The Truth About Hypnosis · The Truth About Hypnosis by Jim Katsoulis and Tellman Knudson Transcription with Special Guest Kenrick Cleveland, Creator of Persuasion Factor

The Truth About Hypnosis

by Jim Katsoulis and Tellman Knudson

Transcription with

Special Guest Kenrick Cleveland,

Creator of Persuasion Factor

http://www.truthabouthypnosis.com/persuasion

Discover The 9 Most Powerful (and well hidden) Secrets of Hypnosis at:

www.TruthAboutHypnosis.com Page 2

Jim: Alright everyone. Welcome to the truth about hypnosis. My name is Jim Katsoulis and

this week, we're gonna be talking to Kenrick Cleveland, and for more than two and a half decades, Kenrick has dedicated himself to perfecting the techniques and the skills, and I think, you're gonna hear the “art.” You know, he’s really an artist (a persuasion artist, I think) of influence and persuasion.

He draws from a diversified career base that includes extensive sales and business

background, but also coupled with an equally extensive experience in neuro-linguistic programming or NLP and hypnosis. He has created a model of persuasion that is so effective that it truly, in my opinion, remains one of the benchmarks of excellence in this entire field. He’s a real, real expert at it.

He kinda started his career of success here when he set the world’s record in health spa membership sales, and he’s gone on to consult with a lot of companies helping to just shatter existing sales records. He’s really such a benchmark of this area that when Jay Abraham was putting his Protégé Training to teach the skills of marketing that made him famous, he asked Kenrick to teach these guys, these high level consultants, how to use persuasion skills; and each of these people paid 20 grand to attend, and Jay is one of the best of the best, and he got Kenrick. I mean, because really, really, he’s master of persuasion and what Jay said of Kenrick, I think, is a great quote that “Kenrick holds the key to sales success undreamed of by most sales people, and I can tell you from a personal standpoint of being a salesperson, that Kenrick literally, completely transformed the way that I thought of sales and hypnosis and NLP and persuasion. So, I'm very excited to have him on here today. He continues to train top level producers and to advance their skills of influence and persuasion through his courses that he has, and his coaching program which we’ll talk a little about today as well. Kenrick, how are you doing?

Kenrick: I'm doing great, Jim. Thanks for having me on the call. Jim: Great, thanks for being on the call. Let’s just jump right in. What’s your background in

sales and persuasion, and how did you get started with hypnosis?



Kenrick: Jim, let me tell you. No, I'm just kidding. Look, I started off… I was at the rightful age of

18, and I had the good fortune of having studied in the first part of that year the standard hypnosis methods that were available and had all the certifications that one could have at that point. And I’d learned enough to realize that what I had, I just didn't feel really comfortable as I'm sure a lot of you listeners can relate to. And I got lucky, and I met Richard Bandler, and that surely was an event that changed my life.

I wish I had a lot of time to tell you. He did one of the most incredible things to me ever in the first seminar. He used an arm levitation induction, and knocked me out, and programmed me to be an NLP trainer which was what I'd asked him to do. And, boy, did it ever have the effect that I was looking for and more, and I'd never experienced anything like it in my entire life, and I had done hypnosis very, very well for quite some time. So, I went on, I studied with John Grinder at the practitioner level. I went to Leslie Cameron-Bandler and got my master programmer certificate. I went back to Richard and did master practitioner, and then went on with Richard to be a trainer and that was back in the days when it was by invitation only based on original contribution to the field. And so, it wasn't like it is today where you can pay a few thousand dollars and walk away with a certificate.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: It was incredible but then I went on and I found Carol Erickson, and that's when I think

that all the training that I had in NLP really started bringing the rest of these skills to life; and I did every program that she had several times. I think she’s just an incredible and marvelous woman. I don't know if I think of her quite as a mother, maybe like a mother, maybe more important than a mother, I don't know but I think she truly changed my life. And it was with those skills that I began to really see the correlation. I understood exactly what the originators of NLP did with them as they brought hypnosis into the world of a more codified therapy.

But that wasn't my love, Jim, as you know. I did it, I had a clinic, I did all those things. I

was a hypnotist. But then, I was working in the role of a trainer back in the old days, so to speak, and I started sort of training other people in these skills. I brought them into the health spa industry and set more records. You mentioned one of them but I set all the



rest of them that were possible to set, too, including “Highest Grand Opening Month,” and on and on. And I did that very simply by using these skills in the training of other people.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: So, the results started compounding in a really big way; and I realized, at that moment,

that I was really on to something huge. So, I just kept on and, eventually, I translated all of these skills and conducted a training with Home Fed Savings and Loan, and this is the largest NLP Bank training ever.

We converted Home Fed Savings and Loan into Home Fed Bank, and under the

guidance of Richard Bandler, and now, with my good friend, Paul Donner, I hired and trained all of the trainers, I wrote all of the training, and I did all the modeling of their top people and that was credited with increasing their net deposits by over $1 billion in the year that we trained them. So, actually, that was a big claim to fame, in a sense.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: But with that, I realized that I’ve really found what I love. I've always loved business and I

had some profound realizations along the way, and realized that I'd really hit on a way to learn hypnosis for people who wanna learn that, which is kinda side by side with persuasion. So, that's kind of a synopsis.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: More than you wanted to hear. Jim: No, it’s not, actually. I can go listen to you all day. It’s funny because one of the things I

love about your approach and I would love to see more of it, is that … you know, so often, people just kinda use hypnosis as its thing and what I love about you is that you took this field that's so powerful and you applied it to another field that's well understood, sales and business.

And I thought that was profound, in a sense, because it was so much powerful, it turbo-

charged a lot of it; and I think it makes a lot of what you do very practical and real. So, it’s not theoretical. It’s always very real … I found with what you do.



Alright, Kenrick, let me ask you, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions that people have about hypnosis, in general, that's kind of harmful to it?

Kenrick: Okay, sure. Alright, well, first, that it’s evil. You know, I don't buy it. I was raised a

Fundamentalist Christian and I was told that if I allowed myself to be hypnotized, I'd meet the devil, the devil would have control of my mind, yadi, yadi, yada.

First time I had hypnosis done to me, I realized I did not meet the devil, I did not have

anything evil happen; and, in fact, my mind was sharper and clearer and better than before, and [inaudible] what other things I had learned that weren’t so and moved on in that area in my life as well. So, you know, it’s not evil and that's a big misconception.

Another big misconception, I think, Jim, is that it’s instant, and it’s not. Hypnosis is not

instant. It’s fast, it’s effective, it’s powerful; but, it’s not instant. And it takes some skills. You can't just bore people into a trance like counting backwards, you know, and saying deeper, deeper, deeper between each number. I mean, you just can't do it.

I remember thinking when I was around 17 and there was a guy I really liked. He

published a course, and I saved all of my pennies, and I bought it; and the guy gave a whole bunch of examples of the way he would do hypnosis. He had this patter that he did, and I'll save all of you listeners here a whole bunch of time and money.

You know, here was his example of smoking. “You will not smoke. You do not like to smoke. Smoking is bad and harmful and you know it. Smoking is wrong. You don't like it. You stop. You never ever touch another cigarette as long as you live. You wanna throw up if you put another cigarette to your mouth.” Okay, well, great. You know, hypnotists tend to have this patter where they can talk about nonsense.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: Or actually one subject, let’s put it that way, but indefinitely, and they think it matters.

That is not the way to do hypnosis. It’s a misconception. You can a buy a book of language, of suggestions, if you will, and hope that you get someone into a trance and so you read it to them.

Jim: Right.



Kenrick: You know, that doesn't happen. Hypnosis isn’t something where you look in someone’s eye in a special way. That's also another misconception. It is an interaction. It is a conversation.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: It also is something that does not require a clinical setting, in the least, and this is the

whole basis of my work. Jim: Because you do persuasion, I mean, I have my own practice. I was working one on one

with people in a clinical sense. You know, it’s funny because I started out with … a lot of times, you get trained in just straight hypnosis. It’s almost like they train you to what I call a “scriptnotist.”

You, basically, just put them into this thing, you do what you're told to do, and you bore them to death, and then you just read stuff to them, and you don't know what’s working; you don't know what’s happening. You just kinda hope that something you say is gonna make a difference. And a lot of what you said … once I started to learn about how to be able to persuade people … and even though you were doing a sales session, a lot of my sessions became this back and forth with them, and I just kinda capped it up with about 10 minutes of hypnosis at the end. This kind of solidified it, but a lot of the changes actually happened in the beginning.

What is your definition? I mean, what is your explanation of hypnosis? What is hypnosis if it’s not this state of a person closing his eyes and breathing slowly? What is hypnosis and how do you use it to create changes in someone?

Kenrick: And, by the way, that's my definition of sleep. I think it’s very useful and most people don't get enough so you might be well helping your clients to induce it. My definition of hypnosis is a relationship in which you as the therapist are using everything you see and hear from this client to be the way shower and help them change their behavior.

I believe that hypnosis is, in its highest and best form, persuasion. What you're really

doing is you are … and listen, persuasion in its best form is not you doing something to



someone else, it’s them believing that they are doing the work and that they have come up with a better solution.

The greatest hypnotists in the world, the greatest persuaders in the world don't need to

use formal hypnosis to do anything, and I would dare say that towards the end of what you're talking about with your practice, you were training the results long before you ever put them into a trance. That was just what they expected so you did it to equal their expectation. That's good persuasion, my friend, that's good persuasion.

Jim: Sure, sure. Kenrick: So, little to do with hypnosis but, you know, if someone has an expectation … let me give

you great one. This is a great one. As a hypnotist, ask someone this question. This is really good. Write this down for everyone listening. Ask him, “So, you've chosen to come here today and talk with me about hypnosis, but you didn't come here to talk to me. You came here today because deep inside, there's something driving you to change. There's something that makes you wanna change, and whatever reason, you have the insight, the foresight, the recognition that hypnosis could help. Would you tell me, what did you expect to happen? And what did you think that would cause?”

And listen closely because they're probably going to say something like, “Well, I figured

you'd sit down and you'd tell me to close my eyes, and I'd be kinda afraid but I'd close my eyes and then, magically, I'd be transported to some place in my mind and you would say the suggestions that would get me to change and I'd feel a lot better.”

And I say to that, “Excellent, wow, you've really, really … you're either very intuitive or you've really done some looking into this because that's precisely how this works. So, I would like to proceed. Are you ready? It’s now the time. Now is the time. Alright, close your eyes and let’s prepare to transport to that special place.” And off we go. And I then tell them in my own nice and indirect way that they’ve heard exactly what they needed to hear, and I've used all the good suggestion formats and the strategies and presto, they will have heard it, and I will have said it; and they will get the results they want. It doesn't always happen that fast but that's an example of utilization. This is what Erickson was totally famous for, utilization.



And, by the way, I still kick myself. When I figured out what this man could do and I was really young … I figured out what he could do and I decided, “That's it. I'm gonna train with him.” But I didn't have any money.

I mean, I remember having this awakening. “You mean every word you say directs people in ways they don't know? You mean every word?” And when he answered, “Yes,” I thought, how was that possible that one could evaluate that much of what they say that quickly?

Jim: Right.

Kenrick: But I decided I would do it and you know what happened? He died. Jim: Right. Kenrick: And to this day, if I could go back and change one thing in my life … and I knew he

wouldn’t want to teach me because I wasn't a medical doctor or a psychiatrist. But I knew also, Jim, that I could persuade my way in.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: Bandler and Grinder did. Jim: Right, right, exactly. That's a great point. Kenrick: Yeah, so I was gonna get in there. There wasn't a doubt. I was gonna get in. He was

gonna train me one way or the other, and I figured any word he said to me would be a training … you know, I would learn from, right? Okay, you yell at me. I don't care what you wanna do but you're going to teach me.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: But that was a bitter sorrow. That's one thing I wish I could change. And, you know what,

I think if there's a lesson in life for that … you know, sometimes, we don't think we're ready, or we don't think it’s the right time, or whatever; and I think, when we get right down to it, we just have to do what we have to do or accept the results that we're getting.



Jim: Sure.

Kenrick: And that's the bottom line. And that's the exact thing I would say to your clients as well. You know, when they’re saying [inaudible] 15:54 but you charge how much?

Jim: Right. That's a good point. Let me ask you. You just kinda hit on something … again,

the people listening to this call are all on the spectrum of their knowledge of hypnosis. One thing I think you bring special to it and I think NLP kinda brings to it is this understanding of a deeper structure of how things are working. But explain a little bit of … because I think, most of the time, people have this idea of hypnosis and usually what they’ve seen and not even lot of hypnotists I think, understand direct hypnosis. What’s the difference between direct and indirect hypnosis?

Kenrick: Okay, really good question. Direct hypnosis is the old-fashioned, old style, more or less

worthless method of ordering clients about. Now, I don't know about you but I will not tolerate being ordered about by anybody; anybody who tries it will see real quickly that that's not going to work, okay?

There's a difference between ordering someone about and being an authoritative voice

in the subject area that the person is looking for and needs, a big difference. And direct authoritarian hypnosis is literally ordering people about.

Now, and slightly in defense of that, let me just say that if you are a medical doctor, or a

psychiatrist which is a medical doctor with a specialty degree, or some other well-known and already accepted expert, you already have a large degree of authoritarian behavior already programmed into you that will allow you to be very successful at this.

For example, medical doctors know well. All they have to do is suggest the person is

going to get sick or get well in an x amount of time, and they may be able to do that. I lost well over 120 pounds so far simply by a doctor telling me that I would never, ever get better, that I would never be able to beat this.

And I told him that if he wanted to keep his you know what for long, he’ll never speak to

me that way again. And he looked at me like I was crazy, and I looked at him like he was crazy, and I promptly proceeded to do what he told me I couldn’t do.



Yes, look, I'm not stupid. I realized that’s a polarity response but I used it to my advantage. I knew how I was responding but I wanted to respond that way. I don't like to be ordered around. Most clients will not accept it from most hypnotists. So, that kind of makes direct authoritarian stuff moot.

What’s the alternate? It’s the indirect permissive style that is the hallmark of Dr. Milton

Erickson. That is his hallmark. That's what he’s known for. What it is? It’s a strategy of utilizing what you see and hear from your client. It’s a strategy of being permissive in your language. It’s a strategy of leading people, not ordering them.

So, if for example, I could say to you using direct authoritarian method, “Jim, I'm going

to count backwards from five to one and at the count of one, you're going to close your eyes and immediately go into a very deep and profound hypnotic trance.” That's direct authoritarian.

I could do it the other way. I could say, “Jim, you're sitting there, you're listening to what I'm talking. You're thinking about the kinds of things that you think about when you hear these words. Knowing that you're here to create some change and that hypnosis is the medium, you may begin to think about the idea of what it would be like to be in a trance, to hear the things you need to hear, to go to where you need to go in order to achieve these results now, Jim. And I don't know if it’s gonna happen in this minute, but I do know that this is something that you want and let’s see how we can make that happen.”

And so, I'm talking more indirectly. I'm using, by the way, trying to stay very, very clear, avoiding metaphors and all kinds of things at this moment just to make a very clear example between a permissive indirect approach and a very direct and authoritative approach.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: One works well, the other only works for the mind of the hypnotist, and you mentioned

something a little bit ago, a scriptnotist. I've never heard that word but I absolutely love it. I'm going to borrow it liberally, if you don't mind. Let me tell you the reason that scriptnotists don’t have much of an impact. It’s because … how can you interact with somebody if you're not even looking at them and you're reading?

Jim: That's profound but it’s there, it’s right there.



Kenrick: Even on a phone call like this, you know, you ask me a question, I'm answering. I ask

you a question, you answer. We're interacting. Jim: Right. Kenrick: If I had in front of me a whole script for this, you think maybe you'd know it. You think, maybe, I wouldn’t be really paying attention and that's the problem. Jim: Sure. Kenrick: That's the problem, okay. So, the opportunity in working live with somebody is that you

get to see them, to hear them, to touch them. You get the opportunity of interacting with them, and getting inside their head, and watching, and listening for what your suggestions and your language is doing for them or not. That's the privilege, that's the honor of working with someone one on one, and as you get them a little bit more trained, you can certainly get them to make changes with results in audio and that kind of thing as well.

Jim: Sure. You know, not only that but it’s funny because if most people are familiar with the

direct and a lot of hypnotists are familiar with it, it limits that ability to a specific setting because you can't go to your wife or a family member or a friend and say, “Do that,” that direct hypnosis stuff to them because they’ll rebel against it. But as soon as you start learning indirect, it’s frees you to use it all day long in every single piece of interaction you have with anyone that makes it much (overlay)

Kenrick: That's right and that's what I call persuasion. Jim: Sure. Kenrick: Conversational hypnosis, if you will, but listen, they’ve done tests where they’ve taken

people off the street and said, “Look, I know you have no training in psychology or psychiatry, but I'd like you to just go help. These people need some help. Would you go listen to them and do your best to help them?”

These people did better or, at least, as good if not better as actual psychologists did in

trying to help people. Go figure. So, I mean, a kind, caring, and concerned human



being can do wonders. I mean, listen, physical touch can do wonders for somebody. You know, someone who has not had much physical touch, if they start getting it, they can absolutely have life transforming experiences, not that any of you hypnotists should go around touching people inappropriately.

But that also holds true in my world with hypnosis. When you learn how to talk

conversationally and use all the strategies of persuasion, you'll do more than the guy who spends six months to try to learn how to do direct authoritarian, or a year or whatever the case is; and it doesn't matter how you dress it up or dress it down, direct authoritarian is direct authoritarian, and I've got no problem with its use provided that it’s a small portion of what’s going on.

At the middle of the session, if you were to issue a few minutes’ worth of direct

authoritarian suggestions, no problem, go for it. Go for it. It’s good. Let them have directly what they need but, at that point, consciousness is set aside. At that point, you're not getting resistance to what you do. Erickson in his prime, in his peak used some direct authoritarian suggestions when a person’s consciousness was already set aside, so to speak.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: So, it’s not that he was horribly opposed to it, but the older he got, the less of it he used

and the more he tended to talk in metaphors but very indirect. Jim: You know, it’s funny because we talked to Dr. Brian Alman who had trained with him

and I said to him, “You know, did he ever talk like “normal?” Did he really get regular conversation? And he started laughing, it’s like no. He was always, always, kind of doing this indirect stuff to you all the time so it was kind of funny that he said that.

There are some people, again, you know, they're interested in hypnosis. To me,

personally, I think NLP is gotta be a component of truly understanding it as deep as you can. What’s your definition of what the difference between NLP and hypnosis is and their relationship together?

Kenrick: Sure, a really good question. I love it when someone thinks really strongly like this and

asks questions that are profound. That's wonderful. Listen, the answer is very, very clear. Hypnosis is a body of knowledge … let’s take the direct authoritarian version. It’s



a body of knowledge in which people are thinking that “here’s how you do it.” The indirect permissive style is another body of knowledge albeit it works.

Then NLP came along and said, “We want to model the profound therapists out there

that get results all the time, and we wanna come up with a therapeutic model or we want to bring more of an integrated model so that therapists can get better results. Well, who did they go and model? To begin with, Milton Erickson and a few others as well, Virginia Satir and a few other really good ones, Fritz Perls, etc.

And what they found is an awful lot of similarities between the really great therapists. NLP’s original goal was to model the great therapists and bring together a better model. So, hypnosis is a model, direct authoritarian is a model, and indirect permissive style is a model, and NLP was a model that tried to show up how some of these other models work. And, as a result, a lot of techniques came flying out from that whole experience NLP started setting out. Here are some similarities between these great therapists and between the models they are using. So, soon, NLP became known as a separate model, but, in reality, it’s a model of other models, if you will look it at that way, and that's the term “metamodel,” but it’s a model of other models of therapy. NLP doesn't proclaim to be hypnosis. It doesn't claim to be behavioral therapy. It is its own thing as a result of blending together other therapies. But what it blended, what it exposed really was the model of Erickson. And for me, what it did more than anything is that it exposed, it brought to light what Erickson was doing. Erickson never could train students to be as good as he was, that’s my own humble opinion, but it’s backed by an awful lot of scholars in this field. However, Bandler and Grinder can.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: I can. Lots of people can now. But it’s because of Bandler and Grinder’s original work.

It’s because they went in and exposed what Erickson was doing to give us some inroad, some way of understanding it.

I'm telling you, if any of you people have read, Frogs into Princess, or Reframing, or any of the original NLP books, they probably, first time around, just went shaking their heads



with, “I don't understand it.” Part of the problem is those books weren’t written; they're transcripts of a seminar.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: So, you're missing an awful lot of the context of what was going on there. But I

guarantee you, spend a little bit of time with my work or other people’s work in this field, then go back and read the book and it’ll make perfect sense to you. Again, once you begin to understand what NLP really is … what it is, it’s a model that's built on these models.

So, when you say what’s the difference, well, NLP is a model that's built on the model of

really great therapists, the works of Milton Erickson, in particular, Virginia Satir, Perls, some of these really, really great people.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: So, there you go. (overlay) Jim: There's another question I have for you because sometimes, I think, the way that people

perceive it in this way limits its usage where I think they think they're gonna go see someone and someone’s gonna do something or say something, and they're gonna be different.

How much do you think is … and I know persuasion is a little different. Persuasion for sales and persuasion for personal change are two different topics but how much do you think a hypnotist or a persuasion person can do to change you, and how much do you think of it as a person learning these models, learning the structure of their mind and how they operate as a person?

You know, you mentioned something earlier that if the doctor says something to you,

you will recognize that he’s got this authoritarian thing and so, it’s like a command. You recognize, you respond to it in a polarity response, you say, “I like that response. It’s gonna help me get the results I want,” and it’s like, “That's what I do.” And I say, “God, because I understand the world like this, my life is so much better than when I didn't understand the world like this, and I was just blind and just acting in ways I didn't even understand.



So, how much of it do you think is learning and understanding how this stuff works and

how much or it do you think is just like listening to self-hypnosis sessions and being changed?

Kenrick: Okay, to me, that question goes a bit broader because are we talking about for the

people listening to this call, to this series who want to do hypnosis or are we talking about clients who are coming to our therapies? So, I'll answer a little bit of both.

First of all, yes, my world today is a vastly different world because I understand so well

how the human mind works and how people are persuaded. It’s a vastly different world to meet, and I'm thrilled to continue to pioneer along those lines. For me, it makes changing easier and I always believe all persuasion is first learned inside. It’s first learned by you.

In other words, when you apply it to you, you understand what you're doing to others.

This is a critical error that I didn't get early on. And, as a result, it took me longer and I created destruction to my path a few times because I didn't quite understand the power of what I was doing, and it was, indeed, very powerful.

I have more stories for you sometime if we get a [inaudible] 31:28 talk about it. And I'll

share with you some of my big failures in the hopes that the people listening won’t have to have them themselves.

As a result of this, sure, changing, for me, is easier. However, it’s not guaranteed … I

mean, I'm a human being just like you are. In fact, one of the things that … well, I won’t even go there. I mean, the bottom line is, you know, everybody’s human. Everybody has his own set of skills and failings, if you will, or difficulties; and so, I don't live a perfect life. I just don't, you know.

On the other hand, is it possible then that without these learnings, to be able to change

and I would say, if you have someone who has the learnings guiding you, yes, it is. So, I think one of the things that sets Erickson apart is a lot of his people actually gained a profound insight into their own life. Did they gain it at the level that he had? No, I don't think so, but they gained it sufficiently in their lives.



For example, the man whom he told to go climb Squaw Peak, you know, he climbed Squaw Peak and presto, his life has changed, he’s a better man, everything is good, and all the problems are done. Well, what did that have to do with the price of eggs in China? And Erickson somehow figured out that giving this man a task would help him to see from a different perspective. I believe Erickson also understand that the man would make meaning out of the task.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: So, is it possible to help people change without them having all the realizations that we

have as a result of, and the people of this call have as a result of their studies? Absolutely! I believe that people can change just listening to audio material, for example. I believe when it’s done right, it can absolutely help us to change and help their clients to change.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: I believe, though, it depends on at what level you wanna go to. Jim: Right. Kenrick: If you really want to climb the peak to human mastery yourself, to master … and I don't

mean perfection. There's a difference between mastering the way that persuasion works and being perfect. I don't claim that anybody’s gonna be perfect. But we can achieve a big degree of mastery in the realm of persuasion.

And, again, just like the concerned person who can go and befriend another and do as

good or better than psychologists can, so too, can a person trained in persuasion skills go way beyond what a person who’s trained in traditional hypnosis skills can do because, in the end, like you discovered, it’s a lot more about how you can guide them and guiding requires persuasion.

Listen, you want real awakening. Take all your hypnosis skills and go get a sales job.

Walk into the first person that you have a meeting with and say, “Great, I'm glad you're here and I'm glad I'm here. And I want you to sit down, close your eyes, and go deep into a trance, and I'm gonna tell you why you're gonna buy my product.” It won’t work.



But when you can talk to that same man or woman in a way that causes them to want to listen and makes them want what you have, makes them believe it’s their idea, that what you're saying is right, when they come to these conclusions, let me tell you, my friend, you've just also learned how to do it in your private practice.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: You're going to do it a thousand times more effectively than any level of other types of

training can do for you. Jim: Sure. That's awesome. That's a great, great answer for a question that wasn't that

clear. So, what I wanna do, again, anyone listening to this, Kenrick is a real master persuader. We're gonna get into some specific persuasion techniques now and talk about one of the coolest programs that he offers; and what I hope you realize as we talk about this is that, again, on one level, we're talking about how to persuade other people and how to make more sales; and another one that we’ll be talking about is how to persuade yourself, how to persuade other people in your life, and not in a manipulative way, but in a way where everyone wins and gets what they want. If you wanna learn more, you can go to truthabouthypnosis.com/persuasion. So, the truthabouthynosis.com/persuasion to learn more about Kenrick’s program here that we're gonna talk about now.

I know you have the persuasion factor. What’s this program all about and what can it

do for someone who joins in, listens, and uses it? Kenrick: This is my absolute, latest and greatest program and, of course, I'm always developing.

I believe there's no such thing as sitting still so I'm constantly developing, but this is my latest work and it is a series of monthly lessons that are designed to give you the very latest skills and strategies of persuasion and how to implement them.

For anybody who has ever wanted to understand NLP or apply it, I don't think you can

get much better. Now, this is not applying it in a therapeutic perspective. Let me just tell you the way it is. I'm applying it, first and foremost, to you in your life so as you're listening, you get to make the changes, have the “ahas, have the awareness so that you can guide other people to those same things.



I view it as a blueprint. You can put in the content of whatever you want. In other words, the blueprint is for a building. If you want to make it an apartment building, great; you wanna make it an office building, great; you wanna make it a museum, okay, fine. But it’s the building, it’s the structure of how to use these skills.

In the Persuasion Factor, the first month of this, Jim … I'm biased, okay, I'm the author,

but I just think it’s absolutely incredible. The value is outstanding. You get hours of persuasion information, and you also get the first session on my Millionaire Mind program, and this is where you learn how to program your mind for financial success.

Listen, all the training and therapy in the world is great, but if you don't have enough to

do what you need to do and to create your practice the way you want, you're gonna have some difficulties. So, if you're in practice for yourself, if you have a day job selling and you're trying to build a practice on the side or if your real job is business and marketing and influence skills, I don't think you can do much better than this.

I created a whole system on line of being able to draw to you the results that you need

using the power of this type of programming. So, the Millionaire Mind starts off with how to look at our set points. How do we look at our set points? And, by the way, for those people who are doing hypnosis, direct or indirect, either way, you can also see a strategy I used. I started off, for example, with emotional state conditioning, and the goal of this is, in just a few minutes, I used a couple of discrete sounds, very different types of sounds and programmed an emotional response to them.

So that during the programming sessions that we do … I call them “light and sound”

sessions. I don't refer to them as hypnosis although I'm certainly using all of those kinds of skills in the program. But the light and sound sessions are designed to install what I'm teaching you. And it’s the first time anyone’s come out with something quite like that where you can actually get the information and then help to get it installed.

But I'm using a whole lot of strategies to do that which makes your job of learning it

much easier. I'm sorry I'm excited about it so I'm talking so much, but let me turn it back to you.

Jim: No, no … I appreciate it. I want you to tell people because that's the beauty of this

program that you're talking about. In my opinion, you have such a profound understanding … and I think it is because you study everything … I think that's one of



the nice things about NLP. I think there's an underlying kind of presupposition and approach that you'll utilize anything.

You know what I mean, so there's a lack of judgment and there's not this close-mindedness to it so you’ll really use anything, and I think that contributes to your understanding of persuasion and human psychology; and that's what I love about this particular program because it’s not that you're just teaching this - to me, they're profound ideas - but you're installing them and literally using these new ways to install them as well. So, it’s pretty cool.

Kenrick: Well, let me tell you, Jim, that anyone who studies NLP has heard of the presuppositions of NLP. You know, the map is not the territory, yadi yada, there's a whole bunch of them, okay. The problem is and this is a really … you're not gonna hear this, I don't think, from other people. If you do, I'd love to know it, okay. Of course, if I say that, everyone’s gonna say so they can do it.

First of all, the presuppositions of NLP are fine when it comes to therapy. They do not

work, many of them do not work when it comes to conversational influence. For example, one of the biggest presuppositions of all therapists I told you is, “I'm the therapist, you're the client. Sit down. Be quiet and I'm gonna tell you how to change.” That doesn't work in discussions with your friends, with your wife, or your husband, with your children; it doesn't work in the office; it certainly doesn't work with selling.

So, what can we do? You know, when I first started out, I was learning how to adjust

and get rid of those presuppositions of NLP that don't work in the business world and in the conversational world.

By the way, as a result of that, Richard Bandler authorized the issuance of a new level

of certification which was Business Practitioner and Business Master Practitioner and I was the only trainer authorized to sign for those certificates. But after a period of time of working with him, I realized I was developing along those lines myself and I separated myself from that world and went more on my own. I believe they still offer those certifications but now within the society of NLP. And I'm glad I did that by the same token; my hats off to Richard Bandler, John Grinder, and Lesley Cameron-Bandler. They're incredible people. I really like them.



But, listen, the problem is these presuppositions, and if people take NLP as a therapeutic model and then think they're gonna use it in any other form, they’d have wasted a whole bunch of time.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: On the other hand, if you learn these skills from an influence perspective first, and so

that you're only using those presuppositions that work when you wanna talk to you husband or your wife or your children or your boss or your co-workers, or your employees, or in the sales situation, all of them will also translate a hundred percent into therapy. And then you can add some of the others as you learn how.

But trying to unlearn the therapeutic ones to talk to anybody else in your world is a real,

real challenge, another challenge that took years off from me in terms of having to continue to try to figure out why the heck it wasn't working when I would talk to people in the business world or why I felt the need to do therapy on everybody whom I tried to sell.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: So, again, I think one of the things that marks me as different from everybody else in the

world is that I'm extraordinarily pragmatic. Either I can show you how to make it work, I can demonstrate it immediately to you, and you'll agree with me that's it’s profound, or I'm not teaching it. That's it, I'm done. Let’s move on.

Jim: I can back that up a hundred percent, and I'm the number one testimony in this call

that's it’s absolutely true because I had a practice and when I began studying the materials, it literally transformed a lot of what I was doing, and it just kinda opened up a lot of … it wasn't that I couldn’t do the things before, necessarily, but I never even thought about doing them. It’s like it really removed a lot of the barriers and, again, I think you're teaching a lot of different levels.

The way my brain works is that it’s very practical and, again, any therapist … are there hypnotists who are practicing hypnotists … you know, half of your practice is getting clients in the door. You know what I mean, and selling them and being able to persuade to come in and sign up for your programs so (overlay)



Kenrick: You'll hear them now saying you're preaching to the choir. You're absolutely correct and this was one of the stark realizations that I had when I had a practice. It’s not enough to be a good hypnotist, is it?

Jim: Right, exactly. Kenrick: You gotta sell people on why you're the guy or the gal, why now, and you gotta get paid. Jim: Sure. Kenrick: So, the first job you have is more influence than it is hypnosis. And the second job you

have is the influence you're going to use within hypnosis. Jim: Yeah, that's totally true. So, let’s get into some specifics. I wanna show people on the

line here just some of the things they teach … I mean, let’s not hide anything. Your programs are pretty intensive, and there's a lot of information. So, again, I think there's a place for listening to self-hypnosis sessions that are 20 minutes long and just kind of closing your eyes and going along with it. I think that has its place. I'm a fan. I like learning a lot of information and I think you provide that.

So, these programs you teach are very, very deep. Talk a little bit about … what is

framing? Some of the stuff you talked about … there's a course I've listened, at one point, and you were talking about this concept of framing; and I thought it was just so profound, in a way, because it’s so big and it kinda got me this idea like paradigms and how we understand things and this umbrella underneath it. Talk a little bit about it. What’s framing? What’s reframing? And how do you use them in persuasion?

Kenrick: Sure. Framing is the angle with which we look at something. That’s a really great way

of saying it. Framing is the angle with which we choose to look at something. Let’s imagine a 24-sided cube. So, in front us … and let’s make it about five feet big. Twenty-four different window panes to this cube or openings or closings as the case may be. And as we look at that, what’s inside of it?

Well, what’s inside of it is what it is that we have to deal with. It could be an objection. “Hypnosis is too expensive. It doesn't work. Lots of people, they went and they didn't get anywhere.” It could be any number of points of view, objections, or etc. but let’s just call them a point of view right now.



The way in which framing works is that we take a point of view to respond. But what

point of view? And that's the problem. Most people only have one or two; they don't have a lot of flexibility to come from many different areas.

Let me give you a good example. I want you to say to me, “He’s a good guy.” Jim: He’s a good guy. Kenrick: Now, I'm gonna come at you from a number of different frames and every time I do, I

want you to just come back with, “He’s a good guy.” So, I'm sorry, start again. Jim: Sure. He’s a good guy. Kenrick: Yeah, according to whom? Jim: He’s a good guy. Kenrick: Are you trying to convince yourself of that? Jim: He’s a good guy. Kenrick: Yeah, but for how long? See, what’s happening, for everyone who’s listening to Jim’s

voice, he’s cracking. He’s having a heck of a time maintaining his point of view and I've only used three. I’ve got 21 more to go.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: Okay. I teach a program. It’s called Magical Objection Mastery, the 24 doorways into

the mind. And it uses framing and reframing strategies. Framing is just a viewpoint, but if we don't know to shift our viewpoint because we don't know what it is, how are we gonna get there? How are we gonna shift it?

So, in the Persuasion Factor, I start teaching, how do we see this kind of frame and use

it to our advantage? In other words, let’s look at it from a different viewpoint, Jim, from the viewpoint of the client; they have a frame they're presenting to you from.



Jim: Right. Kenrick: But as therapists, we don't stop to analyze what is that frame. Where are they coming

from? And if we did, we could immediately also see the seeds of the frame that would help them to get what they need.

Jim: Alright. Kenrick: So, it’s a perspective on things. Are we looking from up high, or are we looking from

level or from down below? Are we looking through something? Are we looking around something? In what way are we using the frame to our advantage or to their advantage? What are we doing to help ourselves with the frame?

So, let me give you another example. NLP talks about presuppositions.

Presuppositions are frames. If I said to you, Jim, “Naturally, if you've understood even a little bit of what I've said here, you're gonna wanna run the jump and look at the Persuasion Factor because it makes an awful lot of sense. It’s going to help.”

Now, the overall method … just go look at the course, great, okay, that's good. But

there's a deeper message. The first one was it started with the very first word I said which was “naturally.” In other words, as opposed to what, unnaturally?

So, your brain … “Yeah, okay, naturally.” NLP talks about the fact that when a

presupposition is used, if it’s not objected to, it has to be accepted just to make sense of the sentence. So, your brain, automatically, went into the frame of natural.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: And, of course, how do I back that up? If you've understood a little bit of what I've said

so far … well, obviously, every single person has understood a little bit. That's a statement of truism. So, I'm using the frame of “let’s put this into the natural framework and something that's absolutely true for you in your life.”

These are very, very covert means unless they're explained to you. Now, as you're

hearing the explanation, you may be going, “Oh, wow.” If you haven't heard it before, you're probably going, “Holy smokes.” If you've heard it before, you're going, “Hah, interesting news.”



But the fact remains that while these things are generally hidden because people don't

understand it, when they're exposed, you can immediately use it to your advantage; but there's a deeper truth here, too. You see, if you're talking, you're using these kinds of words. But are you using them to your advantage or are you stepping on your own foot?

Jim: Right. Kenrick: If you're not using them consciously, you are, in fact, stepping on your own foot. Let me

give you a really bad example. I don't know if you're going to be able to go into trance today or not; some people have a little bit of difficulty. Most people that I work with do it pretty well, though. And if you were to talk like that (overlay) my head hurts. Okay, you know, I mean, but that kind of talk, I've heard people do that.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: Let me tell you another one I heard. A guy did a phobia cure with someone and at the

end, he goes, “Alright, now I'm hoping that's gonna help, at least, a little bit this week,” so the guy sticks to phobia. The client was done. But the minute he uttered those words, the guy had the phobia back again. He re-installed it. He said, “But the next session, I'm hoping we can make it more profound. We’ll see after a few how it goes.”

At that point, I was so inclined to wanna insert my foot somewhere. The guy clearly had

a model of … his viewpoint, his frame was, “I can't really help you in this session. I can only do a little bit. You're gonna need a lot of sessions.” This is good for his business model.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: It wasn't good for the client. Jim: Sure. Kenrick: And, by the way, that's another presupposition all of the people listening right here need

to take into account. How do you do all these stuff effectively? And this is something I address at length in my programs. How do we do it effectively? I don't hold back on



the skills. I don't believe in that. I'm not a persuasion cop. I'm not a hypnosis cop. I want to help you understand all of these skills.

The bottom line is, though, you have to use them with integrity if you intend to be in

business for very long. And, you know, understanding that means you gotta hear them, you gotta have them explained, you gotta understand them but you don't know if you have to use them every time.

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: And you use them in a way that makes sense and has a lot of integrity. Jim: Sure. I've got two questions, actually. One of them, I just thought of as you said that.

Sometimes, people think that … you know, they’re scared of hypnosis and they think that someone’s gonna cause them to do something against their will or they're gonna be screwed up somehow. What’s your opinion on that? What’s your take on that?

Kenrick: (overlay) it’s great because if you can actually do that, I'd like to be the one to see it. Jim: Alright. Kenrick: Let me talk to someone and let me see him screw him up because the fact is, if you can

screw him up that fast, you could talk to him oppositely and unscrew him up, right? Jim: Right, sure, great reframe. Kenrick: So, that's my point. Hypnosis requires understanding. Persuasion requires

understanding, not only understanding of what to do but how to see what you're doing to know when you're getting the results you want. And if you're not getting them, how to change it so that you can get the results you want. And reading from the script or a scriptnotist is specifically what doesn't work.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: I hope that one question right there eliminates scriptnotists from the face of the planet

or, at least, anybody who’s listening to your series of calls here. I mean, that alone proves my point.



But, first of all, the brain is much, much more resilient than that. Let’s look at the people

who have been screwed up for a long time and visited how many therapists. Jim: Right. Kenrick: Does that mean all of those therapists are incapable? No, those same therapists have

probably helped other people. Brains are quite resilient and unless you know how to interact with the models and the strategies they're using, then you're gonna have a hell of a time helping people to change because they have such a profound ability to hold their mindset intact.

Listen, if it were that easy, today, you'd be Jim, and tomorrow you’d be Kenrick, and the

next day you'd be Sally, and the next day you’d be someone else, and then we call you Sybil pretty quick.

Jim: Sure. That's a good point. Kenrick: You're not. You've probably been Jim for a long time. Jim: It’s been a while. (overlay) Kenrick: Go ahead. Jim: And I wanna go back to the reframing idea because, again, it’s so profound to me in the

sense that, I think, so often, people try and approach and solve their problems within the same frame that created them. It sounds like as soon as you reframe something, it kind of gives you like a fresh perspective and a new ability to approach it. Do you think that's accurate or what?

Kenrick: It’s precisely accurate. And, in fact, what’s really happening is, the mental construct that

holds that opinion, that belief, or that strategy in place is deconstructed right on the spot. All of a sudden, you get kind of an “aha” moment, and people think, “Hah, I never thought of that.” Wow, great. And when they are in that “aha” state, what would that be another name for?

Jim: Hypnosis.



Kenrick: And if you're thinking hypnosis or trance, you're dead on the money. And in that

moment, I can turn right around and say, “You know what, he may be a really good guy, Jim, but I think in order to know for sure, we need to let some time go by, and let’s structure it so that we really see that.” Or when I talk about the profound use of these skills and you have this “aha,” “Oh, my God, this is some really hard stuff,” and I say in the Persuasion Factor and look at what it’s all about?” Look at it and understand what you can do.

This re-orients people, it redirects them. And, listen, I love using these skills with people

but I'm also going to do it fairly and point out when I'm using them. Alarm bells, ding dong, I'm using them, ding, ding, ding.

Jim: Right. Well, I think that's important. To me, that's a big part of learning because I think

so much of the challenges people have are because someone has used these techniques whether they were called hypnosis or not, and the person didn't even realize it was being used. I mean, the way we grow up, in a sense, is very hypnotic, the way we learn, and the beliefs we take on, and we never even think to question them.

That's why I always think that idea, the way you taught reframing was so powerful

because, again, we're always kind of thinking with our own bubble, and just the very awareness of realizing that … just the idea of reframing, that we can look at things in such a different way gives us such a freedom that I think a lot of people never even get to. I'm sure you know this and you do this but it’s like when you start to learn these skills, it’s almost like you can create these “aha” moments in other people at will.

So often, people argue where they’ll talk and have the same conversation or you get an

argument with your spouse and it’s the same argument and you have no flexibility to change it. I mean, you just keep repeating the same emotions, the same words, and the same argument; and it seems it’s the same in sales and all the rest of it. And it seems to give you some flexibility to approach those things in a new way. We've found that from people who have taken the course.

Kenrick: Exactly right. That's exactly right. And not only can you approach yourself that way …

and I believe all persuasion, all hypnosis starts at home first. We need to understand the impact that these things have on ourselves, and then we can bring that out to the outside world and, hey, that does something else fantastic.



It turns us from being a scriptnotist into being a real therapist or into being a real

persuader, someone who’s not running on a script. And, by the way, I always love to say, who is most persuaded or hypnotized by a script? It’s the guy who wrote it.

Jim: Right, great point. Kenrick: And also, if you're fortunate enough to get the guy who wrote the script as your client,

(overlay) no-brainer. This guy’s gonna change like right now. You ought to charge him 10 times. One time, read him the script and you've got it down. And that's true in selling, too, by the way.

If you write a generic script, then you'll appeal to no one. If you write a specific script,

you'll appeal to the guy who, basically, wrote the script. Unfortunately, that leaves the other 90 percent of the people out there that you're talking to unimpressed.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: So, the point is that you have to learn how this works and you learn it first on you so

that, then, you become a living, breathing persuasion machine. Hypnotists out there, you know, if you're able to conversationally move people to buy from you, to give you their money, to do what’s right, to help make the changes that they need in their lives and all these things, that's easy for you at that point.

But, you know, if you’re stuck to the scripts … I deal with a lot of real estate agents who

have made the misfortune of dealing with a group that does nothing but scripts all the time. They sound like broken records and, on top of that, they sound like they're reading all the time.

Jim: Yeah, yeah. Kenrick: See, that's because they are; and that's the problem and if I can recognize it, do you

think you could or anybody else? Of course! Jim: Right. And this is the heart of change and persuasion right from the beginning because

if there's no interaction, there's no sense of saying, “How is this person responding to what I'm saying?” I mean, I think, obviously, you start there. It’s profound but I think a



lot of people never even think about that idea of saying, you know, what am I doing, what am I saying, what’s my intention here, what’s the response I'm getting, and what shall I do now?

It’s very one-dimensional. A lot of the times, we learn … the ways we learn selling …

because I did that. I mean, when I first learned selling, it was the typical Dale Carnegie stuff, How to Win Friends and Influence People, and it’s like, at this day and age, it’s stale. Even if people haven’t studied, they can tell it’s canned, it’s not genuine. And, I think, what you teach unleashes a genuineness …

One other thing, I don't think it’s possible to learn … I guess, for some people, it might

be if they're really morally unethical, but I think if you are trying to sell something that you don't believe in and you learn these skills, what will happen very quickly is you will move on to sell something that you believe in.

Kenrick: And, unfortunately, you’ll have a period of pain, or you could have a period of pain

while you're trying to realize why and what you're doing isn’t really working but it’s not that; it’s that you don't believe in what you're doing and, as a result, there's a mismatch so clients aren’t buying from you and … if you're listening to this, if you're having low sales results, the first thing is, do you believe in your own product? Do you own it?

Jim: Right. Kenrick: Do you believe in it? Are you really believing in it? Do you believe you can help

people? Or do you believe that you need some more money today so you're gonna go try to make a sale?

Jim: That's such a brilliant point. And anyone who’s a hypnotist out there, I went through that

first hand. As a hypnotist, I didn't … because when I first started, I was just reading the scripts, I just kinda crossed my fingers and hoped they … I heard that they did well. I had no idea. And then, I was wondering why my business wasn't doing well. And so, again, learned some new things and everything began to shift in a lot of ways. So, again, this isn’t just about persuasion and selling stuff and making money. It’s much, much, much deeper than that. If you wanna find out more, go to www.truthabouthypnosis.com/persuasion.



Let me ask you. We're in this economic disaster and we're constantly hearing this message. People are scared and nervous. They're holding on to their money. What would you say to reframe that? How could you help someone who had those beliefs?

Kenrick: Well, first of all, you said it dead on. Now, listen, I believe that most of the people out

there in the world today who are selling, most of the online people … you know, online stuff is relatively new. They pretty much have never had to try to survive a recession. I've taught people how to thrive in the last five of them. I know precisely what it takes to survive in these times. Now, we're talking about what I'm really good at. And here’s the thing, Jim. In these times, you said it in your question. You said it’s in there so deeply. I don't know how many people heard it.

They keep hearing these messages, you said. Well, the first thing is to stop hearing the

messages, shut off CNN, for Christ’s sake, shut off the television. And my mom used to say to me, if you can't s say something nice, don't say it all. That should hold true right now for the media.

If we inundate ourselves everyday, “Oh, my God, the unemployment rate is even

higher,” “Oh, my God, another bailout plan, how is it gonna raise my taxes to pay for that?” Listen, all we're doing is hypnotizing ourselves in a negative way.

Listen, if you watch this long enough, you can hypnotize yourself right in to completing

an action. And I guarantee you, if you don't take action, eventually, you're going to experience the result of inaction. You're gonna experience the loss of a job or the loss of income or the loss of your livlihood whatever it is that you're doing, but it’s gonna be pretty horrific.

And it doesn't have to be. It does not have to be. Yes, in these times, we may have a

bit lower response rates. Yes, in these times, we may have to work harder, we may have to give more. I've made that a hallmark of what I do from the beginning because it works in the good times and the bad times.

Listen, for anybody who gets just the first month of the Persuasion Factor, you will

experience what I mean by what I just said. Talk about over delivering. I mean, it’s just incredible. It’s like drinking through a fire hose.



And that's the point. Yes, what we have to do is believe in ourselves more now than ever, and we have to understand what’s in our client’s head more now than ever, and if have to give more, more now than ever. And if we do those things, we’ll receive in like kind. It’s that law of the world that’s existed since the dawn of time and will continue to exist.

Yes, when people have more difficulty, we may experience a little bit less sales but we’ll

still survive just fine. Listen, in the great depression, more people became millionaires than at any other time in history, in that moment.

So, in this moment, even in the face of a huge recession, look at what some of the big

oil companies have done. I mean, there's always an opportunity. It’s up to us to begin to find it, to focus on it, to look for it.

Another great thing I'll just say for every budding business, entrepreneur, or even those

who are highly professional and extraordinarily successful, don't just build something and think you're gonna sell it. Build what people wanna buy and you're probably gonna sell it.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: Jay Abraham illustrates this point very well; and I realized it’s slightly off the topic but,

you know, it works really well for everybody who wants to sell something, and I think everybody on this call does. They wanna sell their sessions. They wanna sell their programs. And it’s really simple.

Jay asked this question. He said, “Kenrick, let me ask you. If you and I were going to go into competition, we're gonna go into competition in the same city, we're gonna have a restaurant, we're gonna compete, I'll give you any advantage you want. You can have any of that. I just want one. You can have any advantage you wanna have and whoever sells the most wins. What advantage do you want?”

And I thought real hard and I said, “I want the best food that I could possibly have in my

restaurant. People are gonna love my food.” He said, “Okay, Kenrick, you can have better food than I'll have and I'm gonna outsell you a thousand to one.” I said, “Why?” He said, “Because the one advantage I want is I wanna be sitting near a starving crowd.”



I said, “Oh, my God.” I mean, talk about reframing. And so, we make a product based

on what our market wants, not we make a product that we think the market might like and then we try go find the market for it; and this is a typical and classic error that people including myself have made over the years. And so, I think along those lines when we look at this downturn.

Remember, that for every wave that comes in the ocean, another one follows it. What goes up one day is gonna come down; what goes down one day is gonna come up. Maybe downright this minute a little bit, but it doesn't mean there aren’t a lot of markets that are doing very, very well.

Going after them? Not you personally but the people on the call. I mean, if we go after the good market, guess what, we’ll tend to do pretty well. If you don't do something different, if you don't understand how to influence people to do what you want, you're going to be caught along in a tide sort of like the tsunami that dragged the waves out. A lot of people went running out to see if there's some fish they could find, kind of a bad move at that point.

Jim: Right. (overlay) Great, Kenrick, actually, I'm one of those people who believe that everything is hypnosis, and I agree with what you're saying that we constantly get these messages and all these different mediums coming at us that are negative, and even if sometimes people recognize that, but that's not enough because it’s like we're not getting the positive programming. And even what you just said and you kinda went through, you know, saying those positive things, it reframes it and I would challenge … I bet, most of the people on this call have not heard something positive in this day and age, and in this economic time.

What you were saying wasn't this, “Oh, don't worry, just hold on, everything’s gonna be

fine. It wasn't this positive affirmation stuff. It’s, literally, accepting what the situation is and making the most of it; and I think there's an acceptance and kind of a reframing on how to use that and turn it around that I think is so powerful.

So, for anyone who’s listening to this, in a sense, this is what you need to hear. So I

completely understand that people feel nervous about the money thing because, again, some of it is real for sure, and a lot of it is amplification. But the thing to invest in this



day and age, partly, is to invest in what your programming is. What programming are you getting regularly?

On a simple level, let me ask you because there's kind of that argument that

everything’s hypnosis, nothing’s hypnosis. How do you define all the media messages we get, advertisements, newscasts, newspapers, everything, what’s your perception of that? How do you understand that?

Kenrick: Propaganda. Listen, when you're in the foxhole and you hear the messages looming

over the loudspeaker and you have pamphlets dropped on you that tomorrow, this is going to be a blood field, and it’s going to be your blood in the field or you can give up and come forward right now. We won’t shoot you and we’ll treat you well. And you hear that enough, and you’re tired, and you're hot, and you haven't eaten, and you don't know what to do and, sure enough, the next day, they all break ranks and give up. That's exactly right.

And so, what’s the effect on people who are hearing this horrific news day after day?

Well, maybe they're gonna throw up their hands and give up. That's not okay. Not because we're those people, that's not okay. Propaganda is meant for other people, not for us. Don't be stupid and buy into it. Learn how to use propaganda on yourself and on your clients for the good, for the benefit.

Yeah, there are problems out there, but aren’t there always problems out there made up

with a whole bunch of money and a whole bunch of good people’s money? But you know, since the dawn of time, there have been scamsters and tricksters and people who are problems, right?

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: You know what I mean. So, look, we can either hang our heads and cry and say, “Oh,

poor me,” or we can go out there and turn lemons into lemonade. I mean, the bottom line is propaganda and I'm real good at using propaganda on me, for me. I'm getting better and better at it. And I believe we have to inundate ourselves with the positive and not just positive mental attitude,

I've said for a long time that the problem with those kinds of things is that after you've

heard your positive mental attitude stuff and you're in your car and you're driving down



the road and, all of a sudden, somebody cuts you off. They just didn't stop and realized that you just filled your head full of a lot of PMS stuff; and you forgot, too, because you flipped them off, and screamed at them, and called them every sort of name in the book. There went your PMS right out the window.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: Not PMS, PMA, positive mental attitude. Sorry about that, I got confused. But, you

know, they're kind of similar in some ways. Jim: Sure. Kenrick: But the idea for me is that they both pass. But really good mental thoughts that are

based on a sound model, they don't just pass. When we look to organize our lives to what’s the most important thing, a good suggestion, I think everybody could take is what do you want it to say on your gravestone when you die? And how many years do you wanna give to this propaganda that's going on in the media right now that takes away from your ability to create that result in your life before you pass?

Jim: Sure. Kenrick: And I think if we focus like that, we can shut down … I think we have to really just be

physical about it. Shut off the TV. Change it to something positive. Don't sit and listen to news and … or if you wanna listen to the news, listen to something good that happened, the airplane that went down in New York or whatever and not one single passenger died. And, listen, I think what we've said today, Jim, is gonna be as valid tomorrow as it will be in 10 years.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: For those of you who didn't hear of the plane that went down, it doesn't matter. The fact

is, I'm talking being positive and not just positive in the PMA sense but like you said, Jim, you know, using this in a way that accepts where we are but looking for the good.

Jim: Right. And, again, I think that, to me, is like … that's another side effect. I mean, there

are so many wonderful side effects of this approach to understanding your mind and understanding other people. I call hypnosis NLP. I like to call it practical psychology



because I think a lot of psychology just offers these theories that don't really apply to your actual life.

And even sometimes hypnosis is to certain degree, but like you said, there is an aspect

of hypnosis that’s totally, totally relative and relevant to our lives; and it’s not just what you can do with other people but also to yourself.

To me, it’s so refreshing to hear positive things right now. Again, we do this cultural

hypnosis and we're always reinforcing it with each other, this constant focus on all the bad stuff and it’s nice to hear … I mean, how valuable is that? (overlay)

Kenrick: Absolutely! Jim, along those lines … listen, I'm known for creating the strategies and

the ideas that are able to allow people to use conversational hypnosis with extreme precision and capability. But I realized a long time ago that I can take people who need to learn how to do this and give them the skill.

But that's not enough because, still, we have to deal with the things of our regular life.

We have to have a reason why. We have to have a big reason why. And so, I began to do a couple of things.

First of all, I developed the Millionaire Mind strategies and what these are designed to

do … let me just give you a quick example. Take the things in your life and we can take anything but let’s orient it at money for just a minute because I think this is a really good way to help people.

Right now, you have x amount of dollars in your bank account and think for a moment

about what that is; and as you think about it, now think back a year, and you probably had more or less about the same. Think back another year, probably more or less the same. Maybe it’s been growing slightly or declining slightly but, you know, we have an amount we're comfortable with.

Think about the amount of debt that you have. It’s probably more or less about the

same. Think about the value of your house. When I say that, the debt that you have that you owe. And for most people, it’s more or less the same. They can afford more or less in the same ballpark. Houses will vary in their price but I'm talking about your debt load, I'm talking about … or let’s look at the amount of … are you there, Jim?



Jim: Yeah. Kenrick: Okay, great. I wanna make sure we're with you. But think about your income. Your

income is probably more or less the same. These are what I like to call set points. And the reason that I call them set points is because they stay more or less the same. Think about your weight. It’s probably more or less the same. And people get used to a particular lifestyle whether it’s good or bad. I mean, if you stick a pin in your thumb, at first, it’ll hurt real bad. But after a couple of months, it won’t quite seem so bad.

How do I know? Look at people who have earrings. Stick a pin through a part of your

body and it hurts like mad, but give it a little while and it doesn't hurt so much anymore. Pretty soon, you won’t even notice the pin stuck through your thumb.

Well, that's kind of what happens with these other areas of our life. The first things I do

in the Millionaire Mind is to start looking at our set points and then using programming to raise them or lower them as in the case of debt.

We can raise our set point but we have to do that by thinking of it in a particular way.

And, again, this is the positive use of propaganda and of influence skills and persuasion, and hypnosis. And I also realized that it’s not enough to tell people the skills. I wanna install the skills. I wanna make it second nature for them. Again, a good reason to just take a look at what’s there in this program, take a look, even just take the first month, even just start there, and you'll be blown away.

Jim: Yeah, you just hit on this so … can you go a little bit longer? Kenrick: Yeah, sure. Jim: You know, this is something and it’s fascinating to me and I think it’s one of those things

that's amazing because everyone operates in this way. I think what our psychological models that we understand … maybe people have heard like ego, id, super ego, what does that mean? To me, it’s like the conscious and unconscious mind … the way we operate is a lot of times through patterns. We learn things growing up through the people who were around the environments we're in and we just live that way unconsciously.



The value of what you're saying it seems like … how do I wanna phrase this? The value of being able to reference someone who is making a lot of money and who is around people who are making a lot of money, you start to speak differently. I mean, if you listen to like the Millionaire Mind, you hear … like even what you just said, you start hearing people talk about money differently. Do you think there's a different language that poor people or people who are struggling with money have as opposed to people who are doing well?

Kenrick: I guarantee you, that's exactly what there is. In fact, the country’s most successful

financial advisers, a good number of them are my clients in my coaching program and these guys are also very successful financially. There's a huge different language. In fact, working with the affluent, persuading the affluent, opening the doors for the affluent, this is a lot of my work as well.

And, listen, let me ask you a question, Jim. If you're going to do hypnosis for somebody, would you rather pick a guy who can barely afford a 100-dollar session or would you rather work with a guy who says, “Look, why don't I just buy 10 up front because there's a lot work I wanna do,” and he makes a check out to you.

Jim: Yeah, a total difference there. Kenrick: I mean it’s just a different mentality. It’s a different mentality. Jim: Sure. Kenrick: You know, everybody wants to be careful where they need to be, but believe me, get

inside their heads and unlock what it is that they want, and you're their “go to” guy. And for these kinds of things … look, we're talking about investing in yourself. We're talking about helping your life to be better and we're talking about that in the mind of the client, in the mind of that wealthy person out there.

They're not going to hold back on a few dollars. They know the power of investing in

themselves. They understand when Benjamin Franklin said, “Hey, if I had four hours, I'd spend three sharpening the saw.” They understand that.

Jim: Right.



Kenrick: Look at Barack Obama. This guy, according to his chief of staff does not like to miss a day in the gym. He will be very cranky and angry. In fact, if he has a heavy workload, he increases the time there because he understands the power of being physically fit. That's why it’s not taking time out of his day, it’s giving him something that most people don't really get because they don't understand it’s the same thing here, the exact same thing.

Jim: And the stuff they would never think about. So, we've talked about a lot of different

things. How does the economic depression, the financial hard times, how does that presupposition influence people daily in ways that they don't realize?

Kenrick: Well, you know, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think it’s hard, it’s gonna be hard.

“Argue for your limitations and they surely shall be yours.”

If all day long, we're being told why things can't work, why we can't get loans, why we can't do what we need to get done, if all day long, we're hearing that the unemployment rate is rising, rising, rising, and we simply can't get anywhere, if all day long, we're hearing that people have been turned out into the streets and living with their family, and if they have no family, they’re on the street, you know, if all day long, that's all that we're hearing, or worse, we actually think the government can help us, for Christ’s sake, has the government ever helped you one time? Listen, when people have interesting situations, Jim, it always blows me away how they respond. You know, the hurricane Katrina comes along and people are warned, “Get out.” People say, “Oh, I can't get out, I can't get out.” Okay, and then, what happens, there's destruction. Well, if they had to do it over again and I've heard a few people ask this question in interviews, they would have said, “Look, we didn't think we could have gone; but if we had to do it over again, we would have gone.”

Jim: Great point. Kenrick: But the same holds true positively. “We didn't think we could do it but we figured out

how. If we had to do it over again, we could do it.” Listen, when I was a child, my dad, after hitting his first million, said to me, “You know, we're millionaires, Kenrick,” he said, “on paper but we're worth a million.” And I said, “Wow, that's interesting.”



A short time later, he said, “You know, we passed two million,” and he just kept on

climbing, and, at one point, he said to me, “You know, if I lost everything tomorrow, I can have it all back again in just a couple of years. It wouldn’t take me so long next time because I've done it, and I know how to do it.”

Instead of listening to the media indoctrinate us with why we can't, we need to listen to

why we can. It’s always in the face of the biggest adversity that the biggest breakthroughs have been made. As Carlton says, a great marketing expert, he says, “Work like you have it done to your head because you’ll produce some of the best works you've ever produced.” Fine, the media has held the gun but let’s work like we got that happening, but by the same token, we don't have to accept the gun anymore. Let’s just work like mad and have some success.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: (overlay) that we have to know what to do, we have to know how to do it. And I think

that's where … look, for so long, when I was young, I thought, okay, I don't need to buy anything. I'm just gonna read the books and I'm gonna listen to what free stuff I can get and that's it. Well, now at 49 years of age, I realized, wait a minute. Jim, if you're an expert at what I need to know and I really wanna know it … am I serious, do I really wanna know it? And, if so, what do you charge? I'd like to hire you to consult with me immediately. I don't wanna have to spend the 10 years like you did to learn how to get here.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: I wanna spend a few dollars and get there tomorrow. Jim: Right. And something we didn't talk about too much is the idea of strategies and it

seems like, a lot of times, unless you really kinda go out and search for them, you're limited to the strategies that you learn through the people that you are around, and you're stuck with those, and, in a sense, it’s like those unconscious strategies are what keep you automatically at that same level year after year after year without even trying.

So, it’s like when you start getting exposed to strategies that make just more sense, not

strategies that you have to force yourself to stick to, but strategies you hear and



questions you'll find out successful people ask themselves, and you say, “That just makes a lot more sense than what I'm asking myself.”

It’s not a willpower thing. When you start learning these approaches, it starts to become

… that just makes a lot more sense than how I was thinking. So, let’s have a question for one second. Just real quick because, again, I'm taking a little bit of time on this because I think it’s so prevalent and I get so sick of it because even for me, like if I'm gonna constantly listen to this and I have to decompress from it and throw it out after a while because it’s just non-stop from every direction, what are some of the questions that people are asking themselves right now that are struggling with money and how could they flip them into a more generative, successful sort of question?

Kenrick: Well, first of all, that’s a really great question. I love it and, Jim, let me also just speak

because this just triggered my brain and I wanna speak to how do we get success? How do we have more success when we're listening to something positive, a hypnosis session or whatever? Ask yourself how in your life, where in your life, you're gonna actualize this. Where do you need to have some new realizations? How can you begin to put this into effect immediately? And what are some really big results you can have as you start doing it?

Talk to yourself like this just as you go into that session, and watch how much more

profound that session is. Often, people go into these sessions dissociated. They go in with an idea of, “Hi, I'm gonna sit down and listen to this and then I'm gonna get to work today.” Well, as if this isn’t important but getting to work is.

Jim: Right. Kenrick: Okay, why don't we make this our work for the day and let’s really get into this and

explore how can we use this to our advantage. Let’s think, let’s make it work for ourselves.

Okay, back to your question. I wanna say that real quick and I know it’s tangential to

your question, how do we ask ourselves the questions? Jim, the first thing is I wanna expose the bad questions. So, the bad questions are where we're blaming somebody or something. What’s wrong? How did it get this way? How bad can it get? Do you think I'm gonna go down right with the rest of the world? Is it possible I'll lose my house? You don't even need to talk like this, it’s just depressing.



The fact it, many of us start blaming people or we start looking for what’s wrong. We're

heading in the wrong direction. But let’s look instead to what resources do I have right now and what kind of resources do I need to get to where I wanna go. Heck, if I really wanna be a great therapist and a great hypnotist, and I want to get involved with the business model that works, and I want to be able to persuade people to give me their money in an ethical way, what can I avail myself of to get me on that track?

Ah, this program with Jim? It makes sense. Is it gonna cost a little bit? You bet! Yes,

it does. What doesn't in life? Listen, do you want people using that excuse on you? “You know, I'd love to do some hypnosis sessions with you right now, but I think I'll just read a book on hypnosis and see if I can change myself because I just don't wanna spend the money.”

Would you accept that? If you would, you're not going to be here long. But that's okay.

But the fact is we can't accept that in ourselves. We have to look at life from how do we get what we need? How do we have the resources to help ourselves move forward? What do we want in life and how can we go about getting it? What big result are we looking for?

And then, use all these strategies and techniques like you and I have been talking about

today to help advance yourself. This is the use of positive suggestion on ourselves. This is positive conversational hypnosis to make our lives better.

Listen, if you were the guide leading a team of people at Everest, and you're looking

down all the time, and you start walking in circles, do you think that they're gonna believe you and follow you anymore?

Jim: Right. Kenrick: If we're the way showers and, by definition, that's what a therapist is, that's what a

salesperson is. He’s a person who can help show the way to a better life. In other words, a salesperson says, “Part with this little pile of money and I'll give you this giant pile of advantages. You'll think the little pile of money you gave me was inconsequential compared to what you're going to get.”



And when you believe that, life changes; and if we can’t help people to believe that, then their life is not gonna change and ours won’t either except for the worst. So, the bottom line is, it behooves us to become way showers that know the way. It behooves us to be positive people who can point to the direction of success. And that's why I have the two lines running simultaneously in the Persuasion Factor.

I have, first of all, the persuasion lessons because I believe we need to learn to

persuade ourselves and others to do what we need to do. And second, we need to understand how to draw money to us, how to be more successful in our world and that's what the Millionaire Mind track is designed to do. And between the two of those things, it’s the success system that's just practically unbeatable.

Jim: That's great. And, again, I want to go a little bit longer so they could get some specific

examples of that. And anyone listening, you can kinda challenge yourself, question yourself, “Which questions am I asking?” And you'll know because you'll know how you'll feel. Are you usually feeling kind of inspired and excited and curious about what you can do to be more successful and grow more and [inaudible] your life? Or are you kind of wallowing and feeling bad and depressed and nervous and anxious?

That's very clear because those questions are coming right before those feelings a lot of

times so that's why I wanna ask Kenrick those specific questions. These are things you're getting through his program, the Persuasion Factor, and the nice thing is it’s current, it’s new. It uses really the most modern technology there is to install these ideas. And what ends up happening is, it’s nice because … again, it’s not a program that you have to follow and you’ll put it into a place with willpower and struggle through it.

A lot of it is common sense and it makes sense once you hear it. It starts making shift

on an unconscious level. You begin asking yourself new questions, you begin focusing on new things, and you start tapping into the resources that you already have. And so, it’s a wonderful program and, again, as he said, it’s cool because you can even just test out the first month and check it out. You get that stuff; if you like it, continue; if you don't, you could stop.

You could check out more about it at truthabouthynosis.com/persuasion and you can

learn more about that. It’s a wonderful, wonderful program. Kenrick Cleveland is definitely one of the best.



Kenrick: Listen, thank you so much. I appreciate it. I wanna say just another quick thing. You

know, another way to actualize what we're talking about … I really want your listeners to come away from this today inspired. And one of the ways that we can do that … let’s just combine a few of the things you and I talked about.

Let’s look at tipping points and turning points in our lives. Maybe a marriage, maybe a

birth of a child, maybe a new job, maybe the loss of a job, but turning points and tipping points. And it’s not the point that makes the impact. It’s how we think about the turning point or the tipping point in our lives that makes the impact.

So, for example, 10 years ago, I found a wonderful woman and got married. It’s a

personal thing, Jim, but you know, at that time, I was thrilled and I felt like I really found something spectacular, and I did.

But there were some things that weren’t so good. There were some things that weren’t

quite right but I accepted them. I thought, “Well, you know, let’s just move on. Let’s just move on with our lives,” and because I know that, sooner or later, they're gonna get better. So, I moved on. I got married, and everything was pretty good, but there were some things that weren’t good.

And over the years, it got to the point where I really wanted them to be good and I didn't

see how they would be. And I came to a point where I decided that, okay, I need to move on. And in doing that, Jim … I could have either stopped and looked back at those turning points in my life and then … really negative and said, “My God, I made a horrible decision and this worked out terribly and now I find myself having difficulties in my life where I shouldn’t be.”

But you know what I did, I went through these exact processes that you and I have been

talking about and instead, I looked and I said, “You know, at a time in my life when I needed support, love, and caring concern of a wonderful woman and family, I got exactly that.” And this is an incredible woman who did everything right. And the fact that we had a few differences and problems doesn't invalidate what she is, who she is, and our relationship.



And I can transform and move on in my life even if it means moving on and going on to other things and separating. I can do that and still hold all those really good things together in my mind, and I can now look for what I need to see to find what I want.

In other words, I have so much more wisdom and so much more ability. Instead of

sitting and being angry and vindictive and crying and … sure, I went through a short time of sadness, I think that's normal. I allowed myself that, but I also was immediately looking back to see, how can I reframe, how I can see these things for the positive things that they are in my life?

And I was able to almost immediately create a new reality, a new solution, a new

situation; and things are radically different and better in a few short months. And let me tell you something. It’s the same with our money. It’s the same with our business. We can listen to the negative or we can take this turning point or this tipping point, however you wanna see it, and we can look at it for how it’s going to help our lives be a whole lot better.

From there, we can ask ourselves, how can we see this in the positive? How can we see it in a way that's going to shape our lives for the better? We can either see it positively or we can see it negatively. The choice is ours. We have only ourselves to thank in the end when we make the right choice. And, I believe, after hearing this, a whole lot more people are gonna make that right choice.

Jim: Sure and probably partly because they're aware of a choice that they didn't even realize they had before because it’s in such an unconscious level a lot of times. That's a great example, too, because … I love that because that's very practical and a more example of practicality. Just because you know this stuff doesn't mean everything goes perfect. What it means is that when all the crappy stuff happens and it’s going to happen at certain times, you have more tools and resources to deal with it to get back on track quicker or to kinda reshape a new plan for yourself.

That's what I think is missing from a lot of people. I don't think it’s just the bad stuff; it’s

the feeling of desperation, of not having any other new ideas or new ideas to handle things. And that's what I think a lot of your stuff does.



Kenrick: Thanks, Jim. You know, my dad told me when I was a kid, he said, “Son, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others and a fool learns from his own, and son, I think you're well on track to try to learn from all the mistakes yourself.”

Jim: That's great. Kenrick: You know what, I never forgot that and I decided, at that moment, I'd try to stop learning

them all myself. And so, to this day, I offer my mistakes and my difficulties to those who listen by way of short circuiting them having to do that themselves.

Jim: Sure, that's great. That's what a lot of the stuff is. It does short circuit a lot of stuff. It

certainly has in my own life. So, anyone who’s looking for a subject and a course with some real substance and some real effect and power, check this course out and give it a shot because it’s just like what you said. One of the basic reframes that you learned is that it’s not about the cost of the program, it’s really about the investment and what you're going to get back.

And that's really a reframe you have to do; and when you start to invest in yourself …

again, it’s funny because if you could get a brand new car for a hundred dollars a month, would you do it? Of course, I'll do it because the value’s there. But you need to perceive this in the same way, that it’s a hundred bucks a month, but the value is 10 times that.

You know what I mean. In every area, not just financially you get it back but

emotionally, relationship wise … it truly can influence every area of your life. I can speak to that firsthand. So, check that out, read about it, anyways, and see if it is something that truly will appeal to you, www.truthabouthypnosis.com/persuasion and check out the Persuasion Factor.

Kenrick, I'm so happy you got on this call with us and for staying a little extra, and

making some things really relevant. You're right on the spot with those things. Obviously, you're a master of your craft, there's no question about that.

So, I think, you probably even helped some people feel better today for a little while to

take those ideas with everyone so they can feel better (overlay)



Kenrick: I'm counting on the fact that it’ll help them feel better for a long time. And thanks so much, Jim, you're a joy and a pleasure to talk to. This has been real fun and I'll look forward to talking to you again real soon.

Jim: Great! Thank you very much. Everyone, thank you for listening and we will talk to you

all next week. Goodnight everyone.

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The Truth About Hypnosis · The Truth About Hypnosis by Jim Katsoulis and Tellman Knudson Transcription with Special Guest Kenrick Cleveland, Creator of Persuasion Factor