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C-7405 to C-7406 Transcriptions
Kula, Irwin. "Fantasy and Realism in Jewish Politics: Bar Kokhba
and the Decision to Revolt." Members of the Wexner Heritage
Foundation Winter Retreat. [Houston, Tex.].
23 October 1988.
Irwin Kula:
...Jews believe, or...What’s it called? I don’t even know what
it’s called.
Attendee:
The beliefs of Judaism.
Irwin Kula:
The beliefs of Judaism. It’s a, it’s a very strange...it’s
a very strange kind of topic. ‘Cause if I asked you, uh, do Jews
have to believe anything...to be Jewish? How many people would
raise their hand and say yes? If I said – small number, it’s a
small number. If I said, Judaism is a religion of deeds, Judaism
is not a religion of faith or beliefs, how many people would
agree? Uh, that’s the most common definition of Judaism that we
have. Judaism’s deeds...And here we’re gonna do a session with
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
1
ieve, or...What’s itt cccallll ed? I don’t even k
.
liiiefs of f f JuJuJudaddaisisismmm.
liefsfss of f f Judaismmm. IIIt’t’t’sss a,a,a, iiittt’s a veeeryryry ssstran
nge kininnd dd ofofof topic. ‘C‘C‘Cauauause if I assskeeed d d you, u
ieve anythihihingngng......t.. o bbbe JJewisissh?h?h? HHHowowow many peop
hand and say yyyeseses??? IfIfIf III saiiiddd – small number
r If I said Judaism is a religion of deed
people who have committed themselves to studying, very seriously
[01:00], Jewish beliefs. And not- if there’s one dogma in the
Jewish community, it seems to me it’s the dogma that Judaism has
no dogma, what we’ll call the Dogma of Dogmalessness. It’s a
rather strange thing. If you think about it even more, most Jews
that you meet...here’s the irony. Most Jews that you meet, who
will define, will agree with this definition that Judaism really
is a religion of deeds, and it’s Christianity that’s the
religion of faith, most of those Jews don’t do the deeds that
are defined as being Jewish. Instead, what do they say when you
ask them if they’re Jewish? What do they say?
Attendee:
I feel Jewish.
Irwin Kula:
“I feel Jewish.” Okay, that may be the least sophisticated
answer. What else do they say, if they’re a little bit more
sophisticated? [02:00] “There’s something special about being
Jewish. “I have Jewish identity.” All of those things indicate
that Jews have beliefs. When someone says, “I have Jewish
identity,” but is not acting in any different way from their
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
2
, wwili l agree with tthihiisss dedefinition that JuJuda
on of deeds, and itt’s’ss CChhrh istianity that’s t
faittth,h,h, mmmosososttt ofofof ttthohohosesese JJJewsss dododon’n’n’ttt dododo ttthhe dee
as bbbeieieing JJJeeewisisish. IIInsnsnstteadaad, whwhwhaata dddo oo thththeyee say
they’re JeJJ wiwiwishs ??? Whattt do thththeyyy sssayyy???
Jeeewish.
l Jewish.””” OkOkOkayayay,,, ththth tat may bbbeee thththeee lel ast soph
t else do they sasasay,y,y, iiifff theyyy’r’r’re a little bit
ed? [02:00] “There’s something special abou
Christian neighbors, what they’re really saying is, “what
distinguishes me...”, excuse me, I have a little bit of a cold
[coughs]...What they’re really saying, is that there are some
central beliefs that distinguish me from my Christian neighbor,
even though I wear the same clothes, even though I do basically
the same things, even though I work in the same workplace...I
have some basic beliefs that distinguish me. So it’s really
ironic. The vast majority of Jews say, to be Jewish you don’t
have to believe anything special, it’s a matter of deeds. And
those same vast majority of Jews say [03:00] that what
distinguishes them as Jews is Jewish identity, is their beliefs.
Do you see the paradox? Everybody see that? It’s a very, seems
to me a very strange thing.
Alright, so the first thing we have to ask ourselves is,
where did this whole idea that Judaism has no beliefs, or to be
Jewish doesn’t necessitate any particular Jewish beliefs come
from? ‘Cause I’m gonna question the whole hypothesis, and by the
end of today, by the end of these two or three hours, what we’re
going see is that there are some real central beliefs that
underlie everything we do as Jews. And to the extent that we
don’t determine what those are, and articulate them, we’re gonna
be in a lot of trouble.
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
3
asiic c beliefs that ddisisstitt ngnguish me. So it’s’s r
vast majority of JJJewwwsss say, to be Jewish yo
ieve anananytytythihihingngng ssspepepecicicialalal, it’s’ss aaa mmmatatatteteterrr oof dee
vast mamamajojj riririttyt ooof Jeeewswsws sayaay [030303:00]0]0] thahahattt what
es them aaasss JeJeJewsww iiis Jeeewiww sh iiideentntntittty,y,y, is thei
thhhe paradadadoxoxox??? EvEvEverererybyy ododody y y seeeeee thththatatat? ItItIt’s a vver
y strangeee ttthiiinggg.
t, so the fffiririrstss ttthihihingngng wwweee hahahaveee tttooo ask ourrrsel
his wwwholelele idea thththatatat JJJudududaiaiaismsmsm has no bebebeliliiefs,
n’t necccesesessisisitatt te any ppparararticular Jeeewiiishshsh belie
e I’m gonnanana qqqueueuestss ioii n thththe whwhwholololeee hyhyhypothesis,
y, by the end ooofff thththeseseseee two ooror three hours,
s that there are some real central beliefs
Okay, so where did it all come from? Any suggestions on
where this notion that Judaism is a religion of deeds and
Christianity is the religion of faith, any ideas where that came
from? [04:00] And we’ve all said it. I mean, I was a pulpit
rabbi for six years and there were a lot of times, I am a
philosopher and a closet theologian, lot of times got up and
said, “relig- Judaism really emphasizes deeds.” Knowing that
that wasn’t really true. Some where does it come from? [name]?
Attendee:
Maybe it starts, uh, from the origin of Christianity, that
ultimate salvation comes from believing the right things, and
that if you think right, believe right, even at the very last
minute, even if they were a rotten person their entire life, if
you believe and repent at the very end you get the ultimate
reward. I don’t think that...so that’s how Christianity, in some
ways, defines itself.
Irwin Kula:
And so?
Attendee:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
4
g- JuJ daism really eemppphahah sisizes deeds.” Knowowin
really true. Some whwhheeere does it come from?
it startsss,,, uhuhuh,,, frfrfrom ttthehh oriririginnn offf Christian
lvvvation cccomomomeees fffrororom mm bebebelililievvvinining gg ththhee ririright thhin
ttht ink riiighhht,,, bbbelllieieieveveve rrrigigighhht,,, eeeveeen at the ve
n iiif they wwwererere ee aaa rororottttttenenen pppererersooonnn tttheir enttitire
and dd repepepent at thththe veveveryryry endndnd you gettt ttthehehe ult
on’t ththhinininkkk thtt at...sooo thththat’s how CCChrrrisisistianit
es itselff.
And Judaism does not work that way.
Irwin Kula:
Okay. I think that you’ve hit something very important, and
that is one of the reasons that this has been such a prevalent
way of defining Jews, especially for us, is that it was [05:00]
one of the ways that distinguish us from Christianity. In some
sense, we had the understanding that Christianity was a religion
of faith, because they did away with a lot of the laws, and so,
and as a way to distinguish ourselves, we were a religion of
deeds. We acted. Okay. Although you should know that my, that
it’s codified by Maimonides already that you can be the worst
sonofabitch in your whole life, and if you repent a moment
before you’re dead, [claps hands] everything’s fine. Now, what
does that sound like? Sounds like Christianity. Just goes to
show that, see the sources that are somewhat like Christianity
we hide from you, and sources that point out the differences,
those are the ones we all know.
So yes, Shel, you’re right, hundred percent. One of the
reasons is this need to distinguish ourselves from Christianity.
Good. Joe?
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
5
wayyss that distinguiuishhh uss from Christianitity.
ad the understanding thtthat Christianity was
ecaussseee thththeyeyey dddididid aaawawawayyy wiwiwith aaa lllototot ooof ff thththee laws
y to dididistinininggguisisish ouuursrsrseelvevves, wwweee wewewererr aaa relig
cted. Okaaayy.y AAAltll hohohough yyyou shshshouuldldld kkknonn w that m
eddd by Maiaiaimomomoninnidededesss alaa rerereadadady thththatatat yyyououou cccan be th
iiin your whhhollle liiifefefe, anananddd iiif yooou reeepent a mo
re dead, [ccclalalapspp hhhananandsdsds] eveveverereryttthihihinnng’s fineee. N
ound dd likekeke? Soundsdsds lllikikikeee ChChChriiistianityyy... JuJuJust g
see thehee sssououourcrr es thattt ararare somewhattt lllikikike Chri
m you, and dd sososourururcecc s ththth tat poioiintntnt oooututut the diffe
he ones we alll knknknowowow...
Shel you’re right hundred percent One
Attendee:
Well, the Biblical references, you know of uh, of uh,
[06:00] taking care of the needy, leading the foreign appeal,
and uh...[unclear] There’s all kind of uh, you the
basis...[unclear]
Irwin Kula:
Okay, there seem to be so many, I think if I can rephrase,
there seem to be so many laws within the Bible that it was
natural for us to begin to think that we were a religion of laws
and deeds rather than a religion of beliefs. Does that sound...?
Attendee:
I’m not sure that I’d agree “rather than,” but...
Irwin Kula:
More primary than, right? Primary.
Attendee:
I’m not sure...I haven’t thought about it in the sense
that...there’s plenty of references to the need to do good deeds
in the Bible. And I don’t know...
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
6
there seem to be so mmmaaany, I think if I can
to beee sssooo mamamanynyny lllawawawsss wiwiwithththin ttthehehe BBBibibiblelele ttthhat it
us ttooo bebb gigiginnn tototo thiiinknknk thahhat wewewe wererere ee aaa rerr ligi
ather thaaannn aa rerr lililigionnn of bebebeliefefefs.. Does that
t sssure thattt III’d’’ aaagrgrgreeeeee “““rararathththerrr ttthhhan,” buttt...
rimary thhananan, riririghgg t?t?t PP iirimaryryry...
Irwin Kula:
Okay. Any references to beliefs in the Bible?
Attendee:
Why isn’t that a belief?
Irwin Kula:
Good! That the whole need to do deeds is already underlined
by a belief. Okay, how many people agree with that? Yeah, that’s
really...[07:00] if we can get, if there’s one thing that we can
get across today, if there’s one thing I can get across today,
it’s that all systems have as its base certain beliefs out of
which the system emerges and which power the system, even if
it’s a system that’s predominately an active system, of deeds,
rather than a faith-oriented internal system. So you’re a
hundred percent right. And after all everything I’ve said in the
last day, about prayer and all that kind of stuff, I said we see
what we...is that what I said? We see what we believe. Right? We
come to the world with a whole set of beliefs, and then we see
things and integrate them into that belief pattern. Right? The
people saw the Exodus, the people experienced an event, but what
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
7
That thththeee whwhwhololole e e neneneededed tttooo do dddeeeeeedsdsds iiisss alalalrready
. Okaaay,y,y, howowow mananany peeeopopoplle aagreeeeee wititith hh thththataa ? Ye
7:00] if weww cccanaa ggget, ifii theheheree’s’s’s ooonenn thing t
toooday, ififif ttthehhererere’s’s’s onenene ttthiiingngng III cccananan ggget acrros
llll systemmms haaaveee aaasss itititsss bababassse ceeertatataiiin belieeefs
ystttem emergggeseses andndnd whihihichchch pppowowowerrr ttthhhe systemmm, e
em ththhat’s’s’s predomimm nananatetetelylyly an active sssysysystetetem, o
a faititth-h-h-orororieii nted intntntererernal systemmm. SoSoSo you’r
cent righht.t.t. AAAndndnd aftftfter allllll eeeveveveryryrythththini g I’ve s
bout prayer andndd aaallllll ttthahahat kiiindndnd of stuff, I s
s that what I said? We see what we believe
they saw was very conditioned by what they believed. They
believed God could act in history, [08:00] therefore at the
Exodus what they saw was God acting in history. If you had
someone else standing at the Exodus, who did not already believe
that God could act in history, which by the way was most of the
pagan cults, that God didn’t act in history, you wouldn’t have
seen God taking you across the Red Sea. So what you believe
conditions, is, really determines what you see.
We studied Kaufman yesterday, Kauf- we only read one
chapter of Kaufman, but the whole two books of Kaufman make one
argument...funny when Herb says he “hammers it in”...should read
too volumes in Hebrew where he hammers one idea in something
like eight hundred pages, and there’s only one idea in the whole
book. I mean, you know, there’re always others, but there’s only
really major proposition, and that is, what is unique about
Judaism, created by Moses, is this notion, this crazy [09:00]
notion of monotheism, or ethical monotheism. Is that a belief or
an action? So the entire Kaufman book is dedicated to proving
that what is unique about Jews is one belief. Pretty wild.
Okay. So, we have, one of the reasons we have this notion
of religion-of-deeds, religion-of-belief, is distinguish us from
Christianity; one of the reasons is that there, there has been,
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
8
kinng g you across thehe RRRedede SSea. So what youu be
is, really determineeesss what you see.
died KaKaKaufufufmamamannn yeyeyestststerererdadaday,y,y, Kauauauf-f-f- wwweee onononlylyly read
Kaufmmmananan, bububuttt thththe whhholololee twttwo bobobooooksss ofoo KKKauaa fman
funny wheeennn HeHeHerbrr sssays hehh “hahahammmmererers itii in”...s
iiin Hebrererewww whwwhererereee hehh hhhamamammeeersrsrs oooneee iiidededea in ssom
huuundred pppagggesss, annndd d thththererere’e’e’sss ooonllyl onnne idea in
n, you knowww,,, thtt ererre’e’e’rerere aaalwlwlwayayays ototothhhers, buttt th
r prorooposisisition, ananand d d thththatatat iiis,s,s, what isss uuunininique
eated bbby y y MoMoMosess s, is thththisisis notion, ttthiiisss crazy
onotheism, ororor eeethtt icii llal monotottheheheisisism.m.m. Is that a
So the entire KKKauauaufmfmfmananan bbbook isisis dedicated to
s unique about Jews is one belief Pretty w
there seems to be when we read the Bible, we concentrate on the
time of deeds. We’re now seeing the beliefs that are under even
that understanding of deeds, what I’ll call a theology of deeds,
okay, or a belief system that’s, undergird, or [unclear], or
foundational to deeds. Any other possibilities?
Attendee:
Well we do use the word [unclear], and I, I think the
reason [unclear]...but I’m not actually sure that [10:00] it’s
not [unclear]...when we, when we study, whatever it is we study,
at whatever level we study...and then there [unclear; speaker
distant, becomes difficult to hear]...so that when we learn, as
we grow in understanding...how to be Jewish...I think
that...from lighting candles
Irwin Kula:
Okay, so what you’re saying really w- a pedagogic. The Jews
developed a pedagogic technique, that rather than concentrating
on beliefs first, we would concentrate on actions [11:00] and
hopefully from act- even though all those actions, as you say,
have as a foundation a very serious belief system, by
concentrating on action we come to understand what we’re
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
9
e do use the word [unnnclcclear], and I, I think
lear].....b.b.bututut III’m’m’m nnnototot aaactctctualllllly yy sususurerere ttthahahatt [10:
r]...whwhwhen wwweee, wwwhen wewewe stuttudy,,, wwwhatatatevee ererer it is
level weee stututudydd .....anddd thennn thhererere [u[u[ nclear;
cooomes difififfifificccultltlt tttooo heheheararar].....sososo ttthahahattt when wwe
unndn erstannndiiinggg.....hhhowowow tttooo bebebe Jeeewiiish.h.h....I thinnnk
liiighting cccananandldd esess
so what yououou’r’r’re ee sass yiiing reallllly y y w-w-w- aaa pedagogic
pedagogic techchhnininiququque,e,e, ttthat rrarather than conc
first we would concentrate on actions [11:
supposed to believe, rather than concentrating on belief. I
think that that is a very important distinction between Judaism
and Christianity. Okay? A pedagogical approach, in a sense, to
life. Right? Rather than start with beliefs, start with actions,
but get to beliefs [unclear]...and rather than, as opposed to
Christianity, which says start with a creed, a dogma, a set of
beliefs that you can at least, even if you know only by rote,
their reasoning is that it will affect your actions. By the way,
we have a misunderstanding of Christianity. In Christianity,
doesn’t have works. Faith and works are equally important in
Christianity. And if you hear a good Christian preacher, they
will, as much as they’ll talk about faith, they’ll talk about
the implications that faith has towards actions. [12:00] We do
it, we take the opposite pedagogical approach, and we say if you
do the right act, it’s amazing what you’ll come to believe.
Okay, so I think that’s good, that pedagogical approach is maybe
the difference in emphasis. Good.
Attendee:
I think one of the things, uh, to use the example of
Shabbat, because of the last, one of the last readings [unclear;
distant and obscured by background movement]...how so much of
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
10
t yyouo can at least,t, eeevevv n n if you know onlyly b
ning is that it willl afaafffef ct your actions. B
isunddderererstststananandididingngng ooof ff ChChChririristiaiaianininitytyty. InInIn CCChhristi
e worrksksks. FaFaFaiiithhh and wowoworrkss areee eeequauauallll y yy imii port
y. And ifff yououou heaeaear a gggood CCChrrisisistiiianaa preache
chhh as thehehey’y’y’lllll tttalalalk kk abababououout fafafaititith,h,, ttthehehey’ll ttal
tiiions thaaat faaaittth hahahasss tototowaaarrrdsss aaactititiooons. [1222:0
thhhe opposiiitetete pedededagagagogogogicicicalalal aaapppprororoaaach, and we
t actctt, ititit’s amazizz ngngng wwwhahahattt yoyoyou’ll commmeee tototo bel
think ttthahahat’t’t’sss good, thththatatat pedagogicccalll aapproac
nce in emphphphasasasisisis... GoGG ddod.
your life is Shabbat. [unclear] You can talk all you want about
Shabbat, but if you don’t do it, it’s irrelevant. But if you
talk about Shabbat and talk about the laws of Shabbat and spend
the day at the mall, or working, it’s irrelevant. You don’t have
the, that period of Shabbat. If so, the issue of...of...the
concept of Shabbat is making it a habit of it, [13:00] and by
making habit of it then you can understand what it’s about.
Irwin Kula:
Okay, that’s, that’s a similar point. Okay. That you can’t
get to the understanding, you can’t get to the beliefs, without
the acting. But the acting is a concretization of the beliefs,
not the other way around. Right? When you read, when you read
about the Shabbat in the Torah, what you read about is the
belief system that undergirds the Shabbat, and if there wasn’t a
belief system underneath girding the Shabbat, what would have?
Would anybody observe Shabbat? In fact, it may well be that one
of the reasons in the American Jewish community there’s such
little observance of Shabbat, is because since we haven’t
plugged into the beliefs and understandings of Shabbat at all,
or that most of those beliefs are out, we no longer feel
comfortable with...there’s no observance of Shabbat. So we may
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
11
t oof f it then you cacan unuu dederstand what it’s’s a
that’s,s,s, thahahattt’sss a siiimimimillarrr poininintt.t OOOkakk y.y.y. That
understannndidd ngngng,,, yoyoyou caaan’nn t gegeget tototo ttthehh beliefs
BBBut theee acacactittingngng iiisss aaa cococoncccrereretititizaaatititionnn of thhe
errr way arrrouuunddd. Riiighghght?t?t? WWWhehehennn yyyouuu rrreaada , whennn y
habbbbat in ttthehehe Torororahahah, whwhwhatatat yyyouuu rrreeead abouttt is
em ththhat uuundergiiirdrdrds thththeee ShShShabababbbbat, anddd iiif f f ther
em undedeernrnrneaeaeathtt girdingngng ttthe Shabbattt, whwhwhat wou
dy observeee ShShShabababbabb t?t?t IIn fffactctt,,, ititit mmmay well be
ons in the Amerrricicicananan JJJewewewish ccocommunity there’
rvance of Shabbat is because since we have
have been in a position now where it’s counterproductive to be
teaching deeds over faith. Fred? [14:00]
Attendee:
Well, maybe we’re getting into semantics, and maybe this
goes back to the original premise of dogma versus, uh, belief,
but I would, I would violently disagree with, uh, with with
Ron’s, what Ron has said [unclear]… [audience laughter]
Irwin Kula:
He has a possible understanding of violence.
Attendee:
Uh, well, b- because I mean, if, if Shabbat is dogma, then
the was that uh, uh, Joe Williams practices Shabbat or the way
that I practice Shabbat or, uh, uh, according to what Ron just
said is the total non-belief in Shabbat, and I don’t believe
that. I mean, I think Shabbat is important to me the way that I
practice it as it is to Ron the way he does or anybody else
[unclear]. I think that [unclear] dogma, then, then way
we...[unclear] [15:00]...I believe Shabbat’s very
important...[unclear]
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
12
, II would violentlyly dddisii agagree with, uh, wiwith
Ron has said [uncleaaar]rr]… [audience laughter
a possibbblell uuundnn erererstannndidd ng ooof viviviolllenee ce.
ll,, b- becaaausususe ee III mememeananan, ififif,,, ifff SSShhhabbat isss do
t uh,h,, uh,h,h, Joe WWWilii lililiamamamsss prprpracacactttices Shhhabababbababat or
tice ShShhabababbababattt or, uh,,, uhuhuh, accordinnng tototo what
total non-n-n-bebebelililiefee iiin ShShSh bbabbababat,t,t, aaandndnd I don’t b
n, I think Shababbbababattt isisis iiimporrrtatatant to me the w
as it is to Ron the way he does or anybody
Irwin Kula:
Okay. Let’s clarify terms. It looks like that we need to
clarify terms. Language, we always have to be very precise about
language. This is what, from the Oxford English Dictionary,
it’s, you know, that’s a pretty good source, on what dogma
means. There’s two definitions of dogma, primarily. One is “a
body of opinion formulated and authoritatively,” and that’s the
key word there, authoritatively, “authoritatively stated.” Okay.
Another definition of dogma is a belief, a tenet. Now, this type
of dogma we Jews don’t have. Why?
[indistinct voice from audience]
Irwin Kula:
[laughs] We don’t have a single authority. That’s the only
reason. [16:00] In fact, we have a body of opinion formulated
and stated, from the Biblical times till last year, at least in
the Conservative Movement. They published a book called what?
Anybody know? Emet V’Emunah. What’s emet? Truth, right. Truth is
an action, truth is a belief word. Truth and emunah? Faith.
Truth and Belief, really that’s what they call it. Truth and
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
13
e’ss two definitionsns ooofff dodogma, primarilyy.. On
nion formulated anddd aaautuuthhoh ritatively,” and t
ere, auauauthththorororitititatatativivivelelely,y,y, “““authththorororitititatatativivivelelelyy stat
initiononon offf dddogmgmgma isss aaa beleelief,f,f, a tttenee etetet.. Now,
Jews donnn’t hhhavaa e.e.e. Whyyy???
vvvoice frrrommm aaaudddieeencncnce]e]e]
s] We dddononon’t’t’t have a sisisingngngle authoriiityyy... That’s
:00] In ffacacacttt, wwweee hahh ve a bbbododdy y y ofofof ooopinion for
from the Bibliliicacacalll tititimememes tiiillllll last year, at
ative Movement They published a book calle
Belief! Here in an age where we talk about Jews as Jews,
religion of deeds not religion of faith, the Conservative
movement publishes a book [woman whispering near microphone], ah
book, it’s a pamphlet, called...Belief, Truth and Belief. Okay,
so we have plenty of body of opinion, formulated statement; we
have beliefs and tenets. The only problem is, we don’t have any
authorities. By the way, you can bet your life that if we ever
had a society in [17:00] which we did have one authority, we
would have as much dogma in this sense as the Catholic Church.
Just look at the State of Israel when it has a chief rabbi,
right?
Why is a Conservative conversion, or a Reform conversion,
done exactly according to Orthodox law, considering [unclear]?
[voice from audience]. Why? Why? The fact that conversion
[unclear; noise from moving microphone]...a rabbi. [unclear]
says, you don’t need a rabbi for conversion. [voice from
audience]. No, do you know what? If you talk to Orthodox rabbis,
do you know what the answer they will give you? It’s because if
you, if I do a conversion, I live traditionally [18:00],
halakhically, and if you taught a Reform rabbi who lives the
same, according to an Orthodox halakhah, and who converts
according to halahkah with, making sure that the person’s
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
14
. BBy y the way, you ccannn betet your life thatt if
ty in [17:00] whichhh wwweee dddid have one authori
as muuuchchch dddogogogmamama iiinnn thththisisis sssensesese aaasss thththee e CaCaCattholic
t thee SSStatetete offf Israaaelelel whehhen ititit hasasas a ccchihh ef r
aaa Consererervavavatittiveveve ccconoo veveversrsrsiooon,n,n, ooor aaa ReReReform ccon
y accordiiinggg ttto Orrrthththodododoxoxox lllaaaw,,, ccconnnsiiidering [u
auuudience]. WWWhyhh ??? WhWhWhy?y?y? TTThehehe fffacccttt ttthat convvvers
oise fromomom movinggg mimiicrcrcropopophohohonenene]]]...a raaabbbbbbi.i.i. [un
on’t neeeededed aaa rabbi fororor ccconversion. [[[vovovoice fr
No, do youuu knknknowowow whahh t?t? IIfff yoyoyou u u tatatalklklk to Orthod
what the answeeerrr thththeyeyey wwwill gigigive you? It’s b
o a conversion I live traditionally [18:00
kosher, making sure let’s say, even, the person doesn’t drive to
shul the person is in shul every Shabbos, and all the things
that would be...let’s say it was an Orthodox kind of everything,
the reason it’s not is because of the belief of Torah from
Sinai. If you don’t believe Torah is from Sinai, you can’t be a
witness within the Orthodox community today. That’s a what,
belief or an action? That’s, that’s belief.
And I told you about Conservative Judaism and Emet
V’Emunah, so they clearly are uh, very concerned about beliefs.
The whole book is about beliefs. And Reform Judaism, and when
you look at the beginnings of Reform Judaism, Reform Judaism
almost adopted a church-like kind of formulation [19:00] of what
Judaism was and all of its platforms. They put out creedal
statements...
So here we are talking about Judaism as a religion of
deeds, and all around us, since Biblical times, what’s really,
what we really argued about, and what really has distinguished
us, is what we believe... Ask Elijah, when he killed two hundred
fallen prophets, what was important, beliefs or actions.
[Pauses] What about the tension between monarchy and prophets?
That was about beliefs. Or 1st Century Judaism, Sadducees and
Pharisees, they killed each other, over what? They were living
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
15
n aactc ion? That’s, tthahaat’tt ss belief.
told you about Conserrrvvvatttive Judaism and Eme
o theeeyy y clclcleaeaearlrlrly y y ararareee uhuhuh, veryryry ccconononcececernrnrnededed about
ook isss aba ouououttt bebebeliefffs.s.s Andnnd RRRefefefooormmm JuJJ dadadaisii m, a
the begiiinnnn ininngsgg ooof Reeefoff rm JJJudddaiaiaismmm, Reform J
teeed a chuhuhurcrcrch-hh-lililikekeke kininindd d offf fffororormuuulalaatitition [199:0
aaand all offf iiitsss ppplalalatftftfororormsmsms.. TTTheeey puutu out cccre
..
re wweee arrre ee talkinining g g abababouououttt JuJudadadaism as aaa rrreeeligi
all aroooununundd d usuu , sinceee BiBiBiblical timmmesss,,, what’s
lly argued dd abababououout,tt a ddnd whhhatt rererealalallylyly has disti
we believe... AsAsAsk kk ElElElijijijah, whwhwhen he killed t
hets what was important beliefs or action
basically the same way, [20:00] but one group believed in
freedom of will, the other one believed in fate. One group
believed in resurrection, the other group believed no
resurrection. One group believed in a hereafter, the other group
didn’t believe in a hereafter. So they killed each other...
What about Kabbalists, who talk about God in the most
passionately sexual terms...and anti-Kabbalists, who lived
exactly the same way? What about Hasidim [unclear]...who
actually jailed each other, using the secular authorities,
because of belief differences...which obviously did have action
implications. And of course [unclear] concern of Orthodoxy, but
what about Maimonides himself, who we’re gonna study in a little
bit? [21:00] D’you know, we don’t recognize that Maimonides
books were burned in his time. The book of ideas, the Moreh
Nevukhim, The Guide for the Perplexed, by the way that was, The
Guide for the Perplexed, a perplexed is somebody who is
confused, nevukhim literally means ‘confused’. What are you
confused about? You’re confused in your mind about what to
believe. So he writes this whole book about what you’re supposed
to believe, and in fact – he says, he writes another book for
what you’re supposed to do, called the Mishneh Torah. Okay, so
he writes two books: one an action book, and one a...philosophy,
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
16
y ssexe ual terms...anand d anaa titi-Kabbalists, whoho l
same way? What aboututt HHasidim [unclear]...w
iled eaeaeachchch ooothththererer,,, usususinining g g theee sesesecucuculalalarr r auauautthorit
belieefff did ffffffeeerenenences......wwhicich obobobvvviouououslss y yy didd d ha
s. And offf cououoursrr eee [unccclell ar]]] cooncncncerrrn nn of Ortho
Maaaimonidededesss hihhimsmsmselelelf,ff wwwhohoho wwwe’e’e’rerere gggonononnaaa studyy i
] D’you kkknooow,,, wwwe dododon’n’n’ttt reeecccogggniiizeee ttht at Maiiimo
burrrned in hhhisisis timimime.ee TTThehehe bbbooooook ofofof ideas, tththe
he GuGuGuide ee for thhhe ee PePePerprprplelelexexexedd,,, by the wwwayayay that
he Perprpplelelexexexeddd, a perppplelelexexx d is someeebododody y who i
evukhim litititerereralalallyll means ‘‘‘cooonfnfnfusususededed’.’ What arm
out? You’re connnfufufusesesed d d ininin youuurrr mind about wha
he writes this whole book about what you’r
belief book, although, you should know, even that dichotomy is
not fair, because in the introduction to his action book, the
whole first part, is on beliefs, and he says, a person who is
the worst person in the world, who believes the right things, is
still within the commandment... [22:00] he’s just called a
sinner in Israel. A person who does the right things, in other
words does the mitzvot, but doesn’t have the beliefs...can be an
idolater. Sound Jewish to you?
What about Philo, who lived in 20 CE? Writes a whole book
about beliefs. What about Mordecai Kaplan, you know what they
did to his books? Take a guess, we always do it to books we
[unclear]. Burned Morderchai Kaplan’s books. Until Mordecai
Kaplan was [unclear]. Now he was the founder of Young Israel,
you know that? That Mordecai Kaplan was the founder of the Young
Israel Movement in this country? We don’t, we don’t talk about
it that too much, because it’s not nice to think of a heretic as
the founder of Orthodoxy, modern Orthodoxy, [23:00] the modern
Orthodoxy, congregational movement. Now he did leave that after
a while, because his beliefs...because his beliefs, not his
actions. I had the opportunity of visiting Mordecai Kaplan when
he was 99 years old, got in with somebody who was one of my
teachers. Mordecai Kaplan’s home was an Orthodox home. Mordecai
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
17
thee mitzvot, but dodoesssn’nn t t have the beliefsfs..
ound Jewish to you?
bout PhPhPhilililo,o,o, wwwhohoho lllivivivededed iiin 202020 CCCE?E?E? WWWririritetetess a wh
fs. WWhahahat abababoooutt t Mordddecececaai KKaplalalannn, yyyouoo kkknonn w wh
books? Taaakekk aaa gueueuess, wwwe alwlwlwayyysss dooo it to boo
Buuurned MoMoMordrdrdeeerchchchaiaiai Kapapaplalalan’sss bobobookokks... UUUntil MMor
[uuunclear]]]. Nooow heee wwasasas ttthehehe fooounndn eeer of Younnng
at??? That Mooordrdrdecee aiaiai KKKapapaplalalannn wawawas thththeee founderrr of
ment t in ttthis counununtrtrtry?y?y? WWWee dododon’t, we dododon’n’n’t ta
much, bebebecacacausuu e it’s nnnototot nice to ttthiiinknknk of a
of Orthodododoxyxyxy, mmom dedd rn OO trthohohodododoxyxyxy,,, [23:00] th
congregationall momomovevevememementntnt. Nooowww he did leave t
cause his beliefs because his beliefs no
Kaplan’s brain was not an Orthodox brain. [Indistinct female
voice from audience] His grandson was [unclear]. So ask
me...[woman continues] ask! Books burned.
So I got a feeling that beliefs have been very important to
Jews. We killed each other over beliefs.
Attendee:
But perhaps the only time that we really got into trying to
look for the beliefs at the underpinning of our religion is
[speaker distant from microphone; unclear]...
Irwin Kula:
[24:00] Beautiful. Okay. Now we have to ask the question.
If I just sho- by the way, we forgot a very important character,
Spinoza. Right, I think that if we had Spinoza back here, and
maybe put him in the middle, since he’s used to being under
attack, if we put Spinoza in the middle and said, “are beliefs
in important?” Chances are Spinoza who excommunic- from his
commun- ex...excommunicated from the community w- would say,
“oy, are beliefs important to these people!” I think your
point’s very well taken. Gotta ask a question: When has the
agitation about beliefs been most at the forefront? Twenty years
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
18
rhaps the only time ttthahhatt t we really got into
e belllieieiefsfsfs aaattt thththeee ununundedederprprpinnininingngng ooofff ououourrr rreligi
stantt fffrommm mmmicrcrcrophooonenene;; unuuncleaeaear]........
] Beautifffulll. Okkkayyy. NoNoNow ww weee haaaveee tototo ask theee q
ho--- by the wawaway,yy wwweee fofoforgrgrgototot aaa vvverereryyy importaaant
ght, I thththink thhhatatat iiifff wewewe hhhadadad Spinozaaa bbbacacack he
im in ttthehehe mmmidii dle, sininincecece he’s useddd tttooo being
we put Spinininozozoza aa inii tthhhe midididdldldleee ananand d d said, “are
t?” Chances areee SSSpipipinononozazaza whooo eexcommunic- fro
excommunicated from the community w- woul
ago, right, none of you would be in a room agitating about
beliefs, and I don’t mean you, but your parents, who were active
in the Jewish community, and let’s say and who were even, and
who worked for the Jewish community, would not be agitated about
beliefs to the same extent we are now. Let’s ask: when are we
most agitated [25:00] about our beliefs? Now, one answer, and
it’s a hundred percent correct, when we are involved in a
society around us, when the society is very open to us, and when
we’re challenged both intellectually and religiously from
cultures around us, we have a tendency to develop and articulate
our beliefs, i.e. what distinguishes us.
And all of those characters that I mentioned lived in
periods like that. Philo lived in the midst of an unbelievable
Hellenistic environment. Hellenist, Hellenism, think of
Hellenism in that period as Americanism now. It’s the Western
Civilization of its day. It was cosmopolitan and it was
wonderful and it was art- and, and the best architecture, and
the best philosophy, and the best music, and the best science,
it was everything. So Philo was confronted by the intellectual
and spiritual challenges and so articulated a set of beliefs.
He, by the way, he narrowed down Judaism to five beliefs that
[26:00] all Jews have to have.
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
19
redd percent correctct, whwhw enen we are involveded i
und us, when the sociciieteety is very open to us
engeddd bbbototothhh ininintetetellllllececectututualalally aaandndnd rrreleleligigigioioiouusly f
ound ususus, wewewe havavave a tetetenndeneency tttooo dededevevv lololop pp and
, i.e. whhhataa dddisii tititinguiiishss es uuus.
l of thooosesese ccchahaarararactctcterrrsss thtt atatat III menenentittionoo ed liive
e that. PPPhiiilooo lllivvvededed iiinnn thththeee mmmiddsd ttt oofo an unnnbe
ennnvironmennnt.t.t. Helelellelelenininiststst, HeHeHelllleneneniiism, thinnknk o
n thahaat pepeperiod asss AmAmererericicicanananisisismmm now. IIIt’t’t’sss the
n of itittsss dadaday.yy It wasss cococosmopolitannn aaandndnd it wa
nd it was aaartrtrt- anaa d,dd a ddnd tthehehe bbbesesesttt architectu
ilosophy, and ttthehehe bbbesesesttt musiiicc,c, and the best
ything So Philo was confronted by the inte
Okay, so I think that’s one answer. And Maimonides, the
same thing. Maimonides would never have written that book if it
wasn’t that he was challenged by the kalaam, k-a-l-a-a-m, the
kalaam was Moslem philosophy. That’s a, that’s not fair exactly,
but that’s a simple way to look at it, Moslem religious
philosophy, which was very creative, which was very challenging,
and he lived in a society in which, at least, when he got to
Egypt it was pretty open. I mean, the guy became the doctor to
the Sultan, you know, that’s better than Kissinger. You know, he
got to see the king naked, he probed him [audience laughter], he
was pretty vulnerable...Only Lyndon LaRouche thinks that
Kissinger got to do that [laughs; audience laughter]. [27:00]
All of these characters, Mordecai Kaplan too. Mordecai
Kaplan lived in an age in which...Mordecai Kaplan [noise in
microphone] always worried when that happens...but Kaplan lived
in an age in which society was becoming incredibly open in
America. The challenge is, our philosophy...It’s stimulating to
think about what Judaism really should be. So yes, that’s a
very, very important point. At all times of interaction there is
this worrying about what beliefs we have, okay? Any other
possibilities?
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
20
d iin n a society in wwhihiichchc , at least, when hhe
s pretty open. I meannn,,, ttht e guy became the d
you knknknowowow,,, thththatatat’s’s’s bbbetetetteteter thththananan KKKisisissisisingngngeer. Yo
the kkkinining gg nananakkked,d,d, he prprproobedeed hhimimim [auauaudidd enenencecc lau
vulnerabllle.ee ...OnOO lylyly Lynnndodd n LaLaLaRooucucucheee thinks th
ottt to dooo thththatatat [[[lalalauguu hshshs; auuudididienenenceee lllauuughter].
ttht ese chhharrracccteeersss,,, MoMoMordrdrdecccaaai Kaaaplalalannn too. MMMor
d iiin an ageee iiin nn whwhwhicicichhh...MoMoMordrdrdecccaiaiai Kaplan [[n[noi
alwawaays wwworrieddd whehehennn thththatatat hhhappens....b.b.bututut Kap
n whichchh sssocococieii ty was bbbecececoming incrrredddibibibly ope
e challengegege iiis,s,s, our phihihilllosooophphphy.y.y.....ItI ’s stimu
what Judaism rrreaeaeallllllyyy shshshoulddd bbbe. So yes, tha
important point At all times of interactio
Attendee:
It really seems to me that, notwithstanding the examples
that are cited and the dogma here, and the modern day ones that
you cited, the centralized opinion of Jewish life up until
modern times has been the Talmud and applying the [28:00] Talmud
to everyday life. The central [unclear] has not been the
recitation of the Canon [unclear] that we must subscribe to
[Irwin Kula: Right.]. And the Talmud spends the majority of its
time dealing with how to practice. Yes some of it in matters of
rituals, but a good deal of it in matters of everyday life,
commerce, how to interact with other people. And very little
time is spent in it talking about the belief in God as the
central, even the [unclear] beliefs [unclear]. What usually
defines, you know, what we need to do, who was righteous in
terms of being [unclear] more than anything else.
Irwin Kula:
Okay. Jacob Neusner, who was one of the founding, he’ll go
down in history as one of the greatest scholars of the latter
half of the 20th century, ‘cause he’s setting the agenda of what
questions to ask about Jewish texts, will say to you, that’s
because you have studied the Talmud with people who have
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
21
of tht e Canon [unclelearrr]]] ththat we must subscscri
: Right.]. And the TTalalalmud spends the majori
g wittthhh hohohowww tototo ppprararactctcticicice.e.e. Yeseses sssomomomeee ofofof iiitt in m
t a gggooooood d dededeaaal ooof ittt iiinn mammattererers ofofof eveveveryrr day
ow to inttteree acacact tt wiwiwith ooothtt er pppeooplplple.. And very
nttt in ittt tatatalkllkinininggg abaa ouououttt thhheee bebebeliliiefeff iiin God as
ennn the [uuuncccleeearrr] bebebelililiefefefs [u[[ nnncllel aaar]].] What us
u kkknow, whaaattt weww nnneeeeeeddd tototo dddo,o,o, wwwhohoho was righhthteo
ing [[[unclclclear] mororore thththananan anynynyttthing elllsesese.
Jacob Neusner, whwhwhooo wawawasss one ofofof the founding,
tory as one of the greatest scholars of the
absolutely no understanding of the Talmud. That the Talmud
really is one of the most sophisticated [29:00] belief systems
articulated in the history of religion. And he makes such a
persuasive case that Christian universities, like St. John’s,
are now studying Talmud, because the only way to understand the
Jewish belief system is to understand how the Talmudic rabbis
put these what he calls ‘paracos’ which are short paragraphs,
together that were all seemingly on the outside dealing with
actions, but had as foundation in the way they were put
together, unbelievable statements of belief. Now that’s even
being challenged.
Attendee:
...that’s the guy from [unclear]
Irwin Kula:
Yeah, of course.
Attendee:
Most of the things in Talmud, when they try- I mean it
accepts the, the divine giving of the Torah...I think is an
underpinning of the Talmud, but they still try and use logical
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
22
hatt he calls ‘paracacosss’ whwhich are short papara
at were all seeminglylyy on the outside dealin
t haddd aaasss fofofoununundadadatititiononon iiinnn theee wawawayyy thththeyeyey wwweere pu
nbelievevevaba lelele statatatemeeentntntss ofoof beleleliiief.f.f. Nowowow that’
enged.
t’sss the guyyy fffrorr mmm [u[u[uncncncleleleararar]]]
of course.
principles to arrive at their conclusions, using the
text...putting text against text, [30:00] and it is rare in the
Talmud, but occasionally that the fathers said the only reason
for this is [unclear]...most things in the Talmud are identified
as a matter of reasoning...
Irwin Kula:
Most beliefs are arrived at by a manner of reasoned
[unclear]. Most beliefs have premise one, premise two, premise
three. If you accept the premises, you accept the conclusion.
Same as legal tradition. Legal tradition has step one, step two,
step three, if you accept that then you get the derivation of
the law.
Attendee:
The potential underpinning of the Jewish belief and how it
was translated...Kaufman said it in his article, was that the
last five commandments, probably other people have described
those beliefs as well, but what was important was that it was
now given not just a general morality but that this is God in a
monotheistic approach...
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
23
eliefs are arrived atatt bby a manner of reason
Most bebebelililiefefefsss hahahaveveve ppprereremimimise ooonenene,,, prprpremememisisisee two,
ou acccececeptpp ttthhhe pppremiiisesesess, yyou aaaccepepept tt thththeee conc
al traditttioii n.n.n. Legegegal tttrrraditititionn hhhasss step one,
iiif you aaacccccceeept t t thththataa ttthehehen yoyoyou uu geeettt thththe deriiva
tentialall uuundndnderee pinninggg ofofof the Jewisssh bebebelief a
ted...Kaufmfmfmananan sssaiaa d dd ititit iiin hihihisss ararartititicle, was t
ommandments, prrrobobobababablylyly oootherrr ppeople have des
fs as well but what was important was that
Irwin Kula:
So you just said exactly what I’ve been saying for the last
thirty minutes. The real essential thing was a belief, [31:00]
that there was God and that there was a monotheistic, a
monotheistic approach. You just proved what I just said.
[unclear] the Ten Commandments are a wonderful thing. The Ten
Commandments, we think of Commandments as things you have to do,
but what’s the first commandment? It’s a belief, right?
Maimonides says without that belief there are no commandments.
These are real, these are the real tensions within the
tradition. You’re right that there’s no Catechism, that’s true.
But that’s because we don’t have, that’s why I started with
this, we don’t have an authority figure, and there’s no list of
beliefs that we have to recite every day. Although, that’s not
true a hundred percent. How many people like the song [sings
‘Adon Olam’ in Hebrew]? You like that song? All that is is
Maimonides thirteen principles of faith, rearticulated in poetry
that we have used in song form, that is sung in Reform
congregations...right, [32:00] and if Reform Jews knew what they
were singing [unclear] oh God, I’m sure they would strike it out
[audience laughter]. Right? One of the things we’re going to
study this- one of the things that they’re saying is that they
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
24
s, wew think of Commmmannndmdmd enents as things yyouou h
the first commandmentntt??? IItI ’s a belief, right
says wiwiwithththouououttt thththatatat bbbelelelieieief thththererereee arararee e nonono comma
eal, thththeseee aaaree e the rerereaal ttensisisiooonsss wiww thththinii the
You’re riiighgg tt thtt atatat theeerrre’s nnno CaCaCateeechcc ism, tha
beeecause wwweee doddon’nn’ttt hahh veveve, thhhatatat’sss wwwhyhyhy III startted
n’t’ have annn aaauttthoooririritytyty fffigigiguuureee, andndnd there’sss n
t wwwe have tttooo rerr cicicitetete eeeveveveryryry dddayyy. AAAlthough,,, th
red pppercececent. Howww mamamanynyny pppeoeoeoplplple like ttthehehe sssong
in Hebebbrererew]w]w]? You likekeke ttthat song? Allllll that i
thirteen prprprinininciciciplpp es offf fffaititth,h,h, rrreaeaearticulated
e used in song fofoformrmrm,,, thththat iiisss sung in Reform
ns right [32:00] and if Reform Jews knew
Torah was dictated from God word for word to Moses, who wrote it
down and that’s the same Torah we got in our book now. I don’t
think there are very many Reform Jews who believe that. Or the
twelfth principle that says resurrection of the dead, I don’t
think there are very many Reform Jews that believe that. And yet
we all sing Adon Olam . And Maimonides himself says, if you
don’t believe these thirteen things, you’re akofer, you’re a
heretic, you’re an idolater, you’re outside the community.
Now, I wanna, I’m making a very strong case, I know, and so
that’s why you’re objecting a little bit. And what I wanna say,
what I think some of the objection comes from is that there is
this heavy biological understanding of Judaism, that you’re
automatically a Jew if...[33:00] if you’re born a Jew. Okay? So
that, that heavy biological connection makes everything
unimportant in relation to your really being a Jew, but by the
way, that makes belief as unimportant as it makes actions, and
we never, we don’t understand that. Right? You can do everything
wrong as a Jew, you can transgress every ethical and ritual,
quotation marks, “commandment,” and every belief that’s ever
been brought down and we still have this crazy understanding of
what does it mean to be Jewish. That’s our biological aspect of
Judaism. How many people are comfortable with that?
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
25
ve tht ese thirteen tthihiingnn s,s, you’re akofer,, yo
u’re an idolater, youuu’r’’re outside the commun
wannnna,a,a, III’m’m’m mmmakakakinining gg aaa vevevery ssstrtrtrononong g g cacacasesese, I kn
you’reee obo jejejecctc inining a lililitttlele bititit. AnAnAnd dd whwhwhataa I w
k some offf thehehe objbjbjectiiiooon comomomes fffrooom mm is that
biiiologicacacalll uuundededersrsrstatt ndndndinining ofofof JJJududdaiaiaismmm, thatt y
lyy y a Jew ifff.....[[[3333:0:0:00]0]0] iiifff yyyouuu’rrre bbbooorn a Jeeew.
heaaavy biolooogigigicacc lll cococonnnnnnececectititiononon mmmakakakeees everytththin
in rrrelatatation to yyyououourrr rererealalallylyly being aaa JJJewewew, bu
akes bebeelililiefefef as unimpopoportrtrtant as it maaakekekes acti
e don’t undndnderererstststanaa d dd ththth tat. RiRiRighghght?t?t? YYYou can do
Jew, you can trtrrananansgsgsgrereressssss eveeerryry ethical and r
arks “commandment ” and every belief that’
Attendee:
That you can still be Jewish or that you can still be a
Jew?
Irwin Kula:
That you’re still a Jew, I’m sorry, that you’re still a
Jew. So, in, in that sense, there’s nothing you have to believe
to be a Jew. But there’s nothing, and that says there’s nothing
you have to do to be a Jew, either [34:00]! So, well, how many
people are comfortable with that heavy biological...?
Everybody’s really happy about that? You can have the worst
human being in the world...
Attendee:
You first said comfortable, now you’re saying
uncomfortable, I don’t know if people...
Irwin Kula:
Who’s uncomfortable with this notion, that no matter who
you are, no matter how bad a human being you are, no matter what
you’re beliefs are, your mother’s a Jew, you’re a Jew. How many
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
26
ou’’rer still a Jew,, I’m mm sosorry, that you’rere s
, in that sense, thhherrre’ee’s nothing you have t
. Buttt ttthehehererere’s’s’s nnnototothihihingngng, and dd thththatatat sssayayaysss tthere’
do ttooo bebb aaa Jewewew, eiiithththeer [[34:0:0:0000]!!! SoSS , weww ll,
comfortabbblell wwwitii hhh thattt heavyvyvy bbioioiolooogigigical...?
rrreally hhhapapappppy aaaboboboutuu ttthahahat??? YYYououou cccananan hhhave thhe
iiin the wwworrrlddd.....
rst saiaiid dd cococomfmm ortable,e,e, nnnow you’re saaayiyiying
le, I don’t’t’t kkknononowww ififif peo llple.......
people, like- really uncomfortable with that that? How many peo-
I’m sorry, how many people are really uncomfortable with that?
Sure, we’re all...You’re not, you’re not uncomfortable with that
at all?
Attendee:
I mean you can be a really bad black person, you’re still
black, and you can be a really bad Chinese, you’re still
Chinese.
Irwin Kula:
Oh, good. So for you, Judaism really is a race?
Attendee:
No I’m not saying it’s a race, I’m saying if you’re a
person you’re still a person. You can be a rotten person, you’re
still a person.
Irwin Kula:
Oh well, no one’s saying they’re not a person. God forbid!
A person’s a person. I’m saying is the person a Jew?
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
27
yoou u can be a realllly babab d d black person, yoyou’
you can be a really bbbadaad Chinese, you’re sti
oddd. So fofoforrr yyyouu,u, JJJuduu aiaiaismsmsm rrreaeaealllllly isiss aaa race??
not t sayiyiying it’’sss a rararacecece, I’’mmm sayinggg iiif f f you’
re stililllll aaa pepp rson. YoYoYouuu can be a rrrotttteteten pers
son.
Attendee:
You can have a terrible mother but they’re still your
mother.
Attendee:
It’s not [35:00] exclusionary; it’s not the only way...
Irwin Kula:
Your mother’s your mother, well how?
Attendee:
Because of biology...
Attendee:
Biological!
Irwin Kula:
Biological. Because of genetics, right? [Various attendees:
Right]. A black is a black because of what?
Attendee:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
28
otherrr’s’s’s yyyououourrr momomothththererer,,, wewewell hhhowowow???
e of biololologogogyyy.....
ical!
ical Because of genetics right? [Various
Okay, well...
Irwin Kula:
Genetics. A Chinese...
Attendee:
Your mother’s a Jew, you’re a Jew.
Irwin Kula:
But because of what?
[several voices speaking at once]
Attendee:
He’s a Jew!
Irwin Kula:
But I...I’m, I’m saying he’s a Jew! The system says he’s a
Jew. I’m asking if you’re comfortable with Father Daniel being a
Jew.
Attendee:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
29
othhere ’s a Jew, you’u’reee a JJew.
cause ooof whwhwhaata ???
iccces speaeaeakikikinnng aaattt onoo cecece]]
Jew!w!w!
..I’m, I’m sayiyiingngng hhhe’e’e’sss a Jeeew!w!w! The system sa
king if you’re comfortable with Father Dani
It’s not ideal...
Irwin Kula:
Well it’s not ideal, but...yeah...Oh we’re so scared to
disagree with the tradition. God!
[several voices; indistinct]
Irwin Kula:
One person, one person.
Attendee:
...be much more discomfiture if that was the only way to be
Jew. Since it’s not the only way, it’s not that uncomfortable a
proposition. I mean after all, there’s always the possibility
that someone is born a Jew and that’s their only entitlement
[unclear] could one day [36:00] become a better act- uh, act out
[unclear]. It’s not the only way to become a Jew.
Irwin Kula:
That’s true. We have conversion. And it’s funny, you know
what we do to converts? I mean, we do a lot of bad things to
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
30
icees;s indistinct]
rson, ooone pppeeersososon.
muuuch moreee dddissscooomfffitititururureee ififif thhhattt wwwasss the onnnly
it’’’s not thhheee onoo lylyly wayayay, ititit’s’s’s nnnototot that uncccomf
. I mmmean nn after alalall,l,l, ttthehehererere’s’s’s always thththeee poss
e is boboornrnrn aaa Jew and ttthahahat’s their onnnlylyly entit
ould one dadadayyy [3[3[36:66 00000 ]] bbecomeee aaa bbbetetettet r act- u
It’s not the onnnlylyly wwwayayay ttto beeeccocome a Jew.
converts, but you know what we do to converts? Across the board,
from right wing Orthodoxy to left wing Reform, you know what we
make them take?
Attendee:
Classes
Irwin Kula:
[unclear] well classes [audience laughter]...In a lot of
cases, that’s a form of punishment, I do know. You know what we
make them take, after they get out of the mikvah? An affirmation
of faith. Ask any convert from right wing Orthodoxy to left wing
Reform is they have to recite the Shema at their entrance
ceremony.
[unclear voice from audience] No one’s saying that, no
one’s saying that. But that’s committing themselves to belief,
too. So [37:00] it’s funny that a convert...we have to commit
them, we make a very significant point to commit them to a
belief system. But a Jew, genetically, is always a Jew. So I
think that that tension, that a genetic Jew is always a Jew,
which taking the logic to extreme does become racist, by the
way.
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
31
ar] wwwelelellll clclclasasassesesesss [a[a[audududieieienceee lalalaugugughththtererer].].]...In a
’s a fofoform ooofff pupupunishhhmememennt, I dododo knononow.ww YYYouoo kno
ake, afteeerrr thththeyee ggget oooutuu offf thheee miiikvkk ah? An a
skkk any cococonvnvnveeert t t frfrfromoo rrrigigighttt wwwinining OrOrOrthththodoxy to
heeyy have tooo rrrecccittteee thththeee ShShSheeemaaa aata thheh ir entttra
ar vvoioo ceee from auuudididienenencecece]]] NoNoNo one’s sayayayininingg g tha
g that.. BBBututut that’s cococommmmmmitting theeemssselelelves to
:00] it’s fffunununnynyny thahh tt a convvvererert.t.t.....we have to
ke a very signiniififificacacantntnt pppointtt tto commit them
em But a Jew genetically is always a Jew
Attendee:
Why does it become racist?
Irwin Kula:
Because if the only reason you’re Jew is genetic...
Attendee:
Well, I..[unclear]
Attendee:
It’s not the only reason all Jews...but some Jews
Irwin Kula:
Yeah, well, bottom line, it’s the reason all Jews who have
Jewish parents are Jewish.
Attendee:
Right, but it’s not a reason that all Jews are Jewish. Not
all Jews have Jewish mothers.
Irwin Kula:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
32
I..[uuuncncncleleleararar]]]
ottt the onononlylyly reaeaeasososon nn alalallll Jeeewswsws...... bb.bututut sssome Jeews
well,l,, bototottom liiinenene,,, ititit’sss ttthehehe reason alalalll Jews
nts areee JJJewewewisii h.
but it’s not a reason that all Jews are Je
That’s correct. Those people, we make sure that they have
the right beliefs and the right actions.
Attendee:
That’s an important distinction...
Irwin Kula:
But I think...don’t you see a little bit, don’t you see a
little bit of irony in that? That you can have this, that you
can have this...[38:00] Brother Daniel is a good example of
this, really. You can have this guy, who says he is Jewish,
because his mother was Jewish, he lives like a [unclear]...I
mean he lives like a Christian. What if the Israel government
decides...the Halakha decided [unclear] on that person.
Attendee:
They did...the chief rabbi never had to make a
decision...decision is made by the Supreme Court...
Irwin Kula:
Right but I’m saying what if, what would the chief
rabbinate say about that?
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
33
think...don’t you seeee a little bit, don’t y
of irrrononony y y ininin ttthahahat?t?t? TTThahahattt youuu cacacannn hahahaveveve ttthhis, t
is...[3[3[38:8 000000]]] BrBrBrotheeerrr DDaninniel iiis aaa gogg ododod examp
y. You caaannn hahahavevv ttthis ggguy, wwwhoo sssayyysss he is Je
mmmother wwwasasas JJJewewewisisish,hh hhheee liiivevevesss liliikekeke aaa [uncllea
ess like aaa CCChrrrissstiiiananan. WhWhWhatatat ifff ttht eee IIsI rael gggov
he Halakha dddecececidddededed [[[unununclclcleaeaarrr] ooonnn that perrrson
id...the chchchieieieff f rarr bbbbbbiii never hahahad d d tototo make a
decision is madaddeee bybyby ttthehehe Supupprrereme Court...
Attendee:
They didn’t, but I think they would have had to have said
he was Jew.
Irwin Kula:
Yeah, of course, the Halakha says he’s Jewish. What if,
what did the Supreme Court say? Not Jewish. The Supreme Court’s
decision was based on what? On fact? It was based on belief. Not
biology, right. Belief, not biology. What belief/action would
your people...[unclear]. The non-biological...[39:00]
Attendee:
A lot of the... [distant, unclear] the allocation of
resources...As, as a community, we don’t allocate [unclear]...We
allocate a lot of time and effort to try and...if you look at
our body of literature, or if you look at our actual activities,
spend a lot more time in volunteering for the tribe, [unclear]
um, ...that’s the only action, of sorts, we have bris, we have
shiva...so we say we’re action oriented, because that’s where we
spend our time, our total resources… [unclear]
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
34
of coc urse, the Halalakhkhhaaa ssaya s he’s Jewish.. Wh
e Supreme Court say?? NoNNott t Jewish. The Suprem
s basssededed ooonnn whwhwhatatat??? OnOnOn fffacacact? IIIttt wawawass bababasesesedd on b
ght. BeBeBeliefefef,, nononot biiiolololoogy.yy. WWhahahattt bebebelill efefef/a// ctio
...[uncleeearaa ]... Thehehe nonnn-b-- iololologicacacal....[39:00]
of the... [[[dididistss ananant,t,t, uuuncncncleleleararar] thththeee allocattition
.As, as aaa communinn tytyty, wewewe dddononon’’’t allocccatatateee [unc
lot off tititimememe and efforororttt to try anddd...i.i.if you
literaturerere, ororor if ff you lllookokk aaattt ououour actual a
more time in vvvolololunununteteteerereringgg fofofor the tribe, [
’s the only action of sorts we have bris
Irwin Kula:
Okay, but, my point is that every single one of those
actions has as a foundation very serious beliefs. [40:00] And if
it, when it doesn’t, what happens to those actions? They
ordinarily stop being done. And in ages of great openness to the
community, where there’s tremendous intellectual challenge,
that’s exactly what happens...when we don’t articulate our
beliefs.
There’s one other, let’s just move one so we can have one
more [unclear]...There’s one other time when this tremendous
agitation about beliefs...we’ve said where there’s openness.
Does any have a...one other time, that I can, in my sense of
Jewish history...[voices from audience].
Okay. Where there’s persecution, which means when there’s
some kind of catastrophe that happens within the Jewish people,
and there’s a tremendous agitation about beliefs. That’s
correct. We have a few great examples. The destruction of the
First Temple, right? Isaiah, two, okay, [41:00] and Ezekiel, who
lived post-destruction of the Temple, in a sense redefined
everything we talk about God, and the relationship between God
and human beings, and I’m sure during your seminars in the next
two years one of the things you will do is study the prophetic
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
35
tlyy what happens....whwhhenee wwe don’t articulalate
s oneee ooothththererer,,, lelelet’t’t’sss jujujuststst movovoveee onononeee sososo wwwee can
ar]...T.T.Thererere’’’s ooone ooothththeer ttimeee wwwhenenen thihihisss trem
bout beliiiefee s.....wewewe’ve sssaid wwwheererere ttthehh re’s ope
veee a...onononeee otototheheherrr titt mememe, thhhatatat III cccananan, in my se
orryry...[voooicccesss fffrooomm m auauaudididiennnccce]]].
Wheeere there’e’e’sss peersrsrsececcutututioioion,n,n, whihihichchch means wwwhen
f catattastrtrtrophe ttthahahat hahahappppppenenenss within ttthehehe JJJewis
a tremmmenenendododousuu agitatititiononon about belllieeefsfsfs. That
have a ffewewew gggrerereataa exampllles... TTThehehe dddestruction
e, right? Isaiaiaah,h,h, tttwowowo, okayayy,, [41:00] and Ez
destruction of the Temple in a sense redef
period, so I don’t want to go into it now, but there are very
fundamental distinctions about what it is to believe as Jew.
Same with the first century destruction, right, by the Romans.
That the Judaism of 200 CE would be unrecognizable to the
Judaism of 200 BCE...The beliefs were so different! And because
the beliefs were so different, obviously, what else was
different? The practice is so different.
Now, if this is the right theory, and I think it is, okay,
it also means that in an age like ours, when we have both
openness and key events [42:00]... I think the key events are
the Holocaust, obviously, and the establishment of the State of
Israel. When we have two key events like that, it’s gonna force
the system to rethink its basic premises, to rethink its basic
beliefs. Which means we’re in an age, and this is why what we’re
doing is so critical, we’re in an age that’s beginning to
redefine what it means to be Jewish. We’ve gotten away, in the
last 35 years, 40 years, without doing it. You know why? ‘Cause
we’ve been so busy just surviving, post-Holocaust. Right? How do
think we raise money based on Jewish survival [unclear]? All
that means when I say that, that’s just a fancy way, that’s just
a simple way of saying you bring in Holocaust, you bring in
persecution, you bring in that everybody’s against us, you bring
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
36
Thee practice is soo didiifffff ererent.
f this is the right t thththeory, and I think it
ns thhhatatat iiinnn ananan aaagegege lllikikikeee oursrsrs,,, whwhwhenenen wwweee hhave b
d keyyy eeevevv ntntntsss [4[4[42:0000].].] ... II thihihinnnk ttthehh kkkeyee eve
st, obviooousuu lylyly,,, ananand thhheee estatatablisisishmmmenee t of the
n we haveveve tttwwwo kkkeyeyey eveveventntnts lililikekeke ttthahahat,t,t, it’s go
tooo rethinnnk ittts baaasisisiccc prprpremmmiiiseees,,, tototo rethinkkk i
ichhh means wwwe’e’e’rerr iiin nn ananan aaagegege,,, annnddd ttthis is wwhwhy
crititticalalal, we’reee inii aaannn agagagee ttthat’s bbbegegegininnning
at it mmmeaeaeansnsns to be Jewewewisisish. We’ve gggotttteteten away
rs, 40 yearararsss, wwwitii hohh tut ddd iioingngng iiit.t.t. YYYou know wh
so busy just suuurvrvrvivivivinining,g,g, possst-t-t-Holocaust. Rig
ise money based on Jewish survival [unclear
in [43:00] those kinds of issues. [voice from audience]. Every
little bit helps, and that helps lot! Right? Jewish survival.
What are we learning in fundraising now? Anybody who’s active in
fundraising in, in, we were just talking, Joe and I were talking
yesterday about what’s going on in training, in UJA training
seminars. All of a sudden you’ve got a half hour of what, Joe?
[Joe: Judaica] And you specifically said one thing about
Judaica, they talk about what? Covenant. A covenant’s not an
action word. Covenant’s a belief word. Meaning belief is a
relationship, it somehow exists between God and Man and that’s
powered this whole civilization...That is a pretty weird thing
to be talking about from a solicitation. Herb, I don’t know but,
in the solicitations of twenty-five years ago...
Herb:
No.
Irwin Kula:
Okay, and I’m not an expert on that, but he’s the expert,
probably in the world, on that...Chances are, if you talked
about covenant, your wealthy person...I don’t know what he would
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
37
ca]] And you specificicalalallyy said one thing g abo
ey talk about what? CCCooovenant. A covenant’s
. Covvvenenenananant’t’t’sss a a a bebebelililiefefef wwword.d.d. MMMeaeaeanininingngng bbbeelief
p, itt sssomehehehooow eeexistttsss bbetwttween n n GGGoddd anaa d dd MaMM n an
s whole cccivii ilillizii atatation.......Thatatat isss a prprpretty wei
nggg abouttt frfrfrooom aaa sssoloo icicicitititatttioioion.n.n. HHHererrb,b,b, I donn’t
ciiitationsss ooof twwwennntytyty-f-f-fivivive yyyeaaarsss aaagooo...
and I’m not an expert on that but he’s the
do. But, you didn’t talk about covenant. [44:00] You didn’t talk
about...Why all of a sudden the talk about beliefs?
Attendee:
Trying to give the solicitor a sense of purpose.
Irwin Kula:
Once you got survival guaranteed, then you don’t question
that answer? Once survival is guaranteed...and survival, Jewish
people’s survival is guaranteed. I mean, Herb made a case
yesterday. Israel’s survival is not at stake. Individual people
in [place name] and [place name], and, and when you have a
terrorist, they, they are at stake, but the survival of the
Jewish people is not at stake right now! So once you get the
survival down, what do you got to answer, what questions? Why!
Why survive. Is that an action question or belief question? It’s
a belief question. ‘Cause once you answer the question why, then
what will you be [unclear]. Then you have to act. Once you
answer the question why, then you got a chance of getting some
money, to take care of the why... [45:00]
Now [unclear] happens to be, for whatever reason, this is
God’s little game with us, we’re the generation that is
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
38
ou got survival guaraaantnnteed, then you don’t
? Onccceee sususurvrvrvivivivalalal iiisss guguguarararanteteteededed.....aaandndnd sssuurviva
rvivaaalll is ggguuuarararanteeeed.d.d I mmean,n,n, Herererb bb mamamadedd a c
Israel’s suss rvrvrvivii alalal is nnnot atatat statatakeee. Individu
ammme] and d d [p[p[plallacecece nnnamaa e]e]e], annnd,d,d, aaandndd wwwhehehen you ha
thheh y, theeey arrre attt statatakekeke,, bbbuttt ttht eee sssurvivalll o
le is not aaattt stss akakakeee riririghghghttt nononow! SSSooo once yooou g
wn, wwwhattt do you gggototot tttooo anananswswswer, whattt qqqueueuestio
. Is ththhatatat aaannn action qqqueueuestion or bbbelllieieief ques
estion. ‘CaCaCausususe ee onoo ce you anssswewewerrr thththe question
ou be [unclear]r]]... ThThThenenen yyyou hhhaavave to act. Once
question why then you got a chance of gett
responsible to answer the why. Much like that first century
[name]. When [he] left the temple and knew the temple was going
to be destroyed, and all those Zealots were going to be
destroyed, and [unclear] would be killed at Masada, and he knew
it was all over for that whole expression of Jewish life, and he
went up to [unsure], he went to Tiberius. [He] knew,
unfortunately he probably wasn’t so happy about it, okay that he
was going to have to redefine Judaism. You know how long it
took? Well the Talmud, remember [unclear]...when was the
Jerusalem [unclear] the Babylonian Talmud was finished when?
500, 550. That, in a sense, was the encyclopedia of Judaism,
belief, action, everything. It’s not systematic, so we get more
action stuff we think than belief, but that’s only because it’s
not systematic. But, at 550, you’ve got the Judaism debate that
basically lasted until 1750, 1720. [46:00] [unclear]. Took four
hundred years. Now, one...one of the things I learned from Herb
is that history moves, moves faster once we hit tech- modernity,
with technology and communications, and all the kinds of things
we have that make this modern. History itself moves faster. So,
four hundred years of movement between 200 and 550 or 200 and
600, may be equal to fifty years of movement in this age. Is
that...that’s one of the things I learned, and it makes a lot of
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
39
ly heh probably wasnsn’ttt so o happy about it,, ok
o have to redefine JuJuudaddaiiism. You know how lo
the TTTalalalmumumud,d,d, rrremememememembebeberrr [u[u[uncleleleararar].].].....whwhwhenenen was t
uncleeararar] thththeee BaBaBabylooonininiaan TTalmumumuddd wawawasss fififininn shed
hat, in aaa senennses ,,, was thtt e enenencyyyclclclopppedee ia of Ju
iooon, everererytytythihhingngng. ItII ’s’s’s nnnottt sssysysystetetemamamatititic, so we
f we thinnnk thhhannn bbbelelelieieief,ff bbbuuut thhah t’t’t’sss only bbbec
ticcc. But, aaattt 5555 0,0,0, yyououou’vvveee gogogot thththeee Judaismmm de
astededd untntntil 175550,00 1117272720.00 [[[464646:00] [unnnclclcleaeaear].
rs. Nowww, ononone.ee ..one ofofof ttthe things I lelelearned
tory moves,s,s, mmmovovoveese fffastter onnncecece wwweee hih t tech-
logy and communnnicicicatatatioioionsnsns, annnddd all the kinds
t make this modern History itself moves fa
sense. You know, it took the Babylonian Talmud [unclear] to get
to Palestine, a hell of a lot more of than it takes to get a
message that’s figured out in a university in New York to
Houston. And I learned that this week as I left a very important
part of my work in New York. I got here in Houston at twelve
o’clock, and I had it by fax machine about twenty five minutes
later. It’s an amazing thing. So I learned, yeah, history is
compressed [47:00]. So instead of a...[recording goes silent]
...generation together, and every city in this country, and we
hope it grows past the cities we’re in now. I better get these
young people together, and better get them thinking about the
why, or we’re gonna be in a heap of trouble...That’s the stakes
of what we’re now going to do for the rest of this session.
We’re gonna begin the ‘Why.’ And if we don’t come up with a good
Why, okay, or at least the beginnings of a Why, or at least the
discomfort of not having a Why yet, we are in very big trouble.
It’s not only going to happen here, but we’re talking about
[unclear], and the truth is this is a wonderful exercise for all
of the Jewish people to be doing here, and it’s probably the
exercise [48:00] that happened around Jochannan’s academy...and
it’s probably the exercise that happened in Maimonides’s
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
40
ann amazing thing. Sooo I llearned, yeah, hihist
[47:00]. So insteaddd ooofff a...[recording goes
on toogegegetht ererer,, ananand evvverereryy ciccity iiinnn thththisii cccouoo ntry
ws past ttthehh cccitii ieieies weee’r’’ e ininin nnowowow. III better g
e togetheheher,r,r, andndnd bbbetee teteterrr geeettt thththemmm ttthihihinking ab
ree gonna beee iiin a heheheapapap ooofff tttroooubblb eee....That’sss t
re now goinnng gg tott dddooo fofoforrr thththeee reeeststst of this ses
begigigin thththe ‘Why.’.. AAAndndnd iiifff wewewe don’t cccomomomeee up w
or at llleaeaeaststst the beginininnininings of a WWWhyyy,,, or at
of not havivivingngng aaa Whyhh y tet, weee aaarerere iiin very big
ly going to happppepepennn hehehererere, buuuttt we’re talking
and the truth is this is a wonderful exerci
discussion rooms with his students. It happened at all those
[37:00] important moments in history, and that’s one of the
moments we’re living in now.
So now let’s go to the ‘Why.’ Now how do you start, in
Judaism, with answering a question like Why? How do you start?
[voice from audience] Yeah, you ask another question. Well,
let’s say that we got to the bottom line question, how do we do
it? Well there, it seems to me there are two approaches to
answering a question like why. We can open up the law, right, or
we can say, “What do you think?” And we can make a big list and
argue about it. Right? What’s the problem with that approach?
[voice from audience] Ha, too much like [unclear]. What’s the
problem with that approach? [voice from audience]. I dunno,
maybe we can come up with a very nice list. I bet you we can
come up, maybe even with the...[49:00] well, we’ll see about the
other approach. We can come up with a list and I bet you most of
the people here would agree on, and which would be very powerful
and which would, we can send around and get people to talk about
it, it would really be very effective. What’s the problem with
doing that? [voices from audience] It’s...authority.
Okay...[voices from audience] Maybe instead of authority, let me
use the word legitimacy. In some sense, from what we understand
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
41
hatt we got to the bbototttott m m line question, hhow
ere, it seems to me ttthehhere are two approache
quessstititiononon lllikikike e e whwhwhy.y.y. WWWeee cannn opopopenenen uuup p p thththee law,
“Whaaattt dod yyyooou ttthinkkk?”?”?” Andnnd weee cannn mamm kekeke a big
it. Righhht?tt WWWhahh t’t’t’s thhheee probobobleemmm wiiithtt that ap
aaaudiencecece]]] HaHaHa,,, tototoooo mumumuchchch lllikikikeee [u[uuncncncleleear]. WWha
h that apppprrroaaachhh? [v[v[voioioicecece fffrrrommm aaaudididieeence]. III d
n cccome up wwwititith hh aaa veveveryryry nnniciciceee liiiststst. I bet yyyou
ybe eeeven nn with ttthehehe.. [[.[494949 0:0:00]0]0] well, wwwe’e’e’lllll see
ach. WeWee cccananan come up wwwititith a list aaanddd III bet y
here would dd agagagrerereeee on, anddd whwhwhicicichhh wowowould be ver
ould, we can seeendndnd aaarororoununund annnddd get people to
d really be very effective What’s the prob
about Judaism, it would be somewhat illegitimate, because it
starts here as opposed to starting where?
Attendee:
Well, [unclear], with the ideas that you would come up with
would be, what, what, what was in the Bible...
Irwin Kula:
Oh, okay.
Attendee:
The the why was answered thirty-five hundred years ago, we
just...
Irwin Kula:
Similar Whys, right? We have to rework the Whys. Good. So
what really you’re saying is, what we have to do [50:00] is
begin at the beginning in some sense, look at all the answers to
the Whys up to now, reinterpret some of those Whys, strike out
some of those Whys, recast some of those Whys, rework some of
those Whys, until we have the answers to the Whys that fit our
generation. Okay? So those- to make it continuous somehow with
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
42
ay.
e why wasasas aaannnswewewererered dd thththiririrtyyy-f-f-fivivive huhuhundndndred yeeary
r Whys,, rrrigigighthh ? We havavaveee to rework thhheee Whys.
you’re sayayayinining gg isii , hhwh tat we hahahaveveve ttto do [50:0
e beginning in sososomememe sssenenense, lololook at all the
to now reinterpret some of those Whys st
Moses at Sinai, we have to at least start by looking at the
answers that were given there. That’s why, what do we do most in
these sessions? We study texts. We don’t just bullshit around.
We- that’s what they do in synagogues, by the way, for the most
part, and some classes. They bullshit around. What do you
believe? [indistinct voice from crowd].
No. Jews decide what they believe based on an interaction
between themselves and their texts, whatever those texts are.
That text can be a Kaufman, that text can be Exodus, that text
can be [51:00] Kaplan, that text can be Maimonides. Doesn’t make
a difference what the text is, but an interaction with the
texts. So we’re gonna start with what is the classic formulation
of articles of faith, or principles, and that is Maimonides, if
you open your...your dogma article, there’s one thing that’s
great about this article- it’s a terrible article [audience
laughter], but there’s one thing that’s great about the
article...is that, it’s short, that’s a great thing, right,
especially post-Kaufman! I think, when I saw what Herb gave you,
okay, I had no chance of me getting you to read anything that
was like that. So I figured, I, I take it easy on ‘ em. But
here’s the funny thing about that article, the first page and a
half deals with proving one issue, what is that? That Judaism
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
43
ws ddecide what theey y bebebeliieve e based on an ini t
mselves and their ttexxxtstts, whatever those tex
an beee aaa KKKauauaufmfmfmananan,,, thththatatat tttexttt cacacannn bebebe EEExoxoxoddus, t
00] KKapapaplan,n,n, thahahat teeextxtxt canaan beee MMaM imimimonoo idididesee . Do
e what thhheee tetetextxx iiis, bbbutuu annn innteteteraaactcc ion with
e’re gonnnnnnaaa stststarararttt wiww ththth wwwhaaattt isisis ttthehehe ccclassicc f
oofo faithhh, orrr pppriiincncncipipipleleles,s,s, annnd thahahatt t is Maiiimo
ur....your dddogogogmamm aaartrtrticiciclelele, thththerrre’e’e’sss one thiining
thisiss artrtrticle- ititit’s’s’s aaa ttterererriiibbble artiiiclclcleee [aud
but theheererere’s’s’s one thingngng ttthat’s greaaat abababout th
s that, it’t’t’sss shshshoroo t,tt tthhhat’t’t’s a a a grgrgreaeaeat t thing, r
post-Kaufman! III ttthihihinknknk, whennn II saw what Herb
no chance of me getting you to read anythi
has? No dogma. The rest of the article deals with what? Dogmas
of Judaism. The guy, Menachem Kellner, I know Menachem
Kellner...he just couldn’t accept the fact that Judaism has
dogma, so he writes this whole article about dogma, prefacing it
[52:00] by saying Jews have no dogma. The article should have
been over after the first page. And he didn’t unpack Kreskas,
and he didn’t unpack Albo, and he didn’t unpack [unclear], that
he didn’t unpack, he didn’t unpack anybody, who all have dogmas,
in the notion of beliefs, intents, they are the basis to the
system.
Okay, let’s look at...in just a one sentence review, what
we said is Judaism does have dogma, that it’s the foundation of
any system of life. Any system of life has to say things about
God, has to say things about the world, has to say fundamental
things about man that you believe out of which emerges actions.
We said that struggle to articulate beliefs, basically happens
most when you can interact with society and the challenges of
society, and when there are fundamental, catastrophic [53:00]
events externally that happen to the Jewish people, forces us to
reevaluate, and finally we said, we’re in that age. And we’re in
that age in a very serious sense, ‘cause we maybe only have
fifty years...to being to rearticulate. By the way, if you ever
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
44
’t unu pack Albo, andnd hhheee dididn’t unpack [uncncle
npack, he didn’t unpaaackcck anybody, who all ha
on offf bbbelelelieieiefsfsfs,,, ininintetetentntnts,s,s, thehehey yy ararareee thththeee bbbasis
let’s looookkk atatat...i.i.in juuussst a ooonee sssennntett nce revi
Juuudaism dddoeoeoesss hahahaveveve dogogogmamama, thththatatat iiit’tt s the fooun
offf life. Annny syyystttememem ooofff lililifffe haaas tooo say thhhin
saaay thingsss aaabobb ututut ttthehehe wwworororldldld, hahahasss to say fun
t manann thahahat you bebebelililieveveveee ouououtt of whichhh eeemememerges
t strugggglglgleee tott articulululatatate beliefs, bbbasasasically
ou can inteteterararactctct wititithhh so iicietetety y y ananand d d the challe
d when there arrreee fufufundndndamamamentaaall,l, catastrophic
rnally that happen to the Jewish people fo
read [unclear] book called Sacred Survival, I think it’s on the
[unclear] reading list, Sacred Survival by Jonathan Woocher...in
which he talks about civil Judaism. And he says in that, that
civil Judaism is the kind of Judaism that’s emerging in Europe,
and he says when a civil Judaism be able to be transmitted to
the next generation, will be dependent on whether it can develop
a, a system of beliefs that they could articulate that underlies
civil Judaism. The whole last chapter, you must read the last
chapter in that book...the first, be sure, you have to read the
first chapter and the last chapter. Everything else in between
you know, intuitively. Okay, it’s a very important book to read.
[54:00]
Attendee:
...question on your comment that we’re at that age. Why
are, why are we in that age?
Irwin Kula:
Okay. We’re at, these are some of the reasons we’re in that
age. One, is that we have never lived in a society that is more
open than America, in the history of Jewish people. Would you
agree with that? Never in the history of the Jews have we lived
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
45
off beliefs that ththeyyy couould articulate ththat
sm. The whole last chchhaaapttet r, you must read t
that bobobookokok.......t.t.thehehe fffiririrststst, be sssururure,e,e, yyyououou hhhaave to
er annd dd tht eee lllaststst chaaaptptpteer. Everereryyty hihihingnn eeelsll e in
ntuitivelllyy.y OOOkakk y,y,y, it’sss a veveveryyy iiimppporoo tant boo
stionnn on nn your comomommemementntnt ttthahahatt we’re attt ttthahahat ag
e we ininn ttthahahattt age?
We’re at these are some of the reasons we’
in such an open society. So automatically, the challenge is to
articulate beliefs that distinguishes us from a non-Jew become
critical. Okay? So that’s one reason. The second is, we had
experienced in, the generation before us, not really our
generation, the two most significant events in Jewish history
since the destruction of the Second Temple, and that is the
Holocaust, which was as great a catastrophe, if not greater,
than the destruction of the Temple; and second, the
establishment of the State of Israel, which changes the
categories of Judaism. When was the last time we had a state?
Sev- sixty-odd, six, seventy, and even, listen, truth is even in
that...beginning of the 1st Century, [55:00] it’s not like we had
a great state. Okay? I mean, Rome was really running it. So we
haven’t had a state, and we haven’t had all the things that
power means and sovereignty means and... it’s changed the
categories of the way we think about Judaism. And if you don’t
believe that, why do we have Jews who don’t observe the Shabbat,
who don’t observe kashrut, who don’t observe any of the things
that have... and who don’t believe any of the things that Jews
have believed for the last 2000 years, but somehow, because they
work night after night for the State of Israel, we recognize as
good Jews and we recognize as people who have a Jewish, a strong
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
46
whiichc was as greatt a cacc tatastrophe, if nott gr
struction of the Temppplelle; and second, the
nt offf ttthehehe SSStatatatetete ooof ff IsIsIsrararael,,, whwhwhicicichhh chchchananangges th
of Juuudadadaism.m.m. Whehehen waaasss ttheee laststst timimime ee wewewe had a
odd, six,,, sevevvenee tytyty, annnd dd evenenen, lililistttenee , truth
nnnning of f f thththeee 111st CCCenee tututuryryry, [5[555:5::000000]] ititit’s nott l
tee. Okay??? III mmmeaaan, RRRomomomeee waaasss rrreaala lylyly runninggg i
a state, aaandndnd wee hahahaveveven’n’n’ttt hahahad alalallll the thiinings
and dd sovevevereignttty yy mememeananansss ananand.d.d... it’s chchchanananged
of the wawawayyy weww think aaabobobout Judaismmm. AnAnAnd if y
t, why do wwweee hahahavvev JJews hhwho dododon’n’n’ttt observe th
bserve kashrut,t wwwhohoho dddononon’t ooobsbsbserve any of th
and who don’t believe any of the things t
Jewish identity. It’s a very interesting phenomenon. It
indicates that there’s something happening in our era, there’s a
redefinition going on. The same kind of redefinition that
happened in the 1st Century.
So the stakes, I believe, are very high. Also, I mean,
here’s an example: why does it, what does a thing like the
Wexner Heritage Foundation happen? It only happens ‘cause we...
people who are making decisions to have this thing [56:00]
believe we’re in a very serious...we got some serious issues to
address, and the stakes are pretty high. So high, that we have
to do it in every city, we have to call and spend time and
incredible amounts of money...that’s how high the stakes. Not to
get you to raise money. We don’t ask you for one penny. Probably
the only foundation in the United States of America that doesn’t
ask its participants for money, Jewish foundation I mean. All we
want you to do is think about what? Ideas. We don’t even really
ask you to do anything. We didn’t demand that you pray
yesterday. We gave an opportunity for you to experience prayer.
Chose not to pray, we wouldn’t have thrown you out of the
program. We don’t demand that you keep kosher. We don’t demand
that you wear a yarmulke. We can’t dis- if you came to last-
yesterday without a yarmulke to prayer, no one would have said,
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
47
tagge e Foundation hapappeeen?nn IIt only happens ‘ca
are making decisions totto have this thing [56
re innn aaa vvverereryy y seseseriririououous.s.s.....we gggototot sssomomomee e seseserrious
d thee ssstakekekesss ararare prrretetettty hhigh.h.h. Sooo hihh ghghgh,,, that
every ciiitytt , weww hhhave ttto calalall ananand spspspend time
ammmounts ooofff mmmoneneneyyy..... thththatatat’sss hhhowowow hhhigigghh h the sttak
raaaise monnneyyy. Weee dddononon’t’t’t aaasksksk yooou fooor one pennnny
undddation innn ttthehh UUUnininiteteted dd StStStatatatesss ooofff Americaaa th
ticipippantststs for monononeyeyey, JeJeJe iwiwishshsh foundatttioioion n n I me
do is thththininink kk about whwhwhatatat? Ideas. WWWe dododon’t ev
do anythingngng. WeWeWe dididid ’’n’tt dddemaaandndnd ttthahahat t you pray
We gave an oppooortrtrtunununititity y y for yyoyou to experienc
o pray we wouldn’t have thrown you out of
I wouldn’t have said anything to you. Come without a
tallis...’cause what are we about? We’re about ideas...[57:00]
right? So that all these are indications, and I go up, I can
give you a list of thousands...all these are indications that
we’re living in some kind of different time.
Okay, so now, look at the dogma, look at the article on
dogma, on page...143. It’s good to, like I say, let’s, we’re
just gonna start with Maimonides. What time is it?
Attendee:
It’s twenty after ten.
Irwin Kula:
Okay, great...Okay. These are Maimonides thirteen
principles, okay, we’re starting with them, and...let’s go
through them, see what Maimonides meant by them, and I’ll have
to help you with that, and then see if we can put it on the
board as something that ought to be entertain in the list that,
by twelve o’clock, we will have created. Okay?
What’s the first one? [audience response] God exists. Okay.
[58:00] Always start with one of the most difficult ones, that
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
48
agee...143. It’s gooood d tott , like I say, let’t’s,
start with Maimonidddesss... WWhW at time is it?
wenty afttteree tttenee ...
greeeat...Okaaay.y.y. Thehehesesese aaarerere MMMaiaiaimooonininidddes thirtteteen
okayayy, wewewe’re stttararartititingngng wwwititith ttthem, annnd.d.d....let’
m, see whwhwhatatat Maimonidededesss meant by tttheeem,m,m, and I
with that,t,t, aaandndnd thehh n see ififf wwweee cacacan put it o
mething that ouuughghghttt tototo bbbe ennntetetertain in the l
’clock we will have created Okay?
God exists. What does Maimonides mean? [voice from audience] It
doesn’t say that.
Attendee:
...implicit in the word God is the...concept of an
omnipotent creator, who created time and the world and the
universe, and created us, and, uh...[unclear]
Irwin Kula:
Okay, how many people are comfortable with that? How many
people are comfortable with the notion that God exists? How many
people are ready to say, “I believe in God”? By the way, it,
Maimonides [unclear] [speaking Hebrew], ‘I believe in perfect
faith,’ although that wasn’t his language, that was later
language. I always say, but it says, “I believe in perfect faith
that...,” for me already the, after, anything after ‘that’ is
problematic, because to me the ‘perfect’ is the problem. Right?
[59:00] ‘I have perfect faith.’ Anyone here have perfect faith,
in anything? No, that’s one of the casualties of modernity, we
don’t have any perfect faith in anything. So we just, we can
write it, ‘I tentatively believe in...’ [audience laughs], and
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
49
nd crc eated us, and,d, uuuh.hh ...[unclear]
how mmmananany yy pepepeoooplelele areee cccoomfoffortabababllle wwwitii hhh thtt at?
comfortabbblell wwwitii hhh the nnnotiononon tthahahat GoGG d exists
reeeady tooo sasasayyy, “III bebb lililieveveve ininin GGGododd”?”?? BBBy the wa
[uuunclear]]] [[[spppeaaakiiingngng HHHebebebreeewww],,, ‘‘I‘ bbbeele ieve iiin
houuugh that wawawasnss ’t’t’t hhhisisis lllanananguguguagggee,e, that wasss la
alwawaays sssay, buttt ititit sssayayays,s,s, “““III believvveee ininn per
or me aaalrlrlreaeaeadydd the, afafafteteter, anythinnng afafafter ‘t
, because tttooo mememe thehh ‘‘‘pe ffrfeccct’t’t’ iiisss the proble
have perfect fafaaititith.h.h.’’’ AnAnAnyoneee hhhere have perfe
? No that’s one of the casualties of moder
I’m willing to, you know, stake some of my actions and some of
my life on.
So what do we say about ‘God exists’? Should we put it on
the board, and come back to it? Or do we want to strike it right
away? How many people comfortable with striking ‘God exists’
right away? Alright, we’re not ready to do that! [laughs]
Attendee:
This is basic, is it not? Or am I crazy, or what? This is
basic.
Irwin Kula:
Any responses?
Attendee:
[unclear]
Irwin Kula:
[unclear]
Attendee:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
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s basssicicic,,, isisis iiit t t nononot?t?t? OOOrrr am III cccrararazyzyy,,, ororor what?
sppoponses?
ar]
ar]
What is there if we don’t have God? Really? There’s got to
be something...
Attendee:
[unclear] higher moral authority...
Irwin Kula:
One person, one person!
Attendee:
You said [unclear] definition [1:00:00] of dogma there’s no
authoritatively...there’s no authority...well, if you don’t have
God as the ultimate authority, if you don’t believe God exists,
why believe anything about what happened at Sinai...
Irwin Kula:
Okay, so you’re making a case to believe that God exists?
Attendee:
Absolutely.
Irwin Kula:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
51
rson, one person!
id [uncleeearaa ] dedd fififinitiiiooon [1:1:1:00:0:0:00] of dogma
veeely...thththererere’ee’sss nonono autututhohohoriiitytyty.......wwwelelll,l,, if yoou
ulltl imate auuuthhhorrrittty,y,y, iiifff yoyoyouuu dddonn’n ttt bbeb lieve Go
annnything aaaboboboutuu wwwhahahattt hahahappppppeneneneddd aaattt Sinai.....
so you’re mmmakakakinininggg a case tto bebebelililieveveve that God
Okay, so I- David’s making the case that God does exist.
Gary? [speaker distant from microphone] Okay, so for you then,
God as a moral authority, distinguishes a moral set of beliefs
from an immoral set of beliefs?
Attendee:
Without a God there’s no...
Irwin Kula:
There’s no what? Are atheists all immoral?
Attendee:
Some are and some aren’t.
Irwin Kula:
Some are and some aren’t. And some believers in God are and
aren’t either. Is there a necessary connection between God and
morality? [1:01:00]
Attendee:
Yes! Yes.
Irwin Kula:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
52
t aa God there’s no.o...
s no whwhwhat??? AArA ee e atheeeisisistts aall iiimmmmorororalaa ???
ree and sooomeee aaareeen’t.t.t.
re anannd sososome aren’nn t. AAAndndnd somomme believvvererers in G
er. Is thththererereee a necessssssararary connectiiionnn bbbetween
1:01:00]
Is there?
Attendee:
It makes it not relative...I mean, our friend in
California, uh, who’s the expert on non-relative morality...he
said it’s relative to an age if you don’t go back to a belief in
God.
Irwin Kula:
Okay. Dennis Prager, who I think Joe is referring to,
Dennis Prager, makes an unbelievably articulate, and I could
never match him in this area, but an unbelievably articulate
argument that God as a moral base, without God as a moral base
you have [Hebrew], ‘everybody can do what they feel is right.’
What do we call that? Anarchy.
Attendee:
Didn’t I say that once before...[woman laughs]
Irwin Kula:
That’s because really deep down I am an anarchist. I
repress it all. But, so, a lot of us are uncomfortable without
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
53
Dennisss Pragagageeer,,, who III tthinink JoJoJoeee isisis refefeferee ring
er, makesss ann unuu bebebelievvvabaa ly aaartticiciculllataa e, and I
hhhim in ttthihihisss ararareaeaea,,, bububuttt annn uuunbnbnbelellieieevavavably arrti
attt God asss aaa mmmorrralll bbbasasase,ee wwwiiithhhouutu GGoodo as a mo
ebrrrew], ‘evvverererybyy ododody y y cacacannn dododo wwwhaaattt ttthey feelll is
calll thatatat? Anarchchchy.y.y
I say that onccceee bebebefofoforerere...[[[wwowoman laughs]
God...because God exists means God as moral [1:02:00] arbiter.
And that doesn’t mean that God says, “Do this!” or “Do that!”
But, in our understanding of God, we use that as an authority.
Okay? By the way, that was a really radical idea, right? In
Biblical times, God and morality was detached for most peoples.
Right? Think of the Noah story. The Noah story was, the Noah
story has its parallels in other cultures. One of the most
famous is called the Epic of Gilgamesh, which we’re gonna study
about these things during the, during the next few seminars.
But, the Epic of Gilgamesh says, you know why the world was
destroyed? Because people were making too much noise and
disturbing the gods. In Noah’s story, why are the people
destroyed? People are immoral. So the Jewish authors of the
Bible, or for those people who are not comfortable with that,
the Jewish Author, with a capital A, of the Bible – makes no
difference to me...[1:03:00] posited that this connection
between God and morality. It’s a very radical thing.
Okay, so we gonna put up ‘God exists.’ I guess I
need...unless, I would love to hear, does somebody have a strong
objection?
Attendee:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
54
ts pap rallels in oththerrr culultures. One of ththe
alled the Epic of GGGilillgggamesh, which we’re go
thinnngsgsgs dddurururinining g g thththe,e,e, dddurururinggg thththeee nenenextxtxt fffeew sem
ic offf GGGilgagagammmeshshsh sayyys,s,s, youoou kkknononowww whwhwhy yy thththeee worl
Because pppeoee plplple ee wewewere mmmakaa inggg tooooo muuuchcc noise a
thhhe gods.s.s. IIInnn NoNoNoahahah’s ssstototoryyy,,, whwhwhy ararare the peeop
Peeople arrre immmmomooraaal.l.l. SSSooo thththeee JJJewwwishshsh authorsss o
or those peeeopopoplell wwwhohoho aaarerere nnnototot cccomomomfffortable wit
Authohoor, wwwith a cacacapipipitatatalll A,A,A, ooofff the Biiiblblbleee – ma
to me....[.[.[1:1:1:0300 :00] posososititited that thhhisss cconnect
and moralililitytyty.. ItII ’’’s a very yy rararadididicacacall thing.
so we gonna pututt uuuppp ‘G‘G‘Gododod exiiistststs.’ I guess I
ss I would love to hear does somebody hav
Well, I, not a strong objection...
Irwin Kula:
Oh, I’m not gonna tell you how to use both sides [audience
laughter]
Attendee:
...on the one hand. On the hand, about this morality issue,
every time when I talk about God existing, the morality issue
comes up that troubles me, because what is involved in the
morality issue, I’m never sure we’re referring to the dogma of
our beliefs or the way we should behave, or is a no-no to
everybody who’s not Jewish that that’s why they should behave a
certain way?
Irwin Kula:
Okay, so what you’re saying is there, in, even in all
beliefs, there are dangers when the beliefs are misunderstood.
The notion that God is the arbiter or ultimate ground for
morality can, if used improperly, wind up being very judgmental
[1:04:00] on other peoples who have different systems of
morality. Okay. And I, that, that’s a fair criticism, which
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
55
the one hand. On thhhe hahhand, about this moral
when III tatatalklklk aaaboboboututut GGGododod eeexistststinining,g,g, ttthehehe mmmooralit
at trrouououblbb eseses me,e,e, becccauauausse wwhattt iiis iiinvnn olololvevv d in
sue, I’m nenn vevever rr sususure wwwe’ee re rrrefferererriiingngng to the
ooor the wwwayayay wee e shshshouoo ldldld bbbehhhavavave,e,e, ooorrr isiss a no--no
hoo’o s not Jeeewiiishhh ttthahahattt thththatatat’’’s whhyh thhhey shouulu dy
?
so what yououou’r’r’re ee sass yiiing iiis ththhererere,e,e, iiin, even in
ere are dangersss wwwhehehennn thththe beeelililiefs are misund
that God is the arbiter or ultimate ground
means there are gonna have to be checks and balances within our
belief system.
Attendee:
I think [name?] question may be more specific...
Attendee:
I...you’re exactly right. Also, kind of the flip side of
survival religion versus the why be Jewish...
Irwin Kula:
Good, right, and these are, again, all...every time, it
seems like every time I’m talking to you, we always find the
what, what we call again the dialectic. We got one side but it’s
left to the extreme, you need a corrective. So I think that
that’s a very good point, a very good point. What we can say is
that all cultures do have senses of morality. In all cultures
murder is wrong, it’s just how you define murder. In all
cultures theft is wrong, it’s just how you define theft. So
there is some kind of ground of morality that transcends the
human mind, Prager would say. And that...fundamentally is that
God exists.
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
56
u’re exactly right. AAAlsllso, kind of the flip
ligiooonnn veveversrsrsususus ttthehehe wwwhyhyhy bbbe JeJeJewiwiwishshsh.......
riiight, ananandd d thttheseseseee araa e,e,e, aaagaaaininin,,, alalll.l.....every ti
evvvery timmme I’’’m taaalklklkinining gg tototo yooou,,, wwwe always fi
we call agaaaininin thehehe dddiaiaialelelectctcticicic. WeWeWe got one sid
extrtrreme,e,e, you neeeeeed d d aaa cococorrrececectttive. Sooo II ttthink
ry goododd pppoioiointnn , a veryryry gggood point. WWWhahahat we c
ltures do hhhavavave ee sess nses offf mooorararalililitytyty. In all c
rong, it’s juststt hhhowowow yyyououou defffininine murder. In a
eft is wrong it’s just how you define thef
Okay, so, any, any arguments? [1:05:00] I mean, I don’t
wanna, I don’t wanna put anything on the board that this group
doesn’t come to consensus about. Alright.
Attendee:
I can’t really [distant from microphone...] It seems to me
that even if you take a complete atheist viewpoint, if you still
accept the moral system, if you still understand the wisdom, the
behavioral patterns that are dictated by reading and
interpreting what the Torah is saying to you...
Irwin Kula:
Uh huh.
Attendee:
...you can still be a wonderful Jew. I mean...I’m not
saying that God does or doesn’t exist, I’m just saying that it’s
not necessarily the ultimate decision making factor.
Irwin Kula:
Okay, so you’re saying, let’s have two lists. Let’s have a
list of things that are necessary, right, you know necessary and
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
57
f yyouo take a compleletetee aththeist viewpoint,, if
moral system, if you stsstiiill understand the w
patteeernrnrnsss thththatatat aaarerere dddicicictatatated dd bybyby rrreaeaeadididingngng and
g whaaattt tht eee TToT rararah isss sssaayining tototo yououou....
.
can stititillllll bbbe a wonddderererfuff l Jew. I meaeaeann...I’m
God does ooorrr dododoeese n’’’tt exiiist,t,t, III’m’m’m jjjust saying
rily the ultimaaatetete dddecececisisision mmamaking factor.
sufficient. There are two different kinds of things. But let’s
have a list, let’s have a list of things that are absolutely
necessary, and let’s have another list of things that [1:06:00]
we strongly recommend. Okay? You can have a person who buys into
the whole system, who says, “well, this is a morality that rules
me, individually. It makes sense to me, individually. It seems
like what goodness is, to me, individually. And therefore, I am
going to adopt it.” And that person surely is a good Jew.
Attendee:
How can you be a good Jew if you don’t believe in the Ten
Commandments?
Irwin Kula:
No, he said, he’s saying just the opposite. He’s saying,
believe in the Ten Commandments, okay. It doesn’t say in the Ten
Commandment that God gave him, that that’s one of the things you
have to believe. Says, believe in all the actions, here, here’s
what he’s saying....I think this is what you’re saying, that you
have a human being who...is born Jewish, let’s say that way,
okay, who observes most of the rituals and, and ethical
practices of Judaism, and believes that they’re, that they’re
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
58
ooddnen ss is, to me,, ininndidd vividually. And thereref
opt it.” And that perrrssson surely is a good J
n you be aaa gogogoodoo JJJew iiifff youuu doon’n’n’t bebb lieve in
s???
saididd, hehehe’s sayinii g gg jujujuststst ttthehehe opposittte.e.e. HHHe’s
the Tennn CCComomommamm ndments,s,s, oookay. It doooesssn’n’n’t say
that Godd gggavavave ee hihh m, tthhhatt ththhatatat’s’s’s ooone of the
ieve. Says, belellieieieveveve iiinnn all thththe actions, her
aying I think this is what you’re saying
really valuable, and they move him individually, and he adopts
them because individually they sound right, they [1:07:00] may
even give him pleasure...But the person says, “listen, God...uh,
creation of man, we happen to be, we were a kind of people that
really worked hard, working out a system that would be for the
betterment of man, it came out of our own minds...And it’s a
good system...God? Don’t need God.” And that person would be,
what you’re saying, that person I think we would say
is...Jewish, and a good Jew. Maybe even a great Jew, maybe we
need more Jews like that. Is that, did I, fairly, did I do it?
Attendee:
Yeah...you keep running it through, you get to some real
intellectual abstract concepts, maybe that’s how you [unclear]
God exists, but...um...
Irwin Kula:
By the way, that’s not...so radical. Right? Mordecai Kaplan
said, “supernatural God? What are you talking about?! Come on,
guys, it’s time to grow up...” Okay, by the way, he was very
hard on people who studied at temple [1:08:00]. Most of the
peop-, he taught at the seminary forty years, most of the peop-
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
59
...GoG d? Don’t need d GoGood.dd ”” And that personn wo
saying, that person III ttht ink we would say
, anddd aaa gggooooooddd JeJeJew.w.w. MMMayayaybebebe eveveven nn aaa grgrgreaeaeattt JJew, m
ews likikike thththaata ... Is ttthahahatt, ddiddd III, fafafairii lylyly,,, did
.yyoyou keeppp rrrunnnniiinggg iiittt thththrooouuughhh, yooou get to so
l aaabstract cococoncnn epepptststs, mamamaybybybeee thhhatatat’’’s how yooou [
but.t....umumum...
way, that’s nooot.t.t......sososo rrradicccalalal. Right? Morde
rnatural God? What are you talking about?!
the, which is a conservative movement, and most of the people
who were in the seminary in the forty years that he taught came
out of Yeshiva. And I from what I hear, and I obviously never
studied with Mordecai Kaplan, what he would do in the first
three or four weeks of the class, would abuse anyone who
believed that God dictated the Torah. Abuse people! He would
call them, “you’re stupid!” And then he would reconstru- and in
the last half of this year he would reconstruct, reconstruction
there, he would reconstruct Jewish beliefs, based on the
understanding that all peoples have beliefs, that the beliefs
come from the internal dynamics of a people, or what he called
the civilization, that’s how civilization is created. They come
from the inside, there’s a people’s ethos, a people’s...they’re
the things that make us up as people. And that God is the power
within, that pushes towards goodness, that pushes towards
[1:09:00] perfection, that pushes towards development of
civilization. That is not, by the way, probably most Jews
believe a God kind of like that, shows the influence Kaplan’s
beliefs had. So...complete rejection of...that’s why they burned
his books, by the way. Lot of people didn’t like that idea!
Attendee:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
60
“yoou’u re stupid!” AnAnd d ththt enen he would reconsnstr
lf of this year he wooouluuldd d reconstruct, recon
ould rererecococonsnsnstrtrtrucucucttt JeJeJewiwiwishshsh belelelieieiefsfsfs, bababasesesedd on t
ng thhhatatat allllll peoeoeoplesss hhhaaveee belililieeefs,s,s, thahahattt the
he internnnalaa dddynyy amamamics ofoo a pppeooplplple,, or what h
atttion, thththatatat’s’’s hhhowowow civivivilililizzzatatatioioion isiss cccreatedd.
siiide, theeereee’sss aaa pppeoeoeoplplple’e’e’s eeethhhosss, a people’’’s.
thaaat make uuusss upuu aaasss pepepeopopoplelele... Annnddd ttthat God is
t pususshesss towardddsss gogogoodododnenenessss,,, ttthat pussshehehesss towa
erfectitiiononon, thtt at pushehehesss towards deeeveeelololopment
n. That isss nononot,t,t, by thththe way,y,y, ppprororobababablb y most J
od kind of likekee ttthahahat,t,t, ssshowsss tthe influence K
So complete rejection of that’s why t
I, I have a problem. I know God, I mean I believe, I think,
that God exists. But he’s not always there. I mean, I don’t
understand the concept of the Holocaust where, you know, God
said, it’s a war, it’s what man did to man. You know? I think he
should have been there. I mean, I guess, I was disappointed in
God that he didn’t do something. I know half the people came out
saying their faith made them survive. I think I would have been
one of the ones coming out saying, you know, where was God when
we needed him?
Irwin Kula:
Good, very honest.
Attendee:
So, I have a problem with [1:10:00] his always being there.
Irwin Kula:
Okay, so you’re, you’re saying, if I can rephrase, that,
you’re not going to take, it’s not that you don’t say God
exists, is that you’re very troubled by God’s hiding, okay, what
Buber called – by the way, I’m using all these names, not to
show off at all, I’m using all these names because these are the
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
61
r ffaia th made them ssurrrvivv veve. I think I woululd
ones coming out sayininnggg, you know, where was
im?
veeery honeneneststst.
have a prprproblem wiww ththth [[1:1:1:101010:0:00000] his aaalwlwlwayayays be
so you’re, you’u’’rerere sssayayayinining, iiifff I can rephrase
going to take it’s not that you don’t say
people who struggled with beliefs, and it’s those struggles that
determine the kind of Jewish people we are. That’s what I’m
trying to get across; that’s only reason I’m using these names.
Martin Buber called that the eclipse of God. What’s an eclipse?
Hidden, right? Richard Rubenstein called it the death of God.
Mordecai Kaplan, who really could never deal with the issue of,
of the Holocaust, in a sense what he would say was, “hey listen,
guys, you know, there comes a point where God hides himself so
much...if God hides himself [1:11:00] 99.99999999 percent of the
time, you know that’s not such a big difference between that and
a hundred percent.” If he hides himself a hundred percent of the
time...for all practical purposes what? For all practical
purposes what? Don’t worry I [unclear]...Doesn’t exist. So, the
problem of evil has really been a serious problem. In the Bible
they have the problem of evil, too. What’s the book that deals
with the problem of evil? [audience response] Good, Job. Right?
So, this is not a new problem, the problem of evil, and it’s
really, it’s really agitated the Jewish people. So we’re saying
is...so, you’re saying a hiding a God, you’re saying a God
that’s a very different kind of God, a kind that maybe emerges
within you as opposed to a supernatural God. Then we have those
who say a supernatural God...
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
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cauusts , in a sense wwhahaattt hehe would say was,, “h
now, there comes a poooiniintt t where God hides hi
od hiiidededesss hihihimsmsmselelelfff [1[1[1:1:1:11:1:1:00] 999999.9.9.99999999999999999999 perc
now tthahahat’t sss nnnott t suchhh aaa bigig dddifififffferererencnn eee bebb twee
ercent.” IfII hhhe ee hihihides hihh mselelelf aaa huuundnn red perc
allll practctcticicicalaal pppurururpopp sesesesss whhhatatat??? FoFoForrr alalall praccti
attt? Don’tt t wwow rrrryyy III [u[u[uncncncleleleararar].......Doooesssn’t exiisi t
eviiil has reeealalallyll bbbeeeeeennn aaa seseseriririouuusss ppproblem. In
he prprroblelelem of evivv l,l,l, tttoooooo. Whhhat’s theee bbbooooook th
oblem ooof ff evevevilii ? [audieieiencncnce responseee] GoGoGood, Jo
not a newww prprproboboblell m, tthhhe proooblblblememem ooof f evil, an
s really agitatattededed ttthehehe JJJewissshhh people. So we’
u’re saying a hiding a God you’re saying a
Attendee:
What’s the different in what Ellen’s talking about and what
we [1:12:00] read in Genesis? Where God gives and takes away...I
mean that’s been going on...
Irwin Kula:
The hiding, and the presence, and the hiding, and the
presence? Okay…
Attendee:
I mean yesterday we talked about...
Irwin Kula:
Right, I think that that’s a fair reading of the text. Yitz
Greenburg, modern Jewish philosopher, completely agitated about
Jewish beliefs, what does he say? He says that God hides, not
God hides, God steps back, [Hebrew] is to, uh, contract. God can
keep stepping back, and as he steps back, we have more power,
right? Just like a parent continually steps back from his child
so his child can do what? Grow up. And a parent who does not
step back on a child, what do they do to that child? What?
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
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ding, and the presenccceee, and the hiding, and
kay…
yyyesterdadadayyy wwwe tttalalalkekk d d d abababouuuttt.......
I ththhink k k that ttthahahat’t’t’sss aaa fafafairrr readinggg ooof f f the
modern JeJeJewiwiwishss philosososophphpher, compleeeteeelylyly agita
efs, what dddoeoeoesss hehh say?? HHe sssayayaysss thththat God hid
God steps back,k [[[HeHeHebrbrbrewewew] isss tto, uh, contrac
ng back and as he steps back we have more
Smother that child; that child becomes pathological. So
[01:13:00] [distortion, recording skips]...God continuously
steps back.
Now why is Yitz criticized so vehemently by so many people?
Because take that to its logical conclusion. If I keep stepping
back, where am I gonna wind up? Out. That’s, that’s why he’s
considered by some people a heretic. ‘Cause the logical
conclusion of the statement is that God, first of all like all
parents, what happens to all parents, no matter what? They die.
So the logical conclusion of Yitz’s statement, and he fights
this, but his logical conclusion, he just has to live with it,
is that God dies. And ultimately we become mature, fully
responsible, powerful human beings, with infinite dignity and
infinite...value, and recognize that about each other.
Attendee:
The problem I have in terms of the issue of a God
intervening in history is that I’m, personally [1:14:00] feel
very bad and angry about the Holocaust, but I don’t feel angry
about my sense, about God. I’m angry at my parents’ generation
that they didn’t do everything they could have to have prevented
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
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by sos me people a hehereeetitt c.c. ‘Cause the logigica
of the statement is ttthahhatt t God, first of all
at haaappppppenenensss tototo aaallllll ppparararenenents,,, nonono mmmatatatteteterrr wwhat?
cal cconononclc usususiiionn n of YYYitititzz’ss statatateeemenenent,tt aaandnn he
is logicaaalll cococoncnn lululusionnn,, he jjjusttt haaasss to live
dddies. AnAnAndd d uluultititimamamatett lylyly wwwe bebebecococomeee mmmatatature, fful
, ppowerfuuul huuumamaan bebebeininingsgsgs,, wwwittth infnfnfiiinite diiign
valllue, and rererecocc gngngnizizizeee thththatatat aaaboooututut each othheher.
oblem I hhavavaveee ininin terms offf ththheee isisissususue of a God
in history is thththatatat III’m’m’m, pepeerrsrsonally [1:14:0
d angry about the Holocaust but I don’t fe
it, or mitigated it, from happening. I don’t, in terms of my
worldview, I didn’t expect...
Irwin Kula:
...God to...
Attendee:
...that God would have blown up the railroad tracks to
Auschwitz. In my opinion, men were capable of blowing up the
tracks to Auschwitz, and unfortunately, they didn’t!
Irwin Kula:
Okay, great. So in other words, God...the Holocaust is not
a theological problem for you at all. [Attendee responds: No!]
It’s a man problem.
Attendee:
Yeah, it’s a hundred percent a man problem.
Irwin Kula:
Good. By the way, that’s a, that’s a very powerful
response. Right? I mean that’s what [1:15:00] Eliezer Berkowitz
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
65
t God would have blowwwnnn up the railroad trac
In myyy ooopipipinininiononon,,, mememen nn wewewererere capapapababablelele ooof ff blblbloowing
uschwwwitititz, aaannnd uuunforrrtututunnatettely,,, tttheyeyey didididn’nn t!
grrreat. Sooo iiin otttheeerr r wowowordrdrds,s,s, Goood.....t.t.thheh Holocccau
al problem fofofor rr yoyoyou uu atatat aaallllll... [AtAtAttetetendee ressspon
problbllem...
it’s a hundred d pepepercrcrcenenenttt a maaannn problem.
says, and a lot of theologians say, “listen, an earthquake is a
far more problematic issue for God than the Holocaust.”
Attendee:
But if God was there at other times. You know, I mean, he
was there in Sodom, and Noah...You know, why did he choose this
time not to be there? I mean, when we’ve needed him the most?
Irwin Kula:
And that’s the theological problem. You’re seeing all these
debates about God, it’s great.
Attendee:
But he wasn’t there at the time of the Inquisition! I mean,
let’s look at some history!
Irwin Kula:
Good. So you’re saying that that kind of, that kind of God
response within history directly, for you ended when? Look at
history, history is very important. Ended when? [audience
murmurs] Good. Think about, you wrote a track record...it
stopped when? Well you already said Inquisition, so, so it
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
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bee there? I mean,, whwhhenee wwe’ve needed him m th
at’s thththe thththeeeololologicaaalll pprobooblem.m.m. Yououou’r’’ eee sess eing
ut God, iiit’tt s grgg eaeaeat.
waaasn’t theeererere attt thththeee tititimememe ooof thththeee Inquisiititio
at sooome hhhistory!!!
So you’re sayininnggg thththatatat ttthat kikikind of, that ki
thin history directly for you ended when?
didn’t go past that. Before that? Okay...okay! The tradition
says, and I think that it’s a fair thing, with the end of
prophecy, God’s [1:16:00] active role in history or that kind of
changing history, the hand coming into the middle [Hebrew]. The
right hand, the outstretched arm, okay, coming into history and
splitting seas. That kind of...stopped.
Attendee:
Why?
Attendee:
Tied historically to prophecy and the destruction of the
First Temple...
Irwin Kula:
Prophecy, the destruction of the First Temple, literary
prophecy, talk about, you know the list, Amos, Isaiah, all those
prophets, the eighth, seventh, and sixth centuries, okay, both
post- and pre-. Both post, pre-destruction of the First Temple,
and post destruction of the Temple. Although they perceived God
destroying the Temple. In other words, they developed a theology
in which the enemy was the rod of God.
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
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issstoricalalallylyly tttoo o prprpropoo hehehecycycy aaandndnd ttthehee dddessstructiion
e...
cy, thehee dddesesestrtt uction ooofff the First Teeempmpmple, li
alk about, yoyoyou uu knkk ow tthhhe lllisisst,t,t, AAAmomomos, Isaiah,
he eighth, seveeentntnth,h,h, aaandndnd sixxxththth centuries, ok
re- Both post pre-destruction of the Firs
Attendee:
So what caused him to change?
Irwin Kula:
You ask, you ask him, I mean I don’t know from God’s
perspective. But, what do you think?
Attendee:
I don’t know...[indistinct] [1:17:00]
Attendee:
He gave us the tools and said, “go for it.”
Irwin Kula:
He’s like a parent. Gives us the tools and said “go.”
Attendee:
You have different generations growing up, at some point he
needs to come back and reteach...
Irwin Kula:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
68
. BButu , what do you u ththhinini k?k?
t knoow.w.w...[iiinnndisisistinccct]t]t] [1::17:0:0:0000]
e us the toooollls annndd d sasasaididid,, “““gooo ffof rrr iiit.”
ike a ppparararenenent.tt Gives uuusss the tools annnd d d said “
ve different generations growing up at som
Well, your child becomes 30, right, and screws up...it’s
very hard to come back and reteach, right?
Attendee:
It’s hard to let go.
Irwin Kula:
Yeah, I always wondered about that. If he’s a... By the
way, what we’re doing right now is debating the issue of God,
much like it’s been debated for 2000 years. We have some new
ideas, I mean Kaplan’s is a new idea, Yitz’s is a little bit of
a new idea.
Attendee:
Since we started this particular discussion, we’ve tried to
look at Maimonides’s thirteen principles, which one were we
gonna put on the board...I think the issue of the Holocaust
attacks most on number eleven, that God is, that God rewards the
righteous and punishes the wicked. So probably, for the sake of
moving it along [1:18:00], I’d like to propose that we set the
first four that are listed there [laughter].
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
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I always wondered abobooutuut that. If he’s a...
e’re dododoinininggg riririghghghttt nononowww isisis debebebatatatinining g g thththeee iissue
t’s bbbeeeeeen dededebbbateteted fooorrr 220000 yeaeaears... WeWW hhhavaa e so
an Kaplannn’s iiiss aaa new idii ea,,, Yitztztz’sss is a litt
we ststtarteteted this pppararartititicucuculalalar dddiscussiiiononon, we’v
monidesss’s’s’s ttthihh rteen prprprinininciples, whhhiccchhh one we
n the boardrdrd...II.I thihihi kknk tthhhe iiissssssueueue ooof f the Holo
t on number eleleeveveven,n,n, ttthahahat Goooddd is, that God r
nd punishes the wicked So probably for th
Irwin Kula:
...so you’re ready to accept God exists, God is one, God is
incorporeal...I think everybody agrees, agrees, if we believe
God exists, God is incorporeal, that means that God doesn’t have
a body; that there’s not an old man sitting with a beard, with a
yarmulke and a tallis hanging out up there. And if God is
ontologically prior to the world, that all, all that...
Attendee:
What does ontologically mean?
Irwin Kula:
Ontologically means, from a being perspective. All that
means is that, is that God is before time. Okay, that nothing
created God, is what it means.
Attendee:
That God is first and then he created...
Irwin Kula:
Right, right. It’s just a fancy way of saying God preceded
every single thing, including time itself.
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
70
ly prp ior to the wororlddd,,, ththat all, all thatat..
oes oontntntolo ogogogiiicalalally mmmeaeaeann?
giiically mmmeaaansss, frrromomom aaa bebebeinining peeerssspeeective. Alg
at,, is thattt GGGodoo iiisss bebebefofoforerere tttimmmeee. Okay, thhahat
, is whatatat it meananans.s.
od is first andndd ttthehehennn hehehe creeeatatated...
Attendee:
It doesn’t say...
Irwin Kula:
That’s the creation.
Attendee:
But it doesn’t say that you have to take creation
literally, I mean is...
Irwin Kula:
Creation literally? What does that mean?
Attendee:
Meaning, we haven’t got to the point that whether or not
you accept that the Earth was created in six days...
Irwin Kula:
Oh no no no, Maimonides would say if you believe that
you’re a fool. So, even that was already in the twelve hundreds
[1:19:00]. No, all he said is, you have to believe is that God
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
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doesssn’n’n’ttt sasasayy y thththatatat yyyououou hhhaveee tototo tttakakakee e crcrcreeation
I meaaannn is.......
onnn literaaalllly??? WWWhaaattt dododoeseses ttthhhattt mmmeaaan???
g, we hhhavavavenenen’t got tooo thththe point thhhattt wwhether
that the EaEaEartrtrthhh wwaw s creatteddd ininin sssixixix days...
precedes everything and God cause- and God somehow causes, what
ever ‘causes’ means. Okay, that’s very open. Let’s, so we just
wanna put one to four?
Attendee:
I’d like to give a reason why. I mean, the, the people...if
you look at existence today, and science today looks at
existence today and also how we got to here, the current non-
religious theory goes back to the Big Bang but nobody’s been
able to say what puts the Big Bang in force, so there are, the
scientists that reach the roots of belief in God by saying that
the Big Bang is a concept, something had to put that in force.
So, that’s why, before we get into the qualities of God, is he
merciful or not merciful...
Irwin Kula:
Oh, we’re not going to do that today.
Attendee:
Okay. Not even on number eleven?
Irwin Kula:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
72
exxisi tence today, aandndd scicience today looksks a
oday and also how we gggott t to here, the curre
heoryyy gggoeoeoesss bababackckck tttooo thththeee Biggg BaBaBangngng bbbututut nnnoobody’
whatt ppputsss ttthee e Big BaBaBanng iin fofoforce,e,e, sooo thtt ere
that reaccchhh thththe ee rororoots ofoo belelelieefff innn God by sa
g is a cococoncncnceeept,t,t sssomoo etetethihihinggg hhhadadad tttooo pupuput thatt i
whhyhy, befoooreee wwwe geeettt ininintototo ttthhhe quuualililittties of Go
nooot mercifffululul.....
’re not goioioingngng tttooo dodd tthhhatt totoodadaday.y.y.
Yeah, I guess we’ll have to hear a little bit...
Attendee:
That’s why I think that the first four, the Holocaust
doesn’t challenge the first four.
Irwin Kula:
The same way it challenges number eleven? That’s fair. So,
should just put, what, could...[laughter] Do I hear a second?
[1:20:00]
Attendee:
A discussion.
Irwin Kula:
Okay, we’re gonna discuss that motion.
Attendee:
I want to go back to [unsure], which is whether or not...I
mean, if God exists, sure two, three, and four follow, but even
if you can’t accept number one, you can still accept the rest of
Jewish life, practice, and be part of the Jewish faith, without
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
73
me way it challenges nnnumber eleven? That’s
put, wwwhahahat,t,t, cccouououldldld.......[.[.[lalalaughththtererer]]] DoDoDo III hhheear a
usssion.
we’re gggonononnanana discuss ttthahahat motion.
to go back to [unsure] which is whether o
any particular, I mean you may have a problem, but you can do
it, and there’s no...
Irwin Kula:
What kind of problem?
Attendee:
Personally, when I say you have a problem with it,
obviously it’d cause you some anxiety, because it doesn’t seem
to fit in with a lot of the things you do or things you say,
it’s hard to say Baruch atah Adonai if you don’t know Adonai is
there. But …So, that is the problem, but I think that you can
still say Baruch atah Adonai, not everybody is sure Adonai is
there.
Irwin Kula:
Okay. Not being sure and believing that he’s not there are
two different things. One is doubt [1:21:00] and one is already
no doubt about not being there. So that’s imp-, that’s, right?
That’s a distinction.
Attendee:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
74
ally, when I say you hahhave a problem with it
t’d cccauauausesese yyyououou sssomomomeee anananxixixiety,y,y, bbbecececauauausesese iiitt does
ith aaa lllot ooofff thththe thhhinininggs yyou dddooo ororor thihihingnn s yo
o say Barururuchhh aaataaah hh Adonononai iiifff yoyoyouuu dododon’t know
…SSSo, thatatat iiisss thththeee prpp oboboblelelem,,, bbbututut III ttthihihink thaat
arrruch ataaah Adddonnnaiii,,, nononottt evvveeeryyyboodo yyy iiis sure Ad
Not being sssururure ee anaa d dd bbbelililievininng g g thththatatat he’s not
nt things. One isisis dddouououbtbtbt [1:::212121:00] and one i
out not being there So that’s imp- that’s
Okay, I mean, you, sure. And, and, but I don’t think either
way, even if you’re sure he’s not there, you can still say it
for other reasons because, because you do it, because [unclear],
whatever it is, and you’re still part of it, you’re still part
of it, and it’s the part that [indistinct, noise in the
microphone]...
Irwin Kula:
Alright, let’s put one to four, we’ll call them the God
Principles; by the way, Albo did do exactly that, by the way. He
said that God, all of, Maimonides, he narrowed down Maimonides’
three, one two four were all one.
Attendee:
Wait, Irwin?
Irwin Kula:
Yeah.
Attendee:
For the same reason I raised the issue on number one,
number four becomes problematic.
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
75
t, leeet’t’t’sss pupuputtt onononeee tototo fffououour, wwwe’e’e’llllll cccalalallll tthem t
by tthehehe wayayay,, AlAlAlbo dddididid dooo exacacactttlyyy thtt atatat,,, by t
od, all ooof,ff MMMaiaa momomonideeesss, heee naarrrrrrowwwedee down Ma
twwwo four rr wewewerrre aaallllll onenene.
Irwininn?
Irwin Kula:
Number four is that...okay.
Attendee:
Because if, if, what we’re saying...
Irwin Kula:
Then we created God, is what you’re...
Attendee:
Well, yeah.
Irwin Kula:
Okay. So, one to four either...what did you say, there was
a good, there was good, what was the language you used? It was
[1:22:00] recommended, is that what you said, highly
recommended! Okay, it’s funny to put God in the highly
recommended. [laughter]. Okay, we’ll put God as highly
recommended. By the way, what we do have to recognize is that if
God falls into the highly recommended category as opposed to the
necessary category...it does necessitate heavy reinterpretation
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
76
e creeeatatatededed GGGododod,,, isisis wwwhahahattt you’u’u’rerere.....
yeeeah.
So, ooone ttto four eitititheheher.rr ..whhhat did yyyououou sssay,
re was gogogoododod,,, what wasasas ttthe languaggge yoyoyou used
ecommended,d,d, iiisss thtt att whhhatt yoyoyou u u sasasaididid, highly
! Okay, it’s fufuunnnnnnyyy tototo ppput GGGododod in the highly
[laughter] Okay we’ll put God as highly
of the tradition. Right? Because, it’s very nice to say that
because your Bubbe said Baruch atah Adonai you can say Baruch
atah Adonai, and that may work two generations, but I’m not sure
that will work eight generations. Okay? So there will come a
time where “highly recommended” necessitates very serious
revision in the system. That’s perfectly legitimate! I have no
problem with that. You know, we did sacrifices for a thousand
years, and then we woke up one day, the temple wasn’t there, we
had to say, “uh-oh!” and we [unclear] prayer, which is a pretty
radical substitute for sacrifice. So I have no problem with very
serious revision, but what we have to understand is that the
stakes are very high...[1:23:00]
Attendee:
Let me throw in a, a...
Irwin Kula:
Alright, so we’ll put a necessary one to four, too. We’ll
have two lists. Uh, one person.
Attendee:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
77
h tthah t. You know, wwe didd d d sacrifices for a t
then we woke up one dddaaay, the temple wasn’t
“uh---ohohoh!”!”!” aaandndnd wwweee [u[u[uncncnclelelear] prprprayayayererer,,, whwhwhiich is
stituuutetete fororor sacacacrifiiicecece.. SoSo I hhhaaaveee nonn ppprorr blem
ision, buuuttt whwhwhataa wwwe haaavvve tooo unndedederssstatt nd is th
veeery highghgh...... [..[1:1:1 232323:0:: 0]0]0]
throroow ininin a, a...
t, so we’ll pututt aaa nnnecececesesessaryryy oone to four, to
sts Uh one person
A whole different concept of faith [unclear]...a
personalized kind of deal. Y’all mentioned a, the lack of
evidence [distant, hard to hear, Kula laughs]...uh, the
superstition, plague if you will, in our acceptance of one
through four...
Irwin Kula:
I don’t know, you have to answer that, I don’t know.
Attendee:
[unclear]
Irwin Kula:
No, I’m talking about...Rambam, there’s no superstition.
But he didn’t ask about Rambam, he asked about us. Okay? Rambam,
well, when you say logic, it’s not logical for Rambam. What
Rambam says is there are two kinds of truths. There are truths
that can be demonstrated logically, from premise to premise to
premise; and there are truths that one accepts from tradition.
Whenever there are truths that can be demonstrated logically
step by step, and they come in conflict with the tradition
[1:24:00], the tradition must be reinterpreted, because there’s
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
78
t know, you have to aaannnswer that, I don’t kn
ar]
m tttalking aaaboboboutuu ...RRRamamambababam,m,m, tttheeererere’’’s no supppers
’t asassk abababout Rambmbmbamamam, hehehe asksksked abouttt uuus.s.s. Oka
you sayyy lllogogogicii , it’s nnnototot logical ffforrr RRRambam.
is there aaarerere tttwwow kkkiiinddds off trtrtrutututhshshs. There ar
demonstrated lllogogogicicicalalallylyly, frrroomom premise to pr
d there are truths that one accepts from tr
no way that the tradition can be illogical from a step by step
perspective. There are, however, a whole set of things about
life that cannot be proved logically, or what we’ll call
demonstratively, step by step by step.
Once one doesn’t have those kind of proofs, there are other
ways in which once accepts truth. One, Rambam calls, is
authority or tradition. God as creator, Maimonides, there are
two, there were two basic approaches to God in Maimonides’ time.
One was that God created, and one was that God had nothing to do
with creation. God was just eternal, and there was no- the world
was eternal and there was no creation. That was the Aristotelian
view. What Maimonides showed was that it was impossible to prove
demonstrably, step by step, that the world was either eternal or
that the world was created. And so when he said since there’s no
philosophical proof, let us, for the sake of our tradition
[1:25:00] and for our system’s development, accept God’s
creation, as creator, because of all of the thing that it says.
Right? God as creator says that there’s purpose, that we’re not
an accident. Those are very fundamental values. Right? I mean,
how many people like to think that they’re an accident, as
opposed to purposeful? I happen to have been an accident
[audience laughs], so, I, I have worked out a whole theology on
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
79
r ttrar dition. God asas cccrerr atator, Maimonides,, th
were two basic approaaachcches to God in Maimoni
t Goddd cccrerereatatatededed,,, ananand dd onononeee wasss thththatatat GGGododod hhhaad not
on. GGGododod wasasas jususust etttererernnal,l, andndnd thehehererr wwwasaa no-
and therrreee wawawass nonono creeeaaation.n.n. Thahahat waww s the Ar
Maaaimonidededesss shsshowowowededed wasasas ttthaaattt ititit wwwasasas iiimpossiibl
y, step bbby sttteppp, thththatatat ttthehehe wooorlldl waaas eitheeer
rlddd was creeeatatatedee . AnAnAnddd sososo wwwhehehen hehehe said sinnnce
al prprroof,f,f, let us,ss fffororor ttthehehe sssake of ououourr tttradir
nd for ououourrr sssystem’s dededevevv lopment, acccccceept Godrrr
s creator, bebebecacacauusu e ffof allllll ooof f f thththeee thing that
as creator saysss ttthahahattt thththere’sss purpose, that
Those are very fundamental values Right?
accidents. I feel it’s really great...it is really great to have
been conceived in a moment of passion, rather than preplanned
package, but...I guess for the world, that’s not such a great
theology. For me, it kind of makes me smile. But my daughter was
planned, so she’s not going to be able to say that. But...what’s
more comfortable? That the world is just, it’s been here, and
that’s the way it is; or that there’s a purpose behind the whole
thing? What do you think’s been the driving force in
Jewish...[unclear] Purpose, right?
What, I mean...Everything’s been purpose. [1:26:00] The
most assimilated Jew who says, “But I’m Jewish,” is saying, “But
there....there’s some purpose!” That’s really what, I think,
Maimonides was saying. You know what’s very interesting about
Maimonides is what he says, if you can’t prove it, you’re
allowed to have other truths that you accept for different
reasons, but if you can prove it according to the canons, the
philosophical rules of the time, it must be parallel to what the
tradition says, and you’re forced to reinterpret the tradition,
which is why the whole first part of the Guide for the
Perplexed, he deals with language. All the language in the Bible
is problematic. Give me one sentence in the Bible that’s
problematic to you understood literally, according to the canons
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
80
wayy it is; or thatt ththheree e’e’s a purpose behihind
do you think’s been thtthe driving force in
ncleaaar]r]r] PPPurururpopoposesese,,, riririghghght?t?t?
I meananan.....EEEveveveryyyttht ing’g’g’sss beeeeen pppurururpooosesese. [1[1[1:26:0
lated Jewww whohoho sayayays, “““BuBB t I’I’I’m JeJeJewiiishss ,” is sa
errre’s somomomeee pppurprprpososose!ee ” ThThThattt’s’s’s rrreaaallllly y y what, I
waaas sayinnng... YYYouuu kkknononowww whwhwhatatat’’’s veeeryyy iiinterestttin
is what he sasasaysyy , ififif yyyououou ccananan’ttt ppprrrove it, you
have otheheher truttthshshs ttthahahattt yoyoyouu accept fffororor dddiffe
t if yoyoou uu cacacannn prove iiittt acaa cording ttto ttthhhe cano
al rules ofofof ttthehehe timii e, iiitt muuuststst bbbeee parallel t
ays, and you’reee ffforororcececed d d to rrreieieinterpret the t
y the whole first part of the Guide for the
of the logic of our time, let alone Maimonides’s. You gave one:
God created the world in...? Six days. Right. A lot of people
believe that, and Maimonides, a lot more people believed it
around his- said you’re stupid if you believe that. By the way,
he was [unclear] abusive teachers; [1:27:00] probably one of the
great abusive teachers in the history of Judaism. I mean
regularly, on every page of the Guide, he calls people ignorant,
and he had the most wrath for those who are religious, quotation
marks. He hated the religious of his time, because they accepted
a lot of things based on traditions as opposed to based on
philosophical proofs, and a structured, ordered, way of
believing. And he couldn’t stand them. He called them the people
who are outside the castle walking backwards, and inside the
castle was God. Can you imagine walking backward- by the way,
you know who he said that, those were the people who only
studied Talmud. I think he would die if he lived in Jerusalem
today.
Okay, so, for Maimonides, and this gets back to, this
really gets back to your point, not superstition at all.
Superstition is, that’s, that’s for the ignorant fools. We’re
leadership [1:28:00], we’re not ignorant fools. So, I don’t know
how much is superstition. What I do know is that...Maimonides
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
81
on eve ery page of ththe GuGuG idide, he calls peopople
the most wrath for ththhooose who are religious,
ated thththeee rererelililigigigiououousss ofofof hhhis tttimimime,e,e, bbbecececauauausse the
ings bababaseddd ooon tttradiiitititioonss as ooopppposososedee tttooo base
al proofsss,,, ananand dd aaa struuucccturededed, ororordeeererr d, way o
Annnd he cococoulululdnddn’ttt ssstatt ndndnd tttheeemm.m HHHe cacacallllled theem
siiide the caaastttleee wwwalalalkikikingngng bbbaaackkkwaaardsdsds,,, and innnsi
Goddd. Can yooouuu imii agagagininineee wawawalklklkinining bababaccckward- bbyby t
o he saididid that, thohohosesese wwwerereree ttthe peoppplelele wwwho o
mud. I thththininink kk he wouldldld dddie if he lllivvvededed in Je
so, for Maimoniniidededes,s,s, aaandndnd thiiisss gets back to,
back to your point not superstition at al
posited God because there had to be purpose in the world, there
had to be direction in the world.
Attendee:
So why is it necessary...[unclear]
Irwin Kula:
Why is it what?
Attendee:
Why is it not necessary to believe in God?
Kula
Well, I, I don’t know, she, she wasn’t comfortable with
putting it down as necessary. And because plenty of people in
the world...
Attendee:
...people in the world who do not come forward and say, “I
believe in God,” and yet fully participate in this century’s
activity of Jewish participation...
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
82
it what?
it not nnnecee esesssas ryryry to bebb lieveveve ininin GGGodoo ?
I, I don’t knknknowoo , shshsheee, ssshehehe wwwasssn’n’n’ttt comforttatabl
down n as nnnecessaryryry. AnAnAnd dd bebebecacacause plennntytyty ooof pe
.
ple in the world who do not come forward an
Irwin Kula:
Fully participate, is that what you said?
Attendee:
Fully participate. I’m not, I’m not even talking about
the...
Irwin Kula:
She’s making a sociological observation of the Jewish
people. And we’re trying to create a list that the Jewish
peoples, that we can go out, this group in Houston can go out
and say, “listen, there are some fundamental beliefs that we
have to believe, that underpin the whole system! And if we don’t
start teaching them, and arguing about them, and [1:29:00]
looking at texts about them, the system’s gonna fall apart!” So,
she’s not ready to put that in the necessary...although maybe,
maybe, in that sense, we’re gonna have to talk about it in very
serious ways that should be under the necessary.
Attendee:
But I think...My guess is that no matter where you come out
on it...you can still participate. I mean, when the dialectic is
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
83
makinnnggg a a a sososociciciololologogogicicicalalal ooobsererervavavatititiononon ooofff tthe Je
we’reee tryiyiyinnng ttto crrreaeaeatte aa lisisisttt thththataa ttthehh Jew
at we cannn goo ouoo t,t,t, thiiisss grouououp ininin HHHouoo ston can
isssten, thththererereee ararareee soss mememe fffunnndadadamemementntntalalal bbbeliefss t
ieeve, thaaat unnndeeerpppininin ttthehehe wwwhhhollle syyysttet m! Anddd i
inggg them, aaandndnd argrgrguiuiuingngng aaaboboboututut ttthehehemmm, and [11:1:29
textstss abobobout themmm, ttthehehe sssysysystetetemmm’s gonnnnaaa fafafall a
eady tooo pppututut that in ttthehehe necessaryyy...a.a.althoug
hat sense, wewewe’r’rreee gonna hhhaveee tttooo tatatalkl about i
s that should bbbeee ununundedederrr the nnenecessary.
all done, you’re still gonna be able to participate without
making that leap of faith to “God is this,” in whatever form, be
it active in history, be it passive in history, be it through
humans, be it humans determining what direction we’re going by
ourselves without God telling us. I mean, you may come back and
redefine it in places, it may end up as commandments when it’s
all done. But, to start with that as the premise, you turn off,
I don’t know if it’s 20% or 80%, but it turns away a whole lot
of people who can be actively involved in this thing called
being Jewish.
Irwin Kula:
Okay, I think that, what I’d like to do is this [1:30:00].
I’m gonna try to get, I always like to create the consensus. I
think what we can do is this. It is...I’m gonna cross out highly
recommended, that’s too complicated anyhow. What I’m gonna do,
is I’m gonna put one to four necessary, but...but what I’m gonna
put is “redefinition,” “reinterpretation,” “...of God.” If on
the agenda for leadership of the American Jewish community, and
leadership of Jews, what’s necessary is some redefinition,
reinterpretation, reevaluation, of God’s role in the whole
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
84
ut, to start with tthahaattt asas the premise, yoyou
w if it’s 20% or 80%%, bbut it turns away a w
ho caaannn bebebe aaactctctivivivelelely yy inininvovovolvededed iiinnn thththisisis ttthhing c
h.
I think ttthaaat,,, wwwhaaattt I’I’I’d dd lililikkke tooo dododo is thisss [
ry to get, III alaa wawawaysysy lllikikikeee tototo cccrerereaaate the cccons
we cacaan dododo is thhhisisis. ItItIt iiiss......III’m gonnnnaaa crcrcross
, that’t’’sss tototoooo complicacacateteted anyhow. Whhhatatat I’m g
a put one tttooo fofofouuru necessaryryry,,, bububut.t.t...but what
efinition,” “reeeinininteteterprprprereretatiiioonon,” “...of God.
for leadership of the American Jewish commu
scheme of things. That, I think, is what UJA is doing by giving
you a half hour of covenant. Gary, you...?
Attendee:
I just want to say, one to four are the anchors to
everything, but without...
Irwin Kula:
But that’s, I’ll just, so you know...[1:31:00]
Attendee:
Now it’s not that [unclear] It’s all...I agree with Prager,
what’s good for you is good for you, what’s good for me is good
for me, there’s no reason for future generations to go along and
follow the Commandments, because there’s nothing to tie them.
[unclear; distant from microphone]...but, you know, the majority
of cultures...[unclear] Christian do the same thing, and is
still a good person. Absolutely true. There’s got to be an
anchor to everything and that’s what that is and that’s why if
it’s necessary to let that go, then we’re gonna let everything
else go with it.
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
85
at’s, III’l’l’llll jujujuststst,,, sososo yyyououou knononow.w.w.....[111:3:3:31:1:1:000]
’sss not thththatatat [[unununclclcleaee r]r]r] IIIt’sss alalalll.....III agree wi
ffof r you isss gggooood fofoforrr yoyoyou,u,u, whhhatt’t sss gggood forrr m
re’’’s no reaaasososon nn fofofor rr fufufutututurerere gggennnerereraaations tooo go
Commamaandmemements, bbbecececauauausesese ttthehehererere’’’s nothiiingngng ttto ti
istant frfrfromomom microphononone]e]e ...but, yooou knknknow, th
...[uncleararar]]] ChChChrirr sttiiian dddo ttthehehe sssamamame thing, a
d person. Absolollutututelelelyyy trtrtrue. ThThThere’s got to b
verything and that’s what that is and that’
Irwin Kula:
Okay. We have two [unclear]...We’re gonna move on. We have
two different opinions. They really, what makes them similar is
that, what you wanna do is say God may well be the anchor but if
we talk about that right now without really understanding
people’s values and grappling with redefinitions and all that,
we are gonna turn off a lot of people, and recognizing that
we’ll end up excluding a lot of people who aren’t good Jews.
Okay, so what I’m calling for [1:32:00] is a serious commitment
to begin to talk about this belief. ‘Cause there’s a lot to talk
about. Last comment on this then we’ll move on.
Attendee:
I don’t necessarily [unclear]. I mean I am more comfortable
with saying, teach ‘em um, what exists already, not each
generation reinterprets, um, you know, you say...[unclear]
Irwin Kula:
No, no, I didn’t say that...But Maimonides’s God was
different from Rabbi Akiva’s God, wasn’t it?
Attendee:
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
86
a tturu n off a lot ofof pppeoee plple, and recognizizing
p excluding a lot off pppeople who aren’t good
at I’m m m cacacallllllinining g g fofofor rr [1[1[1:3:3:32:000000]]] isisis aaa ssserereriious c
talkkk aaabobb ututut thihihis beeelililieef. ‘Cauauause ttthehh rerere’s a l
comment onoo ttthihh sss thennn we’llllll mmmovovove onoo .
t nnnecessariiilylyly [unununclclcleaeaear]r]r]. III meeeananan I am morrre c
, teaaach ‘‘‘em um, whahahattt exexexiisistststs alreadydyy,,, nononot ea
reinterrrprprpretetets,ss um, yououou kkknow, you sssayyy.....[uncl
I didn’t say that But Maimonides’s God
I don’t know.
Irwin Kula:
Take a guess.
Attendee:
What did you say?
Irwin Kula:
Maimonides’s God was very different. Surely Maimonides’s
God was very different than Moses’s God.
Attendee:
Different in what respects? [unclear]
Irwin Kula:
No, that, creator...Omnipotence, omnipotence is not a given
in the Jewish tradition [1:33:00]. Kreska said God wasn’t
omnipotent, that God gave [unclear]...says that God’s not
omnipotent, God gave up one of his powers when he created man,
gave him freedom of will. So, see we gave one understanding of
God that’s kind of the supernatural, all powerful, all
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
87
id yoy u say?
ides’sss GoG ddd wwwasss veryyy dddiiffefferentntnt. SuSuSurerr lylyly Maimo
y differeeentnn ttthahh nnn Moseees’ss s GoGoGod.
enttt in whattt rrresee pepepectctcts?s?s? [[[unununclclcleaaar]r]r]
at, creatororor...OO.Ommnm ipii totence,, omomomnininipopopotet nce is n
sh tradition [111:3:3:33:3:3:000000].].]. Kreeeskskska said God was
that God gave [unclear] says that God’s
knowledgeable God, but there are a lot of different definitions
of God. That’s what...and I don’t mean to say that redefinition
means that it’s a brand new God! All I’m saying is that the
possibilities of understanding God are so unbelievably wide that
we’ve just begun to understand God. That’s all. I don’t mean to
say that it’s going to be a radically different God, or it’s not
the same God. It’s just...
Attendee:
You know what might be a better way of looking at it now,
it helps me with it...
Irwin Kula:
Okay.
Attendee:
God is God, and God is, is beyond our comprehension of pre-
destiny and what it’s all about. We may approach him in
different ways and maybe [unclear] between generations, but the
entity God has got to be transcendent [1:34:00]...
END OF AUDIO FILE [01:34:05]
Herbert A. Friedman Collection, C-7405 to C-7406. American Jewish Archives, Cincinnati, Ohio.
88
d. ItI ’s just...
ow whatatat migigighhht bbbe a bebebetttereer wayayay offf loll okokokinii g at
with it.......
God, andd GGGododod iiis,ss iiis bbbeyondndnd oooururur cccomprehensi
what it’s alll abababououout.t.t. WWWe maaayyy approach him i
ays and maybe [unclear] between generations
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