St

St. Georges Students Union

Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM)

5.30pm

18th January 2016

Michael Heron Lecture Theatre

MINUTES

***

Quorum was achieved as over 60 students were present.

I. Business

a. Apologies

Santhiya Panchanantharajah on behalf of Tamil Society.

II. The Unions stance on Junior Doctor contracts and industrial action

a. A statement from the President - Steven Gilbert

See Appendix A.

b. A statement from the Vice-President: Education & Welfare Kat Telford

See Appendix B

c. Q&A session and open feedback

Questions and Answers:

Rob Birley (MBBS5): Just how things are going to proceed today Obviously the Junior Doctor Contract crisis has thrown up a lot of things that the government are doing, rather than just the idea of striking. Are we going to be voting whether the SU can say they approve of those? Or is it just going to be about the strike? Because obviously this room might say as a whole, that they dont agree with striking, but at the same time they might totally disagree with the contract being enforced, misuse of scientific data, and I still think its imperative for the SU to react strongly to those, even if we say we are not going for a strike, we dont believe in the strikes.

Kat Telford: Im really glad you asked that question. When we were thinking about how we would question our populous, our members, on their opinions regarding this matter, you get a massive variety of responses, depending on the question. I mean if I asked everyone in the room Do you support the junior doctor contract dispute, probably 90 something or 100% would say completely; if you said Do you support junior doctors taking strike, it might be slightly less; and if you said something else like Do you support a complete walkout, we might have even less of a response. So the SGSU, and the question we ask, is so important, which is why we recognized in our statements to you, that actually, opinions on this matter are completely varied. So if we were to poll our members, it would simply, most likely be, a question of do you want the SU to support the students and be actively against the junior doctor dispute, or not, or do you abstain. That would probably be our question if we were to ask.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): The junior doctor dispute is a huge range of issues, it isnt just the strikes. But thats whats going to be playing on everyones minds, a full walkout. According to all the data, weve got 2 dates for strikes, then one for a full walkout. A full emergency walkout is a very unthinkable option for most of us, with regards to many, but the contract being enforced, thats not something I would like to deal with. I dont know how everyone else feels about that. So, saying its all one issue is, in my opinion, a bit naive. Im sorry it will take longer to discuss these issues.

George Williams (MBBS4): I want to know why the students didnt get a choice to vote Yes or No before the SU took a stance on it? I dont see why we didnt get the option to choose, as we are all part of the SU.

Kat Telford: So, we did have our meetings, as we have clarified, available to all students to attend, if they wanted to have a particular voice on this. Many students did utilize those avenues, we had many students who came to see both me and Steven, and organized appointments with us privately to discuss our stance, and why were taking it, and their views and opinions; and they were quite happy with the consultation we had. Ultimately, this was a big issue, that was really thrown on us as an SU, when we were quite young, when we had just started our contract, and we followed the advice of our elders, with much more experience in these matters than us, and we agreed with the advice they gave us, and thats the stance we took. Because as outlined by Steven, we dont have a concrete process by which to completely poll absolutely everyone. And without a concrete process or procedure to go about doing that, it felt slightly naive of us to just step into the unknown, not knowing what was going to happen, without any safeguarding against the minority. Because with every single popular opinion, there is going to be a minority, and also safeguarding everyone else in the process, as well.

George Williams (MBBS4): Are going to have a concrete process for any future problems like this?

Kat Telford: It is certainly something we are putting 100%, all of our efforts, into to achieve now. I have already contacted our friends in NUS, the governance team, who weve already organized a meeting with to really get cracking with a policy that would fully suit SGSU, because we are different to many other unions, in that we are fully healthcare professionals. Its something thats definitely on my homework pile, but at the top of it, so absolutely.

Jonathon Frost (MBBS4): Its good that you guys wanted to safeguard the people who have been coming to you, because they are feeling victimized by the strength of feeling or potentially unpleasantries. I am in favor of this view. But, at the same time, following on from the point at the back, by having come from the people that have come to see you, or a couple of people that maybe come to meetings, and that having 6 people write letters to you, thats not actually in any way representative of the student body, whatsoever. When it comes to that sort of thing, you havent actually answered the question, are you actually going to poll the student body or may you come to a decision yourselves?

Steven Gilbert: If it is that you, the student body, that they wish to be polled, if thats the way they want to go down, then we will facilitate that. We are certainly not going to sit here at the end of this meeting, and do nothing. As people have already said, the feeling is that people are not happy with what we have done, we are certainly not going to go back and stick to our guns. That doesnt make any sense.

Kat Telford: So as we said in our statements, it is a shame St Georges has notoriously been an apolitical Union. But theres no reason for it, times change, the SU voice changes, students voices change, if we want to become a more politically active Union, if thats what our members want, of course. This year is such a positive year, because we have had the set up of the Protest & Activism Society, and if we can get this process, this policy, created and this is what our members want, then it can really initiate change in this Union, hopefully for the better.

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): So, with a student population of over 2000, and we have precisely 6, I quote, disgruntled people. I would be interested to know how the other unions, you had a 6 hour meeting back in November I believe you said, how did they choose to proceed? Did they also take the decision based on what they assumed their students would want. You know, did the likes of Imperial and Kings, did they actually go to a vote?

Steven Gilbert: So, UH MedGroup is made up of RUMs, BARTs, Imperial, GKT and us. Everyone but Imperial did theirs really really quickly. So they took it to their parent unions, so RUMs went to UCL, GKT went to KCL etc, and they passed it at their council meetings which is not open to the student body, but is open to representatives only; and they passed as a motion there and then. I think Kings passed with about 30 people, but UCL has a much larger council, but the same principle applies. Imperial only passed their motion last week, the thing is they were holding back, because they recently put their Biomeds into ICSM, and they actually felt quite uncomfortable making a stance off of the bat until they had confirmation as to who they represented and how they got their opinions. So they actually stuck to their guns for a little bit, but they did go out there and poll.

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): OK, and what was the result of that?

Steven Gilbert: All of them have passed a motion to support the Junior Doctors in the Contract dispute and be for industrial action.

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): Ok, and coming back to what Kat said, you said you would kindly now put the results of your meetings, and minutes and things our NUS website.

Kat Telford: I said that for the guidelines, because the minutes are already up there.

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): Indeed, so you are presenting, explaining to us that, oh were agreeing at council. And now you are going to put forward the mechanisms for this decision making process you had in place, but how can we have confidence, that you have come to this decision, based on the opinions of 6 disgruntled people, and only now are you actually explaining to us even the mechanisms of how we could have been involve previously. How are we meant to have confidence?

Kat Telford: When you say mechanisms do you mean Council, Exec & Senate?

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): Well, yes.

Ruth Varney: Sorry, can I jump in here and say; the wording on the email that I send out is Councilis a meeting open toall studentsto discuss any issues and feedback to the SU, and you are on the mailing list so you would have got it. So, if thats something you didnt feel was communicated properly, I really would love to hear from you and see how we can communicate so that people can come and talk to us about these sorts of situations, in that meeting, better. Does that make sense?

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): OK but you should have the links available before it comes to this.

Ruth Varney: The minutes are already online. Theyve been online since the day of the meeting.

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): Sorry, [Kat] just said you were going to make these links available.

Kat Telford: Im sorry, I meant the NUS guidelines. I said I can send links just showing where [the minutes] are on the website. The link to our No Platform Policy and our constitution has always been on our website, since the website came into existence.

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): So your no platform policy, which is to support subgroups, e.g., Hannah Barham, who has somewhat become the face of junior doctors despite having not graduated yet, but has been on every news outlet in Greater London. So on the one hand you are saying youve got a zero political stance, and yet Hannah has become the face of this campaign, and youre supporting her. But yet, 1 individual or 2 individuals, and we still havent been balloted. So you are supporting 2 people without having given the rest of us a vote, on the strength of 6 peoples malcontent.

Leo Trinik (MBBS4): I understand these issues are difficult, do you think youve handled this as well as you could have done, given that youve already said you think at least 90% of your student populous support junior doctors, and youre not representing those views. It seems like the majority of the student body werent made aware of the decision. Do you think that taking this course of action was right?

Kat Telford: So far, yes. We followed advice given to us, and the means were open. We did have those processes available. Im certainly one for not doing something that we dont have a procedure or a process for, because then there are repercussions which can hit you. That is, so far, what we have done, and I agree with it. However, that can be changed. We can create a process and change the stance from now.

Leo Trinik (MBBS4): Do you not feel like you need to take more responsibility for the proactivty of communicating this information? If the majority of the student body are unaware as they were, of the process that was happening, I understand when you say you wouldnt want to be too whimsical, but as a Students Union you need to take responsibility for your actions.

Kat Telford: We made the decision to kind of support by informing you guys; and I do believe we informed you.

Leo Trinik (MBBS4): But we werent informed. Thats the problem.

Steven Gilbert: So, its an interesting question, and one we have been toying with. I certainly would say that I think we could be more proactive. But I will say, that it is the responsibility of both parties to engage with the Students Union. We can sit all day and throw information at you, invite you to everything we can invite you to; but if people dont turn up, or dont engage from the body, theres no way the heads going to know. Theres absolutely no way. And we have given, with the procedures we have, ample opportunities for people to feedback to us. And our doors are always open, and there hasnt been an immense number of people knocking down my door.

Kat Telford: Some members have utilized those avenues, as I said.

Leo Trinik (MBBS4): So are you saying that it is our responsibility to come and knock down your door?

Steven Gilbert: Im saying, I believe we can be more proactive in it. But it is the responsibility of the body to also engage back. And I will stand and say, there has been a deafening silence, from quite a large part of the student body, not saying very much at all. But the people who have come to us, we have engaged with.

Victoria Whitford (MBBS4): First of all, thank you for giving us this opportunity to talk to you, its really helpful. Now I want to look forwards rather than back, and can you tell me are you going to have a procedure for us to make a decision, collectively as a student body, to form a stance, that being a positive stance rather than a neutral one, on the junior doctors contract? And will you give us a timeline for doing that? It is a really important issue, and the fact that St Georges Medical School is sitting back, is the kind of thing that will be noticed in government. And its the kind of thing that allows the junior doctor contracts to go forward. Students do actually make a difference in government, and government watches what we do.

Kat Telford: So following the discussion, our Chair is already going to sum up the two options for you.

Chair: There are 2 options that we have:

1) We can pass a motion based on this meeting now, thats with the 72 members of however many thousand we have. Whatever motion that is, we will pass that and then instantly that will be the stance of the union. Its not representative, its not particularly the best way to go.

2) We hold a referendum. So we will decide on what that referendum will be now, that can go up on to the SGSU website as of sometime tomorrow, it will be up for a week if thats appropriate, probably before the next strike day. That has to have a minimum of 150 people vote, which I dont think will be a problem, and then that will be the stance of the union. So that will be in about a weeks time, a week and a bit. Thats the second, more attractive option.

Alex Browne (MBBS5): So, the way I see it, pragmatically speaking, the Final Years are probably going to be most at risk with this situation, but understandably the moment that they are exposed to the contracts theyll, Id imagine, not be under the Students Union care and be within the Deaneries. Has there been any communication with the Deaneries and with the Students Union about how to best protect Final Years?

Kat Telford: Ok, so just to clarify, all alumni are lifelong members of the SU, so you are certainly still under our protection and our support. With regards to contacting the deaneries, we have been in contact with the BMA reps here at Georges and also in contact with Johann as well, and everything theyve been doing. But with the deaneries, not really, no.

*name unknown* MBBS4: First of all, thank you for giving up your time and volunteering. My question is, can you tell us who exactly advised you to take a neutral stance? You mentioned some senior people in the university.

Kat Telford: So, we spoke to our line managers, one of which is Deborah Bowman and the second one is Judith Ibison. And we also spoke to our Trustee board. So the trustees consist of our student trustees, one of which is Michael John whos here now, also Martin Gannon, Tanisha Amin and theres 4 externals who are typically staff who have worked at Georges or within the union before, who now no longer do that and advise us on things like this.

*name unknown* MBBS4: Sorry, do you know their exact positions, for the people you have named?

Kat Telford: So the student trustees, the ones that I mentioned, Michael, Martin and Tanisha; we have our 2 line managers who are also trustees, thats Deborah Bowman and Judith Ibison, we are all trustees as well, so the Top 4, and also our external trustees as well.

*name unknown* MBBS4: Sorry, I dont think Ive been very clear, what are their exact roles?

Steven Gilbert: Deborah is Dean for Students and Judith is the associate Dean for students.

*name unknown* MBBS4: And the students? I know Michael.

Kat Telford: Of varying courses. They were elected in along with the Executive last summer, in the general elections. Martin Gannon is a final year medic, Michael is year one GEP and Tanisha is a third year biomed.

*name unknown* MBBS4: And the external trustees?

Steven Gilbert: Kea Horvers is the ex E&D officer for this University, Roger Horton is the ex-deputy principal and name sake of Horton Halls, Mark Lubbock who is a Solicitor, and Ian Spiers who used to be head of Estates and Facilities here at Georges.

Joseph Toms (MBBS4): Just a couple of questions, you mentioned putting to a vote, about what we would like to do, the Student Union body. Obviously as youve already said, probably 90% or more are going to be in favor of junior doctor contracts, what are you then going to do about the 6 people that feel pressured already, if the Students Union comes out and says Oh, by the way we are supporting junior contracts? You cant be on both sides of the fence. And I think from what Ive gathered here, the apathy that has appeared is apparent, is whats annoying us the most, and I think youve mentioned, theres emails sent out saying if you want to talk to us, come talk to us. I think what we need from our Students Union is somebody to lead us rather than to open their door if we happen to think that weve read something in between the lines of an email, to say if youve got a problem. If you are going to send an email out about Junior Doctor Contracts view, it needs to be said, This is an opportunity to voice your concerns, your questions, about junior doctors like today, whereas the previous one, where nobody turned up, no wonder, it said if theres anything youd like to talk to us about. Weve all got lots of things wed like to talk about but were not going to bother coming in just for that. So I want to know first of all, how are you going to protect people who are being victimized already? Second of all, how are you going to change the way in which you send out communications, because thats obviously a bit of a problem, judging from some of the questions?

Kat Telford: Ill tackle the first one, if you dont mind? So that has always been my concern. And it does make me very uncomfortable that if we do take this stance, we must have a process or a policy in place because there has to be some kind of safeguard for the minority. So my answer now is, I dont know. And that is why I have directed all my questions and concerns to the NUS who are helping us develop this policy, because that is my main concern. Right now, really I think it would be making it crystal clear, if we were to take a stance, that my role, in particular, is completely non-judgmental, as it always is, completely non-judgmental and I do not care what stance you are on it, if you need to speak to someone, or if you need to access support services, that accessibility will not be affected by what position you take, for that reason I remain completely private about my views on the matter so that anyone feels comfortable to come and speak to me.

Steven Gilbert: Could you just elaborate on the second part of your question please?

Joseph Toms (MBBS4): Basically, the kind of things that go out, were told that were not coming to you and telling you about our problems, with, in this case, the Junior Doctor Contracts. Obviously thats because of the way the invitation is sent out, kind of very generic, does anyone have any problems, come and speak to us, which is always there and is appreciated, if we do have any concerns. But in a situation like this, where there is a kind of a large issue which is obviously affecting the whole student body, and someone mentioned its final years, but unfortunately for the rest of you, youre going to get screwed by it if we get screwed by it. And its something that is going to affect everyone and therefore we needed to have some leadership from the Students Union, I feel, in terms of for industrial action, for you to make a decision on our behalf, there needed to be something that said, Hello everybody, this is about the junior doctor contracts thing, this is where its going to be, if you cant make it send us an email with your questions, whatever. Something a bit more informative, a bit more formal, a bit more motivating, a bit more inspiring from the Students Union. On all the junior doctors and things like that, I have not felt any leadership from the students side. I can go and talk to all junior doctors and even the consultants on the hospital side and they will tell me, yeah, come and meet the doctors, come do this, come do that, do whatever. But theres been no leadership, and I understand that youve been taking a far off view, but I feel that theres a 90% feeling, in your terms, do something, show us some leadership. I think that would stop some of the problem with feeling intimidated and some other people kind of trying to force the issue and things like that. If there had been a message from the Students Union saying, This is what you can do, this is what you should do, this is what you shouldnt do, this is where you can come and discuss it, I dont think you would have had any problems which unfortunately you are.

Steven Gilbert: So for this issue, we are very open to ideas about how we can communicate. So, Ive read all this through, everyones in favor, right, fab, we have an opinion. Where do we go from there? I am absolutely open to any sort of ideas. I can tell you something, and thats, Kings, Barts and RUMs, all theyve done, theyve gone out there and have said we show solidarity with the BMA and junior doctors and that was it. And theres a pretty picture of the Barts president handing out tea to the junior doctors. That is it. And theyve booked some rooms for placard making. Thats what theyve done, but Im very open to what the student body wants us to do. Going forward, as we keep harping on about, nobody in our seats has had this situation and taken this forward to where we do need to blow it up and have a referendum and take a view. Nobodys really done that before. So this is a really good chance for us to review how we do it. If you feel like the leadership hasnt been there, then there are certainly lessons to be learned. We are learning on the way, and it will be something we hand down to our successors in July. And as Kat actually said, we are going to make a policy on how to do all these things as Im pretty sure there should be somewhere in our constitution that says how we go about these things and what is the constitutional way to survey the student body and get their opinions on really large political issues that affect their medical careers. We should be held accountable for these sort of things, as we are the Students Union, but there isnt anything for that so we do need to, because weve done what we do for everything else and its clearly not good enough. So there is plenty of room for needing input.

Sebastian Locke (MBBS5): If you guys decide to go against the contract, which it does seem like you probably will, will the SU be actively against it or will we be just getting an email saying yeah guys were with you. Or will you be making a statement to the press? Will you being talking to newspapers? Will you being going on television? Or will you just be sending us an email about it? Not to be rude.

Steven Gilbert: So, the first thing I do, I talk to my buddies in UH, and pretty much mimic what they did as the first step, which has been, show solidarity and kick up a bit of a stink within the Students Union. Nobodys kind of hit the media yet, apart from the UH MedGroup Chair, who was on some chat show at some point. But nobodys gone out there and made a big stink about it.

Sebastian Locke (MBBS5): Why dont you be the first? Why not try?

Steven Gilbert: Then it would be with a lot of guidance first. But theres no reason to say no. If people want us to, fine, but it would be very well considered and planned. It wont be something we jump on to.

Kat Telford: As I mentioned before, there are laws governing us. We would want to be incredibly careful before we went into the media, to make sure we werent breaching any of those, whatsoever. We want to do this in a very positive light, we dont want to do it in something that may be detrimental to the SU and then for all of our members.

Sebastian Locke (MBBS5): Just within that, I know you are getting guidance from the university on this issues, from Deborah Bowman, from Judith Ibison, surely their guidance may be a bit biased, because they dont want to be seen in a negative light themselves? So maybe the SU should get guidance from the students as well.

Kat Telford: Absolutely. And thats why were trying to balance the advice from Judith and Deborah along with that from NUS, who are very, very politically active. Lets find out how they do it, and do it well, so that we can mirror something like that, if thats what our members want. Because I would definitely not want to, as I said before, go ahead and do all this, eager to please you, in a knee-jerk reaction, and have no process to go about doing it, and then have negative outcomes afterwards. We need to be prepared for this, we need to have a game plan, lets really set ourselves up with a great, cracking procedure from the NUS so that we can facilitate all these things for students, but positively.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): Regardless of the decision reached here today, surely whatever the students think about the whole situation, theyre protected by the normal avenues, and non-discrimination policies, so you are going to just treat them the same as normal, so there isnt any real difference. So the minority are just as protected as normal. So why was it a problem to start with?

Kat Telford: So it was more with regards to accessibility to our services, student engagement is an issue that we have as SGSU. We didnt want to add to that by adding barriers, and it was more about the accessibility of the student support services we have here in the SU, which raised the concern, really, with regards to making a stance.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): But what youve said today is that the services are absolutely still open, arent they, so it doesnt have much impact.

Kat Telford: Yes, of course they are, naturally. Our support services are always, always open. I think its more other factors like stigma, or concepts that maybe individuals feel that may affect their access to the services. There is no question about that.

Christy Moen (MBBS4): So thanks for coming along, and everyones made really good points, but I think we should get on to the debate, as we are losing people. I dont want to come here and it will all go to waste.

Catherine Vaughan (MBBS4): I also think we should move on, as the meeting started late and some of us have more than an hour to travel home. It will all be for nothing if we dont get on with this.

Chair: I understand your points, however we will take the remaining questions as there are several different cohorts represented here and this is their chance to ask questions and to take everyones views in to account.

Dave Ritchie (MBBS4): My question is about further contingency plans. So, if this contract is imposed, have you got a plan in place on how to then support students, say making support services available, or how to get jobs abroad? It is all stuff that will happen, should this be forced upon us, and we dont feel like we can comfortably work in the UK.

Kat Telford: So, no. But it is a concern of ours. Those are similar questions you have just asked, that were raised at the open meeting, back in October with Judith, Johann and the Principal. I know that its something thats certainly on the universitys agenda, but I agree with you, we need to have our separate contingency plan as an SU, to ensure we are supporting all of our members, should the contract go through.

Discussion:

Shash Sivaji (MBBS5): I just wanted to say at the start, that I think the atmosphere in here is turning a little bit towards the Salam Witch Trials, and thats not really helpful for where were going. And as someone whos been here for 5 years, I appreciate that a referendum has never been called in my time at St Georges. An EGM has never been asked to make a political decision since my time at St Georges. I think its a little unfair to perhaps not consider that the Exec is learning just as much as we are about political activism, in that regard. And that some appreciation of that is probably warranted from more corners of the student body. With regards to the contract issue, I think its also worth baring in mind that the elections that were held, the contract issue didnt feature in any of those elections, so you might then argue that it would be undemocratic for our elected representatives to take a stance without consulting us, without polling us formally in a referendum first. They werent elected on the mandate, the reason the BMAs been able to be so vocal is they had a 99% mandate from a formal vote of their members. I think its worth recognizing that we dont have that yet, we can have that very shortly if we vote under clause 15 to have a referendum, but its worth just bearing that in mind, and I think a bit more pragmatism in the room is probably warranted.

James Watson (MBBS4): Hi, Im the president of the new Activism and Protest Society, which you previously mentioned, thank you. I just wanted to clarify what you [Kat] said as well that its clear there hasnt been a system in place for having a consultation, although you talked a lot about the different avenues that are open, I think that a lot of the hostility comes from the fact that nobody really felt that that was a real invitation to say, this is an issue that we need to discuss and we want your opinion on it. I think thats probably when the understanding went in a different direction. But of course youve now gotten to that stage, thats really, really good, and there hasnt been a policy in place to do this before that, and as he [Shash] said its never been done here before, so its just a delayed process in that kind of regard, and we really appreciate what you guys are doing, and that you are so on it in your first few months of being in office. I just wanted to put on the cards, for this discussion, that if we have a referendum, we need to consider, and you guys need to consider, other political issues as well as the Junior Doctor Contracts, so that we dont leave this meeting with it just being about whether or not the union supports the Junior Doctor Contracts. Obviously right now there are many pertinent issues around NHS bursaries and maintenance grants. But also in the future, especially with the current political climate, there are going to be more of these kind of issues which will directly affect students. So we do, as a group and in the referendum, need to consider that as something we need to move forward to do, to have a system in place so that the Union can work out what issues are important to students. Because of course, if the Union is still having to sit around in a small room saying what shall we consult students on?, then the question would be, how does the union know what issues they want to even ask the students about?

Kat Telford: Absolutely. When we first realized there was a problem and that there wasnt a process it made it ever so more important to get one, because theres not just this issue. There is the bursaries, there are other issues that students want to get involved with and be politically active on and we need to be able to facilitate that. And not all of those views and opinions will always be such a unanimous one as this. So we are definitely looking in to that for other issues that will arise.

Chair: A reminder to keep to the topic of the meeting, in the interest of time.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I agree with him [James], but I think that if you really want to consider students more involved, then at every Council, a group or society should be able to bring up a political issue and request for it to be polled; if thats feasible in the Students Union?

Chair: That can already happen.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): As for today, I do think it is important to talk about NHS bursaries and talk about recent increase in fees for nurses, and obviously grants are changing. But I think we should really stick to Junior Doctor Contracts today, thats whats brought us all here. No offense to anyone affected by these. I think as a group, we havent got a mandate to speak for our whole university, it should be put to a poll, not just the issue as a whole, not as I agree with Junior Doctors I agree with Jeremy Hunt but on the separate issues that have resulted from it. In general if we will all vote for that, in general we will all vote the same way, the more opinions we have, we will get more media attention.

Kat Telford: So you would rather it evolved to more of an opinion poll, almost?

Rob Birley (MBBS5): Pretty much, yes. And then we can guide what the University say, so I think we should vote on: a) Strike action, b) Whether the Junior Contract seems fair in our opinions, c) Whether we think the government has a mandate to enforce a contract upon Junior Doctors, d) Whether we think the government should be allowed to misuse scientific data. I think one issue is very slightly more important, and thats the Junior Doctor Contracts involves a full walkout and I think thats a separate thing to ask people about, because not everyone is going to agree with that.

Alex Browne (MBBS5): What sort of time frame, as a rough guesstimate, are you thinking about? Because obviously the next strike is going to be on the 26th January, and in terms of publicity, Im thinking thats the one where we would be, as a University, most agreed on. Because as was said, the final one, which would be in February, that would be the one where you might get a bit more friction between students, as to whether they agree to it or not. So presumably, if youre going to do publicity things, the 26th January would be the time for doing that.

Steven Gilbert: So we were discussing this, pretty much just before we came downstairs to here. Our original thoughts were, so if a referendum was to be called as voted by you guys, then we would like to get something out and ready to go for tomorrow. So I would cancel everything and work on that, fine by me, gets me out of a few meetings. And then, I personally would be interested in getting something out by midday Monday and ask to do an opinion poll. We even considered doing it by Friday, this Friday, but that is a very quick turnaround. There are pros and cons to either one, but I think Monday is the one we were most comfortable with, giving people a week to get as much representation from the student body as we really can.

Leo Trinik (MBBS4): Given that we have decided to move things forwards. I think you have made some really sensible suggestions. So can we just have a vote now, to have a referendum by Monday and then following that an opinion poll?

(Leo Trinik (MBBS4): I propose to hold a referendum on the issue of the Junior Doctor Contract, as opposed to holding a motion today. Rob Birley - Seconded. Speech for: waved. Speech against: waved.Passed by simple majority.)Chair: We first need to decide whether we are holding a referendum or passing a motion.

James Watson (MBBS4): I think its really good what people are talking about with the media and having a clear idea, exactly what the opinions of the students body are. But I would also want to make sure that if people agree with this, that we dont straight-jacket ourselves, by saying oh The student body generally supports these things and that means therefore, for example, we cant then put out information about the pickets when theres a full walkout for example. I think there is a difference between knowing exactly what the student body thinks on a bell curve, and having the option for the Student Union to be political enough to give people information about supporting the Junior Doctors, whatever they may be doing.

Kat Telford: And that was the argument really, and I do accept Robs argument against it as well, but that was the argument for going and saying are you for, against or abstaining from the SU supporting Junior Doctors with this dispute? as thats a very simple, easy question to ask the students but I can see the arguments for asking them all the other questions as well.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I think its very important, regardless of which way they vote, to provide information, both positive and negative about whats going to happen, how to behave, and what to do, should the voting go a certain way. So if it turns out to be a full walkout and there are picket lines, but the University has voted against the idea of a whole walkout, total emergency services, I still think you guys need to provide information about what is acceptable for students to do and where to protest if they feel they have to. Because its not about how the SU votes, we still need to hear about it, and that will at least mean that you are totally being communicative. And its also the responsibility of the students to read that. If you put information out, and if students dont read it that is at the fault of the student.

Kat Telford: Absolutely. This was part of the precedence for when we came up with the terms and conditions of the Protest and Activism society.

Michael John (MBBS4): As opposed to making one specific question, could we not have a general question and specific questions? More information is how we can say do you feel this way about the general issue?, how do you feel specifically about these things?.

Chair: This isnt a opinion poll, this is a referendum. So this will be the official stance. So if we have opinions, this is not what this is for.

Michael John (MBBS4): Can we not do a combination of both?

Chair: Yes, we can ask as many questions as we would like, but the referendum would be the official stance.

Steven Gilbert: One thing I would like to stress though, whatever questions we ask, the exact wording will be decided in this room. So if you want loads of questions, prepare for a nice little sit down in here and get comfy. So if you want 10 questions, we will decide the exact wording in here and follow exactly what you guys said, and it will be minuted as well.

James Watson (MBBS4): Is that really part of the democratic process or are you just saying that? Why cant we have faith in you to put out set questions that are fairly representative?

Steven Gilbert: Well, weve ended up here, so.

James Watson (MBBS4): A referendum is one thing where you have to have a democratic decision, but if you also have an opinion poll attached to that then it can have a set of fairly general questions.

Kat Telford: I would be happy to develop those questions, both with yourself [James] and Rob and anyone else, if this is what the room wants, for there to be an opinion poll to be released alongside the official referenda, which is just the stance: for, against, abstain.

Chair: So would the referendum be, I agree with the statistics of the poll? What would be the purpose of the poll?

James Watson (MBBS4): I would suggest that the referendum would be I think that the Students Union should have an edge to support the junior doctors in their contract dispute approximately that wording.

Kat Telford: Yep, very clear, for, against, abstain.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): Yes, I dont think thats a bad idea. If you want to make a clear message, a referendum should be for one question. But I think an opinion poll is better because then if youre going to the press, which I think we should do, dependant on the result. For or against, its important information to have. But with the opinion poll, with the statement from the SU you can say we support or dont support the junior doctor contracts, we found that x number of students thought this.

Kat Telford: The referenda, that official wording is much quicker to get out than an opinion that I would want to get the questions really good for you. So we could certainly get a referenda out much more quickly, then we can have an opinion poll. Although if you would like an opinion poll as well, we can certainly bring that out as well, whenever we get that perfect.

Matthew Vincent (MBBS4): You pretty much answered it. Would it be possible to just do a referendum and get it done before the 26th and get that over and done with? And then put the opinion poll out afterwards?

Kat Telford: Yes is would be. If you want a referendum tomorrow, I will cancel everything and we will do a referendum tomorrow, in time for the strike.

Hannah Scott (MBBS5): This is all part of a very unprecedented process, calling a referendum. But what sort of majority do we need to take up the poll? And what sort of majority in that poll do we need to say the Students Union stance is for the junior doctors?

Chair: We need a minimum of 150 students and then its just the majority of those.

Kat Telford: We are given no guidance about proportion of students.

Hannah Scott (MBBS5): Even though that represents complete apathy from the rest of the university?

Chair: Yes. We cant force them to have an opinion.

Kat Telford: That is what we have in our Constitution.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I think if only 150 people vote thats pathetic.

Alex Browne (MBBS5): If we do go ahead with having a referendum now, and then going with an opinion poll to sort of give clearer outlines. Id imagine wed get boundaries better for what that referendum means. Are you also going to include in the referendum, a foresight of what may happen as well? Because its already been in the news that the government is saying we will impose this contract, in which case Id imagine that the SU has some actions that they could be taking. Would that be included in the referendum?

Kat Telford: Again, that would be included in the policy and procedure, which needs to be developed. I agree with you it needs to safeguard for certain circumstances, that we dont know are going to occur or not. So that is definitely our priority, as I said earlier.

Shash Sivaji (MBBS5): Its an interesting point raised, that the constitution specifies the minimum for a referendum is 150, and there are concerns that that may allow say a relatively small fraction to have a sway in the vote, relative to the larger size. Does the meeting have the power to set a higher turnout figure for that referendum?

Chair: Not this meeting, no. We would have to amend the constitution.

Joseph Toms (MBBS4): Just quickly I wanted to ask how we are going to assess what the student body wants the Students Union to do, what role the student body wants the Students Union to take? You know, going further, I know that the poll will show what our feelings are, but I would like to have included in there what part we want the student union to play in it. So press, etc.

Kat Telford: And again thats something thats currently unanswered and we dont know, and its something I will be asking a lot of advice from NUS on, because I dont think we should just do something without a procedure or a process in place. These are all things we want to find out, so that we can do things properly. So it could be replicated again.

Joseph Toms (MBBS4): Surely its just performing the roles, you are elected representatives, therefore if a majority of us want you to go and do something. If we have a poll and the poll comes back and says we would like our Students Union to be more proactive or to lead the student body in a more aggressive way, or something like that, basically I know youve then got to check with all the rules and everything like that, but could that at least get you on the road to doing that?

Kat Telford: Yes of course, thats what the referendum and opinion poll would be for.

Steven Gilbert: The worse thing to do would be to go in blind and make a mighty mess of it.

Christy Moen (MBBS4): I would like to propose a question for the referendum: Do you think the St Georges University of London Students Union should have the same stance as the BMA?

Jake Ranson (MBBS4): I agree with that because it does show that we are in solidarity with the BMA. But if you ask that question you should clarify what the BMAs statement is, as that is open to our interpretation.

Christy Moen (MBBS4): Because obviously the stance of the BMA will change, and we as a Union are supporting it. Thats where Im coming from.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I kind of agree with what he said but I just feel with the wording, you need to say with regards to their current status on the junior doctor contracts. I wouldnt want to link the university with the BMA, in case the BMA folds. Because realistically if the BMA give in I think we should say: St Georges Students Union, through the process of a referendum, agrees with the current stance of the BMA with regards to Junior Doctor Contracts. That means we are not linked to them indefinitely and gives us the option to change our opinion, which might be the case in the future.

Dave Ritchie (MBBS4): From a purely PR point of view, if you say we are supporting, or with, the BMA, based on what has been said in the media this whole week, that junior doctors are just doing whatever the BMA says, if we dont mention the BMA, and just say the junior doctor contract dispute, that means we are making a motion on the issue and not making a motion on any particular organization. Purely from a PR point of view, that looks better in the media, than us simply agreeing with whatever body says this, that, or the other.

Michael John (MBBS4): I agree completely with Dave, but one thing I wanted to add is that it gets a bit complex if you just say we are agreeing with the BMAs current stance, because then are students saying they agree with the BMA junior doctors voting to have full walkouts or are they just agreeing with junior doctors taking industrial action.

Christy Moen (MBBS4): I think that thats important; the students can decide what they take from it.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): Its too vague.

Dave Ritchie (MBBS4): It is an interpretive question.

Michael John (MBBS4): Thats the thing, people with be voting differently depending on that. I think the question needs to be more clear-cut. Exactly what are we voting for? One person may vote for the statement and when the term full walkouts is used in the future they may turn around and say, Hey I didnt at all say that I support full walkouts. I think we either need to say we support the BMA in taking industrial action, or taking industrial action with full walkouts. Just think it needs to be a little clearer.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): I am inclined to agree with Michael and Dave. We need to be careful not to confuse the distinction of the 2 things we are talking about, i.e. the referendum on whether we hitch the university, or rather the unions, wagon to the junior doctors themselves in their plight in the junior doctor contracts, and secondly the opinion poll, on the key issues that we are addressing here, for example, full walkouts, other types of industrial action, or what these 3 were just talking about now. It is important to frame the one question we have for the referendum, outlining, and joining the ranks of the other medical schools, on whether we hitch the union to support just the junior doctors.

Jonathon Frost (MBBS4): The question should be something along the lines of Do you want the union to have political stance? What do you think the unions political stance should be on the Junior Doctor Contract dispute? I agree with the base point that considering the fact that people are thinking that the BMA is brainwashing the entire medical profession, I think its probably best that we say we just support the junior doctor dispute rather than the BMA. Especially, as Rob says, if the BMA does fold, that would be embarrassing. And thirdly, again as Rob said, there should be separate questions about the other difficult ideas.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): These are very devise matters and these should be part of the opinion poll and not part of the referendum, the referendum itself should be do we join the ranks of the other Medical Schools and support the junior doctors, in the junior doctor contract issue? Such as: Should St Georges Students Union fully support the Junior Doctors in the UK Junior Doctor Contract dispute with the Government?

Catherine Vaughan (MBBS4): It would have to be including joining the other medical universities.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): Absolutely.

James Watson (MBBS4): But I just want to make the point that we should bear in mind, that right now the union has got a completely neutral stance. I would be wary that that would straight jacket us and not give very much information at all about junior doctors in all this. A very general question, as in Do you think St Georges Students Union should support junior doctors in their current contract dispute with the government. I personally dont think we should add on in-line with other universities because that has the same problem as saying in line with the BMA, its attaching us on to something we dont have any control of. A very general question would move us massively forward, and I dont think we need anything more at this stage. Apart from in the opinion poll where we can put as much detail as we want. I would say that the BMA is a good idea but it tags on to something we cant control. The question suggested by Naim, I think moves in the direction we need to go.

Shash Sivaji (MBBS5): Regarding the issue about the BMA, again I think we have to bear in mind, I understand, the vast majority of this room are card carrying BMA members, but there is a significant minority in this University who arent. So hitching us to the BMA in that regard, I wouldnt want them to feel uncomfortable in the referendum. The other issue about mentioning, or following, other medical schools, is it does come across as a bit of a leading question. And we want the referendum to have maximum impact with regards to PR. If we have a neutral question, everyone here knows what the issue is. A neutral question shouldnt, in theory, change the outcome of the referendum and you still get the maximum impact. And then the result of the referendum is unimpeachable in the eyes of everyone outside.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I want us to attach to the BMA. Its been heavily mentioned in the press that weve been brain washed by the BMA. I for one dont feel brain washed. But we are literally showing no solidarity to an organization that has rallied junior doctors together. And the reality of it is, we are going to be pigeon holed no matter what. Theyll say weve followed junior doctors because theyre our seniors, or theyll say were following other Med Schools, because were following other Med Schools if we get negative press for this decision. But its absolutely ridiculous to say Im not following the BMA because papers are saying theyre brainwashing junior doctors.

James Watson (MBBS4): I dont think we should say we agree with the BMA.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): But we should say we agree with their position, because we do!

Chair: No one is suggesting we sever ties, correct me if Im wrong. But what were saying is, have a general question where we are supporting junior doctors and then the opinion poll, and the poll will sway any statements we make, any opinions the SU puts out. The referendum is just purely this is the stance. How far we go with the stance is dependent on the polling. So I dont think anyone is severing ties from the BMA.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): But I think not having them in the question and them officially on the minutes is bad. When we are being accused of being brainwashed is exactly the time when we should be showing solidarity.

James Watson (MBBS4): We are supporting them. Its just that a question of, in that referendum that question does have to be as it is, and not lead us into something. And by saying that we shouldnt have that in the question is in no way saying we shouldnt support the BMA. That question needs to be less complicated. It needs to be a nice and broad question, which allows the Students Union to take a position and move us forward.

Oliver Mercer (MBBS4): Surely its easier to come out against the contract rather than to decide to support the junior doctors, because there are some junior doctors who arent supporting the BMAs stance on the dispute. So its better to come out against the contract, that we are against the contract and we support the junior doctors stance against the contract. But lets not affiliate it with the BMA because of the complete walkout including emergency services. We dont agree with the contract, and we agree that junior doctors should stand up against it, but we are not saying that we definitely support all of their industrial action.

Samuel Wood (MBBS5): I think as long as the Students Union is going to commit to being an active voice for us on this issue, then it is better for us to be more closely represented by a Students Union, rather than affiliate ourselves with something that represents much larger bodies. We can give a much more specific attack on what we want to say through our Students Union, rather than just being another part of the BMA.

Marie Jasim (MBBS5): Another issue with putting the BMA in our referendum is its quite limiting. So if all the 3 strikes fail, and they carry on doing walkouts, the student body can do a walkout as well, we can do a student strike, so to speak. But the BMA cant cover that, obviously, as its about employment more.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I think striking as a student was discussed in the meeting with Johann, and I dont think we are ever going to be able to get a mandate for a potential strike.

Marie Jasim (MBBS5): Because the BMA want to distance themselves from it. Weve got representatives at every medical school, and Im one of them, organizing a full student strike. Were just waiting for the right time. And thats a national thing.

Clara Salice (MBBS4): Shall we have a vote on who wants to include the title of the BMA in the referendum question, and who doesnt? I propose we dont affiliate with the BMA and other medical schools. So more specifically, I agree with Olivers point, I dont think we should say we support junior doctors. We are a medical school, we should support medical students in this decision. So we should just say St Georges Union is against proposed changes to the junior doctor contract.

Kat Telford: It doesnt mention strike action, it allows for it. If you keep it very plain and simple, the referendum question, you then do the opinion poll that asks more into specifics later. We are not, as James said, straight jacketing ourselves with the referendum.

Rob: The BMA have brought everyone together and have been fantastic. I dont think we should rule out standing with them in the question.

(Clara SaIice: I propose that St Georges Students Union stand against the proposed changes to the junior doctor contract and dont use the BMA or any other medical schools in our referendum.Naim Merchant Seconded.Speech for: waved. Speech against (Rob Birley): I just want to reiterate that I think we should stand with the BMA. With the stance, not necessarily the BMA itself, but the stance they have taken. You have to remember they polled the doctors, they had a huge majority, and their stance is pretty much in line with what junior doctors want. They have played a huge part in pulling together the fight for the junior doctors with the contracts. Do you know how annoyed the consultants are, the GPs are, the difference this contract makes. The Junior Doctor Committee have been fantastic. If we dont want to stand with then, then fine I will agree with my Students Union, but I do think we should not rule out standing with them in the referendum. Accept: 46 Reject: 10Abstain: 9PASSED.)

James Watson (MBBS4): Weve currently got 2 different versions of a proposal for the referendum question. And its just a referendum question going to the university body. We currently have got 2 proposals for how that should be worded, I can read them then we can discuss what weve got. Do you think the St Georges Students Union should support the junior doctors in their contact dispute or Do you think St Georges Students Union should stand against the proposed changes to the Junior Doctors Contract. That is, as I understand it, the 2 proposals.

Leo Trinik (MBBS4): Not proposed, but compelled or imposed changes.

Alex Browne (MBBS5): Can I add or suggest an addition to the phrasing of the question so that it says Within the boundaries of the poll that is going to be attached to the referendum. Because otherwise the poll is just a sort of separate entity.

Kat Telford: It should be [a separate entity], its an opinion poll.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): This may have already been explained, but why arent we combining those 2 questions Do you support junior doctors and Against the contracts, if youre going to go with one, youre going to go with the other realistically. If you go with the contract then youre not going to be supporting the junior doctors. And its a good way to say we do support the junior doctors and we dont like the contracts in one go as a statement.

James Watson (MBBS4): So to reword very slightly with one word Do you think the St Georges Students Union should support the junior doctors against the proposed or imposed changes to their contracts.

Joseph Toms (MBBS4): I think someone mentioned earlier, that the problem with supporting the junior doctors is that they have voted for industrial action, which the student body might not necessarily do. So, correct me if Im wrong, but thats why someone mentioned we should vote to be against the contract rather than be in support of the doctors, which all be it subtle, is probably a good thing to consider. Basically if we havent discussed industrial action and voted on it then it is probably better to be against the junior doctor contract imposition, rather than anything else.

Leo Trinik (MBBS4): But at this stage we need to be in support someone. If its not the BMA its got to be the junior doctors. And I think at this stage, junior doctors have already had one strike, so surely it has to go without saying that we are going to support them in their plight. I realize its a difficult question, but at this stage, supporting the doctors does involve strikes.

Hannah Scott (MBBS5): I think the way its been written so far is emotive, but its wishy washy, like Steven mentioned earlier, these polls have not actually come to any tangible action in particular so that when we poll students on that question do you stand by it, it doesnt really mean very much. And I think the question we put out, the actual topic we are debating is whether the Union should go from apolitical to political. And the question should reflect thats the change thats happening. It should say something like Do you agree that the Students Union should make an official stance against the junior doctor strike.

Shash Sivaji (MBBS5): I wanted to say, following on from that, I have a draft question that Id like to read to the room, just as an example: Do you feel that St Georges Students Union should take a stance regarding the proposed new junior doctor contract, on behalf of its students. For, against or neutral. I feel its a neutral question it will get maximum impact when we do eventually vote.

Matt Vincent (MBBS4): Personally, I just feel that its important that this referendum we have, that we vote on, a referendum that very clearly shows us that the majority of students at St Georges are in favor of whatever the junior doctors are doing. If only so that we can have some backing in our future meetings discussing specific wording or what were going to say to the press.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I agree with changing our status but I do think we need add in that we are also support junior doctors and are against the contract. I think saying a) supporting, b) not supportive, c) neutral, I dont think its going to grab headlines, to be honest. People are going to get sensitive to it, it should be yes, no, change our university status to be supportive and it reads to support junior doctors and not the current contract suggestions.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): I completely agree our statement for the referendum question should read explicitly supporting junior doctors in their plight. It should not include being against the contract, because the contract is going to be an ever changing thing, with the nature of the negotiations that are ongoing. If it turns out that miraculously at the end of the day the contract turns out to be something we mostly agree with, weve got a statement out saying we are against it.

Chair: We can change our statement.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): We can, but then we look like were flip-flopping. I know it sounds petty.

*name unkown* (MBBS4): But if the contracts change and then the junior doctors will say oh, thats good then well change our stance.

Dave Ritchie: We should just say the imposed contacts.

*name unkown* (MBBS4): No we shouldnt.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): This is where we get quite divisive, if we have a very simple question for the referendum, something just along the lines of every other medical schools already done, to support junior doctors. Why is that not good enough? And then if the opinion poll, which is a separate issue, can ask How far does our support go and what role do you think the Union should take in supporting us in that?. Its two separate issues.

Razvan Iorga (MBBS4): Could you tell us what the wording was of the other schools on their stance?

Steven Gilbert: Yes, I just need to look it up on the computer.

*name unknown* (MBBS4): Could we include a clause of the contract, as it was on certain dates, then if even if there were changes, weve got a record of what weve voted against. We can even highlight certain aspects of the contract which we are specifically against.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): If we just say we are for, were in favor, or supporting junior doctors, surely that can weather any possible changes. We can all agree in this room that were with the junior doctors.

Leo Trinik (MBBS4): We have to be more specific.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): No you dont, for a referendum you dont have to be that specific. It has to be something that can weather any change.

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): Were setting out our own stance, so it has to be.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): Im going to suggest something that can weather any changes and say: I agree that St Georges Students Union should change its stance to support the junior doctors in their dispute with the current proposed contract. You put that up, because it means if the contract changes, everything changes. We can put that we support the junior doctors, because we will always support the junior doctors. But realistically, theyre not going to suddenly say we want 50 grand a year. We support the junior doctors against the current contracts, because thats what its all about.

Chair: So have we reached a conclusion?

(Rob Birley: I propose that the question for the referendum is as follows: I believe that St Georges Students Union should change its stance to support Junior Doctors in their dispute with the current proposed contract.Alan Cartwright Seconded.Speech for (Rob Birley): I mean its a really good point that it could change tomorrow, but I dont think it will. Realistically, if it changes for the better then our stance changes, but that of course is going to go along with negotiations in the contract. So if it happens, our stance can always change, we will just support it slightly less. But the reality is well still support it. You cant predict the future so this gives us good lea-way, in or out of the contract, but it also says we are changing our stance from a neutral to a non-neutral position. And those are the 3 clear messages it is important we get across.Speech against (Naim Merchant): Of the 3 points that youve mentioned, I completely agree with 2 of them, I think we should support junior doctors, I think we should move our stance from neutral to a positive and active stance, I dont think we should include words such as imposed contract or things to that effect. I think we should keep it as simple and as stated before. Accept: 52 Reject: 6Abstain: 7PASSED.)

Chair: So that will be our referendum question which will go up at some point tomorrow and stay up for a week.

Paul Askham-Spenser (MBBS4): One word that gets changes in the proposed contract, in the meeting tomorrow, and our vote is invalid. Because it is the current, which means right now, junior doctor contract. It is quite an important thing. Its absolutely vital.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I dont think anyones going to call up St Georges and say your referendum said the current contract, I understand theyve taken a comma out of that contract!. I understand the total pragmatism of it, but we are a Students Union of a small Medical School and I do think that people will get the gist of where we stand.

Joseph Toms (MBBS4): Its also minuted in todays meeting.

Shash Sivaji (MBBS5): I think just coming back on that, its worth baring in mind that when the BMA ballot took place, the contract has changed since, and I dont see anyone proposing, you know. When Jeremy Hunt offered the so called 11% pay rise, the week before the strike, and the strike was called off, I was in the Monckton when it happened, 12 hours before it was due to go ahead. No-one questioned the BMAs right under the ballot, to continue its existing stance despite the contract being changed in negotiations over the last few weeks. So I dont think anyone is going to be that pedantic, in terms of looking at the words proposed and thinking that the student body doesnt recognize the small changes that may happen during the process.

Chair: Ok, the opinion poll. We can either sit here and discuss every question that is going to be on the poll now, or we can just highlight important issues that you want to be in it and then leave it in the hands of the Students Union to formulate questions.

Naim Merchant (MBBS4): Can I motion that I nominate Vice President Kat Telford to come up with a bunch of questions to feedback to the student body by an agreed upon date?

Chair: Are we not working to the time limit of the strike next Tuesday?

Kat Telford: The referendum is happening soon, that will go out tomorrow. The opinion poll can happen a little bit later.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I think its really important we get the opinion poll out at the same time as the referendum. I think it has a massive impact if you bring them out together, and it means we address a certain number of issues, not just one. But the main issue is when the junior doctors going on strike, so we need to clarity on it. I think if we bring it out later then no one will care.

Cassie McDonald (MBBS4): I just wanted to say I feel like the main issue the Students Union have at the moment is because it was after their elections. It hasnt happened before, and all they really need is a majority vote. Then its up to them to figure out what information they dont have, that they want to go on the poll.

Chair: It is up to everyone in this room to decide if they are happy for the Students Union to come up with the questions and release it in the future.

Alex Browne (MBBS5): As far as I see it, the main thing for the poll is simply to establish what the boundaries are on the extent to which we agree, because we are, after all, our own. The Students Union is for us, its not for whatever the junior doctors think. So, as long as we establish the boundaries of our own opinions, so that they can represent that, as well as what our stance will be if anything goes ary in the future, as a potential add on. Thats what I see the only reason for this opinion poll is.

Marie Jasim (MBBS5): The problem with an opinion poll is that all our opinions are going to change quite a lot over the next few months as there is more stress and more walkouts happening, and so I dont know how useful it will be in the beginning. So now, I am for student strikes, but Im sure some of you arent, but that might change in August.

Chair: So are we of the view of having more opinion polls in the future?

Marie Jasim (MBBS5): But they wont get filled in. People wont do them.

Kate Knox (MBBS4): I was just going to propose that maybe you [the Students Union] came up with a series of questions that can go in the opinion poll and then in a week or twos time, well have enough time to think about them. And then you can send them out in an email and we can have a separate feedback session. Because I think people are going to start to leave now.

Kat Telford: We can always have a task group for the questions for the opinion poll.

(Shash Sivaji: I propose the motion that the opinion poll regarding this issue is entrusted to the Students Union and is conducted after the close of the referendum.Razvan Iorga Seconded.Speech for (Naim Merchant): I think logistically thats going to be the case anyway. I completely agree. Speech against (Joseph Toms): I just want to say that, entrusting the opinion poll to the Students Union, I agree with completely, but I would like to have some input from us here. The thing Ive been stipulating all along is that I think the student body needs to be addressed as to the role of the Student Union, and the role the heads of the Student Union take in this. And also, Im just hearing reiterated time and time again, shall we follow the BMA? Shall we follow other medical schools? Shall we do this? Shall we do that? Dont follow anyone, as has been mentioned, weve got Pops and Andrew who have set up and are leading student representation in the media, weve got Rhys and weve got other junior doctors who are standing up and are on the news and are on TV. St Georges Students Union should be saying, We are the forefront of the student body, we are the forefront of students who are about to become junior doctors, we are leading the way, we are a teaching hospital, thats what we should be doing in my opinion and I would the student body to be questioned on that. Accept: 66 Reject: 2Abstain: 7PASSED.)Shash Sivaji (MBBS5): I just wanted to propose a motion that the opinion poll is held after the close of the referendum, because I dont want to risk, in my mind, splitting turnout. We have one question that everyone is voting on, it would be much easier in my mind to get a high turnout on that question. If we have the poll out at the same time theres a risk that people will be like Oh, well Ive got to do 2 different things, and theres 4 or 5 questions in the poll, and they might say I cant be bothered.

Kat Telford: We will be getting it [the referendum] out tomorrow midday. Normally in our general elections we keep voting open for a week to get maximum turn out, put if we really push promotion of it, get as many people to vote on it as possible, then yes it is possible to get the results out at 12pm on Monday. We will close it on Sunday to give the maximum amount of time to vote.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): I hate to give you guys more work, but theres just some thoughts about the strikes happening next Tuesday. Apparently there is another proposed march in London going on. There is a student page for the strike as a whole, but it costs quite a lot of money to do this sort of stuff, so if youve got a few quid, do give it here. If theres going to be a strike on Tuesday can you guys prepare to essentially rally the students that can get off placement that day and be an active and supportive SU in this situation, if we have voted to be for the junior doctors. Are you guys prepared to send out an email after the referendum results, if we are in favor of it, saying, there is going to be a march, if you can get off placement, if youve been allowed by your doctors, go on that march. Or to have one you there, to have a representative there.

Racheal Hughes (MBBS4): We [protest and activism society] will be doing that.

Kat Telford: Pending the results of the referendum, the Students Union may actively support the Protest and Activism Society and give all the information required. I think thats what youre asking for.

James Watson (MBBS4): We [protest and activism society] will be support you, rather than you supporting us, as you have much more power.

Rob Birley (MBBS5): It will be very interesting to know what the other medical schools, outside of London, are doing as well, and I know its more work for you guys, but if theres a massive amount of co-operation between medical schools then that will be very useful and that is far more powerful that just London.

Kat Telford: We do have communications with other universities and I am happy to give you details of that.

Chair: Anyone who has specific questions they would like in the poll or specific issues or anything like that, they should email Kat, or go and have a meeting with Kat.

Ruth Varney: Also, your year reps are meeting at 6pm tomorrow at Senate so if you have anything you want to know, tell your year reps.

Chair: Thank you. Meeting adjourned.

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