From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/20/2003 10:16:58 PM | Message DetailI can't belive the last one went so far. What a trip!I suggest newcomers go over the 500 posts previously made until one of us reposts the key points here.

As of now the debate is at a standstill and our efforts are focused mainly on writing a FAQ detailing this entire discussion in an unbiased view.

Disregarding the 'cranky' posters who have jumped in late in the last topic, things have gone quite smoothly. I hop it remains that way.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/20/2003 10:21:40 PM | Message DetailOh, and Geasha; did you successfully save the last topic in an easy to read format? If you did I'd like you to ZIP it together and email it to me.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/21/2003 4:14:26 AM | Message DetailIf you all can go on and on saying "Rinoa is Ultimecia" then I can give my reasons is to why she's not.

We never said that. TrickyAZNN said that, and he is the only one. YOU are the one coming in here shouting it can't be blah blah providing no good arguments at all.

"She may have been a sorceress, but she's still human."

If this is a quote from the game, could you kindly tell us who says it, where and when in the game.If you are pulling it out of your ass(or taking it from some other idiot who refuses to even consider the possibility) then don't even bother.

Those are my opinions and my theories and I have a right to say them if no one likes it that's too dang bad!

Ok, good for you, you gave us your biased, flawed opinion. Now leave.

Sure he's an ass at points,

Only when I must be.

Sure that in summer you wouldn't stay home writing!

Nay, as you probably could have guessed, I'm not staying at home all the time. I'm

leaving for France(that's where you live, right?) on Wednesday.

I can't believe this topic is still open. Ultimecia is not Rinoa.

Thank you for your argument and opinion, mathreq, your logic is flawless. Oh wait! You don't have one. Silly me.

Oh, and Geasha; did you successfully save the last topic in an easy to read format? If you did I'd like you to ZIP it together and email it to me.

I would like it too please.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Rikku Almighty | Posted: 7/21/2003 4:28:03 AM | Message DetailRinoa and Ultemecia are NOT the same! when you beat the game, you SEE Ultemecia pass on her powers to Edea. This is at the part where Squall tells Edea about SeeD and Garden, thus creating a time loop or something. earlier in the game, Rinoa gains sorceress powers from Edea. im pretty sure it was something like that. look for mathfreq. he can elaborate.---"What's with the Xenosaga bashing? I thought Xenosaga was an awesome movie." ~VeryGnawtyFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/21/2003 4:34:18 AM | Message DetailWe know this:

Ultimecia gives her powers to Edea, who gives them to Rinoa who lives on and becomes Ultimeciawho goes back to Edea again.

And for anyone who still doesn't know: I am 100% neutral in this case, I am simply arguing ALL points

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 7/21/2003 7:23:23 AM | Message DetailHave been mulling over the sorceress' immortality thing and I just want to clarify some things.

An extended lifespan or slowed aging seem possible but the only example we are really given is Edea, and it has been argued back and forth that it was due to her being a sorceress. But then again, Edea was a sorceress since she was a child and continued to age normally. Going by this logic, even IF Riona were Ultimecia, wouldn't she look significantly aged having lived for generations?---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/21/2003 8:10:15 AM | Message DetailYes, probably. I adress this in the Sorceres Lifespan part I am writing.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Hyne | Posted: 7/21/2003 11:53:00 AM | Message DetailTo Sir Bahamut: Laguna says, "She may have been a sorceress,but she was still human" He's talking about adel(when you meet him in esthar, ask him why hes here)From: Bluejay451 | Posted: 7/21/2003 12:59:34 PM | Message DetailForgive me if I'm wrong, but does the game ever say how far into the future Ultimecia lived? Assuming not, it would be entirely possible for Rinoa to be Ultimecia without looking too aged.

---Trogdor the BurninatorFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/21/2003 1:04:22 PM | Message DetailLaguna says, "She may have been a sorceress,but she was still human" He's talking about adel(when you meet him in esthar, ask him why hes here)

Thank you, Hyne. This is extremely interesting.You will be credited in my section of the FAQ.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but does the game ever say how far into the future Ultimecia lived?

The game only states "many generations". A generation can be anything from 18 to 30 years, and "many" is a relative term.So as you said, it is possible.

---"Don't be hasty"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: mathfreq | Posted: 7/21/2003 2:46:32 PM | Message DetailRinoa and Ultimecia are two distinct people.

*leaves*---mathfreqSelf proclaimed defender of the downtrodden and marker of flamers.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/21/2003 2:48:40 PM | Message Detail*leaves*

Good.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 7/21/2003 6:49:58 PM | Message DetailEdea describes Ultimecia as a sorceress from the far future. Again this is a relative term, But I would think that it would be more than 36-60 years (the minimum of 'many generations')---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: triKy AzNNN | Posted: 7/21/2003 8:51:39 PM | Message Detail'Far past' or 'far future' obviously means a very long time. No one would say World War II was from the 'far past'. ---"Ze..no..ga..i..s" - Cloud From: Silver Eyes | Posted: 7/21/2003 9:22:20 PM | Message Detailthat probably has more to do with the fact that most people would use the more correct term "distant past"...---You are my pride...~Silver & Soulless~ ]|[Fujin's Eternal Fanboy]|[From: Ancient Tales | Posted: 7/21/2003 9:38:19 PM | Message DetailI believe the theroy myself :D as it make Ultimeci a more interesting villian. So far I hadn't seen enough evident to support either case, as all evident are guesses---True Immortality come not from the preservation of you physical body, but from the preservation of you legacyFrom: Hyne | Posted: 7/22/2003 10:04:19 AM | Message Detaili dont think rinoa is ultimecia, the makers would have put in definete evidence, like about laguna and squallP.S. whats the address of aarins site?From: Hyne | Posted: 7/22/2003 10:06:30 AM | Message Detailthings that go BUMP!!!!!! in the night---"Now! Now is the time to chose, die and be free of pain, or live and fight you sorrows!"- Auron FFXFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/22/2003 11:21:31 AM | Message Detailthe makers would have put in definete evidence, like about laguna and squall

They don't, they just give more obvious signs.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 7/22/2003 11:29:02 AM | Message DetailI don't remember if this was brought up in the previous topic, but the tutorial gives a little squib of information regarding Time Compression that could explain Ultimecia's motivation for achieving it. I'll have to get the direct sentence later, but it says something along the lines of all sorceress powers being embodied into one sorceress

when time is compressed. In short, Ultimecia wanted to achieve time compression to achieve ultimate power. I'll post the exact quote later.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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rom: Hyne | Posted: 7/22/2003 11:50:41 AM | Message DetailYeah, I meant more obvious signs, BTW Bahamut where would I find your FAQ once its finished?---"Now! Now is the time to chose, die and be free of pain, or live and fight you sorrows!"- Auron FFXFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/22/2003 1:25:22 PM | Message Detailrapa: IT says something about how many Sorceresses powers may eventually give one Sorceress the power of Time Compression. Meaning only once in a while is a Sorceress given that power.

BTW Bahamut where would I find your FAQ once its finished?

It's not my FAQ it's a joint FAQ between Geasha, me, Sideswipe, OnonKnight and perhaps a few others. It will be posted on Gamefaqs here when it is ready.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/22/2003 1:40:43 PM | Message DetailHello everyone!

Sorry,i'm a little busy right now,i may not be able to post for the next few days.

I compressed the topic.Size compressed:170 ko

You gotta give me you emails and i'll send it to you.

BTW Sir Bahamut,i wish you nice holidays in France!Where are you going? Mediterranean sea?---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/22/2003 2:11:45 PM | Message DetailDriving down to Geneve(through Denmark and Germany), then driving in west for a while before returning.

Anyway, this is my last post here for three weeks, so goodbye, keep the topic going

without me.

Bye!

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 7/22/2003 2:59:28 PM | Message DetailFrom FF8 PC US version Tutorial:

Tutorial-->Information-->Information-->Term-->Time Compression

'A complete mystery. Various states of "present" are believed to become compressed. Sorceress' power from many generations may cross over to give 1 sorceress great strength. No one knows what effect this may have on regular human beings.'

So there is an alternate motive for Ultimecia's plan not involving Squall or Rinoa: strength and power.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/22/2003 10:02:28 PM | Message DetailWWWHHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

Three weeks without Bahamut? This topic will have gone to hell by then! Holy (*^%!!

Anywho . . .

Strength and power are something the creators of Final Fantasy are trying to get away from in the recent games.

Sephy wanted to take the Planet back for the Ancients.

Ulty . . . that is in debate here.

Garland wanted souls for Terra (I can't remember that well but I believe that was it), while Kuja wanted to kill everyone.

Sin and Yu Yevon . . . I haven't actaully beaten X yet, but I'm close.

As you can see, I really doubt strength and power are her goal. In early FF's sure, but one they his IV I think the plots became a lot more complex than that.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: rapap | Posted: 7/22/2003 10:28:52 PM | Message DetailAll you said in your post SideswipeZulu is 'I don't think so'. Care to provide any in-game evidence to support your opinion?

In actuality, Sephiroth in FF7 wanted to absorb all the energy of the Planet to become a 'god'. How is that NOT about strength and power? Haven't played beyond FF8 so I can't comment on those.

I'll point out that the quote I used came directly from the tutorial. It gives a much more obvious hint to Ultimecia's motives.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/23/2003 4:25:31 AM | Message DetailWell the account of his is still here...not him though :)---This is OnionKid2002 holding a friend's account.I did in no way, shape, or form hack, hijack, or otherwise steal this account.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/23/2003 10:29:30 AM | Message Detail'A complete mystery. Various states of "present" are believed to become compressed. Sorceress' power from many generations may cross over to give 1 sorceress great strength. No one knows what effect this may have on regular human beings.'

You know what I see in there? "Complete mystery, believed, may, no one knows." It seems like this quote can't be considered wholly the truth as it sounds like a theory. Aside from the game's little "theory," what other evidence do you have to say she wants power? Did she say that herself?

Sephiroth is quoted over and over again saying he wanted to take the Planet back. Absorbing the power of the Planet and becoming a God were a part of this. Through his becoming a God he would have taken back the Planet.

And who is that in Bahamut's account?

---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Hyne | Posted: 7/23/2003 10:32:24 AM | Message Detail"Hwo is that in Bahamut's account" Its OnionNight, read the bold at the bottom of the post.---"Now! Now is the time to chose, die and be free of pain, or live and fight you sorrows!"- Auron FFXJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: SDalmonte | Posted: 7/23/2003 11:10:39 AM | Message DetailHey, is this a closed party or can anyone join in?

P.S. whats the address of aarins site?

http://www.geocities.com/aarinfantasy4/aaringuide.html---"What is this, some sort of dog training?" - Seifer Almasy,FF8. Also, if you can't say SDalmonte, call me Sam.From: rapap | Posted: 7/23/2003 1:37:58 PM | Message DetailSideswipeZulu:

I said that it is a much more obvious hint. Can you find something better to support your opinion than claiming to know what the creators of the game are trying to do with the villians (because you don't) or by trying show a trend in other games' villians (because the trend doesn't follow your argument)

I'd rather not discuss FF7 on the FF8 board, But since you insist...

*FF7 Spoilers ahead*....

.

.

.

.

.Sephiroth only wanted to take the Planet during the Kalm flashback when he thought he was an Ancient and had the birthright to do so. His actions later in the game show that what he is doind is not for the Ancients, but for himself. How can he be taking back the Planet for the Ancients if he is not one himself and he KILLS the last remaining one?---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: CTHKSI | Posted: 7/23/2003 2:17:23 PM | Message DetailWell, I wasn't here before, so I have no idea what was discussed previously. And I'm too lazy to go through all 500 posts. :P So I'll just talk about some random things.

Griever

Pro (for Ulty = Rin)- Ulty wouldn't know about Griever if she wasn't Rin, because Squall told her about it, and the game doesn't indicate that Squall got the name from somewhere else. (Someone elaborate here. I don't really know about it).

Con (I suppose you can figure this out)- Griever is actually a real GF and Squall just named his ring after it.

Ellone's Power

Pro- Ellone can only send someone to the past that she knows. As in know personally.

So if Ulty uses the Ellone machine thing (I forget the name), she needs to know the people she's going into. So that would mean that Ulty is Rinoa. And another point to support the idea that the machine has the same limitations as Ellone herself: Ellone can't go too far back into the past (After Laguna and Ruby Dragon scene, where Squall talks to Ellone), and neither can the machine (the whole purpose of the "Searching for Ellone thing").

Con- You don't need to actually meet the person. You could just "know of". And the machine doesn't neccessarily have to be limited to the range of Ellone's powers. Ellone could only go back 17-20ish years at most. "Many generations", if taken at the sense of Baby Boomers (US, 1945ish, right after WWII), Generation X (No clue. Just know that there isn't a lot of people), and our generation, one generation would be approximately 20 years. And if "many" is taken on its lowest terms (say two), Ulty would have to travel back 40 years or so, and that would mean that the machine isn't limited to Ellone's own powers.

-------Whew. That's enough for now. ^_^ ---"Thank Heaven! The crisis, the danger, is past...And the fever called 'living' is conquered at last!" -Poe From: SDalmonte | Posted: 7/23/2003 4:15:11 PM | Message Detail"Con (I suppose you can figure this out)- Griever is actually a real GF and Squall just named his ring after it."

This is really a translation error. In the Japanese version, Ultimecia said something like "I will summon the strongest monster in your mind" or something like that.---"What is this, some sort of dog training?" - Seifer Almasy,FF8. Also, if you can't say SDalmonte, call me Sam.From: Requiem | Posted: 7/23/2003 5:57:53 PM | Message DetailHeh... Ulti, in a sense, used "draw" against Squall, eh? Reminds me of Ghostbusters I, when evil mage pulled "Stay Puff Marshmallo Man" from Ray's head.

By the way, isn't Ultimecia the final sorceress in the world? I could be wrong, but I got the feeling that SeeD had massacred every other sorceress in the world. Of course, sorceress has to pass on her powers when she dies. Obviously, all the powers ended up in a single sorceress, if no other sorceress existed in the future.

From: OnionKid2002 | Posted: 7/23/2003 7:47:59 PM | Message DetailWell these are some interesting points you people make, and since it's only a game, I can see how it is possible. This is a great discussion...I wonder who thought it up.

And I'm the one holding SirB's account. Huzzah! >_>---A mind is a terrible thing to waste. A waste is a terrible thing to mind.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/24/2003 9:56:59 AM | Message DetailSDalmonte, we debated the translation error in the other topic. General consensus is

that it is NOT a translation error.

One of the more supported thoeries (that is used as evidence) is that Ultimecia DREW Griever from Squall. In the game you come across enemies you can DRAW GF's from, and they never know they're there. The opposite can be true of Squall.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/24/2003 9:59:17 AM | Message DetailSorry for the double.

I accidentally worded my other post wrong. That was all just opinion that I thought showed villains are no longer so one-dimensional.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/25/2003 1:42:57 PM | Message DetailIs everyone dead?---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Hyne | Posted: 7/25/2003 1:51:01 PM | Message DetailYes, I'm dead.But frankly this topic has been talked about as much as its gonna.In the end I think Ultimecis is Rinoa, but anyone can decide what they like.

It was nice while it lasted but this topic like me is dead.Peace and love Sideswipe!---"Now! Now is the time to chose, die and be free of pain, or live and fight you sorrows!"- Auron FFXJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/25/2003 3:06:18 PM | Message DetailI love you Hyne!---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Hyne | Posted: 7/25/2003 3:19:09 PM | Message DetailHmm, my spider sense tells me your using some form of sarcasm...---"Now! Now is the time to chose, die and be free of pain, or live and fight you sorrows!"- Auron FFXFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/25/2003 4:12:24 PM | Message Detail

I thought this topic was dead to you.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Hyne | Posted: 7/25/2003 4:55:01 PM | Message DetailYeah, well i'ts got a sudden revival I guess.When someone actually talks about the subject it'll be back to it's former glory(Sir Bahamut coming back will help too)---"Now! Now is the time to chose, die and be free of pain, or live and fight you sorrows!"- Auron FFXFrom: XxDarkClownsxX | Posted: 7/25/2003 5:57:53 PM | Message DetailUltimecia is Rinoa in the future. cause why would some sorceress from the future just take over edea's body?---{~eXCs~}From: rapap | Posted: 7/25/2003 7:47:58 PM | Message DetailRegarding the Elone Junction Machine.

We really don't know the abilities of the machine, but we also don't know the limitations of the machine aside from the fact that it can only send someone back so many years. It is very possible that it is not limited to sending someone back to someone they know.

Consider this too. Ellone could only send someone's consiousness to someone she knew, not the person being sent back.

I think it's very significant that Ultimecia only attempted to possess sorceresses. Never anyone that Rinoa knew that had direct contact with Ellone (Cid for example).

In short, Ultimecia possessing Edea and Rinoa does little to prove that Rinoa=Ultimecia.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 7/25/2003 8:11:32 PM | Message DetailJust a thought here, but if indeed Rinoa is Ultimecia, then why would she bother trying time compression if she knows it won't work? I mean, she would be well aware that Ultimecia was defeated and her plans fail horribly.

That said, Rinoa would have to become insane(or perhaps the GF's forgetting side effect affected her) to do what she knows will fail. The game never mentions further use of the GFs afterwards, and since they agreed to continue with the GFs just to defeat Ultimecia, it's very unlikely Rinoa junctioned anymore.

So all in all, it boils down to a time loop and Rinoa's sanity. My reservation comes from the fact Rinoa was heavily set against fighting(she did change her mind though).

A very interesting topic to say the least.

---Life is bad enough, dont make things harder then they already are. From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/25/2003 9:36:05 PM | Message DetailWe keep going back to the Griever GF theory that he gradually erased her memory, but she still kept her emotions.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 7/25/2003 9:48:11 PM | Message DetailThat may happen, but it doesn't ERASE there memories, only makes them forget unless they get reminded. Once Irvine started talking about the past, they all started to remember.

Besides, it seems to me that if Ultimecia did draw Griever from Squall during the last battle, then she wouldn't get the GF until then.

However, the creators seemed to have a thing with making all the involved characters closely related in some way. So it is a possiblity.

It seems a bit of a stretch to me, but then again, there's no evidence saying one way or the other enough to be sure.

Everything I've read in this topic are just theories extending off of what was said.

If anyone is truely dead set on yes or no, you need to be more open minded. There are many valid arguements to both sides. I personally lean to no, but yes would be a very interesting addition to the story.---Life is bad enough, dont make things harder then they already are. From: TodPunk | Posted: 7/26/2003 11:47:50 AM | Message DetailUltimecia is Rinoa in the future. cause why would some sorceress from the future just take over edea's body?

Honestly, why do some people talk? Geez.

Anyway, now to get off my high horse here...

There, much better. Now, I love what Hyne said about people believing what they want, because that's pretty much what it comes down to anyway, right? I mean, there's no evidence given so far that's definite either way. All of it is taken in perspective and could easily be construed as something else. Example of this phenomenon: Suppose I say, "Griever was taken from Squalls mind" and I use that to support a theory like, what if griever was born of Squall's mind and Ulty just got the GF in the future, or what if Squall became Griever when he died? After all the soundtrack title "Maybe I'm a Lion" is squall's theme, and only played during that battle.

I'll be the first to admit that was quite a leap from anything that could be "proven" from that statement, but it's a good example of what often times happens in this kind

of thread.

Given that, I should say that I'm not for the whole Rinoa=Ultimecia deal. Just too far-fetched for me. Anyway, the points for or against are all trying to prove theories, which doesn't work where not enough evidence is given in the first place. So it's just theories on both sides as to their "proof."

I do think it's an interesting topic, but you have to assume several things (all of which have been discussed, so I'm not going to list them all) and none of those things on the list are stated as such. I.E. Nowhere is it stated that a sorceress is immortal. It doesn't say they aren't, either, though, it's just more easily assumed because most people die. In the end, it's all assumption.

There are a few facts that strongly support either side, but none prove either way, so why care? It's not like it was the whole point of the story, and even if it was, shouldn't you be taking what you feel is the point, not what someone else theorizes about it?Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: The Flying V | Posted: 7/26/2003 1:50:29 PM | Message Detailoh, and for the one question way back on Page two of this topic, I think Laguna (or maybe Dr. Odine), when you meet him in Esther, says something to the effect that way they say "many generations" it's so many generations that humans are gone. I'm not really sure, but I'm about to go to Edea's house with Rinoa, so I should get the exact quote up soon.---Skies of Arcadia- The Official Video Game of Arcadia UniversityFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/26/2003 7:07:44 PM | Message DetailHe doesn't say anything about humanity being gone.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: The Flying V | Posted: 7/27/2003 4:46:59 PM | Message Detailsorry, now that I went and saw it in game, I had misread it, it was just the time compression, sorry---Skies of Arcadia- The Official Video Game of Arcadia UniversityFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/27/2003 4:52:03 PM | Message DetailAll of us have done that at one point in this topic's course.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Geasha | Posted: 7/27/2003 5:32:02 PM | Message DetailSorry everyone,I have other things on my mind right now,so I can't visit the topic often.

And Sir Bahamut isn't here either.summer break time!I'll come back though.But since the last topic pretty much examined everything,it's difficult to keep it alive.Unless someone has new informations...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/27/2003 7:57:22 PM | Message DetailWell, there is comething I'd like to discuss.

End of Disc 1, The possessed Edea strikes down Squall. There are two things about this I see:

1) She displays no pleasure at killing a SeeD, and Ultimecia has complete control over Edea's body. Example: when she becomes trapped in the clock tower Edea/Ulty becomes pissed. If Edea had any control, she would have been happy that Ultimecia could no longer use her if she died.

2) Why didn't she kill Squall? If she truly believed Squall knew SeeD's purpose at that time, then any of the others would have as well. She didn't need Squall, just one of them. She could have killed him and nothing lost.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 7/27/2003 10:45:43 PM | Message Detail1) She displays no pleasure at killing a SeeD

If I'm right, no where in the game, nor in what Ultimecia says if she <u>enjoyed</u> killing SeeDs. Just because they annoyed her to no end doesn't mean she took pleasure in it.

Ultimecia has complete control over Edea's body. Example: when she becomes trapped in the clock tower Edea/Ulty becomes pissed. If Edea had any control, she would have been happy that Ultimecia could no longer use her if she died.

I don't know what you meant, but you've contradicted your statements.

Ultimecia has complete control over Edea's body.

If Edea had any control, she would have been happy that Ultimecia could no longer use her if she died.

Edea had no control over what she did. She was under Ultimecia's control up to her defeat later.

As for your second statement, killing Squall would have ruined the story line. In any case, she did try to kill Rinoa and Irvine along with Squall, she just failed is all.

It is a valid thought, but since it would have been end of Squall (and the game), it's

worth much consideration for this thread.

---Life is bad enough, dont make things harder then they already are. From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/28/2003 11:01:06 AM | Message DetailI have no idea what I was on when I typed that. It made sense at the time.

It does tie in, though. What reason would Ultimecia have for sparing his life? Whatever that is is a part of the story.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 7/29/2003 7:40:38 PM | Message DetailI got the impression she was trying to kill him. I don't quite get how impaling him on a rather large shard of ice is sparing him...---Life is bad enough, dont make things harder then they already are. From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/29/2003 10:16:55 PM | Message DetailThink of it.

Ultimecia conjured and and threw a piece of ice into Squall's chest. She could have easily finished him off, or even got his heart. Why didn't she?---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 7/29/2003 10:33:07 PM | Message DetailIt may have been since Squall was the "leader" in the assassination attempt. Therefore, he must have been told the secret of SeeD.

Even though Seifer said he'd get it from one of the others, it may be that they were more sure of Squall knowing then the others. In that sense, finishing him off would be stupid, especially if he was the only one to know.

Anyway, this all relies on the fact that Rinoa junctions GF(s) for a long period of time. Otherwise, she would never try to hurt, kill, or remove her friends from existence.

From reading other posts and such, Griever is a highly unlikely possibility.#1 Griever is destroyed at the end of the game.#2 Griever is drawn from Squall at the start of the battle.#3 They all know what happens when you use GFs#4 They all decided that they'd continue to use them to defeat ultimecia, but it was hinted that would be it.

---Life is bad enough, don't make things harder then they already are. From: steelkvlr | Posted: 7/29/2003 10:41:17 PM | Message DetailSquall is a team leader, so he is more likely to know any secrets of Garden which are of importance.

Quote from game : "The sorceress I'm searching for is not you Rinoa."---"Hey, there's a box!" - Zell, D-District PrisonFrom: majes black | Posted: 7/30/2003 2:34:18 AM | Message DetailAt the end of the 1st disk, Ultimecia didn't kill squall cuz she was probably trying to get the "secret" of SeeD. She probably kept the others alive to torture or if Squall didn't squeal (lol). Look at her palace. Bodies beyond bodies of SeeD's. She hated SeeD's and i bet she tortured them too then threw them out like trash.

As for her time machine, she probably couldnt use the machine to go back any further than the time she gave her powers to Edea. When the final fight was over she went to that time. She didnt possess Edea at this time cuz Squall was there and she was weak and wanted to die(gets explained later one). So she chose a later time. The possible point of her going back would have been to stop SeeD in action and cause a paradox (explained later also). Thus not going back far enough to actually stop SeeD from being created. So she needed the info from the one that so luckily fell into her lap, Squall.

Let us not forget that she also wants to perform the elusive time compression. So she would need to be in a time period where Ellone was of age and mastered her powers. She probably didn't want to go back any further to risk altering something that would result in Ellones death. Creating a time paradox. If she stopped SeeD, Ellone may have never been put on the ship and may have somehow been involved in a war and died. How can Ultimecia exist in a time period if Ellone died and the machine was never made? It would destroy the universe including Ultimecia. So the time she chose was one where she could attain SeeD information and use Ellone's powers.

As for the possibility of Ultimecia being Rinoa, i say it is possible. When Ultimecia was giving her powers to Edea squall wanted to kill her. But he didn't. More accurately, couldn't. As he was going to, Edea stopped him and said "She has lost, a Sorceress cannot die with her powers" or sumtin like that. Once she gave her powers she died. What Edea meant was that a Sorceress couldnt die with her powers. Look at Adel, they COULD NOT kill her, so they froze her. If its true that a sorceress cannot die if she has her powers, then Rinoa could have refused to give them to another and lived forever to try and prevent others from abusing them.

But over time, generations to be exact, she could have changed and lost her memory. Also, is this is true, she would have known about the ultimate GF. Maybe she had it all along. After Squall possibly passed away his GF became hers. Or she just drew it from him at the match cuz she sensed the power. Well that's about all i have to say!From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 7/30/2003 2:49:13 AM | Message DetailThey don't have control over if they give there powers or not. Edea didn't even know she had passed her powers on until Odine found it out.

Edea: It's ok. There's no need to fight. That sorceress is just looking for someone to pass her power on to. In order to die in peace, a sorceress must free of all her powers. I know...for I am one, too. I shall take over that sorceress' powers. I do not want one of the children to become one.(Thanks to the Game Script guide)

To die in peace. Which means to me they can die. Also, Ultimecia appears in a ghost like image, implying she's dead.

Ultimecia: I...can't...disappear yet.(Game Script guide again =P )

That said, she's on the brink of death, but wants to pass the power on before she dies. It seems that dying with the power is very very undesirable

---Life is bad enough, dont make things harder then they already are. From: Jax1298 | Posted: 7/30/2003 3:34:18 AM | Message Detail***SPOILERS***

This is a well explained theory. Ultimecia is Rinoa from the future. The reason is Ultimecia was trying to master the art of time compression, and Rinoa was barely beginning to learn of it. Ultimecia obviously mastered the art of time compression and became many years younger than what would be had time passed- and only she, Rinoa Heartily, could have used Edea as a vessel.

So the time loop starts again, as the powers are passed down upon Rinoa, who once again, is going to become Ultimecia, according to this logic. Makes alot of interesting points. Been a long time since I *rented* FF8. Hehe. From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/30/2003 7:22:53 AM | Message DetailJax, we never said anything about Ultimecia changing her appearance.

You'll need proof of that.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Volume II of Time | Posted: 7/30/2003 8:18:29 AM | Message DetailHello, it is me, Sir B. Found a computer in France:

Just a thought here, but if indeed Rinoa is Ultimecia, then why would she bother trying time compression if she knows it won't work? I mean, she would be well aware that Ultimecia was defeated and her plans fail horribly.

If Rinoa is Ultimecia then this does not matter. Use whatever explanation you like(GF, insanity), if she ends up Ultimecia she will do exactly the same.

but it doesn't ERASE there memories, only makes them forget unless they get reminded

And? When is Ultimecia reminded about being Rinoa? That is correct, never.

There are a few facts that strongly support either side, but none prove either way, so why care? It's not like it was the whole point of the story, and even if it was, shouldn't you be taking what you feel is the point, not what someone else theorizes about it?

Why care? Perhaps because it changes your entire view on the storyline?

And of curse it is your choice, you should fllow your opinion, but it is possible to help someone in doing so.

It may have been since Squall was the "leader" in the assassination attempt. Therefore, he must have been told the secret of SeeD.

Ok, lets say she spared Squall to find the truth about SeeD.Well, he never tells her.However, Ultimecia still knows that SeeD are trying to kill her when you meet her. How? Did she find out when possessing Rinoa? Or if she was Rinoa herself she would know.Or of course SeeD culd have struck first in the future.

Otherwise, she would never try to hurt, kill, or remove her friends from existence.

Do not say never, it is too strong a word. Insanity from the loss of Squall paired with the fact that she knows those friends are going to try and kill her could trigger it.

To die in peace. Which means to me they can die. Also, Ultimecia appears in a ghost like image, implying she's dead.

It means for the last time:

Either a sorceress can not die while she has her powers or she will have a restless death if she does not pass on her powers before death.

Edea not knowing she gave away her powers can be explained by the fact that it was Ultimecia that gave them away.From: Hyne | Posted: 7/30/2003 9:18:01 AM | Message DetailYay! Sir.B's back =)---"The boy was too frightened too turn around. He tried to ignore it, but the crab just stayed behind him, singing"- A Frightened BoyFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/30/2003 10:46:37 AM | Message DetailYou just happened across a computer eh?

I bet you couldn't resist staying away for more than a week.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 7/30/2003 12:56:41 PM | Message DetailEh, sorry. I'm trying to stay away from words that imply finality. Since just about everything is merely what I thought.

Well Sir Bahamut, from what you've said... it's yes or no answer. If she is Rinoa, then this time loop will ensure it happens the exact same way every time.If she is or isn't, the time loop ensures the story to repeat(a wonderful addition to the story line, you can play the game again and again and still follow the story line).

I don't have enough evidence at the moment to say anymore on my ideas. I'll be looking through the Game Script guide in the mean time.

Thanks Sir Bahamut, you've given somethings to think about.I'm at my posting limit... so it may be a day before I can post again.

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From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 7/31/2003 12:20:10 AM | Message DetailJust keeping the topic towards the top... bump.---Life is bad enough, dont make things harder then they already are. From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 8/1/2003 12:07:39 AM | Message DetailOk, here's something. If Rinoa is Ultimecia, then would killing herself affect the time loop? Since time loops would still have variations in it(at least my theory of time loops).Since we don't know what occurs in time loop, people may not make the same decisions as the previous time, thus a possibility of the time loop collapsing.Anyways, it doesn't have to be Rinoa in order for the story line to work. We don't know the limits of the Junction Machine Ellone, thus we don't know if she has to know the people or not.I had thought that the machine's limit was she could only control a sorceress and go a bit farther back in time then Ellone is capable of.If Ellone's power draws on her own energy, then it's possible that her power is capable of much more. I.E. When Ellone sends Squall back in Rinoa, she collapses. Either it's from the fact that she didn't quite know Rinoa enough, or she was weak.

---Life is bad enough, dont make things harder then they already are. From: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/1/2003 1:54:05 AM | Message Detail

A time loop is a certain period of time repeating itself.Although we still do not know for certain how it would work,it shold most likely be so that it would hapen the exact same way every time.

And Ultimecia killing herself in the future would not result in Rinoas Death, one would only suddenly find Edea back to normal.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:11:10 AM | Message DetailI mean Ultimecia killing Rinoa(future self killing past self).Of course, that would just create a new time loop. It would go through where she doesn't die, then it would loop and she would die, and then it'd start again.---Life is bad enough, dont make things harder then they already are. From: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:42:49 AM | Message DetailNo, you see:

If Ultimecia is Rinoa she could never kill any previous self, ever ever ever

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:49:24 AM | Message Detailthis is why Ulty is actually Quistis ^_^ why because Quistis is jealous that Rinoa got her man instead of her, this is also why she hates SeeD because if Squall never became a SeeD he wouldve never met Rinoa. This is also how she knows about Squall's ring and griever because he told her about it and she spends time with her students. This is also the reason you never see Quistis get targeted for anything, Squall main character so everything is his problem. Zell had his home town Search and taken over, Selphie had her Garden destroyed, Rinoa just plain screwed up and Irvine well he wasn't a SeeD so Quistis had nothing against him even though he shot at her which BTW was all peer pressure so she understood. Need more evidence> Just ask me anything about my theory and I'll answer---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:50:44 AM | Message DetailHow did Quistis become a really powerful Sorceress then?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:51:14 AM | Message DetailOh and Quistis got her powers from hyne when she was all little like and since she was the oldest one nobody new about this cause she tried to keep it a secret, need proof? She has blue magic... O.o o.O---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:52:57 AM | Message Detail*rolls eyes*

If someone now posts the Ultimecia=Cheeseburger crap I will go very cross.

Whatever your name is you who brought up Quistis, please leave this topic for ever.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:54:42 AM | Message DetailAnd as time progressed her powers built up within her cause she never released any there for becoming even more powerful, also why else doesn't she open up to anyone other than Squall plus if you noticed She's so cold to Rinoa never helping her out and stuff---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:56:43 AM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:58:16 AM | Message DetailOh, sorry. Ok, then, now you know tha jokes are not taken very lightly here.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 2:59:04 AM | Message DetailThey seemed fine to me for the last 2 years I've been here---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 3:00:17 AM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 3:08:31 AM | Message DetailNow what else can I say, they are about the same height if not noticed they look the same, both know quite a bit about SeeD, what they where looks the same if you throw a few colors around and add some accesories, they are both able to use Shockwave pulsar (coincidense (sp?) I think not). One is fasenated about time compresion the other was a teacher, Ulty knew about Ellones power and if anyone knew about it also it would be Quistis since she grew up with her in the orphanage---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 3:13:24 AM | Message Detail*wear---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 3:28:30 AM | Message DetailAnd for people who say that it's griever who does Shock wave pulsar that is technically true, but it was quistis who taught it how to use it but since Quistis is

more powerful her's is more powerful...

more to come later---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 3:53:56 AM | Message DetailHere's another thing she got fired from being an instructor so that's another reason she hates them, Xu takes all the credit for Quistis' ideas, plus Quistis plays no important role in the game other than screw things up (such as the mansion incident) so her important role would be being Ulty

I'm off to bed now if you question anything or come up with a question for me feel free to ask ^_^---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/1/2003 9:54:37 AM | Message DetailJokes seemed fine to you because for the last years this discussion has been filled with idiocy(I was there, I remember)!

Now please stop the joking and either leave, or post something intelligent.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/1/2003 5:31:26 PM | Message DetailI can't share my opinion on what I think?---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: shroudedg | Posted: 8/2/2003 1:23:12 AM | Message DetailHeres something I'm interested in...

Does anyone have a definite idea on how this Time compression works?? I figure It's where the past,present,and future becomes one..Or it's a place where time doesn't exists...

if you guys did talked about this already.You can just post what page # you guys posted it in..

It's something I've been wondering about since I;ve played this game...

Thanx in advance BTW---I'm good in bed-----I could sleep for daysFrom: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/2/2003 1:46:36 AM | Message Detail

I can't share my opinion on what I think?

Can you read? If so, you may perhaps have read the title to this topic. If you want to discuss Quistis, then make your own topic.

Does anyone have a definite idea on how this Time compression works?? I figure It's where the past,present,and future becomes one..Or it's a place where time doesn't exists...

The game explains it as past, present, and future mixed together. So if you picture every point of time to be dots in gigantic line, time compression would create one massive dot. For perhaps a clearer idea, time travel would be useless under time compression, as you would not move at all.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/2/2003 1:52:12 AM | Message Detailyes I can read ^_^ I thought I'd just spice it up a bit cause this topic is boring, now I'm not telling you to read it just for those who are intrested that's all and well I figure this goes in with your guy's theory so why make my own (true it does say Rinoa and Ulty but still...)---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: Geasha | Posted: 8/2/2003 9:29:24 PM | Message Detail*post out of boredom*Here's a link to the Quistis=Ulti issue

http://www.sooma.net/keela/ramble5.html

Oh,and I'm still working on the FAQ,but I don't have much time to say hi here.See you all later...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: rapap | Posted: 8/2/2003 9:59:17 PM | Message DetailHey shroudedg! I posted a quote from the tutorial on page 3 (10 posts per page viewing). It suggests that when Time is Compressed, all sorceress powers from all generations may crossover into one sorceress, giving them great power.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/2/2003 10:33:07 PM | Message DetailAnd I already added that what the tutorial says has words that make it a MAYBE statment. It isn't neccessarily true, and might be misdirection.

BlkHeart, I agree with Volume. You want to discuss Quist=Ulty, make your own topic. You just wasted over fifteen posts.

And for another time I will reitterate that if Ultimecia kills Rinoa in battle the game ends. The story never involves Rinoa's death, so if she dies in a battle it's just player error.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/2/2003 11:17:22 PM | Message DetailI didn't waste 15 post---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: FrozenCat | Posted: 8/2/2003 11:20:36 PM | Message DetailI didn't read the other posts, so don't flame me if this is disprooved.

Rinoa loves Squall and notices his ring, Griever. She gets a duplicate of it from Squall. We all know from LotR that evil or magic can me inputed into a ring through forging. In time compression, the fight against Ultimecia. She uses Griever. How would she know about the GF Griever, unless she has physical prrof of it? Ultimecia gives her powers to Edea, then to Rinoa. Rinoa might have passed her powers on to the next sorceress. It also explains an aspect of a need for Time Compression, to retrieve Squall. Just my opinion though. Griever could have been the GF Selphie used before but doesn't remember.---Member of the RPG ELITE: Frozen-Flaming #479Official member of Kaepora Gaebora UnFan Club. I hate himFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/2/2003 11:25:48 PM | Message DetailThe one problem with what you just said is that there was never any duplicate.

Zell had meant to copy the ring, but Rinoa held on to it the whole time. When she tried to give it back to Squall, he told her to keep it.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: shroudedg | Posted: 8/3/2003 12:03:42 AM | Message DetailHey shroudedg! I posted a quote from the tutorial on page 3 (10 posts per page viewing). It suggests that when Time is Compressed, all sorceress powers from all generations may crossover into one sorceress, giving them great power.

*reads page 3*

This foreword information could explain why, the dying Ultimecia passed her powers to Edea when Time Compression occurs, hence the term "crossover into one"....

Then again I just got here, and just mumbling to myself...

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From: rapap | Posted: 8/3/2003 12:09:52 AM | Message DetailThank you, SideswipeZulu, for pointing out the obvious, incase my use of the words 'suggest' and 'may' don't imply enough that the quote isn't fact, but rather a maybe. I'd like to see other examples of yours where the tutorial is 'misdirecting'. Or is this particular quote misdirecting because it happens to suggest another motive for Ulimecia's actions?

As for Griever, I believe that it has become general consensus (including Sir Bahamut) that Griever was drawn from Squall's mind rather than summoned from the ring. Aren't you supposed to be working on that FAQ part, SideswipeZulu?---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: shroudedg | Posted: 8/3/2003 12:13:01 AM | Message DetailThere's an FAQ?? Really??...Anyone have a link??---I'm good in bed-----I could sleep for daysFrom: rapap | Posted: 8/3/2003 12:16:23 AM | Message DetailThe FAQ is a work in progress, shroudedg, similar to the N. Crater one for FF7.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/3/2003 1:53:27 PM | Message DetailNo need to be so confrontational rapap.

And yeah, I am working on the Griever section of the FAQ. I need Geasha to send me the entire topic that he (she?) saved. I didn't get all the info.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: rapap | Posted: 8/3/2003 4:40:48 PM | Message DetailWell SideswipeZulu, it just amazes me when you disregard something like the Tutorial for the game as misdirecting just because it hints at something that goes against what you prefer to believe regarding Ultimecia's motives. I'm still awaiting your other examples of how the tutorial is misdirecting the gamer.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/3/2003 7:06:58 PM | Message DetailI said it MIGHT be misleading. The game itself gives you bits and peices of evidence to take which way you will.

Rinoa is still a Sorceress once Time Compression occurs. this could mean:

1) the tutorial's explanation is false

2) the tutorial is true and Rinoa can keep her powers because she and Ultimecia are really one person.

Hmm, wonder why I didn't think of that before. Maybe I was being a little biased earlier. Oh well.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 8/3/2003 8:19:11 PM | Message Detail

Dr. Odine: ...There is only one way to defeat Ultimecia. You must kill her in ze future. There iz nothing we can do unless we go to ze future. There is no way to jump to ze future under normal circumstances... You will keep moving through ze time compression toward ze future...

From what he says, he suggests that time compresses, but yet you'll end up in the future. This is rather confusing, since past, present, and future should have no bearing in time compression.What comes to my mind is that they somehow use time compression to get to the future, but also stop it also. It is said often that only Ultimecia can exist in the time compressed world. Also, the world you arive in seems to be future except for Edea's house. Though, Edea's house does transform into it's future state.There is NO evidence of the "mixing of past, present, and future", save Edea's house.

Also, there must have been some means of allowing the group to go to future together, while no one else goes. For game play purposes, it seems that the Card Queen and the CC group survive(if you beat them that is). They have no influence on the story line, therefore their presence is to be ignored.

Dr. Odine says you'll move through the time compressed world to the future. Now, seeing as you kill all the sorceresses, Rinoa is the only sorceress left in the time compressed world before you exit into the future.

Conclusion... you do NOT fight Ultimecia is the time compressed world, but rather her present. Your party was sent through the time compressed world and then the time compression was paused or something. The lack of proof probably is the resualt that explaining how they'd stop it would have been far too complicated to explain.

---"I said to leave me alone. I never said to forgot me"From: Zoe Nightshade | Posted: 8/3/2003 8:45:42 PM | Message DetailI, myself, love Blkheart's Quistis=Ultmecia theory :)

"Irvine well he wasn't a SeeD so Quistis had nothing against him even though he shot at her which BTW was all peer pressure so she understood."

That is the funniest thing I've read in awhile.

And also, something I've noticed is, Bahamut's attitude has gotten worse and worse as this topic has progressed. In the first topic, he was open to ideas and nice. Now he's

just being an ass to anyone who's not in his circle of friends, it seems...---I love ya, Mya! ;) http://musicfinder.yahoo.com/artist/photos/1802299853/459624From: rapap | Posted: 8/3/2003 9:22:20 PM | Message DetailSideswipeZulu:

When you fight Ultimecia, she talks about time compression as if still hasn't been achieved fully. Rinoa and the other sorceresses can keep their powers because by Ultimecia's own words, Time Compression has not been achieved yet.

Your reasoning doesn't work too well because

1. Claiming the Tutorial is giving false information is a stretch, and should be backed up by other examlpes. You have yet to give those examples.

2. Following your reasoning, since the sorceresses you fight at the begining of disc 4 are able to keep their sorceress powers, it must mean that Rinoa, Ultimecia, and all the soceresses are one and the same.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/3/2003 9:51:42 PM | Message DetailTime Compression never happened. Fine.

Move on.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: supersi | Posted: 8/3/2003 9:54:44 PM | Message DetailIn the end of the game, Squall apparently was unconscious. Now if he had remained like he was, he'd probably be dead leading to an emotionally unhappy ending. Because Rinoa brought him back, it seems you are forced into an emotionally happy ending. If Rinoa were to become Ultimecia, it would emotionally become a sad ending in a ordinary perspective. Now why would they have Rinoa bring back Squall thereby forcing the Happy ending if it would lead to Rinoa turning into Ultimecia? It doesnt seem logical. Maybe they wanted you to revel and rejoice in completing ff8, so they specifically left no evidence of ulti being anyone so you dont overthink about it... just a thought...

http://www.sooma.net/keela/ramble5.html

The topic about quistis=Ulti is very interesting. The fact they look so similar is

intrigueing. They have the same lips and similar colour lipstick, same nose, same coloured eyes and similar eye shape, and her hair is more believable to turn into Ulti's than Rinoa's is. Also in those pictures she gives off a cold vibe just like Ulti...---SuperSiFrom: dainbramaged872 | Posted: 8/3/2003 10:05:15 PM | Message Detailall right... i figured it out! the truth is that...

------------------------get over it! this game came out almost 4 years ago!!!lol jk

well, what i think is that its up to the player to decide. not sure if it was designed with that purpose, but i think its up to the player to decide if rinoa is ultimecia or not. yes, i know theres evidence pointing both ways, BUT there is no stone hard proof saying that rinoa is ulty, or the other way around. its kinda like in ff7. like...

*ff7 spoilers ahead! beware!*

in the ending, did humanity die?who was the true villian, jenova or sephiroth?did cloud love tifa or aeris?those are never truly answered, so its up 2 the player 2 decide.

btw, i don't believe rinoa is ulty.anywho those are my 2 cents. i'm gonna go play some gta vc :)---

-My daddy shoots people!- Ralph WiggumFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/3/2003 10:12:20 PM | Message DetailYeah, it all comes back to what we want to believe, doesn't it?---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: toasty nubs | Posted: 8/3/2003 10:15:28 PM | Message Detail"From: TodPunk | Posted: 7/26/2003 11:47:51 AM | Message Detail

Example of this phenomenon: Suppose I say, "Griever was taken from Squalls mind" and I use that to support a theory like, what if griever was born of Squall's mind and Ulty just got the GF in the future, or what if Squall became Griever when he died? After all the soundtrack title "Maybe I'm a Lion" is squall's theme, and only played during that battle."

is it coinky-dink that his last name could be lionheart, its not, i know that but his last name does resemble it, and the GF was in his heart?

sorry if this was already brought up i just began to follow and it came across my at the end of the first page and i didnt read the following posts but i just wanted to bring it up regardless.

---I'm not bout that drama!Xbox Live Gamertag: toasty nubsFrom: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/3/2003 11:28:59 PM | Message Detailthanks you two guys for supporting my idea ^_^---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: Ozzman62 | Posted: 8/4/2003 12:07:28 AM | Message DetailOK a few things. sorry to above poster but his last name isnt lionheart, its leonhart. (like kingdom hearts, he was "leon" hence "leon"-hart)

second where did the rumor of a sorceress living forever due to her powers. nowhere in the game does it state that. also edea may look young but she is not, she may use her powers to hide her wrinkles (lol).

and ulty went into squalls mind and created what he thought was strongest. squall himself said lions are known for strength and pride. and when rinoa said "like you" squall said something on the lines of "probably not" (maybe thats why his theme is maybe im a lion?).

and about the sorceresses as one, through time compression. the party used time compression to reach the future, but the world has not been compressed. they fought the sorceresses, becouse they were the sorceresses that were before ulty in the future...(most likely). the sorcereses were probably trying to get rinoas power...

oh and finally.....edea specifically said she first, let me repeat, FIRST got her power

she was 5 or 6. then in the ending it shows that ulty from the future giving her powers to edea when edea was clearly much older than 5 or 6. so that means that edeas power wasnt originally ulty's. she had them and in the normall timeline. they were still her original powers. but when the party beat ulty. that was when edea also got ulty's power.---I wanna be a pirate, or a lumberjack.From: Koren | Posted: 8/4/2003 12:19:01 AM | Message DetailI posted this a while back, and i'm not exactly sure whether or not it was answered. (In the first topic, I believe)

It is my understanding that in Time Compression there can only be one incarnation of each person. Which obviously makes sense, otherwise there would be hundreds of Squalls running around, which would be much more useful for beating a Sorceress than a party of three. IF Rinoa, Quistis, or anyone else was going to be Ultimecia, wouldn't that mean that once Time Compression began, they would not appear with the final party at the end of the game? I mean, if time was compressed, it would be impossible for two of the same person to exist right?

However, Squall is different. Squall, after Time Compression is fixed, travels back to the wrong time, and comes into contact with himself. This is not the same thing as above- More than one of the same person can (And must) exist in different time lines so that that person can have a past, present and future.---If the Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement. From: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/4/2003 3:11:51 AM | Message DetailConcerning Time Compression

Firstly, Ultimecia DOES use Time Compressionallowing the party to get to the future. Odine states this and he has no reason to be lying.

DarkRealmPoet, the reason they get to the future is in my opinion anyway, that Ultimecia triggered the first step of Compression from her castle, meaning everyone was brought to that timeline. I know she had to be in the far past to activate it, but seeing she only possesses people in the past it is plausible to assume that you still end up where Ultimecias body is.

I see no other explanation for this, but if anyone else has one, please go ahead.

When you fight Ultimecia, she talks about time compression as if still hasn't been achieved fully.

Exactly, not fully. If she had not just started it, how does the party get to the future?

And also, something I've noticed is, Bahamut's attitude has gotten worse and worse as this topic has progressed. In the first topic, he was open to ideas and nice. Now he's just being an ass to anyone who's not in his circle of friends, it seems...

Well pardon me for trying to stay on topic, and for not liking trolls etc. I do not find

crap about Quistis having any significance with Rinoa and Ultimecia.

Your party was sent through the time compressed world and then the time compression was paused or something. The lack of proof probably is the resualt that explaining how they'd stop it would have been far too complicated to explain.

Or the much more plausible, Time Compression had just begun, and then as yet did not make a threat.

second where did the rumor of a sorceress living forever due to her powers. nowhere in the game does it state that. also edea may look young but she is not, she may use her powers to hide her wrinkles (lol).

The fact that Adel is sealed not killed, and Edeas line in the end of the game are two things.

and ulty went into squalls mind and created what he thought was strongest. squall himself said lions are known for strength and pride. and when rinoa said "like you" squall said something on the lines of "probably not" (maybe thats why his theme is maybe im a lion?).

Griever IS a GF. She also says she will DRAW the strongest thing from his mind. Quite an easy conclusion, no?

Koren: That is a good point. Now, the effectsof time Compression has not been fuly explained anywhere in the game, so this may not happen. Of course we can use the thing of how the Time Compression the party travelled through, was only the very beginning, thus did not draw all people together.

Another explanation is that tey al got stuck in the sealed off towns(although this is rather unlikely).

Of course, this entire point is made obsolete once full Compression is achieved, as it is most likely tha humans would not be able to live.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/4/2003 4:18:58 AM | Message DetailJust to go into detail on Korens point:

It is my understanding that in Time Compression there can only be one incarnation of each person. Which obviously makes sense, otherwise there would be hundreds of Squalls running around,

This is logical, but how is this one Squall chosen?If it is random, then the fact that ALL party members are chosen as they are in the game is so ridiculously improbable that it is practically impossible.

If it is not random, but instead it is the Sqaull that exists at the exact time where Time

Compression is activated, that gets everything, then this is impossible, because seeing as Squall travelled into the future he was never in the timeline where Ultimecia activates Time Compression.

What does this tell us? That the Time Compression that the party travels through is the very first bit, and thus does not bind EVERYTHING together. Meaning Rinoa could still stand next to Ultimecia in the future.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: rapap | Posted: 8/4/2003 7:22:04 AM | Message DetailDoes anyone have the script for Dr. Odine's plan because from what I remember is that they were supposed to let Ultimecia trigger Time Compression after being sent to the past when Adel was a child. Once triggered, Ellone sends Ultimecia back to her time. Is this to delay full Time Compression? The party then uses the partial Time Compression to travel to Ultimecia's present.

Here's a thought, why would Ellone need to send Ultimecia back to her present? Since a person is rendered unconsious when sent to another time by Ellone, keeping her in the past would make her much easier to kill for the party (maybe that's why huh? Hehe). Possible answer, allowing Ultimecia to remain in Adel's childhood past would allow her to achieve full Time Compression much faster. Sending her back just after triggering Time Compression delays the process and allows for a window of opportunity to use the influence of Time Compression to travel to Ultimecia's time and kill her. The hope being that once the sorceress that triggered Time Compression is killed, the process of Time Compression will stop as well.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/4/2003 8:30:57 AM | Message DetailRapap, I'm impressed.

That was very logically thought out.

*Applause*---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/4/2003 9:09:38 AM | Message DetailRapap: That fits in quite nicely with what I wrote. Good job.

---"Everything I say is a lie"

From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/4/2003 2:18:25 PM | Message DetailI don't want to piss you of or any thing Bahamut (probably a little late for that) but technically it is on topic, I'm arguing the point that Quistis is more like Ulty oppose to Rinoa.---It's alright to let your emotions turn to tearsFrom: supersi | Posted: 8/4/2003 7:33:49 PM | Message Detaili second that...---SuperSiFrom: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 8/4/2003 8:05:11 PM | Message DetailNice job rapap. You said what I meant, though much clearer.

Here is the following script in Esthar(Part 1):Dr. Odine: Iz it my turn?

Laguna: Yeah. Make it short and easy to understand.

Dr. Odine: I will talk however I vant! Egh, Sorceress Edea told me everything. Sorceress Ultimecia comes from ze future to possess ze sorceress of present day. Meaning she leaves her body in ze future and sends only her consciousness here. Does zat sound familiar to you?

Squall: It's like when Ellone sent our consciousness back to the past.

Dr. Odine: You're a smart one! My first guess was zat someone in ze future with an ability like Ellone was sending ze sorceress back here to our time. But no! Zat is not ze answer. So how does ze sorceress come back to this time...? You vant to hear how?

Squall: Yes.

Dr. Odine: Eghhhhhh! I kept this a secret to surprise you... It iz because of me, Odine! I researched Ellone's power long ago. I made out a pattern from ze current running through Ellone's brain. Once ze pattern was determined, it was easy to mechanize. It may only be a toy right now, but in ze time of Ultimecia, it iz an impressive working machine! Which means there iz a machine which imitates Ellone's power. It iz I who made ze first model of zat machine. I named ze machine 'Junction Machine Ellone'! It iz a vonderful thing to know that my invention is used in ze future!

Squall: Junction Machine Ellone.

Laguna: That's about it.

Squall: So Sorceress Ultimecia came to know about Ellone from that machine.

Laguna: And Elle became Ultimecia's target. You can't blame Odine. It's useless.

---"I said to leave me alone. I never said to forgot me"From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 8/4/2003 8:06:26 PM | Message DetailDr. Odine: You vant to go outside!? You vant to fisticuffs!? Ok, we continue ze story! Let's see... There is only one way to defeat Ultimecia. You must kill her in ze future. There iz nothing we can do unless we go to ze future. There is no way to jump to ze future under normal circumstances. But there iz still a way! It iz because Sorceress Ultimecia plans to compress time. Compressing time with magic... Vat good will it do for ze sorceress to compress time? There may be many reasons, but it doesn't matter. Let's just figure out vat Ultimecia iz up to. In order for Ultimecia to exist in this time, she must take over ze body of a sorceress from ze present. But ze machine must have a limit. Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve time compression. Only Ellone can take her back further into ze past. Zat iz why she iz desperately seeking her. We must take advantage of Ellone's power. There are 2 sorceresses in our time. Sorceress Rinoa and Sorceress Adel. Of ze two, Adel has not awaken yet. Once regeneration is completed, neither Laguna not I will be safe. Sorceress Adel is probably in ze process of awakening inside of Lunatic Pandora. Ultimecia will want to possess Adel, if Adel wakes up. Zat vill be a horrible event. Adel iz a horrible sorceress. If Adel's consciousness wins over Ultimecia, Adel will first destroy this era. So we must use Sorceress Rinoa to inherit Ultimecia's powers. Zat's all for ze mission briefing. First, go to Lunatic Pandora. Ellone's probably being held captive inside, so rescue her first. Then kill Sorceress Adel before ze awakening process is completed. Now, we're left with Rinoa as ze only sorceress of this era. Then wait for Ultimecia to possess Rinoa. When Ultimecia arrives, it's Ellone's turn. Ellone will send Rinoa back to ze past with Ultimecia. Ellone will have to send Rinoa and Ultimecia inside another sorceress she knows in the past. Edea or Adel... Zat's up to Ellone. Once Ultimecia iz in ze past, she'll use ze time compression magic. We will see some influence here. I don't know vat kind of influence, but once Ellone feels it, she'll cut Rinoa and Ultimecia off from ze past. Rinoa will come back to this world. Ultimecia also goes back to her own world. Vat would be left is ze time compressed world. Past, present future will all get mixed together. You will keep moving through ze time compression toward ze future. Once you're out of ze time compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world. It's all up to you after zat.(Once again, thanks to OKong's Game Script guide)---"I said to leave me alone. I never said to forgot me"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/4/2003 8:50:56 PM | Message DetailFirst off, I started this topic so you should be more worried to piss me off.

Second, for the second time if you want to argue Quistis=Ultimecia then go make

your own damned topic. Bahamut put it perfectly the first time, this is for Rinoa=Ultimecia only. I don't care what you think if it doesn't apply to this topic.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/4/2003 9:07:24 PM | Message Detailbut it does have to do with topic ^_^---It takes a big man to cry, but it takes an even bigger man laugh at himFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/4/2003 9:45:35 PM | Message DetailThis topic does not involve Quistis, read the damned title.

Get out.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/4/2003 10:14:26 PM | Message Detaillook I really don't want to piss you guys off, but it does relate to this topic, just read my previous post---It takes a big man to cry, but it takes an even bigger man to laugh at himJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: DaveSev | Posted: 8/4/2003 10:18:48 PM | Message DetailI highly doubt you will be able to get another FAQ posted on GameFAQs, as this is a rather old game, and there is already a bazillion FAQs on it, meaning the chances of your's being accepted = very little.

---I wanted to get the Civic because I thought I could put add-ons that could make it go really fast, like in Fast and the Furious - Smelly ElfFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/4/2003 10:42:26 PM | Message DetailDave, no one cares to think about that. We're donig it anyway.

No more discussion on Quistis. She is not a focus of this topic, drop it.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/4/2003 10:45:23 PM | Message DetailCan't you just give it a chance? Does it not convince you?---It takes a big man to cry, but it takes an even bigger man to laugh at himFrom: ariescelestial | Posted: 8/4/2003 10:46:39 PM | Message DetailAbout the idea that there can be only one incarnation of a person in Time

Compression (this is from pg. 12)...Volume II of Time gives two possibilities for how this could be and dismisses them both. Which makes sense, as the six party members all being at the right age by random chance is ridiculous, and the second possibility is impossible. However, if there was a third possibility for how the incarnations were chosen...

Laguna: There's only one way to make yourself exist in a world like that! As friends, don't forget one another! As friends, believe in one another! Believe in your friends' existence! And they'll also believe in yours.

If they had to remember each other to remain in Time Compression, it explains why there's only that one incarnation. A younger Squall wouldn't know about that, and an older Squall, who's already beaten Ultimecia, wouldn't think of it as important or necessary. So it could still be possible that there can be only one incarnation in Time Compression.

(Note: This assumes that Laguna has a clue what he's talking about. Squall dismisses what he says, so it might not be important.)From: rapap | Posted: 8/4/2003 10:51:19 PM | Message DetailDaveSev:

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'd like to point out that BTB recently had a FAQ accepted for FF7 and it's even older than this game.

Sir Bahamut and SideswipeZulu:

If you honestly believe the posts regarding Quistis=Ultimecia are off topic, by all means, mark the posts and leave it for the moderators to deal with. No need to stress and nitpick *shrug*

Thanks for posting the script by the way, I also find it very interesting that Odine mentions that Ultimecia can only possess other sorceresses... More on that later... Gonna shoot some pool. Whee!---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/4/2003 11:00:08 PM | Message DetailCan't you just give it a chance? How bout this... if you can prove that Rinoa is more like Ulty and that my theory makes no sense I'll stop but if you really feel that strongly about your opinion against mine then mark it, all I'm saying is give it a chance---It takes a big man to cry, but it takes an even bigger man to laugh at himFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/4/2003 11:37:13 PM | Message DetailI'm going to start following rapap's advice. This is the last warning.

You post any more on Quistis then I'll mark you. It's off topic, make your own if its so important.---

Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/5/2003 12:44:04 AM | Message DetailLaguna: There's only one way to make yourself exist in a world like that! As friends, don't forget one another! As friends, believe in one another! Believe in your friends' existence! And they'll also believe in yours.

Ah, of course. Thank you, this means that even if Time Compressions has started properly, the party can still exist.

BLKHeart: Fine. Quistis is never made a sorceress in the game. There are no quotes suggesting she becomes one afterwards, and no quotes suggesting she became one earlier.Brining up Blue Magic is ridiculous, because that means that anyone capable of using magic could become Ultimecia. Well guess what, being able to use magic does not make you a Sorceress.

Now I dare you to come with ONE quote, ONE line or ONE event that even slightly leans on Quistis being a Sorceress.If you cannot, then leave this topic. This topic is not for discussing Quistis and Ultimecia. If you had fund a character that could actually ut up a plausible defense for becoming Ultimecia then go ahead, write your own theory, but do not bring this idiotic little Quistis story in here and say it is more likely.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Volume II of Time | Posted: 8/5/2003 1:11:22 AM | Message DetailBut, while BlackHeart here is struggling needlessly to find a quote(or perhaps if this was all a joke s/he is not) then I am leaving again.

I shall not be on a computer again until next Sunday. Then I am back home and can finally finish off my bit in the FAQ.

So, see you Sunday!

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 8/5/2003 1:13:32 AM | Message Detailman your good... well lets see one quote, one line, or one event hmmmmmm... this is pretty tough, well it's kinda of like an event, Quistis has shockwave pulsar and so does Griever (which IMO is part of Ulty) well I'll have to think of something so for now I leave you guys be, damn your good ^_^ but for the other two who support my idea well if you guys can come up with something thn by all means...---It takes a big man to cry, but it takes an even bigger man to laugh at himJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: ariescelestial | Posted: 8/5/2003 3:30:39 PM | Message DetailBLKheart, there might be a problem. Earlier in the topic there's a few posts that say in the game Ultimecia *drew* Griever from Squall. If this is true, Griever is not part of Ultimecia and it doesn't matter what the GF uses.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/6/2003 7:06:51 PM | Message Detailbump skidew . . .---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Zoe Nightshade | Posted: 8/6/2003 10:41:26 PM | Message DetailI'm gonna throw in my 2 cents here, even though no one will really care:

There are plenty of ways Rinoa could be Ulty, but I doubt the writers intended for it it be this way, I believe all the coincidences are, well...coincidences. I believe if this was true, there would be more obvious hints scattered throughout the game. I doubt even once the writers said "Let's subtly hint that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in the future!" It was never in the cards. That's all I have to say...And I still love Blkheart's idea, I wish you guys could just get over it, as both theories, are, no offense, kind of ridiculous...In my opinion.---I love ya, Mya! ;) http://musicfinder.yahoo.com/artist/photos/1802299853/459624From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/6/2003 10:47:47 PM | Message DetailIf you were here since the beginning you wouldn't think so.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: kdavey | Posted: 8/7/2003 12:23:01 AM | Message DetailRemember Rinoa could have just passed her powers along to some one else. She could have given them to Ultimica or some one that would later THEN IN THE FUTURE give them to Ultimcia. I don't think Rinoa would go badass.From: Hyne | Posted: 8/7/2003 6:43:28 AM | Message DetailAnd that's exactly how I like my rhinoceros---We called it 'Sin'From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/7/2003 11:46:02 AM | Message DetailI thought you left man.

o_O---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Hyne | Posted: 8/7/2003 1:25:48 PM | Message DetailI was away for about 4 days on holiday, if thats what you, mean. If you mean I said I left, Sir.B's back so I'm back to watch.---

We called it 'Sin'From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/7/2003 1:31:40 PM | Message DetailBahamut never left, permenantly I mean. He's also on vacation, you read that, right?---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Hyne | Posted: 8/7/2003 1:35:47 PM | Message DetailYeah, but he was away for a time (during which this topic was boring) then he came back as Volume II of Time. Right?---We called it 'Sin'Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Kelk | Posted: 8/9/2003 1:16:58 PM | Message Detailphew... page 11, better bump it up! Anywho, I've just completed the game again and seen Rinoa's face flash on to Ultimecia's. That says it all dosn't it? There are so many 'coincedences' between the two, it's unbelievable too think there not one and the same.

Hyne here BTW, this topic just seemed to have been forgotten.---siggyFrom: Kelk | Posted: 8/10/2003 7:10:00 AM | Message DetailI just noticed that Ultimecia's final form looks really similar too Adel, the colour muscles, and dress are really similar.---"The high court of Yevon is now in session". I love it when he says that : ) From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 8/10/2003 9:15:17 AM | Message DetailOh God! I thought this topic had died! And since no one ever e-mailed me, I figured it was all over with! I have a lot of reading to do. I'm really sorry if my absence hurt the FAQ.

---Obviously, it's called fiction for a reason - because it's real.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/10/2003 12:36:30 PM | Message DetailRight, I am back.

Now BLKheart: I thought the idea was Quistis=Ultimecia, not Quistis=Griever. Oh well, hopefully we can carry on.

Onion: Glad to have you back. And do not worry, take your time, we have plenty.

---"Don't be hasty"

From: Kelk | Posted: 8/10/2003 12:43:05 PM | Message DetailSir Bahamut back = better topic = equals better board = happy board = happy me, i.e: Sir B. back = happy me! :D---"The high court of Yevon is now in session". I love it when he says that : ) From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/10/2003 12:48:14 PM | Message DetailThank you, Kelk/Hyne! Always glad to make people happy.

And improve topics of course!

---"Don't be hasty"From: Kelk | Posted: 8/10/2003 12:57:44 PM | Message Detail'tis the truth ;)---"The high court of Yevon is now in session". I love it when he says that : ) From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/10/2003 2:12:03 PM | Message DetailYo Bahamut.

How was vacation? We haven't really gotten anywhere in the topic, and the FAQ has yet to be compiled.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/10/2003 2:27:25 PM | Message DetailHoliday was VERY hot. At least for someone living in Norway!Besides the heat it was fine. Read A LOT. Lord of the Rings twice for one!

Oh well, after I have unwinded I shall start up on my part of the FAQ again.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Kelk | Posted: 8/10/2003 2:59:51 PM | Message DetailLord of the Rings twice! Wow, didn't you have enough books?---"The high court of Yevon is now in session". I love it when he says that : ) Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/10/2003 5:02:05 PM | Message DetailApparently not. I always read a lot on holidays and seeing this was such a long one, I read A LOT. I'd reckon about 4000 pages maybe. It was a long journey back home you see...

---"Don't be hasty"

From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/13/2003 7:58:13 AM | Message Detailba-dump---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS.From: Daredevil3181 | Posted: 8/13/2003 1:37:18 PM | Message Detail"Did someone say time paradoxes?" asked Crono. "Here's something that might help," as he fished around in his pocket and pulled out a small object pulsating with a soft blue light.

"An egg?!" scoffed Squall.

"Just think of it as pure potential..." replied Crono. "Well, either that or breakfast. Who wants omelettes?!"

Sorry for this post, just couldn't help throwing a little humor into the debate.---"UH OH" - Sealab 2021From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/13/2003 1:38:04 PM | Message DetailNot bad. :)---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS.From: Dark Dragon Lancun | Posted: 8/13/2003 2:55:48 PM | Message DetailPlease, no one critisize me for this speculation, but about the sorceress aging thing... maybe they're immortal, but not invincible. what I'm getting at here is that they don't die of age, but can be killed. that could explain about if Rinoa was indeed Ultimecia, that she didn't age any farther from when she was in her prime. once again, this is only my idea, so post your views on it, but please don't be offensive.---www.freewebs.com/duragonFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/13/2003 3:21:16 PM | Message DetailYeah, some of us came to that conclusion, and others managed to logically smack it.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS.From: Dark Dragon Lancun | Posted: 8/14/2003 1:39:16 PM | Message DetailI just thought I'd bump this, seeing as how the last post was almost a day ago...---www.freewebs.com/duragonFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/17/2003 1:23:04 PM | Message DetailIts dying.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Master Materia | Posted: 8/17/2003 2:13:04 PM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/17/2003 4:04:46 PM | Message DetailSo it would seem.

Is anyone else still working on the FAQ? I'm trying to get finished as soon as

possible.

---"Don't be hasty"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/18/2003 7:44:12 AM | Message DetailI got Griever's section around here somewhere.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/19/2003 9:14:23 AM | Message DetailCould really use that ENTIRE last topic. I thought Geasha had it ready for us.

Geasha!!!!!!!!!! Hear me!!!!---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/20/2003 10:07:54 AM | Message DetailI'm tempted to make this into a Social topic.

Might as well since everyone else has disappeared.

Where's that damned Gaesha?---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: gamemaster1689 | Posted: 8/20/2003 3:12:12 PM | Message DetailWhy does everyone think that Rinoa is Ultimicia? All your reasons for Rinoa could easily be applied to someone else...

For all you know, Edea could be Ultimicia! She was Matron, and she obviously would know Rinoa enough by now. Also, Squall could have found Griever when he was a child, and kept it because he thought it was cool. Edea planned to have her powers removed by Odine, but she could have found to way to get them back later in the future. If they can copy Ellone's power, they could have made a machine to imitate the powers of a sorceress.

Even Quistis might be Ultimicia. People seem to rule her out because she looks different, but we know that a Sorceress can change her looks at will. (Edea did it at Deling City when you go to her as Rinoa. She shorthened her hair and added curls to them) Quistis also knew Squall enough to probably have noticed his ring and asked him once. Just because they didnt show it in a cutscene doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Ya, my attempt to revitalize this topic...

---"Pinnochio was such a dolt trying to become a real boy. He was much better off with a wooden head"-Speaker for the Dead <KoH>From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/20/2003 8:04:28 PM | Message DetailDo you have any actual evidence to back up Edea possibly being Ultimecia?---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/21/2003 7:00:42 AM | Message DetailSideswipe: Evidence is too big a word. Arguments are more like it.

Now let me kill his arguments:

About Edea - You say she stayed a Sorceress, which she obviously must have if she were Ultimecia(saying she got the powers of some random sorceress in the future is idiotic).

Where then did Rinoa get her powers from?This "murder weapon" against your argument is the one on the top of my head. Tell me if you are still not satisfied.

About Quistis - So when and how did Quistis become a Sorceress?And actually, if it didn't happen in a scene in the game(and nothing backs it up at all) then we can't assume it happened.

By the way, I also want Geasha back! I didn't save last topic and I want it bad!

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/21/2003 8:00:42 AM | Message DetailCan always count on Bahamut.

Oh, surprise, surprise!! I found that I HAD actually saved pages 1-7 of the first topic.

Wow . . . but I still would like Geasha's full save.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: gamemaster1689 | Posted: 8/22/2003 11:44:42 AM | Message DetailAbout Edea - You say she stayed a Sorceress, which she obviously must have if she were Ultimecia(saying she got the powers of some random sorceress in the future is idiotic).

It could have been possible for her to have transferred her powers to Rinoa, and Rinoa lost them later in the future. Odine also could have replaced Edea's powers with another machine that imitates a Sorceress' powers. (Kind of like a more advanced version of the Ellone Junction Machine).

Where then did Rinoa get her powers from?

This "murder weapon" against your argument is the one on the top of my head. Tell me if you are still not satisfied.

I'm not satisfied =P. See above...

About Quistis - So when and how did Quistis become a Sorceress?And actually, if it didn't happen in a scene in the game(and nothing backs it up at all) then we can't assume it happened.

Never, my point in bringing up Quistis was to see why you asumed Rinoa and nobody else could have been Ultimicia.

And there are many things we are all assuming that happened that was never shown in the scene of the game. For example, assuming that they all had natural uneventful lives, or that they had lives at all. Don't tell me that they showed Selphie's childhood (after the orphanage) in a cutscene, or that they showed Laguna's childhood. There's a point where we have to assume somethings in the game that were/nt shown in the cutscenes...---"Pinnochio was such a dolt trying to become a real boy. He was much better off with a wooden head"-Speaker for the Dead <KoH>From: Nazomi | Posted: 8/22/2003 11:48:11 AM | Message DetailIts a game guys, chill out!---Power comes to a need, not a desire.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/22/2003 12:09:36 PM | Message DetailAnd there are many things we are all assuming that happened that was never shown in the scene of the game. For example, assuming that they all had natural uneventful lives, or that they had lives at all. Don't tell me that they showed Selphie's childhood (after the orphanage) in a cutscene, or that they showed Laguna's childhood. There's a point where we have to assume somethings in the game that were/nt shown in the cutscenes...

That's stupid. You know very well that there is a huge difference between these things.

The fact that they even had lives at all is a fact, the uneventful lives thing doesn't matter anyway, make up what you want. Edea getting powers in the future isn't backed up by ANYTHING.

It could have been possible for her to have transferred her powers to Rinoa, and Rinoa lost them later in the future. Odine also could have replaced Edea's powers with another machine that imitates a Sorceress' powers. (Kind of like a more advanced version of the Ellone Junction Machine).

All random assumptions not backed up by anything.

The truth is you can't give one argument that isn't completely assumed and not backed up by anything but your own imagination.

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From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 8/25/2003 2:06:06 PM | Message DetailSince there seems to be an idea bashing going on... I'd like to know where did the immortal sorceress idea come from? That isn't backed up by anything either. If anything, it is disproved when a sorceress was described as being still human(I think Laguna said it about Adel, but I may be wrong). It is never even hinted in the game. Also, there is no mention of an age limit on becoming a sorceress either.

I don't want to start an fight or anything, but you guys are being very unfair to ideas that someone else is Ultimecia.

However... I do believe they are right, it is off topic here and belongs in another topic that includes them. For instance, "Who is Ultimecia?".

Ok, now a brief view of people by me. If you think losing Squall is enough for Rinoa to go crazy and want to end the world, then you don't know women at all. Women are the toughest creatures alive. It's very unlikely that Squall's death would be anything more then a source of sadness.

Also, if you won't believe Edea could regain powers, then you have no more right to believe that GFs were ever used again. Their is also the point that Rinoa became the only "KNOWN" sorceress. It's possible that there are other sorceresses out there but were never known to exist.

Finally, there is no evidence! There are only arguments based on what information was directly given and that which is assumed given the restraint of information.---"I said to leave me alone. I never said to forgot me"From: Giromon | Posted: 8/25/2003 9:18:33 PM | Message DetailAll random assumptions not backed up by anything.

The truth is you can't give one argument that isn't completely assumed and not backed up by anything but your own imagination.

What are your "arguements" then? You claim Rinoa is Ulty because she "looks" (which I strongly disagree about) like her and because they know about Griever. Not very convincing...

Also, Quisty could easily become a sorceress, because after your assassination attempt, you find out that when a sorceress loses her power, it gets transfered and absorbed by the nearest female. (Or something to that extent)

---rebel rebel party partyblah blah blahFrom: Rotted one | Posted: 8/26/2003 12:04:34 AM | Message DetailQuestion about the end of Disc 2 (because I haven't played this in a while). The 2nd Edea fight (still possessed) happens in Galbadia Garden, right? And Rinoa is a mandantory party character for that jaunt in Galbadia Garden, right?

If yeah, then what the hell is Ulty (in Edea's body) fighting Rinoa for? If you (the player) lose that fight, Rinoa's dead, right? If Ulty is Rinoa, then wouldn't her *killing* Rinoa in that battle screw everything up?---Link? What's that, some kind of sausage?Is monkeyfingerFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/26/2003 6:49:12 AM | Message DetailSince there seems to be an idea bashing going on... I'd like to know where did the immortal sorceress idea come from? That isn't backed up by anything either. If anything, it is disproved when a sorceress was described as being still human(I think Laguna said it about Adel, but I may be wrong). It is never even hinted in the game.

The first idea came from Edeas line in the end:

"In order to die in peace, a Sorceress must first give away her powers".

This can be interpreted two ways:

*A Sorceress cannotwhile she has her powers.

*If a Sorceress dies while she has her powers she will "have a troubled afterlife".

Events supporting the latter are:

*Adel being sealed not killed(why care if she "sleeps rough" considering all the pain she caused?).

Someone once said they thought they remembered someone in Esthar saying that sealing was their tradition, not killing. This has not been verified. But why is it like this?

*An actual Sorceress(Edea) creates SeeD to KILL Sorceresses. Surely, if someone knows if they are immortal or not, it would be a Sorceress.Now, this proves that a Sorceress can be killed like a human.

Now, this also indirectly "proves" that they don't have to give up their powers to die.Because remember Edea was very concerned that none of the children would become a Sorceress, so she takes ultimecias powers for her own. If she creates SeeD to kill Sorceresses, she would not come along to every assasination and take each Sorceresses power. Do you think she would willingly let some random bloke on the street or one of their SeeDs become a Sorceress?

These are the important ones. Hopefully these will satisfy you.

Also, there is no mention of an age limit on becoming a sorceress either.

What does this have to do with anything?

but you guys are being very unfair to ideas that someone else is Ultimecia.

What?? He was suggesting that Edea got the powers from some random Sorceress in the future we know nothing about! This is not backed up by ANYTHING but hos own imagination.He was also suggesting that a character we never see become a Sorceress is Ultimecia, this is also backed up by nothing but hos own imagination.Not fair? I should have been harsher.

Ok, now a brief view of people by me. If you think losing Squall is enough for Rinoa to go crazy and want to end the world, then you don't know women at all. Women are the toughest creatures alive. It's very unlikely that Squall's death would be anything more then a source of sadness.

Perhaps added to the fact that that very one you loved and watched die along with your fiends will eventually end up trying to kill you....

Also, if you won't believe Edea could regain powers, then you have no more right to believe that GFs were ever used again. Their is also the point that Rinoa became the only "KNOWN" sorceress. It's possible that there are other sorceresses out there but were never known to exist.

The GF argument was only a tiny little thing, never the real argument. It was the insanity caused by the above reasons that were used as the argument. And you have to admit, that proposing that GFs(the key behing the entire SeeD) being used after the game is slightly more reasonable to assume than a character gaining the powers from a random Sorceress.

Finally, there is no evidence! There are only arguments based on what information was directly given and that which is assumed given the restraint of information.

Geez, did you just jump on at the end here? We never said there was evidence. You will find me stating repeatedly(latest time on last page) that there is no evidence either way.It's all a matter of the choice each player takes.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/26/2003 6:49:38 AM | Message DetailWhat are your "arguements" then? You claim Rinoa is Ulty because she "looks" (which I strongly disagree about) like her and because they know about Griever. Not very convincing...

Here we go again. Someone jumps in on the back. Listen, I suggest you read this

entire topic, and then come back and start yelling at me like this.

Also, Quisty could easily become a sorceress, because after your assassination attempt, you find out that when a sorceress loses her power, it gets transfered and absorbed by the nearest female. (Or something to that extent)

I'm not saying she couldn't become one, I'm saying that assuming that she did become one is FAR too great an assumption to use in a valid argument.

If Ulty is Rinoa, then wouldn't her *killing* Rinoa in that battle screw everything up?

Four reasons:

*Ultimecia, having experienced all this before, can still remember her past as Rinoa, and thus knows she won't die.

*Ultimecia is very smart, and realizes that she couldn't possibly kill her pervious self.

*Ultimecias insanity(caused by reasons stated previously) makes her not realize this.

*Gf usage. But for DarkRealms sake, we'll count this "far fetched" assumption as not valid.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/26/2003 6:52:29 AM | Message DetailAlso:

For Laguna calling Sorceresses still human:

This can just be referring to that a Sorceress can be killed like a human(proved earlier).

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/26/2003 6:56:41 AM | Message DetailSorry:

This "*A Sorceress cannotwhile she has her powers." is supposed to:

A Sorceress cannot die while she has her powers.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/26/2003 7:01:41 AM | Message DetailBahamut, I'm once again going to state this for the Character-In-Battle-Deaths.

FOR THE LAST TIME!!!!

The story never has Rinoa die. That's just the PLAYERS FAULT. In the actual story Rinoa lives throughout the game's events, therefore it does not matter if she ever faces off against Ultimecia, she's never supposed to die.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/26/2003 8:40:12 AM | Message DetailThank you for adding that, Sideswipe, but my four points were explaining why Ultimeica would ever want to fight her past self.

But your point is correct. Even if it were not, it doesn't matter, because the laws of time and space make it so that one cannot ever deny your existence(for instance killing your father would be impossible).

---"Don't be hasty"From: Epyo the Great | Posted: 8/26/2003 1:01:26 PM | Message Detail

Here's my take on the discussion of Rinoa=Ultimecia

I too, think that Ultimecia is the future Rinoa. But unlike others, I have a more coherent idea of how and why this change occurred.

Where most say that Rinoa just went insane for some reason and decided to destroy everything, I feel that her motives were more benign, and, that she was perfectly sane at the time.

First let me tell you my version of how time travel would work. I think it's best summed up by Irvine in Trabia that the time travelling would repeat infinitely. He says something like (paraphrasing) "You've all heard this before. That there are infinite possibilities in life. Well I say that's crap. Every decision I've made has been easy and obvious." Using the philisophical concept of Deterministic fate, the characters involved in the time travelling would make the same decisions every time.

To best describe my version of Ultimecia's motives we must first examine what would happen in the FF8 story without the presence of Ultimecia. Basically, NONE of it would have happened. Squall probably would have grown up in the orphanage with his friends, lamenting the loss of Ellone forever. He'd never end up at Garden, because that is just where Cid sent them to prepare to defeat Matron, because Matron was taken over by Ultimecia. Let's assume he would have somehow ended up at Balamb anyway. He might become a SeeD, but he'd never even meet Rinoa. He'd live and die a stoic loner.

Ultimecia influenced Squall's live very strongly. Squall was sent to Balamb, became a SeeD. Edeamecia set up some connection with Deling, which will involve Deling on the train. Rinoa goes to Balamb to get help killing him, and meets Squall in the process. This also perpetuates the story. The characters have to stay together and flee to Galbadia and stuff. Ultimeciea continues to manipulate the story, which ultimately means keeping your party together, forming bonds of friendship and love. Without Ultimeciea, the characters would never form those bonds.

Points of Ultimecia's plot manipulation that ultimately lead to Squall and Rinoa's love story & other bits

-In the prison, Squall is hinted by Seifer the Torturor that SeeD has a 'true purpose.' Seifer's source of this concept: Edeamecia. Without having some idea of a 'true purplse', Squall never would have pursued the truth to find out that he was to destroy the sorceress, and thus never would have led his adventure with his friends to do so.

-Transferance of power to Rinoa. Rinoa gained sorceress powers after Ultimecia controlled her, wheras didn't Edea LOSE powers after being pupeteered? Ultimecia choosing to give Rinoa sorcerosity ensures that Rinoa can become Ultimecea again in the future to reinstigate the entire story.

-Ultimecia can do crazy risky things like sending lizards at Rinoa, because she knows Rinoa won't die from them. After all, Ultimecia was once the one getting attacked by those lizards.

-This is the big one. Rinoamecia and Ellone are within inches of eachother on the Space Station. If Ultimecia's true object was really to just find Ellone, that was her chance. Why didn't she take it? Because she couldn't let time compress yet,not until Squall had fully committed to his love for Rinoa. He had two tasks yet to complete: 1) Risking his life for her 2) Choosing her over the entire world. Those two things are of course, manifest in first jumping into outer space for her, and then risking the entire planet for her by not letting her be sealed off like Adel was.

My original hint that Ulty wasn't just a powerhungry madwoman: Listen to her words in her final form. Instead of the expected "Kurse you, Seeds!" It's more along the lines of a life lesson, some great advice about not wasting the time that is given to you... and without Ultimecia's help, Squall surely would have squandered his time.

---People who don't finish their sentencesJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/26/2003 1:43:05 PM | Message DetailThat is most certainly an interesting and new theory.

So basically, you are saying, that Rinoa realizes that it is Ultimecia who brings her and Squall together, and thus, she becomes her to do exactly this.

A very interesting theory indeed, but don't say us others don't have a coherent look on it, because what you've read in this topic is just bits and pieces of it.

I'll try and argument against it(or for it) tomorrow, but not now. Too tired.

---"Don't be hasty"From: EvilSora | Posted: 8/26/2003 2:23:04 PM | Message DetailIf you people say that Rinoa is Ultimecia can you just answer me a question ?!

Why did Ultimecia fought Squall ? I mean I don't think anyone would kill the person they love and hate him that badly (like Ultimecia hates) ...

---" I dreamt i was a moron " - Squall LeonHeart in Final Fantasy VIIIFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/26/2003 7:05:54 PM | Message DetailGives Epyo the Great a cookie.

That is one really interesting piece.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: rapap | Posted: 8/27/2003 2:00:24 AM | Message DetailAn interesting way to look at it, but I'd like to point out that Rinoa doesn't necessarily have to become Ultimecia in order for destiny to play itself out. This is basically finding another motivation for Rinoa/Ultimecia to take the actions she did another than 'insanity'. Another Sorceress in the future could very well become Ultimecia and events could still pan out the way they do without involving Rinoa who would have significantly aged.

- Small point I addressed earlier: If Sorceresses are immortal, they still age. Edea speaks of how she became a sorceress when she was a child and she still aged. If indeed Rinoa became Ultimecia, following that logic, she would have looked like she aged at least 36 years (using Sir Bahamut's minimum definition of 'many generations)

-Regarding why Ultimecia did not 'take' Ellone while possessing Rinoa's body:Remember that even though, Rinoa/Ultimecia would have Ellone, she still has to make Ellone send her farther into the past. Rinoa had just become a sorceress and was most likely not fully aquainted wither her new powers. It's a very difficult position to make any demands since Ultimecia's closest Galbadian allies were thousands of miles away and she is surrounded by the enemy. Ultimecia is strategically left with one alternitive: release a sorceress with the power to make those demands, supported by the Galbadian army. She used Rinoa as a means to acchieve that goal. In short, taking Ellone while possessing Rinoa would accomplish nothing for Ultimecia and most likey severely set back her plans, if not cause them to fail.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/27/2003 5:50:38 AM | Message DetailWhy did Ultimecia fought Squall ? I mean I don't think anyone would kill the person they love and hate him that badly (like Ultimecia hates) ...

You could have read a few pages back for the answer, but I'll repeat it anyway. There are 4 possible reasons:

1 - Rinoa goes mad. Why? Well, to begin with, the fact that she watched everyone she loves die, starts "turning" her into Ultimecia. Then, when she realizes who she is becoming, it dawns on her that those exact people she watched die, are going to come and kill her.

2 - GF Usage causes her memory to fade. Add the fact that she knows Seeds exist to kill people like her, and anything could happen.

3 - A combination of the two above.

4 - What Epyo the Great said last page.

An interesting way to look at it, but I'd like to point out that Rinoa doesn't necessarily have to become Ultimecia in order for destiny to play itself out.

Naturally. History will play itself the same way no matter who Ultimecia really is. He was just finding a motive that lets it be Rinoa that is Ultimecia.

Rapap: Well then, thank you for saving me the trouble of thinking of that myself :)))Good job explaining Ellone business.

---"Don't be hasty"From: lindblum resident | Posted: 8/29/2003 11:22:58 AM | Message DetailUm,excuse my sudden entrance to the topic,but it is the first time I see a Ultimecia/Rinoa topic,with the amount of flames kept to a minimum amount... and my first time in the board after a long time...

Anyway,seeing how the whole subject is one of my favorites,along with the majority of other "Square mysteries"(No,not a Square fanboy. Just amazed by their talent),I would like to comment on that FAQ,I keep reading about...

Are you sure that it is going to be accepted?

The last time I saw such a FAQ,it was never accepted in the FAQs. I am talking about a wonderful FFX Storyline FAQ,complete with info from Digicube publishments(Ultimania to be more exact) that never got accepted. In such a case,I would really like to get the chance to read it. Seeing the hard work that people seem to put into it,I really would like to see the results...

Um,that for now... I have much to say about the subject,but I need to see what you have discussed so far,in order to stay "updated"...

P.S:Did I read correct? The "North Crater" topics are going to be part of a FAQ?From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/29/2003 11:34:16 AM | Message DetailWell, if it's not posted, we'll just have to keep a topic going with it inside or something.

And I can't finish my part of the FAQ without the last topic! GEASHA WHERE ARE YOU?

---"Don't be hasty"From: lindblum resident | Posted: 8/29/2003 11:41:39 AM | Message Detail>>And I can't finish my part of the FAQ without the last topic.

I want that too. Is there someone,that at least has a part of it?From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/29/2003 11:48:34 AM | Message DetailYes, it was an excellent debate, one that I find myself most fortunate to have played a big role in.

So, anyone have it?

---"Don't be hasty"From: lindblum resident | Posted: 8/30/2003 7:56:41 AM | Message Detail*bump*

I need the first topic!!!!Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: akaripup | Posted: 8/30/2003 8:40:08 AM | Message DetailAaaah! People!! couldn't we have just left the ending to the ending? why must we mutilate rinoa's good image and turn her into a possible ultimecia. The "proof" that you give is too vague and is just theory. None of it is proven. If Square actually wanted to make rinoa to be ultimecia in the future, they would give a whole bunch more clues, so people who played it for the first time would figure it out, not people who have played it 10 times over the last 3 years and analyzed EVERY aspect!! If you want proof, just email Square!! that would be more proof then ANY of the 700 posts on this board. Besides, Rinoa is a good person, she's described to be spirited, nice, and kind. Do you seriously believe that even in the future and her memories lost, she could become Ultimicia? I mean, her memories might be lost, but she can't have gained a totally different personality from good to evil!

P.S. don't kill me. ---Kupo! Blah! Kweh!From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/30/2003 10:45:01 AM | Message Detail1: There is no dead hard proof to support the theory, but then again, there is no dead hard proof the other way around. Although Rinoa not becoming Ultimecia is perhaps more plausible, it is not necessarily the most desirable option.

Every player has to decide for him/herself.

2: Unless we get an actual Square employee in as a Gamefaqs VIP(user who has been confirmed to work for gaming company) to post about it, we can't accept people saying "My uncle works at Square" etc.

We would either need the VIP or a webpage with a picture of the official Square mail.

3: Rinoa not being able to change is only your opinion, don't use it as fact.

---"Don't be hasty"From: akaripup | Posted: 8/30/2003 4:16:11 PM | Message DetailWe don't NEED to believe people saying that they know so and so who works at Square. If you wanted to contact Square, why not just E-MAIL. Why would people lie about something like this anyway? Plus, i think Rinoa not being able to gain a whole new personality good evidence. No one can have a whole 180 degree personality rotation. Happy and happy go lucky turning into a person who wants to DESTROY SeeD? PLUS! Why would Rinoa WANT TO KILL SQUALL if she is ultimicia? If she "remembers" Griever i THINK that she would remember Squall upon seeing him in the fight. ---Kupo! Blah! Kweh!From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 8/30/2003 4:44:50 PM | Message DetailIf you wanted to contact Square, why not just E-MAIL. Why would people lie about something like this anyway?

Listen, to begin with, actually being able to contact Square is a nightmare like this. Secodnly, they would almost certainly not answer, because they WANT these discussions to be going on.Thirdly, people lie about these things to "confirm" their own point on the story, it happens all the time, people lie, get over it.

Plus, i think Rinoa not being able to gain a whole new personality good evidence. No one can have a whole 180 degree personality rotation.

No? Not even people who perhaps get serious brain damage, driving them mad, or perhaps happy jolly people being tortured into dark, silent, evil people. OR in this case, be driven mad by experiencing the one you loved and saw die along with all your other friends, come to kill you, and you know you are going to die in the end.

Why would Rinoa WANT TO KILL SQUALL if she is ultimicia?

For reasons mentioned in this post, AND only last page, and the page before that again too.

By the way, I just thought of a good anti-Insanity argument:

The "insanity" theory has Squall and her friends coming to kill her as one of the final

triggers to madness.BUT, Rinoa says that if it was Squall that killed her, it would be ok. So this shouldn't drive her mad.

Now, perhaps then Rinoa ended up the only Sorceress in the future, realized who she had become, and then did all the things she did, because she knew it was the only good thing to do, so that she and Squall could be together in another timeline. She would know what to do because she was around to see herself do it in the past.

A nice paradox, and a good way to get rid of the insanity theory. Thoughts anyone?

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 8/30/2003 5:49:20 PM | Message DetailAgrees.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: fender strat 363 | Posted: 8/31/2003 9:33:58 PM | Message Detailhmmmmmm interesting topic u guys got here. well anywho, i just wanna say a few things from my thoughts...

Point #1: EDEA DID LOSE HER POWERS

How do i know this? well, i looked thru the game script the other day and looked around for a bit, and i found this...

Zell: S'up Squall!!! So glad you're safe! I hate to tell you this now, but we've got major problems down there. Well, here it goes! Some big thing called Lunatic Pandora came out of nowhere. Matron couldn't achieve what she set out to do because of it. Which is ok. Matron's not a sorceress anymore. Matron gave away her power to someone without realizing it.so yea, i think we can trust zell here, i'm sure edea DID lose her powers.

and theres also somethin else. why didn't they seal away edea? don't u think those people would've come and taken edea and sealed her, just like rinoa? i'm 100% that edea is no longer a sorcress.

Here's another point:

#2: Rinoa is the ONLY REMAINING SORCRESS...or so we think

When everything is all said and done, rinoa is the only KNOWN sorcress in the world. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean she is the only one left. if u go under help in the menu, go and select information and select sorcress. if i remember correctly is says sometihng like "some sorcresses may hide their power in fear". thats clearly understandable. so, for all we know, some random girl in esthar could be a sorcress (most likely not). we don't know. and will probably never know.

and heres another interesting point that came to my mind.

#3 was rinoa a sorcress before and just hid her powers?

i remember readin this other theory about this ulty and rinoa (awhile ago) but it said that rinoa could've been a sorcress before hand. why? because she really doesn't reveal her past. we know very little about what she did when she was younger. i can't remember exactly how the theory went, but it gave a somewhat good explanation of how she could've been a sorcress before. but heres the thing. maybe it was just her personality, she didn't really like to talk about her past. whether she was hiding somethin or not, we don't know. my guess is no, that she isn't hiding anythin, and she just didn't say much about her past and her memories. to quote rikku from ff10 "memories are nice, but thats all they are." "(i think that was it)

but anywho, i was gonna ask about a few things, but i cna't really remember, but i'll post when i remember. Chow!

btw, sirbahamut, u've done a really good job and so far and have rekindled my spirits to start my second game in ff8.and don't flame me or anythin, this is just my perspective of the debate----Soldiers who lose their heads on the battlefield usually lose their heads on the battlefield-From: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 8/31/2003 10:34:14 PM | Message DetailJust to let you know, we all know that Edea lost her powers. However, the point is that did she regain her powers after the game?

Clearly, a sorceress doesn't have to die to give her powers away. Which kind of goes to hinder the sorceress immortality because they don't have complete control of their powers.

Then again, it could be said that Ultimecia gave Edea's power to Rinoa because Edea could no longer serve Ultimecia's purposes. Which would be why Edea doesn't remember losing her powers.

As for Rinoa being a sorceress before hand, I highly doubt it. Once Rinoa gains the sorceress's powers, her limit break "Angel Wing" becomes available. She would have always had it if she was a sorceress. I doubt that sorceress' powers vary in strength, but it could be.

Lastly, I don't believe Rinoa is the last sorceress at the end of the game. Also, you can't even be sure Rinoa got Adel's powers. Unlikely, I know, stupid? Probably.

By guessing, it's probably acceptable to say the nearest female gains the sorceress's powers.

Ah, I've been wondering how to counter the insanity argument. That would dispel it rather nicely for the part about knowing her friends will kill her.

One reason I lean towards Rinoa is that she isn't a SeeD. SeeD failed to help her win

independence in Timber(during the game). Squall could die because of SeeD, along with everyone else. It was because of SeeD that Squall would have to kill her.NOTE: This is an anti-SeeD reasoning. There are good things to SeeD, but one irrational thought leads to another.---"I said to leave me alone. I never said to forgot me"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/3/2003 12:19:37 PM | Message DetailI might have missed something while reading the posts, but I'm pretty sure Edea never regained her power.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/3/2003 12:26:20 PM | Message DetailCorrect.

During the game Edea NEVER regains her powers. Which is why is is rather pointless suggesting it.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/3/2003 12:52:41 PM | Message DetailBy the way, I sent Geasha a mail(using the adress in his profile from a message of his on page 2).

Hope I get a response.

---"Don't be hasty"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Plushie | Posted: 9/3/2003 3:33:19 PM | Message DetailSecodnly, they would almost certainly not answer, because they WANT these discussions to be going on.

Than how come Minerva got a response from Square when she sent in her E-Mail about the Banishing Blade Symbols in FFX?

They even tried to contact Square Japan to get real answers...

Anyway, most of these theories are incredibly stupid unless we know Square's stance on Time Travel and Paradoxes etc.

For instance, we know that the people who made the Terminator movies assume that, if something is changed in past, than time corrects itself to avoid paradoxes. OR time always corrects itself to avoid situations that would cause paradoxes (AKA, neither

John Conner nor Sarah Conner CAN be killed, seeing as that would cause a paradox, and the Universe automatically avoids it)

However, it all depends on Square's viewpoint on Time-Continuity on whether or not this is even POSSIBLE to begin with. Also, don't get me started on the plausibility. Arguing over this is pointless as it is quite impossible to prove without getting one of the writers from Square to come in and say who is wrong and who is right.

Also, the Quistis ---> Ultimecia thing IS pertinent to this topic, as it shows you can provide circumstantial evidence that ANYONE in the game could be Ultimecia. It's basically the same thing as the Ultimecia ----> Cheeseburger idea.---[This Message was deleted due to a GameFAQs moderator's abuse of the second Amendment]From: Macalania woods | Posted: 9/3/2003 9:58:17 PM | Message DetailHey Guys,and of course Sir Bahamut.I've been reading this topic for along time,though unfortunately i didn't have eneogh points to post my own message.

But now that I'm here, I beseech your blessing Sir Bahamutand ask if you would be so kind, as to consider my theory, your valuable time permitting.(Geniflects and makes an offering of raspberry ice-cream with chocolate sauce)

Well as I said, i used to have my own (little quirky) Idea on the whole subject.Trouble is its full of holes and based on rather wishful thinking.And i,ve churned this around in my brain so much that I,ve practically abandoned trying to understand what square are really trying to tell us.Here't go's anyway.

Asuming that in a certain timeline,that Rinoa after losing Squall, was consumed by Grief or for whatever other reasonbecame Ulty.(have my doubts on the Ulty = Rin theory anyway)

Its just..Is it the object of this game to try and stop this tragic set of events from happening?Through Squalls personal redemption perhaps.And did Edea or ellone somehow know about this?(much like Auron in FFX)

Squall isn't a nice person.He doesn't have the qualities to fall in love or redeem another person.However through Rinoa he does infact find these qualities within himself,and we can see the theme of redemption running throughout the game.From Laguna to Irvine,almost every character betters him/herself.Laguna learns some responcability while Irvine learns to stop being..well, so randy.

At the end,we see that ever so infamous scene thats ambiguous as to whether Squall died or not.And this is critical to my theory.If Squall did die (timeline 1).Rinoa becomes Ulty through grief,pain,insanity.Or Squall finds the strenght to live and accept Rinoas love (timeline 2,the game we're playing).Rinoa is saved from evil through love.

In other words if time is unchanged, Rinoa = Ulty.If Time is changed through Ellone & Squall (see evidence sect below) Rinoa does not become Ulty in the fresh new future.

Then of course if Rinoa never became Ulty because of Squalls influence on time, then SeeD never would have been created.But then I thought even though if the future is changed,maybe the present (the party scene, FFVIIIs ending) may not be.The characters could live out their lives until the future (without Ulty) actually transpired.None of us have a doctorite in Chrono Physics, so we just don't know.

My Skimpy evidence section:Rinoa catching WHITE feather 1st FMV:Is this Symbolic of her final redemption.

Edea:Remember that weird speach she gave just before the attack on Lunatic Pandora.She tells Squall that there is an end,no matter how bitter it may be (killing Rinoa/Ulty?)or smth like that.

And at the end when Squall returns to the Orphanage to see Ulty pass powers on.Matron asks "is THIS the end"?Why'd she ask that?Huh?Huh?

Ellone:Well actually here's where the wishful thinking comes in.I'm just presuming that Ellone with her TIME TALENTS knew what was to transpire.

She says on Lunar base that the past cannot be changed,it's we the person that changes.Is this however some way of changing the future considering Squalls situation.Did Ellone by sending Squall back in time,into a guy that was FULL of love and caring,somehow change Squall himself?Was she instrumental in making Squall a better person.Eneogh to accept Rinoas love.

I seem to remember having more arguments,but I'm too tired to think of them now.Sorry.

Well looking back it does seem a rather weak theory doesn't it?I Hope I havn't wasted your time or clogged up this excellent board with nonsence.I'd love to know what you think of it anyway, or if anyone can see something to support this please let me know.

Keep up the good work Guys!!!

From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/4/2003 6:52:52 AM | Message DetailThan how come Minerva got a response from Square when she sent in her E-Mail about the Banishing Blade Symbols in FFX?

There's a slight difference you see. That was regarding an overdrive, not pertinent to the plot AT ALL. This question is the most pertinent plot question one could possibly ask regarding the game.

Anyway, most of these theories are incredibly stupid unless we know Square's stance on Time Travel and Paradoxes etc.

Not really. We have to assume they are either using the theory that killing your mother before you are born results in you immediately dissapearing, OR that it is impossible to kill your mother before you are born.Since the first one can be countered through Time Compression, it doesn't matter anymore.

Arguing over this is pointless as it is quite impossible to prove without getting one of the writers from Square to come in and say who is wrong and who is right.

If you had even bothered to read a few pages of this topic, you would have seen my posts over and over and over, saying that there is no proof to either side, and that these arguments are just helping players make THEIR individual choice.

Also, the Quistis ---> Ultimecia thing IS pertinent to this topic, as it shows you can provide circumstantial evidence that ANYONE in the game could be Ultimecia. It's basically the same thing as the Ultimecia ----> Cheeseburger idea.

I'm afraid you are quite wrong. The Quistis = Ultimecia theory is all fine, but (and it's a big but), the only thing that can support Quistis ever becoming a Sorceress is your imagination, thus it is idiotic to even consider it.

And don't even get me started on the Chesseburger.

Macalania Woods: I'll look over your theory properly later.Just one thing to point out:

You say that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia if Squall dies at the end of the game, and that she stays good if he lives.Well, if Rinoa is immortal, then Squall qould still die later on.

As I said, I'll come back to it as soon as possible. Also nice to see new people joining!

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 9/4/2003 8:50:20 AM | Message DetailSince a topic named 'Ultimecia's identity' has been recently created, a Quistis---->Ultimecia argument would be more suited to be presented there. I personally prefer the Hyne--->Ultimecia theory, but I've refrained from presenting it here because the center of the discussion is Rinoa. Arguments for or against the possibilty can (and have) been presented in this discussion without having to bring up alternitive theories.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Plushie | Posted: 9/4/2003 4:47:43 PM | Message DetailI'm afraid you are quite wrong. The Quistis = Ultimecia theory is all fine, but(and it's a big but), the only thing that can support Quistis ever becoming a Sorceress is your imagination, thus it is idiotic to even consider it.

Anyone else see the extreme hypocrisy inherent in that post?

The only major evidence for Rinoa ----> Ultimecia is based on imagined situation.

I mean, where in the game does it state that sorceress' are immortal? No where I see, in fact, there are several instances of them stating that they are NOT immortal.

For example, when Edea explains how she initially received her powers, she speaks of coming upon a DYING sorceress, who bequeathed unto her magical powers "BEFORE she died", thus leading one to believe she would have died anyway.---[This Message was deleted due to a GameFAQs moderator's abuse of the second Amendment]From: rapap | Posted: 9/4/2003 6:43:59 PM | Message DetailA mention was made about Esthar's way not to kill but to seal sorceresses. Found the exact quote today, but it is not specific to sorceresses.

The quote is from the female Staff of Lunar Gate in brown short-sleeved shirt and shorts heading upstairs towatds Ellone's room:

'There are dangers everywhere, and it's not enough just to get rid of them or keep them away. You must contain them and keep them under control. Such is Esthar's way.'

This could give a reason why Adel was sealed rather than killed.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 9/4/2003 7:30:07 PM | Message DetailWell, that pretty much throws out my other sorceresses in Esthar theory.

I define a time paradox as an event that causes a series of events to happen that allow for the first event to occur.

In example: A man travels back in time and tells himself it is possible to travel back in time. This event causes his past self to look for a way to go back in time. This leads him to be able to time travel when he would may have never considered it. Finally, he goes back in time to tell himself about time travel so he would be able to.

A question, did meeting his future self lead him to meeting his past self? If it did, then this is a time loop. The paradox is that time is a straight line that contains a loop. I think of this as a piece of rope on a desk. Take the rope and twist it so that it goes over itself then continues forward. That is that man's time flow. Where it crosses is where the he met himself in the past.Now try to make that rope completely straight, yet still have the rope crossing itself. Impossible? A completely straight rope that crosses itself. There you go, a paradox.

Paradox - An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises. (www.dictionary.com)

If time is like a rope, then time travel would create an intersection with two points on the rope. Thus, you must loop it to connect those two points. Acceptable?The contradiction, if time is a rope, then the rope must be completely straight.---"I said to leave me alone. I never said to forgot me"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/5/2003 6:01:10 AM | Message DetailThe only major evidence for Rinoa ----> Ultimecia is based on imagined situation.

You obviously failed to see my point. here it comes, slightly easier to comprehend:

The Rinoa = Ultimecia is an argument, based on assumptions, based off in game events. As an example, I believe Rinoa has the motives to be Ultimecia, because she didn't have a Knight, saw her friends die and try and kill her, etc. etc. etc. This is of the ingame events that Adel had no Knight and went berserk, a Sorceress is immortal so she would outlive Squall(based off several things) etc.

Now, the difference between the Rinoa = Ultimecia and the Quistis = Ultimecia, is that EVERY argument presented in the former, is "backed up by" in game events.In the latter, the most crucial point is NOT backed up by any in game event what so ever.

I hope I made myself clear as to why the Quistis = Ultimecia thing is pointless, while the Rinoa = Ultimecia point is not.

BTW, I'd like to repeat, due to all the newcomers, that I AM 100% neutral in the argument, and I favor not one side over the other. I argue against all points.

I mean, where in the game does it state that sorceress' are immortal? No where I see, in fact, there are several instances of them stating that they are NOT immortal.

You are correct, it never says written in dialogue that a Sorceress is immortal, but it never says they are either. We get the arguments for the Immortality from EVENTS.

For example, when Edea explains how she initially received her powers, she speaks of coming upon a DYING sorceress, who bequeathed unto her magical powers "BEFORE she died", thus leading one to believe she would have died anyway.

Again, you jump on the bandwagon and accuse us of things you have no idea about.If you had perhaps read a bit of this topic before barging in on the end like this, you might have noticed us saying that we believe a Sorceress can be killed like a human, but has an unlimited lifespan(like the Elves of Lord of the Rings).

This is proven by the Sorceress Assasination mission. If anyone wants to know how, just ask.

'There are dangers everywhere, and it's not enough just to get rid of them or keep them away. You must contain them and keep them under control. Such is Esthar's way.'

That does, unfortunately point away from the Immortality theory. Good job in finding the quote.

DarkRealm: Nice to see your point of view, but we are done discussing Paradoxes(read the other topic in case you missed it).

---"Don't be hasty"From: JediKnight2k2 | Posted: 9/5/2003 7:50:39 AM | Message DetailI emailed Squaresoft support and they said all of their game's endings are for players to speculate...but some of us (including myself) find ourselves losing sleep on these matters. Can someone find a way to contact the script writers fir ff8 and ask about their take on this theory?

I know it's almost impossible due to how busy those types of people are, but someone needs to try---Proud XBOX Owner and Star Wars FreakFrom: DarkRealmPoet | Posted: 9/5/2003 11:12:39 PM | Message DetailSorry, I was reading through the posts and saw mention of it. The whole impossible thing bugs me. Game fiction and the real world's laws are two different things.

Plus, I have a fascination with time travel and such... so I tend to look for an excuse to rattle my thoughts out.---"I said to leave me alone. I never said to forgot me"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/5/2003 11:52:49 PM | Message DetailWell, our conclusions was:

If Ultimecia is Rinoa, than using the theory I supported, it would be impossible to kill herself, and using the theory Teida presented, she could still kill Rinoa during Time Compression.

Thus, Ultimecia being able to kill/not kill Rinoa has no relevance with the argument, because following either theory, they can still be the same person.

Now, we found it logical to stick to only those theories, because they are the two most known and supported theories.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/6/2003 2:01:39 AM | Message Detail

Good news everyone!

I received a mail from Geasha, who explained that she was far too busy to post anymore, and the few times she came on, she couldn't find the topic.

Anyway, good news is that I received the entire last topic. I'll do some modification(transfer everything into Word and such) and then I can mail it to anyone who wants it.

---"Don't be hasty"From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/6/2003 6:33:08 PM | Message DetailI would be happy to read it. Just post here, once you finish it...From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/6/2003 6:56:20 PM | Message DetailMy first man!

I have really got to finish Griever.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Rikku Almighty | Posted: 9/7/2003 1:39:06 AM | Message DetailRinoa isnt Ultimecia, if you guys havent come to this conclusion, already.---~.*.~Neggi Ymsekrdo~.*.~In the end, only the fittest survive in this world. The strong live and the weak die.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/7/2003 3:25:41 AM | Message DetailRinoa isnt Ultimecia, if you guys havent come to this conclusion, already.

Your argument is flawless.

And just post your mailadresse and I'll mail it to you.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Rikku Almighty | Posted: 9/7/2003 3:36:24 AM | Message Detailrikku_almighty@yahoo.com---~.*.~Neggi Ymsekrdo~.*.~In the end, only the fittest survive in this world. The strong live and the weak die.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/7/2003 6:59:14 AM | Message DetailMail sent to Rikku.

By the way, to save someone here the trouble, yes, you will notice I started off a die hard Anti Rini=Ulty, but thanks to Geasha, Sideswipe and Onion, I was eventually changed.

Also, for those I send this too, be aware that it is 1,62 MB and like 137 pages in Word. Also, my name is not Mary, it's just my own account is broken.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Kelk | Posted: 9/7/2003 7:02:45 AM | Message Detailhyne@eircom.net---ô_ô IndeedFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/7/2003 7:11:47 AM | Message DetailManaged to send a mail without the attachment, but I'm sending the full thing as we speak(it takes ages per mail).

---"Don't be hasty"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/7/2003 5:00:28 PM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: Sana chan | Posted: 9/7/2003 8:08:37 PM | Message DetailThere is no proof for this theory. There is only speculation.From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/7/2003 8:19:14 PM | Message Detail>>There is only speculation.

We didn't say that there is proof. That's why it is called a theory. Duh! Same as with most Square games.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/7/2003 9:07:49 PM | Message DetailAlways nice to know I can still change opinions Bahamut. People do that to me all the time.

Don't know why you couldn't just check my profile, but here's my address:

sideswipezulu@hotmail.com

Thanks.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/8/2003 6:41:10 AM | Message DetailMails sent(or sending in Sideswipes case).

I'll save this topic when it reaches 500.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/8/2003 9:06:11 AM | Message DetailDon't you mean IF it reaches 500?

It seems that our FAQ is running full steam again, but discussion is down with the exception of smiting several n00bs when they enter.

Though I am impressed with a few of the theories they came up with.

I've been thinking . . .

Cid and Edea MUST have know about the future events. Edea obviously gained something from the transfer of Ultimecia's power to her. Right after it finishes, Edea realizes who Squall is, and tells him to return to his timeline.

With this foreknowledge, Cid and Edea could have prevented the events to come. Maybe, just maybe, they chose to allow everything to pass. Perhaps they knew that the alternate timeline was far worse than the havoc Ultimecia would wreak upon them.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/8/2003 11:01:34 AM | Message DetailThat's a good point.

Edea says: "You're that boy from the future, aren't you?".

How does she know this? Perhaps Ultimecia really did deliver some of her conscience to her. If not, that would really be tricky to explain.

Now, she says it as if she knew he would(or had) come, but it took some time before she drew the conclusion.This means she must have known before that it would happen. How? Very confusing, but if it was solved it might be extremely useful.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Geasha | Posted: 9/8/2003 11:41:39 AM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: Geasha | Posted: 9/8/2003 11:54:32 AM | Message DetailHi there,just checking how everyone is doing...

I'll try to come more often,but it's hard for me.BTW I've finished the reincarnation/ancestor theory a while ago,but haven't really started on my points for the R=U theory.

Do you want me to repost the faq plan?

And,who was this person that I mailed the last topic a long while ago?I thought it was either Sir Bahamut or SideswipeZulu,but obviously it wasn't(I just read your deseperate calls for me^_~)...I wonder.Maybe TheOnionKnight?

---God/General Director of Universe,IncCopyright-15 000 000 000 All Rights ReservedFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/8/2003 11:58:03 AM | Message DetailHello, Geasha, good to see you post!

And a repost of the FAQ plan would be quite nice.

---"Don't be hasty"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/8/2003 12:34:09 PM | Message Detail>>"You're that boy from the future, aren't you?".

The very quote that makes me believe that there is no paradox in that scene.

Allow me to explain: People say how there is a paradox in FFVIII, because of how Edea learns about SeeD, from Squall. Allow me to say this... Edea tells us, a couple of times, about how she created SeeD because she KNEW that Sorceresses were dangerous to humans. One has to wonder... is it necessary that she came to that conclusion when Ultimecia gave her the powers??? Did everyone forgot that Edea was ALREADY a Sorceress? She had received the powers of another Sorceress at the age of 5.

What's my point? Simple... we know that there is a time loop in FFVIII's plot. A loop, starting from the point where Squall meets Edea, till the point where Squall and the others defeat Ultimecia in the future. My guess is that Squall simply "accelerated" Edea's decisions.

It goes like this...1st time: Edea becomes a Sorceress at 5, decides to create SeeD some time later, Squall defeats Ultimecia.2nd time: Just after the end of the first time, Squall goes to the past and tells Edea about SeeD, Edea decides to create SeeD earlier, because of that and Ultimecia's powers.3rd,4th and so on, are basically the same as the second loop.

Now, why do I believe that Edea ALREADY knew what SeeD was, when Squall met her?

Allow me to post the dialogue:Edea: You called me Matron. Who... are you?Squall: A SeeD. A SeeD from Balamb Garden.

Edea: SeeD? Garden?Squall: Both Garden and SeeD were your ideas. Garden trains SeeDs. SeeDs are trained to defeat the sorceress.Edea: What are you saying? You're...that boy from the future?

Notice how Edea's first reaction to Squall's explanation is not another question(which would be more logical, seeing how Squall's explanation was not enough), but her understanding that the boy is Squall. Tell me, why would she come to that conclusion, combined with the "Matron part" by Squall? Because, she probably had already planned to create Gardens and that the boy would be one of the most important SeeDs. She KNEW!

In a word, no... Edea did not take the idea from Squall. She just decided that much earlier, because of Squall and because of her seeing Ultimecia.

NOTE: If that's true, then we probably played the second time in my loop theory... why? Because, Edea mentions Ultimecia in the past, which probably means that Squall had already found her(Edea) once...

Also, after reading some parts of the first topic, I would like to say something about the "visions" of Squall in the end.

Did anyone notice that many of the visions are FMVs that could not be seen, if the appropriate choices would be made. Namely:1) Squall sees XATM092 chasing him. That can't be seen, if Squall and the others enter that pub where the other 2 SeeDs were. ( I think)2) Balamb Garden being destroyed by Galbadia Missiles. This can be seen only if you are late in Balamb Garden.3) Rinoa on the Balamb balcony after the Garden starts moving. That can not be seen if you had Rinoa in Selphie's team.Also, there are scenes that definitely don't happen in the game. Rinoa not being in the dance. Rinoa dies in space.

I am not saying that it's true, that there is the possibility of Squall seeing the past change, and not just an illusion. On a funny side-note, they could also have added the demo scene, where you can see Rinoa and not Selphie. The same scene that was in the trailer that came with the Platinum edition of FFVII in Europe.

From: Matrix310 | Posted: 9/8/2003 1:59:18 PM | Message DetailSomeone mentioned that there is DEFINATE evidence of Laguna and Squall, I'm not saying you're wrong, but what is the definate evidence, when was it?From: Rikku Almighty | Posted: 9/8/2003 4:56:23 PM | Message DetailRaine + Laguna = Squall. Laguna had to go to Esthar before squall was born, and Raine died of illness before Laguna came back. Thus Squall ended up in the orphanage and laguna never got to see his kid. sad story.---~.*.~Neggi Ymsekrdo~.*.~In the end, only the fittest survive in this world. The strong live and the weak die.From: Rikku Almighty | Posted: 9/8/2003 4:58:10 PM | Message Detail

btw, im still not convinced that Rinoa and Ulty are the same person. ---~.*.~Neggi Ymsekrdo~.*.~In the end, only the fittest survive in this world. The strong live and the weak die.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/8/2003 7:54:41 PM | Message DetailNot everyone is.

And I concur with Bahamut, a reposting of the FAQ outline would be nice.

BUT I'M STILL WAITING FOR MY COPY OF THE FIRST TOPIC.

. . . Bahamut . . .---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/9/2003 5:00:33 AM | Message DetailInteresting point lindblum resident, I always knew there was a repetition of the game, but I never thought it might change from time to time.

If so then they must be supporting the theory that every possible outcome of a situation is happening at the same time in different dimensions. Interesting.

Sideswipe: Hmm, strange. I KNOW I sent it. Oh well, I'll send it again.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Kelk | Posted: 9/9/2003 11:32:10 AM | Message Detailthanks for the copy of the first topic :)---ô_ô IndeedFrom: Rikku Almighty | Posted: 9/9/2003 4:55:54 PM | Message Detailoy! can you resend me that first topic too? sorry..rikku_almighty@yahoo.com---~.*.~Neggi Ymsekrdo~.*.~In the end, only the fittest survive in this world. The strong live and the weak die.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/10/2003 6:12:55 AM | Message DetailMail sent to Rikku.

---"Don't be hasty"From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/10/2003 6:25:56 AM | Message DetailThank you, Sir Bahamut!

Now, I don't know if that would be of much importance, but out of the 6 party members( and probably Seifer, Laguna, Kiros and Ward as well), only Rinoa has a question mark over her blood type. The other person with an unknown blood type is Edea.

Isn't it weird? Rinoa doesn't start the game as a Sorceress. She becomes one, later...

what would be the point of having an unknown blood type? Is it possible that certain girls are more appropriate for receiving Sorceresses' powers, than others? With a critical criterion being the blood type?

Also, as far as I know, the blood type is somewhat indicative of someone's personality according to Japanese culture. That's why we also see many anime characters having specified blood types (FFVII characters also had blood types). Could this mean something? Maybe that a Sorceress can be both good and bad(personality-wise)? And if it is so, the question still stands... why does Rinoa have an unknown blood type? Is there something that we can't see? Or is she just a girl more capable of receiving Sorceress powers? ...Probably giving us a hint, as to why Rinoa received Edea's powers instead of Selphie or Quistis?Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/10/2003 6:29:05 AM | Message DetailGood point. You certainly have an eye for details.

Oh, one thing to add to that, you say the blood-type is indicative of personality in japan, well, that could mean Rinoa is an "unknown" person, as in it's not quite clear who she is.I'm sure you see where I'm getting to.

Just a thought.

---"Don't be hasty"From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/10/2003 6:39:08 AM | Message Detail>>You certainly have an eye for details.

Thank you. I always do that with Square games. I have even tried to translate every Yevon, Al Bhed, Spiran word appearing in Spira. And I have managed to translate the majority of them, using some scans from the Ultimania... ^_^

Um, anyway, back to topic...

Yes, I see where you are getting to. Maybe, that's also a reason for Edea's unknown blood type. We "learn" that she is bad, but in the end, we find out that she is on our side... interesting point...From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/10/2003 6:51:43 AM | Message DetailWhoops, sorry for a consecutive post, but I also remembered something else.

Take a look here...

http://www.naimoka.com/index.php?rub=nomura&page=ff8-2

Take a look at all the CG images of the main characters. It's easier since they are close to each other, and the thumbnails show only the eyes.

It's interesting to see how Rinoa is the only one to have dark eyes, and the only one with that "eye shape"...

The shape probably is not THAT important, but I always wondered about Rinoa's eye color. And it's even more weird, seeing how Square uses such eye colors VERY RARELY. The only ones that come in mind are Yuffie, Tifa and Garnet. And even from them, only Yuffie gets close to such a color. Tifa has a "reddish" color, while Garnet has brown... but black... nope, only Rinoa..

Also, notice the size and position of Rinoa's pupil. Very large and waaay down compared to the others. Nomura definitely made Rinoa look different for a purpose..

I am not saying that this is a proof of U=R. I am only saying that it is like Rinoa was destined to become a Sorceress, being different and all..From: ragnarok5743 | Posted: 9/10/2003 7:08:41 AM | Message DetailIt's interesting to see how Rinoa is the only one to have dark eyes, and the only one with that "eye shape"...

The shape probably is not THAT important, but I always wondered about Rinoa's eye color. And it's even more weird, seeing how Square uses such eye colors VERY RARELY. The only ones that come in mind are Yuffie, Tifa and Garnet. And even from them, only Yuffie gets close to such a color. Tifa has a "reddish" color, while Garnet has brown... but black... nope, only Rinoa..

Also, notice the size and position of Rinoa's pupil. Very large and waaay down compared to the others. Nomura definitely made Rinoa look different for a purpose..

I am not saying that this is a proof of U=R. I am only saying that it is like Rinoa was destined to become a Sorceress, being different and all..

I've just seen the pictures, and I agree that Rinoa's eyes look different. To me, she looks quite Asian, her eyes especially. I think that she is just meant to be drawn like that and I doubt that she is destined to become a Sorceress just because she is drawn differently.---Join www.ffantasy.com/boards. They need members...And if you can't spell ragnarok, call me Rag. :)From: rapap | Posted: 9/10/2003 7:17:57 AM | Message DetailTake a look in the Tutorial regarding sorceress powers (or something to that extent). It notes how only certain people are able to recieve sorceress powers. I'll try to post the exact quote later.

One possibility regarding blood types. I don't have a game manual, but since only Rinoa and Edea have unknown blood types, it could be because they were never registered at a Garden. Since the Gardens evetually became almost military-type facilities, it seems reasonable that a Garden would keep detailed medical records of

its members, including blood type.

If someone could post just a list of the names in the manual and their corresponding blood type, it would be helpful. I Have another possibility, but I'll refrain from presenting that one until I can better present the above mentioned one.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/10/2003 8:09:16 AM | Message Detail>>Since the Gardens evetually became almost military-type facilities, it seems reasonable that a Garden would keep detailed medical records of its members, including blood type.

Probably, but we see the blood types of Laguna, Kiros and Ward as well...

Also, I didn't mention Rinoa's eyes as a proof. I clearly stated that. I just said that it is interesting how Nomura chose to draw Rinoa very differently.

Anyway:Squall:ABRinoa:?Zell:BQuistis:ASelphie:BIrvine:ASeifer:OLaguna:BKiros:OWard:AEdea:?From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/10/2003 8:13:25 AM | Message Detail>>It notes how only certain people are able to recieve sorceress powers.

No, it doesn't say that.

Here's what it says:Any person who has the capacity to embody the great sorceress power is a candidate. It's in the "Sorceress Power and Embodiment" part.

From: rapap | Posted: 9/10/2003 11:14:16 AM | Message DetailWell, Kiros, Ward and Laguna were in the Galbadian army...

Also, I don't remember arguing over Rinoa's eyes, was directed at me? Otherwise, I don't know why you brought it up again. *shrug*

As for the embodiement of sorceress powers, are you saying 'anyone' can recieve sorceress powers? From what I remember reading, not everyone is capable of embodying sorceress powers. It would be helpful if you could post the whole tutorial entry. I'd go read it myself, but I'm on the way to the lab, then work later.---

"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/10/2003 11:27:20 AM | Message DetailBahamut, send email!!!!---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/10/2003 11:29:38 AM | Message DetailThat text makes it quite clear that not everyone can.

If anyone could have received their powers it wouldn't need to be added that people with the capacity can.

Basically, only as it says, people with large enough capacity(or whatever phrase they use) can receive the powers.

---"Don't be hasty"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/10/2003 11:56:05 AM | Message DetailDamnit, Sideswipe, I already sent you 2 mails!!

I can take a picture of my Sent Items if you don't believe me(of course, it won't get through but anyway).

Somethings wrong with your email, because it worked fine for the others.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/10/2003 12:10:42 PM | Message DetailWhat is your email account? I might have blocked the site for spam.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: SmallvilleGirly | Posted: 9/10/2003 12:25:53 PM | Message DetailI had a thought on the theory...if it's okay that I stick my 2 cents in.

I've noticed a lot of people say that Ulty looks like Quistis, and blah blah, but that made me think: maybe Ultimecia did that herself.

Games usually placed emphasis on a Boss' final form as either their "Ultimate form" or their "True form". Since there was no real sign of an "Ultimate form", which usually appears when the villian has a) more than one form or b) (usually the case of

the humanoid bosses)Get some sort of "power up". Since the game showed no evidence of Ulty's final form to be an "Ultimate form", I think it's safer to lean towards her final form as her "True form". Since present day Rinoa is taking part in the fight against Ultimecia, it should be impossible for Ulty to be the same, so perhaps that "final form" is more of a created form, to protect Ultimecia from the effects of Time Compression.

However, she is more likely to remain in her true appearance while sitting around at home, right? Well...

Since Ulty probably doesn't want to be sitting on her throne at the end and the whole gang busts in and goes "GASP! It's Rinoa!!" I'm speculating that she may have changed her physical appearance so that her past self wouldn't recognize her. I'm just saying, basically, that if we're going by the time loop thing, than Ulty would know that Rinoa was coming, and would know she would be defeated and Rinoa would live on. However, if Rinoa found out that she were to become Ultimecia in the future, don't you think she'd do something to stop that? So that's why I think it's possible that Ultimecia changed her physical appearance.

Now where was I going with her first form's appearance? I'll agree, the face shape looks a lot like Quistis, but that's pretty much where any similarity ends. I've noticed her eyes a lot like Edea's, her hair colour is a lot like Fujin's, the makeup on her face reminds me of Zell's tattoo, the hair style reminds me of Seymour (no, seriously the two long "horn" things remind me of very whacked out Selphie curls) and I'm sure that if I looked hard enough I'd see bits of Irvine in there too. Maybe the cocky smirk or those shoulders or something.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, maybe Rinoa/Ultimecia took bits and pieces of the people she knew in the past to disguise herself so that the others wouldn't know she was their friend, Rinoa.

I KNOW that sounds far fetched and out of whack, but it made more sense in my head.....sorry for wasting your time...

---The thrill is in the hunt, not the capture.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/10/2003 1:19:24 PM | Message DetailSmallvilleGirly: You didn't waste our time one bit. You are quite right in saying that Ultimecia probably wouldn't want them to go all shocked like that.

Another way to look at it is that seeing Rinoa was battling Ultimecia, she remembers how she looks like, and so as to not mess up time and space(presuming you believe time and space can be messed up at all) she puts on that appearance.

Although I prefer your view, because using this theory too often(only one significant place is why Ultimecia returns to Orphanage) could lead to something like:

Rinoa becomes Ultimecia through a mistake. She thinks she is becoming Ultimecia, and thus does exactly what she remembers to keep her and Squall together in another timeline.

And I don't like that theory very much.

Sideswipe: I'm using a "c2i" account.

---"Don't be hasty"From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/10/2003 6:29:38 PM | Message DetailAgain, I didn't mention Rinoa's eyes as a proof. I just found interesting the way, Nomura chose to draw her differently. Maybe it was off-topic, sorry...

Yes, now that you mention it, maybe the capacity part limits the possibilities a little.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/11/2003 8:45:54 AM | Message DetailWell, its not on my blocked list . . . I think.

Can't you just use that hotmail account you have?

sideswipezulu@hotmail.com---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/11/2003 9:47:35 AM | Message DetailErm, thing is, I never used that one once, so it doesn't work anymore.

I could reactivate but I don't know if I could be bothered.

Can't someone else here who I mailed it to send it to you?

---"Don't be hasty"From: goldensword | Posted: 9/11/2003 10:11:54 AM | Message DetailUmm, I've got the PAL version and in the ending there is like a VERY weird flashback of the Seed dance showing Rinoa... I bet it's in the U.S version too, but suddenly Rinoa's face changes to Ultimecia's, then Rinoa again, then Ultimecia, so on. The second I saw this I thought Rinoa was future Ultimecia... I was also wondering about Greiver. About the imagination thing. Rinoa had a a ring like Squall's, right? Maybe future Rinoa turned it into the G.F. Of course, that's if Ultimecia is Rinoa. I also agree with the poster talking about her eyes. BTW, can someone tell me why Ultimecia wanted Time Compression? Just to eliminate every human being?? Or maybe she wanted to go to the past to change something about Squall's meeting with Rinoa... Of course, this is the second part, so I don't know if you've discussed these points already...From: Kupox3 | Posted: 9/11/2003 9:10:48 PM | Message DetailRinoa couldn't possibly be the future Ultimicia because of the last scenes on disk one, where they were trying to assasinate Edea. Ultimicia is controlling Edea right? So why would she send those two beasts to kill Rinoa? If she was truly Rinoa in the future, why would she want to kill herself? From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/12/2003 5:47:42 AM | Message DetailThe easiest explanation is:

Since she WAS Rinoa in the past, she obviously KNOWS she won't die, or else she wouldn't be where she is.

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From: akaripup | Posted: 9/12/2003 9:06:23 AM | Message Detailthan why would she send those monsters if she doesn't want to kill Rinoa and she KNOWS it won't kill Rinoa? It's pretty pointless to send the monsters. just a waste of time and effort on her part. ---Kupo! Blah! Kweh!From: rapap | Posted: 9/12/2003 9:36:52 AM | Message DetailWell Edea (possessed by Ultimecia) does say that she wants to end the ceremony with a sacrifice. I suppose a R=U supporter could say that she meant that the Iguions themselves were the sacrifice, not Rinoa.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Kupox3 | Posted: 9/12/2003 4:04:39 PM | Message DetailSince she WAS Rinoa in the past, she obviously KNOWS she won't die, or else she wouldn't be where she is

Then why did she throw an ice spear at Squall? U could argue that she knows that it won't kill him, but if she was Rinoa, wouldn't she have some sentiments for Squall? I mean why would she want to hurt him? And what's the point of throwing the spear if she knows he won't die. From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/12/2003 4:26:08 PM | Message DetailSimple.

For reasons stated about 500 times in this topic(ok, mild exaggeration) she goes insane.

OR, she just repeats everything she remembers so that she and Squall can still be together in the past.

The fact that she KNOWS she can't die(or else she wouldn't be able to possess Edea) can then explain the ritual. Using the insanity theory she wanted Squall to come up so the Iguanas could kill him(provided she doesn't remember all the past), and using the other theory she remembers that it was at that point it all started so obviously she wants it to happen again(provided she remembers the past).

Same thing with the Icebolt. Insanity or memory.

---"Don't be hasty"From: akaripup | Posted: 9/13/2003 1:30:49 PM | Message DetailFirst you claim that she "loses her memory". THEN you claim that she remembers all of this happening and simply re-enacting it out. Make up your mind!!! Does she lose her memory? or does she remember everything? Also, Who says Squall dies? He obviously lives in the ending, as does all the rest of the gang. So what does she have to go insane about?---Kupo! Blah! Kweh!From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/13/2003 2:10:58 PM | Message DetailI'm sorry if I confused you by presenting two different theories in one post, let me explain more carefully:

There are as of now, 4 Motives presented as for why Rinoa/Ultimecia does what she does throughout the game.They are:

*Rinoa goes insane because of experiencing watching everyone she loves die(assuming of course that a Sorceress has a long/unlimited lifespan, an assumption backed up by several arguments). Alternatively, one could add that when she realizes who she is becoming she realizes that Squall and Co are going to kill her so she snaps(although this last added point is rather feeble, seeing Rinoa says in the game that she will be ok getting killed as long as it is Squall who kills her).

or

*After watching everyone she loves die, she doesn't go mad, but starts changing personality-wise etc.(due to the grief etc.). Then she realizes who she has become and realizes that unless she repeats what she remembers Ultimecia(or herself) doing in the past(or future...complex, I know), she and Squall will never meet in the past.

or

*Continuous use of GF causes memory to fade. Then the fact that SeeD starts trying to kill her triggers her wish to Compress time etc.

or

*A mix of the above.

I hope I made myself more clear.

Also, Who says Squall dies? He obviously lives in the ending, as does all the rest of the gang. So what does she have to go insane about?

Obviously, Squall is a normal human being, so eventually he will die, be it of old age or disease or anything else, he WILL die.Rinoa, being a Sorceress, could have Very Long/Unlimited Lifespan(backed up by in-

game events), thus, Squall and everyone else she loves would rot away infront of her.

---"Don't be hasty"From: akaripup | Posted: 9/13/2003 9:01:33 PM | Message DetailFirstly, If you're so sure that Rin is Ulty, than why are there so many theories. If you're sure that she's ulty, than you should have one rock solid theory. Not "oooh, MAYBE it's this.. or MAYBE it's that.. or MAYBEEEEE she's just doing all of this because she's bored". Secondly, anyone can just make up a perposterous idea and find some evidence in any shape or form to support it. The "proof" that you UltyRin people give are just things that "could be". Someone just came up with the idea, and pulled some stuff up saying that it's possible. Sure, it's possible, it's ALSO possible that Squall is Zell! He COULD have gone INSANE and dyed his hair blonde and developed some kind of obsession for hot dogs and THAN maybe he could have found a sorceress, forced her to make him young, and gone back in timmmeee to live out "Zell"'s life at the orphanage and garden... That would explain why Zell looks up to Squall so much and why he kind of has a crush (so people say) on Rinoa AND his hatred for Seifer. Hahahahaha. ---Kupo! Blah! Kweh!From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/13/2003 10:09:34 PM | Message DetailAs Geasha is busy with things in life that are important (note: not sarcastic), I'll take charge of the FAQ compilation.

Bahamut, tell how you're coming along, and then email Geasha and ask how they're doing.

Then remind me on everyone else who was working on this.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: enemy of the public | Posted: 9/14/2003 12:05:03 AM | Message DetailThere are numerous reasons why she cannot be Ultimecia.

****SPOILERS****

1) The passing on of powers has been cursed by the sorceress recieving them being able to be controlled. If Rinoa is Ultimecia then why would she need to be controlled? I have always been puzzled by this part of the theory.

2) Ultimecia ultimately aims to ally herself with sorceress Adel, wouldn't she be more powerful by allying herself with a pure version of her own power?

3) The essay about this plays far too much emphasis on the idea of the Griever ring. While I like the actual theory of it, there is evidence from the Japanese text that disproves this theory. When it comes to the battle with 'Griever' Ultimecia is quoted as saying "!I shall craft an enemy from your own mind..." (or something vewry similar to that) if you scan Griever it says "In Squall's mind Griever is the Ultimate GF. So what has happened is that since childhood Squall has worshipped the idea of

being a lion and naming his ring has made the experience all the more personal. Ultimecia preys on this in the future and uses it to what she believes is her advantage.

4) The other issue I have with the original theory of this is what the writer claimed about the location of Ultimecia's castle, claiming that (in his setting) Rinoa had great grief once Squall died and so set up her castle on the edge of the old orphanage where he promised to meet her. But the truth of this is much more simple, the castle was actually placed there By the six controllable characters . The reason being that they needed a place where they could strongly feel together, all bar Rinoa went to the orphanage together PLUS Rinoa and Squall made a promised to meet there eternally. While this does little to dent the argument of Rinoa being Ultimecia, it does dent the idea of why the castle was in that specifc location.

5) Has anyone mentioned the dead white seeds at this point? I picked up an old save for fun days ago and suddenly noticed how there are the bodies of the white seeds near the bottom opf the chain. Since the future world must be very distant then what possibly happened is this scenario... Originally before she could use Time compression Ultimecia as a child recieved her powers from Adel, due to the game's use of paradox it is possible that the reason she finds Ultimecia is because she used Time compression. Leap frog forward what I guess is at least 30 years and suddenly we have two mature sorceresses. Now remember Rinoa was dead intent on being a good sorceress, a key quote Squall is "Not all sorceresses are bad, some are good sorceresses, Edea was one" Now Edea had command of the white seeds. Could it be that Rinoa and Squall trained a new elite of white seeds, sent them against Ultimecia only for them to fail? I think these corpses are key to the whole argument and should be throughly investigated.

I side against the theory though the quotes Ultimecia says are very interesting, then again much like the infamous FF7 essay this one is also prone to interpreting the quotes how the writer wants. It is possible that Ultimecia was simply saying something before she died, something to craft a memory of her from, she could also have been pointing to the fact Rinoa will become Ultimecia.

In short the game has proven to be the spawn of this theory through its Paradox ending where Squall goes back to the past, without this scene the theory would be counterable wholly, but the scene is there so we can only point to the obvious flaws and of course benefits.

As always I advocate futher research and I mean Research into this theory. But bear in mind that a conclusive ending must be as fair and non-judgemental as possible.---Phoenix45000 is back again, off the record and on the warpath! Always I fly close to death, but never has his scythe touched me.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 1:16:55 AM | Message Detailakirapup: Sorry, I'm sick of answering posts like these, as I have done so way too many times through this topic. Read some of it and you should find your answer rather soon.Also, if you had read some of this topic you would know I DON'T support either theory.

1) The passing on of powers has been cursed by the sorceress recieving them being able to be controlled. If Rinoa is Ultimecia then why would she need to be controlled? I have always been puzzled by this part of the theory.

If you wanted to use your past self to do something, would you be able to just think abvout what to do and then your past self would be aware of it? No.Rinoa in the past would have no idea about her plans in the future, just like you have NO idea what you are going to be doing 20 years from now. Thus, she needs to be controlled, just like anyone else.

2) Ultimecia ultimately aims to ally herself with sorceress Adel, wouldn't she be more powerful by allying herself with a pure version of her own power?

You mean ally herswlf with her past power. In the past there, Rinoa only has Edeas powers. Adels powers are clearly more powerful.

3) The essay about this plays far too much emphasis on the idea of the Griever ring. While I like the actual theory of it, there is evidence from the Japanese text that disproves this theory. When it comes to the battle with 'Griever' Ultimecia is quoted as saying "!I shall craft an enemy from your own mind..." (or something vewry similar to that) if you scan Griever it says "In Squall's mind Griever is the Ultimate GF. So what has happened is that since childhood Squall has worshipped the idea of being a lion and naming his ring has made the experience all the more personal. Ultimecia preys on this in the future and uses it to what she believes is her advantage.

Who said anything about the ring being proof? Please read this topic, I assure you, it's not like the previous ones.

4) The other issue I have with the original theory of this is what the writer claimed about the location of Ultimecia's castle, claiming that (in his setting) Rinoa had great grief once Squall died and so set up her castle on the edge of the old orphanage where he promised to meet her. But the truth of this is much more simple, the castle was actually placed there By the six controllable characters . The reason being that they needed a place where they could strongly feel together, all bar Rinoa went to the orphanage together PLUS Rinoa and Squall made a promised to meet there eternally. While this does little to dent the argument of Rinoa being Ultimecia, it does dent the idea of why the castle was in that specifc location.

That's just another way to look at it. Don't take your word for absolute truth.

5) Has anyone mentioned the dead white seeds at this point? I picked up an old save for fun days ago and suddenly noticed how there are the bodies of the white seeds near the bottom opf the chain. Since the future world must be very distant then what possibly happened is this scenario... Originally before she could use Time compression Ultimecia as a child recieved her powers from Adel, due to the game's use of paradox it is possible that the reason she finds Ultimecia is because she used Time compression. Leap frog forward what I guess is at least 30 years and suddenly we have two mature sorceresses. Now remember Rinoa was dead intent on being a good sorceress, a key quote Squall is "Not all sorceresses are bad, some are good sorceresses, Edea was one" Now Edea had command of the white seeds. Could it be

that Rinoa and Squall trained a new elite of white seeds, sent them against Ultimecia only for them to fail? I think these corpses are key to the whole argument and should be throughly investigated.

Firstly, there is no Paradox happening here.Secondly, well, Edea would still be alive following long/unlimited lifespan, so I don't see why she couldn't do it alone.

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 1:17:22 AM | Message DetailIn short the game has proven to be the spawn of this theory through its Paradox ending where Squall goes back to the past, without this scene the theory would be counterable wholly, but the scene is there so we can only point to the obvious flaws and of course benefits.

It's not a paradox! And it's obviously not without just this scene, it's without many of the scenes that it would be counterable.

As always I advocate futher research and I mean Research into this theory. But bear in mind that a conclusive ending must be as fair and non-judgemental as possible.

Why don't you read this topic then. And also the previous one, before you lecture us on doing research.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 1:40:23 AM | Message DetailAnd Sideswipe, I'll try and finish off my bit today.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 9/14/2003 1:54:00 AM | Message DetailHmm, Sir Bahamut, I'm guessing you're starting to believe that sorceresses have extended life spans? Because a lot of the discussion I've seen thrown around recently hinges on the sorceress lifespan issue.

I'd like to point out that an extended lifespan isn't 'backed up' from evidence in the game, but rather an interpretation of in-game evidence.

If one were to assume that sorceresses don't have extended lifespans then a lot of the theories thrown around recently wouldn't hold much merit.---

"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: enemy of the public | Posted: 9/14/2003 3:25:09 AM | Message DetailWho said anything about the ring being proof? Please read this topic, I assure you, it's not like the previous ones.

I am not going by the topic, I read an actual essay about this and one of its key points was the griever ring. Soeone here should have a link to it, as it started the whole thing off years ago.

That's just another way to look at it. Don't take your word for absolute truth.

If you play the game through to the ocmpression part laguna specifically instructs the group, "Focus on a place where you all feel together." After falling from reality and into the ocmpressed world Zell asks Squall where they go and Squall replies "To Edea's house Therefore it seems like a large portion of the truth, I won't say absolute, but it is the most likely explanation.

Firstly, there is no Paradox happening here.Secondly, well, Edea would still be alive following long/unlimited lifespan, so I don't see why she couldn't do it alone.

Firstly: - The game specifically uses scenes that are impossible, example Squall goes to past and tells Edea about Garden and how they train to fight Seed. This is paradox as Squall could not possibly not know about it like he does in the game

Secondly: - yes Edea could be alive but again there is no conclusive proof of long/unlimited lifespan is there?

It's not a paradox! And it's obviously not without just this scene, it's without many of the scenes that it would be counterable.

It IS a paradox, he instructs Edea about Seed, but later knows nothing. That is a paradox, time goes a to b, NOT b to a to b

Why don't you read this topic then. And also the previous one, before you lecture us on doing research.

No need to troll, my point here is simply that there should be objective research. I may have an opinion on this essay/approach but it has come about after months of analysis (yes I have seen these things numerous times before). I am not trying to lecture anyone, I suggest you take a step back and regroup your points, it seems you have become to immersed and attached to this discussion. ---Phoenix45000 is back again, off the record and on the warpath! Always I fly close to death, but never has his scythe touched me.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 4:33:19 AM | Message DetailHmm, Sir Bahamut, I'm guessing you're starting to believe that sorceresses have

extended life spans? Because a lot of the discussion I've seen thrown around recently hinges on the sorceress lifespan issue.

I believe it is a possibility, yes.

I'd like to point out that an extended lifespan isn't 'backed up' from evidence in the game, but rather an interpretation of in-game evidence.

Which is why I put "Backed up" with "s(well, on most of them anyway).

I am not going by the topic, I read an actual essay about this and one of its key points was the griever ring. Soeone here should have a link to it, as it started the whole thing off years ago.

I have also read that essay and mosty of the points suck, to be honest. However, just becasue you see Rinoa dn Ultimecia in the title doesn't mean we are going after that essay.

If you play the game through to the ocmpression part laguna specifically instructs the group, "Focus on a place where you all feel together." After falling from reality and into the ocmpressed world Zell asks Squall where they go and Squall replies "To Edea's house Therefore it seems like a large portion of the truth, I won't say absolute, but it is the most likely explanation.

You said that the castle was placed where it was BECASUE they fealt strongly about the place. What makes you think that?Do you believe that the Time Compressed world is a place where you can decide where castles lie? Explain yourself.

Firstly: - The game specifically uses scenes that are impossible, example Squall goes to past and tells Edea about Garden and how they train to fight Seed. This is paradox as Squall could not possibly not know about it like he does in the game

Don't you see the contradiction inb that statement? If the scene is impossible than how did it happen? Simple, because it isn't impossible, thus it is NOT a paradox.

Secondly: - yes Edea could be alive but again there is no conclusive proof of long/unlimited lifespan is there?

N, there is no conclusive proof, but unless you like using Occams Razor then there is no proof the other way either.Both are possible depending on how you interpret in-game events.

It IS a paradox, he instructs Edea about Seed, but later knows nothing. That is a paradox, time goes a to b, NOT b to a to b

The Squall that tells her DOES know later, it is the little Squall you see who doesn't know. There is no paradox involved here, simply because it actually happens. And time IS going from a to b here for Squall, as in HIS timeline, a to b involves a timetravel.

No need to troll, my point here is simply that there should be objective research. I may have an opinion on this essay/approach but it has come about after months of analysis (yes I have seen these things numerous times before). I am not trying to lecture anyone, I suggest you take a step back and regroup your points, it seems you have become to immersed and attached to this discussion.

But you see, you are basing arguments on an essay that we are not using, which is why you can't say this.And we are collecting our points in an FAQ, in case you didn't notice.

---"Don't be hasty"From: HengkyGun | Posted: 9/14/2003 5:33:46 AM | Message Detail

this kind of topic makes me want to re-play FF8 all over again... nice!---maybe I'd be better on my own; it's easier for me to be aloneMichelle BranchFrom: enemy of the public | Posted: 9/14/2003 7:16:01 AM | Message DetailYou said that the castle was placed where it was BECASUE they fealt strongly about the place. What makes you think that?Do you believe that the Time Compressed world is a place where you can decide where castles lie? Explain yourself.

What makes me think it? Play the game again, Laguna tells them the compression is a world where they need to be able to hold onto to each other's identities. So in order to do that they choose their place of landing as Edea's house, a place where they all have a great sentimental attachment. Although to be oerfectly honest I thought balamb garden would have been more effective, but I ain't the creators am I?

The house is their entryway to the world, if you go through the portals on the chain and do the quest to get the ragnarok back you can fly to Edea's house but NOT enter it. This shows that the world about them is a representation. And that they decided to put Ulty's cstle there in thier minds so that their bodies could take the strain of beign in three different times at once.---Phoenix45000 is back again, off the record and on the warpath! Always I fly close to death, but never has his scythe touched me.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 7:42:04 AM | Message DetailThe house is their entryway to the world, if you go through the portals on the chain and do the quest to get the ragnarok back you can fly to Edea's house but NOT enter it. This shows that the world about them is a representation. And that they decided to put Ulty's cstle there in thier minds so that their bodies could take the strain of beign in three different times at once.

That is a very good point. Well done, you presented a extremely good argument against ONE of the points, the point you found to be the most insignificant.

If you want to argue more, please argue on points presented in this topic, and not in the Essay.

---"Don't be hasty"From: enemy of the public | Posted: 9/14/2003 8:13:22 AM | Message DetailThat is a very good point. Well done, you presented a extremely good argument against ONE of the points, the point you found to be the most insignificant.If you want to argue more, please argue on points presented in this topic, and not in the Essay

I have enjoyed debating the emphasis of the original documentation, of course the secondary sources found in this topic may prove an interesting read. I am just trying to resolve some of the points originally made, crucially we should attend to the matter of the original essay document, analyse it and then address the theory to other parts of the game failed to be explored, hopefully through doing this we can come to a well researched theory on the truth of Rinoa = Ultimecia.

What this tiny debate about the castle has done is remove the weak from the chaff. Now it is a question of without the house being a physical place then what of the rest of theory and how does it hold together? That is what must now be faced.

The one that interests me is the idea of eternal or attenuated ageing. A point made both by the original essay and some believers of the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory is that sorceresses don't age. Unfortunately the evidence for or against this case is contaminated. The only sorceress we see anything related to age of is Edea. Adel is frozen in space for 17 years so her body tissues do not have a chance to decay, Ultimecia is a sorceress we know next to nothing about, in fact in terms of real character we do know nothing, except that she controlled present day sorceresses and gave her power to Edea. Hyne is merely mentioned as the origin of the sorceress line though again no other information is available, finally Rinoa is age 18 and we never see anything of her as an older woman.

So let us focus on Edea. A point often made as proof of the ageless debate is her marriage to Cid. As we know Cid is physically very aged while Edea is not. BUT. Edea's character notes say she is merely 40 years old. Some women at that age are still in their physical prime, however Cid's age is unknown. It is possible that there is an age gap of 10 -20 years between the couple and therefore Cid has begun to age while Edea has yet to.

Unfortunately this is the only real evidence of rebuttal that can be made to the claim. while logically it makes sense there is no truth thanks to Cid's age being unknown (Which I find an anomaly, what is it about Cid that makes his age a mystery?) On the whole it seems that physical age is something that is a personal decision and something that cannot be influenced by outside factors.---Phoenix45000 is back again, off the record and on the warpath! Always I fly close to death, but never has his scythe touched me.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 8:36:02 AM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

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From: enemy of the public | Posted: 9/14/2003 8:41:48 AM | Message DetailThe question of Esthar's motives has always beena difficult issue, it could be that they wanted to contain her power, remember Laguna was a guy who believed in letting people live, so rather than execute their former ruler they merely contained her.

The question about die in peace, I think that it simply means the manner of their passing. Remember Ultimecia wants nothing more than to control the sorceresses power in the time compressed world. Yet when she dies she doesn't horde the power she releases it to Edea. (Possible Paradox there, where did Ultimecia gain her powers in the first place?)

So that she dies peacefully, she simpyl disolves and her existence is gone. If she didn't do it this way perhaps she'd have suffered for a great length of time before she finally died?---Phoenix45000 is back again, off the record and on the warpath! Always I fly close to death, but never has his scythe touched me.From: MouseIX | Posted: 9/14/2003 8:56:05 AM | Message DetailSorry to jump into this topic Way into it but I started another game of ff8 a short time ago and just came across this topic today (i remember another one from Way back but don't remember most of the points.). It just occurred to me, although it's not really narrative evidence, has anybody got a model viewer or texture viewer or similar? It would be nice to compare Ultimicia and Rinoa's models and textures to see how similar they really are. If Rinoa is supposed to equal Ultimicia (personally i disagree with this but am aware that there are many strong points for both sides) then I would imagine that the designers would have ensured that the figures used were at least similar. If anybody can compare these and see if they are obviously Completely different or obviously Very similar then that would be quite helpful imho. Obviously since the theory is never fully commented on during the game this is unlikely, but, hey, it's just a thought.

---I would make myself a signature only I don't know how.http://tinyclick.com/?39szrjFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 9:32:22 AM | Message DetailSorry, enemy, deleted the post because I made a mistake. HEre it comes again corrected:

Just to get the Sorceress Lifespan started:

It is made quite clear in the game that a Sorceress can be killed like a human(seeing you do actually kill 2 Sorceresses and attempt to kill another one).

However, lets look at a line uttered very near the end of the game. A line uttered by Edea, and a line that if the truth about it would solve so incredibly much:

Edea- "In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her powers".

What could this mean? I see two options:

1 - If a Sorceress dies while she still has her Sorceress powers inside her, she will "sleep badly"(or whatever way you wish to put it).

2 - While a Sorceress has her Sorceress powers inside her, she cannot die, meaning that ultimately killing a Sorceress means the birth of a new Sorceress.

Who is it that starts SeeD? A Sorceress(Edea). She creates SeeD to kill any Sorceress that goes evil.Now, this could still mean that both options are possible.Because Edea feels strongly about not letting any child becoming a Sorceress(demonstrated in the scene where Ultimecia gives away her powers). If point 2 were true she could come along to every assasination, but if not she'd have to give her powers to a new girl to take up the task, which contradicts the scene at the Orphanage.

The latter however, is implied through Adel trying to find an heir, however that again could be because she feared death by murder(she was after all at war with the world), and not necessarily because she was getting too old.

Also:

When Adel was captured, she was never killed, she was sealed.Why? Was it because they wanted to do research(remember Dr. Odine) or was it perhaps because they COULDN'T kill her without creating a new Sorceress?

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 9:36:09 AM | Message DetailThe question about die in peace, I think that it simply means the manner of their passing. Remember Ultimecia wants nothing more than to control the sorceresses power in the time compressed world. Yet when she dies she doesn't horde the power she releases it to Edea. (Possible Paradox there, where did Ultimecia gain her powers in the first place?)

Firstly, if Rinoa were Ultimecia she could have other motives explaining that.Secondly, that is of course just another way if interpreting the game.

So that she dies peacefully, she simpyl disolves and her existence is gone. If she didn't do it this way perhaps she'd have suffered for a great length of time before she finally died?

Maybe, or maybe not. All a matter of choice of opinion there.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 9:37:57 AM | Message DetailMouseIX: Someone presented a picture of them but that was specifically created to make them look similar.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 9/14/2003 11:03:33 AM | Message DetailOne possibility of why Adel was seaaled instead of killed: It isn't Esthar's way.

I posted this in the other topic, but if you talk to one of the female rew members, she talks about how it is Esthar's way to contain and contol dangers in the world, rather than to get rid of them or keep them away. This could also apply to soreresses.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: rapap | Posted: 9/14/2003 11:20:10 AM | Message DetailBah! Apologies for the garbled post. What I meant to say was 'if you talk to one of the female rew members at Lunar Gate...'---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 1:12:31 PM | Message DetailYes, I remember that. But it could however be that this belief stems from Sorceress Adels defeat.

And phoenix: Sorry that my memory is not that good, but I was wondering if you could list some conversations, quotes or events showing that Laguna would in almost all circumstances(or would greatly prefer) not killing an enemy.

---"Don't be hasty"From: enemy of the public | Posted: 9/14/2003 2:07:49 PM | Message DetailWell I am only going by assumptions and ironically the only time he wanted to kill anyone was the esthar soldiers. He just seems like this man who is driven by the desire to love people and make friends of enemies, he doesn't seem like the kind of person who would coldly hunt blood needlessly---The closest thing to an FF7 Novel, read if you're a fan!http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1138642From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/14/2003 11:48:12 PM | Message DetailYes, that's what I thought. I knew my memeory couldn't be that bad.

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From: Pespy | Posted: 9/15/2003 3:01:53 AM | Message DetailUltemecia isnt rinoa. *listens to roars and cheers as Pespy solves the riddle* ^_^---PS2 | "Most gamers don't like pretty boys. Just like how pretty girls are hated by the ugly ones."From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/15/2003 7:29:56 AM | Message DetailWhy?

Why do your kind keep showing up?---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: TheHeroOfTime | Posted: 9/15/2003 3:50:13 PM | Message DetailHey sorry to budge in, but this is refering to what people in the other topic has said.....

It was somthing along the lines of, it has only been about 15-20 years in the future. This maybe so, some people have been saying that its really far in the future. I actually think its not that far in the future like 15-20 years. Now about "Rinoas" apperance. When Edea had her sorceres(sp) powers her physical apperance completly changed(got all the face stuff, diffrent hair, and what not), no how could that not happen to rinoa, givin enough time to change? as of now im not too sure on the subject, but I am leaning twords it is Rinoa.

If the team did not go into the future and kill ultimecia then they would still be in the normal time. say in a year or two(hell now if you want), Rinoa turns on the team and kills them, Whats stopping her from ruling the world? Nothing, except the past. But what she didnt know is the they could travel to the future, Because it didnt happen.There is only one way to figure this out, someone write squaresoft a letter asking what they intended. Maybe they wanted people to think about it, play the game over and over again, and get more addicted to the final fantasy series and buy the rest. Hell we may never know.

Well thats my 2 cents.

From: Pespy | Posted: 9/16/2003 1:48:10 AM | Message DetailHey can somebody please send me the first part of this topic to ben_gp89@hotmail.com---PS2 | "Most gamers don't like pretty boys. Just like how pretty girls are hated by the ugly ones."From: rapap | Posted: 9/16/2003 3:14:25 AM | Message DetailOh, came across a quote from Rinoa on disc 4. Can't remember if it was disussed already, but if you talk to her on the Ragnarok, she says something about how Ultimecia will eventually be born despite whatever happens. This implies that Ultimecia has not been born yet in the party's 'present' time. Will post the exact quote later. (Or if someone else can put it up that would be fine too)---

"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/16/2003 4:53:59 AM | Message DetailIt was somthing along the lines of, it has only been about 15-20 years in the future. This maybe so, some people have been saying that its really far in the future. I actually think its not that far in the future like 15-20 years. Now about "Rinoas" apperance. When Edea had her sorceres(sp) powers her physical apperance completly changed(got all the face stuff, diffrent hair, and what not), no how could that not happen to rinoa, givin enough time to change? as of now im not too sure on the subject, but I am leaning twords it is Rinoa.

There are greater changes in Rinoas change, but then again. it took longer time too.

Also about the timeline:

Ultimecia lives many generations in to the future. Since a generation is the difference in age between a father and his son, we can say that a generation is approx. 23-25 years.Many is a relative term, so take it as you will.

Pespy: Mail is being sent right now.

Oh, came across a quote from Rinoa on disc 4. Can't remember if it was disussed already, but if you talk to her on the Ragnarok, she says something about how Ultimecia will eventually be born despite whatever happens. This implies that Ultimecia has not been born yet in the party's 'present' time. Will post the exact quote later. (Or if someone else can put it up that would be fine too)

She says that no matter what they do, Ultimecia will still be born, and will still receive the powers from her older self via Rinoa. But of course, Rinoa is no fortune-teller.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/16/2003 10:07:13 AM | Message DetailRinoa says that based on what she knows and believes. At that point she wouldn't know she would become Ultimecia, so the quote doesn't matter.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/16/2003 11:01:25 AM | Message DetailSideswipe, I sent you a mail..

---"Don't be hasty"From: SeraphicRadiance007 | Posted: 9/16/2003 11:34:03 AM | Message DetailUmm... question.

If you all say that Ultimecia is Rinoa, then why the hell did Ultimecia leave Rinoa out

in space to die? If Rinoa died, then Ultimecia wouldn't exist in the future right?

And you can't say that sorceresses can predict the future, because they can't, so you can't say that Ultimecia knew that Squall was going to save Rinoa.---"What did you say!? A horse wiener!? Now THAT'S dangerous! Guys, don't let your guard down!!!" - LaharlFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/16/2003 11:44:25 AM | Message DetailActually, we CAN say Ultimecia knew.

If Ultimecia was Rinoa then she could have remembered being saved by Squall.

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From: rapap | Posted: 9/16/2003 11:58:19 AM | Message DetailTranslates to: I'll disregard this because while we can accept hints that point to Rinoa being Ultimecia, hints that point to Rinoa not being Ultimecia do not matter. Feh.

Edea and Rinoa learn about Ultimecia's plan while possessed by her. Rinoa learns about the backup oxygen supply from Squall when he 'possesses' her in space. It's not unlikely that Rinoa would find out that Ultimecia is born in the future under possession.

The quote does matter because it presents the possibility of Ultimecia actually being a sorceress that was born in the future. This is also a hint against the extended lifespan theory. But if you want to disregard it because you don't like what it hints at, fine. But don't be so quick to jump some people's throat for disregarding hints pointing towards Ultimecia=Rinoa.

This is unlrelated but I did some scans on the three 'Sorceress' forms you fight at the begining of disc 4, inluding the final worm form. All descriptions are the same. It presents an interesting look into Sorceress embodiement without powers being passed on:

'A sorceress from beyond time. Appeared due to Time Compression, but it is not very strong'

*note that this is not an exact quote. Going by memory here. ---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/16/2003 12:01:20 PM | Message Detail

I'm sorry, it's just that the Rinoa=Ultimecia points are much weaker in comparison to the other, so I have to go stronger against them.

What I was trying to do was that YOU already gave the hint pointing away from it, I was simply trying to show that it could still go both ways.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 9/16/2003 12:17:54 PM | Message DetailSo you're compensating argumentively? Is that really being neutral? :) j/k

Regarding Adel's successor. It doesn't make sense that Adel would retain a successor for fear of being murdered/killed/assaainated. Any of those situations carries the risk of her powers being embodied in the wrong person, similar to what happens to Rinoa in disc 2. Unless the successor was attached to Adel's hip and that would be asinine, leaving the successor completely vulnerable to an attack as well.

It makes much more sense that Adel wanted an apprentice to train and eventually pass her powers onto to continue the rule of Esther. This strongly implies that sorceresses do not have an extended lifespan.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: SeraphicRadiance007 | Posted: 9/16/2003 4:52:53 PM | Message DetailIf Ultimecia was Rinoa then she could have remembered being saved by Squall.

Remembering if Squall saved her or not is irrelevant in this matter. If Squall had not saved her, she would've killed herself. Ultimecia could have remembered, yes, but her returning to the past nullifies ANY knowledge she had of her future. Why? Because the slightest change in the past can alter the future, as you already know.

Another question, why does Ultimecia hate SeeD then? If she REMEMBERED (like you said), when she was Rinoa, she was accepted amongst the SeeD. Rinoa DID think that she was an outcast (story scene in Trabia), but then realized that she'd fight with them to the very end and the entire group accepted her as one of them (when you rescued her from the Sorcress Memorial).

If I remembered correctly, what you guys think drove Rinoa into her evil ways (turning into Ultimecia), was losing Squall right? How did she lose Squall? No one knows that. This entire argument is based on opinion, and no solid evidence.

Comparing Rinoa and Ultimecia is just fantasy. I know, this is a video game, but I mean fantasy within a fantasy game. 0_o

Meaning, people are making up their own story and saying that it's proven fact just because it wasn't clarified in the game.

Oh! One more thing that just came to my attention! Ultimecia also tried to kill Rinoa during the parade in Deling right? If Ultimecia remembered (through Rinoa; as you all claim she did), why did she (Ultimecia) not know about the assassination plan?

Why did she offer Rinoa as a 'sacrifice'? She may have remembered Squall and Irvine saving her, but that mean that she would have known about the plan as well. And it was CLEARLY shown that she was oblivious to the plan when she was trapped in the gates.

So, A) Ultimecia is a pretty pathetic sorceress for not taking advantage of knowing her enemies' plan. or B) Ultimecia isn't Rinoa.

There was some other strong evidence I ran into the other day about this, but it must've slipped my mind at the moment. I'll be back when I remember it.

-Ja!---"What did you say!? A horse wiener!? Now THAT'S dangerous! Guys, don't let your guard down!!!" - LaharlFrom: SeraphicRadiance007 | Posted: 9/16/2003 4:59:34 PM | Message DetailQuoting myself here... because I know you're going to say this...

How did she lose Squall? No one knows that.

Okies, you're probably going to say the 'extended-life' theory correct? Well, Matron aged quite a bit from when she accepted her powers from Ultimecia while working in the orphanage, to her present day status as Edea wouldn't you agree?

As for Adel, there is no way in hell she's human. I mean like, she's what... 12 feet tall. And she was kept in some cryo-chamber since the last time she was in power, so her physical attributes probably wouldn't have changed much.---"What did you say!? A horse wiener!? Now THAT'S dangerous! Guys, don't let your guard down!!!" - LaharlFrom: rapap | Posted: 9/16/2003 6:37:44 PM | Message DetailRegarding the Delig City Parade. Edea (possessed by Ultimecia) says that she wants to end the ceremony with a sacrifice. Notice how she never directly names Rinoa as the sacrifice. One could say the intended sacrifice were the two Iguions. Not that I believe that, but it's something to think about.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: rapap | Posted: 9/16/2003 9:11:16 PM | Message DetailOh yes, regarding Adel. She is quite in fact human. Laguna mentions this in disc 3 if you ask him what he is doing there when you are first briefed on the mission.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/17/2003 5:33:37 AM | Message DetailRemembering if Squall saved her or not is irrelevant in this matter. If Squall had not saved her, she would've killed herself. Ultimecia could have remembered, yes, but her returning to the past nullifies ANY knowledge she had of her future. Why? Because the slightest change in the past can alter the future, as you already know.

No,no,no,no! You are using YOUR view on time as universal truth! Depending on what view you have on time she still could remember.

Another question, why does Ultimecia hate SeeD then? If she REMEMBERED (like you said), when she was Rinoa, she was accepted amongst the SeeD. Rinoa DID think that she was an outcast (story scene in Trabia), but then realized that she'd fight with them to the very end and the entire group accepted her as one of them (when you rescued her from the Sorcress Memorial).

GF Usage, Insanity, a mix of both, pick either.

If I remembered correctly, what you guys think drove Rinoa into her evil ways (turning into Ultimecia), was losing Squall right? How did she lose Squall? No one knows that. This entire argument is based on opinion, and no solid evidence.

Ok, I'm going to say thos one last time, but afterwards I'll ignore any comments saying things like this, because there's a limit to how many times I can be bothered to repeat something:

There is no proof that shows Rinoa and Ultimecia as the same person. There is only opinions, based on arguments, based on interpretations of in-game events.We are trying to show that both ways are possible, not that one way is right and the other wrong.

Comparing Rinoa and Ultimecia is just fantasy. I know, this is a video game, but I mean fantasy within a fantasy game. 0_o

Meaning, people are making up their own story and saying that it's proven fact just because it wasn't clarified in the game.

See above.

Oh! One more thing that just came to my attention! Ultimecia also tried to kill Rinoa during the parade in Deling right? If Ultimecia remembered (through Rinoa; as you all claim she did), why did she (Ultimecia) not know about the assassination plan? Why did she offer Rinoa as a 'sacrifice'? She may have remembered Squall and Irvine saving her, but that mean that she would have known about the plan as well. And it was CLEARLY shown that she was oblivious to the plan when she was trapped in the gates.

Firstly, I'd like to make it clear that her remembering the past is not the only option, there are other options presented in this topic(find them yourself).

Secondly, how was it clearly shown? All I remember was Edea getting quickly out of her chair, but I don't remember the look on her face.Either way, as I said, memory of the past is not the only option.

So, A) Ultimecia is a pretty pathetic sorceress for not taking advantage of knowing her enemies' plan. or B) Ultimecia isn't Rinoa.

Or, there are other possibilities. Read above.

Okies, you're probably going to say the 'extended-life' theory correct? Well, Matron aged quite a bit from when she accepted her powers from Ultimecia while working in the orphanage, to her present day status as Edea wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I agree, but what does that have to do with anything?

Oh yes, regarding Adel. She is quite in fact human. Laguna mentions this in disc 3 if you ask him what he is doing there when you are first briefed on the mission.

Exactly. She is as human as Edea.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/17/2003 7:18:40 AM | Message DetailErm, sorry about one thing. I got a bit muddled up:

Okies, you're probably going to say the 'extended-life' theory correct? Well, Matron aged quite a bit from when she accepted her powers from Ultimecia while working in the orphanage, to her present day status as Edea wouldn't you agree?

I'm assuming you mean look-wise. Well I disagree. Take a look at her at the Orphanage scene and then in the ending FMV.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 9/17/2003 8:48:24 AM | Message DetailEdea doesn' have to look like she significantly aged. It was only 12 years since she took on Ultimecia's powers. If she was in her early to mid twenties at that time, that makes her anywhere from mid to late thirties by the final FMV. Some women can look like they haven't aged much if at all during that span.

Something interesting to note, while it becomes clear that Edea is no longer a sorceress in disc 3, it is only after Time Compression and Ultimecia's defeat that she 'reverts' back to her Matron appearance.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/17/2003 2:10:50 PM | Message Detail

once again I didn't get the FRICKIN EMAIL!!!

Screw hotmail!

I have an aol account that I never use:

sideswipezulu@aol.com---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/18/2003 6:35:44 AM | Message DetailErm, sorry about that. I got a bit confused and resent the previous topic >_>

I'll send my part of the FAQ now though.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/18/2003 7:41:38 AM | Message DetailI hate AOL, but it worked.

Going through that last topic . . . man, all those bakas who came in, said it wasn't true, and left. Guy could go crazy ftom that.

Amazing to see how far this has come.

1.63 fricking megabytes equals one helluva topic. I want to thank all the pro and con people for helping it along. Then I want to damn all the people who came in for one post just to piss the pro people off.

Bahaumut, next time send the thing in a .DOC format, as notepad has this ting where is cuts off paragrahs and makes them into seperate lines. I really don't want to go through and mess with reformatting.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/18/2003 12:08:23 PM | Message DetailSure thing, I'll send it again later, in Word.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SeraphicRadiance007 | Posted: 9/19/2003 2:48:46 AM | Message DetailGF Usage, Insanity, a mix of both, pick either.

Bingo. I was hoping you would come up with that first. So Ultimecia couldn't have remembered. It's not like it's a selective memory loss problem. Any past memory is erased. You dug yourself in that one.

A. You say Ultimecia CAN remember, but she couldn't remember about the assassination plan due to "GF Usage, Insanity, a mix of both, pick either."

B. You say Ultimecia CANNOT remember, and thus wouldn't know if Squall will save Rinoa in space or not.

Either way, it points towards Rinoa =/= Ultimecia. That's what I'm trying to do. You claim that it can go either way, I claim it's ludicrous. Just because Ultimecia's identity wasn't completely filled... doesn't mean that you can combine her with a similar character.

I know that her remembering her past isn't the only option, but once it's proven, many of those other theories go down the drain as well. Like... "why the hell would she kill herself in the past?"---"What did you say!? A horse wiener!? Now THAT'S dangerous! Guys, don't let your guard down!!!" - LaharlFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/19/2003 6:46:57 AM | Message DetailA. You say Ultimecia CAN remember, but she couldn't remember about the assassination plan due to "GF Usage, Insanity, a mix of both, pick either."

Ok, listen here. Since it's obvious you didn't take my advice and read this topic I'll have to explain the non-insanity theorem.

If a Sorceress has prolonged/unlimited lifespan, Rinoa could live far into the future. Now, she is a Sorceress, most likely the greatest of her time. She is living in a world where Sorceresses are hated by the people. In a world where not one, not two, but THREE Sorceresses have brought war, death and destruction to the world.In a world where her friends, family and most importantly, her Knight has died infront of her eyes.This slowly causes her to change. In the end, she realizes that she has changed into Ultimecia.Still having her memory intact, she realizes that unless she plays out the events in the game, she and Squall will never meet.I'm sure you can guess the rest.

B. You say Ultimecia CANNOT remember, and thus wouldn't know if Squall will save Rinoa in space or not.

If she cannot remember, she wouldn't remember Rinoa being her past self either, so why should she stop twice to think about throwing her into space?

Although in reality, it's the Insanity Theorem that is used besides the one mentioned above. And when she's insane, well, complaining why she doesn't act logically and reasonably is rather pointless, no?

You claim that it can go either way, I claim it's ludicrous. Just because Ultimecia's identity wasn't completely filled... doesn't mean that you can combine her with a similar character.

I don't see why not. Perhaps you like the idea of Ultimecia having no personality, but I'm sure many disagree with that.

I know that her remembering her past isn't the only option, but once it's proven, many of those other theories go down the drain as well. Like... "why the hell would she kill herself in the past?"

Firstly, if I read this right, then you say that if it was proven that Ultimecia was Rinoa who remembers her past, then that would put the other theories down the drain. Well of course it would, we would then have one true theory!If I read you wrongly, resort to the theory stated above.

Run me down in a corner? Nay, you won't manage that so easily.

---"Don't be hasty"From: enemy of the public | Posted: 9/20/2003 12:37:50 AM | Message Detailhttp://www.angelfire.com/games4/fantasyeight/rinoaulty.html

This link proves it once and for all, towards the bottom there is an analysis from Square that says 'Rinoa is not Ultimecia'---The closest thing to an FF7 Novel, read if you're a fan!http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1138642From: Remnant | Posted: 9/20/2003 12:55:15 AM | Message Detail"Right away, TK asked me if I would contact my friend at Square, which I did, and this is what she had to say regarding this topic:"

I don't know, but it's like saying "I have a friend in Square who says, Zell likes Squall"....

---"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." From: rapap | Posted: 9/20/2003 1:08:46 AM | Message DetailIgnoring the verification of the 'source' at Square, the replies made to the 'facts' of the essay are actually well supported in the game. However, the essay is not the sole argument for the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory.

A good starting point for anyone new to this topic is to determine whether or not they believe sorceresses have extended lifespans. The whole theory hinges on this decision because Rinoa has to live long enough to become Ultimecia (according to Sir Bahamut a minimum of 36 years).

For me personally, I do not yet believe that sorceresses have extended lifespans and therefore find it difficult to accept the theory as a whole. But it's up to each person to decide what they believe.

Wondering if anyone has any comments regarding my arguments of Adel's successor. *points a few pages back*---

"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/20/2003 1:51:38 AM | Message DetailThis link proves it once and for all, towards the bottom there is an analysis from Square that says 'Rinoa is not Ultimecia'

You have a lot to learn, sorry to say it. This is the worst "proof" I ever saw.

A good starting point for anyone new to this topic is to determine whether or not they believe sorceresses have extended lifespans. The whole theory hinges on this decision because Rinoa has to live long enough to become Ultimecia (according to Sir Bahamut a minimum of 36 years).

Please take note that this is the absolute minimum.This number comes from the fact that a Generation is the difference in years between a father and a son.So anything between 18(used here) and 25 are good approximates.

Now 2 Generations would be the absolute minimum for "Many generations", leaving us with an absolute minimum of 36.

And sorry, rapap, didn't see that. Busy finishing off SeraphicRadiance.

Regarding Adel's successor. It doesn't make sense that Adel would retain a successor for fear of being murdered/killed/assaainated. Any of those situations carries the risk of her powers being embodied in the wrong person, similar to what happens to Rinoa in disc 2. Unless the successor was attached to Adel's hip and that would be asinine, leaving the successor completely vulnerable to an attack as well.

You say that if she were say, shot, and given a mortal wound, the risk is that ANY random girl nearby could get her powers. I disagree. The only Sorceress we see that does not control the giving of her powers, is Adel, but she was possessed by Ultimecia.The same thing with Adel when you kill. Possessed by Ultimecia, she gives her powers to Rinoa so that Time Compression can be completed.This shows that there is at least no proof that shows that a Sorceress can't decide who to give her powers to.Personally, it is my belief, that whoever Ultimecia really is, she very purposefully gives her powers to Edea, to make sure she becomes a Sorceress again.However, this does not prove that a Sorceress can decide who to give her powers to, so in the end, it is still possible for Adel to be shot, and then be able to walk over to Ellone without first giving away her powers.

This strongly implies that sorceresses do not have an extended lifespan.

Now although I will use the above statement as an argument, it is note taking into account that we don't know how old Adel is. She could be old enough to be fearing death by age soon. Although this is a moot point, and you may ignore it if you will, as I am fully aware of the "flaws".

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From: rapap | Posted: 9/20/2003 2:25:50 AM | Message Detail*Points to Edea at the end of disc 2*

Edea certainly does not control Rinoa reicieving her powers at that time. Upon recieving a (near) mortal wound at the hands of the party, her powers are transfered to the nearby Rinoa.

*Points to the orphanage during the ending*

Edea volunteers herself to take on Ultimecia's powers to protect any of the children (note that she doesn't specify just the girls) from becoming a soceress, implying that anyone within proximity of a dying soreress carries the risk of taking on their powers.*makes mental note to view the ending again to verify*

Interesting, just kind of noticed that there is no real evidence that males cannot be sorceress (or rather embody soreress powers), just like for the extended lifespan theory. Heh.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/20/2003 2:43:56 AM | Message Detail*Points to Edea at the end of disc 2*

Edea certainly does not control Rinoa reicieving her powers at that time. Upon recieving a (near) mortal wound at the hands of the party, her powers are transfered to the nearby Rinoa.

*points to Ultimecia possessing Edea*

Edea does not control it, proved by the fact that she doesn't realize she gave away her powrs until later. Now, could it not be that Ultimecia gave away her powers to Rinoa on purpose, and that it was not Edea giving her powers to the nearest person?

*Points to the orphanage during the ending*

Edea volunteers herself to take on Ultimecia's powers to protect any of the children (note that she doesn't specify just the girls) from becoming a soceress, implying that anyone within proximity of a dying soreress carries the risk of taking on their powers.*makes mental note to view the ending again to verify*

*points to Ultimecia knowing that if she doesn't give her powers to Edea she would never become a Sorceress*

On another note, of all the places she could have gone to, to transfer her powers, she doesn't go to a big city which would be littered with people to transfer it to, she goes to a tiny little Orphanage. Did she perhaps want to transfer to a child, or perhaps she wanted the above reason?

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/20/2003 2:46:19 AM | Message DetailSideswipe: Did you receive my email? I sent it to the AOL account.

---"Don't be hasty"From: enemy of the public | Posted: 9/20/2003 4:14:18 AM | Message DetailYou have a lot to learn, sorry to say it. This is the worst "proof" I ever saw.

Yes sir, I'll hand in my assignment by tuesday, you ain't my teacher Bahamut so drop the patronising tone. You have been immersed in this discussion for too long and it has gone to your head, slow down!

For a start the proof points out how the extended lives of sorceresses has been countered due to the whole assassination mission. It also removes the possibility of the Griever GF.

Also let me add some thoughts of my own about this ageing process. It seems to cling far too much to the character Edea, you are not able to confirm it by cross referencing with every other sorceress who has lived. All the argument I have seen so far is the relationship between Edea and Cid. But have you people never heard of women dating and marrying men that can be anything up to 10 years older than them? Sometimes even older? Cid could very well be 60 years old, Edea on the other hand maybe merely 45, and remember this age is not that old!---The closest thing to an FF7 Novel, read if you're a fan!http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1138642From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/20/2003 4:54:26 AM | Message DetailYes sir, I'll hand in my assignment by tuesday, you ain't my teacher Bahamut so drop the patronising tone. You have been immersed in this discussion for too long and it has gone to your head, slow down!

Sorry, it's just that I thought that seeing you have been immersed in the FF7 discussion, I figured you would at least see the idiocy of some bloke on the net saying he has a friend at Square. Sorry again though, you're probably right, I have been here too long. I'm terribly sorry, I only now see the stupidity of what I wrote.

For a start the proof points out how the extended lives of sorceresses has been countered due to the whole assassination mission. It also removes the possibility of

the Griever GF.

No it doesn't. It shows that a Sorceress can be killed like a normal person(which I would think was made obvious to anyone playing the game seeing you do kill 2 Sorceresses and attempt to kill a third).It also does not counter the point made that it could be that a Sorceress can't die until she's given away her powers(notice how both Adel and Ultimecia give away powers before dying).It also does not prove that a Sorceress can't live long.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/20/2003 4:39:12 PM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/20/2003 8:14:08 PM | Message DetailEnemy of the public, you seem to be more out of line than Bahamut. That says a lot.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: SeraphicRadiance007 | Posted: 9/21/2003 12:35:09 AM | Message Detail*sigh*... so much chaos...

You guys do actually know that the ORIGINAL topic was created as a joke right? Some few months ago. It was then forgotten, and branded a 'stupid topic'...

Then some guy revives it by creating another thread, and SARCASTICALLY says that Rinoa = Ultimecia. Then some gulliable people jump on the band wagon and believe such nonsense.

And now we're here. Surrounded by arrogance. If Square intended for us to think that Ultimecia is Rinoa, then they would've thrown more 'clues/facts' into the story. (Like the ones where Laguna = Squall's father). But there aren't any... why? BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE.

I know the sole purpose of this thread is to perceive the 'possibilities' of Rinoa = Ultimecia. But that's the thing, why try to fight to prove a theory that's rediculously stupid?

I'm sorry, I had a bad day... if you took offense to that, my apologies...---"What did you say!? A horse wiener!? Now THAT'S dangerous! Guys, don't let your guard down!!!" - LaharlFrom: Pespy | Posted: 9/21/2003 1:08:37 AM | Message DetailI have here with me a great website on the Rinoa - Ultimecia debate. It has quite good arguements...Read this:http://www.angelfire.com/games4/fantasyeight/rinoaulty.html---PS2 | "Most gamers don't like pretty boys. Just like how pretty girls are hated by the

ugly ones."From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/21/2003 1:42:32 AM | Message DetailYou guys do actually know that the ORIGINAL topic was created as a joke right? Some few months ago. It was then forgotten, and branded a 'stupid topic'...

Erm, you call us arrogant, but you're the arrogant one here. This discussion was not started as a joke a few months ago, it was started a few years ago, and I doubt it was as a joke.

And now we're here. Surrounded by arrogance. If Square intended for us to think that Ultimecia is Rinoa, then they would've thrown more 'clues/facts' into the story. (Like the ones where Laguna = Squall's father). But there aren't any... why? BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE.

Actually, I agree here, mostly. If someone were to ask me now what clues there are that hint towards Rinoa being Ultimecia, I would have to write up a few images during Squalls nightmare(not sure of one of them was from opening sequence but anyway).Of course, we might be missing something, but anyway.

I have here with me a great website on the Rinoa - Ultimecia debate. It has quite good arguements...Read this:http://www.angelfire.com/games4/fantasyeight/rinoaulty.html

Yes, we have read this one before. Basically, the only argument that is backed up by ingame information is that aSorceress can be killed like a normal being(which one would think anyone would get seeing as you do kill 2 and attemtp tp kill a third). It howevers, does not disprove the fact that a Sorceress may be able to live long.

---"Don't be hasty"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: shroudedg | Posted: 9/21/2003 1:52:18 AM | Message DetailThere is no proof that shows Rinoa and Ultimecia as the same person. There is only opinions, based on arguments, based on interpretations of in-game events.We are trying to show that both ways are possible, not that one way is right and the other wrong.

Didn't even know that this topic is still going on,but I did get a glimpse of this statement...Hard to miss since it's all in bold and all...but it looks to me, that the plot of this game...is being "manipulated" just to appease both sides in this argument....

Now I'm not sure what is the goal of this topic, forgive the ignorance and all...but what is the goal of this debate??

To get closer to the game's intended truth as much as possible??

or

To present both sides of the argument at it's best, to let the gamers decide their own conclusion??

If it's the latter, then this post is irrelevant then...

---I'm good in bed------I could sleep for dayswww.geocities.com/finalfantasyviilove/Main.htmFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/21/2003 1:59:09 AM | Message DetailThe latter.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/22/2003 9:21:15 AM | Message DetailThen some guy revives it by creating another thread, and SARCASTICALLY says that Rinoa = Ultimecia. Then some gulliable people jump on the band wagon and believe such nonsense.

I was being sarcastic? And you're implying that posters such as The Onion Knight, Geasha, Sir Bahamut, and others are gullible fools?

And now we're here. Surrounded by arrogance. If Square intended for us to think that Ultimecia is Rinoa, then they would've thrown more 'clues/facts' into the story. (Like the ones where Laguna = Squall's father). But there aren't any... why? BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE.

Surrounded by arrogance? Temptation to mod rising . . .We've been throwing out and arguing clues and hints for the longest time. Read through that previous 500 posts before joining in.

I'm sorry, I had a bad day... if you took offense to that, my apologies...

Then you shouldn't have taken it out here. Don't even bother going on GameFAQs if all you're going to do is take out your frustrations on people you perceive to be wasting their time on something you believe is idiotic.

To get closer to the game's intended truth as much as possible??

or

To present both sides of the argument at it's best, to let the gamers decide their own conclusion??

As Bahamut said, the latter. Originally I just wanted to see what others thought of the theory since I had taken a liking to it. The debate grew on its own.

Holy cow, when was the last time I made a post like this?---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: rapap | Posted: 9/22/2003 9:47:40 AM | Message Detail*views active posts*

The Ultimecia's Identity topic is still floating around, Sir Bahamut. If you want to post your comment there, I'll reply to it since it's kind of off topic here.

I feel like compiling a list of facts about Ultimecia, if anyone is interested. It might be good place to start thinking of things. Separating fact from supposition can help people form their own opinion. I'm probably asking for trouble but...

1) She is a sorceress

2) She comes from many generations in the future, an absolute minimum of 36 years.

3) She wants to acchieve Time Compression. And uses Machine Junction Ellone to try do so. But the machine will not allow her to travel far back enough in time to start the process of Time Compression. She uses Machine Junction Ellone to posses a sorceress in the past (Edea) to search for the person whose powers the machine is named after (Ellone). The purpose to make Ellone far enough in the past to start Time Compression.

4) She hates SeeD.

That's all for me at the moment. Feel free to add or correct anything.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/22/2003 10:38:01 AM | Message DetailThe Ultimecia's Identity topic is still floating around, Sir Bahamut. If you want to post your comment there, I'll reply to it since it's kind of off topic here.

Heh, must have missed it. I found it now though, please do reply.

5) She has black wings(worth taking into account).

6) Achieving Time Compression will give her the powers of all Sorceresses through time.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 9/22/2003 11:10:54 AM | Message Detail6) Actually in the Tutorial it says that Time Compression may allow sorceress powers

from different generations to be embodied in to soreress, giving them great power. Emphasis on the word 'may'. While Ultimecia acchieving that power through Time Compression is certainly a good possibility, I hesitate to call it fact.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/22/2003 11:14:39 AM | Message DetailAh, it says "May".

Still, why should even the slightest chance be possible?

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/22/2003 8:16:44 PM | Message DetailI love how the game throws us for loops by using words like "may."

It just adds to the disbelief.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: AznDemonLord | Posted: 9/22/2003 11:00:55 PM | Message DetailI'm not sure if the theory of Edea/Ultimecia not killing Squall was cleared yet, but this is my theory,

Edea didn't kill Squall with the Ice Javelin was because Ultimecia/Rinoa remembered Squall and held back a little. If possible the real Edea held back as well because if Ultimecia/Rinoa held back because of the recognition of Squall, some control might be restored to the real Edea, allowing her to hold back.

Greiver Theory,I read somewhere that there is an entity in the Griever necklace Squall wears. Griever, is full of pain and sadness. When Squall dies, Rinoa takes the necklace and wears it, probably becoming a GF, junctioning it without knowing or on purpose because of her love for Squall. As time passed she eventually forgets and becomes evil.---"I shall have my revenge." - HotsumaFrom: forweg | Posted: 9/23/2003 12:31:46 AM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/23/2003 4:50:03 AM | Message DetailJust a comment on that Griever Theory:

But what does Ultimecia means when she says she will draw the GF? She could mean Draw it from the neclace but that sounds a bit dodgy to me.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/23/2003 8:25:09 AM | Message DetailI think I did the bit on Disc 1's end twice during this topic.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/24/2003 9:23:20 AM | Message DetailJust something slightly off-topic that nobody mentioned. About Edea's age...

To me, it seems like Sorceresses ARE able of choosing whether they are going to age or not(if they have the ability, that is). Remember? Edea was ALREADY a Sorceress when she received Ultimecia's powers. She became a Sorceress when she was 3 or 4 years old. Yet, she can be seen as a woman in the game.

This could disprove the theory, BUT... Edea also hasn't changed a bit between the time she received Ultimecia's powers and the time we see her at the party. Yes, I know that some women don't change that much, BUT we are talking about a time period of 13-14 years more or less... And it impossible for a female to remain the SAME after 14 years. Yes, they might be similar but with differences, but Edea is COMPLETELY identical to her past self.

So, what I get from those in-game facts, is that a Sorceress has the ability to choose when to stop aging... And as I said before, that's if they REALLY are able of not aging...From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/24/2003 3:56:17 PM | Message DetailPerhaps when she met Cid, and married him, she chose to stay young for him.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/24/2003 6:05:56 PM | Message DetailSpeculation based on your theory, of course.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/24/2003 7:00:34 PM | Message Detail>>Perhaps when she met Cid, and married him, she chose to stay young for him.

Yes, that could be a possibility, why not?From: rapap | Posted: 9/25/2003 7:29:18 AM | Message DetailThe span between Edea recieving Ultimecia's powers and 'present day' in the game is 13 years. It is very possible for Edea to still look youthful especially if she recieved Ultimecia's powers in her early 20s.

Who ever said she looked the same? What is there to compare? Her polygon sprite and a cgi presented in the movie at the end of the game. There is nothing to base Edea

looking the same or not.

If you think it's impossible (<---be very careful using that word) that a person can age well between their 20s and 30s, then you need to get out more.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Matrix310 | Posted: 9/25/2003 4:06:17 PM | Message Detailabout the Greiver thing, think about when you draw a GF you draw it straight from someone, Greiver is teh most pwerful GF (but only in Squall's mind) so she probably jsut drew it from Squall, his thoughts and all thatFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 9/25/2003 6:17:29 PM | Message DetailWe have discussed that, yes.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: helloi | Posted: 9/26/2003 6:42:29 AM | Message DetailLet's suppose Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same person. Let's suppose Ultimecia had defeated Squall and company.She would have either killed them or made them her slaves in another dimension. If she did that, Rinoa would not have the chance to become Ultimecia and Ulticmecia would not exist. It would create too many paradoxes.---"Our tickets to the future are blank." -RemJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 9/26/2003 6:57:20 AM | Message DetailOf course what you said you can't be true.

You can't suppose events that don't happen. In the game, the party DOES beat Ultimecia, so arguing that IF she had beaten the party would create too many paradoxes is stupid.

---"Don't be hasty"From: yasai | Posted: 9/26/2003 11:31:25 AM | Message DetailUltimecia gave her powers to Edea, who gave them to Rinoa, if she was Ultimecia, that would be a paradox, but hey, I guess it is impossible to create a "time travel (well, not travel, you know what I mean)" without creating a paradoxFrom: jesusfreakj103 | Posted: 9/26/2003 11:44:49 AM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: lindblum resident | Posted: 9/26/2003 4:26:04 PM | Message Detail>>If you think it's impossible (<---be very careful using that word) that a person can age well between their 20s and 30s, then you need to get out more.

Of course I know that it is possible. And I didn't try to do a simple comparing of a CG image and a polygon model.

All I said was that even without having seen how Edea pretty much looked like, most people would find her CG "model" very young. Especially after knowing that she is around 30+. Just look when the camera zooms on her. She seems ALMOST as young as Rinoa.From: rapap | Posted: 9/26/2003 6:18:59 PM | Message DetailThank you.

'Edea looks young for her age in the final CG movies'

Does not mean:

'Edea never aged since she took on Ultimecia's powers 13 years ago'

So you can't come to the conclusion:

'Sorceresses don't age'

That's the point I was trying to make.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Macalania woods | Posted: 9/26/2003 8:08:18 PM | Message DetailEh.What do you guys feel about each theory?I mean in terms of game enjoyment, which theory would you prefer to believe.To me "Rinoa = Ulty" is just utterly depressing.I wonder if that was the intended concept, then what sick, twisted mind ever came up with such an Idea.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/2/2003 11:46:05 AM | Message DetailDead, again.

We seem to hit dryspells every 50 posts or so.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/5/2003 9:59:29 PM | Message DetailThree day bump.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/11/2003 7:26:21 AM | Message DetailI suppose I should save it again.

Bahamut, I DID recieve your section of the FAQ. Good show.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/

Number of cookies: 1From: Nakar Gabab | Posted: 10/14/2003 2:15:48 PM | Message DetailTo me "Rinoa = Ulty" is just utterly depressing.I wonder if that was the intended concept, then what sick, twisted mind ever came up with such an Idea.

No, you've hit the nail right on the head. Thematically, it actually would be VERY appropriate for the game, even though it is, as you said, "utterly depressing."

What has FF8 always been about, according to Square themselves? Love. If indeed Rinoa is Ultimecia (and again, this is IF, I have no informed opinion either way), if we assume that to be true for a moment... why might she do the things she does? Could it be, perhaps, that she has for one reason or another come to feel betrayed by love?

Looking at it that way, it's entirely possible that she views Time Compression as necessary for several reasons. These have been articulated before, but let me just summarize as I understand them:

1) Betrayed (in her mind) for whatever reason, Rinoa/Ultimecia wants to ensure she will never be betrayed again. So she attempts Time Compression such that she will be eternally alone, completely free of the risk of love and loss.

It's kind of iffy, but it's a thought I've seen passed around plenty of times (including here before, IIRC). In short, if she doesn't just want power (which she could want whether or not she's Rinoa, and whether or not she remembers anything), she could want solitude and "security." Compressed time offers no risks, no dangers, and no lies. Only her, forever. In a way though, she could want this even if she weren't Rinoa, but had a similar experience; in that sense, Ultimecia and Rinoa would be THEMATICALLY similar, but Rinoa knows that love has its bumps but ultimately is worthwhile, where Ultimecia had an experience that led her to a different conclusion. That's very vague because my evidence is vague on this topic, since it's been a little while for me. Anyway, it's a little depressing, but thematically it works with what Square stated the game was about.

Now here's a mindbender I've also heard elsewhere (I'm not taking credit for these, just re-presenting them).

2) Time Compression will unite her with Squall. Essentially the entire goal of Ultimecia, if she's Rinoa, is specifically TO meet Squall and fall in love. Whether she loses him tragically or not, whatever happens after the ending, doesn't matter. Because, in short, Ultimecia's motivations are not what everyone thinks they are. If Rinoa is Ultimecia, it's also POSSIBLE (though by no means certain) that she knows she will fail to achieve full Time Compression, that she will be defeated by Squall and the others, that she will pass on her powers to Edea, that Rinoa will first meet and then later be reunited with Squall.

Of course, for this (#2) to be true you'd almost have to conclude that Ultimecia's not evil at all, which probably raises huge red flags. If she's not evil and just wants to ensure she'll fall in love, why in the world would she do so many evil things? It

would be a tidy and interesting theory were it true (which I have no idea about), but it would also cast the villain of the game in an entirely different light, and make little sense of her actions. I would argue it MIGHT be true IF Rinoa/Ultimecia is selfish enough to put love ahead of the knowledge of the terrible things her future self would cause, just to ensure she would be able to experience it. That's understandable (people in love can do all sorts of selfish AND selfless things), but not necessarily right. It would kind of put a bittersweet taste on things: Yes, it's a nice happy ending, but was all that pain worth it so that two people could fall in love? An excellent conclusion and a very mature ending, IMO, but there's no way to specifically conclude that it is so. It also requires us to believe Ultimecia was lying about her motivations and could fool Edea into believing the false ones while she controlled her. Sketchy, I admit.----NakarJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Nakar Gabab | Posted: 10/14/2003 2:16:11 PM | Message DetailMy point in this long and probably incorrect rambling is that there is no thematic prohibition against Rinoa being Ultimecia, but there's no thematic necessity for it either. I could argue two ways that there is a love-related motivation behind Ultimecia's actions REGARDLESS OF WHO SHE REALLY IS. If she is Rinoa, though, we can understand it based on what we see Rinoa go through. If she's not, then can't really know for sure why she would have that motivation, nor if she actually does. However, I would argue (and I think many would agree) that if one of these theories about Ultimecia's identity (see that other topic I guess) is true, it may perhaps cast the villain's motivations more in line with the general theme of the game, which is love. However, Ultimecia does NOT need to be Rinoa for that thematic conclusion to be drawn, but it's easier to give a Rinoa/Ultimecia a motivation besides power (which seems less than satisfactory given that the game is not really about that) than it is to give a pure-Ultimecia that motivation.

In short, it's wishful thinking on the moral of the story and what it all really means, and I think the U=R argument is attractive to people who are dissatisfied with Ultimecia as a villain and want to bring her actions more in line with the game's theme (i.e. she has more on her mind than power, be that spite, grief, love, loss, or whatever). I believe, personally, that this would in fact be a better way to look at it, but maybe Square didn't write it that way. Maybe they did. We'll never know. Based on what we have to go on, though, the theory that Rinoa is Ultimecia creates an attractive template by which we can squabble about details but generally agree that she's not just trying to compress time to destroy the world or become God or whatever lame motivation far too many FF villains have. We're humanizing Ultimecia (not that this is necessarily a bad thing, just that it might not have been Square's intent).

This is mostly just to clear up the paradox or why-would-Ultimecia-do-that arguments. Maybe she (if she is Rinoa) sees it as an inevitability that will allow her to

stay in love in her past, and knows it won't be problematic. Or maybe she's not the same person so there can't be a paradox or risk to her actions. Either would be thematically acceptable, though the = case is perhaps stronger than the != case on that level. But not necessarily more true because of that.----NakarFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/15/2003 5:53:33 AM | Message DetailI agree completely. Excellent "recap", so to speak. You made clear our motives for this discussion, and good ones too. Excellent!By the way, I was the one who presented the second theory there ;)))

Anyway, your two posts, along with the fact that I, along with others here, have been able to show that it is not impossible for them to be the same person, I'm officially leaving this discussion. Perhaps I'll return if it flames up again later, but now for a good while anyway. It's been fun.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/15/2003 7:24:13 AM | Message DetailUntil next time, Bahamut.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Agent0009ng | Posted: 10/15/2003 9:30:42 AM | Message Detailuhm...did I miss something?---I said I wanted medics in here, not vikings!From: Perfect Xero | Posted: 10/15/2003 9:44:45 AM | Message DetailI've got a question, if Ultimecia is Rinoa, then wouldn't one of them cease to exist under time compression? It's been a long time since I beat the game, but I seem to remember there being a big deal made about there being only one version of each person during TC. So if that follows, then shouldn't Rinoa have been 'missing' during disc 4?From: Shivani | Posted: 10/16/2003 11:54:14 AM | Message Detail"1) Betrayed (in her mind) for whatever reason, Rinoa/Ultimecia wants to ensure she will never be betrayed again. So she attempts Time Compression such that she will be eternally alone, completely free of the risk of love and loss."

A short comment on this -- this is an interesting take, but still, you could also then say that 'Ultimecia' betrays herself.

By creating a world where only she can exist, she's removed everything and anything worth living for. What point is there in power if there's nothing you can exercise it against? Joy...you're supreme leader of monsters - well, that's certainly satisfying (this assumes that anything besides herself can exist).

Personally, in this scenario, I would ultimately (pun intended) see her as (if she hasn't already) going completely insane, frozen in a moment of time.

What it says to me is that if Ulti's motivation is to never again risk love/betrayal again, then she's essentially a weak person. People are supposed to learn from their experiences, not fold beneath them and shut away the world.

Honestly, I don't see the point of time compression at all. I don't understand what it would really achieve.

As far as generations go, realistically, that can be as little as 12 years (possibly less) since all we need to achieve it is two people capable of producing a child. I *believe* the accepted time period is 20 years though, isn't it?

I don't particularly believe Rinoa is Ultimecia, despite the arguments in favor of it. It isn't that I think it'd be wrong or unsatisfying for her to have become Ulti (it IS depressing in the extreme, and an interesting twist on things were it to be true), just that nothing I've seen so far leads me to favor that side of the debate.

I guess it mainly goes back to the time loop and paradox. I'd explain that statement, but it gave me an idea for a fanfic (cough).

Anyway...I'm sure this has come up before elsewhere but it's really bugging me (since I'm in the middle of a playthrough and it caught my eye again) -- If Edea passed on her powers (without realizing it) to Rinoa after the Galbadia battle (and not just Ulti's consciousness)...then what the heck is she fighting with when you can have her in your party? All I mean is...she has no weapon, she just waves her hand type thing and thwaps the heck outta enemies.From: Nakar Gabab | Posted: 10/16/2003 1:12:26 PM | Message DetailHonestly, I don't see the point of time compression at all. I don't understand what it would really achieve.

To be honest, I don't see the point of SUCCESSFUL time compression either. Which leads me to suspect she was intending to fail.

However, if you don't at least suspect U=R (which I do, though I'm not sure), there's little reason to conclude that she's trying to fail. Which means she's no more or less logical than any FF villain who was trying to destroy everything, now was she? So at worst she's just part for the course, and at best she's exceedingly clever.----NakarFrom: eirias | Posted: 10/16/2003 6:49:07 PM | Message DetailI don't know if anyone else has posted this thought, but After reading some of your arguments it got me thinking about this whole Rinoa is Ultimicia theory and so I came up with a reason why (to me) Rinoa is not Ultimicia.

1)If Rinoa is Ultimicia then there sorceress powers should be equal to each other.

2)At the end of the game, we know that Ultimicia, after being defeated by Squall's party, goes back in time and transfers her powers to Sorceress Edea, who later, unknowingly, transfers her powers(which include her original powers and Ultimicia's powers) to Rinoa.

3)This forms a contradiction because if Rinoa and Ultimicia are the same person then there powers would be equal, but Rinoa received Edea's powers as well as Ultimica's powers which would make her stronger and thus not Ultimicia.

This can be expressed as: Edea+Ultimicia's power = Rinoa's powerUltimicia's power = Ultimicia's powerRinoa's power > Ultimicia's powerRinoa is not Ultimicia

From what I can tell, there is one contradiction to this and that is that Rinoa loses some of her power so that by the time she fights Squall as Ultimicia she has the same power as she did at that point. (I personally do not think this is a very good contradiction because as far as we know there is no way to reduce a sorceresses power permanently)

Well, these are my thoughts on the matter, and whether for or against my view on this subject I hope you all understood what my reasoning's were and why I came to this conclusion.

From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/17/2003 5:26:09 AM | Message DetailGah, fine, another post from me:

I've got a question, if Ultimecia is Rinoa, then wouldn't one of them cease to exist under time compression? It's been a long time since I beat the game, but I seem to remember there being a big deal made about there being only one version of each person during TC. So if that follows, then shouldn't Rinoa have been 'missing' during disc 4?

Time Compressions is never achieved in the game(made obvious because no one ever DOES dissapear among other things) so we don't know.

I *believe* the accepted time period is 20 years though, isn't it?

Yes.

eiria:

But if Rinoa was Ultimecia, then Ultimecias power would also be Edeas+Ultimecias power(she can't be said to give away part of her power as time goes by).

Like so:

Ultimecia gives power to Edea who gives all her powers to Rinoa, who receives powers from Adel. Rinoa lives on and becomes Ultimecia with the combined powers of Edea and Adel.

So the first Ultimecia natrually has Edea+Adel and so has Rinoa.

So they DO have equal power.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/17/2003 5:28:08 AM | Message DetailOr a better power transfer line(- means gives power to):

Ultimecia - Edea - Rinoa + Adel = Ultimecia - Edea - Rinoa etc....

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From: Cashew | Posted: 10/17/2003 12:27:02 PM | Message DetailI didnt read the whole topic so sorry if this has already been mentioned.

If Rinoa is Ulty than why would she try to kill her self just before the parade.(she tried to sacrafice her with those to lizard thingys)

And secondly when you see Ulty in the future she looks nothing like Rinoa what so ever.

Also I know this doesnt belong in this topic but I have always thought that Squall is the son of Laguna and Raine. My brother doesnt think so. Am I right?---When it comes to the magic stick, I'm Harry Potter.From: eirias | Posted: 10/17/2003 3:55:09 PM | Message DetailSir Bahamut, I noticed what you said, and I thought along those lines to. I came to the conclusion that then Rinoa/Ultimecia would have to be all powerful (because of the time loop) for Rinoa/Ultimecia to be the same person.

As using your example: ( - means gives power to)

Ultimecia - Edea - Rinoa + Adel = Ultimecia+Edea+Adel - Edea - Rinoa + Adel = Ultimecia+Edea*2+Adel*2 etc...

This would mean that Ultimecia/Rinoa is all powerful( for every time loop she would gain another set of Adel and Edea's powers) and we know this can't be the case because Ultimecia loses to Squall, and if she had infinite power she probably would of used it to defeat him.

This would lead to two conclusions:

1)Rinoa is not Ultimecia

2)for some reason Ultimecia wanted to lose, and by none other than the person she loved most in her life. This would also prove that time compression was not for the sake of power( which she would have a infinite amount of if she was Rinoa), but to lose by Squall's hands.

I myself would rather believe the first one, since the second leaves to many questions unanswered.From: jarodS | Posted: 10/17/2003 5:01:54 PM | Message DetailI don't really believe that they are the same, I see no reason for them to be, but this is not my point. If Rinoa becomes Ulti, what is the motivation?

The common thoughts I've seen on this are love. Kind of a warped view on love though. It's been said that Ulti perhaps does it because she feels betrayed by love. How would that happen? The theme of the game is in fact love, I agree with that, and it is a pure love between Rinoa and Squall that brings them together in the end. There love is so strong that not even time compression (or an attempted one, whatever) can keep them apart. If there love for each other is so strong I see no reason that Rinoa would ever feel betrayed. If she becomes Ultimecia that implies that the love between Rinoa and Squall didn't last, and I think that is ridiculous given the ending.

I'm not saying that I can't see it as a possibility, because I can see it and I would never dismiss a theory without hard evidence. As far as I can see the only thing that can truly support the idea is that Rinoa is the last known sorceress before Ultimecia. I don't think this is what was intended for the story because it would have been made more obvious or more information would have been given. From: JD IXI | Posted: 10/18/2003 4:36:58 AM | Message DetailJust because Rinoa and Ultimecia have wings doesn't mean there is a direct connection to them being the same person.

Think about it in retrospect.

Ultimecia is evil. Ultimecia's black wings are a figament of her dark powers incarnate.

Rinoa is good. Rinoa doesn't have wings until she takes on Ultimecia's powers.

Using that(much clearer) logic, Ultimecia's black wings don't represent Rinoa's power corrupted. Instead, Rinoa's white wings represent Ultimecia's powers purified(which also explains why they are so much weaker).

Besides, Adel didn't get her powers from Edea. Adel existed BEFORE Edea. Edea was a prime body for recieving sorceress' powers(so says there thousands in the world in the tutorial); but she didn't actually recieve anything until Ultimecia stepped in.

This is the only reason why more than one sorceress exists in the 'current' era of the game.

All in all, the fact remains that there is no plausable, nor standing proof of Rinoa's connection to Ultimecia. Period. Granted, I didn't exactly bother to read through the approaching 1000 posts on this topic; but this isn't the first of it's kind, and I can near

gurantee you that nobody here supporting the arguement has anything that hasn't been shot down before.

---"Odin?!" - Squall, FFVIIII love Ultimecia...the Intellect, the Beauty...oh, God, if you could only be mine!From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/18/2003 5:37:36 AM | Message Detaileirias:

This is a very confusing subject(time loops usually are), and I'll post again later on it, if that's ok.

All in all, the fact remains that there is no plausable, nor standing proof of Rinoa's connection to Ultimecia. Period. Granted, I didn't exactly bother to read through the approaching 1000 posts on this topic; but this isn't the first of it's kind, and I can near gurantee you that nobody here supporting the arguement has anything that hasn't been shot down before.

You needed only read the last ten pages to see the exact same statement coming from myself. Basically, we all know there is no proof for it. We never said there was, we never will say there is, and there never will be. Period.That doesn't mean it still isn't an option(there is no proof that says Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa, period, and no, Occams Razor isn't proof).

The theory is possible(Rinoa could live to become Ultimecia and it wouldn't violate in game facts), so it's all a matter of choice.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/18/2003 6:18:57 AM | Message DetailOk, I made a perfect transfer line, that will show how you are wrong, but I can't for the life of me get it on here correctly(been trying for like half an hour now), so if you have a mail, I could mail it to you.

--- "Don't be hasty"From: MouseIX | Posted: 10/18/2003 6:46:15 AM | Message DetailJust playing FF8 again there and noticed something interesting when i was naming Griever. Griever = Grieve + Ever. Interesting. I don't believe the Ultimecia=Rinoa theory but even if it's not true this is an interesting coincidence. Ultimicia/Rinoa grieved-ever for Squall after she thought he had died?

---I would make myself a signature only I don't know how.http://tinyclick.com/?39szrjFrom: Nakar Gabab | Posted: 10/18/2003 11:16:37 AM | Message DetailThat doesn't mean it still isn't an option(there is no proof that says Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa, period, and no, Occams Razor isn't proof).

Ironically, Occam's Razor would work in FAVOR of the U=R argument, because OR is not "the simplest answer is probably correct," but rather "do not multiply entities unnecessarily."

Therefore, if you have the opportunity NOT to add something to the explanation, you would be more inclined to do so. If there's even a chance that U=R, you would therefore give it serious thought, because if it's true it clears up a question of "who the heck is this Ultimecia?" without adding some mysterious unknown sorceress who has no clear motivations. It does raise questions of its own, but (IMO) no more than the original idea that she's not would.

It's still not proof though, of course, but rather a methodological approach. Largely meaningless, but I thought I'd note it.----NakarFrom: eirias | Posted: 10/18/2003 6:00:37 PM | Message DetailTo Sir Bahamut,You can send it to benbwk@msn.comFrom: branx | Posted: 10/18/2003 7:52:06 PM | Message DetailI just have to say this is a very good discussion, and it's better than most Rinoa=Ultimecia topics I've seen before, which all usually end in flames. Anywa,y, could somebody please send the first Ulty=Rinoa topic to me.(badbranx_6543210@hotmail.com).---That's my two cents.Makin Movies, Makin Songs, and Fightin 'Round the World- Russle Crowe from South Park.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/19/2003 2:42:46 AM | Message DetailMail sent to eirian.

For the second person, I managed ti send a mail without the attachment, but the second real one is sending as I'm typing(it's a huge attachment so it takes ages).

---"Don't be hasty"From: Yusuke01 | Posted: 10/19/2003 9:16:51 PM | Message DetailRinoa is not Ultamecia. If she were, they would have put alot more evidence suggesting so, not just the half-assed arguments the R=U side keeps bringing up.

For one, why would Ultamecia try to kill Rinoa in Edea's body? I mean if she becomes Ultamecia, why try to kill yourself? Doesn't make much sense.

Another, how the hell do you get this idea anyway? Ultamecia posseses

Rinoa........why would she posses herself?

Why would Rinoa change her name to Ultamecia? Why would she turn evil?

If square wanted us to believe R=U, there would be much more solid evidence pointing us to that direction. Rinoa looks nothing like Ultamecia,they don't act alike at all, and the whole griever thing is best argument you have, but doesn't she take that from squall's mind or something?

Again why would Ultamecia fight herself, posses herself and all this. It makes 0 sense. You know why it makes 0 sense? Because everything I just said ^^, plus they found out about Ultamecia BEFORE Rinoa even gets her sorceress powers. If this were all true about R=U, it would be a NEVER-ENDING cycle. There would be no happy ending, the ending would just show Ulta. pass her powers to Edea, then it would say the end, and then you would be back at Garden at the very start of the game.

---"I have the power to pull you into oblivion, I assume just my right arm will do." - HieiFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/20/2003 6:44:34 AM | Message DetailRinoa is not Ultamecia.

Prove it.

If she were, they would have put alot more evidence suggesting so, not just the half-assed arguments the R=U side keeps bringing up.

I could just as easily say that the arguments for Rinoa not being Ultimecia are as half-assed, but that doesn't mean they are. No one here(which you would have known if you had only read the two last pages) is saying the "proofs" are abundant, because there are none.

There is no evidence, period. Yet there is no evidence the other way ether, period.If you think the arguments presented that supports the theory are half-assed, then that's fine, but it's not proof.

For one, why would Ultamecia try to kill Rinoa in Edea's body? I mean if she becomes Ultamecia, why try to kill yourself? Doesn't make much sense.

Ugh, I hate having to repeat things so many times. Perhaps Ultimecia remembers the past and knows that she will survive? Perhaps Ultimecia is mad? Perhaps Ultimecias memory has been erased due to GFs? There are several answers. Only the first two are actually used in the theory though.

Ultamecia posseses Rinoa........why would she posses herself?

So she can free Adel, I thought that was made clear. And before you say "But if they are the same person, why does she need to possess her?", think:How on earth would Rinoa be able to know anything about what she is thinking in the

future? That's right, there is no way, ergo Ultimecia has to possess her.

Why would Rinoa change her name to Ultamecia? Why would she turn evil?

Honestly, you could have at least given it SOME thought, instead of blindly following the general consensus like most people do.

She might change her name so as to avoid confusion among the party. She could have simply remembered that they fought someone called Ultimecia, so she took that name. She might have forgotten her name. She might have gone insane.

Why would she turn evil? Who said she did? She might be doing all what she does so she and Squall can be together in the past. Or perhaps she just went insane. I like the former though; we've had enough insane last bosses.

If square wanted us to believe R=U, there would be much more solid evidence pointing us to that direction.

Oh really? Some here think the "evidence" is so abundant that it is obvious. Some think there' just enough. Some think there's little. I don't think there's tons, but then again, Square leave their games open to deciphering in most cases(think about FF7 and the arguments there on who the enemy really is).

Rinoa looks nothing like Ultamecia,they don't act alike at all, and the whole griever thing is best argument you have, but doesn't she take that from squall's mind or something?

Apperance: Twisted by evil or insanity? Perhaps she altered her appearance?

The Griever argument is the best argument? Tell me, what were the last arguments you read(hint: if it's not on this topic, don't bother mentioning them)?

Again why would Ultamecia fight herself, posses herself and all this. It makes 0 sense. You know why it makes 0 sense? Because everything I just said ^^,

Read my above statemenst please. And next time you barge in saying how it doesn't make sense, please provide an argument(and no, saying "Why would she do that? Doesn't make any sense!" is no argument).

If this were all true about R=U, it would be a NEVER-ENDING cycle. There would be no happy ending, the ending would just show Ulta. pass her powers to Edea, then it would say the end, and then you would be back at Garden at the very start of the game.

Well, the neverending cycle is there no matter what. Ultimecia always returns, just in anpother timeline, with "other heroes".

And are you saying that a un-happy ending is so unimaginable that it constitutes a proof?

---"Don't be hasty"From: Yusuke01 | Posted: 10/20/2003 6:49:39 PM | Message DetailOk....before going into the Lunatic Pandora it says " Ultamecia sends her mind to the past to posses Rinoa " and then she starts time compression or whatever. The GF make you lose some memories, but when Ulta. first takes over Rinoa, seeing as how there the SAME person as many of you believe, I would think since shes in her OWN mind she would remember that she is Rinoa(Gfs do make you forget, but you remember if your reminded, and I think she would be reminded if shes in her own mind). There isn't enough evidence SOLID evidence to say that she is Ultamecia,there is however more solid evidence to suggest shes just Ultamecia.

Its just a sad attempt to give Ultamecia more development, believe it if you want, but if it were true, Square would have put more into it.

Think about it, the theme is love......if Rinoa is Ultamecia it completely contradicts the theme because that would be sad that she keeps becoming Ultamecia. I think your thinking WAY to much into it. Now if the ending had Ultamecia telling squall that she is in fact Rinoa I would believe it. Square would have done something more like that, rather then the little ideas and theories you bring up.

If you look at Squall and Laguna, its loosely implied that they are father and son, to some its obviously implied. Some believe they aren't, but theres alot more evidence to suggest they are father and son. Square would have done the same with Ultamecia and Rinoa if they were the same person. They would have put MORE evidence suggesting it, and they didn't. ---"I have the power to pull you into oblivion, I assume just my right arm will do." - HieiFrom: Cloudisthebest | Posted: 10/20/2003 6:54:10 PM | Message DetailAnd yet the world keeps on turning.---*just Junctioned myself to Quistis*From: The Blind One | Posted: 10/21/2003 6:19:18 AM | Message DetailYou needed only read the last ten pages to see the exact same statement coming from myself. Basically, we all know there is no proof for it. We never said there was, we never will say there is, and there never will be. Period.That doesn't mean it still isn't an option(there is no proof that says Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa, period, and no, Occams Razor isn't proof).

It's not really proof but basic logistics used by many to identify the best way possible to find a conclusion..

Hence why I also believe that Ultimecia is not Rinoa simply because it wasn't revealed...

---"The fastest way to succeed is to look as if you're playing by somebody else's rules, while quietly playing by your own."

From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/21/2003 6:20:04 AM | Message DetailOn your whole GF argument thing:

If you had read more carefully, you would have seen that the GF thing there isn't used in the theory.

There isn't enough evidence SOLID evidence to say that she is Ultamecia,there is however more solid evidence to suggest shes just Ultamecia.

Ok, lets hear it then.

believe it if you want, but if it were true, Square would have put more into it.

Ok, that's your opinion.

Think about it, the theme is love......if Rinoa is Ultamecia it completely contradicts the theme because that would be sad that she keeps becoming Ultamecia.

Not necessarily. If Rinoas motives for doung what she does is to let her and Squall be together in the past, regardless of all the innocent people she has to kill, she does it.Looks like love is sentral here too, no?

Square would have done something more like that, rather then the little ideas and theories you bring up.

Uh, no they wouldn't =PHow many FFs have you played? In FF7 for instance, they don't have someone say at the end what really happened or anything.They leave it to the player. They have even officially said(in several interviews) that they always leave things like the ending open to interpretation(ESPECIALLY in FF8 and 7).

Square would have done the same with Ultamecia and Rinoa if they were the same person. They would have put MORE evidence suggesting it, and they didn't.

Would they? Ok, that's your opinion, and not your evidence.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/21/2003 6:21:33 AM | Message DetailIt's not really proof but basic logistics used by many to identify the best way possible to find a conclusion..

I know, that's why I wrote, and I quote:

"Occcams razor isn't proof" =P

---"Don't be hasty"From: The Blind One | Posted: 10/21/2003 6:24:28 AM | Message Detail

Yet you believe that the burden of proof is place evenly on both sides..When Occam's Razor applies more to the idea of Ultimecia not being Rinoa??---"The fastest way to succeed is to look as if you're playing by somebody else's rules, while quietly playing by your own." From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/21/2003 6:43:03 AM | Message DetailI don't believe in any burden of proof, simply because there is none.

I believe anyone who wants to argue, should present good, solid arguments, and not just use Occams razor as an answer. On either side.

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From: Yusuke01 | Posted: 10/21/2003 8:59:05 PM | Message Detail". If Rinoas motives for doung what she does is to let her and Squall be together in the past, regardless of all the innocent people she has to kill, she does it.Looks like love is sentral here too, no?"

Well im about to go beat the game and see the dialoge again so I'll just say a little about it till then. If that were the case then yes, but Ultamecia doesn't say " Squall I just wanted to be with you" or anything like it. Thats all I can say till I go beat the game again.

"How many FFs have you played? In FF7 for instance, they don't have someone say at the end what really happened or anything."

All of them. No they don't say what happend at the end in ff7 they SHOWED what happend. They don't SHOW that Ultamecia is Rinoa.

"Ok, lets hear it then."

Ok, if you want. How bout the fact its never stated that they are the same, Ultamecia looks nothing like Rinoa, Rinoa isn't the bad guy. Yes Ultamecia IS evil, its evil to KILL OFF EVERYONE doing time compression just so you can be alone, its evil to KILL ANYONE, she is evil.....Rinoa is not.

I don't care for your BS theories on how becoming evil and what not makes her appearance change. Making up something doesn't mean that R=U.....maybe to you, but not to me.

I'll get around to beating it sometime tomorrow, and I'll be back to post more on it.

---

"I have the power to pull you into oblivion, I assume just my right arm will do." - HieiFrom: branx | Posted: 10/21/2003 11:05:47 PM | Message DetailYou seem to have convenietly left out all SirBahamut's points that prove yours wrong. Such as the fact that they don't show you waht really happens in FF7 - they leave what truly happens to the player to decide.

Ok, if you want. How bout the fact its never stated that they are the same, Ultamecia looks nothing like Rinoa, Rinoa isn't the bad guy. Yes Ultamecia IS evil, its evil to KILL OFF EVERYONE doing time compression just so you can be alone, its evil to KILL ANYONE, she is evil.....Rinoa is not.

Yes, but if Rinoa is Ultemicia, like Sir Bahamut said, she would know that time compression wouldn't work, and just did everything to play out her part in the love story of her and Squall. Wouldn't this enforce the theme of love more? The fact that Rinoa would sacrifice herself, and do all those horrible things just to be with Squall.---That's my two cents.Makin Movies, Makin Songs, and Fightin 'Round the World- Russle Crowe from South Park.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/22/2003 5:02:07 AM | Message DetailUltamecia doesn't say " Squall I just wanted to be with you" or anything like it.

She doesn't say "Squall, I didn't do this to be with you in the past" either now does she.

All of them. No they don't say what happend at the end in ff7 they SHOWED what happend. They don't SHOW that Ultamecia is Rinoa.

In FF7, yes, they show what happens, of course, you get to SEE the ending, but they leave it hanging(they stop before you see everything, then cut to 500 years later).In FF8 it is arguable that they don't show(some consider the wings changing colour, and Ultimecias face flashing over Rinoas to be SHOWING it).They don't say it, but they don't say the opposite either, thus both are possible, and open to interpretation.

Ultamecia looks nothing like Rinoa,

Edea could change the length of her hair. DO you think it is impossible for a much stronger Sorceress to change her face slightly during many generations?

Rinoa isn't the bad guy

Nice proof, infallible. Oh wait, what if I were to say "No, Rinoa is the bad guy"? Oh dear, looks like I just proved you wrong using your logic.

Yes Ultamecia IS evil, its evil to KILL OFF EVERYONE doing time compression just so you can be alone,

Prove it.

Rinoa is not

Not the Rinoa you meet in the game, no, obviously, but it IS possible for her to change.Besides, if you had read what I said, she doesn't have to be evil.

Making up something doesn't mean that R=U.....maybe to you, but not to me.

Geez, I never said Rinoa = Ultimecia QED, you are the one saying the opposite, so I should be telling you off.I only said it is possible and that based on your view it is either true or not.

You seem to have convenietly left out all SirBahamut's points that prove yours wrong.

Thank you for the support.

Yes, but if Rinoa is Ultemicia, like Sir Bahamut said, she would know that time compression wouldn't work, and just did everything to play out her part in the love story of her and Squall. Wouldn't this enforce the theme of love more? The fact that Rinoa would sacrifice herself, and do all those horrible things just to be with Squall.

Exactly. Ultimecia/Rinoa doesn't have to be evil.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/22/2003 6:43:08 PM | Message DetailBahamut continues his passive and nuetral bashing!

No, I'm not dead. I ask that someone save this topic once IT reaches 500, as I'm sure it will. I can't be on GameFAQs as much as I'd like, but I want this topic to flesh out the FAQ I am currently writing. Only Bahamut made his submission (which was very well done), so I am going to do the rest.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: branx | Posted: 10/23/2003 10:22:47 PM | Message DetailBump.---That's my two cents.Makin Movies, Makin Songs, and Fightin 'Round the World- Russle Crowe from South Park.From: branx | Posted: 10/25/2003 2:15:50 AM | Message DetailHow much of the FAQ has been completed so far?---That's my two cents.Makin Movies, Makin Songs, and Fightin 'Round the World- Russle Crowe from

South Park.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/25/2003 6:11:38 PM | Message DetailBahamut's section, and I think I finished the Griever section.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: JD IXI | Posted: 10/26/2003 8:06:09 AM | Message DetailWell, the most I could hope for is that you aren't including Griever among your 'proofs' in support of the theory. It isn't a Guardian Force.

Though, in any case, using inverse logic doesn't support the theory. It's like Theists who ask Athiests to prove that God doesn't exist.

Claiming something to be true because there's no evidence to state that it isn't, is not a valid argument. It simply shows that you're meerely scraping at the bottom for anything to throw at the opposition. A desperate tactic.

Though, we could easily use the same circulaur logic and again claim that your own stance remains illigitimate due to it's lack of proof to begin with.

The statements against the theory are at least valid, ranging from the time difference(there IS another sorceress that stands between Rinoa and Ultimecia...you fight her during time compression en-route to the castle), to the dramatic change in appearance, personality, and dialogue.

I'm sure you can make up a good number of stories as to how Rinoa could possibly have become Ultimecia; though as it stands, they're no more equally valid than one I could make up minutes from now stating that Irvine is Ultimecia, with a much simpler explanation.

Given that you can't show the theory to be true, it remains just that, a theory. You can hypothesize all you like, but without solid support(period), you can't make a strong argument with nothing but conjecture.

---"Odin?!" - Squall, FFVIIII love Ultimecia...the Intellect, the Beauty...oh, God, if you could only be mine!From: Nakar Gabab | Posted: 10/26/2003 9:12:42 AM | Message DetailI'm sure you can make up a good number of stories as to how Rinoa could possibly have become Ultimecia; though as it stands, they're no more equally valid than one I could make up minutes from now stating that Irvine is Ultimecia, with a much simpler explanation.

I'd be interested to know how Irvine, who is neither a sorceress nor female, would be "simpler" to explain than Rinoa=Ultimecia, given that Rinoa *is* a sorceress and *is* female and therefore, by that alone, *could* be Ultimecia through fewer logical hoops than Irvine.

I'm not saying it makes U=R true, just that arguing anyone ELSE as Ultimecia is

ridiculous and is NOT simpler than R=U. I would argue you can conclude only one of two things: EITHER Ultimecia is Rinoa, OR she is some completely different sorceress with NO identity in the game besides that which has been given to her. She is not, nor should she even be considered to be, any other character. One of the two. Believe what you want.----NakarFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/26/2003 10:35:58 AM | Message DetailOk JD IXI, I'll accept that challenge.

COME UP WITH A THEORY that Irvine=Ultimecia that makes more sense and has better evidence than Rinoa=Ultimecia and I will gladly close this topic and stop everything dead.

But since you can't there's no point now is there?---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: supersi | Posted: 10/26/2003 12:43:36 PM | Message Detailthere are unlimited possibilities guys, its definately up to the player. you cant 100% proove nothing!

it could even come down to rinoa having a child--->ultimecia or a twin sister that jealous :SFrom: palom | Posted: 10/26/2003 2:46:49 PM | Message DetailWow...I just spent nearly 3 hours reading through all those posts.

There are some very interesting theories here, but before giving my opinion I'd like to read the first topic, can someone send it to: happy_horny_hard_and_high@hotmail.com

Thanks.From: branx | Posted: 10/27/2003 12:15:54 AM | Message Detailbump.---That's my two cents.Makin Movies, Makin Songs, and Fightin 'Round the World- Russle Crowe from South Park.From: Can Eater | Posted: 10/27/2003 12:38:07 AM | Message DetailThe Sorceress that is Ultimecia is the woman named Ultimecia, just turned into a power hungry sorceress. No where in the game does it say that a sorceress has ever changed her name in the past, present, or the future. So, why would Rinoa change her

name to Ultimecia after any given length of time? As I recall, they say in the game that Ultimecia's time is many, many years from that of Squall and gang's present (the time at which most of the game takes place). Not just a couple of years, not just ten or fifteen. We're talkin' about at least after all our heroes have grown old and died. We can assume this because, why would Squall have to go in time compression to defeat Ultimecia when his future self could have just defeated her in her own time?I just see no reason to believe that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in the future.---[This message was deleted because some whiny teenager can't handle the real world]From: Nazomi | Posted: 10/27/2003 1:36:45 AM | Message DetailI cant believe how much you ppl can feel for a game ... a GAME.Its not real---Power comes to a need, not a desire.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/27/2003 6:47:18 AM | Message DetailIt isn't a Guardian Force.

Yes it is. They call it Guardian Force in the Japanese version as well.

Claiming something to be true because there's no evidence to state that it isn't, is not a valid argument.

Honestly, I thought at least you had the decency to read a few of the pages!I've said it countless times before, and I'll say it countless times again:

We haven't claimed it to be true. We haven't claimed there is proof. We have only shown how it is possible, and is a much more interesting viewpoint than the normal one

The statements against the theory are at least valid, ranging from the time difference(there IS another sorceress that stands between Rinoa and Ultimecia...you fight her during time compression en-route to the castle), to the dramatic change in appearance, personality, and dialogue.

Your point being? It is still possible, which is all we have said. Whether you take it for truth or not is your own concern.

By the way, the only "valid" point against the theory there, is the change in appearance. You can ask me if you want me to go further, but as of now, I'll try and let you figure it out for yourself(although chances are you're too narrow-minded to even attempt).

they're no more equally valid than one I could make up minutes from now stating that Irvine is Ultimecia, with a much simpler explanation.

Not more valid, but certainly more probable. And I await your Irvine = Ultimecia theory, I trust it will be much more probable.

Given that you can't show the theory to be true, it remains just that, a theory. You can hypothesize all you like, but without solid support(period), you can't make a strong argument with nothing but conjecture.

You really haven't read a single post I made here, have you?

There are some very interesting theories here, but before giving my opinion I'd like to read the first topic, can someone send it to: happy_horny_hard_and_high@hotmail.com

I'll send it right now.

The Sorceress that is Ultimecia is the woman named Ultimecia, just turned into a power hungry sorceress.

Prove it.

No where in the game does it say that a sorceress has ever changed her name in the past, present, or the future.

And vice versa.

So, why would Rinoa change her name to Ultimecia after any given length of time?

Perhaps so that when the part comes to defeat her, they won't all collapse in confusion.

As I recall, they say in the game that Ultimecia's time is many, many years from that of Squall and gang's present (the time at which most of the game takes place). Not just a couple of years, not just ten or fifteen. We're talkin' about at least after all our heroes have grown old and died.

Wrong. The game states, and I quote "Ultimecia lives many generations ahead of our time".A generation is approx. 18-24, and many is a relative term.

We can assume this because, why would Squall have to go in time compression to defeat Ultimecia when his future self could have just defeated her in her own time?

Yeah, you're right, why couldn't Squall just have waited to grow old(and as you stated earlier, die), THEN even though he is old and possibly dead, attack her.Add in that Time Compression compresses ALL time, Squall had to go at once.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/27/2003 8:12:51 AM | Message DetailI already sent stiffy the topic yesterday.

Stiffy, heh heh.

My topic has been sullied by the hands of so many closed minded beings. Not that I have any right to complain since I haven't spent much time here. Kind of sad.

Bahamut, can you save this topic into that nice and neat Word format once it reaches 500? I plan to have the FAQ done by Christmas.---Yes, I am the owner and creator of PHYLUS, www.smashbox.net/novels/phylus/Number of cookies: 1From: Can Eater | Posted: 10/27/2003 3:05:02 PM | Message DetailSir Bahamut, you said it yourself, Ultimecia is many generations after the 'present'. Many means more than some, more than a few. So, we're talking about nearly a century, a time when everyone in the 'present' would be long dead, including Rinoa.Also, where are you pulling this 'Rinoa changed her name to Ultimecia' bull from?I've yet to see any concrete evidence to prove that Rinoa is Ultimecia, only speculation.If you're not trying to show evidence to prove that Rinoa is Ultimecia, but merely trying to show how it is possible , you could use all the same arguments to say any other female is Ultimecia. I say we start a "Selphie is Ultimecia" discussion. Hey, it'd make just as much sense as Rinoa, after all.---[This message was deleted because some whiny teenager can't handle the real world]From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/27/2003 4:11:16 PM | Message DetailGod, not another one.

Provide some examples of how it could be first.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: branx | Posted: 10/27/2003 10:05:03 PM | Message DetailI say we start a "Selphie is Ultimecia" discussion. Hey, it'd make just as much sense as Rinoa, after all.

I don't see how it would. Rinoa is the only female after all, that is actualy a sorceress.

Also, where are you pulling this 'Rinoa changed her name to Ultimecia' bull from?

He's not. No one is. But the fact is, can you prove that she didn't change her name.

For all your other "enquiries" read Bahamut's other posts. Besides, he'll probably reply to you anyway.

---That's my two cents.Makin Movies, Makin Songs, and Fightin 'Round the World- Russle Crowe from South Park.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Can Eater | Posted: 10/27/2003 11:32:58 PM | Message Detail

Just because there's no way to prove the negative doesn't automatically mean the positive is true.

Can one prove that God exists? The scietific answer is "one can neither prove nor disprove the existance." That doesn't mean a god has to exist, it just means there's no way to prove either way.

Same applies to this moot debate.

Just curious... where are you getting this "Rinoa is the only female" statement?

Using the whole "can't disprove it" b.s., one might as well say that Laguna and Ward are cousins. There's no real evidence to say that the statement is false, so it must be true, right!? It makes just as little sense as the whole Rinoa is Ultimecia thing.---[This message was deleted because some whiny teenager can't handle the real world]From: Nakar Gabab | Posted: 10/28/2003 1:21:54 AM | Message DetailJust curious... where are you getting this "Rinoa is the only female" statement?

They're not. They just used that to point out that Irvine cannot be Ultimecia, because Ultimecia is female. That, more than likely, would bar anyone else, from Squall to Zell to Irvine to Cid to ANY MALE IN THE GAME from being Ultimecia, unless a sorceress can change GENDERS now too (which is an even narrower limb to climb onto).

What is being said, however, is that Rinoa is the ONLY FEMALE who ALSO is a sorceress. This isn't up for debate.

Selphie is NOT a sorceress, and never becomes one.Quistis is NOT a sorceress, and never becomes one.Edea WAS a sorceress, but we clearly know her role was different.Rinoa IS a sorceress, and so far as I can tell, could REMAIN one.

It is not "just as easy" to say some other non-Rinoa female COULD be Ultimecia. Again, this doesn't mean Rinoa is Ultimecia, just that she COULD BE far easier than anyone else possibly could. You can't argue this; it's in the game. She's a sorceress, they're not. If indeed she were to become Ultimecia, it makes things a LOT easier, since you have an in-game explanation as to why she became a sorceress.----NakarFrom: Can Eater | Posted: 10/28/2003 3:17:09 AM | Message Detailjust that she COULD BE far easier than anyone else possibly could. You can't argue this; it's in the game.

Sure I can. Watch me.You're told in the game that there can only be one active sorcess at any given time. Edea was a sorcess, she lost her powers to Rinoa. She did this while she was still alive. So even if Ultimecia comes into power while Rinoa is still alive (though this is unlikely because Ultimecia's time is many generations in the future) it is 100% likely that Rinoa could give her powers to another. Edea gave up her powers, why can't

Rinoa do the same? Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to say that any other female in the game could be Ultimecia just as easily as Rinoa.

Even if you want to say that it's still possible for Rinoa (or anyone else for that matter) is still alive in Ultimecia's time, we can still assume that at least Ellone is dead, otherwise, Ultimecia wouldn't have to transpose herself back in time to get her. Ellone is quite argueably the most protected individual in the entire game. She has the White SeeDs, Squall and gang, and, thanks to Laguna, the entire Esthar continent protecting her. So it seems quite unlikely that she didn't die of old age. Ellone is just a couple of years older than Rinoa. It is quite feasible to say that Rinoa does not live in the time of Ultimecia.---[This message was deleted because some whiny teenager can't handle the real world]From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/28/2003 5:30:11 AM | Message DetailJust because there's no way to prove the negative doesn't automatically mean the positive is true.

I can't believe it. It's been ONE post since last time I said it again. Next time I'm on, I have to say it again. And if I here this commented on from you again, I'll ignore your statements completely:

We have not said it is true. We have not said there is proof(because there isn't any either way). We have only said it is an interesting possibility, that is much more probably than [insert name here] is Ultimecia, and that it is more interesting than Ultimecia being just some random Sorceress.

You're told in the game that there can only be one active sorcess at any given time.

Interesting, I guess Edea and Adel being Sorceresses at the same time, and Adel and Rinoa being Sorceresses at the same time was all just in my head then.

Sir Bahamut, you said it yourself, Ultimecia is many generations after the 'present'. Many means more than some, more than a few. So, we're talking about nearly a century, a time when everyone in the 'present' would be long dead, including Rinoa.

Even if it means more than a century, Rinoa could still be alive, because Sorceresses could have extended lifespan or immortal lifespan while they have their powers(something I say based on interpretations of ingame FACTS).

I say we start a "Selphie is Ultimecia" discussion. Hey, it'd make just as much sense as Rinoa, after all.

Ok, go on. Let's hear your argument as to how Selphie is Ultimecia. I'm sure you can explain how she got Sorceress powers inside your head, then fealt obliged to do what she does, and fit it in with love.

Using the whole "can't disprove it" b.s., one might as well say that Laguna and Ward are cousins. There's no real evidence to say that the statement is false, so it must be true, right!? It makes just as little sense as the whole Rinoa is Ultimecia thing.

It is a possibility(which is what we have been saying abour R=U all along, but you STILL seem to have missed that), but is is incredibly improbable. If you want to believe it, fine, go ahead. But you can't say R=U is less probable.

Actually, I dare you to find ONE example of who Ultimecia is that is as probably as Rinoa. Just ONE.

it is 100% likely that Rinoa could give her powers to another.

You're right, even though it isn't shown or implied in the game at all, we can all assume that she gives on her powers.If you want to base your arguments off crap you pulled out of thin air, then that's fine, but the arguments WE provide are actually found INSIDE the limits of the game.

Even if you want to say that it's still possible for Rinoa (or anyone else for that matter) is still alive in Ultimecia's time, we can still assume that at least Ellone is dead, otherwise, Ultimecia wouldn't have to transpose herself back in time to get her.

I fail to see the relevance.

It is quite feasible to say that Rinoa does not live in the time of Ultimecia.

Why?

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/28/2003 5:32:20 AM | Message DetailBy the way, I want to make one thing quite clear:

The R=U theory is 100% possible. Nothing in the game directly proves it not to be. Even Vilurum agreed to this.

If you think you can provide another theory as probable, then by all means, go ahead, no one is stopping you. But saying "I could find a much better theory in 2 minutes" isn't proving anything.You have to SHOW us the theory.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Jimmyboy | Posted: 10/28/2003 11:20:04 AM | Message DetailI have a question that's probably already been addressed, but I doubt I can afford leafing through all the pages in this topic, so I hope you will be patient and answer it sufficiently.

If, hypothetically, Rinoa was going to become Ultimecia, why would the Ultimecia-possessed Edea try to kill her before the parade (the Iguion scene)? ---If there's anything more important than my ego about, I want it caught and shot now.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/28/2003 1:28:44 PM | Message Detail

If, hypothetically, Rinoa was going to become Ultimecia, why would the Ultimecia-possessed Edea try to kill her before the parade (the Iguion scene)?

Three(two really) options:

1) Rinoa(Ultimecia) remembered the outcome of the event, and knew that she would survive, so she could continue with whatever motive she had

2) Rinoa remembered everything, and knew that if she did everything the way she remembered it, she and Squall could be together.

3) Rinoa was mad.

Personally, I like the second one best.

---"Don't be hasty"From: branx | Posted: 10/28/2003 9:17:11 PM | Message DetailI'm going to bump this topic again, but if it's not really needed anymore, just tell me to stop.---That's my two cents.Makin Movies, Makin Songs, and Fightin 'Round the World- Russle Crowe from South Park.From: Can Eater | Posted: 10/29/2003 3:33:58 PM | Message DetailYou have to remember that when time travel to the past is performed, an alternate universe is formed. It was all explained so eliquantly in Back to the Future. (I'm not taking these ideas from Back to the Future, just saying they explained it a little. This whole time-continuum theory was refined by Stephen Hawking. If you want to say this is false, than in essence, you are saying you are smarter than Mr. Hawking, which seems highly unlikely.)

It's like this... You have your original time line (pre- Ultimecia screwing with things). Then someone goes back in time and alters it (Ultimecia sends her consciousness back in time into Edea). A new time line is created (the time the game takes place). The future of this new time line is not the same future as the original time line.

Ultimecia sent her consciousness back in time from the original time line. Therefore she could could not know the outcome of the Iguion battle because in her original time line, it never happened. So that entire theory of Rinoa remembering is thrown out the window. So now we're left with Ultimecia trying to kill Rinoa, and it seems unlikely that a person would try to extinguish their own existance.---[This message was deleted because some whiny teenager can't handle the real world]From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/29/2003 6:02:27 PM | Message DetailSomehow I don't think the writers were thinking along those lines when they wrote this game.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -

MorgaineDaxJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Perfect Xero | Posted: 10/29/2003 10:39:22 PM | Message DetailOkay, I'll say straight off, that I don't like Rinoa very much (I'm a Quistis fan myself), she's my least favorite character in the game, so I'd love it if Rinoa was Ultimecia ... But I just can't buy it.

1. Rinoa looks nothing like Ultimecia.

2. Ultimecia tries to kill Rinoa multiple times.

3. Sorceress's age (proven by Edea who got her powers as a child), Ultimecia is from 'many generations into the future,' This would be, at the least, 60 years (a generation is about 15 years, many is at least 4), probably more.

4. There is nothing in the game that hints at Rinoa becoming Ultimecia. It's just as likely that Quistis, Selphie, Xu, or anybody else in the game is Ultimecia. It's much more likely that Ultimecia is just some girl in the future who becomes a sorceress at some point after Rinoa.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/30/2003 6:42:20 AM | Message DetailIt's like this... You have your original time line (pre- Ultimecia screwing with things). Then someone goes back in time and alters it (Ultimecia sends her consciousness back in time into Edea). A new time line is created (the time the game takes place). The future of this new time line is not the same future as the original time line.

That's one theory. I know another:

Time is constant, and cannot be changed ever. No new timelines are ever created, everything happens they it does, and cannot be changed. It's like this:

Rinoa is born - Rinoa is attacked by Iguions and survives - Rinoa becomes Ultimecia - Ultimecia attacks herself with Iguions.

And that's it. You can't say your idea on time is correct, because it's only a theory, and the whole point of a theory is that it can never be proven, only disproved.Here, I'll give an example of both views:

World Trade Center is destroyed-Someone goes back in time and stops the planes, then returns.

In your view, when he returned to his timeline, the World Trade Center would still be destroyed, but still standing in ANOTHER timeline.Here's the other view:

Someone comes back in time and stops the planes-World Trade Center never destroyed.

See the difference? Both are equally plausible.

Ultimecia sent her consciousness back in time from the original time line. Therefore she could could not know the outcome of the Iguion battle because in her original time line, it never happened.

As I said, only if that's your view of time.

So that entire theory of Rinoa remembering is thrown out the window. So now we're left with Ultimecia trying to kill Rinoa, and it seems unlikely that a person would try to extinguish their own existance.

I repeat, only if that is your view on time and timetravel.

1. Rinoa looks nothing like Ultimecia.

Edea could change the length of her hair(and possibly keep a young appearance).It doesn't seem so impossible that a Sorceress of much greater power could change her face slightly.

2. Ultimecia tries to kill Rinoa multiple times.

But if you believe that time is a constant line, she could have remembered that she would survive.

3. Sorceress's age (proven by Edea who got her powers as a child), Ultimecia is from 'many generations into the future,' This would be, at the least, 60 years (a generation is about 15 years, many is at least 4), probably more.

Actually, we're never told how old Edea was when she was a "child" so it's not actually proven.

And anyway, a Sorceress can have extended lifespan, or unlimited lifespan while she has her powers(if anyone wants me to explain why I say this, go ahead and ask).

4. There is nothing in the game that hints at Rinoa becoming Ultimecia. It's just as likely that Quistis, Selphie, Xu, or anybody else in the game is Ultimecia. It's much more likely that Ultimecia is just some girl in the future who becomes a sorceress at some point after Rinoa.

What about Ultimecias face flashing over Rinoas?What about Rinoas wings turning from white to black?What about Ultimecias Castle placed where they promised to meet?

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 10/30/2003 11:36:59 AM | Message Detail

Rinoa's wings are a subject I'd like to bring up.

They can serve as a strong tie between herself and Ultimecia. I ask: what possible purpose do they serve otherwise? They are not an aspect of a sorceress as both Adel and Edea do not have wings of their own.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: branx | Posted: 10/30/2003 10:43:42 PM | Message DetailThey can serve as a strong tie between herself and Ultimecia. I ask: what possible purpose do they serve otherwise? They are not an aspect of a sorceress as both Adel and Edea do not have wings of their own.

Perhaps they do, but we never get to see them in the game. After all, Rinoa's wings only ever came during her limit, so perhaps that's when Adel's could possibly show, or maybe it just varies from sorceress to sorceress.---That's my two cents.Makin Movies, Makin Songs, and Fightin 'Round the World- Russle Crowe from South Park.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 10/31/2003 6:34:43 AM | Message DetailActually, Rinoa has wings on the back of her dress all the time, they're just not REAL wings. Only motifs.

This leads me to believe that the changing of colour of her wings in the end is a purely symbolic picture.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 11/2/2003 9:41:20 PM | Message DetailYes, but you should all notcie that the Angel Wings limit comes directly after Rinoa takes on the Sorceress power.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: SeraphicRadiance007 | Posted: 11/3/2003 1:42:23 AM | Message DetailWho the hell revived this topic?---"It sacrifices souls to summon uneartlhy forces. Unearthly force shall serve and obey thee 'tis named 'Chaos Legion'...From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 11/3/2003 9:31:54 PM | Message DetailWell I AM the one who made the first topic and this one.

I'd say we've done a pretty good job of debating issues.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: Perfect Xero | Posted: 11/3/2003 11:00:54 PM | Message DetailWhat about Ultimecias face flashing over Rinoas?

What about Rinoas wings turning from white to black?What about Ultimecias Castle placed where they promised to meet?

Hmmmm ...

These events happen during the ending, correct? I haven't beat the game in a few years, though I'm pretty close right now, I'll have to comment on those after I view the ending.

I like the theory, it's an interesting one, and you've done a good job of presenting it. I still remain skeptical, but you've given me some things to think about.From: Nicholi Evans | Posted: 11/3/2003 11:33:46 PM | Message DetailI cant believe this topic is still going. It makes me so happy. Every time I've ever posted in a topic like this people just flamed me until I gave up. Anyway, I don't really have the time to read all the posts right now, but one thing I always used to use in my arguments was I believe in the tutorial-information-information-term-Time compression "Sorceress' power from many generations may cross over to give 1 sorceress great strength." I don't remember it exactly but I believe laguna, when he tries to get Rinoa to take Adels power, says something about her being the last sorceress. I remember someone in this game saying she's the last, but I'm just not positive it's Laguna. I don't have the time to play through the game again right now though, because on sunday I leave for the air-force. Though If I cheat my butt off, I may be able to play through the game...I personally find it less likely that Rinoa gave her powers to someone who would use them to destroy the world, than her herself destroying it.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: TidusJoshuaZell | Posted: 11/4/2003 7:36:45 PM | Message Detail

Just to comment on those people saying that Ulty would send the igions to Rinoa...REMEMBER Irvine said that it was not destiny or fate or something like that...he said its all based upon thier decisions. So if Present Squall and Irvine were too slow to save Rinoa, then she would die and so would Ulty if Ulty were Rinoa. I never thought of this theory until i read it here. You guys make valid points. BUt i dont think that Rinoa is Ulty because there isnt enough information to support it. Yes there are tidbits but Ulty was too far into the future for Rinoa to be her. Maybe they will use this theory for a possible sequel? Final Fantasy VIII-2? In this one, things happen the same way again caues of Ulty, but this time you're in the future and you gotta kill ulty or something. It chronicles the tale of the white seeds trying to kill ulty in the future..but in the end you die...then you get to play as squall and them and you get to see the "other side" through rinoas eyes.in the final battle you fight ulty as squall and them but then after a certain point you fight as ulty and gotta fight squall and them and then at another certain point you are squall again and you gotta kill ulty---

HenShin-A-Go-Go-BABY!!! "Navigate and I will steer into the sun, we will run" -Tidus McCoyFrom: TidusJoshuaZell | Posted: 11/4/2003 7:38:08 PM | Message Detailas you finish off ulty, you go into her perspective and stuff. you leak out the info of you are rinoa and stuff and then rinoa finds out. then you gotta like find a way to get rinoas powers gone. you finally go through missions and get odine to make a machine where her powers are removed. they are kept in a box and sent into outer space...and every other "sorceress's" powers are sent there too. GAme ends---HenShin-A-Go-Go-BABY!!! "Navigate and I will steer into the sun, we will run" -Tidus McCoyFrom: TidusJoshuaZell | Posted: 11/4/2003 7:40:58 PM | Message DetailI heard somewhere that they meant part 8 to be the first one with a sequel but since most poeple gave it bad reviews they decided not to...anyways..if you follow my story they can even make a part 3. Then they can make a Final Fantasy 8-3 where some one turns evil and goes into space and gets these powers...and is the ultimate sorceress and basically destorys everything. you are the one of the few survivors who gets sent back in time you gotta kill rinoa to make sure that um...machine is never made but shes got squall and all them with her. I dont know..something.---HenShin-A-Go-Go-BABY!!! "Navigate and I will steer into the sun, we will run" -Tidus McCoyFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 11/6/2003 6:18:08 AM | Message DetailBad reviews?

It got 5 stars in Offical Playstation Magazine, Gamespot gave it a 9.5, and IGN gives it a solid 9.

The game sold more copies right off than Final Fantasy VII. It was a hit, and "Final Fantasy VIII's story is the best the series - and likely the genre - has ever seen." - Gamespot.

If they were ever serious about a sequel then they would have made one.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: BLKheart2000 | Posted: 11/6/2003 4:59:55 PM | Message DetailI'm just curious do you guys just state the same stuff over and over or do you guys find new stuff to say (I was to lazy to read it all so please don't say something like "why don't you go read it all")---It takes a big man to cry, but it takes an even bigger man to laugh at him is negative4 <-- remove when you are on, BLKheartFrom: TidusJoshuaZell | Posted: 11/6/2003 8:52:27 PM | Message DetailBad reviews from the GAMERS. Most people say this game isnt as "good" as FF7. I love this game. My 2nd fav final fantasy game and i've played them all. But most people of the ps1 gen played FF7 and fell in love with that and prefer that one over this one---

HenShin-A-Go-Go-BABY!!! "Navigate and I will steer into the sun, we will run" -Tidus McCoyFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 11/6/2003 9:02:41 PM | Message DetailSquare wouldn't have given a damn about reviews anyway. The game continued to sell like mad for the longest time.

Profit is what it is all about.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: Elrilas | Posted: 11/6/2003 11:21:06 PM | Message DetailThe game sold more copies right off than Final Fantasy VII. It was a hit, and "Final Fantasy VIII's story is the best the series - and likely the genre - has ever seen." - Gamespot.

Now, before I start, I want to make perfectly clear the fact that FFVIII is possibly my third favourite FF in the series, and I like to think of FFVII as the worst of the series. So I'm not a fanboy of either side, just a spectator sitting on the fence. Now, FFVIII's sales don't prove anything. If anything, it simply goes to show how interesting FFVII was. A lot of people bought FFVIII because of FFVII, they were expecting a similar game, which is stupid, seeing as how Square's trademark when making games is the distinct difference between games. As for the story, many would argue that Xenogears and Chrono Cross's stories were far more inspirational, original, unique, interesting and gripping than FFVIII. I am one of those many. After all, the story of Xenogears and Chrono Cross gave many a headache...In a good way. But all of the Final Fantasies are so cliched. Hero with blade goes out to save Heroine, who is linked very explicitly to magic. Look at Cloud and Aeris/Aerith. You can't say Cloud's Buster Sword ain't a blade. And you can't deny Aeris/Aerith being linked closely to magic. She is the last you-know-what on the planet. Squall's Gunblade is definitely a blade as well, and Rinoa is a sorceress, end story. Zidane carries either two Daggers or a huge dual-bladed polearm. Both types of weapons are also blades. Dagger/Garnet is also one of the last you-know-what on the planet. And look at the other stories...Say...FFIV, to grab one randomly. Cecil is a Dark Knight and Paladin. In both jobs, his main weapon is a huge sword. That's definitely considered a blade. Rosa is a White Mage by occupation, end of story. I know of only a few FFs that are not cliched. FFT, FFT:A, FFI, FFIII and FFV are some. Oh, and one more thing...Almost all of FFs's heroes start off with some dark and dirty occupation. FFIV? Dark Knight. FFV? Debatable. FFVI? Thief. FFVII? Mercenary. FFVIII? Mercenary. FFIX? Thief. FFT? Mercenary. Only FFT:A and some others are excluded from this cliche. So I can't say that FFVIII has the best story of the series or the genre. The series is full of boring cliches anyway and the genre has better stories.From: shroudedg | Posted: 11/7/2003 2:44:17 AM | Message DetailWhat about Ultimecias face flashing over Rinoas?What about Rinoas wings turning from white to black?What about Ultimecias Castle placed where they promised to meet?

You wouldn't happen to have some screenshots..cus I'm a bit interested...although I do recall Rinoa's face changing into Edeas at the end.((Is that what you're referring to or am I mistaken??))

Or are you gonna tell a lazy old user to play the game again??

---I'm good in bed------I could sleep for dayswww.geocities.com/finalfantasyviilove/Main.htmFrom: Elrilas | Posted: 11/7/2003 3:32:11 AM | Message DetailWorld Trade Center is destroyed-Someone goes back in time and stops the planes, then returns.

In your view, when he returned to his timeline, the World Trade Center would still be destroyed, but still standing in ANOTHER timeline.

You mean, pull off a Chrono Cross stunt? That's highly plausible and possible...Imagine...If someone went into the past and altered it so that it's changed significantly...Then there might be two worlds. The one that existed before and the one that now exists after . Alternately, we could think of time as an alternate dimension. Like, years pass like frames in a camera. So if you were to step back into a certain year, or a certain frame, you could alter things to your liking, like how you edit a frame in the memory of a digital camera. Only slight things in the immediate past and future would be affected. Like if you were to alter a frame in a camera, you wouldn't be able to do it perfectly, because the previous and following frames wouldn't fit in with the one you altered. By this theory, we can say that although Ultimecia tried to kill Rinoa several times, she probably knew that she would survive, because of the frame by frame theory. Sure, she'd be a little shaken in the immediate future, but she'd still live. She could also have done it to throw suspicion off her. Maybe in the far future, everybody hunts her, making her job difficult, though I find that unbelievable. So she goes into the past and attacks herself, so that when she comes into her sorceress powers and tries to take over the world, nobody will realize until it's too late. An alternative way of thinking would be...Rinoa turns into Ultimecia. Her heart aches for Squall, for his death, for her transformation. Heck, maybe her grief alters her. If you guys have read "The Celestial Zone", that theory could come into play too. You know, how evil energy alters one's looks. So if Sorceresses are really immortal, maybe Squall and others died while she was still alive. Perhaps she can't control immortality. So her grief at all this builds up, changing her physical appearance. Then she finds out that she can go into the past. She goes into the past, and tries to kill herself before she comes into power, to spare herself the heartache. Oh, and before any of you start mercilessly flaming me, all these are my opinions, and my theories. I'm only expressing what may be, not what will be. So, feel free to point out any errors in my theory. But don't make an ass out of you and me and go flaming my theories to high hell.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/7/2003 6:31:56 AM | Message DetailI'm just curious do you guys just state the same stuff over and over or do you guys

find new stuff to say (I was to lazy to read it all so please don't say something like "why don't you go read it all")

Well, we have to state the same stuff over and over, BECAUSE people don't read the whole topic. So people jump in on the back and ask the same questions that have been asked many times before.

We find new stuff to say as time progresses, new ideas and such are formed with time.

You wouldn't happen to have some screenshots

Ugh, no, sorry, I have no idea where to get those screenshots, sorry.So, yes, I have to tell you to play the game again, unless someone else can help.

So if Sorceresses are really immortal, maybe Squall and others died while she was still alive. Perhaps she can't control immortality. So her grief at all this builds up, changing her physical appearance.

Exactly.

Then she finds out that she can go into the past. She goes into the past, and tries to kill herself before she comes into power, to spare herself the heartache.

Now that is certainly an interesting theory. But why would she then want to compress time, if her only goal was to die?

By the way, PLEASE use paragraphs next time you write a long post!

---"Don't be hasty"From: Perfect Xero | Posted: 11/7/2003 7:41:01 AM | Message DetailSo if Sorceresses are really immortal, maybe Squall and others died while she was still alive. Perhaps she can't control immortality.

You kill something like 5 sorceresses during the course of the game, I don't see how they could be considered immortal.

---"When you fall down a bottomless pit, you die of starvation."From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/7/2003 10:31:55 AM | Message DetailSorry, you're right, I should of gone into more details:

It is possible that a Sorceress will not die as long as she has her powers.

Edea says: "In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her powers".This can mean that a Sorceress can literally not die at all while she has her powers.

---

"Don't be hasty"From: Perfect Xero | Posted: 11/7/2003 10:28:25 PM | Message DetailDoesn't she say that they can't 'die in peace' unless they pass on their powers? Either way, it seems to me that a sorceress who has been mortally wounded has no choice other than passing on their powers. Otherwise Ultimecia and Adel could've kept on fighting. What I was saying, is that a sorceress can die, so regardless, I doubt that Death would've been a motivation for Rinoa to go back in time ...

I think it's fairly clear that Ultimecia's goal was to become a God-like being via Time Compression. If she'd succeeded, she'd have amazing power, enough to shape and mold the world as she saw fit.

---"When you fall down a bottomless pit, you die of starvation."From: Perfect Xero | Posted: 11/7/2003 10:59:20 PM | Message DetailSorry, I misread your post, SB, I thought you left out the part about dying in peace. Please disregard that part of my post.

---"When you fall down a bottomless pit, you die of starvation."From: Can Eater | Posted: 11/7/2003 11:18:21 PM | Message DetailAs you say yourself, the game says "die in peace," that doesn't mean that they can't die at all. They can sill die while not in peace. If she does not die in peace, than she simply dies as the same cold hearted witch she was.

The equation of 'Sorceress dies in peace = Dead' does not work both ways. 'Dead = Sorceress dies in peace' is not necessarily true. That is not an if-and-only-if statement.

That works almost exactly the same as the whole saying of "A person who is decapitated is dead. But a person who is dead is not necessarliy decapitated."

The game says "In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her powers."It does not say "In order for a Sorceress to die, she must give up her powers." Or even "In order for a Sorceress to die, she must die in peace."

Therefore, the logic that lead to the idea of a Sorceress being basically immortal as long as she still has her powers is fundamentally flawed.---[This message was deleted because some whiny teenager can't handle the real world]From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/8/2003 1:35:48 AM | Message DetailI think it's fairly clear that Ultimecia's goal was to become a God-like being via Time Compression. If she'd succeeded, she'd have amazing power, enough to shape and mold the world as she saw fit.

I disagree. Ultimecia never says anything, or hints at wanting to become a God. Besides, it says that she "may" receive lots of power.

Also, even if she were God-like, it would be all alone. Everybody else would be

dead(or non-existant, whichever).You would have to be pretty messed up to want that, messed up enough to the point where attempting to kill her past self isn't so in-plausible.

As you say yourself, the game says "die in peace," that doesn't mean that they can't die at all. They can sill die while not in peace. If she does not die in peace, than she simply dies as the same cold hearted witch she was.

I never said it did. But that is one of the possible interpretations. And the fact of the matter is, we never see a Sorceress die WITHOUT giving away her powers, so the weights are tipped to my side here, whether you like it or not. But I am not saying it is the 100% truth, I am only saying that it is a possible(and plausible) interpretation.

The game says "In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her powers."It does not say "In order for a Sorceress to die, she must give up her powers." Or even "In order for a Sorceress to die, she must die in peace."

Therefore, the logic that lead to the idea of a Sorceress being basically immortal as long as she still has her powers is fundamentally flawed.

I know it doesn't say that. But you can't deny that "dying in peace" is a pretty vague description, and can tip both ways, and as I said earlier, the weights are tipped to my side.

But, to better present my case, here is my "paper" on Sorceress Immortality. Please go ahead and point out any flaws that AREN'T just a matter of interpretation.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/8/2003 1:43:58 AM | Message DetailSORCERESS LIFESPAN

One of the crucial points to support both the R=U and Branched Timeline Theory is that of the lifespan of a Sorceress. Can a Sorceress live very long, or is she actually immortal?

It is made quite clear in the game that a Sorceress can be killed like a human(seeing you do actually kill 2 Sorceresses and attempt to kill another one).However, lets look at a line uttered very near the end of the game. A line uttered by Edea, and a line that if the truth about it would solve so incredibly much:

Edea- "In order for a Sorceress to die in peace, she must first give up her powers".

What could this mean? I see two options:

1 - If a Sorceress dies while she still has her Sorceress powers inside her, she will "sleep badly"(or whatever way you wish to put it).

2 - While a Sorceress has her Sorceress powers inside her, she cannot die, meaning

that ultimately killing a Sorceress means the birth of a new Sorceress.

Now, who is it that starts SeeD? A Sorceress(Edea). She creates SeeD to kill any Sorceress that goes evil(this proves that a Sorceress can be killed normally).Now, this could still mean that both options are possible.

Edea feels strongly about not letting any child becoming a Sorceress(demonstrated in the scene where Ultimecia gives away her powers). If point 2 were true she could come along to every assasination, but if not she'd have to give her powers to a new girl to take up the task, which contradicts the scene at the Orphanage. However, Edea getting an "heir" is never proposed anywhere, right? Well, Adel, another Sorceress, kidnaps Ellone to use her as an heir, but that could be out of fear of assasination(she was, after all, at war with the rest of the world, and had turned her country against her), and not necessarily because she was getting too old.

However, if point 1 was true, Edea could die normally and not fear any random child becoming a Sorceress(provided she trust SeeD to know what they're doing).On a sidenote, if Edea was going to die normally, then would she find an heir, or accept a bad death?

Now, the second proposition does seem more logical, BUT there is an event that can speak against it.When Adel is defeated, she is not killed, instead, great trouble is gone to having her sealed. Option 2 provides a very reasonable explanation:Killing Adel would ultimately lead to another Sorceress!Of course, it could be that Laguna just found it in the good of his heart to not kill her, or perhaps, even more plausibly, they wanted to do research on her, so as to be better prepared for a new Sorceress. In the Lunar Space Station it does seem like they're doing more than just check the locks.Of course, they could still be doing research on her the other way, because since they HAD to seal her, why not do research? Either way, it is easy to see that they DID conduct research on Adel(just look at items like the Odines Bangle).

It's also worth mentioning that an NPC in Esthar, informs us that "Sealing is the way of Esthar". Of course, this could be because of the thing that killing Adel meant a new Sorceress.

* When the party is preparing to attack Adel inside the Lunatic Pandora and go into the time compressed zone, either Laguna or Odine (I forget which one) states "When Adel dies she'll need someone to tranfer her powers to. Rinoa, are you up for it?" Or something to that effect. This shows that Adel needed to transfer her powers before death. A way of seeing this without using the Sorceress Immortality is saying that he means she needs to give up her powers to someone so that their plan can commence(their plan needed someone to take Adels powers to Ultimecia would possess that person).

* In his mission briefing, Laguna says that Sorceresses are still human. Does not this also mean aging? Perhaps, but perhaps it means that they can still be killed like humans.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/8/2003 1:44:24 AM | Message DetailAs you can see, the Sorceress Immortality theory is nowhere near ridiculous, and is all based off in-game facts.If you can find any flaws that show how this theory cannot be(the way it is presented here), go ahead.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Elrilas | Posted: 11/8/2003 6:33:49 AM | Message DetailTherefore, the logic that lead to the idea of a Sorceress being basically immortal as long as she still has her powers is fundamentally flawed.

Thus producing a systemic anomaly in the equation. All I can say to this is...Lol!Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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From: Elrilas | Posted: 11/8/2003 6:46:31 AM | Message DetailIt is made quite clear in the game that a Sorceress can be killed like a human(seeing you do actually kill 2 Sorceresses and attempt to kill another one).

Which really makes you wonder...They can die like Humans, as in, if they get slashed or shot, they die. But do their powers prevent them from being poisoned to death? Can they even bleed to death? It's obvious that they can die from mortal wounds...But what about internal ones? What if a blood vessel burst? Would the die normally? Hmmm...

1 - If a Sorceress dies while she still has her Sorceress powers inside her, she will "sleep badly"(or whatever way you wish to put it).

The sorceresses you kill when you reach the time compressed world...Is it ever stated that they're real...Things , for lack of a better word...And not figments of imagination? Because if they are, one interesting way to look at it would be that they are the restless spirits of past Sorceresses who did not pass on their powers. After all, they look way ugly, even by sorceress standards...And they make funny noises...Stupid point, I know...But still...

2 - While a Sorceress has her Sorceress powers inside her, she cannot die, meaning that ultimately killing a Sorceress means the birth of a new Sorceress.

This theory is very possible...Adel dies, Rinoa comes into power. Ultimecia dies, Edea comes into power...And whatever other examples you can think of, if they exist.

Killing Adel would ultimately lead to another Sorceress!

Of course, it could be that Laguna just found it in the good of his heart to not kill her, or perhaps, even more plausibly, they wanted to do research on her, so as to be better prepared for a new Sorceress. In the Lunar Space Station it does seem like they're doing more than just check the locks.

Every bit possible. But what about this...Remember the scene where Laguna pushes her into the sealing device? Perhaps because of her powers contradicting with that of the sealing device, the only way to kill her would be to release her, and that would be too dangerous. This is, of course, another groundless theory.

It's also worth mentioning that an NPC in Esthar, informs us that "Sealing is the way of Esthar". Of course, this could be because of the thing that killing Adel meant a new Sorceress.

Does he or she mention when this way started? Because if he or she didn't, that could mean Laguna introduced this tradition, out of the goodness of his heart. This could mean that they didn't seal Adel because of Theory 2, but because of Laguna's clemency. This is, of course, assumption...To make it worst, I'm making assumptions on the conscience and character of a video game character...

* In his mission briefing, Laguna says that Sorceresses are still human. Does not this also mean aging? Perhaps, but perhaps it means that they can still be killed like humans

Maybe he means...Their emotions? They're still humans, they can still feel and think and all those human things.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/8/2003 3:56:52 PM | Message DetailWhich really makes you wonder...They can die like Humans, as in, if they get slashed or shot, they die. But do their powers prevent them from being poisoned to death? Can they even bleed to death? It's obvious that they can die from mortal wounds...But what about internal ones? What if a blood vessel burst? Would the die normally? Hmmm...

A question that will probably never be answered, I'm afraid.

Because if they are, one interesting way to look at it would be that they are the restless spirits of past Sorceresses who did not pass on their powers.

That is a very interesting theory. I quite like it, I must say.

Perhaps because of her powers contradicting with that of the sealing device, the only way to kill her would be to release her, and that would be too dangerous.

Maybe....but IMO it seems rather in-plausible that they couldn't affect(in other words, kill) Adel through the device. I find it more plausible that they hold a rather strong level of control over whatever is inside(simply because they can't afford the Sorceress escaping).

Does he or she mention when this way started?

I'm afraid not. The NPC says something like:"We do not kill in Esthar, we seal. Sealing is the way of Esthar". Or something similar. You get the main message anyway.

Maybe he means...Their emotions? They're still humans, they can still feel and think and all those human things.

Could be. I think I'll go check the script to see what comes before and after that sentence.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Amra7 | Posted: 11/8/2003 10:47:27 PM | Message DetailSir Bahamut:

There is no pointless arguments.

Ok... if you say so...

Perhaps if you actually looked in the topic before coming with statements like that, you would know that, instead of being so dam prejudice.

Wow. I'm detecting some hostility. Perhaps you took the word "pointless" offensively? It's just my opinion, since in most cases the point is to convince others that you're right, which doesn't happen much (from my own experience). If your point is to have fun, or understand the plot better ( or convince people) than by all means go ahead.

Maybe you could take your own advice in your sig, and not call me "dam prejudice" (hypocrisy...sigh) when you don't even understand the nature of what I meant, and don't even know for a fact that I haven't read any of the topic.

We have not said it is true. We have not said there is proof(because there isn't any either way). We have only said it is an interesting possibility, that is much more probably than [insert name here] is Ultimecia, and that it is more interesting than Ultimecia being just some random Sorceress.

I agree with it being a possibility, and the lack of proof. I'm guessing by "probably" that you mean "probable." So the core of this debate is to show which theory is more probable?

Although Rinoa not becoming Ultimecia is perhaps more plausible, it is not necessarily the most desirable option.Every player has to decide for him/herself.

So uh.. what is it you guys are debating?? If each player just decides for themselves, then why is there a debate? Just need some clarification.

Sure he's an ass at points,

Only when I must be

Your sense of necessity is sickly twisted. I guess I'm not the only one that finds your tone unnecessarily flippant. Lighten up maybe? Well, to be honest I don't really expect you to do so. If I seemed offensive to you, then I am indeed sorry, and I'm guessing that you'll just flame me like last time.

From: Can Eater | Posted: 11/9/2003 12:28:23 AM | Message DetailI don't understand it. Sir Bahamut is trying to be scientific about his theory(yes, I know he didn't think it up originally), right? Then why is he being so one-sided with it. Whenever any serious scientist comes up with a new theory, the first thing they're supposed to do is try and poke holes in it. Never once have I seen SB try to contradict his theory. It's always someone else who steps in and offers a more logical look at the situation, then SB comes rushing in to cry "No no no." I think the least he could do is simply admit that the sceptic explanation of just one circumstance is more probable (hell, I'll even settle with more logical).---[This message was deleted because some whiny teenager can't handle the real world]From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/9/2003 4:36:54 AM | Message DetailMaybe you could take your own advice in your sig, and not call me "dam prejudice" (hypocrisy...sigh) when you don't even understand the nature of what I meant, and don't even know for a fact that I haven't read any of the topic.

My sincerest apologies. But you get kind of paranoid when you're the only one out of hundreds here who actually stands up for this case. Everybody else has a tendency to dismiss it simply because other people said so.

I agree with it being a possibility, and the lack of proof. I'm guessing by "probably" that you mean "probable." So the core of this debate is to show which theory is more probable?

More like trying to show that it is possible , so as to stop all the "Rinoa can't poissibly be Ultimecia just think abiut......etc." comments, which appear so very frequently.

So uh.. what is it you guys are debating?? If each player just decides for themselves, then why is there a debate? Just need some clarification.

Because not everyvody believes the theory can actually be true without violating in-game events/facts.

Your sense of necessity is sickly twisted. I guess I'm not the only one that finds your tone unnecessarily flippant. Lighten up maybe? Well, to be honest I don't really expect you to do so. If I seemed offensive to you, then I am indeed sorry, and I'm guessing that you'll just flame me like last time.

I apologize again. But really, try and put yourself in my situation. I have been for the last year explaining the same things over and over and over and over to different people in the same topic/s, to users who come in and say "This is a pointless/pathetic/groundless argument".There is a limit to every mans patience, and mine was reached somehwere last topic.

I apologize though, but when you saisd the discussion was pointless, I reacted instantly, based on experience/instinct or whatever you want to call it, and for that I am sorry.

Then why is he being so one-sided with it.

Whoah there, in case you didn't notice, I provided as many different viewpoints as I could in my "paper" back there. I have been arguing against the theory for longer than you have, but I cannot see any flaw in my "paper" and have come to believe that the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory is 100% possible.I say this having feverishly argued BOTH sides of the case for ages.

Whenever any serious scientist comes up with a new theory, the first thing they're supposed to do is try and poke holes in it.

Which is what I've been doing since long before you got here.

Never once have I seen SB try to contradict his theory.

In this topic, no.

Anyway, what are you really talking about? Has there been anything I have said recently that someone else has explained better? Or are you just dissapointed that I'm not arguing both sides right now? Or are you talking about my "paper"?Please specify.

Also, I used ages on that "paper", amking sure I had made no mistakes, and that I had noticed and removed/edited any flaws I could find. The result is what you see last page, and I am not capable of doing any more with it.

If you, however, are going to stand on the other side and claim me wrong, the least you could do is argue yourself, instead oif expecting me to argue on both sides at the same time!

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/9/2003 4:39:05 AM | Message DetailI think the least he could do is simply admit that the sceptic explanation of just one circumstance is more probable (hell, I'll even settle with more logical).

Are you talking about anythning special.

Also, just to make it 100% clear:

That "paper" you see on the previous page, is the result of an entire topic of discussion, where I argued AGAINST it(and for it, but mostly against).So, I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but I can't poke any more holes in it than I already have.

---

"Don't be hasty"From: Amra7 | Posted: 11/9/2003 12:00:07 PM | Message DetailSir Bahamut:

I apologize again. But really, try and put yourself in my situation. I have been for the last year explaining the same things over and over and over and over to different people in the same topic/s, to users who come in and say "This is a pointless/pathetic/groundless argument".There is a limit to every mans patience, and mine was reached somehwere last topic.I apologize though, but when you saisd the discussion was pointless, I reacted instantly, based on experience/instinct or whatever you want to call it, and for that I am sorry.

Yeah, I read most of the topic and can see the source of your frustration. Repeating things DOES get annoying.

More like trying to show that it is possible, so as to stop all the "Rinoa can't poissibly be Ultimecia just think abiut......etc." comments, which appear so very frequently.

I see.. Thanks for clarifying the purpose.

Well, as for my personal stance on this issue, at first I didn't even think of the possibility of R=U. But after reading most of the 10 pages of this topic I can see that it is a viable possibility.

I was going to post some evidence that might counter the R=U theory (such as the time span between Ulti and Rinoa, sorceress' age, iguions killing rinoa and thus ultimecia, facial changes, etc.), but I went back and every counter that I could think of was already addressed and refuted, logically and based on in-game evidence, and I accept that.

We find new stuff to say as time progresses, new ideas and such are formed with time.

Well, since I'm already convinced, after looking over the bulk of evidence and the failing counters of R=U, I probably won't be here much. But new ideas are usually interesting to view and I'll look over and post in the discussion once in a while (in Part 3, if you guys decide to continue). From: Elrilas | Posted: 11/9/2003 3:46:12 PM | Message DetailWell, since I'm already convinced, after looking over the bulk of evidence and the failing counters of R=U, I probably won't be here much. But new ideas are usually interesting to view and I'll look over and post in the discussion once in a while (in Part 3, if you guys decide to continue).

Oh, now that I've taken a personal interest in the topic, rest assured, this topic will live for a long time. New counters and ideas come to me every few days.From: Amra7 | Posted: 11/9/2003 4:13:06 PM | Message DetailElrilas

Oh, now that I've taken a personal interest in the topic, rest assured, this topic will

live for a long time. New counters and ideas come to me every few days.

Looking forward to it....

So far the only argument that I think is a little shaky is the one concerning the Iguions.

So Ulti knew that Rinoa would come out alive, then to what extent would her knowledge reach? To time compression?

In that case, she would know that Squall and co. would make it to the point where she does time compression alive, so wouldn't she change things to insure Squall's death?

All the time theories and explanations are confusing and purely speculative, since we really don't know which theory the creators chose (IF they chose one...my personal belief is that they didn't know what the hell they were doing concerning time travel and paradoxes).From: Amra7 | Posted: 11/9/2003 9:07:06 PM | Message DetailAh, about the Iguions. I looked at it from a point of view in which Ultimecia wanted to kill Squall. This is supported by the Iguion's, Edea's, and Ulti's attempts to kill Squall...but what about Ulti's knowledge of the future? Since she knew Squall would not die in those fights.. then maybe she wanted Squall to live?

She might have wanted him to live, since I remember something about Rinoa telling Squall that she wanted him to be the one to kill her, which means Ulti might have WANTED Squall to kill her (which contradicts her fighting Squall with super powerful spells, when she could have simply let him stab her...).

Gahh.. finding out motives when we aren't given any concrete time explanation is mind-boggling and confusing.

Hmm.. and does anyone know what Ulti is talking about when you almost finish her off? It seemed interesting and nonsensical, but I probably have to look at the script later to analyze it better.

Well, anyway I'm just throwing some stuff out there so any comments and clarification/refutes would be appreciated.

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From: Elrilas | Posted: 11/10/2003 4:32:10 AM | Message DetailAh, about the Iguions. I looked at it from a point of view in which Ultimecia wanted

to kill Squall. This is supported by the Iguion's, Edea's, and Ulti's attempts to kill Squall...but what about Ulti's knowledge of the future? Since she knew Squall would not die in those fights.. then maybe she wanted Squall to live?

No...I don't think Ultimecia wanted to kill Squall at all. If she wanted only to kill Squall, she could have done so at the end of Disc 1. She very clearly killed him...And yet she brought him back to life. Pointless, if you ask me. And you can't say she brought him back just to find out what SeeD is really about, since there are a host of other people who are more likely to find out. Like, why not torture Zell or Quistis? Zell is very enthusiastic about SeeD, and Quistis is an instructor. Under the circumstances, both of them should know more about SeeD than Squall. So, it's my belief that Ultimecia wants to keep Squall alive, no matter the cost. Still, the Iguions puzzle me...I still think it was meant to kill Rinoa. You know, read my former theory about Ultimecia, her heartache, and her thoughts on how to prevent it. And you guys forget one thing...Remember what Ellone says? I recall she says that when you go into the past, you can't change it...I somehow remember she also says Ultimecia doesn't know this. We, the players, know that no matter what is done, the future will still remain the same...At least, in FF8. But Ultimecia doesn't know that. So maybe she wants to spare herself the heartache and kill herself in the past. What she doesn't know is that no matter what, Fate or History or Time will somehow find a way to save her, because she exists in the future. Weird, I know, but it's as close as I can get to concrete evidence. Try to remember everything Odine, Laguna, Ellone, Ultimecia and Rinoa says. They are the key characters to unravelling this mystery. Without them, we'll never figure this out.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/10/2003 6:39:54 AM | Message DetailI also agree that Ultimecia clearly didn't want to kill Squall, or know the reason why SeeD exists(she would already know that in the future, just notice the dead SeeD on her beach).

IMO, it could either be:

*Ultimecia wanting to make sure she and Squall can be together in the past(which fits a lot in with the "love" theme).

*Ultimecia wanting to change the past so that she doesn't exist(which kind of fits in with the whole "You can't change the past" theme, but fits less in with the "love" theme).

Ultimecia having gone crazy could of course be a point, but it is a bit too vague(even though reasons are there) IMO.

.I somehow remember she also says Ultimecia doesn't know this.

I'll have to check up on that one.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/10/2003 7:09:53 AM | Message DetailI found some interesting quotes:

Edea: Ultimecia is a very fearful sorceress. Her heart is filled with anger and hate..

Since Edea was possessed by Ultimecia, we can assume this is the truth. This certainly backs up the theory of her wish to die(not to mention her motives otuside the theory: to get rid of everyone that hates Sorceresses etc.).

Rinoa: I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I just want to stay here with you...

Possibly meaning that this is what Ultimecia/Rinoa was attempting with Time Compression. But with anger and hatred? It's probably pulling it too far to say that Ultimecia deceived Edea.

I looked through the entire missions briefing, the conversations with Ellone in space, and several other places, but couldn't find Laguna saying tha Sorceresses are still human, or any reference about Ultimecia not knowing that the past can't be changed(and I read every conversation with Ellone, Laguna and Odine from disc 3 and out).

The first sentence there I might have missed, but I doubt I missed the second. So unless someone else can find them, I have to for the time being dismiss them as non-existant.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/10/2003 7:12:04 AM | Message DetailAnd Elrilas, please use paragraphs! Your posts are very tiring to read without them!

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 11/10/2003 7:20:39 AM | Message DetailTwenty-five more posts and this will be auto-closed.

I'd start a third if anyone felt like this could still go on.

Bahamut, reminder that I'd like this topic in one large file as well. Once this is closed, I'll write up the full FAQ. I just need a reminder of everything that is going in it.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/10/2003 8:27:37 AM | Message DetailDon't worry, Sideswipe, I'll put it all into Word.

If we make a new version, I think it would be a very good idea to put a Frequently Asked Questions section on the first page, where we answer(or at least offer explanations) for questions that appear so very frequently(like "Why would Rinoa try and kill herself in the past? etc.").

Also, including the Sorceress Immortality paper I wrote might be a good idea.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 11/10/2003 7:50:19 PM | Message DetailGood idea. We should set up how it will appear.

And don't worry, you're paper is the forerunner of the FAQ.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: Elrilas | Posted: 11/11/2003 2:53:39 AM | Message DetailAnd Elrilas, please use paragraphs! Your posts are very tiring to read without them!

Will do, boss.

I'd start a third if anyone felt like this could still go on.

Please, do.

And don't worry, you're paper is the forerunner of the FAQ.

Hey, what about my theories?! Lol. Seriously though, Bahamut's paper is impressive...How long did it take you to write it?

From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/11/2003 5:22:31 AM | Message DetailThank you for your kind words.

Hmm, the first version I wrote of it took me an hour or two, and the second(the one I posted here) took only an hour or so.

The reason for this rather short time, is that I had been discussing it for so long before, so it was no problem jotting it down on paper.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Hellscream83 | Posted: 11/11/2003 7:54:58 AM | Message DetailNow, I did read all the other posts, and some thoughts came to mind. Now, we don´t know if Squall died in disc 1, we saw him get pretty badly wounded(and I mean pretty badly wounded). I could be that Ultimecia had some unknown purpose for him, so she kept him alive by healing him or reviving him. And, now about Ultimecia being filled with anger and hatred, it could be that someone she knew or loved, a friend or lover, got killed( probably by Seed, since she hates em so). She then wanted this person back, so she started this whole thing. And about Rinoa not wanting the future, it could be that Ultimecia showed her somehow, when she possessed her, something that Rinoa didn´t want to happen. Or she could simply be talking about that Esthar would confine her, and therefore, she wanted to stay in space. Just theories, but it could be possible. Reading the other posts, I´ve gone from, No way, never, to maybe, could be possible. ---

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From: attackreels88 | Posted: 11/11/2003 8:12:20 AM | Message Detailthis is a good gameFrom: attackreels88 | Posted: 11/11/2003 8:12:48 AM | Message Detailthis is a good game

- attackreels88From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 11/11/2003 10:40:47 PM | Message DetailPerhaps Squall had been killed on a mission for SeeD. Over time, Rinoa interpereted that as SeeD's fault. SeeD being responsible for the death of the man she loved. As her memories faded and all that was left with emotion, she only knew of her hatred for SeeD.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: Elrilas | Posted: 11/12/2003 4:35:41 AM | Message DetailYou know, we should give ourselves a name. You know, us who devote almost all our time to debating this issue. I'm sick and tired of hearing us being referred to as "Those Rinoa=Ultimecia fanatics" or "Those fanboys who think Rinoa=Ultimecia".From: Can Eater | Posted: 11/12/2003 4:50:08 AM | Message DetailWhat would you rather be called? "Those illogical putz?"

Ahhh.. but seriously folks...

I think all of you (those promoting the R=U theory) would do good by taking in a few words from our ol' pal Vil. Soaking them up like a sponge and just see how it floats in your sink...

" it's quite unsubstantiated, and requires a lot of assumptions - increasingly shaky in themselves - to even start to make sense.

When your theory requires other theories to be true, and those theories require yet more theories to be true, and even those theories require that you interpret matters in one very specific way, and disregard practicality and 'common sense' ... "---[This message was deleted because some whiny teenager can't handle the real world]From: Elrilas | Posted: 11/12/2003 5:00:54 AM | Message DetailAh yes...Good old Can Eater...Always a sucker for logic, eh? I've seen your posts...If I am correct in my assumption, you do not believe in the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory, yes? You, who alone, of all people, hold logic in high esteem. You and Vil are two people whom I will respect, no matter what you believe, because you two are the

singular 10% on this message board who can type like you have a three digit IQ. There are many others too, like Sir Bahamut...But by and large, this board has fell into the hands of gamers who failed first grade English.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/12/2003 6:14:46 AM | Message DetailI think all of you (those promoting the R=U theory) would do good by taking in a few words from our ol' pal Vil. Soaking them up like a sponge and just see how it floats in your sink...

No thank you. I have seen all that Vil has to say on this, and I even talked to him directly about it.And from that, I say that the theory is possible. He agreed on that, but in his opinion it was assuming too much.Of course, I have no idea if he has actually read this topic or not.

Please note that I have never said I actually believe it, only said that it is possible.

" it's quite unsubstantiated, and requires a lot of assumptions - increasingly shaky in themselves - to even start to make sense.

Well.....since Vilurum has not posted that on this series of topics, I can't assume he has seen all the new theories, and can thus not see this statement as relevant at all.If he is referring to the old theory, then he is quite right, but I disagree if he means the theories in this topic.

When your theory requires other theories to be true, and those theories require yet more theories to be true, and even those theories require that you interpret matters in one very specific way, and disregard practicality and 'common sense' ... "

Ok, lets take a look at all the theories we need to make it possible:

*Sorceress Lifespan - I wrote a paper on that, which shows that is not as in-plausible as you might think.

*Motives - Based on the above theory, the motives are endless, some obviously stand out more.

*Rinoa's capability to slightly alter her appearance - Based off the fact that a much lesser Sorceress(Edea) could change the length of her hair, this is not entirely in-plausible.

Wow, a total of three theories. Based of individual in-game interpretations. And no matter what you think, you thinking that they are "against common sense" doesn't mean it is.Some author once said "If five million people believe a stupid thing, doesn't mean it's not stupid"(or something similar).The logic goes both ways.

Also, I would be interested to hear what it is you find so incredibly illogical about the theories here. Because so far, your points have been countered, and your opinions don't really count anyway, so I want to know what is still bothering you.

It can't be a bad counter, because surely you would have reacted on that. I hope you're not another one of those people too stubborn to see the theory for what it is.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Can Eater | Posted: 11/12/2003 9:36:53 AM | Message DetailI see the theory for what it is. I just take Vil's point of view on the whole matter. (And by the way, that last quote you took sounded like you were speaking it to me as if it were I who said it, but that was still part of the quote I took from Vil. Just thought I'd point that out.)

Nah... I'm just trying to drag out the topic so I can get the elusive 500th post.

But seriously folks...It's just that so many individual scenes in the game require all of these theories to be valid and true. Sure, if all those theories were true, then R=U could most certainly be possible, but having all the theories true is kind of farfetched. (On a side note, I also find the theory of the Big Bang kind of farfetched. I just think there's a better way to explain some of the observations the theory is based on. There are plenty of scientists who would agree.)

With the R=U theory, just as with all other theories, is to be disbelieved until it proven beyond reasonable doubt to be possible. I just don't think that has be provided yet. Also, a theory based on another theory is generally uncredited and not taken completely seriously by the whole. As I said earlier, if every sub-theory were true, then sure, R=U might be possible, but logic tells me that it is highly unlikely.---[This message was deleted because some whiny teenager can't handle the real world]From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/12/2003 12:02:14 PM | Message DetailIt's just that so many individual scenes in the game require all of these theories to be valid and true. Sure, if all those theories were true, then R=U could mostcertainly be possible, but having all the theories true is kind of farfetched.

This is where I disagree. I don't find one way of interpreting a line as a theory that can be proved or disproved. It's just one way of looking at it.If you ask enough people, you are bound to find several people who thought that Edeas last line meant a Sorceress can't die without losing her powers first.It's just one way of looking at it, it's no scientific theory.It's all relative.

But, if your view is different here, then that's fine, and I have to respect that.

(On a side note, I also find the theory of the Big Bang kind of farfetched. I just think there's a better way to explain some of the observations the theory is based on. There are plenty of scientists who would agree.)

Hear, hear! I find it very farfetched, to be honest. It's rather funny though, listening to atheists say how a Big Bang is so much more likely than a God, when the Pope himself embraced the Big Bang theory because it pointed towards a God. But that's another discussion.

With the R=U theory, just as with all other theories, is to be disbelieved until it proven beyond reasonable doubt to be possible.

Well, here opinions may differ. A theory is by definition an idea that cannot be proved, only disproved. This doesn't mean you can't believe a theory that isn't either proved completely(like the world being round) or so good arguments given that it is almost a proof(gravity or general relativity for instance).

In the case of this theory, it is a proven possibility, but certainly not a proven fact, and it never will be, simply because a theory cannot be proven.

However, opinions on the strength/weakness of the arguments will differ from player to player, so every player can make a choice on their standpoint(or try and think of a new theory themselves).You, for instance, have chosen to not believe it, while others have chosen to believe it.And that's all there is to it really: Choice.I said before the point of this topic was to help give people a different choice, another possibility, and it still is.If people have read this argument and made a decision on their standpoint based on it, then the topic has fulfilled it's purpose(or at least the purpose I like to think it has).

But as I said earlier, all points of view should be respected, simply because no side can prove the other wrong.

---"Don't be hasty"From: YuffieGVxx | Posted: 11/19/2003 12:40:25 AM | Message Detail"But as I said earlier, all points of view should be respected, simply because no side can prove the other wrong."

It's ironic to hear you say that. I stopped reading the thread and skipped to the end after the ninth or tenth time you trashed someone for posting an idea you didn't like or something similar.

Funny.

In any case, the game has far too many loopholes and contrived bits of plot to be arguable. Believe whatever you want to believe. Whereas in most games it's a matter of having enough evidence to support your theory, in FF VIII it's more a matter of no one else having enough evidence to support theirs'. Oh, it has an interesting plot and all. But some folks have taken this 'discussion' a little too seriously. If you have an opinion on the matter, great. But the sheer weight of egos on this thread have crushed any semblance of wit right out of it. Oh well.

---"Dead chocobos can't drink water."Livin' La Vida Rappy! - Hrist (HUnewearl) - Ki (FOnewearl) - Mahou (FOmar) -

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From: Elrilas | Posted: 11/19/2003 2:16:47 AM | Message DetailIt's ironic to hear you say that. I stopped reading the thread and skipped to the end after the ninth or tenth time you trashed someone for posting an idea you didn't like or something similar.

Well, I've read all 489 posts...Well, 484, excluding my own posts...And I can say only one thing...He bashes opinions which have holes in them. Now, he said neither side should be said to be wrong because they can't prove the opposition wrong. But in SirBahamut's case, he was able to prove the opposition wrong. You have used the word "ironic" too loosely. Please, consult a dictionary before you use a word that is past your age.From: Sephiroth0209 | Posted: 11/19/2003 4:43:56 AM | Message DetailUltimecia gave her powers to EdeaEdea gave her powers to RinoaRinoa = Ultimecia

its a circle.---What is the difference between a green wall and a red wall?They are both red except for the green one....From: Perfect Xero | Posted: 11/19/2003 8:33:39 PM | Message Detail*Sorceress Lifespan - I wrote a paper on that, which shows that is not as in-plausible as you might think.

Sorceress' seem to age at a normal rate, Edea was a sorceress since childhood (Cid tells you this when you talk to him after the battle with Norg on disc 2).---"When you fall down a bottomless pit, you die of starvation."From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 11/19/2003 8:34:03 PM | Message DetailBut you aren't accounting for the possiblity that Rinoa passed on her powers. She may not be immortal as we believe.

Immortality really shouldn't be used anyway. Long lived is better.---"Is Star Trek dead?" - "Yes, and Berman and Braga are raping the corpse." -MorgaineDaxFrom: ramses | Posted: 11/19/2003 8:44:13 PM | Message DetailI felt the powers, rather than Ultimecia/Rinoa, went full circle by passing through many different sorceresses.

Ultimecia to Edea to Rinoa to intervening sorceresses to Ultimecia

As for Ultimecia=Rinoa, I can't see that this conundrum is answered in the game.---There is no substitute for good manners--except fast reflexes.From: rapap | Posted: 11/20/2003 4:58:00 AM | Message Detail*blink* This brings back memories. Have been reading the topic backwards and I'll try to comment while there are still posts left.

Sir Bahamut:The small reference with Laguna saying that a sorceress was still human is during the party's questioning of Laguna when you first meet him in Esthar (I believe you have to ask him 'What are you doing here?') In his description of Adel's sealing he says something along the lines of 'Despite all her powers she was still human', commenting on how easily Adel was fooled into going after an illusionary Ellone.

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but hope it points you in the right direction. ---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/20/2003 5:35:32 AM | Message DetailSorceress' seem to age at a normal rate, Edea was a sorceress since childhood (Cid tells you this when you talk to him after the battle with Norg on disc 2).

But then again, we don't know how old Edea was in her "childhood".

Sir Bahamut:The small reference with Laguna saying that a sorceress was still human is during the party's questioning of Laguna when you first meet him in Esthar (I believe you have to ask him 'What are you doing here?') In his description of Adel's sealing he says something along the lines of 'Despite all her powers she was still human', commenting on how easily Adel was fooled into going after an illusionary Ellone.

This is indeed what I was looking for! Thank you very much for this piece of information, now I can finally present a good explanation to that line. Again, thank you very much.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 11/20/2003 5:57:40 AM | Message DetailSir Bahamut:

But then again, we don't know how old Edea was in her "childhood".

Edea was around 4 or 5 when she first recieved her powers from another soceress (not Ultimecia). I believe she mentions this during one of her scenes at the orphanage, maybe prior to looking for the White SeeD ship.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference

of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 11/20/2003 6:10:11 AM | Message DetailRapap:

No, I think you're wrong. The only mentioning we have of how long ago it was when she got her powers, was "13-15 years ago"(or something similar) and that was referring to Ultimecias powers.

I looked through the conversations with Edea in the beginning of disc3 , and could find what you speak of.I know that the time she stops you when leaving the Orphanage and talks to you, she says what I just mentioned.

Feel free to prove me wrong of course.

Also, shall I make the new topic, with the Frequently Asked Questions section and all, or should I mail it to someone(Sideswipe comes to mind)?

---"Don't be hasty"From: Elrilas | Posted: 11/20/2003 6:11:39 AM | Message DetailEdea was around 4 or 5 when she first recieved her powers from another soceress (not Ultimecia). I believe she mentions this during one of her scenes at the orphanage, maybe prior to looking for the White SeeD ship.

I did a brief scan of the Game Script, and found nothin' of the sort...I'll do a more thorough scan shortly, but I doubt I'll turn up anythin' else.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 |

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