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- 116 -YOU'ft t~14 us that tl»re were lllllre t ~O pao;>le
at tI» t 1 • ..ere there fl'1 ore t n ~O )?Cople? -
:aD,)' more than ~ •
ow, I uat Sa)' JOu vere a b1t nc", as to vbo went
orr 'to tile III tine with JO . 1 \."lllIt JOu to teU us. ct17
v to happell8d after .tutu aDd Eal1pa had 001:18 to r tah )'C1: .
-- IIIf hOuse we wnt to 'f1mka treat .
60 .tram there you vent to filllka .. treot . - !ea.
t T1mka Stroet we co1lll~t ace d 1 and 4 and Howard
as he with aeeusad 1 and 41 - , we want to tile
ileUM or lroward Y.a a rite d bill t re .
eOWl:1nc tc o. 1 ud 4' s place. did JOU actually
&0 1 to the he ? - round tham ill the .tr at aad tllen
they vent vith us .
ADd whla 701:1 arr1ftd ct 'Oward' s ho • thlre vue tift
or you in aU, there va. tutu, 1ta11pa. JOU. aceased • 1
aDd aCC1:I" • It-. - res. ow. did you t1Dd aN Ha ball&ll wide h1a house or
did you r1Dd b1a outside h1a bouse' - Us vas outside the
hoU!:. in the yard •
• t is his eddr .. " - I don't the IlUIIhar. bllt
I oan point O1:It tbe h:.ual .
Do JOn know the streat? - 1'1cI:a troet .
° when JOII collected Mard banp, thin vere Biz
or 70 . - Yes .
Then JOU 1I1Il1t orr to tbe Stlldi 1 - From there .,.
\,eot to retch aoclIHd o. 2.
1d JOu t1Dd Il1III 1IIa1dl Ilis house or d1d JOU rind h1IIl
olltaide h1a sa? - I ean't uy. I dl4 DOt ,0 into the
botISB or o. 2. tlltu vent into tile bouse .
DUI JOU stay outside wlth tbe ot rs? - I stayed
outside w1th the otbers .
In tilt atJ'e.~ or 10 tbll TI1'd' - ZI1 t It t. 4rt r 7011 p1cked Il;l • 2, dl4 'JOII eoUlel lUll' othlra,
- 117 - .wg. or cU4 JOu co 8tr41&l1t ont - rroa caused 0. 2'£ place,
we wnt to ccuaa4 o. 3'. place.
peOpla.
0\1 70U all wnt wi4e at 0. 3'. place t - WI
Z'8lIIl 4 et tile ear I' or erguson tre.-t &.ad tutu vent to
retch ccu.e4 o. 3.
III. Jltutu a capta1n? -- Ye ••
Did )'011 actuallJ ste utu .t • 2 accllSGd or did 1011
lICIt! 10. 3. - 110, he lett us at tba corner, ,.. walked on
to tbe shop.
aM .. banp wnt with JOut - Ye ••
, 4id JOu ... t Mtutu and 0. 3, were you JOined by
tutll IlIld • 3 on the VlIJ' to the lI .. t~ place, or ware
you not? - WI waita tor thell at the .ho~ .
be It people who _t out, exclu41nC tutu? _ Tu.
TIley Jo1nad you' - At till shop.
JOu went orr wit tutu DOll. 10. 3 to the tadi ?
- Yes.
lOll VOHn't ,jo1ned Iii otlllra en l'Oute? - No.
Ilow, boW long wou14 1013 uUllata 4id )'Ou walt 8t till
8110 tor • til and o. 3? - ,Ib vas leu tball 5" a1Dute •
arter thes. people JOu'ye apoken about botOH
apart troll! Jollo JacObs, .'JOleph ~at1, llDvard 18banaa,
........ ~ aDd ll, Vho elsa 4id you ftCo£lliae at tba ... Unc'
- F •• ila
Nho elsa? - Ie 't re_llber.
ow, ~id o.:nrard ;aballt8 uit vitb IOU at the 8t1ll&1
- •
bo did be dt wUb llid YOII ... 7 _ 0, I did not
see.
!lid 7011 S • wbare till tour accused sat t tile JOlt tlnj:?
- 0, as va Pit to tba place, evo1'7body lOG' and sUs vhe • he lito,.
0, that 16PP1'11cbte, but I c~1r put tba CjIl8.Uon
to you vbether 1011 saw VbaN the tour accused sat. _
- 118 - J • I.
I d14 not sao wlth " om t 'I sat. I wnt acd 1 .at dcnm <Oft
'«1 plae •
d1d .1011 b'l 8ft'I chance • a tutu and iI 7 4ovo'
- 1 dDt1't know 1f be vas tllare beea I cUd DOt so ~.
OV 'IOU told lUI Ilov Xball a dr.... the .. ating. - Y.I •
'lila 1Il88t1rl,c was opeftlld 1ft the u 1 V8'1. -- Yo •
.. 14\, as 'IOU tolA JIIatarda1, VB t 1m VII aN
tbu atro teat organ1snt1o in outh A!r1cA. - ru. n 1f w 10 to the towll 01' IIII1Vllsre, IDUIIt to 11 tile
people about I\)qo. - r ... ° t1'7 and recruit aBV III betre. - Ye ••
must alva'l8 lock vbere tile W te people keep
their waJlO!lS. - Xc ••
t IISII 811'fttl1n/: a alii? I nnt 'fOU to t "1'7
CaNtuUy. - t.h1Il& $'lae v .. _14\. 14 th1a .atin, laSt 10 ? -- Only tor a abort vIl1la.
4t t.1le aecand .at1.ci&, IaIIJ tuaNll cUd 'IOU .. a? -
I 41d not ta:ta any notlca look abOut tor cuaN8 at tile
1I8CO!ld at1n£.
so 70u 41dJl' t reallt aea rda tiler... - I can' t GIV
I liP ••
ov,wDo dld 'fOU le.". vltl1? - I vallaId out w1th uta.
Only wlt (tutu' - Only tba tvo or 08.
D14 banp At t t meating? - Ho, I
vallt 0 t v1th ltutu a vo walkGd out in :lOtbur d1rectlo •
In enotller d1rectlOl1 • wholl? - torreet, vet 414 not
walk in tbll ... 41rect1oft as tbe otl1llrs.
You 414 not 10 with be in atream? - Xbat'c correct.
I wonder 1f 10U caw o. ~ accused or 8ft'I or tbl accuse4
leave tbu at • - X sav tbu tOIll' accua.4, all or 08
wnt ut of tb8 ~Wlllla at one t • Out.fAa w aeatte •
You 41dn' t Me t bea ,berearter PlIl't1culnlY. - II
W 11M t!l1a ~Ullt:le, 8 4CII't &0 out in one 41rtct1Dn, vo
go 0 t in 41ft.rellt 41rect1OJul •
.", we come to the tb1rd ..... ting. th1a 18 tbo _t1ll1
I - 119 -
.t v lob, Oh, b" the vay there is just 0011 othSl' t •
" • 1lbe11 tile 01117 speaker? - 1' .. , 11 v •• the 0017
speabr •
• nov co to the t~ me t1nll atout y 1bh 70u told
UB, v 10 y a beld at the be, of :arcb, 4 111& the
d87 at the nee place . - 1'18 .
ow bov lonE attar tbe HCOnd ... tiq would JOu U1
,.. • t t~ _lt1ll&7 - AbOut 2 II aka aad :1D the third
veek .
1'bot Val bald durIne tba 40". - Y ...
t w t tim, 110" 01:' lau, yould 70U lIay? - About
11 0' clock 1n the 1IOm1nc.
rou told us t t th15 ,tIng took place on • SuadB1 '
Are JOU Ibsolute17 certain' Couldn't 1t ha,.. b en on a
Saturday? - I ' aure 1t Val a Sa".
c are 70u 110 .ure thet
." aM not • Sa turd.,,? -
18 .. ,t1ll& too .. place On a
I'. DOt to aul'O thet thU
.atl.n& V • be 14 on .. S1lllM7.
Iou're not ~ sura? -
reheld Saturday or S ~al .
caUle the priOr JIIIIet1naB
It could heTl! been OIl a Saturda,,? - PUbapa it ~ .. s
on a Saturda".
I 1 baft got t c none, and JOII.' U COrrKt 1118 it I
be ,t t lip", and lit t ca_ 0 retell JOU. - 1'hat 1J:
correct.
:blat 18 "'''' ' . t1rst na , - I onl,y knCv h1a ••
r;9oP •
ov I vant to deal yUb tba omZ' 01' JOUI' CIOn_nts
II 1ta clalr17. - Yell.
01&8 Ind .tutu CQIIII to r,tch JO . Did the three of
JOu tben to retch accUSlJd 1 aad 4, - Correct.
Did 70U f1ad h1a l.nside 011 outside? - In tba street.
then 414 tile fbe of 10U 0 on to reteb bard bna:a l'
-- Ie .
D14 10 aU &0 Into IIlbancn'. boll .. ? _
- 120 - •
ill the atn.t. IItoto 'IlII t into thD boa.se.
rter IItatu n;:a c_ Irt or tbe use, 4114 tbe
_ people )'OU've apo D abOlrt, 1I1Cl114111& t.~se tvo, &0 ort
to • a' a bouse 111 JabaW treat? - Taa.
IN 14 10U oU &0 1,lto 0. 2' a ba~a, 4114 Ollla or )'011
into • <l's baillie, 01' 101118 0. 2 in the str eU -
~tu wnt l~to 0. a'a boose. \is reuwd uta148.
III the street? _ Yea.
n r ute 1t tutu c out with 110. 2 and 4114 IOu
CO etra1&ht on to tbe t1ll& plaC8 .t the Stad1nm? --
Fl'O.aI there va at. 4 t to t ot1l1& place.
N yo Jo1n8d wI otbel" OD the \1811 -- o.
14 IOu call at t abop 011 the W81? - o.
,,0 10 41 obe" 1ilstrucUo on th1a occaslo . -
0, .... atoppa4 t the 8bop.
~ 4114 atop at the aboI" -- "topped at. tho abOp
and trcMI abop, t1'O£ t N wa ",nt in emU ~ 8 to
tile .. t1ll& pla •
ow ,-oO'V8 told aa thilt 10U 8a' o. 3 t tlle tine
place. - Yes.
a • 3 already t re when 10U arrlvad or 4114 be
VIUI .11'8a41 there.
vas o. 3 with -- ua vas 8lttina next to l17atl.
Joseph aU? - Ys •
101 414 yo sit wUb? - I"t aut. to Dutra
~ 1, 2 and II, did ~u oae wbat podt1ollS tblly
to k ? - hel va" GJIIOllI the other people .
here they e1tt1nC IIIlXt to oacb otber? - 0, t1lll:r
we ot I1tt1n& toptbor - IlJIOlIt tbe otber peopla.
Did 7CU H8 Tvo.amUe lent? - I SaY h1JI there.
OV lOU old us bow OOlo 1ntl>Oduoad th1a £UO:st
apeaker. -- YIS.
1114 he tell you .. bat tile rBllk 01' OfllCg 01 till. 'Illst
.»saker wu in tile P.l.C. or '1.0 orpll1 •• tlon? -- lie vas
- 121 -
• .b1£b orticol'.
Can 70 be.ore 8pecU'1c ab:lut what he 51111:1' - l1li
onl7 8814 a h1ch atticel'.
Was any reterenc. e to Sohanne.burC and bsl1 b1
the CDut apou.r? - Yn, ~ • ret rence to those two
placo •
• t did he fl87 about tha=f - lie tnlt! us tb.lt in
.ob::l.IIlUlsbur&, Durbllu, Cap row tbore is the full: Foree VlI'7
atro •
CDl7 those three plseas' - EllS t tendo.
t d14 tbe Illut .peaker talk about an attack? -
apo ab:lut attaclt, but be , va DO date •
~bDt id ba &87 abol:.t the attack? - Be us t t
I will V8 to Wl the bitn and tben we'U have to
ECV8l'll thII cOUIltr,.
~14 say vMn fOIl ol:lld k111 the Wbite.? - All
oval' O\Ith Atr1c •
Anyvllare in plll't1cl:llar? - Ile said WI (U start in
Cradoclt P1a •
are is t t 7 - I explain, it is 0 8II1II11 I burb
ot rt llipbeth, it is 110 old ailltnr1 •
tben'!' - %bon 'VII t dastro7 the whet. of tile
II ot rt £l1znbetb.
YAls? - tar t t t;is apeaker .. t dovn and 11
oloaed the meat1ag •
• t.:1s to be a mats upris1n where aU this Wl1n&
must t place, start1nC at Cr ock Place tllen aU oval'
rt wlzabotb, 1s th::It a 1:Ia31 att ck by 8V81'7b0d7? - 'Ebat
IIov va COJ:III to till! fourth astin:!.
-h>re 1011 1181'8 p\l11bhe. -- Correot.
" 1012(; arkr the h1rd _otl.llc, 411:1 this tourtb
st1ne taklt pl.ca' - lbout two wuts atter t third
.uet1n&.
%111& lI .. ting 'Will the tVtln1Dg about w t tiM? _
- 122 -
Abo t 8 o'c1cck in the tVlDin{ .
mg.
fl'll IIIaIl7 people IIIOl'fl or 1elll would JOu aa1, vere at
tb1s meat1Dl1 - !fore t!Ian ~O.
at: ;roll told us that t is ac,tint: took placa 4ur1Dl
the v at- • - Conuet.
Could ;rou he a Uttle IIOre apecU1c please! a it
on 6aturda;r or Wlday or an 70U in 4oullt.? - I can't
re :::bel' t.bs clay.
IlIlt )'ou'n quita ar1n1ta tbat it 1138 over the v ak-ead.
- !ea, I'. aure .
I cion' t want to rell1m\ JOu, I a!read.)' baw, lint va
haft bean tflM 117 JOB ph aU t t this lIBetint: took place
4ur1nr; tlla net. - I aa;r t.::u lie tin, va. 0 r tile vaek-
ead.
ow betore I eet dow tfl this, perllapa 1 abo' ld t ~
)'OU tlWl, tile accllS v111 clllI)' that the), attaD4tld a%\1 or
tllasol .... t1.1lp . All tha eecIl!Ie4 will 4aoY 1t. -!be7
at to ado tiro ilia t1Dls .
All the IIccusd '11111 cla%\1 that they vua .. !libel'S 01'
I'bqo aa4 all the acCUlloc! w111 II)' that tlley co1l.llcte4 or
a .. uta4 111 coUect1nr; people tor lie t1llp. - I S87 tlley
vere mellbera, 1 Sill" tllo7 collectod people .
""'" who ca_ to tetcb YOIl tel tbat 1118 tina? At vh1ch
)'DU vare pWl1aheC: . - Ilaa and Dan TbolllU fOUDd me
in f1mt:a .. treat, nan to tile n, in tha .tr et.
tbl way. ;roll 8 &14 )'e starde)'. you tir t 8&14 t t
;tutu CaM 0 ~etch 70U ani! tllen ;rou vent on to
Sill" t t 70u cia II mutate in the _a, it v • act Us
Dan !1'boIIlal and ipo sblwl ,,110 c.... to fetch ;rou. Yo
IIl1&ht voll bI Il1staDll vllan YOIl talk 01' 1Ie1nr; tetcllod by
tlla accused or tetolle4 'tile accllSe4 or He1nr; the accu184
at tlla.. tUnes. - What ~ OJ call the _ or W s Melllllla "tutu was he man v::o alwlIl"l ClIIIII to r,tch
that'. wIlT I a&1d tutu.
,
load bUps? - Irallpa 18 tile person 0 reCl'll1tec! II1II.
- .l23 - mg. 0tI vbon 'ripe Das n and Dan fbo s tound ,.ou IIlttlnl
IlC!%t to a ball 10 T1m7.a tH.t, vbo vas v1t JOu? - I
%ondcn1 an~ P.l: tJ1u, II'Dle PlaatJiea. aecusalS 1 and
aocu .. 1S ~ and ~ban •
ball .
~ t ser.1.Ous SI of this 18 t t Jut rday JOu 414n't
tell ua that 111 nga vas 1t!l you thaI' vllen t ,. CIlIIII to
tetell ,.oIl. 014 10u mlal a I:I1stako in this spect too' -
- rllep. I lIIlISe II m111,'ta ,but ba Wit re.
ow, d14 aU of fOU t t 4Uy, t1po, Dan tho , JOur_1f,
::01l4cn1, Pl.catJ1eI, o. 1, o. It end MaNnp, .U &0 to o.
2'. bouse' - '0, aU of • tbone me who vert littlnl
vitb , va aU, we wnt strai,;bt from tbat II ne to the
l1li t1nl: ploce.
Yea 414n't to to aac 4 o. 2'. "'''''''07 - fas.,..
'ellt to accused o. 2'. use.
lJ;f d14 fOU 1187 t'lat '70 ont .tra1&bt to tile meet1nll
plaCII , -- I d. II a1. alce .
Anothar mlatake . I'. orr1eel about fOll. 014 aU or
JOU co to • 2' S ""11M? - 10. rro thII ball whOre thef
to l1li, W :it atrD1 to t me t plloo. iOt tram
~ecuse4 o. ~ t a bou~.
o o. 2 VU ClIt in JOUr ccn::p lIT' - O. 011 this
d87 vbcn we vara plDbbed, I dOll't laIov vbeth r aoaused D.
2 v II thare bee use I d14 cot, va d1d not &0 roanlS to fetab
him.
, ra 10 Jo1ne4 7 others 011 til va7 to the
tint place on tht::. OCca.toll? -
014 you pause at the abop' -
Cor 8 rev minut c .
o otharl Jobel .. .
lltopped et t shop
yO!' ... pec1tic purpose' - Just .topped there to
1t IlOth1nt as \-'rOne like poUc •
0ba4J J01Dlld JOt: at tha abop? - c .
t this eUn& lOU .idn ' t ••• tba aCClISo4' _ I did
I:!lt &8a the . 1:1 't kncv 1t they J'8 tllera or not .
" CII/, are
1IUIt? - rn.
- 12" -absolutelY t t uke " ... wuloC •
rOil are tbe only on whO llt1Onod tbat.. • -- I
don't IaIov vbat tbe otbers aald but I say III '" 11 lllask on
that clay .
WIlli lot an UI1USusl tl11nc tbat one of tbe officials at
the et1n& .ahol11d be .. 1m? - I kI1Sv !WI.
t bow dld you Itnov It vaa w? -- I racotnin4
bls TOle • •
I The four or 1'OU vbo vera to be punisba stood
nut to eacb other 10 tront Dr tile awanes . -- Correct .
YOII beard t .tnta .. .ee . - Correct.
JOu vera told that a.ob or JOII would cat 10 cUh.
- !he Il l' v II not nt1on8 .
You tock clovn your IIVn pants or d14 tbll7 tate lot dOVl1?
_ I toolt dovll rrs OWIl ..... tc .
t DUlan? _ X d14 not ••• vb3t tba Dtbe1'll d14.
There v 8 an l.Ilatl'1lot1Dn givan, vsan' t tba e, tllat
YOII should nlllOV8 your trousora 0 that ot rs shoull rtmove
1t tor 70u. - IJe tolil WI to 8it dawn and take down 01Il'
pants, Dw told •
Dld L actu,lly.1 you an opportuntty to &l. an
altplenat1D1l as to ,,~ you railld to attalld IZI8et1Dp? -
I/o t VIIS givan to us.
bull pun1sho , I/al the
closed , adjoUl'll8d? - .trtar '1/11 vart JlUD.1£btd, the _tinl:
vas 010 e •
D14 e £1". YOIl ;people 1"urtlltlr wtruct1Dns, the
alldiance . I sbould "1 v .. the II eUIll: eben furtbar
1nstruot1Dns by Dalal? - - Duke tbe told as, be H14 now
va IIIIlSt &0 bo1IIe and tall the ot.bo • vbat bsppened to as,
but he ... 14 it be rind. oat tbat we bave told our CIOtbars,
about this, va v1ll be beaten a&.lo .
~iOJ,::. ell TODZ'? - to DI.
- 125 - •
.ui<Ei<::;g. tirst to~:IO 70n must teU YOill' mothers
ond than 1t ba t1n<:ls out about 110, yon vUl be beaten a in?
- %es .
s that tba on17 1nstrucUona? - hat vas the 0111.1
tructlOn.
, WhO lett tile "".1;1111: vith yon' - I V1Ilko alone .
D1I1 70n a •• John Jac:l I la .... tba melt1l1l:? - o.
1 lut v tbo people vben tbe:r vent up to be pun1sbe4 .
Jacobs e!Jd Zoa/llD1 vua p !abed tol:etber.
B;y tbll V87, I ~ust t to be ole r abont tll1a . You
sdd thAt :lOll took ;rour bU. alo I: to protect ;roaraelt. -
Correct •
.&lid aleo to k1ll o.n:rb04)' who 0 to tile .. ,Uns . -
Correct.
__ :..t..l:.l' I vant to deal v1th the t01l1'th
... t1n& - tbat's the ".UilI whare :rOll \lore pun1sha . -
Correct .
80w tuat ot all, I ~er 1t )'On could 4escribe thb
.. u, .1 ;;ou told us, who D1Ika wore. - It 11 OIlS ot
those lc berets tbe), put over the be d V1tb tb1l II1II&11
aask l.1ka '0111 Famrkaa wbere 01117 the ~s are ope •
10 I"~. beret 11 • c 11 4010.11. Uke that on 1C1l1'
, mao, thet'. a llerat. A berat 11 not a long t!ltnt .
hilt d081 it lool!: l1ka? You know a motorb1ta rider,
.""U.IIIIB be rs tbeso 1al1tte4 caps . - It 11 0 ot
tbese kn1tted caps ;ron put it r1&ht over ),our baad, on17
JOur tac. 1. open, that they put en tor tile co~ .
Do 1011 knov what a balaCleVII 18? - Yel.
II t t tlla t!Wl& you'n tanta, abOut! - 7htlt'" tile
•
lleaausa that ' . t a aask, thllt's a hat, ian ' t ut -hs4 t.!Us t over !iii Ile atld tban ba Pllt tl:l18 llttle
o vbet yu open? I tMnk )'on to~ III .lust nov tbat
,; •
- 126 - =-..a'
• ereS, DO... moutb wna open, it I'. not m1atske •
- rea, t t eorrect, DOS., ),ea a tile lIMluth.
'file 110118, 8788 and t mout VDre open? - Y .. .
;ov :rou alsO told s that )'Ou were a1tt1a& at a ball
-- Ies .
're .JOu aot 117 dt.t1llC or are ),ou stand1lla1 Do
.JOU remembert It ),OU don't re ICber, It ma.l1II: 110 ClUraren •
- I"".. a O11bt tile re •
ow. tIIll III. vbo w re 111 )'Ouzo company "hln you re
stan41a& tllere, v40 vere your tr1ends.JOU re .. it . -
JlullOflj;a, ltt Zondln1, Ula, tJ1ea.
18 111e ? - fila t 18 • pe son v UV811 111 'f1&ka
Stre.t.
lI'ow vllere v s .a.bruign? s be 111 :rOI1r 0 an)' or a
be • db "0& 1IVa77 - lie waG there, but a rav paces
n'a1.
accused os. I and I., *lIara vore tbe:rY a
vere IItand1n 111 a .:roup, the)' vera alao 111 tbe IIp vhera
I wall 1ltan41n&.
t ecou .. " 0 . 2 .. ea not at t • hall . Ia tbet correct?
- o.
Tban J'OU were rete ,.JOu told us I to CO to tb1a
•• t1llc \/bere you were punished. - Correc .
OIl did .JOU collect accUH • 2 or an:y or tbe ottar
I en routs, - II t t plcce where I VDS retcbed,
ve nt to abop, stopped t re tor a rllV l:I1n.utes and
troll there we v takell. etra1&ht to the plAce vllere t!Ja
l18.t1lla VIlB.
Did :rou "acoWl o. 2 en route, perhaps & e hiJa st
tbe ellD;&? - lite met 1111 on tile road ,,'l11e "e vere pro-
c dine to tile plAco or the -tins, ICcused o. 2.
Ileca tbot is hew r Ill&o ve ),our ... idenc., that
18 w t 70 1180 told uS )'uterdq, t t, 1D, to thol
tins, J'Ol! WO collected 'CCl1UtJ '0. 2. ,grn •• on va)' ve met accused • 2.
/
I have it tllat "ve ere t ken to t bou:e ot IIC se4
o. • to the t1n& pl.£ee 111 t
l le" or vords to t t .rract.
L;:';::i!ll I have 1t, W "'ere taken to vl:era o. 2 Uvea
aed tllere we colllcted (J.... That J.s vbat 1 411814, to the baWlS ot ace s 4
110 . 2. - tile vitn.. SII)'8 be ma • 11 mistake . Jla says
tile, Yare talalD tr t t ball iD T1mIul trut, rm4 then t ,
vent to tile hOWla ot accu .. 4 :I . 2 th n toey retolled
ccwsll4 o. 2 aDd then tlley vent to tba IDOl tin place .
C91l'l%1 I vo~ar w _thor that rUDD ea lie .. la7e4 b 0 "I
I ve on notes • vera taxBn to the house ot accused
• 2, theD WI w nt to t!le usual .eUnl ptac . I 4M not
C:lrd wllethar o. 2 was round. but II 8148 nota ben, I, 2
end 4 111 co::pa.'I1. 110 I PNSWIIO that • 2 y s t~.
d • 2 at his ousa' -
3, lie v ,. at hJ.s ba1l!>4l •
.lid did you caPlet h1lll? -- ru, ;II coUecto •
,,0 wbaIG 4id you ~ (.0 trom there? You told ua to
!Ie shope . lG that correct? - ""nt to t shops.
&lid theD to the atiltt; placa? -- ru, • tirst nt
to he -her-, waited t J'G I and than pl'OCHde4 to the IIt1Dc
plaee .
IIov tall me did all the .. people ,» to t IDesting
place, .11 the peop '7 - Yes, all these peopla who vue
\/Uh me WDt to tho lIut1Dc place .
tos, wUle! that DOW iDelude acc\: 01 . I, 2 and It?
t t ~ Yol: to14 'IIJ1 laaroed tr18nl1, , ~ust nov ,
thnt 70U cannot 1181 vbother tllay in t at Dtte~ec1 thll
lleetiDg, Dr wrds t tbi;t .traet. t do YOIl _an by
that? - 110, I 6111 tIley van at thi -t1Dc vbare I
"as PW11ahel! .
Thin 0 last upset . It vaa I'ut to ,ou that C'clmad
- 128 -
2 vas in;Jo 'l".sbul'C in 1962. You of courn, 4en1a
1t. - I de!l1 t t .
Po you by IlIl7 cbnnca know \/here accused o. 2 vas
eI:!p1o,..c1 illIl'1n6 19621 -- lie WftS v1th tlle rt 11zabetb
unic1pal1ty.
Wbat w s ba do1n!;' -- lie V"8 a labollHr tor tbe
carpenter t1zs4 t Bcpoo1 ~t • •
Ila taUs that be vea in ;Joh.lUlu Ul'I. - Ro .
e9',/;. , , I .,e. recollecUoD that enother vlt",BS .lso
'r&terre4 to en accused vas a baodJ1ll!Ul or a
labDurer b Il pe 'lion re trin the roof. of DCboola . Bow
W 10 knOws "b1eh vUne 8 e '8 that, I =LIll< that C!llIIe out
Ullder eXII.'lt1natl.OD 1:1 chiet.
£l.:!!' tI7 reco111e 10 18 tllat 1t 18 the eame w1tnus
wbo • 14 t t . Yes, I haft 1t bare . 110. 2 and a other
I!I8n rho. BClhQo1 :roots tor "be \DlIll1c1pal1tJ . ThIIt was in
h1s • .,1 ance in cb1et.
as that the fi1 • oe e1ven b:Y ttl1l1 v1t",ss ,..ater-
4a, at rn~on'
• ~t 11 haw I ba .. 1t.
C>P!!TAJ "
£51JilIlIl ns wlt1:e • e. n .eCo:!Pl1e • •
.L..!!,,!,!;~~I I want ~ t your memory back to 1962. -
C rrect.
:bere ...,re you in 19627 - T1.IIIka trest , Rev 1C to
Loo t10n, rt IlUZabet .•
Ily tha way, bow old are JOu' - 19 ,ears .
YO'l!' qu21U 1e tion,' - S tel . S. 1Iow, 7011 8.8 these tour 8ccUSe4 _ botore Court. -
I ....
You sae tbe,. .re all num red . - I ' ve ezplaine4 to
bJm not to _DUOD the 1lMl»$ but to call tl1l!!J b! tM JJ IllIIIber •
OIl, 0 70U Ito..v t S8 tOIU' ."C!lS8 ,or 1d 70U
tbaJII in 1962? - I k:lew t in 1962.
All ot them - "U tour ot the •
ov, cUi! )'Ou ever j in tM
I'Oqo I - I d1d .
Atrieatl1ll COtlCl"Oss or
COUld 70U tell UI wheo 10 Join thU orgatli&atlon
- lle,in:Un ot 1962.
011 414 :Iou attend .Un", ot tll1s or&8:]lt t1M re
t .. aCClIH or 10118 ot Mse cuse were present? _
Yel.
011 IlDv IIIllIl1 maet a d14 :ron attend? - our meetlngs .
You a tte Id tour tin a. va "ill brllt17 reter
to tllll tirst tine tbat ~ou .tte e to cat it in tll4
c rrect soq OeCl . - - CorNet.
110 1f; tbe spea)car at tlla r1rst .. et1ng? - Gladwin
11.
196 •
~u sce tllt>t 11 nov all I want to k1lOV in COllllllct1on
with the tirat llleat1ng. mba U ntlII on to tbe JieCC
a vu t 1s ot1nC' - AlIOut tva vults
lDtar t the tirst Doe .
%t-.at :La aleo, tberetoN , in the be Ie .lng or 1962. -
Correct.
'01110 'oIU tbB s.,.,aIDor at tile Acoed lIGeting? -
u . 011 we £CIt to the thi HIIUJ)" that 18 t 1mjlOrta.nt
• .. 1410 tU'7 t b1a, 40 )'On reme vho aC %'I.lICd the
tl:!1r4 llaot1n4? - Ith:IndlO was t speaker and vaa
t 1ntl1'pretar tor aU- er wIlD Ca:M rrom JoMnnuburg.
:r t 111 very lJIparteat . 0 we -bOll :ow deal wltb
the t.l1r4 lie ting in detail . 1rat ot cll, \f n V811 th1a
ettn, held? - Abo t two veeks attar the secC!ld ettn,.
~ ,... tllJt; va. dar i.tI4 the .y. urin;: tile d81 . and tber tON, elllo durin, the he,1Iu1n~
-'
. .
- lJO -
or 1962. -- Correct •
o JOU re !libel' tile day or ek? Ir not, it aa
no durare ce. -- 1'. not too. a, but I tlllnlt it v •
You t 1nlt it vas a SWldIl1 IIJId viler s t'lis lleat1ng
lc1 'I -- r¥a Ford tad1 111 tbe ~UIlBle .
ow boV III/lCY ople IIlOre or 1. attended this atine'
- lO1'8 l.han 50, a lot or t
were ClOre than 5". IJO'iI did you &at to tllU ... tina 1 - - til
caM to retch • ra vera )'OU W tU1 r.tcbDd 10111 -- t bouse .
wen tba1 alon. wben tlleJ ratclled JOll1 - .,
vera w1th acme ot ra . ktutu c:ua 1. 1. bouse to call
u.ad vlla4 I vant Ollt there vera so_ ot r. vaUl C in t
atreet .
What did JOu than do attor 10U 301ned them' - Pro.
tiler va proce ad to Jab VII tNet.
D14 JOu .retcb aD1l1oa, t 1'.1 -- lilt retched lecu ..
o. 2 t l't .
Dnl7 IIccllSed o. 21 - It • tile oa11 011 t aaw tbare .
rroa tbera, "han did 10U 1-
proceeded to the abope .
811 l:l8, did JOu coileot an:r pa pIa 111 JO l' a 1;,
tJlat 1s, I t1l1l1, 1mka t t? - Accused o. 1 aud 4
• collected at ftmka t t .
o now 7011 vera 111 the prennce or, rat 1', accused
lIoa. I , 2 and It vllre 1%1 ur COm;paJIJ . -- Coneet .
And JOU th<l!l nat t the abopa )'ou said. - fea .
And trom tba shops her. did JOu then go' - - fa Kwa
Ford tad1um 111 t 3l1li:18.
bat 15 vhere tha tins vas hald? - Yu .
ow what happened, or vera then people va1tinS tor
TO" rbtln roc .IIrrJv at t 1$ ., tJ.nl plBc 7.. vpll vare already "n1t1a& at t .eetta, place .
•
- 131 -
D14 )'Ou Ha accused 110. 3 there 01' not? -- I S/IV
accused 0. 3 tbera.
Ye., anyttung elsa )'OU wanted to addt -- W B t
wit us, \lUt when I arrived lit the ... tint puc., he wn
elrea 1 tllere.
60 nov va v. the pOs1tion tbllt all roar aecusell
attended t 1& .aUnc. Is that correcU -- Yea.
ow wbat ba;lp8Md at 'th1. _ating' Who v .. the ruat
apeaar? - 11410.
t d14 bII do? - told us abOut t'11s cuest •
hat d14 ba have to DIIJ' lbout tide ,ueat! - IlII told
us til: t tllU IIIll1 1& a M&11 attical tl'Olll Joballrl8sbUrg, and.
he c_ to inspect tile bl'8.'1C he re.
And enyt inC elae tb3t 10 8814? - lbat 1& aU
he told us. _ d14 KbOnUo .tart 111& speecb? - the v1tne.a
allOWs that be raised bia 1'1&111. 1IBnd, palll torvard IInll 8814
ll.ezve r. tbu.
hat d14 the ludiane do' - rei •• d our r1£l1t
hand. elld •• 14 UIIhl,ba in "pl)'.
t d14 tbllt all ",n? -- '1'hat 1& the salute tor
the P.l.C.
Alf:/ lIitrerenee betwHn • A.t •• 04 1'Oqo? - 0, it 1£
OM 1. inI. And tor record arpa .... tlllll wltD/lu 18 01' cour ..
d • .,nstratinc tbe aaluto we d1'88d)' have on reeo~. ow,
who V88 tMs cuest speaker No Johal1:llOaburc? - Ile d14
not te 11 U I tile Il!l or tll1s luost spelar.
Lt Bill rata 1011 don't tnov tile MIDI. - I don' t knOV
1.1la n ....
wbat cUd tide ,lIOst apeater d07 - He atooll up
and addren.1I us.
And before addr ... 1:!I,)'0117 - IlII ra1sed his ri;ht
I pelll fOrward and lai4 Ilezve LetllU.
° M ave tlla salute and tho aadiance repUa • -
. . •
- 132 - tuB ~ •
ow vhat 4 be 8811' 0 70 .. =ber? -- tbis
aaid Iw "as d1allppointe4 to JI bOY tw ... are. Ile t Ilt
t t t is Jan 1e would be tI1ll ot GeJ'll ot ttlia orpniaa
Uoo.
AIl,Yt 10& else' - I aU nothl 1s done there
aecOrd1ne to t!lU orpn1aattcn.
• lIIat '" b.1. llnr. van Qh&lkvyk? -- Daar word n1l<8
",40~n v1r 41" orean1sas1e a. vark hierlo nie.
oth1n: HOIIS to bave In 40 e by the orlt8niution? _
Yes.
fi! :ti.'CVI0I!. An)'th1n, elp? -- T n be add Joha fl8aburll,
Cape , &ut London a!l!! t o~. placu, tbe:r'.. cot verJ
.tronc branchaa thare ot ttlia orcanisat1on.
AII7t line else that .You can re bert - III than told
us va st enrrJ On tr:rinC and reaa1t people 111 too .. treat
and ever,."btre ebe VlI co, tor tbis oreonisat10n.
t\1t 1ng e1aa that :rou !!an re_=ber? - Ile tOOn told
us that in .roban abure, llIJrban,
places tlley ore Just va1t1llc tor t
Whito people.
at London and those
com:tand to dU the
Aayt:.inC olae? -- Th1.t: speaker than a.t 4m1n.
clid be and tlia speeob? -- , ... too lIa1uta b:r
ratain, h1s r1&ht hand •
.lid tba a",11.0087 - lie rep1184 OIIhlaba.
~ than a!ter be .c!~r.,. d t • diallea? - 'ball
t n olo .. d the ,tio wUb tl)e sa1uta.
l.nd boY 414 :rou CO holllCl? -- In _11 croups, two'.
I tbree' B.
k'b,J 111 _11 croups l' -- llo tlut out Bide people do
not len.", tbat there vas s tin there.
And you told lIS t t 70U 110 attended e tourth
_eUn,. 0 70u relllClllber' -- Correct.
ow vbat happeMd at tb1a fourth et1ng? _ I v ..
on S1 WIY to • certa1n hall 1n too loc.t1OJ1. bore I mt JiQ.~ and ThoIIIas.
"'IIsn v .. ttlia? - It Val ebout two vae"-
~ ettar the
• - 133 - t o •
t>Urd meetine.
a 1t durJ.oc the welt or ok-and. - In the we Ic-encl.
libel' the d or the \I.U - 10.
ncl vere )'OU aU by f:lnStlll Or "enl fOU in the proseace
or otber people? -- 1 was y myael!. 1ng to
• female when llalIhlll:an and 1'ho s cama to M.
v s atmwl an4 DaA s aloM 01' wre tlJey
accOIIPanied by 8Iq otber people? - Only tbe two or tbell!
OIl.Dl to me .
Yu, and "tint blippena4? - • y told .., r I!11lSt go
vith tha to tha ..,.tin,.
t d14 you do? - 0_ or tbe otllsr people vent to
th1. beU to cClllect tbB ot rs an tbB three or us than
veat ancl JOw tbose people .
be vere tbe othan v coUect.e41D tba hall, I th.1ck,
as I llIIderstollll fOU . -- &ccund 1 and .. , aecuged o . 2 and
110l1li othors.
all 1118 wbare 10U r.tcbild theae people . I Ya.at to kaoV
wbere )'011 retched 011 . I, 2 aDd .. accllsed . re vare they?
'lh.1ck clearlY. take )'Our time . rOil var retchod 01' ca118d
by an 'l1lOma8 and Baa n. -
Accusod o. 2 all not at tbB beU.
to retch caused Hc . 2.
0, I II. a Iillataka .
'Wnt to Jabevu tr .. t
Xou sae that's vlJor I veat YOII to th1at About thllS8
th1np. I want to start at the beein 1Dt; . :ro~ vere called
b7 Dan 'lbOIIa1 and Ihmzln . -- Correct .
AruS you vere in the vicinity of th1. hall, talkJ.oc to
a &11'1 . -- ha, I V88 ata1l41Dc IIIIxt to tbe renee talk1n3
to this £11'1.
And thay cllled you and d14 you thea £0 to this hall?
-- a ..,t Ul> witll tbe otbers v ° C .. !!'oil t ball.
So YOIl _t up witb whot
~xJlllIl lalo are the .. others you a., cama fro the 11?--
ZOadUe, P1nd118, ollklllolekO and 80 othara .
I Aad v t about os . 1 and 4, _ AcCUl8d 1
- 131t -and It vere alao at t hall .
~.
Yea. bUt vile ... 1114 you meot thalli thaN? - fbty_t
up w1th 1118 aDel llaahll D where wo were 8ta:ld1O, tbtre at tile
hall. !be, vere alao retcllsd and brou bt to .. hare W1I vlre
stan41Dt.
"'I. 1 DDCl ~. II that "bat ,.ou 8I,? - Yn .
ow apparentl1 W8 han a croup or peop1 . - Yes.
, croup collected by be • and allllan. -- :tea .
/I wbotrs dld th18 croup then to? - rem tllere we
proc.eded to Jabl1lu treat to tllG hOuso ot accused 0. 2.
And art r JOu r.tclled aoclu,s4 o. 27 - loll vent to
t .hOpe vbare we usuall1 olw.,. vdted. ,atbared.
:nd 1'rom tba shOpe? - rom there W8 vent to the
Junz1e Dear the Klta FON sta41um.
Is that tba 88II1II place wbare ,ou tlls th1rd ... at1O&1
- the 8 1118 plac:a .
Do JOu Itnow wllstbar JDb!I Jacobs was present at tho
shopS' U JOulre not sura, -81 lID. -- I aaw John ;S cobs
at the ..... t1O&. 1 don I t knOw wbatbar Will tilers berore or
attar 1118 .
-.lid Josapb aU - I aav 111111 wban tbt,. were call.d
up to be punUho •
And ..,l.IIIut lI,yeld' - ro .
Y •• wbat? - 1 aaw b1II tbtre.
At the et1l1&' - t tba .t •
II va now bave thO podt1on tlult tllslNl pIIDpla and
ccu".d 00" . 1. 2 aDel It wera at tb18 Ill)et1n(. - Yoa .
D14 you aea os. 1. 2 and It at t.he ... t101I? - 1 IIIlW
thell at the .. ot1ng.
w t about •• 3' - I d1d IIOt .e. aeCll88d 110. 3
at that _ting that n1sbt.
lias this ..... t1ll& held 1D the dark? - In tile dark .
!ill a.,.. be Catl 't 88,. the U.. but it val at n1&bt •
•
- 135 -
C, ,I. You w re test1l'yillC.and lOU were 181111& to the
Court t t lOU &.:IW 01lD Jacobs .t the _etin:. JOU aav
•
aU when the,. vera pUD1abod. you uw Nelmut at tbo II t1o&
and you D8V 0. 1. 2 and ~ at t t1o&. but JOu 414 not
.... 0. 3 .t the .. et1D&. w tbia et1o& reterred to va.
tbo tourth .t1n&. tbat ia ... t1D1l vbera pWliahlllent W8
a4s1n1atere. - 1bat 1& correct.
4 also a",ilI to Ntresh your _lIIOry. JOU
alao ra_ bor tel1inC us that you wre ratcllll4 tree a certain
ha1l. - Corract.
ow vllllre 4111 JOu asa lmut at! tor the t1rvt t_' Re!lmmlber JOu to14 U8 th t JO~ saw b.bI at the _t1ll&. I:1
t t tlla tirst t1llll that you a v b.bI t t 4.,., _ ""lit
tOllether tro the haU.
Yos. JOu 4111o't. U.., recti 8ft correct. JOU d14o't
ntlDn that 811'1101' 011. that'. will 1'. ult1n& lOU tb.h
quasUCIl. wllere did 70U at 1l1a? - v I wUIl us .t
the ball.
v. you now _uUoued 11 tbe l1li __ or tlla people ,,110
vera .t the ball? I'll te1110U what ""!l'll do not to con
tu. )'ou. I "&!It JOIl to 11118 Ia aU the DalIIBI or tile people
JOu _t at the hall anet U po .. l le, their a lISeeS. ¥II
want 1;1111 nama. and SlIrllS • l' tl1ll people 70U .. t at tl1ll
11 and .'U wrUe tbolll down. I thl~k JOu told UI, rirlt
or aU. that Dan Tho s approached you. - Correct.
And vas acco aniIId lIT? - 'ripe Daabma!l.
ADd troa tllere I th1l1lt '1OU \fQat towards tile ball. --
Correct.
ADd I th1nk you also told us thnt tllen 10U .... t other
PI! opla • -- re s.
ow whO ¥el'C tboy? Do you their nBlDlls aM their
sIIZ!WIIIIa7 - P1ndlla ZOn~.
1 •••
T t 15 one pera • - till. ltUlaltO PlastJ1au.
Iio.t1tulolalco, I SU;JfIOsa IOu .pal! !t alalto, DOra or
ru, who else? - \faQd1le tObe, ZOlale )!e,.t!.
te ••
- lJ6 -At the baU. -- Jotul J coba.
Ac.:I vliet about t!la oellaed' - 110. 1, ~ and 2.
bave you nO'a' "hen tb1s last lilia, Ilelmut k1.-
Is be also reterre to aa olele tl1ek1? - Yea.
A£ain l' III a l1ttle it vorried .. ",ar48 tl11s peraon,
.lobo 38Cgb.. I vant to koov trolIl you to th1nk. -- 1 .. 410
a lI11at.al:a about Jobn Jacobs. • mot up witb Jobn Jacoba at
the .bop~ .
IlO then 70U told us t t theae people aU vant to this
ot1t\; place. - Correct.
n4 1 thInk 70U toU us t t thare tba IIIIlII8S or certain
people re called out. - las.
I !ntOl'lM<1 that TOU haven't 7IIt 14 t t, but nov
ua v t bIlppenod at. tb1s _ tint. - ter our arr1val
at the .et1n&, Duke Hakuta stoo<l up, ra1aed his band atU
cave tile salute, Uu". Letho. repllid IImblabe.
Yea, what bIlppened attar t t? - 'then VII lOt dOllll.
tilea told us that all tllea. people vho dId not attend
tile lIII!leUnca, til:" IIIWIt 8ta~ up boo.~ t "are 1010& to
be punished nov. Jacobs aad I\)'ati than stood up nn4
P!ndU ZO ani, Zale le '18id..
Who stood ~ - Jo Jooobs, P1MUa Zandaa1,
Josepb lI1at1, ZOlele .,.al<1.
, • rn: ' I 111 otiler ,-- lmut.
llelmut yak1. ~ other ~ople? - 'tbnse tOll' vent
torward to pllll1abed.
Tbn vb t happened' -- "'l1ps &'.1:8 tlleo admlnSatere4
tile cuts 00 theil, uke Makuh and ",l1ps P£II odlll1otatared
tile cuta on the ....
t 414 they do? - he" sada thee> 11- down on the
~, pulled down tlle1r pant. and then tile" ad .. 1nlate .... 4
the cuta.
jlullad dovo tlla pant. t - Tiley t,llell~l' Ii puma clown their pants.
- 137 -v. Urat. ont t.o
- Jo Jacobs .
u cut.s? Do:roa 1tnov7 -- I can't remalCber bow
"1\7 cuts.
M do you at all l'8ll11mber v t.'Ja second cna vas t u not., say ao? -- I t~ ... ind1le ZOnlhn1 vas the secoad cns .
o :roa ltnov how uq cuts be receivld? - I can ' t
ma bar.
VIS tile t.hird onol' - ;elalut ~.rel<i.
And tile fourth oae' - Joseph Ny U .
1'1 they tbe on17 Clnea vbe were p1It11shod? - Yea .
'tbo .. vere tbe onlJ' tour sev tlut vere pU!lisbed at tbat
_.t~.
bat ppened after this? - lllIn uke kub aud
us it we va our vaapilna with WI .
an al'llG •
14 70U bava veapol13 - I have a 111811 knit., 1!Iow.
11 6" blada .
An ord1nar7 penltDito or vas it a da& er? - - It 1a a
poekat knife.
° did )'Ou bava a weapon? -- that i8 the 0 17 vea110n
I Iud witb 118 bGcause tllny ca_ end t 7 took me tro1D the
atr at .
IIOv saaiq that ... bUllY vlth the VIISPOlUl, 7 I
interrupt . Tba other .,aUnC' t t 70U attended, the otbera,
70U 0'0', all tile ctbars, were 700 armod at a 11 - - dl
tol u. t tile .... 8t~S, "a muat alvayl be armed vllen va
come to tho mo.ti~" •
• re Joa anaed? - 1 only bad tbis knite I dnerlbed
to the court, t t is the nl1 veapon I •
o )"Oa 1m0il vllnther the other people vno Ilttlndad till ..
• etinp, were al'I:IBcl? -- lie, because they didn ' t produce
t VlIl,ons.
va are bllck on tbe toUTtb '~Jnz, tb3t J.I JIM t.he people vere Plmiahe • hat happened .ttar tlleSl people
- 138 -vare PunUhe ? You t 14 lIS thllt Duke MalNta tbensa14
t >at yot: must allle)"ll eo to ~ tin,s
t solute and then we 'ant out in
r:ned . - lie ,ave
11 r;ro l'S out or tbe
.aUn plac .
7eU _," t d14 the .. pooplo do att r tbey vara
punished 'I lo\I 1114 tbey acU -- Iou coule! I e tb8y wre
CroSI \lacau9 the7 "'lire 10 pain.
:bllre 414 tbey ,07 -- tar tb87 va1'8 p
vent and aat !n aClOn,st tbe ud1enoe there .
ow do you know vheUler any I118l1berl re ever threst8nee!
by anybody to at tend the.. aU I, apart f'l'OIIl tbis dar
vben they " .. ra punls d T - I MYel' be ot Il!l1' tbreat •
D14 you attend any otbar II 8t1o&8 ot tUI orj;all1l111tion
at speakers ae!e!ru ... ~ tbe audience? - 0, onlt
t""t on vbere the aj> un tro JOMn ",sbure B 1'8all84 the
Metin,.
Did you .ttenc! aD7 other II t1n(s or t II orpn1sat1Dn
vbare people vare PunUhe~' - - , oal7 thllt OnG mcat!n •
C\.rblf. rbap. tbis t11tn ... can 8uist tbe Court w1th
the bead ru. ot tba persons in cll:lrC., • Proll8cutor .
13 I • tbere &J11t!l1n1l pacul1er about the beed-
dra sea ot the people presant at tbill tourtb •• t1nz vhere
th ... people vare punl. d' - Duke U :eorlnz vbat he
is caU1ng a halacla"a that nieht .
= ..... 1 1 balaclava cap? - - Correct .
::;.,~~~ 1 And! dlo "lUlt tb1a Itrailht. Can )'Ou bUy •
balacla"a at all.J shep? Or 1&t '. rut it tbiD va7, in IDOst
at tile Ghep . -- I' e ••• n them 10 ll.J shepe .
I an, it il DOt a lIk . -- SOlII8 vere YIlDrillJ masks
tbat 10U can buy 10 tovn, at thnt M8t1l! •
0... vOre IIllsb' -- I cOUld not recQ&nls. tlllla,
because you could not ... t!J01r tec8a.
thea8 witb tile balaclavlI co • 011 •
I oalt recoC01se4
• '1Iar • I:!allt -- l1e s also voarin: a ak.
- 139 -He as vaulA& OM 01' these balBclav .. , tbat'. wb,y I
racopUe Ida.
•
Could lOU •• e Ilia l'aee' -- It vas 4.,.11: .
bi. yo1ce .
I raco il84
Iou reco lS8d bis Tolee . ad WllO alii VOre masks? -
bare vere GOII8 othol'S v vore masks, but I don't MOW t
t JOu recognised aka 7 - - as .
Ie »'11 I'. cot quite clB r all tbis po1llt .s to vb4t r
betbar they attelllled otbu t1ll, •• lso 111 d1sgu181 . -
, .ao poople VON lIuks r lIlre diu 0.1., at prevlol1S
... Ung •
:IS thot the lirat t1lle ... bare lOU ob ened persollS 111
atte anea V llasked their taces -- Yu, tba 1'11'st
t1llll at t~t ... tin •
lOU po.tbapa. to tell tile ourt wbat Vila the
a j,ct of 401.llC tbat1' 0 IOU kDO"o' vby peo'p18 d1l1 that? -
(a, I do ' t KneW .
Yeu baye kD01<ll tbll otbar
vltnaSU5 ill tb1a ease toJ' BOlIIO t1llllt - las .
•
Iou wara 4'tIlin_ togath r 111 I'ort Ailhabatb? - Yn .
0111 10 travel ""11 hera vlth theil' -- Yes .
1>1 JO !scuss tb1s cue wl1Ob. thell? - o.
JOU 1'r1eud.? - t fr18llda, on11 cq,unllltsIlCGS .
rat!ler str lice to IDe tbat acq11llintsocell wllo
are co 1.no toptber tor rather 1OIIg, ill tbase CIlS88, that
tblly Oll't discuss \/itb 0 • otbar the tact tbat thel 8re
witllBues 8lld t sort 01' evidencl that the), are going to
elYa . - - \a d1l1 not tl"\lSt 0111 8.IIOtbar . bat'. wb7.
1 can't und rst&lld that 8.IISlIU JO know, beca_ bow
4OS8 tl>l q .UOll 01' trust arriva t en one had been
Arrestecl, IOU know tbat •• eb. Cbe bad 11r .. dt C1V111S •
• t .. t"_IJt to tbiJ polJ.f!tI. t 414 ,. U MV< t4 {4U !! J.acU!ls1ll;l tl» CUllS witb QJle another? _ I told the P\)llea
- 14 -al14 1 40n' t vant to te 11 tt. people vbo vue tlle« vitll l1li .
t 'bar1D could tbe:r bav. dO!lll you it you told t II
:roar story? -- I on't know the ao .. 11 I oa't lOY
it tile), vlll com to Court aad tell t COUJ't \/hat I teU
tile Court .
to' were )'Ou vorr!s4 about tllat? - I'll :I vorrlod
about that . I only \/anted to COIDIl aad tell tba Court ,,1:IIt
1 mow aboOt thlo C S8 .
Did )'Ou lIiacuss to ather tt. tact that all or you or
ao.. at )'Ou haw IIIIIde at to tbe pol1c? - 0, \/e
don't a ak about thOse things.
klL.w.:1 t did :rou not teU any ot the \/1 S5118 t t)'O
h..~ made II state_nt to tbe poUce' ot \/~t )'Ou bad aaid
10 70ur state_nt. ot the (JlIltents or the state nt but
Just the tact thet you had lIIIlCIe tbe stateunt. -- I told
the .. tbet I I18de e .tetement but not vhat I said ita rq atate-
bla.t .
Xu, but )'Ou peoplo t listeD to thus queatlOtllI,
.n4 1r :rou're not 110 aura what a «qu1N1I or :rou, teU tho
interpreter tbet :rou va4t tba attar expln10ecl to :rou before
you answer to the quast1003 .
D14 any at the thre. otbarll allo Dtion that they
d l14de statement. to the pollce t - 1 told them an~ they
told ID8 that the), had 8 totements.
t lIurely one ot 101:. IIIlUt va .. 14. what U 10 JOur
statemeD . - Yes. you vel" aUK v t:ron 1d 10 Tour
stet n .
bat. vas tbll answer? -- ~ 'I' asked De .
tell the person vho 8Ike IIXI because be 14 not
me \//lQt ha said 10 hill state1llent .
i 414 not
t to taU
iha V/18 the person vho asked TaU - Jacobs and
IIolmut .. laid •
id )'Ou heer one ot t • ° thBn sar v t VaD 10 biD
state .. nt? - 0 , tile,. don't 'p,,/r 6lioot tM6d t'tln&s that tha'l' told tbe police about .
- 1ltl - a •
For bOW' 10ll£ .... re you a mamher or .A.C.! - I
Jowd 1Il 1962 aDd It up t1ll 1963.
Early 1Il the heat' or late? - l!arl)' 1Il 1962.
1'.11 te1k1nc abOut 1963. - Up til those peopla
were arrested. I can't HllIIIllber tile exact ts... You havell' t been C0!IV1cted ,et? - o.
You reaU .. or course U 701ll' ato1'1 70u tell heM,
dUrer. troll ... ha t 70U told the poUce, 70U run the r1sk or
prosecution. - I HIU.I that I can be cOllv1cted.
'fell l1li 1Il bow -1l7 of thell8 tr1ala ban 70u g1nn
n1dance? - The fust ta. today.
D14 70U quite voluntar1l)' 3010 • '.e. or .... re )'Cu
foreec1 to Jolll? - Voluntar1l1.
IIby d14 JOU 30111' - I hurd they told us we Ire
co1D& to pt ocr fHed •
1)14 they tell 70u how 7OU'4 ,at it? - ""4 £l't our
fre dOli by r1&~tlai for it.
You were lIlterestac1 1Il freedom? - I vo.
Both for 70urllGlf I I aupjlOSO, &lld for your people' --
You vue l(1lite prepared to kill ;uroj>881l1 to pt 70Dr
freec1.,..? - Yea.
•• •• (can't IIIIka out th1a question et aU). - • Would 70u deacribe your.elf as a patriot?
I dOli' t know vhettler tb1s IIIIlII Wlda1'1ltams that.
You know, or. laaacs, has to keep 1Il II1nd that the
etandard or lIltelUpnce of tlllase people probabl)' not
On the sam pl.aDe as thO .. of prohebl)' that of 'IDIU\)' others
10 tb1a countrJ and vtlUst I do not Vll1lt )'Ou not to pursue
ttl1s tter, but sittinG here, ,1 tb1nk tbl Alll8ricll1l mtion
reprOs the ... l" .... being the at tHa country 111 tba
world elld ,.t 70u still l"e of freedom rioters 111 that cOWltrJ so it 1a .... 1'1 dUf1eult rea11)' what the vord freedom
llItalls .
I lIat would 70 Ullderstend by freedom for JOur
- 142 -
people? - liB are co~ to &ovarll ouraelvu, 01' rel&n
ours.1 ..... .
And t t was your 14IIal 1tl 1962 wilen )'Ou 301no4 ••• •
- Yes .
18 that your 140al toUY? -
can .. a boY th11lEl • .,.lop nov.
, not today. I
do you say that? - aaye nov at tb1a I!IQIBl1t
be 18 a priSO!l8r, lie 1a uHste4.
It JOu n ' t bflIn arreated, )'Ou at1ll wotlld have
supported P. l . C. -- 0, becau .. tbere were lota o~ people
who wrl urelted tor this P • • C.
IIad it DOt bean tor the arrelts it would stUl line
been tllG II. . - - Yes, it it had DOt bean ~r the arruts,
I would stUl have been the .a .. .
ow. 118 a mllber o~ • A. . , )'Ou would ve l1ed 1tl tbe
1tltereata or Pac, woill fOu not 'I - Correct .
I waat to put it to you tllat you are ly1n& 1tl tile
.v14ence JOu are ltv ina today, part1cularly a8 ~ar as you
implicate the accasld . - I .. not ly1.Dg, I ' . tell1tl, t!la
trut •
WlUClLn ' t 1t bne 811 de!l&eroua tor any _ bel' ot P. A.C.
to d1sa~. w1tb what wu sa14 by t .paaltars o~ • .I.e; . 7 -
It would danproua.
I t!l1Dk it sppears ~Oll what JOu told ua about
till ~ourtb .etin& tbat 1t vas IlII&8rous ~r mbere to
aqy away tl'O!II . A. C • • ats.n;. . - - Yes, It Wal ~
bee: IIH ve uv wbat bappe1l8d to tho.. peop18 .
In tact va lIIard true one or the otber witnesns that
et tb1a fourth lIe.t~ wblre the people ware PllIIiabed, D1lke
6814 I alwayl told you that you vould be pllIIishe 1t)'01I
stayed av., tl'Olll .aUn;:l . - - I 414 not bear 11111 say so.
Ilo JOu deny that be .. 14 th3U - Alrllll;. be
.a14 10 ttl 41d not bear it.
you aay t t you knew the tour ICClW Q Jl1 1962. _ Z mew tIlell.
- 143 - H BAnGA.
D14 J01l knOll t be. !tell' - .. ccuaed 1 aDd It, we grGV
up toptt:.r.
bare' - Ia r1mka treat.
In llev 1,hton? - l&hton IDeation, J\:)rt
Illabetll lltr1ct .
t" • tbll o . or .0. 1 and 4'11 bouse 10 T1aka Su-aU
- 10. U . w t DnmB baa lie . 1, wbat IWIII do J01l know h1JII b,.,
_ I know b1a b7 tbll QIIDI or Dalal .
BalaI, is th:Jt DCCllnd 110 . l's
"hat va call tt:. atreet rlawfJ .
~ otber MIll' - 0 other _s. ~1Ii!l.1 ell, when 70U apoke to h1a b7 wbat IIlllII would 70u
addre sa 111m' - llaka •
bouse .
re J01l eTar 10 his house' - Ye" I kn tile
re 70D w1 I t bouse' - Yes .
'bat Il/IIIIBS 40 JOIl knOll 110 . .. b)'? - IIonp.1.
Atq other na •• ? - 0 otbBr _a.
Do ,.ou lmDv o. land 110 . "'s ralll1l7 1I81118? - - You
WJWlll1 po1ot out tbll Imlse, IlaIIa& bII .
Oadebe? - Te •
414 JOu t t11nk Gade bII vas tbB 1r rom117 1U!l:I8? - I
tbou&llt 10.
Can 70U th1Dlt ot Il!17 otbllr ll4lIIOa b7 "hicll Ro . 1 and
... were called. tall1.17 _ or n1ckn .. t - T r0117
OEta tile,. called aecus04 • 1 at bome. vaa 014800 . The,.
call 4 111m MD al. accu.e4 0. ... 'nIat'a vbat tbll raml17 calle4 the .. , - Tbat ' s "bat
tbll 'all117 called tile ...
t IUl't13M' - conp.
I I tbouCllt 70u would ban
,bao than IIalIIII r1ght 1'roIiI the bII,1M1n&. 1: sal. to
kllOv tile Qalll .. bIlt ),011 _ all tile otbar nS.ckD __ • ~ba~
is tDovo by lad tlleo eventuall7 JOU tell 118 vbat is
- Ilt4 -
h18_. obed7 tr1ed to mislaa4 7OU. -- The 01ckoame.
ut nobodJ' vas tlL71o& to II1IIlaa4 JOu . You eoulll have
,1nn US theso IIUIIIS . Xeu could have •• 14 1.11 tha "l'J t1nt
1rustll.l1ca accuaaeS '0. 1 1s knowo .1 01480n aDd .coused . ..
is IuloIm as ltonged. tlleir aurlll1lll8 is conp.
llli!W;g. we COlDt to Ro . 2 . Fol' bow lona han JOu
tncvo 0 . 27 !!efOH I .. It JOU about o. 2, lat .. put thi.
q\l8stion to JOu. Ire theN .aJl7 hoUl .. in TJ.mkn treat? --
0, it is a short ,tl'eet.
lev e()!ll'.' to o. 2, tor bow 10 .have JOU knOVll h1a' --
r~ 1960 n I came back ho 8Obool. I e~ holl
.TallHnvllle to Port IC.1aabetll.
"""' ..... 1 I don't "" bov JOur P0IJ'tlPiQ' 18, . laues,
but .Tansem1Ue is r1c;ht 1.11 tbD plottela.od .
I for _ 10D& vue JOU at school 10 .T811Senv1l1e' -
Fol' all .., eduoation 7ean, rro. tile beg1on1oC up to 8U. ~.
10 would ba 7 ,.*1'.. D14 70U ever v1s1t aecuaad o.
27 -- 0, Inner 'f1s1ted bU. lie v .. the penon whO
alva7s came to Tlmka Street.
IUa worsh1p h:le alHadT told 70U there aN DO trap. to
the uestlon, I lust 1I1Ult JOU to tell 1111 :Ora 1p wbat __
lOU know 110 . 2 by, that is to a&7 hb ehr1at1lUl _. his
surname aDd his 1em_._. -- I 1100' 10 knov vhat his people
call h1ll, I know b1II by tile nam. ot Cubevu.
Do JOU ~ 8117 ot I' oame.' -- 0 other s, 0017
Cubavu.
WbeN cUeS o. 2 11ve" 1)0 JOu knav7 -- 1 mow lie
Uve4 111 Jabavu 8treet, but I dOll't kIIow tile numbn ot 10be
boUlO . 1 can po1llt out tbe hou .. .
F1IIallJ we ~ to .ecuaeeS 0 . 3. Do JOu knlIv vll3t
oamea JOu know aec:l>a84 fto . 3 by' -- ZanJng1 , that', tbe
_ 1 know Il1II b7 10 tba stNGts .
AIl7 other IlaIJIII? -- I oall Gor hh: by thU ot %an1llp .
- IItS - ="""". 10J1i bave 70U ImcnIn b1Io? - Acell3ed o. 3
11ves 14 ,rlllaon 1Ioad aDd t. alao 11nd 14 Fercuaon Dad
and v n 1 CaJIIII dovn OD 1iol1da7. tram oTanseDv1l1e thaD I
... t accund ,0. 3.
D14 70U .,. 11 ot accused • 3' - I sav 11 ot
h1II. 11nd Dear ur place .
re 70U triends'! - - 0, be 18 11 older tllaD "b:lt
I •
117 1nstruct1Dns are that ;0 . 3 18 19. - 10 those
dll7& DCClI o. 3 d14 not pla,. vlth lie . pla,.1 "Uh
tha othltrs, the b1&&Br oaes and I alV&7U p1&7e4 with tile
701111&11' ° S .
iou don ' t Ic:1ov ·0. 03'. 11111' _, - vartbOo1 .
C !Ill I I ""a coin, to to 7011 ZlDV. vbenaver thlt,. apeak
about Il1a 1loIIII, vhom voul tbe)' ratar to. ou14 tllay retar
to at tha bOIIII ot s bod,. aDd 70u wou14 probeb17 say vart
b0017 I upla1ne4 to 7011 that nobod)' 18 tl'71.11& to trap 1011
bere . 11 tlla Court vaata tro 7011 18 Just vbat 10u Itnov
about this th1aj; . Tbat vas "hilt -vaa .p1a1Dad to you.
I O. 1 acclIse ... 111 &aT tbat be • Itnovn 7011
tor about 3 ,..ars. - I kIIov h1II 10llpr tbaD 3 7'ars .
U. '11 a&7 be baa knOwn 70U tor about 3 ,..ar. . -
Perhaps t. 1iIe&:1S attar I _ back troll .cho~l, but in 1111
8chool y.ars I ImGv b1Io t:t'OII colllina back to holld&7a.
• 2 accusod u)'. bas Imown 7011 tor about a ,..ar.
I'll batl8 be 0017 knott. _ b)' a1&ht tOr a ,..ar. but I
toow h1lII tor a ~ t1llll .
Ho. 3 A)'U that be bas oD1y knovo you B1Aca t!l1. 7Bar.
- know. me . I 11ve 14 FerlllBOD Street twar vbera
t. 11 ...
ow I '8nt to dAlal speo1t1cal17 with t ,..,eU"lp
v uch 7011 told us about . lbesa are tt. tour ,tings that
70 11 vellt to vbe .. )'011 8 'I )'ou IlIV tha aeel1SllC! . _ r • .
But berr>n I d.al .. .ttb tbat, 1 SlUt vant to put tll1ll
to )'ou thllt It 1 qU1te true that you •• v &ll3 ot tbe
- 146 - o • accusad at these meat1nga.
COT] I 'lbG accused vlll lay that tlll1 d14 not attend a
a1ng1a _atinl . - r I v tllllll at till meoUn 5 .
,l!;;Ui!!31 In tac:t, • 2 accused ,,111 apec1t1cal17 Ia,y t t
III vain this Transvaal in 1962. - I lev h1a at tbUa
.. etings.
ow IOU' V1I alreoll1 told us t t tbB spoakel' at tbB
first III t1oe)'Ou _tteMad, VIIS 01&4v1o 11. - Yes.
:be" voa tbb atine held? -- In till JWlclA neal'
a lord Stadi •
:hat t , - DUl'iag the nllht.
liIha t tt.? -- Iletw.en 7. 30 on 8 in tile nan1nl.
t 4ay ot the we.k was it? - lean' t l'a.=lIer till
day, Imt 1 t was on a ".ekQe~.
11111 are 10U 50 lu:re that it vas on a vaal<-.nd t - All
"atinge I attetldad val'll held on t w elt-end, 0tI Saturdays
aael f.7 •
I !CUlt tall JOu that 0 ot the otbel' vltnessa. told
WI tblt one of this .et1o&l va" Id on a vaal< a1 . .LCCOrd-
in& to .Ionpb Myatt, the _at1oe vile" till pun18lu11ant vas
adlll1nlatere4, VIS beld durine the ve.l< . So one ot 10u must
be III1staltan. - I '. not too lure hut 1 t~1nl< tlla lIofl;iag
vben tbe people were puniabld, s on a turdsl ..... n1n& .
And d .. l1o with the tlrst •• tine, JOu .., it v • on
tile vealt-end . to IOU lmov vllatlllr it Val a aturday or a
1Uldf.7? - Yes, 1' . not too IiUl'e 1t it II as a Sa turday or
IJOV IIIaD,Y people would IOU 1.' vare .t th1a meetin,? -
01Uld about 40, not too 1:lIIQ1.
lev woUld )'Ou tell II how IOU cot to tlla lII.atinl'
Did 8Q7bo41 collact 10u or did JOU Co on 10ur own' - I
v .. col .ct.d to that "at1n&, tatchod.
ow I vaat to £0 1oto detail so listen caretUll1. I
vant 'to to teU US exaetl7 vho tetcbed JOU ana t roo;, ~ wera t.tebe': . - Vuy1s1la Ktutu all4 1ra11pa found _
- 147 - •
111 t atree . re? _ In '1'1IIko tn.t. And Jacobs , f.Jllk1 am
aceased o. 2 vere witb thase two .. n wilen tiler fOIlIId me 111
tbll atreet .
tin people c .. up to )'ou 111 tile atroeU -
Correct . rlve came to .. , 1 was tile 61ztb 0 •
D14 tllllr call )'CU to tile _t1nC? - tlle1 c_ to
me and tber told .. tber are C01nJl to tile 1IIIl8t1n& nov, 1
at come wlth tbem.
D1CI J'OU CO 8tn1&bt to tha ... t1nC' - l'rca tllere va
vent to tha ahop end stopped at tile shop.
D1d arrtb04,. 30111 ,00 on tbll va,. to tha abop' - On
tile Wfl1 tiles. pao.pli vent and tbBr fatcbed soma otber peo le.
liM vere qulte a 11'00 vtan we arl'ivad at tba abop.
IlbAt lleppel1ll4 than' tou started to valk along. -
Froa t re tbar collect accused 1 and \ .
:bo fetched 1 and It, -- tut vent to tha bouae at
accused 1 and Ij .
D14 tiler l1nk up w1tb ,.out - 1'e • •
"os al\7b04r alsa col ected by arrt of rour "art,. on tile
wIlT' - 1'u.
eU. well tall U8 wbe fetchad vho. - I don't lItnov a
tile people 111 1'.p.malaD& treat, ut thase peo;ole ... nt to
tile • hOus .. all4 081118 beck wltb IIOIDB otller people .
D1d arrt of 70111' ~t7 collllct people' -
on to t ahop. and I':al1pa aDd Htutu stayed bebJ.n4 _DiS vent
to tbB" hOUMa and latar on tbe), ~01Md witb us at tl»
abOps ~1tb G othan .
lobo d14 tiler J01l1 10U wUb? Could)'Cu tall us? -
X don't knOv thall> . I un't taU tbe Court .
X want t» be ole r abOut tll1s . Iou lIa14 til t flrst
70u want to o. 1 and It'. boUM and ratcbad tllem. too aa1d
that tiler accompnn1a4 you. - Correct .
Did .tutu leave you aga1n end CCIlIlO ck? - TilT ata,y8d bell1.M and tbelr Saatructions vere "" must valk 011.
- lltS - •
the)' are co1.nc to col ct a_ others.
re diel lltutu :l1nlt up \/ith )'ou aplll? - At tile
• 11 •
It t step t t tutu nnd ~ipa and otbera 301lled
10 at tile .tlops, apPICZUate17 bov tJ:T paople wre you?
-- About 13 or l~ .
You vellt rro tile stlop, I pre au. , to tile .. tlnr. -
t •• •
hieh or tile aeollled diel you .aa at the _t1o&' tb1nk
ca berore )'ou _ar. - .Accused o. 3 va. amac!)'
at. tbB meet1a& "bell we arr1ved t.llere .
14 10 .. e wb be 1IllS wUh? -- Ile v ••• 1ttill, n.,"" aU .
ow what bappalled at tbU ._tine? You tole! ua that
11 apoke . can you tall UI bow tlt1a ... tlog started and
vbat bappaDllcl? - Hillil1 stood up , cava tbe salQte by
tllell saie!
va ust know we belo~ 1.0 tbe Urlcsnlst COQ,"ss, F. A.C.
'I 8, wbat alaa' - a are coine to riCht ror OlD'
c tl'1 vhich VIS taken f'rOlIl IIlI bJ the tea, and told
us that evarytbinc that vas sald on this ... t1o&, va II!QJt
not CO and tell it t.o people wtlo are !lOt. melllbers or this
or,en1aatlon, because w. vll1 be killed.
Yea' - Bval'1bo4), that co .... to tlla meat1o&s Jllllat be
thea ca ... tile aaluta ancI ha clo .. 4 t lIGat1o&.
ieI IIa 8A1 vhJ )'ou must. COllIS to tbB .aUncl arMeS? -
ArI1 es1rable peraoa ,,110 COlli... to tb1a ,t1o;; , 80 that va
can ficht h1lll.
C ... T
You reM bar that va vare talkinl about that
tirat Ja etine at vbleh (ball spake . - r .. .
doth VIICIII vera you at tb1a meetine' - I wa.
accom n1ed by lIIIut. ak1.
1.JJ¥000l e1.sd - IWlIIue , accused 1 and 4, tbll tour or u • •
~--- -----~--
• 149 -
Ine14lnta1l1 tbua 15 0118 queatloD I hanD' t put to
10 . Iotllo,
tau place? -
re or leu 111 1962, d1d thls t1nt _t111a
1'17 111 1962.
•
em JOU ,1.,. II!) ~ 1nd1eat1on ot tlIe IlODth' - •
,.. come to ttllo .. cOlli! _t1nS wb1ch 1011 told us
w .. beld about 2 weeb latar than ttllo firn .t1nS at
" ~h the speaker vu ap.111 11. - Xes .
I taa it that that JDeat1nS ytlS bald t the 881118 place
aa the atll'l1ar at1Al. _· :ru .
And what tiM 414 1t tW plece' - In the IVIID!a&
at a t fro- 7. 30 to 8 o' clock.
10 d14 the _t1Dj: ,0 on1 - or a abort t1JDe .
Can you not pss t:he t1llle? - 0 , I ce't cue .. the
tiM.
ow, at what t1Jlle, wbat cla1 ot the " ak was it helcl? ••
I th1nlt thAt lIeotJAg Y/l8 also at tba vealt-encl .
Yell .. , TaU tb1nk 1t 'oiIlS at the VIIalt.-ad'·· 0, lie
8811 1t VIIS on tbe .... k ... .DcI .
I;1IJ 414 'OU aa, X think it w a 00 tile ,,,.It .. ,,,, beton?
YOII kG"" t t .. e nIt ink" allicests aOllla doubt 111
10111' 1I1ncI . •• &cau •• all tour .... Unp I attended vas
oy.r the W.k-9M .
\lie it. a SatUl'Cla, or vas 1t a Sunda1' .- I can ' t
"mellbe I' t be cIaJ' .
la 10111' MIllOI'), Cood' -
can' t 10U relllllillMr tlUa?
COWl. I don ' t ItnDv 1t that 18 "a117 tau. s Nov, wbo ca_ to tetch TOIl to the •• Un,? -
laut llyelo:i and 1ta11pa .!IeI .Itutu .
III1l1 thD .. tllJ' • _ to t.tch 'au? - J.AcI J • .,obs .
our C/lJlll, I val the tifth one .
~lt1, lips tutu ani Jobn Jacobs' - Correct .
llhere die! the, tUd fOil? - 1Ie1.round me 111 T
Street.
, 4ie! tba t1.,. at fOu 10 ta.d1atalr 00 to tba lhops
- 15 - -....:;=. to t 1'1 - .tutu vent to tete!! ccused 1 and It . JPl'OIII
there vent to oJa 'VU •••
%)14 Htlrtu leave JOl1 to collact a 0 14 1 and It t - iii
at ta14e, «tutu vent 1IIto tile hOuse to call aoclliad 1 and
It.
Then 414 tutll, o. 1 It ;10111 you? - tn .
And wbat llappeMd the II? - 'roll tllere we vent to Jabnu
t1'l8t .
y .. ? - tbere wa cot accused o. 2 .
All ot 10U ~ .. at to :abavu Srnett - All ot ua ... at
t re o
Where 414 10U t1ni! accused • 2' Ina14e 1118 house or
out8il1_? - I ' . not be cure but I tll1nk ... also tound 111m
111 tile atreet.
n I th1nll: JOII re 8117111. tll1n8 about aceu do.
;) . -- Yea, tl'CIIIl tlleN .... "'l1t to IIceused c . 3' a place 111
I'u",aoll Street.
t ... ad wilen 7011 arrived at O. 3" place, cl14 JOII SO
1ns14e or dill 7011 rind lUll IltallCl1nt out.14a 111 the et1'lett
-- I ' . QOt too aura but 1 th1nk we alSo .round h1a 111 tile
at1'8et .
tar lou'4 collect d accused 0. 3, what d14 7011 do' -
F1'OlII tIlere VII not to tile ahops.
D14 Ill17 d;v '0111 JOu aa route to tile abops' - obod;v
,01Md IU eo l'OI1te to tile all:lpa.
t IlappeMd at tile allopa' - At tile .lIops IItlltu
told liS to lIa1t and Sle it hO otllers will alSo eo •
Ao did 10 wait? - were tllare tor a abort whlle
and thell we wellt Oil .
1'8 70u ;101=4 7 all,1bod, wbU. 70U ... re lIa1t1n&? -
•
- IIaII,Y peoplo would YOll 8.,. more or laas, veri at
t • t1.na' - oand a t 5'0.
X. that lID", than at ~1le pravlpl13 •• tJDg7 _ 1 vollld 7 tlle1'8 vere mora than 5'0.
- 151 -
COllld you teU us about tb.1. lISetinct YOtl told II.
11 a .:IN... tile .. at1nC. - Yes •
.You told s tbo _ot~ vas 0'l8ne4 in t.be ""''''1 vay.
tba •• lute as descr1bed . - rets.
t 414 )!ball say t n - lie tOld s V1I IIWI t Imov
nov.... re tbe people vbtl bu. cot the stron&t.b in outb
1fric. . M lIust try on buiias .in town va ust Meruit people
for this orp.n11.tion. a It D t .... as they do .in
:to tlelburc and Capa town. b CIU .. tbe)" &C about 8IlI! recru1t
.. mbers for this organiaat1?n.
Yea. nyth1n&: elaa? - An thUdl,y 11 &14 vben .,. 8ft
.in town we t loak for abc v 88el alC!!!Qn1t1on. cuns and
th1n&:s. so that V1I II:aov Vbare are tile places bere V8 can
break .in tc pt cuns and .... "Un1t1o . !be!! be ena tbe .. lute
in tJ:e or41Aary "81 and do.d the .et1nC.
:tire any s0n&s BWlC .t. tba fh-at .et1n&:' - Te •• et.
t.be clD .. or tbe .... t1n:t a .011& .... 81v.,. BUIll .
t the clo .. of ... rr -atinc? - 111 tints .t tile
clos. of the .... t1n&: .'0 va. •
tea.
One 01' IIOre D8 a rule t - 1\ro or throe sones ware •
fll1a Val doo at t tour .etin • that 70u ver8 nt? _
ow d14 tbe foUl' aeeu ad sit toptber at the second
... tinc' -- 0, the, sat amon 8t the otller people.
It vas dark at the atinl. V8IC't 1tt - It vas
dlll'k. III .ays 8 1'811 pac. .y IOU oou1411' t %'eCOID1" a
peraon.
1.bo d14 you leave t h lII .. tin vUhf - Ub accused
1 and " and )lye 'U.
Anybody elae? -- 0, not ttl C/lll re_G<ir.
ow ... coma to tile t 1rd lie tin • hat w s tbB ... tint
.t 'l1ch 10 introduced tile cuelt spa r trom ,Johannel-
att 70U aaid. in NlaUOD to tbJI IIII1~JD - 8t 11 't IIIOre 01' leIS. icc14eatall,y. v •• thll WlGating 14? _
- 152 - • -- tvaa n 1 • 3 and 11 in the rn •
III your ... 1111nce in clliat you l'8 asked m:t le rIMa
triend IU1 vh3t clq 1t vea ld aM JOlla aid I'. not too sure,
I t!11nk a anda,y. -- I IS 1c1 I)Q .
It could havI bean a llat1lJ'day. - I'. DOt too aura
bat I t L1nk it VU 0 1 81lC1ay.
I don't know vbetber I'VII cot th1a corractlJ. You told
na tllia 1I1Ol'n1ng in nlatioll to tile th1rcl meetJ.ng that v ..
addresaad 111 lIdlO 8IId the Cllut speaker, thllt Malldola,
I ba.a It as l!a.lldola and lItuta ca. to your houst . __
Corract.
t 18 Halldola's ot l'
Yoa said that tbe, ca_ vUb otllers. - tes.
hbo elae cl1d tbel c w1tb? - Upa, ~.k1, Jacobs,
o. 2, that'. aU 1 can re ... ber.
Do JOo th1ni< tban ara other. Y sa • 10u can't
ra libel' 7 -- Tllera vare otllera but I can't ra r till
IWIIIIS .
All tbasa people c_ to lOur bouae to tatcb you. _
Y.a .
ow woo a1c1 YOll peopla tatch IU1 tile way to till! BtaclJ.na?
-- cUP 1 and It, tro tlll!ra ve vent to accused 110. 2'.
bona. in I.bavu Straet.
Yo IBUBt be caraM. You told U8 that accused c. 2
.... one ot tba people who 0... to fetcb TOil at IOU!' bonae.
-- rbara I made 0 II1atalal. Accus.-! 110. 2 vas not 'With
tbese people who CHI to tetcll .. at 'IlJ7 bouse . want to
labaw treat to collect bia.
It.!~ ilO.icl:!:!i.l1 I I'll aol'l'1 to interrupt, but 1t r umleratand my noteD - I IIa1 be wroll8 ot oourse - tMs 18 GlOre 01' leas
what tha vItae'll add. Collected 1 and It betora va ooUected
accused. o. 2 .
Did a., that in ... Iaance in ehlat?
• In ... 146_ In cll1.,r. t', bOIl t Iuva Lt • I l1li1 be vro ( .
- m - ~= . .... .:.IilW<S' I'. not de lina with Ilia ev14ence 111 ctl1et at
tll8 ot . In or sa-llxa1t1aatioo toc!81 wblo 1DcllCllte
t t till pe p1e wbo came to t tcb bia vel'. 'llRr'1 !daola,
• tu, Ira~, lacobs, and 0.:1. I'll lorr), U' I caw tbl
11> 1'6 don ~b t that 8 1n ... ld.ooll 10 cb.let. So v t do
)'ou sa,., I'" just rell1tlo104 )'OU that 111 ),our earllar
• .,14.nee 10 cross-eulII1na 100 v s that 0. 2 vu one or tbo.a,
ob, )'ou 14 1t vas a mistake. - A .1ateke.
blae .. istake. are seriOus, ,.ou knDY. You &aid tbat
)'ou collected aeClUall. s. 1 and ~ aa route. - TAts.
14 70u r1n4 the. 10814e the MU!A or cutd4&? -
01 It Val r 1Il the atre t. )' wnt to retcb
0. 1 111 ttw MUM.
0'. the)'Y - 1II10la wnt to ratcb, tutu vent to
• And;rou alted outdde' - Yo •
vtwn lltutu CUill out wltb • 1 d14 )'Ou tllen EO 00
to o. 2', bOu~.? -- YOI, to aceut d o. 2', bouse 111
Jaba1lU Straet .
, I. t t correct nov t t 70U eoll.eeted o. 1 and It
prior to collaet1llg o. ,or 414 10U col 'act o. 2 aoll. tlleo
• 1 and'" - Corr ct. lIB coUecte4 aecus 4 1 and It and
thaa v. vent to accused 2'. bou •
, !;OW, wbo vent 1oto 0. 2" bouaet - I can't
re1llB 1', bat. 1 tll1nlt found ~ jn till atroet.
Atter ,.au h:ld collected o . 2, d1ll 10U collaet -OJbod)'
81.'" - 110, trom thllre proc:aed811 to tbI .bop .
Did IIIIJbody Jo1o ,.au all route? - 10.
llbat ppaaad at the sbop' - waited tblr' •
usual . :II thare VI tt 10 small croups, 3 or .. .
1>14 IlIl)'bo4;r J010 )'OU at tho .b~p? - Do JOw
at tbl abOp. 'rbGre v •• nobod;r "hen 18 arrl.,.d at till
ubO .. .
I tblnlt :IOU tell ~O PI t t TO wnt on 111
&r012 I ot 3 or It. - that 1& correct .
- 154 -w, in '>ose COJDPllll1 14 you .. e c . 3 .c~, D14
you ae • 3? - I ::v ac:cu.ad o. 3 tllere . vas 111
the ClampaIJY ot oIc .. pb I!lDti.
ow you've told UD boW DIl10 111 the cuest
Ipanker . D1o1 be l1etWlll7 J.a41cate wbat. th1a n ' . rank wa' _ told us tbat th1G OM comas 1'r01I tile ~h crt1ce
and ba 11 an otUeer.
lie d1d.l1' t 11va tba actual .rank? - 110 , bo onlJ aaid
o ot the ,"at peopla ,
'OUilt AJilOo; •
17th 1m. 19M.
: , va vera talking. out tile tb1rd meeting at
,,~ch lQIondlO 1I1troducd the &WIlt. spesker from Jobannubl:rc,
and 1I1tarprltad Ilia lpatch to the s unca . - Correct .
vblll 10 torducc4 this II8,D trom Jobaru a8 G,
he 1IIB1ltiOll b1a IIB_' -- O. 38 aDTth1n& .. 14 at t'l1. meet101 about en attaek? -
r ••. bat VIIS sa14? - lie s&1 tllt1t the 'raak Force 111
loban a.burl are ~ust a1t1ll& to pt arllS to Idl1 tba II!11ta
paopla .
Dld be talk abc poa1t101U otblu' then 10 Joban ... burl'
- L1Ite cape ovn, t London and 0 ther places.
bat other places? - chu,aaland and I don ' t
mow tile otber pl,ca • •
Did 10u t the s..pr8llsicn tbaretore f'1'OIIl wbnt tba cuest
speaker A101 that tba asl< 'orce vas ready tor aeticn in all
these placn that JOu ' Just .ntloae41' - Ye. , as wllat
tbis. IIksr told us .
ow 14 the .peaker talk ot I1notblr v1l1t? - o.
re lion a BUIll; at th1a lIGaUne? -- Yu .
II there D~ retereneo at thil particular lDeeting to
a .enta .. trolll a atint_ he 111& W11shecl? - I 0114 not ar
tbst .
CIV Y!leI latt this .... ting w1th ),ou? _ I lett w1tb
- 15'5' -
a.ccused 1 It.
0al7 the tbrea at 70U lett in one group? - 1' .. .
litton I tell< abo t the tourtb lIIOatlAg, I vaut to
&0 ck to tbe tirst Hlt1n& at vblcll Mbal1 spolte . lUll
70ur a1Ild baC; to tbnt t1rSt III aUa, "I'll 10 1962. Lid
.Toaph aU Co vltb 70U to the t1rst lII .. t1o;7 -- o.
ow line 10u wltasues 1n this calli beea locked up
to;;8 r? - Yu.
In one call? - 1'", •
.. 70U durin, tb1a can d1scu.sed whet's lItea
hIl n1a& 10 CourU -- JIIo, va doa' t tellt nbout tho .. th1n&l .
ov I 40n't know vhether 70U knoll aJ171; 1n ahout th1a,
but I put 1t to 7011, do 1l1li knOlt' that t Paarl rlots took
pleca at the and ot Oftaber, 19621 - I do 't lalov.
You wo ldn't dear 1t. -- I would not 8ar it.
ow ,... COIIIO to thll oll1'tb and last llaot1n&, t t VIIS
tile ... atlol at vbleb people \181'8 pun1sbed . 'ov 1117 lear d
tr1and vaat loto wbo ecolllpnn1ad 70U to tbe 1I08t14& 10 •
dateU. vh:lt wOl'l'1 .. ilia about ),our • .,14811C8 bara 11
that tller8 sa III. to be 110l1li coatus1on .. s to wbether 70u
round • 2 .t tile boll. 70u told us 8118 .. &lly sptJak1nI
that tile people c up to 10U noal' tile ball . - Yes .
n rou aq this , 1lt Zondalli, !'ha tj 1 .. , 1le
Stoltve, Zolele V'eld , ~01<ia4 Dan :%boIIIIIs and 1'1po IIas'-a
)'OU at. tba hill . - Yes .
Do rou mean weI" 1 nll oubida the bill wban 1011 £Ot
together or var )'ou wido the 11? - tio ... ot tbe ...
people vera wide tile II and t y vere broulht OOt11<lo .
Tho~. who vare loaldo tbe ball vera broullht. outs ide' -
Correct .
av you ' ve told us tllnt accused 8 . I, 2 aDd 4 ve ...
• t the ball . All t sa peop1. ware 1asid. the ball .
I vent outside, that ' B vb7 tbe7 tound lie outs ida •
"'hell 70u say all til ... JlIIople vara 1118148 the U and
you 1'8 outside . By aU tile • 1'Oople do )'OU reta .. to I,
- 15'6 -
.. aII4 21 -- a, I vas alao 11191 • tile baU ani! I went out.
t vbat atace did 10U ,0 out? -- I waa called outaide.
whO 1 - M1 ;1r1trl.1k1 called me outside.
as tll1S betore t. people callD for you? - tore
t $a peo 1. ca ,when the people CaDI, outaide, I "U
spea 111& to r:IY ,trUrie outsida .
And a,a1ll X'. a 11 tle worried I lIult taU you, beau ..
1 u told ua t1rat17 tilt; t .Tolla Jacobs Vila one ot tbOn po >pl.
vho 11nlted ~ with YOIl a the hall . Later you B 1d fot! made
a ai.t about Jolla Jao ba, tllat you lilt him at the abO •
_ I mace 8 alataU tller.>. a linked up vith .:raco s at t.he
abops.
C 't you II8ke B autate 111 your idant1t1CaUon ot tbe
nocuse 111 relation to tbis lRQ.tin, too? - I made no
m1st.a .... 8UIl the •
ow, did the tbree c.eeus d aocompany tlls rest ot 10U to
tbe ... tina, til3t is to say 1, .. and 2, did t.ho1 aecoapn.I\1
t.t. .... t ot )'ou to the ... t1n&? -- Corntct .
-
Did you atop at too .bOp? - 118 stopped ot the shop.
was John Jacobs the only person to loin you at t.he .bop?
Jolla .racobs and so_ other • • I did not know t. ot r • •
lou didn't know t.he otllars? - /Ie .
low IIIalI)' ot.hera "er II ...... r. there w1th .robO
.raeoba? -- I t 1nIt tvo .
OW 1 have 60_ d1ttlcult)' in uIk1eretandlng )'our avi-
denea about Cuke 'a appeuranca at thla fourth atinc. YOIl
told us tbat 0 nu:l>er at people >IlIre ... kI4 at this lllaet1ng .
- tea . Was ... Ilke _skeel? -- I!e onl1 had a balaelava cap on.
ow you',re quite cert.ain that. onl)' two pelpl. admln-tarad
tbll cut.. -_ Dulce and Hpga ICallpa .~mlD1ateHd tbll cut~ .
lOW, attar Duke ~ CIIU8a tbs nam. ot the people to
be pl1ll1ahad, out, did be ,lve t!lelll anq>pe>rtunity to explain
"117 tbe7 bad absented thalllldYe' troa an earlier _tin"
-- loa, he sn them tlal to expla1ll.
- 1;7 -
D14 any or tbem orfer a . • xPlanat1on? - I ' . not
aura . I tll1nk Joseph Kyati &!Iv •• D .xPlanat1on.
hat d14 be a.J' - lie asked vb:r st. be receive
t.be .. cuta , "b:r must be be pun1a •
leas , quite, but JOu sa14 be ottared an explanation.
Oid !,JaU a.,. wh;r he Illiase4 a ... 1.inl, v!l;y be lhoul4 not be
pun1abed? - n. orrara an azplanation, but 1 414 not
hur vb; t be aale! .
tben haw do :rou knOw be oftara4 an axp~t10n? --
101217 bllard hia spaak10t but I couldn't beu "bat he a&14 .
thera vas a a~ ot peopla .
014 Duke sa:r that be would 81w.7" ... t.hat. ab .. nt •••
voald be pun1abed' - ... .aid GO .
rtar tbe •• peopla had bean punisjlad, 14 Duke 1s-nle
an:r farther 1.IIst.ructiooa ta JOu people' -- oa17 asked
us if va vara a d .
414n't c1ve loatractions? - - IIa onl¥ spoke about
tbe vaapons .
ow VbO lart thia lII8at1D& vlth you? -- wnt out
10 SlIIIlll lrolljll . I val 112 a croup yith Htutu .
lObo alsa vas 112 JOur croup' IiDv aan:r vere 10 ~
crollp7 Can JOD raMllbar -- I vas vlth accusa4 1 and 1+
and ~kl .
You vara 0Al7 foUl" 10 70111' &roup' - '1b11ra v.ra so.
otbars too .
Can JOU tell us how aD7 tbllre va ... ? -- 0, on our
W8 vara 0017 tour to&;8t1l8r •
memor, a&;8lo s!lorU:r .
U a44rel ad you'
•
I "ant to refrelh JOur
leou ra. ba .. the n ... t ... t1ng wbere
ad YOD told lIS that var10us Jl80jlla
attanded tllU ."t1D&, UIOncat otbers all the acclUed . - -
Correct .
!be)" 112 tact atte/ld.4 this .at • Is that rl&ht?
- t •• •
- 1$8 - •
41) JOU know villi tbar, 70U lIlUSt nOlI think carefully,
tbis 18 tile t1rst .. e'1n& that U addl'eased. D14 10
lacob, attead tll1a l18et1Qa' - Sa vas tllere.
Joseph l'.7at1? -- I did not IIBe h1m thare.
MalJwt ~t1? -- IIa "81 there .
OIl tba second autin, thst JOa attalllled, that 1. the
ecoad one at which Kbal1 vu the only apaaker. Do ,oa
remecbllr? - Yn.
And 10U told us that all tour accused al80 atteadad
tb18 lie t11l,. - Yo • •
A&o11l I want 10 to tblnk caretal17. D1d JOM Jacoba
attend t!U.s .. t1llg? - Ho.
Are ,oa sure' -- 0, he vaa not at tb15 .et11l,.
d14 Josepb "TaU attaad tl118 me t11l,7 -- Sa va.
at that .. aUna.
!leOIU .. , JOa se
about thi .... t1nC, •
vhen you ,a.,. evidanca. 10U told lUI
10U told u& that Y.a1k1, lipa and
. tutu c.,... to Eetch 7O'U . orreet .
I know it 11 axtre"17 couru.11IC to pat these IlBet11l,.
end the people to 10a, but try to ooncalltnte . ADd IlOv this
mora1Qa 10a told us t t Jo Jaeo. 41d not attelld this
1IIIlet1Qa and 1'. 1ncl1Md to .,ree, but be that .. it 1.
n 10U ,ave evidence 1D. chlAt, fOu told as that the ..
peo"l., that 1a ek1, ltallpa .
Cy!1RT. :V1dence in chi.f?
• Cro"s-exaIll1tl.aUon, aorl'1. it 18 ., be vrU1nC.
t: .1. llaCIlUse in avidenca in c111a1' be Olll)' tastU1ad
a at tho th1rd "etina.
Pj1o;} IrNr. ~ thiN and the tourtt . \lQ4er cross-
8XI\IIl~tloll 10u add that :reki. 1Ca11pa and l-:tutu callll to
retch you lacobs. - I mad. a ai.taka. 17 the
thre. came to fetcb me.
!II he second meet1ng, t t. 18 ItI, lCallpa ancI toW. -- 'Ie • •
- 159 -",ben tbe,. toun4 ,ou, you told ua, ,ou vere 111
T~ Nt . - '%ea .
ad 10U ow £111 tha Jaco 8 d14 not attend t 1s maat1lli.
- d not C1l1D8 to fetch III lIUt 1 CIl ' t kncv 1r .. vas
!l<>t & thaDotin •
• , ra vitnaase. about tbe
alib1 or accusad Mo . , .
•
I nu, I .1' hUll HI I •• • (lhD ) .
Iloe CIII.I 18 3" - 3a .. 1' .
410 Man 1sti' t,
II v 1&hton Lokas18, I1Il't Ell betb 4btrlk.
n J, dis manso 111 daardis ClIP 111&? - lit !ten hulle .
au, at IIiOet un au QDU .... rdllidaUt dat daar bet b
vraa, outataao. at "llru11l1 a o. 2 111 I1Irt Elizabeth va.
edW'tlnda 1962, a14an nis . I<OU ~d. ken 37 bestul 19c\. lic.
21 - Ek ton bam.
J, 8, _, - GubeTa b 8, naall.
Ia dlt dis Inlpte num vaarb,. J,. bolD tan? - 11,
18 an er nau: :tn&UbO •
Is d1t di8 edeata name v eronder 3, boll! un? -- v18
DOU die an1&ste tn. IWII8 vaBl' elt ho by tan.
Ia ,uUII ramil1a? - Ja .
ou wll all: hi lIOet J, vir ~ Yerdll1dll1ll: hOetOIll 37 .,
at Julla telll1li. 18. - QQ, Btu van .. n.t .t. t betekan it? -
bukuld1t e 2 0011: .
stam van dis atea adeba at ,
au al 3y 0111 daard1e 1'84. d.t juUa C ... U18 181 -
Op Bantoa tevoante 11 all!! t8lD1Iie .
au 18 lulle bIoedt.CliU.? IIlt.t danby be40eI 18 dlt.
bet Julle lIisl!:ien b .10 4vervaut.knp, llet alld,r voorde 4at
JUll bet .U ... Uoll _ or dat Julll I'll'. broe1'1 11 or OOIIS
1_, d1t 1(11 DOIl.I Ieens lalla gfllOjJJU,.
net ana ltala van aen atam at. - J d1s
- \160 - I.
/Iou "at beuou 37 beuu 1&de o. 2 van Jou? - at
alt be noell as \l talll1lle, by 1. oall: \l Cade 100. at.
Is b:r van JOu tn1Ue, 1& b:r JOu broer or Jon oaC ot
bntaan 4a41' n1e 10 \l ta:rlII8 in JOu Danto. pbrU1ka 018' -
D18 ou net le .t8lIll1ACIi ao ona 00 ... 0 u ... k ar as broaH,
vat 0011 .. ltaar .. broers.
C J7 volcaos .1111111 18bru1ke, mat 4118 lustar, 1ncS1eo
beskuld1&' u. 2 .en IOU cebael bat, troll? -- R •••
lio8iom n1a? -- Ll1t 1&, ons is t,m1lSe.
el18saUda Mt 1 .. uster, C I, luster fMt JOIl
byvoorbeald trout - .a, OUi ltan n18 onder IDIbar trou
nl8, VOlpDS llantoe £9woonte.
In watter verband IOU b1ardle aanvarwantakap ot tam1l18-
verwantaqp u1t1n& cee 18 Jullll toe "oontes? - Dlt
1. nou so so16.na l>antoa pwoont •• , almal bet a.n stas"a , dan 0 4oard18 at8llll18&l1 vir 1IIII05a al cna b part.1 or an1&-
18ta pa, bul!a 1s are ate wat pno\ll ward b, 18 P tT.
op te 011 dUll, .. olgeos Jul~. ,ebru1Q bIIaltou 31
belkuld!td.a No. 2 as tslll1118 van Jon an tr 8 J1 t .. nocr hem
aldul op. -- Eorrek.
lank ten 31 sltlllcl1cde o. 27 - Lo.nj:er clan 10
anneal' Mt JT u1t",v1nd t bealeU1 1£11. o. 2 .. an Jou
ta.m111a la1 - ':¥ luster bit rq asf be. uld1. • 2
hot a18 by be bUa t8 •
Ja, cUt is nou a1nt111t bOora' cetui.nU, ... I' anncer
bat .17 IUtcev1ncS Julli ~ rpill 1 - het beaJtulcllcde
110. 2 ,8811111, OIlS bet mte I' ,ell'08t en liter hat m:t _ .,
oolt llea,ecloel dat ons (omilla is.
IlDJl8sr 18 lt onp ... ar at J7 u1tlsv1nd bat dat JUlla
familla is? -- 0 oDgeveer 1951.
o 1& b P tlC, nit - Ja.
ou, vat was 418 bitrel:1t1nJ:e t san Jo an baskulcl1&de
• 2 vanar, ai, 1~171 - "01 '116 nc JDll 1I8l1!J8 II' 'J hat, bet eJc: 8n beakalc!1& e • 2 llete hal8 &tIdan. ens
- 161 - •
bet I' III ,edobbel an ~'II ap II oot .
Bn bat Julla IIIItallr IS tUl111e &e,,1 -- r,ret .
oDe 41lw.la bet June met kaer 1n a raId", calcOIll
vanat 19571 - Bals . TOG ek vir cU. tell 'Orl11 eaat kapp;y
r.e nit bat , bat ell: elt1d b7 bealCUld1t4. lio . 2 .. hula verb;y
tU1. "18 pad bet dur ~ ,.,aan.
nnetr Val d1t cava .. ? - - bet ..... 1957 tot 1961
b;y d18 Steal ~rl11 me tskapP1 ava~k.
En vaar bet j1 gaan verk 111 19611 - Blc: bet toe vir
418 bu. aaatlla1ppy ,ewert, 11 o.,ellbtr 1961 bet alt da8l' be,1I1 .
In va Ue l' boedanlCM liS , - ndukteur.
ltoartJ181 ondersoaker . lit aader vo rde J1 _I elke
IIII1n at deardl. bus batrel, moe. J1 to .. 18n dlt b7 iA be,lt
la VaD b caMlce l'a1akaart.11e . - Blc: t dle taartjlu
ultcerek an clle ,tall\ toUettesr .
ou toe j,. in 1961 da baciA ... rk bet, bet .11 toe _t
beakul!&da o. 2 in aanrak1nc ,all:o 111 .lou hoadan1cbeld sa
Ie rt.jl •• onderaoake .. ot l!:ondukt.ur7 .... t beakuldlide
o. 2 at .'" toe d .... by rq slUter b,. aD 'fIlOJlllIS •• bula
pslan, purt,Jll;!al bet It bOil nia pa18n daar n18, dan
v& t ell nia v .. r dat lIT Is nia .
it vll sl 1961, d18 la ata pd •• lta van 1961. - &It
Iran nle det.1n1tlet d18 t;yd sf. of dit d18 be,.1n ot dla ainde
vas VIA die Jaar nle .
u £Qed. ODS bet nou .. rdar. naa. 1:1111001' . :11 bet
"n suator en d18 auator 1. ,.troU!1 IIOt ana 'OCIIl a.-
(orrell: .
IIet J1 dl" GUllter VaD 'OU parlod1et beaoeltt - J .
En .11 het 1l0U so pea vir OilS , .. 4 cllt; 31 llestuldipi
No . 2 oolt b;y dle sus tel' un 3011 (eden bet . -- ::Orret •
.on l1 bet toe ot b,. da wt 81 01'111 Compan." coverlt ot
b,. d18 buSH . - lao
lOt 3y van basmldl&de
clit vll 418 linda 'fill 1961.
maak clit ole lau n18 .
o. 2 dalt7da ceverlt bet.
AI J1 nl. e t Die, aan lean Al. af nia .
t ~1 Vaal' beakal l¢a o. 2 ,.cllIl'8ru1e 1962 va,? tIT
i:lI 18 41. bele 1962. -- bet vir clle Indllstu:
l-ra 1'1,
It 1& 1ft ort i.li? til, vel'lIIOecl et.
OG ge4uren • 1962 ,0'1111' 31 II t, -- Port. 111ubeth,
bet beakllld a • 2 cI.ar gevert 7 _ .. t n1e or cl1t 885 maaMa Is nle,
l113ar IIa 41t is SKt1ld11da • 2 vel JOhanneubl1r& to • •
11 Jy dlls te UI1llI • 4.t beatuld1cda o. 2 ooce""1'
vir 6 aod. 111 1962 bl fnclustax ,everk bet? _ k kan
Ie 11 or ,Ut nOll pra81u 6 lD3aMa 18 ni.. a uld1~. • 2 1s 10 19 2 ., na die 1/q c toa, lut 111 4le Ja r •
.... t 111 clle Jaar 111 1~ 1a baakllldl,d. . .2 ve, na
dle -11le toe . ear? - 'kalI!lO n1e pre,lea .. or by 111
dl • .yDII pao '8rk bet 1110, maar by 1.: .... , eo 111 1963 bet
1 lcd' o. 2 tel'Ui ,ake , toe hilt by vir my '8 lIT kola
van JOba~n .. bur af, CDU41n1, 41t alult 18 bele Jobellllllaburg
111.
liou 1n1' -- Cloll41n1.
I,., 1 Die bel. 1tvatel'uand 100rd b .. Ulr as 418 GOUd1ll1 ,
t< valda 7 -- Ja.
"""~,,,-,I it 1181 18 t 1ft 19631 -_ JIl .
t JI laO t sklll..ll. o. '" 1n aa.nralt1Q ,kom or
£88180 ,edu -,de dla •• rate P '1' • or d18 .al'st. S8B
"'BllIIe, d1nk C!l<, cedureDd. ,1.1. tarate Ute 'fto 19627 _
J , OIlS bet Eke I' d.81' bl !lan .boa ... a bub ootmoat .
Ell daarna, sl Jl, bat. hT vardVJll t - nell: .
1,.1 us beslla dat bukulU • 0 • .2 nle 41. bele 1962
va ... a nle 7 - rrell:, liT atal dlt 80 dat cll ••• n 4 •• 1
Van 1962 WDE baskul.dlcde • .2 10 Fort ilizabeth an die onder
41 •• 1 vas by ves rave.s .
i!.\i.~ .... !.L!:.°lWl.l.:loi"-' 011 kow 70U ha". a fantB.t1c
- rl . IJ'ter aU these Jears JOU are • 18 to SIlT vUb .0
cart.1nt, tJlat 8c~u.wd t:. 2 .. as 8
Uzabeth 10 the t1rlt !:aU or 1962. _
- 163 -
of 1962 accU£eo • ~ VaD 1A Port isabeth, bu~ he lett
rt &Uubeth 14 tile l ... t halt or 1962.
Yes, )'Oil aaJ.4 that, but I'll .1111>C that ~ r1A 1t t
tast1c that 101le thNa ,,,ara lat81' 70U al'8 a le to say 1t
allCtl t.hat that is tile cue. - rile rep17 11 tMs
t 1. it the 8ttOl'IlII1 do.. 1. bel e .1t, be can call 111
alatar.
I'. Jut intarnte in 1011. -- 1962 18 not ao 10
810. 1t 11 Just 1'011 tba corner.
1'8 :fOil a creat trand of occa.sed Uo. 2? - Iel, ,04
we are related •
• aceusad '0. 2 I" l' avay froll ev 1, ton .. rUe l'
than tl118 particular ~111111 - I can't ,., tOl' carta14
that acculed o. 2 did cot leaYe rt .Il1aabet in 1961,
becausa 10lllll1.1lloa I sav
You didn't GO aro
IOlllOt1lDe1 I didn't I • him.
in one a;l'O ,did 7011' -- ot 81>187S. I alw 1a allV II.1.aI ther. at my s!star's placs.
•• "'cuaod. 2 Uvea near fI1 siater.
10ihere OIS he 11ve1 -- .Tab vu utraet.
hat 1'7 - 1 enD't, doo't knov tba number of
the boUIe, but up JabQYU t1'''1., he l1Vl1c1 04 t.he left IIaDd
sid • •
? .. he surname of tile clen of occu .. c1
• J.? -- lId8za (,> lqIIlala .
Ie that. 1.be 0017 !laW 7011 kAov? -- That 18 his IUl'Ill1_ .
~ clo 1011 spell it? - KlalDn,sa, MI. 1 8 b I •• e .
ow you told u, thnt at U .. s 1011 SIL1i accus. o. 2 and
at. 1.11101 70U d1cln't'? - Cornc.
70U didn't :'lOW a\ the tau 7011 d1cln't ... IWII,
vhether be vas tl»1'8 or not. - did oat MOW vhare III I .
that vas tor co siderable pelioda of t1lllll. --
DlIIet1mea tOr about a pel'.1.Dd at • IIOntb I id not ••• accl1Md
• 2, t.hen I voulcl Just III at ba at 117 dlter's place 04
:z dJd not •• It b.IJI JlMr. J» d b6,a. "id :fOil not I .. h1m tor per1od. in .zc ••• ot a month?
- lOt - tLAa t. - 1 tm 00 ""t1co . Olllett .... it y be lonpr.
as it o~ 10 relat.lon to 1962, tllat you can 581 vith
certa1l1ty t. t the accusad vas vay for 8 part t tha )'11 r?
- r", lie returll8d to Port IUubeth vben '-y at rtae!
to anest tbll people, art r tblly 8rreatad 1. .. peopk •
• 1t only 111 "laU.on to 1962. 1. t yoo can lay vlth
cut.alot. .. that. the aceu.. v. avay - Correct .
~oald lOU glv. as aU1 1 for. tlon about accused • 2' .
prannce 111 8Y l&hton dur1nc 1959' -- I don ' t Imov viler.
hi .a. ployed 10 19~9, but 1 saw accusad He . 2 10 1959.
Do 10u mOll it be vas .way at aU durin!: 19591 _
I cu't HU ber.
You can't rema. r vllether lie vas away dur10 1959.
-- lJe goGS on to 181 t t "CD ed • 2 1a a lllan vbe
laaves t place so_tille, tor a tiM ancl then all of a
/lU en you seo Il1m llca1o.
not . 1 can't rellallber.
1 can't say if he v a there or
XOU leo tile accttSld w111 8ay th:ot durloE 1959 ha V88
10 tile ll1nea tor 3 or It months 10 IleU'our 1n the 'rei tate .
-- 1 can't deny that •
• vent. back to Balfour for II furt'ler 2 or 3 IIiOntha
G t1Da later. -- I do 't re .. ber that .
Xou von't dany tt? -- I von't 8ny that, as I aaid
10 the fust place that a ceuaed o. 2 1& II elan \lho ~lI.at
1sa~p.ara. you don't a b1a tor a ttal and t~n he Just
co. 1 b ct .
01/ tba acouneS wU1 8ny ttut be vorbd tor ln411stU
,
Cooaolll1at4111 extUea 1n 1962. -- Be vorked there 10 1962.
ou s4a accused vill gree w1th lOu th t vorked
t re ap.,rox1llately 10 19511 . -- I aay worked 10 1962
tor Indust41x.
,,0 TOu deny that tbe accllud vorb for Industex 111
1\1581 -- don't rtlle2!lJ9r that accused vorlted tor tile
utU .. 10 1958, but 1 !lOY II t bs rorkce! (Of the Text1JBI 10 196':.
- 165' -And tho uccl1sd .. " that he vorked tor Induat.x apill
ill 1961. .tnted, be vorked tllere t1rst17 ap rCl%1ute17
1n 19).: and UlI! a 11.84 wU1 Bey 1n 1961 he (8il1 worke4
tor IndI1St.x . - I Oll ' t I' ..... ber that .
I want to put it to )'011 e1t1cal17 at. t.~. sta tllet.
lobe accusa v 5 alia:;, troll t.M eW 19bton area tor tile
"hole ot 1962. 1'111 vas io r1,hton tn 1962.
1'01' tne YolO18 ot 19627 -- J!a worked at In<1llstu tor
1962, but be lett . I dOll't know" II be lett.
II lett Induatex or " r1 Ilton' - I did not aee
111m ill." ightoll . I don't .ow wbat be nd to 111111.
o "ben did ~bII Icellae coma back to ev .igbtOll? _
1963 .tter the arresh 1n to8V righton.
D14 ha leave \ley 101'1 btOll II .ilI or did he DOt :leave
." -1Chtoll s,aill durio, 19637 -- Attlr accused returned,
be atartad to yorlt tor tbll 1c1pal1t)' ot I'ort l1zabetb.
list .. ort ot "orlt7 - hay 14 root l'8pairillg for t.IIII
Bch ola.
1)14 be at:I,Y ill .. " ~ton for the whola or 1963? --
Accuaed o. 2. lett ." r1chtoc . I don't kllOW it lie and
thus people yI]o repaiN roor. went to other plac .. .
tillu I 14 not see bia 10 lot 1, ton I.oc! tlo_ .
for yhat pert04a at tillo id 1011 DOt .,. t.1III ill Bev
1cbton Location durinr; 19631 - I can't Sa.Y I:cv 10 ".
ould it .urpr1sa )'ou to bur t t t a cunei ¥orne!
tor tha sbur, lia .. about .. to 5 IIOQtll.l 1n 1963' --
c beck lata 111 1963 to rt 1J:abeth.
t )'OU kncnr? - - Yel ,
d 14 lie leave' In 1963 )'ou RaW b co_ ~c and
vhen d1ll hi 1I0? - don't . ow. I Just did not •• hill
tllel'll _
ou14 1t surpt1se 7011 tc bear that 1t is our ease t t
be ceused 41 IlOt wort for the :wu.c1pal1t7 an route .
In 1963 berore CO..nS to ksblU'g, tll. IlCCU I sceol'd t
rq iutruct1ons, ,orlel 1n be '10 a-' t ,_ n. cor)' .... t.be
- 166 -
PDrt BUubeth aree. -- I saw accusad o. 2 and hi.
tr.1enda vho 1".d:1n Ha,aml3na tHat, vno vorkd on repa1r1ll&
zoot".
tare 70U aure thit it vaa 1n 1963' -- 1'. sure
a t tll.1t. aomet1m, broUght 8CIlI8 tins ot paint to
tile bOuse ot nan rnoua.
Is tbat wb1 70U say in 1963 be vu vOrkini in roota tor
tho 1tun1c1paUtyt -- And 1 alao aow h1.a vhon • to to II,Y
datal' in dUla Strut, I had to po .. tba bous .. ot accused
.0. 2, lorry 'lot tb8 noUSI, tile Bcb 01 in .la ala Street,
wb8re they "orud on tile ",ot ••
~1d.!I' iblJra ware you •• ployed at tba t1lle whln 70u saw
h1l1 workll1! at the schoolt - OIl the buaes. • 8815
that is now ~ route troll! hia hc\Ul8 to the urest bus atop .
a he 0 .. on duty be hal to PHS :adela street, pan h1a
sister'. nouse to catch a bus to 0 on duty.
You sea, the ac~ed v111 ,ay that he think. tb.tt
in 1960 d14 be spend 3 or .ant a ¥orkin! tor tile antu
Education Oepartlll8nt in too ttar" repa1rint; rootc. __
T t 18 not •
Do 70U know .. hera tim .ccuse~ worked in 19551 - I/o,
t ca!1' t reMllber.
C you relll!lIber lihtre the QCcu,,~ >lorked in 19791 _
• av tell M are 70U • ceneral adeha or are you •
1wla ablt? -- SIlV1lIa ElabaDJ., eneI'd is tq brothar.
You wodlLn't reallY describe y~selt s a clclI. rela
tift ot tbe accused, vou14 CU? -- Ifo, onlY the clan 1llI1lI8.
Dc you KnOW all7tll1n: libout aecuHcI o. 2'11 tamlly?
Ilow 1Da1l7 aiaters 11:14 broth he s, .. hat ~ parents'
Dam .re, t t sort ot t'l1nl. -- I don't l<JlOv h1s parente'
nalMa. I 01117 kM\I thea II)' dght. tiler :luld £1 ..
tile Court hla pa nta' nalll83.
Do you 1c."lQ\I no.. IIIaD1 bl"othllra an aiate G be ., __
I don't Iumv.
- 167 -
Do JOu k.'IOlI tbo1r names or IIOt? - I 40n't 'l1:1li a1l1-
t~ about Ida fam1lJ, vbother tboy ..,.. III81'rie4 or not .
Yeu IlGver ent into the1r hollaG? - 0, I only paln4
t re, stOpped and stood «t t , t • •
the bUll, I take it, there v • alv.,a a lot Of
p.ase~er.. - ~I.
:tou ... re otten nry bUS1. - (.orreot •
• ow the accused • .,. :that he 18 not a fr18nd of yoW's,
although he agree. tllat you are IIIOlIbers ot the .... Clall .
- MCU d o. 2 1& not an actualJ'r18nd of .. ina . • are
Oilly nlatld "1 the ellie, IUld "0 are only acquaintances .
An the eccase vill car that he d14 aomet1lllea drink
in your a1star. bcUS8, wbere he "OUlu .... t you people . _
that 18 cornet.
t he deo1 .. that yoU .,..r C;~3l"d tor;.tber. _ Yea,
~~ a.b1ed to tber.
I ... tbllt batore 19577 ~- Defor. 19S7. t that
t1l:e VB did cot Know that ~ ... are relata , wa "era atill
fOungatara then.
For bow lone d14 10a voHo: .t the bUI eo pany7 _ 'lhu
18 IlOW 11!1 tOIr th year.
Ey ft i : II EX ptt . Ci.
JI het deur&!l811J1 onder la"u1snrb r ppra.t van yoor en ca
omlt.sl8a. !:l.
cneer va. d18 I'Oqa arr , ... 1 II V38rv n Jy Pl"Il t? _
Vanal Apr1l 1963.
D 1. d1t \l bno en , .. Jt1,edttWld YOO"al 1n JOu
18 ot Gil ontbcu ~y it 7 - at -:I swaer caD van
1. groot kappa van a VaG. • ro oatbou ale it.
111 Val d18 IV.ar' -- Oa 1 rbolasl .
v a by in 1963 arrest .. r at a1d __ l' 3 is by
parr .. t •• r .
• a r baia a rutuiu r; dureDd 481 Js tyd P _ .1" •
- 168 - t .
1 J)' .loard1a t)' to jou le,... vugeeU - oo1t •
v •
..... - ve lOU .popo to t~
other .. it .... sses 10 th1s case? I abo:old De &Ol'C lpec1t1o,
J;) Jacoba, Jasepb M,raU, :elmut 18 1 and r4 banga?
-- c .
Do you know thell? - 8 were orraated tagotber, but
va "'r8 oat kept tapthor .
o.Ii4 you arrlve here Josterde77 - 0, ~ arrive4 10
4.r OClt tbia IIIOrolo& troll a'Qrt "l1nbat .
,"celis d • ellS to tW.oll tbat be aaw JOU .. alklog .. lth
Jo:seph -7atl ,uterdQ. - that can't be . ught hove
.nn 111 ahOat .
Are JOU 8 4e.d I18n'l - o .
o vN' do JOU taa at' Jour g lit'/' - Perhaps ba
iii t hav. II 0 rq elder brat "bae.usa he 1C>Qlta Just l1ke .... Is JOur alder brat r 1ri Cral1ocll:? -- I 40n ' t knOv .
a you have reason to beliave tbat your a148r brotbar
1& 10 t.rad Cit? - ° reasa . I Just told t Court .
It you have no rlnQO to balleT. t ),our elder brothel'
h ln C dlick,"111 do Jau IU lilt til. t ha II1ght have .... n
t.1ll'l - cause that accused o. 2 88)'8 he aav me va1l<1o&
1t tbia ot r III8.!l flIaterdq. that' S vll1 I aaid s •
........ ...=. K¥ . 1 Juat pt SOIlll clarity as to .. the
cecua. h that sa14 be t.bOucht he saw the W 1tnGSI 'I
k ld ........ 1 Accus.d 0 • .2 .
! wE. ,h I \ lJj !,gt I , I D1t 1$ clan nOli 41e .. rste
ptul8 op 418 v rlegglo van 41, ll11b1, saar 800' all: reeds
aaa&adu1 he t, daar 11 DOC verda ,.tuies OJ> pad na h1erdl8
t en op die vaona rein S008 ~re u1ta.n 8it is , YJ'JI
• dat alt 1tlt1lllsan '1 .. 81< deit, dat. 418 ,"foorte!lOU
.at dl. EDa kaur1lli "an 41a r , o. ault ta bll'Opao sodra
daar il ,stUial ~ as. r Dit ata aa e Il,.telarll.
{:t S Dr, [, r,. (V
.L\A!1A.:JlW~..i/;W=:,!:WCi!t1 :./,\/",l=:':"=:'::"--.ll a •• • (ftcused • 1) .
old aN 10Ul -- 1 y.a • •
"lIere I< 1'8 )'OU Uv!ug before ,our ar aU --
liaka wtreat, v ht LocatlOD,. rt ;Uubeth.
hat nwollctr 1n.1mU tr .... t? -- '0. 11.
ow )'ou'''' oaD 10 ourt and ),OIl ' V' heard the .vidance
that VIIB ,1".n on behalf or tile Dt to in t is attar. - Y • •
"hat do lOU uy a ollt that evs..: nce insotar .. it arrecta
- It 11 aot tr • ra Ipoc1!lcall7, Il,tva )'OU .ver be a a K'~b<lr or the
orcaai.atloa &no"n a. Jan r1can1st Conere.a or P. .C. or
~qo' - o.
ow, it 1. the tate case t t IOU attends tour ... tin.s
or tbe or aniastloa ttl' 8 ~1I.t rererred to .
.a), to t t? - It 18 t GO .
hat 40 you
Ila .. 10U evor .tta ad a:.y .. tin a or that orcanl8ation?
- D.
youarel v1tll poUtical loteruta? - •
II .v14anc. I<1iS 11 .... bf tb8 varlous vitae.se. aa to
bOv and aben tM), became .c~ loted v1tll )'ou.
tile •
- 1. beard
ow aben did )'OU ,. t t 0101 John Jacobs? -- nbe
vas • ploy. at t ~ . , 1I1g ~rks .
\Oben as tbat? - About 19611 .
liaR yon also worlt1Ac t that Ume tor tile SaM t ?
- taa , . III 11'1047 10:01'.1110, tben" I Iw Itarted tMrc .
'an ,JOIl l' IIlbar IV r s e1Di John Jacoba before last
),ear "non ba start d to work together vltb )'on? - ,d.
-n we coma to ~b:ut •• 110 Ja:cn;n aa ZClda lC)'ekl .
Ill • •
ve 30U S en t 11 man as oar1)' aa 1%21 - - the rust
I'd KnOVD ~ W 8 in 1963.
IJ e 't NIJIliI:!lbIJ l' • • IUJII ~ror. th tf - r .. , I 1lD_ hill, sev hllll \lOr 1.11 I.t the .r..
- 170 - • 19 •
Wbare? - At tl» pring orlts .
t d1cl JOu ov in 19621 - I 41c1 not ":IOV • '01' _ lon:; bave JOII bovQ a1'l1 llabanp l' - Three
J.ar • •
Abollt JOMph aU, "bat ean 70U taU us abollt JOur
blolila4£1 about It1JIt - I r11'st uv ha at tha pr1ng \Crka
in 19611 .
ov 41c1 70U IVaI' co an,. .ttlo,. vith thai. peopll
I ' ve _ntioned to 70u? - I DIver wnt to _tings.
D1cI JOu Iver go arottru1 w1th In,. or these peopla' - _ 10 •
•
i1:ll....A!ll!6lo!lw. :s., bet v11' JOII advall:aat
10 pas .. , elat 418 lIeta..1nu1a VIII b1e1'l118 hat.ptu18. 18
leuena. - rrek.
I., U oortu1, \\ 8"ant - Oortu1g .
J., VOIl dat bie1'l1te 11811l1. t b Itlo:np lauell. bier kom
vel' 01141, 0lIl ~on 10 418 _1111tbeld ta plaas . - Korre .
D18 oppltookta ator.1a 0lII Jon in d18 tronk te kr7.
-:Sl, saar 41t .18 n1a d18 Yra , n1e . - oorrell: .
1Ctk. laat on. 1181u1U' nou hid Ian 418 be,in I'll ver-
ltaU!. IIoen1l pro*r 0lII _t 4 rIa 18 te III 1118, WI1!lt elt
la1 saar nat" er I1t74 1'I&IIlt IIIItt JOu • 3., a4 dus det
b1erd18 IIIItnse bat I1la 11dv11' "gverd1cbe1cl "1'1001' In
buUe gawltallll lIond8r ll1tlonder1n; verm, oa Jou ol1Skllldl,
111 d18 _lU1t1»1cI ta beland . _ , .
En val' d1ll "IIS8 bier .. I hit 18 J., vanda, oortn,
vall, .18 111. b Inltal. WQord van VOSl' 1118 . - - U. vute1
11 1lII!I.E •
L1ent18 .. lise •• ,.tll1ania U 1Il plieel b b klnmp
kootta laUCIlll CllII JOII 111 4111 _111Jche1d til brins. _
- 71-ll.e Te rte 1 buena .
la, 418 VI' sa 11 .. nvoud1, d18 vo1,and.. 418 .. 11Se
•• ,It 18n1a 1D 8Y &ebeel 1& b opl:ako~kta .n op,e nitta
storle . - Die lellens .
Jy 1a varbaal oa te l18n 48t \'J Ens tot IUlks d1llge
.ill Itaat 11 . -- Ja, alt V38 verbaes .
lr vra 41t d18 t d ardle .. na ... ~tll1ea1. 1n 17
beal .ill toto _t nnter • -- rrek, n18 ean IIOOrd at cl18 abare ,10 vat bul • iii nle .
018 pre81u ... at alt (lOu ",ou ,eYrll hat . Jy vat 418 rd.
so u1t 117 IDO a1t. Haar 'k veraltU van Jou. 17 al nou
dot d18 t t Jon &.tll18a1a nnvasr . _ , .
ly s4 daard18 man.. 1a b klo lIuenaarl . _ Ja.
Haar .claar 1a 4erem toe 411l vat bulle lea' bst, 418
..... rbs14 . <at and,r woo • 4ear 18 11001'4. vat "aar 1 •
- Rae, bull. vartal .11 •• lIlI4IllS .
Onttan Jr dat , byvoorbae14, JOI.ph, n18 b7 3 I), at lIat
81< 4lt GIlt 10 ,tal dat Jon,,1l 1Il CO.!IQlckaratraat Illy, Josaph
-TDU? -- 111 11 cla r .
!let all4er voorda dlt 418 v arhe14 . - Da.r bst by
4ie va rbe 14 pal as b,y a bl1 1Il COIl!llc1taratroat .
SO uit al .7 "tll1anJ.a bet by tog t utare 41nl; 418
VUl'Ila1d ppraat. ...t 1.1 4la _U1lthe14? __ ~ vUllOa
net .... t at ball. die ... aarbeld pa' t... bulll bl1 •
• a, dn is n18 418 vraac n18 . Lauter ne rJ7 vraas.
Elkaan van h1er4ia &stn18. bet 001' •• are 411l&e d18 "aarbot!d
,apr t . la dit co? -- ia 411l&a vat hulla olDtrent qo
PI' t 11 n18 d1a vaarbs lei n1.a .
flail' cU. 8Il4er 411lca 1. 41e ... aarbsid t - let v II'
bnll. hl1.
I. dlt vaar? - 11 al. vat hull. dle vaarha14 ppraat
bet .
t ball. Delrea is 41. va rbslc1t __ !lie vat ball,
,as' bet hulle bet au lII8t IfIl goot lfYOra, 411 l~(Ma •• MIt 18 117 vreAjl? - Ilia vrl., lisa ce ...... ot claar part)'
- 172 - •
yaft 418 ,oe4 is vat d18 I111I1M ppra t bet, ot 41t cl18 war
be14 " s .
J1 818n, at wU hi J,. meet luistar. KDII ell: _tal dlt
8n no " .. r so . Aili. 111 leuens, bebalve bulle .ddresn.
- 18 vat bqlls nrtal Tan 4is vergader1ng. an van I'Dqo
is lauens.
AIle. is lell8ne bahalve bulla a eire... -- JI, bebalwa
418 adresse is al 418 GlII,Iera leu-ru.
t yan hulla o1lderel~' Is dlt leusne7 -- Bk" t
n18 'Van bulle owe relO 1118 •
Muar dlt is IIIOOntLtk "ear? - Elt Iten 1118 8tr1 4a r
018, "ant e t 018 ....,.8 .. t bulle croot ,;evorel 1118 .
I ... t ,,. of 41t "sar 111 en of 41t ailll:l8n b leuell is?
11 4lt ree1 - va.t 1118 .
bulla kvallt1lCul8l' -
.!l8II .. t bulla op alCo~l nia .
"u noolt
K!;.otr 41t kan aoolltUIC wlar wees? -- Elt Iran nia IIIIIt
bulla .t!'J 43al'OTltraot n1a .
Maar '-Ito al j,. dis 81le. leUSllll, 80 r recuJ,t .
OMar TOorbaboud _I J1 418 aU .. lauens . Itolll? - -
bet TlUl 01l<a aode ... ppraat 018 bellal". 418 4111", van
PoC/O 018 .
llee, ell: ken ~ou "oorela aallbaal , alke voorel vat hiarel18
IDOnee Tartal bet is lell8D11. -- bet pprs t van Poqo .
e, dis 018 so n1a . Movur DOtI ., voord daarvoor,
not at 1ll1star _t a.n4at: Vlt Jon ,atwnie ls. Z7 bet
nie 10 ,811' t11a . J,. bat eea' al.ka word vat bulla preat 111
leUCIne . - Bk bat ,II en op h1erel18 cl1nge .... n !'tIqo.
ar clan _t 31 111 cll8 nrvolg bale 11001 lulster na
rq nea, boor? It! cllt b belorta7 - Dis b !lelorte •
.. nnaer 18~,. erreataar Tir hind.1a .. aU - 9
AprU 196;.
dis 1ft p"ar .. anda vat J,. oou al in be,tenis 11 .
- 1)18 darcla _and lUIll 1t1,
En taduren;Ia hierdia t)'4 bet hiardl8 auk soas b lIate vol.t
- 173 - JmWm!. boltant Jou £ep pbang. Ik bet nil oor 4it pd1nk de,
vant alt ve t tl1lul YaB el18 .ult 1'an dte belku14lgin& taan
nil, ell alt bet nie caveat vat OlD ta £em !If nia.
0, lit be t 1101 nil 4a rU. Yrll" P'll"ll nia, maar ona sal
nOI 4 rb1 £e . toe 11111'418 aDsit'll IlInvan, pll ... bet,
bet 411 41nge JOu bagin belt r? - Da r 1133 'II banol!&-
be14 in IIJ,'f pvees, want lilt vas dlo aerste IIISl vat alt
p rl'lst.ar vard .
En Jy bat toe blllla1t, dat 1t0lll vat v1l, al Ik in 48 r41a
ptu1abanlt caan, ontDn elt t aU .. vat 4aar ",al 11; . -
bet nle pveet vat ,ean celli vord bier in 4ia IDr nil,
want alE vas nol ooolt g'a!T8staer n1a.
Maar toe dll8l'dia benoUdbe14 JOu cmltlall bat, bat Jy
nia toe pboOl' vat dia I118n&8 , .. G bet n187 - EIt bet daar
ealt In lit bet & IIOor vat d18 ptllloa
p , bot hieno, vaal' ft: nou ataan.
n I oa hulla &8tU1&, eo bat Jy besllllt dat tit sal tilt
OI1tkll . ta 4lt nil lICI nlo? Is 4lt so? - Ja, vant 4lt
is nla dl1 vaarbaid nia .
la, 31 t beal.it alt el ontkan v.o " tot. %. - Is,
vant alE v t dan nilta van nia .
Prealas . .17 bet nll 0 gee vat hulle sl nia . -
Ja, "aBt elt veet nll 'at hUUa YaB praat bet nie .
t "at bun. colt .11 sf 18 lall8ll1 en moat lauena
veea, ad 1nt1n1 t •
t 11e PUaKo
Is dlt 10? - Mal'dll 4in 0 vall foqo
Jy bet nia aera bela.nc patU in vat bUlla gear bet
a1e . pra.t vall bulla '" tullllla . - n bat 011 0 -
Ii. nil, "ant dlt 18 11 d18 wouba14 vlt 418 I118nse praat
n18 . ve t 1118 .. t hull. 1'ao praat nll .
lou bel ... ua ~.t, v .. oat op aan din, Il18tel vallt 4lt
11 b Itlo J.nrue blataBte lauens . - Dis ItorHk , dit
vu nat lauana vat bUn. ppraat bet .
JOIl 18 1181$8 18 Ilet lnpstel 0 ta ontlten. _
at hi.r4ia 411ge Poqo t bp boa ingestal sal b.7
- 11'+ -allea ontteD.
D1t la die &lIu oorb .. raell4e raktor, l1 _t nat on n,
dlt II 01 ",at lou ta dO'lD Itun. Is dlt 807 - lJeha1"l1
die vat hull. ~ hulle un rrrr en va I' hulle bl1 en vaar ell
bl1, dlt V8I die vauba14 .
D1t 18 lnterulIaDt . i'oqo 18 laaens 113.81' vaal' !mll.
bl1 In at hulll rrrr DII en hulla cetulonis 001' :ldentltalt 111
dll voarbeld . - .la, ~aD I1Iqo db 1.U8OS, waar lla
sf hul1e kiln rrrr In van ell. bl1, 41s dll vaarbl14 .
sf 411 c-tulln18 DOl' jou Id1ntltelt 18 vaar? _
:uUo borDa rrrr, hulll ken Irq ie •
.1, wet die t3'd I~ 1IlID, ~1 t lIOn begin bee1ult vat
J1 • Ilalle letulenis 001' qo 18 leuens. - Ja •
• It b die >I.arba1d? - waar hull. "ut waar ak bl1
en ffAJ na •
~ dlt a1'l - Ja.
au l1llU en JOu drea la t,djlerk b dit rrek'l Bk
bar alt Jou WIelD, JOII adrea on die tydperk vat hullo jou
II:ln, <l1t 18 vaarbaU . - Port3 prent 411 va rba1l\ In pert3
,1' tle •
.1'1 11cn dlt 18 wet rq problelm 18. "It valli' trek ons
nio ADU at nll. Maar toe j'l 1D d ardll ,Itull ok.... re
ltaaD, toe bolt J'I not 'en d1nc op JOu brein In <lit Is ont
baota,. Dit ,,11 ~ toe Ik be,u hat t kruis'lnboor.
J1 aU ...
h otallln aaD Jou lila
4eur ontQ • .11
Slan, rq prob1oem 1. In III: v11 nou
, dlt jou ball ft .. val' oorhlers
t bes.t Clat dlt 18 Jou enlglte
ultVlI 0 onttenninc to ak dat II dur Die &rond,,11' 18-
... erboor is nie . J1 hat baa1ult clat ... t dll Staat Jou
,un "ra, PaD 31 ontten. Dtt la hoe.toII J1 a1 dll ont-
IaInnlnp aIt t . Is d1t korrakf -- ~ ken !l1l h
1nc barken .. 41t ni, 11 "earlle 11\ II D1e .
Wat .. an ., ste]1lne vat ek aan JOU uak!let?
JIl' no 41. ''lit JJ non .tal t , IV vU jIl'aaJ at et 11 stalUo, non berh3 •
- l'1~ -Yo al' ell: vll bit 3, _t lu1atel'.
3°u vra -.y atelllrla t() barbell.
-.y lu1atar . t wu IIfI .tal11a&' --
.nt at ,un JOu vlr
vl1 vasstel ot 31 aa
D18 vru, vac .na ..
t u nia vir Ifi1 ,avra 1118, toe all; claarvan 10 bastuldl a
IlAJlk at' na 418 ,ataJ.8baJi1t toe caito bet, ot lit nou net dle
an 081 voor o{i ,alacl liet 011 aU •• ta ontlten.
"'111 re&. at la cloaroll Jou ant.woord? £k rag. - AI
dit nia die vaarbald 18 nie • • al all: dit. nlo uun aJ.8 .
Ha_r hoaltolll bet " 4it. a ontkac, Ilia w arbe1d oot?
t ander voorde bOelto .. bet JI 18 Wll&l'bacl vat dla 118Jl3e
verll:oncl1g bat, ontltln? wetom bat j)' ,ael clllt alke woord,
vet hull.e 11 onvaart I'kla I' dU . - Ek bat ,.d1nlt
del. 41t vas vir rtI1 &evra of ale saam mt Ilull, &lloop bot na
dle v.r,a er1/1is toe .
Dlt vas • n18 dla vra , n18 . £It t 1101\ n1a b
woord apr at aars Va!l '0 0 n1e . bat £9pl'a t V8!I t1l1a-
c18 . Stell mat IIfI .. am ot v8I'st11 . b 1'8 U1te lIIIas •
..... t j7 at em to ontltln 18 el18 matl1lt.te 1l1tnl. la CU
n18 .0 n18' t 1s 418 IIJlIll1l1:bl1c1? - at as b-..os
nn n cllJIi It at clan .IIraat J7 van •
.aar J7 aian at pan DOU vir d18 follt VI'S om allte ant
woord aan IIfI ta vert,olk. n 11 at vat JOIl "robl.. la.
vant on. aukltll ao 011 JOIl ptll18nls te kr7. J, at . t
1a jou 1tva11r1kas1as' - tc1 . 6 .
O. all: alan dla IlDIiI' .. anlga va" 41_ taatsgatu1a ...
laIal1t1kas1as . IIi lt 80' - bat boor toe bulle ..
nt hulla latal1trus18s •
D18 IlO¥r as ft1&.,n van bulle . - Ja .
la ,lit gnel, 1IlII1' . ella lk . as_b1Ut 111 d18 vervolE
IIOlit 37 .1 dla anb.-oord., III 1a ellt ll/)U clla ••• ons1nn1p
ant-woord, elt sal , u, <laarop ... 11 to:mIIl1taar law r daarap
later .. n.. it.a 1, 1£ . - - Goad . • clla Aanltlaar.
_ r bat.\,. tel . 6 ,alDaalt' - 1961.
bet Jl' AI oo!t 1n .tau len '00: JOu prrutu1a, van
rdie oqo bawec1a& ,eboor? _ la.
Collection Number: AD1901
SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials Court Recorda 1958-1978
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