Swiss made or not part 2

05-30-2010, 11:22 PM

meijin WatchGeeks Owner

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When Invicta puts Swiss Made on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by

the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch. When Invicta puts Swiss only on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the

Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch. When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Movt, it indicates that the movement in the watch is a Swiss Made movement, but the production of the watch does not follow all

of the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation. When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Parts Movement, it means that a movement (usually from companies like Ronda, ISA, etc.) containing Swiss parts have been used

and is generally been produced/assembled in a non-Swiss country. This has been discussed numerous times here and also on the shows that have aired

for the last several years. So, for Invicta, when we use Swiss or Swiss Made, it means the same thing. That being, that the watch was produced using the guidelines set forth by the Swiss

Federation. __________________ Michael

Argument is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it. ~ Edward de Bono Invicta...in hoc nomen vinces!

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#41

05-30-2010, 11:28 PM

samuelrz Senior Member

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin

This has been discussed numerous times here and also on the shows that have aired for the last several years. So, for Invicta, when we use Swiss or Swiss Made, it means the same thing. That

being, that the watch was produced using the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

Thanks again Mike. I know this must get old answering. __________________

SAM - http://www.giltman.com/invite/samuelrz

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#42

05-30-2010, 11:30 PM

meijin WatchGeeks Owner

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Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelrz

Thanks again Mike. I know this must get old answering.

Isn't the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over again while expecting a different outcome?

But I digress...

LOL! __________________ Michael

Argument is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it. ~ Edward de Bono Invicta...in hoc nomen vinces!

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#43

05-30-2010, 11:44 PM

Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin

Isn't the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over again while expecting a different outcome? But I digress...

LOL!

Not when the circumstances of the confusion keep changing. Sea Spider Sport (marked Swiss on the dial and Swiss Parts Movt on caseback) Understood as a mistake.

Racing RD OTV (Swiss Movt on dial but was a Swiss Part Movt). The Akula in question by the original poster has changed from the customary "Swiss

Made" we are used to on the Akula's, and now simply says Swiss. On the caseback it

states "Swiss Reserve Collection Chronograph Movement" which is a little confusing, again moving away from the Swiss Made marked casebacks on the Akula. Probably

explained away as visual queue. I am not doubting your information, you certainly know better than I as far as Invicta's policies. But there have been enough examples in recent history that makes

this topic come up again and again.

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#44

Yesterday, 02:48 AM

unclefixit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin When Invicta puts Swiss Made on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by

the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch. When Invicta puts Swiss only on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Movt, it indicates that the movement in the watch is a Swiss Made movement, but the production of the watch does not follow all of the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Parts Movement, it means that a movement (usually from companies like Ronda, ISA, etc.) containing Swiss parts have been

used and is generally been produced/assembled in a non-Swiss country. This has been discussed numerous times here and also on the shows that have aired for the last several years.

So, for Invicta, when we use Swiss or Swiss Made, it means the same thing. That being, that the watch was produced using the guidelines set forth by the Swiss

Federation.

Just posted this in another thread...think it applies here aswell.

Quote: Originally Posted by DIAMANTE

Has anyone noticed that some Invicta models that previously used the ETA G10 and were marked Swiss Made are now using the Ronda 5040d and are now labled simply

Swiss? This includes some Reserve models as well - Akula for example.

There was some discussion about this when the Amazon exlcusive models appeared, particularly the Venom. It was hundreds less used the Ronda 5040d and was marked Swiss.

My theory is that these models have the Asian version of the Ronda 5040d and therefore cannot be labled Swiss Made.

I asked JSkelton about this (when the Amazon Venome was being discussed) and he said he didn't know but he would ask Eyal. I don't think the quality has suffered and the Ronda 5040d (even the Asian made

version) has nicer features than the ETA G10. I just want to know if my theory is correct.

D Originally Posted by RenatoDiamond Very nice, this is one of the swiss movement (not swiss made) RD's.

Sorry Gene that would be incorrect. The words "Swiss" or "Swiss Made", usually at the 6 o'clock position on the

dail, indicate a watch built meeting the guidelines of the Swiss Federation of

Horology. The words "Swiss Movement" (in the same font) indicate only a "Swiss built

movement" that has been encased and assymbled into a completed watch, in

a non-Swiss factory. The words "Swiss movt." (note abbreviation) indicate a non-Swiss

assymbled movement and of course watch. That's about as simple as I can put it.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Not when the circumstances of the confusion keep changing.

Sea Spider Sport (marked Swiss on the dial and Swiss Parts Movt on caseback) Understood as a mistake.

Racing RD OTV (Swiss Movt on dial but was a Swiss Part Movt). The Akula in question by the original poster has changed from the customary "Swiss Made" we are used to on the Akula's, and now simply says Swiss. On the caseback

it states "Swiss Reserve Collection Chronograph Movement" which is a little confusing, again moving away from the Swiss Made marked casebacks on the Akula.

Probably explained away as visual queue. I am not doubting your information, you certainly know better than I as far as Invicta's policies. But there have been enough examples in recent history that

makes this topic come up again and again.

Just posted this in another thread...think it applies here aswell.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Flyback,

If customs requires the dial to be marked with the country of orgin, how did Invicta get away with the OTV carbon fiber RD's, and the Sea Spider Sport?

The Sea Spider Sport was marked "Swiss," the RD "Swiss Movt" on the dial. The casebacks were labeled "Swiss Parts Movt" on both.

We all know that "Swiss Parts Movt" are from the Orient in origin. So wouldn't the casebacks and dials need to be marked as such for importation? Quote:

Originally Posted by 50mm&up I got a Sea Spider from InvictaShark that has a 5040D Ronda asian parts movt. It says swiss at 6:00. lol. Anybody's guess is as good as mine and it doesn't really

matter to me. You're getting a sweet RD for $90, whats the problem? Rick I know the watch your talking about, the Sea Spider Sport. It's the one that caused a big to-doo here because it was sold with an

incorrectly labeled dail ("Swiss" meaning Swiss Made). This mistake (by the dail manufacturer) during manufacturing wasn't caught

until after the watches were finished and ready for sale. That's why your watch is labeled as it is...doesn't mean your watch is poor in

quaility by any means. What it does mean is that you saved a hell of alot of money and got a great

watch.

Search is your friend...

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#45

Yesterday, 03:03 AM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by unclefixit The words "Swiss" or "Swiss Made", usually at the 6 o'clock position on the

dail, indicate a watch built meeting the guidelines of the Swiss Federation

of Horology.

"Swiss" on the dial does indeed indicate a Swiss Made timepiece, however this applies to Swiss Federation members only. Any other companies using it is up to their own internal policies but must have at a minimum a Swiss movement as pointed out by Flyback from the importation regs he posted. That is the entire point of this debate

and why examples have been pointed out of it's incorrect use even though Michael has stated Invicta's policy is if the timepiece is marked "Swiss" it meets the "Swiss Made" standards.

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#46

Yesterday, 03:29 AM

unclefixit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy "Swiss" on the dial does indeed indicate a Swiss Made timepiece, however this applies to Swiss Federation members only. Any other companies using it is up to their own internal policies but must have at a minimum a Swiss movement as

pointed out by Flyback from the importation regs he posted. That is the entire point of this debate and why examples have been pointed out of it's incorrect use even though Michael has stated Invicta's policy is if the timepiece is marked "Swiss" it meets the "Swiss Made" standards.

Nice cherry picking of my lengthy response BTW.

Yes i'm aware of Invictas' non-member status in regard to the Swiss

Federation of Horology.

I also think it should be mentioned that Invicta, as a watch manufacturer, is

in no way bound to label their watches, Swiss Parts movement and or

components on their casebacks...yet they do. I'd call that truth in advertising...what say you.

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#47

Yesterday, 03:44 AM

timeman Senior Member

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"Swiss Made" or "Swiss" under the 6 o'clock make it a Swiss made watch only if it conforms to the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry (FH) regulations. A watch that follows the USA Federal Trade Commission (FTC) will permit and consider a watch as "Swiss Made" merely with a Swiss made movement. In this case the word

"Swiss" can also be placed under the six o'clock. So when buying a watch you need to know what regulations / agency the watch company is complying with, which could be difficult. To be safe "Swiss Made" under the 6 o'clock guarantees a true Swiss Made watch.

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#48

Yesterday, 03:45 AM

KOKONUTZ Senior Member

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin When Invicta puts Swiss Made on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch.

When Invicta puts Swiss only on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Movt, it indicates that the movement in the watch is a Swiss Made movement, but the production of the watch does not follow all of the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Parts Movement, it means that a movement (usually from companies like Ronda, ISA, etc.) containing Swiss parts have been used and is generally been produced/assembled in a non-Swiss country.

This has been discussed numerous times here and also on the shows that have aired for the last several years.

So, for Invicta, when we use Swiss or Swiss Made, it means the same thing. That being, that the watch was produced using the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

Michael, acording to the Swiss federation.... (http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php, the use of Swiss Movt on the dial is incorrect. Hence, that is why when Invicta brought out the original scuba, you used the full Swiss Movement on the face at the 6 o'clock

position...all labeling of swiss movt by you and other mfgs is incorrect.

wrong right

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#49

Yesterday, 04:09 AM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by unclefixit Nice cherry picking of my lengthy response BTW.

Yes i'm aware of Invictas' non-member status in regard to the Swiss

Federation of Horology.

I also think it should be mentioned that Invicta, as a watch manufacturer,

is in no way bound to label their watches, Swiss Parts movement and or

components on their casebacks...yet they do. I'd call that truth in advertising...what say you.

Not cherry picking, condensing, and that was the only part that needed to be added to.

As far as "what I say"...... I say customers that are concerned with a watch company telling us they are true

Swiss Made timepieces yet don't use that full and proper indication for absolute proof, these customers have every right to question and be skeptical over that Swiss Made claim. After all, you are pretty much taking the rep's or host's word for it only based

off the brand's own internal policies, and not any kind of regulations or laws. We have seen problems with this before with another SNBC brand.

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#50

Yesterday, 04:40 AM

CLEANS-HIGH Senior Member

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It is repeately stated that the reserve collection is Swiss made so I would go with that, I have 4 LP Italy watches that have Swiss between the 3 and 4 O'clock and Swiss on the case back so I think it means the same thing (their website states Lp

Italy watches are swiss made)

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Is Michael's clarification so far as INVICTA is concerned that difficult to understand? It seems to me so far as INVICTA is

concerned (I know other companies may take liberties with the Swiss federation guidelines if not a member), Michael's explanation of their policy is manifest, apparent, and might I

say "clear." At times, I think there must be a world wide

shortage of dead horses, because every one of them would have been whooped many times over around here....LOL __________________

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy." -Billy Currington

Last edited by watchdude1; Yesterday at 04:55 AM. Reason: spelling

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#52

Yesterday, 04:47 AM

Bourbon City Senior Member

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This web site gives a good general overview of Swiss Watch Industry and what it means to be Swiss Watch "anything". www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php

BC

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#53

Yesterday, 05:02 AM

unclefixit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy

Not cherry picking, condensing, and that was the only part that needed to be added to. As far as "what I say"......

I say customers that are concerned with a watch company telling us they are true Swiss Made timepieces yet don't use that full and proper indication for absolute

proof, these customers have every right to question and be skeptical over that Swiss Made claim. After all, you are pretty much taking the rep's or host's word for it only based off the brand's own internal policies, and not any kind of regulations or laws. We have seen problems with this before with another SNBC brand.

So what really is being argued here is, can Invicta be trusted as a true Swiss

watch making company.

Because if they are not a member of the "frat" or "club" (FH) and they

simply label their dails with the word "Swiss" they must be lairs and trying

to pull the wool over everybodies eyes. And of course this must be true because their products cost so little to

purchase, right. Isn't that a bit like saying a man can't be trusted or isn't honorable because

he's not a member of a (insert group or frat here). I'm guessing you may have seen Jim's post where he used pictures of

several Pateks labeled only "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock to show that even

members of the FH label their watches in the same way.

Now I understand healthy skiptisisim, but I think if Invicta were the boogie

man that they are made out to be, the rest of the Swiss watch making world

would've already made it very difficult to remain in business parts wise.

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#54

Yesterday, 05:25 AM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by unclefixit

So what really is being argued here is, can Invicta be trusted as a true

Swiss watch making company. Because if they are not a member of the "frat" or "club" (FH) and they

simply label their dails with the word "Swiss" they must be lairs and trying

to pull the wool over everybodies eyes. And of course this must be true because their products cost so little to

purchase, right.

Isn't that a bit like saying a man can't be trusted or isn't honorable because

he's not a member of a (insert group or frat here). I'm guessing you may have seen Jim's post where he used pictures of

several Pateks labeled only "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock to show that even

members of the FH label their watches in the same way. Now I understand healthy skiptisisim, but I think if Invicta were the boogie

man that they are made out to be, the rest of the Swiss watch making

world would've already made it very difficult to remain in business parts

wise.

Please don't put words in my mouth and I will promise you the same courtesy in kind,

thank you. Bottom line, yes you are taking a bit of a "leap of faith" when non-Swiss Federation members simply use "Swiss" instead of the full of "Swiss Made" designation.

Companies have abused it prior so some skepticism is understandable. Is it so unreasonable to ask questions when some one sees a change and is unsure why a model like the Akula which has been marked "Swiss Made" on the dial and caseback

until these newest releases all the sudden changes? Especially when Invicta is going in head first with Swiss component movements right now?

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#55

Yesterday, 06:04 AM

CLEANS-HIGH Senior Member

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buy Seiko and Orient and there would be no confusion

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#56

Yesterday, 06:30 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Not when the circumstances of the confusion keep changing.

Sea Spider Sport (marked Swiss on the dial and Swiss Parts Movt on caseback) Understood as a mistake.

Racing RD OTV (Swiss Movt on dial but was a Swiss Part Movt). The Akula in question by the original poster has changed from the customary "Swiss

Made" we are used to on the Akula's, and now simply says Swiss. On the caseback it states "Swiss Reserve Collection Chronograph Movement" which is a little confusing, again moving away from the Swiss Made marked casebacks on the Akula. Probably explained away as visual queue.

I am not doubting your information, you certainly know better than I as far as Invicta's policies. But there have been enough examples in recent history that

makes this topic come up again and again.

maybe the case back on this model is a space deal and no punctuation and really would be swiss; reserve collection; chronograph movement.

just a thought , a lot of times it will kind of run together. gk.

Last edited by streekingeek; Yesterday at 06:30 AM. Reason: sp

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#57

Yesterday, 08:13 AM

Evil Empire Senior Member Senior Geek

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Wow I had no idea this simple question would cause such fuss. I accepted flyback's

answer yesterday and went to sleep. I work shift work...you talked a lot while i was sleeping..LOL Thanks again for the info.

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#58

Yesterday, 08:33 AM

Flyback Senior Member

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman

. . . A watch that follows the USA Federal Trade Commission (FTC) will permit and consider a watch as "Swiss Made" . . .

The FTC does not specifically regulate the use of country origin on watches as 16 CFR 245 where they previously held that authority was rescinded in 1999. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...id=fr09jn99-10

All applicable country of Origin regulations regarding watches are found in U.S. Customs Regulations, 19 CFR Part 177.

It's the joint application of the U.S. Customs requirements and the Swiss Watch

Federation's registered trademark for "Swiss Made" that create the framework for compliance.

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#59

Yesterday, 08:35 AM

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Great discussion and still the answer is clear as mud.

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#60

Yesterday, 08:36 AM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by KOKONUTZ Michael, acording to the Swiss federation.... (http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php, the

use of Swiss Movt on the dial is incorrect. Hence, that is why when Invicta brought out the original scuba, you used the full Swiss Movement on the face at the 6 o'clock position...all labeling of swiss movt by you and other mfgs is incorrect.

wrong right

ONLY if you're a member of the Swiss Federation. Others can use whatever terms they like so long as they don't violate country of origin regulations or violate trademarks.

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#61

Yesterday, 09:11 AM

Hotspur Senior Member

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My Rolex Day/Date (for instance) has merely "Swiss" at the 6:00. No question as to its authenticity according to my Rolex AD.

__________________ They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock)

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#62

Yesterday, 09:51 AM

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Bottom line guys, Invicta is not a Swiss product. It is not a product of Switzerland. It is not a Swiss company. The only thing Swiss about some Invicta watches is that they (barely) adhere to the

regulations for the watches which are marked "Swiss Made," and in all other instances the word "Swiss" is used as a marketing tool. Examples of this include: The "Technica Swiss Ebauche" movements and "Swiss Gold layering." Gimme a break, there is

nothing Swiss about either of those things. Does that actually fool anyone? Yes, of

course it does, that's why they do it!

Invicta is not the only company doing this, of course. Look at Renato: they mark all their dials like this:

"SWISS MOVEMENT HAND MADE"

LOL! Gimme a break!

Don't fall for it guys.

If you want a Swiss watch, you gotta buy a Swiss watch. And it's not just Omega and up, there are affordable brands that are honest products of Switzerland from Swiss companies.

Reputation DOES mean something. And you DO get what you pay for. The cost of an Omega is not just to pay the endorsement contracts and other advertising. That's just one example.

All that said, Invicta makes a great watch. Enjoy them for what they are! If you have one that says Swiss Made, personally I like that, but I know it really doesn't mean anything. An Invicta is an Invicta.

Have fun guys! What a great hobby!

Eric. __________________

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#63

Yesterday, 10:05 AM

DIAMANTE Senior Member

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin .....snip....

When Invicta puts Swiss only on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch....snip....

So why the change to Swiss only on the dials of the Akula, Venom, S1 Touring, etc....? The change coincides with the change in movement - a movement that could be made

in Asia. I realize their is a lot of secrecy in the watch industry and if it comes out that in fact

these newer versions are actually using the Asian made Ronda 5040d then Invicta's credibility is going to take a massive hit? You are on the record as saying when Invicta uses Swiss they are meeting the

guidelines to use Swiss Made which means the movement must be Swiss Made. All it is going to take is for someone to pop the case back and we will know for sure. I don't own one of these models but I'm tempted to buy one just take a look.

D __________________

Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c)

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#64

Yesterday, 10:11 AM

Owlwatch Senior Member

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I don't know...it seems that any company that truly desires to communicate to the

buying public, with dependability and integrity, that particular watches are Swiss Made would place that label at the six dial mark. Not at three dial mark, not at the nine dial mark, etc. Invicta does this with several of their watches…Reserve and others. Why not with all that are said to be Swiss Made to avoid questions and

confusion …JMHO

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#65

Yesterday, 10:19 AM

reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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Quote:

Originally Posted by erictrumpet

Bottom line guys, Invicta is not a Swiss product. It is not a product of Switzerland. It is not a Swiss company.

The only thing Swiss about some Invicta watches is that they (barely) adhere to the regulations for the watches which are marked "Swiss Made," and in all other instances the word "Swiss" is used as a marketing tool. Examples of this include: The "Technica Swiss Ebauche" movements and "Swiss Gold layering." Gimme a

break, there is nothing Swiss about either of those things. Does that actually fool

anyone? Yes, of course it does, that's why they do it!


"SWISS MOVEMENT HAND MADE" LOL! Gimme a break!

Don't fall for it guys. If you want a Swiss watch, you gotta buy a Swiss watch. And it's not just Omega and up, there are affordable brands that are honest products of Switzerland from

Swiss companies. Reputation DOES mean something. And you DO get what you pay for. The cost of

an Omega is not just to pay the endorsement contracts and other advertising. That's just one example. All that said, Invicta makes a great watch. Enjoy them for what they are! If you

have one that says Swiss Made, personally I like that, but I know it really doesn't mean anything. An Invicta is an Invicta.


Eric.

Is this your personal speculation or do you have proof about not only Invicta but Omega too.How does anyone really know what a true Swiss made watch is when the all outsource from China.Renato has never said Swiss Made on any of their dials and if

you own any of them you wll see that they are Hand Made. __________________

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#66

Yesterday, 10:29 AM


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Not sure you can "barely" adhere to the Swiss federation guidelines for "Swiss Made."

That is like being "a little" pregnant. Either Invicta does hold to those guidelines when a dial says "Swiss Made" at the 6, or it does not. Based on customs regs and trademark law, there would be no reason to believe they do not. The "Swiss" at the 6

position is another story, but once again, Michael has stated that Invicta's company policy is that "Swiss" at the 6 means they follow the guidelines of the Swiss federation and are therefore Swiss made. If you don't believe him, that is your right, however until you can prove otherwise it is all speculation.

__________________ "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy." -Billy Currington

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#67

Yesterday, 10:37 AM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by reliefcp (snip) How does anyone really know what a true Swiss made watch is when the[y] all

outsource from China. (snip)

True! I agree completely. Eric. __________________

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#68

Yesterday, 10:39 AM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1

Not sure you can "barely" adhere to the Swiss federation guidelines for "Swiss Made." That is like being "a little" pregnant. (snip)

Agreed, not an ideal choice of words on my part. But I think you get my point: Invicta is not a Swiss watch, but does what is necessary - and ONLY what is minimally necessary - to "earn" the right to print Swiss Made on the dial, and only then for

merely marketing purposes. And of course Invicta is not alone in this. Eric. __________________

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#69

Yesterday, 10:44 AM

tampa8 Senior Member

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For me it's not about believing Mike or anyone for that matter. If they say it is swiss made I'm sure it is. Here's the problem. First, what do they mean by swiss made. Is it swiss made, say as

an Omega, or is it swiss made by some other calculation/meaning. Second, why not simply put Swiss Made on the dial instead of Swiss? __________________

Remember, watches are people too.

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#70

Yesterday, 10:45 AM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1 (snip)"Swiss" at the 6 means they follow the guidelines of the Swiss federation and

are therefore Swiss made.

This is the misleading information that is routinely posted on this site that caused my

first post on this subject. Only on vintage pieces from Swiss companies does "Swiss" truly equal "Swiss Made" because they were made before the regulations became more specific.

Swiss does NOT mean Swiss Made.

Swiss at 3 o'clock does NOT mean Swiss Made.

They ain't Swiss watches, guys

Think about a Ford. Is it an American car? So much of it is outsourced, so, you might argue no it is not American made. But it's an American car in the sense that it's an American company. I'd rather think of Invictas as American watches since it's an

American company now (long ago it was a Swiss company), and some of its success is based upon sales on American home shopping TV. They used to have a Made in the USA line of watches, wish they'd bring that back.

The perpetuation of myth in an attempt to appear Swiss in origin is tiresome and

unethical. But, "everybody does it." But does that make it right? Eric. __________________

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#71

Yesterday, 11:04 AM

heavyjumbo Senior Member

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DIAMANTE So why the change to Swiss only on the dials of the Akula, Venom, S1 Touring, etc....?

Agreed -- there is no other logical explanation. I guess its entirely possible that Invicta went through the trouble of changing the wording on all of these dials even though the watch is still Swiss Made. However, I highly doubt this is the case.

__________________ Paul G. Boca Raton, FL

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#72

Yesterday, 11:07 AM

Time Bandit Senior Member

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Quote:


Swiss does NOT mean Swiss Made.

Read Eric's post, This is as simply put as it can be, and the real truth in those 6 words!

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#73

Yesterday, 11:10 AM

KOKONUTZ Senior Member

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback ONLY if you're a member of the Swiss Federation. Others can use whatever terms they like so long as they don't violate country of origin regulations or violate

trademarks.

Not sure I understand what you're saying here Brad.

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#74

Yesterday, 11:12 AM


Super Geek

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Posts: 1,299 Real Name: Paul

Quote:


Not sure you can "barely" adhere to the Swiss federation guidelines for "Swiss Made." That is like being "a little" pregnant. Either Invicta does hold to those guidelines when a dial says "Swiss Made" at the 6, or it does not. Based on customs regs and trademark law, there would be no reason to believe they do not. The

"Swiss" at the 6 position is another story, but once again, Michael has stated that Invicta's company policy is that "Swiss" at the 6 means they follow the guidelines of the Swiss federation and are therefore Swiss made. If you don't believe him, that is

your right, however until you can prove otherwise it is all speculation.

Well put Matt. __________________

Paul G. Boca Raton, FL

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#75

Yesterday, 11:12 AM


True WatchGeek

Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA

Posts: 17,384

Real Name: Brad

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1 Not sure you can "barely" adhere to the Swiss federation guidelines for "Swiss Made." That is like being "a little" pregnant. Either Invicta does hold to those guidelines when a dial says "Swiss Made" at the 6, or it does not. Based on customs

regs and trademark law, there would be no reason to believe they do not. The "Swiss" at the 6 position is another story, but once again, Michael has stated that

Invicta's company policy is that "Swiss" at the 6 means they follow the guidelines of the Swiss federation and are therefore Swiss made. If you don't believe him, that is

your right, however until you can prove otherwise it is all speculation.

Clear, concise and to the point Matt. __________________


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Real Name: Jerry

Brad, I read your quote in response to my post, and if I substitute

US Customs for the FTC would my statement be correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman "Swiss Made" or "Swiss" under the 6 o'clock make it a

Swiss made watch only if it conforms to the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry (FH) regulations. A watch that follows the USA Federal Trade Commission (FTC) will permit and consider a watch as "Swiss Made" merely with

a Swiss made movement. In this case the word "Swiss" can also be placed under the six o'clock. So when buying a watch you need to know what regulations / agency the

watch company is complying with, which could be difficult. To be safe "Swiss Made" under the 6 o'clock guarantees a true Swiss Made watch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback The FTC does not specifically regulate the use of country origin on watches as 16 CFR 245 where they previously held that authority was rescinded in 1999.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...id=fr09jn99-10 All applicable country of Origin regulations regarding watches are found in U.S. Customs Regulations, 19 CFR

Part 177.

It's the joint application of the U.S. Customs requirements

and the Swiss Watch Federation's registered trademark for "Swiss Made" that create the framework for compliance.

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#77

Yesterday, 11:28 AM

erictrumpet Senior Member Super Geek

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Guys, I suggest you not get too wrapped up in the details of customs law or anything like that. Just look at the bigger picture: this whole issue is about MANAGING

PERCEPTION. It is good business for a watch to be perceived as originating from Switzerland, so a non-Swiss watch company like Invicta which sells some officially "Swiss Made"

watches will also put the word Swiss everywhere they can on all their product lines, and then allow the ambiguity of it all to manipulate the consumer into thinking they are all Swiss watches. It's all about perception. Which is the whole purpose of

marketing anyway! Heck, why do you think the name "Invicta" was even worth buying, when the

company was purchased in the early 1990s? Because it was a Swiss company, with a Swiss heritage, that could be milked for marketing purposes. Nothing wrong with that, but you should be aware that it's a formerly Swiss name that is now attached to products most of which are not even remotely Swiss in origin.

Buy and enjoy your watches, no matter where they come from!

If you get more enjoyment from your $69 Invicta Russian Diver with the word "Swiss" at 3 o'clock by believing it was built by a master crafsman in Geneva, more power to

ya

Eric. __________________

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#78

Yesterday, 11:29 AM

Evil Empire Senior Member

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here is what I am going to do...put on my favorite watch...no matter what the dial says and go outside and be thankful I live in a country that is free and where I am allowed to have an opinion...

Ok everyone go outside except Jim...Jim you get better..

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#79

Yesterday, 11:30 AM


True WatchGeek

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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman Brad,

I read your quote in response to my post, and if I substitute US Customs for the FTC would my statement be correct?

Yes and no. Swiss Made is a registered trademark, and accordingly it differs from U.S. Customs labeling regulations. It's really not complicated. In the U.S. if is says "Swiss Made" it must comply with the Swiss Federation's requirements, whether the

company selling the watch is a member or not. According to U.S. Customs labeling regulations, "Swiss" only requires that the movement be from Switzerland and it conveys nothing other than that.

So whether a watch with Swiss at the six is actually Swiss made as per the federation standards is completely up to the company that applies it. Michael stated earlier today that Invicta adheres to the standards no matter which is used.

I have a couple of Croton watches with Swiss movements that say "Swiss" at the six position, and I take it to mean the watch was made outside of Switzerland using the Swiss movement. The same goes for the ESQ by Movado watches that I own, Movado

watches are made in Switzerland, ESQ by Movado have Swiss movements but are made elsewhere. __________________

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#80

Yesterday, 11:34 AM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Empire Ok everyone go outside except Jim...Jim you get better..

Ok, I'm going outside. I have to move 5 yards of topsoil.

Make sure to call me if you guys all come to an understanding.

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#81

Yesterday, 11:35 AM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Empire here is what I am going to do...put on my favorite watch...no matter what the dial

says and go outside and be thankful I live in a country that is free and where I am allowed to have an opinion... Ok everyone go outside except Jim...Jim you get better..

Perhaps the best post of the day...I'm bout ready to pull off the brisket and ribs that have been in my smoker for the past 10 hours. Couple that with some ribeyes on the

Q and a few cold ones and to be honest, won't matter a lick of the country of origin of my watch. Why? Because we can have these discussions and then enjoy our evening without worries of any "knocks" on the door...Isn't liberty a wonderful thang? __________________

"God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy." -Billy Currington

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#82

Yesterday, 11:38 AM


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Quote:


Perhaps the best post of the day...I'm bout ready to pull off the brisket and ribs that have been in my smoker for the past 10 hours. Couple that with some ribeyes on the Q and a few cold ones and to be honest, won't matter a lick of the country of

origin of my watch. Why? Because we can have these discussions and then enjoy our evening without worries of any "knocks" on the door...Isn't liberty a wonderful thang?

Yeah buddy, get outside and enjoy the day... the freedom... U.S.A.!!! Thanks to those who serve and served, especially those lost! That's what this day is about. They don't

have sh!t to celebrate in Switzerland today. LOL!

Eric. __________________

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#83

Yesterday, 11:43 AM


Master WatchGeek

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Found the U.S. Custom's Publication on how watches should be labeled depending on where they are made. I'm reading it now. It appears to answer all our questions on this topic.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...cEjP8Qes5pmcXQ __________________

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#84

Yesterday, 11:56 AM

rjaybass Senior Member

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I'm going to take Michael Davis and Jim Skeltons' word on this. Invicta has done right by me so far. And that is the end of it. May God bless the United States of America. __________________ [SIGPIC]

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#85

Yesterday, 12:04 PM


Master WatchGeek

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Here is part of the document I mentioned above:

"• Under 19 U.S.C.1304, as interpreted by Customs, the country of origin of the movement of the watch or clock determines the country of origin of the watch or clock. Although the addition of the hands, dial, or case adds definition to the

timepiece, they do not substantially change the character or use of the watch or clock movement, which is the essence of the watch or clock. Accordingly, a watch with one country of

origin for the movement, another for the case, and another for the battery, is considered, for purposes of 19 USC 1304, to be a product of the country in which the movement was produced. The movement's country of origin should appear

conspicuously and legibly on the dial face or on the outside of the back of the watch or clock.

Acceptable markings for watches and clocks consist of just the name of the country of origin or the name of the country of origin preceded by “Made in,” “Product of” or similar

words. Also acceptable is the use of the word “Movement” or an abbreviation such as “Mov't” or “Movt” along with the name of the country. Examples of acceptable markings for a watch or clock if the movement is assembled in Hong Kong would be: “Hong

Kong,” “Hong Kong Movement,” “Movement Hong Kong,” or “MOVT Hong Kong.” The wording “Swiss Made” is another example of an acceptable marking if the country of origin is Switzerland."

What I get from this publication is the origin of a watch is where the movement is made. The other parts of the watch can be made anywhere and the watch doesn't have to be assembled in Switzerland, AND CAN HAVE "SWISS MADE ON THE DIAL OR

CASEBACK." However, I think it might be incorrect because IMO to list "Swiss Made" on the dial it must conform with Swiss Federation guidelines.

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#86

Yesterday, 12:30 PM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman What I get from this publication is the origin of a watch is where the movement is made. The other parts of the watch can be made anywhere and the watch doesn't

have to be assembled in Switzerland, AND CAN HAVE "SWISS MADE ON THE DIAL OR CASEBACK." However, I think it might be incorrect because IMO to list "Swiss Made" on the dial it

must conform with Swiss Federation guidelines.

I have quoted the relevant summary of these U.S. Customs regs in a number of these

threads. And as I've stated in conjunction with those posts, "Swiss" does not mean Swiss Made, only that the movement is Swiss. Although a company is free to use only Swiss on a Swiss Made watch if they choose to do so.

I agree with you that Customs made an error in the statement quoted above. Undoubtedly prepared by a technical writer for the agency that has no knowledge of the Federation's Registered Trademark.

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#87

Yesterday, 02:35 PM

Bahoomba Senior Member

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Flyback as usual nailed it. Personally, at this point, when I see "Swiss," I think Swiss parts movement; "Swiss Made" is what I look for in most cases to signify a true "Swiss-made watch." The ol' 51 percent rule.

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#88

Yesterday, 04:48 PM

reliefcp Senior Member

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Quote:


Bottom line guys, Invicta is not a Swiss product. It is not a product of Switzerland. It is not a Swiss company. The only thing Swiss about some Invicta watches is that they (barely) adhere to the

regulations for the watches which are marked "Swiss Made," and in all other instances the word "Swiss" is used as a marketing tool. Examples of this include: The "Technica Swiss Ebauche" movements and "Swiss Gold layering." Gimme a

break, there is nothing Swiss about either of those things. Does that actually fool

anyone? Yes, of course it does, that's why they do it!


"SWISS MOVEMENT HAND MADE" LOL! Gimme a break!

Don't fall for it guys.

If you want a Swiss watch, you gotta buy a Swiss watch. And it's not just Omega and up, there are affordable brands that are honest products of Switzerland from

Swiss companies. Reputation DOES mean something. And you DO get what you pay for. The cost of an Omega is not just to pay the endorsement contracts and other advertising.

That's just one example. All that said, Invicta makes a great watch. Enjoy them for what they are! If you

have one that says Swiss Made, personally I like that, but I know it really doesn't mean anything. An Invicta is an Invicta.


Eric.

I stand corrected ET. There is another thread today that may prove you right. __________________

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#89

Today, 04:25 AM


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Let's hope there is a rational explantion for all of this. __________________

Paul G. Boca Raton, FL

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#90

Today, 06:41 AM

Owlwatch Senior Member

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Quote:

Originally Posted by erictrumpet ...It is good business for a watch to be perceived as originating from Switzerland, so a non-Swiss watch company like Invicta which sells some officially "Swiss Made" watches will also put the word Swiss everywhere they can on all their product lines,

and then allow the ambiguity of it all to manipulate the consumer into thinking they are all Swiss watches. It's all about perception. Which is the whole purpose of marketing anyway...Buy and enjoy your watches, no matter where they come from...

I strongly agree with your comments! I truly find my joy in the actual timepiece vs.

where it was either born or was raised. Be it born or raised in Europe, Asia, North

or South America...it's all good with me...I'm looking forward to having one from Africa one day!

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#91

Today, 12:06 PM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Owlwatch ...I'm looking forward to having one from Africa one day!

You sure come up with some doozies! That is funny as heck.

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#92

Today, 12:27 PM

DavidHRC Junior Member New Geek

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Really, really swiss

I once heard George J Von Burg (a principal in Stuhrling) that his own watch brand (George J Von Burg, not Stuhrling) is ALL swiss, including manufacture of the presentation box. I could tell he felt strongly. But while I respect his dedication, this is

too much for me (or more than is reasonable).

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#93

Today, 10:35 PM


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So do they make any watches that are really swiss made?

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#94

Today, 10:40 PM


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Empire So do they make any watches that are really swiss made?

Yes. __________________

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#95

Today, 10:47 PM


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Well thats good to know ,most of my invicta watches are reserve watches,my wife owns a few swiss movement watches but they were marked so ,thanks for your info on this subject I learned a lot this weekend.not sure if ill buy any more .I was looking for a ETA vj7750 all weekend looks like its going to be a sector have a good one

Documents

Swiss made or not part 2