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pronounce that right?

Interview Of: Sue LarrinagaConducted By: Gary DeulenDate of Interview: 5-8-03Case No.: 2003-008Transcribed By: Katie PietrzakRevised By:Page 1 of 24

GD: Gary DeulenSL: Sue LarrinagaMD: Mike Dillon

GO: Today's date is 8 May, 2003. It's 11:05 a.m. This is Gary Deulen with the Idaho

Attorney General's Office. This is a taped interview with Sue Larrinaga. Did I

SL: Mm Hm.

GO: I'm gonna ask you, Sue, to spell your spell, or say your first name spell you last.

SL: Okay my first name, my legal name is Susan Larrinaga. Larrinaga is spelled L-A-

R-R-I-~-A-G-A.

GD: What do you do, what's your current job?

with employee issues, uh, conducting investigations.

SL: I'm a human resource advisor for the City of Boise. Imanage the recruiting and

classification and perform [inaudible] duties including urn, classification, dealing

GD: How long have you been in this position?

SL: Uh, fifteen years at least, if not more.

GO: How long have you been with the City of Boise?

SL: Twenty-seven plus years.

GO: Prior to us turning on the tape recorder, I gave you a piece of paper that outlines

a trip that you, Tammy Rice, and Michelle Calaham took in September of 2000.

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Interview Of: Sue Larrinaga

Conducted By: Gary Deulen

Date of Interview: 5-8-03

Case No.: 2003-008Transcribed By: Katie Pietrzak

Revised By:Page 2 of 24

Um, J've asked you if you were familiar with the trip. I'm gonna show you a uh

paper and l'm gonna ask you to tell me what the first line says.

SL: The first line says F-A-R FAO Swartz.

GD: That's for a money amount in the area of $46.00, something like that?

SL: $48.25.

GO: That shows reimbursed by TR?

SL: Mm Hm.

GO: Do you recognized whose handwriting that is?

SL: Idon't.

GO: Okay. Urn. do you know what FAO Swartz is?

SL: Jt'sa toy store.

GO: During this trip. were you with Tammy Rice at, at FAO Swartz when she made

that purchase?

SL: Yes.

GO: Did you know she used her city purchase card?

SL: Idon't know that we paid attention, no.

GO: Anytime and that, that question J should have specifically said at the time did you

know she used her purchasing card. And your answer is no.

SL: Right.

GO: Anytime after that were you aware she used her purchasing card at FAO Swartz?

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memorized. You go ahead and you can just keep it because I'm gonna ask you


SL: No.

GD: So is this the first time you've seen this record?

SL: Yes.

GD: Okay. The next uh purchase, and since it's upside down I don't have it

to tell me what they said.

SL: Caesar's Teraza uh, dinner for T. Rice, S. Larrinaga, and M. Callaham.

GO: 00 you remember that dinner?

SL: I, okay, yes I do. When we talked originally, I was thinking of a Seattle trip that

we went to and this, this says Las Vegas so I'm...

GO: Oh okay.

SL: Resituating myself here. Urn, yes I think I do.

GO: There, and maybe this will help refresh your memory. There were also two

people from Alaska that Michelle knew...

SL: Yeah.

SL: Okay.

GO: That attended, that were attending...

GD: That day.

SL: Yeah.

GO: Okay.

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Rice, S. Larrinaga, and M. Callaham.



Date of Interview: 5-8-03Case No.: 2003-008

Transcribed By: Katie Pietrzak


SL: That was actually J think a lunch. That we had lunch with them.

GO: Uh, what's the cost on that?

SL: $125.57.

GD: Okay. Uh, the next one is ...

SL: Excalibur Hotel. um at the casino for in Las Vegas. for $131.43 for dinner for T.

GO: Do you remember that dinner or lunch, either one? That meal?

SL: I think that was a dinner.

GD: Okay. Do you remember that?

SL: Yes.

GO: Okay then the next one Is.

SL: Kid's Cast!e. Uh, a dinner in Las Vegas for $12.87 and it says reimbursed by T.

Rice.

GO: Were you present with her at Kid's Castle when she made that purchase?

SL: I think that that was a clothing store. I think I was. yeah.

GO: Okay. Did you know she was using her city purchasing card for that?

SL: I really didn't pay attention to what she was using.

GD: Okay. Did you buy anything while you were at either FAO Swartz or Kid's

Castle?

SL: No, J don't have young children.

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lodging?


Conducted By: Gary Oeulen

Oate of Interview: 5-8-03Case No.: 2003-008


Revised By:

Page 5 of 24

GO: 00 you have a city purchasing card?

SL: No.

GO: What's the next one after Kid's Castle?

SL: There are three that say Monte Carlo front desk.

GO: Okay. What is, just ballpark, what is the total cost of those three?

SL: Probably around $300.00.

GO: Okay. On this paper here, it seems to show a price of $291 and 8 cents I think,

or 3 cents.

SL: Mm Hm.

GO: Urn, how did you guys, if you have any recollection, how did you guys pay for you

SL: I don't for sure, but in a number of cases, sometimes that's paid in advance.

GO: Mm Hm.

SL: And I don't recall for sure if that's what happened in this case.

GD: Because this actually shows it was maybe offered on 7-26 of 2000.

SL: And the date of the trip, that's considerably later huh?

GO: Right.

SL: Huh.

GD: So maybe it was a prior, who would have arranged this travel, did you have a

person who worked here that arranged that, or . ..

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paying the bills, handles any administrative procedures for the HR director.


Conducted By: Gary DeulenDate of Interview: 5-8-03Case No.: 2003-008

Transcribed By: Katie PietrzakRevised By:Page 6 of 24

SL: Bobbie Green.

GO: Who's Bobbie Green?

SL: She's in a similar position to Judy [inaudible] now urn serving as an

administrative assistant. Urn, that urn, does a lot of the budgeting, takes care of

GO: And Bobbie worked where?

SL: I'm not sure where she works now. She doesn't work for the city anymore.

GD: Oh, she's not with the city? Oh, okay. Okay. Urn, what's the next one after the

Monte Carlo?

SL: Amco System parking. Urn, I remember that we rented a car. And it was for

parking for $34.00.

GO: Okay, then next.

SL: Brats Las Vegas dinner. T. Rice, S. Larrinaga, M. Callaham. For $117.98.

GO: Do you have any remembrance of that?

SL: No, it may have been a dinner.

GO: So, you don't remember if it is or isn't?

SL: Noto ffhand.

GD: Would it surprise you if I told you Brats is a child clothing store?

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understand why our names would be listed there for dinner. I know that we

Interview Of: Sue LarrinagaConducted By: Gary DeulenDate of Interview: 5-8-03Case No.: 2003-008


SL: No. It could be by the name of it, you would think it might be. But I don't

shopped at, at different kid's clothing stores, so.

expensive for, for a child. I remember her commenting about them, but I didn't

GO: Doyou remember Tammy buying two dresses for her daughter?

SL: Yes, I do. And I do, I don't recall the prices, but I do recall that they were a little

remember the name of the store.

GD: Would it surprise you if I told you the store was Brats and that they, the two

dresses added up to $117 and whatever cents that is?

SL: It could have been possible. I couldn't tell you for sure, but I would think that

could have been possible.

GO: Were you with Tammy when she bought the dresses?

SL: Yes.

GD: Okay. So do you remember going into the Brats store in Las Vegas?

SL: I don't remember the names of the stores. Urn, but I remember when she was

looking at dresses at different places that we were at, and I was with her most of

the time when she was looking in those areas so...

GD: Okay. Okay. Urn, Judy Retzloff does what here for the city?

SL: She performs in a similar capacity as I mentioned Bobbie Green does. She

serves as our administrative assistant, urn, she handles our billing, our

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Interview Of: Sue LarrinagaConducted By: Gary Deulen


Case No.: 2003-008



SL: You know, I, I just don't recognize Judy's handwriting. We have enough

different...

c ' . · ] · . · · .

• •

budgeting, urn if we need arrangements made for travel she does that. She let's

us know when we can and can't spend money.

GO: So, if I told you that she just got done moments ago telling me she wrote those

words In pencil there, do you recognize her handwriting?

GO: Right.

SL: Turnover in our office lately, I, 1don't recognize the handwriting. But..;

GO: Okay.

SL: Judy's a very honest person, and if she told you that, I'd believe you.

GO: Urn, in the time you were here when Tammy worked here, urn, I know that Judy

was not here that whole time. But Judy had explained if they were unaccounted

for, receipts were just missing, she would contact Tammy and ask we've got to

catch up on these receipts. Were you ever part of any of those conversations

about missing receipts um, I mean in, you guys went to urn, this is kind of a

subject change and I hate to do that to you. But in eight, in August of 01', uh,

you, Sarah, John, Michelle, Tammy, all were going to a ? course in the basement

of the LBJ Building. do you remember that?

SL: Mm Hm.

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Conducted By: Gary Oeulen


Case No.: 2003-008


Revised By:

Page 9 of 24

places for meals?

GD: So, do you remember going uh, what dld ? say, do you remember going to those

SL: I remember going to Louie's. I thought the other, I don't remember how many

days we went. Urn, I remember going to a Chinese place I think. And that's

listed there. I don't remember for sure Doughty's Biestro. We. we could have.

but I don't recall that.

GO: What's the date on Doughty's?

SL: 9-5-01.

GD: If I told you that the class was not going on on that time, would that be accurate

what's written there, that that was for lunch for this [inaudible] class?

SL: It wouldn't have been lunch for the [inaudible] class if the class wasn't going on.

don't, I don't recall that.

GD: So, is this error on the part of records or Tammy, or I mean there's two things.

Brats is listed for a dinner that I have told you is the purchase of two dresses.

Doughty's is listed a lunch for a [inaudible] class that wasn't going on at that time

that nobody who was in, who's listed there have any recollection of going to,

Urn, and I mean I. don't take this question wrong, but I mean I'm just trying to get

a grasp of how these kind of things get, got reported or never questioned and,

you know because there's a lot of purchases on there that say like birthdays,

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fact...

Interview Of: Sue LarrinagaConducted By: Gary DeulenDate of Interview: 5-8-03Case No.: 2003-008Transcribed By: Katie PietrzakRevised By:Page 11 of24

told me which trip it was, I don't recall for sure. Urn, but, but that was after the

GD: Right.

SL: That's when she left in December of. ..

GD: '01.

SL: '01. Urn, but that's the only conversation that we ever had about reimbursing.

GD: Now I know you don't have a purchasing card, but was your understanding that

you were supposed to use, I mean is it your understanding as a person in HR

that may have to deal with this that somebody's supposed to use a purchasing

card to buy dresses or, records, or Imean what is the purpose of the purchasing

card?

SL: I thought it was for city purchases, but I don't know. I didn't, I didn't work with it.

I think r maybe on one occasion used it, the purchasing card, to purchase some

items for a presentation to Mayor and Counsel. Um, and that's the only time that

I think that I've ever used it. Um...

GO: And I actually, someplace, I don't know that I carried it over here, but, we have

the whole policy of it and the signing of it and what you sign when you get a

purchasing card. I mean I think, is it safe to say that common sense dictates that

it was for business, not pleasure?

SL: Yeah, it's safe to say that.

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Interview Of: Sue LarrinagaConducted By: Gary OeulenDate of Interview: 5~8~03Case No.: 2003~008


GD: Okay.

SL: Urn, she could have been given, I'm trying to recall. It seems like at one point,

and I'm not certain, I think it was after the fact during this investigation that she

might have mentioned to me that Chris had told them that they could use the

purchasing card for whatever they needed as long as they reimbursed it. Urn.

but that wasn't anything inwriting that I know of.

GO: By Chris?

SL: B y Chris Hunt, I'm sorry, the city purchasing agent. But that was I think what she

had told me when there was an investigation of her purchasing card use.

GO: Urn, who's this e-mail from?

SL: It's fromTammy Rice.

GO: To?

SL: To Donna Wolf and Judy Retzloff, regarding procurement card expenditures, an

explanation.

GO: Go ahead and just read that to yourself and then...

[pause]

GO: What date is that?

SL: That's July 18th

• 2001.

GO: When did you guys go to Las Vegas?

SL: Urn,when did we go to Las Vegas. September of 2000, is that when we went?

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FAO Swartz.

lnterview Of: Sue LarrinagaConducted By: Gary DeulenDate of Interview: 5-8-03

Case No.: 2003-008

Transcribed By: Katie PietrzakRevised By:Page 13of 24

GO: So, about ten months later she's written an explanation that, again denies the

purchase at Brats.

SL: Yes. This statement basically says that there only expenditure on the list was

GD: Is that a true, is that true?

SL: Well, obviously not if it's listed herewith, with Brats and Kid's Castle.

GD: You gotta remember that as far as that says, that Brats is still dinner for the three

of you. That's why it was important that I ask you if you'd been to Brats for

dinner.

SL: I don't recall anything called Brats for d-inner. Urn, and if we, I, one, two, three.

How many days were we there? Probably three days. And if you look at the

number of meals, there's one, two, and I, we, I know we ate at, we stayed at the

Monte Carlo. And our first night we ate at the Monte Carlo. I'm not, I guess I'd

have to go back to see how many days and nights that we stayed there. Um, but

when it says room and telephone charges, there was a meal that we had. Urn, I

think we stayed three days, but I could, it could have been actually four. So I'd

have to see if I had any record to indicate how long I was gone. Um, I would

think we got there the night before, and probably left on the last day of the

session. I think that's what we did. So dinner would have been at Caesar's, at

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Excalibur, and at Monte Carlo, and I, nothing stands out for me that we had





dinner at a place called Brats.

GD: What um, Ithink in one of these it shows the transaction date. I think here's the,

let me borrow it for a second. Where it says Tran and then post date, the

transaction date is the date that the money was spent when you made the, when

the charge was made right here.

SL: Mm Hm.

GO: Then when it's posted on the account is what that is. When did you guys eat at

um the urn, the two other casinos, what dates?

SL: I couldn't tell you for sure, but if you look at the transaction dates that are listed

here, they're listed as the same day.

GD: Mm Hrn.

SL: Is that something that we would enter or is that something that they enter on a

receipt?

GO: The business enters.

SL: That particular business entered huh.

GD: Mm Hm. When's Brats listed, on what date?

SL: On the 27th

of September.

GO: And the Monte Carlo is the one for the 26th?

SL: No, but I think that that would have probably been paid when we checked out.

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GD: Okay.

SL: So it was all on the same day as the 29th• But Caesar's and Excalibur are both

listed at the 29th also.

GD: And so's FAD Swartz and Kid's Castle isn't it?

SL: Mm Hm. Yes.

GO: So the only one that's different is Brats?

SL: Yes. You know, wait a minute. As we're, I'm thinking. We met some friends of

Michelle's from Alaska. And I think one night they paid for our dinner. Urn, we,

we had just a drink or two, and I think, I think we just had appetizers or

something.

GD: Yeah.

SL: And I think they may have paid for our dinner one night. I think, I think the first

night that we got there we ate at the Monte Carlo. Urn, and I know one night we

went to Excalibur. That uh, kind of a show that you go to. And we went to that.

So, I guess Caesar's could have been. like you said earlier, the lunch that we

had with Michelle's friends.

GO: That's where the shops are, and all of that?

SL: I think that we had, we got out early from our session, and we had some time

before we flew back, and sowe did do some shopping. Yes.

GO: Okay. Now the Brats purchase is at a different date.

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SL: I think that was, I think that was, I'm not sure if it was wIthin the Monte Carlo. It





Revised By:Page 16of 24

might have been a business that was within the Monte Carlo Hotel or somewhere

down in the area where we were staying.

GO: Okay. Do you firmly believe that it wasn't a dinner as it's listed there?

SL: I don't know that I firmly believe that. Urn. J do recall that she bought a couple

dresses.

GO: And even with me telling you that I've got the credit card receipt that shows the

two dresses at Brats. Brats is a child's clothing store and sells no food.

SL: Then if you're telling me that then I believe you.

GO: Yeah. I mean I'm not doing no police tricking. I mean I'm telling you ...

SL: Yeah.

GD: It's, you didn't eat there.

SL: Then it, then it wasn't.

GO: Unless you ate buttons.

SL: [laughs] Then it wasn't. ifthat's what you're saying. I, from my recollection I can't

remember the names of all the places that we ate.

GD: And based on what you said, if Michelle's friends picked up dinner one night, if

you ate at, lunch at the urn uh, Caesar's ...

SL: MmHm.

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dinner. So, you don't have to, Imean, you've got the meal at Monte Carlo, you





Revised By:Page 17of 24

GD: And that's a fairly expensive bill, but it's for five of you. Uh, then they pick up the

got the meal at the um King Arthur show, Excalibur ...

SL: Mm Hm.

GO: And you've got the lunch at um Caesar's, and you've got them picking up a meal.

so that accounts for all of the meals that you would have had on this trip.

SL: Yeah, because I think when we were in the sessions, they it included lunch.

GD: Yeah, it did say that on the flyer that I got from them. Okay. Is Tammy a thief?

SL: I don't believe she is. I...

GO: She's never paid back $117.98. She bought two dresses for her kids with

taxpayer money. She bought stuff at Kid Castle and FAO Swartz and never paid

it back until she was caught in an audit. Then she wrote an e-mail that I've

showed you that misrepresents the facts.

SL: That appears to be, but I'm not going to be a person that says that Tammy's a

thief. I'm sorry. Urn, I, it J see what you're saying and I believe everything that

you're saying and from everything that we're seeing it, it appears that she didn't

reimburse for that amount.

GD: Is that right?

SL: No, I don't believe that's right.

GD: How good of friends are you with Tammy?

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I have to talk to, and this is a standard speech Sue, is that uh, when I talk. to you




Revised By:

Page 180f 24

SL: She was my boss. She urn, taught me a lot about human resources. Urn, we

don't see each other on a regular basis or anything like that.

GD : You haven't seen her in the last few months?

SL: No, she's, in the last few months she's called me once or twice, Not to talk about

work, but just outside things, but we've never socialized on a regular basis or

anything like that.

GO: Has she called you and told you what I talked to her about?

SL: No.

GO: Okay. I would ask that what we discuss is between us and the tape and the

court. And that you not talk to other employees in HR because other people that

it's better to have your memory than, well Michelle told me that this is what you

asked so you've got what Michelle remembers instead of just your memories,

you know Imean that's the purpose of it.

SL: MmHm.

GD : You're not a suspect in any crimes, you're not, you know, any of that. And it's

fine to be loyal to Tammy. I, I don't know that Tammy's a thief either. I j ust know

Tammy didn't pay that stuff back.

SL: Well, and it doesn't appear that she did from all the evidence that you have here.

Urn, as we're talking, I'm also thinking that we, sometimes ate breakfast at the

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Interview Of: Sue LarrinagaConducted By: Gary DeulenDate of Interview: 5-8-03Case No.: 2003-008


Monte Carlo too. So that could have covered some of the rooms there. That still

doesn't account for the charge at Brats, at Brats though. Um.

GO: I mean uh, I mean my understanding, and it's hard to recreate things three years

later. But my understanding is most of those room charges are for you know, like

you know cause that was one of the things on the receipt here. that I just got

from Judy. So there's a meal that I didn't know about.

SL: That's probably the breakfast that we're, that Iwas talking about.

GO: Mm Hm.

SL: Yeah. But unless it was tacked onto some of these others, and it could have

been, there isn't a separate receipt amount for the $36.68. But it, it was probably

tacked onto these.

GD: Well some of those where it says room charges, like if you go to enter a casino,

you buy those, you just say bill it to my room.

SL: Mm Hm.

GO: Which is my understanding from the paperwork I have from them, but r did not

know about the milk and that stuff there. Because what I could never figure out

is what you guys did for breakfast. You know, I. I...

MO: ETA?

GD: Within five minutes.

MD: Okay.

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number down here, and I, I guess I 'd have to think about it a little bit. I know we

lnterview Of: Sue Larrinaga



SL: From this receipt, she did charge it to her room because she put her room

went out to breakfast at least once or twice. Idon't know if we did every morning,

but it was usually in the Monte Carlo where we were having the session.

GD: Okay.

SL: Urn, I think one morning we might have, I don't remember for sure. I was

thinking that we might have just urn, stopped at a different place that didn't have

as much of a breakfast. It was just a roll and coffee type but it was all within, I

think within the Monte Carlo.

GD: Yeah. I, think you're, I know that you're smart and intelligent enough to know

that the one thing l'rn interested In Is Brats. un, that money's never been paid

back to the city. I would challenge that it's still illegal to borrow money and then

pay it back to the city, that those are all violations of the law too. But the one I'm

really interested in is the one that's never been paid back to the city, which is the

$117 to Brats.

SL: Mm Hm. That's' understandable.

GO: Did you ever know about Tammy purchasing anything through the Monticello

catalogue?

SL: No, I'm not sure what the Monticello...

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February of 2001. After her trip to Monticello, Thomas Jefferson's birthplace ...






GD: It apparently, it's TJM Monticello catalogue, this would have been around

SL: Mm hm.

GO: With Gary Lyman, Tammy Rice, and Suzy Mimura, um they picked up a

catalogue of merchandise you can purchase through there.

SL: Mm.

GO: It comes back here and people are looking at it to buy things.

SL: Is it all as it relates to, is like a part of the mormon religion type of thing?

GO: No, it's Thomas Jefferson's house. Monticello is the birthplace ...

SL: Okay.

GD: The, the farm and place of Thomas Jefferson.

SL: Okay. I'm following you now. Urn, no I don't recall anything, any kind of

purchases from that.

GO: Okay. Urn, did you ever hear anything about Tammy using her purchasing card

for any other personal purchases?

SL: I think she told me that at one time, she and Mike went to Salt Lake.

GO: Mm Hm.

SL: And that, and this was again when she was being investigated for her purchasing

card use. That they were, they needed to use the purchasing card for something

.and they didn't have their own.

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GO: Does the name Windham Hotels sound familiar, in Salt Lake City?

..~




Case No.: 2003-008



GD: Mrn Hm.

SL: Purchasing card, so she used the city card and reimbursed it. I wasn't there and

I didn't see anything, it was just what she told me.

GD: Did, did she say for what?

SL: Not that, she probably did. I don't recall.

SL: I recall that it was in Salt Lake City. It could have been for a hotel bill, I don't

remember what it was for sure.

GD: Did she say anything about Sheila's Steakhouse and the Windham Hotels in Salt

Lake City?

SL: I don't recall anything, I don't know.

GD: Okay. Uh, when you said you had this conversation with her when she was

talking about this during the investigation, what investigation are you talking

about?

SL: When there was Questions about her purchasing card use just before she

resigned.

GD: Who did that?

SL: Urn, I think that the city reviewed her. There was a request for the city to review

her purchasing card use. Urn, I don't know specifically who, I don't recall who ...

GO: Nobody in HR was involved in it?

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pretty much will always ask that. Is there anything that you were worried I was




SL: No, urn accounting or someone asked for all of our purchasing card receipts, and

they were given I think to the county. But I wasn't directly involved, so I'm not

sure.

GO: Do you have any questions?

SL: No that I can think of.

GO: Okay. Is there anything I didn't ask you that I should have? And, and why I ask

that question is sometimes, and I'm not saying you did, you did this, but I mean I

going to ask you I didn't answer it, I didn't ask it and so now you're happy and

you're not going to tell me that.

SL: Not that I can think of Gary.

GO: Okay. Okay. Um, like I said I mean you know, the facts are the facts. I've got

my paperwork that explains that and the only thing that uh, if you were called to

testify, it would be do you remember did you eat at a restaurant called Brats?

SL: I don't recall a restaurant called Brats.

GO: But you do remember eating at the, the Knights of the Roundtable, that show

thing.

SL: Mm Hm.

GO: Excalibur.

SL: Mm Hm.

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there. I don't. ..






GO: I can't remember, I don't know why I can't remember that.

SL: [laughs]

GO: And you remember eating the pizza and uh, shrimp at Monte Carlo the first night

you were there?

SL: I don't remember what the specific dinner was, was it pizza and shrimp?

GD: Well that's how much I know.

SL: Uh, I know we had a dinner there, and I think it was the first night that we were

GD: Itwas pizza and a bucket of shrimp.

SL: Oh, okay.

GD: [laughs]

SL: Could have been.

GD: I guarantee it was.

SL: [laughs] It sounds you have the receipt, $0 I do recall, I do recall that we ate

there.

GO: Okay. Okay. 00 you have anything you need to add?

SL: Not that I can think of.

GD: Okay. This will conclude interview with urn Sue Larrinaga. The time is 11:37

a.m. on 8 May, 2003.

[END OF TAPE]

Documents

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