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GLOBALFEMINISMS

COMPARATIVECASESTUDIESOFWOMEN’SACTIVISMANDSCHOLARSHIP

SITE:NIGERIA

TranscriptofDr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi

Interviewer:RonkeOlawale

Location:Lagos,NigeriaDate:November4th,2019

UniversityofMichigan

InstituteforResearchonWomenandGender1136LaneHallAnnArbor,MI48109-1290

Tel:(734)764-9537

E-mail:um.gfp@umich.eduWebsite:http://www.umich.edu/~glblfem

©RegentsoftheUniversityofMichigan,2017

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Dr.AbiolaAkiyode-AfolabistudiedlawattheObafemiAwolowoUniversity,IleIfe.ShereceivedanLLMfromtheNotreDameSchoolofLawintheUSandaPhDfromtheSchoolofOrientalandAfricanStudies(SOAS)at theUniversityofLondonwhereshespecialized inwomen’s peace and security studies. In 2002 she established the Women AdvocatesResearch and Documentation Center (WARDC) a not-for-profit organization focused onmaternalandreproductivehealthadvocacy,gender-basedviolence,andsocialjustice.SheisontheboardofWestAfricaNetworkforPeacebuilding(WANEP)andtheNigerianWomen'sTrustFund.WANEPisaregionalpeacebuildingorganizationestablishedin1998inresponsetocivilwarsinWestAfrica,whileWomen’sTrustFundwasfoundedtoaddresstheproblemofunderrepresentationofwomeningovernanceandgenderinequality,moregenerally.Dr.Akiyode-AfolabialsoteachesInternationalHumanitarianLawattheUniversityofLagos.RonkeOlawaleisaPhDCandidateinSocialWorkandAnthropologyattheUniversityofMichigan.Broadlyspeakingsheisinterestedinculture,care,andinfectiousdisease;deathanddying,andmeaning-making;kinshipandchildwelfare/wellbeing;andintergenerationalcare.Herdissertationexploresthesocialandculturalcontextinwhichthe2013-2016EbolaVirusDisease(EVD)epidemicoccurredinLiberia.

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RonkeOlawale:Okay,let’sstartnow.GoodmorningDoctor.Iwanttoappreciateyouforparticipatinginthisprojectandalsotobeginbyintroducingmyself.MynameisRonkeOlawale.I’matthefinishingpointofmyPhDattheUniversityofMichiganandI’m studying social work andmedical anthropology, specifically working on howEbolaimpactedsociallifeinLiberia.Pleaselet’sstartbyyouintroducingyourselfandtellingmehowyouwouldliketobeaddressedbutonceyoumentionyournameIwouldalsolikeyoutospellitsothatthereisnomisrepresentation.Thankyou.Dr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi:I’mDr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi.I’malecturerattheUniversityofLagos,I’malsoafoundingdirectorofthewomenadvocatesresearchanddocumentationcenter.RO:Thankyou,buthowwouldyouliketobeaddressed?AA:Dr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi.RO:Alright,thankyousomuch.Okay,sothisinterviewisstartingrightnow.TodayisMonday, November the 4th, 2019 and I’m right herewithDr. Abiola Akiyode-Afolabi for the Global Feminisms Project. This interview is part of the GlobalFeminismsProject,amulti-siteinternationalprojectsponsoredbytheUniversityofMichigan. Our goal in undertaking these oral histories is to create and preserveconversations with women whose scholarships and activism has contributed towomen’s rights activism as that is broadly conceived or with women whosescholarshiporactivismhascontributedincriticalwaysthatareimportanttoissuesthataffectwomen.Sotodaywe’llbespendingapproximatelyonehourormoreasmuchaswecangetoraslongaswecangoonbroadtopicsaboutthisproject.Letmethankyou for accepting toparticipate,we’ll startoutbyaskingyou to introduceyourself,tellmeyourname,pleasedospellitbecauseIdon’twanttomisrepresentyourname,andalsohowyouwouldliketobeaddressed.Thankyou.AA: Thank you verymuch. I’m Dr. Abiola Akiyode-Afolabi (spells it). I’m the foundingdirectoroftheWomenAdvocatesResearchandDocumentationcenter(WARDC)andI’malsoalecturerattheUniversityofLagos.RO:Thankyousomuch,buthowwouldyouliketobeaddressed?AA:IwouldliketobeaddressedasDr.AbiolaAkiyode-Afolabi.

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RO:Thankyousomuch.Letmejuststartoutbyaskingyoutogivemeabackgroundaboutyourlife.So,asyouthinkaboutwhereyouaretoday,howyouwoulddepictthejourneythatbroughtyoutothisdesk.AA:Wellit’sreallyaverylongjourneyandjustlikethelifeofeverywomansoitcouldalsobeaverythoughtfuljourneywhereyouhavetopickuplessonsasyougrowupandlessonsdefineyourlifeandyourattitudetowhatyouseearoundyouandhelpintermsofbuildinginstinctstobeabletorespondtoissuesthatarefundamentaltoyouandalsofundamentaltootherpeoplearoundyou.IgrewupfromanaverageNigerianfamily.MyfatherwasanengineerwiththeoldnationalelectricalpowerauthoritycalledNEPAandsomeaningthatwehadtotraveltosomanyplacesbecausehewasbeingtransferredfromthenorthtothesouthsowehadablendoflivingalmostalloverthecountrybecausewehadtomovewithhimtoalltheplacesthathehadtogoto.Mymomhappenstobeatrader,someaningthatshehadtochangeherspaceofbusinesseverytimethatwehadtomove.So,alongtheline,IwasborninKwarastate1,whichisIlorin2;MymomisfromEdostate3,fromBenin4,whilemyfathercomesfromAbeokuta5inOgunstate6.ButIwasborninKwaraState,inIlorin.So,which,toalargeextent,showsthattheblendinNigeriathathasgivenmearootfromthenorthernpartofNigeria,fromthesouth-southpartofNigeriaandfromthesouthwest.Ithinkalsomylifewentinthatdirection.WewereinitiallylivinginIlorin,thenwemovedfromIlorintoOsogbo7.MyfatherthenmovedtoKaduna8andotherplaces.ButwhileweweregrowinguptherearealotofthingsIcanremember,oneofthethingswasalsothefact thatwas at the time thatNigeriawas trying to liberate itself fromanti-corruptionpractices.Theone I can rememberclearlywaswhen Iwasaroundsixyearsold,whenMuritalaMuhammed9wasthePresidentofthecountryandhisfightwasseriouslyagainstanti-corruptionandIremembermyfatherusedtotellmethatasweweregrowingup,wemustknowthatwehaveadutytomakeNigeriaabetterplace.Isawhimraisingvoices

1 KwaraisastateinWesternNigeria.TheYorubatribeisitsprimaryethnicgroup,buttherearesignificantpopulationsofNupe,Bariba,andFulani.(“Kwara.”Britannica.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www-britannica-com.proxy.lib.umich.edu/place/Kwara)2IlorinisthecapitalofKwaraState(Ibid.)3EdoStateisastateinNigeria,eastofLagos.Itismadeupoffourmajorethnicgroups:theBini,Esan,Owan,andEstako.(“EdoState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_State)4BeninisthecapitaloftheEdostate.(Ibid.)5AbeokutaisthecapitalandlargestcityintheOgunState.(“OgunState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogun_State)6OgunStateisastateinsouthwesternNigeria.(Ibid.)7OsogboisacityinNigeriaandthecapitaloftheOgunState(“Osogobo.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osogbo)8KadunaisthecapitalofKadunaStateinnorth-westernNigeria,ontheKadunaRiver.(“Kaduna.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaduna)9MurtalaMuhammedwasaNigerianArmyGeneralturnedHeadofStateofNigeriafrom1965untilhisassassinationin1976.(“MurtalaMuhammed.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murtala_Mohammed)

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againstanti-corruptionpracticesandIthinkformethat’swhereIdrewmyhumanrightsinklingfrom,seeingwhatmyfatherwasdoingatthattime,goingtospeakoutwhereotherpeoplechosenottosayanythingwhentheyseethingsbeingdoneinaverywrongmanner.ItcouldalsobebecausehewasatIbadanPolyand10hewasaStudentUnionpresident,somaybe that contributed tohis interests in fighting for justice.And I think forme that’swhereIpickedmyownlifestylefrom.Asakid,Iwasveryactive,andIwasalwaysveryinterestedinleading.IrememberthatIwasintoalotofsportingactivitiesasayounggirl.It’slikewhenyougoforanInter-HouseSportsandaparticularnamejustkeptringing:100meters,200meters,400meters,somynamejustkeptcomingup.Iwasalsointerestedinthingslikedebate,quizcompetition,soIwasoneoftheveryfewyounggirlsatthattimewhohadtheopportunitytobegintospeakaboveawhisperwhilegrowingup.So,bythetimeIgottosecondaryschool,thatcharacteristicbecamemuchmoreprominentinmylifeandIstartedaskingquestionsfrommyteachersandbeingveryinquisitiveaboutthewaythingswerehappeningaroundme.SowhenIwasinform3whichwasthe3rdyearinthesecondaryschool,wehadsomeyouthcorpswhowerepostedtotheschooltosupporttheteachersandIrealizedthatonceinawhiletheywouldtakesomegrownupgirlsinclassandtheywouldjusttakethemawayandaskustogocutgrassoutsideandallofthat.Onaparticularday,Imobilizedmyentirematestosay“No,wearenotclearaboutwhatthisisallabout,whyshouldtheybetakingabout5girlsawayeverytimewhenwehaveclassesandallofthat?”AndwhilemobilizingthemIclimbedaclassdesktryingtotalktothem,probably Idid thatbecauseofwhat Ihaveseen inmoviesordramasbut forwhateverreason,Iclimbedthetableandformethatwaslikeastage,andasifIhadamicrophoneinfrontofme,as if Iwasmobilizingpeople to takeaction.So, Iwas telling them“No,wecannottoleratethisanymore.Weneedtostopthisconduct, it isnotrightfortheyouthcorpswhoareourteacherstokeepgoingawayeveryweekwithourclassmates,wedon’tknowwhatthey’retakingthemfor.Weneedtotelltheschool;weneedtotelltheschoolauthorities.”Ithinkinthateuphoria,thestudentswerebangingtheirdesks,everyonewassaying“yes,yes!”Asifitwasacampaign.Itbecamelikealargegroupofpeoplemakingnoise,sothentheprincipaloftheschoolsteppedintotheclassroom.Thentheyfoundme,caughtmeinaction,standingontopofthedeskandaddressingmymates.Theyaskedmeto step down and followhim to his office. Nowwhen I got to his office, he gaveme asuspension for misconduct. He didn’t allowme to explain why, he didn’t allowme toexplainwhatIwastryingtopassacross.So,IlefttogohomeandwhenIgottomyparents,my father asked what happened and I explained to them what happened. They said,“climbingonyourdeskwaswrong,butdidyourprincipalallowyoutoexplainthereasonwhyyoudidwhatyoudid?”andIsaid“no”sohesaid“okay,inthemorningweneedtogo

10ThePolytechnic,Ibadan,isaninstitutiondedicatedtohigherlearninginIbadaninOyoState,Nigeria.Itwasfoundedin1970andaimstoprovideitsstudentswithanalternativehighereducationtouniversities–onethatemphasizestheacquisitionoftechnicalskill.(“ThePolytechnic,Ibadan.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Polytechnic,_Ibadan)

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backtohim,weneedtoexplaintohimthatthesuspensionisprobablynottheresponsetowhatyoudid.”So,Iwentback,andtheprincipalsaid,“Ohwedidn’tknowthatthatwaswhathappened.”Hethenallowedmebacktoschoolthesecondday,theythensetupapanel of inquiry intowhat happened. Theywere able to find out that the youth corpsmemberswereactuallytakingtheoldergirlsinclassoutforsomesexualmisconductandallofthat.So,theypunishedtheNYSC,11andIthinktheyactuallyremovedthemfromtheschool.Andformethatreallyhelpedintermsofcreatingme,makingmeunderstandthatyoudon’thavetokeepquietwhenyouseethingswrong,thatyoucanactuallyfightforjustice andwin. Also, that in a bid to fight for justice you have to use the appropriatemethod.ThemethodthatIusedcould’vejeopardizedtheintention.So,Ilearnedaboutthatatage13,butthegoodthingaboutthatwasthefactthatinaschoolwherethere’sacultureofsilence,inaway,Iwasabletousethattobreakthesilence.So,peoplealsoknowthatwhenthingshappen,theycaneithertalkaboutitandthattheprincipalwouldalsobetheretobeable torespond to them.So, I startedgettingwithin theschool,when therewerethingsthatwerenotgoingwell,peoplefeltconfidenttowalktomeandsay“doyounoticethis?”,youknow,asakid,becauseIalsogotthevoice--theears--oftheprincipal.So,Iwouldquicklygoandtellhim,youknow,“thetoiletshavebeeninastate”andallofthat.So,IbecamelikeasmallGaniFawehinmi12campusandbythetimeIgottothenextyear, Ibecame the school debater just because of being able to findmy voice. So Iwas beingrecommended to do debates for school and all of that and I remember that we wereactuallyat that timenot talkingonlyabout issues thatarenotreal,we’re talkingaboutissuesofyellowjournalism;we’retalkingaboutissuesofapartheidinAfrica,we’retalkingaboutissuesofcapitalpunishment,we’retalkingaboutsexeducationinschoolsandthoseissueswerethencontemporary.Theywereissuesthatwereverystrongforayoung14yearoldtodealwith,butwewerereadingandourteacherswerehelpingus,weweregoingforthosedebatesandIrememberthatonedaythenoldOyoStatedebateandIwastheleaddebateratthatlevelandforme,havingthatexperiencegavemestrongerinterestinwantingtocontributetosociety.Leavingthesecondaryschool,Ibecameaschoolprefect,and while being a school perfect I brought into the school a lot of innovation and Irememberitwaswhenwewantedtobeelected,normallywhattheydoinschoolistojustappoint,maybethebeststudentsandallofthat.Iwenttomeettheprincipalandinsistedthatinsteadweshouldhaveanelection.So,forthefirsttimewehadanelectioninthatsecondaryschool,whichwasthenOsogboGrammarSchool.So,bythetimeIgottotheuniversity,IwasalreadycutouttocontinuedoingwhatIwasdoingatthattime.So,when

11 TheNationalYouthServiceCorpswassetupbytheNigeriangovernmenttoinvolveNigeriangraduatesinnationbuildinganddevelopment.(“NationalYouthServiceCorps.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Youth_Service_Corps) 12 GaniFawehinmiwasaNigerianauthor,publisher,philanthropist,socialcritic,experiencedhumanandcivilrightslawyer,politician,andSeniorAdvocateofNigeria.(“GaniFawehinmi.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gani_Fawehinmi)

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Igottotheuniversity,oneofthethingsIsawonthefirstday,orthesecondday,thefirstweekIenteredObafemiAwolowoUniversity--GreatIfe,wasthattherewasastudentunionelection. So, wewere all there, JAMB-ites13 walking around and I got to the faculty ofeducationandIrealizedthattheywerevoting.So,wewerewatching,justobservingtheirvotesbecausewedidn'thavetherighttovotebecausewejustcameinbyaweek.So,thenextthingwesawwassomestudentsjustcameinandtheycarriedtheballotbox,threwit,scatterediteverywhere,theyranofftheplace.Iwaslike“Whatishappeninghere?”SoI went back to my room in annoyance because I had a great dream picking ObafemiAwolowoUniversitybecauseitwasoneofthebestuniversitiesatthattime,theyusedtocallitGreatIfe,soIwentbacktomyroomIpickedupmypen,asaJAMB-itehavingspentjustoneweekinschool,Iwroteanarticle“TheGreatIfethatIUsedtoKnow.”Andinthatarticle,IdepictedmydreamabouttheUniversityandcameupwiththeconclusionthatwhat Isawwasdisappointingandthat itshouldn’tbedone inanysociety that is ideal.Peoplehavearighttovoteandnobodyhasarighttodestructthevotingprocesses.So,Ipostedit.IthinkitwasapagedocumentandIpasteditaroundthecampusbymyself.So,peoplestartedreading it inthemorningandtheywerewondering“Whois this?”andIwrote that I’m a JAMB-ite. Theywere like, “Who is this JAMB-ite?Why should you beinterestedinschoolpolitics?”So,becauseofthat,IgotalotofpeopletrytofindmeandcametomyroomtoinvitemetojoinProgressiveSchoolAssociation.IdecidedtojointhethenMarxistgroup,whichwascalledtheLiberalMilitants.TheMarxistgroupwasbasicallylookingathowtorespondtoalotofissuesoncampus.Itwasastudents’movementthathadawholelotofpeoplewho,likeFemiFalana14andallofthosewhohadpassedthroughtheprocessbefore.So,Ijoinedthem,andIstartedtalkingtothemabouthowtomaketheUniversityabetterplaceandIrememberthat,withintheperiodofIthinkayear,IbecametheSecretaryGeneralofthemovement.OneofthegoodthingsIcanrememberaboutthatmovementisthatthemovementallowsustoreadalotaboutawholelotofthingsfromtheMarxistperspectiveabout the stateof capital, how theeconomyof the societywillgrow,andwhycapitalismisnotsupportingthegroupsofNigeriaasacountryandthefactthatcapitalismisadoomedprocessthat’sactuallygoingtomakelifemoredifficultforthepoor.It’sgoingtoenrichthefewpeoplewhoareinapositionofpowerandthatthebestwaytoresolveissuesaroundeconomicgrowthistobringtheeconomyinthehandsofthepeople,sothatpeoplearetheonesmanagingit.AndIfoundthattheoryveryinteresting.Igotinvolvedinthattheory,andwetalkaboutitandtrytogetasmanystudentsaspossibleto join the movement. My third year, we were supposed to run for elections and the

13JAMB-iteisanacronymgiventostudentsseekingadmissionintoatertiary-levelinstitution.ThenamecomesfromtheJointAdmissionsandMatriculationsBoard(JAMB),whichisaNigerianentranceexaminationforfurtherhighereducation.(“JointAdmissionsandMatriculationBoard.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Admissions_and_Matriculation_Board) 14 FemiFalanaisaNigerianlawyerandhumanrightsactivist.(“FemiFalana.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femi_Falana)

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movementthendecidedthatIshouldrunandIsaid“NoIwouldjustliketo-”becauseifyoumeetmeonthewayyou’renotlikelytothinkI’manactivistbecausemylookdoesnotdepictsomebodywhoisconfrontationalorwhoisanactivist.Ihadalittlebitofagentlemienandso Iwasreallynot interested., Iwasnotcomfortablebeing in the ideologicalbackground,ratherthanbeingthefaceofthemovement.Theysaid“No,”andIsaid“Why?”Theysaid“becausetherehasneverbeenawomanwhohasrunforthatpositionbefore,”andtheythoughtthatIhadenoughpedigreetobeabletorunforthatpositionasaPublicRelationsofficeroftheStudents’UnionbecauseatthattimethatwaslikethemouthpieceandatthatpointintimetheStudents’UnionwasthebackboneofsomeofthemovementsthatweusedtoseeinNigeriaatthattime.So,meaningthatasaPublicRelationsOfficerofObafemiAwolowoUniversity,you’llbespeakingwithalotofmedia,you’llbetheonetobethevoiceofthestudents.So,Iwasalittlebitreluctant,butthemovementrulewasthatwhenyouhavebeenaskedtodosomethingyoudon’tsayno.Itwasacollectivedecisionsoyoucanonlydowhatthemovementaskedyoutodo.So,IstartedcampaigningandIrememberthatbecauseIwasawoman,andIthinkthat’swheremyconsciousnessaboutthedifferenceofbeingamanandawomanactuallydevelopedfrom.IthoughtIhadallthecapacitytoengage,buttherewassomethingmissing.Irealizedthatpeoplewerelookingatme, still yet, asawoman.Nowthemovementwas trying toaddress thatpatriarchalthinkingbysayingyouputyourselfout,letusletpeopleknowthatwealsohavewomenwhohaveavoice,whoareintelligent,whocandobetterthanmeninthatposition.But,youknow,dealingwithsocietytheyreallyfoundmeverydifferent.So,IstartedwithasloganandIthinkitwasLeonTrotsky15whosaid,“Wheretraditionislacking,astrikingexamplebecomesnecessary.”So,Iputthatupinaposterthatinthiscampus,thereisatraditionthat’slacking,andthattraditionisthatyoudon’teverfindwomeninthatkindofposition.Theyonly findwomen in theVicePresidency andTreasurer, that Iwant tobreak thattraditionsoweneedastrikingexampleandthatI’llbetheexampletoshowthatit’snotaboutbeingaman to takeup thatpositionand interestingly, that rosea lotof interestamongstudents.So,therewerealotofquestions,youknowonmypostersyousee,“canawomandoit?”“WhosaysawomancanbethePRO?”and“Willyounotrunawaywhenthepolicecomewithgunsandallofthat?”“Areyousurethatyouwillnotdisappointuswhenweneedyoumost?”andallofthat,soalotofwritingsandallofthat.So,meaningthat,forme,unlikeotherpeople--theywouldprobablycampaignforlike3days,Ihavetocampaignforalongerperiod.So,Icampaigned,andIwasreallyshockedonthedaythatwenormallydoadebatebeforetheelection,sotheywouldbringallthecandidatesondebatesandtalktostudents.AsIstooduptotalk,Isawthattheentireauditoriumofabout10,000studentsstoodupinsolidaritywithmeandbythetimeIgottotherostrumtotalk,theywerejustshouting,“Youarewinning,youarewinning,youarewinning,youdon’tneedtoanswer

15LeonTrotskywasaSovietrevolutionaryandMarxisttheorist.(“LeonTrotsky.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky)

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anyquestions.”AndIstoodupthereandIthinkformethatwasamomentinmylifethatIcannotforgetwhereitshowsalotofacceptancebyyourpeersandtheschool.So,IthentriedtopersuadethecrowdtocalmdownandIsaidtothemthatIwouldliketosayafewwords.“Yes,Iagree,andIacceptthefactthattheydidn’twantmetosayanything,thattheyhaveacceptedthatIamgoingtowintheelection,butIwouldliketosayafewwords.”So,Ispoketothem,appreciatingthem,andalsopromisingthemthatIwilltryasmuchaspossiblenottodisappointthestudentswhohadgivenmethevotes.So,wewentontheelectionday,verycompetitive,interestingly.Despitethat,IthinkIwonbyelevenvotes,someaningthattherewasalotofcompetition.Afterthat,Ihadtodoalotofthingsandformethegenderquestionsalsocameindifferenttimes.Forexample,theassumptionisthatanystudentinthatposition-paststudentleadersinthatposition-thereisanexpectationthatyou’resupposedtosmoke,thatyouweresupposedtodrink.So,Igotalotofpeoplecominguptotellmethat.“Oh,theguyswhowereinthispositionbefore,theysmoke,theydrink,theydothis,theydothat,andthatyouarealsoexpectedtodothat.So,youcan’tsayno-”andItoldthemtosay,andIhadtodealwiththat,tosaythat“Ihavetobemyself,”evendespiteallthatpressure].IhadsituationswherebyIthinktherewasaparticulardaywhenaparticularsideoftheUniversitywasburning,therewasafiredisasterandwewereexpectedtogothereasleadersofthecampus.So,Ididn’tknow,Iwassleeping,andbeforeIknew itall theguyswere insidemyhostelwhichwaswrongbecause itwasa femalehostel.Anditwasatimewhentheladieswereouttohavetheirbathandallofthat,soIjusthadalotofpeoplescreaming.So,theyjusttookadvantageofthefactthattheyhadafemalestudentleaderinthehostelandtheyjustcameandstartedbangingonmydoor,“Youhavetocomeout,that’swhywedon’twantawoman!”So,mypointisthatforeveryaspectofmywork,mygenderwasaquestion.Andforme,itmademeunderstandthefactthattherearestrongpatriarchalnormsinthesociety.Thatevenwhenyouappeartobethebestwomanforthejob,there’salwaysaquestionaboutyourcapacitytobeabletodeliver.AndIthinkthehighestpointwaswhensomecultguysenteredthecampusandtheystartedshootingeverywhereandstudentswereafraid,andIrealizedonthatdaythatnobodyelsewasaroundexceptme.So,Ithoughttomymindthatmaybetheguysknewthattheseguyswerecomingbuttheydidn’tletmeknow.So,IwasthenlefttoconfronttheissueastheonlystudentunionleaderthatwasoncampusonthatdayandIrememberIhadto,despitethegunshotandthefactthatstudentswererunninghelter-skelter,Ihadtomovefromonehosteltoanothertotrytocalmthestudentsdown.Tosaythat“We’retryingtogetacrosstothesecuritytoaddressthematter”andIrememberthatwhenIgottotheparticularhall,whichisaveryknownhall,whichiscalledAwolowohall,themostvibranthallintheUniversity,theyfeltthatwhatIwassayingwasasignofweakness.ThatIwasnotexpectedtotellthestudentsthat,thatwhatIshouldhavebeentellingthestudentsisto come out enmasse to fight against the cultists. Thatwas notmy opinion because Ithoughtthatitwouldmeanhavingalotofstudentsdiethatnightbecauseitwasalreadylikesevenintheevening.ButbythetimeIgottoAwolowoHall,thenumberofstudentsI

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metthere,anditwasobviousthattheywerewaitingformetosaythesamething,thenprobablyIwouldbemobbedandallofthat.So,bythetimeIgotthere,IrealizedthatthecrowdwasnotgoingtolistentothatsermonthatIwaspassingfromonehosteltoanother.So,Idecided,becausethatlookstomethatwaswhattheywantedfrommeandIhadnooptionthentojustsaywhattheywanted.So,IrememberIsaid“GreatestIfe,thisisnotUniversityofIbadan.GreatIfe isnottheUniversityofBenin. It isnotaplacewhereweallowcultismtobethecultureofthestudents.InthisUniversitytoday,wewillresisteveryattempt-”soIchangedmyvoice.So,Istartedtalkingaboutresistingtheattempt.Now,bycallingforresistance,whatitthenmeansisthatweweregoingtomarchfromtheretogoandfightandbattlewiththecultistswhowerealreadyoncampus.So,Iledthemfromthathostel, through the den of the cultists. Of course, it became like awhole lot of issues.Students they fought against themselves, some got wounded, and they arrested somestudentsthatwerecultistmembers.So,theybroughtthemtoAwolowohall,thatsamehallwheretheythinktheyhaveallthepower.So,theybroughtthemtothehall,theylockedthemup,theywerebeingmaltreatedandIwasscreamingandsaying“No,thisisnotright,we can’t continue beating people!” and all of that. And I could see a lot of things thathappenedonthatdaywhichIwasnothappywith.So,theschoollateroncameinbecauseIthinkeventhen,therewasaparticularstudentwhowasrelatedtotheViceChancellor,Ithinkhissonwasoneofthosethatwasarrested.Mostofthepeoplethatwerearrestedwerealsostudents,lecturer’sstudents,andallofthat.So,itbecamelikeabigissueandlateron,theschoolhadtowadeintothematter.Butforme,intermsofremembering-becauseIknowthatlaterontherewasabigpanelsomeofthecultistswereexpelledandIhadalotofbacklash,havingledthat.ThereweretimeswhenI’dgettomyhostelandhavetomeettheheadofagoatblood,saying“Countyourdays”andallofthat.So,asayounggirl,becausethenIwasalsojustlike19or20,itgotbacktomeandIbecameafraidoncampus.Icouldnotletanybody…Ididn’thavethecapacitytotellanyonethewayIwasfeeling.I’dbewalking,I’dbelookingaroundmyself,peopleattimescomebehindmeandtellme“Wetoldyounottodoit,you’vedoneit,we’llmakesure....”So,therewerealotofthreatsaround,butbecausethesystemdidalsonotallowit,formetoshowmyfears.Sorather,Ikeptmyfearstomyself,Ilearnedhowtomovefrommyroom.Iwasonthethirdfloor,butIcouldmovefromthethirdfloor,frommy310to305.IcouldskipfrommyroomwhenIhearpeoplearoundmydoortothenextoneuntil305whereIhadafriend,thenIwouldcomebackthroughthebackdoor.Youknow,itwasquiteriskybecauseIcouldhavefelldownfromthethirdfloorandallofthat,butIlearnedtodothatasawayofsavingmyself,butIdidn’thavethecapacitytotellanybodywhatIwasfeelingandthefactthatIwasafraid,thefactthatmylifewasunderthreatandallofthat.Sothat’swhyIsaidthat’soneexperiencethatIcanremember.Thenbeforegraduating,IhadalotofthreatsfromalsolecturerswhofeltthatIwas--eventheViceChancelloratthattime--feltthatIwastooradicalandthatIthinktheyhadtonegotiatewhethertheywantedmetoremainoncampus

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ortoleave.AndIthinkthattheypickedtheoptionof“lethergosothatwecanhavesomekindofpeaceoncampus.”AndthatwashowIlefttheUniversity.RO:Wow.Interesting.Yeah,yousaidalotofthingsandIactuallyhavebeentakingnotes. I’m justwondering,what early did you see as dynamismof gender in thedifferentpartsofthecountrywhereyoulivedandgrewup?AA:Well, forexample, Iknowthatalthough Igrewupaside fromnorth-central,KwaraState.KwaraStateis,uptotoday,ahighlymultiethnicstate,whereyouhaveYoruba,youhaveHausa,andothertribes.ButthedominantpeoplethereistheYoruba,HausaandtheFulaniandIthinktheycallthem‘Gambari’inthatstate.So,meaningthattherearedifferentattitudes to the gender issue in that state because it’s not only cultural but it’s alsoreligious.So,atypicalyounggirlisexpectedtohavetheveilontobeabletobeacceptedinthatsociety.Andofcourse,inthatsocietyalsoIsawwhilegrowingup,youhavealotofyounggirls,whoweremyfriends,gotmarriedearly.Therewerealotofthingsaroundthecelebrationofyoungwivesatthattime.InOsunState,16itwasquitealittlebitdifferentfromKwaraState.OsunStatewasmorecultural,butyoudidn’tseethatstrongreligiousaffiliationatthattime.AndalsoInoticedthatwhilegrowingupofcoursetherewerealsoa lotof issuesIknewabout,talkaroundsexualabuse,aboutrape,asearlyasmaybeaswhenIwaslikesixorseven,becausethereweretalksaboutmyfriendshavingbeenrapedbysomebodyandallofthat.So,therewerealotofthosesocialproblemshappeningatthattime.Althoughthedifferencebetweenthenandnowisthatthoseconversationswerenotconversationsthatyoucanbefreetotalkaboutinschoolorthatyourparentsfeelfreetotalkabouttoyou.Somoreorless,Ithinkforthosetwostatestherewerealotoftraditionalissues,culturalissuesthataffectthegrowthofwomenandgirls.Youcanseethateveninschool,thewayalotofmyfriendsthathadtodropbecausethen,wewerepayingforschoolfeesandallofthat,andtheirparentscannotpay.AndIthinkalsoinaclass,wehadhalfofthestudentswerestudentswhowerewiththeir fosterparents,sotheyweremore likehouse-girlsbecauseIwenttoapublicschool,therewerehousegirls,someofthemcamelatetoschoolandallofthat.SothoseissuesweresomeoftheissuesthatIsawgrowingup.So,you thenseewehadmoreboys thatwerebrilliantbecause theyhadopportunities,becausetheycometoschoolearly,theycanalsoleaveattheirowntime,butthegirlswerenot as brilliant as boys at that time because they were not given opportunities toconcentrateontheirstudies,particularlythoseinpublicschoolthantheboys.RO:Doyouthinkthathaschangedovertheyears?

16 Osunisaninlandstateinsouth-westernNigeriawhosecapitalisOsogbo.ItisborderedbyKwaraStateintheNorth.(“OsunState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osun_State)

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AA:Well,ifIlookat,sittinghereasalectureroftheUniversityofLagos,thefacultyofLawinparticular,and lookingatmystudents I thinkthere’sahighnumberofyounggirls. Ithinkit’sevenhigherthanthenumberofboysthatIseeinclass.So,meaningthatmaybeinthesouthwestpartof thecountrybecauseIdon’t thinkthat isgeneral,becauseIamawarethatthedatathatiscomingfromthenortheastofNigeria,westillhaveabout70%ofwomenareilliterateinthatarea.AndIamstillawarethatchildmarriageisstillverycommoninthatarea.So,theremighthavebeensomekindoflittletiltsanditcouldalsobethatispeculiartoLaw,becauseitmightnotbethatsamewithengineeringormedicine,butIknowthatovertimetherehasbeenaslightimprovementinthenumberofgirlsinschool.RO:Okay,thankyou.So,veryquickly,Ijustneedoneortwopiecestoaddtothat.So,that’syourjourneythroughlife.Whatwouldyousayyourcentralcommitmentsinlifehavebeen?AA:Well,Ithinkmywholelifeisaboutjustice,andIthinkthat’sapriorityissuetomeandnowit’saboutmoreofgender justicebecauseIrealizedovertimethatwomenare inaparticular position in this society, andmaybe generally in all society,where society isprogrammedinamanneragainstthem.There’sanexclusion,irrespectiveofwhoyouare,evenifyouareaprofessoritdoesn’treallymatter.IntheworkthatIdo,wehaveseenasituationwherebyahusbandofaprofessordied,andtheysentafaxmessagethatshe’sgoingtobetakenoverbythebrotherofthehusband.So,mypointisthatallofthethingsI’veseenisthattheinjusticeagainstwomenis locatedwithinthepatriarchalnormandthereisaconspiracyaroundthenormtotheextentthatithasbecomeaweb.Andit’sverydifficultforwomentobeabletobreakthewebandtoseethemselvesasagroupofpeopleinasocietythatisfreefromanyformofinjustice.So,theinjusticeissohistoricalinthelivesofwomenthatthere’saneedtogatherthestormtobeabletoaddresstheproblem.So,weneedaverystrongwaveandthatisthecauseoflifeIhavetaken.Howdowebegintobuildthatwave?Andthatwaveisnotawavecanbedoneinisolation,it’snotawavethatcanbedonealone,itcannotbeinalonerway,butratherit’sawavewherewehavetobuildsolidaritywithotherwomen,withothergirlstobeabletoliberatewomenfromtheveryterriblepatriarchalnormsthathavebeendefiningtheirlives,thathavebeenpushingwomenthroughthecoursethattheyknownothingabout,buttheyjusthavetocontinuetoansweraquestionwhichtheydidn’toriginate.Andformethat’sacauseoflifethatIhavetakentoseewhatwecando.AndIdothatindifferentways.Imobilize,Ibuildsolidarity,Iinvestinnetworking,andwealsousethelawasawaybecausewehavealsorealizedinsome places one of the easiest ways to liberate women is also to come up with legaljurisprudencethatcanhelpinpromotingtherightsofwomen.

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RO:Great,thankyousomuch.Sofinally,onthatsegment,whatthereforewouldyousayisyourmostsignificantachievement,professionally?AA:Wellforme,Ithinkthereareseveral.OneofthethingsthatI’vedoneasheadoftheorganizationintermsofbuildingsolidarityistosetupagrassrootsnetworkbecauseIalsorealizethatoneofthethingsthatwouldcontinuetoaffectbuildingafeministsocietyisifwedon’tconnectwiththebulkofthepeople.Sowehaveworkedandwenowhaveaboutsixty communities acrossNigeria from the south and the northwherewehave built afeminist paralegal system where people in communities, both men and women, arecommittedtoensuringthatthere’sgenderjusticeforwomenfolk,toalsoensurethatthesocietyisheldaccountableforwhateverhappenstothewomen.Secondly,we’vealsobuiltthat same community of young girls in about 10 states, so like a total of about 45universitiesacrossNigeria,andpolytechnics,whereweworkwithyounggirlstofindtheirvoice,alsotohaveanunderstandingoffeminism,andalsosupportandpromotefeministbehavioranddevelopafeministcommunity.Thirdly,it’sontheissueofthelegalspace.Wehavetakenupsomecasesoncitizenship.We’vealsotakenupcasesonmaternalhealthinNigeria.WeareawarethatNigeriahasoneofthehighestmaternalmortalityratesintheworld,sowehaveactuallytakenthegovernmenttocourt.Wehavetakenactionswherethegovernmenthadtoclosedownthebloodbankwhenwerealizedthatthebloodbankwascontributingtomaternaldeath.Wehadasituationwherebyhealthfacilitiesthatwerecontributingtomaternaldeathhavebeencloseddownduetoourworkintermsofholdingthegovernmentaccountable.Ofrecent,wehavealsogoneintothe“MeToo”case.WehadcontributedtothefirstclassicalcasewhereaprofessorofaUniversitywhowasaccusedofsexualharassmentwasconvicted.WehadsupportedthestudentinensuringthattheappropriateevidencewasputbeforethecourtandthatwasthefirstcaseinNigeriawherea professorwas convicted for sexual-harassment and I think itwas for like two yearsimprisonment. So, in terms of building themovement,we have a very strong voice inbuildingthewomen’smovement.Wewillnotachieveanythingasagroupofwomenifwedon’t have a strong movement. Within the political space, there is a need to build amovementthatcanholdpoliticalpartiesaccountable.Thewomen’smovement,forustobeabletoaddressfivemajorissueswhichwehavefoundasourpriorityissuesinNigeria.Oneisthewomeninpolitics.IfyoulookatthenumberofwomeninpoliticsinNigeria,asofthislastyear,itisnotupto6%attheNationalAssembly.Sogenerally,there’saseriousdownturnintermsofthenumberofwomeninpolitics.So,we’vetakenthatasapriorityforcauseandthetheoryisthatifwomenparticipateindecisionmaking,it’sgoingtobeabletochangethelivesofwomenandgirlsinthecountry,thereisempiricalevidencetosupportthat.Oursecondissueistheissueofviolenceagainstwomenandgirls.Ourtheoryis that if we do not address the issue of violence against women and girls, the oldconversationaboutsustainabledevelopmentgoalswillbeamirage.So,there’saneedforustocontributeinlawmakingandpolicyinterventionandinstitutionbuilding.Awareness

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andsensitizationforpeopletobeabletohaveaccesstotheinstitution,freeforsurvivorstobeabletosupporttheireducationofviolenceagainstwomenandgirlsinNigeria.Thethirdissueistheissueofwomenintheeconomy.Aswespeaktoday,womenrepresentthehighestnumberofpoorpeopleinthiscountry.Theyarepoorbecauseoftheirunpaidcarework;theyarepoorbecausesocietyhasnotseenwomeninanyareaofdevelopmentasacriticalsegment.Andifyoulookat,intherealsense,thesmall,olderwomenfarmerswhoare thepeoplehelping in termsof food security forusasa country.Womenrepresentabout70%of thatand that’sabulkso theycannot talkaboutpovertyor foodsecuritywithout…So,whenthesocietyisinthatregardandtheydonotseetherelevanceofwomenintermsoftheeconomy.Ithinkit’smadeconomicsifyouexclude50%ofyourpopulationin termsof development. So that’s an area inwhichwe also look at. The other area iswomeninpeaceandsecurity. IfyougototheIDPs17 inthiscountry,particularly inthenortheast,whichisalsoanareawherewework,tomorrowI’mgoingtoAdamawaState18so it’s a placewherewework, andwe know.We have talked and consultedwith thewomen. The women still represent the largest number of people in those IDP camps,internallydisplacedpersoncamps.Ifyoulookatthehugemillionsofpeoplethathavebeensubjectedandput intothe IDPcamps inNigeria, thereareover like fivemillionpeopleacrossthecountry.Andifyoulookatthekindoflifethatthey’resubjectedtoforanoffencethattheyknownothingaboutasagroupofpeople.Ifwedon’taddresstheissueofconflict,lifewillnotbebetteroffforwomen.So,itiscriticalthatweaddresstheissueofpeaceandsecurity.Itiscriticalthatwhileaddressingit,theindigenousknowledgeisveryimportant.Andwhenyoutalkabout indigenousknowledge, thewomenplayaverycriticalrole inproducingthatindigenousknowledgeandifthegovernmentdoesnotseethatrolethatwomenplayintermsofdecisionmakingandpeaceandsecurity,thenthereisaproblem.Sothelastissueistheissueofsexualandreproductiverights,whichisveryfundamental,whichisverycritical.Therighttoawoman’sbodilyintegrityisnotacompromise.It’sarightthatshouldbegivenbecauseifyoulookatthepopulationofthecountry,ifinthelast10yearsweusedtosaythatthere’s1millionpeopleinthiscountry,buttodaythereare200million.Andthisisaresultofthefactthatwomenwhoaresupposedtomakeachoice,intermsofthepopulation,arenotgiventhatopportunitytobeabletomakethatchoice,whethertohaveanabortion,whethertohaveachild,orwhethernottohaveachild.Soifwedon’taddress that, thepopulationwillkeepgettingbiggerbecausewomen lack thevoicetobeabletomakeadecisionintermsoftheirsexualandreproductiverights,intermsoftheirbodilyintegrity.So,forme,thosearefiveareas,andwhichisthereasonwhywe

17 IDPisanacronymforInternallyDisplacedPersons(IDP)camps.TheUNHCRdefinesthisgroupasrefugeeswhohavenotcrossedabordertofindsafetyandremainundertheprotectionoftheirgovernment,evenifthatgovernmentisthereasonfortheirdisplacement.(“InternallyDisplacedPeople.”UNHCR.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.unhcr.org/en-us/internally-displaced-people.html)18AdamawaisastateinnortheasternNigeria,whosecapitalandlargestcityisYola.(“AdamawaState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamawa_State)

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aremobilizingwomentohaveaconversation.There’saneedforustodiscussintermsof“What is the Nigeria we want, as women in Nigeria?” So, there’s a movement that isgraduallybuildingtowardsanationalconversation.ThereisaneedforwomeninNigeriatohaveanationaldialogue,tobeabletocometogetheranddefinethekindofNigeriathatwewant.ThecurrentNigeriaandthecurrentsystemisnotinanywayfeminist,it’snotinanywayconsideratetogenderequality,andwhatithasbeendoingistofurtherstrengthentheinstitutionthatweakensthewomen’smovementandgenderjustice.RO:Thankyousomuch,youknow,you’veactuallybeguntoaddressotherquestionsthatmight’vecomeupseparately,butthenIwilljustaskthisbriefly,sohowwouldyousayyour involvementandyourworkhavebeenshapedbyyourexperiencesovertheyears?AA:WellIbelievethat,IknowIsaidtooneofthemediathateveryonehasastorytotellaboutwhathappenswhenyou’regrowingup.IgrewupalsoinacontextoftheworkthatIdo.Mymomwasoneofthosewhosufferedsomeviolence,likeanyotherwoman,whichisacommonthinginAfricaandprobablyallovertheworld.Andittookheralongtimetofindthatvoice,soIamworkinganexperiencethatI’vegonethrough,asachildwhenIseemyparentsfightingandIrunaway,hidesomewhere,beingafraidmaybesomethingwouldhappen to them,maybe they’ll kill themselves, andallof that. So, I canunderstand thetrauma,thatevenwhenyou’renotanactiveparticipantinthebattleinthehome,asachildyoucanfeelsomething.AndIgrewuptosay,“Idon’twanttoexperiencethiskindofthing.”So,meaningthatithastodowiththekindofchoicesthatImakeinmylife,andIreallywanttohelpmyfriends,Iwanttohelpotherpeopleintheworldnottoexperiencethiskindofviolencethatmymotherexperienced.Ithinkattheageof35shealreadyhadhighbloodpressure,attheageof45-47shehaddoneheartsurgerytogetastentinangioplastyandallofthat.AndIknewthatallthishappenedbecauseofsomeofthepressurethatshehadgrowingupinanabusivefamilyandrelationship.Andwesawitasachildandsoforme,I’mnotspeakingasanoutsider.I’mspeakingassomebodywhohadexperiencedit,whosawit,whoknewtheimplication.So,forme,whenyou’retellingmethat“violenceagainstwomenisahealthissue,”Iunderstoodthatverywell.Mymomis78yearsold,Itakeherhealthmuchmoreseriouslythananyotherthing,becauseIknewwhatshehasgonethrough.MyfatherislatesoIcanunderstandthehealthaspectofit.Theeconomyaspectofit,IgrewupasachildandIsawmyfatherdestroyourentireeconomy.Isawhimdrivehiscartobreakherbottlesthatshehadputtogetherinaplacethatshewantedtosell, and I sawher rolling on the floor, crying, “whenwould I be able to get this thingtogetheragain?”So, Iunderstoodwhentheysay it’saneconomic issuebecause Iknowseveralotherwomenwhogothroughthis,whohavetolosetheirwork,theirjob,becausetheyhavetocomelatetoworkbecausetheyhavebeenbeateninthemorning.Theydon'twanttoshowtheblackeyetotheirpeopleintheofficeortheyhadtogotothehospitalfor

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whathappened.SoIknowthatitcouldbeaneconomicissueandIalsoknowthatit’sapoliticalmatterbecauseIhavealsoengagedalotofpolicy,alotofpeopleinpolicyanddecisionmaking,wehaveengagedtheminabidtopassaViolenceAgainstWomenActindifferentstates.Andwehaveseentheresistancebysomeofthemennottoallowthebilltopreventviolenceagainstwomentopass,soIunderstandthatit’spolitical.Iunderstandforeverymanwhoissittingonthechairwhoviolateshiswifebecauseit’snotgeneral,notallofthemdo.Itfeelswhenyouspeakaboutwomen,youarespeakingabouthisconducttohiswifeortohisgirl,buttothegirlsandnottohisdaughterortoanywomanthatheviolates.So,Icanunderstandapoliticalnatureofviolenceagainstwomen.So,Isithere,andIspeakfromalotofexperiencethatIhaveseen.EvenasalecturerintheUniversitythatstudentsconfidein,theycometometotalktomeaboutsomeofthethingshappeningtothem,thekindofrapethattheysufferinthesystem,theviolencethattheysuffer,theharassmentthattheysuffer.So,Iamnotspeaking,andthat’swhyIsayIspeakconfidentlyasaparticipant.So,Iunderstandviolenceagainstwomen,Iunderstandtheissuearoundwomenpoliticalparticipationandthefactthatifwedon’thaveourvoicesthere,youknow,nothingwillhappen.So,myexperienceinlife,thepeopleI’veworkedwith,thethingsthatIhavedone,hasalsomademeunderstand…Ijustremembered--OneofthethingsthatIthinkwehavealsodoneinthisorganizationisalsotosupportlawmakinginNigeria,isitlawmaking,tosupportthepassageofgender-basedviolenceprohibitionlaws,Ithinkinabout3or4stateswehavepushedthatlawsuccessfullyandthelawhasbeenpassedinOgunstate,inEkitistate19,andinMaiduguri20,we’reworkingonthelawatthenationallevel--wecontributed to thepassageof the lawand insomeotherstates that I cannotremember,IthinkBenuestate,wehadalsoparticipatedintheprocessofensuringthatthestatepassedit.Also,mypointisthatI’mspeakingfromtheexperienceofhavinghadtonegotiate,tolobbythepolicymakerswhoaremajorlymen,tobeabletopasstheselaws.So,I’mnotinanywaydisconnectedfromwhatIstandfor.So,IstandforitbecauseIknowthatitisneeded,Iknowthatit’sapriority,andIknowthattheliberationofwomenisnotacompromise.It’snotsomethingIwanttocompromise,it’snotsomethingthatwewanttonegotiateinthiscountry.ForNigeriatobebetter,forNigeriatobeabletogetitsplaceintheworld,Nigeriamustaddressthegenderquestion.Ifwedon’t,we’llremainwhereweare.RO:Sowhateverhappenedtothegirlchild’sbillaboutgirlschildmarriage,thatwasthrownoutoftheHouseacoupleofyearsagowhenthat-washeaSenator?-marriedthelittlegirl?

19 EkitiStateisinsouth-westernNigeria.(“EkitiState.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekiti_State)20MaiduguriisthecapitalandlargestcityofBornoStateinnorth-easternNigeria.(“Maiduguri.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiduguri)

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AA: I remember Iwas an activeparticipant in that process too. Iwas a coordinator ofgenderandconstitutionalreformnetworkinNigeria.AnditwasatapointwhenthereformoftheconstitutionwasgoingonandoneoftheareasthatwearetryingtopushforwastheareaofaddressingSection29.4,subsectionBof4BoftheNigerian1999Constitution.So,we’re trying to push for the amendment because in a way the law defines the age ofmajorityas18andgoesfurthertosaythatanywomanwhoismarriedisdeemedtobeanadult.Nowwhilethatlawwastalkinginthecontextofcitizenshipandregistration,butinaway, itcanalsoaffirmthe lackofuniformity inwhatwecalledtheageofmajority inNigeriabysayingthatanywomanwhoismarried,especiallyinacountrywhereyouknowthattherearealotof instanceswherenine-year-old,ten,seven-year-oldgirlsarebeingmarriedoff.Nigeriaisoneofthecountrieswhereearlychildmarriageisveryprevalent.Tonowhavesomething in theconstitutionthatsayswhereachild ismarried,whereawomanismarried,whatthathasdoneistousemarriagetodeterminetheageofmajority.Andso,wetried,welobbied,gotalotofsenatorsonoursidethenwewerebeingledbySenatorAl-HassanwholateronbecametheMinisterofWomen’sAffairsyearsback.AndIrememberwithFIDA21,HauwaShekarau22whowasthenthePresidentofFIDA,wehadworkedovernightwiththethenSenatorAl-HassantoworkoutsomethingthatwouldbepushedforwardtotheSenateonthatday.So,wewereactuallyrightthereatthegallerywhenthewholethinghappened.Soshehadagreedtopush,butbythetimeshegottotheHouse,itwasadifferentstoryandwealsosawrighttherewhere,thefactthatshedidn’thave the capacity to,becauseof thepressure she lost the capacity tohelpus to lobbyeffectively,tobeabletopushbecausethevoicesofthemenwerehigherthanhers.Andthatraisesthequestionofevenwhenwomenreallywanttomakechangehappen,ifthereareveryfew,itmightalsobecomeagreatchallenge.RO:So,numbermatters.AA:So,thenumberalsomatters.So,itwasthenumberthatdidn’thelp,sowhatthenumberdidwastokillthedrivebySenatorAl-Hassan.Onthatday,shecouldnotsayanything,shehadtositthereandallowSenatorYerimatoleadtheconversationontheneedforwhytheyshouldretainthat.Andsothatwaswherewemissedthatopportunity,butyouseeweparticipatedintheChildRightsActwhichwaspassedin2003andhasbeendomesticatedinabout26statesinNigeria.TheChildRightsActalsospeakstotheissueofthedefinitionofwhoisachildandordinarilyshouldaffecttheissueoftherightofthechildandshould

21 FIDAistheacronymfortheSpanishorganization“FederaciónInternacionaldeAbogadas.”ThegrouphasbeenreplicatedinNigeriaunderthename“InternationalFederationofWomenLawyers.”(“InternationalFederationofWomenLawyers(FIDA)Nigeria.”Devex.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.devex.com/organizations/international-federation-of-women-lawyers-fida-nigeria-112900)22HauwaShekarauisalawyer,women’srightsactivist,SRHRspecialist,andhumanrightsactivistbasedinAbuja,Nigeria.(“HauwaShekarau.”Twitter.AccessedMay21,2020.https://twitter.com/hauwashekarau?lang=en)

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beable to address the issueof childmarriage.But, unfortunately about24 stateshavesignedontothatlaw,the10statesthathavenotsignedontothatlawarethestatesthatarereallythosetopstateswhoarereallyviolatingtherightofthechild.Andthey’reinthenortheasternpartofthecountry,inthenortheast,thenorthwest,andsomeoftheminthenorthcentral.So,it’sunfortunatethatthosearetheplaceswherechildmarriageisveryprevalent, but they are theoneswhohad refused, basedon religion, basedon culture,basedontraditiontoallowtheiryoungchildrentogrow.AndthosearethestatesthatIthinkthatweneedtodomoreworktoensurethatweliberatethegirlchildandthat’swhyyouseetheinsurgencygoesintoChibok23andcarriesallthegirlsandthegirlscamebackwithabout50-60%ofthem,oftheoneswhocameback,hadtoberepairedbecausetheywere violated, theywere sexually abused. And that’s why the state has a role to playbecausesomeofthethingsthatthestateacceptsduringpeacetimecanhaveaveryhugeimplicationinwartime.Ifyouallowpeopletomarrykidsat8,9,10yearsold,inwartimepeoplewillseeitasnormalandtheywilljustdowhattheyaredoinginpeacetime.Thisisempirical, it’sevidencethatweseeinallthewarplacesfromSierraLeonetoLiberiatowhereweareinNigeria.RO: I imagine, I can’t imagine how these things happen and continually getperpetuated without questioning. So, I just wonder how, your engagements forinstance,mighthaveimpactedyourfeministacademicworkoractivism?AA:Well,inalotofways.BeforeIjoinedacademia,Ihadbeenwritingalotanditwaseveninteresting,onthedayIwentformyinterview,thatthepeoplewhowereinterviewingsaidtomethattheyhadreadalotofmybooks,particularlyonwomen’srightsandwhathaveyou.Soforme,comingintothissystem,Iknowalotofpeoplehadaskedme,“DoyouwanttobeaConstitutionallawyeroryouwanttobeGenderandtheLaw?”andIsaid“Itdoesn’tmakemea lesserperson, the fact that you specialize in tax lawandyou think tax is astronger…isahardlawandyouthinkgenderis-”andIsaidtome,“Genderisaharderlawthaneventhetaxlaw.”Sowhatthishashelpedmetodoisalsotofurtherstrengthenmywork,mostofthewritingsthatIdo,theyareeitheronwomeninpoliticalparticipation,decisionmaking,climatechangeasitrelatestogender,theissueofconflict,howdoesitrelatewithgender?Howdoesitintersectwiththeissueofclimate,migration,trafficking,andallofthat?So,joiningthisareahadhelpedmetobeabletoconnectthoseissuesthatIwouldprobablyhavetakenalonewhereI’vecreatedaveryintersectionforwhyweneedtodomoreworktoensurethatthereisgenderjusticeinthesociety.SoIteachGenderandtheLaw,andit’soneofthecoursesthatItrytoencourageasmanystudentsaspossibletoattend,todo,becauseIfeelthatoneofthethingsthatweneedtodoistotreatissuesof

23 ChibokisalocalgovernmentareaofBornoState.(“ChibokSchoolgirlsKidnapping.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chibok_schoolgirls_kidnapping)

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genderequalityfromschoolsothatpeoplewhoarepassingthroughtheUniversitysowearenothearingaboutgenderequalityorwomen’srightsforthefirsttimewhenyouareapolicymaker,butyouhavehadtheopportunityofdiscussingitinclass,youhavehadtheopportunityofresearchinginthatarea.So,Ialsoteachthemhumanrightslawandoneoftheareasofhumanrightslaw,whichseemstohavealotofstudentswantingtodoit,sowehavegender,women’srights,rightsofwomenasoneofthetopicsinthecurriculum.So,meaningthatwealsohavetheopportunityofspeakingtomorestudentsinthatregard.So, I think,byand large, thishashelped inmywritingsand I’vedonea lot in termsofensuring that the conversation on gender equality is put on the table, particularly inNigeria.AndI’malsoamemberoftheGlobalAlliance,FeministAllianceforRights,whichisbeingcoordinatedby theCenter forWomenandLaw inUniversity inNewJersey, inRutgersUniversity.So,IalsobelongtotheAfricanFeministForumandalsotheNigerianFeministForum,andIalsoconveneinoneofthemostvibrantfeministplatformsinNigeriawherewehaveallfeministscollectivelycomeintoit.Fromthatplatform,we’vedonealotofthingsintermsofaddressingtheissueandwehavenotonlyfeministswithin,butwehave feminists in diaspora. And what we have used that to do is to put together thecollectivevoicesofwomenwhobelieveinafeministworldtotrytointervene,andwehaveintervened in several issues to the extent that because of the work we do the PunchNewspaperhadtopulldowntheireditorialbecausewewroteaprotesttosaywhatyouhave put forward in Punch Newspaper is discriminatory. As we speak the GuardianNewspaperispullingdownaneditorialtheywroteabouttheBBCdocumentaryandtheirownanalysisofwhattheBBCdidn’tdorightandwherewenoticedthattheiranalysisisnotinfavorofgenderequalityorwomenwhohavebeenharassedbytheirlecturers,wewrotetothemandthey’reaskingus- theydidarejoinder-andthey’reaskingus foraconversation. So, we’ve had situations where we jointly address issues of women inpolitics.AwomanhadrunforSpeakershipoftheHouse,wehadgivenherthroughthatplatformthesolidaritythatshedesires.Recently,aboutninewomenhadbeenappointedtobecomecommissionersinKwaraState,whichwasthefirsttimewe’rehaving56%ofthe nominees of any government in this country to bewomen and therewas a lot ofbacklash,sowestoodforthewomen,weworkedwiththemallthroughtheir…RO:Campaign?AA:No,no,withtheirinterviewswiththeHouseofAssembly.Andtoday,thosewomenwillbethefirstsetof56%womennomineesthatwehaveeverhadinthecountry.So,wehadalsogivensupporttothehe-for-sheGovernorwhohadnominatedthewomen.So,byandlarge, it has been like a collective voice and it’s the same group that is convening thenational conversation to define the lives of women in Nigeria. We intend to have a

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communique24onthethirdday,andsubmitthatcommuniquetotheHouseofAssembly,NationalAssemblyonwhattheNigerianwomenwant,soforus,inaway,it’smoreoflesslikewomencallingforarevolutionthatwillbetterthelivesofwomen,thatwillliberatethelivesofwomen.We’retiredoflamentations,we’retiredofpromisesthatareneverkeptbythegovernmentoftheday,we’retiredofthelivesofwomen,thedeathsofwomenforoffencesthattheydon’tcommit,andwedon’twanttopretendasifwearenotfeelingthisfromthem.Wewanttoconfrontthegovernmentaboutit,wewanttoinsistthattherightsofwomenmustbeproperlyprotectedinthiscountryandthat’swhywethinkthatthatconversation is important. So,we’reworking towardsanational conversationandalsobuildingawomen’smovementinthiscountry.Goodenough,theUNwomenarealsofallingin line in that regardwith the spotlight initiative that has been launched globally. So,Nigeriaissupportingaprocesswherebuildingbecomesverycritical.Ithinkallovertheworldwe have realized that if there are no alliances bywomen across country, intra-country,willnotbeabletoachieveasocietythatisfreefromanyformofdiscriminationagainstwomen.SoNigerianwomenarealsomovinginthatregard,wehaveaveryvibrantgroup of women in Nigeria Association who understand the issue. We have vibrantindividualswhoarecommittedtoensuringthatwomen'sissuesareatthefrontburnerofthethingsthatwedointhecountry.So,whatwethenneedtodoistobringallthesevoicestogetherasonevoice.WehaveahugehistoryofAbaWomen25riots,wehaveahugehistoryofwhatMadamTinubu26didontaxissue,wehaveahugehistoryofthePelewuras27,we

24Acommuniqueisanofficialannouncementorstatement,usuallyonemadetothemedia.(“Communique.”Merriam-Webster.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/communiqu%C3%A9) 25 TheAbaWomen’sRiots,alsoknownastheWomen’sWar,wasaperiodofunrestinBritishNigeriainNovemberof1929.Itwascausedbyacombinationoffactors:theprotestagainsttheWarrantChiefs,theintroductionofnewtaxes,andincreasinglylowerpricesofagriculturalproducts.ThewomenriotedforanendofthewarrantchiefsystemandanappointmentofindigenousleadersasclanheadsasopposedtoBritishfigureheads.TherevoltresultedintheresignationofseveralWarrantChiefsandtheappointmentofwomentoserveonNativeCourts.Perhapsmostsignificantly,theriotsarewidelyregardedasthestartoftheemergenceofpan-Africananti-colonialnationalism.(“Women’sWar.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_War)26MadamTinubu,bornEfunporoyeOsuntinubuOlumosa,wasapoliticallysignificantfigureinNigerianhistoryduetoherroleasapowerfularistocrat,businesstycoon,andslavetraderinNigeria–bothbeforeandaftercolonialism.Shewasshrewd,ambitious,widelyrespected,andheldenormouseconomicpoweracrossWesternAfrica.Shewasbornin1805anddiedin1887.(Foster,Hannah.“MadamEfunroyeTinubu(CA.1805-1887).”BlackPast.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/tinubu-madam-efunroye-ca-1805-1887/)27AlimotuPelewurawasaChiefandNigeriantraderwholedtheMarketWomen’sAssociation,anadvocacygroupformarketwomen.ShewasalsooneofHerbertMacaulay’smostvitalpoliticalallies.Forcontext,MacaulaywasamalepoliticianwidelyconsideringthefounderofNigeriannationalism.Shewasbornin1865anddiedin1951.(“AlimotuPelewura.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alimotu_Pelewura)

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have a huge history of Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti.28 Sowe are not--Hajia Sawaba,29 theQueenAminas--,soitisnotnew,womenorganizingisapartofthehistoryofNigeria.Soitisnot anew thingand that’swhywehavea strongMarketWomenAssociation, if anymarketwomenassociationsaysthataparticulargovernorwillnotbecomeagovernoritissomethingthatthey]cando.Sothatwethenwanttodoistostrengthenthosegroupingsacrossthecountrytobeabletonegotiatefortherightsofwomen.SothatwemovedfromlamentationandbeggingtoassertingandaffirmingourpresenceaswomeninNigeria,ourpresenceaswomenwhocanshifttheculturebecauseIthinkoneofthegreatestthingsthatwecandoistoachievethecultureshiftfromwherewearetowherewewanttobeasagroupofwomeninNigeria.Andthere’salotofworkgoingoninthatregardandIthinktheworkiseasybecausethere’salotoforganizingaround.Recently,IthinkawomanpassedoninMaiduguriandthiswasawomanwhothoughtthatherhusbandwaswronglyaccusedofbeingpartoftheinsurgency.Andtherewereaboutlike1500peoplethatwerewronglypickedforthatandwhatshedidwastobuildamovementofwomentoinsistandtofight,tosaysomeofourchildrendon’tknowanythingaboutit,theywerejustbeingarrestedbysoldiers for offences that theydidn’t- somypoint is that the spirit and conviction andcommitmentofNigerianwomentoorganizeisreallyverystrong.WehavetheUmuAdainthesoutheast,it’sagroupingofwomenthathasbeentherefromtimeimmemorial.Sowhatwe’regoingtodoisexploreallthesegroupingsandassociationstoformaformidableforceofNigerianwomentobeabletodefinethekindofelectionsthatwehave,whowewanttobeinthatelection,tofindthekindofcountrythatwewant,whowewanttoruleustohaveabetterNigeriathatweprayandhopefor.RO:Wonderful.Andthatwilljusttakeusstraightintothenextquestion,youstartedto talkaboutclimatechange,what is thatconnectionbetween feminism,women,andclimatechange?AA:Well,climatechangeisdefiningtheworld,meaningthatit’salsodefiningourgeneralexistencebecausewearealreadyexperiencingalotofchangesintemperaturesandalotofchangesinthesociety,whichisattributedtotheoldconversationaboutcarbonandallofthat.Now,foruswomen,becauseourlivelihoodsalsodependonoursurroundingandourenvironment.Alotofwomeninruralcommunitiesusethefirewoodforfoodthattheymake and of course the trees are no longer there because of climate change and alsobecause the societyhad takenover theplaceswherewewere supposed tohave trees,

28ChiefFunmilayoRansome-KutiwasaNigerianeducator,politicalcampaigner,women’srightsactivist,andaristocrat.ShewasalsothefirstfemalestudenttoattendAbeokutaGrammarSchool.Shewasbornin1900anddiedin1978.(“FunmilayoRansome-Kuti.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funmilayo_Ransome-Kuti)29GamboSawabawasaNigerianwomen’srightsactivist,politician,philanthropist,andelectedleaderofthenationalwomen’swingoftheNorthernElementProgressiveUnion.Shewasbornin1933anddiedin2001.(“GamboSawaba.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambo_Sawaba)

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greens grow,becauseof thebadmanagement in the societybecause the system isnotforward looking to be able to know that we need to preserve the greens for bettersustainability.Now,withinallthis,womenarecaughtinit,someuninformedaboutwhattodo,buttheyarequitepowerfulinchanging,inaddressingandmitigatingtheeffectofclimatechange.Butunfortunately,thesocietyisnottargetingthisgroupofpeopletobeabletoaddresstheimpactofclimatechange.IfyoulookatNigeriafromtheSahel,30theLakeChadconversationaboutwaterandallofthat.Inalltheseconversations,womenhaveaverycriticalroletoplayandthat’salsowhatleadstoconversationsaroundmigrationsomepeoplehavetomovefromaplacetoanotherinsearchoffood,insearchoflivelihood,insureofevenfarmlandthathasbeentakenoverfromthem.Andso,thereisaconnectionbetween the conversation about women’s rights, gender equality, climate change,migration,conflict,sothere’sanintersectionthatconnectsallthisconversationtogether.Andthatifwedon’taddresstheclimate,ifwedon’tlookattheroleofthedecisionsthatwomencanmakewithclimate,ifwedon’tprioritizeit,there’sapossibilitythatwewillnotbeabletoaddresstheeffectofclimate.Ifwomenconstitutethebulkofpeoplewhomanagelifeloadandtheydon’thaveinformationaboutwhattodowiththeclimate,whenthere’srain,whattodowiththeclimate,toaddresserosion,andallofthat.Ironically,fromthestudiesthatwehavehad,wealsoknowthatindigenousknowledgeofwomencanbeveryusefulinmitigatingtheeffectsofclimatechange.Andifwefailtotapintothatknowledgeofwomen,wemightnotbeabletoaddresstheproblemandtheeffectofclimatechangeparticularlyinthecommunities.RO:Thankyou,Ithinkit’sgettingclearernow.So,nextquestionI’djustlikeyoutospeaktothisrelationshipbetweenfeministscholarshipandactivism.AA:Well,feministscholarshipforme,it’salsoaformofactivisminthesensethatfeministacademics have actually defined the conversations and the boundaries in feministdiscussions.Whatfeministscholarshipdoesistoprovidethepowerandthetheoreticalbaseuponwhichfeminismisviewed.Whatitdoestofuelfeministactivisminamannerthat you draw your strength from, the writings of others to be able to define yourinterventionasanactivist.So,therearefeministscholarswhoalsoderive,forexampleifIwritefromtheworkIdo,someaningthatIwritefrom…RO:Legalperspectives?AA:Legalperspectives,socialperspectives.Meaningthat,Iamnotafeministscholarwhositsthereanddoestheories.Iwritenotasatourist,butalso,it’sacombinationofactivism,

30 TheSahelisanecoclimaticandbiogeographiczoneoftransitionbetweentheSaharatotheNorthandtheSudanianSavannatotheSouth.ItstretchesalongthecentrallatitudesofNorthAfricafromtheAtlanticOceantotheRedSea.(“Sahel.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahel)

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andwehaveseenquiteanumberoffeministscholarshipwritingfromthatangle,fromnotwhatwethink,butfromwhatwehaveactedandwhatwehaveseen.Tosaythisishow-andIthinkthatthat’swhatweneedtobuildmoreon,becausebeforeit’salwaysbeenthescholarsareon this sideand theactivistson theother side. So, the connectionofbothfeminist scholarship and activismwould give us a good blend so thatwe are not onlyspeakingtheory,wearealsospeakingreality.Becausewhattheactivistswouldbringinistheactivism, so there’s aneed for connection. Soeven if theactivist isnotwriting, it’simportant for the scholars to study the activists and see how that impacts on thescholarship.Ihopethat’s...RO:So,Ithinkit’sjustaboutthethingsthatoureyeshaveseenandourhandshavehandled,wehaveROandAA:experiencedit.AA:So,itgivesamorepotentreadingtopeoplethatarecomingbehindwhoarereadingyourwork.Irememberthatthewritingsoftheinitialfeministsintheearlyworldwerebasedalsoontheirexperiencesofmaybeareportthattheyhaveseenonaparticularissue.Andthat’swhyyouhavepeoplelikeHilaryCharlesworth,31RebeccaCook,32andawholelotofthem.Andalsoofcoursefromthisside,andthat’swhyitwaseasywhenthetheoriesfrom theWesternworldwere not sounding like theAfrican contexts, then theAfricanfeministshadcometosay“No,youarenotspeakingforus.”Sothat’swhytheexperienceandtheactivismisimportanttobeabletoviewthecontextbecauseyes,thebackground,theideologyisclearabouttheissuesofmarginalizationandexclusionofwomen,butthecontext could be different, how exclusion and marginalization would manifest in theUnitedStatesofAmericawouldbedifferentfromhowitwouldmanifestintheDRC,theCongo or other places, and thatwaswhy therewere conversations aboutwhether theWestern conversation about feminism suits well. And so that’s why there aredevelopmentsaroundtheWesternfeminismandtheAfricanfeminism,butIthinkthattheideology is still remained the same, the contextmight be different, but thewritings of

31 HilaryCharlesworthisanAustralianfeministinternationallawscholarwithover6,950citations.(“HilaryCharlesworth.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Charlesworth)32RebeccaCookisaCanadianinternationalhumanrightslawyerwithaspecificfocusinthehumanrightsofwomen.(“RebeccaCook.”UniversityofTorontoFacultyofLaw.AccessedMay21,2020)https://www.law.utoronto.ca/faculty-staff/full-time-faculty/rebecca-cook)

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peoplelikeSaraLongwe,33peoplelikeOyewunmiOyeronke,34BolanleAwe,35youcanstillsee that there’s no fundamental difference in terms of the background ideologicalconversation, let’s take for example, Rebecca Cookwriting on sexual and reproductiverights and Bolanle Awe’swriting on sexual and reproductive rights. Both of them stillagreedonthesameissues,butthecontextsmightbedifferent,aparticularcontextmighthaveacceptedconversationsaroundabortion,whiletheothercontexthasnotacceptedconversations on abortion, based on tradition, religion, and what have you, but theunderliningprinciplesremain. I think thatbothsideshavebeenable to learn fromoneanother,andthatcanalsobeseeninsomeoftheregionalinstrumentsthatcameout.Forexample,whentheCEDAW36cameout,theAfricanssaid“Well,therearealltheissuesthattheCEDAWdidn’ttalkabout,theCEDAWdidn’ttalkaboutviolenceagainstwomen,whichisveryfundamentaltoAfricans,theCEDAWforgottotalkabouttheissueofwidows’rights,whichisfundamentalthoughtheCEDAWtalkedaboutruralwomen,butitdidn’ttalkaboutwidows’rights,whichisfundamentaltotheAfricanpeople.”TheCEDAWdidnottalkaboutdesertedwomen,whichisaseriousissueinAfricabecausealotofpeopleareabandoned,buttheAfricanProtocol37tookitintocognizanceallthoseissuesthattheCEDAWdidnottalk about. And it becomes a stronger document than the CEDAW. But the underlyingprincipleofboththeCEDAWandtheAfricanProtocolstillremainsthesame.RO: I thinkyouactuallybegan to talk aboutmynextquestion,which is really tounderstandAfricanfeminism.WhatisAfricanfeminism?AA:Well,Africanfeminismisakindof feminismthat looksatwomen’smarginalizationand exclusion and discriminations that women suffer from the context of Africa, thatbelievesthatthepatriarchalnormsinAfricacouldbestrongerthanthenormsinanyother

33 SaraLongweisaZambianconsultantongenderanddevelopmentanddescribesherselfasaradicalfeministactivist.SheservedasthechairmanofFEMNET,alsoknownastheAfricanWomen’sDevelopmentandCommunicationNetwork,from1997to2003.FEMNETworkstoaidNGOsthatcontributetoAfricangenderdevelopment.SheisalsotheauthoroftheLongweFrameworkforGenderAnalysis.(“SaraHlupekileLongwe.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Hlupekile_Longwe)34OyeronkeOyewunmiisaNigeriangenderscholarandSociologyprofessor.Herliteraryworkcentersaroundtheintersectionbetweenpostcolonialism,gender,andnon-Westerncultures.(“OyeronkeOyewumi.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyeronke_Oyewumi)35BolanleAweisaNigerianoralhistoryprofessor.(“BolanleAwe.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolanle_Awe).SeealsoherinterviewwiththeGlobalFeminismsProject.36CEDAWistheCommitteeontheEliminationofDiscriminationAgainstWomen.(“OutcomeofCEDAWReviewofNigeria:MoreActionNeededtoImplementtheWPSAgenda.”Women’sInternationalLeagueforPeaceandFreedom.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www.wilpf.org/outcome-of-cedaw-review-of-nigeria-greater-action-needed-to-implement-the-wps-agenda/)37TheAfricanProtocol,alsoknownastheMaputoProtocol,isaninternationalhumanrightscampaignestablishedbytheAfricanUnionin2003thatwentintoeffectin2005.Itguaranteescomprehensiverightstowomen,includingtherighttovote,socialandpoliticalequalitywithmen,increasedbodilyautonomy,andmarkedanendtofemalegenitalmutilation.(“MaputoProtocol.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maputo_Protocol)

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place.Andsofeministlearningandthinkingmustrespondtothatendemicnatureofthepatriarchalnorm.Andbecausethepatriarchalnormhasmanifestedindifferentways.SoAfricanfeminismistakingthiscontextascriticaltoaddressingtheproblemofwomenandgirlsinAfrica.RO: Do you see any, because youmentioned the word ideology, do you see anyideological differences between western feminism perceptions and Africanfeminismperspectives?AA:Ithinkittermsofideology,Ithinktheunderliningfactorismarginalization,exclusion,discrimination. And if those are the three keyswords that runs to affirm the feministideology, Ireallydon’tseeanydifferencebetweenwhataRebeccaCookwouldsayandwhatIwouldsay,orwhatRadhikaCoomaraswamy38willsayorwhatIwillsay.ButIthinkwhat will be different is the context within which I would say it. There are a lot ofmanifestationsofdiscriminationinAfricathatmightbedifferentfromwhathappensinthewesternworld.Therearealotofmanifestationsofexclusionthatwhenyoudescribeittoawesternfeminist,mightthink“Ohwe'vepassedthatlevel.”So,thecontextsaredifferentandtherearesomethattheywillsay,andwewillsay,“Areyouguysstilldealingwiththat?”So,mypointisthatthedangerofthatdichotomyishavinga“weandthem.”Anda“weandthem”wouldlikelynotbeideologicalbutitwouldbecontextual.RO:Sonext,wheredoyouseethepointthatyourworkintersectswiththewomen'smovement?Forinstance,maybeyouwanttolookatyourworkinthiscountryandthenglobally?AA: For example, I was recently appointed to the Global Feminist Movement as therepresentativeofAfricaandwehadameetinginAddis,about2weeksago,andwhenIspoke,Inoticedthatoneofthemsaid“Oh,youwereverydeepinyourconversation.”AndI thought inmymind that probablywhat Iwas talking about --wewere talking aboutwomen inconflictsettings--andIwastalkingabout the issuesofmigrationandclimatechangeasIsaidearlierandtheywerefindingthatconnectionquiteinteresting,itwasaconnectionthatwasnotmadeinitiallywhentherewereconversationsaboutsexualandreproductiverights,buttheconnectionIaroseasaresultofourworkinAfrica.So,thereare areas that, for example, areas of conflictwhere theAfrican feministsmight have abroaderknowledgebecausetheyfeelit,becausetheycanseeitandtheycanunderstanddifferentmanifestations of it than theWestern feminists. But there’s always a place ofconvergence,sofromtheworkIdo,fillinginthatinformationbecomesverycriticaland

38 RadhikaCoomaraswamyisaSriLankanlawyer,diplomat,andhumanrightsadvocatewhoservedastheSpecialRepresentativeforChildrenandArmedConflictintheUnitedNations.(“RadhikaCoomaraswamy.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhika_Coomaraswamy)

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veryimportant.We’regoingfortheICPD2539verysoonandsowhatwe’retryingtodoisconvenea global conversationbetweenAfrican,Asian, theAmericans, and thewesternworldtoseewhatlessonswecanlearnandIthinkthat’swhatweneedtodomoresothatwecanunderstandhowourworkconnects,theinterconnectivityoftheworkthatwedohere and the learnings thatwe canget to strengthen the ideology tounderstandmoreaboutthedifferentshadesoffeminismthatweareseeingastimegoeson.RO: And thenmaybe one of the last questions, what has been, for instance, theprogressionofthefeministmovementinNigeriainthelast3-4decades?AA:Well,Ithinkalothasbeendonebythewomen’smovementinthelast3-4years.Oneof the successeshasbeen thepassageof theViolenceAgainstPersonsProhibitionAct,which was the first time in 2015 when the government of Nigeria signed a law thatprohibitsviolenceagainstwomenandgirlsinthecountry.TherehasalsobeentheNationalGenderPolicy,40whichwassignedontoin2007,butbecameobsoletein2015.Wehavealsobeenabletocomeupwiththesexoffendersregister,whichwasnotthere,whereyoupeoplecanbegintodouble-checkwhentheywanttoemploypeoplewhethertheperson’snamehadappearedashavingcommittedanysexualoffencesbefore.Therehasalsobeenalotintermsofwomeninterveningaroundelectorallaw,theINEC41in2015hadsignedon to a genderpolicywhich is supportingwomenparticipationwithin INEC itself. Thewomen’smovementhasalsoworkedtoensurethatinstitutionsnowhavegenderpolicy.Therehasbeenalotofcollaborationandalliancebuildingbetweenwomen’smovementandtheprivatesectortotheextentthattherearealotofactivitiesthattheprivatesectorsarenowputtinginplacethatarerespondingtoissuesaroundgenderequality.Therehasalsobeenalotofchangeintermsofmediawritingswithrespecttogenderequalityissues,I’m aware that theEFCC42 has a genderpolicy likewise so someof the anti-corruptionagencieshavealsohadoneformofgenderpolicyortheother.Mostschoolsnow,unlikein

39 TheICDP+25istheInternationalConferenceonPopulationandDevelopment.Themostrecentconferencefocusedonsexualandreproductivehealthandrightsforwomenandgirlsglobally.(“InternationalConferenceonPopulationandDevelopment(ICPD+25).”WorldHealthOrganization.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www.who.int/news-room/events/detail/2019/11/12/default-calendar/international-conference-on-population-and-development-(icpd-25))40Nigeria’sNationalGenderPolicyaimedtoenddiscrimination,ensurefundamentalhumanrightstoallpeopleregardlessofgenderandcircumstance,andprotectthehealth,socio-economic,andpoliticalwell-beingofallcitizens.(“NationalGenderPolicy.”NCAA.AccessedMay20,2020.http://www.aacoalition.org/national_policy_women.htm)41INECistheIndependentNationalElectoralCommissioninNigeriaandwasformedastheelectoralbodythatoverseeselections.(“IndependentNationalElectoralCommission.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_National_Electoral_Commission)42TheEFCCistheEconomicandFinancialCrimesCommission,aNigerianlawenforcementagencywhosedutiesincludeinvestigatingfinancialcrimesandcorruption.(“EconomicandFinancialCrimesCommission.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_and_Financial_Crimes_Commission)

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5yearsago,nowhavethesexualharassmentpolicies,someofthemnowhadcreatedtheCenterforGenderStudies,whichwedidn’tusetohaveinthiscountrybefore.So,byandlarge,alotofprogresshasbeenmade.Andifyoulookatbetweenlike1999whenNigeriaenteredintothiscivilianspaceandnow,there’sbeenquiteanumberoflaws,particularlyatthestatelevels,maybeveryfewatthenational,butatthestatelevelstherehasbeenawholelotofnewlaws.Inmylastcount,therewereabout35differentlawsthathavebeenpassedatonetimeortheother.So,itlookslikelawmakinghasbecomeoneoftheavenuesthatNigeriaasacountryisusingtoaddressgenderequality.Nowwhatwethenneedtoworkmoreonishowtomakethoselawseffectivesothatitcanreallydefineandchangethelivesofwomen.RO:Okay,Ithinkthat’saverygreatevaluationofhowthingshavebeeninthelastfew decades, but then what would be your evaluation of the development offeminismingeneralinNigeria?AA:Well, I thinkoneofthechallengesthatwe’rehavingasacountryisthatIthinkthefeministgroupingthatwehaveisnotveryeffective.WehaveaNigerianFeministForum,but the Forum has not been very effective and I think it’s due to lack of properunderstanding also by the groupwho is the Secretariat of the Forum, becausewe areaccusedthatwecannotachieveafeministcommunitywhenwedon’topenthedoorsoffeminismtoallowasmanypeopleaspossibletobeabletoenter,learningtheideologies.Theremustbesomeminimumstandard,butwecannotclosethedoorsofideology.Peopleread,evenbecomingfeministsbyreadingandunderstandingandthinkingthat“OhIthinkthisisanideathatIwanttobepartof.”Youcanalsobecomeafeministideologue43bywhatyoudo and someonenoticingwhat youdo and saying that youneed to be part of thefeministmovementandallofthat.So,Ithinkwehavedone,awholelotofyearsback,“weandthem”wehadinvestedtoomuchtimeinsaying“thisisagroupofwomen’srights”“thisisagroupoffeminists.”So,Ithinkthere’saneedforustoclosethatgap.Wecannotachievea feministworld ifwedon’t get asmanypeopleaspossible tounderstand,wecannotbespeakingtoourselves.Ifwecontinuespeakingtoourselves,wewillnothaveafeministcommunity.A‘community’isacommunitywhoisreadytoconfrontpeoplewiththeideologiesandwinthepeopleover.Themorefeministsweget,thelikelihoodofhavinga feministsociety, the likelihoodofhavingpeople in leadershipwhobelieve in feministideology.So,Ithinktheproblemthatwearehavingisacountryisthatwedon’twanttoopenupfeminismtoothers.Webelievethatsomepeopleknowaboutthisandwealsodon’twanttotoleratepeople‘sweaknessesinunderstanding.Letmegiveanexampleof

43 Anideologueisastrongadvocateofaspecificideology(“Ideologue.”Merriam-Webster.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ideologue)

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what I’m trying to say. The feminist platform has had conversations on, for example,LGBTQ.Andyougetalotofpeoplecometosay,“Weshouldnotbediscussingthat,Idon’tthinkit’safeministdiscussion.”Nowforme,IwillnotshutdownsuchapersonbutratherIwill put an argument on “Whydo you thinkwe shouldnot discuss it?” andproffer agreaterargumentonwhyweshoulddiscussit.IfIamabletoconvincethepersonIhavewononemorevoteforthefeministmovementbutifI’mnotabletotoleratethepersonthat I have lost maybe a potential feminist. So, the argument has always been thateverybody must be at the same level and I feel that you cannot subject your ownconsciousnesstotheconsciousnessofotherpeople.Theprocessoffeminismisaprocessoflearning,nobodywasbornafeminist,peoplegrewuptolearnfeminism.So,wemustopenuptoallowpeopletolearnandunlearnfeminism.Sothat’smyownideology,soIwillnotcondemnanybodywhoclaimstobeafeministbutwhoisnotclearabouttheideology,butrather Iwouldsay“doyouwant toreadabookonthatsubjectmatter thatwearediscussing?Maybewhenyoureadit,wecancomebackforfurtherdiscussion,”butIwillnotsay“Becauseyoudidn’tmeetmeatmypointofknowledge,thatmakesyoualesserperson.” Feminism should also allow people tomake choices on areas they think theybelieveinwhilewetryasmuchaspossibletoconvincethemonthoseotherareasthatwethinkarenon-negotiable inconversationsof feminism.People’sbeliefandconversationcanbeinfluencedbyawholelotofthings,whattheysee,whattheyhear,wherethey’recomingfrom,wheretheylive,andasfeministswemustrecognizethat.Thatwomenarenot homogeneous that we also are different and that is why we see people speak ofdifferent strands of feminism. What that means in particular is that there’s really nogeneralagreement.Peoplehaveadifferentopinion,butweallhavethosethreeunderliningideologicalunderstandings.So,Iwouldaskifyousayyouareafeminist,Iwillaskyouwhatisyourunderstandingofdiscriminationagainstwomen,what isyourunderstandingofmarginalization and exclusion ofwomen, do you think abortion excludes the rights ofwomen?Sothat’sthekindofconversationIwanttohavewithyouandIwouldratherbeinterestedmoreinbringingyoutooursidethaninlosingyoutotheothersidebecauseIthinkwereallyhaveawholelotofpeopleontheothersidethatwhatweneedtodoistobringthemtothisside.Orelse,itwouldjustbehavingafeministconversationwilljustbe:Oh,wewon’tbeabletogetwomenindecisionmakingonthebasisofnotbeingabletogetthemtoagreeonthetheory.NowifyoulookatSouthAfrica,forexample,SouthAfricanParliamentisoneoftheparliamentsthatpeoplecallafeministparliament,butstillyet,theyarenotallfeminists.Butwhydotheycallthemafeministparliament?Someofthemmightnotevencall themselvesa feminist. It isbecauseof thekindofdecision that thewomen in that parliament has been able to make in terms of addressing exclusion,marginalization,anddiscrimination.So,mypointisthatinacountrylikeNigeriahowdowegettothatlevelifwehavealotofassumptionsandbiasesandweexcludewomentohavea feelandanunderstandingof the ideology.Wearenotopeningupconversation,

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callingasymposiumanddirectingthesymposium44tobeabletogetsomebodytosay“Oh,todayIrealizethatthisisthewaythisconversationismade.”Thenforustokeepshuttingpeopleoutbecausetheyarenotwellgroundedwiththeideology.SoIbelongtothatschoolofthought,thatifyourideologyisgood,ifyourideologyisconvincing,throwitoutthere,let it be debated and if you debate and your conversation won the debate, it furtheraffirmedthefactthatyourideologyisclearandiscorrect.RO:Thankyou.Ihopeyouwillpermitmetoaskmorequestions,thisshouldhavebeenthelastquestion,butthenanotheronecameupsoIwillasktheonethatcameupwithinyourresponse.So,religionisabigthing inNigeriaandtherearemorewomen participants, both in the twomajor religions, Islam and Christianity. So,wouldyousaythatreligionhashelpedthecauseoffeminism,gender,participationinNigeria?AA: In Nigeria, religion has not helped feminism at all, rather it has drawn back theideology. But women within religion, we have the feminist Muslimah who are mostlywomenwhoarefeministsandwhattheytrytodoistoreadtheKoraninamannerthatchangestheopinionforfeministconversation.IknowthatorganizationslikeWRAPA45hasdonea lot inthatregard.BAOBAB46 forwomen’shumanrightshasdoneawhole lotofconversationonhowKoran reflects feminist principles. In theChristianworld too, theCatholics for example. I have a lot of feminist sisters who have also tried asmuch aspossibletoreadtheBibleinamannerthatwouldespousefeministprinciples.Butstillyetthatseemstobelikeamajorareaandwhatwetrytoalsotellfeministswhoarewithinthosereligionsistoensurethatwealsohaveagoodunderstandingofthereligionandreaditinamannerthatcanbettersuitfeministdiscourse.ButinNigeriathereligionhasbeenamajorconversationandhasconstitutedmajorbacklashforfeminists.IrememberthattherewasadaythatIwasonairtospeakaboutabortionandbeforeIgotback,IstartedgettingcallsfromCatholicsandallthattosay“Whatdoyouthinkyouaretalkingabout?Isthiswhatyourfeminismisallabout?”andallofthat,soit’samajorissue.Irememberthattherewasanewspaperarticlethatpickedmeupandsaid.onthefrontpage,thatIsaid,“Ibelieve inabortion”and theyputmynameon it.And Iwasgoing to the church in the

44 Asymposiumisasocialgatheringinwhichideasarefreelyexchanged(“Symposium.”Merriam-Webster.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/symposium)45WRAPAistheWomen’sRightsAdvancementandProtectionAlternativebasedinAbuja,Nigeria.Itisafemale-focusedNGOwhosemissionitistoactualizethelegalrightsofwomeninpublicandprivatespaces.ItwasrecentlyawardedaMacArthurAwardforCreative&EffectiveIntuitionsforitsanti-corruptionefforts.(“Women’sRightsAdvancementandProtectionAlternative.”MacArthurFoundation.AccessedMay20,2020.https://www.macfound.org/grantees/885/)46BAOBABisanorganizationheadedbyfemalelawyersandlegalactivistswhosespecialtyliesinNigerianIslamiclaw.(“MuslimWomen’sRightsinNorthernNigeria.”WilsonCenter.AccessedMay21,2020.https://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/media/documents/publication/Muslim%20Women%27s%20Rights%20Northern%20Nigeria%20-%20FINAL.pdf)

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morningandIfoundalltheeldersinthechurchwerewaitingformetoaskmewhetherIreallysaidthatandwhenIwasreadytodoarejoinder.IsaidtothemthatIwasn’tgoingtodoarejoinder.Isaideverythingthatwasquoted,thattheyshouldgoandreadthefulldocumenttounderstandthecontextthatthatwassaid,butIwillnotdoarejoinder.Ifyoudon’twantmetoenterthechurch,fortunatelytherewasanotherchurchnext-door.I’llbewillingtogotochurchnext-door,whatwasimportantformewastobeable]tocometochurchforthatmorning.So,mypointisthatreligionisamajorthing.Alotoffeministssitin the church and they get very annoyed and the religion is also very, Christianity forexampleandMuslimreligion,westillhaveveryfewwomenwhostandattherostrum,whotalkaboutsomeoftheseissuesso,youstillgettohearthisoldconversation.Buttherehasbeenalotofdiscussions,conversations.Thereisasidebysidemovementthatisbringingmenwhoareinreligiouscircleswithwomentotalkaboutsomeoftheseissuesaroundthereligion.Andgradually,wearealsogettingsomepastorswhoarechangingandwhoarealsoleadingfeministconversations.RO:Okay,great.So,thiswillbereallythefinal,finalquestion,maybeitmighthavealittlepart.ButIwillaskyouabigquestion,youstartedalready,evenfromtheoutset,totalkaboutconnectionsoftheworkonfeminism,activism,andgenderissuesinNigeria andat the global level.Howdid these connections comeabout and then,whatdotheymeanforyourwork?Andthen,haveyoubeenabletomakeasenseoutofthedifferencesandsimilaritiesinthekindsofissuesraisedonapproachestakenbyactivists,scholars,andorganizationsinresolvingtheissues?AA:Well,thereareissuesthatcomeupintheworkwedo,forexamplewehavelostliketwograntsbecauseofourstandonsexualandreflectiverights.Andunfortunately,thosegrants are very huge grants that help to pay about 50% of the salaries of staff of theorganization.WhereweareaccusedofworkingwiththeCenterforReproductiveRights,whichisnotanaccusation,wedo.Whichtheyfeelareontheextremewithissuesofsexualreproductiverightsandwewereaskedtowritealettertodenounceouraffiliationwithorganizationsworking inreproductiverightswhichsherefused.So,wehad to lose thegrants. The global gag rule47 affected us as an organization. Some of the groups thatsupportedreproductiverightshavechangedtocorruptionandanticorruptionandawholelot of other things. So, we look at what's the effect of that to the future of the wholeconversationofwomen’srights.It’slikeleavingtheissuebecauseIdon’tknowwhatelseIcan speakaboutwomen’s rights ifwedon’t speakabout their sexual and reproductiverightsbecauseit’sonemajoractual lifethingforwomen,therighttobeabletomakea

47 TheGlobalGagRule,alsoknownastheMexicoCitypolicy,isaUnitedStatesgovernmentpolicythatblocksU.S.federalfundingforNGOsthatadvocateforthedecriminalizationofabortionortheexpansionofabortionservicesorprovideabortioncounselingorreferrals.(“MexicoCityPolicy.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay20,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_policy)

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choiceoftheirbodilyintegrity.Soinourworkwehadtoloseourfundersbecauseofourstand, but because we are committed to what we are doing, we believe that beingconsistentaboutourwork,andbeingknownforwhatwedo,andwhatwestandfor,it’scritical to any other thing. So that iswhy Iwould agree that yes, thiswhole thing hasaffectedtheworkwedo,andIcanalsoimagineintheworkthatalotofpeopledo.Forexample, theglobal gag rulehas affectedmoreorganizations, has stifledorganizations’abilitytobeabletogetsupportfromtheUSandfromdonoragenciesthatworkwiththem.AndbyimplicationmeaningthatwomeninUganda,womeninNigeriawhoaccessgroupslikeMarieStopes48…MarieStopeswascloseddownhere,itwascloseddowninNigeriaandUgandaandsomeotherplaces.Sowhatitmeansisthatiftheytakesuchstepsthatwillhaveaffectwomenwhousedtohaveaccesstoabortion,thatmeanstheywon’tbeabletohaveanyonetogoto,anywheretogotoandbyimplication,morewomenwilldiebecausetheywouldhavetogotothosewhoarenotwelltrainedtodotheabortionandallthat.SoformeIthinkthatitshowsthatthesociety,becauseifthatishappeningnow,itshowsthatthesocietyisnotmovingintherightprogressiontosupporttherightsofwomenandthat’swhy it’s important thatweneed tobuild amovement and there shouldbe somemorealliancebuildingtobeabletoaddressthisglobally.Thebiggerorganizationsshouldbereadytosupportthesmallerorganizations.Therewillcontinuetobemoreorganizationsupportinthewomenbecausewehavesuchahugepopulationandourissueshavenotbeenaddressedenoughbytheexistingorganization.So,there’saneedforyoungpeople,astheyarealsogrowingupfasterthansomeofuswiththetechnologyandawholelotofotherthings.So,theymightactuallyhavemoreopportunitytodothethingsthatwedidn’tdotogetacrosstoasmanypeopleaspossible,morethanwecan.So,meaningthatthereisa need for that intergenerational discussion, feminist discussion so thatwehavemorepeople,webuildmorepeoplethatwillcontinuewiththeagendasothattheycanachievetheiragendafasterthanwecanimagine.RO:So,whatIhearyousayisthatyoufindsolidarityintheworkthatyoudoandother organizations on the global context. So, the fact that this clamp down onfunding is happeninghere, youalsohave connectionswithorganizations abroadthatmightbeexperiencingthesame.AA:Yes,sotheglobalgagruleisnotonly,theclampdownisnotonlyagainstus,wealsoknowthatthereareseveralorganizations,particularlythoseorganizationswhoworkoncorewomen’sbodilyintegrityissueswhodefinesissueofsexualandreproductiverights,who thinks that women should have right to abortion, who canvass for the issue ofwomen’s bodily integrity. So the clamp down is global, itmight be feltmore in Africa

48MarieStopeswasaBritishauthor,paleobotanistandardentsupportofeugenicsandwomen’srights.Sheisknownforherworkonbirthcontrolaccess.(“MarieStopes.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay20,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Stopes)

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becausewehaveveryfewfundsandveryfewsupportersbutwhatIthinkalsoneedstobedoneisalsothatthebiggerorganizationshouldlendsupporttothesmallorganizationsastheyexperiencetheclampdown.AndIthinkIamnotseeingenoughofthat,itlookslikeeverybody’sscamperingtogettheirownsupportsowhereasmallerorganizationinAfrica,wheretheylosetheirfundinginthatregard,findingaplacethenmightbecomelikeabigproblem.So,meaningthatcouldintimidateothersandthatcouldshutdownthevoicesofothers.Forusitwasdifficult,butIthinkwearepushingthroughwithnewinnovationsandwithnewfundingcoming.Whiletheysayno,wealsoseetheUNsupportinitiativesayingyestoissuesofsexualreproductiverights.Wearealsoseeingotherorganizationssayingyes,liketheFordFoundation,49toissuesofsexualandreproductiverights.Sowhatwedois also look and shop around to those who can support our belief, rather than uscompromising our beliefs because we know if we compromise it’s going to affect themajorityofwomeninNigeria,inAfrica,andwehaveaneffectontheglobalmovementforsolidarityandliberationofwomenfromthehandsofgenderinequalityandinjusticethatwehavesufferedalltheyears.RO:Alright,sofinal,finalnow,thingsthatIhaven’taskedthatyoujustwanttospeakabout?Finalnotes.AA:Well,IthinkthatalliancebuildingisimportantforthefeministmovementtogrowandIthinkalsothattheremustbeminimumstandardsofdefiningwhowewanttobringtothefold, butwemust alsobeveryopen todebates.Thatmightbeuncomfortable tous, toconfrontationsthatwedon’texpectfromsomeangles,butwemustjustbeconsistentandcommittedandIthinkwithinashortperiodoftimetherealityoflifewouldmakepeopletounderstandthatfeministsolidarityisimportant,it’skeyandit’sasolutiontotheglobalproblem.RO:Allright,thankyousomuch!AA:You’rewelcome.

49TheFordFoundationisanAmericanprivatefoundationwhosemissionistoadvancethestateofhumanrightsandwelfare.(“FordFoundation.”Wikipedia.AccessedMay20,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Foundation)