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VISIT OF TEE

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PARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION

OP THE"

ARAB REPUBLIC OF EGYPT

TO THE KNESSET

19 ­ 25 January 1981

I,'Jerusalem, Israel

1* 0י$רי roA

Visit of Egyptian Parliamentary Delegation to the KnessetJanuary 20, 1981

Mr­ YitzhackBe!man,Speaker­ of the Knesset t Members of the Egyptian delegation andthe Israeli delegation, itos a great pleasure for us toreceive you here0 to welcome you. We are sincerely glad tohave you with us. It is a unique opportunity for members ofthe Egyptian Parliament of both houses, and for the IsraeliParliament, to discuss the problems ^ that face both countriesafter the peace agreement. I hope, we all hope, that this :;

^ is only a first meeting, the first of many meetings to come.

It is a unique opportunity and we hope that this dialogue'* . which, as I said, I hope is the first, will be a fruitful one.

I also hope that we shall all state our views frankly, witha purpose of paving the way. for more meetings of this kind, ,

and also to assist our two governments in understanding theviews of members of Parliament to the problems which thegovernments have to face during their negotiations.

We agreed with the head of the Egyptian delegation,Dr . Sbdallah, that members will limit their remarks to fiveminutes. I hope that next time we shall be able to enlargethe time but since this is the first meeting I think thatfive minutes could be sufficient. Thank you very muchoDr­ M. 4/Abdallah, ';

lieader­drSereg.;; Mr. Speaker, dear colleagues, in fact we want/., .''\ to thank you for your hospitality and I agree

with you Mr­ Speaker that it is a unique opportunity to know

each other better and I hope it is only the first meeting and

I hope that we will have a new exchange, of points of view,during the visit of our Israeli colleagues to the EgyptianParliament 0

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In reality, being here, it's really the best proofthat normalization between the two countries is going verystrong and that we are keeping the peace momentum. There Isno Precise agenda. I think that we'll let it open to exchangeour Points of view concerning the future of the Peace and

when we say Peace, in our conception, it's a comprehensive,global. ever­lasting Peace, the just peace, for every countryand for all the Parties in the Middle East, and that cannotbe thieved without finding the just solution to the core ofthe Problem ­ the Palestinian Problem­ Thank you, Mr. Speaker,and we hope that this exchange of points of view will be

fruitful for 1™tual understanding.

^L^ern^, With your Permission I will call upon Dr. ArenS,who is the chairman of our Defense and Foreign

Affairs Committee to make a few remarks­

D^JLrenss First of all. I have to admit to our guests, theChairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, and

to our Weaker, that I'm completely unprepared and I thoughtthat I would just come and listen and after I heard what some

of our colleagues from Egypt and Israel have to say that Iwould then respond, So maybe in short I will just relate tothe opening remarks, that I'm sure that you will find amongstthe members of the Israeli Knesset the very same desire andlonging for establishing Peaceful relations on a sound and

stable and Pe™anent basis between Israel and Egypt and betweenIsrael and every one of the surrounding countries.

I'm sure that you understand the feelings of all Israelis,based on over 30 ysrars of the first years of Israel's existence,where it was our conception that all our desire for Peace would

be rejected by every one of our neighbors, including Egypt,2 ­

and we had to fight five wars, because in Israel we alsoconsider the War of Attrition of 1969­70, which was one ofthe wars which we had to fight, in which we had many

casualties, that we had to fight five wars, none of which

was initiated by us, before we came to that historic turningpoint of negotiations which thereby led to a peace agreementwith Egypt­ And of course we are hoping and praying thatwe will have to fight no more wars before we will have an 1

opportunity to carry on the negotiations with other Arab .;

neighboring States. ­

There obviously must be some reason for the fact thatthere were so many years of enmity, that there was so much

blood spilled on the battlefield, there must be some veryserious differences of opinion, some very contrastingobjectives, desires, and I think that it is important forus to be realistic, to be aware of them, and I think onlyan awareness of the points of view of each of the parties,we will be able to face a realistic agreemento

I know that the question of the Palestinian problem,the solution of the Palestinian problem, is an expressionthat is used very frequently, not only in Egypt, not onlyin many parts of the world, but also in Israel o And yet Ithink that not many people have bothered to define the problemsexactly that were referred to, that bothered to determine r

what likely solutions to that problem would be and have shown

an awareness of the fact that the number of problems of theworld that have no solution is far larger than the number of

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problems that we know are solved, and that certain definitionsof the Palestinian problem there really is no solution exceptthe elimination of the State of Israel o

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I think it would be good for the time that we aregoing to spend together be demoted at least in part to an

analysis of that very problem I referred to, the Palestinianproblem, and the extent to which it is at all soluble withoutinfringing on Israel0 s right to exist and or Israel's abilityto exist.

Mr0Berman 8 Thank you. I would just like to point out that thebaskets of fruit in front of you are not plastic,

they are not ornaments and not just for the benefit of the :

television, so please help yourselves.

Pro Abdal lahi Thank you Mr­ Chairmanar,d , in fact, before Igive the floor to one of my colleagues 5 I would

like to state clearly that we never in Egypt thought of theelimination of the State of Israel, and when we talk aboutfinding a solution to the Palestinian problem maybe we'llhave a different approach but basically we are here, when Isay we are here in Israel and President Sadat himself said inthe Knesset that the 1973 war must be the last one, so I thinkon this point of view we have something in common, that we

both are against, we don0 t believe and can0 t imagine how thatcould be done, and I mean how can the State of Israel be

eliminated­ I think it is not realistic to start believingthat any member of the Egyptian delegation here has in his "

mind this idea. So I just wanted to make this point cleart©

before giving the floor^Minister Mahfouz who is a member ofth^ Shura Council' 00 \:,n:;:^cr; .

Min.Mahfouz 8 Thank you !ir . Chairman. Ites very importantwhen we start such a dialogue based upon a

frank exchange of ideas and frank statements we have to agreeon certain basic concepts. And I believe the first concept is

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that there shall be no war in this part of the world anymore.Enough bloodshed, enough destruction, and I think we are allcivilized and we can settle our disputes and settle ourdifferences of opinion around tables and around discussions.That's" the first concept.

The second concept is that there shall be peace foreverybody, not for us, Egypt and Israel, but peace for every­body in the Middle East, because unless we achieve that, we

will never be getting a lasting good relationship. .:

The third concept would be that security for everybody,security is not to be considered as a one­sided problem,security is to be shared between neighbors, good neighbors,and good human feelings along the borders and alpng the region.

The fourth concept would be that peace is our objectiveand everything we talk about is methods to achieve peace, so

that normalization of relations, which is partially a tacticalproblem, could only be discussed in that context being a method

to achievepeace 8 rather than the main strategic objective.

We have differences of opinion, we must agree that thereare differences of opinion, regarding the concept of security.We have differences of opinion as regards normalization. We

have differences of opinion as regards the right of thePalestinians to have their self­determination, their human '

rights, their State, and their existence. Such differencescan only be solved, not on the battlefield, because we have had

the bitter experience, both sides, but should be solved by

thorough understanding, by displaying and. respecting bothsides0 points of view and trying hard to build the confidence,bridges of confidence that we can, through such dialogues,achieve, a permanentsolution, for the so­called Arab­Israelidispute.

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Mr­ Chairman, I don't think that in the a lowed 5*6

minutes we can take point­by­point but just to put the basicconcepts and that both sides would agree upon the basicconcepts so that things would. be easier later on. Thank you

Mr. Chairman­

Mr. Ben Meirs Mr. Speaker, Chairman of the Egyptian Delegation,Dr­ Abdeilah, , fellow colleagues of the Knesset

and of the Egyptian Parliament. Firstly, I would like to addmy own words of welcome, on my own behalf, on behalf of my

party" and I'm sure on behalf of the entire Knesset, welcome

and greetings to our distinguished guests, the delegation ofthe Egyptian Parliament. This is the first time that we have

a visit of such a distinguished delegation from Egypt to theKnesset here in Jerusalem and Iom sure we all will join inour fervant hope and prayer that this get­together shouldbe the first one, amongst many, many meetings and gatheringswhich we will share together in the Israeli Knesset and theEgyptian Parliament, both here in Jerusalem and in Cairo s formany, many years and many, many generations to come.

It*s just a little over three years, from the importantand historic visit of President Sadat here in our capital inJerusalem at the Knesset, and if I'm thinking back how farwe have come and how much we have achieved in these threeyears, certainly more than any of us, I think, could have

believed four years or five, six years ago. I think thinkingback to that important visit which moved us all in Egypt andin Israel, I remember that on the last day of President Sadat8 svisit here to the Knesset in Jerusalem he met with the variousfactions, parties in the Knesset. We met, Mr­ Chairman, in this

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very room and I think President Sadat sat in the chair inwhich you are sitting right now. I myself sat (laughter)0.a few chairs away, where Mr. Lorch is sitting, and I hadthe honor to speak then on behalf of my faction. And ,inspeaking to President Sadat I expressed my fervant hope thathis visit will only be the beginning of f momentumy , and you

also, Dr. Abdellah, , mentioned that this meeting is part ofa momentum for peace between the two great peoples, greatand ancient peoples, which we both represent­ And PresidentS^dat, in his reply, related to what I had said­, He said, ­

my young friend here mentioned the need for momentum and Ihope that indeed we will be able to achieve momentum" As Isaid, at that time, there were hopes and prayers which we

all shared, President Sadat and the entire Egyptian People,as well as Prime Minister Begin aird all of us here in Israel,and thank G­d we have achieved so very much in these threeyears­

So first of all, I think, at this first meeting, itwould be appropriate for us to take cognizance of indeedwhat we have achieved, and we have succeeded, Mr<> Arens, asthe chairman of my committee, mentioned before, to putting,­.and also Dr. Abdellah. mentioned, and other colleagues mentioned,we have succeeded in putting an end. to 30 years of bloodbhedand we all believe, as you have expressed, that this indeedis an end, a final and permanent end, to the tragic bloodshedwhich has marred the relationship between our two peoplesand which as mentioned before we have all felt the great tragedyinvolved in these wars which we have had.

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We have signed a peace treaty among us, a permanent

and final peace treaty, which has created a condition of peace

and a state of peace between Israel and Egypt. We have begun

to normalize relations between us, and this important visitis another step forward in a process of normalization betweenour two peoples.

I would like to make in the short 2­3 minutes p two orthree comments on some of the issues fac ing us.

First of all, I think we in Israel believe that it isvery important to turn the peace treaty between governmentsinto a reality of peace between peoples. And the only way todo this is to have human contact on the human level. Members

of Knesset and Members of Parliament, teachers, lawyers,doctors, workers, industrialists, etc­ )applause) I thinkthis is very important for us and we certainly want to, we

have the Egyptian ambassador here who heips us in this areain encouraging mutual tourism, mutual meetings, and we believethat to that degree we will indeed. be able to cement thegenuine and permanent peace between our peoples, not onlybetween governments and our countries, because we all realizethat in the final analysis it is the peoples that determine.

The second point I'd like to make ­ we all agreethat the peace between us must become a comprehensive peace,as you have stated. Both President Sadat andPrime MinisterBegin in countless opportunities have stressed, as it issigned in the Camp David accords which both our countrieshave solemnly signed­ and are committed to follow, to abide,and to fulfill,. is we want a comprehensive peace between Israel,between the Jewish people living here in our ancient homeland

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in the Land of Israel, and the Arab peoples around us, allthe Arab peoples together­ When I spoke to President Sadat,thinking back again to that time, I said, we are ready to meetyou half­way and more than half­way in trying to reach peace.I think, as I have said­ that we have­ gone a long way, andwe in Israel certainly have tried to meet half­way and more

than half­way in trying to work together in reaching .anagreement and and we do believe that we have to have acomprehensive peace agreement.

And the final point Iod like to make, you raisedthe Palestinian question, etc­, and Prof. Arens raised it too,and I would like to say again to our distinguished friendsand guests from Egypt, I think we all, here in the Knessetand Israel, recognize that indeed we have to, as part ofthis comprehensive peace agreement, solve these outstandingissues that exist between us. We are committed to this inthe Camp David agreements which, as you know, has been approvedby this Knesset by a very large majority­ And the Camp David

agreement also states that we should take into considerationthe legitimate interest* and aspirations of the Palestinians.But I think it is important for us to stress and for all of us

to understand that we must also take into consideration, andI'm sure you will agree with me on this, as I know is part ofthe Camp David agreement, both also the legitimate nationalaspirations of the Jewish people, who have returned afterthousands of years of suffering to an ancient homeland whereour People was created, where our culture was developed­And of course the important areas of security for Israel­

Again, if I might quote President Sadat sitting in thechair where you are sitting now, he said, we must relate to

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two key issues ­ the October War must be the last war, and

the question of security. And you know that we, the peopleof Israel, the Jewish people ­ have suffered so much, are so

rightfully concerned because for us the question of securityis a question of the very life of ourselves, our women, ourchildren, now and. in the generations to come and thereforealso this concern which we have, we want to be able toshare with you and to feel the genuineness and candidnessof this concern which is a genuine concern, I would. sayactually part of our blood and our very being.

In my final sentence of conclusion, Mr­ Chairman,again I would like to say, again my distinguished colleaguesaid before, we may have different approaches, we are in­volved in negotiations, we have surmounted many obstacles,and I believe we can surmount obstacles ahead, but no

matter what differences of opinion and approaches we may

have, and even deep differences which we may have on

important issues which divide us, we must all be unitedon the fact that the only way to solve these differencesis indeed at the negotiation table. And as we move

forward in solving them, we hope that in no way should thisobstruct our desire to move forward on the normalizationprocess, on the meetings of people, on cementing and. buildingtogether the peace between us which is the basis and thefoundation for a future of hope and. brightness and lifeand prosperity for both our peoples and for all the peoplesin this region.

Dre AbdQllahi I would like to present to you Mr­ Moustafa

Kamel Mourad who is a leader, chairman of one

of the leading parties of the Opposition in Egypt.­ 10 ­

Mr. KamelMourad > It is a pleasure to meet with you here and

to speak to you as a politician veryfrankly­ Maybe we could find a way to make normalizationand for peace to develop much more quickly than it iso Iwill speak to you very frankly­ I do not represent theEgyptian Government. I represent my party, the Labour Partyof Egypt, the Opposition party.

We started peace between Egypt and Israel but it isnot enough because the arer is not Egypt and Israel, thearea is so big, over twenty countries, full of natural ,T

resources, full of capital, surplus, full of people who canwork and produce. So I'm sure that we, the parliamentarians,must try to find a practical way that we can help our govern­ments to obtain peace. It is difficult, I agree with you,

but it is possible. Everything at the beginning is difficultbut we have to try and try, very sincerely, on both sides" /

When Sadat said that he would visit the Knesset, I.

was astonished, honestly. Iom a very liberal man, and veryindependent in my way of thinking but he made it, and I came

here with him. I really on my first visit was feeling bitter,1011 be very frank, feeling bitter, because four wars, as my

colleague said, thirty years of hatred. and fighting­ I myselfserved in two of those wars, in 19^8 and 1956­ But when we ,

came here and shook hands with the people and started to r

become acquainted very easily and much quicker than 1 ;

imagined and the ice was broken, and that we were speakingpeople­to­people, because we are all from Adam and Eve anyhow.

I'm sure that the people of Israel want peace. I am ­

a professional politician and I can understand the people infront of you. I met some of them, Israeli professionals here

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last time in 19?? and I found that they really want peace,even more eager for peace than we are, to be very frank withyou. But how can we make it? There are Arab countries boy­cotting both Israel and Egypt now. So actually we made thefirst step but we must go much further than this.

Normalization, I would say, between Egypt and Israel,the Governmeni Is sincere and eager to make real normaliza­*ion, in all domains. I­ as a liberal man, and my party,

have no objection to normalization but we would like you alsoto meet us in the middle of the way­ Also, you have to lookfor the autonomy for the Arabs here, on the West Bank and Gaza,

because what is autonomy? The right to have police, have

local legislation­ Itcs not much, from my point of view­

I know that Premier Begin and. his party are not willingto do that autonomy but if we would get parties and if we

would look in a practical way3 weod find. that this autonomy

could be obtained­ It's not something impossible­ We must

grease the gears, the gears are rusty, since they are from

30 years ago, grease the gears between the Republic of Israeland the Arab countries around. it­ We must work very sincerelyfor that, all of us, from all parties, Egypt and Israel­ You

are intelligent and hard­working people, so are we intelligentand hardworking people, and a lot of resources in this area,natural and financial, we have to move, to change these re_sources to development and prosperity and settle a real com­

prehensive Peace in this area­ I'm not going into detailsbut maybe in the coming days we can go into details in itemafter item, but it all depends on sincerity and will, how

to make Peace, in this important area of the world, theMiddle Easts in which we both live, the two pioneers, so we

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must find a way. I think it is possible that we can findthis way, Thank you. (applause)

Mr.­ M.' L. Meron:'''" .

Mr. Speaker, dear colleagues from Egypt. Before goinginto the point I would like to raise this morning, I ,would

like to say to my good friends, we are already good friends,Mr. Mourad from the Liberal Party,I am a member of theLiberal Party too, I listened very carefully to the inspiringwords you said, but greasing the machines of peace, let us:;

not forget that in this area, the area in which we live,peace is a very delicate matter, a matter which anytimeit can break, and if we are talking about peace, we arelooking around at what is happening in the vicinity, in ourneighborhood, in Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Iran, Libya and Chad

and in stricken Lebanon, then I think we, people of Egyptand of Israel, can be very proud of the achievements we

have gathered during the last three years­ The peace, whichas has been rightly said, will be a lasting peace and thereshould be and. will be no more waro

But when we are talking about peace, we always hearand also from you, dear colleagues from Egypt, the good

advice that we should sit down and talk with the PLO,

Palestine organization, they call themselves a liberationorganization, but in this matter I think I have a differentway of calling them­ I would not call them a real liberationorganization. I think the way they are dealing with theirobjectives are not liberation but elimination of the Stateof Israel. And when you call upon us, and we see this in

newspapers from Egypt, we hear fhis from the Parliament inEgypt, that we should sit down with them and start talking­

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I ask you, would you sit down with somebody who has plannedin advance the elimination of our country? How can you giveus advice, and we hear this, and I kftow that you are givingthis advice because you want peace and you believe in it,but how could you advise us to sit down with an organizationwhich in its charter has stated that our State should be no

more, and they will do it in any way, they will be readyto accept half of Israel, at the outset, but they plannedto exterminate our State at a later stage­

Very often we are told well, these people, thisorganization represents the Palestinians­ And I can onlytell you that in my opinion these people do not representthe Palestinian people because the Palestinian people aretoday under stress. They are not free to choose­ it isby terror that the Palestinians are today going so­calledbehind this organization, but they really don't want them,and they don't have a free hand and voice in that­

I remember, everybody talked about President Sadatcoming here in 1977­ at that time I remember he invited tothe King David Hotel thirty or more notables for a dis_cussion. Only half turned up. The other half was afraidto come. They had been warned by a terror organizationcalled the PLO ­ you should not talk to Sadat. Out of those18­19 notables who came to the King David, several of them

are no more­ They were killed­ Others suffered­ eitherin their business orfproperty­ So I think it reminds me a

little bit of the ways in the 1930s, a certain fascistorganization in Germany, thejljealt the same way with theGemnan people, and suddenly all the German people voted for

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the Nazis, for the man called Hitler, but it was not out oftheir free will, it was forced. upon them­

And in these days you can see, there is another verygood example. Why go back to history? We have it on ourdoorstep these days, on your doorsteps, in Libya­ Everyother day or so we hear that some Libyan opposition leaderhas been killed in Europe . How come? Because he has thecourage to say something which is not pleasant to the earsof this man, this dictator called Kaddaffi­ He is ruling,Kaddaffi can say, all the Libyans are behind me, but theyare not. They have no free voice. They cannot come and

discuss. We are glad that in your delegation there aremembers of the opposition here, they can say what they want,and we are willing to listen because we came here to disdussnot only the momentum, not only that we want this to 'continue, not only that we want peace, but we want to findthe way to go to it, to come to itD to achieve it, and inorder to achieve it we want to see with whom we are goingto sit in the near future, with whom we are going to discussit. I was ­told by a statesman lately who said that the PLO

has many streams of ideas, there are moderates and extremists,so don't talk with the extremists, invite the moderates tothe discussion. You will find that they want to listen to ­

you. I can tell you that I'm afraid for those moderates. ifwe invite them here, or in Geneva, or anywhere, that when

they come home they will be no more because they will be

sacrificing their property and their lives if they will sit,against the will of some of the extremists in this PLO organi­zation­.

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The last point I would like to make is, very oftenwe are told, well what the PLO has written inkts charter,donBt take it so seriously, it is for home consumption, you

know sometimes people speak in politics things they don'tmean­ So don't take this too seriously­

My dear colleagues from Egypt­ We, the Jewish People,must take very seriously every word that is being writtenbecause history repeats itself all the time. In 1932/33,a man, at that time they called him Mister Hitler, just asthey call Arafat today Mister Arafat, but they won0t be

calling him all the time this name Mister, they call him

just Arafat, This Hitler wrote a book called Me in Kampf

and this Me in Kampf said, it planned the extermination ofthe Jewish People, it planned. the extermination of thegypsies, it planned the occupation of the Lebensraum,what they called "living space" for the German people inthe East and the West and the colonial empire of Africa­I don't know if Egypt was in it but Palestine certainlywas in it­ I can tell you ­ he meant it­ But it that timethere were very good people in England and France andAmerica who said don0t take him seriously, itos only forhome consumption.

So the whole world paid for it, the Jewish PeoplePaid dearly for this­ I can only tell you and I would likevery much to hear your advice, and I know it will come fromyour hearts, how can we deal with this point? How shouldwe behave? Should we take all the risks? Or should we

be, as students of history, learn the lesson and as PresidentSadat said and promised us security, see that our childrenand grandchildren live securely in peace with all the peoplehere forever and ever. And I would. be very much obliged if

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you would comment on this short comment of mine. Thank you#

Dr. Abdallah; I don't want to monopolize the debate on theEgyptian side so 1*11 keep my comments until

the end but now as we are anti­discrimination I will givethe floor "to our charming colleague,.Dr.­ Jerkhunda Hassan Youssef!

jTryYouRRPf 8 Thank you Mr. Chairman, Mr. Speaker,. dearcolleagues. Allow to comment and respond to

Mr. Arens8 statement indicating that the real solution ofthe Palestinian problem would result in the complete '

elimination of the State of Israel. Allow me also to referto the Camp David agreement. Mr. Arens. statement was true,until we signed the peace treaty, until we signed the Camp

David agreement. Maybe the main achievement of the Camp

David agreement is not what is written or identified there .:

but the main achievement is the change inour attitudes and

when I say "our" I mean Israel and. Egypt. We changed attitudesand we are using and following the new method which is sittingaround the table and discussing and negotiating. Since we

signed that agreement, we really and truthfully changedour attitude, and we are expecting and. we believe thatIsrael and the Israeli people have also changed attitudes.And let us make the most of this. Let us benefit from thischange ff attitudes by reaching the results which we all /f

hope for and this would be a practical invitation for therest of the Parties concerned to join the peace negotiations.

However, I would like to point out that the issue ofthe Palestinian problem is not that easy, although it is 50#

of solving the problem, as I define it, also the Camp David

agreement and the peace treaties and the negotiations for it­ 17 ­

identified that problem and put us on'the first setp of itwhich is the full autonomy for the Palestinians­ Then from

there it will be difficult. It might need a second Camp

David agreement to solve the issues­ It's not that easy.We expect that­ we know that, and we are ready for it, and

I think we both should give the example for the rest ofthe countries, the rest of the nations aronnd us, to make

use of the changed attitude as a result of Camp David­Thank you­ )applause)

Mr* Savidors .,* Mr­ Speaker­ Mr­ Chairman, Your Excellency,the Ambassador, distinguished colleagues of

the two Parliaments­ In the wake of the remarks made by

the members of the Knesset and some of our distinguishedcolleagues of the Egyptian Parliamentary Assembly, I would

like to point out (a) that the main problem is to remove

suspicion and fear­ If we remove suspicion and fear, theissue which is actually the heart of the problem that we

are discussing will be much easier to solve­

You will understand that suspicion and fear are a

result of our history, as well as a result of a conflictwhich has prevailed for the last thirty years prior to ouragreement­ Hov can one9 how can one restore confidencebetween these peoples in the area? First of all" as a man

who served in Egypt during World War II and has a profoundrespect for the Egyptian people" for their civilization,seven millenia old, their tolerance and also the good natureof the Egyptians whom I met during my service, I can saythat during our dialogues, whether it is on a parliamentarylevel or on a government level or a level between citizens

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and citizens, we can bring much more ideas into what I wouldsay the central point that we are discussingo

You will agree with me that the autonomy issue aspresented by the Israeli Government is the only solutinnand is the only bridge to bring confidence about and thatconfidence should replace suspicion and fear­ After all,the Israeli Government is prepared to confer upon the in­habitants of the areas that we are discussing all theprivileges and rights of self­rule, short of two, which is .

defense and foreign affairs­

If we. can move and get this autonomy into operationand the people rescind and disavow in a charter which­isactually aiming at the destruction of Israel. If we canin the bilateral relations with Egypt move much more furtherand deeper into our relationship as far as even strategiccooperation, suspicion will be removed and confidence willbe installed­

After five years of living together in good neighbor­liness, in good cooperation, having rescinded the charter,and disavowed it. I think that we can move forward to much

I would say further, tangible solutions to the problem whichis actually preoccupying our minds. ;/

I am not saying that Israel, which has alreadymanifested a lot of magnanimity and generosity , should notgo any further. Maybe we should at a certain stage say ok,we take upon ourselves to solve the problem of 350,000refugees who are still living in camps, to rehabilitatethem, to establish them, we should be perhaps more open toreuniting families, but then the Arab world should look upon

the problem not only from a narrow point of view of the Arab­ 19 ­

interests but understand our problem­ If you give self­determination and if the major idea is to bring back thereturn is the major idea, the focal pdnt, you may bring abouta population explosion in this area and this per se is a

tangible danger to our very existence 0 If you bring ininto this area of 5­200 square kilometers another one millionor one and a half million refugees, do you imagine what isgoing to happen? Let alone terrorist activities and an

aggressor base by a superpower. So our fears and. suspicionsare justified.

If you encourage autonomy and we have this transitionalperiod and at the same time you move with more dynamism inour cooperation and in normalization process between ourcountries and a cooperation in the entire area, and I'm notgoing to spell it out" in which way it may be expressed and

donep I think that after five years of autonomy and cooperationwe will serve as an example and we will give encouragementto peaceful coexistence and good neighborMness and maybe

at a certain time you will find that the situation whichprevails on the German­French frontier" on the borders betweenFrance and Germany after 200 years of war will prevail inthis area. So let us move with the autonomy and not be, inmy opinion, so dogged in all the final solutions, let us seeit as a transitional period and give it content to such an

extent that it proves that diffidence, mistrust and fearare replaced by confidence between the peoples­ Thank you­

Dr. Adel Abd Ei­Hamid Ezz 8 Mr. Chairman, Mr­ Speaker,

Mr. Ambassador, colleagues. In thefirst place, I would like to indicate that not only PresidentSadat but in my own opinion most of the Egyptian people, or

­20 ­

the **** ma;jority of the Egyptian people and most of the Arabswhom I have met have great confidence in peace and believe inPeaCe " this is a fac*. I mean, we are not only following thepresident, but we are internally convinced that peace is forthe benefit hot only of the State of Israel but for all­ theArab countries. Reasons behind this fact is. if you try totalk as economists, what is the aim of any government all overthe world? Just to guarantee a good standard of living to

everybody. And if we think about all that we had, spentduring :the last 30 years, on wars and what we have lost, we

can think it over and say ­ if it would have been possible forall of us to concentrate all these efforts on economic develop­ment. it would have been Possible to do something for all thepeople in this area. That's why we believe in peace­

In the second Place, I would like to say that lastingPeace is, in my own opinion, the utmost security to Israel, toEgypt. and to every Arab country­ So in this case if we have

confidence. we can get rid of an anxiety. fear, suspiciona"* everything, But the problem is, how can we all have con­fidence in each other. confidence in the future­ how can we י

forge the Past and look forward to the future? This is the­ ­.. ^­ Prdbl^..^Qh^a1^a^e to+hi^k over .a^d to .discuss thorough­

1y. .. ­­­ \­^­^' י .>o­U­.1;­/U ;­

One of our colleagues has now talked about the PLO andabout the Palestiniahs who are now living on the West Bank.

Gaza, and so on, and I can frankly say. give these people realself­autonomy, give them the chance to decide. and. you will see

~ ­­­ whether they are Allowing this way or not, in spite of the factthat I must say and stress on this fact that this is only a

statement. A statement could be true and could be false. But

I would like to say ok. we don't want to discuss this mattex­21 ­

and will try to enlarge the number of problems with which we

are dealing. But I would like to say ok, you have confidencein the people who are living here , in Gaza, on the West Bank,

please give them the real self ­autonomy, give them the chanceto decide and to choose the right way to live happily in thisarea, to live in peace with you.

I will say, ladies and genelemen, at the end of thisdiscussion I would like to say that I do completely agree withour colleague who really said that normalization is not somethingwhich should happen only between two governments, but it is feltnormalization would be achieved once the people come from Egyptto Israel and go from Israel to Egypt and exchange views and.

try to think of the future and I do believe if we follow allwhat has been indicated. in the peace treaty and in Camp DavidI am quite sure that we could achieve somethings given that we

are ready to forget everything about the past and looking forwardfor a good future for all the States in this area. Thank you­

Abba Eban 8 Mr. Speaker, I would like to associate the Labour

Alignment with the welcome that we extend to ouri'tguests. Israeli hospitality is closely linked with the notion

of exhaustion and we have put you to work very early. I would

hope that in addition to these dialogues ­ you will have thechance to see something beyond our meeting room,, something ofthe society that is being established and. of the people who areestablishing it. You must have already felt something of theemotion with which we greet you heree This is an opportunityfor frank dialogue and it is also a symbol.

I would like to present to you a specific point o# view­We Israelis are not distinguished by a spontaneous tendency to

­22 ­

agree with each other about everything and it would be, I. think,intellectually incongruous if you were not to receive some im_

pression not only of the things which unite us but also some ofthe diversity which characterizes our debate­ It seems to me

that we have three things to do here 8 the first is to secure adeeper international understanding of the significance of theEgyptian­Israeli treaty? the second is to give substance andreality to that treaty. Governments are not the only actors inthe modern international system and our formal relationshipwould be shallow and superficial if it were not enriched by

contact between our peoples at every level of experience­ " And

our third task is to think about how to expand the peace process,beyond the Israeli­Egyptian context, until it becomes a processembracing the Middle East as a whole­

001016 I say a few words from my party's pointof view on

each of these themes­ to secure greater understanding of theEgyptian­Israeli achievement. There is a very curious sceptidismin many parts of Europe and America about the real significanceof what we have achieved. Nothing as momentous as this hashappened in the life of this generation­ There have been veryfew victories for conciliation that can compare with the sudden

change in the Egyptian­Israeli relations between three decadesof hostility erupting into war and a peace treaty establishinga totally new order of relations­ One would have to think 1

about the American opening to China. one would have to thinkon a smaller scale of the Zimbabwe­Rhodesia settlement, butyou can count on the fingers of one hand victories for conciliationsimilar to that which we have achieved­

There is a tendency to under­estimate it by pointing outthat it is not yet a comprehensive peace settlement­ But a

comprehensive Peace settlement is a result of separate peace­23 ­

­­ttlements. Evolutionary. gradualist. ­t­ps toward­ pea­­merge evevtvsUy into a comprehensive settlement. You haveto 1­­gin somewhere before you being somewhere else and lfwe had *­ ­­gin ­™­**ere before beginning somewhere else."*­re better to begin than in Egypt. the central crossroad­*rough which all the currents ­f Arab history, politics and

culturecmvsrge . The *­st leading. the most decisive elementin *he diplomacy of the Middle East over the past thirty years.^eretore, w­ must reject the tendency to say only Israel and

Egypt. What do you mean 'only. Israel and Egypt? Two peoples"hose ­"counters 1" history have been momentous for the destiny"f mankl"d and the tw0 P"Pl" "hose relationship in the past30 years have been decisive both in war and in peace. In othe1

words, a lead had to be *­.­en ­­­"here. and this was the correctway to take it.

0"r ­­cond task to which reference has been mad­ is:togive substance and reality to our treaty. My colleagues and Ihave had the opportunity to have discussions with the l­aderscf the "aticnal D­"­<­ratic *arty and we're very glad to ext­ndthat to ­ deader Parliamentary context. But in all of our6"00""*­s we ­*Pr­­­­d the need to go beyond the document intothe creation of new human realities. to multiply ­ur contactsat ­very level, and ­"hough I think Israelis understand thePsychological *actors which make this ­volution difficult forma"y Egyptians' "­ cught not to be satisfied with the pr­sentPa­­ or the ?"­­nt 1'1^"­"y of normalisation and w­ ought to

­ ™s ­counter en­ ­f the landmarks in putting the processon a coxpleUly new ^amism, a completely new scop­ and toenlarge it into every field.

24 ­

The other question is how we take the peace processfurther" Let me then say what the Labour Alignment policy is.First of all, we are fully behind the Camp David agreements 0

Those agreements are a national commitment­ They were supportedin this House, across the frontiers that normally divide ourparties, each from the other. We will carry them out meticulously,not only because we feel ourselves constitutionally­bound bythem, but also because we think that this was an audacious andconstructive step into a better future­

We believe that there should be a continuation. of theleading Egyptian role in the peace process­ We do not thinkthat the imaginative statesmanship with which Anwar Sadatlaunched the peace process can now be dispensed with­ Itcannot be dispensed with­ In the life of our generation,there is nothing comparable to the intellectual courage,innovation and audacity with which your leader separated you

and your country from all the literature and rhetoric ofhostility and placed you in a completely new atmosphere, ina completely new context. It is the kind of innovation and

audacity which we still do not find anywhere else in thegallery of Arab leaders and we would hope that the example

and the beneficial contagion of Anwar Sadat0 s role will be,

maintained. So this is our eeoond point ­ that there is acentral Egyptian role, not only within the normalizationcontext but also in the effort to find ways of expanding thepeace process­

­25 ­

Beyond the peace process, there are more than one

dontrine in Israel. As I said, it would be intellectuallyabsurd if you were not to hear the range of choices available.1here is a view that we should maintain the unity structureof the land of Israel and that within this structure, betweenthe river and the sea, we should endeavor to adjust relationsbetween ourselves and the Palestinian Arabs by a system offull autonomy, and there are some who hope that it might bethe total solution of the problem­

This is a doctrine which has its roots deep in ournation's historic memory and recollection" Those who shareit and those who do not share it should not underestimatethe depth of the roots from which it springs­

There is another option which we would offer beyond

the stage of autonomy, and here I speak for the Labour Alignment.According to this vision of the Middle East, we should try toavoid a permanent Israeli jurisdiction over the million and a

quarter Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. But we would have toexpress this principle in conditions compatible with Israelisecurity, and this means that we would envisage as the finalend of this process a neighbor on our east extending acrossParts of the West Bank and Jordan in which more than two­and­­a­half million Palestinian Arabs would find. their identity underan Arab flag, in close association and neighborhood with us.But if this is to be achieved, under the compelling conditionsof our basic security, then there have to be defensible boundariesfor Israel. Defensible boundaries have to be different from those

­26 ­

which caused so many explosions and eruptions in 19^­9 andin 1956 and in 1967 and in 1973­ They have to be hegotiated.They have to take account of that pathos of vulnerabilitywhich is the central reality of Israeli life.

.. )

Another condition is that if a vacuum is created by

any form of territorial concession, we have a right to know

how that vacuum is going to be filled­ It must not be filledby war, by belligerency, by terrorism and therefore we do: have

a legitimate interest 3n knowing who our neighbor is going tote and who our neighbor is not going to be. And our neighboris not going to be an organization for whom what they callthe "liquidation of Israel" is their central aim.

In discussion of the developments within the PLO, Idraw attention to the phraseology that they used in Damascus

only a few weeks ago ­ "the liquidation of the Zionist entity."My friends, the word liquidation has a meaning outside itslexicographic context. Liquidation has associations in ourvery recent history. In other words, there are certain conditionsthat have to be fulfilled if our own party's vision is to ,havereality. One of them is a boundary negotiation, a securityarrangement, the creation of a system different from that ­whichexisted before 1967. It would be avoidance of what we wouldregard. as the blasphemous division of Jerusalem. It mustremain united­ It is and will be our capital forever. But

within all these reservations, there is room, as I said, fora new structure,; a new configuration which would enable us to .

­27 ­

avoid imposing our rule on an unwilling Arab people­

It's very unlikely that this matter can be decided inthis room, It has to be decided within our own democraticprocess­ In 0*her words­ between these options the Israelidemocracy will have to make its voice heard but all of us.I think, agree in this room that it is very unlikely that we

will ever achieve a Permanent settlement by drastic transitionfrom total deadlock to total peace­ There has to be an inter­mediate stage­ I don't know of any conditions in recentdiplomatic history in which so sharp a change has taken place­

We would not have reached a peace treaty with Egyptbut for the stages of disengagement and interim settlement,beginning in 1974 and culminating in the signature of theEgyptian­Israeli treaty­

Therefore for the moment our business is how to givereality to the concept of full autonomy and here I would liket0 sav something that has not been said. Perhaps understandably.on the Egyptian side. To give reality *he reality of the Camp

David Agreement on on full autonomy does not simply requireaPPeals to the Israeli People. although these appeals are ofcourse natural from your side. Nothing can move unless thereis a substantial modification of the policy, the rhetoric. and

the ideology of other Arab states, In other words. the key isthat somebody else in the Arab world should be encouraged tofollow the course of Anwar Sadat. In other words, the Egyptian­1sraeli treaty is not only significant for what it does. it also

­28 ­

has exemplary effects­ Now, what did Anwar Sadat prove? He

proved that once Israelis see a concrete and credible prospectof peace" they are capable of such accommodations and flexibi­lities that none of ,them would have themselves have imaginedbefore­ I don't want to give the impression that the situationon our Eastern sector is equivalent to that in Sinai­ It was

possible there to have the neat formula of a return to aprevious international boundary. Such a formula is notfeasible here. There isn't a previous international boundary­There has never been a permanent boundary between Israel and

any of its eastern neighbors­ It is much more complex, bothphysically and emotionally­ but nevertheless I'm certain thatthe same psychological result would happen if other Arab

governments­ if Syria, if Jordan, if the Palestinians here,were to undergo that dramatic process of innovation and

originality that Anwar Sadat underwent, then one or other ofthese options would become feasible.

.; י.

I must say I feel a sense of frustration when we ­

discuss our Israeli options in Israel because the rest ofthe Arab world doesn't accept either of our options. Itdoesn't accept the option of our friends on the coalitionside, it doesn't accept the option which Iove briefly sketched,and my feeling is that the real roadblock is a certain degreeof intellectual conservatism in the rest of the Arab world* a

reluctance to follow the Egyptian lead­ Much more than thereluctance to follow­ A very ill­considered attack upon the

­29 ­

Egyptian initiative, although the Egyptian initiative enabledEgypt to recover its interests, and a similar attitude fromthe rest of the Arab world would be much more fruitful thanthe conservative maintenance of the old positions 0

Briefly then, the Arab world outside Egypt faces two

possible approaches? one is what I call the Anwar Sadatapproach, namely, if you want something from Israel, thebest way to try to get it is by peace, by negotiation, by

­diplomacy­ The other approach is the approach by the rejection­ist States and of the PLO, namely to maintain the PalestineCovenant, terrorism, boycott, hostility, condemnatory reso­lutions. All one can say is that that approach has notbrought any value at all to anybody­

It may be that in the Middle East there is a thirdelement­ I would include perhaps Saudi Arabia and Jordan,those who are not yet courageous enough to make peace butwho are prudent enough not to make war­ And within thisideological pluralism, we ought to try to work together, towork together to produce the sort of ideological and intellectualtransformation with which Anwar Sadat illuminated the life ofour generation­ Thank you­ )applause)

Dr­ Abdallahs In reality, to have to take the floor, afterMr­ Abba Eban, with all his talent and ex­

man

perience as the famous^of Israel on the international scenefor years and years, so I will keep my fingers crossed for

my colleague, Mr. Bassili Guirguis when he now has to take the floor.

­30 ­

Mr' Bassili C"irgm8 . Mr. Speaker. our chairman, his excellency,our ambassador, Iod like to begin talking

in Arabic to say As Salaam Aleikum and it is Shalom Aleichem.This means that we believe in peace and we are here todayin the atmosphere of peace which we have both gained by Camp

David and the peace treaty­

What astonished me that I hear that it is fear andsuspicion. Fear and suspicion equals destruction. And we

must avoid going through peace and suspicion. You see .ve

have a common saying, one of our poets has said ­. )Arabic)People, because they are afraid of poverty, they are inpoverty. The moment we begin to. be suspicious or to be afraid,this means that we have cut the way to peace. We must forget.There is no fear­ Why do we fear? Years of war , of terriblebad. relations, but now, I still hear the words of our Presidentwhen he was diking in the Assembly. saying that I will go tothe end of the world, running up a hill. We say that. somePeople, especially of Upper Egypt. where there is blood betweentwo families, those who are accused. he takes his burial shroudin his hands and goes to his enemy's house. That is what ourPresident has done. He came and it was the Will of G­d thatwe both believed that we have a right. arrived to the con­stitutional law of Peace andjSur case it is the treaty, itis the Camp David treaty. We must not try to find somethingthat may take us out of what is already made.

As for the Palestinians, they have the right totalk, to negotiate, to come­ This is their work. This is

­31 ­

their nationality­ This is their right to live­ We can'tsay that we are representing them here or in the treaty orat Camp David. And what our President has done is just toprepare a way, to go through, to open the way, in front ofthem, for peace, and for a peaceful life­

Now we came and we are here and we are here representingall Egypt ­ We are no.t representing our government ­ We arerepresenting the people of Egypt­ So we are with you, asrepresentatives for Israel­ Why the normalization, you say,is not going on in its right way. There is something, I'm

not going to talk plainly or open that question nowo You

know, it is your government that doesn't respect the judicialauthorities­ We have a covenant here called Der Sultan whichwas taken by force from us and given to the Abyssinians, thenwe filed a suit in your high court here, not injbur courts.Then a judgment was given and it was given in 1970 and up tonow the court and we the Copts are struggling for the executionof this judgment­ I assure you this is not the first time.The first time was with King Hussein, it was taken from usand given to those people and I was a member of the delegateswho came here to arrange, to put an end to that question,and we have it back­

That first time we said none would go from Egypt and

you know we live in Egypt, Copts and Muslims, there is no

difference between us, we are all one. We preventing thepeople from coming to Jerusalem on pilgimage from Istan.)?(

32 ­

In three days. it was only three days for the feast day,we came back, and we came ­6.000 in three days. If normali­zation was really well done from your own side, we would

have come not less than 20,000 and I guarantee that it willbe done the moment you execute your judgment­ We are proudto say that there are judgments in Egypt, also there arejudges in Israel but the authorities must not stop executingthese judgments­ There are many things to be said, afterall I have said. especially after his excellency, Abba Eban.but it is not the moment to explain every point of what hehas said. I hope that we will meet each other for some daysand I hope that you, Mr. Speaker, will do your best inhelping in ou*­ rights, jBur­ laws­ we havea law that if aminister will not execute the judgment of the court, he

personally will be responsible personally to pay all in.. densities and he may be exposed to go to the correctionalcourt also. Thank you.

**of­ Rubinstein, Mr­ Chairman, Dr. Abdallah. Mr. Ambassador.

I would like to add my own words of mostProfound welcome and it gives me special pleasure to do thatbecause I belong to those Israelis who believed in a modus

vivendi, in a rapprochement, between Egypt and Israel for a'

long, long time, even before the dream became a reality. .

For many years, People thought that such views wereutopian, that such views were unrealistic­ But thanks to ­

the initiative of Resident Sadat and Prime Minister Begin.

­33 ­

this idea, this Utopian dream became a reality and we almosttake 1t *­or granted now­ That which was considered a missionimpossible has become routine, a fact.

So much has been said about the benefits, the virtuesof the Peace treaty between Egypt and Israel that I thinkone can hardly add a useful word and yet, with your permission,Mr. Chairman. I would like to point out two aspects of thishistoric turning Point which are not usually discussed­ One

relates to the Jewish past and one relates to the futuredevelopments.

I would like to speak about the origins of the Jewishsettlement of Palestine, about which many of our Egyptian .

Mends and colleagues do not know much, because this hasbeen clouded by years of enmity, by a tragic dispute betweenArab and Jew­ But in truth, the origin of the Jewish settle­ment in **168tine did not constitute, not even for a singiemoment, any clash with the Arab population. On the contrary,it was based on total, Perhaps naive, belief in a Mutual co_

existence and a cultural symbiosis between the two SemiticPeoples. Zionist literature. Jewish writing, Jewish thinkingin Palestine is replete with such hankering, clamouring, fora cultural dialogue between Arab and Jew, between the Hebrew­

speaking andthe Arabic­speaking­ It is really incredible when

you look back at that Period, where the Jewish settlers took '

. , ArabArab names, Arab dress. wore/headgear, sung the glories of thelocal Palestinian Arabs, believed in a close union between the

­34 ­

Palestinian Arabs whom they regarded as the descendants ofthe true Jews of Palestine, many of them. including Ben Gurion.believed that­ And there is every hope that the Jewish settle­ment of Palestine is a return to the East. to the common

Semitic Middle Eastern culture­ All this has gone by theriver.All this is gone with the wind p because of this tragicconflict between Arab and Jew­

In order to demonstrate how sincere, how deep thissantiment was. one has to look at one of the interviews givenby the head of the Zionist Organization in 1914 who gave an

interview to an Egyptian newspaper called El Mukaten(?) which

doesn't exist anymore, and says that the Jews have come backto­Palestine in order to create, with the Arabs, a new

Palestinian/culture, things which now sound so anachronistic,so dreamy, and yet at the time this was the reality­ 0ne

of the hopes of People like me is that this turning­pointas a result of the initiative of the President of Egypt andthe Prime Minister of Israel will gradually bring about a

renaissance of this original sentiment­

I think it is important for the members of the Egyptiandelegation to understand this craving that exists side­by­sidewith the need to acquire western technology, western method

of work in an industrial society­ I think that in this respect,belonging to an ancient culture and craving for modern techno­logy and westernized economy, Egypt and Israel share the same

dilemma, and this is another link which should bind us together.

­35 ­

The second point I would like to make relates to thefuture or perhaps not to the future but to a ilose and probabledanger in this area­ All the differences of view between theArab States and Israel turn to insignificance , become marginaland pusillanimous in comparison with the threat to the whole ofthe Middle East by a foreign brutal power which plans and wantsto dominate all our countries put together. And when you thinkabout this outside danger which President Sadat doesn't failto point out day in and day out, all the differences withregard to the Palestinian problem, the West Bank, to mutualcoexistence, should pale into insignificance because, afterall, friends andcolleagues, we must remember that before theSoviets took over Eastern Europe and the Balkan States, therewere also marginal differences like that between the Luthuaniansand the Estonians, the Rumanians and. the Hungarians , the Poles,border disputes, as bitter as our disputes. Nothing remainsofthis dispute now, when everything has been incorporatedinto the Soviet domain.

I think it is your task and duty to impress Arab rep­resentatives from other countries, from other communities, theneed to see our dispute in perspective­ Not to deny it, I,for one, do not want to deny the validity of the Palestinianproblem, but to see it in perspective. All our countries arebeing threatened, all our countries can become another Afghanis­­tan, and I think this message should be made clear to the Arab

States, to Arab delegations that you meet in Cairo and tflsewhere.

­36 ­

Finally I would like to say a word about normalization.For us, friends and colleagues, normalization is everything.It is the crux of the matter, it is the heart and soul ofthe Camp David. accords­ Israel has moved from total de­pendence, from total self­sufficiency in oil to total depen­dency and the great majority of the Knesset members and peoplevoted for it because we want peace that much­ But everythingdepends on normalization­ Maybe you don't realize how deepthis thing goes.

When we got up this morning and read inour morningnewspapers that the participation of Israeli publishers, inthe Cairo book fair has been suddenly rescinded­ this. is a

blow against normalization, against peace­ You must realizethat and bring this message back to your friends in Egypt.On the other hand, every tourist who comes back from Egypt­and tells about the generosity, the kind­hearted hospitalitythat he. meets everywhere, wherever he goes, from Upper Egyptto Cairo, from the Nile Valley to Alexandria, from the hotelto the bazaar to the shops in the streets ­ everysuch im­

pression is a blow for normalization and a blow for peace.And I think it is our duty not as representatives of govern­ments, but £s Members of Parliament, to do everything to ,

encourage this feeling, this sentiment, that peace is a reality.Thank you. (applause)

Dr. Abdaliajn We have just been informed about it by Mr. Debek

at the airport and it could be a matter oftechnicality because of ratification of some agreement orsomething like this. It is a minor issue and it cannot be

measured or compared in any way with our presence here or even­37 ­

with what you said, you are right when you said how yourpeople are received by the average man in Egypt, by theman in the street, and I'm not talking about your officialvisitor, I'm talking about an Israeli who comes to Cairoor Alexandria, he is always welcome by everyone. There issome matter of practicality which if we stop at every matterand say why, in fact we will give a blow against normalizationby ourselves and by our own hands­ So I hope that both ways

have to understand that in two, three years time, such problemswill never exist­ Mr"Khorachi,our colleague from the ShuraCouncil­Mi Khorapofit (speaks in French and Arabic)(translated into Hebrew(

פר>מנ0ר>ז1י~בכנ0תי>781י1"­20 משלחת ביקורשא3י:.מצינורי.. :כד ר..נאו,.ם באמצע המשימה. עלי הוטלה פשוט אני התירגום, לפני הערההמשימה. עלי שהוטלה נקודה מאותה אלא אותו להביא אוכל לא הראשון החלק שאת

הנואם: דבריוהויכוחזזי'­י­םש­ילבראיר­ שהביקור ספק איו מתכתבים, ואגו מישראל ידידים לנו

ושיתוף אינטגרציה שתהיה כדי התחומים, ובכל רופאים של נוספים ביקורים בעקבותיוהמדינות­ 2 ביו פעולה

השני. הצד ומבחינת מבחינתנו דו­סיטרי הוא הנירמולבדרך גדולים צעדים צועדים ואנו קמפ­דיוויד, לרוח בהמשך שצעדנו סבור אני

הנירמול. בדרך והיעילה הטובה הדרך ליטול עלינו היו"ר: שאמר כפי ­ הנירמולבאזור העמים שכל לעז אבו ד"ר שאמר מה על אחזור אש"ף, לנושא להתיחם ברצוני

של לטובתה לכולם­ מועיל השלום בגלוי: לדבר עלינו מצרים. רק ולא בשלום רוציםמצרים, עם רק לא שלום לה שיהיה מתועלתה זה; בנושא ומופת דוגמה לתת עליה ישראלהמגעים אחרי ועוקבות במרחב ערביות מדינות 20 קיימות ערב. מדינות כל עם אלאלאותם שיעודד כדי העמים, כל את שיעודד חדש, מובן לתת עלינו ישראלית המצרית

לא מובנו. את לשלום לתת עליו צד וכל עדיף הוא שהשלום להוכיח אלינו, להצטרףהטרור סוגי כל את מגנים אנו זה, במצב שאנו לומר, ברצוני אבל בדברי אאריך

שונה הוא השלום בעת והדיבור השלום שאת לקבוע עלינו אבל והאנטישמיות הגזענותשלום. לא בעת מדיבר

שנוכל כדי האוטונומיה, על ומתן במשא הצעדים להרחבת או להגשמה שנעשה מקווה אניממנו. להנות האזור מדינות ולכל לשלום לאפשר

תודה.­ 39 ­

Mr"A' Sharir : (Israel) This is a special occasion for usto welcome the Egyptian delegation. here in

Jerusalem. Dr. Abdallah and I met Personally met in EastBerlin and at that time we discussed the forthcoming .visitof your delegation and therefore for me Dr. Abdeliah ; . it isa special pleasure to welcome you here and I hope that you

and your colleagues will have a very Pleasant stay hereand you will come back as soon as possible, to visit usfor a­longer stay and we of course on our side will be Veryhappy to reciprocate in the very near future.

J mentioned Dr­ Abdallah's and my visit in East Berlin,<>f­all places. We saw a divided city. We saw a city with awall between it and therefore maybe for us who are fortifiedwith soldiers. a former experience. (not clear. not speakinginto microphone) can understand what it means for a City tobe divided and what a united city means" a united Jerusalem.

It is natural for us. the Egyptian people and theIsraeli People. the two most anxious peoples in this partof ­the world to be the first ones to reconciliate and to ;

make Peace. We in fact owe you a special debt. You probablyare aware of the " ^ aliya> immigration. The first aliyacame from Egypt. It's true. that was some thousands of yearsago but the ^rst Israelis who came here came from Egypt amtherefore we owe. you a special thanks for this. (laughter)

^ace came thirty years too late but there is no reasonwhy we should nota­lerate now the process of Peace. There'sno reason why our two Peoples should not embark on a much faster

­ 39. ­

pace than we have in past few years, since President Sadatvisited here. Indeed it takes more courage to make peac"than to wage war. I believe. and I am very optimistic­ thatwe are embarked on a non­return way. There is no way to go

back to the previous condition and President Sadat words>

no more war­ no more bloodshed, are indeed a reality thatnow we all have to face. I believe that if we can divorceourselves from the Palestinian question and concentrate on

the relationship between our two countries,, I believe thatwe can later on even solve this problem because the PLO

State is not only a threat to Israel" it is a threat to allthe countries and peoples of the Middle East­ As you well

governingunderstood p during the 19 years of /\.j Judea , Samaria and

the Gaza Strip, when you could have established a PLO State,had you so desired, and a PLO State is a threat to all ofus, like having another Cuba in the midst of us­

We have to learn from the past, for the future, butalso to draw a line and to see how we can in a much closerand rapid relationship build a future for the people ofthe Middle East. Now I would like to say something thatmaybe right now would be considered too naive­ We visitedEurope . . ­ and I, and. we saw what the Europeans only in 40

years, after such a bloody war that raged in Europe, aftersuch deep animosity and hatred between the European peoples,and I daresay there is no hatred. and no animosity betweenthe Israelis and the Arab people­

­40 ­

A common market in the Middle East is a reality, it's nota dream, and a Middle East Parliament is a reality, not a

dream because if the Europeans ­. only 40 years ago theywould not talk, so let's learn from Europe because we have

here better conditions because of the special relationshipbetween the People here and not the animosity dnd hatredthat existed in Europe­ Lets learn from them, let's notspeak about borders, division, but about unity. Let's speakabout how the two people can live together, the Jews and therabs because I believe that G­d has thrown us here and here

we have to build a future for all of us­ Thank you­ )applause)

Mr. Mahmoud AbaEl­Fattah Abou Sehll!, Mr­ Chairman, dear colleagues.before we came here to Israel and believe me

that we have a good impression and I can tell you that I don'tfeel that I am in Israel, I feel that I am in Egypt (laughter),your hospitality, and the good atmosphere which you have pre_pared for us and I can tell you something of my experienceswhich happened to me in Europe­ I remember when I was inSwitzerland in 197^ and I can tell you that I have since.this date many Israeli friends. I told them at that timethat the day of Peace between Egypt and. Israel, and betweenArab and Israeli, would come­ Theydid­. not believe me­ Lateron, in Asia, in Belgium, also with many Israeli friends, I :

told them that peace will come between Egypt and Israel, and

they also did not believe me­ And now, we are in a real peaceand we hope that this peace will be the building­block. We

are only on the first step but how can we develop it?

0

41 ­

We can develop it when we touch the ­ ­ ­ point of theproblem. It is the Palestinian People problem and we mustface this problem. When you speak about terrorists, theyare not the Palestinian People, they represent themselvesand. they are interested not only against Israel but tflsoagainst themselves and against the Arab countries­ So to

achieve our step and to come to our objective and to avoidthe second generation of all these problems, we must findthe solution" just to accord to the Palestinian People theright to form a State and to live in peace and to live inpeace with all the States of the region and the first is Israel.

Believe me, my friends, that after what we have dis­cussed , I think that we can do something together and I hope

that good luck will accompany us and. thank you yery much.

Haim Bar Lev 8 Mr. Chairman, Mr­ Speaker, Your Excellency,Amb­ MQrtada, our guests, ladies and gentlemen­

The visit of the Egyptian parliamentary delegation to ourparliament is not only an additional step in the process ofthe normalization, but it's an excellent opportunity for usand for you to try to understand each other better, and totry to get closer­ We are free of the pressures, the tensionand the limitations of a political negotiation­ We do notnegotiate­ We express our views and we try to understandthe other partner better­

The Israeli Labour Movement has never believed thatthe solution of the Arab­Israeli conflict aan be solved on

the battlefield because Israel is strong enough to prevent

­42 ­

being destroyed and our Arab neighboring countries are bigenough and strong enough to Prevent asdmposed politicalsolution through wars. Therefore. for more than three decades,we in Labour believe­ that finally we must reach a stage where

we can discuss the problems as civilized people and findPolitical solutions­ Indeed, the first step in this directionhas been made by President Sadat .s initiative and by Priore

Minister Begin .s step and we have already broken the con­tinuing circle of wars. But now the question is how toenlarge this Phase and the next item on the agenda is theProblem of the Palestinians, of our Eastern border, of theWest Bank and Gaza, In this respect, I efelieve that no

extreme solution in this respect can bring about a peacewiththe three Partners ­ Israel, the Palestinians and Jordan.By extreme solution I mean a solution in which one of thepartners gets 100?£ of what he would like to have and theothers get 0# or close to 0$.

In the orbit you have three extreme solutions­ One Isthe full annexation of the West Bank and Gaza for Israel. Thisis an extreme solution. Our guests of course know that in t

Israel there are Parties and people who believe that thisshould be the solution. I don't believe that this can be a

solution. Another extreme solution is the full withdrawal .

of Israel to the Pre­Six Day War line. This is again an

extreme solution by which Israel will remain empty­handedand the other partner or partners will get 1OO?S of what

they would like to achieve. This also is a solution inwhich I don't believe. Israel is strong enough t^preventsuch .a solution.

­43 ­

The third solution of which some of you spoke here isa creation of the Palestinian State on the West Bank and inGaza­ This, to my mind, is also an extreme solution thatdoes not, have a chance­ It is extreme because first of allsuch a solution would not solve the Palestinian problem.Because on the West Bank and in Gaza you have about a millionand a quarter Palestinians, but on the other side of the JordanRiver you have another million and a half Palestinians­ So sucha PLO solution would not solve the Palestinian problem becausethe Palestinian prople would find themselves divided into two

sovereign countries­ But more than that, Israel, from her own

security aspect, cannot agree to the solution through a PLO­

Palestinian State, and inthis respect there is no differencebetween the Government and the Opposition­ ­­ . . Itwould be linked to the Soviet Union and also it would be

counter­productive to any peace process in the area­ We know

that the presence of the Soviet Union, not only in the MiddleEast, but in Asia, in Africa, is due to open conflict­ The

Soviets are in Syria, Iraq, Yemen through military assistanceand military advisers, military experts, and this is so

because there is an open conflict­ Where you have peace,the Soviets cannot have a foothold and for us to imaginea Palestinian State on the West Bank linked to the SovietUnion, linked. to Syria, Syria that has not abandoned thedream of La Grand Syrie­ Syria is today in Lebanon­ A

Bouple of months ago Syria threatened to enter Jordan, butSyria in 1970 actually invaded Jordan and for Syria to have

a Palestinian State on the West Bank linked to Damascus, thiswould again be a forward base for the realization of theold dream of a Greater Syria­

­44 ­

So this extreme solution of a PLO State, to my mind, does

not stand a chance, basically because Israel does not want

it­ I believe also that Jordan doesn't want it. I thinkthat the worst development in the area for Jordan todaywould be to have in Nablus an Arafat­government and a PLO State.So to my mind this is also not a solution.

I believe that the only solution that can bring apermanent peace to the area is a solution based on a compromise

and by'a compromise I mean a solution by which every partnerdoes not get 100# of what he would like to have, but he alsois not left empty­handed.

'For Israel, the compromise the Labour Aligafment believesin would mean that we would keep from the West Bank and Gaza

only the areas that is needed for our security, and we wouldbe ready to hand over to Jordan the area whWe hundreds ofthousands of Palestinians live­ This would mean that we

wouldn't get lOOfo of the land of our forefather­ And we

have historic rights on the West Bank, but this would be thesacrifice that we in Labour would be reaify to pay, to give,for a peace.

. For the Palestinians, the sacrifice, or the compromisewould be that they would have to give up the idea of creatinga new Palestinian State on the West Bank and Gaza, but theywill get, they would be freed of Israeli domination and. theywould find themselves in an Arab country where 80­90^ of thePalestinians live today. And for our eastern neighbor. namely

­45 ­

Jprdan, the compromise would be that Jordan would not getback the whole territory that Jordan lost in 196? but Jordanwould get the territory with most of the inhabitants, ormaybe all of the inhabitants? Jordan would. live in peacewith Israel; Jordan would have access to the Mediterraneanand I think that Jordan, economically, would gain from apeace with Israel more than any of our other neighbors.The border with Jordan goes from Lake Tiberius down to theRed Sea and along this border, really in a normal peacefulsituation, wonders could be done for the benefit of both sides­

We know that right now we cannot strive for such a

solution and therefore we must find. an interim agreementfor a transitional period in which if we are wise enoughto navigate the development constructively, maybe that afterfive years or three years of the actual implementation ofsuch an interim agreement like the autonomy agreement, forinstance, the attitude, the confidence of all parties in­volved might change towards a compromise which, to my mind,

is the only way to solve the problem. By demanding 100$,

the status quo will continue. And we as parliamentarians,I think that our duty is to try to influence, to convinceour own people and the people with whom we have contacts,in Europe, you also have contacts in the Arab world, we

have contacts with some people in the areas, to try to bringthrough the idea that unless all of us are ready to settlefor less than 100?£, are ready to compromise, unless all of us

­46 ­

do not reach such an attitude, the danger of the continuingstatus quo exists­ Thank you. (applause)

Dr. Abfallah 1 (Egypt) We agree with Gen Bar Lev

that we have to reach something inter­mediate and after the transition period that not only Syriawill forget about La Grande Syrie but also that some peoplein Israel will forget about La Grand Israel. So I thinkthat Dr. Mahfouz, after we hear Mr. Khaled; he, will oomment

on what Gen Bar Lev said­ Mr­ Talaat Khaled.

Mr­ Talaat Khaled1 (Member of the Parliament from El Arish)(speaks in Arabic) ­ translated into Hebrew

20.1.81 נכנסת פרלמנטרית משלחת ניקור

עברית. שפות של ונליל ערבוביה שתהיה כדי ערבית נרצוני^לדבר ראש, היושב אדוני. אנגלית. צרפתית, ערבית,

לנו יש אלא םאל­עריש, רק ל* שושלתי מאל­עריש שאני ענדאללה, ד­'ר שאמר כפיביחד, וכולם אחד עם כזאת רואים ואנו הרצועה של אורכה נכל וחיתונים שושרשיםאת הציל שהוא מפני נלהבו האנשים לאל­עריש. סאדאת הנשיא כשבא ראה חלקם כמובן

מהמלחמה. ואותנו ישראל"כמו השלום את להביא כדי העולם, סוף עד ללכת מוכן יהיה שהוא אמר, סאדאת הנשיא

הפחד; ממה לא.מבין אני האחרונה. המלחמה היא אוקטובר שמלחמת הנשיא אמר כמוהאופוזיציה יו"ר כאמל, מוםטפה מר שאמר כפי שומע, שאני האלה הסיפורים מכלהאזור, תועלת למעו סאדאת הנשיא ועושה שעשה במה משוכנעים אנו עבדאללה ודיירבאזור. האחרים העמים כל ותועלת מצרים של תו.עלתה למען ישראל, תועלת למען

­ 47 ­

Dr. Wafhaftig f (Israel) Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chairman,

distinguished ladies and gentlemen. Iwould like my few remarks, I will make three remarks. Firstof all, during the debate time and again came up the case djf

enmity between Israel and Egypt. Allow me as a­ Jewish talmudicalscholar to say, these three decades are for me only a tragicepisode in a thousand year relations between Egypt and Israel.There are good times, worse times, but in general the relationswere very close, cordial ties, during thousands of years­ IfI mention only two periods that I as a shholar deal with,research them, if I mention before the Christian era theFilem(?) period in Alexandria. The great philosophy develop­ment in Israel and Egypt, the eleventh century, after theChristian era, the Maimonides period. There were alwayscultural relations between the two peoples ­ culturally,geographically, historically and excuse me if I use the non­popular word, racially maybe, interwoven­ Maybe also linguisti­cally. And these relations should prevail over the case of enmity.

President Sad*t and Prime Minister Begin over againstressed the point that there are psychological barriersbetween these two nations and these psychological barriersshould be broken­ And in order to do that it seems to me

the only way is to make our peace a very real ene, a sincere '

peace­ To put more life into this peace­ If I0m speakingabout normalization, it means making this peace like two

friendly relations without barriers, unconditionally­ You know

­48 ­

that no problem is going to be solved by war or enmity ,:

but only by friendly relations. Let suspicion go, more heartopenness. And I want to mention how it is possible. Thereare many ways to do it. r..

We are very much aware that not all of the problems aresolved and of course the problem of the Palestinians, the .

problem of the areas, is the main problem that is not yet solved.The question is how to solve it, how to bring a solution $bout.In my opinion, the autonomy plan is still the best plan. Atleast for a long Period, a very long period, I don't know how

long, .but it is still the best plan. We must try to fulfill it>to implement it. But to be very sincere, you and we must admitthat if this Plan, despite the very able negotiations conductedby your leaders and by my colleague and friend, Dr. Burg, and

his People, despite these very able negotiations, the nego^­

tiatiohs were until now not fruitful enough, it is because theother partner is missing ­ the Palestinians. There were no

Palestinians willing to come to the table and to bring hisarguments. And it may be that it will still take much timeuntil we'll come to it­ It's not so easy to make negotiationswithout the essential partner. Eventually *he partner willshow up, he'll show up if he'll come to the final conclusionthat there is no other option, that the only possibility iSj

the possibility of Peace negotiations, of coming together,and this will come about when the Egyptian­Israeli peace willbe seen as very real, when he'll see that it can't be broken,that it is unconditional ­ then there will come b change alsoin the minds of our neighbors and in the minds of the PalestiniansWhen they see there is no other way but to come and try to do it#

­49 ­

Therefore it is also a question of how to make this peace avery real one­

A last remark, I heard that the remarks made by thehonorable member of Parliament of the Coptic faith Were ofvery much interest. Bassili Guirguis. I had the privilegeof being the Minister of Religious Affairs at the time ofthis problem and the quarrel between the Copts and theEthiopians­ I put in very much efforts to bring a peacefulsolution to this case­ I remember that Ethiopia then was

very friendly with Israel and they came to me, as Ministerof Religious Affairs. and claimed! politically we are yourrriands, Egypt politically is not. then you have to make asolution somewhat to our favor. I said no, I can't mix up

religious rights with political influence. I am very farfrom it and I try to make a solution to bring it about peace­fully, and if not. to bring a just solution, as much as I can.

The matter went over to our Supreme Court and it isstill in its hands. Now I am not in charge of the matter butI can assure you that all the sympathy and all the effortswill be made by the Israel government. it is not a question ofthe composition of the government, any Israel government, and

I believe in the Justice of our Supreme Court. It has alreadyProved that it is just, to bring about a just resolution alsoin this case. The best thing would be to find a peacefulsolution­ Anyhow. the head of the Coptic state is a friend ofmine and I can assure you that a whole sympathetic attitudewill be given to this matter­ Thank you.

­50 ­

Dr. Abdellah;

.. t^ ^ In the name of the delegation, I would like to thankMin. Warhaftig for his good will in helping us to

implement the resolution of this problem and torestore' theDer Sultan to the Egyptian church. Thank you in the name ofthe delegation. We hope that there will be a successfulappeal in our favor anyway. I think that Dr. Mahfouz would

like to comment on what Min. Bar Lev said.

Dr. Mahfouz 8 Mr. Chairman, first of all I would like to

apologize for asking for the floor a secondtime. I think I'm going to present a precedent so thateverybody might ask to comment but I believe what Gen Bar Lev

said is very important and some reflections ought to be given.

Although what has. been said is a very nicely put forwardof a scientific analysis of the problem, yet Iom afraid Idisagree with some of the basic principles upon which such ananalysis has been made­ The first disagreement concerning theconcepts that human rights are not supposed to be negotiable.Human rights are human rights, whether they are for Egyptians,Palestinians, Israelis. But what is negotiable is security,the concept of security. What do you want to have so thatyou will feel secure? And what we want to have to be secure­Security is not to be discussed from one side, but it isnecessary. We cannot live in peace unless both sides. or ansides, feel secure.

The second concept on which Gen­ Bar Lev based his 1

analysis was that the PLO is under the domination of Russia,'under the domination of the Syrians.' This is a generalization

i

­51 ­

which cannot be easily accepted­ To state that the PLO is infact a tool of Syria or this or that power, ignores completelythat Syria might be domesticated in the peaceful process. Iknow what is in the speakers mind because he thinks that thismight be a far=fetched possibility­ Not at all­ It can be done

is confidence­.build ing measures are acted upon with greatenthusiasm,on both sides­ When we hear here and there" fromyesterday until today that there has been too much anxiety,,presentation of books in Cairo was made into a fiasco­ And

what about things happening on the West Bank? What about so

many other items regarding the Palestinians" regarding theEgyptians in prison­ etc.9 in Israeli prisons­ There are so

many little things here andthere 0 If we consider them asthey are" each one" they would reflect badly" but we have alwaysto look upon such minute details separately.

The third point I want to raise is that the legalitywith which the whole Israeli­­Arab context is based upon" isbased upon the partition resolution of the United Nationswhich gave birth to two States" an Israeli State and a Pales.­tinianState a This legality could not be overthrown by themere suspicion" by the mere aggravated sense of being insecure,by the mere reflections of the bad experience of the past­

We have to dream a little bit, to dream about a Middle

Eastern region in which Egypt" the 22 Arab States, includingEgypt, a Palestinian State, and Israel" will work together, tostabilize this very sensitive area in the world * We should have

=52 ­­

a strategy for peace for the region. We in Egypt think, and

President Sadat has already mentioned several times that he isconcerned with the Soviet infiltration in Africa, in the Gulfarea, in Afghanistan, etc. We have put forward to the worldand. to the regionan ideology for peace in that region. We

want your participation but your participation and ours winnot be significant to the countries in the area unless we

succeed in solving the major issues which are hampering thepeace process. Thank you.

Prof­ lf. Ro'm: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ambassadors, dear :

colleagues, first I wish to join withmy friends in welcoming the Egyptian Parliamentary delegationhere to our Knesset in our capital Jerusalem. We should recognizethat peace must be a common interest, not just a concept, a

heavenly concept. I think peace must be based on political,economic, cultural and ideological bases. This interest mustrecognize that as President Sadat broke, in his visit here, Hispolitical vision, he broke a very basic Arab concept thatexisted until that time, the concept of recognizing of Israel­We should also recognize that Prime Minister Begin did so by

convincing the Israeli Parliament and Israelis to accept a

very high price in terms of strategic and economic assets ofour country, Israel took agreat. chance on its future for thesake of Peace. This should be recognized in all our discussions.

Furthermore, the common interest in peace that I'm talkingabout should recognize also the right of the Jewish People forself­determination. We heard a lot about self­determination here.

­53 ­

But the Jewish People also have the right to self­determinationand the Jewish People not only from Europe but from all partsof the world, including the Jewish People from the Arab countries.I would like to stress on this occasion that more than half ofthe Jewish people of Israel come from Arab countries. Israel. ,

solved the right of the Jewish People toself­determination , ofJews from all of those countries, both from the Arab countriesand from Europe. Too many times we concentrate only on theJewish people's problems in Europe and forget about fact thatmore than half of our population comes from Arab countries and

they have also, like anybody else, the right of self­determination,

We should recognize, and I listened very intently thewords of Dr. Mahfouz about the UN resolution. We shouldremember that the right of the Jewish people to self­determinationis not based on the UN resolution of 194?. It is based on ourhistoric ties with Palestine, Eretz Yisrael, for many more

generations than just the 1947 resolution and the fact politicallythat the 1947 resolution was not accepted. And after the 1947'resolution it was not accepted by the Arab countries . After theresolution of 1947 we had to go to fight five wars and now we

are trying to cement peace. So let's not go back to old re­solutions. I'm sure that you can cite resolutions, we can citeresolutions­ We want to look to the future, to build a peace.

In that respect, I would like to point out to our dearcolleagues of Egypt that with all due respect for the Palestinianproblem that we heard so much about, let us not forget that themain problems of the Middle East, the main issues and the main

­54 ­

conflicts of the Middle East do not exist only here, on bothsides of the Jordan­ We should look at what is happeningbetween Libya and Chad, what is happening between Iraq and Iran,in the Persian Gulf, in the Horn of Africa, between North­SouthYemen and. Saudi Arabia, and many more problems­ We should lookat what is happening to our north in Lebanon where there is a

danger of the extermination of the Christian minority inLebanon. All these problems exist in the Middle East and we

have to address ourselves to how to cement peace in theMiddle East, how to increase the peace in the Middle Eastjnot'to mention what is happening.in Afghanistan and the in­volvement of Soviet Russia, the Soviet Empire, in this area.

1

^/7 additional point I would like to mention to ourcolleagues ­ that we in Israel must take recognition of, isthe fact that the five Arab States to our east are spending J

more than $30b annually on arms. I you take Syria, Iraq,Jordan, Saudi Arabia, these countries are spending somethinglike $30b annually for what? Don't we have to think about '

our 1security when we see such huge figures?

. So in that respect, I think that we have to look atthe Israeli­Egyptian peace as a step, a very !Important stepthat we should try to build into a process that will eventuallybring us to a comprehensive peace. But if we do not do itwisely we may find ourselves not working towards peace butG­d forbid to other things. So this must be done in such a

way that the peace should be cemented on an economic and culturalbasis.

­55 ­

I was very glad to hear of the understanding that we

have to include cultural exchange­ people­to­people exchange,and here I would also like to add that the model that we shouldlook at to the future is the process that went on in Europe, inWestern Europe, after hundreds of years of conflicts. If we

go into the history of the conflict between the French, German

and all the other peoples in Europe. The first step towards aEuropean Common Market that today takes in ten countries inEurope started in the common steel and coal community betweenFrance and Germany right after the Second World War, after thevery bloody conflict between these two States.

I believe,, and I suggested this many times during thenegotiations" and I think that it is not too late and we shouldactually point to this direction, interrelations between Egyptand Israel, and try to look for common interests, for common

economic projects andthis can be in the petro­chemical fields,in industrial centers, in agricultural projects, in common

interest between Egypt and Israel. If we do that, and if we

invest both Egyptian and Israeli political, economic manpower,

intelligence and work, and I'm sure that both countries have

the power to raise such projects. If we do that, maybe thiscan be the basis for other States in the Middle Eait to joinsuch projects.

I believe if we set up a joint committee to study suchcommon projects that will insure that by basic economic, politicalinterests of the two countries, this could be a very importantstep on which to base the peace, not only on our beliefs and ourlongings. I believe that all Israelis and all Egyptians, I'm sure

­56 ­

that you, after visiting here­ will be convinced that there isnothing more important or more interesting to Israelis than tohave Peace­ I think we proved. that­ Therefore , we have to seethat this peace should be based on common strong foundationsand this is left to both governments, Parliaments­ and peoplesto establish. I hope that from meetings like this we can stepforward to such common projects­ Thank you­

Di^yeiAhUSi­Hainid Ess; . Mr­ Chairman, thank you very much

for giving me another opportunity­ I would.

only like to comment again on Mr. Bar Lev's speech­ I d0 COJnL

pletely agree with him on some points and disagree onothers 8

For example­ I am quivte sure that once we negotiate­ I shouldn'timagine that I can get 100* of what I'd. like to have­ but at thesame time I will never accept to get 10­20^ of what I would liketo have.

Secondly, he tried to forget a very important fact, '

self "determination of the Palestinians themselves. We didn'tsay that there a any problem between Egypt and Israel, but we

have to think of the initial Problem. The initial problem was

and is between the Palestinians themselves and the State of .

Israel, and once we neglect this fact, it is very difficultfor us to attract or encourage Arab countries to join thePeace treaty­ That is why I would like to emphasize on thefact that it is not the right of Egypt even to negotiate insteadof the Palestinians­ We said, and Pres­ Sadat said, that oncethey have their own fullself­­autonomy, they hgve to choose

their way­ So these negotiations could take place afterwards ,

with the Palestinians themselves­ We don't want to jump tothe conclusion for them, but all I wanted to indicate is, we

­57 ­

just try to look forward in order to fulfill all the detailswhich have been indicated in the peace treaty especially inrespect to theself ­­determination of the Palestinians themselves"and not for the Egyptians to determine instead of themo

Mr<>Halevi 8 Mr­ Speaker" distinguished guests andcolleagues 0

I feel you?visit to Israel" in our Knesset" ia a

real concrete step forward in normalization of !eur relations" asit should be between parliamentarians" colleagues" democrats" inboth countries. You come on an occasion when you will witnessan important step of legislation in the afternoon when you willbe ou^guests" a bill for the dissolution of the present Parlia­ment and fixing a date for early elections­ You can see" aseyewitnesses" you can witness the democratic process in Israeland the division of coalition and opposition working this veryday when you arrived here0

This is also an eventful date of the inauguration of anew President of the United States and a day when all the freeworld expects the freeing of the hostages of Iran tothe AmericanState 9 So we all see that we are part of one world and we areneighbors here and friends in this peace treaty between ourselves"this is a step of friendship" ongoing friendship­ And we arevery glad indeed that President Sadat broke the so­calledpsychological barriers when he said here in the Knesset threeyears ago that it is 70fo of things working ggainst peace" itis not objective" it is psychological ­< It is a feeling. So

it is this feeling of friendship among ourselves" of cordiality"that we are working for the same cause" the cause of peace inthe Middle East" beginning with our two neighboring countries"which will expands

­58 ­

We cannot discuss today the details of things which .

have taken several years to foster in the Camp David agreement.I shall only make another remark. One extraordinary feature ofPres. Sadat's opening of negotiations with us was that he didnot wait for the United States to act. On the contrary. Itwas a: step which was not expected by either the Soviet Union

or the United States. He turned directly to his neighbors.Egypt and Israel should work things out directly. There is no

necessity for a third power supervising our negotiations, ourfriendship. This was a revolution.

I remember many years ago we were both under colonial <.

British rule, both Egypt and Israel, or Palestine, as it was

at the ­time. I served as a judge in the British administrationof Palestine during the Second World War and I remember thefeeling of friendship with Egyptians, as opposed to our rulers.They were anti­British and we were anti­British. We wanted to1

be liberated and you wanted to be liberated. And the bonds ofcommon interest and friendship united the Egyptian people and

the Israeli people. This bond of friendship has been renewed

and we willfind the means of carrying out the Camp David agree­ment, although it ought not to have been in America, at Camp

David, it might have been a Jerusalem agreement and a Cairo :

agreement or an El Arish agreement. This is between neighborsand friends. And so in this period we will welcome not only *

the parliamentarians whom we welcome very much indeed, but alsoa soccer team which should play football in Tel Aviv and

Alexandria, anyplace, where the relations will be good. And

­59 ­

with regard to the Palestinians, this is part of the agreementreached at Camp David, and will be carried out, for autonomy,

it will be hammered out. It will take some time and it willbe a transition period and things will come otut of them, if we

have a spirit of friendship between our two great and. proudnations. Thank you.

Dr. ElKassas / I would like to introduce myself as a

working scientist and not as a politician.I want to say two things 8 that we scientists in Egypt and Israelhad our relationship much earlier than your political accordsand behind your backs, when you were making wars, we Fere invery good contact. I think I knew, I corresponded, I exchangedpapers with every professor of botany at the Hebrew University,since professor*­­ Evensri ­ind .. , may they have long life­ Iam saying this because probably if we politicians would give

up messing up the situation and leave it to scientists (bo

manage the situation, perhaps we would be in e better form.

I think we were talking about the Palestinians and we

were talking about Israel and let me tell you py own point ofview as I see it. I believe that the justification and thereasoning of establishing the State dJf Israel is to provide theJewish people all over with a home, with a flag, with also a

refuge in case they would be subject <bo danger . This is anational aspiration that the State of Israel represents.

But no wise person would think of the return £f I.*..?

eight millions who live in New York to come and live in thedeserts of the Negev. Nor would we think that the !billions who

live in Europe would come back and live here. Equally we would

say with equal strength, with equal validity, that there is a­60 ­

need for a symbolic state for the Palestinian Arabs. Nobody

would think that all the millions of Palestinian Arabs outsideneed come back. The concept of return need not be a part ofthe final resolution of the,situation, but there is truly a

\\^^6 for the creation of a symbolic home, with a flag, with. national aspirations, where the Palestinian Arabs would feelthat they have a home.

I think justice would bear on us that we must accept ,

these two basic concepts equally . There is every justificationand there is nobody and there is nobody who can destroy thisbit of Israel. And we should not all the time live under thepressure of fear­ I think that during the wars that we had inthe thirty years time, we were all trying to twist each other'sarmso Let us go to a phase where we all try to twist eachother's hearts towards peace­ Then there will bepeace and peacecannot be for one or two or us. Peace must be for all. Pea'ce

must be for everybody­ Peace must not be for today but peacemust be forever. If we want to have peace, it must have thesetwo, qualifications .

; From our point of view, and Iem still speaking as an ­­

individual Egyptian, no member of any party, of any association,but as individual Egyptians speaking to your people, it would

be very easy for the Egyptians to say we have now settled ourproblems with Israel and we have a peace treaty. We never had

a problem with Israel. The problem between the Egyptians and:1

Israel was all the time a part of theregional issue and regionalproblem. It would be very easy for an Egyptian to say, as some

of our colleagues have just said, let us forget about the Pales­tinian issue, let us think of the peace between Egypt and Israel,

­61­ .­ i

and we have every reason, historical and present, to be'lieve'in peace between Egypt and Israel. This would be the easyway, but this would not be an everlasting peace 0 because we

cannot divorce ourselves from the realities of the region inwhich we live­ We do not liant, as Egyptians, to take the easyway, because the easiest way would be ­ let us have a settlementwith Israel, let us be finished with war" let us close ourdoors and let us live in Egypt and develop our own countryand forget about the rest. But we sincerely believe that peacecan be divided 0 Peace cannot be piecemeal. Peace should be

for everybody and for all time. Thank you­

Mr. Berman t My colleague Mr. Eban told me thatthose who care for human rights should

also pay attention to the human beings who are in this room, so

in this spirit I'd like to clear the floor and help to relieveyou from this lengthy ordeal" I hope we shall have more oppor­tunities to exchange views. I have a lot of things to say and

react to, but I think everyone is a little tired, at least thiswould be my modest contribution to the peace process. (laughter,applause)

*******

Mre Hariah; You will allow me to make a very special word ofwelcome to the head of the Egyptian delegation, .

Dr­ Mohamed Abdallah, from whom I learned more about Egypt,the Egyptian people, Egyptian problems and thinking than fromanybody else in Israel or anywhere else. I had the pleasureof meeting Dr­ Mohamed Abdallah twice before, once before thepeace agreement was concluded, before the Camp David agreement,within the framework of the Socialist International. There was

a meeting in Vienna in whihh the Egyptian delegation was led by­62 ­

the present Egyptian Prime Minister and Dr­ Abdallah was a

member of the delegation at the time. Our delegation was ledby Shimon Peres, and it was the first contact I think that we

had a lengthy discussion before the peace agreement. The secondtime I had the very great pleasure to accompany Shimon Peres,at the invitation of President Sadat. 1 recall our days there,when D|r. Abdallah welcomed us and helped us, and therefore I !

have the very special pleasure to welcome him here today­

©vill make two very short remarks, one from an aspectwhich was not mentioned and that is the peace agreement betweenEgypt and Israel was based on two bases 8 one, the very big wishand aspirations of both our peoples for peace­ I think thiswas the strong element which was exposed very much during PresoSadat's visit to Israel, and I heard him say it, how he was

affected by the reaction in Israel and in Egypt when he wentback­

The other is a much more realistic but is as importantas the first, and this came from the way we both perceived the '

dangers to the area coming from the global situation at themoment. I think we all know that we are in the midst of a veryserious energy crisis in the world today which is a key to many ,

of the: developments in the world and the area being as rich asenergyit is in terms of/resources attracts many of the world as

orientation and confrontation in this area.

The area is the main supplier of oil to the West today­ f

The Soviet Union is and has been for the last decades self­supplying in terms of oil and energy, but the Soviet Union is ­

coming to the point where in 3< **­ 5 years its production of oilwill not be enough to supply itself which means that it is going

­63 ­

to compete for the oil that is going to the West,, either ineconomic terms or in terms of political or military influence 0

And the point where they are going to look for oil is theMiddle East, the Gulf area, Iran. I think this is the basicdanger we are facing in many ways, and the lack of stability"like the war between Iran and Iraq" the confrontation aroundSaudi Arabia, Libya and Chad" this is what is creating thedanger today which we both face. Syria,­ because of itsconflict with Iraq, and its reliance on the Soviet Union, notbecause they love the Soviet Union, I don" t believe thatoSo the biggest enemy we have is the lackof stability­ There­fore we both have a big interest in trying to create stability"which means trying to promote peace in the area­

Egypt and Israel have taken the lead to bring aboutstability in a very turbulent area­ I think we are still ina situation, in the Middle East and in the world, that we willhave to take the lead in order to enlarge the peace process o

Therefore I think on this principle we can agree.

But when we go beyond that­ we come to a very specificproblem which was mentioned today, of course the Palestinianproblem is the key to the further development of the peaceprocess between Israel and Egypt­ But I think we are takingtwo problems and mixing them up too easily­ One is the Pales"tinian problem. What is its solution? It has two aspects­ Ithas an aspect, which was mentioned " or a political kind, theneed for a political solution. But there is a second aspectwhich can't be disregarded" and this is the refugee problemwhich for years was the main problem and it has somewhat beenpushed into a corner and. the refugee problem cannot be compared

to any other problem, whether it is the Christians in Lebanon,­64 ­

or with Syria, or in Gaza. Without a solution of that problem

which comes together with a solution of the political problem,,

there is no solution. That problem cannot be solved withinthe framework of the West Bank and Gaza si one c This is where

the difficulty comes in. There can be no solution of thePalestinian problem taken apart from the other side of Palestine.A fter all, the eastern part of the.Jordan River was also Palestineand in 1922 the Colonial Office in London decided, forpoliticalreasons, to say this is Palestine, this is hot Palestine o ,

Jordan is Palestine geographically, historically , by the majorityof its population, there are fewer differences between the popu­lation of Jordan and the western side of the river than you;findin Lebanon, Syria, Ira^, or certainly Irairo Therefore, when we

look for a solution we look at both sides, and this is where Ithink Haim Bar Lev was saying that we need a solution that is nota separate State on the West Bank and Gaza because first of­allby not solving the real problem of the Palestinian refugees,it will not stabilize the situation and it will not create peace.

The second aspect is from the Israeli point of view.What kind of solution has Israel to live with? And when one

speaks about a solution, one cannot get away from the fact thatfor Israel ­the West Bank, among others, in some places is 16

'kms­ from the sea. The security point is not just psychological 9

there is a psychological problem we have to face. The psycho­logical problem is our history and Pres­ Sadat, when he came here,and since then we are

always stressing this 0 . . (?) But there is a realproblem,I6lsms9 from the sea, near our population centers. We want peacebut we all know that a real peace can only be based on the idea,on the feeling that we must be assured against threats from "theother side.

­65 ­

This you must understand when we speak about it and thelast thing I want to mention here, I think one condition forIsrael on which it can hope to make peace with the Palestiniansis the condition that the Palestinian side has the same startingpoint as the Egyptian side had when we opened the o ... and thatis the recognition of the existence of Israel and the statementthat there is a wish to make peace­

The PLO is in extreme opposition to the Egyptian pointof view on the relationship with Israel and on that view which

is not only against our position but against your position, on

that view the PLO is, in the foreseeable future, based on itsstructure, ideology, set­up, will not be a partner, not becausewe don0 t want it, but because by its structure it is no partnerfor peace. That's what they decided, that's what they say,they say they are not a party for peace.

So what we have to look for among the Palestinians isfor those Palestinians, leaders and so on, who say yes, we want

to make peace, we want to live in peace, who say the same thingsthat the Egyptian people, the Egyptian government, the EgyptianPresident has said­ which brought about this peace process­

Mr, Amnon Lynn ! (Arabic"(

Mre M. Porush 1 Madam Speaker, Mr. Chairman of theEgyptian delegation, Mr. Ambassador,

the dialogue itself is really something vhich I would say isvery important but as much as it is important the dialogue initself because naturally we will hear from you, you will listento us and this is very important but the main thing is the visititself. The visit itself is a very important step in thenormalization between both countries.

­66 ­

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אינטרסים אין^נגוד כי משוכנעים אנו יסודי, הבדל קייםהעוגיות, המדינות כל ובין ישראל בין וענינית פהוחית מבחינה

השונים הניגודים למרות מצרים, עם שלום להסכם באנו אף כך ומשוםמצרים. עם לשלום להגיע יכולנו

ו.

ישראל מדינת של קיומה עצם הרי הפלסטיני לענין באשר ברם,המקפל י נ הפלסטי 0 נ י המד הרעיון את סוחר ציונית כמדינה והשארותהישראל­ השמדת של והפילוסופיה ישראל השמדת של הרעיון את בתוכו

השמדת מסמך של בעיה פילוסופית, בעיה איפא, היא,י הבעיה, י­ הידועים,, הפלסטיניים הארגונים "י ע שנתקבל ישראל

אך ערב, מדינות כל עם לשלום מוכנה ישראל לדעתי, לכן,בנושא להתרכז כולנו ועל קשה, בעיה היא הפלסטינית הבעיה

וכנקודת כהתחלה למצרים, ישראל בין והנורמליזציה האוטונומיה. \י י י מוצאלהסכםכוללבעתיד.

ו

במצרים הייתי כי ושוב., לומר רצוני דברי, את שאסיים לפניברצונו נכון אל 'ויתחרשו בישראל שהותכם /בעת חשתם בוודאי ואתם וחשתי.

הערביים" והעמים המדיניות עם כולל לשלום בישראל העם של

לומר, לי הרשו אך בדרכנו, מכשולים ימים קי כי אני יודעהנושבות:ולמרות ואלו ח ר מיז ה מן הבאות הרעות הרוחות המכשולים/ אף על כי

ברוחות כין כמו להבחין עלינו ­ מצרים לעבר הקרוב המערב מןןי ,1 ומירושלים­ מקהיר הנושבות הטובות

ספינתנו מפרשי ולכוינן מעשינו,, לכלכל כולני עיל 'שומה לפיכך,שנחיה כדי השלהם,, הוא הלא המיוחל המבטחים חהף לעפר המשותפיםמצרים בין קיים שיהיה יציב בשלום ונכדינו ילדינו ואתם, אנו

במזה"ת, כולל 'ילשלוס כהתחלה וישראל

ץ

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לין אמנון הכנסת דברי­חברמערבית) דבריו (חרגרם

את בדיוק יודעים היהודים חברי הערבית; בשפה אליכם לדבר לי הרשובתרגום­ איפוא, צורך, ואין רעיונותי

ידועה כולנו המזרח בני אנו והרי במזה"ת, ידוע במשל אתחיל דברי אתהתפלה), (לפני בחול בהיטהרות צורך אין מים, שיש במקום האמרה: לכולנובחול. הטהרות מעין הם דברי אבן, אבא ורבי מורי דברי אחר ואמנם,

הפלסטיני, הענין על משפטים כסה לדבר עתה אעבור פנים כל על

בפרלמנט באוניברסיטאות, בקרתי במצרים, הייתי והלוא יודע, אני אחיס,כי ­ לבתיהם אותי הזמינו אף הפרלמנט מחברי ואחדים אחרים, מקומות ובכמה

להקמתה היהודים מקרב 99^ של לאי­נכונותם באשר הבנה אי אצלכם שקיימת אפשרפלסטינית­ מדינה של

מונחת שביסודו הדבר וזהו ­ לבעיה" "המפתח בשם מכנים אנו הזה הנושא אתההבנה, אי של המשמעות

במלחמה הרוצה בקרבנו אדם שאין היא הבע'יה חשש0 או פחד של ענין זה אין י\

היו­ שכבר המלחמות ארבע אחר ששית או חמישית

העם כמו כמוהו המצרי העם כי משוכנעים גם ואנו השלום, את רוצים אנואחראית, .בורך הפלסטינית בבעיה לטפל אנו חייבים מכאן בשלום­ רוצה "הישראליבאומץ הוא סאדאת של אומץ­לבו כי הסבורים האנשים מן הנני כשלעצמי,

תיו תעיינו/בהיסטוריהבעמדו אם כי אומץ­לב, הוא גם הוכיח בגין ואכן, בגין. של לבוובעזה, המערבית בגדה ממשל­עצמי הקמת בדבר הצעתו כי לדעת, תיווכחו בגין של

הצבור בקרב סאדאת של כארסץ­לבו בדיוק חבריו, בקרב אומץ­לב של לדבר נחשבתהערבי,

הנה, היא לממשל­עצמי בגין של הצעתו כי משוכנע, אני מדוע כן, עלכולל שלום של לפתרון להגיע כדי היחידי ואולי ביותר הטוב הצעד הנוכחי, בזמן

פרי תקצור בר­לב של הצעתו גם אולי יודע, מי הרחוק, שבעתיד (אפשר במזה"ח?רוצים אנו אם כי ­ בלי­מה) על העומדת הצעה זוהי כיום אך במזה"ת, לעתידשל הדרך זולת דרך שאין הרי באזור, כולל שלום של פתרון של בדרך להתקדם

לשלום0 בהסכמתו בקמפ­דיוויד, שנקבעה בגין ­ סאדאת

ההבדל להבהיר אני רוצה אך נאום, לשאת היום מתכוון אינני פנים, כל עללהקמת ו אי­נכונותינ לבין ערב מדינות כל עם מלא לשלום ישראל של רצונה שבין

פלסטינית, מדינה

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But I think that if someone had said ten years ago

that there would be a meeting li,ke this one in Israel, in nurv­

Knesset, people would say he's a dreamer, a false prophet.No one of us thought that this would really come about. t

On this occasion, I would like to express myself, maybe

it's difficult, by reading, hot from heart to heart by talking,what I would like to read on this occasion, first of all Iwould like to identify myself. I' am not a newcomer to Jerusalem,I was born here. My father was born here­. My grandfather was

born here­ ­ And more than this, I'm the seventh generation herein Israel. My grandchild makes our family the nihth generation.As for my age, I can tell you that I have already a great­grandchild, which makes our family here for ten generations inthe ,holy city of Jerusalem. (applause). Therefore , I would

like, to bring to your attention, when we talk about Jerusalem,we­are not talking about Jerusalem as a capital. A capital 1

means a lot, but Jerusalem is not only a capital for us. Up

until now, I haven't found anything written that expresses nurreal feelings about Jerusalem. Maybe this will express it ­.­it is the soul of the Jewish People, Jerusalem is like thesoul, you cannot touch it. Anyhow, I would say, don't touch it,Because this is what gives us life,. like aman without a soulis not alive, that for us is the meaning of Jerusalem.., . .

I want to tell you something. In the history of the '

Jewish People, after the destruction of the holy Temple 1800

years ago, in those 1800 years, not one year, not one month,not one day weren't we able to go and be at our holy. places ­

­67 ­

*. .­*

here in Jerusalem. Only 20 years and those 20 years I wouldlike to wipe out from our history and the history of our family,These were the 20 years when we weren't able to go to our holyplaces, when there wasn't a day in our history when we weren'table ,to go there­

On this occasion I would like to tell you, I, as areligious Jew, and I can understand and have the feeling foreveryone who believes in whatever he believes, as long as he

believes, that for everyone his holy places means a lot. Ican tell you being here in Jerusalem, born in Jerusalem, Ican8 t remember when the holy places of all religions were keptup so nicely as they have been kept during the time since theSix Day War­ This I would like you to remember­

One of you made a point, I'm sorry I can't remember yourname, that the Jewish People needs Israel as a.State, as a symbol,because you cpnft imagine that the eight million Jews of Americawill come to settle here­ One of the rabbis in Jerusalem Said

when one in theafter ;the BalfourDeclaration, /asked. by/ delegation of the ;

British government of that time, how is it possible that you

think that in this little Israel there will be all the Jewishpeople? The rabbi answered, did you ever hear a mother saythere is not enough space in her house for all her children?

For us in Israel I would say that that is the fundamentalmisunderstanding. We are not looking for a symbolic State. We

are looking for a place, we deserve a place, we have people who

believe that what was written in the Bible that this took placehere, that this is where the Jewish People have to be, this iswhat we wanted. Who can say that we don't have a right to be "

ך

here, in this little area that we have­ We don't have the 96,000­68 ­

square kilometers that Jordan has. They have 96,000 squarekilometers for a population of 1,600,000 people. We don'thave the 185,000 sq. kilometers that Syria has. We don0t have

the ^38,000 sq. kms. that Iraq has. It's a question for theArab world, a symbolic State? Having twenty States around us?The Jewish People exists since the creation of the world, andwe also want a place where to live, to be. This is not a

symbolic request for us. We want tohave a State in which we

will be alive, and this gives us the soul, which is Jerusalem.

Mr♦D­ Rosolio 1 Dear colleagues, dear friends, I'm '

­" ­ . saying it in that way: because I feelthat after talking about for a 'long time, ;although we're sittinglike in a classroom, there is something creative here in theenvironment which is very, very positive. Of course, asMeir Amit mentioned, there are many things which have to be

said. I will allow myself to make only two,three very briefremarks becauseI'm aware of. the time, and. I'm sure that it isnot a conventional meeting but the beginning of a continuous' :

dialogue, also on the parliamentary level which is vital if 1

we want to improve our relations which is a basic need forthe 5Middle East. I think that by Pres. Sadat's visit and thebeginning of the peace process there was the probability of

the change of process in the Middle East and. we have to have' it.I think that the fact of the dialogue, as Rabbi Porush mentioned,today is not less important than the content. The fact that,. weare sitting together and talking.

Now I want to present myself from a very unusual angle,and I don't know if my Israeli colleagues know this piece of my

biographic detail. I am one of the. few Israelis, I think we are­69 ­

around 300, who had the official status of Palestinian refugeesafter the 19^8 war. I want to mention it because I don't remember

if it was one of our Israeli or Egyptian colleagues who said we

have to forget and now we have to have new relations.

No, our new relations, our peace, the process is based on

our mutual experience, and you Dr. Mahfouz mentioned the experience<B 19^8 and 1956 for you personally and we can continue of oourse.And how does it come that I was a Palestinian refugee? SecauseI was a member of a kibbutz which was located near Jericho whichwas dismantled. So I personally also went through the experienceof what it means for a person to be a member of a dismantledsettlement and. I think it is relevant for the exchange of ourexperiences, not only of our views.

I think we have also shown on that issue that there arealternatives to creating refugee camps. We resettled, arsbuilta new home. I cannot compete with Rabbi Porush but I can alsotalk about my grandchildren who are living in a new home thatwe have built. I say it because I think that we have to choosealternatives in the Middle East, we have to choose alternativesin our relations and I think that we have to show togethervis­a­vis other camps. I decided to make this comment, althoughit is not very political, but I think that we have to anchor :

our talks in all our experiences.

Now I want to make a remark on what I think is one ofthe things we can really contribute ­ I don't know how much ourEgyptian colleagues are aware that in our feelings we are in a

unparalleled situation, speaking about peace, which means we

are talking not only psychologically, we are talking about oursurvival ­ If a State and. people are thinking on the level of

­70 ­ :

survival, not only of peace and war or security, but on

survival which is based not only on our recent nationalexperience but also on our current location in the Middle East,you have to understand our sensitivity, besides being readyto give up, to compromise, and. I think that it r.. was mentionedby Abba Eban, the kind of flexibility that Isr?­x efhows isthe first move of Pres. Sadat who gave the guidelines, theseare our national emotions, our national longings. But for ussecurity is not just a slogan, it"s not a symbol, itos a means

of survival. Therefore we are so sensitive about it.

I believe and. I don't say it as a politician thatprocesses if they are to succeed have to be based an constructivedeeds which can be shown. Between Ismailiya and Beershebalies a vast and huge desert­ The desert can be a aeans of .

separation between Israel and Egypt, and it can be the1 key of' mutual constructive development of all the area­ In this areaof the desert there is water, soil and it is under the jurisdictionof people of history, of intelligence and it can be a combined

and mutual effort to make this place a paradise and it will ­

have an influence beyond many things that we are talking aboutand can be a very important key to improve peace and I 'think''.that in that sense, that is the real meaning of normalization.To take together a constructive path, project, and to build .it .

I think that in this sense Iom concluding, I would see ourfurther relations developing­

Dr. Mohamed Ahmed Abdallahg Thank you Madam Chairman, dearcolleagues, time is getting late,

there were a few more remarks but we'll postpone it for anothermeeting­ At the end, I would like on behalf of the entire

­71 ­

Egyptian delegation to thank you for pour hospitality and

your friendly words­ In reality. I think today's meeting was

very positive, and very useful and fruitful for us to understandeach other. At *he end, I want to send a message to theIsraeli people, through the Knesset members pepresenting thebig parties .

This message is that we are still waiting for theIsraeli initiative towards the Palestinians in the cor xt ofPres. Sadat's initiative towards Israel. Thank you. (applause)

Madam Chairman > We want to thank you very much for this meeting(S­ Arbeli­Almozlino) ..., _and we'll do our best­ both the Egyptian and.

Israeli peoples to strengthen our relationship between the two

countries and to do our best to proceed on the peace process­Please give our best wishes and warm regards to the wholeEgyptian people ­ and to President Sadat especially. (applause)

********

Mr. Berman 8 Dr. Abdallah, members of the Egyptiandelegation­ members of the Knesset"

I want to welcome you here again­ This is the second sessionbetween members of the Egyptian delegation and the Israeli grouprepresenting factions in the Knesset. We had ©ne dialogueyesterday and this is the continuation of the dialogue­ I hope

that we shall all be very frankp open and say ill that we have

to say without reservation, that's the purpose of the dialogue.Since time is short Dr­ Abdallah and I agreed that we requestparticipants­ just as we did yesterday ­ to limit themselves tofive minutes. A great deal can be said in five minutes­

­ 72 _

I would also like to mention a request of Gen. Ezer i

Weizman. He was unable to attend dinner yesterday, he's very

sorry 0 His son underwent an operation the day before and

that's why he couldn8 t come yesterday or (Soday. He said he

wanted very much to come but was unable to do so on accountof this, present very difficult situation that he has with hisson­ He asked me to convey to you his apologies and I hope

you understand that he was unable to come.

Dra Abdallahs Thank you Mr­ Speaker, dear colleaguesan^ friends.Yesterday we started a very positive dialogue

despite differences in approach and points of view we ggreedupon some main issues. First that the October War, as £res. Sadatsaid, must be, and is and will be the last ®ne. Secondly, thatthe peace between Israel and Egypt is a fact ifnd it reflectsthe will of the two peoples. It is not only the decision ofa leader or some of the leaders in Egypt and Israel. Thirdly,peace in the Middle East must be a global peace, must be a ;justpeace" and that means that we have to take into consideration

i

the core of the problem which is and. remains the Palestinianproblem. Fourth, that we have to exchange views, we have tounderstand each other because this is the best way to createthis kind of dialogue and to pave the way towards more mutualunderstanding.

Yesterday we had. a meeting with your colleagues and otherparliamentarians. We had in mind everyone who is freely anddemocratically elected is representing the whole country , no

matter if his party is a minor party or a ma j or one, no matterif he has a majority or is a member of the coalition or isindependent or in the opposition, he is representing the entire

_ 73 ­

country. He is talking in the name of the whole country, he

assumes the responsibility of being fair to his country, toyiiat ­ So I see the dialogue of today maybe from intellectualpoint of view will be very interesting­ We will continue what

we started yesterday­ I think that something very personal,the first book I read written by an Israeli was a book writtenby Mr­ Uri Avinery, I read it in France and once he was inFrance and there was a conference held by him and I attendedthis, but in a discrete way because at that time it was shockingto attend a conference held by an Israeli, professor or politician. r' Be1Wa" 8 I just want to repeat a statement I made

yesterday because I see that it didn'tsink in properly, and that is to point out that the baskets infront of you contain actual fruit and not plastic ornaments­ Soplease help yourselves.

V? >FerkhundaJfouBgef , Mr­ Speaker, thank you for giving me thefloor, Mr­ Chairman, and I would like to

ensure our pleasure and honor to be here with our colleagues inthe Knesset­ trying to participate physically in the process ofnormalization, in following our agreements and in completeconviction in all that it implies­

I would like to start by giving you an idea about my

feelings after yesterday's meeting. Frankly, although I was .

convinced before I came heee to Israel with the true intentionof the Israeli People for Peace, but yesterday I was extremelyhappy and satisfied and I can say that I am 100* convinced. thatthe people of Israel are no less eager for peace than we are­If we happened to start by having the initiative of Pres­ Sadat.it was just for some of us we thought that we are more eager for

­74 ­

peace than the Israelis but yesterday I'm confessing that 1

now believe that you are no less eager than we are­

The discussions of yesterday and the questions raisedand the frank response of everybody gave me a spectrum ofthoughts that it is very healthy for us as Egyptians to be

exposed to. We knew some of the facts that were mentionedyesterday but I don't know why, we knew them in a different way.

It is very much different to hear it from the People concernedthan reading it in newspapers or hearing it from others. As

I said­yesterday, we have no problems or obstacles as Egyptianswith Israelis­ We are following the schedule as set and plannedand agreed upon by Camp David and we have no concern about whatis going to happen following that, as Egyptians and Israelisregarding Sinai and other issues. but the only Problem left mfront of both of us is the Palestinian problem­

The Palestinian Problem is not that easy, as some of usthink, and it is not unsolvable as some of us also think­ Inboth countries, we have different views and some Egyptiansbelieve­ as some Israelis here­ that the Palestinian problemwill never be solved, but I think despite the fact that it isvery difficult and it needs another Camp David but what we'resupposed to do as the two countries, we have proved to theworld and to the Arab world in particular and *f course to thePalestinians that we are both trying our best ifnd doing all thatwe can to put them on the right track and let them go on from

there­ They need us toput them on the right track­ it Win be

verv difficult for them to start this Process by themselves anddefinitely they need the full cooperation of the Israelis and

the Egyptians, of course this does not eliminate other parties­75 ­

in the Arab world, but for the time being I think it is inour hands, and let us do all we can­ We both are eager, we

both sacrificed and let us continue that, $0 prove to the worldthat we really mean peace and the comprehensive peace in thetrue meaning­ Thank you. (applause)

M0K.MosheShamir 8 Thank you Mr. Chairman, ladies ifnd gentlemen­It is not easy not to be swept away by

emotion when such a meeting takes place, but in spite sBf thefact that maybe emotions are my business I will try not to be.

Dear guests, yesterday we all witnessed a very interestingday in two democracies, one the biggest and the other maybe aneof the smallest­ I refer to the USA and Israel­ We saw achange of guard­ The Israeli Parliament you saw, you were there,voted for earlier elections and in Washington a new Presidentcame into office­ The lesson is that the strength of ademocracy is not so much in having a good government as innot having , getting rid of, a bad government. I want to quotefrom what President Reagan said yesterday, two short things.One, a change of name he gave to the hostages. He said 8 "From

now on, we are going to call them, prisoners of war­" So inspite of the fact that America wants peace so much, when thereis a stage of conflict, a wise President would rather call it,call a spade a spade, call it a conflict. When he sees thatthere is something unjust that has been done to his citizens,he would rather call it war of aggression on the side of theIranians rather than give it a lukewarm name­

But what is more important, I want to quote verbatim,word by word, wh$t I consider the key statement in Pres­ Reagan'sspeech yesterday 8 ~

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"Peace is the highest aspiration of the American people.We will negotiate for it. We will sacrifice for it. We willnot surrender for it."

Dear friends and guests, I speak for the Tehiya Movement

which is very unhappy with the Camp David accords and theEgyptian­Israeli agreement. I think it would be only fairif you hear this kind of criticism from thehorse's mouthp

meaning myself­ To put it in a nutshell ­ we believe thatIsrael did negotiate, did sacrifice and Sid surrender somethingthat should not have taken place in a free sovereign country,something that Pres. Reagan himself wouldn't like to have happen.

I have nothing, dear guests, against your sountry, yourpeople or even your government. I don* t 'think Egypt needsa recommendation from someone like me. It is*a great country,it is a great people and it is, we are all sure and hope ithas a great future­ I do not blame the Egyptian people or theEgyptian government. I do not criticize them. I blame my own

government. I criticize my own government, on two issues.I think that what the Israeli government surrendered in

Sinai was above and beyond the necessary steps to make co~

existence with Egypt possible, to make peace with Egypt possible.Instead. of solving the problem of this peninsula that laysbetween the two countries by surrendering all of Sinai back

to Egypt, by agreeing to the uprooting of the Israeli settlementsand towns there, Israeli prepared the background for still ano'thermilitary, Egyptian military basis that will be too dangerous forthe option of peaceful relations between the two countries.

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I believe that a solution of compromise, of co­existence♦of condominium could be achieved in Sinai for the benefit and

the future of both nations and especially for the benefit anddevelopment of this area itself.

The other issue in which I think the Israeli governmentblundered and actually made a fatal mistake is the linkagebetween the peace between Israel and Egypt and the solution ofthe problem that has to do with the citizens and the territorieswhich used to be mandatory Palestine during the British times­Or, to be more specific, the territories now held by Israelwest of the Jordan and east of the Galilee, namely the Golan

Heights­ What this linkage created, and you have beautifulnames for it, like comprehensive peace, the Palestinian problembeing the crux of the problem, etc­, what this linkage actuallycreated is an impossible situation, condition for Israel,because it created the pattern, the model, for a total retreatof Israel from all Six Day War gains . I don .t believe anybodywho is decent with himself or with his friends or with his foeswho belongs today to the Arab countries and 3rrab regimes, asthey are today, would deny my statement, that what you have inmind is a complete return of Israel to the pre­Six Day War

boundaries while at the same time, in Israel, with a few

differences, of course, and shades of opinion, there is a huge

national consensus and it includes the two big parties, thatno such total retreat can be achieved without endangeringIsrael's very existence. So instead of creating a framework

for peace, what happened is actually creating a framework fora further conflict that will be more dangerous to both parties,

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A few words about peace itself ­ Peace is wonderful but therecan be, as in any other aspect of human iife', ;a pretense ofpeace" It is not a coincidence that you insist that peace will

ahave few adjectives, we call it true peace, you say momprehensive

peace, you say just peace. In other words, there can be somethingwhich is called peace and you will not recognize as such. What

is going on now between Israel and Egypt Icm afraid is calledr.

' '1

peace but it is not really peace. I will only give a few in­

stances from. today and this last week.

We heard from ..<>..<>....., a minister, said from theEgyptian Parliament that Egypt sold Israel in 1980 $^'90m worthof oil for $35 a barrel and that the price is. going to be raisedto $45 a barrel. I believe that what is going on here, whileEgypt refuses to exchange this huge sum of money which is goingto be $700m next year to Israeli goods is actually I would saypushing Israel into the economic mud.

We know that Egypt all of a sudden cancelled Israel'sparticipation in the Book Fair in Cairo which'is going to4a keplace any day now. This is something I must say which is a slapin the face to the Israeli public opinion because we are verysensitive to books, to cultural exchanges, to­ideas like this,so if I may conclude what I have to say, we believe that areview must take place of the Israeli­Egyptian agreements, thatthey must be changed and put on a completely different footing,especially Egypt should refrain and not intervene in things thatare domestic and internal in Israel, the problems that have to do

with citizens, Arab or Jewish, inside Israel, inside the country,which1 was once Palestine in British Mandate times. This shouldbe left to the people who live here and not to be linked torelations between Israel and Egypt. Thank you.

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Dr. Abdallaht If you don't mind, before I give the floor to

Dr. Mahfouz, I would like to just point out a

small comment from one side. When Mr. Shamir asks to reviewthe agreement between Israel and Egypt, he is blowing up the .

fundamentals of democracy­ He started, and I appreciate whathe said about democracy with us and in Israel, but when an

agreement is accepted and is signed and is ratified by ototh

Parliaments, the Knesset and the Egyptian Parliament, itcannot be reviewed, the firmament, the sourcement(?) ofdemocracy is blown up.

Dr. Mahfouz 8 Mr­ Chairman, dear colleagues, since we have

arrived here in Israel, we are here for about^8 hours, and we have had two or three meetings yesterday,we ?hanged Points of view and we discussed peace and how can we

find a solution for the problems which are staying withoutsolution. I think that since the signature of the Camp David

accords and that atmosphere of confidence between two nations,Israel and Egypt and we see that the normalisation between thetwo countries is going in a good way and you. see well that we

came here with an open heart. After yesterday's discussionwith members of the Knesset and in the afternoon with GeneralDayan and after that with Mr. Shimon Peres and Gen. Bar Lev

and Mr­ Abba Eban, I think that after all these discussionsI think that we can do something together, something fruitfulfor the Problem of the Palestinian people. About the solution,I think it depends on the feelings of both sides.

After Mr. Shamir's speech, I think that from our side,Egypt8 s side, we have decided to go on the road of peace and .'

we will not stop. I think that at the end the discussion willbe taken between Palestinians and Israelis. You were brothers,

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you are brothers and you will remain brothers. So I'd liketo end my speech by thanking you for the atmosphere which you

prepared for us, which has made us feel that you are sincereand I can tell you that we are also sincere to achieve and <

arrive to a Peace, without using just peace or comprehensivePeace­ we would like to arrive at peace with the real meaningof this wordo

Mr. Gideon Hausner ­ : Mr. Speaker, Mr. Ambassador, theassociation goes back to the memorable

meeting with the Rais here in this room some years ago on hishistoric mission. I agree­fully with the main assumptions Jfboth Dr. Abdallah and the other speakers.­ However, let me

pointout. that many people still have the impression that so:

far­as Egypt is concerned, the peace with Israel is still on

some kind of probation. In other words, it has got still toestablish itself in order to become a living reality in all .

spheres and walks of life. That is why the contacts are *tilltoo much, controlled, too much restricted, while we would hope

that now,,after a Period of time, the opportunity is ripe to/establish Peace in the ordinary full sense. ...to othercountries freely would now be available.to Israel. Israel, isprepared to treat Egypt exactly on .this level, is anxious totreat Egypt exactly on this level as we treat the best of ourfriends, because it is only through that, friends from theEgyptian Parliament, that we can show the world that we mean it,that it is not some Passing phenomenon, that it is something to.state. May I also say that it is only in this manner that you .

can convince other Arab States to join the peace process. As

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long as they will be of the opinion that it is still on probation.sti11 fragile. they will certainly, especially those who areagainst the Peace Process from the beginning, will certainlytry their very best to disrupt the process­

You have addressed us on the question of the Palestinians,a well­known debate, and I'm not going to enter into details.but let me say this in one sentence­ I am sitting in theOpposition now8 however, as we recognize your obvious interestin the otters of the Palestinians, of your Arab brothers, we

expect that you will recognize our sensitivity and interest inmatters of national security­ There is little difference ofview amongst the Preponderant majority of Israelis that certaindemands concerning the Palestinians Preclude our security. Inother words, that there are certain steps which to you may seem

obvious and natural which we have the deepest conviction thatwould work very quickly both against our security, ipso factoalso against the Peace Process. And that is why on this, becausehere security means existence. we just cannot take what seems tobe the easy solution, even if it would ease matters between youand us in the immediate future.

We have got to Prove to everybody that there is no sub"stitute for Peace. that is why the door should be open much

wider than it has been so f­r, not that we are unmindful ofwhat has been done. The best Proof is your visit here. the ,

visit of your Minister of Agriculture to Israel. We are notunmindful of all of that. But we are thinking that the time hascome now really for much wider scope of Peaceful engagement thathas been mentioned before ­ the Book Fair. trade relations, on a

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mutually acceptable basis. We don't want you to buy our goodsbecause only they are Israeli. But if they are good goods t

and are available at world market prices, why should Venezuelabuy them from us and why shouldn't Egypt buy them?

Why should foreign universities be open to our visitingprofessors and. why shouldn't Egyptian universities be open on

a basis of reciprocity. We give our media, our TV and radio.,to foreign visitors to explain problems to us. Why shouldn8twe have your representatives here on our TV? Why shouldn'twe be able from time to time to appear on your news media and

represent either our achievements in various spheres, and thereare some such, or even express freely as we do here our viewson various topics, even on which we happen to disagree at themoment.

ת1 conclusion I say' that we have done a lot. But we '­

have got to do much more with that vision and courage and

daring which characterized President Sadat's coming to Israel.It now calls for a much greater effort because it is only inthis manner that we can really create a movement towards peacein this part of the world.

I hope to be able to show you tomorrow something whichis ­the hidden part of the iceberg on which Israel rests, thatis Yad Vashem, where I had the honor to accompany PresidentSadat during his visit. Maybe you will realize then that whatyou will see elsewhere in Israel is the tip of the iceberg, (

but the hidden part is the great human tragedy which gives usstrength and moral conviction to carry on with our national 1

existence, strive for security, stretching out the hand for

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Peace, as you want to do. So this is what we have got to work

on. We appreciate your coming very much and we hope, since we

want to talk more about the future than about the past, that ..

this will really announce an even better future. Thank you.

Mr. Moustafa Kamel Mourad t Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chairman, I speak, of,

course, in the name of my party, theLiberal Party of Egypt. I don't represent the Egyptian govern­ment­ The Egyptian government has so many representatives inthe delegation. I am the only Opposition member in this delega­tion so I would like to answer some of the points raised by my

colleague, Mr­ Shamir.

I think nothing stops the normal relations between Israeland Egypt but it needs your businessmen to come to Egypt tomake business, like the Americans come, the Germans come, theItalians come. It means connections between the chambers ofcommerce here and in Egypt, chambers of industry, like anynormal process. Because I am a Liberal man I'm against anyinterference by the government in business and I'm doing my

best in Egypt to change our social system to a more liberal one.The People can do everything. The government only serves them­

So I think it is your part, as parliamentarians of Israel, to .

convince the businessmen of Israel to come to Egypt. I dealin cotton. I'm one of the oldest cotton men in Egypt, readyto sell cotton and buy cotton, too. But it has to come throughthe businessmen themselves.

As far as I know, we have already imported some footstuffsfrom Israel" and I think you know that ­ eggs, beer, chocolates,other things. So nothing actually stops the commercial relationsbetween Egypt and Israel but it needs the businessmen to contacteach other.

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Petrol is sold to Israel, as it is sold to any othercountry, under the same conditions. I agree with you. Thisis a mistake of the Egyptian government not to let Israel toparticipate at the Book Fair. This is a mistake and I learnedonly here yesterday and if I would be in Cairo I would have j

opposed the government and objected because this is a sillything from my point of view. So we have to grease the gears,as I said yesterday, between the two countries because we don'texpect that after 30 years of hatred and fighting you can firideverything normal in a few months. No, it takes time­ But we

have to push it­

< The other point is, you said Israel surrendered when itwithdrew from Sinai­ Surrendered to whom? To peace, maybe yes.But if Israel does surrender to anything.. why do you have thdsimpression?

You have a democratic and civilized country here, thiscountry, you have one. And you must live in normal relationswith all of the area around you. As I said yesterday, this areais the most rich in the world, through petrol, manpower, naturalresources. So every day you are wasting, Israel is losing at1east $lm added to its gross national product. Every day you

10Be in normalizing relations, not between Egypt and Israel,between Israel and all the neighbors, you are losing $lm at leastto be added to your GNP, which you need of course­

Relations now between nations is not a matter of strength,if you have a cannon or tank and you can conquer and invade my

country. This is a very old­fashioned way of thinking, in my

Point of view because nowadays it all depends on how people have

­85 ­

confidence in each other and how much can they add to their GNP

through relations between their country and other countries. Thisis new way of politics and these are the new programs of politicalparties nowadays. How could I raise the standard of living of my

people and redistribute the national income in a lfodest, fair way

and how can I make good relations and mutual interest between my

country and the other countries­

Sadat did a good thing when he restored relations betweenEgypt and the United States which was not in good shape before .

he came to power, So the matter of surrendering or not.. it'sa matter that you are a small country really, a small State,\*r*s\t but you are a modern State, a democratic State, and youhave a good future. So don't waste time.

We heard from Dayan yesterday ifnd from Peres somethingvery encouraging really, especially Mr. Peres. I respect him

very much­ He's a very broadminded man and is a very pragmatic ^

man, and also Dayan­ Because the Palestinian organization also,your politicians have, and with us, with others, you discussed r

the problem of the PLO. Don't say that the PLO is a gang of such­and such­ Maybe some of them but not all of them­ In every party,©very organization, you always find some intelligentsia people,some People who can speak from mind­to­mine. So you have to try­to Pass these difficulties and give to Israel its normal conditinnand let Israel benefit from its intelligent people, from itsdemocratic system, to strengthen your economy, to raise yourstandard of living­ This can never be attained rfy a cannon or a

gun­ This can only be attained by peace. This is based on

cultural relations, economic relatinns, good understanding.

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1

Don't expect that you'll find people only backing your idea.,Even in your own party you will have different ideas. That'slife, very normal..

But we came here as parliamentarians. We are not pre­fessional people, we are not the administration, the government,but we represent Egypt­ So we came to tell you that we areready to take all the necessary steps so that we can attainpeace in. this area because this area as I said­ is the richestarea in the world, in a very strategic position, has everythingto devdop much more than it is now doing­ And this area is invery big danger, the danger of the Soviet Union­

So we have to finish that old chronic problem of the

Palestinians and look forward to something much more importantand much more dangerous than the conflict between the Arabs and

Israel­ So normal relations are existing but the people have towork­ From your side and from our side­ Thank you­ (applause)

Ms­ Shulamit Aloni8 Mr. Chairman, distinguished guests,colleagues. I am more than glad to be

with' you­­ I am deeply convinced that the process of peace has'reached a point of no return­ ­ Andthis is very important toremember because if it is so, letes be mature enough and bhow

mutual responsibility for our people and for the area and the.breakthrough which started three years ago should continue. We

put too many minor obstacles on our way to bring normal peacenot only between the two countries but in the Middle East. And

when I say minor obstacles, I felt sorry that you didnot stayin Jerusalem overnight, that you had to go for three hours toTel Aviv and come back because this is part of the minor obstacles,

­87 ­

We are in Jerusalem. The town will continue to be here, 10ז

matter what kind of arrangements will be made in the future­It will continue to be Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, and.

I'm bringing this up as a small example. I must admit that Ifeel so normal about the relations that I am tempted to bring up

normal questions which are discussed usually among parliamentar­ians, although I know we won't discuss them, like civil liberties,how you deal with minority problems, status of women, birthcontrol, religious organization and establishment and itsrelation with the State. But I know it is not yet time todiscuss and what I would like to ask, I agree with you that thequestions of the Palestinians is a crucial question in ourrelations, not only in our relations but in the S Middle East.But because it is a crucial question and because all sides,including Arab countries, but mainly the Palestinians and

ourselves, are in a kind of a trauma. We have to look for many

options to solve the problem.

I don't know how aware you are that in 196? the Israelgovernment decided not to annex the West Bank and the peoplethere are Jordanian by law. Still there is the Jordanian law

in the West Bank. So most of the Palestinians, all of thosewho live on the West Bank, are Jordanians. Most of the peoplein Jordan are Palestinians and even in the PLO covenant it iswritten! one entity, one people, one task, one destiny.

Many of the Israelis, I would say that the majority ofthe Israelis feel very strongly that there shouldn't be a thirdState here in this area and because of it we are bringing, many

Israelis/ I am here in the Parliament a minority of one for the

­88 ­

time being, I think in the next elections it will change, butwhen I say "we" I mean the majority of the people feel that,

the question can be solved through and with Jordan as answerfor /the Palestinians, inJordan,; together. It's one of the .

opti­ons anyhow and what I couldn't understand, maybe you can ­

help us, why your government opposed this kind of an option?Because what we read here, after the meetings between the.

leaders of the Labour Party and your govanment, the answerwas not to involve Jordan.

Pur colleague was just talking about the threat of theSoviet Union­ They are coming from the north through Pakistan, ?

Afghanistan, they are coming from the south in Ethiopia. Egypt,Israel, Jordan belong to the western world. Why not press on­

Jordan to come into the Peace Process together with us and Egypt?The Israelis are all for it, the majority of the people. Egyptis a ­. partyin the Peace Process now and its voice ss veryimportant. So what I would like­ to hear from you, why you .

don't agree to this kind of negotiations to. start Jifrom the very ,

beginning. I know it is for Hussein to decide but your stand;Point of view, and pressures, might be a great help and it is agood option to continue the Peace process in this area and maybe

with other countries, as well. Thank you.

Dr' Abdallah, I would like to tell you that you are most welcome

to Egypt and you can discuss with our colleagues.... 'about the family control and all the social problems, Con­

cerning minorities, we don't *ave a minorities, problem.. We 8real Egyptians and no matter what the division? is of any Egyptian.

­89 ­

Yesterday we were discussing an issue which was raised by us ­

concerning the Der el Sultan Mr. .,­ who is one of the leading. leaders of the Coptic Christians in Egypt, in fact we told him

it's our problem before it's being your problem because we feelthat what hurts the Egyptian Copts hurts every Egyptian. Idon't think there is any minority problem.

As far as the Jordan option, we are really mommitted toCamp David and to the full implementation of Camp David.

Nobody refused to invite Jordan but the conception is different­I would say that at this stage the Palestinians through theautonomy process have to say, to give what they want, and afterthat Jordan, because Jordan must be involved ±n the process, itmust be a global, comprehensive process­ In Bshis case, Jordanmust Join us. But if the Palestinians, as we 4a id yesterday,through a kind of coordination or coexistence with Jordan,whatever, it is not our problem­ We are not mandated to speak.

in the name of the Palestinians, and Pres. Sadat made that clearseveral times. All that we are doing is pave the way for the ­

Palestinians to express themselves. So the matter of the con­ception, if it is a substitute for the Palestinians" way tospeak, this is what we refuse, because we have to give Jbhem

the opportunity to speak about themselves, about their aspirations.After that, we are mandated to decide for them. We are a

partner in all that is going on in the area because as ourcolleague said, there is a threat for your country and for mine­We belong to the same area and the future of this area is ourfuture, your future, the future of your children and theEgyptian children. So we are bound together to see in a globalapproach any kind of threat to the area. So we can't separate,all the neighbors must participate in the final settlement­

­90. ­

But we are committed and as I said before we have signedand ratified an agreement­ We in Egypt have determined tocontinue the way and to implement this agreement 0 And concerningthe Palestinians, a temporary arrangement and, after that, no

matter what will be the issue in which all the parties willagree upono .

Dr<> Adel. AbdEzz 8 Mr­ Speaker, Mr­ Chaimman, in the first placesI would like really to point out as i have

spoken yesterday that we do accept the idea of offering securityto everybody P We want security as well. Every person seekssecurity in his life­ But I do believe that security in timeof war differs so much from security.in time of peace and thisshould be taken into consideration­

I do believe that Israel is surrounded by Arab countriesand I think that the best way to secure Israel is to have gdod

relations with her neighbors 0 This is a fact.In the second place, I would like to answer the question

of Mr­ Moshe Shamir because he said he criticized his government,, , surrendered

and he believes that his government rendered efo Egypt, in fact,I say that I don'thave' 'the legal right to prevent him from

criticizing his government but if he allows me, I can tell him

frankly that Israel behaved as a civilized country, accordingto international resolutions and regulations and I don't believethat any one in Egypt would have accepted anything else­ Everycountry has its own rights and every person is ready to defendhis own land ­ Thafs why I do believe that your government hasdone it in a perfect way. We didn"t want to discuss anythingwith respect to the peace treaty between Egypt and. Israel because

1

/

­ 91 ­

we know very well that we have no problems with each other what­soever­ This problem is finished.

But of course, I don't know sxactly if you have told usabout what you called the "cold" peace. I don't believe thatthere is a hot peace and a cold peace but I would say, why didwe find this terminology, normalization? Why did we call itnormalization? We lived, I was 15 years old when the war

exploded between the Arab countries and Israel. Thirty yearswar, destruction, hatred, everything you can imagine. Can you:

imagine that you can push a button and. then everything will be

normalized within one or two minutes? No sir. I do believe

that it will come , slowly but surely. We must have patience.We must try to change our mentalities, our thinking about thewhole problem. That's why if we say it is a cold peace, why

do all these gentlemen and. the nice lady come from Egypt toIsrael? For what? Do you think that it is if we were notconvinced completely with peace, would it have been possiblefor us to leave our country and come to you as friends, justtrying to discuss, to negotiate, to express our views, justtry to convince you that our own ideas, just try to hear every­thing from you in order that we can achieve peace, peace forEgypt, for Israel, even afterwards for the whole area in theMiddle East. And once we are able to achieve this peace in theMiddle East, I can asaure you that this would be the bestsecurity for the State of Israel. This is my own opinion aboutthis matter.

That's why really I'm talking from the bottom of my heart,nr>t as a politician or as a meotber of this delegation, but as a

human be ing , as a university professor who tfhinks always beforehe takes any decision.

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In respect to international trade, to commerce, what canwe say? It is a normal thing. I can declare from here my own

opinion about the whole thing. No discrimination ggainst Israeland no privilege to Israel. Normal relationship. The relationsbetween Egypt and Israel in respect to foreign trade could be

exactly like the relations with Switzerland, Great Britain,with any other country all over the world­ the USA. We nevertry to give Israel a special privilege and we don't ask Israelto give Egypt a special privilege in this respect.

So I de believe, let the time pass and afterwards you

will see that everything will go in a perfect way. Moreover,I would like to talk about the problem of our friends and ourneighbors, the Palestinians. I don't believe that Egypt oneday said that we are ready to talk in the name of the Palestinians.We said we want the people themselves to have their own decision,self­determination, whether they accept afterwards to go toJordan or any other place, it is not our problem. But what we

say, and according to democracy!, democracy should not be' onlyfor the Egyptians or the Israelis, democracy should be for allpeople and for the Palestinians themselves. Thafs why we saythey have to choose their way.

If they want to join Jordan afterwards, then we havearotHng to dowith the problem. The most important thing is we

want to achieve peace. In order to achieve peace, please try'tosatisfy everybody, up to a certain minimum, in ,order that we

all could be satisfied and live together in peace. Thank you.(applause)

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Mr" Uri Avneri 8 Mr. Chairman, Mr. Speaker­ In Hebrew"

Sheli is the initials for the wordsShalom LsYisraelt Peace for Israel­ I'm very happy in any

meeting with Egyptians because I was a soldier in the Israeliarmy on the Egyptian front in 1948. I was wounded in the battleof Faluga)?(­ Maybe we wounded each other in that battle, Iknow that Gamal Nasser was also wounded in that battle.

I could made a very short speech by saying that every timeMr­ Shamir says "no" I say "yes." And everywhere Mr­ Shamir says"yes" I say "no­'0 All along the line" practically on every singlesubject. But especially about the subject of the Palestinians.In spite of the fact that we are in extreme opposition in thisHouse, we voted for the Camp David agreement, for the peaceagreement­ More so, I could say that four years ©go, in thelast elections of Israel, the only party which took part in the>elections which put forward a program on which Camp David was

based was our party, because we said Give back all the occupiedareas, in 196?, for formal peace with all the Arab peoples­We believe that Camp D^vid is not only as such, it's very­. an

example for the :peace agreement which we have to make with theother Arab States and especially with the Palestinian people.

I'm not very impressed by the word .consensus' becauseone day before Mr­ Sadat in his coming visit to Jerusalemwould have taken a poll in this House and sais Who is for keepingall of Sinai in the hands of Israel? You would have a huge con­­

sensus of at least 110 members out of 120 who iiould say we shouldkeep Sinai forever­ But coming here, by making this unique

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historic dramatic gesture, Mr. Sadat completely changed the '

attitude of the Egyptian people and I do believe that if andwhen such actions will be forthcoming from the PalestineLiberation Organization, the same will happen about the Palestin­ian problem in Israeli public opinion. And the same way thatwe have now an Egyptian flag here in the Knesset which would

have ­ been incrddible four years ago, we shall have here a

Palestinian.flag when the time comes, and I believe the timewill come very soon.

I do belong to a ­ party which is not afraid of the PLO

and not afraid of the idea of a Palestinian State on the West

Bank and the Gaza Strip. I do believe that it will come about.But it is a process­ In the same way that the Egyptian­Israelipeace took time to take hold, and to mature, the relationshipbetween Israel and the Palestinian people, which is much more

difficult because the roots go much farther back and the complex

is much more complicated, the same will happen­

'' I belong. to a group which has official contacts with Jthe

PLO for six years now and I belong to a Zionist party ­ SheM ­I want. to make this quite clear . * Sheli is not only a patrioticbut also a Zionist party in Israel. Mr. Yasser Arafat, two

weeks ago in the Lebanon weekly, Al Hawadess(?) , for­ efhe fir­sttime officially declared that we and the PLO are conducting adialogue, with the Sheli party, which is a Zionist party. £think this is another step forward in this direction. ;­

In conclusion, I think we must look not only to the futureof tomorrow but also to the future of the day after tomorrow.I think the creation of a comprehensive peace, including peace

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between Israel and the Palestinian State, the West Bank and Gaza,

is only a Part of a bigger outlook of unification of the Middle

East, of creating a Middle Eastern Common Market, a Middle

Eastern political alliance, a Middle Eastern security arrange­metfnt. And I look forward to a day which I believe all of uS Wi11

witness where the immense resources of Egypt, of Saudi Arabia,of the Arab Gulf States and Israel and Iraq and ftordan and thePalestinian State we will all pull together to change the facenot only of the Middle East but actually the power relationshipsof the whole world, becausethis will be a new global power andI think we should all work for that­ Thank you. (applause)

Dr­ Mahf ouz1 (Summing up) Thank you very much for giving me

the floor and I shall be brief­ *then the firstspeaker today brainstormed us, Mr. Shamir, and brought ourmeeting to a fruitful end because the purpose of this visit .

from the Egyptian Parliamentary group (bo the Knesset is to tryto exchange ideas and to find out differences in concepts and

realities of life in this country and £o find out, generateideas, how to overcome the obstacles­ It's not to negotiateand allow me, Mr. Speaker, to quote you, and not to criticizeeach other, because it's in the daily life routine of everycouple, Israeli and Egyptian, there are differences that arisefrom the practice of life and there are good intentions alwaysto overcome these difficulties.

We don't expect that normalization between nur two

countries will be without differences and difficulties but we

are ready to overcome these difficulties with the spirit thatPeace is the ultimate goal. There is no other option for us, fOr

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you, than Peace. We had enough bloodshed. We lost almost100,000 people on the battle_field. You lost also a large .

number.. .The Palestinians have lost, the Jordanians have lost.Not only Mves. But we lost very. precious time of developmenttoo. And this is another point which I want to stress because

.* politicalthe more the/negotiators linger about, the more. valuable timewill be lost, for development and for achieving a comprehensivepeace.

To Mr . Shamir I must address myself and tell him that ; .

maybe his explanation to Pres. Reagan's speech was not the one

which the President meant. You do not surrender to peace.v This is your own desire to surrender and this is not a surrender.

When you accept peace it does not mean that you surrender. Peaceis a compromise between what you think and what the other partythinks.

When you surrender for a humanitarian cause, it is anhonor. This is a surrender to honor because you are honoring

a humanitarian cause. But when you surrender to a gun, thisis a shame, and nobody accepts this. There is a difference "

between surrender to a humanitarian causes and surrender to gunsandatom. bombs.<'

, We have arrived at a point to discover that there aredifferences in our concepts and your concepts as regards normali­

^ nation and security. These are the two burning issues in our:

relations. I think I will start with the security problem.The security problem, we understand it from what we heard

here, is a matter of kilometers, of width and breadth, and how

the army would move freely and securely, and secure the safetyof the people. We don*t think that way. We think that security

i

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is a sensation which one can achieve with his neighbor. I don'tconsider that life is a good life if I sleep with my wife witha gun inbetween us. This is not a life. And security can neverbe achieved with a big arsenal and atom bomb and big army. Thisis a momentary type of security. It's a false type of security.But security can only b94chieved by love, by cooperation, byunderstanding each other, and the method to achieve this isdemocracy and to have an interchange of ideas, to come to meetpeople and allow people to tell you their opinions. And you

should not be amazed at the everlasting effects of such meetingsbecause the meeting ends in an hour and then afterwards you go

home and think about what happened. Maybe the effects will come

in a few days or a few months or a few years, but security, inour concept, is love, cooperation and understanding. It's nothaving an arsenal, an army or a base here and there. ,

But we also respect your point of view because you have1

lived through the same period of hostility as we did and theonly Way you have achieved some degree of security is to have 1

people running in the streets with guns on their shoulders.

Our concept as regards the Palestinian issue, we thinkthat without the Palestinian issue being solved, we will neverhave stability in the area. This stability is not a stabilitybetween Jordan, Israel and Egypt, but it is the stability ofthe Middle East, that's the major issue, We want the MiddleEast a stable area, a secure area, that's our concept ofsecurity. All of us have to share in that. Israel cannot, thereis no stability in the area without Israel efharing in it. But

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how can we ,bring Israel, Egypt and all the other parties intor

this domain of security without solving the Palestinian issue?We are linked to the Palestinians by religious ties, by bloodties and by strategic ties. Egypt has been invaded nine timesduring its history from the East. So we consider the stabilityof that area a fundamental part of our strategy, our security.

;Right­ Where do. we move from that point? That's why

ladies and gentlemen, always when­we talk, we talk about thePalestinian issue. Normalization, as one'bf my colleagues said,we had a long history of hostility, of JO years. And. peopleare talking in Israel about turning a page to get normalizationin the way we all hope for it. .. ; ­ . '.

It takes time. There are things which have to be studiedthoroughly, especially when itis related. to human relations.When it comes to commerce, as Mr­ Mourad said, it's very easy.If you have goods and we want the goods* we buy, according tothe international price. There is no problem­ But when itcomes to human relations, one has to be a little bit sceptical.

You have here two types of communities, a Europeancommunity and an Oriental community. We are in Egypt a totallyOriental community. We have our own problems, with our own

concepts. So we have to be given time to generate the methodo­logy of cooperation which fits our situation. But there is ;

nothing against normalization­ Normalization is a must. It isthe eventual end­product of the entire peace movement.

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Mr. Speaker, I must end my intervention by saying thatwe have to think together to find solutions. We have to overcome

the obstacles. We have agreed to respect the Camp David agree­ments: and to work through it. ,

We should not stop at that level. We bhould think of J

further meetings and we should always bring into discussions,into frank discussions problems and we should not hide nurfeelings nor hide from the problems. We have to face theproblems.

politicalThe PLO exists. You cannot deny the/presence of the PLO.

You cannot deny that they have to play a role. You cannot deny

the fact that, I wouldn't say the majority because I didn't have

a consensus of opinion who are with the PLO in the Palestinians,in the Gaza Strip and on the West Bank. I can't say how many

there are but they exist.In order to solve the problem, the PLO has to play a role.

What is that role? We have to think about it. We have to startdialogues with the PLO and to see exactly how much they can add

rather than neglect that issue from the discussions. Thank you.(applause)Mr.Ya^uri t Mr. Chairman, dear colleagues, distinguished guests.

I would like to welcome you. I am representativeof Yaad, a party in the Knesset and I would only like to saylet's hope for a good future. Thank you. (applause(

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