Tony used in both ofthese two inter"entions is that !eo!le when they are in grief, they tend to focus on thethings that ha!!ened to them or the thing that they lost and they totally loseaccountability for how they are s!ending their days, right' ?ringing them bac% to thatand ma%ing that a serious matter as the fact that they lost that !erson years ago. ?ut Tonydoes it in a soft way because he uses the childs "oice. &e didnt really direct Gary whatto say. I mean Gary had the *uestions and then he answered the *uestions.

#M: 5ight.

MP: +o it is %ind of ama2ing how that wor%ed. Anyway so, that wasD

#M: +hall we'

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MP: @eah, do some *uestions.

#M: +hall we go on to answer *uestions' (e ha"e a whole lot of *uestions.

MP: @eah, we ha"e a ton of *uestion so we are going to focus on that and also if you

ha"e any *uestions li"e, !ress star two and raise your hand. #loe, you ha"e some*uestions that are lined u! from the last session as well.

#M: H%ay, so one *uestion is: (hen you %now that someone will die how can you!re!are and hel! the !eo!le around the dying !erson' I %now a /64year4old father who%nows that he will die of a brain tumor. &is children are ten and thirteen years old and Iwould really lo"e to hel! them through the net long time and of course the father if Ican. The !arents got di"orced when the father found out that he was gay.

(ell, what you can do for the father and for the children is to hel! him and encouragehim to do e"erything that he can for the children until the moment that he dies. The

moment when he is going to die is un!redictable so whate"er the childrens challengesare, I would %ee! the father absolutely busy and not let him ha"e any ecuse for notta%ing care of the children. I remember one case that was in my institute a long time agowhere the father also had a brain tumor. The child had school difficulties and learning!roblems and the father was in that school and with the child, hel!ing the child, tal%ingwith the teacher, hel!ing tutor the child till the day that he diedB he was busy with that.

And of course, do e"erything you can to hel! the father to organi2e his financial situationso that the children will ha"e as secure a future as !ossible. (ith the children, hel! themto find out as much as they can of the fathers beliefs and "alues and what he wants forthem. Maybe for the father to write a will that is not only a will about financial mattersbut a will about what his beliefs and the familys beliefs are that he would li%e to transmitto the children, that he would li%e them to %ee!, to li"e by. It could be in the form of li%ea boo%.

Actually, this was a !ro0ect that I was going to ha"e with a lawyer somewhere in )loridaand somehow I got too busy and it ne"er ha!!ened. This was a lawyer that s!eciali2es inwills and trust es!ecially for the wealthy. &e felt that it was so im!ortant to ha"e a willthat was not about money and !ro!ertyB that was 0ust about "alues and beliefs. This issomething that e"erybody should ha"e and so that is my answer to that *uestion.

MP: I ha"e one *uestion for you, #loe. If there is a lot of ; I guess this is going to "aryfrom case to case but there are some case where !eo!le ha"e a disease and they are goingto ha"e trouble managing their estate at the end. I %now that you ha"e s!o%en tonumerous !eo!le who had someone li%e their !arent died and the !arent was in a lot of!ain towards the end. I guess basically you hel! the !arent to be as !resent as !ossiblebut thenD

#M: As !resent as !ossible when it is !ossible and also to let go. It is a !ity that thee!eriments on this had sto!!ed. I remember this was what in the late ; I am trying to

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remember it was !robably in the 9s that here in the +tates a lot of research was beingdone on $+P and M?MA and how the altered state of consciousness when it is guided.In a hos!ital setting when the !atient is dying the e!erience with $+P or M?MA canhel! the !atient to come to terms with their death. It hel!s them to see a higher meaningto the situation and then they can tal% with their family and gi"e them su!!ort and

reassurance and hel! them to come to terms with the death. ?ut all those e!erimentswere interru!ted and ne"er resumed. I am ho!ing that they will come bac% because thosedrugs not only ease the !ain but can gi"e when they are guided can gi"e a clarity ofthought and a clarity of s!irituality that the !erson would not normally ha"e.

H%ay, shall I go on to the net one'MP: Absolutely. Go to the net one.

#M: H%ay. F(hat is the !ersons belief system is challenged after a loss' That being nocertainty that God eists and there is no meaning any more, that life is only selfish andhas lost its meaning therefore in the end it is only suffering so why e"en be selfish and

eist if there is no !oint as loss is too !ainful.

(ell, the !erson that feels li%e that it really is a selfish !oint of "iew because theyfocused on their own !ain. The belief in God is not necessary to belie"e that the meaningof life is to contribute to other and to hel! others. There is always someone that is in aworse situation than ones self or someone that is in a more fragile situation or someonethat needs to be guided and you dont need to belie"e in God to belie"e that we are hereto hel! others so that is the belief that I would encourage.

MP: @eah, I agree. I mean !eo!le ; it "aries from !erson to !erson that I thin% when!eo!le ta%e u! a !osition li%e they are going ; if they are belie"ing in God and they ha"eli"ed their li"es in the face of God and then they decide that God is not doing what theywanted God to do, it doesnt ma%e sense. I mean it is %ind of !art of the deal that if the!erson has faith and they cant suddenly decide to 0udge the su!erior !ower from that!oint of "iew.

#M: All right, so here is a more mundane *uestion. #ould I begin to use a U5P1ducators 3it right away before I finish the IP Program' @es, you can.

MP: @es.

#M: H%ay, so here is another one. (hat is e"en the loss of the lo"e one and the strongfeelings associated with the loss or the connection' &ow do you re!lace that withsomething healthy'

(ell, that is "ery similar to Garys situation and actually to Maggies situation. The deadchildren had become the most im!ortant thing, the most im!ortant connection to themand it was im!ortant to re!lace it with something more meaningful and Maggieimmediately did that and she became "ery de"oted to charitable causes and Gary the lasttime I heard was going in that direction also. +o that the idea thatD

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MP: @ou also o!en u! to relationshi!s.

J#ross4tal%ingK

#M: 5ight. As%ing the dead !erson what would they ha"e wanted for one is the one wayto come out of that ty!e of connection.

MP: @es, I thin% it would ha"e as the !eo!le get ; they are attached to the loss. Theyha"e become attached to the loss basically. (hat they are focusing is the !erson that theydont want to let go and they dont want to let them eist either. +o you are holding on tothis !erson who died and you are not acting li%e you still ha"e access to that !erson. @ouno longer ha"e a relationshi! with the !erson. @ou used to ha"e a relationshi! with the!hysical !erson that was there before and so when Tony brings !eo!le ; these deceased!eo!le into your !resence where you actually ha"e that real time relationshi! with themthat is the way to counteract that !attern in !eo!le. @ou actually do ha"e access to that

!erson.

#M: 5ight. +o here is another one: This is a mother of a 74year4old boy who is "eryclose. +he is "ery close to him and she runs a ta!e in her mind about the child being indanger of dying and how she could not li"e with that !ain. (hat this is that you are notli"ing in the !resent. I thin% that fear and the fear of dying is a "ery healthy fear whenthere is a clear and !resent danger but if there is no danger at the moment, you areimagining things from the !ast and !ro0ecting you imagination into the future. It !re"entsyou from ha"ing the 0oy of life that you need to ha"e with your child. @ou ha"e got to!ractice being in the !resent and reali2ing that when you are in that fear, you are in animaginary world. @ou are in a schi2o!hrenic world. @ou are not in reality. #ome out ofthat because you dont want to teach your son to also be in the !ast or in a fearsomefuture in the imagination.

MP: @eah, I mean the fear is there.

#M: 1"ery !arent has that fear but you ha"e to bring yourself bac% to the !resent.

MP: That is right, "ery good.

#M: All right and the other *uestion: I ha"e been discussing this with his mother whoafter ha"ing se"eral children lost a child in childbirth and cannot switch off the saidfeeling.

Again I thin% that that is transmitting to your children who are "ery much ali"e and toyour husband that it is o%ay to be grie"ing for something that cannot be changed. If youcould begin to belie"e that you can control your emotions, you would also understandthat grie"ing is a choice and you can choose to be in de!ression and to be with the onesyou can ta%e care of and that you can teach 0oy of li"ing instead of teaching grief and!ractice e"erything that you can to bring yourself to the !resent: meditation, yoga,

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mantras, incantations that you say to yourself, in a certain way to grie"e for a lost child.@ou are going to see that in the net module about #arol. (hen there are other children,to grie"e so intensely for the one that died is to ta%e away something from the ones thatare ali"e. It is showing an incredible fa"oritism towards the one that died. oes thatma%e sense'

MP: Absolutely. I mean we all ha"e a !art of us where there are things that we dontwant to ha!!en and we focus on things that we dont want to ha!!en. ?ut in the cases ofa death or a loss or something this grief !rocess or the fi"e stages are about letting go ofthe le"el of yourself where you thin% that you can control the world with your griefwhether it is through your beliefs or your reactions or your fears. +ometimes you ha"e to0ust reali2e that it is a larger world and we dont ha"e control on e"ery !ercentage of theworld and 0ust to recogni2e that so that you can direct your energy towards the things thatyou can ma%e a contribution.

#M: @es. All right, here is another *uestion: F(hat guidance might you !ro"ide for

coaching teens who are grie"ing the brea%u! of a family through di"orce'

I will 0ust e!lain to them that in todays world, di"orce is a normal stage of familyde"elo!ment because it ha!!ens in more than 89 !ercent of families. i"orce is nolonger the ece!tion, it is a norm. Peo!le ha"e to ad0ust to family situations where thereare se"eral !arents, many relati"es and 0ust many more resources that become a"ailable.ot to thin% ; not to get into the idea that they are "ictims in some way because the!arents di"orced, or that they are bound to suffer always, or be !ulled and di"ided amongthe !arents. Lust ta%e it as a normal stage that they can ma%e the best of. They will ha"etwo homes. Maybe they will ha"e four !arents instead of two !arents and it can be seenas an enriching situation.

MP: @es. They still %ee! their relationshi!s with all of the !eo!le. That no one has beencast out, no one ceased to eist.

#M: o one has been lost.

MP: @es. o one has been lost. (hen you are in a family, it ma%es it con"enientbecause e"eryone is in the same house and it ma%es this tidy unit where !eo!le are in!hysical !roimity with each other. In the !ost di"orce family each !erson needs to wor%a little bit harder in %ee!ing contact with all of their relationshi!s but all of therelationshi!s are still there.

#M: 1actly. H%ay. &ere is another one: FI %now this is !urely hy!othetical, but howmight one alter the !rocess if a !erson did not belie"e in God, did not belie"e in theafterlife. (ould you instead maybe tal% about that !ersons memory of the !erson theyha"e lost' Get them to connect with the !art of that !erson that continued li"ing inside ofthem'

efinitely, totally, it is the same !rocess to wor% with someone that does not belie"e in

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God or in the afterlife. @ou 0ust say that you continue to carry that !erson inside of you.If it is a relati"e, their genes are inside of you whether it is a !arent or a child, thememories are !art of who you are. That !erson will always be ali"e inside of you and youalways listen to them and imagine what they would say to you. A belief in God or theafterlife is not necessary. Another !art of ; yeah, go ahead.

MP: It is also about ta%ing some more conscious control of your ability to createmeanings. +o if you are remembering that !erson, !eo!le in grief, they tend to go intothe situation where they are remembering only meanings that are !ainful to them becauseit is !art of their grief !attern "ersus thin%ing about times that you had great timestogether, or funny moments, or lo"ing moments or what it may be. (ith the !erson whodoes not belie"e in this su!ernatural force, I thin% you ha"e to em!hasi2e that they ha"e amemory and they ha"e this ability to call bac% e!eriences using these facility of theirmind.#M: Absolutely. H%ay. Perha!s you could address how one might a!!ly the !rocess to a

more general loss. Tony mentions the lost of inner sense or control with whom would a!erson ha"e the inner dialog to hear the answer they need to hear in those %inds ofsituation. (hat %inds of *uestions might we as% to re"eal their inner resource for thosesituations'

I do not %now whether this *uestion comes from someone who has not done yet themodule on the archety!e because one thing that you can call u!on is the LungianArchety!e. The idea is that we all carry within us uni"ersal archety!ical figures such as:The (arrior, The Magician, The $o"er and The 3ing or The ueen or the Goddess andyou can as% those archety!es inside of you. &ow would they guide you' @ou can alsoimagine someone li%e your grandmother. (hat would your grandmother say if she couldsee you or she could tal% to you' (hat would she say to you' Hr what would the firstgrade teacher that lo"ed you so much ; what would she say' (e all ha"e access to manyresources li%e that.

MP: That is great.

#M: H%ay. F&ow to o"ercome loneliness e"en surrounded by !eo!le I feel alone' I 0ustreali2ed that I ha"e been o!erating this way since I was a %id. ow that I ha"e lost thebiggest lo"e of my life, which one I did not feel lonely at all, now I feel com!letelylonely e"en that there is !eo!le around me. #ould you suggest something'

I thin% contribution is the answer. @ou need to contribute to others who are really alone. Isus!ect that you are not really !hysically alone. +o if you can contribute to others, youwill gradually come out of the loneliness because you will feel that you are hel!ing other!eo!le. Go ahead, Mar%.

MP: @eah. (hen we come u! against losses li%e this we tend to come u! against %indof the nature the world a little bit or the nature of life and it is somewhat beyond the %indof the human e!erience that we are used to. (hen we ha"e someone die, we reali2e it

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goes beyond our ability to sto! or !re"ent them from dying or you may be in a situationwhere suddenly feel more alone than you e"er did before or you may feel for instancethat there is more danger in the world if you ha"e for instance someone die through anaccident or through an illness or something that you might feel that there is more that youneed to !re"ent. These situations we li"e in such a comfortable society where we do not

ha"e that e!erience "ery muchB much of the way that we li"e our li"es and our basicneeds are met "ery comfortably, so it is shoc%ing when that ha!!ens. I thin% there is anattitude that needs to be brought to those that you are being lead into another le"el ofunderstanding what the uni"ersal and life is about.

(hen !eo!le do die, danger is there. Peo!le are in some ways alone and some ways arenot alone. If you can ha"e an attitude of o!ening u! to that and es!ecially ha"ingcom!assion for other !eo!le who are ha"ing these e!eriences much more often thanyourself rather than thin%ing, FHh this is a bad thing, I cannot ha"e this, ; !eo!le cannotbe alone. Peo!le thin%s, FIt cannot be out of my control. FThings cannot be dangerous.but they are sometimes. ?ut if you can o!en4u! to that and reali2e and a!!reciate the

e!erience of millions of other !eo!le, billions of other !eo!le who ha"e thosee!eriences and it is !art of the human condition then you can %ind of not embrace it butacce!t it as something that ha!!ens to the !eo!le and !ut a good intention into it so thatwhen you e!erience it you reali2e, FHh, this how the world is. This is a new thing. Ihad not really understood it but millions of !eo!le, millions of my ancestors ha"e gonethrough this and I am going to honor it now.

#M: @eah, "ery good. &ere is another one: F&ow could a coach hel! !eo!le that areatheist or stoicist to o"ercome grief' I ha"e not heard of someone who is a stoicist and Ido not %now how long' That is "ery interesting.

(ell, with a stoicist it is really easy because you are su!!osed to stoic so you 0ust face u!to it and handle it. ?eing stoic is great and that is it. @ou 0ust go on about your wor%. Allright.If you an atheist, it a!!lies what I said before. The !erson is still inside of you. (e areall related. (e are related to e"eryone in the world who is ali"e and we are related toe"eryone who is dead than most es!ecially to someone who is dead, who has the samegenes that we do with whom we ha"e memories and e!eriences. In that sense, no onee"er dies. They are inside of us.

Alright. &ere is another *uestion: FI ha"e not finished watching the films, but from oneI ha"e seen in the "ideos on both cases Tony wor%ed with the !ersons s!iritual belief!articularly the belief that the child lost is now somewhere else still ali"e, "ibrant, etc.&ow can we hel! !eo!le from whom this assum!tion is not a reality'

(ell, it is the same answer that I 0ust ga"e. F(hat can we do for !eo!le to whom the*uestion ; what would he want you to do with your life because there is more !ain, sincethere is no !oint in it because the child no longer eists and cant !ossibly ha"e anywishes or desires anymore'

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@es, they do eist. )or eam!le: The baby that died at child birth has the same genes asthe mother and has the same genes as the siblings. (hen that child want to be fa"ored tothe !oint that the mother is grie"ing so much that there is transmission to the otherchildren that life is sadness so that is how you handle it. That does not ma%e sense,Mar%'

MP: @eah. It is still a wish e"en though the !erson may ha"e been deceased. @ou canloo% at what Tony is doing with Gary de!ending on your belief system as a meta!horwhere he brings a !erson. @ou can belie"e that Gary is actually bringing his daughterthere in his !resence or you can belie"e that it is a meta!hor for him. 1ither way, thereare wishes that the children ha"e for their !arents. #hildren wish their !arents to beha!!y and ha"e good li"es. The children also wish !arents to show them how to beha!!y and ha"e good li"es. In this case, if the !erson is an atheist these are the wishes ofthe !eo!le who are deceased. (hat you do is you res!ect those wishes. I mean if I !asson I ho!e that my family res!ects some of the wishes of how I belie"e that life should becarried on and it does matter where I go after I die. I ho!e that they res!ect that. That

does not really ; it is s!iritual dimension but it is a meta!hysical *uestion. @ou can ta%eit on that base le"el.

#M: H%ay. &ere is another one that is "ery similar: F(hat if the grie"ing !erson was"ery religious and now has lost com!lete faith or trust in God and now doubt her child isin hea"en but instead only belie"es the child is but a memory.

It is not but a memory. The memory is a huge thing and the memory is that it is ali"e oralmost as ali"e as a real !erson. That memory has to be res!ected and the wishes ha"e tobe carried out. Another thing that you can ad"ise !eo!le to do is to do somethingmeaningful on the anni"ersary of the birthday of the !erson that died. )or eam!le:#reate a s!ecial fund to hel! !eo!le with a certain %ind of !roblem. )or eam!le:+omebody ; if it is a !arent who died the %ind of charitable thing that that !arent wouldha"e wanted to ha!!en. If it is someone that died of murder to do something for the!re"ention of "iolence on a certain date e"ery year in order to the !erson who died. If itis a baby that died in childbirth, to do something s!ecial to !re"ent childbirth death in thefuture or to hel! mothers who ha"e gone through that so that you %ee! the memory ali"eby doing something in honor of the !erson who has died.

MP: Absolutely. @es, it is. Peo!le get sometimes "ery hang4u! on their !ersonal loss.This is ob"iously understandable. Hne way is to reach out to other !eo!le who are in thatsimilar situation. The other thing is to...

#M: To change it into a contribution.

MP: @es, and the other thing is to meditate sometime on tradition and not on the but on the !ast of all the generations of !eo!le who ha"e made similarsacrifices or ha"e had similar situations who ha"e res!ected the wishes of the !eo!lewho ha"e died before them and therefore had been able to hel! others. Atheist should beable to understand that there ha"e been generations of humans who ha"e been gone

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through those e!erience and they ha"e been able to ma%e meaning out of e"en hardthings that ha!!ened or losses.

#M: 5ight. 1"ery religion has rituals for that.

MP: @es.

#M: &ere is a *uestion that I answered in !ri"ate but I want to answer it anyhow. Thatis: F(hat is the best time to start hel!ing someone who has lost a lo"e one' &ow muchtime should !ass before starting to hel!'

I had once a brother who was %illed and he wants to hel! the family. I thin% your hel!immediately as soon as !ossible.

5elated to this ; the *uestions, I 0ust want to mention how long does it ta%e to grie"e andthat I belie"e that the Lewish grief time is a year and that is what most of the mental

health field belie"e is the normal time to grie"e for someone. A whole year of feeling sadat times and thin%ing a lot about the dead !erson is com!letely normal and should not beconsidered a de!ression or anything li%e that. H%ay.

MP: @eah. I would also say that, if you are a!!roaching someone it sounds li%e the*uestion is: F(hen would be a good time to hel! someone who is going through a grief.

+ometimes this is the time this is the time where you need to be etraordinarilyunderstanding and com!assionate and "ery ; "ery tolerant of whate"er reaction theyha"e. There maybe !eo!le who are angry for days on end but if you want to hel! them,you ha"e to go into that con"ersation. @ou do not ha"e to change anything to be able tobe tolerant that the fact that they are angry or u!set for instance or they maybe bargainingin one of these fi"e stages where they are thin%ing about different ways of thin%ing aboutor they may be stuc% in blame. (hate"er !hase they are at, it is im!ortant that you arethere and you are !resent to the !erson in whate"er !hase, whate"er emotional e!eriencethey are ha"ing. In other words it is not a situation where you say, FHh, you are angrynow, I will come bac% and hel! you with your grief when you are feeling better. @ou%ind of ha"e to come in and be with the !erson where"er they are at and do not try tochange them. Lust being !resent and 0ust being a"ailable to them is enough.

#M: H%ay. &ere is one last *uestion in writing: F&ow does it wor% when losing !art ofyourself or a !erson in a relationshi!' &ow *uic%ly can this %ind of !rocedure be used'Is there a normal time of grief, a year or so'

@es. I thin% it is a year or so. )or eam!le: I ha"e a lot of e!erience with immigrationand the immigrant losses ; in a sense losses the whole country, many familyrelationshi!s, a whole !art of their identity and it ta%es at least a year to ad0ust, !robablymore. I do not %now if you want to add ;

MP: That is in immigration'

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#M: @es. In immigration in many situations or when you sim!ly lose a relationshi!through di"orce, there is a grie"ing !rocess that ta%es at least a year. It is similar to thedeath of a !erson but it is different in the sense that you can still maintain the connection.+o it is a !artial loss. It is not a total loss.

MP: (ould you gi"e !eo!le ad"ice on how to s!end that time' &ow to best !rocessthat'

#M: (ell, you ha"e to sal"age the best from your !ast relationshi!. +o for eam!le, if itis a di"orce, turn it into friendshi!. If it is an immigration !roblemB ha"e fre*uenttele!hone calls, emails, letters, !resentsB %ee! the ties going. In todays world, we li"e ina situation where so many relationshi!s are in fluctuation and you ha"e to ma%e an effortto sustain them. (e do not li"e in a little "illage anymore with generations in the sametown.

MP: ?ecause of internet you dont really lea"e !eo!le behind anymore on their own...

J#ross4tal%ingK

#M: That is right. 1"erybody can find you. And it goes on and on. Alright, do we ha"eany li"e *uestions'

MP: (e ha"e some li"e written *uestions and if anyone wants to get on the !hone !ressstar4 to raise your hand. To the written *uestions: FIf angry at God the blame !hase'

@es, I would say that is the blame !hase. That is where you are basically trying to restore0ustice, restore certainty and significance by assigning res!onsibility to someone. It cancontinue throughout the !hases ; the net !hases of bargaining. Peo!le can be!reoccu!ied in trying to communicate with God and bargain with God and see whetherthere are some other o!tions for instance. The de!ression !hase where !eo!le arede!ressed, they can actually conclude that God hates me or that God does not fa"or me,or the God has forsa%en me. The !hases can be !re4occu!ied with the religious ormeta!hysical *uestions all the way through. ?ut the anger !hase is definitely where youtry to defy something and blame, assign a res!onsibility.

I ha"e a *uestion here ; a statement it loo%s li%e: FI thin% that I am in acce!tance,howe"er, when creating new meanings I ha"e a hard time so when you ha"e to ma%e adecision whether to %ee! e"erything ; trying to %ee! e"erything to %ee! someone ali"e or0ust let them go !eacefullyB what are the new thoughts that you could ha"e. (hen myfirst son was born, he did not ha"e his lungs well4de"elo!edB in fact, they were not allwell to %ee! him breathing. The doctors did all they could to try to !ush his lungsBhowe"er, the lungs could ha"e e!loded so we decided to sto! the !ushing them.uestions that come are: (hat if we ha"e chosen differently' (hat if he had a chance'

#M: I am sure that you chose the right thing and you got the right medical ad"ice and

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what you do not want is to !rolong the suffering. I thin% you ha"e to let the !erson go!eacefully, definitely.

MP: @es. H%ay, I ha"e another *uestion here: #an you wor% with !eo!le who ha"e losttheir husbandB that are older and suffering dementia or Al2heimers or memory loss'

#M: I %now it is hard. @ou ha"e to do e"erything that you can. There is a wonderfulmo"ie but unfortunately it is in +!anish. It is from Argentinean mo"ie. The son of thebride where this man has a mother who is suffering from dementia and the film is "erybeautiful, showing all that he does to hel! her. I thin% that we now %now that !eo!le withdementia and Al2heimers ha"e moments of lucidity. +he has to ca!ture those momentsand all you can do is to remind them of where they are now and what is ha!!ening nowand hel! them with their fears because I thin% the most !ainful thing about dementia andAl2heimers is how frightened the !erson can become.

MP: @ou would not be wor%ing with them cogniti"ely in the sense of ta%ing them to

!hases but you would be wor%ing with them to hel! manage their rituals and theiren"ironment.

#M: 5eassuring them. I was 0ust tal%ing with a young woman who wor%ed withdementia !atient and she is wor%ing with this woman whose husband died eighteen yearsago and still once in a while this woman was saying, FAnd where is my husband'Painfully the careta%er has to say he died a long time ago and you %now that he died.+ometimes she cannot e"en dare to say that so she says, F&e is away, he is gone away.Then the woman says, F(here' and she said, FI am not sure, I do not %now where heis. It is "ery difficult. @ou 0ust ha"e to be sensiti"e and answer whate"er is the %indestthing.

There was a "ery interesting article in the ew @or% Times 0ust two or three days ago byLustice ay H#onnor of the +u!reme #ourt as%ing for funding the research onAl2heimers because there is going to be more than a billion !eo!le with Al2heimers inthe United +tates "ery soon. There is "ery little money for research and it is hard foraging condition. (hat we %now so far does not ta%e you anywhere because e"en!resident 5egan in to! !hysical sha!e and with all the mental stimulation that he had, hadAl2heimers. ?ut that is an aside, alright.

MP: @eah. (e ha"e another *uestion here: FAny suggestions on how to hel! !eo!le toforgi"e themsel"es. I find that most of the time the biggest source of !ain is the inabilityfor self4forgi"eness. o you ha"e any techni*ues'

J#ross4tal%ingK

#M: @ou 0ust ha"e to remember ; ecuse me, go ahead.

MP: I thin% first of all you ha"e an intellectual discussion about what the realres!onsibility that the !erson could ha"e hadB if they are blaming themsel"es for

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something. Cery often in the case of loss, !eo!le create ; when !eo!le lose something, itis so confusing and bewildering that !eo!le want to sim!lify it. @ou can sim!lify it andfigure out whose fault it is. If you say it is my fault, the im!ulse is to sim!lify a "eryserious situation, an unfamiliarity %ind of brush with the nature of reality, which is that!eo!le die.

Hn a logical le"el, you can really !ic% a!art and wor% with the !erson to understandwhether it ma%es any sense with blaming themsel"es. Hn the emotional le"el ; then youha"e these other things that we tal%ed about where you ha"e to thin% about what you canreally do. 1"en if you ; this is the weird thought I 0ust had, #loe. If you ha"e someonewho is in grief and they are blaming themsel"es, I %now that if you are wor%ing withsomeone on another situation, you will gi"e them a re!aration to do. +o if someone iscom!letely determined to be blamed for something that has caused the grief situationwould you sometimes 0ust go with that and gi"e them re!aration'

#M: @es. That is a good idea. I would say whether you are res!onsible or not an act of

re!aration will hel!. If not you, it will hel! others.

MP: @eah.

#M: Then I would !lan the acts of re!aration or the act of contribution.

MP: @eah. It is a funny thing because sometimes when !eo!le are so stuc% on in0ustice,they are so stuc% in the blame frame that it is "ery hard to tal% them out of someone beingres!onsible for what ha!!ened. In this case, there are situations where you can actuallyha"e them acce!t res!onsibility for something e"en if it is on a meta!hysical le"el so thatthey can actually do something to re!air it.

This is a %ind of a %ind of a tangential story: There was a guy ; a neighbor of mine whohad a *uarrel many years ago. Another neighbor of ours was damaging this guys car ona regular basis and we had no idea why. My neighbor went o"er to this other guy andbasically ga"e him a long a!ology for whate"er he may ha"e done to offend the !ersonand he had not done anything but he made a "ery etensi"e a!ology and that ha!!enedagain and then he came and did another a!ology at the guys door. &e %e!t coming bac%and a!ologi2e whate"er ha!!ens to whate"er he may ha"e done he a!ologi2es with theguy. And the guy sto!!ed. The funny thing is he was totally nuts. I mean he had nothingto a!ologi2e for. +ometimes an a!ology or re!aration will wor% e"en if it does not ma%esense. +ometimes that is the only thing that will ma%e sense of the situation.

#M: Absolutely. Alright.

MP: H%ay, so let us see if there is any more li"e *uestions. H%ay. +o we got no !hone*uestions today.

#M: Alright.

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MP: $et me see if there is one more. I 0ust want to ma%e sure that I ha"ent lost any.H%ay, I ha"e a *uestion. This is from &enny and if you ha"e a follow4u!, !lease ty!e itin.

This is someone who is ha"ing trouble studying. This is not a grief4related *uestion.

F+he has trouble studying for their eam and does not want to ta%e action about it andstudy. I ha"e heard from another *uestion from the !ast that there are some familyrelationshi!s that are in"ol"ed where the father has some o!inions about this !ersonseam and their studies. +o he has ; it sounds li%e there is a conflict between studyingand !arental relationshi!s getting in"ol"ed in that.

#M: Lust remember that you are studying for yourself not for your father and createrewards for certain accom!lishments li%e for eam!le: If you concentrate for an hourthen you get a s!ecial reward for ten minutes or if you ha"e learned two cha!ters, youwill reward yourself with something. ?ut it is really bad to ma%e it about your father.@ou ha"e to get com!letely out of that framewor%. It is about you, it is about your

contribution, it is about your life.

MP: @eah. It is "ery im!ortant and also you can 0ust ma%e it ; 0ust boil it down to theactions that you need to ta%e. +ometime we get stuc% when we are thin%ing about ourmoti"ations and what we want and what we feel li%e we can do so much and we forget tothin% about the actual concrete ste!s of doing what needs to be done. I ha"e thirty !agesthat I need

J#ross4tal%ingK

#M: ?rea% it down into segments, yes.

MP: ?rea% it down into segments so there are =9 !ages and then tell yourself, FH%ay, Ineed to do these !ages ; fi"e !ages a day, because I ha"e si days to study or whate"er itmaybe. And then you ha"e to gi"e yourself a conse*uence for not doing those. If youdo not do that ; this has nothing to do with any other family member or any otherrelationshi!. This is a !romise you made to yourself to do this. Then you can ; whatwould ha"e been a good conse*uence for that be, #loe'

#M: @ou mean to !unish yourself if you dont'

MP: If you do not do something that you !romised to yourself to do because you decidedto do it.

#M: (ell, then do something else that would be good for your health li%e 89 !ushu!s or0og three miles ; something li%e that.

MP: @ou ha"e to 0ust set u! an accountability system for yourself because you cantcontrol the relationshi!s with the other family members, but this is your life and this isyour career.

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#M: 1actly.

MP: +o you need to set u! the concrete ste!s 0ust to 0ac% u! the concrete ste!s of whatyou need to do to succeed in that endea"or. Put it on a schedule. Gi"e it how many ;

what is the time of day, when you are going to do this and if you do not do this, you needto go do something else that is !hysically difficult for you to do such as going for a threemile run, or doing a hundred !ush4u!s or something else. If you do not do then you needto bring u! the accountability and do 99 !ushu!s or =99 !ushu!s.

#M: 1actly. Alright, I thin% it is time to say goodbye.MP: H%ay, e"erybody. (e are unmuted now so we will tal% to you guys later. Than% you"ery much for coming.Audience: Than% you.

#M: ?ye4bye. ?ye, e"erybody. Than% you.

Audience: ?ye.

Documents

28 -Overcoming Grief - Gary - Teleclass - Transcript