Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 20 OCTOBER 1925

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

13i8 Land Tax Act, Etc., Bill. rASSEMBLY.] Industrial A1·bitration, Etc., Bill.

TUESDAY, 20 OCTOBER, 1925.

The SPEAKER (Hon. \V. Bertram, J1arue) took the chair at 10.30 a.m.

APPROPRIATION BII,L. No. 2.

AssEl'IT.

The SPEAKER: I have to report that I have presented to lclls Excellency the Deputy Gowrnor Appropriation Bill No. 2, for the' Royal assent. and that I-Iis Excel­lency wns p1C>a~'2d, in my presence, t·O sub­scribe his n~s0nt t1H:-roto in tho name an::-1 on bPhalf of lJi,, Majesty.

A me,;';:ag-(~ \Ya:::. also received from :h~~ Deputy Gc··~crnor conveying I-Iis Excellency's asscut to the Bill.

QUESTION.

LIGHT RAILWAY Lr:<:E TO Brl'IJ01:R PLATEA"C.

Mr. CORSER (Burnett) asked the Secre­tary for Railways-

111 " \Y ill he take the ncc0ssau action to prm·ide for a light line to t-he' Binjour Plate;~u to serve the !3ugar interests and plotnnte the general development of that are~t."

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. J. Larcombe. Ecppd): replied-

.. Ko can be taken at the present, tirne, but n1attf'l' \Yill receive care-ful considc:rntioa later.;'

PAPER. The followin(]' paper was laid on the table,

and or,-tred to be printed:-:\iuth ~··~nnual of the State Go-

Oflice for the 30th J unc, 1925.

\'\ORKERS' cn~TPE::\'S_\TIO:\ :\CTS A:'>rE:\D::\IE:\T BILL.

THIRD RE.\DIXG.

Hox. T. DuNSTA:\1 (G.:nnzJic): I beg to n1o·.·o-

" That· the Bill be nm• read a third t!n1c.''

Que, rion p1.:t and pa~.~cd.

C'A 1R::\'S. IPSWICH. "'..:\D TOOWOmiBA Fl:~BUC L.\::\'D MORTGAGES BILL.

THIRD RK\DIXG.

Ti,, SECRETARY FOR FCRLIC LANDS (IInn. \\'. J\IcCormack, Cairns): I beg to !DO\"t__'--

" Tlu t· the Bill be now read a third tirrw.''

Qn, ..:J ion pnt and pa ;;;eel.

LAKD TAX ACT Al\1END::\IENT BILL.

THIRD READING.

The TRK.\S"CRER (Hon. \V. N. Gillies, E({clwm): I beg to move-

" That- the Bill be now read a third time."

Question put and passed.

[Mr. J{elso.

TOWNSVILLE BRIDGES BILL. THIRD READING.

The TREASURER (Hon. \V. X Gillies, Euclv11n): I beg to lllove-

,, That- the Bill be now read a third time."

C~uestion put and passed.

I:\C0::\1E TAX REGrLATIOKS RATIFI­CATION BILL.

THIRD READING.

The TREASURER (Hon. \V. K Gillies, E•1clwm): I beg to mo\'e-

" That. the Bill be now road a third tin1e.''

:\Ir. KELSO (:Yundah): I beg to move th•: following amendment:-

" Omit all the words after the word­' the'

and insert tho \vor.Js-' Order of the Day be discharged, and the Bill be recommitted for t.hc pur­pose of adding the following clause:-

3. Kat withstanding anything con­tained in this Act it shall be lawful for any person to n:-a.li:e out the return of a taxpayer, provJdcd-

(a) Th-, return is signrd b;c the taxpayer;

(b) No fee is charged for the ,-ark; (c) )Jo return shall be ma·ae out

by a person whose nnployor or .l~in1-self has contravened the prons1ons. of the Act.' "

On the second reading of this Bill this matter as reJcrred 1o. It rnay bo said, of cour~e.

that the regulation- in the Bill cannot· be auended by us. \Ye kno\\' that, in the ordinary course of events. a. regulation has to lie on the table of the House fot a certain tinw. after which, if no action is taken, it has the forcn of lc·w; bl!t in this particular coo" a Bill is introrlnred which incorporates the regu1at.ion:3, \vhlch becon1c law on the pas~<Jgc of the ITtC:F-:.Ire. I p,ubn1it that "\Ve

haYc a perfect rig-ht in those circurnstance.~ to amend those regl!lations. \vhich are put in tiH' form of a Dill, and that i, the reason \Yhy I propose that t-his new clause should be added to tho Bill. ·when the matter \Ya;;- being dl~cusM~d in Comr:nittcc, O\ving to mv rigid adherence to thP Standing Orders and bci~p; calL·d to onler by the Chairman. I nnfortunatcly Ini''·~ed n1y opportunit~,~ t") nwvc Clansc 3. and I "'.YOu1d rhereforc ask rhe I-Icu'e to give permission to have the Rill recommitterl. so that I mnv have th'J opportunity in Committee. "

The SPF;AKER : I am afraid that I can­not g-ive the hon. member that opportunity. fiad I had his proposer! amendnxnt carlict, I \Yonld probably hrwe intimated to th,? hou. memlwr that I would have to rule it out of order, the reason being that the Bill <imply ratifle~ tho rcgnlations. I an1 ~01-r~· th:tt I 1nust no\v rule the amcndt11ent out of order.

Qnestion-That the Bill b·, now read a third time--put and passed.

L'\DUSTRIAL ARBITRATIO:-; A.CT Al\1E~DME:\T BILL.

SECO)!D READING.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. M .. J. Kirwan. Brisbanr) (who. on rising, was greeted with Government cheers),

Industrial Arbitration [20 OcToBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1379

said : In moving the second reading of this Bill I rc>alise, as hon. members will agree, irrespective of their views regarding the merits or demerits of the Bill, that this is a very important piece of legislation. Before proceeding to deal ·with the Bill I desire to make some preliminary remarks dc:tling with the general attitude ahvays assumed by tho Press to'\\ards an}- legislation introduced by a Labour Government. The samo hostilitv is evinced towards this measure as ha's characterised the reception of all measures introduced by a Labour Government. whether i11 the Federal arena or in the State Parlia­rrlcnt. rrhis morning, the " Courier" in a leading article on this Bill, states-

" 'l'he Arbitration Court. as \H' now know it., \Vas raised to a })innacle of lfreat public respect bv the late Chief Justice M cC a whly, who was President of the Court; but the union lc1ders ha Ye decided that it must bn abolished, a:1d so 1he Government proposes to set up in its place a Board of Trade aud Arbi, tration to be presided over bv a judge of the Supreme Court and· t>1 o lay members, one of whom will probably be a member of the present Cabinet and the other a promin•,nt industrialiet. It is an ad!ni.::sion, not that arbitration has failed, but that the Government has surrendered once more to militant agitators, and is cra,,~enly carr~ving out the orders that it has received."

I rh'sire to call attention to the statemEnt in the beginning of this paragraph, \\·here the " Courier" makes the remarkable admission now that the Arbitration Court " v,·as rais,:d to a. pinnacle of great public respect by the lat,, Chief Justice.'' \Ve can all recollect \'hen, following on the passage of the Industrial Arbit..ation Act of 1916, Cabinet in its wisdom selected the late Chief Justice as President of that court. \Ye can all recall the howl of indignation as the result of that appointment.

Mr. KERR: \'.'hy anticipate?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC ·woRKS: \Vc can also recall the treatment that was nwted out to that gentleman bv leading n.ernbers of the judiciary. UnfortunatelY, it vas not until his untimclv de cth that ,~e find the same indi1·iduals wlio denounced tho appointment and criticised Judg-e 'iVIcCawley's capacity and ability to deal \~ith the duties of the high and responsible office to which he had beer: appointed: admitting oyer his rr:ortal r~I1_1a1ns that he was a n1.an of excep­honal atJJl!ty and lutd rendered signal service in his higl1 position. Kow th~ Brisbane "Com·ict·" belatedly discoYcrs that he had raised the Arbitration Court io " a pinnacle of great public n'S]Wct." l have no doubt that possibly in ten years' time, when another Cabinet secs fit to altc·r the arbitration system to il!1proYc and bring it up to date. the Bnshanc "Courier " ·will attack thr·m bectus8 they arc altering a s~·st.nn; and no doubt it will then pa:c the same tnbut~ of respect to the gentlemen who will compnse the now Board of Trade and :\rbi­tration as the·· now pay to the late Chief Justice 1\fcCawley. The old statement that the Cabinet ancl this pa rtv have been forced to introduce this le"isla'tion because they have been instructed o to do eo bv militant agitators has again been 11sed, but it is all pure bunkum. This is but another illus­tr,;tion where the want of onlinarv care has not been exercised in making s'uch state­ments.

It will not be out of place if, before I proceed to deal with the principl~s of the Bill, I briefly and somewhat hurriedly trace the rise and progre·'s of arbitration through its various phases.

Mr. XoTT: And its fall.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: The hon. gentlE'rnan has interjected some­thing about its fall. If such a thing were an actuality, thC' ho~annas of praise and joy that would have been uttered bv hon. mem­bers opposite would have been 8'o great that we would haYe heard more about it. Hon. members opposite have persistently opposed arbitration.

OPPOSITION l\1E:liBERS: We have not.

The SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I should at least say that hon. members opposite belong to a political party \vhose political rcpresentatiYcs have persist ntly opposed arbitntion.

}1r. :.:oTT: Your Cabinet has fail~cl to uphold it.

An 0PPOSITIOX :\IE~IBER : You do not believe in it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: The late Chief Justice l\lcCawlev, who was al-a Prc ideM of the Arbitration 'court. in a ::;erie~ of interesting lC>ctnres to the Students o~ the Queensland lJniyer.•ity, gave a historical reYiC'w of the different s· stems of arbitration nnt onlY in the Dominion of :New Zealand, but in "the various States of the Common­wealth of Australia, and dealt with crrch at considerable length. Here 1s an extract from that review-

" Deforo 1890, the attitude of Austra­lian ParliamentS t,o industrial dispute.;; ·,,·as one, if not of apathy, at. least of non-interference. Union·,., at first ignored, ,,nd then regarded as illegal associations, had been legalised and industrial organi­'ations had proceeded apace. 'With the g-rovdh and affiliation of em1)loyers' Or~ani:;ations and C?lDployees' organisa~ tions it was ineYit-::.blc that industrial onflict, c,hould extend in area and

senrit•,·, but the desirabilit,- of Shtc interfcrt"nce was not rl'Cobnised."

As a mntter of fact. the [irst semblance of publiC' opinion taking a l :)ncrete forrn in the diu"\ction of proYiding- th0 ncccssar~· l~gis­lation to minimise the possibilities of 1he outbreak of industrial conflict", and, if thee:-· did take piace, to encleayour to settle them with the least possible deJa;,- and loss not orJy h tho contE'nding parties but to the State, w.1s after the great. maritime strik0 in 1890, nncl tha shearers' strike of the fol!fJw­int!' .~ "'ar. Provion~ to that time, RS indi­cated by tho late Chief ,Jnstice, the Govc:rn­mcnt simpl;,· took up tho part of tlw ordinary policeman. Thev held it \,'a,; •1ot thc'ir clut7 to iro.terfere or to us:' their power and influence as a Government to bring the contending parties together. The·~· eon­sirlerod that their duties were fulfJ!kd. and tlw t their obligations to all concerned wc-r0 fulfilled, when the::' prcsen-ed \vhat in those davs was called law and order. The late Ri.rrht Honourable Charlres Kirwston \\'as the first Anstralian strrtesma!I-he might corL,•tly bn clescribNl as a radical in his dac· bv virtue of his advanced views-to mak<? a definite statement in Parliament in fayour of the introduction of a, measure for the scttlemPnt of industrial disputes.

Hon. 111. J. Kirwan.]

1380 Industrial Arbitration .[ASSEl\IBL Y.] Act Amendment Bill.

SpP ''illg in 1890, '" rc"orded on page 1742 of tlH_· ;-)outh ~-\1.16tl'alian ·· }lansurd,') he said~

ould be a :;ood thing indeed if the took proper stpp;; ±or tlw pur-

conll)el\ing partic.s to indu~trial to refer thei1· diffPrC'nc·c·s to a in y;hom the pub!i,; had confi-

dencc."

of rit,ht' of

r,gard ao the

ts o;~ the ('OilllJ!l_tnitY

CCL.llcction with industrial disputes. 1: } .... nl~o apropos in conncrtion \Yith this

very in1}1ortant question to quote a clause from a Bili introduced into this llou'c bv tlle late Sit Samnel \Valker Griffith. That·· Bill was introdncccl in 1390 and it laid clown " The Natur<d Law Relating to the Acquisition of Propert~·.'' Perhaps Sir S. \Y. Grif!ith may clain1 the honour of being the ftrst legislator to la~- down the principle of a living wage. In clau't· 21 of that Dill \Ye find these '\VOl'<_b~

.. The natural and propPr n-.e-asure of IYau:."'"· is such a stun as i::; fair in1nrediate rccomjlenso for the labour for which rhey are p:1id. having regard to it~ f'l1~n·-:cter and duration; but it can never bl' Ltkcn at a less -~urn than ~nch as is ~nflif'iPnt to rnai11tain the labourer and hi' family in a state of he,clth and rcaSOlla b le CDlnfort. n

Clause 28 of the Dill prO\·idcd-, It is the cl ut; of the State t-o make

proYision by poSitive la1y for 5ecuring the proper distribution of the m,t nro­Jnc1~ of labour in accordance with th 'ir principles hereby cleclarccl.'

Tha1 Bill was introduced bv Sir S. \Y. Griftith during· the regime of ~" Go,·cnnnl'~lt of which he .,, as not. the leader--

~Ir. ::\OTT: Thirty-five years ago.

The SEC'RETATIY FOR PCBLIC \YOHKS: and it only show5 1vhat political t·rog-

occupy the Opposition benches had 1hni)C g·eutk':nc'n o[ cut-

HS ::.LdCSH1Pl1 the of a livi~1g \Yagc \;.-a:·;

f' l~CYW have the· ::;;ncctnclc npposit<• nnd ~

part:- 1n dw FcdcTal a.rcna thf' ~hipo\\-ncrs, 1,d1o rofu~'2 to biYe u \Y<:H.!"E' tlw n1en ''rho rn.an their tal~(, across thl' ocC'atL

laughtPr.) 1-tli'. -:-.~o!·-:;:": 1:-ou fell dcnvn on your job. IHr. C ,_·\YTOX: Ryrncr \Yrt~ running the

GoYcrnruunt.

Tlw SEr_'RETARY FOR PrBLIC \YORKS: It ic i•;tc'resting to follov: the ;·isc of arbi­t-ration in Quecnslo.ml. and the ,-arious efforts of past Parli~rnont~ who had somethino- to say in ronncction \vith the 1natter. \Ye o can recollect the Dallanco Go,-crnnwnt in Xcw Zealand ancl their efforts. :Yir. Rcoyo.s, \Vho later occupied tho position of Ac;ent-Gerwral in London, had his name associated with a_

measure int.roducocl in Xew Zealand thirtv­five y0ars ago-a measure which admitted the principle of preference to unionists. It

[Hon. M. J. Kirwan.

only goes 10 sho\v that those men saw the light and were not asharr1ed to allow their nu np_•:- to be a::-:·<H:iatcd \rith legislation which. if forwa rJ· at the present day, \vould

tlk ;.1uJtcd oppo3it.ion of hon. rncrnbers

In the l'arliam nt tho gentle-nwn \Yho llO\Y ~Jr. Justice Powers, Presi-

uf tlH' Co.ncJlirrtioll and .. A1:bitration oi ~-\n::-:tl·aliaJ lllOYC'd the second read­

of an .:~1-l:bitra l·ion Dill fraJncd on the of tlw .:\('\Y Z::aln11tl n1casurc, but the

Bill '.\-a.~ slaughtered. ~Jay. cornpuhory industrial arbi~

1 r- a vart of tlw platfonn of th 1_-llitec\ Labour and Liberal party of \ H I(_;Iu1 a11d later on it v,_a-; adopted thl~)ug:wut· the length and brcaUth of _.\_us­tr~dia as oue or tho planks oi tho Labour )Jiatform .

.Yh. KEc;: And it has been dropped in 1925.

ill a.--1.]

The SECH.ETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Following- on thal, the wages board system was introduced.

In Qneonsland in 1894, the year of the groat shearers' strike in this State, when the Peace Pre,,ervation .r\ct \Vas passed, Mr. Fisher. who ;vas then a member of this cl.sscmbly, moved a ree>olution-

" TLat the time has arrived when l'ar­liament ehoulcl take steps l,o prevent the constant recurrence of industrial dis­putes."

That. of course, rece-ived no support fron1 hon. gentlemen representing the party opposite, who wNe then in control of the n_,ins of power in this State.

Subsernwntl '- l\Ir, Frank l\IcDonnell moved a r< ,,ointion a'tiirming the principle of wage, hcarcls. A \\"ages Board Bill was passed m 1907. but yyas thrown out bv tho Legislative Council. ~

In 1908 another Dill was brought in and p,· .-~ed. and the sy~tcm of \Yagcs boat~ds

until the passage of the Industr1al Act, followinc upon i.hc industrial

of 1812. 'l'l1ero '-Yas 11(' essential in the Indu:;rrial Peace 1\.ct that

as well' be cailcd attnntion to, tllat \'i·a~> the non-n~cognition of unions. !l!Ca'lll'<' v.-as founded on the idea that

nut. :lch~isaLlc- to recognise the indus­th<•n ~xistcd

Labour- GoYcru­introcluccd the

whid1 had for of ali industrial

enconragetw~nt goner-- org-anisations. It will bo

thn.t much r,ood has rcsultC'cl from notwithstanding that there may

in connection with the arbitration this State. I should like to know

1nunall institution thcr; is iYhich de­la rg-c h· on the human elc rn c•nt that has

not ir~ defeCts and has not rna,de lnist:Irkos. It ],.;; all Yerv w0ll for son1e hon. · mcm.bers to denounce, the present system of :ubitra­tion. or to sav tluJt it does not realise ihn hopes ;:tnd asr)irations of the gront n1ass of the \mrkcrs, and that thev want Mome other sy,tem ro be introduced to give to the \\·orkcrs of the State a better share of the weaith produced. I hase yet to see such a measure, and I would welcome it if it came along. So far we have not been able to deYise any sehcme or any systen1 1nuch in

I nd1tstrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.] Act AmHdmtnt Bill. 1381

advance of the arbitration svstem as it now exists in this State and 'throughout the Commonwealth. As a result of the opera· tions of industrial arbitration in this Stat<', the great mass of the workers, and parti­cularly the members of weaker industrial organisations, have achieved benefits under the system that they could never have hoped to achieve by direct action or methods of that kind.

:Mr. KELSO: JYlost of the opposition comes from your own side.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC: \YORKS: I say that delib:erat<'ly, and l also say dc•liberately that the general standard of C'lmfort now enjoyed by the great mass of the workers of this State is largely dtw to the operations of the Industrial Arbitration Court.

l\fr. Kr~G: Yet you want to scrap it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Although thoro may have been disabilitie,, and aHhough, perhaps, decisions n1ay haYC' been given which have been questioned-and \vhich a large number of workers have believed they had E!:OOd grounds for ques­tioning, ."~ dt, if you put in thQ scale on the onl~ s)do the advantages and benefit~ achieved nmlcr the op<)raticn; of the Indmtri:J] Arbi­tration scheme of this State and in the other f:.ido t.hn disadYantuges, I say unhe~itatin:.~ly that the bandits far outwclgh an~,· di~adyll.n­tagc; tJ1at. n1ay haYe resulted fronr 1--.-, aL~mini;..,l:rP.tion.

CovElC\MEXT l\1E)IBERS: Heal', h ar:

The SECHE'r \RY FOR PUDLIC \YOHKS: I 110w dt:'3iro to saY ::1 fc·w words in connec­tion \rith the u~n i·~l princlr)lc::: of th{ BilL The Dill abolishes tho present Court of Inrlnstr1:J Arbitration as ~on~tit-utcd b-­repcaling sectioll 6 of the principal ~\et. ProYisiou is 111ndo that all industrial nwarcls at prc-..0nt iu c~,-istcncc arc to be continued. ThPrc jg a]"o provi~ion that the l'Pgulations ttnd rule::< of court shaH continue. Of cour:;c-, the new Boan! of Trade and Arbitration will !le cmpO\YE'l'Ccl to , mend those regulations or to n1ake now rules of court that it n1av ftnd to be nccesf ,ry in its adrninish·a timi and 011eration.

Tho Board of Trade o.nd .\rbitration .-.-ill be constituted by a puisne judge of the Snprenw Con rt, \dw will be President of the ronrt. Tho idea of that is th nuestions of the interpretation of la\\ ma•· be dealt ,,-ith b:: him. Tl e other two member, ,,.ill be layrncn.

The SECRETARY FOH FCDLIC \VORKS: Pc~~ibly there will h<~ son10 objt<etion rai~cd ln hon. members opposite to t.lw appoint­mPnt of lavmPn. hnt I 1vonh1 a~k th('m wh('ther, in f.hc adtninist.ration of an Arbitrn­tion Court and the hearing of statement., hy t.ho rcrnc~cntativcs of enlplo:n'rs and cnl­plo~-cr'.-: r0-;pectively. it :is rCIJ11i:::it.• Ol' n bso­],tc·l:· nrrobary that a person should be a indg-0 of the Suprcruo Court or haYe a legal training-. Snr(']v jt is nossibl0 for a lavrnan to be able to nJieJyse facts and sift evidence, imd C,"iYe a derision in accordance with the evidence placed before him_

M~. KELSO: It all depend;; upon who the layman is.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS: We have the innuendo, the sinister sug-ges­tion, that any person who is appointed by the Labour Government, be he judge or lay-

mun. cannot do justice to the position. Does the hon. member for Nundah not know that when the late ::Vir. Justice McCawley was' appointed President of the Arbitration Court he was so\·erelv criticised, and the Govc;nmcnt were s~1bjected to hostile criticism by the Opposition Press and hon. members opposite because of that appomt~ n1e-nt?

Mr. KELSO: l say it all depends on the man.

The SECRETARY FOH PUBLIC WORKS: The whole of the opposition to the appoint~ ment. of the late Mr. Justice McCawley was based on prejudice-on the old i?ea that a. Labour Government can do nothmg nght -and it. is quite within the province of. the Opposition and the daily Press to cntJcJse any appointment made; yet, when the mortal !'('mains of the late Mr. Jushcc "IcCa\:ley laY in St. Stephcn's Cathedral, "·hen we opcn0d the daily papers in th8 rnoming we ~a\v everyone fron1 the highe.;;;t to the lo-west in the land paying a tribute, of praise to lnm. Tho~c who rerne1nbcr \vnat wa~ ,,ard 'dwn iw was apJ1oiutcd c<mld not help thinking- that thcsP pPoplo proved theinselves to bt· 1Yroug-a3 -:-hey are always wrong.

).dlothcr cas·" in point : \Vh0n t.h(~ ..:-\ttorncy­Genrral introdncecl into thl~ 1-IouKl: the Jnea­~Tll', p!o..-ldinp; for the abolition of District Co11rts, lca.YillV the Supremo Court and tho Fnll Com·t. a ::>the highL)t judicial courts in the lnnJ~ nud propo~ing io g·ive increc1sed po...-•:ers Lo n~agistl'atcs thronuhout the State, \Yl lwd hon. tncrnlwr~ OPllOSitc~ oppo:--iug that ll'r<i,lation. \Ye had the leanwcl hon. member fo~r l\Icrthvr of the dav r~-:~tting np in bis pluco in th~l' IIonsP and ~lPnouncing t.hat Bill. )~et \\TE' knovv ro-dav that. that leg·islariDn is a snccess, ancl nob~dy finds fault- \Yith it.

3.Ir. l\..J5G: That has been frc0l:y adrnitted o:~ this side. Bo just!

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS: Ge11cra1lv ~rwaking. that legislation lHls · rn·oycJ -~Uccc-sfuL ui1d ~he dire cala~·nit: \Yhich hon. rnen1br·rs oppO~JtG prophc·":ncd "\Ynuld follcnv from tlw introduction of that ]e:risla­tion and the stain which \'i-oulcl be c:1::;t on the judicial authorit:-- of the SLltL' have prove·d-as they have al-ways prOY 1~'d to 1Jf'­absolutcl": unfounded. I am m·epared to state in Connection with thi_, ]cg-is.latiou wl1ich I havo the honour to iniroduce on !J:·h,1ii of this party-and I an1 proncl of H~e pri•:ilcgc ihat is rnine this morning-that 1n ~r-:l to corne 1ve shrrll find tbc san1c rcsnlts the operation of this Act.

GO\'ER~!.IEXT ~1~ :\IBEB~: B-ear. hc'a.r

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: ThP UoYcrnn1cnt arc sC'izccl y, ith thP ilnport­

of this ]cgi~lation-morc~ ~'t'~_;:pd nf it hon. n1c·rnbcr~ oppositt•-and of the abso-

lnt lH'ccssit of rnakinrr it a They rPnl1- :- that' i~ j~ abs~lutcl :that thc· ,,honlcl appoint m~n to' t.he l'~nch who ' ill nud.:::c a stH'C05S of thi~ lcgiP.latioP.

·::\Ir. I(ELSO: "\.,.on an' g'ctting perk·: llOW

tl1at }loroncy i::; out of the road.

The SECRETARY FOH Pl7DLIC WC1H KS: I arn Q.urnrised to hc.'1r an hon. meu1ber make the statc;nent. that we arP going to appoint partisans. ~\Ir. Justice l\1cC:nvley \Vas a p.:rtisan when he was appointed! ~Ir. ,Jus ticc Brennan was a partisan \Yhen he '\Va . ..-.

appointed! 0PPOSITIO~ 1fE)JBERS: Of course he was !

Hon. J1. J. Kinvan.]

1382 Industrial Arbitration [ASSE:LVIBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR PL"BLIC \YORKS: :Yir. Justice Irvinc was a partisan when he wa,, appointed!

}Jr. Korr: Of course he was!

The SECRETARY FOR VCBLIC WORKS: :Ylr. Justice Knox was not a partisan when lw ''as appointed! Mr. Justice Jamos was not a partisan v•hen he was appoint,ed! Chic•f ,J nstice Griffith was not a partisan \\hell he was appointed ! Perish the thought! Wh:c do hon. members not rise to the dignity of their positions instead of making these sinister and unworthv suggestions about n1en occupying these high and responsible posi­tions·:

The tenure of office of the laYmen who will be appointed to the com·o ~vill be seven vcars, and that of the President the term for \\:1ich he is appointed b\· the Goyernor in Council. The salaries of the ]a,· members will be equal k> the salary of a puisne judg-e of the Suprcnw Court of Qucdns1and; ihey will l1c1ld offict~ during good bohaYiour, a.nd ''"ill cEly b€' subject to rcn1oval in the san1e WrlY a· a judg-e of the Supreme Court. They ma.' bo reappointed for a further period of E;CYun years pl'OYided the~, have not l'C<lclH~d the ag-e of 'evPnty years. It is !JrO\"ided thin, it the President falls ill or anything else lHqJrH'ns t.o prevent hin1 fl·orn carrying nut hi;-:, dntiPs, the Govcruor in Council rnay appoint a Deputy l'n,sident. who ,,, ill, of conr::-0, be a, judge of the Suprerne Court.

I jnst want to quote here for the benef1t of 1Ym. n1crnbcrs opposite one or hYo opinions a~ u: \Yhrther it is altog-et.her de -}rab]e ro appo1nt lqral :!.nen fbr the purpose of CE!.xry­ing {JUt the function~ of an _._-\rbitration Court. Tlw qnc.:>tion was f1rst rai~ccl in 1900 in \Y('~t"l'll Au3tra.1ia. v.-hcn two judges gave then· opiuion::> on the niatt.el'. It is ju3t as well that I should quot'_' these opiniom. bceau~z' thcv aro not tlv· vic•ws of u Labour :Yiini~rtT o( thP Cro·wn l r Labour agitators or On page 10Jl, of the \\~est ern Au "Hansard '' for 1900. the follow" lJl<r ,, .i_S. nrint 0 d a:; the opinion of Just.ices. St~~~c· and llcnsn1a1I:-

'· Tho duty of the judges is to aclmin­i~:·cr .in~ticc, accJrJirlg to law, to -ch--:r-·ide 'clpon the legal rights [ind duti("s of liti~ ~ants. a( ._:ording to the c:;;tablishccl rule~ uf ~<nv and of leg·al Pvic1enf'e nncl pro-

By this Bill it is propo,'r•d t·hat shall as.~ist· in the decisions bcbvcen work!Pen n ud their

as to their n1utual right' under

Y1Cr:' ClJ' at co:rnmou law, t-o IYh<li· ought to be thc,ir 1·elation (;tiH_ r. rtc·cording to the T.nLu·al ju~ticc. er of p(tlitj a! c-conont~·. . . Tlw deYOt' cl their li\"es to the

of tht: la-;1·, and thr>Y to h3vc n,ade a studv" of

social and econo1i1i( al qne-3-will nrise .in tht' nttH' futur,'

bctw<"cll capibl and labour." .-\n ( )PPOSITIO"'\ J\IE:\IB~.H: That j::; Cabinet':;;

job.

The i'ECRETARY FOR PI~l3LIC \YORKS: :\h .. Jnsticp Hig,;ins. when a member of the Federal P trli:-tmont. speaking on the intro­duction of the Federal COnciliation and Arbitration Act, said-

.. Although I ha Yf the utmost. respect for n1y confrt?rc:s in the h.•gal professioi1.

~IT on. JJ:l. J. Ki1·wan.

I am sure that their minds. if they are in full work, are so occupied with their daily businc··S that they pay loss atten­tion to ecCJnomic and industrial subjects than do t.he members of any other class in !he communit;c, and their sympathies n,aturally tend towards w~1,at I may call ttrc bourgcms 1dcal. , ..

Tho'3e are byo opinions, the one from two \t;t-t·~t Australian judges and tho other fl'om u. gcntlcn1an \Yho occupied a ycry impol'tant position during his term_ in the Federal Par­liarncnt-I think that o£ AttorP0y-Gcnnral­and later on was th0 Presiden~ of the Cmmnonwcalth Court of Conciliation and ~\rbitra.tion. Thoce authorities point out thnt judg-es, b~'l Yirtue of their training, are nor "hYays fitted to discharge the duties of this hig-h and responsible ofhcc. I behove wc can obtain in thte community layman. with :-;nfficir-nt coninlon sense~after all, that Is the rnain tlling in achieYing succc:5s--to place on 1lw Arbitr~tion Court bench, and 1nakc a :-3uccc:-:. · of that court.

l\Ir. I(ELSO: You are having one judge oat nf thrc.--.. n1cn-:!.bc~rs of the court. That is agair- t .Your O'\Vll argunv211t. Th~ SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WOHKS:

TiP'-' hon. gt~I-:!tlon1an i::; in the unfo_rtunatc Jl( -·~tion of not being ~ble to apprcctate an Pl'!.ttnueEt ·~vlv)n it is adva·~c~...'•L I stated di,:;~ tin,t..·th' and clcarh· the rcaflon for haxing· a It ...:.al, n1 ·ll (!'· ..Pr~::.idcnt of the: Arbitrafjon Cc,urt. He \Yill be there to rloct! >Yith mattors rcqniriw~ legal interpretation. He will bo :1cti;:;g in an c·ntir0l~~ difff'r£'nt capacit_,' fro1n a iu.y j ndge ch•~1l in~· with and listeni~1g ~o the :r ,·uit;_cut::; nJ th~? lc.::;pL •t]Yc parties In c nH•n.ion \Yith clnirr:--..: hcfo{(' th~ court. This {;o~.·f'rllJYtt?n-:-. nu:xdc n tr'-·Ht- ndous change~ -an aln1 st rc\·olntionar- a H.cration-vvhen it prchibltL~d barrister~ ~rd ~olicitors from , ppt_,uiL;E, in the Industrial Arbitration C,1urt on bf'half of either pn~plo~·ers or r:n1plo~-r~n~. I challenge any hon. rnembor ollnosite \\ho li,tened to the conduct of the cJ~l rclatir:g to the ba-:-;ic \Yagc qnitc• rt--:cr•ntly, or en ];fl'Yious occu· ion whe-n an import-ant give11, to s:-~y that the caS('

\·e "('Il .~et fortl1 anv better. any rl·:. Ol' in a nwrc itrg-umentati ... ·e

men had been employed insteaa If ln'"nTJC11 nrP a ~.1cccss on thr~ com-i_ then 1Yl1y not raisP them

of the brnoh, "hen' 1 behove Cftually as :3-llccc::~fu] if given

an .:\I r. :\·!TT: Rym0r "\Ya~ a success. ::~r1'. I(:::_._ 1': It ~l"'o\Ys- ho j:- to bo appointed.

SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: i11qwrtan1· altora· .. ion is in tho pro­

\·i.,ioq for the C'stabli~hmcnt of a burcan for the ::-pPcific pnrpos(~ of coll(_lct1ng ;;;:tatistic~

:nformution in connection "\Yith Jr lt >Yill~ b0 ochnittcd that

adjunct, ~:nd i~ abso* lutely to make the court

The n1cn1b('r;:; of the Hew Board nnd Arbitration 1vi1l haYe an oppor­

of n1aking arrangen1Pnts for ihe_ -vrca-1hi:; bureau, \Yhicl1 will cnllcct CYldence

v;hich 1Yil1 undoubtedly be of great assist­nncc to ihc rcsnrctil'~ parties before the court. It will be' ]1ossiblc to appoint a special staff to clo"J with this spw·ial phase of thf' c1uestion. which has bec'll entirely neglected ii1 the past.

The court will also take OYer the adminis· tration of the Profiteering Prevention Act. The rc>asm;s ""hich have suggested this

Industrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.) Act Amendment Bill. 1383

important nlteration are that in very many instances, \vhen an award is given, th3 increased cost is pa~;;sc:d on in1mediat0l~·· vVhen an award is given in an industry It j, unfair that the extra. charge should be posscd on in the way of an increase in prices. 'Some years ago in Melbourne, when the bread carters were given an increase of 5s. a week. the master. bakers immediately inrreaseJ the price of broad, with the result that they collected an extra pound a. week from <Jach carter on hi" sales, gave 5s. a v ••ok to the carter, and retained the other 15s. as additional profit.

The court will have the usual power of appo1ntlng its necessarv officers. The o;chedule of the Bill provides for all tlw conscoucutial alterations as a rrsu1t of the lL("W methods to be adopted under i he Bill.

I ha,·c Lricft:-· explained the outlines of the Bill and I do not know that I can add an:,·thing furth0r in explanation of its pro­visions. Hon. members have had the Bill in their hands for a few days, and no doubt have given it that careful study which it is ·entitled to.

:}fr. KEr.so: You promised that wo would ~C't it on Frid~ty afternoon, and we did not p:Pt ir.

The SPEAKER: Order! I hope that the lwn. nwmber for ::\' undah will cease to int.er­j oct. H c i:1terj N:t·, more frequently than -anv ochcr member on that side of the H~usr (Opposition laughter.)

The SECH.ETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: ..'~.:3 h{}!1. n1c1nbL1 l'S have had the Ollportunity ()f P'· ru~ing the Bill, they \Yill be able to (ii-.:eu:~'-; its main principles. Its n1ain prin­{·iplc~•. <t'- I hasc outlined, nre the appoint~

of t\Yo la· n1cn to the bench. tho tenure men. c the conditions undrT '· hich

they nre ro be appointed, the pas.sing over H1 tht.: cr;urt of the adrninis:.ration of the 1;rni1t.cc1·ing Prc'Ycntion .Act, and the e'-ita.b­li:-luncnt of a burC':1u of statistics. There are

a grcn t 111a ny principle' bcvond these cDn.ic··tion Y.-ith tlH~ Bi1l. I ha\-e much

·lt:n~l'~,___· ln n1oving-•c That the Biil be now read a s~cond

tirnc."

GoYERx:,E:-:T MDIBERS: Hear, hear!

::}lr. (J ubigny) (who \Vas received che<•rs) said: I was rather

at the diatribes of the ::}fini,tcr in to make• ont that tho Oppo­

lwC'n oppos~d to arbitra­arc not ag-ainst arbitra­

against the Government on thPir job and failing to

relatiPg to arbitration now on i 11P :-;ta tute:-bocJk. \vhich it is their dutv

uphold. 1 cannot see how the Bil! \.h~t bee .l lntrocluccd to-day is going to be

~ rcat advnntagr, as every pO\Ye~" that to obtain is ICO\." nrovicled for b-­pr<•scnt on the st"atutc·book. Ail

Bill I~lQreJy seeks t·o do is to appoint . yme.11. instc>td of professional men, to the

-"~rbitnaion Court bench. ~Chat is the sole difference between this Bill and tho le~ds­lction already on the statute-book. The opportnnliy of securing in£orn1a6on and col­lect.ing ~tatistics. and the po\ver to investigate the pmition and affairs of any industry is all provided for in one, two, or three Acts now on the statute-book. The power of find­ing ont the cost and selling price of goods i3 giYrn under the Profiteering Prevention

Act. All that is asked for is already avail­able, and has been availed of by the late Chief Justice and other members of the Arbi­tration Court. The late Chief .Justice and other members of the court appointed an Econon1ic Conunission to deal wit.h certatn phases of arbitration. The commission pre. sented an authoritative report to the court. YYhich appears to have brushed it on o:'c side and to have selected one or two of Its narts as worthv of consideration. It prac ticallv adherNJ oto the opinion it had formed rathe.r than accept the advice and informa.­tion of an Economic Commission appointed for i he purpo"c.

One factor that. is neccssarv jn arbitration is to see that th.c law is ur;held. What 1s the position to-day? \Vo ha. Ye the specta.de of union YYhich have broken the law bemg pandered to by the Government. The Go­vcrnnwnt have attempted t.o caJole the law­breaker.·. and asked them to keep the law; but thev have been openly defied. VVhcn rhe firstc Arbitmtion Bill was introduced in 1916 proYision was made for o!:'cdience .ro the laYv, and ponalti(>j were pro'nded for Its 1Jon-obscrvancc. It is up to the Goyernment ln oee that the penalties provided by the Act are pnforco:l. It is no use baYing a law Dn th•~ Rtatutc-book and not enforcing its rJenaHio j when breaches arc openly com­rnittcd. ''Ve ha-.;c bpfore our eyes to-day­and we have had it. ever since the Industrial Arbitration Act h ·oame law-it has been specialh· brour£ht home to us in the last couple of months-rho ~pectadc of both small and la rgc bodic~s of 111011 breaking the_ law and the law nDt being euforcecl. It IS ah,olutelv useless to have a law and not c·nforce it: and I cannot see hoYV by the appointment of hYo la•·n,cn io assist the jndge th0 la,,v is going to be enforced.

There is nothing in this Bjll to say that direct actio• Yvill be done aYvay ,,-ith. lt wa eontcndcd ''vhcn arbitrat-ion v,-a brought into forcp th t the enactmcllts of 1ho law ould be· PnforcC'd: that t her.:; IYould b(~ no di:"~ crimination ;, that one sidP would not _b0 <1llmvcd to break the law ,·bile the other s1de was compellNl to respect the law. lt 'Yas made clear ihat there would be a penalty of £100 on cn1ployers and employers' associations and unions and a penalty of £10 en emplo:·ees if they hroke the law. To.day we have the law being broken, and in one e:1se it. has been broKen for some w0cks now, and there has be<•n no attempt to enforce it. H is uselc s iwving a !an·· on the statute-book 1f it is not enf~rced. Such an dtitudo brings the Govcrnn1ent [Lnd the ln lnto contPinpt. 1>eople haYL no respect for uch i·lstitution if codain sect:ons are ponnittcd to brcak the• law with impullity. It is all nonst:nso for the Minif'tcr to sa:.- that an attack_ ~~ made b ~ the DC\\·:::-pape1·s on ever.~· orc·tslun ·when a. mC'asurc i:3 introduced hv a L~tlJonr Go,·r>rn­mcnt, rucroly because jt 'is introduecd b:v. a. Labour Govcrnn1ent. Those rrlcasurr-.; -, Juch arc likolv to b0 useful are we1~onled. \"/hen \\ o sec al,bitration ridicnled [\11(1 the Govcrn­rnont falljng da~~vn on their job, ~urely the ncvvspatJCrs arc f'ntitlod to cor rn0nt :::cverel~· on the mid·ter :

It is contc ndccl that the Gm·ernment are brino'inrr in a DO\Y Bill to better ex1sting con­diti;ns.~ I can su nothing in this Bill to bott er t?xistlng- condition~ or to '11force the la\\ anv better than it is being t)nforced to-cla7. " If it were likelv to bring about an improvement or a bettei: attempt at arbitra­tion and conciliation than has bee~ the case

Jlr. 111 oore.]

1384 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

in th<" )!ast, it would be welcome; but the mere fact of putting two laymen on the bench will not improYe the position, and it is ridiculous to maintain that their decisions ''ill be obeyed any better than those of a. judge. The ridiculous contention has been ftdYanced by hon. members Opposite that OUr Arbitration Court judges have never earned their liv jng at the rate of £4 and £5 a week, and are therefore not fitted to arbitrate equitably for the workers. Because a man 1s a murdt'rer or a forger it is ridiculous to contend that he should be tried by a murderer or a forger. The idea of the presenl; Bill is that the members of the tribunal shall haYe per,onal experience of the workers' condi­tions.

Mr. HY}.;ES: Is that not sound?

:YYr. MOORE: No. The essential thing is to look at the economic nosition of the country, to decide what ou~ indmtries can afl'ord to pay in competition with other :-;talcs, and to give the best wages in view o: those considerations. Bee a use a man is ;n>rking in some industrv and thinks he is cutitled to a grcatet· amo~mt of wages, there 1~ no 1·eason whv he shonld receive an ac\Yancc on surh g'rounds. The n1.ttter rnust h· looked into from the economic point of YlC\\·, as the ruat.ter concerns the ;'·hole ~tatc.

::>Jr. \Y. CoOPEH. \Yhv do~s a 1.1 , vet study lnw: He doe, it w th'at he will kl1ow more n bout it.

:\Jr. :.\IOORE: He does so in order to have a n1ind trained to aceept '"hat is nrc. 1 "ria l ('vid0ncc, to dctcrnline upon \vhat 1·~ Ti¥ht and what is -wrong; to be able to

what ·will Le the result of the course taken.

:\Ir. \Y. COOPER: So that he eau plead a c" "C in court.

:\I r. I' ~OOR.E : I--Ie rnay ph·ad a ea so or {(cfc•nd a case; bnt this question of arbltra­tion is not a 1natter of plendino· a, case, but of ndjndicating· U110n a ca-..e; ~nd the• l1HLI1

;,ppointed to the> positioe1 ,.honlcl be qualif\ed to judge as to y,hat is lW~terial and what i" jl .Inaterial; as to \Yhat effect anv action \YiJl have 011 the indw trit-3 Of OUr s'tato and (lll the economic nosjtion of the State. That i, "·hat the judge of an Arbitration Comt i:- for, nnd he n1tl'::t. be trained in th0 taking of ('Yidcncr; CJllcl to understand CXrtCH V wha\ l'( ~nits ·will accrnc if certain dcci~iOn:;: aro f-;iYC11. rrhe powers are so \Yjcle in a Bill like th1s that an incorrect dcci~ion or a docision that has not bN'Jl carefull.v thought. {JUt nH1y 1nean tho ruin of a whole indu~tr~~. r~J.=o e..m.]

I ha"'' not been able to fmcl out from thp :;\lini:;:;i:cr p.o far, exactly 1-vhr~t benefits

accrue under the Bill. The functions include the investi­

into industrial matters or sweating nrmcction with wag-es. All that is nro·

Yidcd for in the prr·sent Inclust.ric,1 Arbitra­tion Act.. If he likes. a judge at the prr~0nt tin1c can ask a representative of the c·mpln:o'crs and a rf'pr!>entatiYo of the employees to ,jt on the bench as a'scssors and r;ive him the benefit. of their ach·ice. It has not been done because the judge recog­mseB, as we all recogmsc, that the advocates who appear m tho court are able to present their evidence in ouch a wav tha.t it is onlv necessary for the judge to a'cljuclicate on th'8 character of that evidence and decide what the result is going to be.

(Mr. lfloure.

The Bill also gives power to investigate the prices of commodities and perform other functions that belong to the Commissioner of Priees. All that is provided for in the ]'rofiteering Prevention Act of 1920.

The Bill also gives power to investigate into questions relating to unemployment. That is all provided for in the Unemployed \Vorkers' Insurance Act. The miscellaneous functions e.re no more than those already provided, and there is no better P.rovision in the Bill to enable the law to functwn better; no better method of carrying out the law, or providing how the Government shall enforce the decisions of the court. There 1s nothing in the Bill to alter that part of the Act.

Everything is the same except the consti­tution of the court. \Ve have seen a sectwn of Government employees striking against the Government and the court absolutely powerless to c·nforce its a wards : and the GoYernmcnt apparently were powe;'less to g·et behind the court to sec that tnc laws were obeved. If a Government find that thcv arc "unable to enforoe the law against tho;r own emplo)'COS ar>d are defeated by their employees, it is time for that GO\·ern­nlcnt to get out.

:\Ir. COLLIKS: You believe m b ... ttons <t!ld bayonets.

The SPEAKER : Order ! :\Ir. :1.100RE: There are othir m'ctiwds of

U"lforci11:;· th0 law than to u:;;c; batons <:l~d hnvoncg. Thf•re ure plenty of m(J:hod;:; of doing it, but this GoYernn1C~nt n1ade no ~ug­g<'~6on. I know that for political purpo~es it ntav be useful fo1· hon. momhrrs on the other' side to interject that the Opposition b,,licve in the use of batons and ba)'O!lds, but. after all, it is only a silly interjection <:1ud it dor) not rar!::v any weight.

When we have a Bill before m which is supposed to be an hono't enclea\'our to bring about a better state of affairs through cou­ciliation and arbitration. one ;voalcl expect, rrfter the experience the Govornrnent haYe g-one through. that the:- would endeavour fn find some mcthor1 io enforce t!H· la''· s thev put on the statu to-book rather 1 han cit weaklv clown and be dictated to. Can hon. memb'rrs on the other siclP of thP Hou'c feel sat;sfied at the position to·day in regard to a etrike that has been declared b:· the "Arbitration Court to be illf'gal. in which not one branch of that or:Tanisation has adopted the legal method laid clmnl i:J the Arbitration Act before a strike can take piece? Is it likely that the GoYPrnmcnt.

hen bringing in such a Bill "-' tlns aucl providing no rncthocl of enforcing the ]n,w iJ rr' going to haYC' it. b0tt0r enforced under th1s 1neasure than unrler tho present ..:'\et.?

\Yo want to s0e 'Yl10th0r it is po~sible to do avvav \Yith thC' svsten1 of direct action. \V,-, "·ant t.o see \Yhethrr it i, possible to bring n bout a bett.c'r po<::itinn through conci~iati.on nnd arbitration, and the only 1va:· -to 1nsp1re thP confidence both of the wnrkcrs ond of rh~ cm plovers is to bring- 1n n l ;_vy which can be enforced, no matter whether it is ''mployers or the employees who object. If it cannot be enforced. the court is prac­tically futile and awards will only be obeved when' it suits the persons concerned. ·

Surely a law of that sort can be of no benefit ·to the State! The whole system of law in regard to industrial arbitration rests on good will and the desire on both sides

Industrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1385

to abide by the awards of the court. If one section is not going to abide by an award of the court merely because it does not get. all it asks for, arbitration falls to the ground. When one section wins by direct action, then another section is going to rely on it; and, if the Government cannot uphold the law against one section, we cannot expect them to uphold it against another section.

I am very disappointed with the Bill, and I am unable to see what benefit is likelv to accrue horn it. It is all very well to say that the Government are not likely to appoint partisans. Judging from previous results of legislation which has been passed, my opinion is that the whole idea is to appoint partisans. There is no suggestion of appoint­mg independent men who are not connected with the industry. One of the greatest faults in connection with the Industrial Arbi­tration Court is that employees in an industry do not appear in tho court at all; it is the 1mid officials of the unions who apply for a,\vnrds.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC "WoRKS: It is going to apply equally to the employers and the employees.

Mr. 1\IOORE: Tho point IS that the Nnployers and employees in an industry >lion!d bo the people who initiate the appli­cation for an a"\vard or for a variation in an ;_nvard.

Th" SEcHET.IRY FOR PcBLIC LAXDS: Is not t:lc court entitled to have the case vut in the a blest and clearest manner?

:'dr. :\IOORE: Of course wo rocognis,c that; bnt tho point I want to make is that in nine_ cases. out of ten the ernvlo.~.~ees in n parhcular rndustry do not even know ~xhen a ,~ariation of their avvard is going to be asked for. It is the organiser-the paid official or secretary of the organisation-\vho ir; order to keep 'his memb,;i·s together and ict them see tha,t something is being done for them, initiates tho application for a variation in the award, and not the morr <·n;,a~· d in the industrv who know exactlv

comiii ions of the ·industrv. \Vhen a;r of wage' is got the' official savs. got it for vou." From the organi­

point of view, it is a benefit to them; but from the point of view of industrial peace thoro is no benefit.

If the Government arc sincere iu tlw sug­;::ostion that they ''ant to secure industrial pf<tcc rrtther than direct action, there is not,hing in. this Bill to say they arc going to secure rt 111 anv "\Yav \Yhatevcr. Unles.~ they arc going to ~ppoiilt par6san~ 1.vho arc going- to giYo the employees what thev ask for. there is nothing to snv that indt~strial ;lC':I('(' is more likclv to be secured under this Bill than under the present Act. Though the Minister says it is unthinkable that partisam 'hould be appointed. the' only poc.c,iblo way in<lnstrial peace is likely to he secured. eYen under the old Act, is b:: partisan appoint­ments, and in these circumstances the indus­tries of the State are going to suffer.

\Y 0 must look to the economic position of industries hero as compared with other States to sec how industry is going to ad,·anco or to retrogress in Queensland. I think it has been made olec.>r· in the speeches of J\lr. Bruco and Mr. Charlton that it is <lbso­lutely essential for the industrial conditions to be similar all over Australia unless one State is going to be placed in a worse posi­tion than another State. It is recognised that that is essential if all the States are

to have an opportunity to make equal pro­gress. Of course, there are other things to be taken into consideration, such as distance from market and other things which may make a slight variation; but to think that Queenslnnd, under a Bill like thi', is going to make the industrial conditions better than those in another State and that at the same time it "ill be able to progress indus­triallv is out of the question. We know it callnot be done.

The primary function of an Arbitra.ti_on Court is to fix wages accordmg to the ability of the industry concerned to pay, and ~n accordance with the principles laid down m a section of the Industrial Arbitration Act, which 'cts out as the bases of awards that thev shall be sufficient to give a. comfortable livi'ng to a man, his wife, and three children. Another function is to fix the hours of work according- to the economic conditions which the industry can stand. Both of thes.e func­tions have latelv been usurped by Parliament, and we have 'had members of this House taking upon themselves the t':'o primary functions of fixing wages and of fixmg hours. \\"hat is left for the court to do? Is the court to be able to abrogate the decisions of this Honse '? Has it tbo authority to go bade to a. 48-hour ·week or a wage of £4 a week or loss? Or is it to be subject. as the Arbitrnt1on Court recently was, t.o direct action, or other methods by w~ich a Govern: Hrent c n be compelled to brmg m an Act of ParlialnCYlt to override its decisions? The court is sf't up for certain definite purposes ~·t out in the principal Act·; but we. ha~.re

hr.d this 1-Iousc taking away fron1 1t 1ts hH> mo't important functions of fixing the nwxiunun working week and the basic ·wage.

pcnvcrs and functions ha'" the CDUrt

? It 1nav have conc~liat-ory powers, f'xerri .eel bv bringing parties to a dispute togeth('": buut there again you cann?t have cot•ciliation unless you haYe good "\VIll, and c0rtainlv YOU cannOt ha,vo good will unle-:~ YOU ha\:(;~:__. __ , Mr. RYAX: "\ temperament?

~lr. }.'IOOTil~: Xo, not tempcranlent-vou haYe the confidel1ce of the people

rn fairness of the court. Unless you have 1 he ccnfidcncP of both side·~, :rou cannot have

If vou arc to have the people that ~ partisa.n has been a particular purpose-'· ith the

of securing industrial peace --it is not to make for industrial pcnc ', because one side will think it. is going to be treated unfairly. To my mmd rt IS a inditinl tribunal which inspires the most ~-onftdf'nc:c, because, although it is recognised t hJ t ltnvvcr~ have not personnl experience of Jw "l;tss of \York on which thoy have to adjndic8tc, at any rate they arc t-rained in 't1lc .,t,·ork of SC}Jarating the mrNtcrial from the immaterial, of detecting the true from the f"l'"c. and of being ablo to judge from ilw ··vidcnce which is put before them as to wha.!· aPlount of wages should be given and '.dlllt number of hours should be worked i11 a. particular industry, instead of by some other mcihod placing that industry at a di:"ad"nn1agc in ro1nparison with the sa1ne inrlustrv in the other Statu. That is what has t.o ·be considered, if we aro to keep our rncn 0mploved. It is not a question for a man who has worked at that industry and who considers that a man employed at it works harder and is worth more money tha.n somebody else. It is a question of the

llfr. Moore.l

138fl IndustT'ial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

employment or unemployment which is going to occur afterwards. The whole object. of this or of any other State should he the provision of lucrative and profitable employ­ment for as many workers as possible ; and to get that result you cannot give conditions in this St-cte which are far higher than those in an adjoining State. Otherwise you lose employment. '1Vo find that that is actually the ._as~.

The S:.:cRETARY FOR PuBLIC WORKS: No.

:\lr. :VIOOHE: I think that the hon. gentle­man, in an illustration which he gave him­eel£ [Heviously this session, showed that only certam clasBes of industries were thriving m Quecnsla.nd, and that others were going under to those in the other States. He ,ho,ved that where a largo proportionate amount of w?rk had to be done in bringing the output. of a factory to the selling point. m Queensland ';'e were g~ing back, and that I! was only HI tne mdustncs where compara­tJ:cely fe", men were employed in comparison 'nth the value of the output that Quc~nsland vva.s able to sh{nv good results. So soon afl >n) go to the manufacture of boot.s and shoes. textiles, and similar classes of work we find a huge balance in favour of Nc',v South \Vale•. and. Victoria. If we are to bring mto operatiOn another svstem of arbitration -an{1 . I _cannot seo any improvement in IYhnt F here propo:-;cd~merclv to secure indu~trial pc.ac.", ~nd if for that. purpose apphcatwns are to oe acceded to we arc not m )Ying in thv llirection of emp1oyn1Ant but of uncmplo.vrntJnt. It n1av 1nako for a little bettr·l' unditions for the 'few men cmploved in somo of the industries; but. it is corta{nlv not going to mean an expansion of trade fo·r Qul•en~1and; alh~ c-:rtain]y it is not goirt5 rn rn, a,!1 pr?spcnty f_or a larger number of pt·opl0: It Is onl:- go1ng to mF:-tn that indus-tr;· ,-![1 be -·atly restricted. and will be confined indus(.ries that lw.ve natural

in \Yay of extra eost on trans-competitive industries. and to those

th·1t arc rrivcn conc0ssions in con­nc·('tion "·ith the ra~v ma.t.eria] usei'l for the uwnnfac .... urr~d article.

The in the Bill is a wrong one. I ce2 the Gm'ernmr>nt introduce a . ,JJO\vcr cnr> bling the law to

c ltforced l~t rr Simple and efl:'ecti,~c 1nanncr. has alwavs been advanced that

15,000, or 20.000 per ·Oils disobe,; law. ycu cannot enforce it. If there ls

" Ja,v 0.1 st •tntc-book like that, then it lw~ no tn l'C'Jnajn therc>·. No mattPr ho .,' Hl81r· tL~i'20l1S hr .1.k the law. C1ey hould

th(~ san1c pcnrdtv as if t.he hl"v \Yere h}- only one individual.

Th FOE PUBLIC \VORKS : They ca11.11ot the' la,y to-day in Victoria ~1g:: in.st the individua-L

::\Ir. )'[()ORE: We are not in Victoria. There an•_ individuaL, against who1n it 'is

d!~icul~ ~o enforce the law) but n1y 1~ t.:Htt the GoYcrnment. arc not

to do anything to make anybody

FOR PnBLIC '\VonKs: Queem­most law-abiding Sllte in Aus-

:\fr. l\IOORE: We have a strike in Quoen ._ land, to-da.v, and not one finger is lifted by the C·ovormnen~ to h~ve the> law obeyed. \Ve h. vc tl1e Prem1cr go;ng out and begging tho mPn who are breakmg th<' la.w to obev it r.nd he is being openly defcecl clay after 'day:

[Jir. 111oore.

Not one finger is being lifted by the Govern­mpnt to make thorn obey the law. 1f no effort is made to enforce the penalty pro­vided by an Act, is it. likely t.hat any respect will be paid to law which is laughed at and sneered at and broug·ht into contempt? During the recent railway strike 18,000 men refused to obe'\ the law-they were the Govern1nent's o<·.-n servants.

I\lr. C:oLLIXS : And your servants, too.

Mr. VOORE: There we bad the Govern-1ll('nt clinging to office rather than taking n firm stand and risking being defeated. The whole thing was· heart-breaking.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \V'OHKS: That \\ .1s the milk in tho cocoanut.

J\Ir. MOORE: It is a terrible thing in a dclr~ocra tic countrv to flncl the Govennncnt submitting to au u Dutside organisation. "ftnd being afraid to face the position. That is the position that exists to-day. There is I'othing in t.hc Hill '"hich will make the Gon'rnment 01JC penny better off or able to c•rdorco th0 la" am· better than thov are doing to-clr,- The,: arc at perfect liberty to salY0 their conscicncPs and bring in son1o­thing to hookwink tho people and say they an_• going t.a appoint two laymen to rnake orbitra: ion a live factor, instead of the dead letter that it is to-day. In introducing the

tlr'v have their tongues in their r>ncl ·they know perfectly well that. ls g·Jing to n1ak() no difference what-

:\f,·. PEAse: ".fr. Ju·tice l\facnaughton 'tatcd that he >vas of the opinion that lay­n:<•n s!10nld be a;.pointcd to the bench.

}!r. :\fO()EE: Mr. Justice 111acnaughton. ac an Arbitr1 tion Conrt judge. knows per­fcctl,,· weil thnt he has power to emplo;: a,~~' sors on b(~half of both parties to assi,,.t hin1 if hP ciC:l'Dls it advisable. It is no use >:<yin;;; tlwt the fact of removing a judgP

ar1p0inilng a layman is going to lllllk'~ bc•ti-01'. It is not· going to do so. 1

the Bill is not more comprehemi\'c

FOR PUBLIC \YOHKS: The

~\Ir. ::\IOORE: There is no prophecy in s;Jyi}lg' tht~t a Bill brought in to a1nend the lnw o',l ihe f'i:atn1e-book \Yill mt:'ct with t1' _, ~anlf' difllcult.it~s. r'rH'ountcr the I·an1e W·.>ak-knc<'<l policy. and ,., ill not be oboy0d. If tlw 'Iini>ter had introduced a Bill to makP ihc la"'-"': n1orc cflir.aeious. he \vould ha.Ye had all the snpport he desired h·orn hon. lJH'1l!bcr on this side. LTnfortunateJy, 11e h<1 : cont('nted hin1seli with n1aking one ,; 11 Tni-ion, '1Yhich he ~a vs \rill work in a,

-. cmdr'I'fl'l "'" . \Yhv should it? :'\"o rea ·Jn 'how that. it >vould. IIc said

were not go1ng to appoint

L\~~r. P1 ''S!':: 'The La1Jour Governn1cnt ne1,·er do. (Opr;oi)ltion ]aughtcr.)

;\f;·, :\'IOOR~: '\'\~c know J·hc 'd1oh ba'i' of it. [ wrmt to know from the 2'1Iini'<ter '"hother he is going to appoint laymen to the {'Onl't who ,, ill ensnre peace in jndustr~v to t he• iniurv of the industry and State c··oromicall,-.

The SECUETATIY FOH PCBLIC .WORKS: :-i'ot if in ntaking their judgments they are guided b~, cl a uso 9.

1\Ir. l\100RE: I hope they will bP guidod by that clause, and I als0 hope they will

Industrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1387

look at the penalt,· clause. The Govern­ment should say distinctly to the members of the tribunal 'Yhen thcv take iheir seats on the bench. " W c will stand behind the court and .. ;;(>(' that its j udgn1cnts arc enforced.''

The SECRET.\RY FOR PuBLIC V\" ORKS : You want the com·t to interfere in political ,disputes.

".lr. :\100RE : It is not a case of interfer­ing 111 political disputes; it is a case of the GOYl'rnrnent t:1king the initial steps in all case' whcrP the la· .. · is broken. I want the C~ovcrnmcnt to tell the members of ihe tribunal definite!~· before thev commence to adjurlicatc that if the la,, io b~·oken thee· yy·ilJ stand behind 11Hcm and see that their jmlg­ments are upheld. If the Government do that. I ... ~o not care 1.vhethcr layn1cn or pro­fc,~ional Dl"n arc appointt..~d; and I arr1 quite sure such action 1.vould inspire the confidence of the people and en,ure a measure of indus­trial JW,,cc. If a section of the umununity He r.o i.Jc G!lowcd to defy the law, as at ]H'C;:;ell~.. and est ape scot-frce fron1 thE:~ per:1ltit" provided, the Government n1ight just a· ell wipe out the Act altogether. There l" uo n a son to place a la\v on the ~tntntc-bnok \vhich 1~ onl:,· binding on one part,- and 1oot on tlw other.

( )pr~c·--:J:·ro~, ~1E:\IBER~;;: llear, hear!

liT!-. FEHRTCKS (South Bri.<l)(fnc): This Bill i:-< ~,n'lcon1c, hcc3,u.;;:c, in rr1v op1niou. lt i~ alteriug the ~ysb!nl of arbitration , by id:old1ing tile _Arbitration Court as at present con-tituied. alH_l pnrting in it...; pla{'! sonl('­thing 1Thicl1 ,~·ill be far n1ore up to date and dl'ecti.-c.

1· ;:~d~ ._. of the Cppo.ition in the course 1 t'nwrk~ L . rnt d ( n the fear that the

L <l ppoint partisan"' to the fm· Public \'\'arks in

r. 1·ie. of tho historv of iu ,\ustralirr punctured that a:rGU­

pninting out that eyer~ appointrnent n1ade to tbn bench bv an anti-Labour G-o­

\YhS -" ~1arri:-:ftn appointnv~nt. I at:l that t.hi, GoYorument will appoint to the Arbitration Court. bench.

·•yer is appojntld I want to ~tre:}S fo1· their g1..1.idanco. It is

in Jog·islatiou of this kind­I ""' uot attributing· this to the leader of 1 i1P Oppo.;;ition, hut n1ereh~ to tlh~ :..,.,-~tt'Jn or ;)olie~.,- \vhich .c,Ornctinics act.s to

"hnosplwro so that whoever are tn ~ueh po,;;itions will in1mcdiatcl:; to [H'n,·e they arc not partisans.

lat·e GoYernor of the Con)n1on­Sir .J?eni.s

1on Miller, ·, 1s

J·O"ltlon ne v,·a atl offtccr South iY ales. An officoe

of t1tu B<ntk ::\en· South \Yrdos subse­(1nenti told Dl(~ that the late Sir Dcnlson :\Ti1le1·. in an t'IHleaYour to ayoid an-- accu~a­tion of b•illg' in lc~1.gne or in svnlpP:thv \Yith the B:mk of :'\ c-yy· South \V ,Jes. did not appoinr, a single officpl' of that bLmk to an7 of the irnpnrtn nt pc,ts 1n the Cmnmonwealth Bank. I crmld illu•t;·ate how tlwt fpnr achl by an incid ~nt in ;1 sporting club I w.t~ coEnectcJ IYiih jn ur- ear1ie1· dav:;: ·w'"c had

of om: football to~m a gentlo-nlnn, E-~nbserp1ently \Vas a. respected- mmn-lwr Honsc, ·.:ho, though a very J,oor p~aycL \Ya ;:~ Yery enthu.;.;iastic supporter. \\'hen he could not get a game with the first fifteen of the Rug-bv team he often used to officiate a:-. rcfcrPC'. H0 \Yas the ·'"~ orst refc:-rce that OUJ~ tcatn C'Xperienced. rfhat was becan~c he set out under a desire to show

how impartial he "as. I hope that who­ever may be appointed to the lay positions 011 the Arbitration Court bench will not set out to Jll'OYe to tho world that they arc not partisans. l hope that 1hey will judge each C<'l~C fairly and squarely, and treat it on itsjl rncrits. ·

\Yhy all this admiration, almost c•.mounting to worship, towards the legal mind in arbitra­tion methods? I cannot for the life of me sec the reason. I have ahvavs taken the viow that la,ymcn "·ith practic~l experience arc in a far better position than a legal man to judg~ of the work of an artisan, and if h,, has nob had actual comact with the yyork, lu; has had actual contact with the condi~ tions under 1vhich these live who are engaged in tho i11dustry, and which cxporicn.ce has "ot been the lot of the aYemge judge.

rro shov: that tho leg'al 111an some1i1nes takes queer a.Ycnue'" of perception, let n1e quoiP as an jliustration a 1nattcr of which l neced in the " :'\ orth Queensland Register " (lurir,b the earl:~ part of last year. .... L\. case '·'as before the Arbitra1ion Court in Towns­ville before Judge Dougla:3. Now, Judgo Douglas is n 1nan who is not entirely deyoid of experience in arbitration 1natters,~ because

recently published notes of the lato Jmtice McCawlcy state that J'udgo

Douglas acted as an arbitrator b-:foro he wa:o; appointe-d to the bench, and the hon. members for I{cnned v and To'" nsYillc infonncd n1e that. bcforcv rcc :-i·;iEg hi5 appointuwnt, he acted a8 arbitrator in scYeral casC's. I th1n.k the C!oncurrv case of 1916 was ont::-. In thi:-:; ("a.-<e-and thC hon. rncrnbcr for I\::cnncd.y will hoa1· me out in ihis-\hat asJWCt which I have f1rgucd upon for son1e tin1c :in this 1-Iouse \\as being dealt .. ,,·ith-rhe question of a gTc'ater reLluncration for labour involv:iug additional danger to ilw worker, ot labour that was cxoPption~liy arduous or lih,!y to injure thr health of the worker. The matter d,·alt with Mount Isa and the employees there. and J'llr. Cahill, the representative of the PnJployccs, argued thnt, O\ViHg to th: prob b~lit;: of worker~ ar l\Ionnt Isa f'on­traf'ting Jcacl poisoning-the rnineral being .::jlvcr-lcn.d-a hig-hr-r rato o£ l'£'Hlnneration should be a'.' ar,-lcd tbr m. This is the a'tom'd­ing rcplv n1adc by }lr. Justice:-·

" ~.1ount Isa h2.s been n1onths and !18 1ninc~r has yot.n

I have had no experience of !Jut I have had expcricnc of mining and I nho men1bcrs fol' v.:ho ha Ye had the rna·~._-cr. and hon. Ttll' th·,t the ~hortest pr~riod be a rnrLn had bcf'on1c ' leadc"d ~ y·,a::; fro1n four to ~ix ·ars. n nd thu.t ,YiH'll working in the cltpi hs,' as ""t Broken I-T5ll, and not on the surface. a, at l\iount Isa. Anyboch· with

of n1ining. a11d cn~n if he had would rcaliec that the f1rst

111i'C'C month·~' operations \Yas onl~v prepara­iorv work. ....\nybodv wouk1 kno"\V that except a judge of tho' Snp'i·orne Court Apparently it i~ beneath tlw dignit:: of a jndgo to inquire into 'Urh thing,, consequently he make·:, th·_ ·e blunders. And thou Y'\'8 are told a Supreme Court judl'e i·.- the correct man to net on an Arbitration Court bench t

-\Vhat ha~ be~n the procedurt· of those learne-d judr.{es ever Rince the ~~~rbitration Court has been established in this State? They have spent a lot of time endeavouring

Mr. Ferricks.]

1388 Industrial A1·bitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act AmendJi,.ent Bill.

to obtain what they are pleased to consider the correct cost of living-the least a man, his wife, and three children can livo upon. 1\otbing further. Cert<tinly the notes of the )ate Chief Justice McCawley indicate that he was imbued with a broader perspective than the PrPss reports of the different cases which appeared before him would lead us to believe, That attitude on the part of the Arbitration Court judges has caused our "rbitration system to become unpopular. In <lHka,·ouring to ascertain this cost of living, the judge, receiving £2,000 or £2,250 a year, has spent hours and perhaps days in taking <'vidence on the question of whether bacon wns a necessar:•"" comn1o-dity for a working man to have. That \vas mentioned in argu­ment before a Court of Industrial Arbitration prcsid0d ovf'f by a judge receiving £2,000 a year!

Then again we have beheld the spectacle crf delicate delails regarding the wearing apparel of fcma.lcs being quoted in the court :in the endPavonr to a~rertain the cost of

Jiyi ng for the enactment of fl2 noo:u] a basic 'vage. Over eighteen

,·ens ago Mr. Justice Higgin,; thC' Hn rv0ster cas0 1.vent much further

tha.t bccrrusc he laid it uown then thac court should take as its 6tanrhr<1 the

110r~nnl ,~onditlor1s of the averago 0rr.ployt•c regarded a3 a hnn1an being livin~ in a civi~i~ r-d < Jmn1nnj1 v. ~-\r;ain in 1909. rofer­rlng- to the 1-ivinfr wai-e. as it was ihen called. 11C said. ·• lt i5 nc'C'~':::.sary to ko_'p ~hi~: living wage n~ smncthin17, sncr0sanct he. o:1cl thn reach of bargainin~-." The basir

as we nm.- call it. should be established any b'trg-aininty. or any inf)uiry as

b~1C'0!1 is ncrcssarv for the "\VOI'k­

or not. ~\.gain in 1B09. Mr. Justice S,tid-

u If a nr• n cannot n1aintain his enter. pri~" without rni t1ng do\Yn the \Va.ges which arc ncre3sarv for tho \Vorkers

prise."

in that ent0qlrisc. it \Yould be he should abandon the enter-

Lmnbct,h Conference, L the hon. n1Prnber

C1oJvn-

quoted the for Fitzroy.

•· Th:tt tlw 1;rst Chrlstian principle of i'0Elllncration of labour is that the first

1· ~:l ,,c oD industn~ n1nst be reasonable r~re;· of pay and, <lec<•nt conditions for ~1w orkor::: engagPc1 iu that industr;v."

To ,'.~'CCTt i11 thjs e1u~iYe cost of livino· our j11dges in the court ~hich haYe not gone so far as

,1,Ft1c J J-Iiggin:::: WPnt oig.htccn years ago. and so fr~r as the Lan1bPth Conference

n_ncl, a~ I haYe pre­thc;-~ got into the groove

their energies-all their the cnr>rgir·:-_ and activities of

they got to assist them experts who ach-ised thoso com'­ancl ach-ist'cl other people·,-in

the one di rcchon. In thP initiatorv stages of this Bill, the hor~. member for }Iurilia, dnnng the cou1 ·0 of n1v 1·ernarke. askPd a, qucstioE by way of intm·j,;ction. but 'the limits of debate. did ':'ot permit me replying to thor quesrwn Without an explanation, Tbo hon. rrwmbcr asked. " Is it not a fact that the o;:;p[l_('ity of industry to pav is takPn into <'onsidcration under the av,-a;·ds made by the Arbitration Court?" The answer to that is this: The capacity of industry to pay iho wages don1a.nded by union representa-

[ilir. Ferricks.

ti ves in the court is taken into consideration sometimes; but at other times it is not taken into consideration at alL It appears to me th&t the court in its actual practice-I say this deliberately-in endeavouring to avoid an increase in 'vages haR taken as a pretext cithct· the capacity of the industry to pay or the cDst of livinz, whichever ~uited the court best.

JVIr. KELflO: That rs a reflpction on the judges.

Mr. FERRICKS: l 'vi!! give an actual illustration of that contention. This so-called Econon1ic Com1nission isstwd a report, and on page 32 of that renort, referring to thi.s question of cost of livi11g, it points out-

" The cost of Ii \·ing was gi·ven some 1:reight,"

This is the point to \Yhich I call the atten­tion of the hon, member for 1\unclah-

" and morl'OYcr, when in February, 1922. the court n'vicwecl the stctnclard basic wage and reduced it to £4, the rca~on given for the reduction \VRS not the r0ducecl capacity of the inclastry to· pay the a\Yard of £4 5s .. but the reduced cost of li Ying."

1 he court, when it reduced tho basic wage iu 1922. r;ay(' as its f'XCUsc-not reason­for -rf'ducing the wages frc1n1 £4 5s. 1 o £4 that the cost of living had fall'"'· and it did nu~ tako into con~iclcr~ttion in iH judg1nc·nt the n1atter of the incapacity or capacity of :nduotries to pay. In the recent appcctl to t'n'} ~Arbitration L\:,urt by tbe railv.ay c-rnplDyces just prior to the railway ~h·ike, when they sought to scc·.trc tho re~··.oration of the 5 per cent. \vhich had been taken off lhPir wages, the cnpacity of the industry to pu~7 \\·as stressed by }fr. \Yelch. the rcprr>­~t:'utati\·e of ·~ht~ CcnrH11issione:· for ~'' mcb effect that :\Ir. Justice W d,o l'estoration o-f the 5s. a \YOPk. The argu­r:.:ont used bv Mr \Vclch \vas that on account d the cap]tal of £56.000,000 ,·,-hich wa invc::.-:-cd in th(~ railwa' .. , there ~.,as an annual int0rcs·~ bill of £2,435.,000. and although tlw net reyenue harl doubled comnarcd ,,jth that of the prcviom yPar. thm·c: was still a shortag-e of £780.000 which wonlrl have to lw made bdme the raih\·ays r;ould be con­-,idercd as being in a po~ition to pa:,· the Pxtra Es. a wrck. After dcprP6ation, rC'placernents, _cos·: of working the raihray~, and ovqything· else had been road<·. the,,· want tlw intl'l'est on the .,-bole of ,-he capital im· ·,Jted before thcv will admi~ th<' c ihe industry has the c <.-parity to pa,y that 5s, As aga1nst Hw \YOrker. under tho mPthod which our Arbitr:· tion Conrts ha ';e denied hc•P0fits for sornc year.-:. past to the \Vorker~. it appears to be a p:ame of " IIe<cds, the crnploy(1 rs \vin; tails, thr> \YOrkers !o~0." That. has been thP actual positionJ bee "use' I think hon. nll'Inbcrs ·,rill r.'l11C'I1l­

bcr that the 5s. a 1v0ck was taken off in 1922 on aceount of the decn>a'' eel cost of l_iving, -<Jnd 'the reason v hy a Te"toration was :'efuscd just before the railway :-b·ike \Vas the inc<tpacity cf tho industry to pay. The court takes vvhatcYCl.' reason ~utts it 1-v,st.. That is a fact which has some bc.tring on the r~nb1ic service appeal boards ,_vhieh operate to-day. \Vhere long-sen·ice appointments, arc challenged ~he employers fall back on h1c;her efficiency. and when higher efficiency i,, challenged they will fall bad: on long service. That is bringing into <lisrepute thP system of 8.ppeal boards. just as the system of arbitration under the Industrial Arbitra"ion

Industrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill .. 1389

.Act does not ~njo~· 1 hn confitleuco of the '\nJl'krrs and tho~P cng·ag{'cl in connection '\\·i·:h it.

r hope· thai· """" DO<trd, \\'hen it is ,' ppointed. IYill ,:;on1c attention to the question of interest a11d dcprcclation which nhraYs is taken into consider~ jion and a1lo,~u1 to the employers under c.ur system of a,·hitration. 1 1n not going over that n::;-ain--I stl'c<:: Jcd it hero prcviously-·but I that if interest on capi~al i !:scs1 cd and depreciation arc :];ning to con-

to be allowed to the cmp1oyer in the Court) then equal irr'::crest or

_..:Tca-~ct· interest and equal dcpr::ciation or ,,.,.eater depreciation should bo ,dlowed on tho

d of ihP 1vorker. lion. n1en1bcrs ask me I an1 going to arriYc at the .-··apita1 Df the

I vn·~ going to take :he sa1ne ba,i-­ac the Chief ,Jmtico J\1cCa·•"lcv tooK in hi;;; notP:'i which have been publiShcd~anJ the E-;c'!"ornic Con1n1is::oion i11 it, report took

"1 Lo sar11e basi~- that is. the basis of ·'.:he income Tax Department and machinery. l.'nder our system of income tax payrncnb a taxpayer is allowed an excnl[)tion of £50 for c·ach child up to the age of 16 ye· rs ; conscqnPntly at the age of 16 thitt child has a ca:>ital ntlue of £800-an acc>.mulation of £50 for each year. ::'\obody <an f(ainsay that fdct, because the Income Tax Department ' dmih it. and allows the exemption accord· ingl:;. Then from the age of 16 to 21-a period of 5 ycar~-it is reasonable to assume that the charge of that citizen of Queensland r-r Australia is entailing the expense on sc•meone of £50 a year.

At 12.10 p.m.,

The Chairman of Committcc•s (Mr. Pol­lock, (hcyory) relieved the Speaker in the chair.

Mr. FERRICKS: That moans a total of £400 for fiye years-an entirely reasonable u•d nu"iorate estimate. The £800 and £400 mukp a. total capital Yaluo of £1.200 at the ag·p of t\l·cnt;>on\~. ~\O\Y considel' the case of

yu-nJJ:-., \YOinan rcquin~d at. the age of a nw.nufacturing

I contPml-I sav it is cli,pntcd-that the

her lnbonr i~ in CYC'ry rpspPct in utility and wealth pro· than tho £1.200 inn .ted

Bn;· thP employer comes t on his outlav :is

on thP co'·t Of a until the ea pit J.l

'let the

a':!

tioning an end, has hlku.

The argunlcEt npplie:-. as I haYC a lrcady to the depreciation of the hralth of tlw -w'QrkPL whos0 capitul is applied 10 that ·nachinc costing £1.200. Mr. Cahill. ef the An,tralian \Ym·korc' 'Gnion. rccentlv ~ought to haYc ~on1e allo\Yance made in th'C l\Ionnt l:-'n r:1se for th0 naturu of the Pmploy­IYH~nt, and he \VES on the right lines. ..AY,Unle that a Inar;hinc costing £1.200 ls u~<'cl ill 1ninin~; nt. :\Jaunt Ii'ia. The rnan \vho oncrates that machin<' also has a capital v~lne of ,£l.20u. Is the dcpr2ciation of his life not just as great as the depreciation of that machine; The faet remains that the present

flystPin of arbitration rvfu:Scs to gi·n? any consiclL·ratiou to that depreciation of hi:oJ life and to g;i Ye an.v nttPntion to the valtw tlte eanitrrl of the ''"ork0r in its annlicat to i11~lustry. ~"

During- the course of tlH~ discuhion on the E'timatc for the Court of Iuclustrial Arbi· t.ration. the hon. mcrnbcr for \Vindsor nderred to" sornc rcnnu·ks I had nlreadv l11<Jdl: on thesn lines, and he pointed out tha't. in lus op:niou tlw iuter0st a11d J.enrc"-'iation to \Yhich ~ Lallc•d a1teution ,,.(:re ah·oadv alJo'iT ,_d for other directions. I-1(~ l1lCJ~tiOnc.J tax. and ,,aid tl:at a man did not ltH'LE11C' tax on his c,q)ital unti1 be ;t "calth·producing-that he had to the results. I rcpb' t.h~tt the y;;n!"b_•r t;ct ha\"C to pay on his ll:_nnan r-tpi~L.d he· prc,~1lCC'~ ··ealth. Th{' hen. l1tl'Hlbcr

::•btPd ihat ihc iln-alid and olcl ag0 pensions JnaJ.p proy]sjon fm' the depreciation of lih•. SUl'L'lv the hon. lllcrube:.- had not ~ivL>n suffi­cient. considcraholl to that i1nport:n1t quc,s­tion or he "\Y0'11c1 llCYf'l' ha-.;,-p contcudcd that th(1 .pcnsiorl-1Yhieh i~• nu\Y £1 a "\\ 'i'k~v,ras ~;ufficient rccon1pcnsc for the ~:,·astag~ of a lnnnan life in the prolLtction of \YcaLth and th0 pione<>ring of this great State of Q·'""'H­land! It \\'US 11('Y11 l' intcnd0d as a compensa­tion in all tho ye•ar' it was adYocated bv tl"' I.~ubour party .. It ,,·as on]y intench•d 1~~1 be Rmne Solace for pPopJe in their old ag-e. Then the hon. ll1£'mber-quite honestly I _tn1 surD­::.:pokc about work€'rs' con1]Xmsation as being n. sot-off against. the non-payrnent at \vages for dPpreciation in health. Dut workers' r•ompcnsation is paid only aftl'l' the iPjur-~ i:-; clone. and in very 1nany cusc-:::; the injury ~~·ould lll'YC'r haYP occa!Ted had provision been made for t.ht' taking IJf preYen~,i~ , n'PasureR. Surelv th0 hun1:111 brain which 1 kno1t\" the hon.· n1Pmbt)r to po~~CS7•, surf'!:' his whole career and his whole constitution. do not lead us to think thai" he intended tn ~'tlf! 1Q."Cst for a lllOrHPlH that thD f(\W hundred pound.s ~~no··YPd to a man v.·lwn ::;u_ifprirlg fron1 rnincrs' phthi~is, for instnncc. is ~uffi"i0nt 1',-'"·

co;npen:-:c? ''"""c kllO\Y he do s 11ot think t.l1at-. \Vc1 know h0 d.irl not n1eun i i.lnd th t ·i~ ''":h I ~·l v ht' did Hot s.:1,-e sttfficicnt ,-·o::~ideratior~ io the argum£>u1 'he n~s.J on t}nt OC{'n.~iotL It i,c;; not eon1pcnsntion ro ~1 111111 \vho i-.; afflicted \i~ith minor'r- pbf',i:i.;. It i~ \Yhat b~1s hccn propPrls· f01'J;h1 d

to 0n ~0 a Hl<tn conh)ncl t}!<lt,

C'1lf

unjuct \Ynrkitlg' c:q1C'll"0S, rent, w·ao·r~

co~i of n1at('rial ar0 n 1lo\vf'd a:-: ~1 th0n a >imilar "ct·ofT ,Jwuld lw allm C'cl tn thf' \YOl'k0r. ·when droridin;-;: a::; to hi:'. en~~t ·(lf liYing. In th0 pa~t.. sl1am~fnl a~ it Hit_,.. sPnm. whPn the judp-rs hnvr- b0en C''C0r<~i~ing- thel" energies and :;;uppmwd ahilitl\ o; in this dir,··f'­tion towards asrcrtalning- the cost of Jiying-01' fixing- a baRic wage. they hav8 delved into all the matt~rs that I have mentioned and

Mr. Ferricks.]

1390 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

haw ailowecl a few shillings to the worker for tobacco, tram rides, Sunday newspapers, lodge m· union fees, and then awarded him an increase of 6cl., ls., or ls. 6d. a week. The report of the Economic Commission deals lengthilY with a case where an increase of ls. 6d. a week was allowed. The worker ili supposed to Le so constituted as to be very grateful \VhL·n such an increase j<e; n1ade. That might have been goocl enough fifty years ago, but it will not -do to-day, because the worker is entitlecl to something approach­ing the full result of his industry. If, as I ha.ve argued repeatedly, interest and depre­ciation are allowed the worker as well as the :>1nploycr. and the ordinary working expenses cf D_i!~ is ~l t-off against the ,,-or king expense~ of the oHwr, tlwn the profits remain. Tho ~"Iini:-.ter i11 his £-nccch quito fraFkly said that one of 1 he cYils of an increase granted j_, tlw Arbitration Court was that it was irnmedi;,tely passed 011. I rlo not know what provision is to be made to dPal with that rJ1attr.1r apart fron1 adn1inistering thf~ Pro­fi teering Prevention Act.

In rnentiouing price fixing, I must ad1nit t 11at :l,Ir. Ferry has done very good work iL Ycry difl-icult circnrnstancc~, consid_cring that in his efforts he was soycrely hemmed in. If the new hoard takes over the n1achinery of price fixing, it should cOntinue on tho ,p line'..; with wider and greater po\vers, and will do a grea tcr 111Lasurc of good. I do not think that that is a solution. As one who has TICY<'l' thrown his hat up over price ~!siu~;. bL•cau~c I believe it i6 a diflicult propo~ition, I rnaintain that the simpler and bc-it,''l' wav would be the \Yav I hn.v·e enu­lller(lt~d. ~If lntcrest and dcpref'iation is allowed on the capital of tho employee as '··:ell as on tll~ c~pital of the omployer, do you not thc11 sto that, if ihe n1anufacturor !ncrucsc-, the price of his output., his capital nlso i<:cre"se:< and the capital of the \\·orkcr inf'reascs as '"-ell'? He i~ giYi11g a greater :etnrn in Th(' t-xpenc-lituTt' on his labour by that greater increase of wealth as illustrated bv the incrcaso in the priv' of the commodity. Thqt b0ing: so, ·do you not see that the same indurerncnt is r0t there to inflate prices, bu a use the C'lpital of tho worker will come up in the mind of the Arbitration Court as well as the capital of the manufacturer'! This is quite distinct from the principle of prcfit­~haring which hon. n1c1nbers opposite haYe r0fPrred to in nreYio-.._Is debate;;, and which t hcv ' '-.- the'' b0lieve in. I do not believe the:.. ha.-e looked f•.dly into the question. The> systr;n thE,·~ bc1ievc in, a<:l. g1orified by t~wir bigger r0presentativcs outside, i"· that, '"hen t.hc nront on an article is 6d. the emplo) ecs Un1ong thPnl will divide ld., and t:Je pronriotor will take 5d. That is the t~·_'··cncc~ of profit-:::ha ring as prartised to-da~v. -YYhen the price of a con1 •nodity is raised the -work(~r vv1ll no\v f'hare equally to a ~rcater ext.~nt if I hnd my way-and the f'an1f' inrlncunent "-ill not obtain to jnflate pri:'C'R. ThP 1vorkee ,\-111 naturally ask th0 CJHestion, "\Yh'Lt will be th0 posit'ion if Jhc price oi a commoditv falls'!" If the worker "'a~ on an 0xaltcd \Yag·C. I suppose he wonkl have to feel the etfc. t of the fall in th.·· price of that comrnodit,·. aJways lworina: in mind that his wag-es cannot fall 1wlow t.hP basic 1-Yage and that his remunera­tion will become a first charge on the industrY. It must also be remembered that his wa.a:Ps nni't not fall bdow the dictum laid down lw Mr. Justice Hi'l'gins eighteen years ago-that, if an industry cannot afford

[Mr. Ferricks.

10 pay decent rates of pay an-d conditions, it must go out of existence.

:Ylr. KELSO: Do you believe in that·;

:\fr. FERRICKS: I do believe in that dictum. The. same dictum has been applied to certain industries in Queensland. I well rcm1·8nlbt:r \Yhen 1-vages in the sngar industry were ~d. an hour, or 3s. 9d. a day. The Labour partY. set about to secure an incre~se of that wage to 5s. a day, but dnect actiOn \Yas necessary to secure that u1crcase. A sirikc in the sugar industry occurred before that wage was agreed to. I also remember hon. nlen1bcr·~, opposite. and the1r fncnds Hl

the Fe-deral sphere, objecting to the wage in the sugar industry being increased from 4~d. an hour.

The SE;'RETARY FOR PUBLIC' \YORKS: The frieuds of tj1e Opposition in the Fc,Jeral Parliament waited on the Federal Govcrn­Inent and objected to the industry pt<~ying Ss. a dav.

::\lr. l(~RR: The raihva~~ eraployec:3 :Ltd to strike bckre they could compel this Go,-ern­rncnt tu pay thcn1 a !iy]ng- wag'.

JI.Ir. FER RICKS: Let m,- sho,:: hm' the fixation of prices ope-rates detrimentally to the con u1ner. Take the ca.:;;e of a 'v0rkor \Yho goes into D ... vvarehou~P to buy a pair of 6undav boot:; which cost. 302. He only want• t" pur.cha"' those Sunday boot· once a -. c~r. \Y (' will assun1e that the cost prtcf' of t11c hoots to tlw distributor was 25s. He sells the~ tn the wm·ker at 30s .. thc'l'<'hy making_ a profit of 5s .. CC[Ualling 20 per cent. vYo thn1k that i- " high comparati,-e profit for the d~Stnbu­tor to make. Take the same worker who has to invest 25s. a week for the purchase of com­modities to enable him to live. Assuming the sarnc profit is derived by tlw distribulor, that means that his profit 1s 20 per c.ent. for that one week. I am not contendmr· that this 20 pf'l' cent. profit goes into the pocket of the disi ributor everv week. but I am contending ihat the 20 'per cent. profit per wcc·k comes out of the pocket of the consumer. RO per ,,,nt. of whom ut hast are atf.ected by 1h' w o;es fixe cl by tlw Arb1tPJ10n Court. rrh" distributor does not pay tho:3C wag'C~) it is tho consumer who pays them. I Ynll admit that the distributor pays v;ages, brcak­agr cliscnunts, and_ has bad dcbb c~nd long­winded pa:.crs whrch are a dctrrment to him \Ye will sav that out of that 20 per c0nt·. nrofit ner wCck he has only 5 per r:=-nt. left. I do n~t think that is an exaggeratiOn. FiY~ nrr cPnt. on that 25:;. for on: IYt;ck amounts to 260 per C nt. profit OYer a penod cf fifh--hyo wccks-260 per cont. on that 25s. which the distributor laid out in the first 1; rPk for this com1nodity.

Mr. KELSO: It does not work out that way.

:'Jr. FERRICI-:S: I shall come clown fn.rthPr. 81v he r0reive~ 2~ per cent. 'Ve a;'e told abo;1t big bnsineeses being prepared to 'vork on djscounts. 2~ per c~nt. every wcc·k amounts to 130 per cent. for fiftv-two \\·E'ek~. I do not care who gets the profit; thP vit'll noint aboPt n1y argun1cnt 1s that it h8s tD be naid by the user, whose wage.:; ar~ fixed by' the Arbitration Co,t;rt. Tha~ is a, thing the m w Board of I radc ana Arbitration '"ill haYe to realise. There are far too manv distrib11tors all over om· State, ~~cl thP. inc1:ease must be stopped. They are springing up throug.hont our cities and subnrhs, a.nd they would not go mto tho brsiness unless the profit was there. Tho

Industrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1391

profits are there all right. My contention ;, that there are too many distributors, and that is a detriment to the increase of secondary industries and to the primary pro­ducer. There are too many wanting a share, a.;cd they spoil it for the w,hole lot.

From a perusal of the report of the Eco­IlOnlic Con1mission who \verc asked to go into nuestions advanced by the Arbitration Court· I am j11st a. little >tfraid that. if th<' members of this new board are going to f<Jllow along the lines laid down in that report. !hey may devote a little too much att?ntion, 0ffort, and energy in the endeav­<Jur to find what is n<JW termed " produc­tivitv." I£ we chase after productivity in t.l1c· C"1c1cavonr to place it on a basis. it will pr<Jvc just as elnsive as the cost of living h•v proved during the last few years .. Ta kc the qur·,tion of good >tnd bad years. r, •vill be a question of the capacity of an ir:dmtry to pay or the cost of living, which­< wr •vill m it the board. In a drought vcar in the west of Queensland an industry i-nay not bo productive to a great extent, but the men omplo:,'od in that industry, even in that drought. period, may be doing work of the most valuable kind on behalf of the property on '"hich they are emtlloc'ed. For ins-{ qncc. they may bo providing- accommo­dation for water or they may be subdivid­iu~:t paddocks, which is a grcut factor in tiding the stockowner <Jver a drought. Thr'r \Yo:rk is of momentous Yalue, but it eho,xs no productivity for that yrn. If the droug·ht kept on for three or four years, tho 0rr:ployePs v,'otlld be doing good useful work for the employer and for th~ State at large, but there would be no productivity shown.

:\1 r. KERH : How will they get their money?

:\It-. FERRICKS: The capital ya\ue of the holding is o,carccly affected by the drought. It is only a (Jassing spasm. I admit that it is a very serious one-one that brings te:·rs to a. man's p--;~cs. Bad rs a drought tnay Ln jn a farmlng ar0a, bad as it may appear when we behold the withering and \Yilting of crops. it is infintelv \\ :Jrse to seP stock d?in;.; all over a property through Yrant ot \Yater. I knov,· •7hat a drought n~ea.ns in a fn_rn1ing dist~ict, and I can appre~ e1_al"C'. Yvh~t 1t. m~ans 1n a lnrge pastoral d1stnct. But rt wrll be seen that tho capital ,,alno of those places is not rcallv leesened. bc,,amo reople 'will not 'buy 'in during drought llme and tho sellers will not attempt to sdl. You, l\Lr. Pollock. as tho repre­SPJltatiYe of ono of the most irnporta.nt pas~ tom! areas in the Sbte, will admit that the rce,n·cry after such a period is r('marka bly q nick and notjceablc.

The ho11. 11lC'!nbcr for J~nocrcrcrn. intcrieeted. "\Ylvrc• is the n10flC'~.- to c~~10 from i:o tl!Ce .vat;>." I would remind him that a

,essions ago. when the cat1lo [12.30 p.n.] industry was hit by a slump in

. mark0t p1:10e~. one lnt. ,tns adopted nnTvmg on the mdustrv was to obtnin

this Parliament :: concc -ion for the cattlr•-owning pastoralists. and nnothrr nlCaE-;;

~\-~:s t? rednce the ':·ages of the rncn cmp1o~·cd Hl the cnttJe rndustrv do\Yll to thP ·· ... }Iarvestcr 11 leYel of P.ightcen years ago-. :\o further ahead wore the workers cconomi­calh, than Judge Higgins laid down in his " Harvester" award in 1907. After th<> ~ea~ons and prices improve, and assuming that in the c:, cle of time-as must be the ca.se-the cattle market will atrain boom. Will the workers engaged in that industry be

given any extra remuneration over the award of the court for any sacrifices they may have made during dry years? Of course, that will not be considered for a. moment. It would b~~ considered revolutionary and commu­nistic to suggest that an allo;¥ance should be made to the worker, for the sacrifices made l,p· them through having to suffer a reduc­tion in the award of the Arbitration Court during· dry ;;ears.

The DEPuTY SPEAKER: Order! Th(' hon. member has exhausted the time allowed him by the Standing Orders.

:Ylr. TA YLOR (Windsor): I a.m c,uro we all I istened with very considerable interest to the address of the hon. member for South Brisbane, though I certainly think some of his ideas aro fantastic and absolutely impos­t~ible of achiev~._'lnent.

!Hr. FERRICKS : Your side said the same tiling a bout wag·cs boards a fe\v years ago.

~Jr. TAYLOR: The hon. mcmbPr spoke of what he called the depreciation of the worker. Is there no depreciation of the cr.rqlloyer? How are we going to assess that? Surel,y, jf there jg n, d('preciation jn the \Yorker's af'tivities and values, there must oc a depreciation also of the employer !

l\lr. FEHRICKS: Hear, hear! He gets it alluwed for his machinery now.

:\cr. TAYLOH: A man is using his brain power and all 'he effort he can possibly bring to lv,ar to carry on and direct a big businc~s. TiH• ,·.train on that man is very great. and the rnental strain mav be more severe on him than the strain on th(' pnrdy manna! V'orker; and it s·-enu~ to n1e to bo in1po~J"ible to <uriYe at any ido'1 of the rPlat.ive values

far as the two persons ar .. • concerned.

Then the hon. member spoke of a,n article in rcga rd to which there is a profit of 6d., the employees' share of that being ld .. while the boss gets 5d. That article i, not worth 2d. unlc~~ a third party cornes along to bl.l!r' it and put the value on it. VVhat are you gojng to givo hirn? VFhere doC's he cotnc i 1 in that profit? If he were not there with the mo1 e~· in his pocket to buy th•-' artjcle, the article is abso!utelv 'Taluelcss. Ho i~ one of the indiYiduals "who ha l helped to create the Yalne, and we want to comider thr-;o !natters in discussing an irnporta 1t Bill such at< this.

The hon. member referred to Mr. Justice Hi~;gins ,oaying that, if industry could not ptty a \iying wage, that industry should go out of existence. There i, another side to that qlw"tion. I do Lot believe fo1· one rnnn1C'nt that an;;· men or women shDuld have to work for rt ·lesser wage than will keep thrn1 in der,.•J'!t comfort, or even moro than ~loccnt comfort. I hold that a living wage B not the correct bnsi~. The worker should hrrvc n1orc than a. Jivin~ -,age; bnt von ltaYe to consider this: \Ve ha,:e g-ot indu_;;­trieb in Qnccnsland at the prrse~nt time­our G\Vn State n1i::1ing indu~try Jud the )fount }.f<?rg-<1n mine-wbich cannot produce t ~<lC: tnatf:nal the_, arc 11roducing and pay a hvlllg' or pro11cr 1vngc to the emploYee-,c :ng-agcd. I do not behove in ·wiping ouf a.n Indw~try bf'_,auso it cannot pay livi11g v, age; but ihP \V age c::tnnot in everv ],, . mnde a, direct charge on the' industry. If rt 1' m~do a di1:ect charge on the industry, 1t ,.,.,ll w1po the mclmtrv out: but thf) dif­ficultv can poesibly be met by some national sdremo of insura.,;cc for the ·payment Df the wage m that particular industry from some

Mr. Taylor.]

1392 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

fund raised for the purpose. We are pay­ing- at the present time in the Common­\Yoalth millions of pounds in old-age pen­sions, maternity bonuses, and othet' things. C\!Iv own opini0n is that that money could bettr ,· be diverted to some national scheme or insurance for unemployment and sick­nus. and that wages. which may have to be lcs~ than the basic or ruling wages . rn order to prc5orvo sorne particul~1r industry which is of value to the State snould CDme

some national fund. Jndustries not be dlowcd to go GUt of cxid·

we cannot pay the ruling rate n1_!.v bo 01Jlv a drea.nJ, bt~t

e,·er-vthing prr1ctica'lly has- ar1 f;'!conon1ic yu,lu~~. Ii, as the hon. n1CD1ber for South Hrisb~nP contended, the Board of Trade and Arbi1 ration has to consider f1Uite a lot 0 [ t'lesc things in framing its a.wards .. what will happen 'I It wrll be all n;o;ht 1f tno ,,-hole of the Commonwealth and the rut of the -world were doing o:1..actly the same: but unle,s the ¥:hole of the Commonwealth and the rest of the world are doing the same as the hon. member for South Brisbane would like to see done in Queensland, it will simply wipe .Queensland off the map so far as industry 1s concerne·d. At the pre­·Pnt tim<a our industries are having a pretty rough spin to hold their own. \Ye arc not out. on this side of the House t0 see the standard of living reduced in regard to our workus. Notwithstanding the charges which mav be made in that direction. we want to see· the standard of living maintained and improved if posJible; but ';V': have to take into consideratiOn the condrtwns wh1eh are operatmg not only in the Common-wealth, but in the world generally. "'1",\--e want to maintain our place in the Commonwealth and to do the fair thing- by every indfvidual in the oom­rnunity. Wo ahvays listen with FL consider~ able amount of interest to the opinions of the hon. member for South Brisbane. As one of th0 n1cn1bcrs of t.ho recent Pres.s Delegrt· rion to Quconsla.nd said, there has not onlv bu:-n an evolution so far as territorial fron~ tiers ure concerned during recent years. bnt there has been a revolution i" thought all the \>rorld over. \Ye have to recognise that c;-olution has taken place, and that what w>ts l0oked on thirty or forty yea.r9 ago a•3 a, luxury has become a need to-day: 1ust as ·vdw t are looked upon as luxuries to-day will be the needs of the people thirty OJ' forty years hence. We are living in a ''hanged era of society from what we were living in when we were boys and girl~. In Queensland aEd Australi t ,,-e are 0ndn~,\~onl'iJJ~ to solve thcsP. big f'conornic problems, and we cannot solve them in ten mirrcii< or a qnc;rtf'r of an hour. ~1i 11ce 1he­cessation of hoetilitios in the Great \Var \he ;·conornic pr?blon?s confronting ci \-ilisation naTP ot sucn a staggerng nature that the ver·v minds in the communitv find Yery ireat .difficulty In f'Olving "then1. People e;r:. '' \Ve must soh·e them. Ymt have to solve them in twentv-four hours.n J t cannot be done. So lon~g· n s 1 ':e arc llHtking <Ut hon£>!4t attempt to do it. I think we are accomplishing somcthinf(. \Ve have to rcalieo that our legislation. including thD ll'giJlation which we are co!"sidering to-day, affc·cts not only the present genPration. although they are a most important part Df our present~day civilisation. but also gene~ rations to come. Vve have to Yisualise con­ditions thirty or forty or fifty years. even

[ 111 r. Taylor.

100 years ahead; we have to think of the generations who will come after us and take onr places in this great Commonwealth. We have eo to legislate that they will be able to say that the men and women who pre­ceded them had big ideas and were inf!u­Pnccd hv the best of intentions towards t.:lo~e wh~ were to follow then1.

At 12.40 p.m., The SPEAKEil resumed the chair.

:\li'. 'J'AYLOR: I y;>es rather disappointed renu.trks of the X[inister when intra­the BilL I-Ic gaYe a very important of upinion:5 \Vhich had been expressed 2tate~m·en and politicians in yarious _'J.ustralia, using their opinions .as their breadth of vision, and indi­

cating they looked ahead and endea· voured to see what the future held in store. B:.n the hon. o·entletnan did not give us one einglc reason °Why he was introducing this Bill. I would like to have from him an answer to this question. " Doos he con­sider that the Arbitration Court has been a failure?"

The SECilETARY FOil PuBLIC \VOilKS: H<e does not; he said distinctly that he did not.

. ::\lr. TAYLOR: I am very pleased to hear rt,

The SECilETAilY FOil PUBLIC \YoRKS : I spent three or four mil"utes in recounting its benefits.

.:\1r. 'l'AYLOR: The hon. gentkman cer­tamly spoke of the benefits which the court has conferred-and it certainly has c0nferred benefits-on the community. I have no doubt about that. Until we had that unfortun.atB railway strike a few weeks ago Queensland had been verv free indeed from industrial trouble; and 'I think that was largely due to the fact that we had the Court of Indus­tl'ial Arbitration to which hoth employer 1md employee could go, bringing their case before a juclbe a::.c\ haYing· it adjudicated upon in a fair anrl impartial manner. I do not consider that the proposed change is going to prl'\ (cnt things happening in the future \Yhich haYo happenPd in the past. unless it i~ going to do U\vay \Vith this direct actio11 \Yhicl1 1~ the curf::e of Australia to-dav. There is r:o doubt that it is the cur·e. not onlv of Australia bnt of quite a number 0f D'ther <·o\tntries abo, and it _is als<:? certain 1hat. uu1c::::s IYC at·c to g(~t nd of It, .. .,·c are not. gojng to .adyance at all. The fairest and hest way of getting rid of it is undoubtedh­bY m:ans of a svstern of arbitratjon. I think that the }finistcr said that \VC on this sidl• of thP Chan1ber were opposed to arbitration. lie knm-.-s perfectly weH that that statemcllt J;;; uot correct. Vi..Fo aro not. Thoro is .ahYav~ one in an Arbitration Coul't ''ThiCh is satisfied with the award-that is 1 lw pc1rty losing; hut, by and large, they feel that thev are getting a fair go. and more than that they cannot expect. Personally I think that our Arbitration Court has donr c·xcrllcnt 'vork for Queen,land, and I am eorr)- to think that it is going to be wiped out.

Of course, I may be quite wrong in the idea I am about t0 express, and. if I am. I ~hall h0 ono of the first to admit it. I am still opposed to the appointment of lavmon cm the c-ourt. \Ve are goin<r to pay to 'thos·, laymen tho full salaries which W€ pay to the presiding judge, and no matter what common sense a. layman may have or what attention he may give to the discharge of his functions,

Industrial Arb1:tmtion [20 OCTOBER.) Ar~ Amendmen\ Bill.

I urta;nly think that ·se ar·e apt to gel a :better judg·rnent when the evidence is placed befnrP three' t.rained 1neu. l\Ioreover. if one

the Bill. he finds that the judge io to be the arbiter. he will still be the one practically will decide the matter.

The SECRET.\RY YOR PcBLIC \Y ORKS : On legal quesnons.

:\Ir. TA YLOR : Y cs. and on other questions the opinion of tbe presiding judge will prPdomlna.tP.

Mr. KIXG: He may be overruled.

Mr. TAYLOR: There is alwaq the ch,wce of his bein.s; overruled. I underStand. in r'On­

n<>ction with the Unemplo::rncnt \Yorken' Insurance Act, that the reprcsenhtiYC' of the emplo:·ee on the board is c;t'\ected hv th0 trades unions and the repr•ccenta·:ivc of the employer is selected by the emploYers' organisations. I 'vould like to kno·w fron1 t.l1e ;\1ini-ter wlwtlwr a simihr method of seiection \vill be adopted in this case'?

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC \VORICS: ::'\o.

The PRE:IfiER: The old wages board -sy3ten1?

:\Ir. TAYLOR: Xot exactly. The "ages 11x1rd sy, '-cn1 for a tinu_' was qui to all right. I consider that these appointments should b0 free from the slightec<t taint of politics. vVe want both parties to have confidence in d·bitration, and once that c:onfidence is

fndei't0d, I feel sure it will not. work in the tlc,irable way that we all wish. .\rbitration had not· been practised for manv Years in c\ustralia, and it has been a dilh.wit matter to persuade all parties to see th0 "·isdom of th<> arbitration method. I would have liked ~n ;See ~omething in the Bill to guard u~ in the future against what I call this cursed ~Jtrert action. In ..._.\ustr._tlia cErf'ct act.ion should be an unheard-of thing. '\Vhat is hap­pc•ning ihroughout Australia to-dav' I am :10t going to say who is to blame. but prac­tically from one end of Aw,tr:dia to the other our shipping is held up. 'l,o-day at tbe wool sales 45.00(: bales. probvbly rqwe· ·.'nting a value of £1.000,000 to £i.250.000. r re to hP offered for sale. \Vhat i goiw·· to 11 'l_ppen '? It will be carried a\vay in forZign ships.

Mr. PEAsfc: O"·ned b:; the Inchcape group.

:\h. T.\YLOR: Thcv arc not owned by ·rl1e Inchcape group. ·

I\Ir. PEASE: Thev are all in :ho ship;>ing <_·_•lnbine. ·

?vir. TA YLOR: The \vool will be carried \•;ay in foreign ships, '\vhilc our n1en \Y111

nnt haYe an Ollportunity of earning the the,, should be earning-. That is not

only serious position. \\' ool. like many connnodities. fluctuates ~n vaJue. und, tra11sport servie0 is held np and 1N001

i:: retained in .. Australian for ,a lon~.,. :ime. the con"equ(•nces may tha.t it may DYn \'O n1 London after a seriou.:; fall in the n1arkct.

:Y1r. PEASE: \Yhat is the Commonwt'alth Shippinp; Line doing?

::\Ir. 'I'A YLOR: Hold your tongue. (Langh The Commonwealth Shippirg Line has strangled and bled to denth by the

Seamen's Union and bv strikes. If th~ hon. member wants to kno"· what has happ0ned

, to :he Commonwealth Line, l can inform him that there is no iine of steamers trading to this c01,mt,ry that is subject to more indus-

1925-4 R

trial trouble and more strikes than t.hat 5i-dllC Commonwealth Line. If ever a Gov­'·1 nmcnt were jn~tified in getting rid of the blessed thing-. the Commonwe~li h Gov<Crn­rnent were. Th-e job control which \l<ls L·een f·~~ercised in ('Onnection with -:hat hne r~~ a. (~isgtoce to the inclustria.lists of Austr 1lia. ~fhr~ Au:;<tralian Shipping Line of steamerP. was started for the bPncfit of rite people of \ nstraEa, and \Yas dcsi'.~·ncd to k0P1l do"\Yll

fruights. \Yhnt happ0110cl: J oh ··ontrol and :--~ ikc'3 took place frmn January t J J)Pccn!.ber t!ntil the line con]d not opera!-e and thP ( ioYC'rllnlt>nt had no alV•rnative h11t to throw i·he lin0 on to the scrap heap and get rid of it.

~Ir. PEASE: Jl,fr. I-Iughes said that ~he iine Y.-as a good in"~". estn1ent.

:\1r. TA YLnR: Tlw Commow' calth Ship· ping Lino ,,-as a gcJd ln\-c:3tl11l'l1i~ when th\' ~1eimen~ wc•-rp bought, and did 0xcolleni.. work. It would haYe continued to function excellently for Australia to-day if it had had a fair chance, but that fair chance \\-as dcuir-J. iL (Government interjections.)

The SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! Mr. TA YLOR: I was drawn off th<• track.

but I will now got back to the principles· of tlie BilL The leadn of the Opposition pointed out that there are quite a lot of things expected of the Bonrd of Trade for which provision has ~!ready been. made. The court hos a sphere ol great achVIt.v before 1t in that direction. \V<• want to find out the exact condjtions undf~r 'vhich indn~tr-.:,7 is working·, not only in Queensland but in New South Wales, Victoria, and thp other State;. and in other countries in the worl•J that send goods into tho Commonwealth. \Ve shall then b0 able to find out th" weak spots in our i!1dustrjes, see where \ve faiL and wherp other industries supersede our own. and in case::·. drive n:;< out of buslne::;~. If that can he accomplished by the Board of Tp<k, then ""''ellent \\'Ork \Yill be done. The GoYernment have decider! to appoint laymen to the bench. I hope th<•y will seo that both <'mplo:.'N'S and emplo'·ee viill have rer)}'esentation so far as tlv~~(' 1ayn1cn are concerned.

OrPO~lTIOX :.\TC:\lBERS: Hear. hear!

?.fr. TA_,-TJ'J11: ]:-; a fair in H1is confldP~~c: othcn,-lse.

That is a H \Y0 ask for. Ir and if ttr ~t1on i~ nn id

Bill ·.'.'ill g-ive f£1'~ tter people of QucCn~LJIHl than

The PRE1\Il\<:11 (Hon. \Y. ::'\. Gillie-;, l::arhaln) (<.;·ho. or' rising~ 1\-as ~'Prr~iYcd ' ith ( ~oYc-rnmont chc ':-::) ~aid: I to rake this opportunit:-- in f.:pc'lkir:; on impor-tan' HilL I wi;h to make it dear to all .and sunclr-: tll'tt np· ren1arks jn refe_·0nce to tho Full Be:1ch of· the Arbitration Court. in mv sperch on the recent railwa;.· strike. were no't in an- \VU v intended to conYCY anv vote of CPllsu{'e or~ any l1nproper n~fleCtion~ on their Honour,, 1\Ir. Justice J1,1ncnaughton and Mr. .]w:tice Dongh1-:, the .iudgcs composing 1hat com·t. Both of thee judges s,.wd very high in lllv estimation. and the fact that in mv speech I s:tid it 1vns rH ,"'f'ssar~- to ror:::;idP.r and improve the Arbitration Court could not hH taken by those g·entlemen as in any way reflecting on their ability, integrity. or honour. I wc.nt to make that quite clear, as I understand that certain newspaper reportH conveyed to one of those gentlemen bv the report of my speech a meaning which certainly was not intended by me.

Hon. W. N. Gillies.]

1394 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill

I regard this Bill as possibly the most important that has been introduced this session. and if it accomplishes wh>tt the Go­vernment intend it should accomplish. it will de• a great deal to r0habiiitate arbitration in the minds of the people of Queensland.

i\Ir. KERR: Rehabilitate it?

The PRE:\UER: Yes, rehabilitat.e it. be< a use it has been criticised unfairly.

:11r. KFcRR: By whom?

The SPEAKER: Order! Order!

The PHEMIER: It has been stated again and agnin by the Tory Press of this State that the action of the nrcsent Government has destrovod the confideJlCe of the poop!.: in arbitratior).

;\lr. TAYLOR: H0ar, hear! So it has.

The PREMIER: That has not onlv been said in our own State, but also in the Sonthern State•:. \Vhat arc the attacks made on the principles of arbitration?

;\fr. CoRSER: By your own men.

The PREMIER: The principles of arbitra.-1ion arc a-; abBolutely sound to-day as ·,\·hen the Labour party placed that plank in its });atforrn fiftPen or twcnt_' years ago. ThP Labour party as a \V hole is plcdgt~ll to and beliPYCS in the principles of arbitration; but it. becomes uceessarv frorn tinlC to ti1ne to in1proYc legislation t'hat is ])a~scd~ other­Y,'i~c Pnrlia1ncnt could be~ d1s:-::olved. Every­on<• reali;'><~s ihat, when a Land ~4._ct is pas~ed, the last word has not bL'Pn said in r0gard to land administration. The same principle applies to main roads. H cannot be con­knded thai when a :\-lain Roads Act is p<tssed it rcprcs':'llt~ the last. vrord in a main roads policy. If that were so, it would not be Ill'<'CS'"ary to arnend lPrri-.lHtion f!·on:1 time to ti::_J('. - '-' -

It is no reflection on the present judges that we arE~ IlO\V <;Jl11Pnding arbitration lcgis­J~ltiou. In H!:V op1nion v-..,-·e are nnl:v bringi11g thE, law of arbitration up to date.

I shall now rnake son1c r('fcrC'nce to the co~r. of arbitration. Onr a.rbitration law and our A1·bitn.tion Court affect. not only iudnstr.,~. ~_ut C'YCry n1an. \YOrnan. und child in Queensland. On tlH• one band, the dePisiml nf the ,\rhitrntion Court mav d<".trov an i11dt1stry; on the other, it may· bring niisery 10 t h(· home.;; of manv \VOrker3 of tl1is State. Thnrdore the Arliitmtion Cour ;s of 1Plpnrh1 DC'P to (•n:-rv rnun. "\YOn1an. and child in this "tat~. \Yhcrcac last · vc. r onh ':10.590 ns snent in arbit.rahon·. £107,73~ W3~ :;:pt'nt on ~he Suprernc and other rourt::. which conC'r:rn inilividuals only. If von take into consideration t.he police fore', which cost £ 197.483. th 't makes a total of .£605,215 ::prnt on the ordinarv adn1inlstrn­tirm of iu~tif'r in thi~ Stat0 ru:.· nr~_tin:::.t onh· ,£10.580 sncnt on arbitration. The question nf nr;1itrn1inn aft' et--; thP 1ve!l-bPing of eYcr:v man, IYG"'l.:."\r,, flnd <'hild in this State. and to "m1c I'XiN·t. it hns b0en nc-,-le~t.ed. '\Ve hpli('\"(' ~ll 1h0 nrincip1c~ of ~JJ·bitrr~tjon. ,, ... 0

hr,lin·e th>tt arbitr>Jtion ffccts all the people. :'nd th~~t it. f'nn l10 ~t,"C'nQ.·then(•d, and th<Jt. h,~ this Bill it will be strengthened, particularl,,­hv ih0 apnointment of hn1 lavmen to sit in rnni·nwtioJ1 ""~\~ith f-l 1ega.1 n1an .. <Jl1 the bcncl1. SPJ'eh it -,,·ill not he ar,;ruorl in this c·car of nnr T.nnl thnt a lawvcJ·, no matter how he Tnav be etnalifi0d for his profession. is ab1o t0 corn- od. the duties of en Arbitration Court jnd<To if he has no knowledg-e of indm­t rv 8 nd h2s no 0XDPric-!1ce ~n the various

[Hon. W. N. Gillies.

industrit':' of this State. and has r~o k:novdcdgo of men! Just became he has been ' brilliant lawver. ancl becausP h" has uualified for appointment as a judge of the. Supreme C'onrt.. it does not follow that he IS capable nf ,,.ljqdicatin.; on questions affectint:r the wPJI-lwing and actual existence of thousands of \':orkc·rs on the one hand and of mdustry on thP other. That· argum0nt cannot b<> sup­port<'d. I heliPYe lhe apnointment of lavmen with a know!cdg0 of indw,try. with a know­l<'d<;P of men, with sympathy for thl' workers nnd for indn:;:tri{1 f:.. and a dc~irc to Rf'P Qucf'JF­

land a great pro~n0rous ronntr:v \YilL if ,~-1"~' '"('lertions arP mnrlc, do n g-rf'at deal to estab­li,h a.rbitration fnyourably in the minds of t>w neople, to establish industrv on the one lPm<l and to giYc a fair deal to the workers on th0 other.

\Yith ff'f;ard to th0 l0::-t<1ing- article which nnprnrs in the •· Conripr'' to-day in connec­tion "-ith 1h<' ]atP Clii0f ,Tustiv MrCawie,,, T ttkr' this opporhlllib of sa:;:ii~g that the !n1c C'hicf ,Jn•ticc ::VlcCa,··lc:· chcl · c;rc.1t "r'J'\·icc' to this count:·.\·, nnd. whf'n he- nnsscd a~yay, \Yf' lost 0110 who,c p1a~f' ,,.P ~hall hav~~ r?T0at diffirultv in f!11in~:t. I-Io yy;_q n g-rea ·P1'l11 Vi.'lth a bio- hrnin. Hn po~scs~cd f'XCC}l-

1-·~na1 qnaliric~"tion~ to fill the pos1tion n£ P!'f'sidPn1· of thf' .Arbitration Court. Strange to :3aY, the '' Conrif'r." whirh to-da~v pay:: a (Trt'!'lt. 0own1iml'nt to thf' df>CPilRe>rl ['"'f'ntlcman i~1 its leading a1·ticlc. was among those. who ho\Ylc-d for his rPino-ral v:·hen he \Yas a,nno1ntrd to ihat position. a!•d enpportcd tl· o whn took th0 cas0 to tlw Pri\'Y C:onncil · ·ith a Yi('W to hnving hin1 rf'movf'd frnn1 the bPneh.

The sanJe thiug has OC'C'lHrf'd in ronnPction \Yith others of our great 1ncn who are no·.,, landed to the skips. :'1/Ir. Al'drC'W Fiohee to-daY i> landed to the ski<>' as a c;rcat inrlu~trinl !eadcr. J'hat pame Anclrcw Fisho" had to walk the sheets of G)·mpic •mahle t<; f2Tt a job: and, ~~\hPn PrimP l'(;lnistPr o.t \H~tra.lia. he W'<JS flrsrribed b~· the Tor:, Prp:;:s

as an cxtrPmid. of the worst tvpe. But th<' sanw p.'JWr which criticised the iotP Ch1cf ,Jllsticf' }1cCa\Yl0:V aud -:\lr. Andrf'IY Fu::hf'r :;:o ;:(]\ t'nt•lv no\\"' raises both thc~e ~('ntlf'n1Pl1 !<Y th•· hi•,lwc,t pinw cle. T menhon tL t m na,,~in:-!' br"nnse it j,.: ,~,-ell to Yf'J11(:'mber th~· :;tt~tudC' of the Prrss and of po1jt:ci:r.~s wl:r; al \YDYs onno:o:.c 1ll'Of!T('S"' and refc <'TilRtiOJL

,Tn~t a frw wor~is iu rP~a-rd to the Bili it~0l f. I cornrlin1£'nt tho 1.\Ilni::;tcr in~ intro­ducing this BilL He should be proud. and

aav :rviinister f.lhould be proud, to [2 p.Irt.] hP" as~/)ciated \\·ith a DiU. of

thi~ ch<lractPr. I behevP it ,,·ill :1CC'Oll1plish a \)'ithout ,~ n.\- to t ne sc!~t or arC' ;rH•n1bcrs of prcc:_cnt Conrt-thc appointment of k1101,vlE'dgP of industr~v, o[ Queensland.· ,-ith a 'l"cl_ ,, ith that Lro,·d s· ml_oatln­Ral'y !-o encourage inaustr:,~ and den•lorunrnt. and nt th0 ;.:amP ni-sr, \Yhnt is often not rf'rO(.!"ni 'd nn oth<'r side of the Houo·"-that i". tha.t the v.·oJ·kin~~; n1an J~u his rig-ht~. I , .1v tl•:-tt an nn!.' nch.Ytent of th~ Arb~trntion and thr ~i-rr-ngthr-nin7, Df that rnnrt th~~ n rn10i ntment of lny judg-e<;' a long way towards bringing R.bo:1t peD• . ThP court will h~vo ~,,·idcr pO\Y· ~·~ and \vider dutiPs. Jt ''"ill lHtYe jnchcia] ,s "\vcli as admini3tratiYo powers. It will have all the po,ycrs of the present Arbitratioll Cour~ with those additional powers, and it will

Industr~:al Arbitration [20 OcTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1395

have a legislative mandate to get at par­ticular facts with regard to industry. The more important thing is. first of all, to know what the facts are, and then to be able to adjudicate on the evidence when the evi-dence is 'complete. It has been said that one of the flrst duties <1f an educated man-this certainly applies to any man holding· an important administrative position-is that he should never come to a conclusion until all the evidence is in. The Arbitration Court as at present constituted is unable to get a.ll the c:vidcncc. \Yhat cvid0ncJ is required'? Thm·o is a kind of secrecy displayed by c>mployers generally. The worker has noth­ing to conceal. Ilo has no a~'~cts and no p1;ofits. As the hem. member for South Bris­bane said, he cannot disclose any profits and he eannot eoncea.l any profits, because hP has none. But there is a want of frankness on the part of employers, and that want of franknes0 cng·enders su~~picion. Sometin1es the worker imagines that he is entitled to a great deal more than he is entitled to.

I am going to make reference in a few moments to a work by Professor Bowley which is llO\Y a classic. But. before I come to that. I want to '~y that it is impol'tant­and the Bill so provides-to giY-e the legisla­tive pc11ver to the new board to g-et at all the essential facts t.o set up a statistical bureau to collect all the evidence. to utilise the present Hcgistrar-Gencral . for that purpose, to set up industrial boards and ~nbsidiary shop con1mitices, to encourage f'fficie:ncJ') to encouragl~ co-operation between Pmploy~r and employee. and to take over pdco fixing. It is quite logical that the authority \vhich fixes the wages of the worker should endeavour also to fix the things w hi eh these wag·cs purchase, otherwise the fixation of \va.ges is more or leP.s farcical. I agree \\Tlth t h0 hon. rYlf'n1bPr for South Bri~banP, and I baYe .·~}cl so n1any time~ in th1:3 1-Iouse, that pricf' fixing present~ n1anv diffi­ulties. It is not the be-all and encl~all of even the "ages system. It is not a wlution oi the ages systerr1, becauP.e it is ~_~ifl1cult to fix the prices of some articles. If you f!x the price on the cost of production, whose production are you going to accept­that of the man with the hoe or of the man with up-to-date machinerv" If YOU fix a liYlng \\ :1gc for the rnan ~vith the' hoe, then you allmc.~ the man with the up-to-date machinery to make a fm·tunc. If. on the other hand, you fix the cost of production of the man '.cith the most efficient machinerv and plant, :·ou push out the man with the hoc. The wh:1lc thing bristles with difficul­ties; but that is no reason whv this Bill 'hould not contain powers to tak€ over price fh.ing. It will be necl'ssary to set up a staff L'~d to spend a gTPat ·deal n1ore monev than ].:; being ~pent at the pn~sent time on a'rbitra~ tloll if it is going to be a success. I S'l:V that 'ncrea,cd expenditure will be justified, because the on!v alternative to the arbitra­tion system is di rcct action. \Yhile there are people in the country. both employers and cmplo_tep~_ vvho agTPO in direct action. the gr<'at bulk of tho pcopl0 in Australia agrcP with arbitration \vith all its fftults ancl all its shortcomings. The object of this Bill is to ov0rcomo some of those shortcomings. to minimise some of those faults, and bring it up to date. It b~conH~s Decessary eycr~v now nnd again to bring legislation up to date.

I want to say one or two words abou' th<e sharing of the "profits of labour. First of all,

I wam to say that the term " over-proUuc-t ion" is not to be found in my dictionary. There is no such thing as over-production ,vhile there arc millions of people unftble to o·ct what thcv want in the way of food. ~lathing. and "housing. We could do with a urcat 1na.nr more hou~es, better clothing, and better feeding for the people. It is the want of proper organisation and distribution that shoulrl b~ dealt with instead of over­production. There is no such thing. as oYer­production-it is under-e_onsumptwn-ancl undcr-consun1ption, too, which. IS very often ('auscc1, bv the low purchasing pO\VCl' of thC' majo1;ity of the people. Therefore arbi­tration has a big 1-ield for Inve"bganon the~e. \Ye want to encourage, Qnt only. greater efticiencv on the part of the worku, but Q"reatcr "efficiency on the part of the employer. This ccw be done by co-operatwn. and It can be done \Yith the aS'istance of thi, new tribund.

I just \Vallt to mention that Lore~ Lover­hulnle~ancl no one \Ylll descr1be hu~1 ,t::; a Soriali-.t. an extremist, a Conu11Ul11S.t. or: one wl1o brlievccl in the over-indulgence of t.hc \Yorkcrs-declar-cd that ono day's work 1;n week by all wnuld produce all that was necc'3sarv uot onlY in -regard to th0 neces­saries of '!ite. hut the luxuries of life. When one o·ue~ into the quc~tion nnd rcali~es the trPln;ndou-s waste of thP present ~ysh~nl and the lack of 1any incentive to ,encouragP greater efficiency on the part of tnc w:n·ker ~nd. in rnanv cas·PS, on the part. ot the manufacturer,' it will be rea_liscd that thP present ~y':Jten1 is 1nost unsui~~b_le, boc_ause it. does not encourage greater erhciency mther oH the part of th<• worker or on the part of the manufactur<•r as both arc afratd of 0\~Pr-production, which I declare to be under~ c:onsun1ption.

In thr l:nited States, O!le of the most hin·hlv c]c,·eloped countries in the world. Mr. H~ E·. Gaunt, one of the forem?st wdustrtal ex]wrt,. s~id that the prodncbon was only equal approximately. to 5 per cent. ?f the n.Ltion:~ nctnal capacity to prodnrr>. That 1s p;Ding a littlP bit hutbcr .than Lord L~ve~·­lmlm<'. but the fact remams that no Arln­trnr;on Court has eyer :vet been able to get. [ire•t of n ll, at the actual \Yealth produced or the po,ciblc \vcalth proauction.

The recent body appointed l1y the Court of Indu~tria] Arbitration iu Queensland PrriYt:d <•t ,, rtain conclu .... ions. but- to detPl'-mi.nc wl1at tbe -ycn1th of a S~a.tc i.;; and diYidf' nurnber of "\vorkcr,:::. 1nto tJ- 1t total aud in1aainc that. the result r·f'lll't'-~cnts the \Ya \~·hirh f'hould b. pa i(1 to tho;;::c \Yorkf'rs a The ool ind:Js· tr\· for lnshn1cc. rna v a.blc to lHt:: h'."lCC as' 'nnwh n,:; the co11PCr Inining lndu::tr.\·: ,A \Y:l~·c which ronld br> crmfortab1y l1? .. !d_ l):V

thr> \Yool-raisino· indn5tr~~ would ah.:;oh'tt>l~­cripplc ~:1nd destroy the ;11ining indnstfy. so that that rnlc of thmnb cannot be adopted. although I knmc· it. i, bl'lic-ced b,· 'orne that. if \YC ·take the \\;hole wrn,lth of the ~ta.te and diYide it b~ ibc :1un1ber o~ \vork('f~ v;e ,]:'" 1! nrriYc at a rea· Jnable wage, after rrwking allovvnnrP for rpnt., interest. and profits~ Any court ,_·hich applied that rul<' of thumb \Yould be of no use to tlw workers or to the State. In Arncrica rerontly- I a.n1 not going to say that a similar result would be discovered in Qu0enslan.d or .\ustraha­but in America, 0110 of the most up-to-date countries in the \Yorld frorn ·a n1anufactur­ing point of v-ie\v, a con1n1ission was recentl) appointed by an employees' organisation,

Hon. W. N. GiUies.]

1396 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Ameniment Bill.

the Federated American Engineering Socio­tif·'·· for the purposp of inquiring into the canses of waste in industrv. After an exha-us­tive inquiry, the rommi~sion allo0ated the relative measure of responsibility for waste in inc1u~try in this wa,y--

Waste Waste InclLH:-y ::ltudicd. tlue to due to

Employers.; Employet

ver ~~nt. per cent. l\Ien's Clothing }f;mufarM •·' 1\\

turinL': lluildin" Go 21 Printing UJ ~t\ Boot and Shc~u 1\lanuiJ.c- j;J 11

tu ring :31 9 lVIetal Trade

Textile :J.lanufacturing 50 lU

I arn uot going to say that the con:unission was al;-sol utc]-- unbiased, but those figures go to show tlt_at. although a.. cry iB raised from rin1e to bme that work ts not efficwnt -as I ~ay, the whole systen1 under. which ·wc live does not encourage efficiency~ according to this commission, whilst the ern1Jloyeep, \Vere !'Csponsiblc Ollly ~Ol' . front 28 pCl' cent. to 9 per cent. of losses lll mdus­try, the loss for which the employing side of the business was responsible ranged front 50 per cc,nt. to 81 per eenl, I do not say that tho,e figures would apply in Queens­land, hut I do say, with all due respect to those who critici"e the worker, that there i' room for greater efficiency on the employ­ing :;ide. A proper system of organisation would benefit both tho employer and the employee, and that should be the object of this IH~1 · organisation-to encourage effici­ency in every possible \Vay~bccau:-.e. 1 rept>at, in any properly organi~cd state of society there is no such thing as over-production. \Ve find Olll' industries langui~hing because they e:Innot get a 111arket for the~r pro­durt~. The soldier sPttlcrnent a.t llcerbur­rum {<=JiJe,d large-ly bt.:'12a.use of the price obtained for the product of the land.

:.\Ir. KERR: "~lPry inferior land.

T.:1c• PH.E-:.1.IEi{.: -~·-6. I adn1lt ._hat tho land a,-. of very infl~rior qu tlit.y. The 51.000 acrcc of lanrl lt<wdcJ over b,- the Common-.vealth Govor,nmcnt to t.hc "state GoYernme11t for •,'Jldiers' 6otth-':'Jl1C'nt purposes ·were \ C'l'.", inferior land.

l\Jr. }~_ER-': That i . ., Ycrv u·_ft1ii', 1_-oP. pnt then1 there. -

T~1 PRE~liJ.:l'{: Aftu· all, hw c,-,,r. it vva:-; chca1) Ltnd, i1 IYUS dose to a11d it ,,[is snbject to no ]WtJtS

At the n.me time, if th~ conld ha,~e secured a price enabled them to fertilise that land. ir could ha Ye been nHtdo a success by n1en \Y ho were cape,b]c of making a success the land, particularly in view of the that the British l~ovcrnmcnt spend willions awl rr~illi-on1s. of pounds in i1nporting fruit fron1 ail DVPr the <vorld, and onlv £750,000 of that money c-omes to Australia.· The whole ques­tioa is one of finding markets and organ­ising. and not one of over-production. Ruskin's definition of labour holds as g·ood to-day as when he gave it thirty Dr forty _y·ears ago-

" Labour of good quality of any kind includes always as much interest, intel­lert, and ·feeling as will fully and har­moniously regulate the physical force."

[Hon. W. N. Gillies.

It. is quite true that, if you expect to get the Yerv !Jest out of a 1nan, vou 1nust bo prc­par'ed to gin} hirn, first ;Jf an, reasonablo reward for his 1ln1e, energy, and intereiSt, and guarautee that he will not be thrown out of employnwnt. I submit that the present Bill giYes all the power> that are necer,,a.ry to enable the boa re! to do all those things which art~ sa11c1 ioned. If the ncces::;ary ffioney is srwnt and an efficient staff is appointed to find

of ail what the wcr,lth of the country <~nco~Irag-cnwllt is given to people~ wh.o to . ..;tar[ in l.if'\V inchl:-;triPs, and 1f

Pll<'OHJ·a;Pn1cnt to produce ·Jit.h the greatr~t is gi,·ca both to the employer and

•:·, a gn ~t J,,al will be accomplished. the board can n1ako an awar·d that is

worth an,·rhiJ:;£ to this State, the first thing i:: to flnd out ..__hov~<' inuch ealth there is iu the particular industry. \Ye 1night picture tht• Hationnl income as a hl'ap of wealth. It h 1> been said that under tho prcso11t sy,:tcm thNc are iin> claimants to that heap of v;•·1ltil. The worker should come first, heeau:SP he i:-; of the n1ost importance. Then tlwre i> tlw quntion of rent. IV e cannot g-et avvay froru rent under our present systen1. Then '"'' ha"" the question of interest.. We haye not been able to deal with the usurer, and cannot deal with him nnder an Act affPcting Qucpnsland alone. Then there arc profit,. and taxation by the State. Those arc tht· fiYe daimants to the wealth produced in this c,1tmtn·. and tl t; worker has the first daint becath3E'. hP js n1ost important, brcause hP ha~ a :-;oul. and because he has a body.

"lr. KERR: There is nothing left for the otl!Cr fdlow.

The PRE:HIER : I am quite prepared to admit that under the present. coystem the worker ha' to look for a boss; but I have b0en talking co-operation all my life, and l hope tha1 in the not very far diotant future th<> workPr will be able to co-operate and cstaLli -h indu:"tries of his own, if only in a sm '11 ',Ya,·. It has been said that it does r:ot pa· to 'srnrt$in a small vvay, but I ~ay jt does pa:.-. T'h(~ f arnlel' has den1onstrated ·.hat cun be~ clone b.,- co-operation~ and tho 1-Vork.:::r." <'Ill! do a great d(•al nndc'r that sc·,!ccn. It will be r)ne of the fnndiom of enc ut:::'-1'.- authority to oncoura:-J~ co-operation. I <:1 r~0t l', i"h to ]fl hour this qnr~tjon at any ·;real le11gth. but I desire to cell attention tu ur,; who has end ea \'Oured to find out \Yhat 1 ·1tl.n1ull '\\·pa lth i". Professor Arthur Do , le. \d1o is Professor of Stnt.i ·lies in tlv~

of London, publish:d a book just ar, ln "'Xhich he' pointed out--·

not (!!H'sfioning his fi~TlH -that tht~ ilH):"t intpo;_·rant thing jn n uy country J;;\

to asc:'rtain "·hat th0 nation>tl \'YCnlth is. It i.s import~nt that the \rbitml ion Court ,,hould. kno"· "·hat is the total ,-alw of wealth in Dln: indnstrv. and ,vhat the nroduc·.:.ion j, bt.>r'ol'n !'YC'll ~ atten1ptin~ to bring in an o.w.nd which will be of anv Lisc to the workers or tho en1ployors. PrOfessor Bovdcy in his book. 'vhich is 110\V a cl a~ -,.,ic, pointed out that if the total wealth of Great Britain "0re divi-ded after allowing for rent and interest, it would only a !low of a net wage to the head of even- familv of about £170 per ~nnurn. \Vhat he did ·demonstrate was tlw m>!JOrtancc of ascertaining what the national wealth is.

It is not only intended to find out what the total national wealth is, but it is intended to find out wha.t each industrv is worth, what tho production is, and by' 1hat means

Industrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1397

ascertain what the share of the worker is. It has been said, of course, that to mea'tu·e the movement of wealth or li<tbility while currency changes are taking place is like measuring with an elastic tape the dis·~ance between two steamers travelling in opposite directions. I admit that is one of the diffi­culties. That is why the presen-:o Government have taken power in this legislation to fix. if necessary, the prices of commodities, and "hat the worlwrs' wages should be, other­wise the fixation of wages becomes a farce. I admit that the whole question of price fix­ing bristles with difficulties bec<tuse of the rPasons I have given; but an honest attempt is now being made by the Government to bring arbitration up to date and to establish it on lines which will give confidence to employees and employers. We desire. on the one hand, to show to the worker bv the figures that will be furnished that he will get all that he can expect out of the industrv he is engaged in. and to compel the employer, on t~e. other hand, to furnish those figures. By givmg power to the board to obtain those figures to show the worker that he is get:ing or will get all that he can expect to get, we shall encDurage efficiencv both on the part of the employer and employee.

The PncouragPment of co-o{)f..'ration ,s another branch that this new amhorit~ will have power to do. From everv noint of Yie'v I believe that the Bill will "b'e of la<ting benefit to the people of this Stdtc.

GOVERXMEKT ME~IBERS: Hear, Hear:

Mr. KERR (Enoggcra): The Government "pp oar to be taking exceptional pr<:'camions to give their particular version to this Bill. Five speeches have alreadv beuu delivered. oue being delivered bv "the Minister in eharge, another by tho P'i·omier. aud a third by a member of the Government party.

The PREMIER: It io a very important BiE.

~1Ir. KERR: I am no·t savin!I that the,­" r<' not entitled to do so, buL •. ;ith all th'e talk. there has onlv boon the usu~l old "soan hc:x" orator:v in 'regard to the ,vaae•· an~l conditions of the workers. "'

The PRE~.HER: It is for you to carry it on to a higher plane.

);1r .. E:ERR: The Bill contaim important pnnc1ples which havC' boon more• or less side­j ;-ack<:'d by th<e Minister. the Premier. and tbc other speaker from the Govomment sicle. In the words of the Bill, " the Courr of Industrial Arbitration is herebv e.bo!islkd.''

:\1r. HARTLEY: Hear, hear! .

Mr. KERR: 'I'hc hon. member for Fitzrov e~know!cdges hy his "hear. hear!" that the Arbi·:ration Court as it stands to-dav is !wing- abolished by the Government. ft. Is ;lroposrd unquP3tionablv bv this n1ea~ure to p'ace something in its ~tea"d.

The PREThiiER: Something- better.

:Mr. KERR: \Vo have first to tea.lise that the Bi1l unqu0stionablv throw~ arbitrotion into t.ho dust~bin. That is a.rbttration as it has been ri~61tly and justl:v kn0wn thro•Jgh­out Australia and other parts of the world. Tlw principle of arbitra·tion arc that the porties to the dispute shall have equal repre­se-ntation on the tribunal which determines tbe mNits of the dispute. \Ve hr,vc to lOn­sider this Bill not from the po;ni of vie\\· of vote-catching- but from the point of view ,,f equit.v and common sense. There are always two parties to a dispute. By consti-

tnting a board consisting of majority repre­e.:>ntation for one of those pariies dD the Uovernment believe they are going· to secure industri<tl peace or sa:::isfaction 'I Let us take for an example an appeal board. If an employee appeals against his dismissal, and the lt.ppeal board consists of two men repre­senting the employee an<:J no representative of the other party what ts the remit of that a ;'peal going to be 'I

l'vlr. FOLEY: You are misrepresenting the case.

Mr. KERR: I am not. If I am I hopB' the hon. member will not hesitate to tell me. It has been acknowledged by the Government that the two laymen to be appointed to thi~> Board of Ti·ade are going to represent the employees. It is therefore a parallel to the· case of an appeal by an employee to _a b~ard of three. two of whom represent his YI?W­point. ~What chance has that manof havmg his appeal upheld? Of course. ':0 wtll ~e uph0ld. A jurisdiction like that IS certam tD undermine public confidence, ar;td the o:rly '"ay to era in anv result on th1s question is ·to ha;·e full " public confidence in the tribunal.

);lr. FOLEY: Do vou mean to say th,lt those two n1cn ha ye no ~ntegrity or principl+;~ '?

Mr. KERR: It is all very well to talk about no intc!Iritv. H has been freeiy men­tioned that the Attornev-General is to be one· of the .appointees-- ·

The SECRETARY FOR l'cBLIC \Y ORKf· : It has been frpeh mentioned bv whom·: Dame Htnnonr! · And Dan1e 1\~mour i3 a lying­jade.

::\Ir. KERH: This rumour has also appeared in print. Supposing th~~ present Attorney­General is •One appointee, and that. ::\Ir. c>-~rrolL a u:nion delegate, is the other.

::\lr. FoLEY: \Veil, what about that.,

:\h. KERR: I am not saying anything af' tn their pPr:3onal integrity, but lr-t t~s ex::nnine t-heir \Yhole lives. They haYc experi­ence o:1 o:1e particular side in regard to economic conditions. l:nquestionabl:- they will haw a bias in that direction. and, that being the case. \vhat chance has an employer in an appeal to that board? The bo<:rd should represent both stdes of the question if it is to f(ive a ruling that is to be w~rth while. It. is nD good hurkmg- the qu·esbon. The la\v lavs it down. and the ]asr amend­mpnt of the Industrial Arbitration Act J>rovides that employers arc entitled to have representation and w be r<>gtstered. '!f e have on the other hand, the rc;z;,stratwn of n;ionf'. ThPre arc tv~To parties to any dispute, and either of those two parties may appeal for arbitration. If one of those parties-the emplovees-has t\vo representa­tives out of a board of three specmlly app,ointed under the law for a specifi pm·­pose. what. chance has the employer? I am not hohlinu a brief fm the employers. but l an1 atten~ptlng to be fair. I an1 taking .UP the attirude that. the board should functwn for the rroorl Q'OYPrnm.r·n~ of this countr,v. I could talk all et his .. blatherskitc, abcut the worker as \Yell af:. can any hon. n1ember onpositc. but we should cast aoidc the thou~ht that we arP l1ere 1ner·ely for pohdcal garn, and should ]o,l, at tl'e case from cvery Yicwpoint.

Mr. GLEDSO)<: Tt?!I u" who is reprc,;enting \Valsh and Johmon on the Deportation Board?

Mr. Kerr.1

1398 Iniustrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

::VIr. KERR: That is a tribunal created by a Go,·ermnent, and so is this. (Government Janglner.) It is open to inspectJOn and criticism bv the public. This Bili throws arbitration into the dust-bin. I venture to say that no Government can ronYincc anyone that this Bill sets out to strengthen arbitra­~ion. What I have stated shows that i• is not for the purposP of str·engthenin,: arbitro.­tiun. \Vh,· the Government only recc1 !v passed lc,ii~lation to reyors0 a . doc:ision ?f the Arbitration Court. That m Itself IS sufficient. The Gm·crnuwnt haye aided and abetted those who have departed from the -11rinciples of the Arbitration Court.

.Mr. GLEDSON: And you supported them.

:Mr. KERR: The hon. gent!Pman may say so. Through their illegal actions the court itself has been more or less dragged down after r" \-iev.'jng a certain decision, and Parlia~

ment has been asked to interfere [2.30 ;1. m.] with the court which was speci-

al!v established bY this Govorn­l11f'nt for a. spP~cific purpose. It did not carry out- the whims of certain gentlemen outside Parliament, and for that reason the Govern­ment deen1ecl it necessary to take certain action. \Ye have had too~ many experiences in tbis regard. L.:nquestionably this Bill is introduc< d for the purpose of creating lucra­tin' jobs for supporters of the Government. Tlw Pr~mier claimed that the principle of arbitration would not be upset. but more or les' the Bill is for the purposE' of providing lucratiYe jobs for partisans of the present GoYern1nC11t.

~1r. P12ASE: That i~ 1nerely an assumption on ~\our part..

~Ir. I\:ERR: It is not an assun1ption on m~- part at all. Arbitration is now dead. I look '" ith a cerhin amount of trepidation to the impuritif··· that will occur and must occur und~~r a board so con::;titut.f'd. Arbitra­tion, "hen it is adrninistore-d propcrl~v. has not provpd unsuccessfuL I do not think that an\ }wn. n10111ber can :::.av that arbitration in Ari>tralia or in any pa.rt of the world has bePll unsucc,~ ~sful.

::Vlr. H.mTL~Y: \Ylry did the Commonwf alth G-o' ·!·urnc~lt appoint· a Deportafon Board?

:\cr. KERR: If the hon. member will ('XfUll!lH' thu la\v~ he \vill find that the s,~stem i~ not wrong; but the people who are b~ehind it. and ·dw will not permit the administra­tion of it. arc wrong.

~\~2·. 1:-L\B..:u:y: The Con1n1on 1.\'Palth GoYern­rnt'nt i11 ;·ppointing a Deportation Board ackno,~·leU;t:cl that arbitration is a failure.

:\Jr. KERR: The hon. member is merch· tr~-ll!e· to sidetrack the qucst1oll. \Yise nu~i1 vd10 ilaYe given the rnost study to this ques­tion :tn :-;cc nothing to replace arbitrat.jon_ at the present time. Some of the extremists ~ay arbitration is a fa.ihn~e, but because thr y sa)· w it does not indicate that t-heir view­point is r:c(ht. I regret that the Arbitration Coun a.' established in Australia and ]n Qm•ensbnd to-day is being replaced by a party tribunal. It is not.hing more or less. The Government can only see one point of view. I say this without any feeling in re?"ard to the matter. The Premier openly said at a meeting in the Centennial Hall, " There is no doubt as to where I stand. I stand on t.he side of the men." He is entitled to say tnat, bnt, if he, as head of the State is on the side o~ men who are acting illegally: 1t Js ·only logiCal to conclude that he will

[Mr. Kerr.

build up a tribunal which is also on the side of the men. Why pass legislation providing for the registration of employers' unions and not giye to those unions equitable r('prc:;;enta­tion? Let us examine the whole thinii nnd .3ce \Yhcre the fairness comes in. 'rhis is a rlc•liberate attempt to make conditions much worse in this State. The progress and prosperity of any country arc inclicaterl. h trade. How is trade going to be car­ried on·: As we know, this is the clay of (·apitali~nl, It js not a question of capitalism bci11g- on its trial and nDt knowing \vhcthcr it will S"Y'.'P iH purpo cor not--there is ever,Y

reason to believe that capital will be the RalYation of a young country. l-Ion. rncmbers may talk about the levelling up or the leYelling down proce~s; but in viewing Queensland's needs that is how it appears to HH'. If wo can get from £20,000.000 to £30.oro.ooo of capital int-o this rcountry for secondary industrif'R, will hon. 1ncmbers opposite tell me that that is not a desirable thing·;

The SPEAKER: Order!

:\Ir. KERR: That capital is required to­day in the State, and we have to givo the 1nattcr P\"Cry consideration.

Tlw SPEAKER: Oi·der! Tho hon. mem-ber must deal with the Bill.

:\Ir. KERR : I am dealing with the Bill.

The SPEAKER: Orckr! A GoYER:\~TEXT ;\1E)IBER : '\Vhat has this to

do with arbitration?

:\lr. KEHR: lt has eyerything to do with it.

The SPEAKER: Order·! Th0 hon. mem­b"'' must connect his remarks \\·ith the Bill.

:VIr. KERR : I will connect up my J'emarks in 1his v,av: ·Capital stands for the C·oncilia­tion and Arbitration Court. Is the other side for the Conciliation and .'l.rbitration Court' Capital has not been washPd out, and it i~ ~:HEcthing· \YP all de·.;irP VYhethcr jt is in anwtmb ·of .£10,000 or £10, capital is desir­alde kr t•,·crv communit,. The Arbitration Court can n1.:n or rnake. capital.

:J[r. RRr~~I~: It cannot make capital.

:'vir. KF.RR: The hon. member is wrong. It. Cflli 1nake r1pital-it call make extra < tllital for lH\"C'~hnent. That is what can be done. aut! this St:dc has ovcrlookNl many of thr' important functions that capital can P'Jfornt

)Jr. GLEDSdX: Yo11 fH.' trvlnet to n1ake ccpitn! out of this Bill, ami you ~~nnot.

~Ir. T\:"ERR: I arn not trnng to rnako capital nut of lh<' Bill. I sav the~t confidence on tlw pan of the people is essentiaL The force of la\ i~ ono of the grcat.cst things I k1:o"· of in ihc eo1nmunlty. If you arc going to take <J ·way the pow0r of la''' in regard to a claR' in the comnmnitv. \.·hat will be the rPstdt? rThC' .Arhit.rati0n Court is a. branch of thP Supreme Court, as th,, late Chief ,Jnsticf' :YicCawley rig-htlv said. I ask whether nndPr the nf'w conditiom laid down in this Biil it io lib•lv to have the same force that it should hen; as a branch of tho Surreme CDnrt. I say. "::-Jo." If we appoint two lavmcn-it rloes not matter whPther we pay them £2,000 or £10.000 a year-authority will be takPn awav from the Arbitration Court which has bepn constituted a branch of the Supreme Court. and we shall weaken its authority in the eves of the people. The confiden~e in the court naturally weakens.

Industrial Arbitration l20 OcTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1399

'The laic Sir Samuel Griffith, when he was Premier, had thio to say in regard to the matt a-

.. TLe law could not enforce the accept­ance of g-ood advice. Conciliation onlY SllCccecls if it acquires the conGdencc of the p;_oplc."

\Ve haw reached that stage where thn Arbi­tration Court has the confrclencc of th~ majoritv of the people of Queensland, and of hol.h p,;rties to a dispute. Sonw (•xtremists nrf' di··~. t.1,,lied. At thP Emu Pa.rk I,abnnr ConYLntion the n1attcr of arbitr~tion wn~ de a it , . it h. and lYir. Rymer had this to say-

" )!r. RY~IER: Thcv should certaiul.­tak<' immediatp steps· to cut themseh·c,, ndr1ft from any machinerv that. per­mitted a reduction of the wag-es of tlw workers. It was tlw duty of the delf'gaH's +n .r-.,'i\-f' aP.sistance to get th0 workPrs to tak0 st.eps to en~ntually relic-Ye thPn1 fr:nn havinP" to sub1nit to any Arbitration Court"

1 venture to sav that lYir. RYmer's words hov€' b.•< ;l yerv ·closely considered by thi_s CovPrnff,, nt. They are aboliehing the Arbr­tra tion ~"ourt as a branch of the Supreme Court. thus reducing 1ts standing" in the c01nmunity, and the~v are r011laclng its judges "·ith L vnwn. ·when all is said and done, t lW\; Board \Yill just eit round a table,

san.e as th0 jucl~es did, and the repre­<::f>nt~itlYf'S of both 6idr~ to an~v diRpnte wlH !:"- their case before t lwm, and the evidPnco will Ue th~ deciding far·tor. 1 do not ca.re \V.hr>ther the arbiter is a layman or a judge

.-it: ic< the sifting of the eYidence-the g:rain hom the chaff-that will decide the matter \Yith an:v bodv of Til_C'Yl sitting in a ('Ourt ·Dr ronnel a table. It is all very well to say tl,at thL' o,tmospherp with which laymen will ho smTounded will make them peen liarly fitted for their jobs. I know of no n1an \Yho can go into the position of the various indus­tries a.nd deal with them without evidence. I lmm·· of YlD man who would be better able t<, do it than a jndge. He is specially n inecL he is eqnipped to sift and under­~t:tnc1 the cYiclcnn"' placed before him·. Some~ ti:_lcs-a.nd I sa:- it quite frankl 0-one repre-

whethf'r from the capital side or cn1plo:·ees' sidC', may represent a case not quite oD well as another, and to that r·xtent the' judge may be at a disadvanta~e -in sifring- t]1c eYldcncc and somcbod:· will H:ficr: bnt. if that has happened in thP 1 <:Ft. we ar~ quite saf(' in sa_vin.g that it will ha 1!]:Kn again -whocYer may l)e on thf' i'cnch. "-;cl I contend that a layman will not m:lke hin:sclf so qctickl:- acmtainted with thr> particular 1natter before him as a trained rr:.an.

In m:· opinion the full importance of the C'Ourt ha'1 not been taken into consideration b·,- the GO\-ernmcnt. The decisions which :rrlay be giYnn by a layn1an's court may have a gn J.t effect on our industries. A single '"'·ard, as I think the Premier himself said, may a.pply directly to thousands of persons. It mav change their whole social conditions. It mav substantiallv affect financial interests of magnitude. All "these considerations must bo weighed by an unbiased mind, and a decision given in the light of what is best for the State. No one in this House, whether he be on tha.t side or on this, would refuse to g-ive to the worker as much as he pos­sibly could. Hon. members opposite are a.lways forward in saying that the minimum wage is always paid. That is not always

true at all. I can quote numbers of instances v:hcre a wage much hig·hcr than the mini­mun1 is paid.

2\;lr. RYAN: Do you know of· any navvy who 1~ g0tting rnorc than the n1inimum \Vagc?

Mr. KI£RR: That is an industry under the control of the Govt:'rnrnent, and you haYe to t.:ke this factor into consideration, that, if the Gon·rnment had no taxpayer on \Yhom tD fall hack, the navvy on the railwa:· line would not get paid at all. I say that the' eonsidcration that an award rnav aff0ct the social 'tanding of a large section of the comrnunlty a11d tmJ<:h great financial. intcrP:tq is of paramount in1portance \Vhere 1ndustnal legislation is being considered.

I can see no reason at all for altering the present law. I think that under the pre­sent conrt the community as a whole c11n get eYcr:< batisfaction so far as it _is vossil_)lc to givP it whilst at the sarr1f\ tune 1na1n~ taining law and order in the country.

If an lndustrv is flourishing, there is noth~ ing to prevent i1igher wages fron1 being paid. The Act ]Wnnits that to-day. and I can see no justification for altering the po\rc_v of the ccurt.. Let ns exannno arbitration as we know it of recent Years. l'rior to 1.912 the \Yagcs Board Act ',\·as in existence, providing for the constitution of 1vages boar·ch to regu~ late hours, \VD:<C5, and conditions. Under our present industrial legislation we have practically the sar:'-c . system m operatwn. Every award that rs Jssued J:y the. court 1s

an award in respect of a part1cular Industry. and 1 venture to say that since the estab­lishment of the wages board sptem there has been a considerable improvement in con­ditions. Arbitration is not a ne·,,- system. It has been in practice in Au·:,tralia for twentv-iive ve>trs and has sen-cd its purpose admh:ably." 'l'h~ '1Vagcs Board Act was followe-d bv the Industrial Peace Act ot 1912 which. set up thC' Industrial Court. All 1 he Principlcf' eo11taincd in thC' \\T age:;; Board Act wer0 embodied in the Industrial Peace Act which had the effect of placing all indus­triP.e; on the one footing, anrl ('lin1inating unfair cornpetifon in payment. of wages ~? bct\H'en cn1ploycrs. V\7 hcre one c1nployer paHl lo\\' -yyagcs anc1 another ctnP1oycr paid higher \Yagc-.. thc-rP was ronsidcrahlP cut-throat com­pP!ition, hut tlw Industrial Peace Act placl'tl all on 0xactlv tllc same footing. It gayc an ~:-;uranc0 o( g'ood \qtgC'-, and in1nroYcd con­

ditions. Tu dfcct. it -tabili,, eel conditions

Tlw Industrial Pt•ac," Act \va•; wpealcd by tlw Industri ,1 Arbitration ~\et of 1916. ThP lnttc~r ~'\e-t f1 lnlwdiccl so1nc of th(• pnnc\plcs of the Jndnstrial Peace Act. e0lTH' of w,11ch had bc('i1 takc•n from tho \Yages_ Board Act-. ThNc v;as one ide>t in all thrs mdustna l ico·islation ancl that \.vas to obtaill inclus­trfai peac~: but under the 1916 Act tl_re court rnade fV' ard~ for the vanous Jnd\1:-..tncs. and thr· 111attcr \Ya.~ not. left to specific \\'ages hoards. I do not know that the YNY best has been n,chiC'ved by haYinc; all. ft\\'ards isSLted out of tho court in thr first mstance. In reading through F.OITlC' statistics on indus­trial mattns the otlwr day, I found t)lat a large number of_ the disputes. in, Australia are settled by dnect negotratwn between employer and employ0e.

Mr. RYAN: By direct action?

Mr. KERR: ::\o. If the hon. gentleman will look at the figures, he will find _that verv few disputes are settled by dtroot act!on. Most of the industrial disputes were

Mr. Kerr.]

1400 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill

settled by direct peaceful negotiation by employer 'and employee without reference to the court.

Mr. BRuCE: 'i'hat is direct action between two parties.

Mr. KERR: The hon. member can call it direct action if he likes. It would be direct action if I punche-d him on the nose.

Mr. BRUCE: :-<o. It would be the most foolish thing you could do. That would be suicide. (Laughter.)

Mr. KERR: If we had a svstcm of coi:­ciliation, we could have direct negotiation, and the difficulties could be overcome. The que<'tion that should receive paramount con­sideration is whether the new law is practic­able under the economic system. It is useless for this counh·y to attempt to progress !f on the one hand we exceed the economiC possibilities of this country. Wages cannot be paid if sufficient wealth is not produced to enable those wages to be paid. It is very easy for a court of laymen to ~ward a certain rate; but there must be considered the economic possibility of a country to stand that rate. First of all, we must consider the economic possibilities of a country. It is no use promising th(• worker everything. and then having to admit that, because of the economic po-<sibilit.icR. inchutry is not able to gin• a return sufficient to meet those promises. The economic problem to be con­sidered is thc finding of markets and the distribution of products. W c must arrive at that basis so that we can fix a safe· wage in industry.

\V e mmt also deal with our problem of over-production. If there is a surplus of wealth, then the Arbitration Court will have a fairly cas,,· job in fixing wages. A surplus of wealth is only possibk, of course, if mhrkets are obte.ined. On this occasion the Government in seeking to establish this authority has absolutely stacked the court. They stacked the l'pper House, and now in turn they are out to stack the Arbitration Court.

The SPEAKER : Order !

:\h. KERR: What the result will be r<•mains to be s'oen. Confidence in the Arbitration Court has been scattered to the four winds of heaven. Mv remarks mav se0m a bit hard. but they :ue very appro­priate to this Dill. I also desire to point out that the Gov(•rnment must for ever have in mind the accomplishment of their polic:·. which is the nationalisation of the means of production, distribution, and exchange.

:\Ir. COLLI;;"S : That is all propaganda.

The SECRETARY FOR PCJBLIC 'WORKS: That is not a plank of our platform.

:\Ir. KERR.: The Labour party has eYi­dcntly considered that the very best method to bring a bout production for use and not for profit is by our arbitration la,•:s, but the Gm·"rllmPnt haYe eyi,dentlv sai,d that cannot be don0 ,,,hiht judges of £he Supreme Court nrc si1ting on thP Arbitration Court bench. Th<• Government have evidentlv decided that a method of putting into operation ono plank of their programme for the socialisation of indn,,tr-· i' thmugh the Arbitration Court. If we v ant to wipe out our industries the Yery best way to attack them is through the Arbitration Court, and for the Government io fail to canv out the industrial laws. The nl·ank of the polic.v of the Labour party in thi' matter has already been placed before

[Mr. ][err.

the people. It has been on their platform for a considerable time, but they forget all about it until election time. There is w tremendous' power behind this Bill. Eve1y single person in the community will have t<> obey it. The Government have considered that the very best means to socialise industry and wipe out capital is to carry out this. particular plank of their platform.

The plank which deals directly with the­establishment of this tribunal is this-

" Government of nationalised indus· tries by boards, upon which the workers· in the industries .and the community shall have representation."

Here the Government are creating a board which will have on it two direct representa­tives of the workers out of a total of three members. This is one step towards . that objective which has taken such a promment place in the platform of the Labour party. I am not going to hide myself under a bushel, but shall endeavour as far as I can to disclose the intention of the Government. Those who are behind this GoYernment are forcing them and these planks along, as the Strike Committee forced 1 he Governme10t during the recent strike. I would not, perhaps, be in order in a matter of such paramount importance if I wer.e to brmg up the whole question of Commumsm.

The SPEAKER: Order! Order !

C\Ir. KERR: I ask the Government. in conclusion whv not be honest and stare straight o'ut that this is a blow to capital coming into this State 9 If this measure becomes law, I hope it will not he Ilroclanned until after th0 next State electiOn. The workers of Queensland will have a Yery hard time indeed if capital g·ets a. knock. Thev are correlated and interjoined, and it i; impossible to strike a blow at capital without also striking a blow at the workers. I want again to impress on everybody that our secondary industries are in a deplorable position, and Yery great con~ideration l11lt~t be given to that fact by this board. Th"' board must give protection to our secondai':c industries, and. if that is done, we shall have a better community, greater pro·duction, and 1nore \vork.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Why do the: not get protection through the tariff?

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. KERR: The'' are receiving protection

through the tariff a~ much as possible to-day. The SPEAKER : Order ! :c\>fr. KERR.: Po,siblv as time goes on they

will rPceive still greater protection throu~h the tariff.

The SPEAKER: Order ~ Order ! }1r. KER.R: I regret that this legislation

is brought in, as it will not have the same forc.e behind it as previous legislation which dealt with arbitration through a branch of the Supreme Court. Instead of sh·engthen­ing arbitration and making it casier-,v~ich we wont--this legislation will weaken arbnra­tion. In the minds of the commumty the force of law is a big thing-perhaps not in the minds of the Government-and, if you have an institution which has behind it the force of law in settling disputes, it is a good 1hing. If you have a laymen's court, an.cl it be without the necessarv force of law, It ts taking a backward step in the matter of arbitration. I am quite certain that the

Industrial Arbitration [20 OcTOBER.] Act Amendmeut Bill. 1401

Bill will go through with very little altera· tion, and that it will be proclaimed as law_: but I hope it will not be proclaimed until we have had an opportunity of asking the people what they think of . sm~shing the Arbitration Court and substitl\t!llg a lay­men's court which cannot give the same satisfaction in any possible way.

Mr. COLLINS (Bowen) : I rise to support the second reading of this me~s~ue. . We must all recognise that we are hvmg m an age of change. What might have been right

in the year 1916, when we passed [3 p.m.] the Industrial Arbit_ration Act,

might not be right m the yea:r 1925. During the past nine years .we have seen very important changes in th1s world. For one thing, we have had the Great 'Var, which has brought about a change of thought throug.hout the civilised world. We h~ve seen the inventive faculty at work. Durmg the past nine years we have had the sub­marine developed, the ae1·oplane developed, and wireless telegraphy and telephc_my and other inventions brought into da1ly use. Anv man or woman who really thinks that we· can afford to stand still for one moment in this scientific age ought to be living not in the middle ages but in the dark ages. Arbitration, like everything else, must change with the times. The time has come when a ehano-e must be made, and the Government are e endeavouring to bring about that change-not that, as time rolls on, it will Jn·ovc to be a solution of the problem of the g:reat working-class movement. I have never hesitated to say that my belief is, that so far as it is humanly possible, the product of the labourer should belong to the labourer, and that is the ultimate objective of this party. We realise that a few years ago in what was called modern industry "e had the indi~·idtual 'employer deahng direct with his employee. Later on we had 1mother form of development known as the company, in which the individual employer did not meet the employee. Lat.er on we had another form' of development known as the trust and combine, which knew not the employees in connection with the par­ticular industry in which they were engaged. Therefore we have e'tablishcd Arbitration Courts with a view to enabling each side to place its case before the judges whG have been appointed from time to t.ime. In this rneasun~ we arc socking to change the systcrn that we have had in the past by making provision for the appointment of two lay­men. What is wrong in the appointm.ont of two lavmen? Is there anv man in Par­liament to-day who can say that a man who has been through the mill, who has had to struggle to enable him to keep his wife and family in that degree of comfott which the:· should bo kept, is not in the br·st posi­tion to give a verdict as to \vhat a working man should receive? Is he not in a b.etter ,-:lllsition to give a ve"dict than a judge ·who has never done a useful dav' s work in his life out<ide being trained i~ the law' We arc told that these men are able to mete nur jmticc mYing to their special training. I hca.rd the leader of the Opposition this morning state that what we should Llo in comwction with arbitration is to see that the law is enforced. I want to sav from mv place in Parliament that wise G~vornme!l(~ in the nast have not alwavs enforced the law. They have had so"me regard for hnman life. Even Torv Government~ have not always enforced the law. Anyone who

is acquainted with the history of Europe knows that Tory Governments at times have hesitated about enforcing the law because they knew that, if they did enforce the law, it would mean the sacrifice of human life. As f interjected while the leader of the Opposition was speaking, his idea is to enforce the law with a baton, the gun, or the bayonet. We ought to have got past that.

Mr. JliiOORE: Who said that?

Mr. COLLINS: I say that is your idea o£ enforcing the law.

Mr. MOORE: Who said so?

Mr. COLLINS: Mankind up to the pre­sent has been governed by force. We should seek in the future, as far as possible, to govern mankind by a system of love, and not by force. We have had thousands of years of government of the world by force., This Bill propose.3 by arbitration and con­ciliation to bring about a better system than that which we have enjoyed in the past.

Let me cay a word or two on the Board of Trade and Arbitration. Looking at it in a broad sense it matters not who sits on that board, so long a's they are men of courage. I want to emphasise that word "'courage.'' They want to be partisans to a large extent. for this reason : .My reading of history has taught me that we have always had partisans appointed from the Tory camp to administer our laws. and ,,·e who belong to the great working population, being law-abiding, as a ndc havP abided bv their administration. If we appoint men .from the working class to sit on this board, why should hon. mem­bers opposite object to abide bv their deci­sions. c-onsidering that for centuries we abided bv the decisions of the forerunnf'n of hon. member,; opposite generally given against the interests of the working classes? History will back me up in what I am saying. Then again this board has to collect statistics. One great. authority sa,id on one occasion tha~ thP csseu('e of government in the future 1s a queshon of statistics. vYe want to know what wealth is produced in this State. I have emphasised this ever since I spoke in this Chamber in 1911, and I am going to contn:tue to emphasise it and g.;t the people to thmk until the workers of this State receive more of the Wc'alth they produce than they arc rE'ceivinl~· at the prer:ent time. This is onp of the methods which we think will bring­about what Sir Samuel Griffith stated-the hon. membC'r for Wynnum will remember it when I quote it-that the g-reat social problem of the present ar;c is not how to aceumulatc wealth but how to get a more equal distribu­tion of it. That is the nroblem which face'' the world to-clay. vVc arc taking one step in that direction in this measure. Hon. m cm bers onposi te seck to raise th<' c.ry of •' ·wolf.'' Thev sav. "Look at the wolf~ ThE' wolf is g-oing. to, ·enter the sheepfold and clcYonr all the sheep. These laymen we a rP

r-oing to put on the bench will not give jusr decision>', bnt will p;ive unjust ones. The~· will be inclined to favour the working--class ponulation as against the capitalist cla~~." y:,:crv man knov,;s that we have to-day t.h0 e\"olution of capita ]ism, and the evolution of labour, and 'A'e haYe to get a more up-to-date CYolution of nnionism in this State and the Commonwealth. Vve have to g-et the workers into one union. 01\ if not into one union. we must ha Ye a federation of unions: and I have been preaching- that for a long time. I admit that it will he vcrv difficult to fix the

Mr. ColUrw.]

1±02 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Am.cndrnent Bill.

wages for each industry. By way of illustra­tion. take the pastoral industry, which is the most prosperous industry we have in thP Commonwealth. That does not sav that the' workPrs (1 ngaged in that particula~? industrv are to get a larger proportion of the ·.•!("11th which is !1roduccd in the industry than people \\·lw are \Vorking in other industnos. There if) another ay of rneeting that kind of argu­n1C'nt. That industry i:::. a very prosp0rous indu~try, vc"':ording to the incoiYte tax r0turns which are made available to us. \Vo can tnkc fr01n that industrY a ('Crtaln amount to <•nahle us to 'urv on 'other utiliti0s in con­nection \Yith tht' gove1·nrncnt of this c01111trv. That is "·hat wo should do. BPciluse we ha~c' half c dozen indust-ries that are highlv profit­a b!o. it. ct0P· not follow that the men eng-ag-ed in tho~r-; :industri0s "re going to get a higher ratf' of 1-vagPs th;n n1P.n engaged in othPr inrluetrie'. \Yhat th0 State wants to do in :omwction with tho,,~ v0ry high!,- pront~hle mcJu,tnes is, first of all, to seC' that the ,yorkmf•n en<ragod in thorn ~.re '"ell-paid, but, .,-hen the ;tatistics with regard to profit arc collected and it is shown that owners are making a larg-e profit, some of the profit must he take-n to provide for public instruction. o1· for the •--·orlc of the Home Department. and othel' lr:•·gp spending departments.

This all has to do with arbit.ration. The 1eader of the Opposition at gn·at length sjres•Pcl the necessity for upholding the law. The law! The good old law! As if the law '"ere ahYa:vs right! In some cas~.~s the law ]1as been wrong, and time has proved that 1t ·was \vrong. From time to ti1nc we i.1ave had to repeal laws and amend laws, and we shall continue to have to do so. \Ve hear a lot about direct action. What does direct r:ction re'.dly mean? In your day, Mr. Speaker. m the davs of vour -.·outh when hon. members opposite' wera in. power not only in our own State and Comrnon~ \\·ealth, but also throughout the ci,·ilised worl,i. what method had wo of s0tdino- indus­ti·ial disnutes? The only wav we h~d w~s thE' mf'thod which was term-ed ohe ht·utal method of direct action-the strike. \Vho hrcd to wffer under that svstem? \Ye ha<:l to ::-uffrr. Our r'hildren and our wives often v .. ·ent to bed without the means necessar·· ~n sn•,tain life. For vvhat reason'? Recaus8 \VC

,-.-ore fighting for \vhat t\·e considered to lw our just rights. Did hon. membcre opposite: 1 ho fron1 time immemorial had occtFJicd 1 ~1c~e Trt,a9ury benches and tlkir cquiva1'cPt~ t hroilg·hcut the countries of the world. mak0 r,n~- 0ffort to pa~s measures surh as "'·o a.rr• OiscnHing- this afternoon? No: becfP1~C' they l:cld ohP whip hand over us. They contr:Jl!e;l tno mean,. of production and uistribul lOll.

and It v-as seldom, if m·er. that W<' came out on top. It is quite true that at times we v:_Nc Yictorioue, but they were more often nctor10us than we were. \V,, WE're the pioneers of this system of industrial arbitra­"1 1011. Not tha 1; we imaO'ined wht-n wo intro­duced it first into the Fedora! arena that it ~\as 111 any way perfect! As time goes on • e m<_ty find some better system of g-overning mankmcl than even a system of arbitration, hut as one who advocated it in days gone by I want to repeat once more what I hanl always said to the industrialists of Queens­l!':nd, that, if we cannot settle 0ut' industrial C.Jsputes by courts of arbitration. what hope Lave we of settling international disputes bv the same means? 'I'hat is what this part:;, elands for. and should stand for. That is what the Labour mDvement stands for. Let

[Mr. Collins.

1<o try to settle our own domestic disputes by rr;eans of Arbitration Courts. If we succeed, \Y0 can get out 1nto a wider field a.nd ·,ay. ''Xo more friction between nations. \Ve will se-ttle national <:lisputes by Court~ of Arbitra­tion." V\hy all this hypocrisy on the part of hon. members opposite? \Vhy do they not come out openly and say that they believe in direct action? They believed in it cl.ur­ing the war. I remember that on one ncca­r;ion some of them interjected "o me that I ' as a traitor. 'Yar is the nlo3t up-to-Ciate svstem of direct action that has e.-er b'cen -dc.-ised. \Yith all due respect to hem. r: Pmber• opposite, I want to say that .' lthough we ha.-c had strikes-we have had big ones, and in other countries they have had a million men out at a tin,e-we have >cot in all our strikes since histor·v has heen writt-en killed as many people a'l ~vere killed on the hattlefields of Europe in one da:c in the Great \Var. Hon. members opposite \;now that. \Ve do not belong to a blood­tliir,t_l' party. \Ve conducted our strikes in a peaceful manner; but oh, JYlr. Speaker, history tells how we have heen charged at the point of the bayonet, how machine guns haye been hrought out against us. His­i ory tells us all that; and crude as our attempt might have been considered at the tin1e we, knovving all 'that. endeavoured by agitatin~·, advocating, and org~nising to bring arout organisation in this Common­wealth of ours. Here in Queensland the Gov­e,·nn1ent-a Labour Government-have taken a. further step and, as time goes on, further deps rnay require to be 'taken. Fl.on. men1-brrs opposite say we do not go1·ern. They . a~- that we do not govern merely because w<- had a railwav strike that lasted for l'ight days. No -Government utn govern unle's the peoplu who go to :w1ke up the eommunitv say tha'!; they are to he governed. r sa~v WO did govern. There was no out­lq·eak, there vvas no sign of civil v,-ar, and tl1ere -;:'crf) no heads cracked, as there were in the 1912 strike. A peaceful wlution ·of 'he difTiculty was found. Perhaps the strike 'lwuld ne.-or have taken place, but -thet is ily the way. It did take place, end it was eortled in a poac<'ful manner. How would hrn1. gentle1nen op}1osite have settled that cliqmtr'? H would ha.-e been setrled in ~he <;:me wav as thev endeavoured to settle "notlwr upheaval in this State in the year 1912. This measure may not be 1 ,prfect. So f .r as I know, there is nothin~ perfect on ~hi,o earth to-dav, and will not b•· for cen­j1J.l'ie;;, and perhaps never .. At nny rate this is a step in the rig-ht direction, -and hon. :11cmbcrs know that the gospel I have ahva,vs pre-ached is that we are going step by <top i awards the goal. It n1ay "::ak•J centuries hdor0 -.,-c ro~ch it, but we arc going to "''rrch iL The journey may bo long, bur wo :~re not g-oing to be fainthearted and fall down by the wa:·. \Ve have madn a good few tnps in the side of the mountain, and we

.:trc detennined to reach the n1nuntain top, no matter how long it may take to •reach 1 hat mountain top, which is the objective of this great moyoment You can rf)st assured, :'dr. Speaker, th"·' if we, who belong to this generation, do not reach it, the children who are now born will "Refuso to till the l >rn for those who play upon the lawn."

\Ve are not going to be content any longer with the crumbs that fall from ~he rich man's table. The working people of our educated democracy, such as we have in Queensland to-day, are saying to themselves,

I nd1lslrial Arbitration [20 0CTOBEH.] Act Amendment Bill. 1403

" \VhY should we anv longer be content with thP crumbs? \Ye \Vant to sit down a" the rich man's table." In listening-in on a friend's \vireless <et the other night, the vdre­les.-:. n1an announced, "\Ve are now to bo Hvitched on to Lennon's Hotel." I listened to the jazz music that was being plaved. and I thought to mpelf as I listened, "these nrc tl--· people who can afford to Jazz at L.t•nnon''3 Hotel."

Do not forget that wireless 1s . rnak~ng \vorker~ think, and when thPy lu~ilr ]azz1ng g-oing on in Lcr:non'~ I-Iotel, they k ... n~nv thnt it doe~ not rcprt'~C'nt pOY('rty. \\·]nl0 the- m a\· not lw the nwn who pl<>-,d for the crnj)ioyers before the Arbitration Court. ihe.i neYC'rthPh'"·~ generally rPprr>senr the cmpJny­ing clas. of Queensland who plead before the court. That is the "'-olution that is L,king plac0. I can see chanve:' going on all round !nf•. I "\vclcom0 tl1P tnce ,, hc-:1 ('VPry n1an and \voman \Yill stand Prcct and ~ay, '"I arn a n1an": "I an1 a woman." This time i~ f<lst approaching-thanks to our j~dustrial arbitration laws. I say that desp1te what thos0 p0op!P say who ha,-e declared that arbitration has done no good. I was organising lwfor0 the Industrial Peace Act was pass(~d and afkr it was on the statute­hook. and ·when anv man or vvmnan ~ays that arbitration has done no good, they Rre simply saying something that is not tnw.

GovERNMEXT ME>IBERS: Hear, hear !

:\11-. COLLI~S: Arbitration helped to organise the \Vorkers; it hPl11ed to get them into indus1Tial unions. and it help0d to make the-m think. One no\Yspapor:;: to-da:v '\Yant to \Vrito in ~uf'h ~ rr1anner as i·o make n1ore of our voungor generation think, tho P:I.mr> aR

the older gen.·r3.tion \\-ere made to think because of ·thP writings which appeared in the ne\Yspapers when they were young.

I ,,-ould like to saY in conclusion that this Bill is going to w.s·. There need not be any alar ... 1 bC'causc r'-YO 1ayrnen arc going to be- appoint0cl to the bench. I hope that thE' ne'"" trilmnal will be imbued with the >'pi l-it of r ·"hour. and that it will do justice to the labouring cJa~s-at !cast moro justice than in days gone by-the jflen b0ing to give ihc 'rorkcrs more of the wealth of the land to which thev ar<' cntil!Pd. b0tter homes. and beitt•r P.u~rronndings. 'rhe age "\Ye livo in i;;.; thr' Jllost in1pnrtant from a i'Cientific point of ;Ti('w t]wt rnankind has eve~, 1ived in, a·.l1 it i" for Hi'; to tr:v to reach th~t objec­tiY~ ...,vhieh \YC han~ f'\"0-l' had before 11~. and IYhich n J 1ly nw 'll5 the emancipation of r:~1,n fron1 n1a.n.

GOITEn::::...!E.:\'T ~Ir:\(~ .zs: Hear, h.•ar!

Ho'\. \Y. H. BAR"\ES (ll'ynnum): 1 vant rirs1 to <"·ongratnlatf' :-on. Mr. S11eakcr. bf'can~t· th>: hon. Inf'rnber ,,ho has just rcqnncd his sc:,t said that YOH are to be the iclcal which he and the other members of his party arc to work to.

}lr. Pr\~E: That was a figure of speech.

Box. \Y. H. BA R~ES: Thai is a vcr:-­happy complim<>nt that the hon. member paid to you. J\IIr. Speaker. because : ou arc to bo the example to bring about these changes which are going to be. nccording to his ~tatenwnt, eo lwneficial to this communitv. You have laid upon you a very heavv dut:.-. I know that you \vill tackle it and do your very best when you arc asked i o perform it.

No one could have listened to some of the speeches to-day, and especially to the speech

of the hon. member for Bmven. without coming to two conclusions-firstly, that there is a Federal election ]wnding: second!;\'- that thNe is a St.atp election in the near future.

0PPOSITTON MDIBERS: Hear, hear!

HoN. vY. H. BAR~ES: And hon. mem­bers opposite are particularly anxions to got in certain prop a [\anda. Tbe speech of. the hon. n1crnb0r for. Bov;,rc•n \vent in the direc­tion of ~C'Pking- to inflame the lTiinds of thn con1mnni.tv nt n tln1e when thP n1inds of the c )n1n1nnit~, shonld uot bo inflnrned. ;Go­vernnwnt, laughter.)

The SI,:CR!:T-IRY FOR PcBLIC vYORK,;: Gi,-e that advice to Bruce and Companv.

Ho~. \'L H. BAR~ES: There is no doubt that the obiPct of the hon. member was so to inflame the n1inds of the .cornnnn1ity that the:- ,, ill p;o a step further in the directio" of di!'ect action.

}.fr. CoLLIXS: Xothing of the kind.

Th,, SFCRETAUY r<)R PcBLTC vYORKS; He onpooecl din•ci: action in everything right through his Slleech.

IIol\'. :\V. H. B) ... R:,ES: It has been :;;ug­gPsted over and oYPl' :1gain rhat hon. nwmbNs on thi' side do not favour arbitration.

:Mr. C\RTER: You never did in the past.

Ho'\. W. H. BAR::\'ES: I shall be able to show thc,t such is not the case, and that the statement made by t.he hon. member " absolutely--if I said " untrue," Mr .. Speaker, vou might pull me up; but I w1ll say at ~,arin.nce with fart. becau~c hon. men1bers On this side haYe stood for arbitration.

0PPOSITIOX :\1niBERS: Hear. hear !

lioN. W. H. 13_\RKES: If hon. members took the trouble to turn up the st.atutes. thov \Yonld find that arbitration was int1:oduced. "ot bv hon. members sitting behmd the Govcr;l,l!Ollt, bnt by hon. m0rnbers some of <vhom arc sitting on this side of t.he House. Even the Secretary for Public 1\'orks-whom I followe,J vel.\ closely this mormng-when introducing the Bill went right back to the time of the late Sir San1ucl Gnffith, and me1l­tioncd that gcntlomi.ln. I arn quit.c :;;urc:_ that nll hor:.. m0nJber::; \vill renlcrnbf'r the Intro­duction of th0 \',~age., Board.s Bill in 1907. \Yho \Ya.s in cl1e-1 r~.,.e of thf' goH.'l'llrtlC'llt of tho counirv \Yhen that Bill was introduced? It '\YHS ~ Pd Uv a Goverrnnpnt with which hon.

op\1osi1o had no sympathy wha~­evcr. I an1 an1a.zed that hon. rncn1ber-;; opposite hav0 thC' effTonh}ry to 3ay that ~trbit1 a\ ion wa.~ first 1ntroduc<.'c1 by then\ 'lurh is not th0 ca:::.e at all. I want tD deat wit-h that pho.w of the matte!'. which reflccte upon thi<:: IJarty. I an1 not able h? co1nnnt the parh for \Yhich I nm speakmg as a private- inemher to-clay, but I .am able to tnrn un " I-Iansard" and ~how that 1n the vcar H~21 ihe follov.·ing stateruent was 1nade bv me in this House:-

. "H<"n. \V. H. B.\RXES (JJn/imba): He belic>Y -d t.hat evorv mcmh0r of the Com­mittee was anxio~us so to conduct the aff>tirs of Queensland as to bring about conditions satisfactory to the people cm­plov<)d in her industries. It was the solemn dutY of the Committee to endeav­our to do· that. It had been said that hon. members on the Opposition side 'vPre not in favour of arbitration, v;here­as thev were really returned on that policy,· as hr> would. prove by reference

Hon. W. H. Barnes.]

1404 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

to a policy speech made just before the last election. The following sentence was in it:-

The growth of industry and the fre­quently recurring t-roubles clearly point to the fact that it is absolutely essential in the best interests of the State, as a whole, that provision should be made for the creation of a Minist-er of Labour. one who would have solo charge of affairs and whose chief duty would be-

( a) To endeavour to prevent strikes and lockouts.

(b) Encourage the settlement of in­dustrial disputes by arbitration and prevent direct action.

(c) Encourage the development of concilia t.ory measures, and also co­operation between employer and C'lnployec."

To show that it \Yas no passing phase which had o,·,currerl because a debate was taking place in this House, I would further remind hon. members that at that time this.was said ln 1he sanw debate--

"' I neecl not remind the public of Queeusland that the advent of the La.bour party into the control of Queens­lanJ's affairs has not brought about less industrial trouble. but rather since their .•dYcnt to office. taking one year with the uther, !'trikP~ have bePn 1nore frequent ?1lcl the industrial troub1es ·have boen greater, bnt 'vithout in any vvay attcmpt-1-ng to Jabnur that point. it is known that ~nch strik0s bring y.·ith then1 in·ita­tion. l<;ss upon those l0ast- able to bear it. and r· pcc-i>tlly upon women and chil­dren . .anrl cast extreme suffering upon rhese and upon thoso ·who have not < ontributed towards the trouble."

would r<:')Wat <'H'rv word of that on this occ-,,ion. Il on. me1i1bPr8 opposite attempt­la cOJwe~- to the pnblic that there is no feel­ing on this side of the House for the men, ,. onwu. and chilJrcn who labour in our iJJdmtric•s. \Vhen thev make such state­ments the-- JibPi-anJ llbcl shamefully-men \d10 are doing thei•· very bc,t t-o help to overt all industrial trouble and to bring a hnnt hapmness on the part of our indus­trial worki•rs. \Yho arp the men who favour and foster strik0s: Can it be said that hon. lllf'mhe,_·s nn thi;; side of the House are the ones ~-sho fa Your and foster strikes? Cer­tainly not.

Reference ·.n.s made to-da v to a certain hapJwning. an<! I am not going to dr1l with >r to an,- Pxtent because I know vou would pull nw up. :Mr. SpcakN. I can 'remember in connec-tion with that fearful strike in 1912. that, as a Minister of the Crown, I nrged upon some members of the then Oppo;;ition to consider m~tters very seriously nnd to :ndeavour to avmd dreadful happen­mgs ~Yh;ch 1mp-ht possiblv be precipitated. If theY had follc?wcd my advic0, the happenings on that orcaswn \\'ould not have taken place.

I staved in mv office until 12 '3.30 p.m.] o'clock at night. to tr~r and avert

1t. No m'an is wort.hy of the name of a member of this House if he does not feel that his first duty is to prevent the disloca,twn of mdustrv. A majoritv of the members on thie< side of the House are workers. Thev have alwavs been workers and are work.ers still, and, probably they

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

know more about the conditions of life thail!J many others.

Mr. PEASE: That was not the attitude of the Opposition on the railway strike.

HoN. W. H. BAR::'\TES : Inferentially l shall be able to refer to that later on. The­advent of the Labour party has not meant fewer strikes. The weakness of arbitration has not been the fault of arbitration itselt -I warit to stress that point-but the weak-­ness of arbitration has been that the Govern­ment have been afraid to carry out arbitra­tion. This is a Bill that will appear on the· statutes of this State, but the men behind it, if anything comes along, will be afraid to put it into execution. That has been the secret of the failure of a.rbitration under this -Government. In connection with an Arbitration Act it is the administration that counts, and the Government have a, duty, if they place an Arbitration Act on the statute-book, to sec that it is carried out. It can be carried out. If a Government vacillate because there is something going to be kicked about by the strikers. IJaturally the strikers will kirk all the time; but. when a firm front is maintained, you will find that the strikers will rea.dily realise the posi­tion. The strikers have not always been wrong nor have the employers always been right. :\o man can .ca.v that: but I do emphasise this point: Once ,-ou have got a law the law should be carried ont. The hon. member for Bowcn ma.do a Ycry significant state­ment. He s~id sonwthing like this: '' Mostly the la.w has been o bcyed by us." the infer· ence heing that. when it v.- ,s not convenient the law was not obevod. That is a shocking statement to makt'.' What should be the object of arbitration? It was very properly expressed in t.\wsc words bv Sir John Dcwar on one occ'lsion 'vhen addressing a number of people on the subjl-ct-

" It is the fundamental principle of all Governments to sec that the trade in the country is pro~perons, to ,-;ccure peace and public order. to make life._ capital a.nd prop. rty safe. and to 'ee that the laws which thrv make are obeved. The only way in which :;ou can do good to the poor is to promote the prosperity of the whole community."

That is a statement which should carry a great deal of weight. You are going to add to the prosperity of the community and to "'sist verv considerablv if you see that the la.ws that are made .ire obcved. "\Yhat is the position to-dav ,,-ith regard to the Go­vernment? I am· sorry that the Premier is not in his place ju<t now, but Jo we not remember the statemed that ,-;as made by the hon. gentleman from the front bench-­" :\'o Labour Government dare enforce law and O:!.'der"? That ~taten1cnt ''"as n1ade dPlibcrately by the hon. gcntlemrrn-that "Xo Lab011r GoYcrnn1ent da1·e enforce law anJ order." lf no Labour Government '"dare enforce law a.nd order." mtr1 \Yith that brand han' no rig-ht to rule. They are not Labour; they arc extremP Socialists. vYhcn he mado a sta toment of that kind thL' Premier showed his unfitn<'ss for the position he occupies. An:c mar, who has b0en a l\linister of the Crovin know« that a. l\Tini;;;tor is svvorn to do his dutv. and it is his duty to do it, no matter \vhat may be the- conse<l.uences.

VY c have had the spectacle in Qu<'enslancl of the Government, first of all. oo.yiwi. '' \Ve are going to do sornething,'' and again_

Indusuial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1405

r.:,aying, ···\Ye are g·oing to do it,'' and finallv the men 'd10 had created the trouble wer.e tfw Los~es, and C'llllC out on top in the indust.ria1 :<pherc of Queensland.

1\Ir. \YJ;;STA};LEY: I quc,tion \vhcthcr he th~l:de that statenwnt.

Ho;;. W. H. BAH::\'ES: Ho made the sratcwent that the Iudustrial Peace Bill was illtnHiucc:cl with the idea of knockin<T out uuiou] .. m. That is not correct. The fndus­trial Pe.tt" Bill \\Us introduced as the title -;hows, tu bring about industn'al peace. 1 unhesitati~1gly say that every rnan in 1hc l'llllllllu:lil y "vho desir·e·; y,·ork has the right to \York. The Industrial Peace Bill

c'Uch a uature that the Federal copi0d it to a great extent

of its value and its bror:d and com­nrovisions. ~o one on this side

t·n~r suid t·hat unions had no right to be l'<.'vupnised. \V" know the trouble to-d<w w:th l'l'~·ard to some of the unions. \Vc .ail kno 1,'' that, v.-hcn rnen combine and co-operate in union~. they are stronger thereby; but the unions to-day are being white ant-oaten by the extrerne Socialists. 'rhc 1.rhite ants ha\ :- got in, and they are destroying what ohould be a mighty a:rd helpful power in the cornrnunity. 'The GoYcrnn1cnt :themselves havt' created an instance of that kind of control.

~ome hon. members opposite have stated that cYery hon. n1en1ber on this side is opposed to layn1cn being Jncrnbers of the Board Df Trade and Arbitration. I probably may chffer with some horr. members on this ,ide in that rt'gard. It all ·depends upon who the pcrsDns appointed are, but I should be absDlntclv inconsistent if I did not sav that in 192l I made certain statements in <:onn-cction with lavmen on the Arbitration ·Ccurt benc-h. On page 1388 of " Hansard '' ..for 1921 I am reported as saying-

., He was a believer in arbitration. b cause he belie\·ed that by that rneans thev would hdp to relieve some of the diffic-ulties which existe-d. In that ron­nection it seen1cd to hi1n essential that 'he per-_on who presi·ded oYer the court had , lborough knowlf'dgc of the business nifairs \Yith which he had to deal. It \\'QS no reflpctic.'ll on the Co1nn1itteo to ::-;ay that probubly one or hvo hon. mem­:ocr·' would be a blP to deal with tht:' I]_Ut.'.·tion of la1v in a '\Yav that no othc•r hm1. rn-f'n1bcr~ could. ·Son1e of thcrn ·wou1cl f!.nd thcnlst~lYes in a verv grn~t difficnlh if the,, had to deal with ques­iion' of law, oimpl: because th,,_v did Let nndei'~tand them. There \YCre ot-lwr nten1hcJ·" who speciali ed in financjal

and social matter.~. just as 1ncn in the ordinary avenues of life.

the \YPakncssc"~ of ..:\uo;;tralia in the po:>t had }wen dne io the f~tct that the nwn appDintcd to deal with industrial qrw r io'l' did not understand the par­tirulc;r inclush·ics conccrnecL and, without' in an. wav reflecting on the-ir ~\rbit.ration Court judges, he lwld that judges were sDmctimes not the best men to preside oyer industrial difficultic'·."

·M,.· owu Yiew is that tlw wages board wstem was better than the Ind•1strial Arbitration Court sntem bv 1·cason Df the fact that the pa rtiPs · to a cl ispn tc wPre gDt tDgcther to cliscusc- the pros and cons. Thc·re mav have 'hePn :-omc failures. ~

:\Tr. Du;H: You cancelled the carters' ·nward made under that system.

Ho;;. W. H. BAR:'\ES: The hon. member is n1aking- a statcnwnt that he knows nothing about.

Ther? is one omission from the Bill. Lelic\"c that. in a dPnlocratic ag-u the rne_L ..... concerned should have a YOte. aud I believe that in many cases, if that right had been conceded. some of the troubles we ha Ye experi­enced in the industrial affairs of Queeusland \\ ould not ha vc occurred. I sa v that u ~ r~cret ballot shouid hc ,,aken before a strike eau hrkP pl11ce. <tnd in the Industrial Peace Act snch u proYision was 1nadc. \""'by should not the• rncn '\Yho arc conc,?-nwd haYe the right to f,"l. •·:hcth0r they want to go out or \VaHt to :;taY in'!

:\Ir. HY;;ES: Thov ha,-e the right under the prpsc'nt Act. Do VOL! not kno•Y that the Hpg·i~trar is taking a ·ballot in C:1irns at the JH'P~'·nt tin1e?

HoN. W. H. BARl\ES: And look at th" trouble there ha' been to get it taken.

Mr. H Y;;Es : Still, there is a provisi{)Ir theril to take it.

lioN. W. H. BARNES: We know that the men who do the organising arc opposed to ballots and \Yill not allow them to be taken. I say Pmphatically that anything in the direc­tion of arbitration \Yhich will nrevent strike~ and lockouts is a good thing to the cDm. munity. Let us conaidor the desirableness of any measure which will saYe the losses tD the producer and to the worker that occur when a strike takes place. But that is not crll. Think of what it means to the women and children 1 I can turn un ., Hansard'' for 1912 and find Dn pag-e 511 :'Jf VD!. CXI. report' vvhi('h wero sought. fro1n n1en and '"'·onH!-n employed in one of th<' departments of the State as to the losses which the strike ill­volved :-

" Mrs. C'HAB,LTOX: A_n occupier in the boot trark told me that the firm lost Dver £2,000 in one month, which was a total loss to their emplo.v0cs Durin6 the half-:.·ear ending 30th June, the firm\; output was 30,000 pairs of boots less t.ha~l during the previous corrt·3ponding pcnod.

" \Vhile the bread1vinners \\"ent Dut on strike n1any of the 1vjv0s had to go out-. and wash. or do Oaily eharing. and noYr-r bPforc were• there so rnany' ~ pecial appli~ations for young chilrln'n to p;o to \York.

" :!\1:iss DE:)JFSEY: ThP 1!1C>'t

number of hmne ,~-orkcr for :V<'ar cndo•d 30th April '.," ,-,'r,V und a frn•nt portlon of tlli3 nutv tributor! to the strike. '

" 1\!Iiss RoDINSOK .: There \1- crp n ?;c ,Jc~ 111an:v ]Hl:l'cnts calhnr:: at. t.his of-ficp fot' Spl~ei;:d pcn11it~ for children, the rr·a~o!l r-ivr•Ji in rna:ny ill'3tancp:;; being thnt thP fathers nnd others helping to support the fa!11i\y had been out of cmplo- ment sincr> t~t':' strikt:>, , nd that the rnone Parnc(1 bv the children \Vot;!d lw thing to -he1p OYf'l' (l very tr)rintT Other par0nts said that the•: had not intended hking the children from school for a whil0. hut thev found it difficult to mak0 0nds n1cct since the \-\'3 ;!,('­f?arncrs had been Dut of cn1p1o_ymcnt on account of the ~ti·ike.''

I could read out the results Df other inquiries which wer,e instituted at thd time, and I repeat that, if this Bill can achieve anything in ·the direction Df minimising this misery

Hon. W. H. Ban~es;]

1406 Industrial Arbitmtion [ASSEMBLY.] Act AmendJIIent Bill•

and suffering, it will do a great thing for the community; bl!t it seems to me to be >ery largely a sugar-coated pill. Here in the name of industrv:tl arbitration something has been devised to do detective work amongst the trading communit7 of this State. The ideas some hon. members opposite haYe about the profits which people make are truly wonderful. If thev knew what thoy were talking abo•n they. would know that every­!hing in the garden is not so lov·ely. Under this title-an lndu,trial Arbitration Act Amendment Bill-the pity of it !-under the ple.t of tr:;ing to help meu and women to get .,·hat may be· 1 heir just rights, the Govern-1nent ar·e introducing a method of inquisition which will haye fearful results. The hon. rnern bcr for Bo\\-en did not say it in so n1any words. but he inferred that this was only onp of those steps towards bringing about a new heaven and a nevy earth and the Rus­~idni:.;ing of Qu.C'ensland. The l\linister rnay deny it, btJt. it is a fact. I ·desire to draw attention to something I noticed in thP paper to-dav with re.,ard to the doctorate of l'ort Cnrti's. There~ ha' entered the Port Curtis elL r·tor,ltc Eron1 the Labour sid'< f1onre po-wer which is g·oing to destroy the movc1ncnt, and 1 ho~p ;_·oncernt•d <'UP taking extren1c steps to ,_, ipe it out.

Tho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: Still you con1plain.

Hm;. W. H. BAR:\'ES: The point with t 1 ~i~ Bill is that the Government, unable to p:·'YC'flt a di~play of inst.:'tbility and \Vcakness, ;md of their inahilitv to set a fair front to t~lC encruy. bring iD a Bill which is. going 10 do •·- hat I have outlined in my speech this afternoon.

l\Ir. HYl\ES (Totrnsrillc): Unlike the hon. mcrnbe1· for \Vynnum, I welcome the Bill bec::tm·. I think it will haYc the effect of l'ernoving sornc of the anorr1<tlies existing under the ..-\et at the present time and of popularising· the Arbitration Court. The hon. Lwrnbc'r pmcticali~ argued that we should make 110 anH.:ndn1ents in Acts of Parliament -that the c'\.cts, when Ol!Ce passed by this C~wru ber, lik2 the la\\ s of the :\le des and Persian;., should rernain unalterable. In order to giYl' effect to thP polic}~ of arbitra­' ion which i,- the defined policy of this party it is ub•oluteh- imperative that we should a~l:!:_'nd tll(~ la1Y frorn tirnc to tirne as indus­trial conditions and change' demand it. The prr ~llt ~j ~·.te1n ha:-3 out~ivcd it" u~efulness in mauy rc·l)('ct.:::. For Instrtnce. the Inet.hod r-f d('tC'l'n}iniHJ . .!.' the basic wag·e is what i;,

-uall-- rcferr, J to as the fodder basis. The tin-w has arrived-if hon. ln('mbers opposite W\.)rc honr·'L in their a'"-E'Ttion.~ they would · ::--rC'P ~.Yith rnc-vd1en i:he 'Yorkers should TJarti~1patc in the incr('ascd prosperity brought about b~r in"rc~scd productiYit~T·

focltlo,· basis is fundamentally >vrong. shoukt bo disroni.inucd.

The 1110thod of ::ecnTing the npccssary data i~ also smuC'thing that haf' caused mP a. fO'ea t. deal of ('Oncern in the past. I an1 :-:peaking as one who has had an opportunity of repJ"c-:.sc?nting tlH' \Yorkers as an industrial ndvoc~•te in the Arbitntion Conrt. Frorn timo to time >vn have referred to 1he fnct that the onl-- stati,;rics available to ns .ue these compiled by the Commonwe.tlth Stati'­tician. f'k•,•ing; n award affects pretty ncavlv the whole of the community, we say tha" 'omething of a more scientific nature should take the place of the old system of compilinrc the cost of living data.

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

Take the method emplo· cd at the present time. The Commonwealth Statistician send• out lists to variou• retailers in the States. Those retailers are inYariably employers of labour, and are certainly interested varties so far as cost of !iYing· data is concerned. 1 say that in some cases inaccurate _returns are furnished for the purpose of makmg out that the cost of [j,·ing in the Shte IS less than it really is. The fact that the Brll intends tu establish a statistical bureau, "·hrch I take it will be presided over or controlled bv an efficient statist, should overcome thB defect in the pr<"·,t•nt methods. That is an amendment which is h:ghly essential.

\Ye are now using a ctandard to deal with the waiTes question which vYas aniYed at by rule ot' thun1b tjghtl'C11 ~YC}:l~·s ago. I _rofe1· to what is known as the " Harvester,. ]Udg· rrH~nt. It is nearl'i.' t.ime that in l~necnsland, where ,.,-e have 'naid n1ore ·attention to arbitration than ir1 other States. vne should go ahead a little fastt•e rrnd e,:;:Ltblish our own bureau, \Vhieh will compile data con­nected -with the cost of living nnd ::;J:'tti·,tic~ d0alin~ \.ith the fuuctions of tlll' Beard of Trade -and Arbitratio>L

It has been said that Parllamc·nt i~ over­riding- the principles of arbitration by re<tson of the fact that the Act is bciW!: 'nncnded in certain particular;::. I "\vould -refer hon. members tu this paragraph which appears at page 99 of a book 'issued b~- :\Ir. ~\. B. Piddington in March la--t, :tnd cmtrtled " Hcport on the Producti,-ity of Qqeons!and a11d Ren1uneration of La bonr "-

"I adhere to the Yiew I have expressed else·where that the courts are pm\"t•rless to drag industr.Y ont of the present chaos. It is for ParJianH•nt to lav down principles of action by the court. \Ye have had ei-ghtet'n vears of the · Har­vester' equivalent, er'idlcss cxpcnsf' of liti­gation, incessant industrial disco1nfort, cl£'cisions \Vhich, con1pro1ni~ing- l-wt\Yecn both parties, arc resented and derided by each, and at the end of it all ·the \.vorker and his fan1ilv' an• not yet equir1ped with 't.he amount nece~sary for reasonable health and comfort.' :The phrn,se' arc from Sir Samuel Griffith's dcf!nition of a liYing wag·c 'hirty-four ~·ears ago.)

" T1w rca~on i:;; that Par1iarn0nt.:.; haY•:> flnng the whole function of dott•· ,.Jining y-avc prir::ciplc-; npon the conrt-.:. T~1is is rt

·.al of the true :·elation. Courts. ta can~=- out, not to ill\'ent. rnlPs of

dut:-· for citizens. It is Parliament·, duty to fornndatc tho~c rult';;;. L"':llhl rh ·t is done. basic wag€' reg-ulation ('lllerge fron1 the larncntabl8 1;hich it has been Lrought."

:\h. :'oLIXWELL: \Yhat dicl l\Ir. Sntcliffe say?

:Hr. HY:'\ES : Th<' Bill is O\'Crcorne the obic,·tion..:; set out Piddington. It it~ c:1lculnicd to givt_' rcljef in that direction. At the present time one nunL ,...-ith a st tff of bYo. i,, ondea,·ouri~1g- to deal with the ftxation of l!rir, within the StntP. That is purely a' function of the ~\rllitratinn Court. and a natural adjunct to that court. V\'hcn the -,,-orker·, occur' an increase in vvages ur:der th~ existing system of fixing 'vage'j they pn v for ~t in increased pric0s as consumer:;;. That i;;; where ·wages and prict•s arc indiswlnbly asso iatcd with

Industrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.] Art Amendment Bill. 1407

each otlwr. and it is high time that the court had full control of the functions of price fixing.

I would like to say a fpw words in con­nection with tho appointment of lay judges. It j-; hitrhl\ efscntlal in dealing \•.rith indus­trial di-~1utes and matters that the presiding judo·c or n,dindicator should haYc an intin1atc kno~Ylcdgc of the conditions under: 11·hi~h the \vorkcn; arL' engagt'd Hl the 1 anous Indu<;:­tric'. This Bill is calculatr·d to bring about :hat result. It is intended to place two laymen on the bench, and they must be men who haYe an intima,to knowledge of the indmtric' of C'uccnsland. \\'hat is th~ posi­tion at the p~·csent time? You appoint a judge who is educated in the law of the ' 1pitalisric State, who has been bronght up as a 1ncmber of il capitalistic society, and it is '~Cal·cclv fen~iblc that such an individual i~ going 'to g·ivc rulings and judgment''· that : rr' calculated to break the "·stem of our !'-ocictv of -which he is a n1Ptnber. The tirne has alTi,·ed when IYC should have lay_ judges in industrial rnattc1 in Queensland. Per­eo,ally, I "~onlcl like to .... eo more than two. I an1 satisfied their jud~m~nts 'vill be just ;;;.;:; sonnd as cou1d be tJivcn by la·w;. er judges.

:\fr. 'YI \X WEU.: \Vas Judge ]}1cC':ndey a uq)italist.?

~vir. n Y?\ES: Anv number of men m Qucnmla.nd wol'ld ha.ve made just as good or a bettnr job of it as ,Judge :\IcCawley. In the pat3t 'vo hr~ve sf'kctrd our industrial judges from the legal fraternny. and ha,~o Tif'Yl'r given an opportunHy to laymen to Rh~o\V ,-.:-hui jndgn10nts thc,v ronld give. I am satis[ierl that after this Dill has been law for a little whil0 hon. members opposite \\"ill sa:·. " \Ve did not sho~,,.- much opposi­tion to it. We agreed to it, and we agreed tbat laymen could give just as good judg­nwnts as la1:ryer judg-Ps could give." I have no C]Ualms as to the future of the tribunal nndcr la? iudgcs. In connection with th0 ~f'Yf'tl vcurc;:' term of officC>. in conversation with the present judg-e .. of the Arbitration Co11rt thrv hrrve infonncd rnc tha.t thev are of thu opi.rylon thcu SC'\~011 yc:ars is qui to~ long C'llongh for an~,~ pe\ son t0 be a jud~~e of the ~\rbitrnrion Cm•t·t. That statement ha' been free!" mr~do b,- men who haYe had C'XJlCrienco: I ~ay the" period is long enough. a llC! pcr<onalh· I would like to sec it madr• fi\'C years. "

In co·mcction with strikes and the bring­ing about of iT'dustrial peace. I do not think thHt this other n1easure that v. ic; going to bring

a now e~trtb. 1 t) Jo a\Ya\""

1 arn Dn·e RO long ac,

sun·iv0~ IYP shall haYo I ng-tcf' ·with Ton1 Paine

!11 1

• 11",~r of hurnan progre<;:..:; 1..., f:J.;;roni" 0 ri". pnc\ 1·hnt people v.ill rmnain d1 ·r·or!tnrq-, rl i1 they reach their objcc-ti\"P. 1lw oneial of inrlmtr:·. (Oppoc-

Lrlvhtrr.) I nn1 not afraid to ~nv th·~t sarin lisation of industl'~7 is our obiCctiYe.

is nn objf'rH,-0 1- id clo,vn bv the · iOrkcrs of thie and ot.her Sta.tes. 'l'h~ onh­nhi~ctior~ j_, that hnn. rn~~ntbt>rs opposite an;t HH'Jt frH~nd.::. ;;;;n_y 1\'C arc endeavouring to r0a '"'h our objcctivp by rC>Yoluti<Jnary action. That i< not Ro. 'IV e are endoa vouring to r0och our goal by gradual and evolutionarv effort. ·

Mr. ~iAXWELL: That is the Communistic objective.

11r. HYNES : So far as Communists are concerned t.hoy have the right. the same as eYcry other Dritish citizen, to build up thmr industrial orcranisation and carry out then· obicctiYe. but they must do it outside the Labour mm·cment. Their {lbjective and our objective arc entirely different. \Ve belieYe in the soeialisation of industry, but they belieYC in the dictato·rship of the proleta;·iat. The ono is the very negation of the other. Hon. members opposite are totally ignoram of economics if they think that the Labour party nnd the, Conirrlunistic pa.rty have the one objective.

:\Ir. KERR: You stole their platform.

Mr. MAXWELL: Socialisation of industry i:-> their objective.

Mr. HYNES: I point out for the in­fcr,,wtion of hon. members opposite that practice il:v the wh{l]e of the industrialists in thi State will <'omc under the control o{ this Bill with which we are dealing. According to the "Commonw·ealth Year Book " for 1924, page 533, there were seYenty­~ix industrial unions of mnployees vvith ~)Jproximately 92,444 members registered in C~ucensland undn the Industrial Arbitration Act, \Yhile the number of trade u1nons wa,-.,

119, with 285 branches and a t-otal of 109.153 member... Seeing that the total number of

organised workers in this Statc [4 p.m.] is 109.153 and the total number

of registrations under the State Arbitration Court is 92,444, one can easily see r.hat most of the industries in this State arc coycrc>d bv the State Arbitration Act. Thcse figures, were compiled before the crnba rgo ,. as removecl by the State Legisla­ture in r( 'Xard to p•ublic servants in receipt of more than £300 a year. Prior to the rep. al of the Salaries Act only thoce persons receiving Jess t-han £300 per an:nun1 had accO"' to the Arbitration Court, therefore Jt is ln~ical to assume that at the pre..,ent tin1c pretty nf•cu·]~,. the whole of the organi~0·.:l ~,:orkcrc:.. ill QucPw•land arc covered by the~ _,:\l'bitrat·iDn ~~et. '

I hope tha r the boa rtl will take into con­sidcratiou sorrH~ of the anoma1ic3 that , xi~t at the prc·cnt time in regard to the basic wa,:--c 1 lld aJ~o the paritic~ whieh arc pnid in c<'rt 1ir. portio!"s of the State. In far :\or1-hcrn Quecn~land to-day the (~o~t of living­j;:; highf~r than it i" at TDwnsyillc.

1 ht• basic wage paid in tlH far the sanw t·-) t.hat paid in Town:_.­

IYhr're the parity is 10s. n week ~ boYe in Tiri~banc. I do not \Yish

llH to i akc my lL'lSt~_pport.r~d t~ ..;ti-nJon-· ic:r that st .. t~n1cnt, br

to the "C1{Jl11HlO!tWCaJth

p ,er~' 57.5. index to cnr..t nf f n· 1923 for the "'·ere--

Bri~banc To·.rr •YiEc Tnui_.fnii

In de .. J\:'"o. 1~88 1731 ~923

_\cconlir: to the basic which ,..a, PYJf!( '-f•d ln t-his Pa 1iamf'nt ,; w.·pk;;; a.gD

t~H·rc 1 a 10~. purity above BriRbano eri~ nd f01.' .1)1 ...,_, orkcrc; in the NDr-':1 th~> 22nd "'Wr ·1lrl. Tbat rne~ns that tl-,;: c fff\t'· tiYF \Vfl Q'l). of the wor1:er in the rPn,otf' parts n~ tlH~ ~-orth ic. lee;:., than it is in BrisbanP. I suggr>·-t that the board should immediatelv tB('klc that Rnomal:v, and gnv:t an incre~:\)0 of 5s. OYer !he ::\'orthern parity to all pPr~ons

Mr. Hynes.]

1408 Industrial Arbitrati:;n [ASSE:}fBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

working north of the 19th parallel. The purchasing power of money in Innisfail is at least 10 per cent. less than it is in Townsvillo, and we have the anomalv of the Arbitration Court pre,cribing the san!e parity for Innisfail as for Townsville. It is one of the anomalies that are causing a consider­" ble amount of industrial unrest in the Innis­f,,i l and other districts. Take E" an and Kan-

H ills. Every pound of foodstufi has to rartl'd to that place by packhorse. cnrl it

i.s logical t-o assume that the cost of living thPrc will be much higher than in Beisbano. .\.s a matter of fact, the• parit~· in that case ,J10nld be higher than 15s. above Brisbane.

I know that these anomalies have exicted in the past through the court not having facilities to collect the necessan· data on which to base its judgment. That.is a matter which will be dealt with in tlw future by rh· bureau of statistics. Not 0'1lv will this Hill impwve the conditions with "regard to 11Ying t;t.andards, but it 1Nill bring abont au era of industrial ptace. I do not say that it is going comp!<:>tely to do a···a:: ,,-ith ctrikes and industrial unrest. but it· is going to do sornething in that dirPctlon if the Board of Trade and A1·b'•tra~ion JS

<::cnstituted in the manner which has been indicated.

I have no hesitation in sa:ving· that thn time will come when we shall have to amend this measure. l realise that undet the altered conditions of industry, when machinery is increasing the output every da0 • something wlll have to be done to enable the workers who operate the machinery to pa•·ticipao,e in ~he prosperity which is brought about by increased production. That will be one of the functions of the new Board of Trade and Arbitration which will be constituted under ·:'1is Bill. No one can seriously argue to-day that Queensland cannot affo·rd mor·c than £~ 5.s. a week for workers. vVhen we see ·.·he evidences of prosperity around us we rnu~t. f'Ome to th0 conclusion that there is a -cction of the community which i, not get­t inf?: a fair share of the wealth produced in r he State. If this Bill brings a bout bettct· conditions for the workers, it witl do some­thing· of untold benefit to this State, I have much pleasure in cong-ratulating the Govern­nwnt on introducing this Bill. which will ha ye the dfrct of improving the existing indu-ti'ial arbitration n1achlnery and giving- the \vorking c ', a~sc ·; of the State a fair sharp of the w~alth i hey are producing.

:VIr. SWAYNE (Mirat1i): The que,rion ' hirh will be asked by every thinking p•'rson in Qnccnslend is whether. in Yicw of -,·hat l,,' hanponcd l atcly. arlii~ratio'l is reallv ,,·orth while. owing to the wa:· in \Yhich it ;, bPiuv admini~tored. I feel quite safn in ""·~ving that we on this side stand. for arbi-1l'atio1L bnt we quite realise that. if axb;tr:-t­·:ion i~ to be eft'octive, the av:ards Df the < mrt must be carried out by both sides. When we heard that thi, amending legisla­rion was to be brought along we hoped. that it woulrl rectify the anomaly which for -=,.Jnlf' time past has boon so app;:nent in ron­ncc:ion with our industrial lf'~islation. but, 'O far as we can judge, this Bill is simph· ~-oing to· acDentuate the evils vrhich exist. Tt has been made evident that. while the ,\ rbitntion Court in the pa't h ' b<'cn a<!ministored by men of high repute and integrity. upon \Yho'e impartiality there has been no reflection cast-in the f11mre there are to be partisan appointments. 'l'hat

[Mr. Hynes.

has been made plain by the hon. member for Bowen, who said that in his opinion. it should be a partisan tribunal-that the two nr•w members of the Board of Trade and Arbitration are to be partisans.

:\I r. CoLLINS : I did not say they would l•e partisans. I said they would be good L>tbomites if I had my way.

:\h. S\YAY:'\E: The hon. member used the word .. partisans." I think we all realise that. if e':et· there was a time in the history of Quccn;-;Iand \\·hen it was requisite in the inlr'rr'>ls of all that capital should be encou­raged. 'n'hen we should obtain 11101'0 n1onc,­

t(J dE~Ydop our natural resources. it is llO\Y. \Ye knm\· how indnstr,v is ]angui-hin,;. \Yr: kno-..y ho\v enterpri~e has become ahnost a thing of the past. During this session figure~ takt~n fron1 official sources haYe been quoted from time to time to show that primary pr<;J­duction is at a standstill and that secondary production. if anvthing, is on the down grade. There is t)nemployment in this rich y'~ung· f'ountry which was unkno·wn a fe\v years ago.

The SPEAKER : Order !

l\Ir. S\VAYNE: That state O'f things needs rcctih·ino· in the interests of all, worker,; inc-luded~ I am sorry to say that I feel sure that the Bill which we have before us is not going to bring about a better state of things. Hon. members on the other Slde have enlarged on the need for increased pro­duction. and I quite agree with them that increa~ed production is requisi_te. I think the hon. rnember for Townsvrlle was qnc of thoec who emphasised the need for in­creased production. but somehow or other we find that, under the control of hou. n1enrbc1 opposite, pr.oduction is dec!ca~ing. Although they preach the necessity for increase in that -direction. industry actually is fallinf?; off.

Son1c figures wer-e published in the B~·is­bane '' Telegraph " tht:~ other day refcrnr)g to sccondar•· prodL!Ction in Queensland. the n00d for which. as I haYo ah·cad~.- indicated. has been preached by hon. members on the other side of the House. In 1914 the aYerage production of Australia--

Thc SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. S\Y.\ YNE: l think I am justified it• rr·plvir:(J' to the arguments used bv hon. H~;n}be~~S Ot1 the other side, and 1110St certaiw.lv thf' uecd for increased production has been raisPd.

The SPEAKER: Reference hao b·"en to the need for increased iHoduction. J he hon. n10tnbcr ls uot in order in in~ along those lines.

C.Tr. S\\'.\Y:\iE: I am dealinf?: YYith thP need for increased production. -

The SPEAKER: If the hon. member will ,how me in what way it can be conncctcJ wil h the Bill, I will allow him to procoecl with his argument.

;'\lr. SWA Y:'\E: This is a Bill which wili be used in the carr.~.~ing on of our industrial occupations. and I am going to show that it is not likelY to bring about increased produc­tion. but that. on the contrary, it will havn e detrimental effect on our industrial life by increasing evils that already h"-V<' that effect. vYhereas in 1914 the industrial output of thr who!? of Australia amounted to about £33 aa individual, in Queensland the output was £37. or about £3 9s. a head above the average.

Industrial Arbitration [20 0CTOBEH.] Act Amendment Bill. 1409

In 1923. after RO!lll' years of the present sv,tem, Queensland's output was £48 Ss. 5d .. ··' compared with an average of the whole of Anstralia of £60 15s. 3d .. showin" a deficit of .£12 6s. lOd. Instead of increa~ing produc· t10n, which hon. members opposite ctllege th~:v desire. it must be apparent to every dnnkmg per•on that legislation such as this is likely to reduce it. vVe have had allusions to this party's attitude in the past. I do not mtend to dwell upon that. as other speakers h :se shown conclusivch,T that we have alv,avs ::;t.ood for the arbitratioi1 svsten1 and for indr{s­t~·ial peace. \Ve have al;v,ays recognised the r1ght of both parties to a dispute to have then· case heard before an impartial tribunaL Tthas been made apparent that the propoc .. "l tnbnnal m not going to be impartiaL If it is not going to be impartial, then it is onl:v honest to erect a placard warning all those who possess capital intending to invest it in Queensland to keep awav from this State. because they will not receive a fair go. If we are to have lay members on this board, then there should be one representative from ~a eh ~arty to the dispute: but apparently the mtE'ntwn of the Government is to choose the lay members from one section of the com­munity only. In those circumstances we are not gain!'( to have any improvement, but shall hE' adoptmg a retrogressive method compared ivith the system in existence to-day. I quite ackn~nvledge that lay members wisely chosen, not twd to any party, prepared to be impartial and fair, not biased against employer and not biased a!rainst employee. may be able to produce some benoficial results. I know it is contended that the ordinary layman does not poss.:;s~ the ju.dicial. mind and the training reqUisite to sift evidence and decide what <widence is relevant and what is irrelevant. Personally I am in favour of the legal man. Expert knowledge can always be produced through witnesses on either side. The two lav· men to be appointed will not possess expert knowledge of the variety of occupations to he considered. Whilst they may be very well verse~ say, in the iron trade or in agricul­ture, It does not follow that they will under­·stand mining. There are hundreds of orcupa· tions which could be divided i!lto different -groups or classes, all of which hR.ve different nwthods of carrying on business. It would he impossible to obtain two men thoroughly <'onversant with all the various complexities t.o be dealt with. Therefore, we are not going te get any further in that direction. What the majority of the people of Quepnsland r1esire at the present moment is industrial peace, and industrial peace thev are not going to get by such measures as this.·

:\Ir. CoLLINS : Why?

}fr. SW AYNE: How can there be indus­trial peace if the board is partial and decisions are given constantly against ana narty? The hon. member for Bowen in his own words sets out clearly that there cannot be any industrial peace. How can a partisan provide industrial peace? Would there not always be a sense of injustice upon the part of those who claim to have been dealt with in a partisan manner? It does not require a great deal of reflection to 'e"E' !l'ravc danger in the BilL I sav that the two lay members whom the Government intend to appoint to this board are to be partisans. That shows that the board is to be a biased tribunal, therefore it will never be a success.

Mr. FARRELL: If we appoint two of your crowd, it will be a 'good Bill?

1925-4 s

;\11·. SWAYNE: I defy hon. members on the other side to show instances where nominees appointed by the party on this side have been biased. Their statements are simply empty talk and camouflage to cover up the intentions that lie hidden behind this Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC \VORKS: More sini'lter suggestions.

Mr. SVVAYi\E: As a representative of a farming constituency-and, if the Govern­ment arc as desirous of protecting the pri­mal'Y producer a.s .they would 'have 'US believe, they should accept my suggestion­provision should be made in the Bill whereby any loss occasioned to the produce of pri· mary producers through the action of wealthy unions in striking when there is a court to deal with the trouble and when the strike is illegal should be recovered by way of damages against the union causing the loss.

The SECRETAHY FOR PcBLIC WORKS: If we embodied such a clause in the Bill and made it retrospective, the farmers of Proserpine would be glad of it.

Mr. SWAYNE: There is no occasion for direct action when a tribunal has been estab­lished to deal with industrial disputes. If two persons have a dispute over money matters. they are supposed to take it to court. One party is not allowed to hold the other up in the street or to assault him. The Arbitration Court has been established for employees and employers to take their dis­putes to, and neither party shonld be allowed under the Act to take the law into its own hands. Unfortunately, when they do so, the innocent, who have nothing whatever to do with the trouble, suffer, as the primary pro­ducers in the electorate of the hon. member for Bowen have suffered recently to the extent of £3,000 a day.

Mr. COLLINS: That is no fault of mine. The SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! Mr. SWAYNE: That is the sort of thing

legislation like this should deal with. No hon. member can sensibly urge that the Bill is any improvement on the present legisla­tion.

Mr. PEASE (H erbcrt): I would like tr, correct a statement made by the hon member for Windsor before I deal with the Bill. The hon. member spoke feelingly about the present shipping trouble, and pointed out that in his opinion the trouble was entirely due to the men.

An OPPOSITION MEMBER: What has that got to do with the Bill ?

The SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! 'l'he hon. member seems to think that because an hon. member makes passing reference to the matter he can pursue it.

Mr. PEASE: The suggestion of hon. mem­bers opposite is that by appointing two lay­men to this tribunal the employers will not get a fair go. The hon. member for Wind­sor dealt with that phase of the question, and expressed the opinion that the Board would not give that justice to employers which should be given.

Mr. GLEDSON : The hon. member for Knog­gera expressed that fear, too.

Mr. PEASE: The appointment of two lay members to the board is necessary. Mr. Justice Macnaughton, when vacating his seat on the Arbitration Court bench, pointed out

Mr. Pease.]

1410 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

that the duties of a judge of that court wore more .appertaining to a layman than to a lcgal man. He made that statement pub­licly. Surely an opinion of that nature coming from Judge Macnaughton, who sat in the Arhitration Court in company with the late Chief Ju·tice McCawley, should carry some weight. Judge .iYiacnaughton stated that iu his carefully-considered opinion the appoiutrnent. of a la:~n1an who 'vas not versed <'nlirely in law or brought up to the law -would C'nsuro the giving of better decisions. I am glad to plane that on record here. It goc' to show that the whole endeavour of the Go\·ormnent in dealing with the Indus­trial Arbitration Act is to amend it with a view to making it better. As a member representing such a district as the Herbert. v:hich inclu.des Innisfail, where we have fr.e­quently had industrial troubles, I contend that it wonl·d result in a great upheaval industrially if arhitration were abolished. I stand for arbitration, as does overy other hon. member on this side of the House. AftPr going into the industrial situation \Ve

realise that arbitration, with all its faults, has done a deal of good, and is the only system which allows a ,,-orker to stand up to his employer and obtain what he is rightly entitled to. The hon. member for B'n'. en pointed out that the ultimate result of direct action v.-as war. Direct action as opposed to arbitration is industrial war, .and nothing does more harm to the small busineb person and to the workers themselves than direct action. All through this debatc hon. members opposite have attempted to show that they stand for arbitration. Anyone who has followed the matter from its inceptioP must r-e:dise that arbitration in the first place was hrought forward by Labour to try to protect the weak from the strong. Without arbitration the strong always predominated. How could an employee meet his employer on cqual terms at a round-table conference? There could be no such thing. Haunting the employee in whatever he had to say WM the fear and knowledge that he was dis­cussing matters with his employer. with th" man who controlled and engaged him, with the man who could take away his job. The La hour GoYernment then passed the Indus­trial Arhitration Act. and. through the end~a­•·ours of tlw old members of the movement, they have brought it np to the stage at which we find it to-dav. Thev now find that the exiRting n1casurCs are ~not sufficient, thar something else is necessary to bring a bout the avoidance of industrial dispni,es .. Fron1 the remarks of hon. members oppos1te one would imagine that this party is always playing- for industrial disputes. I have just come back from the North. where I have taken part in the Federal election campaig-n. \Vc arc blamed for the shipping trouble: it. is said we were r0sponsible. l am !'Oing to show that we are not, and I shall link up with the matter the remarks of the hon. member for vVindsor in that respect.

Mr. ELPHJNSTOKE: ·what has that to do with arbitration?

:M1·. PEASE : The Prime Minister said-" The shipping combine had used

everv effort to smash the Commonwealth shipping line by insisting that shippers should s-end all their cargoes, or none at all, on associated companies' vessels."

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. PEASE: The position throughout Queensland is that Labour is blamed for this

[Jifr. Pease.

industrial tronble. Our opponents haTe linked us with the trouble, and they haye declared that we ha.-e been responsible for the discountenancing- of the ArbitratioiL Court.

:vir. KERR: So you have. }Jr. PEASE : The position the Government.

were placed in when the railwaymen decided to strike against arbitration was that eyery member of this party signed a pledge that he would stand behind arbitration, an-d. naturallv we stood hehind that pledg-e (Oppcsition interjections.)

The SPEAKER : Order ! :'vir. PEASE: \Ve stand hehind thoee

pledges v;e signed. \Ye do not sign pledges nnd then repudiate th~;rr:, as hon. members opposite do. E.-cry member on this side can nlwavs go back to his constituents and say~ " I V come to vou \Vith clean hands.'' (Opposition interruption.)

The SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! Mr. PEASE : Member, on this side of the

House and the Labour partv of Queensland <•re the only defenders ·of arbitration, although other people may say whnt thev

like. On the motion to introduce [4.30 p.m.] this Bill, the Secretary_ for Public

Lands, who has g1von son1o thought to the question, pointed out that the conditions throughout the world to-day were such that arbitration was the only salvation, because the workers natura!Jy were reaching out for more and more of th0 good thing~, and the hon. member for Toowong-who represents the Employers' Federation, who. arr, always opposed to arbitration, and I will pro.-c it to the hon. member if ho dcsir03 it -vet the hon. member savs that the Secre­tai·v for Public Lands, ,.;ho gave us some food for thought, was talking with his tongue in his cheek. All throngh the debate mem­Lwrs of the Opposition have been talking with their tongues in their cheeks. They do not wa.nt to see an irnprovcn1ent in the Arbitration Court. They would rather join \Yith the extreme section of Labour who want to destroy llw Arbitration Court. The hon. membe1· for Toowong and other hon. mem­bers of the Opposition arc trying to destroy arbitration. They are with the extreme employer who wants to mak<c all tho big peofits he can. and who is not satisfied with a fair return ; and I link up with them the :'\ational l;nion-the bosse, of the Opposi­tion-who do not want fair profitc, and who do not want co-operation. 'rhe .. - want to make all the profits they can. and they see in their chase fo1· these profits that one of thE' great obstacles is the Arbitration Court.

Then linked up with the other side to destroy the Arbitr.rtion Court is the extreme Labour section. There is a section of Labour that is out to destroy arbitration. 'l'he hon. member for Enoggera read extracts from a report of the Labour Convention at Emu Park, and he was quite right. There is a section in the Labour movement which prefers direct action, but there is no member who has been right through tho industrial movement-cspeciallv members who live in ~orth Queensland, "Where you have to deal with men from all parts of Australia and from all parts of the world-who do..:s not realise the danger of direct action. We realise that the only salvation for the work­ing cl~ss, for the commercial people, for the financ1al people, and for evervone else is arbitration; and they should stand shoulder

Industrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.) Act Amendment Bill. 1411

to shoulder with the Labour party in putting arbitration. on a pinnacle. That is what we are trymg to do.

The measure before tbis House is an honest attempt, on the part of the Labour Govern­ment of Queensland, to bring forward some­thing better than has appeared up till now. It is something which will improve arbitra­tion. Instead of just taking old statistics. as the hon. member fm· Townsville pointed out has been done for years and years m regard to the cost of living, there will be connected with the Arbitration Court a bodv of men whose dub· it will be to collect all" the frtcts affecting industry. Hon. members opposik· say that the manufacturing industrie' have gone to pieces under this Government: that we are not out to improve n1anufa-ct.urc::-:, and so on.

In the :\lorth we conid put thousands of pcuple in the SLJgar industry to-cby were it not that we have reached the limit of pro­duction. Our position is as the Premier pointed out to-day. The question is to pro­vide profitable market~ for the products we have at the present time. Even if it were possible for w; to go ahead with \Yool. we have not tlH' land for the wool. How can 1ve in1provc our \VOol industry until we ('Ut up more land for closer scticlemcnt ., The Governor, v1hen in To,vnsville the other day, pointed out that the policy of this Govcrn­mf'nt "\Vas a good one, as we \vcre cutting up big estates. and he speciallv mentioned Julia Creek. He said he wa"s pleased to see a hive of industrv there solelv due to the policy of this Government. "

The SPEAKER : Order ! Mr. PEASE: I shall content. mvself with

showing the Opposition exactlv how they stand on the question 0' arbitration.

1\'Ir. CoSTELLO : 8~1ow us how you stand yourself.

Mr. PEASE : The genesis of the attack on arbitration rests with Sir Henry Barweli, a man who is the Black Labour Apostle of Aust-ralia, but a man who had more spunk in him than hon. members opposite because he cried out f01· black labour. I am quot­ing from the South Australia " Hansard " for 1922. Sir Henry Barwcll, in moving ·-the abolition of arbitration so far as South Aus­tralia was concerned, said-

" I move that this Bill be read a second time. it is the most import-ant Bill we have had before Parliament for many years. Its object is to abolish the Industrial Court, the Board of Industry, and Industrial Boards. 'No believe that the whole system of compulsory arbitration is fundamentallv unsound.''" ~

He concludPd by SRying-" I expect support from all members

of the House ot-her than Labour members. The measnre will, I know, mc"et with much appwval from employers."

Then Sfmator 'l'hompson. who is now con­testing the Federal election in Queensland, advocated the same thing. He was chair­man of the fifth annual meeting of the Employers' Association of Central Queens­land on 30th October, 1922, and he is reported to have said on that occasion-

" He was not. a believer in the Arbitra­tion Court. The present basic wage of £4 5s. was too high. 'The Mount Morgan men should accept the company's offer of a 20 per cent. reduction in wages."

Tlw hon. member for Oxley, who has not spoken :vet on this Bill, pointed out that he \\·as in favour of wages boards. The editor of t-he " Sun " took the hon. member to task in on editorial in which this is stated-

'· Before arbitration there was a class of Labour leaders and anti-Labour leaders who thrived on industrial dis­satisfaction and disa.ffection."

:\Ir. A. D. 2\IIcGill \Yas the Opposition hope a little \vhile ago when they were looking for a leader. I do not know whet-her they have scrapped him yet, but \:e may hear about it later on.

2\llr. CORSER: You will hear of him all right.

The SPEAKER: Order!

JHr. PEASE: Addressing- the Queensland \Yemen's Electoral League on the great industrial arbitration question, .:Vlr. :VlcGill said-

" The re•-ult had been to throw a huge unnecessary and unfair burden upon in~ du~t.ry.

•· The great proLlem was to e~:olve a '<'hcme which would a('hieve the ,ame object and avoid a similar result.

" He questioned the wisdom of giving the court power to make such frequent awards.''

:1:Ir. BRAXD: \Vbat paper arc you quoting fron1 '!

l\lr. PEASE: It is not a paper. I am quoting- from Mr. McGill's address to the Quecmland \Vomen's Electoral League. I will show it to t-he hon. member. He further ~ald-

" It was unfair and unjust that mem­bers of the legal profession were pre­vented from appearing in the Arbitra­tion Court unless by consent of all parties.''

The Opposition·s propo,ed new leader objects to the court giving frequent awards and to Labour having representation in the court. He wants to confine the whole of the repre­sentation to his own profession.

An 0PPOSITIO~ MDIBER: Tbat is only your stdement. G1ve us the name of t-he paper?

The SPEAKER : Order !

:\Ir. PEASE: I am prepared to back up my sta.tement. If any member of the Oppo­sition dP,ires, I will prove my statement.

The SPEAKER : Order !

:\lr. PEASE: Mr. A. A. Watson. the President of the Manufacturers' As,ociation, \\ ho is linked up with the Opposition and i~ a colleague of the hon. mmnber for Too­wong, told a m0eting of returned unemploved soldiers that. if the casual employment c1a:use in the mnrds of the State Arbitration Court c-ould he suspended, work could be found for a certain number of returned men. This is reported in the "Crusader," which is the ~o]diel's' O\vn organ-

" This was a barrier which preven~ed returned sailors and soldiers from obtaining work. There were hundreds of houses in Brisbane which required painting. r:I'here was no rE~ason why returned men could not take on this work by contract."

Why do they want to destroy tlw Arbitra­tion Court? Why do they object ·;o it? Here

.Mr. Pease.]

1412 Iudustr·ial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

i3 a starement by the President of the Manu· f~wturt-·r _,' .t\ssociation, that, if lt were pos­sible to allow returned soldiers [,) work for any wa :e they liked. ~hey could go ahead and paint houses. That is why thcst' people are against the Arbitration Cou;·t.

Th0 Opposition know as well as I do that iLe L·;ng· Government in New South Wales are re 11~1dl'llir.g the Arbitration Court. Mr. 1lavin and ·~he Opposition destroyed the Act ··-the: emasculated it-and to-day Mr. Lang has to turn round and reconstruct the ,,_.stem. :VIr. Bavin. formerly Attorney­Ceneral in New South \Vales, when moving the second reading of an amending· Bill in 1922, said that it would exclude public ser­vanb and also the rural workers from th•e Arbitration Court, and added in reply to a ·question:-

"Low wages are better than no wages.''

I often heard the hon. member for V'ii!rdsor, when he was leader of the Opposition, say that low wages were better than no wages.

An OPPOSITION MEMBER: Show us where he ever said that.

Mr. KERR: You are a fibber. You would -say anything.

Mr. PEASE: In February, 1923. Mr. Bavin reported that New South Wales, Vic­toria. Tasmania, and South Australia (all of which States then had Nationalist Govern· ments) had agreed-

., (1) Public servants must be excluded from the Federal Arbitration Court.

" 12) That the jurisdiction of the Federal Court be limited to certain industries considered to be Federal in <:haracter.

" (3) That a court be conetituted corn· posed of both Commonwealth and State judges for hearing appeals from Sta".;e tribunals in matters where questions of interstate competition are involved."

That practically meant scrnpping the ·State Arbitration Cou:Ms. Whe-re Labour Governments function in certain States these people wish to rely on the Commonwealth Arbitration Court because their friends are in power in the Federal arena, and they desire to -de~roy the State Courts. Senator Fairbairn, who was Chairman of the General Conference of the Employers' Federation--

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. PEASE: I am reading this f.or no other purpose than to show that the Opposition have always been opposed to arbitration. Senato·r Fairbairn presided at a conference ·at which ~his was carried:-

" (1) That the effects of ihe present svstem of arbitration are contrarv to equity and fair dealing. ·

" (2) That ihe provisions for prefer­ence to unionists be abolished."

Sir Robert Gibson moved:-" Tha: compulsory arbitration and con­

ciliation in Australia had failed to accomplish the purpose for which it was instituted, and should therefore be abolished. Carried with onlv one dis-sentient." "

Sir Robert Gibson has since been appointed a Director of the Commonwealth Bank by his •friend, Mr. Bruee. (Opposition interjections.) . At the same conference-

" Mr. McGregor (South Australia)

(Mr. Pease.

moYed that Government ownership of shipping be discontinued."

The SPEAKER : Order !

:Hr. PEASE: Other motions were-" That no public holiday bt' gra'lted

for Anzac Day, bu~ that it be held on the nearest Sunday.

"'l'hat holidays in all States be rc·duccd to se Yen per year."

The SPEAKER: Order! I hope the hon. member will obey my call to orde>.', The hon. member will not be in order in doing Hoth· iug else but quoting extracts. ·

OPPOSITIOX :MElfBERS : Hear, lwa-r !

Thf' SPEAKER: Relevant quotations are permic,sible, but the hon. member is now u>ing matter which is quite irrelevant.

Mr. PEASE: I think I will now deal with the Single Purpose League. (Opposition laughter.) The single purpose of this leagu_e is to destroy arbitration in Australia. (Opposi­tion dissent.) On the eve of the last Federal elections thev sent nut a circular. (Opposi· tion interruption.) 'The Opposition know that what I say is true. (Opposition inter-ruption.) ·

The SPEAKER : Order ! Mr. PEASE: The Single Purpose League

-an offshoot of the National Union-is out to fight Labour at all times. (Opposition interruption.)

The SPEAKER : Order ! I warn hon. members on my left that, if they disobey my call to order, I shall name them.

Mr. PEASE: The hon. member for Towns­ville. who was a candidate at the last Federal election, has dealt with the Single Purpose League. He received a pamphlet from the Single Purpose League asking him as a Federal candidate to declare his attitude on arbitration. (Opposition interruption.)

Mr. MAXWELL interjected.

Mr. PEASE: I am quite certain by the way you howl. I have addressed meetings at Innisfail and other places where we are supposed to meet with all sorts of opposition.

The SPEAKER: Order ! If the hen. mem­ber invites interruption, he must expect it.

Mr. PEASE: My purpose in rising was to show that throughout Australia hon. mem­bers opposite are opoosed to arbitration. They object to the Government amending

the law in order to bring about better results. I am quite satisfied that the appointments that will be made will be wise appointments. The Labour party always makes fair appointments. We do not appoint any man off the street to a position. The Opposition know that quite well. The Labour Govern· ment appoint persons of honour and integrity, and not persons biased in favom· of the Xational Union, or the Single Purpose League. The members will be there to carry out their work in the interests of the people of Queensland. Every hon. member on this side stands for arbitration. We realise that, if the extreme section of the Labour party who are out to destroy arbitration achieves its purpose, it will be a bad day for every· one in Australia, because we are quite satis­fied there must be a tribunal like the Arbi­tration Gourt to which we can refer the settle· ment of our industrial problems .

The Premier has arranged for coal to be supplied to a certain oversea vessel. The

Industrial Arbi'tration [20 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1413'

Opposition do not say anything about that. At the present time industrial magistrates a:·e carrying out certain duties in Queensland m connection with the rotary trouble. At the present time there is a dispute with the water­side workers, and the industrial magistrates at Innisfail, Townsville, and Cairns have arranged to take a secret ballot under t~e direction of the Arbitration Court. That IS

the only way in which we can carry on indus­trv. I am auite satisfied from the way the Opposition howl that they are not in favo~r of arbitration. I feel certain that, when this Bill becomes law, something beneficial will be accomplished.

Mr. VOWLES (Dalby) : It is very for­tunate that sometimes we are able to have an opportunity of witnessing some of the stuff that the hon. member for Herbert puts over the people of Innisfail and other places. The extreme deductions which he draws from some of the literature he read were rather farcical. The hon. member took exception to Mr. McGill, a member of the legal profession, objecting to the fact that legal assistance was not given to the Arbi­tration Court unless it was permitted. Within the last month or so one of the judges asked that legal assistance should be given in a matter w,hich was considered to be technical and required handling by a legal man. If the judge is to be relied upon as one competent to express an opinion in other directions, why cannot his opinion be accepted in that instance?

Another direction in which we are asked to take notice of his distorted remarks is his statement that he considered laymen were rriore competent to come to a decision in respect to industrial matters than judges. It will be noticed that he said, " in cer­tain matters." Are we going to agree to appoint two laymen with the necessar:< capacity from a trade and industrial point of view to give all the information, con­sideration, and all that is necessary to the hearing, and contend that their decision will be superior to the decision arrived at bv legal men after hearing the evidence? They may be specialists in certain direc­tions, but they are not specialists m every-thing. ·

A GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Is the judge a specialist?

Mr. VOWLES: He is not, but he is trained to dissect evidence and find out the faults and shortcomings of witnesses, and then give his best decision. The hon. mE'mber for Herbert said that with arbitra­tion the strong would predominate. We had evidence of that in the recent railway strike. Hon. members opposite stand up and tell us they stand for arbitration. Do they say that the Arbitration Act is carried out when strikes or dominations such as we recently saw are allowe'd to take place in Queensland? Was the railway strike a legal strike? Was notice given of the intention to strike? Was a ballot taken as provided by the Act? If we are to stand by the law in one detail, we must stand by it in all details. Hon. members opposite have told us that in arbitration the strong pre­dominate. Unless the Arbitration Act is carried out in every detail-at any rate so far a~ our public utilities are concerned-the Go­vernment will allow themselves to be pre­dominated by an outside authority, which will administer the law of the land, which the Government are supposed to do.

It has been state<:l that one of the reasons­why the Bill should be brought into opera­tion is because certain research should be made by the administrative department o£ the Board of Trade and Arbitration t<r "esist the board to come to its conclusions. The functions of the tribunal are provided for in two distinct departments-one judicial and the other administrative. We heard a good deal recently about certain data. and information which had been collected by the­late Chief Justice McCawley.

Mr. MAXWELL: Hear, hear! Mr. VOWLES: It has been said that the­

late Chief Justice McCawley m'ade a collec­tion of most important data. I would like­to know the cost of obtaining that informa­tion to that gentleman, because, if he has been out of pocket in obtaining that informa­tion, the State should recoup that expense, as the information was gathered for the pur­pose of this research. The excuse is found with respect to that research to bring about a change in the present system of arbitra­tion. Recently an Economic Commission was appointed under the Industrial Arbi­tration Act. Certain information was gathered, but it has not been acted on by the Government, and the court has there­fore not had the opportunity of mB.king use­of it. This Bill is entitled-

,, A Bill to make better provision for the regulation of the conditions of indus­tries by means of industrial conciliation and arbitration; to establish a Board of Trade and Arbitration, and to define· its jurisdiction and powers."

We are going away from a certain Act to an uncertain one. We are taking big risks in altering the constitution of the court and <;·iving functions which are now discharged by legal men to laymen, who, as the hon. member for Bowen said, will act as good' Labour men.

Mr. CoLLIXS: What is wrong with good Labour men?

Mr. VOWLES: If what the hon. member calls " good Labour men" are men like him­self and other hon. members on the other side-sim'ply rubber stamps to carry out the instructions of outside organisations-then I say, " For goodness sake do not let us have 'good Labour men' on the board." My idea is that. if a man who is appointed will not judge according to the weight of evi­dence and decide matters on their merits, apart from political bias, then no appoint­ment should be made on the understanding that it is a reward for political action in the past and a promise of political action in the future.

The " Standard " of to-day mentions two­names as appointees to this board. \Ve are told in the Bill that a member of the Board of Trade and Arbitration shall not be ea pable of being a member of the Legislative Assembly, but here in the official Labour organ we have the heading-

" PREMIER A:\D ATTORNEY-GENERAL LIKELY TO BECO>IE INDUSTRIAL JUDGES.

" PASS!liG OF NEW ARBITRATION BILL WILL }lEAN A REORGANISED CABINET."

In this paper we can see the photographs. of ·• :Xlr. \V. N. Gillies, State Premier;" and " Mr. .J. ::\fullan, Attorney-General," each of whom is expected to become one of th8' lay industrial judges. ·

Mr. KELSO: Who is to be the new leader of the Government?

Mr. Vowles.l

1414 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

M . VO\YLES: I understand it is to be t.he S" cretary for Public Lands. If that is so. the position will be highly unsatisfactory. vV P do not want to see men .appointed who, because of the positions thev have held in the past. arc prejudiced in ce'rtain directions. We have seen this afternoon that the desire Df the ].eft wing of the Labour party is that _,.e should have men whom thev describe as "good Labour mon"-partisans. If we are going to pnt Mr. Gillies and Mr. Mullan into the position of lay Arbitration judges, we shall rwt have men who have the necessar,· know ledge to carry out the functions of lay judges, because they are not conversant with all the various industries with which they will have t<J deal, and they will not have the legal knowledge which will enable them to dissect evidence and come to decisions on the cvidencP pro-duced.

A good deal has been said about strikes. The hon. member for Herbert tried to bring in the seamen's strike.

Mr. PEASE: The hon. member for \Vindsor brought it in.

Mr. VO\VLES: The hon. member for Herbert referred to all sorts of financial institutions. There .are plenty of financial institutions which have been of value to hon. members opposite and those standing behind them.

Mr. PEABE: We have not seen an\· of their money. I have not, anyhow. The 'only man who stands behind me is the worker.

:Hr. VOWLES: The hon. member went so far as to quote the opinions of men who han' hPen dead fifteen years as the opinions held in Queensland to-.day. The hon. member attempted to damn us· because we have a definite platform embracing arbitration, and stated that our platform was not a genuine one' and that we were out to sweat soldiers. The loo' hon .. memb-ers opposite say with respect to sold10rs the bPlter. On the doings at Beerburrum the dail,- Press gives suffi­cient "Yident-c to condemn hen. members opposite and their party for ever on that question.

There are many phases on the administra­tion of this Bill to which I ,hall eefer in Committee. Although the Bill is rather com­pre1wnslve and includes certain matters, pro­vision is already made in other directions for thos8 matters. \V hat necessity is there foe this board in its administratin": functions to administer the Profiteoring Prevention Act'! Does that mean that we are going to get rid of the gentleman who is now

administering that Act? I have f5 p.m.J never seen much virtue in it. but

are we going to have divided authority • .\re we going to have the Com· mi"ioner carrying out his functions, and is he going to be interfered with by someone who at a later date will be appointed to the board?

Then the board is-.. To- collect and publish from time to time statistics of vital, social, and indus­trial matters and on labour, employment, and unemployment in specific industries and on other prescribed matters."

\Ye have our "Industrial Gazette," which has been quoted from time to time in this House as the organ of ihe Government, and they rely on it in these statistical matters. The board is also empowered-

" To encourage and assist schemes for mutual co-operatiDn between employers and employees."

[Jlr. Vowles.

J., it not a funnv thing that at this late date-just. befoi'C' an election-the Govern­ment should nut that plank in the Labour platform" How often _have. we asked them t" introduce that prmc1ple m a.nother dnec­tion and thcv have definitely turned it clown? ·· T~ encou~·age and assist schemes for mntual co-operation between employer and employees'' is a plank of tho Country _Party's platform. That is another plank which h~s be0n Rtolen frmn us, and is now brought In a< a side lino in connection with the Indus­trial Arbitration Act. There arc other hon. !IICmbcrs who desire to speak on this matter, and I shall reserve any further remarks I han• till wo get to the Committee stage.

l\Ir. ELPHIXSTO::'-i"E (01/ey): It seems the height of irony to be discu~sing arbitration at this stage when one has JUSt returned from '\orth Que<msland where. the ':"hole country is in a st>tte of seethmg discontent and direct action. It is a pity that those who are debating this question in this House have not had the opportunity of visiting that part of Quoemland which has been " black " long enough-politically I mean-and seeing what real!~· is the respe~t in which arbitration is held in that part of Queensland. In the electorate of the hon. memher for Bowen, for the sake of illustration, primary produc­tion is !wing held up at the point of ~he pi,tol. There are hundreds of men starvmg in the hon. member's electorate.

-:\1r. COLLIXS: That is a deliberate lie.

:\Ir. ELPHI::'-i"STCJXE: You should be up tlwre to see it for yourself.

-:\Ir. COLLTXS: It. is a lie. The SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. mcm­

lwr fm_- Bowen, as an old parliamentarian, must know that the expression " a deliberate li" ., is not parlian1entary, and I rr1ust ask him to withd,·aw.

Mr. C'OLLI'\S: The hon. member for Oxlc,- said that there were hundreds of men in n~y electorate starving, and I said it was a del ibcra to lie. I say so still. They are not staning, and the hon. member cannot prove that they are starYing.

The SPE~\KER : The hon. member must withdraw that expression.

Mr. COLLI"\"S: What expression must I withdraw' The truth?

The SPEAKER : Order ! Whether the statement made by the hon. member for Oxley is true or not is beside the question. The wotds " deliberate lie" arc unparlia­mc-ntarv. and I am in duty bound to- call upon the hon. member to withdraw that expression. I hope the hon. member will withdraw.

Mr. COLLI:'-JS: In deference to you, Mr. Speaker, I withdraw.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. ELPHIXSTO)IE: I have no intention of withdrawing any statement I made, which was not personal. I investigated matters myself, and the pity of it is that the hon. member who represents that electo-rate does not go amongst the people there and see for himself the position which has been brought about bv the action of certain men in Bowen who ha~e taken direct action and defied the Arbitration Court. These men are deliberately defying the Arbitration Court, and are holding the whole community at

Industrial Arbitration [20 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1415

'arms' length. It means that, instead of arbitrat-ion being the succes~ that hon. gentlemen opposite are trying to make out, it is being defied and direct action engaged in, Rlld it seems the height of irony to come back to this House and find that the first n1easure one is asked to debate is an an1end­nwnt of the Indu,trial Arbitration Art which the pc ople in :\ orth Queensland are absolutely defying.

Mr. PEASE: You do not know what yon nre talking about.

::\Ir. ELPHIJ'\STO:'\E: I have come st1 aight from the scene of war, and that is the position, and it is time that hon. mem­bers in this House should know it. The vo-ition at· Cairns is very nearly as bad.

':I.Ir. PEASE : Rubbish! Mr. ELPHINSTOKE : It is not rubbish,

and the pity is that the gentlemen who are responsible for the state of a.ffairs that exists there do not go to see the situation for· themselve>< and try to put things right. ]).Ien in Bowen distinctly stated in my pre­H'ncc that they were not going to stand for arbitration-they had finished with it. They have no confidence in the Arbitration Court, and think that bv direct action thev are going r.o get wha£ the railwaY men got in n sin1ilar manner. "

l\lr. HYNES: You made a similar state­ment in this House before.

Mr. ELPHINSTOXE: I will clear that Ill a ttor up emphatically once and for all. I do not stand for the Arbitration Conrt as .at present constituted. I do stand for arbitra­tion and conciliation. but I have argued right through the prece that an Arbitration Conrt p1·esicl"d oYer by judges is not temperamen­tally fitted to hear and decide industrial trouble·· Therefore, I welcome the intro­duction of this Bill so far as it entails the a]1pointr...:ent uf luy1neu on the bench. But what do we sec 'to-day. My object is to get men ,. ho thoroughly understand industrial trouble. \Yho, msteacl of sticking at points nt law, "'J! l get clown to the real root of t_l!" tr?'!ble. a~d who by understanding the 'Iffic:u,ttes \Yhrch b0'.et the two contending

parties can a.rrrYe at a solution. But what do we, see fore( ast in the Labour journal to­mght: \Ve see that :\fir. Mullan and Mr G!lliPs are the elect to occupy these positions: VV hat an absolute farce ! Here is a man ~- ho has made arbitration a laughing-stock Jn Queet,sland-the present Premier-and he is going to appoint himself to a position on the Arbitration Court to deal with industrial pmblems; and Mr. Mullan, the Attorney­G. ·neral-although probablv more fitted for the position !han the Premier-yet he also ts hop':'l<:ss m regard to that important responstb1ht.y. \Ve have all along argued that tl11s Brll has been introduced in the last session of the last Labour Parliament that this country is- going to see for many years !O come, and we find that two of the most . :ncomp_etcnt Ministers are going to be placed m posrtwns carrying a salary of £2,000 a year for the rest of their lives.

Mr. KERB: Shame! Mr. ELPHINSTONE : A vote of this

Parliament, however, can remove these men and t~<;refo~·e it will be the duty of th~ Oppostbon m the next Parliament to see that these incompetents are removed from those positions.

I am perfectly certain that the Arbitra.tion ;Court is not !!"oing to be improved by the

altrrations ·.yhich are now proposed. Go­vet·nment members have been trotting out all this nonsense to us about their desire to do justice, but we know that their desire is nothing of the sort. All they have in mind is to allow two more aspirants to obtain ministerial office by getting rid of two men who arc in the ':'ay. That has been the position in regard to a good deal of the legislation of this Government, land the country has made up its mind that it IS

time this so-called Labour party was sent about its business.

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. ELI'HIXSTONE: One of the mam

reasons why that determination has been come to is the farce that has been made of arbitration. One of the very first actions of this Government after they first passed the Industrial Arbitration Act was to make a farce of it in connection with the Northern rail­\Vay strike by submitting the decision of the Arbitration Court to super arbitration. And, after being submitted to super arbitration, it has never yet been determined. Fortunately at that time the Labour party was in the hands of a man whose will prevailed. As the hon. member for South Brisbane said rccentlv. this gentleman held them in the hollow of his hand, a.nd we know that is true. vVe haYe only to see the position since he left. A more incompetent mass of men controlling the de,tinies of Queensland could not be imagined. Arbitration has been killed by these gentlemen, and to state that members on this side do not believe in arbitration is ~hecr nons('D8C'. l-Ion. members opposite knovr that ie not the case; but we do not stand for a kind of arbitration which, instead of settling disputes, makes them more difficult to dispose of. In due course we shall define where this side stands on this important qm:stion. Direct action does not appeal to us. We stand for ctrbitration. rnost Gnphatically and absolutely. \Ye have all along argued that industry can only proceccl if the two sections associated \vith it work in harmony and justice together.

Mr. HYNES: Yon arc an industriai jingo.

::'ofr. ELPIII:\'STONE: I will not tell the hon. member ., hat his own electors call him. (Laughter.) Indust.ry can only be advanced in this State by insisting on th·e determina­tion of disputes bv conciliation and arbitra­tion. The only respect in which some of us differ is as to how it is going to be applied. and for my part I would welcome that phase of this measure-if it were sincere-which has as its object the association of laymen with the judge, so as to bring about a proper solution of the difficulties which assail us. Bnt all that fine sentiment has been cast to the winds. At the eleventh honr out comes this official organ of the Government party and puts the cap on the whole position. What. else can one say? In the last gasp of a dying Parliament the Government propose to provide jobs for two Ministers-what we might call rewards for services rendered. 1 am sorry th<>c th<> hon . member for Brisbane had entrusted to him the difficult and objectionable task of bring· ing forward a measure which h0 surronnde<i with all sorts of fine expressions and referred to authorities who were authorities and to men who were men, whereas the motive be­hind the Bill and behind his speech was to cloud the issue, which really is whether a last political refuge shall be fonnd for two of his colleagues who have outlived their useful­ness!

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. Elphinstone.]

1416 Industrial Arbitration [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

At 5.13 p.m., Mr. GLEDSON (Ipswich), one of the panel

of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Speaker in the chair.

Mr. ::V1AXWELL (Toowong): I think we han• arrived to-dav at one of the most humiliating positions it is possible for a Parliament to reach. We have heard speeches from the Secretary for Public Works and some of his colleagues as to the reason for the introduction of this amending Bill. but we find from the official organ of the Labour party. or the Communistic party, or what­ever party you may choose to call it, that it is the intention of the party to appoint the Premier and the Attorney-General to be judges of the Board of Trade and Arbitra­tion. If the Government had any desire to pay tribute to the memory of a man who was a worthy judge-the late Chief Justice McCawley-they could have donf> it by perpetuating his court; but instead they are dragging the nam·e of Queensland in the mud and degrading the positions they occupy. To my mind we find ourselves in a most humiliat­ing position. The Minister tells us tnat m the interests of the worker and the community it is desirable that the Industrial Arbitration Act should be amended. Actually. what for? To find positions for two men on the front Treasury bench. If such a position arises, then on their shoulders be the responsibility.

The late Chief Justice McCawley said that strikes a.nd lockouts were an inefficient and barbarous method of determining disputes, and did not necessarily mean the victory of right. I would like to ask hon. members on the other side of the House, " Is this amendment of the law going to put a stop to strikes? Is it going to inculcate a better feeling between one class and the other, or is it going to perpetuate that class conscious­ness which we have had to put up with for so many yf'ars from members opposite?" We h•we arrived at a stage in the history of this State when it behoves every man and woman in Queensland to speak out and say that they are not going to stand for such political jobs. The Labour paper has answered the question of why this Bill has been introduced. It has been int~·oduced so that the party may be able to g<>t nd of two men and find jobs for two more.

0PPOSJTION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. MAXWELL: It is not introduced for th<> purpose of arriving at some definite idea as to what the basic wage should be.

Parliament has already decided what the basic wage shall be, and has already stipu­lat<>d what shall be the number of working hours a week. The questions of holida vs, sick leave. and overtim<> have ah·eadv been dealt with. What are to be the powers of ;his Board of Trade and Arbitration which is to be created ? A few days ago I read in the Press that the New South Wales Govern­ment contemplated abolishing their Board of Trad<>. Here we have a neighbouring State abolishing its Board of Trade, and Queens­land Rbout to cr<>ate a similar tribunal. H has been asserted by the Labour journal io-night that two men on the front Govern­ment bench-the Premier and the Attorney­General-are to occupy those positions. What would hon. members opposite think if the QueE'nsland Employers' Federation and the BrisbanE' Chamber of Manufacturers were to make appointments of such a nature and in such a flagrant way? They would describe

[Mr. M axwell.

it as one of the most disgraceful episodes imaginable:

The hon. member for Enoggera stated that the Bill was in keeping with the objec­tive of the Labour party-the socialisation of industry, and I agree with him. The Bill provides that employers are to act as statisticians and prepare the necessary infor­mation for this Board of Trade and Arbitra­tion, which information will eventually lead to· their elimination from business. We know very well that this is only another attempt to enforce the plank of the Labour party dealing with the socialisation of industry, and if the people of Queensland will stand for that, they will stand for anything.

The hon. member for South Brisbane sug­gested that there were too many distributing agencies. Does the hon. member desire the· State to control all distributing agenciee, and rresent tbe same failure as we have witnessed in connection with all their State activities? Only the other day a sum uf £800.00C was written off one State enterpris<> to enable the Government to compete with private enterprise. The hon. member ex­r•resstld the hopP that aetion would bE' taken to prevent the increases granted by award;, being passed on to the price of the com­modities concerned. Do0s the hon. gentleman understand the position at all? I do not think hon. members opposite do realise the position. They should know that, when extra charges are imposed, where possible they must be piaced on the commodities. The empioyers in industry cannot carry on their businesses as benevolent institutions. They must pass on the extra charges through their commodities or go out of business altogether Then, the Govern­ment would have an opportunity of per­petuating their system of State control. The Bill would be acceptable to me if it meant a guarantee of industrial harmony and the prevention of direct action; but it does not give that guarantee. The hon. member for_ Bowen this afternoon spoke of a system of love and conciliation.

At 5.19 p.m., The SPEAKER resumed the chair. Mr. MAX'WELL : Bitterness and class con­

sciousness permeated his speech from begin­ning to end. The Bill will be of va.lue onl" if it will bring abont the stimulation of effort by those engaged in industries, thereby making nossible higher effective wages and the creation of a feeling of confidence in the stabilitv of industry so that the investment of capita!'will be encouraged. Will t.his amend­in<r Bill do this? Will the actiOn of the G;vernment in appointing to the ben~h tw? narty politicians who have stated their atti­tude in this Chamber. and what they would do to stimulate industry?

Mr. HYNES: Paper "tips" are always wrong.

Mr. MA X WELL: It will do nothine; of the kind. It will have the effect of _further clragging the name of Queensland m the mud. We shall find ourselves hopelessly 1 ied up, and there is -only one bod;y: . who can remove the State from that posJbon­i he elec~ors. I am personally prepared to go to the electors and let them give ihe1r answer.

The hon. member for Oxley has toured the Xorth. and he has told us of the most deplor­able condition of affairs existing there to-day. The Labour Government profess to stand for arbi";ration, for the upholding of the

Industrial A1·bitration [20 OCTOBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1417

law and constitutional government, and they have told us they can exercise controL In the face of these declarations the hon. membec for Oxley has made the statement he has. It is a disgrace to a British community, and I certainly hope that wiser counsels even at this late hour will prevail. I venture to say that, if '' iser counsels do not prevail and the Ministry per­sist in pursuing the course they are follow­ing, it will only be another in~tance of the truth of the old saying, "Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad."

Mr. KELSO (Nundah): I listened very carefully to the speech of the Minister in introducing this Bill, and apparen~ly he was very sincere in his statements. Be got very hot when it was suggested that two ::\1in­isters were to be appointed to tht· Arbitra­tion Courl bench.

Mr. KERR: He got a surprise. Mr. KELSO: If the statement that has

been made in the " St-andard," the official organ of the Government, is correct, then the hon. gentleman knew all about it.

'I'he SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: So far a;; I am concerned, I can say ~he matter has never been discussed.

GoVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Mr. KELSO : We are arriving at a stage

when we are never satisfied with statements made by hon. gentlemen opposite unless they are verified. We were discussing this Bill on the assumption that the Government wish to make an improvement on the Industrial Arbitration Act. The Minister quoted oprmon;; from judges pointing out the disadvantage of having legal men as judges, as their training unfitted them for the position, and now we have the anomaly of the Gov­ernment introducing this Bill to appoint a man, who according to that stat('rnent, is unfitted to carry on this work. They are obsessed with the idea that laymen should Le on -the bench. Assuming it to be a fact that two members of the Government, including the Premier, are to be appointed to that position, I ask the House whether they are capable of impartially c&rrying out the duties set out in this Bill? I should be out of order in referring to any clause in the Bill, but the administrative functions of the new tribunal are set out in clause 5, f)ara­graphs (a) to (l). There is a long list of rluties which these men are supposed to carry out impartially, and in paragraph (m) it is provided that they are also-

" To consider and report upon any other matter referred to it bv the Min-ister." ~

The list of duties set out for the member• of the board would tax the abilitv of an Admirable Crichton. The two gentlemen who are to be selected to occupy those positions are not Admirable Crichtons in any sense of the word. We know the experrence the Government went through in connec'tion ·with the recent railway strike, and, if any­thing could increase the lack of confidence which now exists in the State of Queensland in connection with our Arbitration Court. i~ will be these two appointments. They will intensify matters. This is absolutely doing what certain hon. members opposite would like to do-making a farce and laughing­etock of the institution, nothing more or less. One appointment in any case-that of the Premier.

The SPEAKER: Order! Order!

Mr. KELSO: If the Government are sin­cere in their intention, as expressed by the Secretary for Public Works, to bring this legislation up to date and appoint laymen who have some knowledge of the difficulties confronting the positions they will occupy, the reported probable appointments are not going to help in any way. For some reason the Government have decided to include quite a number of things in the administra­tion of this board in addition to arbitra­tion. Why on earth do they want to bring in the administration of the Profiteering Prevention Act? That is a mystery to me. A list of duties is enumerated which would require an expert to go into.

I am quite prepared to go a long way in approving the sentiments of the hon. member for Oxley. I have always held the opinion that it is not necessary to have legal judges in the Arbitration Court. Anything that has to be done by the Arbitration Court is a question of fact. Seeing that is so, there may be something in the contention that the legal mind is wedded to a certain routine and course of action; but, if we are to have laymen, those laymen must be men who have not been mixed up in the burly-burly of politics, and who have not announced time and again that their minds run in certain channels, as the minds of Labour politicians do, practically unfitting them for the high duties which a judge of the Arbi­tration Court has to carry out. When con­sidering the appointment of professional politicians those concerned should keep in mind the immense responsibilties attaching to these positions. There is power in the Industrial Arbitration Act to call upon the skilled experience of others when it is wanted; but the whole argument to-day is that these laym·en will be men of wide experi­ence and will be able to exercise calm and dispassionate judgment in the best interests of the workers of the State.

There is a provision in the Bill which seems to me to be extraordinary. T.he Registrar-General may be required to corn· pile and furnish any particulars required, and he may insist upon any person in the community furnishing those partculars. That is a most drastic power, and under it it may be possible for the Registrar-General to ask for information which should rightly belong privately to a man. Under this Bill the Official Inquiries Evidence Act of 1910 is to be put into operation, and, whether a man likes it or not, he will have to divulge information w.hich it may not be of advan­tage to him to divulge.

The SPEAKER: Order ! Order ! The hon. member is not in order in dealing with details in making a speech on the second reading of the Bill.

Mr. KELSO: The information we have just received with respect to the appointments that are to be made absolutely upsets the whole of the ·debate which has taken place to-day. We might just' as well erase it from "Hansard" altogether. It would have been far better for t.he Minister in charge of the Bill if he had been quite frank about it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I can assure you that, so far as I am concerned, I was quite frank, notwithstanding any news­paper statement.

Mr. KELSO: I have to accept the hon. member's statement. The hon. member may

Mr Kelso.]

1418 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.]

be quite frank, but the word " frank " in that tense may cover a multitude of sins. The hon. member ought to be so frank as to tell us that, when he stood up to make his second reading speech, he did not know a!1ything about the information that has br'en published in the " Standard."

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC VVORKS: I say it now if it will satisfy the hon. member. It i.s ne·ws to me.

::\Ir. KERR: It is true. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: It is

not true. :'vir. KELSO: The statement that has been

made in a paper which is recognised to be rhe Bible of hon. members opposite is not put there in order to be upset.

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. KELSO: That information has evi­dently some inspiration, and we on this side of the Hous·e can take it as being correct. I do not propose t,o carry on at this late hour. but I say that this news will be receive·d with dismay throughout Queensland, not only by those whom it is expected to help but h" the whole of the community. They will recognise that this is the last blow given to arbitration, and the sooner it is wiped off the statute-book the better.

Question-That the Bill be now read a second time-put and pa<sed.

· The consideration of the Bill in Committee was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

Tlw House adjourned at 5.33 p.m.

Paper.