Symp_2010.pdf - The Public Interest Law Center

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FROM VISION TO RESULTS

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3 "A Quality Public Education For All-the Uses of

Law to Translate Theory Into Practice"

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A SYMPOSIUM PRESENTED BY:

6 THE PUBLIC INTEREST LAW CENTER OF PHILADELPHIA

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THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 2010

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10 HELD AT:

11 The Arch Street Meeting House

4th & Arch Streets

12 Philadelphia, PA

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COURT REPORTER: Laura A. Jimenez

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VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY

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1801 Market Street - Suite 1800

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VERITEXT NATIONAL COURT REPORTING COMPANY888-777-6690 ~ 215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510

1 SYMPOSIUM - SEPTEMBER 30, 2010

2 MR. JOSEPH: Welcome. Welcome.

3 Welcome to the third annual symposium sponsored by

4 the Public Interest Law Center of Philadelphia,

5 commonly known as PILCOP. Not PHILCOP, not

6 PHILCOR, not PHILCORP -- PILCOP.

7 So we, the lawyers and staff of

8 the symposium, the staff and I -- as the symposium

9 chair -- welcome you to our day discussing the

10 plight of urban education and what we can do about

11 it.

12 Michael Churchill, our prior chief

13 counsel, and Jenny Clarke, our present executive

14 director -- and I consider her chief counsel,

15 although I don't know that we have an official

16 title for her -- were pressured in their choosing

17 of this subject and in this timing.

18 You need not be a follower of

19 MSNBC or even NBC to know that education is one of

20 the foremost issues confronting the country today.

21 In the past week alone, you may have seen

22 headlines in the papers about President Obama

23 discussing the subject of education in the

24 nation's Capitol, where a mayor was thrown out of

25 office probably for doing the right thing about

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2 education, or the headline about the Brookland

3 School District in Massachusetts suggesting larger

4 schools, contrary to the Gates Foundation premise,

5 can be just as good as smaller schools. And you

6 would not have to be focused on education to know

7 of a documentary by the producer of the

8 Inconvenient Truth, to know that watching Waiting

9 For Superman is about to come onto this planet.

10 Were you to be an MSNBC junky,

11 like my wife and I -- like my wife and me, you

12 would know that Morning Joe produced an entire

13 program in the evening last Sunday on the

14 documentary, Waiting For Superman, and a two-hour

15 program followed, and that every morning this week

16 he is focusing on education.

17 Mayor Bloomberg, on a program

18 about a couple days ago said, "We do not need to

19 end poverty to have better schools," the theory

20 that we have to change our poverty situation in

21 order to have schools that work. "Instead," he

22 said, "we have to have better schools to end

23 poverty."

24 The context of this present focus,

25 the -- going back to the real beginning,

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2 now-Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan was

3 criticized -- get this -- criticized for being the

4 law clerk to Justice Marshall, maybe only one of

5 the greatest trial lawyers in this country who

6 went into the south and got juries to change their

7 minds, even though they were racist and against

8 his clients. But he also won something like

9 90 percent of his 30 or more cases before the

10 Supreme Court when he was with the NAACP, and he

11 engineered the Brown decision, which is really

12 where this story begins.

13 In context, for the next ten

14 years, all deliberate speed meant very slowly.

15 The Civil Rights Act of the 60's did speed it up,

16 but was quickly turned around when the Supreme

17 Court of the 70's essentially stopped busing and

18 integration really became, ironically, another

19 kind of equal but separate.

20 So I'd like to just remind you a

21 little bit of the case law and then take you to

22 where we are today, why we are so honored to have

23 this organization putting on this topic, and why

24 it is so qualified to do so.

25 So right after Brown -- or I

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2 shouldn't say right after, but in the 60's,

3 California said, the equal protection clause of

4 the 14th amendment applies and funding has to be

5 balanced across an entire state. The Supreme

6 Court Rodriguez, in the early 70's, with Justice

7 Marshall writing a fabulous dissent, if you want

8 to read something very memorable about the need

9 for education, said that they would not get into

10 education.

11 So it became a state problem, and

12 New Jersey, early on, decided the Abbott case

13 under -- well, it was under a different name,

14 Robinson v Cahill, and they said that under the

15 "Thorough and Efficient" state constitutional

16 clause, one identical to Pennsylvania's, that they

17 should involve themselves; and today, the Abbott

18 court -- schools, are funded more -- excuse me --

19 better funded than or as good funded -- as well

20 funded as all of the schools in New Jersey.

21 However, despite New Jersey and three other states

22 deciding under the same clause, Pennsylvania took

23 another route.

24 PILCOP, in 1993, intervened in a

25 moribund suit, a public -- a Pennsylvania Housing

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2 Commission -- excuse me -- Pennsylvania Human

3 Relations Commission suit that was going nowhere

4 having been started 23 years ago. They quickly

5 joined the State, the source of real money, and

6 Judge Smith issued an order, Judge Smith-Ribner

7 who will be honored tonight, issued an order for

8 tens of millions of dollars.

9 The Supreme Court of Pennsylvania

10 used an extraordinary king's power and reached

11 down and took PILCOP's victory out of the Courts

12 and, in a subsequent case, very similar, but

13 brought directly against the Commonwealth, they

14 said the issue, unlike New Jersey, was not

15 justicial.

16 But PILCOP didn't stop there.

17 They went over to Federal Court and they tried

18 under the regulations of the Education Act and

19 they won in the 3rd Circuit and they won in

20 discovery. When the Supreme Court came down with

21 Sandoval, a case that said Congress did not

22 approve of these regulations.

23 Now, if you follow Supreme Court

24 decisions in recent years, you know how

25 restrictive Congress has gotten with these

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2 remedial statutes which are to be construed

3 broadly, and yet they are construing them as

4 narrowly as one can.

5 So PILCOP is at the forefront of

6 this movement. They have continued to today, last

7 only in 2009, they had a historic order requiring

8 the school district to comply with the five-year

9 plan.

10 So here we are today. You are in

11 for a treat because the preeminent law center for

12 system change in this community, and I would argue

13 one of the very best throughout the nation, is

14 going to be educating us all.

15 Before enjoining this day, I want

16 to thank -- I want you to know that the seminars

17 will be coming in over the next year, we will be

18 focusing on environmental justice. So reserve

19 your time now for next fall when you can again

20 receive six of your necessary 12 CLE credits with

21 a wonderful educational day. And I hope they will

22 have me as a chair again for one reason: I love

23 that we're full here, but next year, I want people

24 in the balcony.

25 So with that, I am going to -- one

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2 other thing. We're also very fortunate to meet a

3 second goal that I set for this time, and this

4 year, the speeches will not go into the air of our

5 memories. They are being recorded by a court

6 reporter. Raise your hand. Thank you, Linda --

7 it's Laura. And they will be published in the

8 Rutgers Journal of Law and Public Policy,

9 ironically, where Michael Churchill and Jerry

10 Walter were authors of articles in the very first

11 issue four or five years ago.

12 So with that, Michael Churchill

13 and Len Rieser -- or Len Rieser -- excuse me --

14 are going to be taking over from here. So thank

15 you, Michael and Len. Let's get going.

16 (Applause.)

17 MR. CHURCHILL: Thank you. Len

18 and I thought that we would set the stage for

19 discussions about quality schooling that we're

20 going to have later today by looking at the legal

21 framework, which deals with the quality of the

22 conditions necessary for quality, including

23 resource availability.

24 So we're going to do a little bit

25 of a tap dance with each other back and forth on

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2 this, and I'm going to start for a second just to

3 review what Don has reminded us of. The top of

4 the legal pyramid in this country tonight stays

5 constitutional. And in, really, a terribly

6 historically inaccurate decision, the Supreme

7 Court, in Rodriguez, said that education was not a

8 fundamental right in the United States.

9 Although, you have to understand,

10 both in Brown and in the immigration case, the

11 pirate case subsequent to Rodriguez, it did say

12 that access to education was necessary for any

13 adult's well-being, but they were not going to get

14 into the thicket of school functioning or -- or --

15 and they have, indeed, stayed out of it. And as

16 Don told us, that has pushed us into the State

17 Courts and, in Pennsylvania, at the stop -- at the

18 top of the pyramid is the Pennsylvania

19 Constitution, which says, "the State will maintain

20 a thorough and efficient system of public

21 education."

22 That identical clause actually

23 produced a cornucopia for which Michael is going

24 to be a superintendent in Trenton, who will be on

25 the program -- the panel right after this, but in

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2 Pennsylvania, it produced nothing. The Court

3 said, essentially, we don't care that other states

4 find this justicial, we won't because we don't

5 think -- at least this was the articulation --

6 that this -- that there's any manageable standard

7 by which to judge whether or not the education

8 being funded by the legislature is thorough,

9 efficient or adequate or whatever other word you

10 wanted to use.

11 One of the questions that we all

12 need to think about is that case was in 1999,

13 before there was any adoption in the State of --

14 of standards, as we'll hear a little bit further

15 on. We now have them, in theory, anyway, and

16 we're producing more every year. So, in 2015, I

17 think it will be, we will actually have exit exams

18 that students need in order to graduate. Does

19 that now give us a standard to measure whether or

20 not schools are actually performing in a thorough

21 and efficient manner? That is still unresolved by

22 anyone known, as yet, who brought that case in

23 Pennsylvania. It's waiting to happen.

24 But the result of the inactivity

25 of the Court is that we still have enormous --

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2 enormous -- inequities in funding, even though the

3 State legislators have begun to peck away and

4 they're making some changes in the system, but we

5 have 5,000, 6,000, 7,000-dollar differences

6 between what students have -- what Philadelphia

7 has to educate its students in its state.

8 So let's see how that plays out,

9 what the statutes tell us that should be happening

10 when a child actually goes to school.

11 Len, do you want to tell us who

12 we're going to be following today?

13 MR. RIESER: Well, first of all,

14 would someone remind me afterwards to buy the 1.75

15 reading glasses in case I ever find myself in this

16 position again.

17 Michael and I were assigned the

18 task of covering the framework of education law

19 in, I think, 25 minutes. I don't know if any of

20 you would prefer to do it. It's kind of a tough

21 order, and it's especially difficult surrounded by

22 people who know a great deal more about this than,

23 at least, I do. Welcome to all of you and this is

24 a little scary.

25 So in order to take sort of a

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2 quick pass at it, Michael and I decided to try to

3 tell a little bit about a story of a hypothetical

4 student in Pennsylvania. We've named her Jenny.

5 And we're just going to sort of follow her through

6 the day and talk a little about kind of the legal

7 environment that she's living in as a student in a

8 Pennsylvania school.

9 So we start with her getting to

10 school, and these days, it might not be a current

11 neighborhood school because there are more options

12 now. That's one aspect of the legal landscape

13 that's changed. There may be some degree of

14 choice among the schools in her school district.

15 We're seeing more of that in Philadelphia.

16 There are -- there are charter

17 schools, not necessarily convenient to where she

18 lives, but maybe. There are a lot of them now in

19 Pennsylvania and in Philadelphia. There are

20 private providers running schools. There are

21 schools with special opportunities, and there are

22 more of those now than there used to be.

23 There are cyber schools, both

24 charter and some, surprisingly, may have school

25 districts that are in the business of developing

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2 cyber programs. There may be vouchers. I don't

3 think we have time to get into that subject. And,

4 of course, there are sort of privately purchased

5 schooling arrangements, private schools. There's

6 homeschooling and so forth.

7 But if we sort of stick to the

8 public field, on the one hand, I guess we could

9 say that this kind of proliferation of new

10 arrangements in boxes and containers for education

11 is, you know, only -- at best, only a part of the

12 answer to anything because just changing the

13 boxes, changing the structures may not change at

14 all what goes on inside and, in fact, perhaps if

15 we get too distracted with changing the

16 structures, we may never get around to what's

17 going on inside.

18 But, on the other hand, choice

19 can't be a bad thing for students and families.

20 And one thing that I think has sort of happened

21 for us lawyers -- and I think it's for public

22 education -- is that there are a lot of good

23 programs out there now. Some of them are in

24 public schools, some of them are in -- some in the

25 traditional public schools, some of them are in

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2 charter schools, some of them are in other places,

3 but we have a lot to point to now in terms of what

4 can be done successfully with -- with kids in

5 cities, with kids in rural areas, with kids in

6 other places. So there is an opportunity in there

7 for all of us.

8 I mentioned to Michael that I sort

9 of was thinking back to the days when we, in

10 litigating special education inclusion cases,

11 would say, well, yeah, we have all this law, but

12 we can't find a single example of a -- of a good

13 program. Well, now, there are a lot of examples

14 of good programs.

15 And so, all right, in a sort of a

16 roundabout way, we're back to Jenny. Jenny's got

17 to school. We'll assume it's a neighborhood

18 school. And we'll go from there.

19 MR. CHURCHILL: Well, I guess one

20 of the questions is, who's at school with her?

21 And they can be neighborhood children. In

22 Pennsylvania, we tend to use the catch-in areas.

23 We know that there's a great deal of ability to

24 manipulate those catch-in areas. We just had the

25 Lower Merion School District Case testing, when

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2 you do it to try and balance out the racial

3 numbers in between schools, whether that is legal

4 or not.

5 But there are a lot of other

6 things that control the number of -- or who else

7 is going to school with you. One is public

8 schools have selection devices. There are tests.

9 There are controls over whether there's enough --

10 whether your attendance has reflected the

11 appropriate character. And the -- there's -- I

12 would guess, almost a third of the students in

13 Philadelphia go to schools which have some

14 restriction on who can attend that and get into

15 that class.

16 The scope of the integration that

17 we have by race is pretty stark. We still have

18 60 percent of our students in schools with

19 children, 90 percent or more, of one race. We

20 don't have a lot of economic diversity, but we

21 have some. And, again, there are schools, 95

22 percent of the students are in poverty. But we

23 also have schools where that is more spread out

24 and more integrated, both on the poverty grounds

25 and on the race grounds.

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2 And the questions that need to be

3 addressed is, to what extent do we need to be

4 concerned with those issues? Are those

5 controlling about whether we're going to get

6 quality or not? Or are those things that schools

7 should just deal with? That's, I think, one of

8 the issues that we're going to talk about: How

9 should they deal with them when they see them?

10 But there are other things that

11 separate students out and one of them, perhaps, is

12 language. Len?

13 MR. RIESER: So, Jenny, in her

14 school, may be in a school with immigrant

15 students. That's certainly something that's

16 increasingly possible in Pennsylvania. Numbers

17 are rising. This is an area that we've done a lot

18 of work in and it's an exciting area in that the

19 law is reasonably strong about what kids are

20 entitled to in terms of help with learning English

21 and help with content.

22 The enforcement of the law is not

23 so great. We have a kind of weak structure in the

24 State Department of Education on this issue, as on

25 many others, and so we see that play out with kids

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2 in some schools who are unable to understand the

3 instruction, who are not -- I think we see it more

4 in the -- in the kind of regular classes, even in

5 the English as a second language kind of program.

6 At least we sort of know how to do that. There's

7 large numbers of teachers who don't know or don't

8 have the support that they need in order to adapt

9 their instruction to kids who aren't going to

10 understand the three-syllable words and, of

11 course, all the words that they're accustomed to

12 using with native speakers of English.

13 And we have racial and ethnic and

14 immigrant verses nonimmigrant tensions, as we know

15 from Philadelphia and many other places. And so

16 this is an area that, again, there's a great deal

17 to work with in terms of law and there's a great

18 deal of work to be done.

19 MR. CHURCHILL: If Jenny actually

20 hasn't shown up by the time the second bell rings,

21 she would be officially absent. Pennsylvania law

22 allows districts, when there are three or more

23 unexcused absences, to take a child to court in

24 order to assure mandatory attendance. The

25 question, however, is, is that effective? Is that

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2 just a technique that schools use in order to

3 increase attendance, or is it a technique that

4 they use to actually push students out?

5 We've been looking at one school

6 district in Lancaster -- I mean in Lebanon,

7 Pennsylvania. Small district, 4,000 kids,

8 50 percent Hispanic. Of those families, I would

9 suggest that at least 75 percent are run by single

10 mothers. And they have assessed truancy fines of

11 $498,000 a year against these mothers in an

12 attempt to see whether that will, I guess, control

13 the student population. It certainly has not

14 increased attendance by assessing those fines.

15 We've found that out.

16 So one of the questions is: Does

17 the State law actually provide any assistance to

18 school districts that are trying to find other

19 ways of dealing with attendance problems rather

20 than just through the Courts? And there actually

21 is a guidance from the Pennsylvania State

22 Department that encourages school districts to use

23 other techniques and to try to involve other

24 social service agencies, but there is nothing

25 mandatory about them. There is no legal

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2 requirement at the moment that schools provide

3 that kind of assistance or help.

4 One thing to note, if Jenny quit

5 school, she has the right to return until she is

6 21 or until she's graduated. There are many

7 projects working on trying to actually see whether

8 that can become a realty.

9 MR. RIESER: We're a little back

10 and forth with Jenny here. She went to school;

11 she didn't go to school. But, okay, she's back in

12 school. And now the question is, what classes is

13 she going to take? Until, I don't know, 15 years

14 ago, the law answered that question with a list of

15 things like, four years of English and four years

16 of math and two years -- that's all gone, as you

17 know, in the public education system. It's not

18 gone in the private school or religious school or

19 homeschooling side of the ledger.

20 But in the public school system,

21 it's all been replaced by standards and benchmarks

22 and papers, and they apply all the way across all

23 12 grades. They're very detailed. I'm sure

24 you've all seen and lived with them. They define

25 what the State considers important for students to

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2 know in the areas that the State considers

3 important, which are areas like reading and math

4 and science and so forth. There are a few areas

5 that the State doesn't consider important enough

6 to have standards about, and they are things like

7 art and science -- art and music and world

8 languages and a few other things.

9 We're on our way to having, as

10 Michael mentioned, graduation tests based on those

11 standards, which puts an additional bite into

12 them. And, I mean, I'm sure that everyone here is

13 familiar with kind of the yin and yang of

14 standards. On the one hand, they're problematic

15 in that they're limiting and they can hamper

16 teachers from doing good things that teachers want

17 to do. They can be turned into highly

18 prescriptive instructional techniques and units

19 and scripts. The focus is on demonstrating

20 knowledge through standardized testing, which can

21 be limiting, and, of course, standards don't come

22 with resources attached to them. So you can say

23 all you want about what a child can achieve, but

24 if you don't provide the opportunity to achieve

25 it, then what have you accomplished?

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2 On the other hand, we -- standards

3 have helped in the sense that we're much clearer

4 now that there will be some understanding across

5 the board of what needs to be taught in schools.

6 That's got to be, at least in part, a good thing.

7 And standards have also provided a terrific legal

8 platform for making arguments about the

9 entitlement to resources.

10 As we know, for example, from the

11 Pennsylvania costing out study of a few years ago,

12 standards are exactly what you need in order to

13 maybe respond to some of the Courts that base

14 their sort of hands-off decisions on, well, we

15 don't know what education's supposed to be anyway.

16 How can Courts define what education is? Well,

17 the State having defined what education is, we now

18 have much better arguments about what needs to go

19 on in schools and what resources have to be

20 provided in order to make it possible.

21 MR. CHURCHILL: You know, it's --

22 one of questions we have to ask is, are standards

23 for who and for what? I think that we need to

24 understand what is one of things that has driven

25 Courts for many, many years: Their desire not to

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2 have any standard. They wanted to make sure that

3 there was no tort called miseducation or

4 noneducation or failure to educate. That lies

5 deep in the heart of all of the refusals to take

6 jurisdiction, all of the procedural mismash that

7 we get in case after case because, essentially,

8 the Courts wanted to make sure that they weren't

9 asked to have a common law -- developed a sense of

10 what needs to be done in a school.

11 And the regulatory framework never

12 set -- as Len pointed out, and it's really

13 important. I went back and looked at the public

14 school code. There was nothing prior to ten years

15 ago that said anything about the quality of

16 schooling, except in one place where it says

17 superintendents were to make reports to their

18 school boards if there were not sufficient

19 teachers hired to teach the classes required, and

20 the second one that said superintendents were to

21 make a report on whether school classes were age

22 appropriate. That was it. They could do anything

23 or almost nothing as far as state law was

24 concerned and the courts weren't going to touch

25 it.

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2 We're entering a new era. The

3 standards movement started -- and I'm trying to

4 understand it and there are others here who know

5 much better than I -- to think about what are the

6 standards for schools. Now we're talking about a

7 very different thing about what are the standards

8 of graduation. And one of the questions we need

9 to ask is, is it really fair to impose the

10 standards of graduation on individual students

11 when the school itself is -- when that student is

12 one of 75 percent of the school who are not making

13 the standards? Doesn't it say -- and where the

14 student could, indeed, in fact, be getting A's and

15 B's on whatever work the school itself has

16 assigned to them. Does that make sense? Whose

17 conduct are we trying to change in that situation?

18 MR. RIESER: Michael's mention of

19 that antique statute about superintendents making

20 reports, that's exactly the kind of thing that we

21 used to spend a lot of time trying to figure out.

22 What do we do with this? Can we file a lawsuit

23 against a superintendent for not making a report?

24 What good will that do? They'll just make a

25 report. And then, you know, this is kind of what

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2 we had to work with. It is a different

3 environment with the standards.

4 We're going to take Jenny to

5 science class. It's now 10 o'clock. We're going

6 to get through this. We're doing a little better

7 than I thought.

8 So if Jenny's like some kids that

9 I know, she walks into her science class and there

10 are smart boards, there's software. Apparently,

11 you can learn chemistry through software now.

12 Things have changed a little. There's equipment.

13 There's stuff to do experiments with.

14 If Jenny's like some other kids I

15 know, she walks into, essentially, an empty room

16 with some wooden benches that used to have a few

17 microscopes and no longer have much of anything on

18 them and she listens to the teacher describe

19 biology or physics.

20 It's really up to us to do

21 something about this. We can do it, I think, by

22 arguing, as I mentioned earlier, that the

23 standards, now that we have them and now that

24 they're becoming a graduation requirement, that

25 they imply that the resources have to be present.

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2 And you can't learn biology simply by being told

3 about what biology is.

4 And beyond just making those

5 arguments, I think we can start talking about, or

6 continue talking about, how to get the law to be

7 more specific about input requirements. There

8 have been a few voices on that front. Of course,

9 all of us have worked on the school funding issues

10 and the resource issues there. Chaka Fattah has

11 distinguished himself by pushing the question of

12 input standards and input measures, not just put

13 them in, and that's what we need to do in order to

14 make sure that Jenny's science class isn't the

15 second of the two that I described.

16 MR. CHURCHILL: Besides equipment,

17 one of the questions, of course, is teachers and

18 class size. Curiously, some states do have

19 regulations on class size. Pennsylvania doesn't.

20 There's no limit, except as the teachers

21 themselves and their unions may bargain for those

22 limits. And this question, again, of resources,

23 we do have, at least in the early grades, through

24 the Star Project in Tennessee and other states,

25 evidence that for kids with -- from urban poor

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2 backgrounds, particularly small class sizes,

3 improves learning.

4 But the other side of that or

5 paired with that, also, is other school sizes, and

6 I guess everybody saw yesterday's Times story that

7 tried to say that even big schools can succeed.

8 Although there is a lot of literature that says

9 that it is a lot easier when the schools are small

10 enough so that there is actual interpersonal

11 connection that allows learning to take place and

12 allows motivation for learning to take place in a

13 lot more easy environment.

14 But at the moment, the only way to

15 deal with either of those questions is, again,

16 through the resource issue of is there adequate

17 resources to meet the standards. And the

18 connection there is, of course, can you prove that

19 causal connection satisfactory to the Courts and

20 you can be sure that people are going to be trying

21 to do that.

22 MR. RIESER: So, what actually

23 happens in Jenny's class? I've talked a little

24 bit about that. This is kind of the thing that

25 interests me most because, in the end, it's kind

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2 of what matters. Does the teacher stand up there

3 and kind of drones away at her, the way we are

4 with you, or does she break you up into groups?

5 Does she give you some ideas about projects that

6 you could develop yourself? Does she have you

7 work with each other? I think all those kinds of

8 questions are about what teaching really is and

9 what learning really is.

10 Well, you know, the law doesn't

11 really say anything about that. Kind of a -- kind

12 of an amazing omission, if you think about the

13 fact that that's ultimately what learning is

14 about. But, on the other hand, it's kind of a

15 challenge to capture notions of good teaching in

16 legal language or legalese, even if there were an

17 ability to do that.

18 I tend to think that improving

19 teaching and learning has much more to do with

20 supporting leadership. And, of course, there are

21 legal aspects to this, too, because this is all

22 about where we put our money, where we put our

23 time and so forth. It's about leadership. It's

24 about professional development. It's about

25 allowing teachers to continue to learn and be the

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2 people that they went into teaching in order to

3 be. It's about the involvement of students and

4 families in shaping their own education. And

5 there are bits and pieces of opportunities for all

6 of those things in the law.

7 There is a lot more pushing to be

8 done. There's a lot more resources to be

9 allocated. And there's a lot more time to be

10 found, somehow, in the school day for it really to

11 work. I think that those kinds of approaches

12 supported by the laws we have and, perhaps, the

13 laws that we could get enacted may be more

14 effective in improving schools than mandates or

15 transformation through increasing

16 prescriptiveness, telling teachers exactly what to

17 say, or by replacing 50 percent of the staff.

18 Those kinds of things seem, to me,

19 to offer less, ultimately, in terms of really

20 supporting what ought to be going on in that

21 classroom that Jenny's sitting in and somewhat

22 more of a side issue. Which is not to say that

23 there aren't principals who aren't successful and

24 teachers who need to find another profession and

25 so forth. But an awful lot of our emphasis these

Page 28



2 days is on that side of the ledger and it seems,

3 to me, there's less on the support side of the

4 ledger.

5 MR. CHURCHILL: The good side of

6 the lack of any strong hook for lawyers is that it

7 leaves an enormous amount of room, actually, for

8 educators to do what they determine will be

9 successful. And we're going to be hearing a lot

10 about their research and what they think that

11 should be, but the underlying question, then, is

12 going to be: How come not more? Why isn't it --

13 if the law doesn't prevent it, what else is

14 preventing it?

15 And one of the other pieces that

16 we need to look at is, as we tend to think we know

17 answers, or as politicians tend to think they know

18 answers, how do we keep them from doing some real

19 harm? And some of those areas that we're going to

20 come to next in Jenny's career may actually spell

21 it out when we get to legislators and lawmakers

22 beginning to tell schools how they should deal

23 with, quote, unquote, disruptive children and

24 children who are having problems fitting in with

25 the pattern that outsiders believe ought to be the

Page 29



2 standard. So maybe we ought to turn to that.

3 MR. RIESER: Well, first of all,

4 it's 12 clock and Jenny can go home now because

5 she's in an alternative school and alternative

6 schools in Pennsylvania are actually allowed to

7 operate for a minimum of 15 hours per week. So,

8 actually, she could have gone home at 11:00.

9 It's one of the areas where --

10 it's one of few -- relatively few areas where we

11 actually have state mandates, or I suppose I

12 should say sanction: Delivery of an inferior

13 educational opportunity. And if anyone believes

14 that the amount of time spent learning has

15 anything to do with learning, our statutes and

16 rules in Pennsylvania do pick out a class of kids

17 who have had behavior incidents in school placed

18 in alternative schools and then tell them that

19 they can go home at 11:00 or 12:00. So that's an

20 area we need to work on.

21 Assuming Jenny isn't in an

22 alternative school, she's still in school, but now

23 a box cutter drops out of her backpack and

24 clatters to the floor. We'll assume it's from her

25 job unpacking boxes at Rite Aid in the evening, or

Page 30



2 Jenny gets into a fight, and who knows why. Maybe

3 someone else started it. Maybe she started it.

4 Two different kinds of problems, obviously, but

5 the law currently responds to them in more or less

6 the same way. It's heavily tilted toward

7 supporting zero tolerance approaches, exclusionary

8 approaches, five-minute approaches, and report to

9 the police approaches, and there's very little in

10 the law, at the moment, that really supports the

11 development of positive behaviors, social skills

12 and so forth.

13 Now, that's not to confuse, you

14 know, whether there should be box cutters in

15 schools with the issue of social skills, but it is

16 to say that we need to find -- to take like a

17 silver lining approach. It's great that the pool

18 is open for schools to institute positive

19 approaches, to some extent, but it would be a lot

20 better if we really supported those approaches.

21 One of the possible amendments, I

22 think, to the revised Elementary Secondary

23 Education Act grew out of a bill that then-Senator

24 Obama sponsored supporting the development of

25 positive behavior support programs in schools. I

Page 31



2 think that would be a great thing to have in

3 Jenny's school.

4 MR. CHURCHILL: Well, it's

5 important to actually turn to one of the areas

6 where there is the most, in some ways,

7 prescriptive and most supportive legislation and

8 that's if Jenny actually has been identified as

9 having a behavior problem that arises out of

10 disabilities because, in that situation, she then

11 becomes entitled to all of the protections and the

12 support that the Individuals with Disabilities

13 Education Act provides.

14 And IDEA actually has an enormous

15 amount that is fair game for lawyers to work on,

16 not just for the procedural protections that I

17 think have -- so many of us have seen over the

18 years, but actually for the standard of free

19 appropriate education. You know, the Rally Court,

20 while saying that it didn't mean maximize the

21 potential for the child, did say it meant

22 year-to-year progress appropriate to the child's

23 abilities, and that's a real standard. It talks,

24 also, about utilizing the best practices so that

25 you can actually see what is happening and what

Page 32



2 kinds of support systems the child is being given.

3 It talks about qualified and trained teachers in a

4 way that appropriate -- the skills appropriate to

5 the needs of the child.

6 These are all beginning to begin

7 to provide lawyers and parents, particularly

8 parents, with the kind of standard that is

9 actually useful in trying to make sure that the

10 help and the support that will allow the child to

11 learn is made available. And my colleague, Sandra

12 Kerr, her panelists are going to talk more about

13 that. But it is a remarkable statute. It is

14 probably the first that begin to actually put in

15 some concepts of educational progress that is

16 necessary and measurable of any of the statutes

17 that affected Jenny's school day.

18 What else? We've mentioned the

19 parents who are important advocates for Jenny if

20 she has special ed. What role do parents have

21 under the Pennsylvania statutes in the child's

22 schooling otherwise?

23 MR. RIESER: I'm going to try to

24 wrap this up because we have some other classes to

25 attend to in this room. I think I did touch on

Page 33



2 the fact that there is, in the law, now -- there

3 are in the law a number of opportunities,

4 openings, for parents, and perhaps we'll talk more

5 during the day about how that works. I do think

6 we need to stop. It's about time for Jenny to go

7 home.

8 She had five-and-a-half hours of

9 instruction, by the way, if she was the school in

10 Pennsylvania, and one might ask whether that's

11 really the right amount. 5.5 hours, times

12 180 days may not be enough to make our educational

13 system any better than others.

14 But I hope, at least, that you've

15 got from this the fact that there are some

16 opportunities. There are some exciting

17 opportunities to support our students's abilities,

18 despite all the setbacks and turnarounds that

19 we've had, and we hope that the rest of the day

20 will help you think more about what those

21 opportunities are. Thank you very much.

22 (Applause.)

23 MR. CHURCHILL: Our next panelist

24 is really a fantastic one. And I think I will

25 make my introductions, first, for all three

Page 34



2 panelists, if they'd come up. Deborah, do you

3 want to join us up here? And Torch? I think I

4 saw him someplace here. There he is. He's

5 hiding.

6 MR. JOSEPH: One announcement:

7 The air-conditioning does work in the reading

8 room. So if you need some cooling-off period,

9 walk into the reading room where you registered.

10 MR. CHURCHILL: Well, I'm really

11 excited about this next panel. We have brought to

12 you some marvelous people who, for us lawyers, is

13 a relief to actually hear about what happens and

14 what works in schools rather than what we -- all

15 the statutes are telling us should happen. So

16 this is -- this is the real stuff.

17 And essentially, we're very

18 fortunate to have Penny Bender Sebring here with

19 us. She is, I think, with the publication of her

20 recent book that she has co-written, the

21 preeminent researcher in what is -- leads to

22 improvement in schools and the country. She is

23 the founding co-director -- I guess that's the

24 right title -- of the Consortium Chicago School

25 research, and she's a senior research associate at

Page 35



2 the University of Chicago. She previously worked

3 at the National Opinion Research Center at the

4 university where she studied also progress,

5 longitudinal results for middle and high school

6 students. She is a graduate of Cornell College

7 and has a Ph.D. from Northwestern. Outside --

8 well, she's also a director of the Chicago Public

9 Education Trust Fund. The -- she's written two

10 books, which will be available, I believe, outside

11 in the foyer at our break, and she is going to

12 talk about them, so I will preempt that.

13 Deborah Meier has been a teacher

14 for almost four decades. She is now a scholar at

15 the School of Education in New York University.

16 She has been described as a visionary, but

17 frankly, to the extent that suggests to people

18 that she is airy and not based in reality, she is

19 the living disproof of that. She has done so much

20 in making real schools work and that visionary is

21 only really a half of her title. She is the

22 founder and was the teacher/director of the

23 Central Park East Secondary School in New York

24 City, and similarly, I guess, that was her role in

25 the Mission Hill School in Boston, both who served

Page 36



2 inner city school children.

3 She has been a prolific author and

4 the list of her books include: Playing For Keeps,

5 Many Children Left Behind, In Schools We Trust,

6 The Powers of Their Ideas. She has a blog, which

7 I just encourage everybody to read and look at.

8 It will either confirm your views or challenge

9 them; but in either case, it is an intellectual

10 treat.

11 And finally, we have Torch Lytle.

12 Torch is now a professor at the Graduate School of

13 Education at University of Pennsylvania. I first

14 knew him when he had the title -- I think it was

15 executive director for planning, research and

16 evaluation in the School District of Philadelphia.

17 But Torch has, I think, filled every single

18 possible role in the school system that is

19 imaginable from teacher, principal of an

20 elementary school, principal of a middle school,

21 principal of a high school -- they really must

22 kick him out fast -- assistant superintendent and

23 then superintendent in Trenton beginning in 1998.

24 What was it, Torch, for eight or

25 ten?

Page 37



2 MR. LYTLE: Eight. That's two

3 standard deviations (inaudible).

4 MR. CHURCHILL: He says that's two

5 standard deviations of a norm for superintendents

6 and probably also a norm for Ken holding a job.

7 But his latest book is Working For

8 Kids: Leadership As Inquiry and Invention. And

9 he has his doctorate from Stanford.

10 We're delighted to have these

11 people on our panel to share their ideas with us.

12 And I'll turn it over now to Penny.

13 The procedure's going to be we're

14 going to have Penny explain the research that has

15 been done and what it means for the rest of the

16 country, based on what she's learned in Chicago,

17 and then two of our panelists will sort of respond

18 about it and then we'll have questions.

19 MS. SEBRING: Well, good morning,

20 everyone.

21 AUDIENCE: Good morning.

22 MS. SEBRING: This is like school,

23 there's no air-conditioning.

24 (Laughter.)

25 So, Jeremy, do you want to fire up

Page 38



2 our PowerPoint?

3 So, I am glad to be back in

4 Pennsylvania. I actually lived here for 13 years

5 in Central Pennsylvania. I got my teaching

6 certificate from Penn State, and I did my student

7 teaching at Tredyffrin-Easttown Middle School.

8 And my husband Chuck is here with me. He's in the

9 second table back, and Chuck has ties here, too.

10 He grew up in Telford in Union Township, which we

11 took a ride to see yesterday as we arrived. And

12 he got his MBA from Horton. So we're somewhat

13 familiar with your city.

14 Okay, Jeremy?

15 So the first thing I wanted to do

16 was to -- was just to remind people that this

17 book was -- the book I'm talking about today was

18 written by five of us, and these are my coauthors:

19 The first, the senior author, is

20 Tony Bryk, who I helped found the consortium with

21 20 years ago. Tony was our senior director for

22 many years. He is now the President of the

23 Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of

24 Teaching.

25 The next one is Elaine

Page 39



2 Allensworth, director and colleague, very talented

3 researcher, and she's our senior research officer.

4 Next is Stuart Luppescu, who is --

5 cares about careful measurement and has helped us

6 develop very reliable and valid surveys, as well

7 as to do a very careful analysis of test scores.

8 And then, finally, John Easton,

9 who was our senior director until a year ago last

10 year. At that point, President Obama named him to

11 the director of the Institute of Education and

12 Sciences, probably one of the most important

13 research jobs in the country. So we have quite a

14 group.

15 Before going into the research,

16 I'll say a little bit about the consortium. We

17 started 20 years ago. At the time we started, we

18 were very concerned about the fact that a lot of

19 research sits in journals, it sits here on

20 shelves, it just doesn't get used. So we set

21 about to invest, really, a new way of doing

22 research where we did it in a very engaged way

23 with educators and policymakers and civic leaders

24 and it affected the kinds of questions we asked

25 and the way we shared our information.

Page 40



2 So what we try to do is to do high

3 quality studies that meet the standards of the

4 University of Chicago, but are also practicable

5 and help to form -- help to form policy and

6 practice in Chicago inner schools. We don't

7 advocate for any particular program, but we do try

8 to break down the barriers between researchers and

9 others who are working on school reform. And we

10 try to search for the problems together -- search

11 for the solutions to the problems of urban

12 schools.

13 The consortium is part of the

14 Urban Educational Institute at the University of

15 Chicago, which is a much broader group, and we're

16 dedicated to building knowledge through both

17 scholarship and knowledge of good practice,

18 building knowledge to help us improve urban

19 schools. And in addition to the consortium, we

20 have an innovative teacher training program that

21 has a long residency period. We also run four

22 charter campuses of the University of Chicago

23 Charter School. So we try to bring all of this

24 together.

25 In the beginning of the book, in

Page 41



2 the prologue, there's a description of two

3 schools, and we notice these schools early on.

4 They're both located in about the same section of

5 the City, both a hundred percent African American,

6 both a hundred percent low income, both were among

7 the a hundred worst schools in reading and math in

8 the early 90's. Over a period of seven years, one

9 of those schools moved forward; that was Hancock.

10 And the other one actually stayed the same or got

11 a little worse.

12 Okay. And the next slide.

13 And so they were kind of like a

14 lot of other schools. And here, we see the

15 tremendous variation in the percent of students

16 meeting national norms. The top line, the blue

17 line, shows the top order of schools over this

18 seven-year period, and that's a hundred schools, a

19 hundred elementary schools. The dotted line shows

20 the worst schools and their trajectory over a

21 seven-year period. So it raised the question:

22 How did Hancock beat the odds, and what happened

23 to Alexander, and why did he have a hundred

24 elementary schools make substantial progress in

25 their learning grades whereas a hundred schools

Page 42



2 just stayed the same?

3 Okay. So that's what stimulated

4 our study and, actually, at the beginning, I don't

5 think we knew how complicated this was going to be

6 or how long it would take, but what we were really

7 trying to do was to take an empirical attack on

8 this question and really understand the internal

9 workings of the schools and how to differentiate

10 the two groups and understand, also, the community

11 or external conditions.

12 So this work began over 15 years

13 ago, and we had done some work with the

14 superintendent, Archie Johnson, and a group of

15 people to start to create a guide for schools on

16 how to go about improving their schools. And out

17 of that work -- and this is a group of teachers,

18 principals, school reform organizations, people in

19 the central office, other researchers -- and out

20 of those conversations in those early years came

21 the gist of an idea, which eventually became the

22 framework for our study.

23 So to start with, look at the

24 classroom black box. That's where learning takes

25 place, but how successful a teacher is with his or

Page 43



2 her students depends very much on those other

3 aspects of the school organization or what we call

4 the essential supports, the five essential

5 supports.

6 So looking at these one at a time,

7 school leadership is the driver for change and,

8 then, in effective schools, we see the school

9 principal as being strategic, as being focused on

10 instruction. These principals engage other

11 people, other teachers and other staff in the

12 leadership group as well. So they're inclusive,

13 and it goes without saying they need to be an

14 effective manager.

15 The next area is the

16 parent/community ties. In strong schools, where

17 these ties are strong, teachers actually know

18 something about the local culture and they draw on

19 that in their teaching. There's a lot of activity

20 to reach out to parents and the schools draw local

21 organizations to help them, particularly with the

22 needs of the students and their parents.

23 The professional capacity rests

24 very much on the quality of the faculty and the

25 staff who are recruited to the school. But in

Page 44



2 addition, those people have to have ongoing

3 opportunities for learning. They have to have --

4 the faculty has to have a sense of collective

5 responsibility, that they're responsible for the

6 progress of the whole school and not just their

7 classroom. And finally, the faculty and staff

8 have to come together in what's called a

9 professional community. There's got to be a lot

10 of teamwork.

11 Next, the learning climate. First

12 and foremost, and it's unfortunate we even have to

13 talk about this, but particularly in our urban

14 schools, safety and order are a huge issue. And

15 this is actually one of the most powerful

16 indicators of successful schools and the students.

17 The climate has to -- the kids have to be pressed

18 to learn challenging material, but at the same

19 time, supported in that -- in the process of doing

20 that.

21 And then, next. Okay. We've got

22 this thing in the way here.

23 And lastly, we talk about

24 instructional guidance. So in strong schools,

25 there's a coherent well-recognized curriculum and

Page 45



2 a curriculum that asks students to learn new

3 material each year. And that seems like an

4 obvious statement, but we found that several years

5 ago, in a study we did on pacing in math, that

6 once you get to fourth and fifth grade, the

7 introduction of new content actually started to

8 fall off in Chicago. And so a critical point here

9 is that you have to keep introducing new material,

10 even though it seems like a very basic point. And

11 then, in addition, the academic worlds need to

12 encompass their own basic schools with the more

13 challenging intellectual tasks.

14 So the concept of essentiality

15 kind of relates to a metaphor I used in the book,

16 and we got this from the former vice president of

17 our teacher's union, who used to say, "Well, if

18 you're baking a cake, you need all the

19 ingredients. So what kind of cake would you have

20 if you left out the eggs or the baking power?"

21 And what we say about the essential supports is

22 they're kind of a recipe of sorts, that you really

23 need all of them and if you leave any one out,

24 you're not going to be successful.

25 So now, we'll just look at some of

Page 46



2 our findings. These are the data resources we

3 had. We had student test scores going all the way

4 back to 1987. We do extensive surveys of

5 teachers, students and principals, and we have

6 data from 260 elementary schools. We also drew on

7 a study of communities that had been done by a

8 sociologist. We obtained crime statistics by

9 census block. And for each school, we were able

10 to obtain the percentages of students who have

11 ever been abused or neglected.

12 We also made one very deliberate

13 decision, and that was we left out magnet schools

14 and high achieving schools from our analysis.

15 That was about 15 percent of the elementary

16 schools. We left them out because we were most

17 worried about the neighborhood schools and

18 understanding what it takes to improve them.

19 Now, our indicators of

20 improvement, in the next few slides you'll see

21 words like "substantial improvement" or

22 "stagnation." So we had, basically, two kinds of

23 indicators. One was attendance. We looked to see

24 whether attendance improved over time.

25 Secondly is the school's value

Page 47



2 added to student learning. And for this, we

3 created a learning gains index. So we started

4 with each individual student, went back to the

5 prior year to see what their test score was

6 compared to the current year and did that over and

7 over again over seven years. And so what we

8 were -- what we're really focused on is the

9 improvement and gains and whether the gains were

10 getting larger. And that's a pretty high bar. So

11 you'll see in the next few slides we'll contrast

12 the schools with strong improvement versus the

13 stagnation.

14 And a little footnote here, I'm

15 going to answer Deborah's question. She asked me,

16 "Well, how did Chicago do on the National

17 Assessment of Educational Progress?" So -- and

18 there are now about 18 large school districts that

19 participate in the national assessment, which is

20 this very highly regarded federal assessment.

21 And, frankly, Chicago generally is below average

22 compared to the full group of the cities.

23 Philadelphia is, too. So we can commiserate where

24 we are and talk about how we can get better.

25 However, Chicago, like the other cities, has been

Page 48



2 improving in its math indicators. The most recent

3 report on the reading has not come out yet. So

4 that's an answer to that.

5 All right. So here, we are going

6 to look at schools that are strong and weak in

7 each of the areas. Each area, one at a time. And

8 what this shows is the percentages of schools that

9 improved substantially in reading. So the -- I

10 think, kind of kiwi color. It's yellow, normally.

11 But on this projector, it's kind of kiwi --

12 represents the weak schools. These schools were

13 rated weakly on all these five areas, and you can

14 see that a relatively small percentage of them

15 improved substantially over the seven-year period.

16 Okay. Now, if we add the maroon

17 bars, these are the schools that were strong in

18 leadership, strong in parent involvement and the

19 other areas. And in just looking at leadership,

20 there were over four times -- or they were about

21 four times more likely to improve if they were

22 strong in school leadership by itself, and you see

23 roughly the same pattern going across.

24 Okay. And here we have

25 mathematics and we see a similar pattern. The

Page 49



2 strong schools, far more likely to improve

3 substantially, at least their rating is getting

4 larger, than the weak schools.

5 And this is attendance. And for

6 attendance, the attendance doesn't

7 differentiate -- the strong or weak schools don't

8 differentiate too much on attendance. But notice

9 safety and order. So the schools that were strong

10 in safety and order are three times more likely to

11 improve attendance than the schools that were weak

12 in that area.

13 So I'm not going to show a very

14 complicated graph because it will take too long to

15 explain. So I'll just say that, in the analysis,

16 we started looking at one score at a time, and

17 then we looked at two at a time, and then,

18 finally, three and five at a time. And what we

19 saw was that the real value of the essential

20 supports is their combining force. And so schools

21 that were strong in three to five of the domains

22 were ten times more likely to improve in reading

23 and math than schools that were weak in three out

24 of the five areas. So it was very -- it just

25 really -- these are just enormous differences.

Page 50



2 We also found that if you looked

3 over time at whether schools were weak in an area

4 and then two or three years later, continued to be

5 weak in that area, that tended to undermine

6 improvement. So we really kind of need all five.

7 Although, at some point, we do talk about three.

8 But over time, you need to really be building a

9 school with all five.

10 Okay. So this one, I think, is

11 trust as the ovens heat. We found the trusting

12 relationships in the school were very predictive

13 of strength in the essential support practices.

14 So going back to our metaphor of baking a cake, if

15 you think about putting a cake in the oven, you

16 have to put it in the oven so it will rise and

17 congeal and cook. And we view trusting

18 relationships in the school in the same way:

19 Provides the social energy. Provides the

20 foundation for people working together in order to

21 build these strong practices.

22 And so to demonstrate that, let's

23 look at the top -- the top graph, which is

24 something called work orientation. And this is a

25 measure of teachers's orientation towards

Page 51



2 innovation and their commitment to the school. So

3 the black dot -- we're going to -- this is -- it's

4 like we're comparing two schools here. The black

5 dot, the schools are right together. They're the

6 same size. They have about the same level of

7 mobility. The one -- the blue line shows that the

8 school where trust was high in the first time

9 period, when we follow them to the next time

10 period, 1994, they were in the 70th percentile on

11 work orientation, whereas the school that was low

12 on trust in the first time period, if we followed

13 them for three years, we see that they're in the

14 33rd percentile.

15 So the point here is that

16 developing these practices requires an enormous

17 amount of work and detailed collaborative work

18 among the adults and with the students as well,

19 and it's very hard to get this done unless you

20 have a trusting environment.

21 And then the next graph, at the

22 top, just shows a different -- another three-year

23 period, and then the bottom graph shows the parent

24 involvement. So we found very consistent results

25 that trust was very important.

Page 52



2 So Michael told me not to spend

3 too much time on this one, which I won't.

4 After the initial seven years, and

5 we replicated the analysis from 1997 to 2005 and,

6 basically, we found the same relationships

7 persisted. The stronger for those schools that

8 were stronger in the supports and those schools

9 that improved over time in the supports. This had

10 a significant effect on their value added

11 measures.

12 And one thing I'll say about this

13 at this point is that some of you may be thinking,

14 well, you know, this all makes sense, doesn't seem

15 like rocket science. It's kind of intuitive. We

16 know these practices are important. But the fact

17 of the matter is, there are not -- in Chicago,

18 there were not that many schools that were strong

19 in even three of its essential supports. So it's

20 something, I think, that educators know

21 intuitively, but to find it in the practice is

22 rare.

23 So up to this point, it's been a

24 pretty, you know, optimistic story. There's -- we

25 found there's kind of a recipe. It's not an easy

Page 53



2 thing to do, but you can follow these practice --

3 follow these ideas in this recipe to improve

4 schools. But we also need to look at some of the

5 more sobering findings, and these have to do with

6 the profound influence of community context, and

7 that leads us to the part of the study where we're

8 going to talk about social capital of the

9 community and students's needs and how these

10 affect the capacity of schools to develop their

11 essential supports.

12 So this map shows the improving

13 schools. This is a map of Chicago, the 77

14 neighborhoods, and it's shaded according to median

15 income, with the darker areas being the areas with

16 lowest income. And we can see that improving

17 schools, we could find them in most parts of the

18 City.

19 The next one shows the stagnating

20 schools, and you can see that they are

21 concentrated on the west side and the south side

22 of Chicago and in the areas with the lowest

23 income.

24 So I think we're going to skip

25 this one because I don't have too much time to

Page 54



2 explain it.

3 So we did some analysis to try to

4 figure out what comparisons we were going to make

5 and we determined that race and SCS -- race,

6 ethnicity and SCS are highly interconnected. So

7 we create seven groups of schools. And here they

8 are:

9 The first three are a

10 hundred percent African-American schools -- are

11 almost a hundred percent African-American schools,

12 but the truly disadvantaged were -- and you'll see

13 this in a minute -- very poor economically. And

14 then the next group is a little bit better off,

15 and the third group is moderate SCS

16 African-American schools. And then a group we

17 call predominately minority, which is a mixture --

18 mainly a mixture of African-American and Latino

19 students. Then we have the Latino schools.

20 Racially diverse schools, which are at least

21 15 percent Caucasian, so they kind of have all

22 groups in them. And then, finally, racially

23 integrated, which are at least 30 percent

24 Caucasian.

25 Okay. Let's move to the next one.

Page 55



2 Oops. All right. Okay. So let's -- do you want

3 to click again? There we go.

4 So just to give you an idea of

5 those communities, the percentage of families

6 living below the poverty line ranges from

7 70 percent for the truly disadvantaged all the way

8 over to 7 percent for integrated schools. And

9 median family income, same thing: About $9500

10 median family income for the truly disadvantaged

11 schools all the way over to over $37,000 for the

12 integrated schools. And, actually, that latter

13 figure is just a little bit above what the

14 national average was for median income at this

15 time.

16 So now we're going to look at the

17 extent to which these groups of schools stagnated

18 or improved. And here, you see the truly

19 disadvantaged had a very -- 45 percent --

20 46 percent of them stagnated --

21 And now can I have the next one?

22 -- and that 15 percent improved.

23 So, in general, as you read from the left to the

24 right, the left side, you see much more

25 stagnation; on the right side, you see more

Page 56



2 improvement. However, notice that every single

3 group, including the truly disadvantaged and the

4 integrated schools, had schools that improved or

5 schools that stagnated. So we found those among

6 all the groups. The trend is there.

7 So, normally, researchers can stop

8 at this point and say, well, that's just the way

9 it is. But we didn't want to do that. We really

10 wanted to probe this further to find out what are

11 some of the characteristics of these schools that

12 differentiate them so much? So that led us to

13 look at the literature on social capital, and

14 sociologists have been writing about that for a

15 number of years with respect to urban communities.

16 So here, we -- we first think

17 about social capital as bonding social capital,

18 and this is -- that is the connections between

19 people that help them work together towards a

20 common goal. So, often times, in immigrant

21 communities you see this, people working together

22 to help each other. And so from our -- from one

23 of the other studies that we used, we were able to

24 get data from a community study where the

25 researchers had interviewed 8,000 people in

Page 57



2 Chicago about their community, and then we linked

3 their study in ours so we could see how people

4 were describing their communities around the

5 schools in our study.

6 We had measures of collective

7 efficacy, which is the social condition of the

8 community. We had measures of religious

9 participation. We also, as I mentioned, had crime

10 statistics, and we put this on the list as a

11 negative indicator of social capital, because high

12 crime tends to undermine the ability of people to

13 get together and work together.

14 We also had a measure of what we

15 call bridging social capital, and bridging social

16 capital is connections that people make to people

17 who are not like them, that are different from

18 them in some way. And our measure here was

19 whether people in these neighborhoods had contacts

20 with people in other neighborhoods.

21 Finally, we knew that we have

22 children living under extraordinarily difficult

23 circumstances and we did get data on the

24 percentage of students who had ever been abused

25 and neglected in the schools in our study and who

Page 58



2 are in and out of family care.

3 Okay. So now we're looking at the

4 characteristics of communities in relation to

5 their essential supports. So essential supports

6 are less likely to develop in communities with

7 weak bonding and bridging social capital.

8 Let me just explain the fist set

9 of bars there. The blue bar is communities that

10 are high in -- I'm sorry -- low in religious

11 participation. Only five percent of the schools

12 in those communities improved substantially. The

13 maroon bar is schools that are high in religious

14 participation, and you notice that they -- almost

15 40 percent of the schools in those communities

16 improve substantially. And we see the same thing

17 for collective efficacy and for connections to the

18 outside. So weak social capital depresses the

19 probability of developing a strong school.

20 This graph shows that essential

21 supports are unlikely to be strong in schools

22 servicing communities with high crime rates and

23 high percentages of abuse and neglect. So the

24 blue bar is communities high in crime. Very few

25 schools in those communities have -- for strong

Page 59



2 schools had strong essential supports.

3 Among the low crime areas, we had

4 36 percent of those were substantially improved --

5 or I'm sorry -- 36 percent of those had strong

6 essential supports. And then we had a similar,

7 although more dramatic, comparison between the

8 schools that had relatively high percentages of

9 abuse and neglect, and almost none of those

10 schools in that community had strong essential

11 supports.

12 Okay. Tom and Sara, how much time

13 are you allowing me?

14 MS. SARA: A couple minutes, one

15 minute, two minutes.

16 MS. SEBRING: Okay.

17 MR. JOSEPH: Two.

18 MS. SEBRING: Two, okay. So let's

19 skip this one, then.

20 So our -- we did find that those

21 communities in the disadvantaged communities -- or

22 those schools in disadvantaged communities that

23 had strong essential supports did improve

24 substantially, so the essential supports are

25 important for all kinds of schools. We found,

Page 60



2 however, that in the most disadvantaged

3 communities, the supports had to be very robust.

4 Okay. All right. And so now I'm

5 going to, maybe in one minute, just give a preview

6 of something else that's coming, and that is that

7 this research was based on a very extensive survey

8 system. Now districts are asking us to make our

9 surveys available to them and we're getting ready

10 to do that. An important thing to remember is

11 every time we do a survey, we return the results

12 to every single school. So every single school

13 sees how it's doing on the essential supports.

14 And we are -- we're now building capacity to do

15 that for other school districts as well.

16 So let me just show you what a

17 school report looks like. So this is, the first

18 picture, if your school has been -- done a survey

19 and you're getting a report back, this is the

20 first picture you see. And my son-in-law says it

21 looks like the inside of a Chinese takeout box.

22 (Laughter.)

23 MS. SEBRING: So it shows the five

24 areas, and green is good, red is bad. Let's just

25 look at professional capacity over there on the

Page 61



2 right. There are several components of

3 professional capacity. Each of those components

4 has measures associated with them. For example,

5 whether teachers are having reflective

6 conversations about teaching.

7 Okay. Surveys -- we survey all

8 teachers and survey students grades six through

9 12.

10 Okay. Let's go to the next one.

11 Here's how a school can compare themselves to

12 other -- to other schools. They can see how

13 they're doing over time. They can see how they're

14 doing in a system average in the schools like

15 them.

16 MR. CHURCHILL: Good.

17 MS. SEBRING: So that -- this is

18 something Philadelphia could do.

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. CHURCHILL: Wait one minute,

21 because I had one -- we're going to save questions

22 until the end, but I actually have one which I

23 need to have. If you would go back to chart 29,

24 the one she said she was going to skip, for a

25 second.

Page 62



2 MR. JOSEPH: What page is that?

3 MR. CHURCHILL: That's it. There

4 we go.

5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What page

6 in the book?

7 MR. CHURCHILL: I can't tell you.

8 It's labeled 29.

9 MS. SARAH: 77.

10 MR. JOSEPH: 77.

11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 77.

12 MR. CHURCHILL: Would you explain

13 this chart, at least just with one -- just do with

14 the reading for a moment and tell us what that

15 says.

16 MS. SEBRING: Okay. So this

17 shows -- this shows the percentage of schools that

18 improved substantially. The kind of curved line

19 is -- are the schools in the most advantaged

20 communities: Low crime, high social cohesion, low

21 abuse and neglect, et cetera. The mustard-colored

22 line is -- are the schools in the disadvantaged --

23 just those opposite characteristics. And then, at

24 each point along the bottom, it shows -- you go

25 from the schools at the bottom on the left side

Page 63



2 are the schools that were weak in the essential

3 supports, schools in the middle were average, and

4 schools on the right were strong. And so what it

5 shows is that, regardless of the community, with

6 more supports, you did better.

7 I think the interesting thing here

8 is the gap at the average. So it shows that the

9 advantaged communities, they could do -- they

10 could still improve, even with average level of

11 essential supports. Didn't have to be all that

12 strong. However, the disadvantaged communities,

13 they couldn't. They had -- the only way that they

14 really succeeded convincingly was to have the

15 strong supports.

16 MR. CHURCHILL: Thank you for

17 that, but one further question. I notice that

18 when you have both high community resources and

19 high in-school supports, you're still showing -- I

20 think this is the right way to read it --

21 50 percent of the schools are substantially

22 improved. Does that mean 50 percent of the

23 schools, even with all of that working for them,

24 are not improving? And what is that telling us?

25 MS. SEBRING: Yes, that's always a

Page 64



2 question. Why didn't all the schools improve?

3 It's, you know, I think partly this is because we

4 don't have perfect measurements; and if we had

5 even measured more deeply, especially in the

6 instructional area, we might have gotten slightly

7 different results.

8 I look at this a little bit like

9 why I take medication. So if taking medication is

10 going to improve my chances of good health by 40

11 or 50 percent, I'm going to take it. Okay? And a

12 lot of medical research, actually, if you look at

13 your -- if you look at the leaflets that come with

14 your prescriptions, a lot of things are like this,

15 you know, that you have to play kind of the

16 probabilities. So with that, I hope that answers

17 your question.

18 MR. CHURCHILL: Okay. Torch says

19 that he'll be short and sweet.

20 MR. LYTLE: I will, if you'll be

21 quiet.

22 MR. CHURCHILL: Good. Hold on one

23 second.

24 MR. LYTLE: I know this has been

25 very hard work, going through the Organizing For

Page 65



2 (sic) Schools Improvement book. And yet, those of

3 us in the business feel that this is probably the

4 most substantial piece of work on improving urban

5 schooling that has ever been written. So I

6 commend it to your attention. It does show that

7 no large urban school district is perfect in any

8 way, shape, or form, but there is a great deal to

9 be learned.

10 Now, if you put your finger in

11 your pack, right at the binder that says "section

12 three," and you will turn back one page, you'll

13 find the book in one page. Only I know how to do

14 that.

15 (Laughter.)

16 MR. LYTLE: So on the left-hand

17 side, you're going to find the graphic with a

18 couple of pieces of frosting on it. On the

19 right-hand side, you'll find the measures that

20 were used to define each of the terms that Penny

21 has been using in her remarks.

22 Now, I want to talk very briefly

23 about why I think this work is so important for

24 educators in Philadelphia. Let me start from a

25 simple premise. If I am a parent, the first thing

Page 66



2 I want is safety in my school. I want the teacher

3 and the kids to respect each other. I want a

4 school where people care about my child. I want

5 to trust the school. And finally, I would like my

6 child to achieve. But the first four things are

7 my first concerns. I want the safe school first.

8 And if you watch the charter school market in

9 Philadelphia, you'll see that it's driven very

10 much by parents who are looking for a safe school

11 for their children.

12 Now, if you look at this piece of

13 paper here, the one I'm pointing to and,

14 particularly, the model, this raises a couple of

15 important questions for me. One is, in the

16 current federal policy initiatives, both "No Child

17 Left Behind" and "The Race to the Top" are we

18 seeing policies that, in effect, are supported by

19 the research in Organizing For Schools

20 Improvement, or are we seeing policies that are

21 contradicted by Organizing, and I will argue that

22 in almost every respect, the federal policies are

23 in contradiction, not in support, of the research

24 findings. And I will give you a few examples of

25 that.

Page 67



2 "No Child Left Behind," for

3 example, is driven by accountability, by states

4 testing. They're driven by decision making,

5 choice, charter schools, privatization, teacher

6 qualification requirements, merit pay, competition

7 and so on. Underneath it all, "No Child Left

8 Behind" introduces market models in the public

9 school area. And Philadelphia, they have one of

10 the most aggressive experiments in market-driven

11 reforms that we can find in the country in the

12 presence of expanding charter schools, the

13 education management organizations and the

14 remaining public schools.

15 You will note that, in

16 Philadelphia, the strategy, particularly during

17 the Balacera Latin general election, you spin off

18 the lowest performing schools and, voila, the

19 performance in the organization goes up. If you

20 don't understand the mathematics of that, see me

21 after class, but...

22 Now, when "Race to the Top"

23 emerged -- and "Race to the Top" is unique in

24 federal policy or in federal program

25 implementation because the Congress never

Page 68



2 authorized the provisions of "Race to the Top."

3 Instead, "Race to the Top" is funded through

4 stimulus allocations, and it has given the Obama

5 administration enormous leverage and authority in

6 awarding grants, which is why you see things like

7 "Race to the Top" funds awarded to 16 states

8 rather than to 50 states.

9 So the Obama administration -- my

10 own point of view, I will vote for Obama again, I

11 promise, when the presidential election comes --

12 but in a sense, they have taken the Bush agenda

13 and driven it even farther than was the case when

14 the Bush administration was in place because the

15 "Race to the Top" policies really drive things,

16 like tests, that tie directly to individual

17 teachers.

18 So one of the requirements for the

19 "Race to the Top" grant was that you had to have a

20 state testing program that allows you to tie the

21 test results to the child that taught -- or to the

22 teacher who taught your child. Now, you could

23 claim that this is evidence for transparency. You

24 could also claim that there's absolutely no

25 evidence, at this point in time, that either merit

Page 69



2 pay or teacher accountability that ties directly

3 to student tests improves student performance.

4 And there are a variety of reasons why that is, in

5 fact, the case, and the reasons are on this piece

6 of paper.

7 The most important thing, as far

8 as I'm concerned in my school's work, is

9 relational trust. The kids have to trust the

10 teachers. The teachers have to trust the

11 principal. The parents have to trust the

12 principal and the teachers. And the kids have to

13 trust everybody. And if those conditions are not

14 attained, as you have seen, the probability of

15 school performance is exceedingly thin.

16 So a very good question is: What

17 are districts doing to improve relational trust?

18 How are they managing this whole set of conditions

19 here? And in Philadelphia and Washington DC, for

20 that matter, one of the things that is currently

21 the case is that principal turnover in schools

22 have been accelerated would be a kind word. In

23 the most recent edition of the Philadelphia

24 Notebook, the efficacy newspaper, we learned that

25 over 100 principalships out of 265 schools have

Page 70



2 changed in the last year. And the same thing is

3 true in the District of Columbia, principal

4 turnover has been somewhere in the 30 percent

5 range annually.

6 Well, go back to the piece of

7 paper here. Leadership drives change. Leadership

8 drives improvement. If you do not have the same

9 principal for more than six months in the school,

10 the probability is that nobody's going to learn to

11 trust anybody. So if you have continuing

12 leadership turnover, you have a -- it's a nice

13 simple -- I mean, there are a lot of other

14 conditions at play, that one alone suggests that

15 the probability of success over time is

16 dramatically diminished.

17 If you add in the intervention

18 models in low performance schools, throw people in

19 the street, convert the schools into charter

20 schools, impose scripted curriculum and other

21 fancy solutions, again, you don't have a set of

22 conditions that builds trust in any way, shape, or

23 form. Essentially, you're experimenting with

24 other people's children in inner city communities

25 and are requiring people to participate in an

Page 71



2 exercise that is not supported by what we know

3 best.

4 And I guess I would -- you may

5 ask, you know, why is it that I make statements

6 like this, and one is that I've lived in this

7 world for a long time; another is that I teach

8 teachers and the teachers that I teach all teach

9 in either Philadelphia charter schools or in

10 Philadelphia public schools. Most of them teach

11 in high school, believe it or not. And when I ask

12 my students, what is the level of relational trust

13 in your school? Do people trust each other?

14 Two -- I've done this for three years now. The

15 answer, ever year, has been no one. No teacher I

16 work with works in a school where people trust

17 each other. So you ask yourself, how is it that

18 we are going to get rid of this as we go?

19 MS. MEIER: You heard the story

20 about the dog that ate the homework right? Well,

21 on the way here, I left all -- everything in the

22 taxi.

23 (Laughter.)

24 MS. MEIER: Yeah, because I had

25 detailed notes and three or four books that I

Page 72



2 wanted to tell you about. So -- and since this is

3 the second time on this trip that I've left

4 something somewhere, it's just a warning. When

5 you get over a certain age, you need an assistant

6 by your side.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MS. MEIER: That's the kind of

9 support --

10 (Laugher.)

11 MS. MEIER: That's for our

12 children.

13 You know, I was thinking -- your

14 remarks were so, so apt. I was thinking that I

15 used to like it when the chancellor of New York

16 City changed every two years because it meant he

17 couldn't get anything done.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MS. MEIER: And the less he could

20 get done, the more I, as a principal or a teacher,

21 could get done. There was a direct correlation.

22 (Laughter.)

23 MS. MEIER: And, unfortunately,

24 that city now has had the same person for a long

25 time, but they've had a greater impact.

Page 73



2 There's one thing that I wish to

3 spend a little more time on, was that I was

4 thinking Philadelphia -- Chicago is a very

5 interesting example of the fact of change within a

6 system itself. And you had the 1988

7 Decentralization Act, and I guess it was about

8 five years, seven years -- seven years of a highly

9 decentralized school system, which a lot of

10 authority was placed in the hands of people close

11 to the action. I have some criticisms about that

12 particular law, but the idea was to provide

13 maximum authority to those closest to the action.

14 And then, I'm a little unclear,

15 but somewhere between -- after 1995, that was

16 reversed -- and was there someone between that and

17 Vallas? That's what I can't remember.

18 MS. SEBRING: He came over after a

19 mayoral takeover.

20 MS. MEIER: After?

21 MS. SEBRING: Yes.

22 MS. MEIER: In any case, then we

23 had -- and you all know -- Vallas. And,

24 unfortunately, there wasn't, in Chicago, a

25 Katrina, so we didn't have a maximum opportunity

Page 74



2 to do its best.

3 So from 1995 to the present time,

4 but in terms of this study, in 2005, we moved in

5 the extreme opposite direction. And I thought it

6 was interesting because something similar happened

7 in New York. And in both cases, the notion that

8 is publically available to us is that

9 decentralization was a disaster.

10 I mean, when I ask someone about

11 decentralization in Philadelphia, they -- you

12 know, off the top of their heads, they say that

13 it's a disaster. And if I ask about it in New

14 York, the average New Yorker would say, well, that

15 was a disaster. Mail control has changed that.

16 And what's interesting when I look

17 at the data -- and one of the arguments was it

18 decentralized accountability so that nobody could

19 point to somebody else. You couldn't go around

20 and say, "It's the teachers's fault. It's the

21 parents's fault. It's the resources's fault."

22 It's all accountability. That was what, as I

23 recall, the argument for decentralization of

24 power.

25 Now, I think she kind of did one

Page 75



2 thing very smart, and that was to hire an

3 independent person and group to check on the

4 claims they could make about accountability.

5 Although, I think Duncan -- I know he is -- we all

6 need his support sometimes. But Duncan still

7 keeps walking around acting as though it was his

8 reforms in Chicago that everybody should follow,

9 that it was an example of great success. Just as

10 my mayor, Bloomberg, claims that his record is

11 evidence of school success.

12 And so in thinking about this

13 whole trend, the number of people who have come

14 into our city schools and say, he's super man, you

15 know, people in Philadelphia are a good example.

16 Right? You've been saved by three or four

17 outstanding educators who left amidst a blaze of

18 glory.

19 My friend, Tony Alvarado, came

20 into San Diego following my friend, Tom Payzant,

21 who has since been declared one of America's great

22 chancellors/superintendents, and -- but as what I

23 gather, Bersin and Alvarado's thought was that San

24 Diego was -- needed to be saved. It had just been

25 saved, as far as I gathered from Payzant, who was

Page 76



2 there for ten years, and Bersin and Alvarado came

3 in and they saved it again. And then -- I don't

4 know who's there right now saving it, but I wish

5 them luck. So just thinking how fast we declared

6 decentralization, how little we studied what could

7 have been done to have improved that work that you

8 did. And we did.

9 You know, it happened in

10 Philadelphia, too. There was a charter school

11 movement before the current charter school

12 movement in Philadelphia that my friend, Michelle

13 Fine, was involved with. And what's interesting

14 is each wave comes, the history's rewritten so

15 that you wouldn't know there had been a previous

16 wave, and you never learn anything from the

17 previous wave. And being as old as I am, I have

18 one enormous advantage over most of you. I've

19 been through this over and over and over again.

20 When I came to New York City --

21 from Philadelphia, by the way, where I was a Head

22 Start teacher -- when I came to New York City,

23 the -- I think there were like 33 percent -- I'm

24 slightly making this up -- 33.6 percent -- I'm

25 going to make it up --

Page 77



2 (Laughter.)

3 MS. MEIER: -- 33.6 percent of the

4 students were reading below grade level; and

5 within four or five years, 55 percent were. Now,

6 that was true of the school that I worked at in

7 Central Harlem, and it was true of the people who

8 used this reading program or -- this was in

9 reading -- or that reading program. It even --

10 you and I might know what happened. We used the

11 same test year after year after year.

12 Now, it's true I didn't exactly

13 cheat, but it was hard to forget what the items

14 were in the vocabulary section. And it was sort

15 of, you know, natural for me to occasionally focus

16 on --

17 (Laughter.)

18 MS. MEIER: -- the 20 words so you

19 could determine their score in vocabulary and so

20 on and so forth. Or to tell some stories about

21 wood cutters and trees and logs because I knew

22 there was a paragraph about the rings in a tree,

23 which is not exactly something that every second

24 grader would know. But after a year with me, they

25 knew that.

Page 78



2 Then after five years, we got a

3 new superintendent who was very smart. He changed

4 the test, and the scores went way down. And now,

5 he could bring them up. And then when he left --

6 (Laughter.)

7 MS. MEIER: -- they would change

8 it, and then they went way down and so forth.

9 And so I started off saying that

10 the person I have least trusted is generally those

11 who gather the information. And so I started

12 reading this book with great skepticism because I

13 thought, another study based on data. What's the

14 old slogan? Garbage in, garbage out. Does that

15 ring a bell --

16 (Laughter.)

17 MS. MEIER: -- with some of you?

18 My husband was in the field of -- worked

19 (inaudible) for that matter -- but in the computer

20 room. Garbage in; garbage out. And it's -- I

21 feel that we've been dealing largely with garbage.

22 I can tell you how to get better

23 attendance rates. It is not true that attendance

24 is always taken first period. When -- I think it

25 was 14 years -- I can't remember which chancellor

Page 79



2 came to New York and he sent the focus back there

3 on attendance because if kids aren't there, you

4 can't teach them. And it was miraculous,

5 attendance went way up. We took attendance at a

6 different period. Instead of taking it first

7 period, we took attendance the period right before

8 lunch. And nothing in the law says when we have

9 to take attendance. And lo and behold, attendance

10 was better later in the day. Not after lunch, but

11 right before lunch.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MS. MEIER: And the same was true

14 about dropouts. And it's embarrassing to tell you

15 that -- how good I got at never having a single

16 dropout. You know, it's -- people have argued

17 with me when I say we should just say how many

18 kids come into ninth grade and how many graduate

19 every year. And they tell me all the things that

20 make that complicated. People move from here to

21 there. And I say, you know, but it's a lot harder

22 to fudge that than the way you're doing it.

23 Because do you know, at least in

24 New York, if a child moves out of your

25 jurisdiction, he's not a dropout? Now, how was I

Page 80



2 going to know where all these children went and

3 left? Especially if you had a big class. It's a

4 little harder in a small high school how would you

5 know? They disappeared.

6 MR. CHURCHILL: Excuse me. I have

7 just one suggestion, which is, if you'd grace us a

8 little about Hyde Park.

9 MS. MEIER: The people in the back

10 heard nothing that I said, so shall I start at the

11 beginning?

12 Now, there are 12 kinds -- and I

13 won't give you details. If you're a principal,

14 I'd be happy to -- about how you can have zero

15 dropout. And there are some things you should

16 avoid, too, because -- but since nobody actually

17 really wants to catch you. One of the great

18 discoveries I made in New York City when I noticed

19 a certain kind of cheating was going on -- but

20 even my friend, Tony Alvarado, said, "Listen,

21 don't bring it up." And I said, "It's very hard

22 for me not to bring it up because what I'm worried

23 about is that you believe these scores, Tony, and

24 that you're making policy on the assumption of

25 scores."

Page 81



2 You know, there are reporters,

3 terrible, but there were some schools that were

4 headlined in the New York times, "great

5 improvement," and no one noticed that they were

6 serving a totally different population from the

7 year before. They became gifted. That was the

8 program. They became a gifted school program.

9 And when you see a huge jump in test scores,

10 anyone who knows children and schools knows

11 something's wrong, not something's right.

12 And in any case, I did

13 inadvertently let this fact be known by a friend

14 of mine who's a reporter, who wrote a story about

15 it in the Daily News, and he came back and there

16 he was standing there. And he said, "Don't worry,

17 I didn't like it. I wasn't happy about it, but

18 you warned me, and I don't -- I respect that you

19 felt you had to do it. And he said, "But I want

20 you to do me a favor, come tomorrow night to a

21 party with the school board and because I want to

22 make sure that they don't come after you.

23 And you know, speaking of support,

24 his existence was, for me, an extraordinary

25 advantage to engage in reform because I absolutely

Page 82



2 trusted him. I didn't trust him; I agreed with

3 him, but I trusted him in terms of the mutual

4 relationship that if -- that he would tell me

5 things straight. He liked to argue and that he

6 would tell me when he disagreed, or sometimes he

7 would pretend he disagreed just to get a good

8 argument going. And that was a tradition I liked.

9 But it's interesting, after all

10 the talk and that's just -- I'm somewhat in

11 despair. I sound perky and cheerful and full of

12 jokes, but the fact of the matter is, I'm feeling

13 extremely -- depressed is the wrong word. I'm

14 suppressing anger, and I guess that's kind of a

15 form of depression, because it is an absolute fact

16 that we have the research to tell us that this

17 race we're on is wrong. It's wrong even in its

18 own terms of the gap between scores.

19 And keep in mind, most of the

20 time, not entirely this report, when we speak of

21 achievement, we somehow think we're talking about

22 test scores as though that's what we're -- is an

23 achievement. But even on those terms in which you

24 would think it would be enormously hard, if all

25 you're devoted to is getting those two scores up,

Page 83



2 that we could fail.

3 If all of the national and state

4 and local resources are focused that narrowly, I

5 find it amazing how little change has been in test

6 scores. In fact, I really don't -- that's the

7 thing that troubles me because it seems to me,

8 that back in the old days of New York when we had

9 that leap in test scores, that there'd be more

10 cheating than apparently there is. Or maybe there

11 was so much before that it doesn't matter anymore.

12 That is the advantage of the new

13 scores that's pointing to us, that New York City

14 has, up until this moment, claimed enormous

15 increases in test scores. And the mayor, in fact,

16 got reelected on the basis of his promise to be

17 accountable and his success. A month after he was

18 elected, so to speak, the NAEP results come out

19 and it shows that there's been no change over the

20 eight -- seven years -- or eight years of his

21 reign. The gap was the same. Greater in some;

22 less than in others. Substantially. No chance in

23 NAEP scores.

24 Now, "trust" is a funny word. I

25 think that report has it right, that the trustful

Page 84



2 and respectful relationships are essential, not

3 only to good schools but to democracy. And I

4 think we're suffering from a period in our country

5 of maximum distrust. And I think the schools are

6 a handy place we're putting distrust. I am

7 stunned at the number of business people who have

8 deluded us about the State of the economy for many

9 years, who expect us to trust them now. So

10 sometimes trust is dangerous. And -- but the

11 dilemma is, without it, very little good can be

12 accomplished.

13 And that's why I liked it when the

14 superintendents changed all the time because I

15 didn't even have a chance to trust or distrust --

16 (Laughter.)

17 MS. MEIER: And so I didn't -- you

18 know, it was easy for me because I kept my -- and

19 because I was working in a district where I did

20 trust the superintendent. And that's true for --

21 I've had a charmed career -- that's true for my

22 relationship with the principals that I worked

23 with. It wasn't true about Head Start here in

24 Philadelphia, but it wasn't that I distrusted the

25 head of that. I just didn't respect them.

Page 85



2 And the connection between respect

3 and trust is another complicated question. And I

4 think that this study could get at that, but the

5 degree to which children enter a school in which

6 they have been properly taught to be distrustful

7 is a complicated and long term task, and it's

8 certainly related to what children experience in

9 the majority of their waking hours out of school,

10 reasons to distrust the society and the way it

11 treats their parents and themselves.

12 There was virtually not a kid in

13 my high school who hadn't -- a boy in my high

14 school, a boy of color, who hadn't been arrested

15 at least once and most stopped and frisked many

16 times. I raised my children in New York City not

17 to trust. That's a different experience with your

18 relationship to trust.

19 And my support for small schools

20 is not that it's the only way we can build it, but

21 it's the easiest and I'm sufficiently late or

22 lazy, whatever you want to call it, I wanted to

23 make my job as easy as possible. And working

24 full-time in a small school, I couldn't get

25 anything done, and I didn't want to ask the

Page 86



2 teachers to do more than they were doing because

3 they couldn't do more and we all need some form of

4 tunnel vision and my tunnel was hard enough to get

5 through.

6 I couldn't -- I don't have a very

7 good memory for names, so it was hard enough in a

8 school with a few hundred kids for me to remember

9 their names or their parents's names. It got so

10 hard, I was talking to a parent and you're trying

11 to think, do they have a son or a daughter? And

12 you're trying to figure out how to keep this

13 conversation going? Do I say "her" or "him,"

14 until they give me some hint or the kid comes

15 running over. But it's a lot easier. I knew a

16 lot more names than I would have in a big school.

17 So there are a lot of factors that make it a lot

18 easier. And since I think what we're asking

19 schools to do is virtually impossible, I want to

20 make it as easy as possible.

21 And the place I want to always

22 limit is how do kids and the adults in this

23 community -- one of the values that they -- in

24 their daily life together, that we pass on to

25 kids. And by "values," I mean both intellectual

Page 87



2 and behavior values. What do they -- do they want

3 to join our community? Would they like to be part

4 of an adult world? Not all the time, but would

5 they like to sneak in and see what's happening?

6 I was in a school in -- I don't

7 remember where it was -- but I was visiting the

8 school and afterwards, the adults got together and

9 asked me what I thought, but they first had a

10 little moment where someone was complaining about

11 kids that ran in one door and out the other door

12 of what was the office of the staff room. And

13 they were just using it like a hallway. And I

14 said, "You know, I noticed that, too, and it's the

15 greatest compliment they could pay you. They were

16 curious about what you were doing. And they

17 wanted to know what their teachers were up to when

18 they're not in the classroom, and we should make

19 that as available to them as we could."

20 People used to be concerned

21 because kids would see me on the phone arguing

22 with someone downtown, and they'd say, "There's

23 kids in the room." And I'd say, "That's good.

24 Let them hear what it's like when adults engage in

25 an argument with authority." Occasionally, I

Page 88



2 wasn't doing it too well and I wished they hadn't

3 been there, but I deemed it important for them to

4 know that we're not always successful in our

5 relationships with authority.

6 But I don't think there's anything

7 we can pass on to the next generation except what

8 we live ourselves. And that the study, I think,

9 helps focus on the aspects of schools that I think

10 have a shot of giving kids awareness of what

11 healthy adult relationships are like and how their

12 parents can be included in that world.

13 And I just want to mention that

14 sitting back there is my friend, Lynne Strieb, and

15 she has written a book called, Inviting Families

16 into the Classroom: Learning from a Life in

17 Teaching. And it is that notion of invitation.

18 When I first started my children

19 -- we were in Chicago. When I first brought my

20 kids to public school, the message I got was,

21 leave them at the door. I don't care if they're

22 screaming or crying, leave them at the door

23 because your job is over when you get them here.

24 And especially in poor neighborhoods. And the

25 degree to which we express this disrespect for the

Page 89



2 families of those children is just enormous and

3 it's hard to see. It's hard to notice, but it

4 happens in small and big ways every day.

5 And I think we are more and more

6 coming to the point where we are acknowledging, in

7 a terrible way, those studies that Jensen did

8 years ago which he argued that, "those kids

9 weren't capable of serious intellectual work and

10 we shouldn't bother to offer it to them." And I

11 think a lot of the schools that we think work

12 right now have solved some problems by providing

13 kids with a different substance of the education

14 than we offer well-to-do kids. But really it's

15 stimulating intellectual.

16 The word "academic" has now

17 covered things that were never part of the

18 vocabulary. Reading and writing, for that matter,

19 were not academic subjects. They preceded the

20 academy. But we have distorted the word

21 "academic" and I think we should go back to more

22 honorable words, that the purpose of school is to

23 explore and deepen children's awareness in

24 aesthetic, moral and intellectual issues. There

25 is -- and to satisfy a little bit more of their

Page 90



2 curiosity about the world around them so that it

3 gets deepened over the years and so that a curious

4 four-year-old entering Head Start would be even a

5 more curious 12th grader when they graduated high

6 school. Thanks.

7 (Applause.)

8 MR. CHURCHILL: Well, that is

9 wisdom and that is the challenge, of course, as to

10 how do we bring that into every school. And I

11 think I'll take the privilege of asking the first

12 question, if I may, of Deborah. And of course,

13 first, but what -- you suggested that the thing

14 that the district can do best is to stay out of

15 the way a little bit.

16 MS. MEIER: But tell me, first of

17 all, what's the district?

18 MR. CHURCHILL: I understand.

19 (Inaudible.)

20 MR. CHURCHILL: I understand. But

21 that was the thrust, a little bit about --

22 MS. MEIER: No.

23 MR. CHURCHILL: What should

24 parents be asking the districts to do when they

25 have concerns that their schools don't have that

Page 91



2 trust, don't have the -- and are not producing the

3 intellectual children or child that they should be

4 doing? So while I think we have a wonderful study

5 that says we know what should be done, how do you

6 encourage that or what steps do you take? Because

7 you've said eloquently in some other places that

8 the more pressure you put on the system, the more

9 it's going to cheat. So what is the right kind of

10 pressure that parents should -- and advocates

11 should be putting on the district in order to

12 bring about the kinds of schools that you've been

13 urging on us?

14 MS. MEIER: Well, I think if you

15 want systemic changes that would increase the

16 opportunity for a trust to develop within a

17 school -- now, by the way, I'm still a believer in

18 democracy, despite the fact that I haven't figured

19 out how to make it work. So the criteria is, how

20 to make very strong, real democracies.

21 We teach children about majority

22 voting. I realize there are -- you know, there

23 are three or four states in this union, have

24 one-tenth of the population put together of New

25 York, who can block legislation. You know,

Page 92



2 there's a lot of things still wrong with

3 democracy. So the fact that there are still

4 things wrong with our schools doesn't make me

5 despair. It's when we learn all the wrong lessons

6 from all the research that's out there when we

7 learn what direction we should be moving. So I

8 want us to keep moving in the right direction.

9 When I left New York City -- or

10 before I left New York City, actually, there were

11 in District 4 -- there were a hundred schools

12 where there had been 20 -- 31 -- or maybe it was

13 77 schools that had been 31, and it was

14 nevertheless a very accountable process, and

15 that's probably because the numbers were so small

16 that the people probably trust. Schools were

17 known well. The principals met often and, over

18 time, began to trust each other. There's nothing

19 greater than the distrust between principals. You

20 know, if you got that in your budget.

21 So there are things like school

22 reviews that they -- we do in the pilot schools in

23 Boston. Between the schools and the

24 superintendents, we put together a committee that

25 comes on a regular basis to look and make a

Page 93



2 judgment about schools with access to a lot of

3 information, that included test scores.

4 MR. CHURCHILL: Penny, do you want

5 to take a crack at saying what you think -- your

6 study talks about the district and -- I mean, on

7 the school level -- and I was wondering if you had

8 any thoughts now about what kinds of ways the

9 district can or should intervene in those schools

10 which seem stagnant.

11 MS. SEBRING: Okay. So beyond

12 trust? Beyond building trust?

13 MR. CHURCHILL: Well, how do they

14 go about building that trust that's necessary?

15 Anything that you want to think that would be

16 useful for the outsider to be asking the district

17 to do.

18 MS. SEBRING: Well, in Chicago,

19 actually, the system has adopted the five

20 essential supports as the definition of a good

21 school, and they ask schools to develop their

22 school improvement plan around the five essential

23 supports. And they -- and then the timing is such

24 that they get their survey reports from us, they

25 get their data about how they rank in these five

Page 94



2 areas in time to develop their school improvement

3 plan. And what that encourages, and not in all

4 the schools, by any means, but in some of the

5 networks of schools, that schools actually come

6 together and talk about these results. And it's

7 actually, in a way -- it's a more objective way to

8 do it so that they don't have to sit there and

9 blame each other of various things and they can

10 kind of be more analytical about why is it that

11 trust is low. So I think you can use the data as

12 a -- in your planning.

13 MR. CHURCHILL: Torch?

14 MR. LYTLE: First, I want to

15 commend to the audience a new study by the Wallace

16 Foundation that simply addresses this question of

17 how you teach -- how you connect leadership and

18 learning, and you can access it from publications

19 at the Wallace Foundation website.

20 And this study makes several

21 arguments. The first is that neighborhood or

22 context matters, and that certainly is clear in

23 Chicago where -- one of my concerns in

24 Philadelphia is that schools are treated as

25 uniform and there isn't really any consideration

Page 95



2 in evaluating or making the determination about

3 whether they're doing an adequate job. There

4 isn't any consideration of where they're located

5 and who their student intake is. And those

6 things, obviously, need to be in consideration

7 when determining what help schools need and what

8 reasonable judgments might be made on it.

9 The Wallace Foundation list I'll

10 give you in six seconds: Provide human and

11 financial resources, provide flexibility in

12 pursuit of goals, help organize the data and help

13 people use -- make sense -- and give people help

14 in making sense of it -- that includes parents,

15 kids, teachers and administrators -- have clear

16 direction regarding achievement standards and

17 district-wide curriculum -- that would include an

18 assessment program that's reasonably stable --

19 provide continuing principal and teacher support

20 and development, and maintain leadership

21 stability, something I spoke about earlier. So --

22 and I'm not making those things up. Essentially,

23 those are the district conditions that have

24 emerged from very extensive studies that Wallace

25 has underwritten.

Page 96



2 MS. MEIER: I think there are two

3 things that people often leave out. One of them

4 is time. You know, there was a list in some book

5 I read recently -- maybe it was in that book. No,

6 it was someone else. James Bollman, I think it

7 was -- who listed what fields of books were

8 covered in 1900, in education, and what's covered

9 in the 1920 curriculum.

10 We keep expanding what schools

11 should do as though time is not a factor. And in

12 a great many of the countries that we are

13 competing with -- why must we compete with them?

14 Why can't we all get to do better -- that we are

15 competing with, teachers teach fewer instructional

16 hours and have more time.

17 To assume that we simply should

18 add to the day -- because getting trust with

19 parents, for example, if we really meant it,

20 that's an extraordinarily time-consuming job,

21 especially for kids whose families have

22 experiences in school, too. And a lot of reasons,

23 societal reasons, is we start off with distrust.

24 The amount of time that it takes and how you

25 organize that time and at what price in other

Page 97



2 ways -- you can't expand 24 hours. It's enormous.

3 And I think -- the other thing I

4 think we should think about is due process, which

5 you rather attacked today. I feel safer in an

6 environment where someone with greater power than

7 me can't instantly change my life by deciding to

8 say, you've lost your job. I think it's a value I

9 want to instill in kids because I think it's in

10 the heart of democracy and I think we're in a

11 period right now, and it strikes very close to

12 home for me, in which we think it's an advantage

13 for teachers to believe that we can be fired at

14 any moment because the principal says they're a

15 bad teacher.

16 And whatever the principal or the

17 superintendent says about those teachers, you

18 know, as I said, we are people in a rubber room --

19 we're sex abusers and so forth -- who knows what

20 they're there for? I'm not sure that anyone knows

21 I'm there for sex abuse. But no one knows because

22 no charges have been brought against those people.

23 MR. CHURCHILL: Okay.

24 MS. MEIER: None. They're simply

25 in exile. And so due process, which I think is a

Page 98



2 larger issue, but I think if our schools don't

3 honor it, to say we're preparing kids to defend it

4 is questionable.

5 MR. CHURCHILL: Okay. Let's have

6 some questions. Who would like to start?

7 MR. SEIL: I have many, many

8 questions, and it's a little hard to pick the

9 right one, but --

10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can you

11 speak up?

12 MR. CHURCHILL: I'll give you the

13 microphone.

14 MR. SEIL: -- since Deborah Meier

15 is here, one of the things -- and I do like the

16 study and the characteristics. I think we've done

17 some study that indicates maybe there's some

18 others.

19 But in any event, I want to ask a

20 different kind of question because the paradigm

21 that Deborah said in Central Park East was very

22 different from the paradigm of test scores and "No

23 Child Left Behind." It had to do with authentic

24 performance, portfolios, kids doing portfolios and

25 presentations, kids going out in the real world --

Page 99



2 and this is in high school -- going out in the

3 real world and doing apprenticeships, the

4 curriculum being somewhat interdisciplinary and

5 coherent, where science and math people work

6 together and social studies and English people

7 work together. And if I'm correct in this, I

8 believe that as a result of all of that,

9 97 percent of the kids graduated and went on to

10 college. And that --

11 MS. MEIER: Kids that are counted

12 in graduation.

13 MR. SEIL: I'm sorry?

14 MR. CHURCHILL: Depends on how you

15 count graduation, of course.

16 MR. SEIL: Well, all right, but

17 I'm assuming that's a pretty accurate statistic

18 that most of the kids who do that kind of work

19 they did got interested in school, motivated and

20 wanted -- and yet somehow that whole paradigm has

21 been lost. That's my depression. That that

22 paradigm of -- instead of that, you have, you

23 know, these standardized tests and one single

24 measure and the movement away from that kind of

25 learning.

Page 100



2 So I'd like the panel to comment,

3 because I think the study is -- while it's good,

4 it focuses on the current paradigm, that the test

5 score paradigm of improvement as opposed to

6 changing the system to make it much more relevant

7 to kids and flexible and -- and working within a

8 system that's a 21st century system rather than a

9 19th century system.

10 MS. SEBRING: Hard question. I

11 agree that people have lost perspective on the

12 test scores. And, you know, we as researchers, we

13 know that there are these broader objectives that

14 we have for kids learning, yet the only thing we

15 have are these more narrow test scores. So I

16 think that it's really important for school

17 systems and everybody to have perspective on what

18 they represent.

19 And at the same time, we did a

20 study of authentic learning maybe ten years ago

21 and we actually collected student work, we

22 collected teachers's assignments, and we defined

23 learning and authentic learning in a much broader

24 way with the help of Fred Newman. And so I think,

25 in practice, we should be doing much more of that.

Page 101



2 MR. CHURCHILL: And the studies

3 showed very positive results.

4 MS. SEBRING: Yes, and the study

5 actually didn't correlate with the test result --

6 test scores.

7 MR. CHURCHILL: But didn't you

8 actually look at different kinds of teaching and

9 why maybe not looking at different measures of

10 success, didn't you find that different styles of

11 teaching actually made a difference in how

12 children were doing?

13 MS. SEBRING: Yes, the -- you

14 know, these teachers who gave more challenging

15 assignments got more -- got higher level of

16 products from their students. So yes, it did make

17 a difference.

18 MS. MEIER: Is it called

19 Campbell's law? What you measure is what you --

20 becomes corrupted in the process of measuring it.

21 And that's a danger in any system you use,

22 including performance assessments.

23 There's 35 schools in New York

24 State that even when the shift in the paradigm

25 happened, because of some prior very clever

Page 102



2 political maneuvers on the part of the previous

3 superintendent, Tom Sobol, managed to have held on

4 to their right to continue to graduate high school

5 students on the basis of performance assessment.

6 Now, part of the agreement was to

7 take a study group and you could study not just

8 the process itself, but what happened to those

9 kids and they would do controlled studies and so

10 forth. Of course, that never, ever happened.

11 They finally hired some

12 psychometricianist and one lawyer -- because, I

13 think, Mills thought they would be on his side --

14 to look at what we were doing in New York, and

15 they only had about three, four months to do it.

16 So you -- but they said, "It looks terrific and it

17 looks like the results are much better, even

18 considering control groups, so we recommend you

19 not eliminate -- you not get rid of it, that you

20 have these 35 state schools -- schools in the

21 State, we suggest you do what you originally said

22 you'd do, study them."

23 Answer: This is ten years later

24 and they haven't done a bit of that. And we're

25 satisfied if they could just hold on until

Page 103



2 something happens in the world. But you are

3 right, it's an incredibly dangerous moment, I

4 think, for what we're looking for at schools.

5 MR. CHURCHILL: We have time to

6 take one more question.

7 MS. MEIER: Can I say one thing

8 about what you were saying? There are so many

9 examples of what could be done. It's particularly

10 painful for me because we got $50 million -- I

11 can't get over that -- $50 million from Annenberg

12 to do exactly that and a new chancellor came in

13 and a new superintendent and a state

14 superintendent came in and said no.

15 MR. JOSEPH: Torch, could you

16 answer that?

17 MR. CHURCHILL: Torch, do you want

18 to take a crack at that?

19 MR. LYTLE: No, I want to answer a

20 different question. Sorry.

21 I want to go back to markets just

22 for a second because I think one of the cautions

23 that everyone in the audience needs to be acutely

24 aware of is that the policies we are being asked

25 to abide by are driven by notions of competition

Page 104



2 and market choice, and I have yet to find capital

3 systems are wholly equitable in terms of how they

4 work.

5 I think Deborah makes the point

6 repeatedly, but the first purpose of public school

7 in the U.S. has been to help us understand how to

8 live together in a democratic society. And to the

9 degree that we are competing for admissions for

10 schools and competing for test scores, we are, in

11 a sense, defeating those purposes, so I worry a

12 great deal about where we are headed. I feel that

13 the kind of schooling that is being afforded to

14 the least advantaged kids continues to decline in

15 quality, not increase, and we need extreme caution

16 not to be seduced by a whole lot of the hoola

17 that's going on currently.

18 MR. CHURCHILL: Okay. Let's have

19 some applause for the panel.

20 (Applause.)

21 MR. CHURCHILL: I understand that

22 during the break you will be able to actually

23 purchase copies of the book out in the foyer, and

24 our panels are here and I'm sure will be delighted

25 to talk to you during the break if you don't

Page 105



2 surround them too deep.

3 MR. JOSEPH: We have gone into the

4 break and we're only going to go into the next one

5 by a minute or two. So please take your break

6 quickly.

7 - - -

8 (Whereupon, a recess was had

9 between 11:22 to 11:37 a.m.)

10 - - -

11 MR. JOSEPH: One of the things

12 that I have to tell you, and I'm disappointed that

13 we have failed already, is that sticking to the

14 schedule has a real reason for it. And one of the

15 reasons is the best part of these symposiums often

16 are the breaks. That's where people get to talk

17 to each other and they get to generate ideas and

18 synergize what is happening. So now you know why

19 I'm going to be, again, a stickler and we are

20 going to try to end this session on time, even

21 though Sonya knows that I'm a troublemaker and

22 she's not going to be happy.

23 But with that, I introduce you to

24 our wonderful staff member, who's going to

25 introduce the panel and lead this panel. Sonya

Page 106



2 Kerr, thank you so much.

3 (Applause.)

4 MS. KERR: Thanks, Don. Well, we

5 people who deal with education and often go to

6 school meetings understand time constraints

7 because we're always under them. So we'll

8 probably try and adapt here and get through in our

9 time frame.

10 It's great to be here and we have

11 a very exciting panel for our next topic, which

12 is, "Has 'special education' lost its way?" Our

13 three panelists are: Martin Ellis, Umar

14 Abdullah-Johnson, and Dr. Theresa Perry. I am

15 going to briefly introduce each of them and then

16 ask them to just give you a synopsis of where

17 they're coming from on this topic, and then we

18 will have a bit of a discussion by Martin about

19 the current state of inclusion of children with

20 disabilities in Pennsylvania, and we will then

21 segue into questions and discussion about

22 appropriate education -- appropriate use of

23 special education, and the inappropriate use of

24 special education and disproportionality of

25 African-American students in special education.

Page 107



2 So Martin Ellis is a long-time

3 parent advocate in special education in

4 Pennsylvania. He is also the parent of a child

5 with a disability, and he had the distinction of

6 serving as the chair of the Bureau of Directors

7 Advisory Panel for the Gaskin case on this

8 restrictive environment.

9 Martin, would you like to say

10 hello, briefly?

11 MR. ELLIS: I began in this field

12 a long time ago as a psychologist and family

13 therapist. I moved into training and evaluation

14 and now I'm a special education advocate.

15 MS. KERR: Thank you.

16 Next is Dr. Theresa Perry, and

17 Dr. Perry is a professor of African Studies and

18 Education at Simmons College. She has been

19 instrumental in many research projects on the

20 education of African-American students. She was

21 coauthor of Young, Gifted and Black, and other

22 numerous studies in this area. Dr. Perry?

23 DR. PERRY: Good morning. I'm

24 primarily interested in how we normalize high

25 achievement for African-American students. And

Page 108



2 I'm also interested in how we build one movement

3 between black parents in suburban communities and

4 in urban communities to combat the multiple ways

5 that black students, whether they are middle or

6 upper class or poor, experience separate and

7 unequal education in the context of color blind

8 racism.

9 MS. KERR: And our final panel

10 member is Umar Abdullah-Johnson, who is a

11 nationally certified school psychologist. He

12 works in the Philadelphia area with many students,

13 and I'm sure he will introduce himself at this

14 time.

15 MR. JOHNSON: I'm an evaluator. I

16 specialize in differential values of students with

17 learning disabilities, emotional disturbances, and

18 mental retardation, particularly African-American

19 males, and the focus of my work is upon coming up

20 with a stronger definition of what a learning

21 disability is as opposed to those that are

22 currently used now. And, basically, my premise is

23 that the reason why we see so many students of

24 color, especially African American and Hispanic

25 kids, put in special ed is because of the socially

Page 109



2 constructed nature of what a learning disability,

3 mental retardation and emotional disturbance is.


5 I would be remiss if we didn't try

6 to explain why we're talking about both special

7 education and, in essence, the education of

8 students who are African American in the same

9 panel. The reason is because, as most of you

10 know, when special education began, and it began

11 in Pennsylvania many years ago, one of the models

12 we looked to was Brown v. Board of Education and

13 the need for equal education, the need for fair

14 education for everybody regardless of what their

15 differences might be.

16 And here we are, in 2010, and we

17 know, based on study after study, national

18 studies, state studies, that students who have

19 differences as a result of disabilities are not

20 fully included in their educational student

21 environments and we know that students who are

22 African American continue to lag behind in

23 academic achievement skills.

24 So what we're asking today is,

25 What's going on and has special education lost its

Page 110



2 way? We're going to start with Martin describing

3 what we are as far as students with disabilities

4 and inclusion. Martin?

5 MR. ELLIS: Thank you very much.

6 If you could put the first slide up.

7 Has special education lost its

8 way? My first answer is no and yes. And as an

9 example of the no, special education has not lost

10 its way, I'll show you this picture here of a

11 young lady with Down's syndrome. She is -- this

12 is a formal professional picture of her high

13 school prom that occurred this year in Spring

14 City. This young lady has been fully included

15 since preschool, has not known any segregated kind

16 of services at all, and this September, is

17 enrolled at West Chester University auditing a

18 Theater 101 class and has an internship lined up

19 as a theater intern as part of her transition

20 plan.

21 This is a really typical high

22 school prom. You can see the gown, the

23 limousines, the DJ, the deserts. I'm sorry.

24 She's with her high school friends and students.

25 It occurred between the hours of 8:00 p.m. and

Page 111



2 1:00 a.m. on, I think it was, a Friday night or a

3 Saturday night. I'm not sure which one it was.

4 And she had a ball. Okay.

5 This same young girl -- we have

6 slide two -- the same young girl, had she been

7 born, say, two generations ago, could have ended

8 up here, actually. The school she went to is also

9 in Spring City, the same place that Pennhurst is.

10 She could be here. And I think that Pennhurst is

11 called a school. I'm not sure it was really that

12 much of a school. If they had a prom at all, it

13 would have been kind of a fake prom. It wouldn't

14 have been an inclusive prom because it would have

15 been on the grounds of Pennhurst, and it would be

16 just the other residents of Pennhurst. It would

17 probably not have been on a Saturday night. It

18 probably would have been sometime during the day

19 because that would be when staff would be most

20 likely to want to do that sort of thing and it

21 would be very inconvenient to have it, you know,

22 at 8 o'clock to 1:00 a.m.

23 So I include this slide to say our

24 vision has not been lost. If you compare slide

25 one with this, we have really come a long way.

Page 112



2 When you think that that same young lady could

3 have been right here two generations ago, you can

4 see how far we've come.

5 However, there is a part two.

6 Here we have a picture from last year of a special

7 education prom. What is a special education prom?

8 It's a separate prom. At this prom, you don't go

9 with your classmates; you go with your prom buddy,

10 which is how they justify inclusion. It's not

11 your regular classmates. If there was any regular

12 students there, they called it a prom buddy.

13 When did this occur? This

14 occurred on 10:00 a.m. on a Friday morning. Who

15 would go to a prom, a high school prom, at

16 10:00 a.m. on a Friday morning? Who was there?

17 150 special education students from all over

18 Cumberland County. So it wasn't one school; it

19 was a whole bunch of schools. I guess they

20 decided, okay, well, you know, we better have a

21 prom. These guys are not included, so they're not

22 going to a regular education prom, but we'll set

23 up a special education prom.

24 And you can see the reason for the

25 headline. It should have read, "Dancing the Night

Page 113



2 Away," but the reporter obviously realized that

3 was not going to work here, so it's, "Dancing the

4 Day Away." And who's here? Parents, teachers,

5 aides and buddies, and they all look like they're

6 joining in.

7 If you go to the first slide, at

8 the regular prom, parents and teachers were way

9 over in the corner. They were not dancing with

10 the students.

11 Okay. So I'm looking at these

12 pictures and I'm thinking, gee, isn't this closer

13 to Pennhurst than the first slide? You know, it's

14 an atypical time of day, it's totally -- it's

15 noninclusive. It shows me that there's a lot of

16 Pennhurst in this slide. So where have we come?

17 How is it that we could have the first slide for a

18 young lady, and this slide? Both live in

19 Pennsylvania, both within a year of each other,

20 both high school proms, and I think that really

21 does summarize where we are in special education

22 inclusion in this state at this time. I would say

23 the majority of special ed experience for students

24 with disabilities is more this slide than the

25 first slide.

Page 114



2 Well, for the past five years,

3 we've been battling with this Bureau of Special

4 Education to increase school inclusion in

5 Pennsylvania to move from this slide to the first

6 slide. And when we started five years ago,

7 Pennsylvania was 48th in the nation and we are now

8 43rd in the nation. So we've made some

9 improvements, but we're still way down there on

10 the bottom, which is not at all what we wanted.

11 An earlier presenter mentioned the

12 -- used the cake analogy, baking a cake. I could

13 use the same analogy as the chair of the panel

14 did, but when we started the panel, we were

15 expecting an oven like a commercial Vulcan, you

16 know, with 3500 BTU's, you know, it's something

17 you can really cook with; and, instead, we were

18 given an Easy-Bake Oven, something that was

19 totally not what we were expecting or wanted or

20 could even do the job.

21 So you have in your packet some

22 statistics from the five years of the settlement

23 agreement.

24 MS. KERR: Start at Page 106.

25 MR. MARTIN: But I'm also

Page 115



2 projecting it onto the -- on the screen here.

3 This is the chart the Pennsylvania

4 Department of Education brings out whenever you

5 talk about LRE. The reason is because it looks

6 like LRE has increased over the five years of the

7 settlement. But --

8 MS. KERR: Excuse me, Martin. For

9 those in the audience, it's on Page 112.

10 MR. MARTIN: If I tell you that

11 this statistic here is made up of 50 percent of

12 one group, and that one group really did improve

13 and that group was specific learning disabilities,

14 you'll see that this graph is really misleading.

15 But what isn't misleading is this

16 one here. This is the percentage of students in

17 other cities, not the neighborhood school. These

18 are approved private schools. That -- the kind of

19 the epitome of noninclusion is -- are the

20 settings. That changed not one little bit in the

21 five years of the settlement agreement.

22 And if you go to the next page,

23 you will see the LRE statistics for students with

24 autism. And this is the kind of benchmark -- the

25 triangulars here included 80 percent of, which has

Page 116



2 become kind of the gold standard in terms of

3 measuring or having benchmark inclusion. You'll

4 see the students with autism are improved, but if

5 you play the graph out, in order to get up to

6 80 percent of students, 80 percent included, it's

7 going to take another 14 years to get to that

8 benchmark.

9 Next one is, we look at students

10 with emotional disturbance, I think is the term

11 that's used. They've also increased a little bit.

12 But it will take another 12 years in order to get

13 to the benchmark of 80 percent.

14 And here's the -- kind of the

15 worst news: Other disability categories really

16 got no better or even worse. Actually, if you

17 have deaf/blindness, you were better off before

18 Gaskin than after Gaskin.

19 If you flip to the two pages here,

20 you'll get to students with mental retardation.

21 The next one. This is what we're looking for.

22 This is where the young lady on slide one would

23 be. Went from less than ten percent to 15 percent

24 over the five years. However, look at this one.

25 This is other settings. That's increasing. And

Page 117



2 if you take out -- if you draw the graph out, how

3 long would it take for students with mental

4 retardation to get up to 80 percent goal is

5 84 years. At the current rate of change in

6 Pennsylvania it's another 84 years.

7 Okay. Multiple disabilities is

8 the next one. Here, we have the graph down here.

9 You're never going to reach 80 percent here. If

10 you have multiple disabilities in Pennsylvania,

11 that flat line.

12 So the picture that the Department

13 of Education would like to present to us is, oh,

14 yes, we fully support Gaskin. Oh, yes, we fully

15 support full inclusion. The facts, however, show

16 that, at least over the last five years, that has

17 not panned out.

18 Okay. If we go back to my first

19 PowerPoint, I can tell you why. Why has this

20 happened? Why do we not expect to see the

21 improvement that we all wished for? And one of

22 the clearest reasons was a lack of leadership.

23 Five years ago, when the

24 settlement was signed, we were all expecting to

25 use another analogy, a basketball analogy. We all

Page 118



2 wanted LeBron James to come out on the basketball

3 field, and what we got was a person who didn't

4 even want to suit up. And lack of leadership is a

5 killer. One sure way of deep-sixing something is

6 to put the wrong person in charge or no person in

7 charge. And we had a battle with leadership the

8 entire five years.

9 The second reason is that

10 inclusion is not seen as a civil rights issue.

11 It's still, in Pennsylvania and other places, seen

12 as an education issue. And if it's seen as an

13 education issue, teachers are the experts. If

14 it's seen as a civil rights issue, we are all

15 interested and experts and you kind of claim -- no

16 one group can claim the monopoly on civil rights.

17 But until school inclusion is seen as a civil

18 rights issue, I don't think we're going to get too

19 far.

20 And the third reason is that

21 people do not see segregation as abuse. It's a

22 form of abuse when you have children with low

23 expectations, when you stigmatize children, when

24 you take them out of the typical world and you

25 build simulated environments, when you take away

Page 119



2 their opportunities in life, that's abuse, in my

3 book. That's child abuse. That's education

4 abuse. But it's not seen like that in the State.

5 It's seen as, well, acceptable. It's seen as

6 acceptable.

7 And finally, I think one of the

8 reasons for this is there's a lack of

9 identification for students with disabilities. If

10 I went into a typical classroom and asked the

11 teacher, "Can you give a list of the five best

12 students" -- students that come on time, hand

13 their homework in, get good grades, act as good

14 role models, are in tune to classes -- and I say

15 to that, to the teacher, "Okay, I've taken those

16 five, they're coming to my classroom," the

17 teacher's going to kind of look at me, "Why are

18 you taking those students from my classroom?"

19 But I wonder what the reaction

20 would be if I said, "Well, who are the students

21 here with IEP's? Can I take them for my class?"

22 I bet you the majority of responses would be,

23 "Okay." Not "my goodness, who do you think you

24 are? What are you doing? They're a part of my

25 class. They belong here."

Page 120



2 I think my ten minutes is up. We

3 have a long way to go.


5 (Applause.)

6 MS. KERR: Thank you, Martin.

7 Okay. Thank you, Martin. I think we understand

8 where we are in terms of forms of segregation

9 involving students with disabilities.

10 I wanted to ask Umar to speak a

11 little bit, if he would, about students who are

12 African American and why -- what seems to be

13 happening with respect to identification of

14 students who are African American and whether

15 they're being accurately or inaccurately

16 identified for special education and segregated as

17 a result.

18 MR. JOHNSON: I think the only

19 problem that's probably bigger than inclusion is

20 inaccurate identification. And, unfortunately,

21 too many African-American and Hispanic students

22 are being inaccurately identified with

23 disabilities that they do not have. They're being

24 diagnosed as having learning disabilities, in

25 particular.

Page 121



2 Mental retardation is also the big

3 issue, particularly in Pennsylvania where

4 African-American males are four times as likely to

5 be referred for mental retardation evaluations,

6 but four times less likely to be referred for

7 gifted evaluation.

8 Emotional disturbance has become

9 almost exclusively a black issue, particularly

10 with African-American males. And I think the

11 reason why this is done is because enough

12 attention is not being paid to the relationship

13 between an inadequate regular education and

14 special education. You can't fix special

15 education until you fix regular education.

16 For example, in Pennsylvania,

17 57 percent of the fourth grade African-American

18 males cannot read on their grade level.

19 57 percent of the fourth grade black boys in the

20 State can't read on grade level. So do we assume

21 that all 57 percent of those boys have a learning

22 disability? Many schools will because,

23 ultimately, you have two decisions you can make.

24 One decision: Say he's got a disability, put him

25 in special ed. Okay? It becomes a scapegoat.

Page 122



2 You put the kids in special ed who you don't want

3 to help.

4 The other thing you can do is help

5 them and get them up to where they need to be.

6 That takes work. That takes effort. With special

7 ed, you get money. Keeping them in regular ed and

8 helping them because you know they haven't

9 received an adequate education, you're not going

10 to get extra funding for that. That's going to be

11 done with the child. So you have to look at how

12 special ed is being used, okay, to get rid of the

13 children who no one really wants to help.

14 A learning disability, just like

15 mental retardation and emotional disturbances, are

16 socially constructed. They're not organic.

17 Blindness, deafness, traumatic brain injury, those

18 are organic. You don't have to be an expert to

19 tell that a child can't see. But when you say a

20 child has a learning disability, you're making an

21 assumption that they can't learn, and a lot of

22 times we make that assumption based on the

23 scantiest of evidence, and looking at the ability

24 achievement scores has gotten us in a whole lot of

25 trouble because there's a million-and-one reasons

Page 123



2 why a child is not where they are: Frequent

3 suspension, inadequate education, high teacher

4 turnover, poor education.

5 For example, in Philadelphia, only

6 29 percent of the black males were able to get a

7 high school diploma. That's the worst graduation

8 rate in the country, tied with New York City. So,

9 again, you have to look at regular education and

10 how it actually feeds the over identification of

11 special ed students as an excuse for why they're

12 not learning.

13 MS. KERR: Thank you, Umar.

14 I wanted just to mention for the

15 audience, in case you didn't see it in the packet,

16 in Session 3, Page 146, is a summary article

17 explaining the concerns and the extensive research

18 that's been done on over identification of

19 students of color into special education.

20 Dr. Perry, I want to give you an

21 opportunity to come and address.

22 DR. PERRY: First, I want to

23 comment that I think it's curious that the

24 report -- was that the State report you

25 referenced?

Page 124



2 MS. KERR: (Nods head.)

3 DR. PERRY: -- did not segregate

4 data. So we don't know what the progress is in

5 inclusion by the data you presented for black

6 kids.

7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

8 (Inaudible.)

9 DR. PERRY: Yes, but it's not in

10 the report. Yes. And so, that's the first thing

11 I wanted to make note of.

12 The second thing is, could you

13 have put up an image of a black kid with autism

14 who was -- had had as much progress as the -- in

15 terms of the white kid with autism? Because we

16 know just as black kids are over identified as

17 learning disabled, emotional difficulties and

18 mental retardation, they're under identified with

19 things like autism, dyslexia and other issues.

20 So I guess the first point I want

21 to make is that, at every point, we have to insist

22 on having data that shows what's happening to

23 black and Latino kids as opposed to what's

24 happening to white kids in special education.

25 The second thing I want to say is

Page 125



2 that the real issue continues to be the various

3 ways we figure out how we offer separate and

4 unequal education. And I want to challenge people

5 to look beyond urban districts, to look at your

6 suburban and affluent communities, and also to get

7 rid of the notion that is simply poor African

8 American kids who are being separated and given

9 unequal education.

10 And I'm just going to give you

11 some anecdotes. About four years ago, a black

12 psychiatrist was doing her work in the Boston

13 area, and she happened to be sent to this very

14 elite and affluent school district to work with a

15 group of three black boys in special education.

16 And she was stunned when she went to their class

17 and they were in the basement of the school

18 building, a room with no windows, and the class

19 was almost exclusively black and brown boys. And

20 she was renting from a neighbor, who was a very

21 progressive community activist, and when she told

22 her about this class, and they said, "That

23 couldn't be, this is so-and-so town."

24 The next thing I want to tell you

25 is just last year, in another high income suburban

Page 126



2 town, a couple -- and the male in the couple

3 happened to be a law professor, a black law

4 professor -- and in November, they figured out

5 that their five-year-old kid had been placed in

6 special ed. And the school district was -- wasn't

7 chastened by the fact that he was a lawyer or that

8 he was upper income or that they hadn't gotten

9 permission to put the kid in special education.

10 Last semester, I was teaching a

11 course at Simmons for school leaders called Race,

12 Culture, Identity and Achievement, a seminar

13 series, and two of the black women who were on the

14 staff, had very high level positions at a suburban

15 district, they told the class of how their kids

16 had been pulled out -- and one of the black woman

17 was third generation college, her grandmother had

18 a Ph.D. -- about how their kids had been pulled

19 out and put in small reading and math classes, and

20 they began to query, "Who were the people in their

21 classes?" And they were all black kids.

22 This last incident happened just

23 maybe a month ago. I was -- met a colleague of

24 mine, and her daughter has been a great advocate

25 for special ed kids, and now she's in a suburban

Page 127



2 elite district, director of special education, and

3 she told me that 50 percent of the kids in --

4 50 percent of the black kids in the suburban

5 district are in special education.

6 So we tend to focus on what's

7 happening to black kids and we kind of ignore

8 what's happening in urban districts. But I think

9 that suburban districts and urban districts have

10 figured out very sophisticated ways to normalize

11 the delivery of separate and unequal education to

12 black kids.

13 I noted that in Penny's report, I

14 would have liked to have seen what kind of

15 education and who the kids were in those magnet

16 and exam schools that we didn't look at. In my

17 town in Boston, two years ago, myself and John

18 Diamond, we worked at a small pilot school, and

19 they didn't have a -- they didn't have a library.

20 The elementary school did, the high school did.

21 They didn't have a library. They didn't have a

22 gym. You know, they didn't have science labs.

23 And there's no discourse. The discourse, I think,

24 over the last 10 or 15 years has been choice

25 rather than equal education opportunity and not

Page 128



2 about the multiple ways that -- my students came

3 to visit this school, but at the same time, we

4 went to a program at the Laddin School in Boston,

5 and they walked in and they said, "Is this a

6 public school?" Because they had been to the

7 other school.

8 So here's my thing: I think that

9 we have to begin to make -- have black parents

10 from the City and the suburbs have one

11 conversation, and we have to begin to demand that

12 people provide information on the percentage of

13 black kids that are educated in both separate and

14 unequal sites in urban and suburban communities,

15 because it's only if we make that information

16 public that black parents from -- because I think

17 many black parents now realize that in these

18 suburban systems, the education that their kids

19 are getting is no different than if they had

20 remained in urban communities.

21 So I think that the task is to

22 begin to create the context where people have the

23 data so they can organize and also to begin to, as

24 policymakers, to routinely make that data

25 available in terms of the kind of curriculums

Page 129



2 available in the other schools, the kind of

3 resources that are available, but more

4 importantly, the way segregation occurs, the

5 way -- not only special education issues as a tool

6 for segregation, but all kind of programs are used

7 to segregate black kids, probably done in the most

8 sophisticated way in suburban districts. Thank

9 you.

10 (Applause.)

11 MS. KERR: Thank you, Dr. Perry.

12 I want to pose some questions to

13 the panel and give each of you an opportunity to

14 jump in on them.

15 First question is: What are the

16 barriers or the conditions we need to improve so

17 that whether a child is a child with a disability

18 and is being wrongfully segregated or the student

19 is African American and is being segregated by the

20 use of special education, what kinds of

21 conditions -- what would change this? How would

22 you change this?

23 Umar, do you have a comment on

24 what we could do?

25 MR. JOHNSON: Well, firstly, it's

Page 130



2 hard to improve education when the teachers are

3 not accountable to the community where the

4 students live. Most children, particularly

5 African American children, the teachers do not

6 come from their community; they come from outside.

7 And they are not stakeholders in the child's

8 success. And by virtue of that, you either have

9 to make them accountable or you're going to have

10 to improve or increase the number of teachers who

11 are coming directly from that community.

12 When you look specifically at

13 African-American males who are the hardest hit in

14 private education, private education, charter

15 school education, you find that there's almost no

16 African American male teachers. So one of the

17 things you have to do is you have to increase the

18 number of teachers who look like the students

19 they're serving. And a lot of times we ignore

20 that argument, but the research is clear that

21 teachers pay the most attention to students in the

22 classroom who look like their own children. So if

23 you want African-American males to be successful,

24 then they have to be taught by African American

25 males.

Page 131



2 You also have to look at the

3 historical intent of public education, which was

4 never particularly designed to teach black

5 children in the first place, and so most of the

6 schools where our children dominate, although they

7 are the majority, the system under which they're

8 learning is not really conducive to what they

9 need.

10 And so I think you have to look at

11 teacher accountability. I think you have to look

12 at restructuring public education so it works.

13 And I think, lastly, the definitions of success

14 and the definitions that we're using for special

15 education also have to be modified.

16 MS. KERR: Dr. Perry, would you

17 address the same question, and particularly, would

18 you focus on how -- what people can do, what

19 schools can do to address high achievement for

20 African-American students?

21 DR. PERRY: Well, before I get to

22 that, I just -- I mean, I think that many of you

23 saw the CNN study whereon -- where they tried to

24 replicate the doll study? How many of you saw

25 that? Do you remember that the highest -- the

Page 132



2 question -- this is with the four-year-olds -- the

3 question that indicated the strongest white bias

4 was a question where the researcher asked them,

5 with kids of all different hues -- these are

6 four-year-olds -- show me -- "Point to the dumb

7 kid." And over 78 percent of white kids pointed

8 to the black kid. And I think the thing that

9 Margaret Beale Spencer noted was that white skin

10 bias did not change significantly as the kids grew

11 older because they tested two different groups of

12 kids.

13 I think one of the things that --

14 by and large, many people still think that African

15 Americans are intellectually inferior. And I

16 think it's evident by the fact that the children

17 so easily pointed to, without hesitation, to the

18 black kid as the dumb child. And they so easily

19 pointed to the black kid as the child the teachers

20 and adults don't like.

21 So I think that -- I think we

22 really have to challenge teacher's notion,

23 educator's notion of intelligence, of what is

24 intelligence. I think Lauren Resnick's work that

25 the malleability of intelligence and intelligence

Page 133



2 is a muscle that only -- that develops by work.

3 And we simultaneously have to challenge the notion

4 and make teachers aware of the notion of the -- of

5 their acting out idea that black African American

6 kids are intellectually inferior.

7 But I think that the panel and

8 myself, we've been looking at environments that

9 normalize high achievement for African American

10 kids, and I won't go through all of it, but I do

11 say what we think is necessary and sufficient is

12 that the environments are organized such that

13 everything about them is based on the belief that

14 you can be an achiever, that once you work, once

15 you walk in those institutions, that they're

16 organized around the belief that if you're in this

17 institution, everybody can be an achiever, that

18 everybody can be a full member and can be an

19 achiever. So when a kid steps in there, they know

20 this. It's not organized around the belief that a

21 few kids are and some kids are not. And those

22 institutions systematically hand over to kids the

23 beliefs and behaviors that are necessary in order

24 to be an achiever: Persistence, thoroughness,

25 commitment to doing one's very best, and hard

Page 134



2 work.

3 Now, there's some things that are

4 necessary, but not sufficient, but these schools,

5 irregardless of pedagogical process, irregardless

6 of who the teachers are -- and what it means is

7 that those institutions systematically push back

8 at the document narrative that African American

9 kids are underachievers because they are able to

10 help kids define themselves as achievers and that

11 kid -- and to think about it, identities are the

12 stories we tell ourselves in the world about who

13 we are and our attempt to live in accordance with

14 those stories. And identities are one's

15 standpoints that make a modicum of self direction

16 possible. So they hand over to kids the capacity

17 to achieve and they change how kids see

18 themselves.

19 (Applause.)

20 MS. KERR: Martin, speak up.

21 MR. ELLIS: I think the question

22 was what would drive change?

23 MS. KERR: Yes.

24 MR. ELLIS: I think in school

25 inclusion, it's very clear that parents drive

Page 135



2 change in the school districts. It's still way

3 too common for parents to know more than the

4 teachers at an IEP meeting about differentiating

5 instruction, about the standard school year, all

6 the -- LRE, all the usual things that we would

7 think teachers would know that still don't. So in

8 Pennsylvania, if we ever go to a tipping point

9 with parents who really were a critical mass, then

10 there would be some -- a lot of systemic changes.

11 MS. KERR: Thank you. We are

12 sitting with like eight minutes left. So I do

13 want to give some -- well, 20 --

14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 18.

15 MS. KERRY: Okay. Good. We're

16 good. (Inaudible.) So I will bring up two other

17 important issues that I thought we weren't going

18 to get to.

19 One of the things that people who

20 deal with education a lot hear about consistently

21 is funding. It's all a problem of funding. We

22 can't have kids included if they have significant

23 disabilities; we're not testing correctly because

24 we don't have the funding; we're not providing,

25 you know, enough instruction to the kids who are

Page 136



2 African American because of funding.

3 And I'd like the panelists to

4 address the issue of funding in terms of how we're

5 educating or not educating students who are

6 African Americans, students with disabilities.

7 MR. JOHNSON: Well, with special

8 ed funding, the biggest problem in Pennsylvania is

9 the oversight. How it's spent. School districts

10 can spend special ed money on anything they want,

11 including new uniforms for the football team, new

12 computers for the staff. And I see heads moving

13 around, so y'all know exactly what I'm talking

14 about. And I think until there's more oversight

15 from the State and federal government in terms of

16 how special ed money is spent, it's never going to

17 benefit the children it's designed for in the

18 first place; so that's number one.

19 Number two, I do not believe that

20 a lack of funding is the principal cause of

21 educational failure, essentially not for African

22 American children. If you go back into history,

23 reconstruction, post slavery civil rights, black

24 people had no problem educating their own children

25 with so-called inferior books, inferior teachers,

Page 137



2 inferior schools and they did an excellent job of

3 doing it; so it's not the money.

4 Plus, also, the research shows

5 that most money that comes into schools is spent

6 on personnel. It's not spent on other resources.

7 So you bring in a couple million more dollars to

8 Philadelphia or any other school district, they're

9 just going to hire more people who they assume can

10 make a difference. The money does not go to the

11 classroom.

12 So number one, there has to be

13 greater accountability of spending. There has to

14 be an increase on using money -- an emphasis on

15 using money for resources other than hiring more

16 staff. And I think in terms of special ed, the

17 greater part of that money that comes with that

18 child needs to be spent on that child and not for

19 some other nonrelated school function.

20 MS. KERR: Thank you. Martin?

21 MR. ELLIS: I ditto everything in

22 terms of students with disabilities.

23 MS. KERR: Okay.

24 MR. ELLIS: Money is not the

25 problem.

Page 138



2 MS. KERR: Okay. Great.

3 DR. PERRY: Sonya, I think money

4 matters. I mean, I don't think money necessarily

5 guarantees that you're going to have equal

6 educational opportunity, but certainly -- you

7 know, I've been studying a teacher who,

8 unfortunately, just left the City to go teach in

9 the suburbs who is just a fantastic teacher and,

10 in her class, she had 700 books. A high school

11 teacher. The school didn't buy those books. She

12 bought the books. And they were titles that she

13 knew that would motivate predominately black kids

14 to want to read. And as one of the students in

15 her class was going to the next class, she said,

16 "I looked in the class and the teacher had

17 notebooks and I was wondering if I was going to

18 lose my desire to read since I didn't have books

19 all around."

20 So money/resources matter. Books

21 matter. The presence of computers. Another

22 school where kids were writing their papers on

23 their Sidekicks -- you know, you guys know the

24 little phone with the Sidekicks -- because they

25 didn't have enough computers in the school to sit

Page 139



2 and write their papers.

3 I think the fact that you don't

4 have a library in a school is significant. I

5 think that you could have these things and -- and

6 just several miles away, that you could have

7 Newton North open a $200 million school. That's

8 significant.

9 So I think that -- I think one of

10 the interesting things, some of my friends have

11 said that Obama is running the Department of

12 Education like it's a foundation rather than

13 writing education policy. You know, what if we

14 could get money that would define what is required

15 for a school building to operate, what labs should

16 be like, what the computer equipment should be

17 like? So, what if we can really define what's

18 necessary, the resources that are necessary -- not

19 sufficient -- for us to begin to pursue quality

20 education? And I think that, by and large,

21 everything that's going on in education is a

22 distraction from the fact that we have such gross

23 inequalities within districts and between

24 districts.

25 (Applause.)

Page 140



2 MS. KERR: Okay. Thank you,

3 Dr. Perry.

4 Another concern with respect to

5 students with disabilities and African-American

6 students is the question of whether -- and I'm not

7 sure exactly if we have statistics, per se, on

8 this, but I'm wondering, particularly Umar and

9 Dr. Perry, with respect to African Americans, and

10 also Martin, with respect to students with

11 disabilities, is Pennsylvania, you know, doing a

12 worse job in terms of segregating kids than other

13 states?

14 I know you gave the one statistic,

15 Martin, but I'd like you to elaborate in terms of,

16 overall, are Philadelphia schools, Pennsylvania

17 schools just more segregated in terms of anybody?

18 I mean, are we just parceling out, people have to

19 go here or there because of some characteristic?

20 MR. JOHNSON: Pennsylvania and

21 Texas lead America in terms of educational

22 disparity by virtue of outcome. The black/white

23 test gap in Pennsylvania and Texas was greater at

24 nearly every grade level than any other state in

25 the country. I think that Pennsylvania is doing a

Page 141



2 slightly worse job than other states. But no one

3 is doing a good job. Only one out of every four

4 black boys will get a diploma in America. Only

5 three out of every black baby who's born will

6 every see the inside of a college. That's

7 nationwide. But it does get worse in certain

8 places.

9 In Texas and Pennsylvania, for

10 whatever reason, they tend to lead the country in

11 terms of perpetuating that black/white achievement

12 gap, which mirrors the prison gap as well. Most

13 of the U.S. federal prisons in the northeast

14 corridor of this country are located in the State

15 of Pennsylvania. And, of course, states control

16 education and they control prisons and they spent

17 more money on prisons than education, so it's kind

18 of clear where the focus is.

19 So Pennsylvania is definitely

20 behind or should I say in front of everyone else

21 in terms of racial disparity and achievement gaps.

22 MS. KERR: Martin, did you want to

23 make a comment?

24 MR. ELLIS: I just want to

25 reiterate the previous comment. I don't have the

Page 142



2 actual statistics of race and disability together.

3 But I copy that in that, overall, we're 43rd in

4 the nation, so...

5 MS. KERR: Okay. We've heard this

6 morning, we've heard some great speakers about the

7 essential components to create good schools, and

8 I'd like the panel to address, you know, if we

9 know how to teach kids and we know what's possible

10 in terms of instruction, how much of the

11 difficulties in terms of meeting the needs of

12 students with disabilities, students who are

13 African American or Latino, how much of the

14 difficulties are a function of trying to have sort

15 of one-size-fits-all requirements within a school

16 or even within a system.

17 All charter schools do this or

18 that, you know, people pick particular emphases

19 for charter schools, people have particular

20 curriculum that has to be used district-wide. Is

21 that why we're not making progress? Or if we have

22 the knowledge -- it sounds like we have the

23 knowledge as to why -- or how to educate kids, but

24 we're not getting where we need to be.

25 MR. JOHNSON: It's the personnel.

Page 143



2 It doesn't matter what curriculum you have. It

3 doesn't matter how much money the school district

4 has. There must be intent on the part of the

5 leadership within that district and the teachers

6 that they hire to teach the students that are in

7 front of them.

8 And I think one of the biggest

9 problems in education is that when someone looks

10 to get hired, a teacher or a principal or anyone

11 else, the first question is, "Are you certified?"

12 Which is important. You want them to be

13 competent. But there's never a question as it

14 relates to whether or not you're in this job for

15 the right reasons. And a lot of people are not in

16 the job for the right reasons. A lot of people

17 don't know anything about the children they're

18 teaching, nor do they care to.

19 But I think a bigger issue is

20 union control of district policy. And in

21 education, it's the only industry where a

22 principal, as the manager, really doesn't have

23 control over their teacher base; and if they have

24 a teacher who's not teaching, it's almost

25 difficult to get rid of them, and most of the

Page 144



2 times they'll just be transferred to another

3 school where they're going to do the same thing

4 they did in your school.

5 And, unfortunately, some teachers

6 have so much power that if a principal tries to

7 reprimand them, the principal can end up losing

8 their school, okay, because the teacher is

9 powerful, you know. And so you have to deal with

10 the power of the unions; it's excessive. I think

11 that teachers have to have a right to be

12 represented. I've seen teachers get mistreated,

13 but the power of the union shouldn't be so

14 overwhelming that they can actually stifle

15 educational progress.

16 I read the President Obama article

17 and I hear him say that we got to get rid of

18 teachers who are not good. And I totally agree.

19 But it's going to be difficult to do that because

20 educator unions have so much power, so much

21 political influence, they dominate elections a lot

22 of times. But until the teacher can be held

23 accountable for how well they learn and until we

24 stop blaming the child -- the problem with

25 education is we assume it's the child's fault that

Page 145



2 they're not learning. And that's why special ed

3 is growing, special ed rates are growing as

4 quickly as they are. No one ever says, well,

5 maybe we don't have a good instructor here, maybe

6 they don't have enough experience, maybe they

7 weren't properly trained at the teacher college.

8 Okay? We always assume the child, and we have to

9 start looking at the educator. If they cannot be

10 held accountable for their job, they're not going

11 to teach.

12 DR. PERRY: Well, I'm going to

13 disagree, because I think that I am very happy

14 that we have unions in Boston. I know

15 extraordinary teachers who are doing extraordinary

16 jobs. One person in particular recently,

17 Filipino-American woman, she was so good, that

18 when her principal had her talk to all the

19 principals in Boston about how she got her special

20 ed children to make three-year gains in a year,

21 the principal retired and a new principal came in.

22 Because she had assumed a leadership role in the

23 school because the other teachers would come to

24 her, they fired her. She had to only be in school

25 this fall one day to get tenure.

Page 146



2 So all of us who work at school,

3 all the academics, say, "Where is Faye? Where is

4 she? Where is she?" The principal put out the

5 word on her and she ended up going to Brookline.

6 My point is that schools --

7 another school in Boston, it was a top school

8 until it changed, last year, its principal. The

9 lowest performing school, Orchard Garden, had six

10 principals in seven years and turned over

11 50 percent of their teachers every year.

12 So I do think that the piece of

13 the Chicago Consortium research about the

14 centrality of the leadership is important and

15 whether leadership is able to create a

16 collaborative teaching and learning community.

17 I'm not -- you know, so my

18 experience is that for us to disproportionately --

19 just like it has been wrong to say it's the

20 parents -- you know, we say, "If the corn don't

21 grow, Daddy, don't ask what's wrong with the

22 corn" -- you know, I say it's equally wrong to

23 focus on the most vulnerable part of the education

24 system, and I think that what's happening in the

25 larger discourse all over this country is that, at

Page 147



2 least if other places are like Boston, teachers

3 are dispirited, and the better ones are the most

4 dispirited because the conversation is not how do

5 all of the stakeholders assume responsibility and

6 work collaboratively and be a social capital so

7 that schools -- so that kids can achieve.

8 I think the philanthropic

9 community is deeply implicated in the field

10 because they have put money primarily in the

11 expert community and not community building the

12 capacity of local communities to not only

13 advocate, but build capacity to hold districts and

14 schools accountable.

15 If you look at the history of

16 philanthropy in the early part of the 1990's, it

17 was focused on how many black communities build

18 capacity to not only educate their kids, but to

19 hold the powers-that-be accountable.

20 So I guess, Umar, it's not that I

21 don't know teachers who don't teach -- I know --

22 and the other thing, I think it's teacher

23 capacity, too, because if you look at districts

24 like Berkeley, California and Cambridge,

25 Massachusetts, they say they intend to teach and I

Page 148



2 know they intend to teach. Many of them don't

3 have the capacity to offer -- they don't know how

4 to offer high quality instruction to any kind

5 except a white middle class kid who comes to their

6 classroom.

7 MR. ELLIS: I would just add that

8 one of the problems is the usual community

9 activist problem, and that is vested interests and

10 the way things have always been done. I mean, the

11 cutting edge in special ed is moving so quickly,

12 I'm kind of embarrassed to put up grants that have

13 people labeled by their disability. That's so old

14 school. We shouldn't be thinking in terms of, oh,

15 this person has mental retardation, this person

16 has emotional disturbance. Really, it's what does

17 this student need to learn? And we need to have

18 whatever it takes for that particular student,

19 whatever their mix of abilities or characteristics

20 area. That's the cutting edge. That's what will

21 move us forward rather than sticking to the old --

22 you know, the old things.

23 MS. KERR: Okay. Very good. The

24 minute clock came up and I think we have a few

25 minutes for questions, if anyone has questions.

Page 149



2 I'm going to give the microphone to Jeremy so he

3 can walk around with it.

4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: As far as

5 segregating students, isn't there something to be

6 said about focusing on special needs and having

7 the expertise, the special expertise, concentrated

8 to deal with special needs?

9 MR. ELLIS: Well, that is one of

10 the rationales that you get, people justify

11 segregation, but the correct response to that is,

12 you know, all the research shows that inclusive

13 environments are better for everyone than a

14 segregated setting.

15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, two

16 examples that I have are in my own family where

17 dyslexia runs rampant. And my nephew and my

18 cousin's son, they went to special schools for

19 dyslexia and one graduated from Temple University,

20 computers -- in computers, and the other one

21 graduated from Boston university and he became a

22 line backer for Boston College based on having

23 attended special elementary and high school that

24 focused on dyslexia.

25 MS. KERR: So the question is

Page 150



2 posed in terms of students attending special

3 private or approved schools for students with

4 dyslexia. Umar?

5 MR. JOHNSON: The reason why

6 inclusion is so important is because research

7 shows that a child with a disability will learn

8 better and more efficiently if they're given the

9 opportunity to learn with nondisabled peers.

10 There's a natural motivation that comes out of a

11 child when they're surrounded by other children

12 who can do a little bit better than they can.

13 Another reason why you need

14 inclusion is you have to make sure that the child

15 with the IEP is not falling so far behind that

16 they're beginning to lose too much footing with

17 their original class that they began the school

18 year with.

19 See, when you give a child an IEP,

20 you're reducing the educational expectation.

21 That's a major shift. Okay? If a child is in the

22 fourth grade and they're no longer on the fourth

23 grade curriculum because they have an IEP, okay,

24 then they're no longer expected to keep up. So if

25 they're no longer expected to keep up, how are you

Page 151



2 going to make sure that the gap between them and

3 their peers doesn't get worse than what it started

4 out as when they first went into special ed?

5 And, unfortunately, one of the

6 problems with special ed, because the children are

7 segregated as often as they are, you may have been

8 two grade levels behind when you went into special

9 ed, but by the time you graduate, they're like six

10 grade levels behind. And even though a student

11 with a disability may still get a regular high

12 school diploma, that doesn't take away the fact

13 that when they get to college, they're not going

14 to make it through if they were not properly

15 educated. Sometimes we let them cheat because

16 they do graduate with a diploma, but then when it

17 comes to postsecondary education, they're not able

18 to keep up. And even though we spot them for

19 accommodations on a college level, there's no

20 IEP's in college.

21 DR. PERRY: I think we know that,

22 ideally, the desire is to include students. But

23 we also know, especially students with dyslexia,

24 often, in urban communities, in urban schools,

25 there's not enough expertise in the classroom to

Page 152



2 really teach them how to read. So -- and that's

3 the case in -- you know, I mean, they don't -- you

4 know, and so I think you're not alone. We have

5 some parents who would say, I'd rather my kid go

6 to the Carroll School in Boston, and I know

7 parents who have taken their kids out and kept

8 them there until they merge, like the second or

9 third grade, and then put them back in the

10 Boston -- the point is that inclusion works if you

11 have a teaching force that has a range of

12 capacities that know how to support the

13 achievement and development of all the children.

14 (Applause.)

15 MS. KERR: Okay. Another question

16 over here.

17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'll be

18 quick. I'd like to take advantage of food for

19 thoughts. There could be several people in a room

20 who are involved in school funding reform efforts

21 in Pennsylvania for basic subsidy and for special

22 education. Some progress on both fronts. It is

23 occasionally pointed out by policymakers and

24 others that there is an apparent contradiction or

25 conflict between arguing against segregated

Page 153



2 services and for segregated monies, arguing for

3 inclusion, but also arguing for a special line

4 item for special education services. Could you

5 just speak to that issue?

6 MR. ELLIS: Yes. And I would say

7 wouldn't it be wonderful if all children were

8 considered the same and they got the funding they

9 needed in that school? But that's not where we

10 are now and this is part of the old ways of the

11 old system. Unfortunately, this is the system we

12 have to work with right now. It doesn't mean to

13 say that's the ideal. And, you know, wouldn't it

14 be great if like in ten years' time, we wouldn't

15 think in terms of regular ed and special ed? It's

16 all regular Ed, and it's all regular ed funding.

17 That would be great.

18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you,

19 I just wanted to make a couple comments as

20 somebody who was a teacher in the Philadelphia

21 School District for more years than I care to

22 remember and was a supporter of inclusion. And as

23 I still see it, there's two problems: One is a

24 lack of leadership, and the other does have to do

25 with resources.

Page 154



2 And the lack of leadership, I

3 would note, I saw inclusion come without any

4 serious effort to engage classroom teachers in a

5 discussion about what that meant, give them the

6 tools and the training to do an effective job.

7 And secondly, the resources, I

8 mean, just to give a concrete example, my last

9 year of teaching, I had 33 students, eight of them

10 were special education students, six of whom I

11 felt I could effectively address their needs, but

12 two who I didn't want them out of my classroom,

13 but I wanted their needs addressed, and frankly, I

14 was incapable of doing so by myself without any

15 additional support. And I think that's a story

16 many other teachers can echo.

17 And I would, finally, just want to

18 include that I think training needs to include a

19 really serious anti-racist training that would

20 challenge stereotypes about African American

21 children and other children of color.

22 And one final point in terms of

23 the union question, I just point out that the

24 states that have the lowest student achievement

25 are the states with the weakest unions and vice

Page 155



2 versa.

3 MS. KERR: All right. I think

4 we'll stop with that. And thank you. I think

5 you're still teaching. Thank you very much to all

6 our panelists.

7 MR. JOSEPH: Just a couple of

8 things before we break for a well-deserved lunch.

9 Number one is that if you are leaving now and not

10 staying, we would very much appreciate your

11 filling out the evaluation forms. And in Session

12 I, ironically, the person who presented the study

13 from Chicago that was to be the focus of the

14 entire session -- she's going to think it's

15 Session II -- Penny Sebring is not listed. So if

16 you would please add her to the form and then your

17 evaluations and turn them in when you leave, that

18 would be great.

19 The second thing is that some of

20 our speakers and related groups have books for

21 sale out in the gathering room where you started,

22 where you registered. Two of them -- in fact, one

23 of them was written by the Public Interest Law

24 Center, PILCOP, and a second one, A Quality

25 Education For Every Child; Stories From the

Page 156



2 Lawyers on the Front Lines, is out there. And

3 also Penny Sebring's book that she talked about is

4 there, as well, for purchase.

5 Those people may not be there for

6 the entire lunch period, so if you're really

7 interested in buying the books, I suggest that you

8 go there first. But with that, we will break for

9 a half hour lunch, and thank you.

10 (Whereupon, a luncheon recess was

11 had from 12:48 p.m. to 1:17 p.m.)

12 MR. JOSEPH: I'm ready to turn the

13 program over to another of our staff members.

14 Adam is going to be introducing our speaker from

15 Brown University. And as a relative of many Brown

16 graduates, I'm positive that Dr. Simmons will be

17 spectacular. Adam?

18 MR. CUTLER: Thanks, Don. And

19 thanks, again, to everybody for being here today.

20 I'm Adam Cutler, on staff here at the law center,

21 and I manage our environmental practice. We do

22 have some intersections with the educational

23 world, which is -- and so it's always nice to be

24 here. You can ask those synergistically.

25 But I'm here today to introduce

Page 157



2 Dr. Warren Simmons. He is the director at the

3 Annenberg Institute for School Reform at Brown

4 University. Before joining the institute, he was

5 an executive director of the Philadelphia

6 Education Fund, so many of you may know him from

7 that experience --

8 (Applause.)

9 MR. CUTLER: -- where he supported

10 district-wide and was first to implement

11 standards-based reform. Dr. Simmons earned his

12 Ph.D. in psychology from Cornell, received his BA

13 from Macalester College in St. Paul, Minnesota,

14 and he's on the boards of several national and

15 local organizations, including the Merck

16 Institute, the Campaign for Educational Equity,

17 and College Crusade of Rhode Island.

18 Dr. Simmons recently received the

19 National Governors' Association Distinguished

20 Citizen award for his contribution to education

21 reform nationally and in Rhode Island, and

22 Dr. Simmons is here today to talk about the

23 federal involvement in this issue.

24 With that, we welcome Dr. Warren

25 Simmons.

Page 158



2 (Applause.)

3 MR. SIMMONS: Thank you. Thank

4 you. Are there any questions?

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. SIMMONS: You know, I have

7 like 20 slides that I usually do. I was going to

8 show them. And then I said, no, you've seen

9 enough slides. We're going to have some more of a

10 conversation. So please hold me to that.

11 I was asked to answer the

12 following question: What is Washington doing and

13 does it help or hurt? The answer to it -- to that

14 question is: It could help more and some of what

15 they're doing has the real potential to do some

16 serious damage. All right. Any questions?

17 And let me tell you how I arrived

18 at that answer. I spend time, as a result of

19 being at the Annenberg Institute, in several

20 layers of education reform conversations. Part of

21 what we do at the institute is we support

22 community organizing and engagement, and so we

23 provide technical assistance to community-based

24 organizations, who often ask the question: Is

25 what the superintendent doing going to be any good

Page 159



2 for the kids in my communities and schools? And

3 that really grew out of the work at the Cross City

4 Campaign, where I met many of you over almost 20

5 years ago. Right? So that's one source of the

6 work we do.

7 Another source of the work we do

8 is called district reform and leadership. And in

9 that setting of work, I spend my time with school

10 board leaders, urban superintendents and leaders

11 of teachers' unions, who are formulating reform

12 strategies that are asking the questions: What

13 those guys in Washington are doing, is that really

14 going to help us out, how do we understand that

15 and how do we speak to that.

16 And then another part of how I

17 spend my time, because we are the Annenberg

18 Institute and people think we are a philanthropy

19 foundation, is I talk to people at the Gates

20 Foundations goals, Merck and others, who ask my

21 advice and counsel on what they should be doing,

22 and I also chair the National Superintendents, and

23 so I speak to 11 or 12 superintendents and we meet

24 about twice a year.

25 So, I mean, these different

Page 160



2 layers -- national, state, and district and

3 community conversations -- and there are some

4 significant disconnects going on that pose

5 challenges to our nation's states, which are to

6 get all students to proficiency, however that's

7 defined, and now it's defined primarily by

8 standardized tests in English and mathematics, and

9 in new goals, set largely by the Gates Foundation,

10 people setting (inaudible) to make students

11 college ready. And then the question becomes:

12 Well, what kind of students do we need to get

13 college ready, and who defines that? Right now

14 the people defining it are professors and

15 universities are defining what that means.

16 So at the national level, we have

17 been defining the standards and setting timelines

18 for change, and the result is that the

19 conversation is dominated by leaders and it's very

20 leader centered, and it is very -- not very much

21 community centered. Right?

22 So let's talk about the

23 implications of having a leader-centered dialogue

24 about education reform that's dominated primarily

25 by corporate, philanthropic, political and media

Page 161



2 elites, who can actually convene themselves

3 regularly because they exist and work in groups of

4 50. Right? 50 governors, 50 chief state school

5 officers, the President and assistants and

6 deputies, and then the four or five foundations

7 that are supporting, you know, that agenda.

8 So they have a set of frames, and

9 there's a wonderful word that I learned from a

10 lawyer back in Memphis, who I just met going to

11 New Orleans, this notion of "cartographers," who

12 are the people who are drawing the maps, and how

13 do they represent reality and where are they

14 misrepresenting reality?

15 So the representation of reality

16 is warped, first of all, by the fact that we have

17 a federal governance system in education which

18 differentiates the role of the federal government,

19 state government and local government. Right? So

20 the feds say, well, our role in education is very

21 limited. Right? We only provide about ten

22 percent of the money. The only thing we can

23 dictate is what the standards are, and we can't

24 even do that directly. We have to have national

25 voluntary organizations, and our roles are also

Page 162



2 around assessment. Right?

3 So the levers that the federal

4 government feels are primarily available to them

5 are the standards levers and the assessments

6 levers. And their theory of action has been,

7 since standards-based reform, is if we define the

8 standards and we develop assessments, we can

9 strengthen accountability so at least we can

10 identify the good schools from the bad schools and

11 we can reward the good schools, punish the bad

12 schools, and then that will lead to system change

13 given the responsibilities we have at the federal

14 level.

15 So it's no surprise, then, that

16 the Obama administration's four-point framework

17 emphasizes standards and assessments, emphasizes

18 improving teacher and principal effectiveness, but

19 the leverage they use to do that are sanctions and

20 rewards. Give more money through merit pay to

21 good teachers; fire the bad teachers. Be silent

22 about building professional capacity because

23 that's not the federal government's role, right?

24 So when they say we recognize the importance of

25 teacher/principal equity and effectiveness, they

Page 163



2 focus on the narrow banner of incentives and

3 sanctions and merit pay for that. Capacity

4 building is not their role. That's the state's

5 role and that's the local role.

6 And then, of course, the federal

7 government emphasizes data. Right? If you're

8 going to have an authentic accountability system,

9 you have to have data and you have to use data,

10 and recognize the need to turn around low

11 performance schools, but, again, in their mind,

12 they can't get into the teaching and learning

13 because that's a state and local responsibility.

14 So as far as we can go, we can just push people to

15 at least change the people in the places. Get rid

16 of the principals, fire half the teachers, change

17 the management organization and restart

18 transformation by turnaround. That is a unique

19 product of our government system because other

20 countries that have national systems actually

21 don't respond to this problem in that way. Right?

22 So one of the things we have to

23 ask ourselves about in this country, and I think

24 we're starting to ask ourselves about this not

25 only in education, but also in the nature of the

Page 164



2 economy and border democracy, is our federal

3 government system up to the task of producing

4 results at scale?

5 And I think that, you know,

6 because I've been in this business with many of

7 the people in this room, Theresa Perry, Asa

8 Hilliard and others, for a whole 20 years, I'm

9 basically beginning to -- the answer to that

10 question is actually no, because there isn't a

11 degree of conversation between the national, state

12 and local. The national and state and

13 prescriptions are basically almost uninformed by

14 the conversations that people are having locally.

15 Because I just come from New

16 Orleans, New York, Boston, Chicago, headed to San

17 Diego, Berkeley, and the conversations I have

18 locally aren't about this set of levers entirely.

19 They're about these levers plus. So let me finish

20 these levers: Standards assessments,

21 accountability, citizen sections, data use,

22 alternative staffing and school governance models

23 and plus, fixing low performance schools, and now

24 the Government, to its credit, is putting its

25 money where its mouth is. There are going to be

Page 165



2 billions of dollars, both public and private,

3 flowed to states to race to the top, as someone

4 already described, through the New Innovation Fund

5 and through school improvement grants, which are

6 already out the door in many states to support

7 turning around schools where black students are

8 highly likely to be present, along with Latinos,

9 where most of the schools are in cities and urban

10 areas, although some are in rural and suburban

11 areas, and yet the options don't speak to the

12 broader issues that you saw reflected in the

13 consortiums piece, in the research of Theresa

14 Perry and the studies of high schools and even on

15 the system of questions that Torch presented

16 because, actually, if you look at the turnaround

17 strategy, it's all about change within schools and

18 structural change within schools, silent on the

19 role of the district in supporting this and

20 deepening this, silent on the role of the states

21 and silent on the role of the community. And so

22 there are some stark missing ingredients in this

23 reform approach.

24 First of all, it almost

25 exclusively views reform as a technical

Page 166



2 enterprise, not a political, social and cultural

3 enterprise as well. And so if you view this

4 solely from a technical standpoint, there's no

5 need to engage community, because the expertise

6 doesn't exist in community. You want to share

7 with the community what you, as the expert, know

8 should be done, but, actually, you don't need to

9 spend a lot of time talking to community because

10 you guys don't know what to do. If you did, you

11 would have done it already and talking to you

12 slows me down. Right?

13 The leaders are three-year time

14 setters. Maybe four. And those time setters are

15 determined by the length of their contracts and

16 their political life spans. Right? That's their

17 timeframe, and no matter who they are and no

18 matter when they arrive, they have a sense of

19 urgency that they have to get this work done and

20 produce measurable results in three to four years

21 or less. And that's the mind set of the leaders,

22 and quite frankly, I'm not criticizing them for

23 that mind set. That's a reality for them. The

24 contract exists, the mayor who I'm responding to

25 is only going to be around for four years, I got

Page 167



2 to produce some results, and talking to you people

3 is going to divert me from my task. And what are

4 the most available levers I can apply to produce

5 the results? Which, for the most part, over the

6 last 20 years, by the way, have been successful in

7 getting kids from below basic to basic. Right?

8 And then the tests are recalibrated and a new

9 generation of kids arrive and we find ourselves

10 who are, again, below basic and we get them to

11 basic. And this recalibration, this bouncing back

12 between below basic and basic has been going on

13 for the last two decades, which is why successive

14 superintendents can all declare success. Right?

15 Mostly by the way of the elementary level, silent

16 on the high schools. Right?

17 Why in the world would the

18 consortium focus on the elementary schools? Look

19 at Chicago high schools. Look at the Philadelphia

20 high schools. I can tell you the four high

21 schools that are probably failing in Philadelphia

22 are probably the same four high schools that were

23 failing when I was here 15 years ago. Right? I

24 can tell you that right now without any data or

25 research behind it.

Page 168



2 Nonetheless, there are some new

3 things. It does take a system to reach scale,

4 which, unfortunately, doesn't seem to be a lesson

5 we want to acknowledge in this country. We look

6 at other countries, they have systems of

7 education. When I go to the U.K., which I do go

8 for over eight schools in London and eight schools

9 in New York, the problems I present to them are

10 almost unfathomable. Right? It's a national

11 system. We can set the standards. We can develop

12 the standards. We can get the higher education

13 community to teach these standards. And, in fact,

14 we can have the technology and infrastructure so

15 that, in fact, teachers can see the standards in

16 the curriculum and, in fact, can engage and

17 augment it. And I've actually seen it in schools.

18 Right?

19 So when we say a national

20 curriculum, you know, Americans in a position of

21 assistance think that means somebody up here knows

22 the curriculum that people in Washington have set.

23 No. They have expertise in schools developed in

24 their national curriculum and then augment it

25 because they have the technology and the

Page 169



2 infrastructure to do so. And they convene people

3 across schools and across the country and they

4 visit internationally and they do lots of things

5 to build professional learning communities and

6 trust and they have their problems. But they

7 have, at least, a national infrastructure

8 organized behind what they say they're doing.

9 Right?

10 We seem to be avoiding what the

11 system is that we have to build to get us to the

12 results, and the people on the -- and I don't even

13 know how to describe the political orientations

14 anymore: Neoliberal, neoconservative. But none

15 of us, and I've been here -- except for Torch, we

16 shouldn't be silent on what's the system. This

17 can't simply be done in schools alone, school by

18 school, because you won't get there. That's my

19 conclusion, you won't get there. And when I hear

20 people in school after school, from Boston to New

21 Orleans with charters and education management and

22 organizations say, eventually, and it's usually

23 within two years, now we need to talk to each

24 other to learn from each other, and there's no

25 mechanism at the system level to do that. Right?

Page 170



2 No support for conversations across schools among

3 teacher leadership, principal leadership and even

4 central office leadership for how we learn how to

5 do this work better over time. That's a system

6 conversation that, apparently, we seem to have

7 avoided that other countries perhaps their

8 cultures and values don't avoid.

9 So at least we are now in some

10 forums talking about what's the district or system

11 look like, and I will take credit for the

12 Annenberg Institute for starting that conversation

13 in the Task Force for the Future of Urban Systems.

14 And there are three theories of action about what

15 the system looks like.

16 One theory of action actually was

17 popular with Obama before he became mister

18 portfolio schools, which he actually isn't. He's

19 managed instruction. What he did in Chicago was

20 to do a decentralization. The first work of

21 decentralization is local school counselors, which

22 is community centered, not necessarily school

23 centered. Right? It brings communities into the

24 governance of schools and helps schools plan.

25 When Paul had said, "That's not

Page 171



2 going to get us where we need to get very quickly

3 in the span of my leadership," and so he

4 introduced managed instruction. He established a

5 district-wide curriculum in mathematics and

6 science and became very top down and directed.

7 That's one path. And there are other methods that

8 are connected to that path as well.

9 Another path, professional

10 learning communities. The way you build and

11 design a system is to encourage teacher

12 collaboration with principal leadership and share

13 data within schools and across schools. And my

14 colleagues, Joan Talbert and Willie McLaughlin and

15 Torch and others have had adherence to that sort

16 of professional learning community, and I think

17 the Chicago Consortium research echoes that in

18 terms of what it looks like in the schools, but

19 it's sort of silent about what district supports

20 are necessary for that to spring to life across

21 schools and lead to reform at scale, for some

22 reason.

23 The other model that seems to be

24 highly popular today is the portfolio of schools

25 approach. Now, this model says, well, schools

Page 172



2 should be about the business of knowing how to

3 improve teaching and learning and that's the job

4 of teachers and principals. Right? And the job

5 of the district is actually not to dictate what

6 teaching and learning should be, but only to set

7 the standards, collect the data, hold schools

8 accountable. When they don't do well, close them

9 down and restart them. Right? And if the

10 expertise doesn't reside inside the system, we

11 will resort to providers and partners who do so.

12 Right? That's the portfolio of schools. The

13 district, as an organization, it provides data and

14 standards, run some schools themselves, but when

15 schools falter and fail, you bring in outside,

16 external partners, and support a relationship

17 agreement outside of -- it's an argument that's

18 authentic in that it believes that the districts,

19 as they currently exist, really don't have the

20 capacity to support performance scale, so you

21 narrow their responsibilities and you broaden

22 their partnerships.

23 But, again, for that model to

24 succeed, an infrastructure has to be with it and

25 establish relationships with communities and a

Page 173



2 discussion about what that infrastructure is and

3 looks like, particularly in schools serving

4 disadvantaged students from neighborhoods that

5 have been distressed and ignored and disinvested

6 in, has to be had for any of these models to have

7 traction.

8 Now, I would also say that in most

9 of the districts I've worked in, because of the

10 leadership turnover, all three models are in place

11 to some degree. Right?

12 (Laughter.)

13 DR. SIMMONS: So it's like New

14 York. You know, I've seen New York, over the last

15 few years, who were applying the managed

16 instruction move to professional learning

17 communities and now going to portfolios of

18 schools, at least as its frame. But, in fact, if

19 you look at what the people are doing, there are

20 still people who have the old adherence to

21 coalition in professional learning communities,

22 and that's people asking for a new curriculum.

23 Right?

24 So, you know, depending on the

25 frame of the leaders and the supporters, this work

Page 174



2 can be described as portfolio or could be

3 described as professional learning community. And

4 I would say, quite frankly, if you think about the

5 system that supports differentiated approaches,

6 it's probably the case that you have to have an

7 integration of all three of these approaches to

8 serve the range of needs and resources that exists

9 in communities and schools.

10 But here's what I also see

11 happening at a national level:

12 One is an agreed-upon recognition

13 that these three approaches are, first of all, not

14 mutually exclusive; and second of all, as we've

15 seen recently in New York City, we don't seem to

16 erase achievement gaps, and we don't seem to be

17 getting from basic to proficient. We seem to be

18 successful at getting from below basic to basic

19 and recycling that.

20 The other issue is the approach

21 coming from the national level down. As I said

22 earlier, it doesn't pay much attention to the

23 political, social and cultural dimensions of

24 reform. It also doesn't pay attention, given the

25 states are now in the driver's seat with the money

Page 175



2 and the definition of the strategy of becoming

3 successful, of the enormous lack of capacity that

4 exists at the state level and the historical

5 tensions -- political, social and cultural --

6 between state education agencies and state

7 government and urban school districts and school

8 boards and school committees. Historical issues

9 about race connected with inequitable distribution

10 of funding.

11 So those guys that you've been

12 suing for the last 20 years or 30 years -- how

13 long have you guys been suing those guys? They're

14 now in the driver's seat. They have your money.

15 Well, your state doesn't have it, but some other

16 states have it. And they're in the drivers's

17 seats, and they're able to dictate from the frames

18 that they use it. How you are going to use your

19 resources? And their frames lack this

20 community-centered, political, social, cultural

21 analysis.

22 And so, if you look at the recent

23 ETS report on the black/white achievement gap and

24 when the progress stopped, oddly, it stopped at

25 the rise of the corporate elite's view of

Page 176



2 education reform with the nation at risk, that

3 when this country was investing poorly,

4 inadequately and corruptly in model cities and

5 investing in narrowing achievement gaps and

6 poverty, we seem to have made more progress in

7 narrowing the achievement gap as measured by the

8 National Assessment of Educational Progress than

9 we have made since 1990 and the present time.

10 And, oh, by the way, another announcement shows

11 that while the results were stagnant between 1990

12 and 2000, they have widened with the inception of

13 "No Child Left Behind." Right? So when you ratch

14 it up and now we're moving away from standards

15 with essentially accountability and assessment

16 driven reform, the results are even worse. Right?

17 So the recognition of this in

18 Washington -- but their interpretation of the

19 problem is somewhat different from the DTS point

20 of view, from the consortium's point of view, from

21 Theresa and Asa Hilliard's point of view. In lots

22 of communities, we have to have a reform agenda

23 that also builds on the social capital and

24 intellectual capital in schools. It has to be

25 built in the neighborhoods as well.

Page 177



2 And so, in fact, we not only need

3 a school reform strategy that thinks about system

4 building within schools and within districts, we

5 have to have a broader education and community

6 development strategy mounted in cities that

7 connects that cross networks of schools and

8 reaches into neighborhoods and faith-based

9 organizations and community-developed

10 organizations to provide the supports inside and

11 outside the school that catapulted me, by the way,

12 who grew up in East Harlem and attended Brandeis

13 High School, which is one of the worst schools in

14 New York City for a long time. Right?

15 And I got into college, in large

16 part, due to the East Harlem College and Career

17 Counseling Program that had arts and recreation

18 programs and college counseling programs, much

19 like those run by the Philadelphia Education Fund

20 and other college access programs around the

21 country, that allowed me to overcome, change my

22 own view of the world, more successfully work with

23 my schools, and now, the latest label that I

24 learned from Bob Balfrins, who's been doing some

25 analysis of the resistance strategies that student

Page 178



2 use.

3 One of the obvious resistance

4 strategies that students use going through the

5 school system that increasingly ignores them and

6 underdevelops them is you drop out, anybody with

7 any sense doesn't subject themselves to that.

8 Anybody with a lot of aggressiveness, you know,

9 drops out and, I think, has a lot of help with

10 that.

11 I had a guidance counselor who

12 told me very early on that I should drop out, that

13 I was not college material, and I should just go

14 to work. That was in my junior year of high

15 school. Right? But I wasn't one of those people.

16 I'm now one of the people that Bob Balfrins, who

17 runs Town Development, said he has a whole set of

18 pain-in-the-ass indicators. Right?

19 (Laughter.)

20 MR. SIMMONS: That there are a

21 group of kids in schools, in that wonderful way,

22 who don't resist by dropping out, they resist by

23 becoming pains in the ass. Right? They do enough

24 to stay in school, but they resist openly by

25 staying. They get suspended sometimes. They

Page 179



2 don't show up in class. They cut the first period

3 for the teacher who's drunk, but they go to the

4 second period and get an A for the teacher who

5 engages them.

6 So they have a portfolio of

7 responses and a mix of grades, which I had. I had

8 A's and 95's and I had zeros. You know, and so

9 people couldn't make -- they didn't know what to

10 make of me. I was saved by the fact that I had a

11 high SAT score and I graduated in '69, when

12 America's small elite colleges said to get rid of

13 the riots, we got to take some of these kids out

14 of the ghetto and put them in schools so that's

15 what gentrified my whole generation, we arrived in

16 colleges and become the people who we are today.

17 So there was a community-centered

18 analysis at some point in our nation's history.

19 Politics and successor republican Presidents

20 changed that frame and the current corporate

21 philanthropy has a narrow lens. It comes from

22 their perspectives in their worlds as

23 cartographers and how they see the world. I don't

24 think we can change that perspective.

25 The challenge before us is how do

Page 180



2 we, as a community, develop our own agenda and

3 speak powerfully that perspective? Because what

4 I've also seen, that I hold all of us who are in

5 this room collectively accountable for, is an

6 amazing degree to which all of this work we do

7 over 10 to 20 years of time in our careers, we are

8 prone to set aside when a new leader arrives in

9 town. It amazes me. Right? A new leader arrives

10 in town, and it doesn't even matter who it is or

11 the quality of their strategy, and we allow, from

12 the mayor to the City council, school board and

13 teacher union leadership, by the way, and grass

14 roots organizations demonstrate here's what we're

15 going to do now and you line up with this, despite

16 all the research behind the work that you've done.

17 And I've seen this in community after community

18 after community. It damages and undermines

19 sustainability and it leaves us susceptible to

20 voiding the system building infrastructure that

21 takes a longer period of time than the school --

22 individual school change can occur. Right? This

23 building of the system around those schools is a

24 larger endeavor than building the infrastructure

25 in those individual schools, even though that's a

Page 181



2 hard and difficult slug. Right?

3 So ladies and gentlemen, my

4 suggestion to you and the conversation I'd like to

5 have with you, because I need to close this,

6 because I promised to be briefer than I

7 intended -- I've got like 20 more slides --

8 (Laughter.)

9 MR. CUTLER: You have at least 15

10 more minutes.

11 MR. SIMMONS: Good. I'm going to

12 tell you my thinking about what the infrastructure

13 looks like. We have to build a community-centered

14 platform for reform that interacts with the

15 leader-centered platform that currently exists,

16 and responds to and expands the current narrow set

17 of frames that may be necessary, but are

18 incomplete and, to some extent, they're misguided,

19 typically, in certain communities. Right?

20 So I want to tell you what that

21 platform should look like. I think it actually

22 should be built around, with some modifications

23 and discussions, the five essential components of

24 the consortium's work. But addressing the

25 question of what kind -- what's the role of the

Page 182



2 system? And I don't want to use the term

3 "district," because once I say the word

4 "district," certain people in this room and in the

5 philanthropic community only conjure up the

6 dinosaur that never worked and served anybody

7 well. Right?

8 But it's interesting that the

9 colleges and the charter community are now talking

10 systems. They're not talking about the

11 traditional; they're trying to reimagine a new set

12 of supports that charter schools have to have so

13 that they can produce results at scale and not

14 replicate the normal distribution of some of the

15 schools, a lot of the mediocre ones and some

16 horrible ones, because they're just catching up

17 with them, and they're going to be in the same

18 boat as many of you have been.

19 So if you start with that

20 framework of essential supports, you might augment

21 it. You might even highlight the community ties

22 more and the need for extended learning

23 opportunities and the role of faith-based,

24 community-based organizations. But if you start

25 with that, then you have to ask yourself, what's

Page 183



2 the system that gets that to scale? And

3 particularly pays attention to putting that in

4 place in schools and communities that have been

5 distressed because they've been neglected

6 historically and we failed them over time and

7 every solution we seem to present to those schools

8 is to save students individually and teachers

9 individually and close them down or ship them out

10 to magnet programs or to the suburbs. You know,

11 that's the historical solution we have provided.

12 So if we look at the other

13 countries that we so-called compete against, they

14 seem to pay lots of attention to adequate and

15 equitable school funding, which we sort of leave

16 off. They've got national standards and

17 curriculum, but they focus them on higher

18 learning, inquiry, motivation and technology.

19 They have national teaching policies supporting

20 strong teacher education improvement and funding

21 for teachers, raising salaries, giving teachers

22 time to collaborate. This comes from the work of

23 Linda Darling-Hammond in her latest book, the Flat

24 Earth, or something like that.

25 So they support ongoing teacher

Page 184



2 learning, not just within schools, but across

3 schools. They pursue consistent long term reforms

4 over decades, ladies and gentlemen, not this

5 three-year, hmm, we've reached our plateau, let's

6 throw out what we're doing and try something

7 different, and they focus on broader community

8 supports. Right?

9 Each of these countries that we

10 compare ourselves to -- Finland, Singapore, the

11 U.K., Japan -- they have a social safety net that

12 puts what we call a safety net to shame. Right?

13 They have health care. They have people --

14 parents, when they're pregnant, they get six

15 months off. They have vacations. They have a

16 social safety net that supports and reenforces the

17 learning and achievement goals that we have in

18 schools.

19 So I think it's our job --

20 because, nationally, we seem to be pointing to the

21 results that those countries are achieving, but

22 not the strategies that they're using. It's our

23 job, as communities, to not only point to the

24 results, but to the strategies; and ask ourselves:

25 What would those strategies look like in our

Page 185



2 national government system if they were

3 operationalized? We can't operationalize them

4 nationally because we have a federal system. But

5 could we operationalize them at a state level?

6 Could we operationalize them at a regional level?

7 Or if it's possible, could we even operationalize

8 those sets of strategies at a city level? Again,

9 avoid the word "district" -- right -- because that

10 would just get some of you to resist the idea. At

11 a city level.

12 So, here's my recommendation of

13 what it's going to take to operationalize that

14 strategy that we've seen in other countries that's

15 working at a city level:

16 You have to have a mechanism at

17 schools that calls for constructive partnership,

18 planning, design and communications. If you're

19 going to expect education people to work with

20 housing people, transportation, health care people

21 and city agencies in some cities, there has to be

22 a mechanism for them to come together to examine

23 data and come up with constructive strategies; and

24 most of the cities I work with, do not have that

25 mechanism. They understand the need for it. They

Page 186



2 are struggling to build it. San Francisco is.

3 Providence is.

4 Actually, when I worked with Arne

5 Duncan, Chicago, I was part of something called

6 the Mid Size, where I was asked by the mayor --

7 Mayor Daley, for God's sakes -- and local

8 fundraisers to bring together the school

9 department and the housing department and

10 community and political leaders to redesign

11 supports for schools in the mid south of Chicago

12 in a neighborhood called Bronzeville, so that you

13 have the schools necessary to support economic

14 development and mixed income housing strategy.

15 And the City had the patience to do that for about

16 four months.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MR. SIMMONS: Gates came to town

19 with $50 million and offered Chicago Renaissance

20 2010, which is about integrating small schools,

21 the least likely charters disconnected from that

22 large strategy.

23 And, in fact, the response to the

24 Mid Size effort, although the school system did

25 bump us out of it, was that other communities that

Page 187



2 saw that model said, "I want that on the west

3 side" and "I want that on the north side." And

4 the Mayor's response was, "Oh, God, everybody now

5 wants to do this. I can't do this."

6 And the business community -- and

7 Gates came down with $50 million. And again, a

8 good example of leadership and performance. The

9 community says we're going to do. Gates is a

10 leader. He comes to town with $50 million and the

11 mayor, the school superintendent, the director of

12 housing, business leaders, all basically said,

13 "Okay, we're going to do this now." Right? Just

14 boom. Just that fast.

15 So, in essence, how can we, who

16 represent communities, not respond if you have a

17 stronger cross-sector partnership with Gates, with

18 Merck, with Annenberg, with any funding that comes

19 to town that says, "This is what we want to do"?

20 You have a set of constituencies and a plan in

21 place to say, "We might do some on that, but

22 here's what we've been doing and here are the

23 results that we've obtained."

24 Secondly, in addition to the

25 cross-sector partnerships you have to -- as

Page 188



2 Deborah Meier said -- you have to have a broader

3 set of outcomes. And maybe feds, given a limited

4 role, can be consistent and focus solely on

5 mathematics and English. That doesn't mean you

6 have to do it in your community.

7 One of the things that I've said

8 when we've brought standards down to the

9 development in Philadelphia, was when you brought

10 it to the local level, people said, no, we don't

11 need standards just in English and mathematics.

12 We need it in arts, in social studies and world

13 history and world languages. It was a whole range

14 and in keeping with a discussion about standards,

15 when it was local as opposed to when it was

16 conducted and formulated at the national level,

17 and so you need that mechanism to respond to a

18 national vision and a state vision of what we're

19 after to one that says, hey, what we're after

20 locally, we're going to put our resources behind

21 locally.

22 Final -- a few things I'm going to

23 say and then I'm going to stop because, I mean, I

24 can go on for another 30 minutes, is this work has

25 to be community and family centered and not just

Page 189



2 individually oriented. The bias of the national

3 perspective in corporate philanthropy is the

4 problem in educating the individual student and

5 working with the individual teacher and individual

6 principal. They don't see the cross communities

7 of learning, either at the adult level or the

8 cross communities of learning at the student

9 level.

10 And, in fact, I would say I am a

11 product of that strategy and I am a demonstration

12 of its success and its failure. Because what they

13 did was they succeeded in taking me out of that

14 community and educating me. I'm now happy to say

15 I have enough money to retire successfully, we're

16 building a house. What they didn't understand was

17 what they were behind and so people like me and

18 Jeffrey are out of Harlem. Right?

19 And they had no strategy for

20 dealing with the greater concentration of poverty

21 and dysfunction when they took people like me and

22 Theresa and Jeffrey to Bowdoin, to Macalester -- I

23 don't know where you went -- and left behind a

24 community that was weakened as a result.

25 To Jeff's credit, he went back and

Page 190



2 spent the next 20 years of his career, unlike me,

3 building a base. Most of us didn't. And most of

4 us, when we had children, took them to the suburbs

5 to go to school. So we need a strategy that

6 recognizes, as the consortiums we're in today,

7 that this is not fixing simply individuals and

8 individual teachers and individual schools, but

9 there are some communities and neighborhoods that

10 over 20 years have been -- they've been

11 disinvested in. And to get from basic to

12 proficient is going to require an enormous

13 investment of capital, of fiscal resources and

14 social and cultural resources, and that's the

15 conversation that hasn't been had in New Orleans

16 or Chicago or New York because it's focused on the

17 individual school, individual teacher, individual

18 student. And you are responsible, ladies and

19 gentlemen, for the people who live in these places

20 for 20 or 30 years of your lives, for shifting

21 that debate.

22 I think it calls for more action

23 research organizations. I think it calls for more

24 of an investment in community organizing

25 engagement, not the media communications stuff

Page 191



2 that we see happening where everybody goes to see

3 a movie and you get the money behind it. But

4 genuine dialogues in communities with teachers and

5 their union leadership and district leadership and

6 political leadership to develop a

7 community-centered plan to respond to the enormous

8 power that we are currently faced with by

9 corporate philanthropy and now by your own tax

10 dollars, ladies and gentlemen, are being leveraged

11 by corporate philanthropy to impose, I'd say, an

12 agenda that may have some of the necessary

13 ingredients for success, but really is absent the

14 focus on community, on culture, on race and

15 ethnicity and a border set of developing

16 investments that are necessary.

17 If we don't respond, ladies and

18 gentlemen, I can tell you what's going to happen

19 in the next two or three years. If Obama gets

20 reelected, we're going to look at the results of

21 all this money and the Republicans are going to

22 say, "You did what? You spent how much money?

23 You invested how much?" Because that was part of

24 the Annenberg Challenge, right? Deborah Meier.

25 We all created and were involved,

Page 192



2 many of us, in the Annenberg Challenge. The

3 public frame from the right was, you know, we let

4 a guy who was a Republican get swayed by these

5 radical liberals to pursue this little small

6 schools agenda and it didn't produce any results.

7 We are never going to let that happen again.

8 Now, fortunately, it didn't matter

9 if they didn't do that because we also got the

10 Gates Foundation to invest in small schools in

11 many of the same places with many of the same

12 people. And then another four years passed and

13 the people were incensed and they said, "They

14 didn't get that we were never going to let that

15 happen again."

16 So I now am having conversations

17 in small rooms, and I don't know how I keep

18 getting invited, but where these corporate

19 billionaires keep talking to each other and they

20 agree on who they're going to invest in and who

21 they're not going to invest in, and they have

22 their own data generation machine that produces

23 the results that they want to see, and unless we

24 develop infrastructures and mechanisms to respond

25 to that at the local level, we are going to be

Page 193



2 blamed for the lack of results that this next

3 round of reform is eventually going to produce and

4 we will be subject to and vulnerable to the next

5 set of leaders who come with the next set of

6 prescriptions funded by and framed by those

7 cartographers, billions of dollars at their

8 disposal, and control of the media. And I don't

9 want to live through that again.

10 Thank you very much.

11 (Applause.)

12 MR. CUTLER: Thank you,

13 Dr. Simmons. That was terrific. Do we have time

14 for Q and A, Don? A couple of questions? Five

15 minutes? We have five minutes.

16 MR. CHURCHILL: Prescription is

17 wonderful. It also sounded to me like it's really

18 like saying it's going to take a long time to do

19 these things -- the money, the supports, et

20 cetera -- that would make these changes. It seems

21 to me what's driving public support to the extent

22 that there is some of the alternative corporate

23 agenda that you describe is the desire to have

24 something done faster; that, how are we -- you

25 know, we need success. Our kids are there now.

Page 194



2 And what are we going to do that gets us a change

3 now? How can you deal with that in a way that

4 will -- will not tell people I have to wait

5 forever, but also do what needs to be done?

6 MR. SIMMONS: You know,

7 fortunately, the public has demonstrated that it's

8 not as stupid as we thought it was. Right? You

9 know, because the whole rationale for the fancy

10 reapproach was urgency. "These communities, these

11 schools, these kids have been devastated. We

12 don't have time to talk to anybody. We know what

13 to do. Get out of the way. Let us do it."

14 Right?

15 And what happened? What happened

16 when we went to the ballot box? People understand

17 the need for change, but they also know when

18 change is -- I think we'll just all use the label

19 authentic. Right? And if it's not going to be

20 authentic, then your urgency loses credibility.

21 Right?

22 And it's also the case that people

23 have not been through local communities, these

24 rounds of reform that all of us have been a part

25 of. They've been part of small schools. They've

Page 195



2 been part of professional learning communities.

3 They've had standards delivered to them, as we did

4 in Philadelphia in big, thick books on the front

5 desk the day before school started. And they've

6 had money poured down them in some cases, and they

7 haven't seen change.

8 I think many people in communities

9 understand this is a longer term effort than we

10 give them credit for understanding. And they're

11 willing -- they're more willing than we give them

12 credit for, to be engaged for the long term, if we

13 build a mechanisms to hear them and have them

14 collaborate for a long term. If there aren't any

15 mechanisms for that, then they will ride the

16 three-year cycles of change and they will, you

17 know, deal with the compromise, knowing that that

18 three-year cycle, we'll help some of these kids at

19 stake, but not all. Right?

20 That's their desperate charter

21 school phenomenon. So allowing the kind of system

22 that we build to educate all kids fairly and

23 equitably, but it's inherently inequitable, but

24 that presentation shows you desperation in the

25 absence of a mechanism that guarantees that, over

Page 196



2 time, we build a system that will work. So build

3 mechanisms of community organizing and engagement

4 and people will give you more time.

5 I will try to measure the length

6 of my answers going forward.

7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Are there

8 any cities that are beginning to do this more?

9 DR. SIMMONS: People always ask

10 that question. The answer is: For a period of

11 time.

12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah.

13 DR. SIMMONS: And they get swept

14 aside by the new round of urgency, the new cycle

15 of -- by the way, remember goals 2000? Somebody

16 raise your hand. We were going to first in the

17 world by when?

18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: 2000.

19 DR. SIMMONS: 2000. Did anybody

20 lose their heads when we weren't first in the

21 world?

22 (Laughter.)

23 DR. SIMMONS: Well, most people

24 who did were people in the schools. Students and

25 some teachers and some principals lost their

Page 197



2 heads. Did anybody at the top lose their heads?

3 So this is unequal accountability that we have

4 going. Accountability seems to be going down, but

5 it doesn't go up. Right?

6 So another thing that the

7 communities have to argue for is: How do you

8 build reciprocal accountability systems? Right?

9 "I will do this in exchange for these kind of

10 scores from you; and then if we fail, here are the

11 consequences I face and here are the consequences

12 that you're going to face." So reciprocal

13 accountability systems as articulated by the Cross

14 City Campaign for Urban School Reform.

15 So have cities done this? I can

16 point to Chicago, for a brief period of time. I

17 can point to Rhode Island, Urban Education Task

18 Force. I can point to Mobile, Alabama, The Public

19 Education Fund Network has had many organizations

20 that convene these conversations -- The

21 Philadelphia Education Fund -- but have we ever

22 sustained it? Children achieving wasn't simply

23 David's ten points. The flesh and bones of those

24 ten points were articulated by work groups

25 organized by the community, as I recall. Right?

Page 198



2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: This is

3 true.

4 DR. SIMMONS: So then we slam the

5 leader and we pushed aside that mechanism and

6 allowed another leader to come in and we say, no,

7 seriously, he's going to say something very

8 different.

9 So the answer to the question,

10 "Has a community ever done this before," well, how

11 come those guys don't answer that question, by the

12 way? I mean, that doesn't seem to stop them. Has

13 anybody done it before? It makes sense to me.

14 Let's do it. I mean, I could give more evidence

15 to support --

16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I just

17 wanted a model; that's all.

18 DR. SIMMONS: There's more

19 evidence for the work that we do than I see behind

20 the hundreds and millions and billions of dollars

21 that are driving those forced school turning

22 options.

23 So the other problem that we face,

24 ladies and gentlemen, is, you know, if I was a

25 multibillionaire, which I'm not, but I had like

Page 199



2 $50, $60 million and I sat in this room and

3 surreptitiously I said, I'm going to listen to

4 these people and then based on what they do, I'll

5 give them $100 million, if I get a clear consensus

6 of what they want to do. I sit in the back room,

7 I've got an open mind, but I don't have a clear

8 consensus on what you want to do. But I hear you

9 critiquing each other more than I do you reaching

10 a consensus about what to do.

11 When I'm in those rooms with those

12 guys with the millions of dollars, they are

13 certain about what to do and they've echoed and

14 reinforced that. We seem to nitpick with each

15 other more than they do. So I'm going to take my

16 $100 million and put it behind the guys who are

17 certain about what to do, not this room full of

18 nitpickers and, you know, qualifiers and caveat

19 builders.

20 Okay. Did I say something wrong?

21 MR. JOSEPH: We've got one problem

22 here.

23 DR. SIMMONS: Yeah, what's that?

24 MR. JOSEPH: That we didn't

25 schedule you for another hour.

Page 200



2 DR. SIMMONS: But you need to

3 schedule yourselves, ladies and gentlemen. What I

4 will say is that all of us are going around the

5 country -- or some of us -- because I was just in

6 this conversation in New Orleans; I'm in this

7 conversation in Rhode Island; I'm in this

8 conversation in New York; I'm in this conversation

9 in Boston; I'm in this conversation in Chicago.

10 And you are around other conversations. These are

11 the kinds of things people are talking about at

12 the local level. We have to create mechanisms to

13 strengthen, define, articulate, make them more

14 powerful, and then push it back up.

15 MR. JOSEPH: With that, I prove

16 that the Brown connection was exactly right, and

17 he deserves a wonderful round of applause.

18 (Applause.)

19 MR. JOSEPH: So this conference

20 keeps getting better and better. It's just

21 fabulous. Thank you, Warren.

22 Jenny Clarke is now going to

23 introduce the next panel. And while they're

24 coming up, I suggest that we all, in place, stand

25 up and take a stretch and do something because

Page 201



2 it's hot, and it's a long day.

3 - - -

4 (Whereupon, there was a pause in

5 the proceeding.)

6 - - -

7 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. So we're going

8 to get started again. I am going to manipulate

9 the schedule a little bit, so don't rely on the

10 times that are in your schedule, but we will

11 have -- everybody will have pretty much the same

12 amount of time. I may shave five minutes off of

13 two or three of the remaining sessions.

14 So with that, I'm turning the

15 podium over to our chief executive of PILCOP,

16 Jenny Clarke, who I might tell you is, with

17 Michael, the brains behind all of this. As you

18 can see, I try to make the trains run on time and

19 I'm a little off. But Jenny, good luck.

20 MS. CLARKE: Thank you.

21 Before we start this session, I

22 just want to have an advertisement for the very

23 last session, because we're really going to

24 continue the conversation that Dr. Simmons

25 encouraged us to have about building a platform

Page 202



2 for continued conversation in this city.

3 But for this session, we're going

4 the pick up on another topic that Dr. Simmons

5 touched on, and that is, it's really the same

6 conversation that we've been having all day, but

7 from a different focus, and that is: Why do kids

8 leave school?

9 We have, today, four experts in

10 the subject, and I'm not going to go into great

11 detail because their bios are on Page 357, but

12 just briefly, we have Kay Kyungsun Yu, who is the

13 chairperson of the Philadelphia Human Relations

14 Commission and has been hearing -- or has been

15 chairing the panels around the City over the last

16 year about school violence in South Philadelphia

17 high schools and around the City. Kay is also

18 the -- on the Task Force on Racial and Cultural

19 Harmony, which was formed by the school district.

20 We are also very fortunate to have

21 David Lapp, who's the staff attorney from the

22 Educational Law Center, our great partners in

23 Philadelphia on educational law, and David has

24 focused his work on school climate and alternative

25 schools.

Page 203



2 We have -- we're very fortunate to

3 have Courtney Collins Shapiro, who is currently

4 the deputy innovation officer at Mastery Charter

5 School. She's been, I think, quite busy recently

6 raking in money.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MS. CLARKE: But she also was

9 formerly at the School District of Philadelphia,

10 and she managed the Multiple Pathways to

11 Graduation Division.

12 And finally, we are exceptionally

13 honored today to have a student, Brandon Williams,

14 and Brandon is going to talk to us about this

15 subject as well.

16 So, with no further adieu, I want

17 to just start by pointing you to two studies in

18 your materials which talk about the dropout rates

19 in the School District of Philadelphia and

20 nationally, and I'm not going to go through the

21 numbers. The numbers are terrible. But the

22 numbers really show you that we have to worry

23 about why kids leave school, as well as what goes

24 on in the school. And I recognized it's the same

25 conversation, but the number that really will jump

Page 204



2 out at you most is the number in the gentrified

3 SHOT report, the 50-state report, on black boys,

4 and that tells you that dropout -- that the number

5 of boys who stay in school in the City of

6 Philadelphia is 28 percent. The rest drop out.

7 So those are horrifying numbers, and this topic is

8 one that I hope you pay close attention to.

9 So what we're going to do today is

10 we're going to have a little bit of a Q & A, a

11 little bit of presentation, and I hope a great

12 dialogue.

13 So we'll start by asking Courtney

14 to talk to us about why kids leave. Courtney has

15 been in the position of gathering data on that

16 subject, and so she's going to talk to us about

17 what the data shows us about why kids leave

18 school.

19 MS. SHAPIRO: Hi, there. Good

20 afternoon. It's a little warm in here, right?

21 And Brandon could probably speak

22 to this much better than I, so he's going to get a

23 chance to chime in.

24 Multiple Pathways at the school

25 district is basically a place where the district

Page 205



2 recognizes that young people are dropping out at

3 an alarming rate and trying to figure out how to

4 bring them back to school. So they created a

5 Multiple Pathways to Graduation that's creating

6 different kinds of schools to allow these kids a

7 way to return.

8 So just some background in terms

9 of what -- I'm looking at a PowerPoint here, so I

10 will try not to drag on with that, but just some

11 quick snapshots.

12 So 2600 kids choose to return to

13 school every year from dropout in Philadelphia.

14 It's something called the re-engagement Center.

15 This is where young people can come of their own

16 volition and say, "I'm out of school. I want to

17 come back." We opened it about two years ago.

18 And since we opened it, on their own, with no

19 marketing, no outreach whatsoever, 2600 young

20 people between the ages of 15 and 22 have chosen

21 to walk through the doors to say, "I need to come

22 back to school." This isn't by any stretch of the

23 imagination all of the young people that are out

24 of school, but it's saying something that without

25 any outreach, these young people are choosing to

Page 206



2 come back.

3 Somebody has the clicker.

4 Okay. So I'm going to go through

5 and talk about them. When young people came out,

6 we actually do an intake with them and they say,

7 "Why am I leaving? Why did I leave in the first

8 place? And so there's about 15 different options,

9 and some of them have some subheadings, but the

10 number one reason young people are saying they

11 drop out is family issues. And then there's a

12 subheader of, well, what does that mean? So I put

13 some of those up, the major ones.

14 32 percent of the young people

15 that are dropping out are saying the number one

16 reason I dropped out of school is something is

17 wrong at home.

18 14 percent of young people say, I

19 didn't like my assigned school. Now, that's a

20 whole bunch of things, but most commonly, if we

21 look at our young people that are coming back,

22 more than 50 percent of the young people that have

23 returned to us are coming from the same ten high

24 schools. Something's happening in those high

25 schools. There's sort of a national report out

Page 207



2 there that talks about dropout factors. These

3 schools are not conducive places for these young

4 people to learn, and whether it's a safety issue

5 or they just don't feel like the school's

6 providing them what they need, there's a big

7 problem with some of our schools that's driving

8 young people out.

9 Third one is pregnant and

10 parenting. So greater than 13 percent of young

11 people reported that was the number one reason for

12 dropping out, but fully 37 percent of the young

13 people who come back to us say they either have a

14 child or are expecting one. So there's a lot

15 going on with our teen parents, particularly our

16 teen moms in the City, and that really needs to be

17 addressed.

18 Behavioral issues at school is the

19 fourth sort of topic on this list. And when we

20 talk about that, some folks at this hamlet will

21 talk about alternative schools and whatnot. So

22 kids who are having discipline problems in school

23 are getting in trouble, a lot of young people are

24 choosing to drop out rather than enroll in a

25 disciplinary school, and we really need to look at

Page 208



2 what are the root causes of why these young people

3 are getting into trouble. It's not always this

4 broad brush of, oh, it's just bad kids. A lot of

5 times kids are being provoked or there's a long

6 history of something else going on in the

7 neighborhood. But the behavioral issues are

8 certainly one of them.

9 And then boredom. This gets a lot

10 more play nationally. I think the Gates folks are

11 coming out saying, "Ah, these kids are all bored.

12 We just need to challenge them more. This is a

13 reason why kids will drop out in Philly, but we've

14 also been provided with some data that says it's

15 maybe not that they're bored; it's that when they

16 say they're not being challenged, it's like you're

17 not even being addressed in the classroom. Folks

18 just sort of give up on some of our kids who are

19 not -- who aren't learning or who are struggling

20 to learn, so we put them off in the corner in some

21 of our mainstream schools. And so boredom is:

22 Why should I be here? No one cares that I'm

23 here."

24 So a couple of other quick

25 snapshots and then we'll stop to break them up.

Page 209



2 Things we didn't even know about

3 that kids were dropping out. This is not an, all

4 of a sudden, we have no idea why they're dropping

5 out. There are some folks here from the

6 Philadelphia Education Fund and they did some

7 really great research with Johns Hopkins that says

8 we can tell you in sixth grade what's happening

9 with these young people. And I think what the

10 gist of this slide is, it's easy: It's

11 attendance, behavior and forced performance.

12 If a young person in sixth grade

13 is attending school less than 80 percent of the

14 time; that means they're missing 36 days of

15 school; if they are -- have a behavior challenge,

16 so like they're getting like not a perfect mark in

17 behavior on their report card, or they're failing

18 English or math by the end of sixth grade, fewer

19 than 20 percent of those kids will have graduated

20 high school.

21 So you can basically pinpoint

22 backwards with students in sixth grade and say

23 unless I provide a very serious intervention now,

24 they're not going to make it. 80 percent of them

25 aren't going to make it. So it's not like we

Page 210



2 don't know who these kids are.

3 If you flip to the next slide,

4 this continues to go on. We have a really good --

5 pretty good measure of who's going to drop out.

6 In eight grade, it's failing reading or math

7 again, and it's coming to school less than

8 80 percent of the time. Again, when we did the

9 data, it's actually 77 percent of those kids will

10 drop out.

11 And then flip to ninth grade. And

12 the interesting part about this ninth grade factor

13 is: These kids didn't have any indicators before

14 they got to ninth grade. So of the ninth graders,

15 they showed up in ninth grade, they were attending

16 school, they were passing their classes, they were

17 doing okay. If, in ninth grade, they start

18 becoming truant, they don't pass English or math,

19 "I'm not here all the time, so I'm going to drop

20 out."

21 So all I'm trying to relay is the

22 framework for is we know kind of where these kids

23 are, we know who they are, we can predict what's

24 going to happen, and really we have to talk about

25 conversations about how to prevent that and how do

Page 211



2 we provide the right interventions for young

3 people at the school level to do that. And I'm

4 thinking that -- and we're not going to get to

5 this one yet. We'll do that piece after Brandon's

6 chapter.

7 MR. WILLIAMS: How are y'all doing

8 today?

9 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Good.

10 MR. WILLIAMS: My name is Brandon

11 Williams. I currently attend the GED center on

12 Derider. I'm a member of Union Local 915. Due to

13 my past number of past school years, I could not

14 attend school when I wanted to, so I left for a

15 couple of months.

16 The school I first -- the school I

17 first went to was Edison. During the 2006-2007

18 school year, the school was not the best. We had

19 fighting and drugs, guns, cops using brute force

20 on students. I got into a fight with one of the

21 students there over a miscommunication that spewed

22 into a fight. The problem with this was that the

23 witnesses who saw the fight said that I had

24 something to do with it and they framed me and I

25 was suspended for five days. I never went back to

Page 212



2 Edison.

3 After that, I -- after that

4 suspension -- it really wasn't the only reason why

5 I was suspended -- why I decided to leave. The

6 school wasn't working for me. I couldn't get the

7 education I needed due to all the distractions,

8 such as: Students throwing objects in class and

9 assaulting teachers. There was also numerous

10 altercations in the classroom, and I constantly

11 had my guard up because I thought I might become a

12 target.

13 Next, I went to Overbrook High

14 School in West Philly. There was a security door

15 in the front part of the building where I had to

16 take all my belongings through a scanner and walk

17 through the metal detector. This was frustrating

18 to me because I felt like a prisoner without any

19 rights.

20 In addition to the security, if

21 you was late, you had to stand in the late room

22 for 15 or 30 minutes, which meant you would miss

23 your first period class. In this late room, you

24 had to stand in a square about the size of a high

25 school desk. This had been taped to the ground

Page 213



2 and your bags had to be between your legs. If you

3 talked or stepped outside the square, you had to

4 stay in the late room longer.

5 At this school, their policies

6 were never communicated to the students. For

7 example, one day, when I went to school, they took

8 my phone, saying that there was no electronics

9 allowed in the building. I didn't know anything

10 about this policy. I asked if I could get my

11 phone back, nicely, but they assaulted me and

12 shoved me away.

13 This made me angry at all the

14 security guards at the school and changed my whole

15 view of school, period. I felt as though I didn't

16 belong in school. I felt like a celled person. I

17 felt as though I was different from all of the

18 other kids and I had to take all of my stuff, put

19 it through a scanner and walk through a metal

20 detector. I felt trapped. School isn't supposed

21 to feel like that. I started to become

22 disrespectful towards my teachers, our principals

23 and I'd get sick of class and leave the lunch

24 room.

25 Next school I went to was a

Page 214



2 charter school downtown called Freire. By the

3 time I got there, I didn't like school, period.

4 You could get your education there and everything

5 like that, there was no fighting going on or

6 nothing like that, and I knew that the work they

7 gave, I could do it, but the only thing was, they

8 tested me too much. Half of the tests I passed

9 and the other half I failed.

10 Something clicked in my head one

11 day and said, "Brandon, you need to leave school."

12 I didn't like school because of the uniforms,

13 lining up in the class waiting to leave, standing

14 in line for lunch, I felt too old for that. I

15 finally decided to take a couple months off of

16 school because I could not deal with the same

17 boredom and lack of interest and sit in

18 overcrowded classrooms. School was too much like

19 jail, so the only option I had was the streets.

20 But all this was small compared to

21 what I really wanted in life. I wanted to make

22 enough money to invest in a small business and

23 turn it into a lucrative establishment, but I

24 couldn't get that without school.

25 I decided to get back into school,

Page 215



2 but this time, it had to be different. I wanted a

3 school that was going to fit my needs so I could

4 graduate quickly because by now, I was one to

5 two years behind. So I went to an alternative

6 school down in Kensington called El Centro de

7 Estudiantes.

8 I spent one year there and that

9 one year, it was cool, for the most part. I was

10 cool with everybody there. I was doing projects,

11 papers, just like a regular school, but it was

12 slightly different. The problem with this school

13 was that they said I was supposed to get my

14 diploma in a year, but it really was a setup

15 because it turned out to be a lot more. It was

16 like they set me up for failure.

17 As soon as we got into the

18 exhibitions, the teachers threw a lot of extra

19 work in my face that I knew nothing about. It was

20 the first year of school, so everything was

21 disorganized. Nobody knew where they were in

22 terms of credits. At the end of the year, I went

23 to see how many credits I had, but I didn't have

24 sufficient credits. Actually, I had none at all.

25 So I left El Centro.

Page 216



2 I decided to go to the GED

3 program, due to a couple friends and counselors,

4 and when I went there, I liked it. I liked my GED

5 program. There was no bars, no boundaries. I

6 ain't got to worry about security guards, nothing

7 like that. I finally could do what I needed to do

8 and had more freedom.

9 (Applause.)

10 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Brandon.

11 David, do you have, also, some

12 statistics that you want to talk about with

13 respect to why kids leave school?

14 MR. LAPP: I think, actually,

15 Brandon might be as qualified to give those

16 statistics as I am, but what the Youth Action for

17 Change is doing some work right now on studying

18 the school district of Philadelphia's zero

19 tolerance policy, and they've collected a lot of

20 data.

21 And just a couple of things that

22 stand out that I'll mention --

23 (Cell phone interruption.)

24 MR. LAPP: You can tell them I'll

25 call back. I'm sorry.

Page 217



2 -- is that the amount of money

3 that we're spending is sort of telling as far as

4 how we're dealing with school discipline. I was

5 struck by Courtney's statistics there that, you

6 know, a lot of the issues that students have are

7 family related, but I was actually struck more by

8 the huge percentage of those that aren't family

9 related, that are, if you add them all up, they're

10 all school related. And those are the things that

11 we actually have the power to control, and so

12 there's a lot of influence that schools can have

13 on whether or not students stay in school.

14 YAC has shown that the district is

15 spending, you know, roughly ten times as much

16 money on school security type of things -- school

17 police officers, school security officers, metal

18 detectors, cameras -- than they are on preventive

19 type of measures -- school psychiatrists, school

20 psychologists, counselors, social workers. And

21 that's one of the things that sort of shows us

22 where our priorities are and, yet, there's not any

23 data that shows that those tactics actually work.

24 So maybe I'll save for a later

25 discussion, some evidence of some tactics that do

Page 218



2 work. But that's one of the things that's fairly

3 striking is that the amount of money that we're

4 spending on our schools on punishment and reacting

5 to school safety incidents is a lot higher than

6 the amount of money that we're spending to prevent

7 those things.

8 MS. CLARK: Let's just spend

9 another minute on what you referred to a minute

10 ago, which is the zero tolerance policy. Is there

11 a policy, and what is it, and what is its effect

12 in schools and particularly on the dropout rate?

13 I know that you began to address that in your

14 previous answer, but let's just talk a little bit

15 more about the zero tolerance policies. Is it

16 needed? What do we do about the horrific violence

17 that we've seen around the City?

18 MR. LAPP: There's a couple of

19 different zero tolerance policies. One of them,

20 at the State level, is a statute that we refer to

21 as Act 26 that mandates schools to expel students

22 for a year if they bring a weapon. That law also

23 broadly defines weapons to guns, of course,

24 knives, of course, nunchucks made it into the

25 statute, and then it also has this catch-all

Page 219



2 provision that says, "any other implement capable

3 of inflicting serious bodily injury."

4 Of course, if I could find my pen

5 I could show you that, of course, would fit that

6 definition of something capable of inflicting

7 serious bodily injury. And, indeed, we do see

8 countless intakes of kids that are getting

9 suspended, transferred into charter schools and

10 expelled for things that we traditionally wouldn't

11 think of as weapons: Eyebrow trimmers, scissors

12 are a big one, and then we do often see pens and

13 pencils when they are used for things.

14 However, we often see things that

15 aren't used for things that -- that aren't used in

16 sort of violent ways that kids are getting

17 expelled for or suspended for. Even -- and the

18 other part of that law that is important to note

19 is that there's no intent requirement there. So,

20 in other words, it's possession alone, and you

21 don't even have to intend to possess it,

22 theoretically.

23 In fact, just this morning I was

24 at a hearing for a student who walked through a

25 metal detector at Kensington Capa and the metal

Page 220



2 detector went off, and she was surprised and she

3 opened her bag and, lo and behold, there was a box

4 cutter. And she had no idea it was there, but she

5 did know that her boyfriend uses a box cutter for

6 work and put it in there and that he -- that it

7 must have come from him. Sure enough, talked to

8 him and it -- she was at his house the night

9 before and the only thing that could explain it is

10 that it fell in.

11 This sounds like an incredibly

12 unlikely story. Right? Sure, it just fell in

13 there. But when you -- and, indeed, when we go to

14 the hearing, the hearing officer isn't hearing

15 that, but when you dig a little deeper -- and

16 that's what zero tolerance is, right? Zero

17 tolerance is: We don't ask questions. We don't

18 ask about intent. We just say this happened and

19 this is our automatic response, which that

20 automatic response is that she gets to

21 disciplinary school while she waits for a month or

22 so for her expulsion hearing, at which time she is

23 mandatorily -- the law says they have to be there

24 until 12th grade.

25 There is a provisional law that

Page 221



2 says that the superintendent can make exceptions

3 on a case-by-case basis, which that part gets

4 often times forgotten by schools, that they

5 actually do have the authority to make an

6 exception.

7 In any case, you know, we don't

8 know what's going to happen with this hearing this

9 morning. She had testimony from lots of people

10 that were -- you know, she, herself, said, "It's

11 not like I would have gone though the metal

12 detector if I had known I had this in my bag.

13 Obviously, I didn't bring it for that reason.

14 There was no one I had any conflicts with.

15 She's had some -- she had a

16 compelling story of significant behavior problems

17 in the past and an incredible turnaround since

18 she's been working. She was a student at

19 gentrified again, and Kensington Capa gentrified

20 High School.

21 Anyway, nobody knows what the

22 hearing officer is going to do, but it's more

23 likely that it's going to be zero tolerance, part

24 two, which is the district's zero tolerance

25 policy. Now, the district has probably had a zero

Page 222



2 tolerance policy for a long, long time. Every

3 single administrator comes in and announces a new

4 zero tolerance policy. So the newest zero

5 tolerance policy went into effect in 2008. Dr.

6 Ackerman announced -- sent a letter to all

7 students saying that anything violent, anything

8 with weapons, anything with drugs, zero tolerance,

9 you're going to get expelled for a year.

10 And so that's in effect and,

11 indeed, when we go to these hearings, the hearing

12 officers themselves say, you know, this happened

13 -- they won't say it officially, that they don't

14 have any discretion because there's supposed to be

15 discretion, but that's how they seem to act.

16 So -- and schools themselves -- one of the things

17 that -- I'm sorry, I'm going on too long here, but

18 one of the things that the hearing officers say

19 is, "Well, the school recommended this." And it's

20 sort of a really terrible argument because the

21 schools have no choice. That's what the policy

22 is. The policy is the schools have to -- the

23 principal has to recommend the transfer to a

24 disciplinary school, so there is no discretion.

25 That, we know for sure, and the hearing officers

Page 223



2 themselves seem to act like there's no discretion.

3 I'm not sure if I got to the

4 answer to your question, but, yes, I think the

5 answer is that there is zero tolerance in the

6 School District of Philadelphia.

7 MS. CLARKE: I'd like to hear

8 Kay's perspective on zero tolerance. Do we need

9 it? We do have terrible instances of violence in

10 the City, in schools, and what should we be doing?

11 MS. KYUNGSUN YU: Thanks, Jenny.

12 Before I get to talking about some

13 reflections on zero tolerance, let me just give a

14 backdrop as to how I've become involved in the

15 issue, and it really is not based on any

16 background in education. I spent 17 years in

17 private litigation as an attorney, and the work

18 that I've done as chair of the Philadelphia

19 Commission on Human Relations -- as you

20 mentioned -- we are conducting a series of 11

21 public hearings that are taking place throughout

22 this year. We just had our eighth hearing on

23 Tuesday.

24 And the first thing I would like

25 to do is invite Brandon to share his story with us

Page 224



2 because that's really the intent of these public

3 hearings, is to invite concerned residents,

4 students, anybody involved in our public school

5 system to come share their stories, both about

6 acknowledging the problems that exist, and looking

7 towards being part of the solution as well.

8 So to be specific, the Commission

9 on Human Relations enforces the antidiscrimination

10 laws in the City. So the Fair Practices Ordinance

11 says that employers and in housing, in public

12 accommodations where our schools are a part of

13 that, that you cannot discriminate on the basis of

14 race, ethnicity, religion disability, sexual

15 orientation, gender identity -- and I'm not sure

16 I'm missing some of these, but that is what we are

17 concerned about. So our hearings really are based

18 upon the sort of intergroup relationships and how

19 we can improve on those.

20 The other way that I've been

21 really involved with sort of a community

22 engagement is through the Task Force on Racial and

23 Cultural Harmony. And that is a task force that

24 was constituted by the superintendent and the

25 School Reform Commission, and we presented our

Page 225



2 final report a week-and-a-half ago or so. But I

3 just wanted to let everybody know that those

4 materials are available on-line. So if you go to

5 www.PhilaSD.org/harmony -- not to be confused with

6 eHarmony, but they're -- it's the final report

7 that's a compilation of a number of dialogs that

8 occurred throughout the school district.

9 And so one of the topics -- so

10 everything that, really, I'm going to share are

11 really reflections that have come through both

12 putting the reports together, out of conversations

13 that, really, concerned engaged community members

14 had with schools in that context with site visits

15 and also through things that I've heard through

16 the public hearings.

17 So with that very long

18 introduction as to how I have been involved in

19 what I will be speaking to, with respect to the

20 zero tolerance policy, what are the issues that

21 has emerged through discussion about that and in

22 some other positive ways?

23 Again, I really commend Brandon

24 for being here and sharing his story because it's

25 very, very important that students have the

Page 226



2 opportunity to be engaged and that the -- that

3 they have a voice. And that has come through over

4 and over again, that we really need to engage

5 them. I'm really proud of you for coming here

6 and, you know, talking about your personal

7 experience because that is so much of why we're

8 all here.

9 So that is something that's coming

10 through and part of the zero tolerance policy, as

11 David was just describing, is that there is -- you

12 know, once there is a determination that some

13 event occurred, there really is no discretion,

14 there's no further examination of the situation.

15 And some of the things that have been discussed

16 are that there can be peer mediation programs or

17 victim witness conferencing that can be employed

18 and is sometimes and in some schools, but there

19 clearly are schools where this is not taking place

20 and that we really are losing out on an

21 opportunity to really engage the students in a

22 discussion among themselves to really sort of

23 break through the barriers and isolation that

24 comes out through various mechanisms and that if

25 we bring together students and everybody else as

Page 227



2 part of the community and have this discussion,

3 that's part of the solution.

4 MS. CLARK: Do either of the rest

5 of you have any thoughts on this?

6 MS. SHAPIRO: Like 60 seconds or

7 less, right?

8 One of the things, too, about zero

9 tolerance, it's like we've created almost an easy

10 out for schools to say it's black and white, do

11 this, then this and not have to think about it.

12 And so we're finding these schools that will trash

13 these kids's critical thinking and we're not

14 allowing adults critical thinking.

15 When a five-year-old brings

16 fireworks in a backpack, really, the five-year-old

17 is not trying to set the school on fire, but

18 there's perhaps something wrong at home and we're

19 not getting an adult's account in how to

20 investigate what's actually going on in the life

21 of this child, what's leading to the behavior and

22 we really need to consider how our policies set

23 those types of behaviors up with adults.

24 But the other piece of

25 zero-tolerance in the school district is that

Page 228



2 zero-tolerance means you're out there going to a

3 disciplinary school. We will talk about this

4 later. It's sort of, then, what is the condition

5 of alternative ed? If a young person really does

6 need to be in a different setting, something's not

7 working for them there and the zero-tolerance

8 provision triggered some sort of action, are we

9 providing them with a truly positive alternative?

10 Because there may be a way -- and

11 again, does it really work for a student like

12 Brandon, who's been in five or six different

13 school settings? Something's not meeting his

14 needs. There's clearly a school out there, and

15 maybe the GED program that he's in now is it, but

16 there's something that's a match for what he

17 needs, and he can probably articulate that better

18 than anybody else. But we clearly aren't

19 providing that as a school district. We're

20 turning back to the law and saying, let's put him

21 here, let's do this, let's give this option, and

22 nothing's working.

23 So we really need to be able to

24 talk more about alternatives or how that's

25 working, but if we're going to zero-tolerance, we

Page 229



2 need to think about the other end. What are we

3 providing these young people with, and is it

4 really rehabilitative and is it really for the

5 educational experience for those kids?

6 MS. CLARKE: Let's just go there.

7 Let's talk about what happens to kids when they

8 leave school. And there's a couple different

9 pathways that, as I understand it, are

10 administered by completely different parts of the

11 school district.

12 And so, Courtney, why don't you

13 first talk about the re-engagement centers.

14 MS. SHAPIRO: Okay. So there are

15 two re-engagement centers in the City of

16 Philadelphia, and nothing I mentioned is sort of a

17 panacea. It's like they're options, right? So

18 re-engagement centers, there's one at Broad Street

19 and there's now one in northeast Philadelphia.

20 These are intended to be those sort of drop-in

21 centers where young people can come in and come

22 back to school. As I mentioned, there are 2600

23 young people every year coming through the doors,

24 but the numbers you see here are who's actually

25 leaving school.

Page 230



2 So every year, in grades seven

3 through twelve, in Philadelphia, 8,000 young

4 people are choosing to drop out of school. Take a

5 couple months off, just disappear. Another 5,000

6 students are missing school more than half the

7 time. So they're missing 90 or more days of

8 school, so all of our data shows they will

9 eventually drop out. They're simply dabbling in

10 school at the moment. So you're talking about, at

11 any given time, 13,000 students in every year that

12 adds up to students who are out on the street, not

13 in school, not employed. This is a big problem

14 for Philadelphia. So even if I say 2600 are

15 choosing to come back every year, that's the tip

16 of iceberg in terms of who's out there.

17 And the kids we're not

18 addressing -- because those are the kids who are

19 actually out -- what about all those kids who are

20 in schools, like Brandon, when he was at Edison or

21 Overbrook where that's not the right fit? And

22 what is the compliment of options for him to chose

23 another school? It's really very difficult.

24 I put on here grade ten. So grade

25 ten is the average school year in which young

Page 231



2 people drop out, but the average age in which they

3 drop out is almost 18. So people need to

4 understand this, once kids hit high school -- sort

5 of K to eight, this is very hard and fuzzy, but

6 you just keep moving on. You can't read, but you

7 keep moving on, keep moving on.

8 You get to high school and now

9 it's about credits. Have to pass Algebra I. Have

10 to pass World History. You start failing classes

11 and you start not moving ahead. So you end up

12 like Brandon where you're in school a whole year

13 and, at the end of the year, you don't realize it,

14 but you have no credits. So you functionally just

15 wasted a year and you made no progress.

16 That's really disheartening to

17 young people when, all of a sudden, they wake up,

18 they're 18 and they're still in the ninth grade.

19 So that's the huge issue, the kids who are the

20 vast majority of the young people, almost 18,

21 effectively still a ninth grader. At that point,

22 it's like, I'm never going to get out of high

23 school.

24 Racial disparity. So, again,

25 who's leaving? There is absolutely a problem.

Page 232



2 It's disproportionately in favor of

3 African-American and Latino young people dropping

4 out and, in particular, males. But I will say

5 that this is everyone's problem. No more than

6 71 percent of any ethnic group graduates high

7 school in Philadelphia. So it's not like all the

8 white kids are graduating, all the Asian kids are

9 graduating, but no one's graduating. But the

10 African-American males and the Latino-American

11 males are really struggling. This is a huge

12 city-wide epidemic.

13 And then it says "special

14 populations." A lot of times we talk to those

15 unfamiliar with the issue of dropout and they'll

16 say, "Oh, it's just the bad kids. It's those kids

17 who get in trouble or they're in jail or it's the

18 pregnant moms." So we really looked at the data

19 in Philly over a six-year span and said, well, is

20 that the majority of the kids who drop out?

21 And if you flip to the next slide,

22 what this effectively tells you is, yes, those

23 kids are dropping out at a higher rate, but they

24 are not the majority of the kids dropping out.

25 About a third of the kids come from these four

Page 233



2 groups, so, basically, DHS involved -- abuse or

3 neglect, foster care kids, juvenile justice kids,

4 teen moms -- a third of the kids. The other

5 two-thirds don't have any of these factors. But

6 if we go back to the early warning, by noticing

7 one of these situations, I've got a really big red

8 flag that I think this young person's not going to

9 finish high school. So it gives us some data to

10 be able to say I've really got to start working

11 with that population.

12 Particularly what really brings

13 people out is the juvenile justice people came out

14 and said that once a young person is involved in

15 the juvenile justice system, only ten percent will

16 get a diploma. You don't have to start to wonder,

17 then, what happens in terms of how to create a

18 pipeline out of education and into prison, and

19 that's really not what we want to be doing.

20 So this -- we try to use this data

21 to say all of the kids are not the kids that you

22 think they are that are dropping out of school.

23 Two-thirds of them are just regular kids.

24 Something else is going on in school or at home.

25 And I'll just save this for a

Page 234



2 later piece. But that was just sort of a frame of

3 who's leaving and, David, you're going to talk

4 about alternative ed.

5 MR. LAPP: One of the things

6 that's interesting is that, in Philadelphia, we

7 use the phrase "alternative schools," and we --

8 that refers to a broad range of things in

9 Philadelphia. We talked about Multiple Pathways,

10 the re-engagement center, night schools. We've

11 got a host of different options for students in

12 Philadelphia.

13 In the rest of Pennsylvania, when

14 you talk about alternative schools, you're talking

15 about alternative education for disruptive youth.

16 You're talking about disciplinary schools. And,

17 in fact, those, of course, are like a lot in

18 Philadelphia, too, we have thousands of students

19 in those schools, and so we -- in your materials,

20 there's a report that we did at the Educational

21 Law Center very recently where we studied what's

22 been going on with those schools, particularly

23 looked at the legal framework for what's happening

24 in the schools. And I'll talk a little bit about

25 some of the recommendations that we made, but

Page 235



2 that's where we see a lot of kids who are

3 suspended going.

4 And one thing I wanted to make

5 sure I mentioned before we get there is: The use

6 of sort of punitive disciplinary practices is on

7 the rise. It's not just in Pennsylvania. It's

8 nationwide. It's a trend. It's rather stunning.

9 In the last ten years, in Pennsylvania, the number

10 of out-of-school suspensions has almost tripled

11 from what it was in 2000. Same thing is true with

12 arrests, school-based arrests; in other words,

13 police arresting kids for things that happened in

14 school, we're seeing that more than double in the

15 last decade. And so we're seeing a shift in

16 how -- and, you know, this is not every school, of

17 course. There's many schools that do fantastic

18 work at dealing with these things, but there --

19 and it is a cultural shift in how we deal with

20 this.

21 An organization in DC called The

22 Advancement Project published a report called,

23 "Test, Punish and Push Out," and it drew a line --

24 a connection between what we see in zero-tolerance

25 disciplinary practices to what we see in high

Page 236



2 stakes testing and how those both come from sort

3 of the same root of cracking down on kids. And so

4 we're seeing this as we're seeing kids being --

5 we're targeting kids for these problems, we're

6 seeing schools getting -- resorting to this and,

7 in fact, there's some reverse incentives in both

8 those high stakes polices to push kids out that

9 are difficult, to push kids out that are getting

10 low test scores, that are making it difficult for

11 you, as a teacher, to teach other kids. I've

12 taught for nine years. I know very well how

13 difficult that can be. But where the problem with

14 that lies is that suspension hasn't -- doesn't

15 help.

16 There's a study done by a guy,

17 Russ Skiba and Dan Losen -- he's from -- Dan Losen

18 is from UCLA and Russ Skiba's from Miami

19 University -- studying, you know, the impact of

20 suspensions, and there's a couple of striking

21 things. The first thing, of course, speaking of

22 disproportionalities is that even -- that black

23 males are punished disproportionately more severe

24 for the same offenses. Even -- even -- in other

25 words, this is not explained as proportionality,

Page 237



2 it's not explained entirely by just behavior. The

3 disproportionality is greater than -- the

4 punishment disproportionality is greater than the

5 behavioral disproportionality.

6 Another one of the things that

7 they found is that suspension -- out-of-school

8 suspensions -- I know this is going to shock

9 you -- but they don't improve behavior, and that a

10 huge proportion of those suspensions that we see

11 the increase for are for things like truancy,

12 things like dress code, things like lateness to

13 school, and then, also, repeated disruptions from

14 class, things that are all definitely disruptive

15 to a class, but of course, it would be difficult

16 to imagine how out-of-school suspension would help

17 kids who already are truants. Seems like kind of

18 a perverse type of a thing to do to a kid who's

19 not coming to school to tell them that they can't

20 come to school. But -- so, we're seeing this

21 impact happening greater on students of color, but

22 we're seeing an increase for students all around.

23 But one other thing I just wanted

24 to point out is that, of course, when students are

25 dropping out, as you mentioned, they're more

Page 238



2 likely to enter into the criminal justice system.

3 So that phrase Courtney earlier mentioned is

4 talking about the tie between policies that have a

5 tendency to push kids out and those that are in

6 prison, they call it like school's prison and, of

7 course, they're already there.

8 MS. CLARKE: David, before I ask

9 you to talk a little more about alternative

10 schools, let's hear from Courtney about the

11 Multiple Pathways schools, because I think what

12 you'll be struck by is, even though they're both

13 for kids who've been out of school for a reason,

14 the difference in the quality and concept.

15 MS. SHAPIRO: Brandon had

16 something to add before we do that.

17 MR. WILLIAMS: I just wanted to

18 give a little bit of feedback on what Dave said

19 about the alternative schools and everything like

20 that. He was actually right about the school

21 district bringing out different rules and stuff

22 like that and getting kicked out of school for

23 little stupid stuff like that because I got to

24 admit, like, that stuff -- most of that stuff, it

25 happened to me. The schools I've been to, I was,

Page 239



2 like, pushed out of school for, like, not

3 returning stuff, seriously. I just wanted to make

4 that...

5 MS. SHAPIRO: All right. So we're

6 going to chat briefly, and that's the last slide

7 that's up there, which is sort of the -- we think

8 of it as alternative ed, but alternative ed means

9 discipline in the State, so we changed the name to

10 Multiple Pathways, like they did in New York, so

11 we could try to get people to understand it's a

12 pathway back.

13 So what exists in Philly now? So

14 you see the box on the right, it says

15 "nontraditional." So this is where you create

16 nontraditional schools for young people who need a

17 different kind of option. So there's things

18 called accelerated schools. Those are schools

19 that are supposed to speed up the pace with which

20 you attend school. It could be year-long school,

21 it could be half-day programs for pregnant parents

22 and teens. You have a lot of lag between those

23 two different things. Proficiency-based learning

24 is some of the students who learn better using

25 technology. And so we're really trying to meet

Page 240



2 students where they are.

3 Gateway to College is a program

4 the City has which is basically a dual enrollment

5 program, meaning if a young person tested at the

6 eighth grade level when they come to us, that they

7 can go immediately to community college and the

8 classes that they take at community college will

9 count as their high school credits, so they'll be

10 earning their high school diploma and their

11 associate's degree at the same time, which is an

12 awesome program.

13 The challenge in Philly is that 85

14 percent of the kids who come back from dropout

15 can't pass the test because they're reading below

16 an eighth grade level. The average reading level

17 and math level for dropouts in Philly, according

18 to us, between the ages of 15 to 22, is seventh

19 grade. So we have lots below that and a few above

20 that, but it is a huge literacy gap in the City.

21 GED preparation. Here, we're

22 talking about what we're involved in over at the

23 E3 center and in the GED preparation course to

24 pass the GED as an option for young people.

25 Our educational options is what

Page 241



2 people think of as night school. So for different

3 people's frame of reference, a lot of young people

4 when they say "financial need," they have to go to

5 work when they're 15 and 16 years old to help

6 support their families. Poverty in the City is

7 growing, it's real, and so they're going to work

8 during the day and go to school at night.

9 And then we have programs inside

10 the schools where we're trying to prevent the tide

11 of dropout. You have some folks in the room from

12 Philadelphia Education Fund and they just got a

13 big grant from the federal government through the

14 Innovation Fund to pilot what's known as the NOW

15 Project, which is really an early intervention

16 program in the middle and high schools to try to

17 target the kids who are at risk, keep them

18 engaged, keep them in school, and get them to

19 their diploma.

20 There's also traditional pathways.

21 In some cases, for young people, it's an advocacy

22 issue. So kids come to us and say, "I went back

23 to Overbrook. They won't let me in." Sort of

24 like dirty secrets (inaudible.) The dirty secrets

25 of the district. So, you know, there are a lot of

Page 242



2 high school folks who just don't want to deal with

3 the 18-year-old who's coming back. They pull out

4 the transcript and they see ninth grade and

5 they're like, oh, we don't want to deal with that.

6 So they pull it up and they say, "Oh, you can get

7 in disciplinary school." So it's the broad paint

8 brush, you just must be bad. So they tell them,

9 "No, you know, we withdrew you before. You've

10 been out of school ten days. You can't come here

11 anymore. You got to go somewhere else."

12 The reality is, free public

13 education in Pennsylvania means, no, until they're

14 21 years old, they can't lock the door. They have

15 an obligation to educate them. But a lot of our

16 young people will not come to the door, or their

17 families, for that matter, armed with the

18 knowledge that they can advocate for themselves

19 and say, "No, if this is my neighborhood school, I

20 really do get to go here and you need to find

21 classes for me and it's your job to educate me."

22 Now, the flip side to that is, do

23 they really want to be there as opposed to the

24 "box A, let's create nontraditional alternatives"?

25 But we have to do a better job of educating our

Page 243



2 school personnel that it's not okay to mess around

3 with kids's lives and tell them that they come to

4 school and that the young people and their

5 families need to know their rights in terms of

6 what the district is legally obligated to provide

7 them in terms of an education.

8 And then the big piece I'll say

9 here, which there's actually a huge gap in Center

10 City. I mentioned the literacy gap. The biggest

11 issue you have is, ultimately, kids have to pass

12 the classes. When we get to high stakes testing

13 in the State that matters for graduation we have

14 the content courses. If I don't pass the algebra

15 course at the State level, I don't graduate from

16 high school. You have kids who cannot do that

17 work, and there's no way to teach ninth grade work

18 to a fifth grade reader. I'd love to say there

19 is, but there's just no silver bullet for that.

20 So we have to create these bridges

21 for answers and the City just doesn't -- nor wants

22 to figure out who's paying for that. Right? The

23 City says we'll pay for literacy for adults. The

24 school district says, "We do school; we don't do

25 the literacy." You know, everybody's punting on

Page 244



2 that. And there's no money. When you get a ninth

3 grader who's, you know, reading at a fifth grade

4 level, there's no resources anywhere you can just

5 tap into and say, this is what I should be doing

6 with this young person. But you can't just put a

7 young person who can't read in their grade

8 appropriate curriculum and expect they're going to

9 succeed. And so this is a place where we're

10 trying to figure out how to build those options,

11 but there just aren't a ton of them right now.

12 It's something that they're working on. So that's

13 sort of the other landscape beyond the sort of

14 alternative discipline.

15 And so I'll say, probably a

16 quarter of the kids who come into these options

17 are kids who drop out of discipline schools, so we

18 take them back in the other way when they have

19 kind of had it on that side.

20 MS. CLARKE: So we've got all

21 these great programs for re-engaging kids. How

22 about the alternative schools? Talk to us about

23 the program, David.

24 MR. LAPP: Well, last week I got a

25 call from a parent and -- from a school in Western

Page 245



2 Pennsylvania -- a school district in Western

3 Pennsylvania. And she said, you know, "Help me.

4 My son was sent to this alternative school and

5 they're not doing anything." "So tell me, what

6 are they doing?" She said, "Well, his first day

7 there, it was the security guard that stayed with

8 them for the entire day, and it was all kids from

9 grades 7 to 12 in one classroom, and it was taught

10 by the security guard. And the first day, they

11 watched Ferris Bueller's Day Off."

12 (Laughter and groans.)

13 MR. LAPP: "And the second day,

14 they watched Hot Tub Time Machine."

15 (Groans.)

16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, God.

17 MR. LAPP: Now, this is a pretty

18 extreme example, but a real example and,

19 unfortunately, all too common of what we see in a

20 lot of these disciplinary schools.

21 There are some -- apparently,

22 there are some fantastic ones that are in the

23 State of Pennsylvania. And to its credit,

24 Philadelphia actually has -- it's had a history of

25 some really terrible ones and it has made some

Page 246



2 improvements over the last number of years, we've

3 some better programs in some of those schools.

4 But one of the problems is just

5 that, that the legal structure allows for that

6 wide range of quality in what we see in those

7 schools. So some of the things that we're seeing

8 problems with in -- with alternative schools --

9 and we say "alternative schools," I'm talking

10 about disciplinary schools. One of those issues,

11 they're called "Alternative Education For

12 Disruptive Youth Programs," which implies that

13 they are programs within a school and a lot of

14 schools tend to think that, well, they're not

15 actually schools, even though they might have

16 their own physical structure and different staff

17 and they have a traditional school building, they

18 still consider them to be programs, which means a

19 couple things legally that they think that they

20 don't have to do, such as reports that they think

21 they don't have to do.

22 And the legal structure also

23 says -- so a couple problems I see with them.

24 First of all, it's overbroad who can be sent to

25 one. There's no question that there are students

Page 247



2 that probably should not be in the regular school

3 environment, that need a different kind of

4 environment for them. But we see too often -- in

5 fact, the majority of kids in these schools are

6 not those kids. The majority of the kids are kids

7 that are sent there for repeated low level

8 offenses. The law allows kids to be sent there

9 for truancy. It allows them to be sent there for

10 repeated offenses. It allows them to be sent

11 there for anything that could be a suspendable

12 offense under a Schools Code of Conduct, which

13 could be basically almost anything.

14 Now, the guidance from PBE says it

15 has to be to a marked degree, the behavior has to

16 be to a marked degree, it has to be to a last

17 resort. But one of the problems with the law is

18 that there's no accountability for enforcing that.

19 To be placed in alternative school, you have to

20 have a hearing. And at that hearing, they have to

21 determine that you are a disruptive student, that

22 you fit one of those criteria. If you lose that

23 hearing, you're done. There's no right to appeal

24 that hearing. You can't go to the Courts and say,

25 I wasn't a disruptive student, or this hearing is

Page 248



2 wrong, or they didn't have any evidence, or that

3 all the evidence was based on hearsay or whatever

4 you might do on a traditional appeal, because the

5 Courts have told us that there is no right to

6 appeal the transfer to a disciplinary school

7 because it's still a school, they say. You're

8 still being provided a school. So one of the

9 problems is how kids are being sent there.

10 Another one of the problems, of

11 course, that we've already mentioned is there's

12 huge disproportionalities in who's being sent to

13 these schools. Too many African-American kids are

14 being sent there. Too many boys are being sent

15 there. Too many kids with disabilities are being

16 sent there.

17 And one of the things that's

18 interesting is that, you know, in the -- I'm not

19 an expert in the IEDA. I am shuddering to talk

20 with Sonya Kerr in a minute. But there is, in the

21 law, that before a kid can be disciplined for

22 something, you have to show that it was not --

23 what they did was not a manifestation of their

24 disability. And so based on that -- that's just

25 my little argument with alternative schools and I

Page 249



2 want you to think about that -- but that should

3 mean that you shouldn't have any over

4 representation in alternative schools. Right?

5 Because kids shouldn't be there unless it's

6 something not connected to their disability, and

7 that should mean they're no more likely to be sent

8 there than any other kid. So that's one of my pet

9 peeves with this, is that kids with disabilities

10 are severely over represented by -- there's about

11 15 percent of our school population, kids have

12 IEP's in Pennsylvania, but about 30 percent of the

13 kids in alt ed programs have IEP's.

14 MS. SHAPIRO: Get right back to

15 me. In Philly -- there are alternative discipline

16 schools in Philly where they're fully 40 percent

17 of the young people are special education

18 students. And you must also know in terms of

19 funding, the district funds and resources the

20 seats in those schools are at the same dollar

21 level as regular education.

22 So, for instance, in a charter

23 school, you get $10,000 for a regular kid and

24 $18,000 for a special ed kid, and that's what the

25 district gets. They're only paying 10- for any

Page 250



2 kid in a discipline school, regardless of whether

3 they're regular ed or special ed. So if you're a

4 school with 40 percent special ed kids that have

5 real disabilities and you're getting resourced at

6 the regular ed rate, it's going to be really hard

7 for you to provide an appropriate education.

8 MR. LAPP: Which really goes to

9 the whole quality of the program that's happening

10 there, specifically for kids with disabilities,

11 because we hear stories all the time about kids

12 that are not being -- that are being denied the

13 services that they're entitled to, like their IEP,

14 or they're not getting their IEP updated or

15 followed at all.

16 And it also -- the legal structure

17 allows some other things that are really strange

18 with those schools. You would think that if the

19 kid's a behavior problem, the kid's disruptive,

20 that probably means that that kid needs more, that

21 kid needs more intervention from us as

22 professionals and schools, but that kid needs

23 probably -- usually, when kids are behaviorally

24 struggling -- not always, but often times they are

25 academically struggling as well, so they probably

Page 251



2 need greater academic instruction. Unfortunately,

3 the law actually allows for less in these

4 alternative schools than in a regular school.

5 So in a regular school, it

6 averages out to about 27 hours a week of

7 instruction that a kid gets. In alternative

8 schools, the State Department of Education --

9 actually, the law doesn't say this. It's the

10 Department of Education has interpreted the law to

11 say that you only have to provide 22 hours --

12 22-and-a-half hours a week, and then

13 two-and-a-half of those hours are for counseling.

14 So, really, you're only getting 20 hours of

15 instruction. So there's something wrong there

16 with that problem -- with what's the legal

17 structure in that particular regard.

18 Just a few other --

19 MS. CLARKE: David, I'm going to

20 cut you off because --

21 MR. LAPP: Okay. Too wordy?

22 MS. CLARKE: -- I want us to

23 get -- no, it's fascinating, and I could actually

24 listen to you all day, but I want to make sure

25 that we get to the answers. Because we've heard a

Page 252



2 lot about some really terrible statistics and

3 terrible situations, but what I'd like each of the

4 panel, starting with Kay, to do now is give us

5 your top one, two, three or five steps that should

6 be taken to improve the dropout rate or at least

7 improve the education of kids who are at risk for

8 dropping out.

9 MS. KYUNGSUN YU: This has been a

10 really incredible day for me, not only listening

11 to the panel here but to hear everybody talk about

12 such a broad array of educational issues has been

13 incredible.

14 What I did realize, though, is

15 that there is remarkable similarity in the -- what

16 we hear all the time. So what I heard through the

17 public hearings, as well as through a lot of the

18 report from the task force, I think that we really

19 need to -- we have a pretty good road map based on

20 research and a lot of that was presented today.

21 But let me just give you my number

22 one issue; that is, to really focus on the

23 oversight, accountability, monitoring aspect of

24 all this, recognizing that we can't have a perfect

25 record on this. You know, creating a safe and

Page 253



2 positive learning environment is one of the

3 challenges that we have to face every day. It's

4 the responsibility of the school district, but

5 very much a part of the community responsibility

6 that we owe our young people and because there is

7 so much commonality to the research and looking at

8 this, that I think we really should focus on

9 making sure that we have the accountability in

10 place to have the adults really be the ones who

11 are driving the positive change in every school.

12 And so I'm looking forward to talking more with

13 Dr. Simmons on how to maybe come up with that

14 agenda that's community driven.

15 MS. CLARKE: Brendan, do you want

16 to tell us what your top 1, 2, 5 things are that

17 we should...

18 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I have two,

19 actually. I don't need five.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. WILLIAMS: I believe in

22 empowerment. That's basically, like, all school

23 staff, basically, like, okay, have more interest

24 in the students. Have a little more one-on-one

25 conversation with the student. And like,

Page 254



2 basically, like, guide that student through the

3 years, through his four years of high school, so

4 he can, like, have a better -- he or she can have

5 a better -- what do you say -- experience in

6 education. Also -- damn, excuse me, I forgot what

7 I had to say.

8 MS. CLARKE: If you remember, then

9 we'll let you come back.

10 MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.

11 MS. CLARKE: You can come back.

12 That's fine. That's fine.

13 MS. SHAPIRO: I have three. So

14 one is pay attention to the data that we have. So

15 we have all this data about early indicators, we

16 know who's being dropped out. Pay attention to

17 it. Create mechanisms to force schools to come up

18 with really good solutions to how they're going to

19 target young people at their earliest stages so

20 this doesn't happen.

21 Second would be to tackle the

22 literacy issue. And again, this is from a K-12

23 program, we used to go to three elementary schools

24 from the district. This year it's a charter

25 school. We did some benchmark testing with their

Page 255



2 young people and 98 percent of our kids in grades

3 K-2 are exhibiting functioning at the very lowest

4 pre-kindergarten level. So it's as if they're in

5 second grade and just wasted three years in the

6 school system. Who's going to make up for that?

7 You'll never recover from that if we don't do

8 something about it.

9 A second grader should know their

10 ABC's. It's abysmal that a child could sit in a

11 seat for 180 days for three years and then not

12 know that. And that just exacerbates the problem

13 by the time they're 16, 17 years old. So figuring

14 out the stages when we have to target illiteracy

15 issues and help young people learn to read is so

16 critical.

17 And a third thing is around

18 funding, and I don't know if you can ever say

19 funding without accountability. I'm all for it,

20 if you're going to give me money, I'm going to be

21 accountable to doing with it what I'm supposed to

22 do.

23 But the State of Pennsylvania

24 needs to get serious about actually funding

25 resources in schools for at-risk kids. There is

Page 256



2 zero incentive for school districts to bring young

3 people back from dropout. They are not paid for

4 in the way the funding formula is constructed. So

5 if I bring back 2600 kids this year, I get zero

6 dollars for those young people and I'm just

7 expected to educate them. So how do you wonder

8 why districts aren't really very motivated to

9 create these alternative programs that are really

10 functional? They're not getting any dollars to do

11 it, so it's actually a strain on their system to

12 welcome those young people back. It's like an

13 absurd disincentive to keep kids out of school.

14 The other thing on the funding is:

15 Really look at the equitable funding formula.

16 When the State did their equitable funding study,

17 they gave more dollars to young people who were at

18 risk. Young people with literacy needs, with the

19 social services needs, you need more money in the

20 school to do it. And again, I don't want to say

21 just throw the cash in the pot, but really hold

22 schools accountable. If we're going to give you

23 an extra couple thousand dollars for kids with

24 literacy issues or behavior issues, you should

25 document how you're spending it on those kids.

Page 257



2 But it is a real need. You can't do something

3 with nothing.

4 MS. CLARKE: David. And before

5 David starts, I do commend you to use the study

6 that the Educational Law Center did on alternative

7 schools and their recommendations. It's quite

8 good and quite detailed. But with that, David,

9 your pocket wish list.

10 MR. LAPP: Well, obviously,

11 there's a bunch of things I'd like to change about

12 alternative schools, but it would be great to just

13 prevent kids getting sent to them at all. And so

14 I'd love to see more put into preventive programs.

15 And there are two that sort of jump out that a lot

16 of people are talking about with a lot of

17 excitement in sort of the school discipline world.

18 And there are others that are more

19 expert in this, but I'll try -- that are in this

20 room, I think, but I'll try and quickly summarize

21 the two that just -- the first of which, which has

22 a fair amount of research behind it, is a school

23 like Positive Behavior Supports or Interventions

24 and Supports, and I see some heads nodding from

25 people that recognize that that -- that is a

Page 258



2 pretty stunning track record, where it's been

3 implemented with fidelity, and there's a big

4 difference between places that implement it and

5 places that really don't do it with fidelity.

6 Philadelphia, unfortunately, is not one of those

7 that's been doing it with Fidelity.

8 But what PBS -- which Positive

9 Behavior Support, we often just say. There's a

10 couple more features of that and I'm borrowing

11 from a really good report that folks at Pubic

12 Citizens for Children and Youth, PCCY, did, on

13 this that -- it's a focus on prevention, first of

14 all, rather than reaction to discipline issues.

15 It starts with very clear, limited -- very clearly

16 defined expectations that are taught to students

17 very early and often, and it focuses on

18 acknowledging good behavior as sort of the idea

19 here through a series of reward systems.

20 Another focus feature is that it's

21 done consistently -- that problematic behavior is

22 addressed quickly, clearly, consistently. I think

23 one of the things that keeps getting -- that I

24 feel like I keep getting labeled with as being

25 soft on discipline. And I think that that's a

Page 259



2 really important thing for those of us who are

3 looking to reform these sort of practices, is to

4 dispute that not at all -- I mean, that

5 discipline -- when there's misbehavior, schools

6 need to react, absolutely, and they need to react

7 firmly and quickly. The question is: Should we

8 be excluding kids for those things and where

9 should our focus be? Should it be more on that

10 reaction or should it be more on that prevention

11 before we get to our reaction? And then how we

12 react is a big part of that.

13 Another quick thing about PBS is

14 that -- is there's a continuum, and it's very data

15 driven, and that you look at where in the school

16 you're having problems. Is it every day between

17 fourth and fifth periods, kids try to listen,

18 particularly, only to lunch, then that's where you

19 need to be focusing your efforts on in preventing

20 problems.

21 And there's a range of feature

22 PBS's, it's a range of services. There are

23 certain things that are done for all kids, and

24 it's sort of a pyramid, and there's this certain

25 -- 15 percent or so of kids that require slightly

Page 260



2 more interventions to prevent behavioral --

3 problematic behavior.

4 And then there's the absolute top

5 of the pyramid kids, which is a very few -- very

6 low percentage, frankly, of kids that require even

7 more interventions. And that through a consistent

8 approach to this, we've seen schools have just

9 dramatic results. Discipline referrals are being

10 slashed in half. The amount of time teachers

11 spend on discipline cutting so -- being reduced so

12 far that -- that -- I mean, the amount of

13 instruction the kids are getting is improving and

14 we're actually seeing schools that are doing this

15 improve test performances as well. So PBS is one

16 of the big things.

17 And the one that I'll just briefly

18 mention is the restorative justices -- restorative

19 practices programs. There's a -- in Pennsylvania,

20 we have what's become one of the preeminent

21 practitioners of this is the International

22 Institute for Restorative Practices is in

23 Bethlehem, PA, and they have -- I went there

24 recently and was struck by it. We're training --

25 the people over there, it was the majority of the

Page 261



2 people not from Pennsylvania. People coming from

3 all around the country, people coming from all

4 around the world to learn about their methods and

5 yet they're more with them than Pennsylvania

6 folks, which is fairly upsetting.

7 But they actually have done some

8 great work and there's some materials in your

9 packet about -- an article, at least, about that

10 and if you live here in Philadelphia, West

11 Philadelphia High School saw a dramatic

12 improvement after they were trained by the

13 International Institute of Restorative Practices.

14 MS. CLARKE: Any last wishes on

15 behalf of the panelists before we turn this over

16 to questions?

17 MR. WILLIAMS: I got what I wanted

18 to say.

19 MS. CLARKE: Okay, Brandon.

20 MR. WILLIAMS: Basically, I was

21 focusing on the SAT's because you notice how the

22 scores in this state is, like, real low, SAT

23 scores, things like that. I feel as though, like,

24 the schools should be, like, focused more on,

25 like, what's on the SAT's because a lot of the

Page 262



2 times, like, kids don't really know what's on

3 SAT's when they get where they have to take them.

4 And then, like, it's, like, they're real stuck on

5 certain things that they don't understand. And I

6 feel that the high schools should, like, give them

7 that extra information.

8 And my second reason was, better

9 recreation. Recreation meaning, like, more

10 outside time. You know, because most of the times

11 nowadays, it's, like, kids is, like, in school,

12 like, eight hours a day. Most of them, the whole

13 entire day, they are in school sitting down all

14 the time. That's not -- that's not real good for,

15 like, your heart, it's not really for that. I

16 feel they should have better exercise, more

17 recreation time and less assessments.

18 Because a lot of schools, like,

19 they give, like, a lot of material, too much

20 homework and things like that. I feel as though

21 they should teach all the stuff they need to teach

22 in the classrooms and teach it thoroughly because,

23 like, you don't really need too much assessments

24 just to prove you know the material.

25 And my fifth one was better credit

Page 263



2 programs basically, like, to redeem the credits.

3 Like people that have been left back years ago --

4 years back, they need to redeem those credits.

5 And, also, I wanted to go back to

6 what I said about the SAT's and, like, basic

7 assessments. Basically, I feel as though, like,

8 they should also stick to what kids relate to, the

9 students relate to. Like when they go in schools

10 and they teach American history and things like

11 that with regards to, like, the Presidents and all

12 that, that's all good, but, like, most kids

13 need -- we need, like, stuff that relate to our

14 race, because you see me, I'm multiracial, I'm

15 mixed with, like, five other races, so I need to,

16 like, know a little more about my races. You

17 understand? Like, I really do.

18 MS. CLARKE: Thank you, Brandon.

19 And thank you very much to our panel. Five

20 minutes for questions. Andy?

21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So just

22 because I'm sitting in a room with a bunch of

23 lawyers, I want to put something out there. I

24 think Youth Action For Change started this chapter

25 this year. This is our first year. Brandon's one

Page 264



2 of our founding members, and we have a lot of

3 young people who tell a lot of the same stories

4 and it's really -- it's disheartening. And as you

5 build personal relationships with young people, it

6 starts to really get at you.

7 And I think we talk about it in

8 all these vague ways. Like one little mess up

9 here or this didn't work there, and not really

10 realizing, actually, the impact it has on people's

11 lives. And so for us and when you see Brandon's

12 part and the group of young people who are working

13 on a report, Real Voices in the Dropout Crisis.

14 We have another report that's being done by young

15 people in our program that are working on zero

16 tolerances. Both of those are being released in

17 November.

18 But Raheem, for example, is in DC

19 right now speaking at the Department of Education.

20 He's speaking at the White House, meeting with

21 senators and congressmen about his story. He

22 talks about how he was kicked out of his school,

23 John Wanamaker, in seventh grade and never was

24 given a hearing, never -- his mom was told to sign

25 a paper. He was shipped to CEP, where he was

Page 265



2 severely abused. And now CEP doesn't have a

3 contract, right, so we figured out, after seven

4 years, that CEP doesn't have a contract, they're

5 no good. So what happens to all those kids that

6 didn't make it through that program? What legal

7 strategies can they employ?

8 You know, my father's a lifelong

9 schoolteacher in the classroom. He says if a

10 medical doctor doesn't read a couple journals a

11 week, they get sued for malpractice. One of the

12 answers is suing school districts for malpractice

13 and holding them accountable. And so we have a

14 lot of -- we have a lot of young people who have

15 fallen through the cracks now, who are 18, 19, 20,

16 without high school diplomas at the complete

17 failure of the school district.

18 And so, you know, when they're

19 doing illegal things, like sending kids to

20 disciplinary schools without parents understanding

21 what's going on. So just, you know, a little food

22 for thought. I'm going to put them out, since

23 we're in a room of lawyers. Any creative ideas,

24 we're open to them. We've got a lot of young

25 people who can give some really great testimony to

Page 266



2 move forward on some kind of legal strategy.

3 MS. CLARKE: Thanks. Let's see,

4 Harold?

5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm not

6 trying to answer the question, so this is a

7 different one. I was struck by how nothing was

8 said about school security and policing as

9 possible contributing factors for kids being

10 pushed out of school. Any reflections? Is there

11 a perception that there's a problem? That seemed

12 to be kind of a missing element of this

13 conversation.

14 MR. WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, I meant

15 to ask you that. I meant to talk about that, too.

16 Basically, like, I feel as though, like, the

17 security in the schools is, like -- it's like

18 they're not properly trained, you know, because,

19 like, they don't know how to be security. They

20 don't know how to be police. Like, you're not

21 supposed to put your hands on the students,

22 period, unless you have the right reason for doing

23 so. I also feel as though, like, they really

24 shouldn't verbally abuse students neither because

25 a lot of security guards, they get away with that

Page 267



2 and some students, they put out reports on that

3 saying such and such, he said something to me

4 really disrespectful, he said something real

5 racist and derogatory and I didn't really like

6 that. And I feel as though they should move

7 strongly on that.

8 MR. LAPP: Well, I was going to

9 say Harold should be answering your own question

10 because you probably can speak to this as well as

11 any of us.

12 But last week -- or it's been two

13 weeks ago, some of you may have seen in the

14 newspaper a small, little article that 60 police

15 officers in the School District of Philadelphia

16 from schools all around the City were trained. It

17 was coordinated by the Mental Health Association

18 of Southeastern Pennsylvania. And they brought in

19 advocates from all around the City. They brought

20 in students to help train the kids. It was five

21 days, forty hours of training. And the police

22 officers came out to the person saying, "This is

23 the best training I've ever had. This is going to

24 be an incredible change to the way they work with

25 kids." The point is the same as Brandon's, the

Page 268



2 training makes a huge difference for that.

3 And yeah, so that came out and

4 then, at the same time, there was another article

5 about the -- Chief Myron Patterson, who's a person

6 in the district, saying, "We're going to turn this

7 school police force -- we're going to model it on

8 our city police force," and it was so -- I was

9 feeling schizophrenic because you have, like, two

10 different messages coming at the same. So, yeah,

11 I think that's a huge problem.

12 The other thing I'll just add

13 quickly is, you know, the model that a lot of

14 people point to is what Judge Steven Teske has

15 done in Clayton County, Georgia, where he brings

16 in the police, school resource officers, they're

17 called, and the social service agencies, the

18 school and, as a judge, he calls them all together

19 and makes them talk to each other and makes them

20 work together and they've seen pretty dramatic --

21 really dramatic improvements there, and they have

22 the police officers actively engaged in trying to

23 reduce the number of referrals that they're making

24 to the juvenile justice system, and sort of

25 empowering police as part of the solution for

Page 269



2 reducing referrals and it seems to make a

3 difference there.

4 I'm almost nervous about that

5 approach because I know there's been horrible

6 problems with school police in our schools, so it

7 seems dangerous to encourage the use of more

8 police. But by any means, it seems like the

9 police we are using, we really should be training

10 them.

11 MS. CLARKE: Other questions?

12 Deborah?

13 MS. MEIER: Comments and then a

14 question to you. First of all, by the way, we

15 have found ways to get the police out of our

16 schools. I think it's a very odd thing to bring a

17 policeman into schools who are not accountable to

18 the school, but to their own hierarchy, and if

19 they're going to be there, they should be well

20 trained, but it -- and it's possible.

21 A good school should not

22 require -- a halfway good school should not

23 require a policeman in the school. And I can give

24 you the names of a variety of schools, including

25 Walt Whitman in New York, that has, you know, 1800

Page 270



2 kids in it and there's no -- in most of the high

3 schools in New York, you go through a security

4 check up. I mean, it changes the very nature of

5 schools when you have to come in first and go

6 through the security. They have long lines --

7 Brandeis High School, which was referred to

8 earlier, they have a line forming every morning as

9 they go through security. It's like going on the

10 airplanes. And I think it sets a terrible tone.

11 Second, I just wanted to remind

12 you because you said by second grade, if they're

13 not reading. In the highest scoring country in

14 the world, Finland, they don't even start any kind

15 of teaching of reading until they're seven years

16 old, which is the second grade. So it's not that

17 children can't learn to read later, because

18 they're already labeled a failure, and once you're

19 labeled a failure, there are serious consequences.

20 MS. CLARKE: We have 30 seconds to

21 this program.

22 MS. MEIER: Okay. But I

23 especially know -- I think there are two separate

24 issues here and it would help the public to

25 distinguish them. Parents want the bad kids out

Page 271



2 of the class, and the parents of the so-called bad

3 kids have a self-interest and sort of a due

4 process. And there are cases, I think, that work

5 with the school distinguishing whether their

6 reason is to -- whether they're taking the kid out

7 for the sake of the other kids or whether they're

8 taking him out for his sake.

9 And as someone who was the

10 principal of many schools over the years, it's

11 helpful, to me, to realize what I'm doing and what

12 my purpose is and then think how to proceed, but

13 not to be hypocritical and remove kids where you

14 have no idea, at least to that moment, anything

15 better you can do for them and that you are really

16 using it for a different purpose.

17 MS. CLARKE: If anybody --

18 MS. MEIER: I just wonder if

19 there's some way we can acknowledge those two

20 separate purposes.

21 MR. LAPP: The one thing I meant

22 to say earlier, which is right on point with that,

23 is that same study that I referred to, the Skiba

24 and Losen study, looked at schools with high

25 suspension rates and compared them to similarly

Page 272



2 demographic schools and found that, you know, the

3 schools that are suspending more, it's not -- you

4 know, the idea is get rid of the difficult kid so

5 the other kids can learn. Right? But that

6 doesn't happen. That when we do that, those

7 schools are actually performing worse. All the

8 kids. That when we're getting rid of -- when

9 we're getting rid of bad kids, everybody is

10 somehow suffering. So we -- we're just -- we're

11 working on a false premise when schools work on

12 that.

13 So I think you're exactly right,

14 schools need to know that, that that doesn't help

15 and that we need to stop removing kids for that

16 purpose, and that's hard to hear. As a parent

17 with two kids in the schools, there's a sort of

18 visceral reaction you have, that there's kids

19 drunk in the class and you think that getting rid

20 of that kid is going to help for your kid, but

21 that's not what the evidence shows.

22 MS. CLARKE: Thank you all. Let's

23 give our panelist a nice round of applause.

24 (Applause.)

25 MR. JOSEPH: Okay. Here's the

Page 273



2 plan for the rest of the day. You have a

3 seven-minute break and then we'll be meeting with

4 the next panel and I'm telling you, the next panel

5 has lost three minutes. You've lost 18 of your 15

6 and I've lost five of my 15.

7 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

8 MR. JOSEPH: I'm turning the

9 podium over to Jenny, again, and we'll getting

10 going.

11 MS. CLARKE: Okay. So this is the

12 time we've had all the experts in the room and

13 this is the time we really want to engage you.

14 But if you'll bear with us for a few more minutes,

15 we have two national experts in civic engagement

16 here to set the stage. Because what we want to do

17 is we want to talk about solutions now and we want

18 to build on Dr. Simmons's exculpation to us to

19 begin to build cross community platforms.

20 But before we do, I think some of

21 us may need a little instruction about how to do

22 that, so we have two experts in the subject. We

23 have Brian Armstead, who's the director of civic

24 engagement of the Philadelphia Education Fund, and

25 we have Amanda Brown, senior vice president of the

Page 274



2 Public Education Network.

3 So what we're going to do, just to

4 set the stage, is we're going to ask, first,

5 Amanda to talk to us about the necessary

6 conditions for effecting change in public

7 education. What are the tools that we have

8 available to us as -- since we aren't necessarily

9 the parents or the students, what are the tools

10 that those of us have?

11 MS. BROWN: Thanks, Jennifer.

12 Look, I will talk about tools, but

13 just two minutes of background, so you know. The

14 Public Education Network is a network of

15 community-based organizations, like you have here

16 in Philadelphia with the Philadelphia Education

17 Fund, who are all over the country in high poverty

18 school districts, and they're working to try and

19 improve public education. And they really do that

20 in two -- sort of broadly speaking, two major

21 strategies.

22 One is working directly with the

23 school districts, and Brian's going to tell you

24 more about the pathways, things like the College

25 Access Program and who's passing out scholarships

Page 275



2 and so working, really, to try to improve what's

3 going on in the school district.

4 And the second strategy is public

5 engagement, which we've heard some about today,

6 and I think Warren laid a terrific foundation for.

7 But the premise there is, really, that the schools

8 can't do their job alone. They need the support

9 of the entire public. And when we think about the

10 public, we mean not only the organized stakeholder

11 groups, the institutions and sort of formal

12 entities of those facilities, we also mean general

13 public, the voters, the citizens, the folks like

14 you and I and others, that -- others that are less

15 informed about public education, but need to

16 understand why education is important in their

17 communities, even if they don't have kids in the

18 system and why they should care.

19 So we think about sort of three

20 roles of that citizen, that member of the paths.

21 One is setting expectations for its schools,

22 right, demanding that there be high quality

23 schools in their community.

24 A second role has to do with

25 holding elected officials accountable and when you

Page 276



2 go to the ballot box, that you're thinking about

3 public education when we're deciding who to vote

4 for, whether it's the mayor or it's a local

5 official or if it's the President of the United

6 States.

7 And a third role has to do with

8 allocating resources and whether that's

9 fundraising, whether it's a tax levy, those are

10 really the key roles that citizens play. It

11 doesn't have to do with tutoring -- that's good,

12 too -- but it has to do with the civic roles that

13 Americans play. And you can read more about that.

14 In fact, there's a chapter in the materials

15 written by (inaudible) that goes into a lot of

16 detail about those roles.

17 So our local education funds, who

18 are involved in a public engagement, do a number

19 of things to try and flesh that role out. Right?

20 They'll hold candidate boards, like school board

21 elections, it's held in a round. They'll

22 translate the school district budget into

23 layperson's guidance for the district budget

24 because otherwise it's impenetrable, so people can

25 get educated about the dollars meant for the

Page 277



2 schools.

3 In New Jersey, our local education

4 fund in Paterson for many years would do fact

5 sheets on the various Abbott decisions. What does

6 it mean for you in terms of pre-kindergarten?

7 Right? So people would begin to understand what

8 was going on in their school districts and why

9 it's important.

10 And they would hold community

11 forums, and this gets to, really, one of the

12 things that Warren talked about at lunch, the need

13 to have institutional commitment at the community

14 level for high quality schools and, really, a

15 community understanding of what that means and the

16 various roles that that -- the ways that that

17 plays out.

18 So one example for that -- of that

19 is our Mobile Education Fund, which he made

20 reference to, which held community meetings

21 engaging 1400 members of their community across 50

22 different conversations, living rooms, community

23 centers and so on, and they developed, through

24 that, a strategic plan. They then had a

25 representative of each of those 50 come together

Page 278



2 in a 50-person sort of cadre that developed a

3 strategy called "Yes, We Can" for the Mobile

4 community.

5 And it was subsequently endorsed

6 by the school board, the mayor and the governor

7 got involved, and it has become the foundation for

8 the plan of that school district. And if you ask

9 our LEF director, local education fund director,

10 in Mobile, she will tell you that that plan is

11 owned by the community so that if she got hit by a

12 truck, it would continue.

13 And in the implementation of that

14 plan, they've gotten, you know, churches to help

15 with tutoring. They have 700 community partners,

16 businesses and other institutions in the

17 community, to play a role in supporting their

18 public schools.

19 So, Jennifer, you asked about

20 tools. I'll do two quick tools, and then turn it

21 over back to you and have Brian talk more about

22 what's happening in Philadelphia. But there are

23 two tools that I would draw your attention to, and

24 there's a flier, again, in your materials about

25 each.

Page 279



2 I mentioned that we think about

3 the public both in terms of formal institutions as

4 well as the general public. So one of the tools

5 is called "Give Kids Good Schools." It's an

6 eadvocacy campaign that's meant to get the general

7 public, a person who cares about education,

8 doesn't know, really, what they can do, may not

9 have kids in the system, what can I do to help

10 schools? That website -- and there's also,

11 actually, a "Give Kids Good Schools" week coming

12 up in October where there are activities going on

13 around the country.

14 But you can learn, vote and act.

15 So it's a call to action in support of public

16 education. And the website gives you, again, very

17 layperson friendly tools to questions that I can

18 ask my school board member or of my teacher or how

19 do I tell if my school is good. So it's sort of a

20 standard case agenda in ten easy bites. You can

21 learn what makes for a good school.

22 You vote: Again, thinking about

23 elections this year in particular, what are the

24 kinds of questions I should consider when I decide

25 who to vote for. And action: I can take action

Page 280



2 from my desktop. I can send letters to Congress,

3 that sort of thing. So there's a set of tools

4 there.

5 The other is called a civic index

6 for public education. It has to do with more

7 formal institutions in the community that can play

8 a role in support of schools. They can be, again,

9 how we've come to understand, that schools need

10 the support of institutions within their

11 community, whether it's higher education or

12 business or parent groups. We've divided the

13 community up into ten sectors and we have those

14 formal groups that you would expect, but also some

15 maybe less obvious suspects, like how well does

16 the media cover public education in my community?

17 To what extent does my community get into the

18 values of tolerance and inclusiveness? Those

19 sorts of indications.

20 And, again, the flyer that's in

21 your materials has a list of what those ten steps

22 are. And again, in the website, there's a public

23 opinion poll. It's based on polling. The

24 community can do like sort of a self-assessment of

25 how well its community, in those ten areas, is

Page 281



2 supporting its public schools. It can do an

3 assessment. It can then go to the resources and

4 other tips that are provided to figure out how to

5 respond when they get a low score in a particular

6 area. And again, it's about using that data to

7 engage the community to come up with a plan that

8 says, here's where our community is, here's where

9 we needed it to be, how are we going to get to

10 there and have a community engagement process that

11 allows people to take appropriate roles in

12 supporting schools.

13 MS. CLARKE: So we've talked a

14 little bit about what the tools are. And before

15 we launch into our discussion, for those of you

16 who aren't actively engaged, I'd like Brian to

17 just talk to you about what we already have in

18 place in Philadelphia. We're not starting on a

19 blank slate. We, in fact, have a number of very

20 effective and broad platforms.

21 MR. ARMSTEAD: Thank you. Let me

22 just first say just a little bit about the

23 previous questions about the -- I think it's

24 important to note to people who don't do civic

25 engagement on a regular basis that you may get

Page 282



2 confused if you listen to different people talk

3 about what civic engagement is or is not, and I

4 think it's a little bit important to be able to be

5 clear, especially when most of us in the room will

6 probably have a similar idea.

7 And so, basically, what I'm

8 getting at is one of the things you talked about

9 is organizations that support schools, so they may

10 be doing tutoring, whether they're doing mentoring

11 or helping to connect to providers of business

12 programs, you're arranging for businesses to help,

13 you know, provide some services to the teachers of

14 students in a school. Very nonthreatening kind of

15 supportive ways of going about it. That is a form

16 of civic engagement. And typically, when school

17 districts say they want to have civic engagement,

18 that's what they're asking for.

19 But what we're going to be talking

20 about today is more about advocacy. And it's

21 really more about how do you actually define a

22 position that's going to make a substantive move

23 forward and actually fight the power fights,

24 organize yourselves, really try to figure out what

25 the dynamics are, who's against a position, who

Page 283



2 has their own ideas, how to actually go about

3 influencing something and moving an agenda

4 forward? Which is different, but I think it's

5 important to talk about that because you'll get

6 different responses from people inside and outside

7 of the power structure and, often, there are

8 arguments about things and people aren't even

9 having the same discussion with the same language.

10 So I just wanted to be clear about that.

11 So when I was asked to talk about

12 initiatives that are happening in Philadelphia, as

13 in much of the country, you know, the tools of

14 civic engagement are often just provided for me.

15 Right? So you have local groups, like Research

16 For Action, doing incredible research. Right? Or

17 you have -- somebody mentioned PCCY, Public

18 Citizens for Children and Youth, that are very

19 good at providing advocacy groups. They're not

20 pure research in the same way that you do it or

21 the Consortium in Chicago may do it, but what they

22 do is really figure out the issues that are going

23 on, let's say, around zero-tolerance and positive

24 behavioral supports and school climate, and they

25 really make a case for moving forward in a certain

Page 284



2 direction. So those are two sources of

3 information that, if you all want more, those are

4 places you can go for more information.

5 The Philadelphia Education Fund,

6 we are very good at convening people. I think one

7 of the things that Warren talked about which is

8 really true, is that it's hard for any individual

9 or any particular group to go about fighting.

10 Again, this is about power constructs, right, and

11 how to really influence an agenda. And so it's

12 hard for any one of us, or when Amanda and I get

13 up on our soap boxes and convince people that they

14 need to make a certain change. So how do we build

15 a collective will?

16 A part of that, a large part of

17 that is informing people, but then also convening

18 people, and that's what we do, particularly at the

19 PA Ed Fund. So we do something called The

20 Education First Compact, which is a pretty broad

21 array of education stakeholders looking at public

22 education in Philadelphia. We meet once a month.

23 And again, if you're interested in that, come and

24 see me after and I can give you more information.

25 We also convene the Math and

Page 285



2 Science Coalition, which are businesses and other

3 people that are really interested in improving

4 math and science education. Right? And so

5 there's all sorts of reports talking about the

6 fact that we're falling behind the rest the world.

7 But how do you actually go about making changes in

8 the teaching and learning that's taking place in

9 the classrooms to make sure that improvement is

10 made in the classrooms around teaching and

11 learning?

12 There's -- Ron Cowell was here

13 earlier. His organization, the EPLC, have really

14 led a state-wide coalition around state funding.

15 And again, I'm moving quickly because of time, but

16 I can go into more depth of any one of these that

17 people want or you can see me afterwards, but

18 there's an incredible coalition in the State that,

19 if you're not plugged into, around trying to make

20 sure there's equitable and adequate funding. This

21 is another avenue. There's an established

22 coalition that you can plug yourself into that can

23 help give you the language and talk to you about

24 which elected officials are the people that we

25 need to target and how do we go about really

Page 286



2 trying to influence that agenda.

3 Last year, there was a

4 particularly, I think, effective collaboration,

5 the Education First Compact, which we convened,

6 joined forces with a group called the Cross City

7 Campaign for School Reform, which is a coalition

8 of grass root organizing groups, so parent

9 organizers, student organizers, they got together.

10 And so together, the compact, which especially

11 deals with a lot of institutional folks and

12 organizational folks and the grass roots folks

13 from Cross City, came together around the

14 Effective Teaching Campaign, which really

15 influenced a lot -- the beginning of last year and

16 going back a little bit, the school district was

17 developing their -- you know, their strategic

18 plan, so we had a lot of input into that; a lot of

19 budget implications. Once they developed a plan,

20 what it actually would spend money for; a lot of

21 implications for that.

22 Over the summer, last year,

23 Michael Churchill, in particular, at PILCOP, and

24 also I see Alfredo Compo who was in here, also,

25 really played a significant role in the ending of

Page 287



2 the desegregation court hearing that had been

3 going on for decades in the City. Well, the

4 result of that were some things that I think can

5 really make a positive impact for Philadelphia if

6 we now monitor them. So -- but a lot of that was

7 as a result of the work that came out in the

8 Effective Teaching Campaign.

9 And, of course, the final piece,

10 really, was the contract between the teachers'

11 union and the school district, which, frankly,

12 neither side wanted any community input into. But

13 I think that we were able to have some significant

14 impact to try to help them re-think what they're

15 doing and what their final agreement came out to.

16 There are a lot of other examples

17 as well, but limited time.

18 MS. CLARKE: Well, what we have is

19 we have a very rich, densely-worded, existing

20 group of platforms. So now what I want to do is

21 turn this over to you, and I'm going to ask a

22 multipart question and I'd ask any of you to

23 address any parts of it, and that is: What are

24 the substantive matters that we, as a community,

25 should be working on? What are the things that we

Page 288



2 aren't working on that we need to work on, how do

3 we work on them, and who's missing from the table

4 in all of the current collaborations? Who's

5 missing from the table? Who are the stakeholders

6 that we need to engage?

7 I'm going to ask you all to talk

8 about that now and then, at the end of the day,

9 I'm going to ask what you are willing to do. So

10 be careful if you stand up. Anybody want to go

11 first? And, Brian and Amanda, I hope you'll just

12 chime in as we go.

13 DR. PERRY: This is more of a

14 question than a comment. I'm wondering, given the

15 current climate that we exist in, are there places

16 in the City where ordinary people can routinely

17 talk about the issues that Warren raised in his

18 presentation? Are there places where people can

19 talk about the control that corporate leaders

20 have? Because what I find, you know, folks are

21 confused about what's going on. They -- I don't

22 know how many people have been -- and they were --

23 they found the wait -- ordinary people found the

24 Waiting For Superman movie compelling, but they

25 knew something was wrong. So how -- are there

Page 289



2 places where people can routinely have these

3 conversations with ordinary people that build an

4 understanding of the political climate in which we

5 are operating in?

6 MR. ARMSTEAD: You know, I'll

7 speak locally and then maybe we can talk about

8 other cities. But, yes, there are some

9 opportunities, but not nearly as many as I can

10 think that there need to be. So one thing, there

11 are organizations that periodically will hold

12 forums -- and those are good -- but what I'm

13 getting from you, and I completely agree with, is

14 we need something that's really more ongoing and

15 people can plug into when they're ready to start

16 having those conversations.

17 You know, there are groups that do

18 outreach and have conversations with people. They

19 tend to be more, I think -- the more consistent

20 they are, the more localized they are. So, for

21 example, you have some people from Action

22 United -- it used to be ACORN, now they're Action

23 United -- that are back in the neighborhoods,

24 they're organized again. They have continual

25 conversations with their leaders, right? But how

Page 290



2 do we have that happen so that people across the

3 City have an opportunity to plug in?

4 I mentioned the compact, but, to

5 be honest, that happens 8:00 to 10:00 in the

6 morning, the first Thursday of every month. It's

7 meant for people who work at organizations because

8 it's easier for them to spend some time in the

9 beginning of the day and then they leave and they

10 do the rest of their work. But we need to think

11 about how do we develop some kind of a vehicle to

12 have similar kinds of information going to regular

13 people and give them a chance to actually talk

14 about what they're hearing and voice their

15 thoughts and their concerns.

16 So that's a partial yes, but, to

17 me, it's an identifiable need that we have to

18 figure out how to really address.

19 MS. CLARKE: Other comments?

20 Michael.

21 MR. CHURCHILL: One possible tool,

22 frankly, is the public school Notebooks website,

23 which has a very rich interactive conversation and

24 which could really be built on if we decided to

25 expand it and use it. But there are a number of

Page 291



2 topics that control and then there are huge

3 numbers that don't, and we haven't figured out how

4 to use that tool yet, but it's certainly one that

5 is potentially there.

6 MS. BROWN: Jennifer, I have an

7 additional comment on this subject. And I think

8 there's the physical space in Philadelphia, but

9 certainly there's an environment with this huge

10 influx of mass media attention to public education

11 that provides an opportunity for us to engage

12 around the issues that get raised. So people have

13 all different takes, most of whom are not so hot

14 on Waiting for Superman, but it does provide an

15 opportunity for people to convene conversations

16 about the issues that are raised.

17 And there are actually another

18 half dozen education documentaries that are, of

19 course, not getting anywhere near the attention,

20 but that also have a different perspective. And

21 Community Concern is one. From August to June.

22 There are about five or six out there, they all

23 have websites, and they have conversation paths

24 and so on.

25 The attention that Channel 4, that

Page 292



2 NBC has given with Education Nation, there were

3 several conversations earlier this week on the

4 Today Show, I guess it was Meet the Press and so

5 on. The coverage that a lot of the newspapers are

6 now giving to education in a more thoughtful way

7 than sort of the crisis of the moment, these are

8 good news. Today, USA Today, they reported on the

9 issues of the Supreme Court (inaudible.)

10 So I guess I'm just raising this

11 as an opportunity to sort of take issues that get

12 raised, the fact that it's in a little bit more of

13 the mass media, I think is a good thing because we

14 have a chance to shape the conversation in the way

15 that we want.

16 One of our challenges, though, is

17 that we don't have -- and Warren talked a little

18 about this -- is we don't have the message in a

19 succinct way. Right? We can't say, as they do,

20 charters, union is bad; you know, tests, school

21 testing. We don't have this sort of one-word

22 answer that they do. And so one of the

23 challenges, I think, when we go into these

24 community conversations, we say community

25 engagement. And we, even on the panel have

Page 293



2 different definitions of what we think it is and

3 we aren't positive of the definition. So how do

4 we define community? Well, who's in my community?

5 Is it my block? Is it my school district? Et

6 cetera. So it's -- that is a big challenge for

7 us, is trying to get some of this lesson learned,

8 but I think the opportunity is there more than

9 it's been in awhile.

10 MR. ARMSTEAD: If I can just say,

11 also, I'm glad you said because, you know, Jenny's

12 going to be asking what you all can do, and part

13 of the reason that we don't have the kind of

14 conversations that I would love to see happening

15 in Philadelphia is simply a capacity issue.

16 But if there are people that are

17 out there in this audience and you happen to know

18 that, in your neighborhood, you'd love to see a

19 certain conversation happen, but you just don't

20 have access to the people or the information that

21 could really facilitate that conversation or what

22 have you, we can do that. We can help you plug

23 the right people in to come in and either

24 facilitate or meet or inform your group and

25 inspire a discussion or what have you.

Page 294



2 But, often, it's the logistics of

3 trying to make these meetings happen, to make sure

4 you actually do it right to get people to come out

5 which takes a lot of energy and effort because you

6 have to plug yourself into a community. And so I

7 don't know the neighborhood, it would take me nine

8 times as long to get people to come out than if

9 you do it because you know your neighborhood or

10 your work community or your professional community

11 or whatever it is that you feel needs to get

12 informed on these varies issues. So I would

13 invite you all to think about that, about the role

14 that you can play as a person to connect us to

15 your communities.

16 MS. CLARKE: Sheila.

17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. I

18 like your question and I think it's an excellent

19 question to ask, and I think the answer is that I

20 don't think that we actually have a place. And I

21 do feel that there is a disconnect really almost

22 between the education community and the community

23 in general.

24 And I think, just to answer

25 Jenny's question: Who's missing is parents. You

Page 295



2 know, I mean, we have people who work in community

3 engagement and civic engagement, but that's not

4 the exact same as someone whose job is I work in

5 the mail room and I'm just a parent.

6 And in Philadelphia --

7 Philadelphia is -- it's a community that has a lot

8 of poverty, and it's a community where a lot of

9 parents didn't even finish high school, where like

10 the parents are probably operating on an eighth

11 grade reading level and that nobody cares about

12 our parents in Philadelphia. They don't know what

13 we're saying.

14 We have our meetings, you know, we

15 speak in jargon, we speak the language, you know,

16 we speak the acronyms. I've been at PCCY for

17 four-and-a-half years, I've worked at the Notebook

18 two years before then. It took me years to

19 understand this language, so I don't think that we

20 are talking to their -- talking to parents,

21 talking to regular people in a way that they can

22 understand. And we talk about this in the

23 education community a lot, that a lot of times we

24 don't even have -- you know, we have meetings

25 during the day for those of us who are

Page 296



2 professionals. During nine to five, we can meet

3 and talk about these situations. Parents have

4 their own jobs from nine to five. It's really

5 hard for them to get to these types of

6 conversations.

7 PCCY actually has -- we do

8 advocacy workshops and that starts with a survey,

9 we try to teach parents and community groups what

10 is necessary for a good school, because a lot of

11 them don't know what the class size should be, how

12 much experience a teacher should have. They don't

13 know these things, and so I think there is a

14 disconnect.

15 You know, I'm tired of Waiting For

16 Superman, but I have to say that Waiting For

17 Superman opened the conversation up to the

18 ordinary person, but it's something that we can

19 work on.

20 MS. CLARKE: We've been talking a

21 lot about process, but how about substance? What

22 is our one word? Bill.

23 MR. JONES: I've been concerned

24 today. I haven't heard anything about what

25 happens in the classroom. We've talked a lot

Page 297



2 about curriculum, involvement, the government.

3 I'm concerned about pedagogy. As far as I can

4 tell, we're still trying to teach the same way we

5 did a hundred years ago, by and large. We have an

6 entirely different population out there today. We

7 have enough people who have a different

8 perspective on life and a different background.

9 A hundred years ago, the

10 competition was a church service or a play or

11 something like that. There was no, you know,

12 iPods and computers and videos and all this other

13 stuff competing with us. We have to change the

14 entire way that we teach in schools. That's why

15 they're dropping out. They're bored to tears.

16 And you can talk about the other things that they

17 explain, you know, family problems and so on. If

18 they really liked coming to school, they'd be

19 there, family problems or not. That's the

20 problem, and I haven't heard a word about that.

21 MS. CLARKE: Bill, I went to

22 public school and I can't spell. Help me with

23 this.

24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

25 P-E-D-A-G-O-G-Y.

Page 298



2 MS. CLARKE: Deborah.

3 MS. MEIER: I agree with you about

4 pedagogy, but I'm also just thinking about what

5 Warren said about our getting the message. We're

6 not the executive board for the schools for the

7 future. And I do think we have to think of

8 something that doesn't just defer to the kind of

9 school we would like to have. So, in that sense,

10 I don't think this -- I think we're trying to

11 connect -- we can come in and agree on pedagogy or

12 exactly what's the right curriculum. It's

13 something to do with Warren's point that the power

14 belongs to the people who are closest to the --

15 like a democratic principal, the people who decide

16 things are the people inside the schools, and that

17 schools need to just -- they're reflective. It's

18 in that area that I think there's a lot of bridge

19 here. And I think somebody -- somebody needs to

20 come up with one.

21 And, you know, I think if it's

22 72 percent good, I think we should leave it at

23 that and not worry about trying to get it so that

24 I would like it at 99 percent. In other words, I

25 think we need a very short statement of what

Page 299



2 unites us, and then I think we need to take a poll

3 and -- I just think of the number of people who

4 have blogs who I agree with, and the number of

5 organizations -- probably true here in

6 Philadelphia -- I always think you're so lucky,

7 you have the Notebook.

8 You know, there are five or six

9 different organizations in New York City that

10 sound exactly the same to me. They're

11 parent-based organizations for the kind of general

12 reform that I have in mind. They don't talk to

13 each other either. So I just think -- I think we

14 need some way of bringing together the people who

15 are already in action, but in isolation from each

16 other, and I wish somebody would take the lead in

17 doing that, and it could be anybody. And when you

18 say you're willing to do that for Philadelphia --

19 is that what you were saying?

20 MR. CHURCHILL: Yes.

21 (Laughter.)

22 MS. MEIER: So I just -- I think

23 we have to be very specific in getting some people

24 on the ground in different cities who are willing

25 to coordinate what is already there, and then move

Page 300



2 from there, because I think there's a lot out

3 there, but everybody feels isolated and

4 everybody's trying to persuade each other or

5 somebody else and trying to find out what we all

6 agree about.

7 MS. CLARKE: I would suggest that

8 Philadelphia is unique in the sense that because

9 of the work of Brian and Ron Cowell and the

10 Education Law Fund and Public Interest Law Center,

11 there's less of that, at least among the education

12 advocates, people speaking in silos, but there are

13 a lot of people who aren't in the room and there

14 are a lot of people who aren't in the

15 conversation, and I just throw that out. In terms

16 of building a cross community collaborative, I

17 think we're okay with education advocates talking

18 to each other, but where else do we need to go?

19 Yes?

20 MS. DOUGLAS: Hi. My name is

21 Rhasheda Douglas. I'm an attorney with the U.S.

22 Department of Education, Office for Civil Rights,

23 and I've also had the distinct pleasure of being a

24 student of Professor Joseph when I was at Rutgers

25 Law School in Camden.

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2 And one thing that I think this

3 gentleman over here mentioned, Bill, is focusing

4 on more what's being taught in the classroom. The

5 other thing that really struck me is the young man

6 on the panel. The first thing that he mentioned

7 that was very important to him was empowerment.

8 He said empowerment, but then he went on to

9 describe having someone in the classroom that can

10 engage him, motivate him, and somewhat, I guess,

11 be a mentor to him as well.

12 I had an opportunity this past

13 spring to go into Philadelphia public schools as

14 part of my job to talk to disabled students on

15 transitioning to college, and within those

16 evaluations from those students, the overwhelming

17 majority of them stated, "Oh, I enjoyed having Ms.

18 Douglas there because she didn't talk down to us.

19 She spoke to us" -- I guess I made them feel I was

20 interested in hearing back from them.

21 I think one of the issues that was

22 mentioned is if we have teachers that are coming

23 into a community that they don't know about, that

24 they perhaps haven't had a chance to become

25 educated about and to find out more about the

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2 children and what motivates them and what helps

3 foster that connection there -- because I think,

4 as we all know, every child can learn, but they

5 have to be motivated to think that they can, and

6 to be motivated to think that they can go to

7 college and secure a career, but unless they have

8 adults that are willing to really not only talk at

9 and preach at them, but be a part of their lives

10 continually, they're not going to do it unless

11 they're extremely motivated individuals. And we

12 do have a few of them, but that's not the majority

13 of the students that are in public schools right

14 now. So that was the only thing I wanted to say.

15 MR. ARMSTEAD: So I actually think

16 that with your comments about personalization and

17 connection and Neal Jones's comments about

18 teaching and learning in the classroom, that most

19 of the advocates in the education community would

20 agree with you wholeheartedly. In fact, we put

21 forth a lot of different positions and try to

22 organize around, you know, various components of

23 that.

24 But sort of going back to what

25 Barb was saying, a lot of days it's hard to cut

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2 through the clutter. You know, there's other

3 agendas that are out there and/or often there are

4 people who will agree, but they don't think about

5 how to actually implement anything all the way

6 through.

7 And so if you're talking about

8 teaching and learning and you're saying, well, you

9 know, we want to do something. We want to do more

10 projects next month. Right? And then someone

11 says, well, that's a great idea. We'll do that.

12 But where's the professional development and how

13 much do you actually need? Is it a one-shot deal?

14 Is it a two-shot deal? Is a session, a series of

15 three or four things? And how do you arrange the

16 day to make sure that you can have the teachers

17 available to do the professional development? And

18 what's the union's role in trying to contribute?

19 I mean, is there some flexibility that they can be

20 able to agree to? I mean, all these kinds of

21 things need to get worked out.

22 But that's where it takes people

23 to get a little bit more organized because, again,

24 that's why we're reaching out to people and saying

25 we need to grow more advocates. We need to really

Page 304



2 build a stronger collective voice. We need to --

3 I think Warren's exactly right, we need to figure

4 out how we're even saying it so that instead of me

5 talking for three minutes, I can just say the

6 right phrase and it will automatically register to

7 someone.

8 MS. CLARKE: Did you have

9 something to say?

10 MR. BROWN: Yes. My name is Tony

11 Brown, and I would like to say that I am a member

12 of Action United, which is the former ACORN.

13 But individuals are asking for a

14 location or a venue where they can express their

15 opinions and get training and find out more about

16 these events and the things in which they can do,

17 I would like to welcome them to our office, which

18 is 846 North Broad Street. We are continuing. We

19 have many educational options for parents, mostly

20 parents, because we're a parent-organized group,

21 but we collaborate with the two known student

22 groups here in Philadelphia, Youth Action for

23 Change and Philadelphia Student Union. We also

24 are a part of this Four Cities School Initiative

25 and the Effective Teachers Campaign.

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2 But at any time anyone knows any

3 parents -- I, personally, our office, makes two to

4 four state legislator and city council visits a

5 month. Everyone's welcome to come at any time.

6 We also have a national campaign

7 in which we're working on now for education in

8 which the focus is the opportune time, and we will

9 invite anyone to join and review our platforms and

10 see if you find it fitting.

11 We're talking about sustainable

12 school systems. As the young lady was asking, she

13 said we are old and there are different ideas, but

14 we have to collaborate with the youth and get the

15 youth's ideas. We also ask for teachers to be

16 more involved in the decision making as well as

17 especially in the community-based organizations.

18 So we will gladly take the lead

19 and focus on what you need. And anyone is welcome

20 on our website, www.unitedactionunited.org.

21 Although our name has changed and we are a new

22 corporation, we're doing some of the old things

23 and a lot of new things, so please come join us.

24 There's our website, and come to some of our

25 parent-teacher meetings and we'll have some

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2 interesting meetings. Thank you.

3 MS. CLARKE: What's the street

4 address again?

5 MR. BROWN: Broad Street. North

6 Broad Street.

7 MS. CLARKE: Thank you. The

8 gentleman right there.

9 MR. RUSHKIN: My name is Adewale

10 Rushkin (ph). I am a student at Rutgers Camden's

11 Law School, and I want to apologize because I'm

12 not going to offer a solution, but rather, present

13 another question.

14 (Laughter.)

15 MR. RUSHKIN: That's what happens

16 when you go to law school. I'm still in my

17 training phase, so excuse me.

18 One of the things that we started

19 with is the -- in the most devastated communities,

20 in the communities where you have high

21 unemployment rates and where you have drug abuse

22 and you have a lot of just specific family issues,

23 when we talk about civic engagement, you know, it

24 could mean different things, but when I think

25 about that, I really think about engaging the

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2 people on that base, on that level.

3 The parents of the children who

4 are, you know, third, fourth generation, you know,

5 high school dropouts, I still struggle with how do

6 we get those people to enter into the conversation

7 because when I think about this conversation, we

8 have a lot of educated people in this room who are

9 interested, who are also members of the community,

10 but I always envision these collective

11 conversations simply encompassing the type of

12 people who are in this room and never really

13 finding a way to incorporate those individuals and

14 their perspectives.

15 And even the broader question is:

16 Are those perspectives -- what can those

17 perspectives actually bring to the table of moving

18 forward? I'm not sure, but could anyone speak to

19 that?

20 MS. BROWN: Sure. I think that

21 you raised it correctly and made an important

22 point and I think it can be done. We've held

23 community conversations during sort of the heyday,

24 and we even went around the country and asked

25 parents, children and community members what they

Page 308



2 thought about "No Child Left Behind," what were

3 the implications for their communities. The focus

4 was: Was this work being heard?

5 And you have to address -- the

6 young lady earlier mentioned sort of the time --

7 it has to be in the evening, you have to provide

8 child care, you have to feed their kids. And

9 there are things we can do to make it easy for

10 parents to come out, but the value that you get is

11 incredibly important, because we've heard from

12 those folks things that we don't hear from

13 teachers or the administrators or folks that are

14 normally engaged in the conversation about how --

15 in this case, we were using "No Child Left Behind"

16 as the hook, but people raised every issue that

17 was of concern to them, whether or not it happened

18 to be tied to a federal law.

19 So there are ways to do it and I

20 think you, A, have to pay attention to how you do

21 it and how the facilitation is done, but it's a

22 very valuable thing to do and you can bring the

23 community together just thinking about what we

24 want, how we want our schools to look like.

25 MS. CLARKE: Michael.

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2 MR. ARMSTEAD: I'm sorry, one

3 second. I think it's also important, because many

4 of us in this room will find ourselves at tables

5 where parents and students are not, or just people

6 from disaffected communities are not there.

7 Right? And so one of the things that you and I,

8 we can do when we're in those meetings is hold

9 them up until they get people that can actually

10 speak for themselves at those tables.

11 I mean, because, again, part of it

12 is, like, again, like Warren was saying earlier,

13 we have 50 people in a room who have a certain

14 world view, it's very easy for them to come to an

15 agreement because they agree anyway. Right? And

16 so how do we get more people representing a

17 broader and more diverse view at the tables where

18 decisions are actually being made. And so if

19 you're at that table, that is your responsibility

20 since you're central to it to make sure to open

21 the door to get people in. Right? So there are

22 people from, you know, student organizing groups

23 or parent organizing groups that we know are out

24 there. How do we make sure that Action United is

25 at the table that I can be at today? Or the next

Page 310



2 meeting they need to be there. Youth United for

3 Change needs to be there, so they can speak for

4 themselves.

5 MS. CLARKE: Michael, and then

6 Warren, and we're going to stop.

7 MR. CHURCHILL: Well, I learned in

8 law school that you should never offer solutions

9 because they'll get shot down --

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. CHURCHILL: -- but I'm going

12 to violate that rule, and I'm going to start by

13 telling people, they may have missed it, but the

14 Inquirer today had an editorial about what needs

15 to be done for change to improve our schools, and

16 I misplaced my copy, but if I remember right, the

17 three things that they identify were firing

18 teachers, reconstructing schools, and high

19 standards, by which, I guess, they meant more

20 testing.

21 Now, that's what the opposition

22 looks like, and I think we need to make sure that

23 we are framing our work in terms of building a

24 constituency that understands that there are some

25 alternatives to that and what it is and no phrase

Page 311



2 will ever work to encompass everything. But I

3 would offer building professional capacity ought

4 to be our role, rather than destroying existing

5 relationships with teachers. That allows us to

6 talk about, when their building professional

7 capacity, training for respect that we've heard so

8 much about this morning and how it destroys kids

9 when it doesn't exist in schools. It allows us to

10 talk about the pedagogy that Bill raised and any

11 number of kinds of issues and the relationships of

12 trust and interpersonal relationships that you

13 need in schools.

14 You may come up with a better one,

15 but I want to offer the idea that we need to be

16 responsive to the political conditions that we're

17 in as we are engaging in this, and one place that

18 everybody might start is by taking a look at that

19 editorial and writing a response to it and begin

20 to start that dialog of whatever words you want,

21 but we shouldn't take that kind of stuff sitting

22 down.

23 MS. CLARKE: Okay. Warren.

24 DR. SIMMONS: We should not, by

25 any means, underestimate our power, as

Page 312



2 disorganized and underresourced as we are. I saw

3 a recent example of this, the Annenberg Institute

4 support of the attitude of a new coalition called

5 Community on Public Schools, and many local

6 organizations -- Boston, Philadelphia, New York,

7 and Oakland -- contributed to that effort, took

8 part in that effort. They developed, with our

9 support, a nice glossy publication.

10 They presented it to their local

11 government there, how their schools will perform,

12 the regular schools that existed, and then they

13 came up with a particular government's position

14 and, basically, said, you know, there are three

15 elements of sustainability that we want to get

16 behind. We want a strong focus on school

17 instruction, curriculum, culture, staffing. We

18 want wraparound supports for our students and more

19 collaborations to ensure local enrichment and

20 accountability. Three fundamental issues that I

21 don't think anybody in this room has discussed

22 getting into, but there's a lack of details.

23 But nonetheless, that coalition,

24 in Washington DC, in Congress, in the office

25 building, they had two national experts present,

Page 313



2 me and Linda Darling, they had members of Congress

3 show, the media showed up. And for at least a

4 week-and-a-half, I had people in the White House

5 calling me, I had members of the media calling me

6 and those people, and we had a series of articles

7 in the media challenging the administration's

8 position.

9 That's the kind of work that needs

10 to be sustained nationally and locally. And we

11 had the resources available to do that one event

12 and that one publication. We're not scrambling

13 because these guys aren't stupid. You know, make

14 sure that doesn't happen again, or maybe they'll

15 call up Linda and Warren.

16 But nonetheless, those are the

17 kinds -- so there's a coalition that exists and

18 we're part of it to inform that work. How do we

19 get that message down locally and how we can

20 change that through the upcoming opportunities

21 nationally, which are: School improvement grants

22 and how they're going to be used, how do we

23 monitor the limitations in Philadelphia and New

24 York and Boston and other places and report on it

25 locally and nationally? How do we inform a debate

Page 314



2 about the re-authorization of the Elementary and

3 Secondary Education Act? That's going to be on

4 the national radar screen, and we tie our local

5 efforts together and through the coalitions, make

6 them both national and local, and we're going to

7 have some people pay attention to us.

8 But it is going to, I think, take

9 this local, national conversation. And, also, we

10 have researchers who are going to have to get out

11 these complex messages, clarify them down to three

12 or four elements for my colleagues, and I

13 recommend that. But there are groups that are

14 forming coalitions. You are part of that

15 coalition, I would make that front and center, and

16 whether there are other events, we can adopt new

17 resources, organize to get -- and get the

18 attention, because these guys are real sensitive

19 and they seem to be more vulnerable than I think

20 they appear to be.

21 MS. CLARKE: So I'm not going

22 to ask you all to stand up --

23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I just want

24 to add to that. Based upon that presentation that

25 we did on July the 28th, the Senator requested

Page 315



2 that we return. So just this Monday we've had a

3 second visit with the Senate and we made a second

4 presentation concerning our national campaign.

5 I just want to add, before that,

6 an opportune time, this is the re-authorization

7 issue. So we can have all of these issues in two

8 policies and have it implemented at least to

9 reenact re-authorization. This is a great

10 opportunity for us all and a great time to have

11 more parents and communities involved in the

12 structure and the designs of these transitional

13 schools. Thank you.

14 MR. JOSEPH: Jenny, you asked if

15 you could run a tight ship and it's now about time

16 that we get there. So, first of all, thank you,

17 Jenny. Thank you, panelists. Can we have all the

18 panelists who are still here stand for one more

19 round of applause.

20 (Applause.)

21

22

23

24

25

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class 15:15 24:5,925:14,18,19 26:2,2330:16 68:21 81:3109:6 111:18120:21,25 126:16126:18,22 127:15139:10,15,15,16149:5 151:17 180:2213:8,23 214:23215:13 238:14,15272:2 273:19

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course 13:4 17:1120:21 25:8,17 26:1827:20 91:9,12100:15 103:10127:11 142:15164:6 219:23,24220:4,5 235:17236:17 237:21238:15,24 239:7241:23 244:15249:11 288:9292:19

courses 244:14court 1:13,22 4:2,10

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courtney 204:3205:13,14 230:12239:3,10

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11:10 12:8,10,11,1412:24 14:17,18,2014:25 15:7 16:14,1418:5,18,22 19:5,1019:11,12,18,18,2022:10,14,18,2123:11,12,15 25:926:5 28:10 30:5,1730:22,22 32:3 33:1734:9 35:24 36:5,1536:23,25 37:2,12,1637:18,20,20,2138:22 39:7 41:9,2343:18 44:3,7,8,2545:6 47:9 48:1849:22 51:9,12,1852:2,8,11 59:1961:12,12,15,17,1862:11 64:19 66:767:2,4,5,7,8,10 68:970:15 71:9 72:11,1372:16 74:9 76:1177:10,11 78:6 81:482:8,21 86:5,9,1386:14,24 87:8,16

88:6,8 89:20 90:2291:6,10 92:17 93:2194:7,21,22 95:297:22 100:2,19101:16 103:4 105:6107:6 109:11111:13,22,24 112:8112:11,12 113:15113:18 114:20115:4 116:17119:17 124:7126:14,17 127:6,11128:18,20,20 129:3129:4,6,7 131:15135:24 136:2,5137:9 138:8,19139:10,11,22,25140:4,7,15 143:15144:3 145:3,4,8146:23,24 147:2,7,7147:9 149:14150:23 151:17152:12 153:6,20154:9,21 158:3160:9 162:4 165:22166:5 170:17,18,20170:20 171:21,22176:7,7,8 178:3,11178:13 179:5,15,24181:12,21,22184:15 187:8,24188:11 191:5,17196:5,21 198:14199:21 203:8,16,19203:24 204:5,9,19204:23,24 205:5,18205:24 206:4,13,16206:22,24 207:16207:19 208:18,22208:25 210:13,15210:20 211:7,16212:3,13,14,16,16212:18,18 213:6,14213:25 214:5,7,14214:15,16,20,25

215:2,3,11,12,16,18215:24,25 216:3,6216:11,12,20217:13,18 218:4,10218:13,16,16,17,19218:19 219:5221:21 222:20223:19,24 224:6225:4,25 226:8228:17,25 229:3,13229:14,19 230:8,11230:22,25 231:4,6,8231:10,13,23,25232:4,8,12,23 233:7234:9,22,24 236:10236:12,14,16 238:7238:13,16,19,20239:13,20,22 240:2240:20,20 241:9,10242:2,8,18 243:2,7243:10,19 244:2,4244:16,24,24245:25 246:2,4247:13,17 248:2,19249:6,7,8 250:11,23251:2,4 252:4,5254:4,11,22 255:3255:25 256:6 257:2257:13,20 258:17258:22 260:15262:11 263:11,13265:22 266:12,16266:17 267:8,10268:15 269:7,16,18270:6,18,21,22,23271:7 272:5 275:18275:23 276:3277:20,22 278:8279:6,8 280:18,19280:21 283:14,16284:24 287:7,16288:11 291:22293:20 294:5 296:9297:10 298:18,22299:9 301:25

305:24 306:12307:11,16 308:5311:8 313:16314:21

school's 47:25 70:8208:5 239:6

schooling 8:19 13:522:16 33:22 66:5105:13

schools 3:4,5,19,213:22 5:18,20 10:2012:14,17,20,21,2313:5,24,25 14:215:3,8,13,18,21,2316:6 17:2 18:2 19:221:5,19 23:6 26:7,928:14 29:22 30:6,1831:15,18,25 35:1435:22 36:20 37:541:6,12,19 42:3,3,742:9,14,17,18,19,2042:24,25 43:9,15,1644:8,16,20 45:14,1645:24 46:12 47:6,1347:14,16,17 48:1249:6,8,12,12,1750:2,4,7,9,11,20,2351:3 52:4,5 53:7,853:18 54:4,10,13,1754:20 55:7,10,11,1655:19,20 56:8,11,1256:17 57:4,4,5,1158:5,25 59:11,13,1559:21,25 60:2,8,1060:22,25 62:12,1463:17,19,22,25 64:264:3,4,21,23 65:266:2 67:19 68:5,1268:14,18 70:21,2571:18,19,20 72:9,1076:14 82:3,10 85:385:5 86:19 87:1989:9 90:11 91:2592:12 93:4,11,13,1693:22,23 94:2,9,21

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95:4,5,5,24 96:797:10 99:2 102:23103:20,20 104:4105:10 113:19116:18 122:22128:16 130:2 132:6132:19 135:4 138:2138:5 141:16,17143:7,17,19 147:6148:7,14 150:18151:3 152:24 160:2163:10,10,11,12164:11 165:23166:7,9,14,17,18168:16,18,19,20,21168:22 169:8,8,17169:23 170:3,17171:2,18,24,24172:13,13,18,21,24172:25 173:7,12,14173:15 174:3,18175:9 177:24 178:4178:7,13,23 179:21180:14 181:23,25183:12,15 184:4,7185:2,3,18 186:17187:11,13,20 191:8193:6,10 195:11,25197:24 203:17,25206:6 207:24,25208:3,7,21 209:21218:12 219:4,12,21220:9 222:4 223:16223:21,22 224:10225:12 226:14227:18,19 228:10228:12 231:20235:7,10,14,16,19235:22,24 236:17237:6 239:10,11,19239:25 240:16,18240:18 242:10,16245:17,22 246:20247:3,7,8,9,10,14,15248:5,12 249:13,25

250:4,16,20 251:18251:22 252:4,8255:17,23 256:25257:22 258:7,12260:5 261:8,14262:24 263:6,18264:9 266:20267:17 268:16270:6,16,17,24271:3,5 272:10,24273:2,3,7,11,14,17276:7,21,23 278:2278:14 279:18280:5,10,11 281:8,9282:2,12 283:9298:14 299:6,16,17302:13 303:13309:24 311:15,18312:9,13 313:5,11313:12 316:13

schoolteacher 266:9science 20:4,7 24:5

24:9 25:14 53:15100:5 128:22 172:6286:2,4

sciences 40:12scissors 220:11scope 15:16score 48:5 50:16

78:19 101:5 180:11282:5

scores 40:7 47:379:4 81:23,25 82:983:18,22,25 84:6,984:13,15,23 94:399:22 101:12,15102:6 105:10123:24 198:10237:10 262:22,23

scoring 271:13scrambling 314:12screaming 89:22screen 116:2 315:4scripted 71:20

scripts 20:19scs 55:5,6,15se 141:7search 41:10,10seat 175:25 176:14

256:11seats 176:17 250:20sebring 35:18 38:19

38:22 60:16,1861:23 62:17 63:1664:25 74:18,2194:11,18 101:10102:4,13 156:15

sebring's 157:3second 8:3 9:2 17:5

17:20 22:20 25:1539:9 62:25 65:2373:3 78:23 104:22119:9 125:12,25153:8 156:19,24175:14 180:4246:13 255:21256:5,9 263:8271:11,12,16 276:4276:24 310:3 316:3316:3

secondary 31:2236:23 315:3

secondly 47:25155:7 188:24

seconds 96:10 228:6271:20

secrets 242:24,24section 42:4 66:11

78:14sections 165:21sector 188:17,25sectors 281:13secure 303:7security 213:14,20

214:14 217:6218:16,17 246:7,10267:8,17,19,25271:3,6,9

seduced 105:16see 11:8 16:9,25

17:3 18:12 19:732:25 39:11 42:1444:8 47:20,23 48:548:11 49:14,22,2552:13 54:16,2055:12 56:18,24,2557:21 58:3 59:1661:20 62:12,13 67:968:20 69:6 82:988:5,21 90:3 109:23111:22 113:4,24116:14,23 117:4118:20 119:21123:19 124:15135:17 137:12142:6 151:19154:23 169:15175:10 180:23190:6 192:2,2193:23 199:19202:18 216:23220:7,12,14 230:24236:2,24,25 238:10240:14 243:4246:19 247:6,23248:4 258:14,24264:14 265:11267:3 285:24286:17 287:24294:14,18 306:10

seeing 12:15 67:1867:20 236:14,15237:4,4,6 238:20,22247:7 261:14

seen 2:21 19:2432:17 70:14 119:10119:11,12,14,17120:4,5,5 128:14145:12 159:8169:17 174:14175:15 181:4,17186:14 196:7219:17 261:8

[schools - seen] Page 366


268:13 269:20sees 61:13segregate 125:3

130:7segregated 111:15

121:16 130:18,19141:17 150:14152:7 153:25 154:2

segregating 141:12150:5

segregation 119:21121:8 130:4,6150:11

segue 107:21seil 99:7,14 100:13

100:16selection 15:8self 135:15 272:3

281:24semester 127:10seminar 127:12seminars 7:16senate 316:3senator 31:23

315:25senators 265:21send 281:2sending 266:19senior 35:25 39:19

39:21 40:3,9 274:25sense 21:3 22:9

23:16 45:4 53:1469:12 96:13,14105:11 167:18179:7 199:13 299:9301:8

sensitive 315:18sent 80:2 126:13

223:6 246:4 247:24248:7,8,9,10 249:9249:12,14,14,16250:7 258:13

separate 4:19 16:11109:6 113:8 126:3128:11 129:13

271:23 272:20separated 126:8september 1:8 2:1

3:1 4:1 5:1 6:1 7:18:1 9:1 10:1 11:112:1 13:1 14:1 15:116:1 17:1 18:1 19:120:1 21:1 22:1 23:124:1 25:1 26:1 27:128:1 29:1 30:1 31:132:1 33:1 34:1 35:136:1 37:1 38:1 39:140:1 41:1 42:1 43:144:1 45:1 46:1 47:148:1 49:1 50:1 51:152:1 53:1 54:1 55:156:1 57:1 58:1 59:160:1 61:1 62:1 63:164:1 65:1 66:1 67:168:1 69:1 70:1 71:172:1 73:1 74:1 75:176:1 77:1 78:1 79:180:1 81:1 82:1 83:184:1 85:1 86:1 87:188:1 89:1 90:1 91:192:1 93:1 94:1 95:196:1 97:1 98:1 99:1100:1 101:1 102:1103:1 104:1 105:1106:1 107:1 108:1109:1 110:1 111:1111:16 112:1 113:1114:1 115:1 116:1117:1 118:1 119:1120:1 121:1 122:1123:1 124:1 125:1126:1 127:1 128:1129:1 130:1 131:1132:1 133:1 134:1135:1 136:1 137:1138:1 139:1 140:1141:1 142:1 143:1144:1 145:1 146:1147:1 148:1 149:1150:1 151:1 152:1

153:1 154:1 155:1156:1 157:1 158:1159:1 160:1 161:1162:1 163:1 164:1165:1 166:1 167:1168:1 169:1 170:1171:1 172:1 173:1174:1 175:1 176:1177:1 178:1 179:1180:1 181:1 182:1183:1 184:1 185:1186:1 187:1 188:1189:1 190:1 191:1192:1 193:1 194:1195:1 196:1 197:1198:1 199:1 200:1201:1 202:1 203:1204:1 205:1 206:1207:1 208:1 209:1210:1 211:1 212:1213:1 214:1 215:1216:1 217:1 218:1219:1 220:1 221:1222:1 223:1 224:1225:1 226:1 227:1228:1 229:1 230:1231:1 232:1 233:1234:1 235:1 236:1237:1 238:1 239:1240:1 241:1 242:1243:1 244:1 245:1246:1 247:1 248:1249:1 250:1 251:1252:1 253:1 254:1255:1 256:1 257:1258:1 259:1 260:1261:1 262:1 263:1264:1 265:1 266:1267:1 268:1 269:1270:1 271:1 272:1273:1 274:1 275:1276:1 277:1 278:1279:1 280:1 281:1282:1 283:1 284:1285:1 286:1 287:1

288:1 289:1 290:1291:1 292:1 293:1294:1 295:1 296:1297:1 298:1 299:1300:1 301:1 302:1303:1 304:1 305:1306:1 307:1 308:1309:1 310:1 311:1312:1 313:1 314:1315:1 316:1

series 127:13 224:20259:19 304:14314:6

serious 90:9 155:4155:19 159:16210:23 220:3,7256:24 271:19

seriously 199:7240:3

serve 175:8served 36:25 183:6service 18:24 269:17

298:10services 111:16

154:2,4 251:13257:19 260:22283:13

servicing 59:22serving 82:6 108:6

131:19 174:3session 106:20

124:16 156:11,14156:15 202:21,23203:3 304:14

sessions 202:13set 8:3,18 22:12

40:20 59:8 70:1871:21 113:22 161:9162:8 165:18167:21,23 169:11169:22 173:6179:17 181:8182:16 183:11188:20 189:3192:15 194:5,5

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216:16 228:17,22274:16 275:4 281:3

setbacks 34:18sets 186:8 271:10setters 167:14,14setting 150:14 160:9

161:10,17 229:6276:21

settings 116:20117:25 229:13

settlement 115:22116:7,21 118:24

setup 216:14seven 42:8,18,21

48:7 49:15 53:455:7 74:8,8 84:20147:10 231:2 266:3271:15 274:3

seventh 241:18265:23

severe 237:23severely 250:10

266:2sex 98:19,21sexual 225:14shaded 54:14shame 185:12shape 66:8 71:22

293:14shaping 28:4shapiro 204:3

205:19 228:6230:14 239:15240:5 250:14255:13

share 38:11 167:6172:12 224:25225:5 226:10

shared 40:25sharing 226:24shave 202:12sheets 278:5sheila 295:16shelves 40:20

shift 102:24 151:21236:15,19

shifting 191:20ship 184:9 316:15shipped 265:25shock 238:8short 65:19 299:25shot 89:10 205:3

304:13,14 311:9shoved 214:12show 50:13 61:16

66:6 111:10 118:15133:6 159:8 180:2204:22 220:5249:22 293:4 314:3

showed 102:3211:15 314:3

showing 64:19shown 17:20 218:14shows 42:17,19 49:8

52:7,22,23 54:12,1959:20 61:23 63:1763:17,24 64:5,884:19 114:15125:22 138:4150:12 151:7177:10 196:24205:17 218:21,23231:8 273:21

shuddering 249:19sic 66:2sick 214:23side 19:19 26:4

28:22 29:2,3,554:21,21 56:24,2563:25 66:17,19 73:6103:13 188:3,3243:22 245:19288:12

sidekicks 139:23,24sign 265:24signed 118:24significant 53:10

136:22 140:4,8161:4 222:16

287:25 288:13significantly 133:10silent 163:21 166:18

166:20,21 168:15170:16 172:19

silos 301:12silver 31:17 244:19similar 6:12 49:25

60:6 75:6 283:6291:12

similarity 253:15similarly 36:24

272:25simmons 108:18

127:11 157:16158:2,11,18,22,25159:3,6 174:13179:20 182:11187:18 194:13195:6 197:9,13,19197:23 199:4,18200:23 201:2202:24 203:4254:13 312:24

simmons's 274:18simple 66:25 71:13simply 25:2 95:16

97:17 98:24 126:7170:17 191:7198:22 231:9294:15 308:11

simulated 119:25simultaneously

134:3singapore 185:10single 14:12 18:9

37:17 57:2 61:12,1280:15 100:23 223:3

sit 95:8 139:25200:6 215:17256:10

site 226:14sites 129:14sits 40:19,19

sitting 28:21 89:14136:12 263:13264:22 312:21

situation 3:20 23:1732:10 227:14

situations 234:7253:3 297:3

six 7:20 62:8 71:996:10 147:9 152:9155:10 185:14229:12 233:19292:22 300:8

sixing 119:5sixth 210:8,12,18,22size 25:18,19 52:6

143:15 187:6,24213:24 297:11

sizes 26:2,5skepticism 79:12skiba 237:17 272:23skiba's 237:18skills 31:11,15 33:4

110:23skin 133:9skip 54:24 60:19

62:24slam 199:4slashed 261:10slate 282:19slavery 137:23slide 42:12 111:6

112:6,23,24 114:7114:13,16,17,18,24114:25 115:5,6117:22 210:10211:3 233:21 240:6

slides 47:20 48:11159:7,9 182:7

slightly 65:6 77:24142:2 216:12260:25

slogan 79:14slowly 4:14slows 167:12

[set - slows] Page 368


slug 182:2small 18:7 26:2,9

49:14 81:4 86:19,2490:4 93:15 127:19128:18 180:12187:20 193:5,10,17195:25 215:20,22268:14

smaller 3:5smart 24:10 76:2

79:3smith 6:6,6snapshots 206:11

209:25sneak 88:5soap 285:13sobering 54:5sobol 103:3social 18:24 31:11

31:15 51:19 54:857:13,17,17 58:7,1158:15,15 59:7,1863:20 100:6 148:6167:2 175:23 176:5176:20 177:23185:11,16 189:12191:14 218:20257:19 269:17

socially 109:25123:16

societal 97:23society 86:10 105:8sociologist 47:8sociologists 57:14soft 259:25software 24:10,11solely 167:4 189:4solution 184:7,11

225:7 228:3 269:25307:12

solutions 41:1171:21 255:18274:17 311:8

solved 90:12

somebody 75:19154:20 169:21197:15 207:3284:17 299:19,19300:16 301:5

someplace 35:4something's 82:11

82:11 207:24 229:6229:13

somewhat 28:2139:12 83:10 100:4177:19 302:10

son 61:20 87:11150:18 246:4

sonya 106:21,25139:3 249:20

soon 216:17sophisticated

128:10 130:8sorry 59:10 60:5

100:13 104:20111:23 217:25223:17 310:2

sort 11:25 12:5 13:413:7,20 14:8,1517:6 21:14 38:1778:14 112:20143:14 172:15,19184:15 207:25208:19 209:18218:3,21 220:16223:20 225:18,21227:22 229:4,8230:16,20 232:4235:2 236:6 237:2240:7 242:23245:13,13 258:15258:17 259:18260:3,24 269:24272:3 273:17275:20 276:11,19279:2 280:19 281:3281:24 293:7,11,21303:24 308:23309:6

sorts 46:22 281:19286:5

sound 83:11 300:10sounded 194:17sounds 143:22

221:11source 6:5 160:5,7sources 285:2south 4:6 54:21

187:11 203:16southeastern 268:18space 292:8span 172:3 233:19spans 167:16speak 83:20 84:18

99:11 121:10135:20 154:5160:15,23 166:11181:3 205:21268:10 290:7296:15,15,16308:18 310:10311:3

speaker 63:5,1199:10 125:7 136:14150:4,15 153:17154:18 157:14197:7,12 199:2,16246:16 264:21267:5 295:17298:24 315:23

speakers 17:12143:6 156:20197:18

speaking 82:23226:19 237:21265:19,20 275:20301:12

special 12:21 14:1033:20 107:12,23,24107:25 108:3,14109:25 110:6,10,25111:7,9 113:6,7,17113:23 114:21,23115:3 121:16

122:14,14,25 123:2123:6,12 124:11,19125:24 126:15127:6,9,25 128:2,5130:5,20 132:14137:7,10,16 138:16146:2,3,19 149:11150:6,7,8,18,23151:2 152:4,6,8153:21 154:3,4,15155:10 233:13250:17,24 251:3,4

specialize 109:16specific 25:7 116:13

225:8 300:23307:22

specifically 131:12251:10

spectacular 157:17speeches 8:4speed 4:14,15

240:19spell 29:20 298:22spencer 133:9spend 23:21 53:2

74:3 137:10 159:18160:9,17 167:9219:8 261:11287:20 291:8

spending 138:13218:3,15 219:4,6257:25

spent 30:14 137:9137:16 138:5,6,18142:16 191:2192:22 216:8224:16

spewed 212:21spin 68:17spoke 96:21 302:19sponsored 2:3 31:24spot 152:18spread 15:23spring 111:13 112:9

172:20 302:13

[slug - spring] Page 369


square 213:24 214:3st 158:13stability 96:21stable 96:18staff 2:7,8 28:17

44:11,25 45:7 88:12106:24 112:19127:14 137:12138:16 157:13,20203:21 247:16254:23

staffing 165:22313:17

stage 8:18 274:16275:4

stages 255:19256:14

stagnant 94:10177:11

stagnated 56:17,2057:5

stagnating 54:19stagnation 47:22

48:13 56:25stake 196:19stakeholder 276:10stakeholders 131:7

148:5 285:21 289:5stakes 237:2,8

244:12stand 27:2 201:24

213:21,24 217:22289:10 315:22316:18

standard 10:6,1922:2 30:2 32:18,2333:8 38:3,5 117:2136:5 280:20

standardized 20:20100:23 161:8

standards 10:1419:21 20:6,11,14,2121:2,7,12,22 23:3,623:7,10,13 24:3,2325:12 26:17 41:3

96:16 158:11161:17 162:23163:5,7,8,17 165:20169:11,12,13,15173:7,14 177:14184:16 189:8,11,14196:3 311:19

standing 82:16215:13

standpoint 167:4standpoints 135:15stanford 38:9star 25:24stark 15:17 166:22start 9:2 12:9 25:5

43:15,23 66:2477:22 81:10 85:2391:4 97:23 99:6111:2 115:24 146:9183:19,24 202:21204:17 205:13211:17 232:10,11234:10,16 271:14290:15 311:12312:18,20

started 6:4 23:331:3,3 40:17,1746:7 48:3 50:1679:9,11 89:18 115:6115:14 152:3156:21 196:5 202:8214:21 264:24307:18

starting 164:24171:12 253:4282:18

starts 258:5 259:15265:6 297:8

state 5:5,11,15 6:59:16,19 10:13 11:311:7 16:24 18:17,2119:25 20:2,5 21:1722:23 30:11 39:669:20 84:3 85:8102:24 103:20,21

104:13 107:19110:18 114:22120:4 122:20124:24 137:15141:24 142:14161:2 162:4,19164:13 165:11,12176:4,6,6,15 186:5189:18 205:3219:20 240:9244:13,15 246:23252:8 256:23257:16 262:22286:14,14,18 306:4

state's 164:4stated 302:17statement 46:4

299:25statements 72:5states 5:21 9:8 10:3

25:18,24 68:3 69:769:8 92:23 141:13142:2,15 155:24,25161:5 166:3,6,20175:25 176:16277:6

statistic 100:17116:11 141:14

statistics 47:8 58:10115:22 116:23141:7 143:2 217:12217:16 218:5 253:2

statute 23:19 33:13219:20,25

statutes 7:2 11:930:15 33:16,2135:15

stay 91:14 179:24205:5 214:4 218:13

stayed 9:15 42:1043:2 246:7

staying 156:10179:25

stays 9:4

stepped 214:3steps 92:6 134:19

253:5 281:21stereotypes 155:20steven 269:14stick 13:7 264:8sticking 106:13

149:21stickler 106:19stifle 145:14stigmatize 119:23stimulated 43:3stimulating 90:15stimulus 69:4stop 6:16 9:17 34:6

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