Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 1905

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

700 Shearers, Etc., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Wa.1Js and JYieans.

LEG-ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

"WEDNESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER, 1905.

The SPEAKER (Hon. Sir A. S. Cowley, Herbm·t) took the chair at half-past 8 o'clock.

PAPER. The following paper, laid on the table, was

ordered to be printed :-De,patch, dated 25th Julv, 1905, tran<mitting Order in Council declaring His JYrajEst.y's assent to the reserved Bill entitled, "A Bill to reduce the salaries of the Governor and of his private secretary re­sper"lti vely."

QUESTION. Tm:cKING FACILITIES AT CoLnmooLA.

l\fr. LESIN A ( Clo·numt) asked the Secretary for RailwaYs-

Has the Commis.;;ioner for llailwn.ys mnde any attempt to impTovc the truch:ing facilities at Columi.'JOola and Baking- Board l:';idings t'or the transportation of sleepers to Dalby, for nse in the Dalby to Dell·1Iaida Hill-Cattle Creek railway~

The SJ<:CRETARY FOR HAILW A YS (Hon. A. ?.Iorgan, TVar1cick) replied-

Xo application has heen made to the Connnh,_siouer for improYccl trucking t'acilities at Columboola or Baking Board.

BRISBAXE TRAFFIC BILL. PllOPOSEJJ IN~'!WDUCTION.

On the motion of the HO?.lE Sl~CRETARY (Hon. P. Airey, Flind, >'s), it was formally re­solved-

That the House will. nt its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the \Vholc to consider of U1e desir­ableness of intl'O<lncing a lUll to make better proYision for regulating the trafi1c in the city and. snburbs of Brisbane, and for other purposes.

WAYS AND l\11'~AXS.

ADOPTION OF RESOLL"UON.

The CHAIRC\IAN OF COMMITTEES (Mr. J ackson) presented the resolution agreed to in Committee of \Vays and Means at the last sitting of the House.

The TREASURER (Hon. W. Kidston, Rock­ha-mpton) moved that the re"ulution be agreed to.

* HoN. R. PHILP (Townsdllt) : Before this question is put, I would like to enter my protest against the resolution being received by this House. No attempt was made in committee to justify this tax being imposed at the present time. It has been said th<tt it is desirable for some, of the big estates to be burst up. I main­tain that there has been no rell reason given to this House wh;z' this tax should now be imposed. It is a land tax pure and simple. [Opposition members : Hear, h< ar !] I maintain that this Government came into office under the solemn promise that no land tax would be imposed, and that no further taxation would be imposed, whether it was a land tax or any other taxation. During the whole of the debate in committee, no attempt wa,s made by any member advocating this tax to show that any of the large estates in the State were blocking close settlement. \Ve have at the present tinw an Act in our statutes enabling the Government to buy estatE''' that are required for close settlement. That Act has been largely availed of, and I venture to say it

JVays and Jdeans. [13 SEPTEMBER.] TJTays and ~1Ieans. 701

is one of the most successful Acts that has ever been passed by thic; House. [;\lr. HAMILTON : Th!\t is an argument in favour of this tax.] It is not an argument in favour of it. Accordmg to the tables given by the Treasurer in his State­ment, on page 18 we tind that the total amount spent in the purchase of estates amouuted to £875,000. That was the total money spent in purchasing estatf"~S b.v this Govei'nrnent and pre­ceding Governmenttl, and the value of the sales made by the Governments from that land totalled £\:Jlb,OOO. That shows a profit to the State on the sttl8s of £-lll,OOO. [The Tm:ASUHER: It was not any profit to the farmerti, though.] Beyond that there is something like £81,000 worth of land unsold. In addition to that the interest on this money i,, not more than 3~ per cent., and we are charging 5 per cent. for it, showing the enormous profit not only on the fir,t sale of this land, but al,o on the subsequent interest charged. If there httd been any cry from the country th<it this had been an unwi,e Act and it was doing harm, there might be something in it, but year after year members have got up in this House and saiu that this has been a splendid Act for producing clm;er settle­ment. 'Why should we not go on buying estates as they are required? Some of the members who have voted for this tax to be imposed have said themselves, "\Vhere are the J>eople to be had for the est9,tes which the Premier proposes burst­ing up?" rrhose were his words-" bursting up.~' \Vhat right have we to burst up any estates? \Vas that laud not lawfully acquired in the various centres of the State? \Vas that land stolen? [The 'fHEA8t:HER: It was given away.] I say that land was lawfully acquired by the holders, and we have no rigirt to unlawfully take it from them. No matter if a rmm holds only 1 acre or 100,000 acres, once he buys land from the Crown he ought to be protected to the fullest extent. [Mr. HA}l!W'ON : Then why tax a man's salary? The same logic can be used.] I say that there is not a shred of argument to show that these estates have not been fully worked up to the present time. In every case they have been used up to their fullest capacity. In some cases it might be desirable to-­[An honourable member: \\'hat .,1bout the Sea­forth Estate?] I am perfectly willing at any time to second the motion of any hon. mem­ber who proposes that inquiries be made into every estate that was purchased by the Govern­mem, wheLher it is the Seaforth Estate or any other. But what horJe have we, with seventeen on this side, in a House of seventy~ two, of ever passing such a proposal? If any member on the other side will propose it I will second it, and let the strict.,,t inquirY be made into all the estate,, purchased by the Governmeut. I make my protest against this Iniquitious tax~because it i:_ an iniquitous tax-it is not a fair tax. [The PnEMIER: \Vhere is the iniquity of it •] I have shown that the people of Queensland are paying 10s. per he:1d in taxAtion now, '\.Vhereas in Xew South \Vales and Victoria, with their land tax and income tax combined, they only pay 7s. per bead. Agaill, we do not r.etnrn ls. of that money to the landowners, hut in New South \Vales, Vic­toria, and New Zealand the bulk of the tax is returned to make roads and bridges in the dif­ferent estates. \Ve do not wish to have other States pointing to Queensland as the heaviest taxed State in Australia. \Ve should like to say that it is the iightest taxed State. [The PRE­MIEH: How can we avoid it if it has the heaviest debt?] \Ve have the largest assets. We have only sold 5 per cent. of our land, and I maintain that this tax will depreciate the value of the other 95 per cent., which is held by the people of Queensland. This will tax our own estates. A

great deal of the land that is expected to be sold under this Bill no farmer will ever seek to acfjuire. [All honourable wernller: Question !] It is not a question at alL The hem. member for \Varre<so has pointed out that the \V estern lanch will not be wcmted for agricultnre, and the hon. rnernlJer f<1r Q;--trpPutaria hi1H shown that a larr£e nnn1ber of sn~ar estates \Yi.ll be taxed under this Bill. Nearly 'tll tbose sugar esta,tes have built their own trarnways or railways. Nearly every sugar estate in N 11rth Quef-~nsland h::lR borrowed money and con~tructed t.L·t-un ways, which have il:n­prow l their property, nd 1 know of people in the Southern part of tl!e State who have borrowed money to build tramways to enhance the value of their land. They have borne the whole cost of that enterprise, and still they are to come under this ini<juitous tax. Any p»rty v. hich goes to the country and solemnly t:u,ys, " 'vVe will itnpose no land tax, no further taxation," and then comes clown to l'arliament with a proposition like thi8 is stultifying itself and the State, and no one is more stultitied in thiN c>tse than the Premier himself. Some noise has be n made about a Bill being rw1de public before its time. The Premier and the Treasurer had a good deal to say about the honour of the State on that occasion, ancl yet those hon. gentlemen propose to di,bonour the State by imposing such !1 tax as this . . I have no wish to stonewall or to take up the tlme of the House in discussing this n1atter, but at every opportunity when the tax comes forward I shall make a protest , gainst its being levied. No one knows bo·tter than the Treasurer that it is not requi-red. -[Mr. KEm{: You can under­stand our attitude on syndicate railways now, can't you?] lf the hon. member for Barcoo will travel a little in the North of (.~ueensland, and see some of the .-<yndicate railways built there, he will see what a splendid thing it would be to build more railways-syndicate or other­wise. The people in that part of the State have no hope of getting a railway from the Government, and the)- will take any railway they can get. p1r. KEHR: 'fhey don't treat their employees wdl.] The hon. member is not a very large employer himself. Has he always treated his employees well? [Mr. KERR: Yes; I have] Well, he ought to be the last man here to say that employers treat their employees badly. I think that, on the whole, employers in Queensland treat their employees exceedingly well. 'l'he Chillagoe Company treat th-·ir emplovees well, and pay them their wages every month.

'fhe SPEAKER: Order ! I must ask hon. members not to make clisnrderly interjections, which !t-ad the speaker away from the question under consideration. The only question now before the Hou<e i., the reception of this resolu­tion.

Hox. rt. PHILP: I apologise for making any disorderly rernarkt·J; it it:J only in reply to inter­jectiono that I have digressed from the question before the House. Tl1e Cirillagoe Railway Com­pany pay their employees every month as those wages become due. 'fhe question we bave·know to consider is whether we should impose this tax. [The'l'REASUHE!{: No; the questinn is: Are we to discuss it?] \Vhy not? The resolution is now before us, and we are entitled to discuss it for a week, if we please. [Ths THEASUREH: You have alrPady done it.l I remember the Trec,surer on one occasion discussing a Bill before its first re1ding, and keeping thi' House six weeks over a trumpery little railway Bill. The hon. gentle­man ought to be the last man in the House to talk a.bout wasting time over this matter, as you will find volumes of Ha.nsard occupied by speeches delivered by him. This is one of the

Hon. R. Philp.]

702 1V<;,ys and 1lieans. ~ASSEMBLY.] 1Vays and Jlieans.

most important 1:\ilh that baR ever been brought before this Assembly, and yet the hon. gentle­rnan talks a.bout wa.ti 1·ing time in discns:::.ing it. It was gtven out the other d:ty that I was going to propose an amendment to make this a genPral land tax . . I have never said so, and nobody can point to anything in n1y speeches to show that I had any wch intention. I said a general land tax would be fairer than this proposer! tax. [The THEASCJ<EH: Your usual inaccnracy.] The '_freaf!nrer i~ very often inaccurate. _H,, put up the Home SecretHry to put forward a nuntber of myLhR-slatemm1ts full Df inaccnraeies. rrhP. ::;peech of thP holl. lll€l11ber for Barcoo wa,s also full of inaccuracies. I want to point out that there ar<' thirty-five men in this House who are pledged to a land t~x. [;ilr. CmYAl': This is not a land tax.] If it is not a land tax, I do not know what it is. 'rbose hon. members are bound to support a land tax, and I do not quarre-l \Vith then1 for doing ::iO, because it is one of the planks of their J>latform. But there are ~upporh:::rh of the GoYBrnnwnt who are called the l\loL:an party. 'l'hey came into this House following tbelr leader who was pledged to no land tax, and yet the very fir.st opportunity they get they heak their pledges at the will of their leader, because thB vote last night "as a party vote entirely. Xot a single mttn sup­porting the Goverumeut who .-.:aid he \Vonld not vote for a land tax did other than vote as their leader, the Premier, told them. I hope we shall go tc> the country some day. fMr. :.\ICRPHY: You may stay in the country.] I do 110t know thttt I should lose much if I did cltay in the country. I have h:td very much better company in this House than I have at present, but if I go to the country I sh"ll try to come lmck here, and I do not intf'nd to leave my old electorate. I hope the House will reconsider the hasty vote which was given last night, because, in Iny opinion, hon. n1e1nber~ never consid,~r~d their vote when they gave it. There are estates of 3,000 or 4,000 acres which are just as intensely cultivated by the owners-a company, or an in­dil"idnal-as they would be if there were forty or fifty tenants on the land, and it would be a great injustice to tax those lands as propmed in the resolution. It would be a great injustice to tax sugar lands which have been improved by the construction of tramways at the expense of the owner". [The TREASURim: \Vhere are the 4,000 acres undc,r interme cultivation?] In the Bunda­berg district there are estates of 2,000 acres owned eitherbyonemau ora company. ['rhe'rREASURER: That is not 4,000 acres.] And in North Queens­land there are estates of upwards of 4,000 a0res under cultivation. [:.\ir. PAGET: On the Pioneer and the 1:\nrdekin.] The Pioneer plantation keeps the whole ot that district going. 1'he owner., of that estate were the first to show the value of irrig-ation in cane culti\ ation 1 and they were also the means of introducing a board at 'Iownsville and Ayr to build a raihv2oy. The n1en v.rho undertook that enterprise pledged their land for the rcpo,yment of the money borrowed, with intere.,t, and they will alr;o lw trcxed under this re,olntion. [The Pm:MH:R: Pledged their land?) Of courRH they h~ve. there no l:metited" ea·: [The PmcMIER: has been done und r the 1,-amways Act.) does not 1nat.ter whetl1Pl' it \va~, done nndertheTraiuwavs Act or not. [The PuEMmu: Oh, yes; because. there is !JO benefited area.) If the receip',s from that railway Jo not cover ~Aorldng expP111-'E'S and interest on the cost of construction the difference will have to be made up by those people. [The Pmnrnm : The whole of the people in that locality are taxed, not sin,pl)' those men­tioned by the hon. gentleman.] There is a benefited are,, and only those in the benefited area are taxed. [The "PuEMlEI\: No.] I say

[llon. R. Philp.

there is. At all e\'ents, the whole of their land is pledged for the payment of interest and redemption in connection with the loan, and it wonld be a great inju;-;tlce to tax those persons under thi< propo,al. T!Jey are already taxed undc,r the Income Tax Act, aL··o under the Local Authorities Act, and as guarantors for the rail­\vay; and now the Treasurer proposes to irnpoMe a funrth tax upon them bec.au~e tbev own more than :l,OOO acres of land. Snch a tax has never vet been attempted to be l.evied in any Australian Sbte. [Mr. ILUIII/l'OX: In to-clay's paver it is stated that South ...:\._ustralia iR introducing a land tax.l Tha~ may be; but I "ay that no State in Australia ha~ evPr in1p(/sed sue:h a tax as this, and no sensible State which has such" quantity o[ unalienated land as we possess would depre­ciate the value of that land by imposing such a tax. Of course, I know there is not a single rnan on the opposite ,id" of the Home who will vote agaimt the resolntiGn; bnt I in~end to test the House again by calling for a drv1s10n when the que· .. tion is put.

1Ir. ,T. LEAHY (Bu/loo}: I should like to say a fe\V wPrds on thj'; qnE-;tion. First and fore­rrloKt I 111uSt expre~s 1nv surprise at the ~tate­men~ tnade by the Trea~nrer~ by \Vay f;f ]ntPrM jectkn, that this is not the timu to di,ct!S" this rnatter. TI--w hon. gentlrman i~', nf course, abso­lutely ignorant of the rule' and procedure of the House. [Tbe THEASl:RER: Of conr,;e. \Ve are ,t}l iguorant.) Everybody knows that this is the first time this matter has been br.fore the House, although t\w Chairrn'm of Committees stated that the resolution ''as passed at the ladt sitting of the Home. It was " sittinp.: of the com­mittee-which is a very different thing. This is the first time this matter has cume befure the How-e. ..t:\.. certain re-;olution was pa;;;sed in another phce where hem. members deal with the que'ltinns in a free and easy way; and thi,; is the time for the Home to consider that resolution. \Ve are only in the House when tbe Speaker is in the chair. This resolution is very different from the resolution which was introduced in another place, and I call the attention of hon. members opposite to thi, particular phase of the question. 'l'he resolution as originally intro­duced by the Treasurer did not exempt even half an acre of land, if it was worth a specified amount. The Treasurer amended that in com­mittee, and made the resolution apply to estates above 2,000 acre·,. [The THEASUIUm: No.] \Vhere werP the members of the IJabour party? 'Where was the hon. member for Olermont, who says he believes in a land tax? \Vhere were thosememberswhen this rcosolution was amended? [JHr. LESIXA: I don't want the bludgeon of a dissolution brought down on my head, becanse I do not agree with the"e things.] In the resolu­tion as brought forward by the Treasurer there was no exemntion '"t all. The exemption of 2 000 acres 'vas afterwards put in by the Treasurer. [The TrmAst:mm : Quite incorrect.] \Vhat Wftil the amendment which was made? \Vas it not tor ,empt 2,000 acres'! That was the effect of it, a!fhonght the hon. gentleman said it did not mo.ke any particnlar difference. [The 'rREA­SURI<'H : It did not make any differer.ce whatever.] Prolublv it did not make any difference in practice, bnt the resolntion that vvaR originally submitted to the Con1rllittPe contain8d 110 t~xemp­tion whatever. The t:>hles stated the values-

t~at, if an est,~te was of a certain [4 p.m.] Yalne the exemp:ion came in, but

there was no exemption in reg-ard to area. Of course 1t is open to the HIJuse at this stage to consider whether the tax will apply to 2 000 acre, or to 1 acre, or whether it will apply t~ value only. That rests entirely with the majority of this House to decide. Members of

"IV a,ys and .ill ea ns. [13 SEPTKCIIBER.] Tf"a,ys and Means. 703

the Labour party do not seem to understand the position. (Government LmRhter.) There is another phase of the question tu which I wish to call attention. It is either a land tax or else it is what has been calied a tax for bursting np big estat""· Take it which way you will, it is ob­noxious and iudefe1"ible. [Mr. TCHNEH: It is obnoxious to your mind.] It will not affect me at a1l. 'rht3 hon. me1nber for Gregory, \dL> ia the "\Yhip" of the maj.,rity ,f the !'arty on the otht"'r side, r-aid a while ago that we ·have at:: 1nueh tif:;ht to tax a nlan\; la11d a8 to tax his income. [Mr. 1-LDliLTOx : So we h::tVe.] Quite "'· If it is a tax, it is all right. If it is a tax, then it is a land tax, because it is 0n the land that it will fall. But t-he Treasurer says that it is not a tax at all-that it is fJroposed for another purpooe alt0gether-that it is in tended to burst up large e::tates. It ><eems to me that hon. members opposite do not know exactly where they are. (Gowmment laughter.) If it is a land tax, it is a iand tax of the mosc objectionable form. It is objectionrd.Jle for all the rendons ~iven by the leader of the Opl""ition, and for a great many oi:hers bec:idc~., which 1nay be given \vhen \Ve con­sider tlw Bill at the second readin1;· stage, if it gets to that But at the present time we have to consider resolution which contains the principle underlying that Bill, and on which that Bill is to be founded. \Vhen we come to discuss the merits of the Bill at later stages, or to propose amendmel!ts, e may be told that they are not within the 'cope of the resnlution on which the Bill was founded, so that this is the time to ascertain what the scope of the re,olution is. If it is a taxation Hlf'-,ASl.Ht>, it is 1nost unfnir and indefensible. There is no instance of such a tax in any State in Australia; and, as the leader of the Uppositi,m pointed out, in those States where they have a htnd tax the great bulk of the rec"ipts are returnerl to the local authorities for making roads and bridges. If, on the other hand, it is a burstine;-up tax, it is equally indefensible, because it is inequitable. On what principle does a Government that sold land wholes:.le a month or two months ago-right up to the meeting of Parliament-that sold the largest estates ever sold in (lueensland-on what principle does thatGovernmentnowcome forwctrd and say that it is desirable to burst up large estates, when they are the very people who have been guilty of selling land, it it is guilt to sell land? [Mr .• TExKrxsoN: It was guilt if they had this in their mind's eye.] It was guilt if they considered it a crime to own a large estate. It was nothing else than a moral sin of the worst dfscription. At the present time those who are supposed to be the fol­lowers of the Premier are 1rwst conspicuous by their absence. There were a good many of thetn who, on a recent occa;;-ion, were almost running over one another in order tn express their views. \V here are thev now? This is the opportunity for them to exr;ress their' :ews. I know it is said, if I may be alJO'.\ ul to speak metaphorically, that when >·ome people Hre ia trouble tbe} look for a hollow log to crawl into till the trouble is over. Hr,ve th"e hon. mem-bers opposite each a hollow log to cra,vl into nnbl they uut G; trouiJled wat~rs? (Laughter.) I have no hesitation in saying \hat this j, a very objectionable f:1rm of tax. The Treasurer 1night lle good enougb, in any caRe, to explain the re,olutiou tn ui;). 1 certainly do not think the Clerk-with all tlw rT,pe~:" we have for him, and for his J,·ng expedence of thin0 or forty Y"ars in this House-read the resolution rightly. I think he read it wrong-ly. As read by the Clerk, the resolution was rneaningl0ss. If the Tre<tsurer would be good enGugh to tell us what the resolution means, we would be obliged

to hirn. [The TRRM CRER: Every member can read it for himself.] If it is put in such a form that it cannot be clearly understood by the House when read, it is the frllllt of the Treasurer or whatever 1\-linister is responsible for its being in that form. I do not blame th,- Clerk at all for its b,_,iug put in ;;;nch a forrn that it h,.n no 1neaninb. Ht;re i~ the way in which it was read by 1\L·. Bernays. ....-\fter rt tdin:_: the exernption (If 2,000 acres in ~ll\:a, hP went on "~iot, exceed­ing a totnl valne of t:20,00D," "Total value ex­ctwcling !:20,000 ·1nd not t"XCeedint:; £2:),000." [:ill'. Knm: YoLl ought to be ashamed of your­self to attack the Clerk of the, As-ernbly when llP cannot defend himself.l I am not attacking the Clerk at all; I am not blaming him. [Mr. KEHH: Yon did.] I 'ay the resolution has no meaning, mcd I want the Trc,,urer to tdl us its n1P'1ning. No one but the Tn_ tsurer knows what it mean". X obody in this house is capable of ming better English than the Cle1·k, and I atn not reflecting on hitn in any way ; but at this stage f~nrely the recepr.io!l of the resolution is something nwre than dun1b parade. It is impurt<:1nt th~t sun1e reason should be given why it ;;honld be edopted. No reason hat:i been given t:;o far, and Rurel~· we have not arrived at tlwt ;;tage when the law of force iH to Le rHsnrted tu, quite regardless of the merit~;; of a, qut:>tiou. I am not going to argue at tbi,~ stage. ThPre are rome Yery Important things I shall have to bring forward at a later Htage, but thiH is not the tilne to go into detaiL:;. \V e are di,;cu,;.,ing now whether we bhall ,dopt a resolution which contains very obnoxious -prin­ciple~-princlples which are highly obnoxious to the most intelligent, fair-minded, and honest portion of the community, and which are held by a great many people to be also diohoneot. It is due to the House that the T!'flasurer should give some explanation of the resolution, and how it is gojng to work. It is usual for a Tre'l.surer to reply to the criticism<. delivered in Committee by hon. members. There was plenty of time for the hon. gentleman to do that last night, but having failed to do so tlren, he should gi' e the information asked for now to this House and to the country. ·we shall fight this Bill all we know, but in a reasonable way ev•ory time, and, when we have put our Yiews as reaPonably and as fully as possible, we shall stop there.

:\Ir. FORSYTH ( Carpentaria): The whole of the arguments in Committee were practically directed to the c-1se of the large pastoral estates on the Darling Downs. I stated that this tax waN going to affect an industry in which there vvere no 1, rge eld>atc'3 in thP sensr of estates con­taining i\0,000 or 100,000 acre-,, I referred to the fact that the rc,solution would affect the sugar industry to a considerable extent. There are a good n1:tny sugar planLtions which contain a grPo,t deal more than 2,000 aPres of land, and those plantations will have to pay a stiff tax. I do not think, from the evidence which we got durim; the debate, that it was the int,.ntion of the G-~>verninent to tax the sugar p'?ople ; but, in bringing in their proprhals to deal with latge ll>t'toral pro pc; ties. they have worded the exemption in sncb a ''-'Y that it will mterfere with those su~ar-pLcnters. [The _l'REmER: Hadn't you bettce wait until yon oc.e the Bill?]

do not care t\\'0 strawJ for the Bill. I got the stuternent JJf ·i;he Treasurer that

all Ltnd exceeding 2~000 in area over a certain value \Yill be taxed. could n1ention half a dozen 1-'Ug..:,,r }Jhntations--rcnd I -·uppose there are a great rnany l11CH'L-th"tt ha Ye conf:.ider­ably ov·er 2,000 acres, am! of ·,-hid! the value is n1uch rnore than £2 10~. an acre. The con­sequence is that they will have to pay fl very stiff tax. Those lands are highly cultivated.

Mr. Forsyth,]

701 TVays ancl J1Ieans. ["tSSEMBLY.] TFa.ys ancl Jleans.

They are the mo,t in tens I] culti> ated lands in (luet:nsland. T'npy emp~oy t..n· rrwre Ltbour than ot.ht>r claBE't':A of farming, and at the same tinw this tax "ill not hf<Ye the effect of splitting up those et5tate:-<, fur the ::-;lruple rea.~on tbat, it tiH'Y werf' split. up, tbe1e \Vunld be nn c u~t-r St.-ttle­tnent. I waH talking to :.~ . .sug,lr-pl,tnu::>r to-day wlto h~ts 5,000 acre., and this tax will be a vety heavy charge upon him. [The THEASUl\ER: Are the whole 5,000acres uuder cultivation?] Seven· eigh~ohs are. It ir-> nw.st intensely cultivate 1 at present, and unless there is a fro~t t~1e crop this year is likely to yield !i,OOO or 8,000 tons of su~ar. NO\\, this land is supposed to be very valuable, and the tax which will fall on sugar esrateE; will be very severe indeed. 8urely it is 11ot intended to tax these people, because there was no reference made to the sug-ar industry by tlre other side of the House; it was all in C<mnection with the pa,tural in­dustry. [Mr. J. J,J<:AHY: rl'hey said it was a bursting-up tax. '!'bey will gain nothing by bursting up sug>u plantations.] No; nothing at all. Lb a matter of fact, one of the planta­tions I speak of, a few years ago, actually split up the land and .,old it to the people, but the men had tn a band on the country through the drought, which went out of cultivation, and it was not until irrig·ation works were erected by the company that the land was brought under cultivation again. :Everyone knows that the Colonial 8ugar Company has been selling bnd to the farmers for years; they have only been too delighted to sell it, and yet they hold land to an amount which will come under this tax. It is not benuse they do not want to sell land ; the~· have b ·en doing it for years ; and it will be a most unjust thin>: if this tax comes into openot.ion at <1ll. I do not think any of these estates are more thnn 5.000 acres, and the evident intention of the Government is to burRt up large pastoral estates, containing frorn liO,OOO to 100,000 acres of land. \Yhy ,houlcl they burst sugar estates up? ·what object would be gamecl? \Vould it; be the means of getting clo6er settbtnent? Nothing of the sort. [The THK1SLI!ER: It. will help tne co1mtry a good dc.,J.] If you hav<J land under culthation now, bec"'"'e you split it up into lGO or 200 acre blocb, will that induce closer cultivation? I£ it had not been for the fact that. some of the"e 1nen \Vtth ca1~ital n.nd conl-'iderctble are·1s went in for irrigation, a .<yreat deal of the la;.d woulcl not hn,ve bmm under ~sugar cultivation at all. 'fhere are irrigatinn work.s at PionPer, Fairytnead, and Bingera, and it is through the e.~pital these n1en inve_,tfd, anrl the deterltJiuation tu nmke a sncce'-; of the industry, that a large quantity of that lane] has been placed under clo8e cultivation. So that we are simply ilnposing- a tax on these people, anJ there l~ not the slighcest chance of bursting up these estates any ruore than they are now ; and the;:;e ~'eople will ]J,~ •• ve to pay through the nose, simply because the Governnwnt want:. to get at large pnstoralJ.ropertieR. I w..ts told that prior to one of the bil"{ pastoralist people purchasing land in June la::;t an agent repreKenting a eotnpany­the a.;ent's name and thnt of the company I gave to the Treasnrer-diotinctly asked the Premier whether there was any intention on the p"rt of the Government of Lringing in a land tax, and he aosures me--and he is prepared to confront the Premier if he likes-that the Premier said there was no intention whatever of the present Government bringing in a land tax. but a subse~uent Government might. [The 'l'REA· SURER : Quite true.] This land was purchased by these people upon that distinct promise. [The PREMIER : That is not so.] I am prepared to bring the gentleman up to confront the hon. gentleman. I gave the name of the agent and

[Mr.Forsyth.

the station to t.he Treasurer, who knows what I n1e~tn. This p~1rticular Rtatiou b,mgbt 4·1,00') acres of htnd, which the Government were eager and anxious for them to buy, as they wanted £22,000 to sqmH·e tlre finanCl·il at the end of th•· year. 'l'ht•y did not care a single ,,traw wh}1t lJrowis~s vvert- UlUdt~ ,-.,o long a:5 they got the 1nuney iu. But the prmui ,e~ were made, they got the nwney, ancl the l euvle are 8Uff~ ring now. Of course, if Lhe~e pe1}ple had 11ot. had any more fre bolrl, they would not htwe been taxed up to -!,000 acres, but they have 34,000 acre>, more; aucl I snppooe they will have to pay on the whole 78,000 acres, in spite of thB fact that the manager of the comvany before pur­chasing got a solemn assnmnce from the Premier that no such land tax would be intruduced. [}1r. LESIKA: The Premier had no right to make that promise.] If the hon. gentleman says he did not do so, all I can say is that the gentleman in q nestion has a::; good a. name for honour and repute as the Premier. If the hon. gentlermm wishes, I am prepared to bring the man up and beard him in his own den. \V e had" reply from the Secretary for Public Lands last night in con­nection with :Yir. Olivr r, who is supposed to have been told the same thing. He did not deny that, but simply said he did rwtremember having said so; and yet we are told outside that a distinct promise was made. If these things have taken place, it is a distinct breach of faith, especially coming from the leader of the House ; and I am re.tlly surprised it was done. I was told the other day thl1t there rs one large pastoral com­pany which will probably have to pay over £.5,000 in connection with this particular tax, and if you capitalise that amount on the basis of a twenty years' purchase, it will represent over £100,000. That is a "t'ry large arnount, and probably as llHWh a.s sotne of those t:•states are rnortgaged for. Any Ltnd over £110,000 hHs to pay a tax of 3d. in th<' £. I founu this tax h>..s been adopte<l frorn New Zealand, and thiR iti :nothi11g more nor­le" than a piebald abortion -something between the land tax of K ew Zt·.tlancl and the Betr.erment Bill. Even in N0w Zealancl, where they are supposed to be he .vily taxed up t•J .£110,000, I find the tax JS only l£d. over that amount, w bile be re they are going t<> charge 3d. in the £. I say there ;s no land tax iu Aus· tralia or anywhere else i11 the world with such an enonnous lax as 3d. in the £ ovet' £100,000. I think this resolution should be knocked out, but, of c mrse, there is no hopf. of doing that. If it was a fact that there was not an enonnous amouut of land, Lhen I could see smne sen.:-;e in bringing this forward, but we have got any amount of Crown land. \Ve have also got unr.old portiuns of Gowrie, Durundnr, and other estateE<, ::.ome of which iR perhaps not very suitable. It is quite evident that the demand is not so gre:tt as people rnade nut, but, even if it was, there are sca.rcely any of the owuer.:; of the.se larg c~ estates \vho have not been willing for years to >ell the land. One or t.wo were offered to the Governlllent not long af(o, which only ,bows that if the Governm"nt want bnd for agricultural purposes they can get it as they are doing no'", but they wish to get at these people. I shall oppose the resolution.

The PRE:\UER : The hem. member for Car­pentaria has referr0d to a matter but for which I would not have intervened in this debate, because I realise it is only fireworks. LMr. :B'oRSYTH: No fireworks.] [Mr. J. LEAHY : Of course it is. \Vhat dJtl you bring it in for, then?] Hon. gentlemen opposite thought they had an opportunity of taking a snatch division to-day, but they will probably find themselves mistaken. I have not the least intention of assisting the hon. gentleman in his benevolent intention

TVaps and Jfeans. [13 SEPTE:dBER.] Wa,ys and Zifeans. 705

towards this Dill. \Vbat I rose for was to say a word or two in referer1ee to the rnattd' which the bun. nlelnler fqr Oat pentaria has alluded to this afternoon, and which 1 uuder:;tand he alluded to in hi..; prPvious speech-tl.1<1t is, to a vromise which it is alleg-ed I made to somebody th>tt tllere would be no iaud tax. [Mr. :FoHSYTH : Before they !JUrchased the estate.] \V ill the hon. g-entleman keep quiet? He h<>s 1narle his :-:;tatenlent ; I atu guiug to give the rejoinder. He is very fond of using- strong­language ou ex pa1't(' Rt'i.ternents. The hon. n1ember offered to bring before Ill'-', or before the House, a person to confirm hiH Htaternent. ]1~ven if I had made the statement to the hon. mem­ber's frietld that there should be no land tax-if it was true that I made it-it would have been per­fectly justifiable. But, as a matter of fact, the hon. member refers to a mPrnber of the pa~toralist~' union in thi.:-; community~one of the pa.rty who have been raising an agitntion with the objeco of destroying this Bill, and are not very par­ticular about the means they will adopt to secure that end. [Government rnembers: Hear, hear.] [Mr. FonsYTH: You hav,e norig-httosay that.] [Mr. UA~IERON: That is not rig-ht; it is not worthy of you. J (Government laughter.) 'rhe hon. member '" the last man in the House who ought to rnake an interjection to challenge a stakrnent of th"tt kind. [Mr. J. LEAH¥: He is a man who supported you at the last g-eneral election, anyhow.] I do not know whether he did or not, but I know that the g-entleman whom the hon. membor for Brisbane North indicated to me last night is one of a number r.f p •.storalists' agents in this State who ha.\e cnn1bined fnr the purpose of 3ecuring the destruction of thi< Bill. [:\Ir. J. LE,\HY: Absolutely nntrne.] [i\lr. :FonsY'rH: No, no!]

The SPEAKER: Order, order!

The PRE:YIIER: It is not "No, no,'' but "Yes, ye~," bPcaue>e it is patent to everybody that th,tt i< the fact: and it i.s the most natural thing in the world that men whose interests are threatened by this or any oth.,•r measure th:ct comes before Parliament should enrleaveur to defeat that Dill and prevent it h'comin; law. I do not object in the least to their combining to secure the promotion of their interescs, but this is a position in which I recogni~;e that thdr interests are in conflict with the interests of the majority of the people in this community, and it is a case in which the i"tereots of the few must bo subordinated to the interests of the many. [Government members: Hear, hear!] \V hat is the charge made agair,st me by this gentleman? That he came to Irk to rliscuss the question of sale,, of land by auction. [,:I.Ir. FonsYrH: I did not say that.] If there is anything in the charge at all, tlutt h the gravamen of it~tha~ he carne to rne to disw CU'S the quesciun of w•lling land by auction. [Mr. l<'oRSYTH: He said distincth' before he bought the latH! he asked the question-that is what he said.] I am not profe,-sing to use the hon. IIE~lnber's words, or the word~ he attributes to the individual referred to-I am referring to the substance of the charge-that a gentle­man came to me to discuss the question of selling to his principals lnnd by auction, anrl that in reply to " statement which he made, the answer to which would have deJer­mined the course of action of his nrincipab, I assured him there would be no lanrl tax. As far as I can recollect, the gentleman never came to int.erview m•: on any occasion to discu~8 the sales of land by auction. [Mr. l<'OHSYTH: He said so most distinctly.] The hon. gentleman's friend got. no promiPe. [Mr. ,T_ LEAHY: Any ilingle man could say the same thing.]

The SPEAKER : Order, order !

1905-2x

The PRE,:I.IIER : He did not come to me to discus~ the lJUrcbat-ie of L1nd at auc~ion. [Mr. 'FOHSYTH: He asked you that qtle,tion.] Will

the h(Jn. gentlernau keep his peace [4.30 p.m.] until I have tini,;hed? [Hon. R.

PHILP: Why don't you my "Yes" or "No"?] [:Ur .. J. LEAHY: Why do you not say uYes ''or •• Nu." \Vhat are you ..;parring for ?j I will speak in my own time and in my own way. He canw tu rne on an entirely different rnatter. He carne to rne abont a sai8 of land under the Agricultural Lands Purchase Act. [Mr. J!'oitSY'rH: He told you}--

Tbe SPEAKER: Order, order!

The PREMIER: During the course of the discussion on that subject he mentioned the price his principah were prepared to take, which I was aware of, and he said they might be induced to take HOnl.ething less, indic..ttirJg to 1ne that they wanted the m""''Y by a r•artJCular day. I said it would be wiFe if they took less voluntarily, because it was quite ]Jc•s,;ible the Government might nsk the Home for power to deal with the.se estates in a different manner in fnture to that in which they had been dealt with in the past. [Mr. FonsFrH: He never said a word about that.] I quite believe that the gentleman never smrl a word >tbout that, but 1 am tellin!( the House what actually transpired, and I want the House to nnder.stand it; and I also want those per>ple who write those statements-th,,se half truths-in the Dailu JJfail to understand it, and that is why I am explaining the whole matter. [Mr. J!'OHSYTH: \V ill you meet him to-morrow ?J I said it would be a wise thing if his principals took a lower price than the price indicated, becauee the Government intended to arrn themselves, or were con­sidering the (lU8stion of nrrning thPnl~elves, with g-reater power than they ltad under the Agricultural Lands Purchase Act as it exists now. He said, 1

' You n1ean a land tax?'' and I said, ''No; l don't mean anything of the kind." [Hon. R. PHILP: Oh, oh!] The hon. member for Townsville may say "Oh, oh !" if he wishes, but I am stating what happened. \Vhat I was alluding to was the power contained in the closer settlement provisions of the Act of New South \Vales-tf;e power of compulsory purchaSE\ That is the power I was allr1ding to, and my colle1gues here can bear me out that I had already made inquiries in New South \Vales as to the operation of that pro­vision with the view pf hnving it illCfirporated in the legislation of this State. [Mr. J<'oBSYTH: He says quite differently tr, that.] Of course the hon. gentleman tells quitr, a different st0ry in this Chamber. This gentlem,;n is hand and g-love with the h•'n. member and his colleagues here, and his associates in the pastoral industry, and is trying to howl down this Bill. [Nir. CAMEHQN: I do not speak untruths, anyway.]

The SPEAKER: Order, order !

The PREMIER: I do not say the hon. gen­tleman does S]'eak untruths, but I suspect th"t sometimes he speaks half truths. [Mr. 0 ·,MERON: No ; I am not given that way either.] Thi.s state­ment is half a truth, and it is made with the object of inducing 1nembers of this Honse to believe that this individual carne to rnP. and aHkPd me a plain question relative to the lond sales by au0tion, and I gave hin1 a 111isleading reply. Th:,t statement is wanting entirelv in any foun­dation in trnth. \Vhat I tell the House is what transpired between myself and the gentleman who inteniewed me on that subject. \Vhat I have stated is the question he asked me, and that is the answer I gave him; and those were the facts, as I repeated them. The matter requires no further explanation, except in the

Hon . .A.Morgan.]

70G Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

eyes of members opposite, who want to make illegitimate me of an incident which is capable of the simple explanation I have given to mem­bers of this House. [:\Ir. ,J. LEAHY: You never answered it,] rH on. R. PHILP: You never said "Ye:-;"or"No.''j

(2uestion-That the resolution be agmed to­put; and the Home divided:-

::Oir. Airny ,, Ba.rller

B::trtou ., Blair

Bowman , Bridges ,, Bnrro,vs

Cowap " Dibley ,, Fudge ,, Grayson

Hamilton , , Hargrea Yes ,, Jackson ., .Tones ,, Kerr

Arr:.-;, 31. J.Ir. 1\:idston

I.~ and Le ina )I ann

, ..\1anghan , 3Iitcllell , J.Iorgan , }fnrphy , O'Keeffe ,, Payne

Scott Smart Tolmie Turner \Voods

Tellers: ::.\lr. Jlurphy and 1Ir. Burrows.

lUr. Barnes , Cameron

Cribb

:: ~~~~:~·~~fl l'ox

,, J enkinson

Kor:s, 13. ::ur. J. Leahy , l\facartncy , Paget

Petrie " l'hilp

Stodart

Tellets: :1.Ir. ltorsytll and 31T. Cmneron. Resolved in the affirmative. The TREASUHER moved that a Bill be

brought in founded on this resolution. Question put and passed.

LAND :MONOPOLY TAX BILL. Fms·r READING,

On the mution of the TREASURER, the Bill was introduced, and read a first time. The second reading was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

BILLS OF EXCHANGE ACT AMEND­::\IENT BILL.

J<'IRST HEADIXG,

On the motion of the ATTORNEY-GEN:E­RAL (Hon. J. W. Blair, Ips1vich), this Bill, received from the Council, was read a first time, and the second reading made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

SUPPLY. REsUMPTION oF Cm]j)IIT'l'EE.

HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR.

Tlw PRE::\IIER moved that £1,132 be granted for salaries and contingencies in conneclion with "Hi..; _Excellencv the <3-overnor." There was a reduction uf .£175 as compared with the amount voted last se~sion, which was due to legislation passed last year reducing the expenditure in connEction with the vice-regal establishment. He uncler.otrv)Ll that His Excellency Lord Chelmsford, the new Governor, would leave England next month, and arrive here at the end of Nove1nber or tbe beginning of Decen1ber.

Iv:lr. LE SIN A: The pasmge ,,f legislation last sesiliun had resulted in a decrease in the total vote for the vice-regal establishment, and that le"islaliou was hailed with acclamation by the co';:mtry generally. But the vice-regal establiRh­ment was still beyond the requirements of a small State like Queensland. Now that we had

[Hon. A. M organ.

federation provincial governorships were an im­pertinence, as they were not f·-.sential, and he hoped that before many years were pa,sed the country would demand the abolition of the office, a" the functions of the Governor could be effi­ciently discharged by the Chief J u"tice, as they had been by Sir Hugh Nelson. He sh0uld never be scttisfied until he saw this vote wiped out altogether.

Question put and passed.

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL.

The PR}~NIIEH moverl that £250 be granted for '"alaries and contingencies, "l;~xecutive Coun­cil." The c>mount was the same as was voted last year. This department was now costing very much less than it cost in former years.

Question put and passed.

LEGISiu\1'IVB COUNCIL.

The PREJI.IIEH moved that .£940 be granted for salarir" and contingencitt:, '' Legislative Council." The amount was the same as was \'oted last year.

Mr. J\IAUGHAN agreed with the hon. mem­ber for Olerrnont that the time was not far distant, if it had not already arrived, when they should do away with the 8tate Governor; and he thought the time had long ago arrived when they could do without tbe Upper Hou,e. One of the most popular planks in the Labour party's platform was "The abolition of the Legislative Council," and it was no use members of the party advocating their planks on the hustmgs if they broke them in the House. He hoped that an opportunity would be given the House before very long to take a vote on the question. So strongly did he feel on the subject that if the leader of tbe party called for a division on this vote he should vote against it, becaust· there was very little chance of obtaining vractical reform so long as the Council was constituted as it was at present.

(~uestion put and passed.

LEGISLATIVE ASSE;\JBLY.

The PREMIER moved that .£2,029 be granted for salarieR and contingencies, " Legislative As­sembly." The amount was the same as was voted last year,

Question put and passed.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL AND LEGISLATIVE ASSEoiBLY,

The PREMIER moved that £6,716 be granted for salaries and contingencieR, '' I_Jegislative Council and Legislative Assembly." 'fhere was a decrease of £75 in this vote. The amount for messengers was increased by .£10. The total vote for the reporting staff was £175 less than bst year, hut one sessional 'horthand writer was clown at .£25 less tban be was to receive, and the vote would have to he supplemented by that amount. The mech2nic at~ending to the electric ligbt received .£-10 a year less than his prede­cessor. and there w.>s a decrease of .£20 in the item ,-, Coal, repairs, etc."

Mr. LESIXA ob;erved that a saving· had been effected by reducing the salary of the mechanic from .£170 to £130, and by a reduction in the amount for coal and repairs. The late Gov~rn­ment economi.~ed by reducing the salaries of those at the bottnm of the tree, and leaving alone those at the top of the tree. \Vhy should they per"ist in thi.; i'olicy of greasing thA fat sow, and constantly cutting clown the salary of a messenger, or of a woman who washed the stairway and pa~sages? \Vhy should they allow the fat hogs at the top of the public service to go

Supply. [13 SEPTEMBER.] Suppl,y. 707

8cot~free when reductions \Vere made? That wae what the late Government did, and the preDent Governrnent were following precisely the same practice. He protested strongly ngainst thh way of securing surpluses ;;bout which they could "skite" on public p!atforwc;.

The PRE:\HER: The hon. member was not correct in his information. There was no cutting down of the s1elary of a low paid officer. The fact was that there had been a change in the occupancy of the offi~e during the past year, and the Government had nothinc: whatDver to do with the appointment, excei't t•J provide the money. J;Ir. Priest resigned the position, and applications were invited for the office. He believed there were a great number of applica­tions for the position, and the n1an now in office wa" appointed at a remuneration of £130 a year being well aware at the time of the rmture of th~ work he had to do.

:1\Ir .• T. LE A.HY did not know what ground tbe bon. member for Clermont had for taking up

such a position, seeing that on n1ore [5 p.m.] than 011e occ:tsion recently bis leader

had complained about the expendi­.. oure on public work.< in Bri3bane, and objected to findin;; \Vol'k for 1nechanics.

Mr. TURXKE aBked how much of the vote for the refreshment-rooms w<mt to the caterer, and how much for attendance?

The PREJ'v[[ER : The report of the joint cornmit.tee for the man~\gen1{~llt of the refresh­ment-rooms had been laid on the table at the beginning of the ses,ion, and the hon. member would find full information upon all pointR in that report. During the past Y' ar the amount ~xperded by the committee Wa< £735. Of that umonnt the manager received £165 lls. 8d., the secretary £27 10s., the billiard-marker £43 15s. [Hon. R. PHI LP: There is no billiard-marker now.] He was spee~king of last year. \V ages of servants came to £4K9 !Js. 5d., and incidentals £8 14s. That w:cs rather more than was r,sked for this year, hut the committee hoped to be able to still further economise. Last year they had an amount brought forward from the previous year which assisted them materially to reduce the vote last year. The strictest economy had been ohs ,rved. \Vitbout it, it would have been impoosible to carry on without a further appoal to the Treasurer. 'rhe expenditure had shown a steady decreas" ever since HJOO. In 1900-1 it amounted to £1,048; in 1901·2, to £991; in 1902-3, to £8(i9 ; in 1903-4, to £R50 ; and last ye er, to £73~. 'l'his year they were asking for ,£(r10 only. The expenditure on gas for 1D02-3 was £315; in J\103-4, £29:-i; r1nd l:tst year, '?263. All tbe items sl>c,wed th •t the joint committee were endeavouring to beJp the general policy of economy, and he hoped they would coettinue to do so.

Mr. TURX~ER was satisfied with the Premier's explanation. He had not read the report, and, when he s:1w the ·i-1~stim:tte·.; that the vote wa.:; increa;;o.ed frnrr1 to £t)J0, he ,, ished to kno\v \Vhether an itwre":L.--:tJ ealary \VL.s guing to be paid to thP mD.n::~ger.

l:fox. _R. J!1-Ll_I_JP asked 'vhetbcr the J~stinwtes '\Vel'b ~ho.-4.: l·ml_;nJitLr::d l)y Srwakt::l' Presi-dent'! l,l{}~}n Ell: ; ·wich f'XC~D-tion I indicat:-d. £2;) w<1s tr.ken off the an1cunt :,et do\.'U for mv-'- of the Jf:'c-!-;ionnlreporters -ln en or, ~nd \vj]l h.,\ ve to h-~ provid d for. Or.!-lflr\vise the :'re the ]~stilna.tes of the Speaker and

J\Ir. li'Ol~SYTH: The Auditor-General re­ported tha~ £700 had been expended on the

refreshment-rooms, whibt the Premier had stated that the amount was £73~. How was it that there was a discrepancy between the two?

The PRE~HER had not the Auditor-Gene­rai'>l report by him, and he could only imagine that it was explainable by the fact that the com­mittee paid some accounts after the end of the financial year. He had given the House the figures as supplied to him by the secretary to the cornrnittee, and which were contained in the report presented to both Houses.

Mr. CO\VAP wanted to know whether there was any profit from the bar, and, if there was, who got it? (Laughter.)

The PRE:YII:ER: The manager, who had charge of the bar, bought and sold the liquor, and any profits resulting from the sale-and he should think they were not large-were enjoyed by the manager.

Mr. BURROWS did not think there was any occasion for hon. rnemhers opposite to laugh and jeor when an hon. member asked a question regarding the refre,.hment-rooms. He had been in the House for some years, and it was only recently that he thought he knew anything about the matter, and he did not know whether he had a thorough grasp of it yet. He thought they should reorgaujse the refresh1nent-room::; on an entirely different basis. He hatl nothing to say against the present caterer, who, be believed, did his work well. He thought that the present system was not fair by which the CJterer might be calkd upon to provide for a large number of mmnberFt without vrevious notific~ttion, inasmuch as it might involve him in serious lo". At the san1e time, the romns n1ight be more econoxnically managed. 'rhe disadvantages me m berR laboured under was that many people outside were under the im presoion that member8 were prodded with free meals, free drink', and free cigars. That was a big mistake. As it was now, the caterer got £200 a year; he got a house, and a.ll the attendants were paid for by Parliament ; while, if there was any profit the caterer got it. If half a dozen members desired it they could arrange with son1e caterer in town, ring him up an hour before tea, and he could send tea up to them. That might not be very nice, but if the catering were let to some individual, even if some revenue were not derived from it, it would not cost the country anything. He thought they could be supplied with refreshments equally as good as they got now-he aH not saying anything against the caterer-and it would cost menchers no more than it did now, and would cost the country absolutely nothing·.

Mr. LESINA: Hon. members should not for­get that Yoting this money was the deliberate action of the HnuRe itself, and the House a,ppointed a comin1ttee to ~ee the 1noney waR expenclFd to the best possible advant <.;e. If hon. rnelnbers objectecl. to this e.~peuditnre on the refreslnnent and billiard which re­freshmE->nG wa;-:; often rt.quired a,t 2 or o'clock in the- 1nornin·, whon a rn~tn waR (',JD11-~'l1ed to fight an unpnpular 1neasure, thP simplt -,t way wa'' to

the itern out the E:-;~irlla.tes alr.ogether. t tbetn clo.se np d ining~I" ;orn a.nd. '":i.siturs'-

and abolish the billiard-tal>le, "nrl he con-and thorough, and he would go all th0

\;ray 1-vith any hon. \Vhn had the n1oral courage to F0'1SYTH : rro~ pose it 1-ie was nn+:. going tu do that, h Jcause he~ the'e hcilities should be furnished to hon. rrtPn1bers, n.nd he wa~ quite satisfied that the committee appointed to look aftc e these things wuulcl clo the for the members and the public generally. were

Mr. Lesina_]

708 Suppl,y. [ASSE:;}1BLY.] Suppl;y.

a good many misconceptions in the popular mind a" to many of the institutionF connected witf.J Parliament House. There w"s an idea that members of Parliament were pmctica!ly supported at the public exJJense in every matter, that they got free clrinks, free lunche.,, and free sleeping accommodation, hut that was due to the ignorance of the public. 1fembers of Parliament got nothing free whatever, except the reports placed in their hands for study and to be of use to the taxpayers. ,T udging from the way some people talker], it would appear that the prominent characteristics of Parliament were late ·hours and drunkenness; but if a return was made, it would be shown, as it was shown in the Federal Parliament when the matter came up for discussion there, that the average amount spent in drink per week by each member drd not amount to much more than 6cl. per heo,d, taking both Houses into account, and there were considerably over 100 members. The specu­lation was purely Mr. Baldwin'v, whether it resulted in profit or lose. Very often a thunder­storm came on just before tea, and thirty or forty members would require tea, and, unless Mr. Baldwia had made preparations, it would be impossible for them to get a meal ; then, the Hou;e might adjourn at fifteen minutes to G, and there might only be one or two members wanting tea. They should either wipe the whole vote out, or else leave things untouched. Some hon. member ought to move the abolition of the whole vote, and put the thing to the test.

Mr. HAWTHORN (Enoggera): After looking through the report of the committee, he did

not see how that refreshment-room [5.30 p.m.] could be run under a smaller

amount than that put down nn the Estimates. The public were under the im­pression that members got everything free at the refreshment-room, and that the money voted by P.wliament was to pay for the liquor. That was altoge:her 'vrong. He thought the present mode of rnnning that institution, under the charge of a manager and keeping it under their own control, was rr,uch more satisfactory than any other system. (He•1r, hear!) Personally, he would be sorry to see the refreshment-room done away with. Members gave their tilne in attending at the House, and they should get a little assistance of this kind.

Question put and passed.

CHIEF SECRETAm:'H DEPAH'l'1IENT~CHilll!" OFFICE.

ThePREMTERmoved that £3,300hevoted for the "Chief Office"~Chief Secretary's Depart­ment. There wae a dbcrease of £HO as compctred with the amount voted last year. There were two increa•es~£10 for a messenger and £10 for a tvpist. [Hon. R. PHTLP : You red need them last year.] The practice in the departments was that typists and shorthand writers harl to undergo an examination, and they wer, graded acC(Jrding to the rH;ults. [Hon. J:-l.. PHlLP: Before the examination w,,~ 1uade your Public Service Inquiry Board recommended decnas,s.] Since the hon. gentleman had raised the ques­tion, he n1ight say that it \Va~ a.b.·wlutely neces­sary, in the interests of the taxpayer, that the salaries of thetypistsshnnld he reviewed. One was getting £3 a week. [Hon. E. B. :FoRREHT: Are they all pair! alike now?] No; according to their skill and ability as disclosed by examim1tion. The decreas' s totalled £130~a sa ·:ing of £00 in the salary of a typist who resigned, £!GO in miscellaneous expenses, and £200 in railway fares a,nd freights. Allowing for the increaees of £20, the total decrease was £410.

[ .il1 r. Lesina.

HoN. R. PHILP: On the report of the Public· Service lnqniry Board last year the Government reduced some uf the.,e typists from £80 to £70, and no ment10n wa~ n1ade then about an examinaR tion. 'fhis year they were told it was by examination. \Vhich was correct~the repmt of tbe board, or the statement of the Chief Secre­tary?

The PREMIER: The examination of the shorthand writers anr! typists was conducted by one of the ot!icers in the HanHard gallery, and that examination preceded the Public Service Board inquiry. An endeavour was made to ghe a fair salary for the work they were called upon to perform. The salaries now paid tu the short­hand writers were, on the average, considerably above 1lhe salaries paid outside. As a rule, the Government departments ought to pay higher salaries than were paid outside, in order to ensure getting the best officers generally.

Mr. :FORSYTH asked for an explanation of the amount of £424 9s. under the heading of '"Unforeseen Expenditure" in the Chief Secre­tary's Department.

The PREMIER : That was the total cost of the Yisit to QLieensland made by the members of the Federal Parliament this year. An invita­tion was sent tbrough the Prime Minister, Mr. Reid, to federal members to visit the State, and he (the Premier) w"s only sorry that n::ore members of both of the Federal Houses did not see their way to accept the invitation. Un­fortunately, none of the Federal :Ministers were able to accompany the party. However, the members wbn did come were thoroughly repre­sentative of all s0ctions of the :Federal Parlia­ment, and he thought it was a good investment for Queen,]and to g·et them tu come. (Hear, hear!) [:\ir. HAWTHORX: It resulted in the extension of the sugar bonus.] .Members of Parliament who were making the laws for the whole of the States ought to he well informed as to the conditions prevailing in each State. He was justified in sa) ing that rnn,n:· of the rnern~ bers who came from tbe southern States were very much surprbed at what they saw, and the visit could not fail to be of o.d vant>tg ,' to the State. The trip was conducted withrmt niggardli­ness and without extravagance. [Hon. E. B. :B'01nmsT: It ought to have been made years ago.]

Mr. J\IACAR'l':NEY asked if the members of the Queensland Parliarneut who accompanied the federal party paid their own expenses or not?

The PHEJ\IIER: He was not aware of any ~tnte rnetnb~r acoon1panying the federal party. The only members whose expen,,es were paid were federal member,. ~.\.t the instance of the then Prime Minister, Mr. Reid, he did ,.end an invitation to the Lord .M.ayors of tlydney and :Melbourne. but neither of them was able \o come. He refused to allow anyone to accomnany the federal party except on the condition that they paid their owH expenses. \Vith the ~xception of two r.presentatives from this Shte, the only person who ac~mnpanied the party was the son of one of the Queensland federai members, and his expenses were p ,id by his Ltther. [An honourable member : And one of the feclt·ral members was accnnpanied by his wife.] Yes, he had forgotten that.

HoN. R PHILP agreed with the I'remier that the inn~'jtment was a good one for the St.1t:. Son1e three years ago he sent a similar invitation to Sir \Villiam Lyne for the federal members to 'isit this State, bnt, unfortunately, they did not come. It would have been much

Supply. [13 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 709

better"if thev had come before the recent federal legis] ation ,.;as passed. He would like to know how much of the £1, 4GO was spent last year?

The PREMIER: .Just under £1,000. Mr. TURNER: He harl accompanied the

members of the federal party on their tour, and paid his own expense.". He was sorry that more members of the State Parliament did not see their way to accompany the federal members, as they would have been well repaid by the visit. He thought the members of the (lueembnd Pr.rliament should visit the Northern portion of the State and also the other States much more than they did.

Mr. PAGl~T thought the Premier did an exceedingly wise thi•ig-especially for North Queen,;land-in inviting the federal members to come here. He would have had very much plea,;ure in accompanying the party himself ; but he thought it would be'' iser to leave the educa­tion of the federal visitors to the people who were growing ca11e in the variouR dit>~riets, with­out any interference from members of the State Parliament. He did not think that any man who thought seriously about the question would say other than that it was necessary for members of the Federal Parliament to make then,selves fulh acquaint<'cl. with the interests of the State, nwr:'e e~.Jpecially 111 view of the led::Jation which hau been passed, and he firmly believed that the effec-t of their trip v: "'s the extension of the bonu<, which neCP."''mry to carry the suga,r industi'y o\·er the transition stage.

Mr. MAKK thought that this money which was ~Iwnt in bringing the feder,-l n1emhers to Q•1ecnsland \:as well spent, if it had had no other effect than that of exploding the old Torv lie that white men could not work in the canefields. He accmn pa,nied the party in their tour through his district, and introduced them to kanakas engaged on sugar plantations. He allowed the ]\lulgrave Central Sngar :\Iill authorities and the Colonial Sugar lletining Company to put their case before the members, and he put the case for the white growere. EvBn that great exponent of black labour, Mr. A. ,J. Draper, backed down from his former position, and said \\hite rnen could do the work. The majority of the mem­bers of the party were Labuur rnembers; he was sorry that more rnetnbers did not con1e up, though he belieYed that ::VIr. Reid would have been-more respected in (-lueensland if he had not come here at all. A. man who made the state­ment that he would Pooner see 1::-•ndicoots than blackfcllows in the canefields was not worth considering. It would have been better if Mr. Reid had visited the plantations than to come here later on for the purpose of attacking socialism. Ho~. E. B. FORREBT : The hon. member

for Cn,irns had spoken, n,nd he had settled the question of black labour. \V ere there no nigge!s at Cairns now? \Vas all the sugar produced m that dibtrict gro\\n by white labour? [Mr. MAN~: No; there are plenty of niggers there.] The Federal Parliament did not pr.Jpose"' long enough extension of the bonus, and they had made no effort, as they should have done, to provide labour to take the place of the kanakas when they left. The sngar men in the North had g_ot no labour, and they had no hope of gettmg 1t. [2\Ir. \Voons: Any amount of it.] There was not any amount of it. How mnch sugar had been grown in the Cairns district by white labour? X ot more than from 2 to 4 per cent. The planters w.mted the bonus extended, but what they particularly wanted was labour. He denied the statement that there was plenty of labour there. There were loafers there, and they would not work. He had not heard that

Mr. Draper had changed his views on. black labour and should like to have some evidence on tha~ point before accepting such a statement. At all events, it was all bunkum to talk about encouragement not being given to labour tu go to the ·K orth. It never had been there, and there did not appear to be very much prospect of ito going there to do the work on sugar plantations.

::\Ir. J. LEAHY did not think this was the proper time to discuss the questi~n of black labour, and did not intend to de~] w1th the m%t­ter. In his opinion, the expenditure m connec­tion with the visit of the federal members was wise expenditure. The Government had done too little of that kind of buoiness. Apart from the question of hospitality, the expenditure on which must be regulated by the amount of money at the disposal of the Government, the~e was a business aspect to such a matter, and ·~ some­times paid handsomely to be generous m such matters. If some members of the Assembly had accompanied the party, that would have been a verv proper thing to do, and it would have been better for the Premier to invite three or f<~ur members from each side of th<' House to go w1th them than to allow the vi,itors to c:o ab~mt. the country by themselves. \Vben a pe:son l'!Vltt;d a man to dinner, he usually entertamed h1m ~n smne way afterward.':l, and ... that '':a~ the way_ 1n which they should treat State ,-1s1tors. \V 1th regard to the statement of the hon. member for Cairns that he had introchwed the federal party to the kanaka", he would point out that a man generally introduced people to his most intimate friends. It was very good of the hon. member fur Cairns to introduce the federal members to his most intimate friends. ·while he approved of the expenditure on this trip,_ he did not say that it should be repeated period1c1lly, though 1f sorne new q ne;;:;tinn nf inqJOrtance a_ro;:;: lH a yPar or two, it might be desirable to mv1te federal members a::>;ain to visit Queensland.

Mr. HA \VTHORN : Any discussion of white or black labonr was absolutely useless, as they could not settle the que.,tion. He believed that the recent trip of the federal members had a decided educati '<'e influence on the minds of ma_ny members of the party, as they came here with no knowledge of the conditions of the. ,,ngar industry, some of them prejudicedagainst Jt, and others vvith wrong ideas concern.1ng 1t,. a!! cl he considered that they went back w1th the1r. Ideas grecttly changed. The res~lt was seen m the speeches they h~d made w1th refere'.'ce to the renewal of the bonus for another fi v~ years. Personally, he should like to have seen 1~ made ten year><. The £,100 spent on the tr1p was money well invested.

Mr. \V CODS wished to reply to the statement of the hon. member for Brisbane North,_ that white labour in North '-lneen.;land was unrehable. The hnn. member said they were loafers. [Hon. E. B. FORHEST: I did not. I said there are a Jot of loafers there; and you know there are.] He was going to point out where t.hoRe loafers came from. The manager of the 1\Iosman mill kicked out sixteen of them the other day, and they c"me back to the hon. member's electorate, from where they had gone North. [Hon. E. B. J<'oRREST: \Vho sent them up?] They w~re ~ent up by the Labnnr Bureau, prnhablv at th~ mstJ~a: tion of the hon. member. [Hon. E. B. 1< OllRER_T. Ko ·blame the Government.] So far as the whlte me~ in the sugar districts of K orth ~u.emsland were concerned, they were as tine a body of rn~m as could be found anywhere m Austrah~. [Government members : Hear, hem!]

:\Ir. 1\IITCHELL: He joined the federal party at 1\Iaryborough and accompanied them

Mr. J.1fitchell.J

710 Supply. [ASSEJYIBLY.] Supp1y.

through the Cbilders district, and he made it his businecstofind out their opinions. One of them

informed him that it was certainly [7 p.m.] an eye-opener, and another said it

wns perfectly a tonishing-that in Victoria and Tasmania they had not thn slightest conception of the large area>; of land that were under sugar-cane, which they had seen even in the short di.stanu· they had journeyed throngh Queensbnd. They went to the various mills, and, whatever might be said nbout the Colonial Sugar Itefining Cnrnpany, he could say that they kept nothing back-they showed the visitors everything about their mills and in the fields. Tho.r:;e rnen said it was tlJe most profitable specu­lation the (~neensland Government harl ever made, becauH·, when they went bar.:k to ~1el­bourne, they could speak upon the question of the sug.tr bonns in a way that they could not have done if they had merely gone through statistics and jmpers. They had seen the cane gro·,\Tin~, and ~ ere awtre of the neee~."ity for continuing the bom1s for a number of years for the purpose o± assisting farmers to get while labour. 'l'here bad been a little crosbfiring during the course of the de-bate about black labour and white lab.,ur; but he thought that the Government and the people of (:lueemland were doing everything they could to make pro­vision for a supply of white labonr to take the place of black labonr, which woul<l shortly be done av,ay with. He thought there would be sufficient white labour a\,dlable when it was required. Most of the federal party with whom he spoke were satisfied that the bonus should be continued for a number of vears. There was a considerable meed of praise 'clue to Mr. Fisher, the federal representative, for the manner in which he had laid out the time at the disposal of the party to enable them to cover as much ground as po•sible.

Hox. R. l'HILP had not raised the quegtion of white labour; but, as the hon. member for Maryborough said that the Government had taken steps to replace black labour with white, he would like to know from the Premier what steps he had taken, and whether he was satisfied that there was plenty of white labour in Queens­land or in Australia to take the place of the kanakas when they had to go.

The CHAIRJ\IAN : I think the leader of the Opposit.ion is opening up quite new ground, which does not come within the scope of this vote. 'The discussion has been, perhaps, a little irregular, as the visit of the federal members would come up more properly on the Supple­lnentary l~stimateR.

The PHEMIER agreed with the Chairman. The discussion was a little out of phce on this particular VL>te. [Hon. R. PHTLP: ·which vote do you want to discuss it on'!] He was not anxious to dhcuss it un any partjcular vote, but he thought it would ill'Jl'e properly come on on the vote for ilnrni;= . .J~~tion. The di:Jcn::;;..-;]on had arisen ont of the p~rfr'ctly legitimate inquiry of the h•,.:n. rnember for Carp€ntarb with refer* enca to the visit of the fedural member,.

1\lr. F011SYT'H .cgreed with the Premier that the di: .. cns8ion \Vas so1newhat irreguiar, but he thought it wise to get an expres"~ion of opinion fron1 the hon. gentleman with regard tn the federal trip. The discussion shJuld do a lot of good, as it would show tbnt hon. rn~mhers uf the Committee were entirely in favour of the action of the hq,n. gentleman. They were nll sati,fiecl that the re "ults that "ere likelv to accrue from the visit morA than compensc,£ed for the small expenditure of £424. The visit of federal mem­bers, and the oppnrtunity :dl'orded them of seeing the country, would be of great ultimate good to Queemland.

[Mr. M itchell.

Ho:s-. R. PHILP: It was not a question ot white labour or black labour at all, because the Con1rnittee was not cornpetent tn dism1bB that question now. They were discus<ing the first vote in the Chief Secretary's E-<timates, and the hem. gentle1nan conld answf>r the que~tinn in t\YO

Ininutes. He noticed that one of hi~: l\linister.'~, talking tbe other clay, said thet decidedly there was not sufficient white labour in Queensland at the pree,·nt tinw to cwry on the sugar industry, If that was the opinion of the Ul)verrnnent, it was fa1r to ask what Hteps tlwy had t.tken, or intended to take, to provide :-:.nhlcicncy of white bbour for the indnotry. all knew that the lmn"l"' was goiDg-. y;, en if Fede? :t! GoYernment cl cided to,ncorro .: to allow the kanakas to rernain for another five y :ar~, they would not etop. lt ,,-as therefore; the duty of the G-nvern1nent of (~ncenslan(l to take stelJS to find suitable white labour to take their place.

The PREMIE l~ : N J representntions had been rna.de to the Gov2rn1nent by any re~pon~ sible person or Lody of persons on behalf of thm;e engag·ed in the sugar indn·~try uprJYl this n1atter. \Vhen ~mch represent:ttions were n1a,de the GDvernnlent would be peeparcd to ta,ke such action as se··rned fit; but it had not been proved that there was not suft'cient white labour Queensland to ~arry on the industry. [Hon. PHILP: The Secretary for .L-1\gricultnre Fa~,::; there iR not.] 'fhe :Secretary for Ag-riculture ked not exnr,,,,,sed views in conflict with thnse he (Mr. Morg,tn) held. [Hon. R. PHILP: Arc you sati;;­fied there i' plenty of white labour here?] He was not sati,fiecl, and he had not expre- ;eel an opinion to th,,_t effect.

1\rr. ,J. LI£AHY: It did not follow that there would require to be any immigration at all to provide sufficient labour for the sugar industry, as there might 1·3 sufficient men unemployed in the 8nnthern portion of C<iueensland who could be transferred to the sugar districts where labour was required. :U'or years past it had been cus­tomary to allow a general discussion upon the first vote nf a department, anrl he thought it was proper that they should follow that course on the pre-sent occasion. There• was a great diversity_ of opinion a,; to whether a sufficient supply of wh1te labour was available to take the place of the coloured labour at present employed. At all events, they knew that the outlook for the in­dustry was fraught with danger :tncl clissntisfac­tion; .tnd, if the Govprnment had any policy, the Premier might inform them what it was. 'I'here was a hlxge nnn1ber of unemployed in Queen.:;­lancl, and if they could be taken td where there was plenty r~f vvork for then1, Jt ·would bP a gc:Jt national ad\--tDtHge. The prodncing po\ver of the State would be incnased, and thP- Treasury relieved of a grea.t drain upon it. l£H~ry rnan whfl was not employed was cerbinly a ]m,-- to tht' StatP, anrl the country, as well as hon. n1e1uber~ of thnt OonHnittee, would he to herrt' a pronnuucenlellt fr, m th8 lJon. Pr8mier upon the ::;ubj~ct. The Cabinet rnL'ht nu': be agree l upon the nd it was evident they wnre not. Secrettry £or Agricul-tr:.re b ·td over the country that there be a of labour f,.r t 1:e

cend th t steps would t<; be labour of Rorne kind. hon. ,:,entle~

m .n rnust have be. '11 :;peaking \V hen l\linisters wnre n t ~:how~ such p1ac·:~s the:~ ,vere ,npposed touch on quP:->-tion~ of policy. They represented the niinil3try on thanA occasion8, and it vvas the tirne, when thesv E.·~tlm<ites ·were before Cmu-n1ittee, to critici:;e those speechr~, as they bad all a right to know what these thini_ meant. If the Premier sairl :he policy of the Govprnment \Vas not rnatured on this n1atter, that would b;_,

Supply. [13 SEPTEMBER.] Suppiy. 711

an answer to the question ; but if the Govern· ment had any prepared scheme, he thought this was the time to get some indication of it from the Premier.

The PHEMTER: The hon. gentleman was not troubled ab"ut the labour rlifficulty in this n1atter; he was n1ore concerned about s'1o\ving that there was a little difference between the Secretary for Agriculture and himself (the Premier). Bnt there "a' no difference of opinion. He h;1d replied a moment ago to the hon. mrmber for Townsville th>lt he had had no inthnation from any responRible person or bor1y of per ,ons speaking on behalf of the sugar in­dustry, LIHlivtting tha~ labour was requirt-d, and he might supplemt ut that by s~yinp; tha,t tiJP Trea.<.;nrer, in anticipg,tion of the opHning of the sugar sea.,on, cmnmnnicatecl with rnills in various parts of the State as to Lheir bbonr require­ments, and the respon::9s \vere not gratifying to 1\linisters who \Vanted to place 1nen out of ern­ployn1ent, ::tnd did not ju~tify the cnHclusion that there was any scarcity of labour for the induetry. lf it should be proved that in any particular 'n';ar district of the Stat· labour was rPquired, theu if laL:)llr wa,; a.vaiJabJe in any other part of the State thev woul<l not hesitate to afford th~ utmcmt facilities for it;; transfer to the sugar districts. They wuuld con­sider it part of their duty. The iwn. member knew as well as any rrember of the Committee that the present period was a period of tmnsition in the wgar industry. 'l'he Federal Parliament in its wisdom had decreed that the Polynesians must be returned to their homes, and there was some uncertainty not only on account of labour, but also about the bonus. He hoped the latter subject would be settled very shortly, in a way which would justify the hopes entertained of the future of the sugar industry. \Vhen the ko.naka had disappeared the labour question would become more acute, and if the availahle 'labour in our own and the other States was not sufficient to meet requirements, then-but not until then-would arise the question as to whether it was desirable to direct the attention of the Government to the introduction of a class of European labour suitable for the in­dustry. If it should be found that the labour in the various Shtes was not sufficient. and the only alternative to the introduction of labour from Europe was the collapse of the sugar industry in this State, then it would be the duty of the Governn1ent to assist in th~t intro­duction. [:\fr. KEOUH: L'>W cla,s Enrupeans "!] Not necessarily ],,;v claos Europeans ; they might be of a class as lngh as the ttverage of members Df th<tt Chamber. He had in his min,J a eh's of Europeans who could not be described as a low eLls•, and the hon. member was suwcely justified in using that expre~'3ion. They rnight get 1nen from the old country and the continent of }~nrnpe, who miglit · our requirP,n1cnt for the time and ultimate!:. Jme voJnalJle arldi-tjons to Pnr populati(Jfl; fir~~. e1nployee~, and then peasant proprietnr.~:. Bnt. nntil it wa-, vrove-i necc. Nary to draw on ~upnli- nf labour out, ide the C.nnmouwealth it w,1,s ltarclly ~Jeces­sar:r V) deal with thnt phase of the q~wstion. They had not fOJ·gutten it., and th ~ro w:1s no inc<>mpati '.>ility lJep·een the Rp cchl'>' of the Secret·1ry fot' ~:\::2:r•cnltun~ ancl hi-; own attitude in counection with the rnatter ancl that of the Go\·ernmt-'llt as a wholP.

i\fr. J. LEAHY: It was mti.sfac'on~ to know that the Premier endorsed what had ·b,•en said by the SPcretary for ... A.gricnltnre, and to have that ex1 )ressiun (;f po1icy frorn the hon. ge-ntle­n1an. There was one. other pn}nt }Je v'ould like infonpation upon~ In pasRing a measnre through the House the other day there was some clauses

relatina to Asiatics, and he understood there had been s~me correstJondence between the English Government and the various Governmentf:l of Australia with regard to that legislatic•n. He had seen from the reporcs of the debates in the House of o~nnrnons, and in various n1ag::cz;ines. that the Japanese Government objected very strongly to any lerrislation dealing with ,J ap:u1ese which ctid nvt ap1~ly to aliens gcnerrLll_r. Could the Pre1nier infurn1 then1 \vhat the position <Jf the Government waR in ret4"J.l'd to it, ::;o that they might know their position when deali1:g with such legislation-wh;>ther it would bJ ratified by the Imperial (inYernment? The information would be of in tere, t tn the pu bllc generally and to the House

The PRK\III;;R: Ha had informed the Home two or three \Vl-"ek~ ngu of tlw position takfn up by the CoLmial OH-lee, who had made represeu­tatiorn; to the GtJVennnent in re~pcct of clauseR contu.intd in the ~-\griunlturnJ B>tuk Act JIHSsod last year, which H;U-dt~ J ap.HlPF~ in•:ligible to Recnre advanceB-not in ~pecilic tenus, but as natives of Asia Lhey were excluclerl-and the hope was expressed by the Culo:Jial. t:-lecretary that the Govt-nnueut wuuid 1-'813 their ,,~ay to m:tke the disqcwlitication apply eqnally to all alien:;: or renwve the dt::-q1vllflcat.ion a.1-; far as the J~t.tJane.:;e were concerned. Tb.1t was the position taken up by the Inq•erial Government in rc,pect to the legislation of the States and the Comtnonwealth, and r,hi8 G,J\'ernm(jnt '"'ould, of course, pav full attentiun not only to the revresernatioris coming from tho In1p{ rial G-o­vernment bc-t also to those coming direct from the Japane"e represeutatives. Tht ,Japanese did not, of cour~e, like to see di~criminution used against theil" ]Jenplt·, whom he thought all h<m. member;o: would admit were superior to other Asiatics ~ he thought it would be found possible to pro­tect the interests of the i:ltate without unduly wounding the susceptibilities of the ,Japanese Go­vernment. He thought the p '"ition for the States and the Con1tnonwt>nlth to Lake up w.:..:::; to refuse to give the ,Japanese grt,lter rights than they themselves c.mceded to the peOJ<le of the British En1pire. [Guvernn1ent rneinbErJ: Hear, hear!]

l\Ir. P AGET had carefully listened to the, rrmarks of the PrcmiH, and felt confident

that when the time came the Go­[1.30 p.m.] ycrnment would take steps to re-

place the labour that had to leave this State the vem dtcr next. Whether that labour could b~ supplied within the foc1r cor­nors of the Commonwealth or from tho con­tinent of Europe "\\as another matter. He supposed the Yoto ,,~ould come on in the trust and ep0cial fund in the immigration Yote, but he de _irccl at thi' ''·r·.go to call the Hon. tho Premier's attcnt;oll to the fact that tl1cr r ''"as u scnou.s shortage of agricultu1·al labourers in the sugar industry. In many districts there ''as plenty of white labour

I akc off but these

agri­C'tllr ancl \Vas ho\\-

-a.., br~>ng·ht about. Prc111im· uon this 1nattcr in connection with

any immigration that n1ight be carried on frorn the 01<1 country, and S('O that as many

:::ultura1 labG1.d'C:rs "'iYerc inclw ··d to COlTIG

as possible (Hr .w, hear!) * l\Ir. :\I)1.::\""~ know th3,t tho fmgar-::::;rov.Ters had a s0rious nroblcm to face in connection Y.·ith the trallSil:ion from black to white labour, but it was not the f<1ult of the Government that that was so. It was the fault of the

Jlfr. Jfann.]

712 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

sugar-growers themselves. Speaking of his ov.n district, he knew that when the Labour party won the first federal elections the sugar­growers said that the position would be re­versed at tho following election, and they would still retain the kanaka. They never made any attempt to replace the kanaka by white labour, as they should have done. (Hear, hear !\ If they had put a small area of their farms under w hi to labour in one ooason, and a little more the next season, and so on, they would not have .,uch a serious pro~)lcm to face as tl1cy had no1v. \"'rith regard to bnnging ploughmr•n out hero, there were thuu"ands of plOL,ghmon brought out here, but as the sugar-planters would not pay them the wages they could get in other industries they took themselves to more cong.enial employ­ment As a matter of fact, a great number oi the sugar-planters got hold of a raw youth, who knew nothing about farming, and paid him the miserable wage of lO.o. or 12s. a week. While the federal party was at Cairns the farmers werP crying out about the dearth of ploughmen, yet two of the farmers who inter­viewed the federal memhors had two Hindoos ploughing for them, although white plough­men were idle at tho time in Cairns If the sugar-grO\JC'h would give a decent wuge 1 s.nd give pl'_,_'Inanc'nt e1nployment all tiw vear round, like thcv did in the old c-;,untry, they v. oulcl gPi all cla,sr~ of good workmen. Ho knew of men who cu,me out from Scotland who afterwards left cho State and went to vV estern Australia or dsc back to Scotland. 'l'hoy would not work on the plantations because they found they could do better at home. If a man was off one clay in Queensland his wages were docked for that amount, but in Scotland he »as em­plo~cecl for six months, and he got his full money when the six months were up. He contonded that the Government was not to blame so much for tho state of things that existed as the sugar-growers themselves.

l\Ir. P AGET explained that ho had no inten­tion uf biaming the Govlornment, and repeated that the ploughmen who came out nere vears ago wore now ~T01".'ing cane for thems~lves, auct that was what oc.used the shortage of agri­cultuml laL.mrers. [Hon. R. PHILP: Die! you c \Ter hear of n1t'n puying their employees only 105. or 12s. per week c] :No. The agncultural la!Jourer made the bc·st settlor and the best farmer they could get.

HoC'f. R. PHILP: He had experience of sug·ur plantations for a long tirne, and had noYcr known Ic~;s tlJan £1 per week and rations paid to labourers. That was the standard wuge for L, bourcrs on the plantations.

Mr. KEOGH: He should be sorry to see such a .;tatement go uncontradicted, that men were induced to come to this State for a waO'e of lDb. or 12s. per week. He had bcvm en;ag0d in ihe agriculturd industry for the past fifty 3 ears, and had never paid such a low wago as that. 'The hon. member, )1r. O'Koeffe, who ropt c:,ented che district next to his could tell them that no ploughmen were e1~gaged for so small a ,uru as 10s. per week. Tho hon. mc1nber ior Cairns know nothing whatever about agricultural pur,uits. If the hon. mem­ber would go up to Eosowood with him and take, hold of the hanclles of a plough, he would do ti1e same, ar1d sllO>\ the hon. member what agriculture was. (Laughter.)

'The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is not discussing the question before the Committee,

[Mr. 111 ann.

but is introducing an entirely different matter. I hope he will confine his remarks to the question before the Committee.

J\Ir. KEOGH: The hon. member for Cairns st:tkd that 10s. per week was the maximum wage paid to ploughmen. He did not believe the hon. member '<,.ts worth 10s. per week for agriuultural pursuits, as he knew nothing at all about agriculture. He asserted most de­cidedlv that there was no man in tho Labour party 'who could show him (Mr. Keogh) how to carry on agriculture.

'l'he CHAIRMAN: Order! I hope the hon. member will confine himself to the question before the Committee.

j;lr, KEOGH said he would endeavour to do so, but he had been drawn off the track hv interjections from hon. members opposite. If men, black or whit.e, were introduced into Queensland, he should be prepared to pay them a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. /Mr. MURPHY: And once you belonged to the Labour part;, !] He thought he cquld put that matter in a nutshelL The hon. member was not m the House when he had the honour of being a member some six years ago.

Tho CHAIRMAN: Order! I hope the hon. member will not take auy notice of the inter­jection, but that he will confine himself to the qucsiiou before the Cornmittee.

Mr. KEOGH: Sometimes an interjection led to something good, but in this instance it was scarcely worth noticing. He should be happy to help in any way to bring about the introduction of labour in farming districts, and he trusted that no wage paid to such labourers would be as low as the amount mentioned by the hon. memher for Cairns. With regard to an interjection he f:Hr. Kcogh) had made about introducing low-class Europeans, he did not moan to say that Europeans were of a low ciass. Some time ago it was stated that the Government of the day intended to introduce Italians to take the place of kanakas, but he :· iwuld not like to see any Europeans placed in the same category as kanakas. At the same time> he should like to see the sugar-planters "'et such a class of labour as would enable them to carry on the industry in a remunera­tive manner, and make it a success.

Mr. ~iAUGHAN: The question raised by the hon. member for Bulloo with regard to the .Yapaneee treaty had elicited an important announcement from the Premier. .'l.s reason­able men they all admitted that this was a very important question, and it was just as well that members of the Labour party, and gentlemen who were interested in the indus­trial question, should bear in mind that the influx of J a.panese, or coloured aliens from Asia, was fraught with serious import to the industrial clas&,·s Jf Australia. [The PRE­oliL::: Not iaLtcrly.] It might be that the influx had not been so large lately as it had been in the past, thanks to the Federal Parliament and the men who went down there pledged to a "White Australia." Mr. Cogh­'"n stated that wo had in Australia at the pros~nt time no loss than 54,000 coloured aliens. Included in that number were 9,000 Pacific Islanders, 30.000 full-blooded Chinese, J.,GSl Hincloos and Cingalese, 3,554 Japanese, aud 5,835 otlwr aliens. In Queensland there were 132,000 adult males, so that practically one in every five of the adult males of Queens­land was a coloured man. Japanese would not come to Queensland simply to engage in navvying work or menial employments, but would enter into competition with those who

Suppl,1J. [13 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 713

wore engaged in trade, commerce, and indus­try. It was therefore just as well_ that mem­bers of the House should say something on this question. [Mr. J. LEAHY: It does not matter two pins what we say on the question.] It mattered a good deal, and the hon. member for Bulloo knew that perfectly welL They wore told that two clauses which the Parlia­ment of Queensland inserted in two measures passed the session before last had been re­jected by the lmp~rial Government because they conflicted with certain provisions of the treaty entered into with Japan. [Mr. J.

LEAHY: That is not so. It is [8 p.m.J because Japan made representa-

tions to England that they must nut be placocl in that position.] That was pr""ctically just the 'ame thing. They would haxe to bo very careful as a State in this matter. There was evidence in the last census returns that the coloured races were entering into competition with their own people in almost eYery industry, and many white men were at present unemployed on account of Asiatic competition.

Mr. ~1_\cNN: The hon. member for Rose­wood had indulged in a tirade of abuse of him in trying to proye that there was no such thing a., lOs. or 12s. a week being paid to ploughmen in Queensland: but if the hon. member turned up hack files of the daily papers, ho would find labour agencies adver­tising for men at those rates.

Mr. O'KEEFFE was prepared to agree with the staten;ent of tlw hon. member for Mackay that tl;crc was a dearth of proper farm labourers, if the hon. member made the star< ment applicable to the whole of Ouccns­land. In the Lockyer district there ha;l been a_ dearth of good farn1 labourers for a long tnne. He had been a farmer in the Laidl0y rlistrict for a i,mg time, and he knew what ·the wages were. Before a man was entitled ~o claim farm labourcc's \Vages ho must kno\v sonwthing about L.Nnn labour. 'If a man kno-,v nothing about st•Jll8lnasonry, there was no reason, if he got a job at the trade that he ;.-)hould be paid. ciLunelnason's wages: In the sau1e "\Vay, thote were 1non y;orking on farms who were not Y.'orth 3s. a week. Competent farm labourers sddom received less than £1 a wcok and thci;· keep, and those were much better v, ag-Gs Lhan 5s. or 6s. a dav when a lTIUh had r.o keep hirnself in a city," whore he had to feed and hoc1se himself. ::\Ien working ou farms got hor.1cs of their o1-n1 much soouer than n1on employed in railway con~truction 1.vho received con-;iderably more wages. Thcr~ wore 111011 who \Yero earning wages when he came to the o'?untry .'>ho were still earning wage::..; but an 1ndut-1tnous farm labourer soon got a homo of his own, which was proof that he was better paid. [:\h. KEOGH: You never paid a man 9s. a wccek for farming.] He had nvYer .P<~id that for farming wmk, but he had s?n10tunes en~~gE'd n1en who knew nothing about farm ','·ork, and who sometimes did not want work at all, ior 10s. or 5s. a week. 'rhev should face the question of immigration, so far as farm labourers \Vero concerned and induce a proper cl.tss of people to come to the Stat,-men who would settle on the land. A groat percentage of the people in \Vest More­ton to-day were men who came here and worked for 1.5s. and £1 a week, and who Yery 'lOon got homes of their own, and did not bother the Government to find employment :for them. He worked for 15s. a week himself

when he first came to Queensland, but he was not twelve months in the country before he had a home of his own, and he was there to-day. (Hear, hear!\

Question put and pacsed.

AcDIT m'FICI>~.

The TREASURER moved that £7,771 be granted for the" Audit Office." There wer·e a few alterationR in the vote~chif'fly rearrangen1entf:; of the staff. The accountant and chief inspector was down for an increase of £2~. [Hon. R. PHILP : \Vho is he ?l :\Ir. Rohertson. He was the second man in the office, and a very crtpable officer, be believed. Then there were three small increaseB, amounting altogether to £40, and there wa' a new appointment of an assistant inspector at £15(i. Owing to the death of one man in the office, the net increasA was £61. In other respects the vote was the same as for last year.

Mr. FORSYTH noticecl that the number of a(,_'1istant inspectors was increased frorn four to six. He understood that the Public Service Inquiry Board had been throng:, the office, but now they found that it was neccs,ary tn apvoint twn additional men. [The TllEAScRER : Y on will see that there are the same, numbPr of officers. '!'here has been a rearrangement of the work.] The Treasurer was speaking nf the whole department, but he was speaking of the inspection staff. Last year there were ten men employed, and now there were twelve. \Vhy was it found necessary, ~10 soon af!er tbe Public t\ervice Inquiry Board went through the office, to increase the staff? Another matter to which he \\ished to refer was the bank auditor. Seeing that they had made a new arrangement with the Queenshnd National Bank, it appe:netl tn him to be unnecessary that they should employ a bank auditor. He could understand that people outside might think it necessary that a man should go through thP books of the b::tnk as an as,urance to tbe pnb!ic that everything was right, but he thought that the money mif'ht be saved. In connrction wiGh travelling expenseR, tbe amount spent last yc'ar was £1,438, nnd yet they were again a"ked to vote £1,600. \Vas the additional £163 neces>,ary because of the two additional inspectors?

The TREASURER was rather snrprised that the hon. memhershould make quite a song a),out the appointment of two rt<sistant inspectors. There were twenty-four officers in the depart­ment, the same number as last year, so that there was really no increase in the strength of the staff at all. There was merely a re,urange­ment of the work, which was necess-uy, accorcl­ing to the judgment of the Auditor-General. Two examiners for accounts had dropped out and two assistant inspectms were appointed. As to the bank rtuditor, he thought the salarv of £500 could be m\·ecl. [Mr. :l<'oR~YTH: Why don't you save it?] Because the public and the House would not have it. The GovernmentJ could not do a thing like that just because they thought fit. \Vhen they were passing the Queensland National Bank Agreement Act last year, if they had proposed to take out the bank auditor they "ould have been denounced from both sides of the House as taking rtway the safe­gua,rds of the State. He bad no hesitation in saying, as far as the Government security w>s concerned, this £ii00 expenditure was absolutely unnecessary. But the Act required it, and the House and the country would not have been satisfied without it, and if he had proposed to make a change there would have been an insinua­tion that the Queensland National Bank had got

Hon. W. Kidston.]

714 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] ;Supply.

hold of the Government. Perhaps the expendi­ture was worth incurring, so as to give the public outside absolute confidence in the matter.

Mr. HA \VTHORi'\ considered tlmt this ex­penditure was absolutely necesoary, and the Bill was passed last year mainly on the understanding that there wa~ to a Govenunent auditor. There was no doul!t c'mlideuce of the public \Vonld be \~ery n1uch ~haln~n if there wer~-: not an auditor there to go through the secnritiPs regu~ ]arly, seeing the anwunt ot n1nney tlH~ Gt>vern­meut had at stake in the bank. Fur public c'Jil­fidence alone trl' money "''"' well spent.

Mr. PAGET asked the Treasurer if he could inform the Committee when he\\ as likely to have the Auditor-General's report?

The TREASFRER: .,\.bout the end of the 111onth. .He exp]ai.u t"~tnt, a~ it wa:-:; not possit,le to get ;\.uditnr-(:ieneral's report in the hands of hon. rn•"mber<3 br>fnre the di~cn::;':.ion on :,he lj,inancial ;.:)~aternent Ci1lrl8 011

1 he had g-ot

the Tre.c~sury ·t·~LdllnL printeJ and di,tributed for their informrttion. [:.Ies,.rs. LEAHY and :FOilSYTH: Very useful information.]

}fr. P .1\._GET: Scnne hon. n-H?rnber.s ,,·onld have liked to have the rPport in their hands before this vnte was put throngh. LaRt year he brought up the matter of the lack of au·lit insp ~tof', as he found that a number of pnb:ic accounts had not been audited for ·1 considcrablP time. Of course, the rnore important public accnuntH ,,·ero audited up to the pre1·ious :\.larch, which was practically up to date. He thought the accounts of the Trea"1ry and other dep>trtments, and the local authorities as well, could not b0 inspected too often or too rigidly, as it would lew1not only to correctness, but have the effect of keeping men in the rigbt path, and he was pleased to see that there was an additional inspector. He presumed that this gentleman who wrts down as Treasury inspector at £22\0 wae rea,l!y an audit inspector. [The TnEASUHBR: Yes; it is just a c'1ange in name.] If there were not sufficient inspectors, the Auditor-General should be provided with money ior additional inspe~tors.

The TREASURER quite agreed with the hon. member for J\Iackg.y as to the impnrbnce of keeping a sufficient staff to do all the auditing work required. Tiw, best n1eans for en;,.nring accuracy in the public accounts was the ever­present knowldge on the l"trt of officers that theie accounts would be efficicntlv and properly inspected. But for s'mw time paiit there had been some doubt''" to whether the Federal Govern­rnent woulJ not. ~oon have an audit st ttf of their own. Ollr itudit Office had been doing w >rk for the :Federal Gcwernment, and at any time they might withdmw that work, anrl th• n our 8taff would]),, q•1ite suffki<nt. Of con>:se, thr·re had been considerable pre-..;~:mre of late in the way of keeping do,,;,n1 expenditure, but he was not [1\\ arn that the efficiencv of the audit staff had snliererl fron1 that, and tht>y might take it as thaG the stoif a,; quite suf!ieif at fnr the n~uE<t not rnn tlway \Vith the Auditor-Geneml'c' repc>rt this year. Yew of tlw other StatPN oat Qneenshnd Treasurv beftn·e he work wll." 1 rge1y of a pcrsnna.l uatnte he could nnt get it ont 1nuch quicker, uo n1a/tor wbat staif he had.

Ho;;. R. PHILP asked if the Tre~surer could give the Connnitt(""'R nny inform~tinn in re~; ~rcl to the account>mt? He might tell the Com­mittee that :\lr .. Hills, 'Nith his private work and his pension, was b8tter off than when he

[lion. W. K idston.

was in the Govern1nent ~ervice. His services \vere app1 cciated out~ide by private individua_l:::;~ when thA Trea:::ourer could not iind work for hnn in the Governrnent service.

Mr. MA UGHAJ\: This wasP very important departn1ent, and. on t_lw \Vhu1e thu offi~er~ did very guod work. \V1tb regard to 'he Increase set dowll for the Chief In~!Jector, he 1night be an excellent ofiict~r, but h<! wa~ ~cillg to enter hh.; prote~t ngaiu::;t givin~ increast'S of lhi:-; character right through the J~~tin1Jtt·~, e~-'pt clJ.lly \V ben we had bO lfl~lny Ull211lployLd 1\.uking- for \Vork \~ ho could not get it, and thtlt' wacl wuch difficulty in . g'{~ttnJg tlw allow::~ncP fo1· indigent pl'upll:. Frun1 <.:. dom:nneut tbe Tre<;~ surt·r p1c e ted to th'= Hon~c tile other dn.y, lt was painful t.o ee that HlE'lllber:-; of relief gangl:i \vere getting ns lo\v as l:·'· ()J. nud 2-:'. a (L:y, aud ther lol'e they could not nfforcl to gire iucrea-.<s to officer.·; getting £-±00 a Yt'ar. [}Ion. 1-l. I'tH~P: 'rhe 1nan occupi.t>s the pot-:Jitinn of a Iltc\n gett1ng £fJOO a year.J -'>lr. RuLcrt'llll might be a !iro>t­cla~s offieer, but , .. s long as tho~'J uther 1njn. ticeR exi•,t, d be· con,idered it i1i,; dntv tu eutec hi" r ... rotl --t tu any inr.reLbf::'ti of this eh~tr,\cter.

::\Ir. 'WOODS aJ,o entered bi.,; prutest. The late (}o\·ernuH;nt at the tin1e nf tht; rednctlon increa~ed certain officers of smne department~, while they were dt<ereasing n1en in lovver grade~} ancl it wa:-; an anorna~y to hnn rhat thi•·· Ci-1,vern~ 1nent \vere pr::,ctieally fnlhnving- in their stqJ;';" [The PRE)l!EH: No.] Some departments had already l~v.uPd in~tructions th:tt no :-;erv..tnts in the depnrt1nent ·wonld receive incri_J,st.-.; ·who got over £100 a year, and yet they cmne down atld slapped £26 a year extra on t·• the" dary <:f a man receiving £100 a year. Be bad !lO obJeC­tion to officers getting incre..1ses provided n1en in s1ual1er gracletJ gl)t increaseR, some of whon1 had been twenty yearo in the service, but who would not get increases if they had £100 a year.

The PRE:\.fiEll hoped the hon. member fur Ipswich and the hon. member for \Vouthakata

would conte:1t theru::-;t:::lve~ by enter­[8.30 p.m.J ing their protests al(ainst any in-

creases in "alarie" <wer £100. This was a c..tse in which the increase could be fully justified. It was not corP3ct, as the lulll. HJein­ber ju, t 'tated. that this Go,·ernm·cnt was following the el'il example of tlwir predecessors in jncrea~ing- the high Ralaries and decreaHing t.be saL.tri'-":-: of the junior~. ~-\.H a 1natter of f<lCt, the principlP on which they VN·'nt in fraruing these Estirnntt• wa_..; that m1y inerease in the ~-al rie~· over £100 shonld be refused, except in special ca:-;e,S

1 aurl if hou. lnerull-:·r~ l'l' a,rclw J t e E:iti­

Inate~ through fr Hll the Chief Seeretar~'r~ ':-; Dt-part¥ u1ent to the Railw;_tV JJ1 partrne:nt lr, \v·unld be found that "\v~l~e Ringuhrly few in.-:tancf::: of incH'·.-..{_':.:: :;:rrlnl'i0-.: of (dfir>H'•" dr<twing over £100 per Rllnum. Th},; one \\'<lS one of the. few 0:-..:ceptinn~, a11d th~ (j.(,·.erllnH;H1· \:ere prepared to ju"tify the ex;:.;Pp~itm uwde in the cn~e of this ottk ·r. RH wa:-; re mJlllt'tH:ied 1Jy the hc,;cJ of hi:~ depa,~·tmert\>--, he J-\nditur-(Jenera1--for an i~1crerr, r-J thi.-> he wa..; rccomrrh.'1~de.! f~n~ fficp hy the l:'tJlJlil- Service a ,n]nry of £;)00 a, an(l he a p •.-..ititm for The app(>inted £423, gheu him promotion, thC'y were hirn inere1nent-: to hi,-.:; b.Y P'tsy stage:-;. must. remernb•·r th .t _ntficial wati occnpving a v;:ry irrjp rtant ofticr. He W.'I.S

a nutn weLl tit;terl to discharge I he dnti(~B) nnrl. the GoYt>rnm~:nt were paying hin1 a-; hl~h \ ~ tla.ty as they could efford. He wrt' sure I he Cornrulttee gen'erally would admit that the amonnt now asked

Suppl,y. [13 SEPTEMBER.] Suppl,y. 715

for was by no means a liberal; tlat·y for the office. He was not overpaid, and, if the finances irnproved, no rnatter what Governrnent waR in office, they \Vuuld be justified in recmntnending­that lle should rec~ivc a further increase of £25 next year.

Hox. R. PHILP Jl >inted out that l\:Ir.13renn<>n was ~-Ir H,obertson~~ junim·, nnd yet J\Ir. Brennan was given a, position with a salary of £500 a ) E\'J,r. ~Ir. H. 1)L>ertson wns doing H{nch nuwe responBible work, and was being offered £4ii0. \Vlmt he object.ed tow, "thB hnn. member for Clermont, the hem. r'lPmber for \Vooti1akat •, and Blso the Prernier b :..ying that the late Go­\ ernwe~1t iur:"f J-sed the high :-ml'·l'ies. [The PRE­::\IlEH: l did not ..;ay that. I w .... -.; (ruot,inv. the hou. rnexnber for \Vootha.kata.J .. A~ J\Ir. l{nbert~on waH gettinQ" ouly £-130, and his predec""~*\r was getting- .£1!00, he thought 1Ir. Rolll'rt ... on had a grieva-nce. The hon. mernber for \Vooth;lk:.tta could not expect to get rnen to do work of 1 hat kincl for ten " hob" a day. The ::;ervic~·ci of this officer in a mercantile or ba.nking bn:·dnF.;;;-; wunld be ·worth n1ueh wore than £-!.JO. He W<!,8 aston­ishei that Hncb rnen t"!tayerl. so long in the Hervice when they were g·etting a ·-alary like that.

* Mr. J\.IAUGHA"' was not one of those who believed that all men werf, errnal; neither did he agree that ,;!1 men shoulrl get the r".me salary. He believed in eqnal opportunities bein~ gi\·en to alL The Government was probably justified in giving this increase; bnt what he ;,-ished to point out was that there were other persC'ns in the public sm·vice who were not getting increases, and these wore not only confined to the electnrate represented by the Att<>rney-General »nd himself. [Hon. R. PrULP: Your electorate is not badly off for public sen,;nts.] He would have a good 'deal to sa;- about that question later on. He could assure the hon. member that h8 should be able to show, before he had been"s peaking long on the Hail­way Estimates, th,;t the workshops at Ipswich were not an El l>ondo. Although he was,, little out of order, he did not think that there was a bigger sweating shop in the State than the mihmy workshops at Ip;wich. In priv»te engmeering workshop.s in Queemland they would treat their apprentices and mechanics much better than they were being treated in the 8tate workRhops at Ipswich. They would never break contracts like the gentleoun who was previously Secretary for Rai} wayF:", who :.:auctioned the suspension of the classifintion of these young men for two years.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. gentle­ma~ is uut of order in referring to the Railway Estimates.

Mr .. MAUGHA::' apologi,;ecl for breaking the Standmg Urders, out he could not resist the temptation. He would sa~.isfy himself with entering his against tbis increaRe, although hre th~t ::'l'lr. Robertson might be ,;n excellr nt ol·Hcer.

Mr .• T. LEAHY, replying to brt~king contract<.] at Ips;.vjc ~1, s no hrt.-,,king contr<.wt abuut !t, a~ Parliamen\ a entered the certain rat~-,, '' scrl w '' P,lrliarllent the rnoney.

charg-e of there was

under Act of

The OHAlR:\IAX: I have to r9mind bon. member that I c>tlled the hon. for Ips\vieh to nnler for r·_f~'rring to that suhjtet. I hope that he will nut pnrone the 111:1,t·ccr further.

11r .• J. I.,EAHY: Apprentice, would a!1,-ays get i:rlcrea8eR if P~rliarne11t ·votP.l the nwney, bl1t there V~rere times \vhen they had not the mon8v to giye any increa~t -:, and the present Guvcrri'~ mem dicl exactly the "'me thing as their prede­ce,sors. He did not think that matters rf that kind ought to be discmsed on this vote, but

when statements of that kind were made he bad a perfect right to reply to them. He had gone as far as the hon. gentle1nan went, and he wat; satisfied. " J\lr. J\IAOARTXEY agroed with the remarks of the hon. members for I!J"vicb and \Vootha· lmta, notwithstanding all tfmt had been said by hon. IYlPinber:" It was probn.bly a n1i.,f(lrtune fnr srnne pttblir; ser' anLs th<.;~ tht>y bad that J:nblic ::3erviee B~Jard inquiry a, year ,,r so ago. He v,:as not at all SB,ti~tied Lhat tbe \Vork of i.lJat board wa~ genuine Ot' good. I-Ie said so at the tirne. [The l_)HEJIIEl~: 8·~ver::1l tiut·2H.] Yes, several tirne.-::~; and he ~pould c.}utinue tu say it until jw.;ticc~ vvas done. 1"'here were public officers \Vhn had tbeir salarieR indiscrin1inately cut down v;,.'ithont lnqulry or con ;i\lt:ratiuu, aud now they had ollt' of the big , .. 'J 1rie"- picked out and recmnrn, tH.led fnr nn increase. 'T'l-eiH.:>; WE're n1en reduc~:"d on the recouunendation of the boarrl \\ ho wc·re doing respcnoible work and \vere only gett-ing a livinp;; ·wage, and he did not find any c,_msid.- ration gi \en to th~m. It was a mist,1ke to pick out onG rnan, aud, in justice to the service :<sa whole, he endorsed the remarks of the hon. members for Ipswich 'md \Yootha­kata to th:tt extent.

Question put and passed.

AGENT-GENEl!.\.L JWR THll S'LW'E (LOXDOX OFFICE).

The PRE:YfiER moved that £1,980 be granted for s»larie; for the London office, "Agent­GenerJ l for the State.'' Tbi;:; an1ount was £(i61 less th m was voter! last ye <r, the items which di, appeared from the vote being ,;ccountant, £300; clerk in charge of indents, £300; ,;nd irJHpector (Fonr months), £61. These changes had been made after consultation with the Agent-General. One of the c-odaries was transferred to tbe trust funds. hut this vote showed a reduction of £Glil. Besio~-' carrying on the office with a reduced staff, it was proposed to further econnmise by leasing a portion of the premises in Victoria street occnpi· d by the Agent-GeneraL The Government had hoped to be able to h~se a portion to the Agent-General of ,,,,me other State, but it ,;ppeared that that officer had a larger e·Jtahlishment than c·mld be accon1moflated there. :U-,ailing- such an arrange­ment the rooms would be le.,sed to private inclividuftls.

Ho:'!. R PHILP: It was very satisfactory to see that there was some reduction in this vote, though of cour~e th1_' reduction wn.~ not as great as appearerl >tt first sight, an amount having beAn transferred to ttnother vote. He should like to kno\·.r, in viP'~- of the n:cent \7 i~it of the A gent~ General to Qneensland, wh,,ther it wns intended t1) enlarge thf~ scope of his clnties, and entrust him with the duty of promot.in:.; immigration and land Rett!en1ent. It had been rnnwurf'd i hat ei~her the lE-'0'de1· tlf the Lalw1~r. party or :~le Pre­Il118r was gnn1~· tu ~~nper.~cde Str Horn.ce lozer as _cl_gent-Ger ern, I. I-Ie hop fl they would have an ~'~"'nrance that there wa."'i no intention of super-· ·,··din~ Sir }foracR Tnzei\ awJ thnt the Pretllier wou1d give the Cmnruittee ~:_nne infornl:ltirnt re­garding lh:l't gE:ntlen~::Ln':::; vi:.;Jt to Queen~l..-,lld.

: He had seen 1n 1n·intt on Horar the statement

was to v::wate position as u·nnt-I~PnPr.n,l at tlw en cl of the Y''<.r. Ee had

no other authority for that statmnent. .._~s.; to the inquiry wh0ther the hon. rnmnber for Barcoo wa.:i goinL( honlH m; ~..\gent-GerF'raJ, he cnulcl sav that he had no prt~c.ent intention of ne~£;otiation:' \vith the hon. 1nen1br_;l' fnr for tha.t purpo:::;o, nor hacl he any presen~ or pros~ pective intentione of opening negotiatwus with himself on the mbject. (Langbter.) He knew

Hon . .A. 1ll organ.]

716 Suppl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

the rumour the hon. member referred to. It had been set afoot, and reset afoot, periodic:ally, for purely party political purposes. [Hon. H. PH!LP: I dirl not set it afoot.] No; he did not believe the hon. member would do anything of the kind. but the organs which supported the hon. member had been doing it industriously. However, he might set the hon. member'e fears at rest by telling him that if the salary of the .A.gent-General were douhlB what it was, and any Government of which he was not a member offered him the position, he would decline to accept it. (Hear, h< ar !) X othing w0uld induce hirn tn go to London ; ~o that the hon. m em her himself had still a chanc~' of the position. (Laughter.) It was quite possible that whPn the Commonwealth Governrnent appointed a High Commissioner, it mbht be found desir­able to recDnsider the London arrangements for the :State. The Cmnrnonwealth G-nvt-rmnent had he;'n talking a very lnng tin1e about appointing a High Con1missioner, but he had no doubt that, scouer or bter-probably c,ooner-they would make such an e~ppointment; and if the man chosen for! he position was cho~en for his per­sonal qualifications, >trart from po1iticf<l con­siderations-that wa", if he was the high-class man they hoped he would be-he might be able to do 1 a~, well ~~sa, local representative uf the StatD could do, much ,,f the work clone by our "\geOJt­General. But the StAe would still require to be repreeented in London for connnercial rea-,ons. The dutie,; which would then attach to the office would be 'ery different from the duties which now attach t" it, and a different class of man ~a 1nan thoroughly Yerl:.'e-d in corr1~ mercial n1atten;~-n1ight be nCCPssary. Recognis~ ing that the Oomntonwealth (}overnnlent tnust fil~st take acticn in thiR matter, ht• \vas not in a position to S'Y how long the exioting I .. nndon arrangen1ents would continue; but the moment the CmnrrlOll\vealth Government de­cided to act in this matter that moment the question of the representation of (~ueenoland in London would come up for review. \Vith reg·ard to Sir Horace Tczer's visit to the State, he brou~ht Sir Horace out with the object oi con,;ulting him as to his duties in London, and to give him an opportunity of renewing his acquaint­ance with the State he represented, and fami­liarise himself v,ith its altered conditions and it~ progress in rna.nufacturing and producing jndub~ trie", and so equipping himself, rts he had hoped, for the better discharge of his duties on his return to London. Sir Hnmce Tozer had visited several portions of the State, and had consulted with Minister·,. He had desired to get from Sir Horace his ideas as to what policy the Govern­ment should adopt in order to il"ure a larger influx of popuhttion from the old country than we had been getting in the immediate past. He was disappointed that Sir Horace Tozer had so few suggestions to offer to th0 Government, but he did approve of action on the lines the Go­vernment proposed to take RS provided in the Land Bill now before the House. He was of opinion-as he (the Premier) was of opinion­that legislation such as was contained in that Bill would, if properly advertised in the old country, have the effect of attracting to Queens­land a considerable number of people of the right class, rtnd son1e of the provisinnR of that Bill were the result of their interviews with the Agent-General. If the House assented to those provi"ions, h~ was hopeful that they would be able to make effective nse of them in the old conntry. They had also a good deal of chat with the Agent-General on the subject of adver­tising the State in the old country. Sir Horace had much t•> say about Canadian methods, some of which he approved of, and others he disapproved of as methods that could not

[Hon. A. M organ.

be profitably followed by Queensland, as the results would not be likely to be so pronounced as they were in the case .,f Canada. He empha­si~ed the fact, which was 11,pparent to all of them, that the great advantage Canada had was not so much in its greater attractions of soil or climate as in its nearness to the old country-a person could get there in a week at a very much lower cost than he could get to '2ueAnsland, the voyage to which took fi ,-e or seven weeks. [Hon. R. PHILP: That is a big drawback.] No <ionbt; and 1t was a drawh1ck which they could not correct or repair. They had to recognise the fact, and do what they could by way of improv­ing comn1unication so a.s to Ininimise it. But they could not alter the great advantage the Canadian Dominion had over us in that respect. \Vhile, however, Canada }utd that advantage, she had disadvantages which did not attach to Queensland. He was inclined to think that if Queensland-and not only Queensla.nd but the rest of the States of the Commonwealth-were able to show to the world-particularly to the world of the British Empire-that they were not only able to pay their way, but were actually doing it, they would have a greater attraction in the eyes of the general public than they had had for some time past. That w· s one reason why he thought it was wise to refrain from doing Rny-

thing in the way of attracting popu­[9 p.m.] lation to the State until the conse-

quences of the disturb,mce rtculting from the federal union and tbe drought had been removed. Now that they had already shown that thev were able to l'"Y their way they were in a· much better l""ition to enter upon a policy of adYertising the State more laruely in the old country than they had been doi~1g for some time past. But it W'Juld be neces,ary when doing that to aho put down as far rrs they could the c tmpaign of vilification that had been entered <lpon by interested people aaainst the States and the Commonwealth in the ofd cCJunt.ry. [Governn1ent rr1e1nbers: Hear, be,u !] He ht'ctrd from various quarters com­plaints against what wde vulgarly known as the "stinking.fi.,h" party, and he thought those complaints were well grounded. [Government members : Hear, hear !] [Hon. R. PHILP: \Yho are they?] He would not stop to answer the qne;­tion at the present moment, but there was no doubt that such a party existed. In every State of the Commonwealth there werepeoplewbodid not find it incompatible with their sense of duty to the State in which they lived and to the Common­wealth to denounce the politics and politicians of the State and of the Commonv. eo,lth through the Press mediums of the old country. They wrote letters in vigorous denunciation of their own country. [Hon. R. PHILP : To Reynolds' Newspaper.] To snch papers as the London T1.mes. LHon. H. PHILP: The Labour party have wntten to Reynolds' Nee spape1·.] 'l'he Labour party might have done so, but of late years the Labour party had not been the only offenders in that respect. [Mr. 1\IACAHT~EY : There is only too much justification for it, unfortunatelY.] Here they had an echo from this party .. If. it ~-a,s true that there was only too much JustJJ]catwn for it, the patriotic thing to do would be not to write letters for publication in the old country, but to address himself to the mean., of effecting a cur" here to keep his troubles to himself until he had effe~terl a cure, and, having achieved a vic­tory, he might publish the net results abroad. In addition to the" stinking fish" party they also had a "dirty bird" party in every one of the States, and they had one in QueenEiand. LHon. R. PHILP : On the other side.] That party was composed of men, both inside and outside of Parliament, who did not hesitate to denounce Queensland. [Mr. ~IACARTNEY: No-politics

Suppl,y. [13 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 717

and politicians.] They did not hesitate to pro­claim to the world that there was an utter Jack of confidence, which was due to tbe fact th>tt the electors of the Stat0 had, by an ovenvhehning majority, di~placPd one Government and set up another in their place. [Govemment members: Hear, hear !] [J,Ir. J\IACART~EY : A result achieved by broken pledg<',,] That \\as, per­haps, only a natural ebullition of feeling when hon. Ine111ber~ wt~re smarting under the sting of defea'.. One could excuse it if it were only con­tinued for a day, or a week, or a 1nonth, but when it was continued year after year, when it was carried into th,,, Pre:'S organs a.nd proclaimed to the W<>rld that the discontent here w.,s due to uneasiness as to the course of political events, and when it was scattered broadcast by the medium of letters of correspondents to the i}apers of the old country, was it any wonder that, in the end, thooe papers, first listening, at last began to believe, and to repeat the stories which were told here by interested pressmen and politicians. And was it ,-,ny wonder that, having- listened, they repeated, and the people believing, they should, in the end, begin to sutJer the conse­quences of unp,.,triotic conduct on the part of their own citizens? [Government members: Hear, hear !] Th>tt had been the experience of the Commonwe>tlth, and of all the Statee, and especially of Queensland. They were suffering­from a want of confidence resulting- from much that had been said, not from patriotic, but from pwty-political motive;;. [Government members: He><r, hear !l

'' HoN. R. PHILP was gratified the hon. gentleman had been drawn a little. He had got angry over the matter. If there was any man in Queensland who belonged to the "stmking fish" party, It was the Premier. All his speeches were directed against the policy of the late party of whJCh be was a member, and trying to prove they were extravagant. And no party had tra­duced (~ueensland more than the Labour party. They used to write to Reynolds' Nc1tspaper such stories a-' that they had heard from the hon. member for Cctirns about ploughmen being paid 10<. and 12s. a week. The Premier's colleague in the other Honse had also spoken a bout men being fed like bogs and housed like dog;;. He did not believe that wa;; true, but wa,; not that crying "stinkinf( fish"? He believed the em­ployers of (-iueensland were just as good to their empl•.yees as the employers of any country in the world. The hulk of 'hem had risen from the ranks of the employees themselves, just as t.he great majority of the farmer.. of Queens­land had once risen fron1 farrn labourer:'. He did not think that there was any country in the world whore a farm hbourc r conld g ~t on as well as in Queemland. All their rieh men had had to make their first start themselves. He would be the last man in the Committee to say a word ~lgain:it the Rtate or (lgainst its people, lmt, as he bad tolc! th,, Premier before, he wa-; injuring the country by hi~ legislation. The great, cry DO\V \:va8 that the Federallrrnni~ gration Re~tricti1)n Act should he amend•--rl. [The PTIE1IIER: 'fh <t. is one of the things in regard to which prbsrrlen and politicians have i,rnssly and deliberatel:v slandered the country.] l'vir. \Vatson Limsdf now admitted that those restrictions w.re only imp:>sed to prevent the introclnction of men to te,ke the pi te<J of strikers at low 'A·ag·,~. He did not know of a single instance in which 8. strike lutd been brought to an end by the introdnction of labour from the old e mntry. [J\Ir. CowAP : They brought bootmakers out to l'vielbonrne.] \V ell, one little s allow did not make a summer. Strikes were over long before men could be

brought from the other side of the world. Labour men now found that that legislation had not n1::vle wa)...'es higher or W'lrk rnore plentiful. \V ages were lower, largely hy reason of L•bour legit:Jlation, and be was sorry to Ree the Premier taking up the legislation of the Labour party a" he was doing. The hon. gentleman would yet rue the dc.y that he did so, and would be the first to admit his mistake. One of the biggest mis­takes he was making was introducing his Land Tax Bill. Hon. members opposite had decried the country from one end to the other. It had not been done on his side of the House to his knowledge. He was sorry that the Premier had dwelt so much upon the appointment of a High Commissioner for the Commonwealth, because the feeling in the other States was against such an ap­pointment, and, no matter whether a High Com­mi:;sioner was appointed or not, they wonld con­tinue to have separate representation in London. It would be a mistake to have the High Commis­sioner taking the place of the Agent-General. [The PREmER: I made it clear that that is not intended.] 'l'be High Commissioner could not do the work which was done by our Agent-General. [:Vfr. LESINA: He can pay the interest on our public debt.] The interest was not paid by the Agent-General, but by the Bank of ]~ngland and by the queemland X ational Rank. But there was a gre:ct deal of other work which had to he done by the Agent-General, and which could only be done by a man from (..)ueensland. If a man from one of the other States was appointed High Commissioner, as was most likely, he was not likely to he of much use to Queensland, judging by the amount of interest which the people of the southern States took in Queensland. The first paragraph one saw in Sydney papers about Queensland was "Another case of plague in Queensland,,. and in Victorian papers there was nothing at all about this State. He hoped the Premier would never entrust any of our busine"s to any High Commi 'sioner appointed by the FecleBl Government. because it would be a bad thing- if be did. He was pleased the Premier had no intention of superseding Sir Hora.ce Tozer, because there was no doubt he had been a capital Agent-General for Queens­land. l-Ie was most active, took a great interest in everything connected with the country, was a member of the Pacific Cable Board, nnd had been to Canada and the States of Europe in C<)nnection with the nffairs of the State. \Vhat the Premier said was quite true­that we c mld not compete at present with Canada in imn1igration; but the time would come wh n we >hould be in a better position in that r~~pect. The other night som.~ b<Jn. mem­bers on the other side and the Premier had pooh-poohed the idea of Queensland selling 4,000,000 acres of hnd in one year; but only :vesterday he saw tll.lt the c~nadian rail­way syndicates sold £3,000,000 worth of land last y< .1r. [Mr. K1nm: Go,.J help Canada.] C>nada had no I.abonr ]>arty, either in the State Hon~es or the I'ederal l-{ouse; anJ it \\as oue of the happiest places under the "m. Year .,fter year tLey had surpluses, and had induced 125,000 people annm,lly to go there for years rast. \Ve \Yanterl. to get tJome of tho~e people to cotne here, but up to the present we had done nothing whatever.

Mr. LESINA could not agree with the leader of the Opposition's congr;o"tulations to the Pre­mier on the announcen1• nt tha.t it ·wa~ nnt the intention of the Governrnent to recall Sir liorace Tozer. That gentlernan had denounced the socialistic party, and in one nf his speeches said that when this new Land Bill for the encourage­ment of settlement was passed it would kill

1J1 r. Lesina.]

718 Suppl;IJ. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl;IJ·

socialism. The speech was delivered at the annmtl Queensland dinner in London, and re. ported in the B1·itid1 Australasian of lith July, 1906. He said-

'fhe Government were also follmving the example of the private o·wners; they were 1inding out all the lands that were available to them ; they were cutting tho:-:e up, and they gaYc me in:strnctions to :sny that on liheral terms- I hope without rent for a number of year~­they were prepared to gi re the use of them to the people who wonlU come oYer to talw tlwm. 1'lmt, I think, means \Olnmc-. for the future ~c ttlcntent of the po!itic:tl c>oncliLions of Australia. \Ylleu .}'On once get those people on the htnd, there ·will bt:: an end to all questions of sociali~m.

At this function Sir Horace Tozer brought up the question of his retirement. He understood that Sir Horace could be recalled in six months. To quote his exact words, he said-

It is Yery probable, however, that a change will be mad~ in my position before the end of next year. (Cries of" ~o.") I only t-iay it is probable. }2\, nts are easting their shadows before, and although duriug· my last visit t,o Australia I was most cordially welcomed by my Gvvernment, and :pcrs.onally thankPd for my zeal and energy in th..::ir f"'~URe, still tht' care politjcalremi­nisccnee-; \vhlch abide, an<l I am perfectly prepared to accept the ~itnatwn.

At that b"nquet a cable was read from the Prentier pointing nut that conditlonR \:Ver8like1~ to improve considerably, that the State had a splendid future before it, and that the deficits had come to an end. A gentleman ·.vas intro­duced flt thi.' banr1net by Sir Rorace Tc1zer-Sir :i'.Ialcolm NicEacham-who had some! hin;;- to say ahout the prospect of Sir Horace Tozer being recalled by the Government at the instigation of the J~abour party. He '·aid--

I noticed that something might happen, and I would ask Sir Horace not to feel at all di~,;tppoiutccl or to think that anything is likely to come ot' the fact rhat the Labour party in tbeir ronveEtions have made one of their platforms the retirement or withdrawal of Sir Ho race.

He (Mr. Lesina) did not know that Sir Malcolm McEacbarn could give Sir Horace Tozer the assurance that the Labour party would not bring him back. Sir Homce Tozer was prac­tically the London leader of the "stinking fish" party ; he had decried the Commonwealth legis­lation more than any other person, both in meetings and in the Press, and could hardly restrain his verbosi t.y in {,.lueensland in that respect, and wherever he went he libelled Com­monwealth le:;is!ation. Even Sir l\Ialcolm JYicEacharn had pointed out on this occ.esion that the Labour party in Australia were not opposed to legislation of the right sort. . He said there was a general idea throughout England that the I~abour party were against immigmtion, but he happened to know from Mr. \Vatson him· self that he welcomed any immigranb who came thm·e with sufficient capital to settle upon the land. He (Mr. Lesina) said what the Labour p,1rty were r!pposed to 1n Australia ·was the -introduction in any }Jart of the Commonwealth of indented labour brought out to takA the place of ~,.trikers, or at lower rates of pa:7 to thai:; prevailing in ~Australian industries. Sir Horflce Tozer, in respondin:; to the toast of his health, said-~

1r1t11 to the te1·m of hi:'1 m'mated ~ix mo11ttls' notwe, in O\Yl1 sup·g1- tion, after he had three' ,u·~~- He had (}over;unent that they rh to get rj,j_ Oenera1, bnt there were public stance~ i.n the ~ume 11l'msed to tl1ose 1YlJo so him in thA chair. and rendered such signal State or Queensland dnring his term of oflice.

'!'ho<e W.Jre the facts as stated in the British A ustralasicm, and before they voted this money,

Leshw.

a protest ought to be made by the Labour party auainst the continuity in office of Sir Horace T~ozer as AO'ent-Geneml, who had been the b!Jte noi1·e of the ~Labour party in the House for many year>. No man had ever occupied a prominent position in the C"binet of his country ,and Pxercised his infl,Ience while holding that position, witb a more determined intent to m jure this party, both politically and socially, than Sir Horace To,er had, and he (i.\Ir. Lesina) had a! wttys expres"ed the opinion, every time he had brought the matter before the House, that if ever an opportunity offered it was the ambition of this party to get level with Sir Horace Tozer. He said that advisedly. [Mr . .FoRSYTH: Pure revenge.] It was not a question of reYenge, but of poetic justice. ·what did they dn with a man who broke the law? If be was caught, society got level with him by inflicting puniohmcnt upon him, and they .qhould impose this punishment on Sir Horace Tozer by depriving him of his office in the centre of the Empire, at a place where his words, exprei'sed a.t banquets and in rnagazines, carried conoiderable weight, but which were abhorrent to two-thirds of the people who employed hnn, and opposed to the interests of Queensland. Perba1,s not the lesser part of his offenc~ was th".t when he was a ::J.fir,ister in the St,, te he stretched the law to iw utmm . He was the father of the coercion Act. He would not dwell on that but that was the stronges: condemnation which ;night be urged against his continued occupancy of office, which was the girt of a Government of ~{ueensland kept in office by a party which had R<lffned most at his hands in timE'S gone bv. They should make a vrotest, and to hit him where men like him suffered most-that was in his pocket-he proposed that the salary of Sir Horace Tozer should be reduced by the sum of £250. They would then be able to discm,c the matter fully upon its merits, and obtain a division upon

this que<tion. He had been a'ked by [9.30 p.m.] the p~ople of hi~ district to pre~ent

a pet1t10n to object to the contmu­ance in office as Agent~General of Sir Horace Tozer, and he had reason to believe that the hon. member for \Voothakata had a!oo received a petition to the same effect. He knew that at the last Labour convention-the largest conven­tion ever held in Queensland-a resolution was passed, calling upon the Labour party to con­sider a recommendation to recall Sir Horace Tozer. He moved his amenc1ment as a protest against the "stinking fish" party, led in London by Sir Horace Tozer, and after the speech of the Premier lw was certain that their London representative should be recalled. The "stinking fish" party, which had a more or less con­crete existence in Que>=>n~land to-day, and also in the other States of A ustra!ia, had been very ably represented by a section of the Pre .. s, and they would have thought that if Sir Horace Toza wanted to do anything to discountenance the efforts of that party he would not do any· thing towards circnlatin" the !iter 'ture pub· Jished by that" stinking- fish" p,crty. If there was one papE~r that cried "'stinkiv~ fishn rnore than any other since thi:; GovennnenL ca-_ne into otfiL:-', it was the Daily .lictil. But he founrl that the

of Qur_ens!a,nd had bought 2,000 of the Dailr; },faiT and were circulating in London' through the ehief apostle

of thfl "stinking fbh" party-Sir l-Iorace Tozer. He also nw ! hat 3,000 copie,< of the C'o1<ria were sent fnr distribution, and 100 copies of SalJS-

Abnanac and severed otl"~ .:r publications. also ~aw the Governxnent was circulating

another private public·lticn-Pugh's Ahn. nac. [:i:Ir. :Fon~YTH: \Yere there any copies of Truth or the vVorke1'.] 'l.'hey could res'c assnred there

Suppl,IJ. [Ul SEPTEMBER.] Supply, 719

were no copies of the Wo1·ker sent. Even the official organ was overlooked in this c:1se. (Laughter.) Sir Horace Tozer in his spe,·ch .mid-" p,,ckPts of literature were sent out to inquirers... ].,ancy any p8rson wanting t11 coH!e to queenslnnd taking a course of reading fron1 the Daily Jfail .1 (Laughter.) \Vhy, if he did that, he woul(:-1 never desire to Cllrne to QueensR lnnd at all. He thoug-ht two :Fred .Tonesf-; might be employed for the ·,:>me salary paid to Sir Horace ·rozer, and two :Fred J oneses were worth ;;;ix Sir Horace Tozers.

The PRE~IIER hoped the hon. member for Olermont would not move the reduction of the vote by .£2,)0, because already one quarter of the financial ye:tr had gone, and •ome time mtBt elapse before the information could be conveyed to the Agent-General, and reawn<tbl0 notice would have to be given. An expre ,sion of want of confidence in the Agent-General would be achieved by moving that his salary be reduced by a smalier am"unt than the amount m1med by the hon. member. He wanted to say tlmt the hon. member for Clermont and the leader of the Oppc-;ition were in error in SU[Jposing that he had st::tted that ther,,:; -was any intention of interfering with the Agent-General. \Vhat he did eay, and in very distinct ternl', was that, so far a-; the Government were concerned, theexistingn,n·angc­Inent in London \Vonld continue pendin;; the decision of the Comrnonwer1lth Government in regard to the J{igh Conunissionership, and that, ·when the 1!-,ederal Go\·crnn1ent tnok action in that nutter, it would be wise for Queens­land to review the question of represPuta­tion in London. [Honourable members: Hear, hear !] He was one of those wh<> thought the State should be separately reprF-"ented~ in London. [Honourable m•1mbers: Hear, hear!] It was highly probable that the High Commis­sioner for the Commonwealth would be able to relieve the Queensland and the other St:ites Agents-General of some of the work they now had to do, and Queensland would be able to carry on with the services of a man there as repre­sentative who would be able to devote himself largely to the commercial side of the representa­tion of this State. [Honourable members : Hear, hear!] That he thought was the chief consideration. He thousht the hon. member for Clermont should be content with the assurance that he had given th& OommittAe in that respect. It was quite true, as the hon. member for Olerrnont said, that he had an opportunity of presenting to him (the Premier) a petition from certain of his constituents praying for the recall ot Sir Horace Tozer. He also h>td a like peti­tion from \Volfram Camp, in the electorate of the n,ember for \VrJOthakata, praying fnr the recall of Sir Ho race Tozer on the grounds that he was associated with the steps that were taken by the then Government to deal with the strike in 1891., and therefore should not be allowed to continue in the representation of the :State. He thought thrtt sufficient time had elar•,ed for that old conflict to be forgotten, [Mr. Kmm : It is not likely to be forgotten.] He had hoped '-O ; but a[Jy>arently he had hoped in vain. [2vir. Bow::HAX: You would not expect the rne-rnher for Gregory to it.l [2\lr. WooDs : l\ o ; nor anybody eJse.l wi,hed to refer tn the portion of the hon. memher fur O!ermont's sperch in which he dealt with a, sp_ 2ch delivered by Sir IIorace I\ 'Zel' in Londnn, Vv hi eh contained a rtfenmce to that gentlunan's po:.; ..... iblt:\ retire­ment from the office of Agent-Generol ,,t the end of twelve 1nonths. That '"'as the onJv reference that be had seen on the subject, and for its pub­lication Sir l-Inrace Tozer alone was re~ponsible. That was a matter which Sir Horace Tozer pro­bably thought out himself before he delivered the

speech. He had no objection to that; but he had an objection to the representative of this State in London-whoever he might be-dealing in poli­tics, particularly in party politics, whether they related to the Commonwealth or the State. [Honourable members: Hear, hear!] The Agent­General should eschew jJolitics. (Hear, hear!) He ought not to be a politician. He ought to be the rep1escntative of ail sections and of all industries in his State, and if he could say nothing good of c>is State, then he had better say nothin~< at all. But hon. members would know that Sir I-Iorace Tuzer was a very good and a Yery voluble speaker; he spoke too frequently possibly, and he po,sibly spoke too long. They tnust rt.mernber that Sir Horace Tozer was an old politician. On the spur of the moment a man might make a speech and refer to things which in his calmer moments he would see would have been better left untouched by a gentleman occupying- the poHition which he did. Sir Horace 'l'ozer made reference to matters which would have been far better left untouched, and he had told him that he should refrain from politics in future; and it would have been better for himself and better for the State also if he had refrained from politics in the past. [:\Ir. liiAGGHAN: HB bas nn affection for your Governrnent.] That was a matter that ought not to weigh very much. If Sir Horace Tozer was in all other re~pect' what they eould desire, he could forgive him for be;ng out of touch with the Government. It was claimed by the hon. mem­ber for Olermont that the Agent-General had been busying hiinself in circulating copies of the Dail!! Jfail and Courier, which the hon. member for Ulerrnont said-and no doubt believed-were distinguished members of that party to which reference had been made in the course of this debate. The copies of these journals were sent to the Agent-General in London for the purpose of advertising the industries of the State. [Mr. J. LEAHY : \Vho were they sent by?] He pre­sumed by the Government. They were copies of the special harvest numbers of the Daily Jl[ai/ and Courie-r, or they might have been mining numbers, as these journals sometimes published special numbers dealing with the principol industries of the State. [.i\lr. J. LEAHY: If the Government sent them to him it is his duty to distribute them.] They were sent to the Agent-General to make use of in advertising the State, just as arrangements were made to send a number of copies of the Q"eens­lander for circulation in the other States, and be made advantageous me of. He hoped the hon. member for Olermont would be content with him entering his protest as he had done, and that he would not persist in the propos:;l to reducH the saJary by £2,10. He could accept his as,nrance that when the Commonwealth acted in the appoint­lllent of the High Oommic ,inner he (the Premier) would review, as he had always intended to re­view, the qne;;tion "f the representation of Queens­land in London. In view of thar fact, and the opinion he had PXpre·"erl that in the character of the representc,tion they would want c-omething different in the future to what thev had in the past, the hon. rncrnber rnight 888 h'rs way to let the vote go without insisting on his mnendment.

:Mr. LESII'\ A sairl he had very mnch pleasure in accepting the Prenlier\., sug:~e~tion, but he desired tn get an expre· 3ion nf opiui~m frun1 the Go\·ernment a 01 to their policy of keepin~ Sir H<>race Tozer in office as Agent-General. The proposed l't<. __ l.uction, though a HlO' t c1ra.<;::.tic one, \V::tS the onlv one he could 1110V8 in order to accentuate a~y expreS:iion of opininn t.he Omn­mittee might feel inclined to nwke. However, his object would possibly be achieved just as well

lrfr. Lesina.]

720 Suppl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

if he simply moved a reduction of £1. 'With the pernns~ion of the Cmnmittee, therefore, he would withdraw his present motion, with the view of snbfitituting a motion that the item be reduced by £1. On that motion they C<!llld get a recordbd expression of ()pinion frorn hnn. members of the Committee on thifi subject. \Vhy did that ,.;entleman, who had a reputation for political lying in Queensland, repeat his lie,; all the time? Speaking at the Australasian In~"'rchants' annual banquet in London, on the 25th May la.st, Sir Horaee Tozur stid-

'l'here is no doubt that difficulties occur therP, a:.:. they do occur in every country. 'l'here are political di1liculties. You know I have spoken from this platform and else­where very strongly, but it is not the province of Ageuts~General to criticise the acts of their Govern­ments or the acts of Governments who are kindred with them in the work. At the same time, it is UJe provinue of Agents-General to be historians \Vithout criticising management or anything of that eharacter. I can assure you that wlmt b atfecting A,.lstralia at the present moment is not so rnuch t.he politics of this party or that party, but the llllcertainty resulting from the want of policy by either party.

That was that the Government followed by the Labour party had no policy, and the party led by the hon. me m bar for Townsville had no policy. [Tt1e PRE}I!ER: Probably he referred to federal politics.] If he did refer to federal politics there was nothing in the speech t;, show it, but in any case he had no right as a provin­cial Agent.General to arrogate to himself the right of acting as censor ovPr federal politics. Another statement he made at that banquet was as follows:-

At present you uudersttmcl that the policy is divided, or the Iig-ht which is to c •me 1s divided, between what we call out there the Liberals, or what .vou call here the RadicaJs, and the oul-cmd-mtt tsOCiaJistir, party. Xov;r, what will come of that it is ditl:icnlt to determine. The man who would provllesy from tiJJs table \VWlld either be a fool or n ft'aud; nobody can tell yet, becan~e the conclilion.s are HO dil:'similar to what have occurred in the hlstory ot' any other natwn. They have there given the suffrage not only to men, but to women. The lands at the pre~ent moment arc ocenp1ed lJy a smail nmulJer in proportion to the total number of the people in Aus­tralia. All tht,se people haTe votes. and nutit they begin to reali~c what the rcsnlL of t,hat votmg is, the possibilitif,, are that there will be circmn~tances which \VC may regret.

\Vhat were the circumstances that we might regret? .chc relctrn of the party pledged to a socialistic policy, which Sir Horace hated. Hi;sht through the v.chole of his propaganda \vork h" cried "sLinking fish," and it was about tinlG that some definite attitude was assumed to·,c ard~· ;:)ir HoretcE: 1\nor, and if the Govern­:rnent would not ,tc_.-.ume that attitude, then ti1f' House ,houlcl do so. He asked permission tc ·,,,-ithdra·.~ his 1notion, \vith the view of ::,ub­stituting a motion for a reduction of the amount by £1.

The CHAlllMAN: Is it the pleasure of the Committee that the motion be withdrawn?

::VIr. J. LEAHY baid he objected to the motion being withdrawn until he had an opportunib, of , xprc ,sing his opinion upon it, but aften. arcls l1e ould not object. He tiiGught the cours0 taken by the hon. member in withclrawing his present motion vvith the vJew of subs~ituting another ~~\-as not tho correct course to adont. After the assurance giYen by the Pren1ier,- the hon. member, even 1-cgarcling the rr1c:~tter from a strong Labour point of view, ,,ught to be satisfied. [:Mr. J~ESINA: \Vhat is tire assurance?] They under­stood very clearly, if they read between the lim '• that Sir 1:-IDrace Tozer was not going to be Ag-ent-General very long. Reading between th€ lines they could clearly see that the Go-

[ 1l1 r. Lesina.

vcrnment had made up their minds that, as soon as the Federal Government appointed a High Cornmissionur to ropr<'sont the Uom­nlun \Veaith in England, the GoYernment of C2ueensland would com.icler the question as to who ~hould r~._:present this State in London. The Premier saici it might be desirable to got a commercial m.1n more up to date than the nresent occupant of the ofr1ce. Such being the cast', the Labour paety, if ever they had a gl'uclge :-1gain _t Sir -Hcn·ace Tozer, should seo tlL't they had prr ,SeLl this matter sufficiently far. [l\lr. Lt:sJ.:L": He has never clone any­thiilg more than draw his salary.] Oh, yes; he thought Sir IToxace had done a groat deaL more than that·-·he had done good service for Queensland. The hon. member for Clermont made no secret of the fact that his motion had nothmg to do with the question as to whether Sir Horace Tozer had discharged his duties in a satisfactory manner, but that it was made bccauoe that gentleman did something eight or ten vcaro ago of which the hon. member dis­approved. That was a poor stand to tal<e in public matters. There were yery few public mcm who had not made mistakes, or done something that was ut• popular; and if they were to follow and P"rsecute a man for eig-ht or t<'n :year.'· on that account, then public life '.-.ould become intolerable. He was very sorry to find that that was the ground on which hon. members opposit0 argued that Sir Horace 'I'ozer's ."ervices shoLtld be dispensed with. If ~ir Horace was doing- good service to the State in England·~and he believed he was-­then what0ver view of politics he held should not be usecl again::;t him. \Vhatever Sir Horaco did when in oflice in Queensland, every other member of the .l\linistry of which ho was a member was reJponsible for. Questions of policy wcr,; clecidul hy the Cabinet, and every member of that Cabinet was responsible for the policy adoptee! by tbe C-1binet. Sir Horacc was a man who had a great deal of ability, and he talked very i1ucntly and volubly. He had clone some excellent work for Queensland, and though he mig-ht ha,,e ,aiel things that some membees did not "l'provc that was no reason for wholc·.ale condemnation of him as Agent­General for the ~'to.te. He might hav" talked nbout soc:ialisrn at a public dinner in England, but his object might hrtv<' been to show that socia.lisn1 had not run :'LS mad in .... 1\.ustralia as some people thought. 1\foreover, a written spl~r eh tuight pres0nt his remarks in a very different light from that in which they were regarded by the; persom who listened to his speech. At :11! event,, if the hon. member for ClPrn1ont \Vantcd _,atisfaction in regard to the ~~gent-General, he bad n1ore than ample satis­fFLction in the assurance given by the Pren1ier. If he vvas going out of office in any case, he

woulcl ask the hon. m<>mber for [10 p.m.J Clermont not to press his amend-

ment. [Hr. L ESINA: It will be a protest.] It would not be a protest, and it w"s hardly fair to cast a slur upon Sir Horace Tozer by reclucing his salary by £1. Such reductions never effeetocl any useful purpose, as it :;-~,,as impossible to ,tack on anything foreign to the vote so that it hac! any meaning. Before sitting clown, he would like to ask the Premier whethc'r it was the intention of the Government, as reported, to send any perw~ to England to assist Sir Horace Tozer in selecting per .. rms who would be suitable to sdi.le on the lands that it was proposed to rc .. sorve for people in Gnat Britain; ho :'aw no provision on the Estimates for it, but he understood it was intended to do something

Suppl,y. [13 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 721

of the sort. [The PRElliiER: The matter is being considered. It will be a charge against the general vote for immigration.] Whether a High Commissioner was appointed or not, he trusted that Queensland would still continue to have separate representation. [The PRE­)ilF:R: \Ye ''ill most certainly have represen­tation there. J It was not likely that a Queens­lander would be appointed High Commis­sioner, and, in the event of the interests of Queensland clashing with those of the State t.o which the High Commissioner belonged, the interests of C2ueensland would go down every time. (Hear, hear!) It was cheaper to pay £1,000 or £2,000 a year to have a man there who would place the interests of Queens­land before those of any other part of Aus­tralia. He certainly was not inclined to hand over anything more to the Commonwealth. He hoped the hon. member for Clermont would withdraw his amendment, and be satis­fied with the assurance the Premier had given.

Mr. KEHR wanted to put the position clearly. Apparently it was going to be put forth that the members of his party were tak­ing this course from motives of revenge. It would be a sad day for Queensland when any party was moved by a dec,ire for revenge to do certain things. [Government members: Hear, hear!] When Sir Horace Tozer was a member of that Chamber, he had occasion to differ with him as much as any member. He never believed in his policy, and thought that a great mistake was made when he was ap­pomted Agent-General. He though~ that a mistake was also made by the present Go­vernment in continuing him in office, because everyone knew that he was a bitter political parcisan. He had no scruples about the means he adopted to attain his end; and he had done things when he was in office that he was proud to think no other Ministe-r had ever done. He entered his protest against the idea that the reduction was mov,ed by ~ay of revenge. [Mr. J. LEAHY: 'The hon. member for Clermont said so.] [Mr. LESil\A: I only mentioned that as one item.] If that was the object of the hon. member, he was solely responsible for that. It was not a matter of revenge with him (Mr. Kerr). It was a matter of those who '·kowtowed" to Sir Horace Tozer had been kept in England too long; but, after what they had heard from the Pre­mier, he could readily undm·stand that it was not the intention of the Government to keep him in his present position. He was not one of those who "kow-towed" to Sir Horace Tozor during his recent visit to Queensland. He met him in the street, gave him the time of day, and passed on. He was never one of the Agent-General's admirers. It was all very well for his admirers to say that he was the only man fitted for the position, but he (Mr. Kerr) believed there were men in Queens­land-active business men-who would make better Agents-General. They did not want a politician for the office at all. A man who fol­lowed politics for any length of time was apt to sympathise with the party with which he was associated. Anyone who read Sir Horace Tozer's spe,eches in England, and especially since his return from Queensland, must come to the conclusion that he was bitterly opposed to the politics of the majority of the people of this State. That was a sufficient reason for his recall. Ho was out of svmpathy with the large majority of the people of Queensland. He agreed with the Premier, the leader of the Opposition, and the hon. member for Bulloo, as to the necessity for the State being r,epre­sented in the old country. It was not likely that a Queenslander would be appointed High

1905-2 y

Commissioner. There were so many southern aspirants for the position that it was likely a ruan from one of the southern States would receive the appointment, and, naturally, his intGrests would be more with the State from which he came, and he would be out of touch with Queensland. It would be much better that Qucensl:md should have a representative of lwr own, ancl that that representative should not be a politician. TlH' I:-lou. the leader of the Opposition said that there was a rumour going about that the Hon. tho Premier or the leader of the La.bour party was going home. \\'ell, the leader of the Labour party did not. want to go home. (Laughter.) He had been at home long enough. He came out to­Queensland, and he had no desire to leave it. He had been in most of the States of the Com­monwealth, and Queensland was the best of the lot. (Hear, hear!) He did not want·the position. L'cs the hon. member for Carpentaria said, a nice "rig" it would be i£ he put on a tall hat and a frock coat. (Laughter.) They had the very man in the person of the hon. member for Carpentaria. (Laughter.) [Mr. FoRSYTII: Not much!] The hon. member could not only speak on behalf of the com­mercial interests, which were so necessary, but he could aloe undertake the social duties Wber() would then:: be a finer-looking repre: sentative than the 11on. member-(laughter)­rlressed up in _a long tile and a long coat, with a cane and l11e gloves? They could not have a better representative. [Mr. FORSYTH: He would not take it £or £5,000 a year.] He hoped the Government would consider the hon. member when they were making the appoint­ment. (Laught"r.) [.Mr. FORSYTH: Why r_w~try the hon. mf'lnber f<;>r Clormont ?] Well, famng the hon. member tor Carpentaria the hon. member for Clermont would make a' very good repre,errtative. No doubt he would uphold the_ dig nits of the State; but he was rather afrmd the hon. member would be want­ing to go on the ContinPnt. (Laughter.) He would not want to devote so much time to the oommcrcial b'I>incss of the State. He had no de&rre to press the hon. member for Clermont to >¥ithdraw his amendment. He believed the hon. member would be bac!md up by a large number of people, not only m the Committee hue rn the country No petitions had bee~ sent to him (Mr. Kerr) from his electorate about Sir Horace Tenor, but it was time they hacl a char1ge. "\t the same time he was pro­pared to accept the statement of the Premier t\1at it was intended to recall the Agent­C,cne_ral when matters were settled about the appomtment of a High Commissioner.

'' ~\J.r. ~IACABT:\EY was sorry the hon. member for Clernwnt had not accepted the a,surance o£ the Premier that the matter would come Llp for consideration later on. Ho thought the .Premier was to some extent rcoponsible for the action of the hon. member for Cleruont, and ther'''' seemed to be much jubilation at the proposal to withdraw the Agent-Genor:tl. He thought it was a matter for regret, for although he did not know Sir Horace Toznr as. a politician, he realised his value to Queens;and, and the good work he had done for Queensland up to the present lime had been fully recognised. Ho had n1ot hinr \vhcn ho \Vas out hero on ono occasion, and reaJ his speeches frorn brnc to tilno, and \Va~ struck bv his cautious utterances in connection with Various matters .. He was very !l'plomatic, and he (Mr. -:',Iacartney) supposed that he saw from the coolness exhibited by the Ministers and the

Mr. Macartney.]

Questions. [ASSEMBLY] Agricultuml IIoldmgs Bill.

hon. member for Barcoo that it was necessary to be so. [The PREMIER: You are a dangerous friend, if you introduce that sort of thing.] Re Jid not understand what the hon. gentle­man nwant. The hon. gentleman was always ready wilh suggc ,tious of that sort, and to say, "Keep quiet." ['.i.'he PnmiiER: I said that was not the talk of a man who wants to be a friend of the AgcnL-Gencral.] He would like the hon gcni.]eman to be plainer. \Vhen a 1nan was tradncc)d in the 1-Iouse, and his actions criticised from one point of view, and apparentiy generally accepted by all on the other side of the House, he thought a member of the opposite side wouid be cowardly ii he did not get up and say so. The Premier said he was not be­friending the Agent-General by doing so, but it. was not his intention to injure him in the iilightest. He considered the speeches of the .\gent-General in the old country were jus­tined b:, the position of things generally. The Premier had made reference to Press attacks on che i"tatc and in Jotters to the old country. As far as he was concerned, he was not a party to those letters, hut it was no wonder when they had partirs in the State and Common­weaith hitting ai, certain classes, financial institution~ aTtd abdcnteo investors in particu­lar, that people on the other side of the world who had been hit should object to their treatment. If Sir Horacc Tozer thought we in Australia were suffering from te1nporary aberration, or some other form of political excitement, he might en­deavour to modify that feeling by the speeches he made, and would be able to give an excel­lent explanation if he were asked. He did not understand the Premier when he threw out suggestions that we should not find fault with politicians here, as having a bad effect on l,lueensland. He thought they were justified in pointing out utterances which tended to hurt the State in other "larts of the world. even at the risk of being reported When they found in the various States the desire there was to keep office, it was not to be wondered at that comments were made about politics and poli­ticians. He thought the hon. member for Clermont should accept the. assurance of the Premier that the matt<>r would come up for consideration later on, but the Premier to some extent had im·ited the amendment. [The PREMIER: That is quite characteristic of the hon. member.]

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The House resumed. The CHAIRi\1AN re­

ported progress, and leave was given to the Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The House aujou.rned at twenty-seven minutes past 10 o'clock.