f3 Xovmsmiwt, 19132,.16

a the Bill provides that no perron;; of bloodrelationship shall he allowed to mnarry, Ioffer no objection to its pa .ige.

Question put and passed.

Bill read a ,econd time.

it Committee.

Bill passed through Committee withou tdebate, reported without ainidmeiit and thereport adopted.

teoislative Hssenibfp,7'?,ursdnq. 3rd .Vorembci, 1.932.

Annual iiuiurates . Vot anid W11"hu tii'qi-wlfAttorney (Urnernil.. .. .. ..Nlink. er fcr Miles .............I anucil Ni jiisiril Ikvilomirt I -Mrol iN, . . . .Fort,mt4 . . . . .('1111t Wefare and Owlnorli it Rletuerniloymnenl Rteliefl . .

PA4OV1565

1585

15003100

Thle Sl'iEAKElI took time Chair at 4.:30k.nm., and read p1I1yprs.

ANNUAL ESTIMATES, 1932-33.

in Committee of Supply.

lieszunmied from thle Ipreviomts day Mrl%Richardsoni in the Chair.

Vot e-Aluornec,, General, C65,561:

THE MIN7STER FOR LANDS (Himn.C. G. athami-York) [4.33]1 move-

Thiat this Vote be l)Oitlhoflcd.

RON. P. COLLIER (IBoulder') [4.34]:I ain sorry, the Attorney General is: not pre-sent this. afternooni. but I cannot allow thismotion to lie passed without expressing myobjec-tionL to a statement mode byv him lasteveniog. He is reported to hare said thatthe- Pre-idenit of time Arbitration Court had

smde rid iculoa- remark,,. Tile President ofthat court occupies a po~ition equal to that

ofajudge of the Supreme Court. It is not,

periisihlc for any member of this Hlou-cto vyitiei.w a imemlber of the Supreimi Courtbenchl. Mtost of all. I Iav* it k unllbecomi n gin the headl il' tht, C. ro wn Lawii Di n t mit.the Attorney General, to make a remark,that woudl 1)ring1 I-onttlimlt upon01, or belittle.a meimbner of the Supreme Court bench. Ii*Il hi inago me the in a in the street, thie-ket-roue critic, making a remark of~ thekind the Attorney G eneral is reported to

have mnade. but it is unthinkable that tileAttomrnev' y (;eal should offer. critiisma ofilmi.. kind (.innm.'Iij the President of theA rbitiation Court. I hle.,tate to raise thequestion in thle absemce of tie Attorne'yGener'al. a ad 1 am sorr 'y hie is niot presenT.It ill-beconie. him to make remarks eon-eerninn the holder of a position that isequivalent to that of a judge of time S upreme:Court. amid which sal-yours of belittling theoccupant of that p)osition., f t is all ver ,ywvell for or self-satisfied youngr grentlemanto talk in this way, but if the remkark hadbeen mamdc by someoue Oil thle Esplanade orinl the str~eet, the police would have takenaction. I regret very much that thie Attor-neY Gleneral should so far hove forgottenhimself as to have given expre'siom to theopii on that any1 maon occupying the posi-tion of President of thle Arbitration Courthad mode a ridiculous statemnet,

THE MINISTER FOR LANDS (lon.C. 0. La thain-Vork-in reply) f4.33): Iwas.- present dimrimilg the debate last eveniing-.lbut did not hear the remark attributed tothe Attorney General. lie cannot, of course.lie heldW responisible for army mnistake thatmar have beeni made hr the Press. At allevenits, niembleiM wrill hare an opportunityof taking upl the matter on the return ofthle Attorney General onl Tuesday nest.whem no doubt a fill] explanation will lie"itile to time House. I agree it is right thatthiis Chamber should maintain the diu'nit vof our court.,. We have no righ Ot to say ally-thing that would brine ridicuile oil ourl.judges inl thle eyes of the pablic. if wehmere do not imaintain the dignty of our

Ju~ewe cannot expect ainyone else to do-o. I can only say that the Attorue-4 Gen-eral im-it. have been mnis-reported. I donoit remember that lie made the remark at-tributed to him. but T feel sure he will take

150--)

1560 (ASSEMNBLY.]

the firist Opplortunlity to make amends if hielid say' it. This i s the first tim I haveheard about the matter. 'When the itemsaIre before menibers next Tuesday, the At-tornecy General will have an oIpp6rtunity ofmaking- amiends if lie has not been incor-rectly reported, an mi0 embers %viI I have thleopportunity to £discuss the Whole matter.

Motion pit mid 1)assed.

Departmnt of the 11 iristei- for Mlines(Hon. J. Seaddanl).

l'ote-.Mtncs, V102,564:

THE MINISTER FOR MINES (Fro,..1Seaddlant-Ma~ylands) [4.40] :The Esti-

'ali es of expenditure oif tile Mlinles Depart-mlent anad one ot- two sub-departments donot var-Y lua toally fromn the actual expert-dittire Of last 'Year, except that t hey showaat reduiction Of app roxima telv £C2,000. 'ritea di vities; of the de1 u,a zt are, cntrcelIarigelv- uponl tile prtoductioni of gold, a!l-though it is chairged also with the responisi-bility1 of adinlinistering all miatters affectingbase metals, coal, and, if we are fot-tuna teenloughI to discover it, nil. .At thle uhtaaeatthe "lost important feature of its activitiesis gold Miig.It canl be said thtat of allthe indusftries in this State, a ad in AutstralIia,tile iinting ind0 ti iwv is tilie mlost p~os pe ~ots.It is prosperous not oil],' beecause goIld hasalIwa 4sv been looked uponi as.1 a comml~oditywhich is readily marketable, but also be-cause it maintains its lmrket value. For-tunlately*v, froml the standpoint of the Stateand1( I believe of A titra lia tas a whole, apresetit gold has a ir enhanced value. Thisis evidenced because of tile r-eady tmarketfor it and t-le keenness of the denatid forit. The producers have had the benelit ofthat demanid anld the additional '-a lue r-epire-sented by' the p rei ink in the form Of thledifference in the exchange rate betweetn Auls-trahia i eiutretney' and sterlinjg. WesternlAustria iIntlintaills thle proud position ofbeing the preiniel- gold produlcer in Austn -lasial. I'l fortun a t' , vwe ar-c not prVoduceingthe Sallie qula itit3-, or hlave niot been dohigs0 ifl recent year.,, t ha t was produced in theearlyN h ist rn-v of goldl production.

.%r. Marshall: Alluitvial gold played a Iglp)art in tile ea ilY days -

The miNIsrEli FOR M[NES: That isnot now as a bundanut as reef gold. We

reached ottr peak 'yearI ill 1903, whten tileouttput totalled 2,064,000 ounces valued ait£8,770,000. Thle industry reached its lowestpoiiit after that (late in 1929, whlen the ot11pitt wats 377,716 ouiinces, valued tl £1.602,0011.That was a very serious drop, i volvi iieover £7,000,000 ill value. After 1929 ui~eindusttw liegaii to go ithieid again. Thatwats duie to thte fact that Australia wva jtustentering upon what is oily too well knownas a depression, a state of affa irs whtichgenerally gives advantage to the gold plo-(lacer. Iln 1931 the p~roduttiton of gold inl-creased to 610,372 ounces, valued at£C2,972,770. I amo delighted to be itia posil ion to say that the mnci-easeill producitiotn still continues. For thef,-st inte months of this y'er-rheIt.st figtures; I enatt obtaini are to theend of Septemiber-production reacheda total of 448,31.4 fine ounces of all approxci-ate value, including the elihaneed price of

gold and exchange, of £3,237,3038, as againsta value for the whole of last year of£:2,972,770. Compared with the first nineinontbis of 13,the production this yearlitis shown an increase of 93,559 ounces,aind onl normal "alIues that would represent£E397,626 above that recorded for the firstnine intths of the previous year. Basedonl the 72 per cent. pr-emium, which isslightly below the percentage ob~tained at theiotnien t, that would tmeani an increased valuec

of £683,917 over that of the production forthe first nine months of 1931. A fewvmonths ago I stated [ had reason to believethat this , eatr we would more nearly op-p1 oaeh the production of gold valued at£5,000,000 than for sonc time past, and anttiiber of people asserted that I wvas alto-gether undluLly optimistic and that there wastlothing, to wa-tirant mny iiaking that state-inent. As a fact, thre average mionthly out-pt for the fitrst nine mfoniths of this yearhas been 50,.000 ounces in round numbers.T'ire acttual productioti averaged 49,513 fineounces. If that average canl be maintainedin the three clositng mouths, we will havea total production of 597,756 ounces. Onthre other hand, there has been a gradual in-crease monthly and I happen to know thatextra efforts are being made at the momentbecause of the fttither increaise in the priceof gold. Therefore dtu-inag the tlire-e filialmonths we are likely to improve on th *ataverage, and I dto not doubt that wve shall

:3 NOVE miOT, I 932.1 56

exceed ti111141{I0 ounces for the 12 months.It, howet cc, we reach 597,7561 ounces only,1.oi11n.11iv that will rep're-ent a value ofU.5404,40i With thle preiniti of 71) peeL it.-it will aiverage intre thart thbat. and] atthe uiotent it is 81) lper ccitt.-that will re-prVeent a valueI ol' nlearly .; V ,3201.000. In thoseocircums~tanes, I teel confident that at theend of l~eeihcr it will he found that, wvithtle ext ma impetus that ha, been gi ren toprtoduction due to the enhanced price ofgold, we shall tnt he Ilort Of gold recoveryworth X5.11I0,I000 for the year, as againsta i-alit, of just tinder C1.0JOO,,000 for lastrea r, (Of courw I know it was, probably-unwise to make sucit mu optimistic ;trate-mnt at the momenrt I did, as we were thenithreatened with the loss of the gold bonu~..At the -atne timie. I rathier viewed it fromthe 4tmidpoinf that it would be q further

cucorneeentto those who hare -;ccn fit to.grant flte -old bonus to continue it. 1becausedefinlite evidence was there that the pro-dnetion of' a very desirable and essentialcommodity was being increasedl asc themonth, wvent on. If a bonus can help byittereasing the production of a comimoditythat can find .a ready market at enhancedvalues, '.urely it is the type of productionthat s;houldl receive the benefit of n bonus.and( thu-c in the industry should not lie dis-conrugeil by tile removal of that assistance.I say mlosit emphatically that the increasedproduction of gold, as c'omtpared with anyother conuotlity I know of, helped veryma tersily in repaying the cost to the tax-Payers involved in the provision of theliotis and also in the production ofl othercommnodities hr making available the essen-tials to citable thle exchange and tmarketingof those commuodities. Instead of there beinganyvcotullaitnt against suich a statemuent re-iting to thle posbiiyor gldi~ productionimcrea-ii-, to the extent I indicated, a con-trarv attitude should have been adopted and

suld have stimulated those in (-]arge ofthe g-overnment of Aui.tralia to c-ontinuec-ential asistaiice to encourage the pro-durtion of a comumodity that -we all desireshall be augmuented. Increased pirodulctionwas& largely' helped by virtue of the fact thatthe British Government's g-oing off the goldstandard enabled commodities to he placed]Ott the nttrkets; of the world. With the ex-elumu rate ila our favour, thle increased pro-docttion Of' gold has been of tremiendous;

lieniih to) the State a3, a whole. Ilt repre--cliti Lone Of thoise ha ppeninp1. inl the historvOf t a cou11try thait is not appreciated in a

~vs.I hav e Often said that it a Govern-IlI('Id should take action zo prevent someilielty arising, itii onie ever sugmretthat anything wiirthv of' notice lhas beenti4itip. tOn thie o)therhand it, after anl

ei , apjpareint and dilbe(ultics have ietit-all;, arisen, a 'ov~lRiiieut should takeateItilln ii) (oilI' with that situation.thiev receive a fair amlounit ol' publlic aji)-

pl1alse1L. The sameR thin,-- applies to theitstiitlilftioi of kitll iitlistii'v such- as tha.1trelalting1 to g-Oidmlininlg. It is not easy rotrtile people lit the iotieit-l ierti to thleg'rei t h I I ofit' hepuoIa t ionl-wh o liv;e in.,. lose cotitacet wvith industries that hare sut-fer-ed seriously On account or thle depreci-ation and are no longer able to l-WRlkeeat imoitable poives,, to realise what the in-creased production. Of gold means to theState .-i nw hole. Whenl I p)oint Out thatinl a little Over two years the number ofmuen eImployed iii the mnining indiustry hasincreased by more than 78 per cent., Or,in actual figlures, hr :3,223 additional men.it can he seen what has been happeningin the State. We can realise what ha-sOccurred in that industry hr Comparingit with others that have sufuered severeblows, d[ate to thle depression. [f the gold-

iing~i industry, instead Of elyingil, ad-ditnoal men and increas[ing- its production,had fallen away to the extent that thepastoral, timbher and wheaIgrrow i g indus-tries have .done, it is hard to visnalisewhat might have happened here.

Mrit. Marshall: )oul have referr-ed merelyIn the wag-es men, hut what about thosewho are out prospectinwg, for ins;tancee

Thle MIN'ISTER FOR 'MINES: F. appre-ciate that fact; I have been rc rerring so,far mnerek' to those actually emuployed inthe iningn. industry. [I' the industry' hadnot received the beniefit or the enhancedprice ofr gold and the exmchne rate, huthad been carried On a, it was in 1929.without anyx variation, it would have mneantthat we would have had to provide foran additional 3,223 men qtuite apart frontthose who have to receive assistancee to-dla y. ThIt WORMld e in ad~dition, also, tothose who are now out prospecting andare not accounted for as, bein,- employedlit] the goldinining- industr.

1567

1568 [AS"SEMFBLY.]

Mr. N~arshall : If my informnation iscorrect, a large percentage of the monemlployed on the (:olden MAile camue fromthe Eastern States.

Tfli MINISTER FOR MINES: I donot think that is correct.

31 p. 'Ma ishall: A fa il rie enta ge.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: Possiblythere wvere a fewv from the Eastern Statesbut I do not thii nk most of them caine frontthose p)arts.

'.rt. Mlarshall : Take lie position atWYiluna. A large proportion of those emt-jplo ,vcd there ig.rated from the EasternStates.

The MINI STER FOR MiNES; [ be-li eve a fair number caime from other placesthan thle Pastern States, but that does notalter the position much from the State'spoint of view. If the men are in employ-mnrt, and are engaged in producing a comn-nuodity of value to Western Australia,and so ait enabling trade and commerceto Ile carried oil wvith increalsinrg actiivity,then the employment of those men is bene-ficial to the State ats a whole. Quite apartfront tihat, however, in the ecirecustanesI have outlined there won]ld have been thatadditional 3,223l men who would have hadto he eared for by the State amid to thatwe may aidd another 350 per cent. repre-sentinug those who would lose their em-ploviiemit but who to-dav ar e engaged inlproviding the wlierewvithal to enable themen onl the mines to hle mintaimed. Soto thn, 3,223 men who have been addto the list of those emiploy, ed in the golduine s, we cal incii lmude an otheri 2,000 m en.It means therefore that -there are over5,000 additional men who are oil full-t Imework at bansic rates, and that is of tre-nmendouis a dvaiitage to the State.

Hon. J1. C. Willeock: When [ said that,"lien discussing the employment question,and asked for additional assistance forthe miiin ing inrd ustry, my suggestion did notreceive much consider,,tioji.

The MTINISTER FOR MIUNES: It is(lite easy, to say that anl industry of somuch) value is deserving of encouragement.The trouble is that T have never yetknown a period in the history of the in-dustry "-liwen the :.ime thing has not been'aid. When the industry was declining,

from 1903 [o 1929, everyone said that theState should do its best to encourage theindustry to revive.

Holl. . C. Willeock: No.Thle MITNTSTES, FOR MIINES: Yes.Hon J. C. Willcock: The object of the

assistance was to keep people in employ-ment.

The MINISTER FOR MI1NES: Nowwhen wve find the industry is enjoying.Complete prosperity comnpa red wvith otherindustries, it is suggested that the Stateshoul d do even mre. The trouble is thiatthe Sta te call assist any, industry fromeither one of two son rees onil'. It can massist from loan flunds or from reveniue.If it is desired to assist from loan fundq.that means going on the open market toraise a loan, and~ we cannot do that.

i-Ion. J. C. Wilieck: You would have toprovide for the men anyhiow.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: I do notwish to argue that point ant this stage. Thefact remains tihat the assistance can be

tendeored on]' from those two sources.W"hilec other industries arc onl the bread linie,in 4 some are beldow it, it is not easy to

obtain revenue either in the form of directtaxat[ion or thmrough payment for servicesrenideresl. t can lie said onl behalf of the

a ngo iadmistrv that its develo ament ofrecent Years has bjeen largely without assist-mice from the Government. As a matter of

fact, we have hadl to withdraw' sonie a asist-a ne that we did furnish the industry, asthe Leader of the Opposition knows fullwvell. The burden has now fallen upon theindustrv itself to provide for its expa nsiOiiwhere lpreviouslY it was assisted fronm thegenerall rev-enue of the State. While that

ig so, it is all the more satisfactory to knowhat the outlook is qnu ite equal to what ii

wa-is a fewy months ago, and to-day is per-hops even better. The Goldein Mile hasbeen coniplete]ly revived duiring the last 12months. Hotn. imnmbers will know that fora number of years past a very definite feel-rwz existed amiong-st those iii itposition to

speak, that what was required there was anamalgaruation of interests in order to en-,able capital to be found for tile Jprovistpnof more up-to-date methods of mining and[reat[men t. It is pleasing to know that, dueto the circumnstancees I have alreadyv men-tinned, particularly the increased value lf

mi~, satislat-:orv amnlhalauationl has beenleffected between several mines at Kalg-oorllommmii addlitional capital has been found toprovide the ncmss'ar u-tp-to-date mlining"and tr-eatamenmt methods.

M1r. 'Marshall: Wiluna is the best examplein that re-ard.

The IMMSTER FOR MI1NES: I admitthat, but Wiluna is different from the con-ditions that have obtained at Kalgoorlie.A\mluua started of! with practically Pio pre0-vious mnng of any great magnitude atthat centre. It had not reached the poiteven of exhausting the oxidised ore, the treemilling ore, which wvent to a depth of only'about 100 feet. The balance of gold-pro)-ducing- ore below that level had not beentouched. But in Kalgoorlie we had gotdown to very gr-eat depths, and( iniderconditions which I do not think would heaecieptable in mntng- practice to-day. H-ow-ever, different methods have been adopted,which is very satisfactory. The falling-offinl the grade ore, together with the in-efiflet miethods; p reviously prevailing- hadmnade it, look as if we were Coming to theenid of iningil operations onl the GroldenMile, but 'with the introduction of addi-tional capital , more tip-to-date plant and]mlore extensive olperatiofls, qunite a new lifehas bieen given to thle Golden Mile, and to-day the outlook is brighter- than at an%,period dluring- the Inst 25 years.

Mr-. Patiik: That dep~endls oil fliv mini-temnnlee. of thme pr-Ceent price.

The MINISTER FOR INES: NYo.T am gl of that interjection, be-c ause it voices a feeling which aip-parently exists iii a great part of ourColinn 1ninit, inmely, that the gold-miiningiudnIlstrY is; actually living on the increasedpliie of g-old. That is not so. The industryvhias in large measure used up the increasedreutrnt on the product for the purpose ofimiproving methods of mining and the plant.with, thle reu-elt that if to-morrow we wxentbacik to a normal lpric-P of gold most of themiines onl the Golden Mile would lie inl anin finitely better position thanl thteY havebeenl inl at any time during the last 25

rasTake the Lake Vien- and Star. Pre!-sently T will Lrive figures from the Sons. ofOwalia mine. whichi in recent years "-asaqlmjost at the point or' being' scrapped.

'.%r. Mfarlmull : ThvY wem-e salv-aging it.

The MINISTER FoRl MINES: Yes,but the member for liannans, as -Ministerfor Mlines, to his very great Credit went totheir assistance by providing sufficientfunds to enable themi to do additional de-velopaicutal work, with the result that to-day die mnine has ahead oA it manY Yvear ol.life onl a profitable basis.

Hon. J. C. Wilock: l know it gave themember for HaiinnS a hevadachie trying tofinid the miotev for them.

The MINISTER FOR -Al'tNES: I do notknow of arirthing- which has been betterworth while. Any assistance onl a scale suc:has that must give the person providing ita headache, because it involves tremndousrisk, If VOtL lend a n-an a pound when youhave only 10s., you have occasion to worryif hie fails to pay hack that pound. When[he menmber for Hannans lent themn thatCi>0000, hie miust hav-e had a headache, andif they had not been able to repay tile loanthat- headache would have c-ontinuied andCVnn become accentuated. The Lake Vie*.,10i Star is Probably the hest exampllle ofwhat ],as been dlone mid cant be done in tilerevival of the indtustry. Those who kniowthe istory of the industry on the GoldenMtile will know that for a iiumnber of yearsthat- inine had a '-cr prosperous career.Thi- Lake V~iew at any time produced a tonof gold Per mon01th.

Hl. S. W,. Minsie Ye.s, for six months .The INISTER FOiR 'MiNES: Ye,; six

nmontlhs onl end. But apart from the factthat it was a wonderful ndvertisemi'int forthe State and for the amine, I dof not k-nowthat it was inl the hest inlterests, of the Stamteini the long run. for theY worlked out a veryrich chute, leaving a manss or lower grradeore, perhaps never to be recoavered. TheHforseshoe, the Cinmifers deep lead anl the1-Tnnans Star had veryv thequered careers,sometimes producing11 profitably anod ttother times at a loss. But with tutu amialga-]nation of all those leases, the introductionLOf Up-to-date treatment Plant enabled themlto treat a g-ren ter tonynge per month andalthough the turnover onl a tonnage basiswas sinall. yet it meant a considerable pro-fit onl the yeam-'s wom-ing. The improvedplanlt pi-ovides for increased treatment tothe extent or' 30,000 tonls per mouth, and tie-raIngemients have been miade which will allowvthemen to reachi 40,00A tons per month. Thatwas a lbig' venture, because they were notperfectly c-ertain abouit the treatment

[3 No%'F-.%mEv, 1932,]

11570 f AS SEM13IY.]

method, Tt is true they had Wiluria toguide then$, brait there was at difference iiithe tyvpes of ore in the two places whichmight have led to trouble. Actually thereis at dili'erenee in the type of ore in variouspart'c of the Golden Mile, and while onetype is amenable to treatment in one mine,is act in another. 1-owever, the aniakgamatedleases have hlad a very satisfactory run, andhave. been able to reduce their ruining rindtreatment c-osts. WVlafle I do not desire to dis-p)arag-e any of our mining authorities, Ivenlture to san' tiha t tlae in]troduetion of someniew blood would materially serve to intro-du1ce new Inlethlaoa of mng.After nil, ifthe mnining methods are wrong. you call dowhid l you will in your treatment, hurt it willinot. get a conitiniiaince of profitable niroperaitiuns, The first essential is mining.After that generally it is possible to ilu-pr)ove your treatment methods and so in-crease the tonnage output ras to enrable asmall profit per tonl to becomle a hatndsomecprofit in tihe course of the year.

F-Inn. J, C. Willcoek: The methods ema-plIoyedl in tire old days were then equal toperhaps the best in the world.

,file -MINISTER FOR MINES : That istrue. At that period in the history of gold-mining in Western Australia it might havebpeuenlaimed that we were as. far Advancedinl methods and treatirent as% was any othergold-miniirg centre arrxwhiere in the world.Tt has often becen. said that in British in-diastry' the cr-s used to be "WVhat was goodenlough11 for grandfather is good enough forrne/' ari Ias afraid we indulged that viewin thi-s State. Still the awakening c.11ne,0hind(1 it compelled thost- controlling our bigmines in Kalgoorie to look around for- newideas, which have since beenl initrodiuiced ona very satisfactoryv basis. And wvhile theyhave mande great pacrrPs iii point of treat-mernt, they have also made gratifying de-velolanit underg-round. At the 3,300 ft,level the Chaffers dec11 lead is opening uipwell, with every inictation of values eon-tinutirrg at a. greater depth. That is one ofthle most satisfactory developments inl re-cent years onl tire Golden Mtile, that discov-em'yv of a fairly, higirnade ore at a greaterdepth thrum ever our predecessors dreamedof'. So it looks as if there is still air an-limited life ahead of us in the productionof gold ill Ka!(rootlic. The power plantis right ill) to dlate, and tire onlyfeature that depres ses mne is the tacttthat ir order to operate that plant we hav-e

to rise anl imp1 orted fuel. I am1 inclinled In)believe they could easily clicige over fromoil coiisuanptioai to proilur-er gas power. Onthe Lake 'View and Star threy hanve four1,J00 h.p. Diesel engines directly connectedwith the generators, and three 401) lI.p. Dicselengines directly connected with the air cona-prsos It is ai. very up-to-date plant witha total ca pacity of 5,6001 h-p. rand is at creditalike to those whro dlesigared it and tlhosewho are operating it.

I'on. .1. 0, Willeoek: Wh'lat aburt pralver-ised coeal for fulel?

Thtre MIINISTE'UIR FOI INES. I do nottlriink you can use pu Iverised coal in a1)eisal enigine. Of' Course it canl be uscd forthe generation of steam, but that Iras notbeen tire trouble. I doubt if lpulverised coalcould prouice steamn cheaper thanar thley havebeen doing hi' the rise of firewood. Buitthey Cain much lmore satisfactorily produceelectricity with this type of eng-ine tha n witirtlre ordinar 'y type of steam engine. Andthere are other difficulties, such as waterarud so oil, and so after careful considerationthey have changed ox-er to oil furl, whichmeans importation.

Ron. S. W. 'Mausie:. Let us hrope thatpretty soonl we too shrill get oil.

The 11INISTER FORl.1MINES: We :arevery much nearer to that thani we were 10years ago, and I l]0l)C tlhat ill the near futarreoil may bre. folund withinl ourl Own borders,I land an1 opportunmity ai fortnight ago to goout over the goldfields firiwood supply lineover which during the laist 30 yearms tire'han-c carried more I Ianr 7,0010,000 toils offirewood, from ai place whicht most peopleimiragirie to be a dlesert. To-day they a reoibtainilng that wood in at locrality 137 milesfrom Kalgoorlie. Whent at claim was madefor at reduction in tire tariff o n fuel. oil,it was said that it w-as 'lr essential corn-moditv for thie pr-oductioii of power ini Krll-goorlie, and would become still more iru-portaint because the supplies of firewoodwere rapidly heconjinig depleted. . Watsastonished when .1 heard that, and f askedtire Forests lDepanrtment to muake A suirveyto see whether we w-cre approaching thatstage. The department aissured ine thatwith what mnight be temmed natural refores-tatiort there would appear to he manyscores of years- of 5111plics. still ahecad of uswhich could ibe economically obtained, andthait with proper methods, applied to out,

1.570

[3 -NO%EIMER, 19)32.1 7

forests, there would be at least 250 year.,'suppjly aliead of uts, and probabli- li thatlittne we tcould consider. whether thle Rnmingindustry would continue ainy longer. As themember for Collie sai d when reeently' I told.himn of this, since that wvill see uts a11] outwe tire i10t very much toncerned. The goldmnhli industry has been valualble, lot onlyliv reason of tile prodiuction (if g'old, batalso lv 'Vtlie produet ion or Ii rewoofi at therate ol 1,000 toins per day%. thuns constituting,a %crv sa usfacitory sabsidiary iniduistrv.'fle iIltrodliclioi o4 oil as a fuel has had;,the effect ofi ,educing the otput of Ihireoodltol 700 tonts lier day' , and LI fortutia klY thedifference mealns a reduction inl the numerIII

ot meii eiupli ved and t lo's it' the cinula-tioii of thle wages theY would have rcei ved.I say, therefore, that it is one regrettablefea ture of the inRItroduct ion of what istermed more up-to-date planit. I thiink it(.al bile shiowni that prioduer gas, as used 1)i'vthe Solis of Gwalia mine, can easilyv outdooil. That mine is work iiiw, on a very sat-is factory basis. The cost of produ~ction,1 believe, is down to that of the L~ake Viewanti Star.

110ll. S. W. 'Munsie: Their cost of pro-duction is lower. They are producingelectric pow'er cheaper than it is producedal iKalgoorlie with at Diesel engine.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: The ob-ject of introducing- the plant was to gene-rate eleetrieitr. because that is the cheap-est, easiest handled and most convenientwary of providing all the power required,even that required underg' round. For anumber of years one of the most costlyOperations onl the Golden Mile, particiu-lar1 Y on the Lake Vijew aind Star iine,w-as that of hailing "-ater from the mnine,but with thhb use of electricity' and highpressure pumps the water can lie bailedwithout inoyen ience. In fact, onehardly knows that the pumping is goi .ngon). The only cost is the slighit amountfor attention and that of producing theelectricity' . If it is possible to use a local-nommodity. which producee gm,, is, anid getthe same results in power and at lesscost, it would be infinitel 'y ]letter, if itwere p~racticable, to change over from tileuse of all imported commodity such asoil, at any- rate until we call produce oilin the State.

Mr. Marshall: They could not chaneover.

The MINISTER £0OR MINES: I amadvised that the type of Diesel enginebeing used is built in such a way that itr-ail use crude oil or gas. Whether itWu-ld h be possibile to make thle change-over,.1. do not k 1,w. II oweve r, I moentionthle matter of d isplanced ijej as one of thesad features. rte use of the 200 tons ofivi ad pe~r day would Rmean tile emnploymientof 150 add itional Ifell, al Rd the 150 Illelitoge ther wvit h others requ ired to sulpplytheir needs would meani thle einploymientato-ether of a a extr'a 500 RIeni.

fLon. .1. C. Willeock: A ad additionalrail way meii wonuld be requ ired int trains-port emoniuuodi ties for their needls.

Thv 'MEIiSTER? FOR MIXES: Yes,.The underground operations at the LakeView anti Star have been very extensive.During the last 12 months 17.000 feet ofdevelopment work has been coinpleted.Better v-entilation has been provided at( lie lower lev-els, a ad the ma in hiaul ageways have been connected to provide forelectriq% traction. Instead of at manl pisii-ing a half-ton track, thle traicks, ar ic owdrawn by electric power to the shaft andthence hraled to the surface, and thiswork is being done at much less cost thanlprevioul 'lv. Without i ntroducinig in to thedebate sounethinug foreigni to it. I shouldlike to say in passing that this typc ofmacehi nerY is all to thle gond. Where mach-liter'- can be used in that wvay, it doesnot enause the displacemnent of labour-, ex-cept that it involves some men changingCroma one avenue of employment to an-other. As the cost or production per tonis reduced, additional ore bodies canl bemine(] that wyould not have been ruinedhad the costs remained high. Consequentlylthle Rnome anmount of employmien t is arforded.

Mr. Mafrshall: It mocans cheaper min-in".

The MINISTER FOil MINES: It is alla question of bringing ore of lower valueinto profitable workine and extraetinztold fromi ore that wvould be unparaleotherwvise. In eonneetine the m hall]-ace Was'-s, thle Iliilie plrovided three drivesextending f'rom, the T~Ivanoe to Chaffers.a distance of 2.600 feet. in order to affordeasier approach to ore bodies at differentpoints.

1571

*1572 J[ASSE_ \1l31Y.j

lon. S. W. Munsie: Those drives are '7,000 tonls p3ci nioitli. It is a credit to All.more like railway tunnels.

The M1INISTER, FOR MINES: Yes,they are really wonderful as comparedwith the drives in the mines as we knewthem 20 years ago. Speaking of the out-look, this work has considerably extendedthe life of the Lake View and Star and theposition is more hopeful than ever beforein the Ihistory of the mine . Anotherpoinit is that the success there achieved iii-spires, glea t hopei for thle baja ae- of theGolIdea Mfile, especially \ when we realise thatat 3.000 feet thle possibilities are as greatats eve]. \er ,v little wvork< ias been (lone le-low a couple of thouisand feet in most ofthe old nines on the G-oldeni Mile: I wvishto menation the Boulder Perseverance mine,beea nse a1 different method of treatment haslbeen introduced there. The present mnali-ger, Mr. lBlaekett, is a metallurgist of highstanding and he believes, that the bromo-cyvanide mnethod is mnore satisfactory for theore in that mine. He hadl anl aiphill fightbepfore hie was able to induce the companyto agree to introduce the plant, because itmeant the ouitlay of a lnl'ge stril of money.Eventully thle conipanlY agreed andhanded over [lie mine to .M-. Blackett wvith[ lie right to provide a treatment plant onlthe new h rono-~a' vaide s 'ystem. The plantcost £62,000, an~d that expenditure wouldhave been a serious matter from the stand-ipoint of the in le, as well as that of Mr.ilaekett, if it had p ,vived atfai lure. I gotin to touch with Mr. IBlaekett recent[ly, andlie adv ised tile tha t altIhough the mine is notworking fall en pacit 'y, the 14,000 tonstreated to the dote of the ]last survey gavean average extraction of 93 per cent. That,ibelieve, is quite as good as anyN percentage

obtai ned ont [le Golden 'Mile, anid it hasbeen achieved at at considera ble reductioncif cost as COlmpared with the 0o(1 treatnmentlia t.

H-on. S. INV. IMunsie: Theyv estimate 7s.li ] toil.

The MINIS TER FOR ]WINES : Frompresent indications it appears to he a verysatisfac-toryv method of treatment. Theplant is eoinparatively' small. The whole ofit could almost be put in the old engine room.If anyone wanted to see a heap) of Junk, heouight to view the old plant onl the Perse-veranee. Tt covets almost the whole of thnelease and one could almost get lost in thematze. The new plant has a capacity of

lBlaekett, and I hope it will be beneficial tothe production of gold on that inni.lUndero-round, there has been very satisfac-tor~ ivdevelmpmen(t At 88 feet below the1,101) feet level, a bore intersected an orehiolY that gave aii average assay of 31Lounces over a width of 11'/2 feet. That isan excellent development. Therefore wve canlsay that onl the Boulder I erseverance theoutlook is brighter thani it has. been foryea is. Perhaps most satisfactory of all istie (level opmieiit at the niorthi end. At whatI call [lie inorth eid is thle Paringa mine."'le Pt iingal is situa ted in proximity to thelouwni H-ill ndt other fanmeus mines that

h ave produe] 28,000,0011 tolls of ore yi eld1-ing 18,000,1100 ounces of goild of a valueof £72,000,000. I~n recent years that endof thle Goldein Mile has been regarded asabouit closed down.

flomi. S. W. Munsic: Almost extinct.

Thie -MINISTER FOR MINES: ]Front191.0 to 1916 the i'arimiga company's lease,worked oilita tribute, yielded 43,489 tonis ofore valued at £70,519. During tho presenitconipa nv's developmnt w~ork a d iscovery ifore was made at the 100 feet level ;aidIdriven miorth for 323 feet, disclosing oie ilj)

to 14 feet in width carrying high valuesrfhe minin shaft has been sunk to a depithof 1,300 feet and tile mnie is equipped withwinid ing allad hoisting machinery and allaccessorties. The directors of thle coiiilin vcolitempila te (lidliond( drilling at a cost ofseveralI thousand pounds, to make a thor-ough survey of the oie bodies at depth.Oii1lv last week they asked the Governmenit.to alIlow the Giovenmient Geologist, or noffice,. of his (departiienit, to confer with theattorney of- the compan~y to fix the sites for[le bores in order that the best possible re-suilts inighlt he obtained. It is to the creditof the department that the conmpaniy shouldhave asked for the assistance and advice ofout, officers. It is evidence thlat they apipre-ciate the services of the officials. I was ad-vised by Professor Woolniough that we havein the Mfines Department of Western Ails-tralia, oil the ilineralogicil side, men prob-ably as good as, if not better than can befound in any hart of Australia, and perhapsiln any' part of the world.

Hon. S. lW. -Munsie: A id do not forgetthat a good deal of thle credit for the dis-coveries in the Sons of Gwalia is due to theofficers of the department.

[3 NOVEMBER, 19.32.] 1573

The NISTER FOR 'MiNTS: Yes,that is all to the credit of the officers, I'n-fortunately, at thle moment, they have toaccept for: their more than usually valuableservice- at reduction in the same ratioats other officials. Al thoughi thr indus,-try i" enj .oying prosperity, the officersof the( department, even those Onl thlepoldlields, are not retelving- as much as theywould he entitled to have under dlifferenftvoniditicals. Hfowever, they are not comn-lplaili ng. aend they are doing their workwel!. The Broken Hi!ll Proprietary' Companfyalso asked for the services of one of our-officers. and he has beeni with them eversince they started operations here. A!! thatis evidence that the officers of the depart-rnent are satisfactor 'y. The 1'aringa lodles

an ractivall lv uindteveloped, except at shal -low depths. There is good reason, to hopethat another large gold] producer is now inlthle making at Kalgoorlie, and that manyother mines will gain a prolong' ationl or lifethrourb the introduction of modern treatinent plants, fresh discoveries, increase-irice of * gold and the general revival in gold

mining' interests. It ina '- be possible thatfurther operations in the Patrina mine atdlepth will enable the company to trace thecontinuance further north of thle lode whichhiis produced gold to such tremendous value.Let ius now proceed further north to theSo15 of Gwalia mine, to which I previouislyreferred liriefly' . I have told thle Committeewhat arose out of the assistance renderedIlite mine 1)'y my p~redecessor in offie. Dlur-ing thle le mouths Janunr 'v to September,122, the mine has produced slid treated

107.822 tons of ore for a recovery of goldof standard value of £l3S.605. This recov-ery' includes a small amount of gold fromthe re-treatment of 6,888 tons of sand. Thleold sand ,limii) was exhausted in April, sothere will be, no further re-treatmlent. Ex-change and goild premiums during ther.eriod aninted to £66,704. The proifit onl

Capial xpeditue acoutedfor £22,672.lcavinwr a net profit for tile il e montLbs offC56,606. The total cost of maining andtreatment operation, wats £E126,010 equal to2.1s. 4.53d. per ton of ore milled. That isfairly .atisfactor. and] is evidence of care-Fij I nininir and ca reful treatment.

Halon. K. W. Mfunsie: It shlows Very effi-cient imanagenient, seeing that the mine is

'-'ill

200 miles north of Kallgoo:ricit and has toibear the cost of extra railway* freights, etc.

Tile 3MSTER FOR MINES: Yes. Iti, pleasing to note that, during the period.the company' have continued to pursue anlactive prograninie of undergrou nd develop -ment work in addition to equi pping theplant and miavhiner 'y with necessary' addilions. The eompany' have reduced the,,montii or thle Government loan consider-aly . As a matter of fact, the oclt moneythe Giovernment have to assist the i ndustrvis that which is being repa id ),, the SonA.of Gwal is in reduction of the adivane madebyv miv predecessor. The repairs front theTns;.cctor of 2Eilics indicate that ventilatouand morking, conditions iiiileriaiid arethoroughly satisfactory. Attention has beeaipaid tf, those miatters as wvell. III !'asing,may I say' that uinder MrIt. Fd. guist, the coinl-panly have b~een able to establish very defi-nitelv thu t producer gas Canl 'e most econl-omieall~' used in thle production of clee-trici t.N. T wish to make reference to Willu-because all eyes are on Wiluam. In recent'Cars we have hadl opinions from all classesof people resairdin~w the possibilities ofMilitia. A huge suim of money was folundto develop that belt of country, and at theoutset there was somle criticism because ofthe time that elapsed - before the comnpanyaetmmlll commenced operations. It wvaseven suggested that tile company were de-I'heratclv- delayingf the comnmencement ofeperations; because they had no faith in the

ventre. It ws sid they' thought thatsooner or later- it would lbreak dowvn, and itwvas alleged that a number of shareholderswvere unloading onl a satisfacetory marketbecause they wmere not prepared to hang onuntil the treatment of the ore was started,lest the same trouble as was previously' ex-perienced recurred. Apart from delayi thatwvas only' to he expected from the@ initiationof such biL, operations as the cornpanyundertook, nmistake, could easily b-mi'ade. The comnpany- had( nothing toeluide them. The type of ore thatthe comnpany hia-I toi treat was differentfrom any' of which we had had exp~erienice.The result was that adjustments had to hemade. The adjustments are being made,.and it call now be stated definitelv thatWiluam will remain for many' years a high-I satisfactory producer of gold and em-lalyer of labour. Onl these Estimates I do

17-1[ASSEMTBLY.]

not propose to make any referStan bI atIteries, which will hie de~dier the Fiead ig~ of S;i to euterpagain,' however,' we havet (Icfiniof increased activity byv Smal IIated in the main by praspettoyear 19:30-31, as indeved or. Ina!years, Western Australia cxportthlead of population than ally oS.tates. For that year We stenexliortedl to the extelnt of C37?pioputlatioii, tile nedxt liearest SQueensland with £18 per head,molder- of the States tail im', Ofdowin to £ IO per head. At prtically the whole of our sgOld prexported. 'raking. thle value 0ouitp)lt at £2,168,771 means that%i worth of gold per head was cx1this State. On the figures for Imionths of this yeai. hie gold cxproximately £5 per head of popthle half-year. WVithi a continuiasame activity in tile' Indlustr-y,should doubile itself l)iv thle endher. All these things arc evidhtremendous value of gold tin nliAustralia. T wvisht to explain orlpearing onl these Estimates, inpenditure for last year underAdvanlce. T refer to the nppaithe exhibition of the Glolden I'aHon. members may assume.figures. that there has been a lnsview does not put the matter en,Auditor (leicial's repoit showstion more clearly. Particularsfound onl pagt 6 of that repoEstimates a loss of £582 7s. 2d.the rcsulIt of the exhibition ofThis, however, is inislea dinz. thetion being ats follows-

lir.Puirchiase of iiggetLoss oii exhibition-

Cr.Pro!Ceds of sale

Less5 expenises

Local cha ridies .

En b-run charities --

Total Profit

£ s . d1.,.4S 4 2

5'li 7 2

2 13 7167 A "

2)73

Vendo --*t. 5,43 4 2Tr-avelliiig :1 ud other

expenses 660Ol' 14 4

ence to thealt with j11n-rises. 'rherete evidencenines Ope-rs. In thlejiv previous

more pel-fits, sister

ni Australia)er he ad if'titlec licingand the re-I from~ £17eseaut lime.-olutiiin is

Fiont, these Figures ] argue that thle pun-chose anil exhibition of thle nugget havebieen highlY satisfactory transactions. Ileave tine Estimates at that, inl the beliefthat hon. members will realise that the

Anes Department did its work as well lastyear as it has done that work during ina s-years, notwithstanding ani enormous develop-_11100t in iiing activity genera lly, which -sui ted in, greatly i icreased demands onl theofficials. They are entitled to receive that

o rdi whchis due to them because of thework they, have performed, and because ofthne entirely' satisfactory lmnner in whichtheY ha ye p~erfomed it.

f thle 1931 MR. MARSHALL (Murchison) f5.38]:inl etleet £5 At thel out set 1 tender toy conigra tulatioiislotted from to the officers of the 'Mines D~epartiieiit Onihie fir-st six their work. I have invariably found thosepo rt is A p- offi cers most 01)1ig-ing, ettiv-ie t atnd cuth uls-'lla tion for instic. As representative of at iiintg '-oii-

'lee Of thle tituene- 'I appreciate their services mosthis amounllt highly. They) consistently endeavour to Cr~s-of Dccciii- ter and develop the gold mining, industry-nee of the T restrict my remnarks to gold ats being thleto Western only mineral found il n my electoi'ate. Per-

ICitem ap1ITf 'x mineral could lie mnined iii large quaiitities,

ent loss oi hut unfortnuttelY its value has deelined.Zle no,"get It ispleasing to hie able to say that the goldfrom temining, industry is particularly prosperon>"

-:btta hiist h n'eased price obtainable for'reetly. The the product, as the Mfinister has stated.

thle' poi There has been a cncentrationl Of effortare to lie Onl gold linlilg to furnish a i'cilcmn .. ut'f~

rt. TO the IninY iniable to obtain o~thecr employmnent,is shown as bv reason or' thle deprtession. A pait friomthle nulgg-et- the itie oii thle wages sheets of the '-a 'insactual Po0i- miines produciiig gold, there is, an astound-

ing number of murn enogaged in the searchC s. (I - for thle pr ecio us inch,]I. [it travel finl"

through lay electorate I hav'e been aston-ished to filid tun formierl. etilliovyed inl the

[6.647 13 1 city settia--, out into the wilderness to pro-11,024 11 4 vide theniselvyes \%ith) thle wherewithal Of life

-2 by 9 i mnis of' prospeiti ng. Sonic hav s-c oiie-623 9 vwell1. Others mnerelY eke out a ii existence,

hut Fortune iiiav sni Ititle]' theni at any-

2,51 inuit 11P and iili i-ewarid then em ll the Iir2.0 7 3 toil and( sacriifices. T protest aga inrst thet

E903a a 0 discontinuance of the gold bonuts after- itsbeing paid for one year. On this subjectI disagree with tile -Minister for- Mfines. Iam convinced that numerous persons e-nllv

6.099 IS 6 here from thle Eastern States, attracede by

1574

[3 -No-MBKS, 1032.]

the increaaed activity of jnl11 big onl theGolden Mile and tin the other alur'ifer'OUSbelts of Western Australia, Having- arrivedlien'. thley set themselves to secure emplloy-int, and( were successful. Thus Westernt

Australia has relieved Wiier States of thleobligzation to pirov'ide these iiew arrvals~ withcit her sustenance or worki. The Coiainon-wealth Governrment ha ve also been relieveiliii thiit respect, which fact renders the dis,-euiitinouilee of, the gold bonuls an art ofIpevuliar iiirnl ess. Al Imost ieed less tos-wI, . I havye ito prejudice agntinlst tlie A us-traiainrs ipl die Easterii States: hut for ever;Eastern AusatralIian who Obta illsemiicmerit here, a Western A iistralian hins tosuffer, and prcobably heroies a Charge onIthre State Goovernment, thus lading to thellmrge amiuint that has toP be found by WYest-prri Aist raiain tax pavers for rinemplo-y-iient relief. It is remarkable flowv influenceeran lie broughlt to hear- upon the FedleralIGovernmeiit to grant bonuses and bountieson all kinds of products, necessitatinig theemployment of special agents to searchl outmarkets all over the world. Because West-ern Australia has done remarkably well inlthe matter of gold production, arid becauseilicre is ain advantage in the exchange, theFederal Government ii itlmdraw the goldbonni. Other homiused industries, however,derive aidvantage fromt the exchange. Ex-i-deItldv thle Federal (loveinruenclt canlnot re-sist [ lie pressure of Easterm States repre-seiitmtives, although Western Australiani re-presentatives fail to) seure recognition ofour- just claimsi. Tlhousainds of prospectorsproducing gold are iiit produinrg it profit-ably now, and to the extent that the honuswould have benefited theim Western A1astr-Tnt i. penlilised Without prospecrtors tilegocld industry must tome to aiieuiorTht- prospector never- knows what is be ,yondthe pick's poiiit, an id tlii- is ttlwt~s iciraged to continue. However, the withdrawalof thle gold honus hoc. discouragedl piotace-ingL in general, aimd fron tihat aspect espec-iaillyv I eonillaini of' the Federal Governnwrit'sat-tioni. Again, the golid bousi, vold have! bcellof iiminense value to the l)rusPeetors, to sayirothinur of the miaterial value it would havebeen to the mines; actually producingc gold.To-cla y prospecting- for gold is very differenttrain what it wa-is in the early days, wheiimost of thie discoveries were first mnade inl thle

way of alluvial gold. 'rte lprospectors werethen running over the surface and it was fortile first time, I uppilose, in the history ofthe State, that white men had trodden thoseareas. It was only to he expected that bigiquanitities or' alluvial gold would be found.Those finds materially assistp'd to pay ex-petsies, and to advertke the possibilities Ofg-old being found iii greater qjuantities iii theState. '['liat is lnt the position to-day:v it isonY lv rare ous-aAoiis that alluvial gold isnow%% do'coverrul inl .11imy quanitities, Prospect-ing mnust lbe conduceted, now tili a morescientific basis and here wve are severelyhanidica pped in the sense that we have notmen experieiieed scientifically to carry onl thework. To tire credit (of the prospectors, how-ever, wve c*an say 'that most of tlieii areWilling, SVIC -oierifliiit and most clheieiit. Itthe gold bonus hail been continued,' reducedas it was, thle 1nameiit of it would have bleemiof great assistance to those men fortunateenough to find gold in small quantities. Ourvoice of protest, however, is like one cynin the wilderness: rte Federal Governmenthave decided aieainst us- and therefore it isfor. tile State to d1o thle best it cl to? fosterprospecting and keep the industry actively'moving. There werle quite quite a numberof pessiuikistsi whenl Willuna wvas livingequipJpedl with its plaint and when extensiveex lwriitieiital opera tionis were being c-on-ducted at tint iie. It is remartikable whant agreat deal of iiiforutation call be obtained re-ga cmlinmg at gold inime froii till indivridad whomhavs little or no k-nvwledge at all about goldtuining. If I. wanted to know anything about0operationis at WilIuna I bhad no difficulty inlearning wvhat was iaking place fromni some-one who periaps had never seen a gold mnirein his life. Snecl intorination was alwaysavailable, not onl till, particular goldfielditself, but in the streets of Perth. I had kepta watchiful e ve onl the coonstnietiomi of theplant at Wilumia arid I was imost interestedin it, naturally. I was also interested iii thedevelopmnent that was- taking- place under-,rrottnd, and. I mtissed 110 opportunity ofkeeplir moyselft anl fait wvith what was taking-place onm all the oucasions of my. visilis toMinnma. But iii Peithi [ was alwayvs told

tbhit Wviluna vas gill igto be -a huge whiteelephiant, and this camne from those who 100-tessed to know 211nIOl aou it. I. would counselthos-e people to remtain silent and not to throw-a, (1Xiiipiir on di-velopmniit work that mightbe tsikinru lafce in our gohdmuiiiig cenitres.Tuvariably this infoiimation caie froni pea-

[ASSEMBLY.)

ple wvhose exp~eriene of mining I do notsuppose extendled be 'yond the subsoil of theirgardens. .1 am more than pleased with thedevelopments that have actually taken jplaceat Wiluna, and also that the northern endof that belt of country will be developed. Ifdevelopment takes place onl right lines, thewhole of that arrea wvill prove a wonderfulasset to the State. There are between 650and 700 names onl the pa 'y sheet at Wiluna,and to gauge the actual ))opuilation of thetown one has only to multi ply the number ofpaidl employees by'A four or five and you getthe total. The iman underground generallycarries four or five other men. women andchildren. So that hut for the Wi tunia goldmine there would have been to-day another1,500 or 2,000 people onl the dole. I wasver ,v plessed on the occasion of my last visitto notice the prosperity' that prevails in thattown andl to learna there was a possibility' ofits inecasing. It is the saine wvith Meceka-tharna and other (districts in niy electorate.The time is rapidly approaching when theBig Bell, the Alararoa at RIeidy, 's, and othermines wvill be activelY workinlg. I believeevery effort is beiin made by those interested

the &various leases to raise the capital thatwill permit of their being eqipptled wvithmodern machinery. Notwvithsta ndi ng tilepriosperity that is attending the goldini ingindustry, 1 tell the Mlin~stcr that there arecertain iattei.s lie siaould dleal with immiedi-ately, . 'The litincipid one is the granting]rof big resevation ,. I in not hlo,tilto the g raniting of extensive areas pro-vided that 'none' canl he found fortheir development wvitjhin a reasonable timie.Theie seems to be a desire, howvever, on thepart of certain individuals to acquire verylarge auriferous areas and hold them out ofactivity and in flint wvay prevent othersfrom developing. The present system ofgrantiing these reservations is wrong. TheMinister has power not to agree to grantcoiessiolns, bilt Uifortunately the outsidewvorld are not aware of the granting of theconcessions. An individual will approachthe Minister, apllPy for anl area and con-vince the Mtinister it is necessary that itshouild be granted to him. The Ministergiants it. Prospectors have no knowledgeof what has taken place, and if they go on~any particular reservation and start prospectin,&, the holder maly come along and say,"You are on my' reserve: get off." It isaistonishing that such a thing could ha ppen.Instead of grantingo the reservations ilenit-

lh-I have no desire to hea offensive whenI use that word-and unknown to the restof the community or the district, the applica-tions could be made to the warden, and ifthe warden was satisfied that it should begranted, lie could agree to the request. Thelocal people would then be aware of whatwas taksing place, and if they desired to ob-ject, they could do so. -Moreover, the war.den would have a better idea than the Mlii-ister of the value of the area applied for,and it would be easier for him to determinewhether the concession should or should notbe granted. For instance, the reservationat Quinn's involves an area of 5,000 acres.That is an enormous area for one personto hold in a small place like Quinn's. Theprospector is excluded from entering anypai-t of that territory: neither is he able tosay' where the reservation stairts or wvhereit finishes. Consequently he is nonplussed.He is not even in a position to appiY forthe forfeiture of the area or any part of itbecause of non-compliance with thle coven-ants of the r-eservation.

The Minister for Mtines: MNany' of thoseareas have been abandoned for years.

Mr. MARSHALL: Take the district ofNannine. Tsuppose the whole of it has

been prosp)ected b)y thouisands of men. Firstthey, found a lot of alluvial gold. Thea they,left and other men came and pi-ospeetedIland they in turn left. That has beern goinzonl for the last 2.5 or 30 y ears. The Mfinis-ter granted the license, and when old Gus-tafsen and( others who hind previously' beenprosqpcctiiig there returned to the island tohave a look at it, they were astonished tofind that a reserv-ation hiad been granted andthey could] not touch it. The lessee hasdone nothing ait all, Yet he was able to ex-elude those men fronm further prospectingThat app1lies tihroughout the goldfields.Men leave a belt of country to-day but theyreturn to-morrow. The lure of gold is thecaunse of tha t. T often talk to men in thereserves and there are meii in the Old MVen'sHomale and in] thme Wooroloo Satorstiutmwhbose one desire is to 9et back to somie placewhere they worked previously-. Naturally.when thiev al, able to do it, they ga back.Whenl stintli concessions are granted. how-ever, toi men are l)-ev~nmec fromr uwok-i g.-

The Minister for M\ine,: The le,,ee is'-ais ig enpital to develop a territory thatrequire, capital, aid it catnnot be developedin miy other Away.

[3 -Novi.-%nan. 1032.]

Mr. MAIISIIAI-.L: I do not agree; it callbe developed in many other wvays. if thereis a company or anl individual who canlbrin in half a million ot money to developaln area, the lease Ahotild be granited, buit 1object to the length of Pine for which suchreservations have been granted. Take theBill Bell : the Gove'rnment suhscriberl soniemon01ey when 'Mandeisrainnil first took over rhoHig, Boll and I-ittle Bell. Alongside thoseleases, was a re.-erve granted by tile M\inesDepartment bern use, iii the process of theboring carried out by Ifandeistanim, as-sisted hr Governmient money, it was discor-ered that the deeps were out of his lease. Areservation was made something like fivemiles bhr three miles onl the eastern side fthme lease. All those, leases plus the reser-vation hare been held up for three 3-ears touly knowledge, and hare not been touched.

'rle 3linister for Minesi: l'raviounsl v they'were touched, and no0 good could he donewith them. The 0Ol13v method of working,the Big Bell is that adopted at Wilunn,and no prospector canl do that.

Mr. 'MARSHALL: On that the 'Ministerand I hare always disagreed. Take WVil-unit: From the irsi we disagreed on what

hie Was doing thepre, and L still argue thathad the leases at Wiluna been forfeitedwhen their forfeiture was sought, Wiluinawould have been operating long before itstarted.

'Fhe -Minister for 'Mille.: Not at all.Mr. 1MRSHALL: I shall always hold

Myi own op1inion Onl tha't. Itf tile Minlister scontention is right,' lie implies that theonly% individual who knew the value ofthose lease, was thle then lesser-.

Tbe' MinistIer for 31 ines : It wag;s a )t oquestion of the value of (the leases. Ever'-body knew that no one could treat theore below the oxidisedi zone at that time.

Mr. MAN., RSIJ .\, L There were miningnimen in Kalg-oorlie at the time who enl-flea inured to get thos;e leases onl several01meal iou-s with the idea of raising moneyto work them. but the 'y weje preventedfioni doing -o lmeflnse the then le-seewanted the lion'4 -hire. Hle wvanted asnunch mtoney vfor the leases ais was neces-'arvj to equip and dlevelop themi. and men

who knewv the district wvould not pay theprice.

The Minister for Mlines: You know astwell as, T do that - dffvrent svsteiu. oftre-iting time ore below the oxidised zone

were tried, and every one failed. 'Underone systen. everything but the gold wasrecovered.

Mr. MAIRSHALL: I know the historyof Wilunia.

The Minister tar Mines: So do 1.Mir. M1ARSHA-LL: Although. the thMen

lessee floated the Wiluna leases, the firstmam to go there on behalf of the comn-palnY that hod taken Over the lease's wasan experienced inine muaniager of Kalgoor-lie! who years before had attempted Un-sucecessfully to get the leases, le did allthe work, The lessee did nothing. Thelessee's experience was never availed ofto plan the development of the Wilanamine. He secured a very handsome prizeand caime out of it very well financially.

The Minister for M.\ines: The State cameoit of it well, aind that is tile main point.

MTr. 'MARSHALL: The State would havereaped thie henefit 10 years ago if theleases had not been held up.

The M1inister for M-\ines: That is anassertion that can he disproved.

Mr. MARSHALl4,: It is not an asser-tion. Let me return to the Big Bell mine.It is of no use the Minister advancing theargunien I that there is only one man whois able to raise money to develop thoseleases.

Mr. Angelo: Is hie doing anything now?Mr. MARSHALL: No,The 'Minister for M.\ines: Of course he

is.Mr. MARSHALL,: Two and half or

three 3-ears ago, after having finishedwith the IGovernment ),orinig, the lesseewenlt to Fnghand and promised the themiMinister for Mines (lon. S, W. _Munsielthat lie would he hack with half aI millionof money in practiecally' no tinie. Sincelie left, Wiluna has been developed;: sincelie left the interest ragte for money' hasfallen from 5 or 6 per -emit to 2 -ier4,ent. Hie has hoeen in Envrland the wholeof thant time--

Trhe minister for M\ine-: Wiluna, gotthe money before him.

Mr. -MARSHIALL: But a lot of moneyha- been brought in from the Old Coun-try since then. Hle todd the then -Ministerfor _Minesv that he would he back in notime with money to ecluip and develop,thn-e eo e. That wasc nearly three yearsAgoM

15713 [AS SEMBLY.]

The Minister for Al ines : I t mustA Ia

over three years.Mr. MNARtSIALL: Assume it is onl'y

three years. The Under Secretary tor Miiitstold ine that he had received a cable croimthe lessee to the effect that money anddiamond drills for further boring onl thoseleases wvere being brought out. If therewvas Piny prospect of the lessee raisinmrmoney to develop those leases, the oppor-tunity would have occurred duringl tlielast three years. Although hie said thatdiamond drills and money were beingbrought cint to continue thme work, neitherdiamond drill inor fliey net' the lesseehas been seen in the State 5111cc. 'Tlaitgentlemani has Land a reasonably goodspin fromn the department.

The Minister for 31ies: I' do not denythat lie bais.

A.r. MARSMILL: I go further and. saylie has received too muchi eons ideni tion.

The -Minister for Mines: I1 do not think so.Mr. AIR SIIA L: The Mines ])epart-

inent would he Justified in calling- a halt tothe concessions.

The Mlinister for Mlines: We have notacted without consulting those in a positionto advise us. You talk about cheap moneyin London. It was not cheap money.

'Mr. MARISHALL: I say that money isnow c-heaper than when Ike wvent to England.

TFhe 3ifiiistcr for Mines: No;' the bankrate is lowerP hut that does not mnake mioneycheaper.

Hon. J. C. ilicock : 'There was a prohi-bition in Ragland against sending moneyout of the country.

Mr, 'MARSUCALL,: I did niot want tomention tie na11e of thle lessee.

The \I mister for Mfines: Everybodyknows to whom you are referring.

Mr, 'MAR ShALL: Having regard to 1Ftatements made by, the Minister and hyINa rdelstanII mi-

The MNinis-ter for Mlines-: Whait would bethe good of putting him out and putting isomeone who would iomt do anyv better?

Mr, MAAlt S EAr.i If that contention issouiid, we c-al htold out jio hope of the northend( of \yihtiia being developed. Only- re-cently Mr. Claude de Bernales went to Fur-land and hie feels confident that lie will getmoney to develop the north end of WilunlaThle Mlinister's argumeiit is that it is- of n10uise taking- thit leases from MAftidcltalnruhecaulse lie is in Englandnf, and maoy raise the

Iile 'uO, Mlt.] is thle only luau11 who Call raisedie mloney.

The Miniistev for Mines : I. didl not say

that. lie has mde all eWort.

M1r. MARSHALL: And ha,-s failed.The Mlinister for IV nts : l1e has not

failed.NMr. ?dARSHALL: He h'a6 failed dig-

builly to lilY tfliuid.The Minister for Mines: fTc is trying, to

raise tile nuoluevN now.Mr, MARSHTALL: 1 read ill tile paper

that two experts-Thle Minister for MHines: TI. is the same

old story that one maii h~a. somethiing andsXniehody- else wants it.

Hon. J. C. Willeock: Give him another

iMr.' 11ARISIA Ll: Tlhe Minister is notfiri ill making that statemnent; I have notin mind any luan who wvants those leases. 1.have been quite fair to tlue Minister. Anyman11 Wh'lo couild convince mne that lie had achance of iraisillg nonecy to develop anrifer-oils leases such as the Big Boll would re-eeive from me reconahle ltnue anid all1 ))o5-6ible enicour'agemnent. ]3ut thiree or fouryears is not reasonlable.

The Minister for Mlines : 1I do niot thinkLlisrt is fair. N'oll know the. conditions tha)tbiave prevailed. Tlle mnehl for Gcraldtunitold v'on that during ii fair PR)flG thatperiodi there wasaiiprohiihition aginst "zeid.iliD mlloney heie.

1Hon, L. C, Willeock:. Or anywvhere outof Eng.land,

Mr. MA-tSiTALL: f-low long- is it sincethe prllihitiOll was lifted ? Hals it begiulftedI

Honl. .1. C. Willeock' No.M1r. AlAB TALL: Then whvat took

Claude de Bernales Rlue? Ile is recognisedIas almiost fIl expert in raising money. Hellas gone FHoluik with all those reservations

an-Ild he has a lot of other concessions lee-sideLs the north end of Wiluna--wtli theidlea of' raisiniw 1011evc, anpd whant possibleI114 has lie of raising money iF w!Iat themeimbuer for Cteraldton saidl is eorrect'

H-on. J1. C. Wilieck: Hle is proliably ac nt-ig nIow so tiat, when the l)Volibilution isifte-d, hie caln get the money.

lon. -L AV. M[unsie: I honestlyv believeI lint when hie returns lie will bring- back at!(_ia4 C5,000,000 for invest meat in gpold loin-

il- ill Amqsralia.Mr. 31FAR8flAT.L:- If lie snecepis, no oe

will be more pleased than 1.

1578

[3 -NOVEMtIER, 1932.]

The 3 jui..ter tor 'Mines: You always vrn-ticise becfore tile evenit.

Mr. 31 ARIIlAiLi: That 6, not ri 'ght,The1~ Mi nnister- for 31 imes : Yon know there

a me vertain low-grade )positions that vailllbe nieveloped onlyi by massed. production a(Itint anl'1grgto of eillitl isne", 'vf1low are on ott mgi to get the are itof ntipittil otherwise?

Mr, MARIS] IALL: f argute that having-givenl Ilhe iesse reasonable time inl whichltm raisV (he HMPnY, and he ha ring- fatiled, 11hV

le S hould bev forfeited.The 3fiui.t' tot Itintls: Ie Fat1s1 not

Cotiled,Mr. -31 Ak ItMIJA LLA: Then I shall hie

pleaseti when a greater degree oif suesezs ait-tetnds his efforts. The leases have been heldl'or three or four voan t, nothing- has bieendone, amin] exemuptioni after emc iinption hbasbeen] granted.

Sitfinrj sirs per'iidn frfoo 6.15 to 7.30 p.

M1r. 311ARSIIALL: No good purpose willhie served by pursuig any futrther the sub-jert of thle exemptions that are commitinuallvgranted to lessees of tamingllt tenements. It

is a rog rinciple to continlue granitingexemiptions to individuals who, though theyuta v proisie to secure moneY, fail to do sowithin ;a 1reasonable timie. What is it thatworries thle 1tiuiister in thle mnatter of grant-ing those mnining- concssions tn the samewna 'vthat a lease is granted? I canl see noobjec-tion to anl application for at reservationgoing to the warden in the ordinary way.and the individual apply* ing for a lease:huit thle Minister can see a lot of objectionsto that procedure. Ver 'y large aieas are be-ng held ipl bectuse~ prospiectors have no

righlt to go upon themn, whereas thes' couldhe granted to other applicants in thle onlin-aly vay'.v I i puzzled to know why the-Minlister cannot ,cPp that. Hle declares thereaire inany' thitngs to prevent him fromt bring-it dow-n an-iamendment to the Act, or tonak-inc this alteration possible by regula-tion. T should like to know what troublewould etnsute if people were allowed to makeapplication to the warden for some reser-vatiotn. T do not want any interference withthle pres-ent proedure ini regard to the for-feifnre oif gold mniningr leases. but T do wants-ull Ny9fl i nent to the mining Act. I~f Iam thep lessee of a gold mining tenement orprospecting area, this may he subject to for-feiture. t imust not be forgotten that most

ot thie leases arc held inl -,mall commlunities,where thle people are nil interested inl eachother, A friendl of mtine many desire to oh-taml tile right to prosLpect Onl the lease Iam holding, or to find( capital to enable himito open it tip. He hesitates to apply forforfeitir oif the lease beenaus, he nay v vin the samte eoininititx as 1 do. all] id Onpel-sonal g-round., mnay not wish to intake theatpjlit-.ititn. Thant sort of position 1hasarisenl oni more than one occasion in myelectorate. ionwe individuail ma)1r have hadtime teittt'iitY to applly for thle forfeiture of:1 leaso coil ground thlit is n-ell within thleiiti l naw-s. Ther'u pon ilie holdeir of the

lease raises a smnatli 'rin ' y to dopipose the tip-1ilicmiotn, and fte person who Wants theCorfeituri- raises :nother smnall army ofI e ea rounid him., A miniature watrfarethereuapon ensutes, and( nothing hut abusegoes on between the two factions. I do notobject to that sort of thing. hut T do wanttile Mimister to eitody ifl the mining ActA section to provide that n inslpector ofmines mary call uponi the les:see of anyv land.that isq th subject of a gold-Illining ten'o-iment or roptigarea, to Show causewin' the lease should not hle forfeited. Ian individuai living- inl thle town did not%naut to fipply for the forfeitnre of at particular lease, bie could then inform the in-speeto'. of miines that the ptrtoiertv' was notbtell)., Wtnkod according to fltimmiing laws,

'li'inspector could thenl examuine thle icase.and it ;:fisflod that the Art was itot being(omnplied will, hie could call Upon thle lesseeto show% ensv, whty forfeiture should notenstle. Sur-ely the Minister.lv'y '(C that nocomplications would arise ifil, thA.ct wereamned i11 this direction.

Trhe Mfinister for Mines: That is no newidea,

M.%r. MARSHALL: I have never beenable to prevail upon any 'Minister for 'Minesto enitlet' seriously such an amendment.

The M1inister for Mines : What would youdo a Eteri forfeiture:. to whom would vongive the prior right?

Mr. M1ARSHFALL: I amn not concernedabout prior rights. When an inspectorcalled uponm a mnan to show cause wvhy alease szhould not hie forfeited, no prior rights~hould enter into the question. The leasewould then he open to anyone to apply' for.If no appiication was mnade. and tile holderof the lease lid tiot ('omliix with the termistinder which it wvas i-'sued to hini, it woniri

1580 [AS SEMPILY.]I

revert to the Crown, wh'lich could then in- from the source fromn which it used torite applications for it. That is the sortof thing that happens in the case of anlyother land thart is taken over from theCrown. I call see no objection to anl amend-nieat of that sort being embodied in the Act.The Minister knows that because men be.come closely associated with' eaclh other inthese small places a good deal of auriferouscountry is held] upl. A nInn maY have alease andi neglect to work it. No one wtillapply for the forfeiture because that per-son already holds the lease. He onay beasked to surrender it in favour of soimodyelse, but if he refuses no one has; the temierity to ipp1 ' for its forfeiture. In thatway the land is held lip. I have asked pre-v'ious -Ministers to give consideration to thissuggestion with a view to overcoming h

difficulty tha t arises through small comi-munities being divided into two arnui.es,and carry' ing onl a sort of miniature wary-f are. I cannot see why any' body should ob-ject to such an amendment. No lease wouldbe forfeited unless there had been a breachof the covenant. If. people haove not cornplied with the terms upon which they' tookover a lease, theY are not entitled to illd itany longer. T hope the Minister will gocarefully' into the matter. T agree that theGovernment have assisted to a small extentby' granting sustenance to those "-ho are

prep)ared to go out prospectina. The pay-mien ts have been at the rate of 10s. A week.This has been g ranted iii the same way asordinary' outdoor relief is g ranted to some-ome who dIoes nothing at all. True, theprospector gets .3s. a week more. The aillow-ance is made to him so that hie can go outprosp)ecting, mnerely for the purpose ofkeeping him engalged in following up ahealthy occupation in the hope that hie miaYdiscover something heneficial to himself andthe State. The Mlines Department has donenothing directly to assist theplrospector be-yond providing him with transport andother equipment necessary for the work.The old system of giving sustenance tojprOspeetots hans been, done a way with. Very vlittle, if aly . .ustena ncec has been grantedsince thle present Governent took office.The usual a rtrnimnu adva need hr the de-piartnient. when I have put in anl applies-tion for sustenance for prospectors. hla,been that no mioneyv is available. Iadmit that nmoney is not available

come. In reply' to a question I askedsome dlays ago as to wrhat amounthad been repaid Io the department by'gold mining companies representing loanswhich had been made to thlem1 soe, veal'sago, the iinister for ',%lines infornvi mec.in effect, tllat somethling like £48,000 badbeen repaid ill the last two years. TheGovernmient have been, in office veryv littlelonger. than that tinme, but none of t-his

nin..has yet gone to lpro~peetoi'5 in thea fsuistenan ce.

The Mfinister for Mfines: It did not comefroin thenl inl Ilie first place.

Mi. MtARSHALL: No. That 11101ev eSniIfrom) Loan fluids.

The Mlinister for 'Mines: Not mlucht of it.Mr. MTARSHALL: Quite a lot of it dlid.The Minister for 'Mines: VTery little of it

camne from that source. M1ost of it camnefrom the grant for tile development of min-ing.

M-. MARSHALL: it was not right tllattile Governmient should take money- whichwfl5 earmlarked for the gold mining indus-tr -Y, and has since been repa itl and put itinto Consolidated Revenue, when some ofit should have gone back to the piospectors.

The Minister for -Mines: It could not goin to Consolidated] Revenuie.

Mr. MARSHALL: Where has it gone?Mr. Kenneal ly: The 'Minister mu~st hav-e it.Mr'. MARSHALL: I am not accusing the

Minister' of taking it.The Mlinister for Mines: You are more

charitable than most people.Mr. 'MARSHIALL: I do not put that tip

as an ar-guimerit. The Government inave notbeen lcending mon01ey as they used 1,, do0 inYears gone by. The sun,1 of £48,000 hasnow' been repaid, but none of it has beenexpenlded on the indtistr% in my electorate.

The Minister for Mines: It hats all beenexpeinded, aild some of it in your: electorate,such as in the case of the Cite battery.

Ml'. A4RSHAL: I know th~at is incourse of construction. It would have beenai generous act onl the part of the Govern-muent if they h ad used some of this moneyto assist prospectors. If we do not fosterthe industry it will become extinct. Theresponsibilit for its piolonged life restsupon the shoulders of the prospectors. Theposition is acute. it is all very' well to arguethat because gold is bringing an enhancedprice, everyone in search of it must be doingwell.

[3 NONEiMBER, 1032.] 5;

The M1inkrter for Mines: There mustaiwavs be some people on the bread line.

iMr. MARSHALL: Yes. Whilst somepeople are in a tavoirmble position, thosewho t ire i's search of prospects w~hic l ayyield g-Old are in iso way blessed by the en-i'amneed price of that commodity. Peopleof the latter description are facing it difficultsi tuation,. Every application for sustenanceoil the p~art of pirospector's that I know ofhas been refuse-) or the %core that fundsaire not available.

Tme Minister for Mines: Last year we,penit £24,293 in sustenanace of that sort.

Mr. MARSHALL: Not anl applicationfrom 'fly electorate was favourably consul-eleet. i believc, these were one or two ex-peot! ions, in which sustemnance aind equ ip-met were given, hut in my electorate allwelt. rejected. The Minister knows the situ-as ion as well as I (10. When a, man is pros-pecting for gold: evei, though lie nifty begIetting'smr ail quantit ies of it, lie is not ell-joying himself to any great extent as aresult of tile cemnhanced value of gold, be-cause lise is, not getting enough of it.And then there are scores of In pros-pecting and getting no0 gold. .We mustenrouirage prospectini. ft is hseartening tosee in who forsmer]y 'Iseld fairly goodpositions in the city roughing it in theboush as prospectors. Th1ey find that Oc-cupation more arduous because of theirprevious pursuits. They arc the kind ofmen we want to encou rage, andI they oughtto be shown evert consideration. As tothe operations of the State batteries, Iobject to the deletion of the 253 tons freecrushing.

The liniister for Alines: That can bedis-ussed onl the vote for State batteries.

Mr. MARSHAl: I accept the Minis-ter's sukgcestion. Irepeat my aplirecia.toii (if the enithusiasm and energ-y dis-play' ed by- omeers of the Mlines Department.T note that notwithstanding, the enormousincrease in the work of the department,there has been next to no increase in thestaff. T sincerely hope that the staff atWiluna has been increased, because theofficer in charge there has to be a sortof hurian encyc vlopaedia, doing every de-

oripfion of work. That officer is an ac-anisition to the district as well as to thedep- artment. and deserves the greatestcredit for the manner in which he cag-Ties oat his duties.

MR. NULSEN (Kanowna) [7.48]: 1have spent nearly all my life On the gold.fields: in fact, 1 was the second whileboy at Wiluna. 1 grew uip onl the g-Old-Hoelds with the umenmber for 3Murchison.My electorate comprises the huge belt ofaiuriferous country from Laverton toNorsensan. The Mlinister has stressed theimportance of the gold mining industry,which has done most to keep the State,ol vent, anad which of all our- primary in-dusties is the only one that is paying.Prospectors put up with a great deal ofwork, worry and trouble, anid any assist-anee the Minister can render them iszrearly appreciated. The carting allow-ance in voguke during the Collier regimeshould lie reinstated. Although small, itenabled mrany, prospectors to carry on. Thesanie remark applies to crushing facilities.Such, allowances htelp) in the prospectingof new areas and thbat lends to discoveriesof the greatest benefit to the State as awhole. Gold hass play' ed and continues toplay a great part in the history of Wes-tern Australia. The present problem is todistriute the wealth p)rodulCcd, and tothis end gold is anl important factor. A

goddiscovery of first-rate importancewould end all our troubles straightaway.To refuse assistance to prospectors is apenny wise, pounid foolish policy. Whenvisiting Sailmton Gums recently, we hadseveral requeists for water supplies. Pros-pectors at Larkinville are now limited tothree gallons per day. The extra cost ofadcditional wilatEr bcilrig so sl iglit, to re-strict a nian to three gallons is needlesslyto discourage the mining industryi . Threegrallonks will not allow water to washdishes, to say nothing of wausbing One'sclothes at the end of the week. Fourgallons per dlay should be the minimum.Tn thme past the carting allowance has beenexploited. but that difficulty can lie over.come by imposi .ng a minimum of 2 dwrts.to the ton. If the stuff proves below 2dwtsq. in value, there should be no assist-ance towards carting. The nmininmum wouldprevent exploitation. At the last generalelection there were stated to be 1.840 vot-ers in the constituency; but after goingthrough the district wye found that anmothertlioisand names could easily' have beenaddled to the r oll, more than half the per-sops eoncerncd being on the goldfields. TAnneal to ihle Mfinister to give every eon-

1582 I A BLY.]

sideration to muining, atid especially toprospectors who open up the Country andtitus lead to the introduction of capital.p~rov'id1inzg emtploynmen t for utaniy whoOtherwise would be on the dle.

MR. ANGELO (Ciaseoynle) [7.57]: ftnnt'odu'itzg the Nlintes Estiimates to the

Conimifittee the M.iinister not only- iiadie aIfine speech but gave mnembeis tuost interest-irw anid valtuable in~formnation. I was indeedlpleased to see thle Cornier Miiiister o',%liunes.who controlled tile depaitmient for' mdi'-Year Is, a pplai m tile present \.il ister lit tillecontclusion of inis ininarks. ]t the interestsof Austrialia tie infiormatn ion funi sh ed 1) vthe Mtinister sitoutlni he l)1'(adtast. not o11ly1throughdout this State, and not onl].' through-oalt Australia, btil also in the O1,1 country' .At present interest rates inl thle Initedhii ngomn ati'e ye iv low indeed, anzd tlteojenow is the tiime to persuade itnon jed peo pieto develop this State's httge inineial re-sources. 1 am1 perfectly Cotta in that notevent oiie her ccitt. of the business peopleof Bri tain k now what we have in A ustraltia.I thought I hanl kept nivacif well itt oruncdmegaiding the dlevelopmient Of ol ' eoldfl. lds,but sonic of the in fornation given by theMiinister for Mines was qluite new to tile.'flint ifortnation shoutld be setit Home with.anl init imation thIat alth~o ugh Australiais isknown as a gold-producing coutntry, Westet'n Autstralia produces 88 per tent, of tltetotal Auastral inan outplut, The British peo-

Ice shoul 1( alIso lbe informed t I at in otilNorth-West there are hutndreds of mines aitpresent inactive, awaiting funds Cot thirdevelopment. If these matters were tmadeknown at Home, Western Australia wouldhave ati influx not only of people, but alsoof money. Ver 'y often, when I read "T1'ileTimes" and otheri English papers, I iioticearticles about the development of variotusindustries in other Domiions, but very sol-doin do I see any a rticeli onl the developmentof industry' inl Western Australia. I reallyvthink it would be good bttsiness if the Goy-et'nunt were to take advantag e of thespeech delivered by thle Alhinister for Minestis afternoon, a nipli fy it with futhler in-fornmti on, esJ) cia Ily regarnug tilt no itt leroif mines that could he developed profitablY.and send the information to our energeticAgent-General with a view to haviti, somle

of it dt'sienniateli thirounghout tile UtnitedKlvnidonl.

MR. F. C. L. SMITH (lBiowu Hill-Ivanhoe)[8.1] : I joinii inn the satisfac~tion ox pressedbY thle ) Ii nister ecn' tile enalthy call-ditiout of thle gold ininilig- indtusti'y. It isgratifying, to k-now-, imot oitly in thle interestsof thle i ndlusti-v itself fal of the Stlate genter-ally, that those conditions exist. It would] bedificult to vistual is thle nositin "nterall.%throtughotut Westein Atustralia to-day wereit itot for tile fact thait thle itndustrv ispirosjpeflg, and that Western A ustralia isfttrnishing at least 70 per C-entt. of the Coldproduction of the Coutmonwealth.

MNr. Angelo : The pereittage is nearen 88.Mr. F. C. L. 8111TPH: During the war

period, the gold jiinig inidustry decliined.That was duie not alon, to tite fact that therewere dem'litiiitg values inl tte ininies tlteiti-selv"es or, that tlte gold was less valuable. [nuittnt the Ci rcumnstanlce that the Cotm imon wealthbGovenment for the purtpose of' providlingfinance successfully to prosecinte tine war, de-parted fromnt the intintsice currency thiein inopecration and introidmced at reprieseittativeeurm'ene- of a cotusidena blY depreciated value.Althotugh tile value of gold itself did zuot de-Cle during that period, the Federal Gov-erillneut, by jeans of their policy, deprivedthe industry of (toe increased value of goldinl the terms of' the currenc -y thetn circulatinlg.Ultimately that depr'ivationt by, the Conunon-wtealth of a Vast amiount of wvealthi that shouldhave accrted to the idustry, was largelyrespons1.ile for its ,lerlinle. rThe itl(1115-tryV owes it lot to tme late .JamesGardinter, a oute-titnec Treasuren of this S1taite,who was the first Par1 iamnentarY represettta-tive to drawv attention to tin, fac-t thant thegol(I mnini ng industry was being- depriveti ofa value tintt rightly belonged to it. Eventu-allY those associated withi the industry weresucceessfmtl ini securing thle right to sell goldthrough tine (4ohml Producers' Association andto eltjo*v thle I emital that Should haive bieuitheirs practically thirouglhout tile War period.It is rightful comnpensattioni to file industrythat to-day those in Cout rol a re i a a positionto enjoy thre results of the econotinic roindi-tions that recompense thenm itt a measure forlie utit air buriden ita OfliSetCA ii~ thittt durini

theit. will t'eiodl. T it. no q1 uest ion bitthat the e-coniti coucditions pi-evailinug to-laY arte highly favourable to thne goidni agjuimtdusr- and to ant of its lpiosperity resultsTi''n that soitrve. 0 wing- to the incentive

1582

[2: NovfIImin. 1932A.1- 1.582

that thte linin liangireli to prnoductiontoid develnlment, new life has been given tothnt inivaitrv%., (tile tin dis-vries reniltinL,front tiff de~-elaonnent that has taken place.We f-aim sa fel v sa v thmat nitonv mines on. theGol deni Mile, thi u ugh dcv elopmen t an d mui-piroved plant, fire in a lit~itioa still to work

o I iparable basis. even if' gold were to me-vert to the original taiini price of £4 4s.l1i.An. Joel- title oz. I wits pleasedi to notethat tile 31 iister gave dun reeo".znitioll to thefact that the gol-aiiiiisr industry. imartien-larkY on, tine fiolden Mile, has not taken adl-vni tage of the premi~umn solely for thne pine-pose of t-rcitimg Jprolits ;finl paying, div idends.A vast Imimroprtiol oI the Imanfits wom during-tine paust few Years loas --oie isiuk into thleindustr , . N ew treatnit plants have beenerected, and im ('unmmSidemxle IqUantity Ofolevelopamental wvork has been undertakeni.Last year, out (nf .C3,1100,000 gained from thelpio(lultioni if ginld, £03,001 )Il va Ipaidout ini tile Form of dixicleicls. That showsthat thle ming (onrpalies have due regardt only, for their own interests but for thiose

of thle State, anldes (]-ite to develop thecirprtop erties so as to winl all the wveal th thatcal be )0Obtained by, p~roper developmient anidnulethods of mnuagemlent. However, .f amnsorry that, thoughl the m~ining eoluinies arepntisiiti a poilicy that is tin time interestsof al IF oncerned, thie Government ia'-e seenifit to) nut omit thle wa ter and mftlner- concessinsthat the coimpanaies formerly, enjoyed. Itshoul d he rci eiambored thlat thle Vast uinder-takings iii coinnectioni with thll new planthave not been coil)pleted, lbut ;i e in thn,transition stage. ,in(h I regret anll the morethat. tile G ovenrnmen t Ira e felt compelw1 led,problyi for f inanlcial reasons, to deprive theindinstr - of those coneessions, Fparticuilarlythat relantion tm wauter suippFli(-s. I notice thatthe GIold fields Water Silli )Fl I )epa rtnmentshonwedl at I mli t la st yea r of' oiver 05,000, ;aidthis rear aret budg~et i g for a1 proflit of£6,(1hI. While F kiiow the depnartmnt havebeen rtiinlmursedl I n tle --\imies I )evelopmentVote, ini view fof tilie fact that a1 Iprofit of.C68,0iOO is anticipiated durijng tine vint-rentyear, the Governmnent could 'cywell havenoado arianmgemnn eits lot fill- he uate-ro teoc olloto have been continuetd.The- Mini-ster Imr M1inies: Thne pro-nfit you

refer' to would not bli ctt..\rt. F'. C. L. 531 FTi '[: Yes, acrond 'air to

thle finamii returns. I notice that, afterpaying interest and sinking fluid chargesoil tile supplementary capital cost, covering-

ren ewalIs a;fil ex teon,*1, te lieprt mnt al ii ireFiudgeting for a prolit of £08,000.

Th le Miniister for Minets: Tile ilecii"-

kited loas stands aft A:1,18,000.M1r. F'. CI. L. S]I 111: I know% thlat is, so.

I finlls Aw;are that a certin FplOl)itioiifeas Ipaid (1 our of eVen'ne, but tile flolilfieldSWYater Suip ply Scheme rep resents in trnder-takii lu hea-line of whick cannot lie as~sessedoii tie liasis of the (livect returns front it.[Tiat Scheme eniald wealth that existed to

ewont Iroin ft-e 2ol2i Mile, and in re-turn created the poissibility of atgrieulturaldevelopiuciut I lironirhlout tint' Sltate. Thattact is ,earel apy jprecia tedi. Another fea-fire f wvishi to toneh upon ha' reference tothe inpeetors of nmines. The staff has been'seriouslY depleted ;al f 410 riot t hink thatis, dlesiraible' in vijew of the fact that theiniber of men eniploved iii the industryhas inneveasenl so a ppreciabily. Thle StatelMliim-it Vgineer, in his report fior the year103)fl, stated-

Si nce 2Loa reF., 19P30, miy staltl has been, re-tnt-ed lo our olli cers, that is, A ssistan't S ta toMiiig Emngiineor, one insipector ;ail twoworkrii in's inispectls, aid tine field work islow beliing carried flnt by tlee seoifor inspector,MNr. \%. Pionifour inspeetors, Messrs.A., W. Wini~zr, E. .1. Gourley, F1[. lo. Rockecttand .t . McVve. two work mcix's inspectors,Messrs. L C. I) A ry anad R. P'. 3eei li

itt ai liewl 'v anppoicnted eitheri to assist wvithdust :a il -erntiIantijoin work, M.kr. KE. Blrjibane.

Since then Mr. Gouirley has left, so thatmakes one less. Recently applications werefalled for the position f district inspector,hut. afoer the ajopiations were received, noa ppointmuent was mna de. T do not knowwhether those responsible for the alppoint-treat of the inspector considered that thosewvho applied had miot suifficient quatlificat ionsfor thle position, bitt it is quite po~sible thatthey w ere guided by the provisions of tireM\ines Regulation Act governing the ap-poiitnent of in'peetors. They may' haevesubmitted the eanidnates to the exainationprescribed for district inspectors. If tlhatWere so0, [ conbider it al most impossible tofll a position carryiing at salarv of £348 aYear hyn secuinu :1 Z 1a1man possessilmz all the,1nialifielitionls set out as neessaryv for the

poi ion. To in'v mind. the maos t essentialknowledge that should he poz~es-cd by aninspector of inines shoul b( e that gainedfromt leng-th (of experience iii undergroundwork. lie might poo-sihl'v reqluire to harvesonme knowliedge rf mine sui-revel . but whyshonild lie b- required to have a knowledge

1584 [ASSEMBLY.]

of mnetallIurgy, ore dressingp andl sainpliitg,,mining geology or- arithmetic, or mensura-tion of lines, surface and solids, book-keep-ing and mining accounts? I do 'notconsider those qualifications are neces-sary for inspectors of mines at all.We notice from the inspector's report thatthere are only two workmen's inspectors foirthe vast district extending fromn Norsemnanto Wiluna. In those circumstances it is ini-possible for a wvorkmen's inspector to do.justice to his position for a salary of £-346per annum. It is eheeseparing to deny theminers the protection that another work-men's inispector onl the Golden Mile wouldgive them. Last year, the percentage ofaccidents showed very little reduction asagainst priC~ous years. Durn g the yearthere were 169 serious accidents in the EastCoolgardie district alone, and 13 fatal acci-dents. Althoug-h the percentage over theyears fromt 1927 to 1931 has not varied verymuch, I do not think we can pride ourselveson that achievement; we could pride our-selves only if we found that the number offatal and serious accidents onl the inines wasreducing each year, as it ihould be, as theresult ot proper suipervLion iii tile industry.We find that those accidents are practicallythe same in number Year iiy year-, and infact show a tendency to increase. There isrio reason why there should have been 169serious accidents in the East Coolga.rdie dis-trict last rear and 13 fatal accidentg. Thereseems to be a practice onl the Golden Mileto put into responsi ble positions men whohave not had very, much experience. Toput Onl a lot of new churn miners lends forceto the contention that the inspectorial staffshould be considerably increased, not onlydistrict inspectors, but workmen's inspectorsalso. Another feature in the industry is thetenidency to put into responsible positions,such as shift tosse,' inr who have not hadany lengthy experience in the industry. Innily opinion a mian should have at least 10years' underground- experience of WecsternAustralian miniaL- before being appointed tosuch a post. But nowadays there are shovedinto shift bosses' positions men who havehad oly two or three years' experience.U nder the coal mi ning regulations a mailhas to have somle qlualifications before liebecomnes an over-sa n, which I. take it is asimilar position to that of shift boss in thegold-mining industry. The inspector in hisreport submit, anl examination paper giv-

in.- a significanit indication of tile qualifica-tious required iii a loni to be appointed toall over-ia's positioni in the coal miningindustry. I take it those qnalifications aireinsisted upon in the interests of the menwh-]o work in the conl mines. Similar provi-sionis should obtain in the gold mining in-dustr v to ensure that new chums and otherslcking experience should not be givein

sit per visi rig positions in a i e. [ j oin withthe member for Murchisorn in protestinga -a inlst the cuttinig out of sustenance forsiingle men prospecting, and against the nig-gardly fash ion in which sustenance has beenadvanced fot- lioslpeetors generally. I do notknow whether the Gov'ernment intend topusue that policy. Only 10s. a week hasbeen allowed to prospectors, and in someutstances only 7s. atweek-. Yet those uer,

au-c out doing a realI service to the cont-mnunitv. Thme on ly hope we ],ave of findinga new gold in inc is through the exploratorywork of thle prWospector, who does the plion-ering aid submnits to all the hardships eni-tailed iii prospecting. The least the Goverririen r might do is to retonsidler their attitilde in respecct of sustenanne for- prospec-tors, for- 1 believe that if tim t susternanewere more readily given it would well repaythe Government. But if it is the policy ofthe Government to deny; suistenanlce to single

iil wvho desire to go out prospecting, anrdto cut down sustenance to prospectors geiner-allyv, it ca:n only be regarded ns anl unfor-tunate policy. 1 wih to make a suggestionto the M.1iuister. Nowadays a lot of smaillcomnpan ies arc heiiig formied for milling- de-Nelopnieiit. In annothuer place a goldfieldsmnember drew attemntiont to the fact tllat tltese,rnal mni ni ng developatent comlpanies raisea certain amount of capital, the 1)ulk ofwhiichs is suppjosed to he used ii muiiniig de-velopinetut. He rightly- pointed oat that inlila v jutstan uces a large anmount of ftle capi-tal raised is eaten upl iii office and otheroverhlead exp)enses. T suggest to the 'Minis-ter tha t with a view to assisting- men to getelliploYlieit lie nma ke ai offer to titose snitllcomipanies that where they' spend from£1,000 to £3,000 in development wvork he willsulw~idise themn to the exteint of, say. I Os.per week for every man they ciiploy indcvelopnment work. That wosuld be tin illeen-tive to those companies to spend a fair-amiount on development work and nt the.same tinie woumld create emlploymlent for atlarge anmber of men. The prosp~ects of tlte

[3 -NOVEMBER, 1931] 58

g-old-miining industry are very bright. Iknow there is a possibility that the inter-national conference to mneet in Londonshortly to consider the nioneta cv positionmiay detide to break awa -y from gold alto-getber and( use somiething else as a standardof currency, which would he disastrous.However, I have little fear of that happen-ingJ for I know that gold has peculiar quali-ties as a basis of currency, and there is verylittle possibility of any1 substitute beingfound for it. Senator Sir Hal Coleh.Atch ina recent letter to the "West Australian"said that the best opinion tends. to the re-duction of the gold content of the sover-eigni.which is nowv 113 grains, of' fine go!d. A'-cording- to the Senator, in all probability thatwill ultimiatelv be. fixed at 00 grains. itf thatcome., about, the price of gold will neveragain dIrolp below £5 per oz. The outlookgenerally11 for gold-minling is a very bealthy(one. There are one or two other matters,such as State hatterics, which I should haveliked to have touched upon, but T under-stand I will have ain opportunity to do solater,

VXole put ad passed.

Votes-Council of Industrial Dc relop-ment. £921.; State Labour Bureau, £%3604-UYgret to.

I-ote-Plie, U204,228:

HON. P. COLLIER (Boulder) [8.25]:W~ill the Minister take the -House into hisconfidence and say just what is the intentionof the Government in regard to the controlof the polite force? Although there is noregulation retiring age for the Commissionerof Police, I understand the present Couinis-stioner was appointed for a termi of yearswhich has nearly expired. WVill the IMm-ister sax- whether it is intended to appointthe present CoinnIIib-sioner for a further termiin office, or- whether it is intended to makeat change? I think the House is entitled tok-now just what is in the mninds of the Gov-crnment in this regrard.

T9!. MINISTER FOR POLICE ri-In.J. S.caddan-M.%aylands) [S.27] : The Comn-iniassioner will shortly reach what is gener-ally accepted as, thle retiring age, namely, 6.5Years. I have riot vet consulted Cabinet onl

the question of continuing the Commissionerin office or alternatively appointing a niew%Commissioner. As soon as the matter has,Advanced far enough to submit it to Calb-irtet a public announcement will be miade.I realise that what is in the mind, of theLeader of the Opposition is that we shouldmnake as little disturbance as ipossible in timecontrol of a. very iwportant department.Personally, I think we would do well byain1tingW the Commissioner for a furtherperiodl. Whether or not lie would he pre-pared to accept a further term:, I cannot say.Cabinet will have to decide upon what courseis, to be followed. The Comitissioner real-ises that if rcquired to (10 so lie miust retire,bult as the Leadler of the Opposition has said,there is ito speciflc timle att which ie shouldretire. for the period fixed in the regula-tions does not apply to the Coimmissionter.When a decision is arrived at a p)ublic state-ineett will be made.

MR. H. W. MANN (Perth) [8.20]3: Likethe Leader of the Opposition I am verymuch interested in the position, for the rea-son that for nearly a quarter of a centuryT was connected with the police force. I,served under the lprosnt Coimissionew,first when be was an inspector and then sub-sequent to his appointment as Comistoner.Amongst a dozen men we may not find onesuitable for the conimissionership. M~anytraits of character aire required in a manto fill this very difficult position. I doubtwhiether there is another position in theGovernment service that necessitates thetact, diploniacy, personality and general coon-trol that is required of thle Commissioner.He needs to bare a general knowledge ofpublic opinion; he must be a man in whomthe public have confidence-from. time totime hie is called upon to act at once underconditions delicate and difficult-and henmust have the confidence of his officers andmfen. The Commissioner has been in theforce for close on 40 years and has risenfrom the rank of ordinary constable to thehighest post in the service. There has neverbeen our suggestion against his administra-tion, and that is due to his aptitude for theposition arisingr out of his long training.Some of the other States have speculatedor taken the risk of going- outside the ser-vice for a Commissioner, and I do notthink the experiment has been a success inatmv instance. TC the Commissioner desires

1585

1.556 ASSE3II3rY.JI

to retire, it will he the duly of thle Govern-mon'lt to app~oint at stieceszsor. unkit r a1IIIdonhtful whether tlwvy will he able to findlan ' yomle ouitside thle service with a knowledgeof the intricacies of the position. Onlythrough loug service canl a man realise theresp~onsibilities of tHie ollic. There may beain offcer with lonmil-fitary servioc or longassociation with the Pnihlic Service, but hecould not possess thle experienxce requiredof ,i Commissioner ohr Police. l)uring iii-dustrial troubles, the Commissioner shouldbe able to discharge his durties in in mammerto win the confidence of both sides, to thedispute. Such troubles occurreud while I[was inl thle service, hlt there wins never asuggestioni that thle Cult]nIn issio ner exceededhis duity or embarrassed either his oficers3oc his mecn.

Mr. Marshall: What ag-e is thle Coninits-sioner?

AlFr. H. AV. MAN-N: Appronching 6.5.Mril- 'Mrrshall : We have appoinited men

whto were older than that to important posi-tionls.

_Xr, H1. W, M1ANN : I aim not speaking linfavour of his retirement. IT i' e is incliniedto continue in Office, f suiggest that hisservices be retained. He is still full ofvigotr, and hits exp~erience to g~iide himin the discharge of the duties for mnanyyears. If be retires of his o-wn volition,f hope the officers of the police force willbe considered before any appointment isniade from outside the service.

Mr. Mlarshall : That wouldl exclude antvpossihility of Your becoming Conmnis-Si one r.

-Mr. H. W. MTANN: I hope to bet herefor some years. to combat the lion. niemi-her's efforts.

lBon, W. DI. Johnson: Voni harve g-ot aijob.

Mr. H. W. M-NANN: 1 mnerely desire to in-form the Committee of the difficuilty of tireposition. Two of the other States tookthe risk of appointing a Commissionerfromt outside the service, hut such mnencannot understand what is required oftheir subordinates.

Mf,. M.%arshall:. Do voni thinlk a majorityof the force would ag-ree with your con-tention ?

'Mr. H. W. MANN: 'If a vote of thewhole of the miembers of the force weretaken to-morrow, tliei' wvould fnnvorir tiheappointment of a C'ommnissioner f romj

within the service. I am) sure there anreofficers within thle ser-vice capable or ta l-in-g tine positiosi. It niught as well besuiggested that a mnan withouit previouiexiperielree could hike the positLion nitchief enrgineer in the Works Department.

Mr. Marshall: Suich a, init woniri be all

31r. Hl. W. MANN: A\ny candidatt forthle clmnisinerSi hould lie a pioliceoli Ce r. A Mnan. imight learn to lie an ,ii -

Igineer in a. shiorter time than it wonldl take_to become a police officer.

NMr. N.landbiall :lHe would oivy neied 1Lolea in tHie rotiine.

M~r. 1-i. NV. 1MN: _k police officmr nitislie auIt ait with Acts, (it' Parliament, kWown1ow to conltrol Iii, and know huw to

overroruc the limidr'ed-nnnl-orne dithilntie;that ;irise. and( snicln knowledfre curn vinfe0111V oi1 veills otf experience.

Mir. Keninleally : If thlere aN nc c1on tentIriell in the service, the perquisites. or thleserviv shotild le openl tin themi.

)1r. 11. WV. MANN: There are nnnen whohave uivenl loyal servitce and wino look tohie viliinev of' reaching- the highest posi-

t ion.Mr'. Marshall: Qulite a lot of. theml fail.v\r. H. W.MANN : I truslt the Ipncsent

Comnu11issioner will continule, bt. if lie nie-sn-es; to ret ire, I hope the florerunuentwill hesitate before selecting at mian fronioutside thle ser-vice.

[r11r. 4 ngelo took t.he6 Chair.]

MR. MARSHALL (Murchison) r8.401:The tunc is overdlue when legislation shouldbe introduiceui to create all appeal hoard forthe police. ft. ha;, beeni promised for a con-sidernble imie. Oil onke occasion an Oiteinptwas miade to concede the request, hut owigto ailnlendmuent having1, been paIssed that"-as considered objectionable to thne Govern-inent, the mneasure wins defeated. Jf legis-lnition of a similar kind were introducednow% wit honit the ohjectionahle amendmnent,I thinnk it would receive sIllpport and wouldlie acceptable to the force. I thotrhri thi-Mtinister wou1l llirvo injtroduced such_- legis-lation. this session, lita We have not heardof it. Do the Governinent intend to intro-(hice it this session ? T anm afraid there willlie no0 time, owing to thle congestion of buss-niess. This is regrettable because the inat-ter of air appeal board agitates the miind

1.586

[3 XovFsiawai, 1932.1 1S

of nail every memnber of the force, and Ifeel nure that the Comnmiss ioner is uot op-posed to lxdainso long as the questionOf promotion is exeinded. Such legislationwonuld be a step towards satisfying all coni-cerned. I should like to hear w1hat the Gov-er'inent's intenat jofs are.

MR. IKENNEALLY (East Perthi 18,T2]:The Ministe~r staid that Cabinet had not dle-cided whether the' Comnmissioner would becontinued ini ote, aunl he pointed out thatthere was 110 retiring- ageC for the service. I,wvish to deal with a prilleil ale, and not with

.n particular officer. In anothe-r serviewnder the conurAl or the Minister, ato retir-in , age is provided for wag~es or salariedmnen, but tile Minlister is insisting upon thiewages men retiring at lte age of 65,

The 31inu~ter for P1olice: I dto not, thinkyoui are justified ini putting, it that wa.

Mr. KEINNEALLV: I am.The -Minister for Police: Then I say yon

are not, because it is the men's Own ret luest,Mr. KENNEALLY: It is not. The Mini-

isler knows, that Lte mn Waited an him A.-aI deputation to protest agatinsi thle decisionto retire them.

Tue Minister for Police: What mnen?,\-r. KENN;XLAAIJ: The wages, min.The Mfinister for Police;, Only the mnil

interested, not the unions. lDo T understandyou to say that the railway unions are de-sirous of abolishing" that regalatiunf1

'Mr. 7KEXNEALTXY: The Minister needhave no doubt as to what the railway unIionsplaceed before him. They' protested againsthis retiring men unless, somne provion weremade for themi after they' had retired. Hadnot the quiestion of retirement been raised,nd had tnt the principle involved

other rdepartmients. I would not havementioned the Commissioner of Police.If it is reasonable to insist upon mnen ottthe wages stagf retiring at the age of 6-5,nd giving tltci a month's notice beforethat time so that they will not stay in the

sevc ay longer, it is not Pair to keel)

sa.laried inen on the staff beyond the re-tiring age when the3 have pensions to re-tire upon. There ougit tlo he some systemin operation, somnething that will enableeveryone to say, "That is the policy to ap -ply all round." We are not justified inFkying to a member of the wages staff,"Willh %-nil~lyv when youaa are 8.5 you, rnnsthave the service." To other officers,

whether it i. Ithe CwIaIn]issioner or s;omeoneelse oupiga high position with aneajuivalent salaryv, we' say. "Yout can stay(Ill." Men onl thle wages staff are; beingt_,aven niotice before they reach the age ofU, in order that they may be got out Of thleservice in good time, Somne uniform sys-ti-i 5 hiould he adopted., There should heno rigid rule wherebv one set of men aire,~nt out of their Jobs hiefore they reach thr.!retiring age, and another set are allowedti. remain.

HON. W. D. JOHNSON (Ouildford-Mfidland) (8.481 : 1 should like to refer to theaccent raid onl what was alleged to he, anOrganisa tion of vomiinuinists*. Certaini homeswere visited by the police. I do not knowwhether this was done tinder the directionof the State Government, or at the reqnestof the Federal C-oveninment. in the ease ofotie hoine in which I an particularly inter-este. the J)oiice took away qluite a lot ofliterature and a number of books, Therewas no need to remove the books, beecan.ethere was, nothing of ain incriminating i-thire conn~cted with them. The police, how-ever, did not hesitate to take thise as twollas all kinids of literature. I rio not knowwhether they found anything of real '-aloefor their purepose, but I do know that no-tihing- line yet been retuned.

The Mlinister For Police: T do atot knowto whet homep you are referring.

I-ton. AV. D. JOHNSON: It is not ad-visable that I shold make the name public,bitt the Minister should say who initiatedthe raid, what its obljeet was, and why itwas not carried out in a more consideratemanner.

11[r. TI. NV. -Mann: You are not in favourof thpecommiunistic: gospel, are you!?

Ron. W. D. JIOHNSON: That is not thepont. I object to tile Itoanes (4i lteaefulmemnbers of the connaunify and li-bdncitizens being raided by the police. A per-son may he suspeted and he~vallerl upon t)explain somethint. That in-zhl occur ~moe, T don not alwayvs follow the crowdl. rhave beent victimised Itefrire bevause" I hart,held views which did not fit in with thoseof the public. Every reform moventidh-rinws with it a, certaitn amount of hostilityon the part of those in authority, . t is.however-, possible to take these- steps ill such

-wav as to minlimise the irritation that kq

11587

158S [ASSEMBLY.]

caused to those who are raided. This raidwas ill-considered. Possibly the policec arried it out as they wvere directed, butthose behind it had little conception of whviatwvas due to the people of Western Aus-tralia. I ami prepared to give the 'Ministerthe names of the people to whom I harereferred, and would then ask him to take,teps to see that thle books which Fare beenremoved], and are of no ralue to the police,,are returned. If the local police wvere re-sponsible for the raid, I miust say that itcould have been carried out in a more con-siderate manner, and the same resultsachieved without the irritation that wasaetually caused.

THE MINISTER FOR POLICE Moun.J. Scaddan-'Maylands-in reply) [8.521 - Iwould not have replied to the debate,. but forthe remarks of the member for Guildford-Midland. The so-called raid mnade upon cer-tain persons suspected of being connectedwvith ani oru',auisntion which had been declaredto be illegal under the Commonwealth law,was not made by any direction given by mie,or so far as I1 know, by any member ofCabinet. I only learned of the raid after ithad occurred. It would be very inadvisablefor a Mlinister to adopt the attitude of in-structing the Commtissioner for Police whenand how he should -.ict. This gives me theopportunity of telling mnembers. and thepublic generally that because I happen to beMfinister for Police, it is assumed that everyaction taken by thle police is done uinder mydirection and with my knowledge. Only thismorning a man said to mie, "It was prettyclever of 'you to arrange that 'little arrestyesterday just wh-len your Lottery Bill wasgoing to hie brought up again." I asked towhat lie was referring, and I was informedthat the reference was to the case which hasactually been dealt with to-day. I had notthe remotest idea that a prosecution had beenlaunched until [ saw the reference to it inthe Press, The Commissioner does not askme when hie should take action to -see that thelaw of the land is comiplied with, or thatpeople shall be arrested because of somecnine they have committed. That would betoo absurd for anything. I had no know-ledgre of the raid at the time, and no know-ledge of any unpleasant feature in connec-tion with it until it was mentioned hereto-night. If the hooks are of no value to thepolice, and beong to somie private citizenand the hon. member will give me the neces-

sary information, I will take action to seethat they are returned. With reference totilling at possible x'aeanev in the office ofConmmissioner of Police, I1 can onily repeatwhat I have said, that I have not y et conl-sidered the mnatter. -I do not consider thatretirem~ent; at a definite age applies to a per-sonl holding a position such as thle Cominlis-sioner of Police or the Commissioner of Rail-wars, Both are very important executiveoffices, which ought to be filled by p~ersonswho are completely qualified, and ill whomthe Coverinnent, the public and Parliamenthave every confidence. It is dangerous tomake changes if they can be avoided. T donot think there is any analogy' between the'cases mntioned br thle iember for EastPerth and these important lpositions. I harelearned with astonishment that there is adesire onl thle part, of the wages men, throughtheir union, to amenid the regu~tlation. Iunderstood the contrary to be the case. Ithought it was the mecu theasalres who de-cided that when they reached the age of 65,in tile interests- of the service itseltf, thatshould be recognaised as the age of retirement.

'Mr. lKcnneally : That is not so.The MIN1hTER FOR POLICE: ]f that

is not so, it ought to be put onl record. Iunderstood they were responsible for theregulation in thle first place.

Mr. Kenneally: They were not.The "MINISTER FOR POLICE: They

have been pretty keen Onl Secillg that it isenforced. I know how they chased mybrother-in-law to get out when he reached thea4ge of 65. I know they did not take circum-stances into account in that ease. Sonmetimeswe are asked to treat single men who haredependauts; in the same war as we treatmarried men., We are asked to consider thecircumnstances. surrounding each ease. I knowthey do not consider it when it app)lies to amail on the wages sta~ff in the railway servicewho reaches the age of 6.5. If he does notgo out then, the others rery soon make anoise about it.

Mr. Kenneally: The Minister himself wasthe first to say thley had to go out. The menare keeping him up to that now in order tomake things uniform. Why should you pickand choose? Why should the men not keel)you upI to your own decision?

The M1IMISTER FOR POICE: If thelion. member puts it in thait way I amu sureI do not mind.

Mr. Kenneally -Why should not yourbrother-in-law ha~ve retired?

158S

The MINISTER FORt POLIC(E: L itactually desired that wages unen in (he G3or-eorniegit service should have no age limit forretiremvent?

Mr'. Kentictllv TJhe Mlinister irn-titutedthat wtblout thle union.

The C1i1l H1l AN:. I think mnembers arewan dcning awayi13 froml thle an bjetc.

Thle AJINISTFER FOR POLICE: Not atall. rThis applies to thle poli1ce force as well.The other day we retired the Cief'1 Inspec.tor of Police.

.%'% H. W. Ml 1i1in: Re4f. 're whlni there~were still huh iv Yeairis of goodl service.

Thie MINISTER PO01 1101oLICE: Yes.TI'here is imngst tilie irank an iltl or all(invernineut delpartmnit, a keTi deire thatit shoulId hie k inon anmd acee td as at poll tythat thle mran] who rpehes thle age of 65shlould r'etiire. '['hat Cannot apply inl tilesmile senlse to wen who fill izipu'taiit execti-Live offices, siuh as thle piosition (of Conns-sioner ot' Railway's or Comnmissionuer otPolice.

.Ir. It. W Milun: Provided the Conniunis-sioiuei of Police desires to retire. All thingsbeing equal, would you consider looking forai suctessor iii the servic.e itself ?

The MINISTER FOlR, POLICE: No ap-poininent, will lbe mnade until applicationishatve been called fromn those who are wit-hin1111(1 without the service. Our obJect will heto get the best mazn who can lie Found tofill the position of Comnnlissioiuer of Police.Mlen ii the service will get the first con-iii-eratioti anmd p retee nce. I can iiot (~'oitmyself to saying that somleone inl the ser-vice will get the Job. If 1 were to declarenow% thait ili n1o circuimstanc'es would al , yoneblt a nielkiher ot thle civil ser-vice obtaill thleposition, I would have to call baick the Gat-hilg gun which has gone oilt to slaulghtereinus, bevause there would be a war inl thledepartmient to find out who the mai wouldIe, Of couirse everyone inl the service isanixiouls to gt promotion. The Giovern mentiiust4 treat the question of' the appointientto tile positionl of (Commissioiier or' Policeill exacttly the 51111W fashion as we providefor appinitmniits in other departments. Ap-plicaitionis wvill he called, each applicationwill be dealt with onl its mierits, and prefer-en~e wvill be given, to men w'ho at-e already inlthe service.

1-mu. 1'. Collier: That is very genierouls.

The IIJNI1TEIt FOlR POLICE:, That isdlefiiite. I do a ot thiink the lwin. mceimbericanl point to ally tase of' filling at high posi-tion in tile Governmentt service that I havehad to dto with wihere I did not i'ecommndSomle man11 in thre seirvice. 111111 snietiines amnain wel (I1]own tiie Ia ddci'.

Hlon. P. Collier: I do not know of' iii1.q e

'fihe -AIL [NSTEH FOR 1POLI CE: I dlidthot ii Ilie case of Coluunel Pope. I weiitl's i v v well d owi- ti tlit'ludder whe [ii rueoi-ieiided him fli (lie posit ion of FRailw-ays

('oniiuunisione'i. because 1. 'oiisideriul. heconid fill it. I uuun nlot 1-lou i g 'm allv(I it'tiiitie I lie serviuc for the position of C'oln-iissioiiei' at Iolive, for I think we havemii within it capale of filling it. Thlli ini-lie i' ot' PerthI need no't ask in 1' to vornin itIllys'elf Ito) sa thiat no0 C-oniderationl Will hegii'en to iliVOiii else.

.Ir. 1-I. N. Mainn: All thimne, 'icingequal, wil] v ou give thle position to a aleiii-her Or the service ?

Trle -MINIST ER FOR? POLICE: I haveinot Yet cosuilted Cabinet ahout the ntatter~lbut will do so-

Air. H. IV.- Mann : Time is gettinglu on.,Thie 3MINISTER FOR POLICE: Wheni

I have clone4 so. at pnlli'.1111- annuneme1n t Willlie mlade.

I ter i, Coiniuissioner, £SfOO

lI I . P, £0111 ER : I apjireciatc, the re-marks of thle Minister, Which were verydiplomantic, Ile said the whole cluestionwould hie carefully considered, that appli-cnons.- would be called for, and that thesewould lie dealt with onl their merits. I agreeeiitirely with all that has been said by theuiemliiher for Perth. The Commnissioner' forPolice is close uip to the retiring. age, and1,0st likely' the position will he dealt withduriing the next few moniths.

MrIt. H. W, 'Mann: Before Christmias.

lon. P. COLLIER.:. We are entitled toknow tile attitude of the Government inlthle iiiatter. I say unhesitatingly that theposition should niot. be filled froni outsidi!the service if a suitable mnan canl he foundinside the service. The (lovernintent, ofcourse, may say tlhei'e is nio one within thesr-rvice qualified to fill the position. Suit1the Miiiister m iust know that an appoint-mnit will he ade shortly,. and that accord-

[3 NOVE,1113ER, 1.932.]

1590 [ASSEMBLY.]

imr to cotimtnl talk someone outside tile secm htave boosted thle alleged taut that more'e %%C ill IlC appJointed.

T[hle M1ii 4r for P ol ice : That talk is veryv

II on. 1'. CoLI 1-:14 : So rely thle 21 in iserktt wS what is in his nni, notwithstandingtht rite mattei is otne tor Cabinet to decide.XViiI the( Mlinister, tell tie Committee thaianti~ apil iitilt will he mnade fromt withinthle servic I(("

The Minister tor Polie: WAith thle exleri -eitet yOlt li~e Iti its heaid oft aoem

leaguei (of Yours t0 tmake suich aI statemtentwithtour having, cottstlted you)

litn. 1'. CO1AI. E: I knowv what thleMlinister- would i.. Iiiitltmnt giving atwayany lotitletiuc, I tin ,vSaty that wvhen ti Iwisa A2 iiuishr1 controlling a department aidriade a reconitittt{iiIion to clablltet onl .1tinittli peitliarlyI in'v own, mv Cahinernever tintned mie Iown. I wvgnlc lnot remaoinl

a ucitlier of thle Cabllet if uIn col letitmesturnecd tile down oil a uiilestiolt Ile riairly Ill ,Owvt, as to ivhieit I ought to lie tite bestjudge. Will thel Nliniter for .ati,, or theMinister tot Agriclture Or anyi Other ,Ilill-ister clai6m1 to ble aIs We'll ClUailied to judleeOf this nu11tter aIs the Minister for Poliie?Of coursec not. I1 protest agalInst the Possi-bil ityv of an ap1 pointmnent being made fromoutside the service.

Vote pt :land paissedl.

ItettFors.v. £lS3,7 6 5-u greed to.

F ote-Child 11elfare anid Outdoor Re-lief, P136,375:

Mr. S leemnan: XV lill tile 21 it'isler inmt ro-date(- t his vote!1

The IMinister for Railwa~s. There isno oevaiiolt to dto so.

[.1ir. Ri'/wrdsru, teak the Chtair.]

RON. S. W. MUNSIE (Iiritians) [9.8]I hope tlte Minlister will have solnething,to Say oil tis la rge vote.

The 2 itnist er for Rail wa vs : I will i)-oti will ive nit anl ideal of whtat voltwiven I Ine it say. ft is the( Saote vote itslast year'1,s, to all intents m id pitrposes.

Ron. 0. IV. 314 fF do not wishto tell the Minilsteru what( lie should So, v-.1 knowv lite is pumpa red to express htiimselfon ally of' his Estimates. 'fhe Government

than one-third of ith.. yea rl, dIeficit hatsbetet eatiseti ]Nv this (leiartanuerit. Thi isitfile ftil. I'lie m-tital monittoi of' jibing

spet otn otdoorii relief ias little greaterno\%', althoitlug we io passilo, tiutoughSttchI aistressfull tunles,. thanl thle :11ti01ttitSpenit iii 1929-i10. 'I'lo increase is oly'26,lI)(. \V 'u is, I iete tttder this Vote I

'Tle \Iinishl r lot Iih%,il,vn vs htl is notdlo ttiolt.

l[ieu. S. \N'. 2JUN81 E I'le amnttt£;43. 990 wits tio t fotun d from iflOe! ule.

fThe 21 mlister for. Railways: Of courseit was rotind fromt revenue.

Hlon. S. W6 M[UNSI : Not alt of it. Tile3 H a eter- should inn ke all explnation. waiaolv of' that litoney ohbtained ftom Lnoranfuinds? Of eourise sonic of it wvas. Willthe Alimister tell the Committee where the21)11ey spn ~ilO tlte works at Harvey was

obtaitied ?'rThe 311 rustetr Tor Ra il'vavs* That has

iiotit zi to dto wi th thtis. 11 is qunite apartfroto this.

hlot. S. WV. 3AUNSIE \o \liinister htasvet a adle a statement. either publiely orprivately, irhich would lead mue to believethat all the money spent in relief workhas been spent over and above the atitnntof fhe vote.

THfl INISTER FOR RAILWAYS(Hon. J1. Seaddan-Mitylands) [9.11] : Ian) no t responible1 for the preSent at ion ofthese Estimates in this forta. All *1 ainresponsible for is tlte framintt of the ex-peiditure int thle departmients I Cointrol. It'(i hiot. tembler tttrrts to i,)jisiouS 41 and42 of the Estimates, hie ilt fIind thatthe Vote for Child Welfare and OutdoorRelier is £136,175, while tie Vote for Un-cmnplovinit Relief is C310,774. which in-e.luide" Ilem 120 whuich provides £3100.000for linetnplovaicut relie f. If lie takesthose twvo figures, hie will see that they'tetal £:447.149), which is the amonttat setotut in the Estimnates. With regard toLoan ex pendcitunre, if lie Ilooks tip the Pub-lie Accottnts for the financial year ended:30th -[itne last, lie will See on page .33that for 1931-32. the Vote for I'nernploy-ment Relief was £C480,000 aind the expendi-tore £643,996. showing, nit exess expenditure

[3 No' K31 i t 1032.j 1.591.

.I, C 6:3.996d. That lds (lie -tlijil expeIndi-tur~e Ifromi revenue on hinemlin'~tiit re(.Hier last year.

MR. KENNEALLY (iEa't [Perib) [9.141:Soel Tilie ago tile 'Minister Stlted that ifdedjirtions were mniile front1 oiutdioor relief'ill respect of' children, it was jiot as at re-stilt of Government poi c. AJ)pil renti"since Then tile G4overnment have issued adl-ditional instri('tions, hecause it is peculiarThat therec is at g~eneral tendency ,vOr t it partor thle departmental Officials to cut dlownithe paymient, of 9s. for children to 7s., whichis more Ii keeping with the ordinary sus-tenlange Inivilients. Thlere is anothei lines-tion thatI should receive the attention ofthe Mlinister. if it hao; alreadl r ecei vediliicoiisiderat ion then hoi has evidently arrivyedit a wrong" dlecision,. It lmIl1) a ,Iiattei'tlhat is iwvond him, anid hie imy have hilto aecellt the recomuindation of the Pub-.lie P ervice Commniissioner. A fewv ruin utesag~o we were d isecussi hg the need for, therecog-nition of thle merits of officers who per-forned their i' ork in a Snsta cu ir manii-3get. The fi iel wio wats umed ia u'Iy un -der* 31\Ir. WVatsoni , friieHj secretary of thetChildI Welfare Department, is a lonIlifeunil. I ihoonil Iv comipetent to ftcIilpv tii-vl'a-ut posi tioin of ]lead of the department.It As small tribute to honest service whenact ion w a tn 1by the lov~ein nnt \%i iowent ouitside thle depaitment anmd appointediaunt her officer over that individual's blsd.despite tile fact t hat tile ap'pointee kinewuuoth ing, whatever of tile work lie was to per-fora. I maqke that statement without re-fleeting" iun hiji at ill.

Bon. 1'. Collier: It was a very wronga ppointmnilt.

The 1 inistem- for Rn ilwn vs : 1 iml notthink so.

H~on. 1'. Collier: H1e is at good lin, biltthe appointment was wrong altogether.

Tilt- 1 iiister for HailwaY~S : I think it wasa a excel lent apploinrtment.

Mr. KENNEALTLY: I aim not refleetiiw111)02 the officer at allI. However g-on a11ia11 lie Tmae havye bcei ini former )Oqi tions.lie cannout hie rega rded as an good man inhis prpesent poci tion compared wvith the offi-per who hadl spent his time in the depa rt-ment eflnippingf himself for the hig-her pos.whose abilil v cannot ibe inieiried, 12liII1011bouwhoa, no coimp lin ts can ble ma ido. Ho wasa ili'( to relieve the head of the dep a rtmentond to (-arrlv oi nscresczfullv. To ;I large

extent lie mnu~t gave to cariry the presenitgeniI of the departnient.

lion. P. Collier: The nto is doing thejob now.

M1r. l(ENNEALLY: It is nt! satigfaer-tory hi t officers to see others a ppointed overtheir heads in such c'irv-nilstatles. An-tother iiatter I would like to dra w the Min-iqter'g attention to has. rolation to men inrecipt of the Tmlllpl Icr rtes nf susIteln ae.ITO will r-ecol lee! that we wa it ed a- a d ep il-tation up1oni him, and asked that additionalattention slhould Ile give,, to the unemnploYedin receip~t or 1 l . per week. That refers tn;I Ian a ad Inis wvife alone. I'nst nictions

have ))eii issued to thle depa rtmnimt that mnenin receipt of 42s. and 49s., with sonic ex-cepitions regardingr those in ,-ei-ipt of 315s.,wuill not Ile considered in connect ion wvithwork in tile mnetroplitan a tea. We pointedout to the MTinister that hardship would beinflicted npon ont ,v mien who had no chiila-ren, or even those with olic or two child-ien. The care and love that at man ii ahave for his family is not governed by theinimber of children he has, and such an in-stinetion as that T have referred to is not

ight. Greater ha rdshi p coulld at tinies bleinfl ict ed onl a man with two or three child-r-en if lie "'pie sent 2010 or 300 miles inlandlhan, would hle infl icted upon a man withlive or six children. There niay be sicknessin th liomec or other disaiili ties a makeit extremnelyv inadvisable for such men toIle sent to the country districts. The in-st ruetionms issued to thie depaitmnent mleanlthat men01 in that position cannot hie pro-vided with work locallyv. At tinnes arranzc-mneait haive liecim made vo timat men are notsent omit to the countrv. but they -ale thennrel v a llowed to renmain ii sustenance in

tile mietroollitan a rca and are not consid-i-red when local work is av'ailable. TheM lini 4cr. tol do. him jnu stice, s.,idl that he re-garuil ed tlhe worst treated nien ii, connectionwith IiIhe snsteaaiice scepme were those inrcg'ipA or 14s. It is of little use to thoso

mnIli know That the 'Minister holds thatopiniion, om less, some additional eonsidera-tion i ixtenaded to them. I trust the MNinis-ier wvill seriously consider the advisabilityof relax1 nw those instruc-tions. Where war-ranted, work locally' should he mrade avail-atile( for somle uneei irrespective of the nom-her of children dependent upon thenm. Ikillo%% that could! not hle donie Oii iforrnlv, hut.onl the other hand. I ask that the depart-mnital instnrt ionw shall iiot hie made hard

1502 ASSE-1 I3LY.J

and4 fast. I it, not find faultwijth tine officer, of the departmentIei ise, unde Ir %-civ dilil t cirecumstanices,they itre performinRg their duties tia creditable manner, if there is oiie branchof tile Public Service ojne wvouild not like tohe associated with at the present time, it isthe Uneniployl vnent Relief Department, be-cause of the onerous nature of the work.What I :il finding fault with is the sy'stemhy wich linen aire seait out to the country.'ri 0 olfliers of, the department have to doais they aire told, and the instructions cal nefrom the Minister direet. As the Ministerhas aditited that the men in receipt of 14s.aire the wor0st trlea ted, I hiopie Ie will relaxthe leparitmuentail attitude. 1 suggest thatlie leave the position o peni so thiat thle officers'can exercise their discretion, or the mattercoul([ he left to the members of thle UIncmt-ploytim viv Board. Ini all ont dIiscussions withthe Minister, lie has recogniised the dlissi -

lies of the men to whom I haive referred.,and I trust he will accord them soinic2 relief.

MR. BROWN I !'ingellyi [ 9.30]:.shl d like to knowv whether it is the i nten-lion of the G overnimenit to conttinIue the fartoIabhour sceie. It has been in existence during- the winter months, but there ar ron goodmny anomnalies aissociatedl with it.' For iii-stance, to celtic Iaiier the scelnie a 111:111halto be registered byv the 31st Mlarch. Man~y]lieit were (111gaged by the flirmeiu, but at

Inn veA t (mu ebeine 'gas discontinued. Thoseinen who hadl been engaged did noi come toPerth (mild (]' it not register again, and sothe v could not conne back under the schenie.it was at ver v iusefull seheiiie, for it kept tliemen in thle couln try :11,1d en abhIed Ih lienrluerto get more crop) ill.

Mr. Kcninea liv: Somnetinies the then (lidnot get their par ' frot the farmer.

11r. 13ROXV: Do0 .in know of fany such

Hlon. P. Collier: Y es, there was a manltoiaied Brown.

Mir. BROWN : Thne idea was that thefaniner should snbsidise the payment if liecould afford to do so: lbit even' witimmI thatsubsidyv the inen were very vwellI off. far theyvglot their jitand ;iii 14:r keep. I trust the( oieri'i ent will tolut inue the sceuie, forunder it the tacit remlain onl the farms in-stead of travehi jig about begginhg from houseto honse. Soin& do not want a jab so longas they% can cadge their food, but the general

ln oh' I hen are good ineni, only too witlite4to work, Of course we have to take int(considera tioun the State's finances. I see itfile papjer t ha t there is at likelihood of wart,being found for 2,500 mnen, some of whotiwereC pilt off front the Ha rvey irrigatiouscheine. I appeal to thne Minister Ihsubsidise this schenie again if it be aall practicable. A good mnany 'len %%ill bnabsorbed diirin the halrvest. hb t of coursi

th~at "'ill not ]last indefinitely, und wvithwhea t aid wool at so low a price the farnaetcannot, unaided, afford to give emplloymuentTrhat is the I iglt in which I look at it.

,\rt. \larsliall : A pretty dark light.

Mltr. BR OW\N : We have thousands ifmii out or' work, anud we shall never havcprosperit again until we get our workersback in lo etmployment oil full time tz,il- rate of wages; But thnat time is not yettsight, andicnhl would rather sec

tim mien gettiiig whatever they.\ cali fromt Ill,Goveriment foi' walking onl the farms.

MR. GRIFFITHS (Avoni) [51.36] The(other day I asked the Minister whether htwould[ afford relief to suisten ance mnarriedmcii who, to get out to their work, had tnpay 2s. 6Id. at week for triiisporl. Thwanswer that I got was "Yes.'' The positionis that those miarried mnen aire taken out orthe truck dai N' to their wvork, for- whicl,the ' hinge b pay the driver 2s. 6d. per ;vepo.

Te , aa in, meii have been, sent up) fromPerth ti doa work that could he d]one brlocal unemployed. I asked a question aboutthat, aid( aigain I was told "Yes." TheSingle local iell who go out to this Ojobhav'e to pay' Is. it week tent rent. wvhereasmail sent upl from Perth are given tentallowance. The Minister, iii answer to iny

question, said flint he would see that localmen were given lie work before outsider..T hope the M1inister will fulfil that promise,for the position remains at- it was when Iasked nn' question.

MR. MTLLINGTON ('%t. llawthoin)[0.38]: The ma in business; the relief coi-in ittec of whli ch I tuoi at inernhe,- has done hasbeen wvith tie ulienlplo 'y-ment boarid. Thesecretary, of that board is a higly competentlantoi and as, sympathetic as the regulatioiiswill prmit. Bunt the work of the boa rd couldbe considerably enlarged. All eases fromthe counitryv referred to us. have to lie dealtwvith by the board, and it is niost dilItiult far,

1592

[3 NOXE31BER, 19-12.]15:

thein to k-eoi in touchl wvith the conditions ofwoik, particuilarly piece-work, in country dis-tricts, and the iliquiries they akc do niotelicit the information as they should. Whenthe men who have complained to uts are flues-tioned on the job, 'very often they do niotback tip the story they told uts; they appearto be afraid to tell it to the ispector. WhenMr'. Kenneallv and 'Mr. Mooney and 'Mr.Watts waited onl the Deputy Premier theyev-olved a scheme for the Frankland Riverpiece-work sustenance men. It was that alocal board should 1w established, not so muchto supervise the work as to receive and hearall grievances and assess the value of thework onl the job. No matter how comnpetenita committee sitting, inl P1erthi may be, they,cannot fronm Perth deal wvithi these case.,. Tilefixation of wages is most complicated workfor the Arbitration Court, but the fixationof piece-work rates where tile conditions arevarying is worst of all. In clearing it willhe found that even onl contiguous blocks coii-ditions and prices are entirely dissimilar, Soif satisfaction is to be given to the mein, thesequestions will have to be dealt with onl thespot by somebody wvith. w-thority' to lin'alisethem. It cannot be donie from Perth. Itrequires a controlling organisa ition stationedin. Perth, hut with subsidiary boairds estab-Jished wherever the 'e is a lot of work goingvonl. Many inediviual cast's could be settledouit (of hanld if there were someone onl tilespoot with authority to dcal with gricvanue'sand( the vcsesising of th- value of the wVork.If it is dillN'ult to sp,_ rates4 of pay where-work and conditions a re' nifornn, how muchmtole dificult is it to settle luiee-itol'l ratesfor dissitnilar tasks? Althoughi this matterwasi dicuesed wvithk two Miisesn au-thorit v has been established in the country.The promise wvu made iii respeCct of tileFrankland River ]n.

The M1inister for Railwavs: It was offeredatteout.-,Ct to obtain a settlement of the

trouble, but they would niot agrlee.Mr. All LL[NG'rON: It require., continuous

supervision and some authority to deal withit. I si niot rbeferrnilr to this in any spiritof criticism, for I realise the difficulty' inoi-aiimrn this work. Those who made aillthe fuss and, leaving their work, came toPerth were offered some redress, but thosowho stayed quietly onl the job will notget any' consideration. That is niot right.The men who akcd for this, organisa-tion to be set up should be conl-sidered. Mloreover,. fromt the departmental

poinlt of view it would lie ant advarntatgeWe hmave to remember that in the clearingof land. a., the 'Minister r Works knlows,very few mien have had the neuessar ,v esx-,perience, If there was someone onl tilelob to direct it. it could be regulated ,othat those who bad had c.xperivee coudcoat-h tllose Who wereC lOt lit) to the wvork.Otherwise the men are tuerel v was;ting-their time. Ta king- one bloc-k with an-other, the conlditions are so dlifferent thatit is4 imlpossible to fi~x arrangements [romany distance. A- comlpetent llan tll or leJob could do it an~d could deal with eases3onl their merits, but matil such am organi-sation is set up. thlure willI be compillaintsand dissaristar'tion. Surel v tho work isof, suttlicienit iportalkee to wvarrant thesettiulir tip of' an auithority to deal with itcifectively onl tire spot. Thle hoard, I be-lieve, are doing- their utmost, lbnt owing-to the variety of work and thle dillereuIceof conditions inl variouts patsL of the Statewhere tile jobs, large and small, are beingcarried out, it shoult be the business ofthe Mitnister amil tite board to deal witilthemn effectively, and that c ainot bie doneuinless a subsidiary authority is set uip ill tiledistrict. Periodical vis;its- could be paidby Lmem~bers of the board, [ ut the antllo-rity mnust be onl tile stiot permanently.Otherwise the work wiill riot go on, thwewrill be (dissatisfaction, and thle ilnil willniot be able to give value. Some ffieul haveworked tile whole live days ini order toma ke 25s. Men will niot continue underthlose conditions. Wi th a cnmusIsman11 onl the job, that Sort of thing- couldlie remedied. It tile worker was at fault,lie could be told so, but whlen competentmen complain of iiabilit *v to earn 511-

tellaiee without womkim i p lracticaily thlewhole week. obviously the positiont needsto h.e remedied. I. suggest that the matterbe referred to the board and that they bpasked to report onl thre lirlus of the i)fferma de byv tile two Ministers. ill connectionwith coutntry' work, partieulaly piece workand clearing- work. Otberwiso the com-plaiints cannliot he rectified. Another pain'mentioned to the Prouder and the Min;-ter for Works a loiui tiuiie au", was th-teeatnient meted out hiv country roadboards to sustenailce men whlo were heinzpaid out of money supplie1 by the C~oy-ernlmlent. llt niany insitaimces thlere is nOaward to cover the rate. IC the Pitney

15 9:;

I 511I IA SEl) I . I

were raised[ by the boar1 d, the Miniistercoulhi not in lertere, but vhiei, thle ininvYis Supplied by tile (Ioveriiiel, thtv shouldlitre some I itfluenIce. IVf theY cihose, thi,(:ivntient cotihi influencee thle polic v oCroad boards. ''0 hav e had inistainces ofiiiieii beiing tiiployed, so it Wtis alleged1, ihir;is little as 7s. per daii" i id the ( overn -iit saY they have no ticthoritrv it) tiller

it. When we tomiplained n1i11ny noxithsago to thle Minister for Works,. lie said liewas nlot going to set hiiiself 11iij atn ar-titration coo it over the road hoarid. Lateron1 hie inl'orined its that [litre "ould lie notmoie trouble bevourse thoe was, ino iltrinolter, to be ad vtineed. Mfore inieY isbinig advaltedil a d the sateo evil e.Ixists.

rThe Afii et for Work,: :Adva need hrwhen ?m

Nfr. AVILMING'rON: The oluiiti roadlboards.

'rile Ifliistcr forl Wor!;s 'Not tht(t Iam aware of.

Mr. 'M[LLINGTlON: They are gettingnioiity still are so ievisin, [ile works.'fle lost roinplttint we hail \ra- front theMerrediii district. l o0 IIot ki,,wv What I'-dress thle nieli liave. I know that they ariegoing or, strike against [lie rates p'aid hrvthe road hoard. Whether it was rutid bopiimooney or nioney tid ranied I> tilte Covern-'non t, [ aml inot sure, a ad thle illen were notsure, hut thie Governeiit could inituire. Wewant anl undihiking tliat where alner-is tdvtiil In bltite (overajulent, it) a roailboard. it will he advanced on thle tinder-standing that the board pttv file reC4g-inised rate. That is not askiiig toonul,Whenl nIitey wan ]]ttlde tirtilable F lltht (lovernet it (ild hie ndo tavailtile oil

that condition, and it would be accepted bythe road hoard,. So far the floveritnent hovenot male that condition. Another grievancehtiowtiht i it., friot the cioiiitrY eancetis thetransport of thie mien to andl f ron work. Theseaie siiiall maitters, loiit tile.\ are- importttntfto [ie men,. We hare instances of ade-quiate arrangemnts tot havin- been madtiefor the transport of torn to anrd frot~nwork. in one instance where menwere takinz lttie off and were Core-o w to P'eitht ler had to 1a1- lngefor tiransport for :10 miles because it lhtdbeena iefused hr the foreman. Those "tenlv.cPre working belowv Bovupl Brook stnd haidto maike their own a rrantrements. That wasail expensive iteni for t he men . althoughr

aidmit I hey obtained a coeouessioii onl theialilwav. Thie matter shoquid be arravged;tile men are Justified in asking for trti-port. Those irie miatters fiat eot 1' IIsettled onl the spitl. We cite indlividualncases mitd ran 2'el little sitisfactiuon or it-dress. W~hile on filhe tinesfioii of unteiiplovy-tiettt F wish to know whether the Mlinister,considering tlei approachl of Chlristinas, ealla rran,t for sonie extra mcii for the workinl the countr 'y ditricts, anti] for that inatt~rfor [lie men loettllr. Ca;n they he given aIlittle mnore ti me oil anid ai little less timne off ?Tile Mistei might give tlie matter coitsd -v rai ioil. If it i's establishing at precedent,it will lie 12 months hefore tile cireumi-sI a ies cain rer. Ainofther mlattei is thedi f~eol I tv -on frontill a g th father of a famiilywho is ini reeeipt oii relief for chlildrenunider 14 and who has children orer 14.The lli Cildren over 14 nrc a chairge oin theli id~u or sisteiafle recived. T am notspetikioig of casies whore nelt tire not work-inug for tiir siistetincre. WXhere a main lhaithree c-luild reii under 14 and one over 14. liewill li receiving 35s. plus LL. If lieiworking for his sustenance, the other chili](Quit1 lie included and hie should he allowedLo collect thle extra a mount. We have en-dleavotured to get sustenance for membersof' the family over 14, but now that susten-aitee work is beeotiiti general, the allow-ance could be tradie for time additional childibv allowing, additional work. Thme time haseroie when this matter calit receive favour-tihe considerattion. Regarding, tite chldv el fare policY, T know of definite i nstaticesit un-iht the rate of 9s. per unit per weekhas becit cut don to 7s. T hope the Mlin-ister will give consideration to this aspect.Where a man is working, for soustenance wehave to submit to thle uiniforn conditionsiitiqed bY the( Gioveirtnetnt, but there is atdlispositionl to enceroachl onl the cstalblisliedpractice of I a lug I9s. per iuiit pe r week topeople under the( Child Wel fare Depart-iiieit. tot t hose undler the oineniplovinentrelief sthemite. 'Men whio for at number of'eairs have bee dliwinL- fom their family0' the rate of 9s. have been i-educed to T9.T hope this is tnot general, hut T know ofdefi ni te instances whiere the fathier i- aninvaliId. That should he sufificient to deter-it.ine that the nulitil is entitled to caine under

tilie oiiditiitiN of the Child Welfare D~eport-mei t :tiead reev at [ie rate of (is. Wioa

1594

(3 'NovENrnsn. 19312.1 19

I have. made complaints, thle elyof tilelepatient has ben that they considered

the man wa-is receivittg suifficient aanl thatthe family were being treated reasonably.This is a mnatter uponk wich wve are entitled:o .a defi itti ]).riIOU tientent, and I shonidlike the as"surance of' the Minister that thefrovernioett have niot orut down the ratepaidl hr the lepi'tnieiti fronm Ns to 7s. One.iother mlatter affect,- the Fairbrid-ge Fainm

Sho. Some linme ago T asked a qiuestionladunderstood from the reply of the Min-

ister that the boys who had been brought out,iium11bering, I think, 35. wvere included ill

thle allowancle to the scehool. I understoodlthat was to heC termlinatedr. Now it seemsqto me that it is a general scheme which

i4being colittued.ol We are eintitled to'

know wshether'(the semie of bvinaing outh o tnlliwratit is beiriz -olitilued and ell-

4conrage-d by suhsidisinag thatI instituttio~n al'ill filles past. IS tiot there in ex.istenceeaagr"eemlent regardling mligration ? I do riotknow whether the a~greement wvan annulled,hut migra tioni was d isron tinuted, and wvehave to accept the responlsibility for hail

disciontiinuied it. Stkrel~- that conid lbe dloniealso with regaryd to the Fairhbridge EFarinSchool. - People knjowing how generat -isItrll() lle)I~~lt t amongs11t 0tt1i' h)ors Urt ask-iug why the Govertnent should .subsidise as3i-Tet' for briniig boys firomut[le OWt'oUntr v. rrhe Itoys; wh~o collie nut unlderthat Schmeitt' Are lnt suiperiotr o our Ain-

tr-ahin hors:; as 1 matter of facet they areinferior. The Gofvernment afre cotttininit trthne sabhsidy. whetreals undeniably it couldlbavt' been dliseoutinied4. When I directedIatttention to the. mnatter, f ihid not make anyvparticular fuss ahout it. 1 thought the sub-,idv would he discontinued, big from whAt

1 C-anl judge, froml the recent visit OfBritish represeitative,. it is to) be continued.'It is timte those in chargze wvere iriforweddefinitely that no subsidy wvill be paid 1.trespect of new arrivals. We are entitled toan As'silArance inl that rewrard. The MIigTra-din Agrreement is niot in operation, and thi,.houild not be in operation eitlitel whilst thr

present inem ploymeitt condlitiotis p~revail.'T'le ptkiitim has neven, been satis.Caetorily't'xplaiined. 1 hopi- the matter will be takewtup hir the Glovernmnent. antd that the Min-i~rter will take steps top terminate alii ar-Iralnfelmnent tvherebv' a subsidy% is paid to tineY.armi ehool for- new arrivals. Thre work

or the ulletulIoyitenit board should extendto comiir v districts. It should be directedfr'omi Perth, buut subsidiary organuisationisshould bet set up in] tile Country to see thatthre work izi properly reguilated there.

MR. PTZSSE (lKatnniili) [10.2] : SinceIhave l .i 1 amemuiber of ti s Chamiber I

I iiie V0t' i cii 10lSel ,V ili N II talct W~ithi Ci dir'lof tile Child Welfare lDepartmnent. I haivebeen greatly iicii'-sil hr the wonderfulservice which hias been rendered by thlo~.etxenitlelieia. jialienil al, i thle iniost eritu-ala1111 vital ti jte jill thle history of local unejco-p loyiuenlt. So tin1-1 tirl lilths Cla1 sei sitethe crisis Iiirsi tillih iuponii a that somte menu-hers Ina1 v have overlooiked (t, ilmporta ceoft the parit that haus. beein. IplayeCI hr, theseeo flier IS. No dciii ft thit rli ,iisihi lit jes arevrelievecd very largely bjy the apl)Cntinent (of[ile iineiploymnnet hoard. I wish to rn-know-ledg-e the keen interest that is taket by theolittt of that board inl iliiisering it) thlewaitts of' the im empq oyed. PrdbahI V notmnemlber t thk. Chamber wouild have caredto take onl sucih a job for an.% considleration..it is 4.iiiV of lihe nmost exactilng_ and ditliraltpos11 itis thlii t11 ti ~if.lQ c 1(t 1 he calledt unto till. I have mC)i ket ill conittat wvith t ileothct'is both of the Childl Welfarev Depart-lititn and the Itit'iuployietit Heliel' Board,and haLve [had :111 01l1ipti init 'V to mattke' ou-servatittits. I have lieti greattly, i ipre,;nedhrv tile, 1Vi 1r4'ul jI Ittippe P11c 1b i ted hr iltflbeets towatrds those whlo :ire unfortunateen.iith Iu have to seek canplovzteiit and r-lief , a.nd. haive also been struck by tiw' keentinterest and contideratin exhibited by then.I wvishi to draw attetltion to tin altorationin tlie policy of' tile depar-tment, patrticlahrlys-ince thre work fromt 1-0an1 fulds baai heLiLcarried Out im thet Great Southern districts.D~uring tite acuite period, road boards andunemployment commnittees that were formedwere of great service inl hlijong the depatrt-mienit, and in rendering alsistanceT to thosewhto were thrown out of employmetnt. QuitetI lilt of extra work wsas honuo

utlrtln-er of' thle police forcte. During thlepast 12 inoiil is thley% have played lii imnpor-rant part ini coltintry districts by assistingt he various organisat ionis as well as thre tie-partitetit iii their- olierations. Under the newarrangement [ happen to kntow that the de-pa 1,1iil constiders it nieessarv to diseon-

1595

15!'I lAs- I EM BI,%.]

titiue the subsidies or- sustenance giants thatwere umde to local authorities and commit-tees, hr putting onl to Loan works thosemien who were previously employed tinderthese grants. I hope the Minister will 110.

he too exacting in respect to the nlumber ofmen he sends out of these districts. WeLhave some right to say that a certain mtum-her should be retained locally, because alarge proportion of thle cost of tinenpkiy' -ient relief is being borne by the taxpayerswho live in those districts. It is experctedthat a certain amnountl of work wvill still benecessary there, and caliii hecarried Out onllines, similar to those followed by the ChildkWelfare D)epartmient. I, do not suggestthat all the mren should be kept there, hutfacilities should ho afforded for the employ-mlent Of a, Certain niumbler by the loc11all-

thorities. Some of the iit whlo live in) thosecentres. are not fit for axe work. Many aretoo old, lint they would be fit for teamt workor to drive a grader onl tire roads. The re-sponsibility of finding future work for themwould fall almost ent-irely upon the localauthorities. I endorse the remarks of themnember for E ast Perth regarding the anonm-alies that exist in the distribution of snas-tenaiice. We kiiow that the number of chil-dren in different faimilies varies, as do alsothe conditions under which those fantilieslive. Those who are having the hardest timieare the childless couples, or- married peoplewho have no direct responsibility for chil-dren wider the age of 14. The 14s. a week,even with tile extra fl. that is all6wed foradditional work while the ti are awvayfromt hiome, is insufficient to enrable them tokeepl 1p two homues and pay the rent, a,1swveil as sustain their- wives while the ' area wa y. The average maximum amounit in'thle case Of married nie works out at 34s.a week.

The MIfinister fur Railways: The)' get thatwheni they conic home anid do nothing, justais when they are away.

Mr. PLESSE: They have to he fed whilethey are at borne.

The Minister for Lanids: You cannot emi-ploy some onl full timie aid allow the othersto go without.

Mr. PIESSE: It is very hard upon those,people.

The Minister for Railways: Of course itis hard.

Mr. J)J ESSE: I thought the Glovernmnentwould endeavour to increase the scale ofsustenance in such cases. I hope thosewhbich have been mentioned by- the niem-her for East Perth -will be- looked into.

WXe know there are very hard cases indeed,particularly fanilies with boys and girlsover 14 ye'ars of age who have to hie keptin elotlies and food' and are without ]lop)eof Securing employment.

MR. J. H. SMITH (.Nelon) 1 01.1tflWVhile appreciating what has been done bythe Goverinment, and especially by the Miii-ister inl charg1e of iiieninhoymeiit relief, Iwish to poinit out the hardship imiposed ou

sosof s-ettlers, anld especiailly sons of grouipsettlers. They are debarred from sharinein anyv work available until they reach theage-- of 21 years. It is deplorable to seethe priveation, practieally' starvation, ofvon tug mien in sticeh a situiition-tieii clothesin rags. Could not the Minister instinctthe U~nemplloymnt Board to allow thosevoting( nueo to rec eive Atustenance in the samneWay 1 As rilingy Men in any other walk oflife?~ Again, s;ettlers who take ill virginland are debarred from sustenaince and from'Work alike, on the ground that .rhey arelandowners. The l'reinie- has arrangyed togrant those maen sofie slight sustenancethroigh the Unemployment Board and tileAgricultural Rank. As regards transportfront1 lBoup Brook, mentioned by the nuin-her for M1 t, H1awthorn, transport to thie robis in fact provided. The men finish workoil ThUrIsdayin night, and the train does notleave Bo 'yup Brook mitil Saturday mrorn-tig; bot file departmierit would convey thosemn to their bniues onl Friday. However,the mnen contentd it is more advantageous tothemn to p~a y *3s. to a truck driver to Conveythem onl Saturday morning to Hester,Whence they% proceed to their homes itt Bun-bury or Perth, thus avoiding the expenseof a iiilit's accomunodation eni route. Theease of timber workers' sonts alsio calls forthe 'Ministers consideration.

MR. HEGNEY (Middle Swan) E10.13]:I appeal to the Minister to see whethersornethintg more cannot lie done for meti stillat l3laekboy, who nlow receive Is. per weekabove their- keep. Many of them are menupw-ards of 50 years, of age, and have dloneexcellent servic: .for this eountrn'. In viewor the approach of Christmas the Minister

1 5! it;

[3i _No-Fsmitn, 1032.]

shtinld mtake t, special effort to ti ;oinie-thing more for the meni at Blaekboy'. Tin"-winter mionths proved especitilly trying, tothemn. Their clothes are in veryv iail corad(i-tion. When n inan wants- to wilnr hi, shirthie hans to take it off, wash it, and reinabout ill lii, waixit-orit nintil the shirt is drY.Funds~l were ranised to improve tilhe position,and Iwithi the aid of a donation frim theMev'e.4 full,! somnething was accomnplished.A little time ago the M. inister allowed thosemeon 5s, per' week about their keep), and thinstlhev were enabled to ptui'chase vatriohs Pesen-tia k,-tobaco. p)ostage sltarnips, and so forth.As the irieinlei' for KatanimwlL said. cotisid-eration wins being given by thle Governmenttro thre increase of' smstenanice rates, andit wvas understood that mnen onl 14,;.and 2l _ per week would be ra iedl.Notltinir 1tai beel tionte to date except thatwhenl men are seizE away on various reliefjob~s they receive £1I a week for Slstenvingre.It is difficult for those mien to keel) themn-selves and their wives and their families ixvwell. Man y mnen have beenm out of work fortwo or three years and their-psto is in-deed diffieult. Although we have riot yethad any authentic information, 1 notice fromtime Press, that at the rec4,ent Premiers' Con-ferenevencnsideration was given to the iais-ing of' a Joan of £4,000,000 for Uteinplor-macnt reict, and that Western Anstrillia isto receive ahout £600.000 of that amount.That will not be stifficient to provide em-plo viient for tie men who are out of work.although it will enable those at present1 onlrelief wvorksi to he0 continuted in their- ocdij-jations. There ace thousa nis of men whoWvill riot lhe picedil Pil eplloy inenlt as JI eresult of' the expenditure of that money,is hIch is totally inadeqjuate to mneet the simu*ation. The workles armny throughouit Aus-tralia have looked in vainl to thle Premiier&,Con ferences, and Loan Cou ncil ineeti ngs forthle lImst two or three , xii's, and their hope.;thait 61tlh'ient: niolo.nit would be found to) pro-v'ide work for them have niot heen fulfilled.Their pos ition hams become hopeless. Titview of the low picies ruling for wxheal anldwool, the position 0f the lpastoralists andfarrnivr is equally unfortunate. I hmope theposition will shout improve becatise, with arecovery iii the prices of our sta pie pr1o-duets. additional employment will be pro-vided. At present the coniditiori of the in-ernltlo 'ye'd is distressing. They have losttheir homnes; arid their helongiigos. and thmeoutlook iQ black for themi. The present

social sv;,temn Stands condeimied. it is theboundedi ditty of thle Government to ait leastpirovide sustenance For the Avorkless; arm;',it emploYmlent cannot be found. TInstanceshave been quoted to show that thle sustem-tilee paments aire totally inadequate, anldthe Glovernmrent should increase the amountspayable. There is ranch for the privtate en-plo-yers to (d0 and( if the v desire the eoni-tilnuince of thle present systemi that haserubled thema to make suc~h profit, in t!.epast5, they should make every effort to pro-vide emntplovntcnt. for those who hiay' losttheir- positions during the depression. Ifthe situtrtion is niot reniedied soon, another.Systeml will certaily replce thtat obtaiiningAt present. lmnemnpioyinent is increasig in-suond- of declining and( if something is notflnne to arrest thtat tendency, disaister willovertake the comiluknity. Urnemp'lovmnent isthe 11Lost vital problemn of to-day, andt( it is6:i:e one, 'Minister was appointed to devotethre whvle of his attention to it. It is. true-rh.-t a board has been created to dleal withdetailed work,' bitt that is niot sti'cicnt. AMinister of the Crown should uindertake thaittask and( endeavour to cope with the sitlia-tiou. A-s to thle departmental officers, manof themn are experienced and are carryingout excellent work. Theirs is a dlifficulttask, for they, are reqjuired to adjudicate asbtetwvee'n thle a pplieants and the Government.

fnra aware that a percentage of the appli-cants for relief endleavour to "put it overthemn,' but 90 per cent, of thle men who goto tine depanrtmtent are gertuille in their de-lire to g-ain iformation and the assistancethat their- position warrants. Somne com-pla ints have booni voiced concerning the:

,yoturrgcer officials who have been transferredfrom other depiartments. it is said thattheY do niot extend the consideration tothese unifortunate people that they are emn-titled to. Their coitlaints are direted only

Xgainst thle junior officers because it is recog-vised that the more expeieneed men arec-arrying out a difficult task in very difficultc'iretrmstances. They probably occ-upy flit-least desirable positions. in the Governmentservice to-dlay, for they are required to lis-ten to mnan y tales of distress and mnisfortune,to deal wlith the applications in a fair' andconsiderate mnanner. and at the same timeto) comply with thle departmiental regunla-tions. I trust the 'Minister will see his way(clear to increase the rates payable to thoseIin receipt of tine snlialler amiounts partieu-larlY those who are paid itis. or 25;. weeklY.

l.59S[A SSIBLY REV.

MR. COVERLEY (Kiiherley) [0311 should like to know froml the Minister whyAsulstenance is refused to the tineinid 'oved inlBroome. and whyv no mani in thie northerndist-ricts, ean vet sustenanice for more than aweek,

rfhe Mlinister Cor Railways1: How is it thatthere nrt- unemployed. in Broome?

Mr. COVERLIEY : There are inemploy&eina there, just :as there are in every oiliertown ii 'Western Anstralia. I want to knowwrhy the Mfinister has refused to w-raut anyiinemlIoye'd relief in Broome.

All- Sleeman : I move-

That progress lie reported.

Mlotion put an(i inegatived.

MR, SLEEMAN (pl-eiaiale fa I I ro1.3:;]:When one glances at the Estimates of mi1-('iit1pi~ni'tit anld outdoor relief hie is struckhv the reduction in the vote from £643,000to C300,000. Some say it is due to the factthat a lot of it has been switched over fromthe Revenue Estimates to Loan Fund.

The Minister for Rlailways: That is niot so.Mr. SlYEMIAN : It cannot he that em-

plnYinenit has beeni tound for ai'y numbher,Ilelau~e there arc just as Inill 'ly nemlployedto-day as, there were 12 mionths ago. By"gunemployed" I meanm people out of workoi' working out their sustenlance. Soicl ofthe unemnplo -yed who have been sent awayfront their h101ni4S are worse off thl nOther-sworking out sustela nce.. A uno11ber came tipfrom thie lFrankland River to seek a settle-ment, hut no vttlemiit was effected and soa la rge army of them had to go Without Goev-

ermit relief. 31any have drifted out ofthle city to starve in silenee along. the road.The last request they, put upl to the (lovern-uanut was hr no inicanls Out of tile way, :andwith a little sweet reasonableness a settlveentcoulhd have been rmehed. Why it -was, not

feti'd{d I ia iinot understanmd. The only thing-the men wanted was a guarantee of 25s. 2d.Coi' the, I in days, pei week filey' worked, butthet (hveruojent refused to agree to it. If amnan has to gol away inkto tile vonintrY for tvroday, vst week, fte least hel shouald get is25s. 2dl.

Thne I1Iinists'r f'or Rlail na v.: Plenty of thlnenwould claim thel pay- without having donethe work.

Nlr- SIjRPtMANY: Veryv few qif themn woulddo that. Th(- Minister responsible for theMvyallup antI Stom-ehouse camps declared thatthfe work 'lone by thle men there was eunin-

entlv saris~factor v. Thant being so. hlow canlthe Minister for Ranilwavs sugzgest tha I menin a no rher toia 1 i rvwould riot work $21d earniitheir ni'nev

The Minister foir Railways: It is a differentCrowd.

Mr. SLEEMAN: I daresay the crowdfromn Frankland River is, vomposed of menJust as -God as those who went to Myvaluipand. Stonehouse. Tile M1iiter said s-omietime ago that the men at Myvalupl were outto make trouble. There was at little troublethere, hut still the mn did their w-ork. Whentwith the Leader of the Oppositioni I visitedthose ramips, the first thing that struck intwas the wonderful war in which the mienwere working. There was no Governmentstroke there. ff those mnen would work likethat at those camps, of course the inemi at11ltaiiad. li er would dii) just as well. The

,Nvthulk of those imen would have donethiri work faith fiil V.

Tiej( M1inister for- Vailwayvs: 'Fhe offer hasbeenk ouell inl themii all thle time. You havereadi onl lv oe of thle c'oniditionis.

M\r. SLE .A-N : That is the mil v one( over3whlui ch sou c ouldI disagree withl thIemi Caltlithle Ri iister poinit to anly other condition towvhichliht' would disagree ? The Governmentagreed that there would he uo vietiunsation.

The 2[inister for Railways : We did notagree to that. Vietiunisatioii doe,; niot exi~t-

Mr. MERE M1AN: The Gove rnmen t re-plitdthat there would liie no vietiiiiisationl, 'Iid othey ag reed with that condition put Ill) bythe ii.

The Mlinister for, Lands : It cal tire nextlire.

.1r. SIJEIAN : The reply wa, thierewould hec no victiinisation, bult that the de-partmenat reserved the righit to say wvhoshould be sent to till F-rnad River. Thatcould only' iean that thet (oVeriiincaltwanihi send the remaiinderl to sorn otherwoik juiist as, good.

Ibmn. 1'. Collier: Or. just as bad..r. SIYEM,,AN:. Or just as bad. 1How-

ever, the Glovernment dlid riot agree to it.The next request wvas-

lineta nf' stistiiianee for ft' Pranklaundivr Jill', whiile aegotiationis are taking place

for flte scttleuiiit of tilt Pninikluurl River121(11 s dispute.

A settlemient (ould have been reached in:ii hour, and the incan could have beendesI atebhed that evening to the Franklanditiver. If tile Government had taken (,art'

1.598

[3 Novim3ri, 1932] 159

to enmure tna t thie men received at fair, dealthey would not have left the job).

Thel Minister for Ril Iways: T1heyv didnoit -tart work.

Aft-. SLEEMAN : A lot of theno didstart. The 3[Mitnister knows th at conditionsther ntire a little better than they c were.But for tile attituide of thle n NO.ceased work. thle imp lrovemlent would nothave, been mande. t the nmen are g-etting-necarier to whiat titey shnould he, rneviing.they can tha nk fdr it thle lien whojmarched ou t. in, the Miniister's dlepartinentthere is information that the ien wouldbe living onl cream1 andll fruit. A.\nv how,tie reply to the reitetM for immediateaistenflnee was-

No, their )rc'ioiis ac(tionl does inot justifyVthis.

Thu( trouble (-nunld( haive been settled liythe acee]tanrie of' that request. If theMinister ca:n show n'ythic ug0nreasonabhleabtout it, I shonild like to hear it. The nextrerflest was-

That tintnin utnsuiitanblje for tile uorc aiwlClimiatic noniditio..ns :it Franhiannl River beoite red relief eisc where, nire sui table to their('ildi ti Ot.

I thtink the )Minnister, ill agree w'ith that.The repl 'y was-

Trhis is angreedi to, is% 1treviotisli' a fra ured.

Thie next recijtest Wasq-

That no lonirn simal to.. aked to work inorethiait two danys lwvr we'ek to ean 2.5s. 2.1. as;obtains i, rthe otheur relief P-anit.

'file rep)lywa-The saint- s-uiniitionis wvili riply as onl other

relief works winire liei'ewtnrk a'tagententts

'fie( 31irtisler r*tn,. llaiiwea,iv Whati iswrong' with that?

Mr. Si.EEMAN: If Ohe 2 linister cansenul nt to 3kVenilp anid Stoneliouse and

pa~Y thtemn 25s. 2d., wile tnot treat the menat FranklIanti Rivser in: lesnnl a

IT v send the men down there undier HIPP01 apressioti that tBev- Were gIne to

work for wages and then pt thena on tocontract.

Trhe Alinistc,' for Railwayvs: They weietold distinctly.

Mr. SLEEMAN: The next request was-

t),n aesniutit lnt tint isolritii of FrauknimdEi.r until Ihvt Plistatice fronn Perti., 'vi ask

that tinl, tvnnrl be vairilednlot on tIn', basis tiftwo weeks' cont Iinuots work, wvith four w~eeksOff.

Th at ;, in lieut of two il:1i' tiOrk perweek. [t would amount to thel satint thingfor the G overnmnt -and would not affectthe' inst. 'rhO. rev ,lv of the covernmiaent'as-

Tliis en innot lie agreed to.

rThe nex~t requiest was-'Thlat we hei granted free rnilwzi lauses

trnun tine various tentres froin where tine itnonweore ch-telt fr this relief work.

I nidesta nil that the men are given a re-ui n ticktet for aI sinogle fare. The reply

%"is--

Trhe fales itnNit. Barker of those mnenilttlfor f i first tine will he inet bi' thle

Covernieit fronti the eentres at whtich theowen were pickediliup to the relief vo rki,als isbeing dot now.

'le next requ est wats-

'I'lnat free traiisport lie provided to and frontMt. Hrk ne.

There is niothire ngnreasoadle in that. Whenmen are taken 40 or 50 miles into the bushand their standing-down period arrives,they should be transported to Aft. Barkerfin order that they may travel to theirhomnes.

The Minister for Lands: You do not sug-g1tst that fice transport should be providedfot every mol who wanted to go fin andout

Mr. SLEEMAK : When the standing-down period arrives, transport should Inepovided Ifor a mail wit' wishnes to retan tohis home.

'flit 3 inister for Lands: Those are singleien.

Mri. SLEE3IAX: But do not single inwant to return to their homes at times?Dloes the Minister think they would wantIn. remiain there isolated indefinitely. Theyexpect to goa home periodically to see the irf riends and relatives. Thee' would not wantto g-o into Mft. Barker ev ery day of theivek. Tine reply was-

Tinis wvill he provided when, area are traumsferred for (leiPartiniental P-ne'iieice.

A nother requiest was-

That if men must lie sennt out jnte thiswildernesc, it least aI iedienl iihiir shall hep~ro , dld.

1600 (ASSEMEBLY.]

The reply was- Reply-All rnielica i assistanice cornsidered necessary

wvill he provided.

Thme Minister for Lanids: It had alreadybee,, provided.

Mr. SLEEMAN: The next request was-

W hell picework in1tes are to lie dieteriined,'no"n on tine job to lie enmtitled to elect theirown repiresentativ"es fronm jobs cornlulittee totakUe pa'rt iii the fixing of rates.

The Governnicnt practically agreed to that,the reply being-

in tile event of a 0 ispute anrising as to timevalIuc of work performed, a conim ittee eonl-prisinrg a local farmier, a workers' represeti.

yie a" di a de pia rtinlenta I onlieor will lieaplpoi a ted.

Th'le 'Minister for Railways: We offeredthem that fromt thme outset.

Mr. SLEEAIAN: Other requests and re-lilies were-

That proper store facilities and~~ divert' totime yvarious cainmps he provided.

Reply-Y es.

Request-That tine tetini rail fare debniterd agirnst us

lie wiled off.

Reply-

No; tihis will mnot lie agreedl to, but extrawork will lie prov ided to offset t is debit.

Request-

'Thlat all store'veec debits mavrred throughthle anunrh-oll of ineil he covered biy extrawrork.

Ves.

Riequest-'[llat in.jope'- watier supply lie provinicnl at

all Camps.

Reply-Yes.

lRenquest-

Th'lat the imtter ot c.omnrsationi arid inisuirance vovering thne nemn he stantedl by thne Coy-vI imineart.

'le amount of eoimijenisitioil will It' gov-erinedl 1by tine a mount earned, lot exceediing2)5s. 2d1.

Out of thle "'hole of those requests, t herewas practical lv only one withi wiich theGovernment (isageed

The Minister for Lands: Then why dlidnot the nnr,, goback?

Nfr. SLEEMAN: Because the Govern-niont dlid not agree to that 1particuilar on01.If the All nisi or canl show there was any-tin g unreasonable in the in's req~uest to,hie paid 25s. 2d. for two clays' work, I shouldlike to hear it.

'rle 'Miniister for Ra ilways: That was nuitthle original Claiml.

Mr. SLEEMAN: I know it was riot.The Mtinister for Railways: The one you

cut out was like a bush fire-to, hot forYOU.

'Mr. SLE EMAN : I know what it wa..We (lid not expect aI Goverlnment like thepresent one to aep1 t it.

Tie Minister for Lands : Nor wouI nld youexpect an ivOther Govelnanient to a ceept it.

Mr. SLEE3(AN: Nnowithstradin,- that,it was struck out, thle men, still ieceived a1)1 tnt refusal grn the G overnmnt whorelied upon be ing onl top and able to starvethe amen into subission.

Mr. Piesse: Wonl riot those lien liebetter off than wi'alking albout in suandshoes I

Mr. S LEEM AN: I do not know that theywould. 'filhe hon. member is at liberty toinn ke at p)ractical test by trying the workfor himzself. I have here a letter front ama n at Fraynklan d River.

The Minister for TLands : lPo ,you want5011Wl of flet letters I have received read to

Mr. SLEF1-1IAN: This letter sayvs-

Iwish~ to biring this under Your inotice,hin g you will get 'Mr. Sleiali to have itbiroughit to thle 'Min ister tonatrolling thme snis-term -c ouen here. There is ol.% one generalstore, "'hit i has an niomiololy'. Its prices areexorbit an't, anid its services are rotten. Therewas a wi ncr storekieeper froil Aft. Barker whohuilt a stoic onl the niew% towasite here, butthe olficer in harge wyon)(d not give ),ili a'en im it to traile, so f blieve, which leaveCs uS

ople to be exploited.

T -ali wvell understand that. Tlmi wmm, oneof (he great grievanees with the amen atSto,,chouse. TheIn storekeeper dm1t %%-hnlt he

[:3 Nov1EntuEu,. 1932.] O

iked with the menl, who wvere inldotubtedirY)eilig exploited hy hint

Tile Mlinister for Landls.: The mien arc)nying bread for 3d. a loaf, and] gettingneat at 2ld. to 3d. at lb. for forequarters,sad they even geQt their stores delivered2verv day.

Mfr. SLEEMAN:. The Mlinister is notJiere to know these thing-s. This camie from.tmali 011 the spot.The i11iniSter for Lands: I was there only

lnst week end.

[Mr. J. Hi. Smith look the Chioir.]

AMr SLEEfMAN: These trin are' workingthere, and these are the conlditions ther haveto pit 'Up With,

The MAinister for ]Lands : I could sAmneyou1 it J read sonic of the letters we havegot from these people, who have mioney oftheir own in the "kitty."l

Mr. SLEEMAN: Does thle Mfinishr denl,that there is only one store there?

Thle Minister for Lands: It is bette, thata-c should have inade.arrangeients with thestore for a fixed pric e in order to keep thocos.t of things down.

Mr. SLEEMAN: The men say thyare being exploited. When t visitedMfyalup and %tonechouise I found that thesame thing applied there. One oh' the biggrievances was that there was no coipe-titioii with regard to the sunpply of stores.Oly one storekeeper was allowed to eon-duct business there. f uinderstand thata greengrocer tried to set up businessthere but was driven away by the officerin charge. Competition should he allowedso that the men may make their purchasesat something niear the right price.

The M1inister for Railways: How longdo Yon think such comtpetition would lastI

Mr. SLEEMNAN: For qluite a long time.Thle Minister for Railways: You knoDw

they soon come to aln arrangement. It ishletter to arrange for prices that are ac-ceptable. eveni if it means giving a mono-po l to one individual.

Mfr S LIEZAN: Thle business would alllie onl a cash basis. There would be no"tick." I do not see what is to preventanother storekeeper from starting in busi-ness. If one man is given a monopoly sothat lie eon do what he likes, it is easyto understand why the mnen complain. The

latest order rtumI thle de'partmenlt is thatnso more single mien aire to be given re-lief. They are told to get work elsewhere.JE the IV iiter could tell them where theyc ould find work it would be all right. Iti's inhiunman to say to single Inen, whohave not been onl sustenance, that theyare. to he refused any help. This orderhas gone11 out to thle Various depots so thatin future new singole men osking for directrelief will be turned down. I will testthle feeling_ of the Comimittee oin that sub-jeet at a later stage. Surely memnbers willnot agree that thle Government should donothing for mein wvho are literally starv-ing. T'here are also the boys who have

ust ased thle age ol! 1.4, and wvho havebueen deprived of any; further assistanceoIroni the ('hi ld Welfare Department. Manyof themn are too young to he sent to jobsinl the country. but theyV are told they canget no further relief. Then there is thequestion of mnen wholi are forced to go intothe country on £C1 per week over their suis-tenance. They were told they would getthis Pound over their sustenance on theirwvages, that they could work uip to a cer-fain amount, and their return to theirhomtes with something in the ''kitty'' re-niaining- there tintil the mloney was spent.I. saw a letter last night front Brunswickwriittenm by a mian who had stuck loyally

'to the Goverment, anti had gone awayon the pound a week over sustenance.W\hien lie arrived at Brunswick and startedwork 'he founid that he "'as only to workfor a for tnight on wages, and then hadto go on piecework. HRe wrote to his wifeAnd told her he was sorry' lie had gonethere. and that lie had not joined with hisInates in defying the diepartmnent. Hie foundout that the p)rice the Government werepaying- for piecework wvould niake it verydifficlt for him to earn Ss. a day. TheGovernmient have broken faith with thosewho stuck to them. They are forcing mnato go away. and after a fortnighlt arecompelling them to take piecework of thisnature. By the timie they get anythinigin the "kitty'' a long "-bile will haveelapsed before they have seen their housesagain. Peculiar reasons are advanced byofficers of the department for refusingsustenance. Generally speaking I have,fouind the officers most oblig-ing and cour-teous. but some do give peculiar reasonsfor their action. One man11 told ile lie was

1.601

1002 ASSEMBLY]3

reduiced 7s. a week on the ground thatlie had been dismissed troin Ili- preiousiJob ior geneoral ineonipetep cc. Becauseo111' ilepa rtme~nt told another tha t thiswith it reas)Ii for is leaving- the othes.jolt, hie was revduil br 7s. a wreek. TPhatwas ISlk own sulstemIicre and4 L he si IIgot the sustenance for- his wife aind two)ohld den. HeI was previously working, inthe- gaol. i1t1, as anl inliiiate, but as an"VIIu-ployi'. Ile did not k-nowv of any generalIillron ie~Ienee andI ,aid the onlyv reasoni hewas pirt oil' was that he- wxas dule for anlintreisv iii par. It took the departmenttwo v'ears to find out that he was iem-pet4. 'It is r'idierlous11 to say that ant ,manIl would leave at Job tha t was likely tohe pe-iilieuit inl Order to go back onf] steimnllee. 'it is evidenlt that inl S0ine1 Cases'the officers are prepared to juamp at any , -thing-I inl ord-4er to save a few shillingws to,-their elmploYers, the( (tovernien i. ks tothle st-ingo mlen who have boen refulsedsustemnne, T will directly test the feelingof the0 Committee on the sulbjet.

MR. MARSHALL (Mireiison) [-11.0I. wish to refer to the a9ttitude of the lox-ernielt rzadnztile payment of silstenl-ane being withheld to mnin on the gold-fields. I a'rree with all that has been sidi-)bouit the difference inl allowances to single.'nil married mnen. Thosev win thle voldflelds.1rc 1retling no assRistance whatever from theGoaverunment, and most nwavrrantaible dis-criiminatbion is being shown. Th - taxationIlhat has beis-tiposedl uponl thle p:emoe geni-vral ly appldies as nmchel to those onl the gold-fields as it does to anyone else. Thle tax-paliX'Oi m iy ellectorlt.O hav-e for a Ion"'timle siibsciibed to their locail hospital, and(makze weekly contributions towards its up-keep, and they' , too, are paying- the tax.They have also" to pay the 41/2d. unemplov-mleat lax, and onl top of that they- have tokeep the goldfields unemployed. It isgrossly uinfair that such. Obligations Shouldbe imposed ohl people simply because theyreside onl thle goldtields. I have no faultto find with (lie olers of the department.in1 leuiiift(1. fact, tiley' have Shown theml-selves sympathetic in every ease that I havebrought to their at ten tion - I Ina-c alsfoapproacehedl the Mlinister, lint so far therehash been no response to my request forassistancee to lbe granted to linenliploved oilthe 3tur1ChIisoii g-oldficlds. Apart from as-

sistancee at thle rate of' 10s, per week graitediti a % vi'y v fW I 1051) Mtos no mann~z tter of0relief has been a (forded to tihe, M urehisont

and ir~~i~etile smile1 Ililsitilmouiitailii oilother goiilils. Most Of the goldflelds in-euripiovvl are iocii who have migrated thereiiiserc of work. lIt is creditable to themthat iliex shouild harvecovered distances of600t or 7160 i Ies seeking em i ori nt. 1-av-ing(, reacheil the plce w1here wo~rk "xas offer-

iithey had in tite first instia nrc to) I-eiropon the bouinty, of' tin- mnninnity to supt-port thleml. It is a it ,y that: thle Govermentdo not aIssist 'suchl menl to reami n onl theg-oidticlds. while seeki n!t work. Vci shouldnot he bheniu away Frmi a plaiev wvhere workis available, and broughlt to thle city, -wherethey hare to go on] sustenancife.

The Minister for Raibrar' s : The Only men'iI ofered to lIrinf, hack from Wilmuna were

mien who, I had beeni definitely informed.Nvonlid tot get eiloviiieiil IOnL tim liils,We were not going ito keel) them inl the dear-es-t loealit'y inl thle State.

Air. 31 A SiAL '.: The some amount i)!:Siileoance10 Would4 lie p)aid ill \1 iliiiaN a1S iiiPet Lhr. G1eogra ph ical position ima k-s no0 dut-fri-tnt ini that i-espcet. T know mcii were!vejo-h -il as.: 1iiv re-lit of in ed dm1 examliinati onFor- 1111)10 orinmint on thle i i es, hut tiiat didlint a pply to all the milemi i-xiailued,Thle womien's organisatiois were prepared1to colilii ito towards g-etting tile mnen away.'J'le Mu i,-i-solii goldtielsb get nothing fromllie flovernlini-ult ereelot thle imp~hosition ofill kinds oft taxaition. 'This su)1 -ct wasfullY dealt With Onl thle its-t Supykll Ofthe sess.,ion a l; Oii the Address-in reply, andiit seems a waste of breath to riehate thematter fiurther. Hlowever, I wish to drawattention to a case 'whiob CDine unlder myimotiee recently. There is a returned soldier

with six ehildien wsiio is in receipt of asiiall niihitar *v pension. He has also beenor rec-eipt of sulstena ice, and for a period

the Giovernmient perniitted him to draw sus-tenanle Oil thle uisual basis, excluding anyeenlsiie-itioi of his mlilitary- lpnsion. Atthe end of that period thle sustenance wasreduceed so as to limit the total income toC2 N. per- weeV-inelndiog the mailitary1peiision. That, 1 consider, is ealr ing thymlatter tot extremes. The returned soldieris aI sick man requiring attention, and ther-3is- a possihlility (if [Lis m1ilital- I)VIcison bP-iiir in creavised. 'ri east1 il( tegtoverineut

1602

131 Nov EM iIEIS, 103~2.1 160::

canl do is to ex temid consid~eration to such amaial, who is ac-tuallyA in ill-nestlth.

The 'Minister for Railways: The R.S.l.(-ii hike upl that man's ease.

Mr. NEARSHAfT: We ;ire lt prone tIthbrow time respontsibility on to thle othernIna's shoulders. The whole emn nritva te eardenvouring to excuse themselves forpast aplathy anit are blutming everyone elsefor thle difficult position eon fronting us to.da '. The department wvould act at leasthumanely it' they extended gra-ater eaoa~id-eration to the returned soldier T hav, e re-ferred to. 'file Erauk Ia ad Ri ver diis pu'acertainly revealed It ak of organisation ;,

[o~neil ixit, tIlle depa rtmntal stetivi-ties. T hanve not iny cometuplaint to roalc.against thle depa rtmlenta I officials, for theytire efficient anad have to dealI with most trv-

inwork. It is little wonder that at timesthey v it-( irritable and sometimes even be-cane offensive, although T do imot hold withthat. Inl my opinion, a Minister should beappointed to take sole control of the Imiem-pino'yment priobleml a I,- if tha t were done, lieWcould probably see to it fliat the men sentnut on jobs were alassifled. fr so. wt. wouldnot find aI maim 63 yen's of age, with onearm almost incapacitated. beinmg expected to'work ;alamutsite ItchY Yovung men whoa nil(beena reustotnel to strenuous emnploymuent.That shtows the( lack of 'argonisation.

'[le minister for Railways: You cannotmakie aait eitrl comlaliit uraitisi the dea-pa littental ofleers.

31tr. MARSH1AIJ: I am not doing so.They aire working at haigha speed and have Idifficult joh ito (srrv out. At the same timetile vshaouald elatssif 'r th acilr before sendingthem out to jobs, tor it i. tidiculouts to ex-pet a clerk to work no piece rates againsta navvy "-vho hlas just come (ill ra ilwvay- roa-struotion work. Theirefore, T sax' that thel'ranklaard River di~pnte at least indlicatedthe necessity far sI trteato, rit-iree o f orgsirhi,;Ition.

The '1Mister for Railia vs : I can se'-psi indise comning shortly.

III% '1 S1Al:I do tot aialeaslatidthe' 11initecs iatlerjietiair.

'fle 31 inisti for Railwayvs: Yon caituot.in the( Circumstances confronting its to-daY,handle 1 6,000 amen iithout individual f-asesof hardship a ad mistakes being rioted. Youcannot Say that the position has ben

handled beteri in any ..ahrlc part of Aus-tralia.

Mr. MARSIIA I: T am not suggestingthat, buit I do contend that there should be'little a'Iassiflcatian of the unemployeI. Thativ-;is apparent as the result of the Frank-land Hirer dispute.

'fle MNinister tar I ,a ds: And when we!otfered to take themr awaiy, they begged uslo leave themn there.

Mr. M.%ARSHfAT,,: [ ala ntot arguingwninst that.

The Mfinister for Railways: You knowthat that dlisputte wats definitelv arranged bya gaing of Comnuuists.

.%It. M.%ARSHAL~L: I will flat admit thatsat all.

MrFj. Sleemain: ])oes thle Minister suggestthat two or three men could cause that dis-pate' if there was not same reason for it?

The 'Minister for Railways: You knowthle dispute wvas orsna nised long before it act-tIti ' neciu tred.

Mr. M.NARSHALL,: I will not participatein these accusations regarding that dispute.I remind the Minister that T read a letterin the Nouse ]oi. before the dispute aroseand it showed what was occurring. Menwere promised stores and when the 'y wentdown, to the jell), they ' Lounad nothing L wats,ro% ided. Camps were to lie there, but none

was avail able. One manl had to bin' fourhoags ~o that hie could sleep on them far twoiits uil the stores arrived. Thle teamis

were hogg-ed and the meii were for two dayswithotut food ot tools. T[lit showed lack oforganisn Lion.

The Minister for Railways: That sort ofthing- happened years ago when conditionswere lprosperous.

Nfr. MARSHAL.L: Tf the dispute wasorganised before the men went to FranklandRi .vet, thle indications are thiat there wats jfilation for it. M.%enl do not go down intothat wet portion of the St;ate to suffer eon1-*litions sueh a- the Frankland River nielexperienced, flood God Almnighty! Whatloeg t he 11in ister think the men should putil with?' I know that the officers of thedepatenit can do no more than they aredointr. T know two or three of them andthmey are men of whonm T cannot speak toohighly. The officers are doing their work,well, a ithough at times they do fall foul ofthle unemlployed.

1604 [ASSEMIBLY.]

MR. F. 0. L. SMITH (Browil HilI-Ivanhioe[11.20]: :1 should like to know from the Alin-ister what is the policy of the Governmenttowards unemiplo 'vinent on the Eastern Gold-hields. Nobody Up there seems to knowwhlether single men if out of wvork are en-titled to get sustenance or whether destitutetil tied people call receive sustenanice, ais per-

solis in the mietropolitan aea call. For sometime past we have had ol Lte goldfields 400or- 500 youing men front the imetropol itan'arlea practically living onl charity. I haveasked them why. they (id not stay in themietropolitan a rea wvhiere the.% could get sas-U nit lee, and tile 'v hav"e toldi me t hey ' v eilt lipthere look in agfor work rather than] remainoil sustelance in thle mectroplolitanl area.Obviouasly' those mnl arec geniti e triers, andif theyv flail to find work onl the g-oldflelds,theyv are at least entitled to sustenanace. Aflew position arises onl the goldfields becauseof the finanicial enmergency tax of 41/2d. inthe pound. It has been bruited about thatthis tax is inmposed for the relief of nnean-ployiient, an id consequently ' v ppl oil theg'oldfields who will have to pay the tax areasking, whethier they% will he justified in conl-tinuinig their voluntary assistance to theanaly of unemnployed at present onl thecharity of the coinniunity' . In the past, Iilidlersta aid, an v lman wino land been, ',aletime onl thre goldfield, looking for work wasgiven at shilling and told to get out.

Mr. Sleenin adrew attention to the state ofthle House.

Quorum formed.

2Wr 17. C. L. SMI1TH: Another aspeet ofrelief onl the easterni goldfields is this: It hasbeen the prac-tice for it married lmin indelStittite Ci reut1stau'lee to apply for relief,quite apart from, sustenianfle rel jef, a ad tineclerk of courits and the inspector of policehnd caIrte bla nche to give relief to such ease.But a new systiem has arisen under whichevery app lication for reliet has in) cometo Perth, where at big- departmental officerjudges the ierits of the ease from the corres-pondence sent by tint clerk of courts. Tihenathere is the systemn of applications for rail-way pa~ss A main slufferinlg from at ialig-Mint growth wvns ordered to Perth by thedoctor, and111 an.igents were made for hisreception in a hiospital down here; huzt itwas found that the clerk of courts no longerhad111 authOrit I to issue railway passes, and theapp l ieation had to lie sent onl to Perth. ]Inniaimlher instaiace a wvomni iffi'ing from a

malignanlt growth 110(1 to colle to Perth fortreatmient. Sonic of her friends subscribedthe ncessar 'v rail way fare, and that wvoian,after being successfully treated in Perth,weilt back home illuchl better iii healthl. Butquite recently shte had a recuirree of thegrowth, and it was necessary for her- to cometo Perth again. Ia, support ofl Itr] applica-tion forl i railway pass5, aill particulars weresellt down by the clerk of courts, but thereply wvent back tha t as her- friends hadassisted ier before, they could assist heragaini. Sonic of' those cases need investi-gaIting.

,e minister for. ilways,: I dto not thinkany officer wvould send such a letter.

I 'ri. F. C. L. SMITH: I received thne in-formation front a reliable source.

The Minister for Railways: H1e mighit havesent askiing whether her friends could notassist her again.

Mi. F. C. L. SMI1TH: It might have been

put that way. The inference is the same,namely, that friends had assisted ]le,- in thepast and could assist her again. I hope theMinister will give some information as tothe pol ilv a f ti te Gove rnmieaint onl iinlploy-laenit onl the goldfields.

THE MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS(11011. .1. Scaddaa-Maylaaids-in relply)[11.31]: Mlost of the eases introduced bymemabers hav"e been muatters that might havebeen brought nucldei- notice withoutwaigfor a gealeralI diseussalla onl the Estimates.It is admitted that sonmc of the cases dateats far back ats two years.

11r. P. C. T'. Smlith: If youl are refer-riiagto nae, that does not ap ply.

The lIfNISTER FOR RAiL.WAYS: Tlaehon,. member said so.

M1i'. I". C. L. Smith : [ mlentionie tlhnt thatwas when the woman hall her first illnelss.

,file MITNISTER FOR ]IATIAWAYS:And( that was two years ago. The othereases have been happening since then. In-dividual eases can ea~ily lie broughat uindernotice and dealt with. I say' definitely thatit is not possible to handle unemploymentito thle extent that it now exists with the1119t perfect 0o-ga nisa tion without occat-sioal d iftaculties creeping in involving ano-nialics and hardships to some individuals.It is mnot possible to lay (Iowai a rule whichealn be applied lo every- ease. The easementioned by' the miembher for Mutrchison, ifden Ilt wvila as. an ild ividiiil ease, mi.-ht have

[3 NovEnnM, 1932.] 1605

received different treatment from other easesof a similar nature.

Mr. ans,biouirh : WVhere a doctor issues:1 eri Ificate for a person to go to Perth foranl operation-

Tile ,ITNISTER VOR RAILWAYS: 1have had so much experience of doctor's cer-tificates during- the last two years that I donot think the 'y arc worth the paper they arewritten on1, and I consider that the BritishMedical Association should take some actionwith regard to the certificates issued by doc-tors.

'Mr. Wanslirougli : Surely a doctor-The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: I

am so disgulsted with some of the certificatesissued by somo of out- medical menl that Idoubt whiether the 'y are worth anything.

Mr. Wainsbrough: But a Governmentmedical officer's certificate.

The MINISTER FOR RlAILJWAYS:Wve cannot have Government medical offi-cers nil over the country' . We are expectedto comiply' with medical certificates and theyalre becoming, a farce. They a re put in everydn 'y. It is a remarkable thling that thereis no diticultvl about a n accepting sus-tenaince work provided by the local author-itieN iii the metropolitan area. There is nosuggestion of any sickness or trouble then,but as soon as a job is offered onl reliefwork-

Mr. Wanrshrongh : I am not referring tothat.

The 211N18'rER FOR RAILWAYS: Idin sirinig whait happensII ill ire'grd inodoe-tor, eertiiicatcs, It is thle easiest thing intile world to g-et a (loetor's certificate giving-'reasions whyv a per.,n should not lie calledup)on to do thmis class of work, or whly heshould not be sent there or why he shouldlie kept -somewhere else. Wve should take atband in order to get the matter dealt withon am different basis. I am prepared to ad-mit that thre department probably (10 nottake the view that could he taken if we hadone officer for every individual who was outof work. Wve have not officers to that ex-tent, and eases have to be dealt with in theaggregate, and they have to be dealt withonl the basis of fairness and justice to thewhole of the people concerned. In the cir-cunistiiues it is not possible to obviate dif-lin-lty aris ing occasionally. The generalpractice would be adopted in those cases.Individual eases such as have been amen-tiorned to-night would be investigated by the

(61]

department, and there was no need for mem-bers to wait for the general discussion onthe Estimates to bring them up. I will geta copy of the " .Hansard" notes next weekiwcl send then) to the department and havethe case, properly investigated. On theqjuestioin of policy, there has been 'to inater-it change during the last 12 mniothIs or iiirecent months. There has lbeen no differ--lite on the goldfields, broadly speaking. Onthe goldfields there is better evidence ofprosperity than anywhere else in Australia,and there should not hie the same need formaintenance for unemployed. If a manlfinds himself permanently out of work onlthe goldfields, should not he make applica-tion for a pass to go somewhere else? It isnof easy to remain there if he cannot getwork.

Mr. F. C. L. Smith: He cannot get apass.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Toget work onl a mine be has to pass the labo-ratory test. That is one of the first essen-tials. Quite a number of men go to the gold-fields inl the belief that they will be able topass the test. When they cannot pass, whatis the use of their remaining there?

Mr. F. C., L. Smith: They have to walkiomit.

The MINISTER? FOR RAILWAYS-.They have not.

Ar. F. G. L. Smith; Well, let us knowwhat they must do.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS&Tihe men know that if they cannot get em.

1pIoyritl over a period, they earl akettiph-atiorr and we will shift thorn to wherework is available, the same as we do forien living, iii the metropolitan area Surely('hrt is no point i maintaining on thegollfields, week after week and month aftermonth, at manl who cannot find work there.Inl J)faces like Kalg-oorlie, Boulder and W"il-11 nit. livinhg is costly.

MrIt. Coverlev: WVill you apply that prin-ciple to thle North-West?

'Ple MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:Whben mien wilfull 'y remain, when they makeno effort to get out, they may he doing justas well as they could do elsewhere. I livedin Kalgoorlie and Boulder for a number ofyears, and I know how charitable the gold-fields, people aire. When a man is in con-stant enmployment, he never worries aboutpassing- out a shilling to someone who isdown anrd on t, but a manl has to make manyshillings to get up to the basic wage. The

1606 [ASSEIMBLY.]

community should not be called upon toprovide for mien who inisist upon remnaining-in) a place where they cannot get work.There is olpportunity for those men to getrelief work if they will accept it. Other-wise they will not he granted sustenance.I was not aware that there was unemploy-inent inl Broomue. If there is, we shall tryto deal with it iii tile same way. I do notthink it desirable to keep men idle in ap~lace like Broome for any length of time.Bather than pay them sustenance to remaininl Broome, we should put them into dis-tricts where the cost of living is lower andwhere the conditions are probably moresatisfactory fromt the point of' thle peopleuneol ploycri, and find them relief worksuch as we are providing for others. I pro-pose to lay on the Table at a later stage athart showing the fluctuations iii the 46conmodidties, grocer-ies and foodstuffs, ill-vestigated by the Commonwealth Statisti-cion for the Perth mietropol itan area in 1912and 1931. It will give members a graphicidea of the a non nt grn ted by the Chl dWelfare Department for those y'ears iii re-lation to the cost of those commiodities.They will find, notwi thstantding all that hasbeen said, that when there was a markedincrease in the cost of commoodities, thefirst increase was granted by the Gov-ernment of' which I was a nicmnber,end it has been maintained since, not.withestanding that there was a high peakin 1921 and a low point in 1931-32.That has to he taken into account. If wewere justified in inereasing tile a] lowvaneewhen the prive of coal niod i ties went up,wve shiould give considera ti on to iniakingfreduetiot is ill thle all owan :ce when pricescome down,. We nave been p~rovidilng, ;t-loivanees onl a basis wichel is not at all adisgrace to this SItate a:s compared xvithlthe rest of Australia.

Mr. Heg-ney: .Is there ;ay possibility ofincreasing thle allowance to the mien, atBlackboy at Christmas timeo?

Thle MINT ISTER FORl RIiWAVS: Lcannot commit the Government upon thatmatter until the Pr-em ier retuirns and( weknow what funds will he a vailabhle. Eachyear we have tried to give at little addi-tiontil wyork to provide extra cash for allmient engaged onl relief work, a;idl( to theMen Onl sustenface, daring the Christaiasperiod. Ido not think we will fail to (10that this year, but I dto not yet know what

the chances will be. The men at Black-boy are unfortunately situated. It is notinl tile public interest that we should dis-cuss the matter too openly. There is abig percentage of men who at the momentcould not take work of any nature. Itis uinfortunate. They are provided withireasonably decent accommodation, theyare sure of shelter, anid have nothing-to do hut to keep themaselves and theirsurroundings cglean. They are wvelt fed,andt haove is. a week in their pockets, andntO quiestions5 are asked of them. If thatis not fairly good accommuodation, takingthe titnes into consideration, I do not knowwhat is. Of course they cannot go onpermanently onl that hasis and prohably itis desirable to give them something addi-tional during the comting festive season.

Ivwill see howv far we can help in thatdi rect ion.

Mr. J1. 1-. Smith: What chance is therefor sons of mnen in the country?

The MINISTER ["OR RAVILWIAYS: Forsortie reason everyone imiagiines it is aLlegit[inmate thing- to do to impose upon the(ioverunment. I believe there are peoplewho tire in busainessi to-day trying to keepat sin il iing face although they are having atremendous struggle to get through. Then:,are inen with families who have nothingto do, and they all hate the idea of goingonl the. dole. We have to consider themonl the basis of being- people in business incompetition xvith other,, who are also inonsaless. Take the vase of those who in-dulge iii river lising. Appiroximrately106 lneon are makling a living on the Swvanjive:. one ofthose mnf w iillI say lie is

ntminLg a Ii vin%- :ill( put in a requestfor more sust engnlec. lie "vill say hi tterlythai lie does not see why lie should putin his net, although hie inay be gettingliup to 42s. a wveek. He says '"Are younot allowed to earn something above thesustenance'' He would he informed thathie could do so, but that it would be im-pos5sible to check ap his, earnirgs. if such,a main could start off on Mondav morningwith his nets and 42s. inl his pocket, whatwvould happen to others %%-ho would havenoti i to start wi th onl Yonday m orn-ing? It wvouldI be u~nfair to theim:. 011':ntan sayvs lie is mak ing 10s. a week. We1ai'. "If' o, put vonur nets il n ore often,and give th. otlier fellow at fair run.''Other peole make every effort to mnain-

[3 NOVEMBER, 1932.]10

tii their o4wn fam11ilies it] tile l1iO~O thattite*r it-i-y title over thie trouble. How arewe to decide between one class of personsid another? Are we to have a number

of inspectors aurliting the hooks of thepeople who are in lblsines:s? t is pimafacie evidence, if a man is carrying orant' Form of busiiness, that he ought tobe able to provide for himself, IC not,it is not a ease of being unemployed. Thetian wdin cannot get through n the land,And rerilire9 assistance fromn the r-ovcrn-.iiteit, should go to thme department con-cerned and not to the UntpometRe-liof' Board for the dole. The first rospon-siiit v )is the, famil ' responsibility. TheFather is responsible for his children inthe" first place. and the clmildrcii are re-sponsible for their parents in the secondplace. The whole community is only bear-ing the burden wihichi properly belongs tothe family. If there is the wherewithal,available the family will obtain it Oncea settler is allowed to get sustenance for,his childenj other people will want thesatlm thing. If we eottld say defiitel 'that every man ill be honest. that hiscase xvoald not Ineed the closest. orinvestigation, that we could rely ab-solutclv 1113011 eve;ry s-tatemient thasWas Made, wve could keep half again 6.s11any' Vn iemployed and save a lot of momievii. the process. Imagine the Governmentkeeping an armx-' of inspectors and detec-tives running about to investigate casesaIncih arise fromi anonvymons letters! Theretirc people who will znt sign their namesto letters dra wing attentionl to the fact thatlpcrsons are not entitled to receive susten-ance. All this would have to hie done atthe cost of thie country. In these matters,e, pecially' in these times, people ought to,br honest in all their dealin was. Every easewill be dealt with on its merits. If appli-cation is made from men in the country,and we are satisfied that an y mnember of thefanil v is in want, because of the conditionsprevailing, we certailyv cannot allow thosemembers of the familyv to wvant any morethan we c-an allow anyone else. Where aperson is earr n- ott a businiess it must heacep~lted definitely as pumna facie evidencethat the business, if it is still being carriedon, is keeping that person. Individual caswill lie investigated, It is not worth whilediscussing the Frankland River men. I

sayv no-4 earncsth' if I thought the menvho walked out of Franklulid River were

reall 'y anrxious to go back, and do a fairthing. b)y time community, which tried to 410a fair thing by them, I would not hesibtlto give way a1 little in order to arrive at asettlement. But I (10 not think they arcan1xious to go back. I believe a fair per-centage were never in earnest, that theywent omit definitely to cause trouble anddifeult-'. T know from a recent investi-ization that there is definite evidence thatihey hpgan to orc'anise before the men goitthere. They took one mn from the Southi-WVest, and arranged with hini to go toThanktlaud River to start a (20,ninitiitieaqitationi.

Mr. Sleeman 0 Yu illSt have played intotheir hands.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Tdlid so quite innocently. It is deplorab'cthat, without a head of inspectors and de-tectives, we cannot trtust people to do theirduty as citizens. In the circumstances theyar niot entitled to mutch eonsidcrationuNotwithstanding all this, I am stilt preparedto give themn consideration if they are inrent earnest. I ask the member for Fre-mantle to accept my assuirance that there i..no desire on the part of the Government tohrc vindictive. We want to do justice tothem, hut tiley do owe a duty to the Gov-em ma en t.

Mr. Sleian.: I believe the matter couldhev settled quite easily now.

Tie MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ia1ni Just as anxious about the matter as any-one. Because T ini frank and sometimesbilunt. T et misunderstood. I am not goingto stand any monkeyfing. It is a duty I oweto the community as a whole not to standsuch a thin. While I mayv he preparedsometimes to give and to take, I do contendit is due to the community from those mento whom the community did justice that theyshould show consideration and treat the'commiunity- honestly and truthfully, andiavoid causing unnecessary trouble.

Mr. Hegney: 'What are you doing aboutthe men on the lower amounts, 14s. and21s.?

The 'MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ihave the matter ready for submission to theTreamurer upon his return, and am hopefulthat something will be done for the 14s. and21s. men- Let me point out that the sus-

160 7

[ASSEMBLY.]

tenance juaxiinn of £2 Ds, is only aboutat guinea shiort of the present basil ae

The irian onl 1 4s. is, no dout, in a ver'yunfortunate position as compared with theman onl £2 As9.; hut with the latter it is aquestion of getting the £2 As. when hie work,wxhereas the other manl gets thle mlonleywhether lie works or not.

Mr. Sleemian; There is one importantmiatter to which you have not replied, andthat is the latest order of the Government,that no further single men are to be placedon sustenance.

The INISTER1 FOR RIAILWAYS: Itis not intended to provide sustenance anyfurther for single men. They will lbe regis-tered for work, and will he offered -workwhen it is available. Single men are beinglargeiy absorbed, though there may be diffi-culty occasionally in getting them work. Therule is not incapable of being varied. Wehave, in fact, varied it, However, it is notintended as a rule to put single menOnl sustenance. fusteadc of beingplaced onl sustenance, I repent, the 'are to lie registered and given work.There is niot a proper conception of theresponsibility of the citizen to the Coln-ninnity, while there is anl adequate concep-tion of the duty of thre community to thecitizen. No one ever suggests what responl-sibility the citizen owes to thle comimuity.1f previously gave an illustration where aill, stepping off a t-aneam, boasted of liar-

ing avoided payinrg his fare. He has, in fact,robbed the mian to wvhom. hie is telling thlestory,: but lie does not appreciate that civ-cunistance. Those who have been inl closetouchl with the mnatter know that there areniot single eases, hut niumerous csses,, wheremen have deliherately left work which theymnight have followed, because they thoughtthey would get a holiday period, workingonly a couple of 'lays per week instead ofworking continuously' . A case hras beenbrought under my notice where it wasimpossible to get a married couple to go to thecountry a t a wage of £3 a week and found,which is not too bad under existing condi-tions. Single men arc niot as a rul e beingaccepted for sustenance, but are lheingreg-istered for relief wvork.

Itemn, Incidental, £3,400:

Mr. SLEEMAN: What the- Minister hasjust said does not apply merely "as a rule,"Freinantle has recived the definite instrue-

tion that, no mnore s9inlle mielnare to he putoil slistenaircev. At the last pick-nll of 5isiliIneca, the're wvere, nin4e lilen ,Iltifriii~g thanlwerne pickied ii p. A fe tie invi enot pieked illPto be told Ilher muv sn1iv4

The MIinister for hiailwav, s: Aie still moremen01 Coining inl to youI?Mr. Sr2EEMAN: They arc always coining

in.The Mlinister for Riailways: Where from?9Mr. SL.EEMTAN: Pri'on around the district.

They are single men whose piarents were ableto keep them, or sing-le men who, having gota fewv shilling-s tog-ether, haive never appliedfor- sustenance pr-eviously' , and ought to hecomplimented onl that fact. Are we to sayto them, "You can dlie until tine Governmnentcanl give N-1 a 'joh, anid When t]he Govern-mnt can give you a job you can live"?There is thle definnite order that no moresingle ineii are to be given suistenance. 1.fthle 'Minister cannot give anl assucaince thatsomething will bie done for these single unenuntil woik is available, other- stepis will haveto be take n.

Thle Minister for Railway's: Representa-tives from Frennantle aure coining to see mecto-morrow abouit the matter.

Ilr. SLEEMNAN:- r left fErennantle at half-past five, aid .I did riot know anything abouttha t.

The MNTinister for Riailways,: rhor tele-lplioned me only about an hiour ago.

21r. SIXfl'MAN : lIn those cilcunistances Iwill let the imatter go.

Vrote put and p~assed.

I cite - I'memplogment Belief, £1,7-agr-eed.- to.

Progress reported.-

House adjourned at 11.5 p.mn.