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Public Housing Repositioning Strategies for Small Public Housing

Agencies, Part 4 - 11/21/19

Christina Payamps-Smith: Good afternoon. Thank you for joining today's "Public Housing

Repositioning Strategies for Small Public Housing Agencies" webinar series. Together with

presenter Mike Andrews, Principal of Structure Development, and myself, Christina Payamps-

Smith, are your hosts for today.

We also have subject-matter experts from HUD on the line to answer your questions during the

Q&A at the end of the session. Before Mike begins, I have a few housekeeping items. We have

allotted approximately two and a half hours for Mike to speak on the designated topic and we'll

leave 30 minutes at the end for a question and answer session with our subject-matter experts.

In that regard, if you have questions for the presenter throughout the presentation, feel free to ask

questions in two ways. In the right-hand navigation panel, you'll see a hand-shaped icon. If you'd

like to verbally share your question, select the hand icon and that will unmute your line in order

of questions received.

Or if you'd like to send us your question, feel free to type your question in the chat box in the

lower right-hand navigation panel. I will read your question aloud in the order received. If we're

unable to address all questions, we will send an e-mail reply after the webinar. All webinar

participants are muted upon entry. If you'd like to notify our team of any technical difficulties,

please send us a message in the chat box.

Today's webinar is being recorded and will be available on hot exchange shortly following the

webinar. Immediately following the webinar, you will receive an invitation to complete a survey

on today's webinar. We welcome you to complete the short survey and share any ideas you may

have for future webinars. I'll now hand it over to Mike to begin the presentation.

Mike Andrews: Thanks Christina and good morning or afternoon everyone, depending upon

where you're at. Thank you for joining the force in the series of public housing repositioning

strategies webinars. Again, my name's Mike Andrews and glad to be able to be with you again

today.

So today we're going to do two things generally -- we're going to talk about the public housing

closeout process as a -- kind of a capstone to some of the repositioning tools that we had talked

about before. And then we're going to focus on some case studies and try to get back to some

real-life examples.

So I'll touch on that -- how we're going to do that in just a minute. Before I get into it a little bit

further, I'd like to spend a little bit of time -- this being the last session -- to acknowledge and

thank everyone who spent time on the presentation materials that we've been using. There's been

a lot of folks from HUD who have participated in adding to and revising and massaging these

slides to make sure that they're the very best information that we can make available to assist you

in your thinking.

Public Housing Repositioning Strategies for Small Public Housing Agencies, Part 4 - 11/21/19


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So thank you to everyone from HUD who has worked in that regard. And then also, thank you to

my colleagues here with Enterprise who have been working to deliver this training. So a lot has

gone into this, a lot behind the scenes and want to just acknowledge those folks who have spent a

lot of time preparing these materials.

But let's get into it. So again, the overall purpose of this webinar is to help you think about the

best ways to reposition your public housing portfolio. And we talked in the first session about

this idea of Understanding your current state and imagining your desired future state, developing

a deeper understanding of the specifics around your current state, understanding matters related

to the real estate, your funding flow, local politics, local housing needs -- everything that goes

into understanding your current state.

And then applying the best tool available to you to make the transition from your current state to

your future state. We talked about how RAD in Section 18 in streamline voluntary conversion

were in some cases combinations of those can be used to reposition your portfolio.

So a little bit about the ground rules, again, for today. Thank you for having participated in all of

the sessions. We appreciate that. [Inaudible] what you can, please avoid distractions, silence your

phone, and ask plenty of questions. Again, this is our last session. The materials are available and

will continue to be available online. So if you want to revisit them or if you want to share them

with colleagues, that option will be available to you. I would encourage you to do that as you

think necessary.

We're going to start off with a couple of quick knowledge checks, just as a refresher. The first

one is a question we've seen before. What are some of the reasons public housing authorities may

choose to reposition?

And again, stabilizing your revenue, so shifting from traditional public housing to the Section 8

platform will provide you with more certainty and stability in that revenue flow, provide you

access to debt and equity so you're able to leverage other capital to complete needed

improvements in your public housing buildings, and it can reduce your administrative burden.

Next question. To whom may a housing authority dispose public housing property? We talked

about this one a little bit Tuesday and it's very relevant for today's conversation as well about

closeout. So it must be a separate legal entity and a separate legal entity may be the housing --

may be controlled by the housing authority. It may be a limited partnership or a nonprofit, which

the housing authority has active control over. So the housing authority can maintain local

control, local governance. It just needs to be a legally different entity than the housing authority.

True or false. RAD is the only repositioning tool that allows the housing authority to carry over

existing public housing funds and use them towards replacement reserve to support a future

Section 8 property following conversion. True or false. RAD is the only tool that allows you to

carry forward those traditional public housing resources into a future Section 8 transaction. That

is true. That's something important to keep in mind and -- as we think about closeout today.



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So today we're going to talk about what closeout means. We're going to talk about what housing

authorities can do with their leftover public housing capacity, their available Faircloth amounts

or their resources. We're talking about different options that exist, different paths that exist to

formally execute a closeout of your Section 9 program.

What I'd also like to do today, that is when we finish closeout, we're going to get into a couple of

preset case study examples as a way to walk through the decision making matrix that we spent

some time with on Tuesday so we can try to make those concepts real. I have queued up some of

the information that we've been looking at for Oxnard. We can do that again.

And what I like to do is invite someone -- maybe even a couple of folks from a housing authority

would like to volunteer themselves to -- we can unmute your line and we can look at your

specific information. My goal in doing this is to help everyone understand how you would sit

down at your own computer in your own office thinking about your own portfolio and go

through the matrixes that we -- the concepts within the matrixes that we talked about on

Tuesday, look at that information and go through the thought process.

So in real time, show you where you get that information, how you compare it, how you work

with the information available, and what decisions that seems to be leading you to about best

options for your portfolio. I'll ask a couple housing authorities if they want to volunteer

themselves. We'll unmute your line and we'll have a conversation and ill try to -- I'll share my

screen and we'll show you guys in real time just how that works.

So what -- let's get started. What does closeout mean? So closeout means that you're turning off

your Section 9 engagement with HUD. It means that you no longer have a public housing

program. But it does not mean that the entity that had been receiving public housing resources

ceases to exist. We touched on this a little bit earlier.

First and foremost, housing authorities are creatures of the state with -- in which they exist. You

might be a standalone entity governed by a board that has your own organizing documents and

your own budgets. You might be embedded in a city or county, but you are an entity unto

yourself first who then secondly receives Section 9 resources from HUD. By stopping the flow

of Section 9 resources, you continue to exist. You may have other contracts and other

commitments, other obligations. You certainly have other powers and rights within your state

that can still be used to deliver an affordable housing agenda in your community.

So it -- I think it's useful to think about that going forward view as well, because you likely still

have a lot of affordable housing needs in your community. Housing authorities have lots of

abilities. And think about how you can continue to fit into your affordable housing delivery

system is a useful part of the strategy and -- that we talked about on day -- Session 1, and the

closeout that we'll talk about here in Session 4.

So in certain instances, a closeout is required by HUD. So if you utilize the Section 8 team's 50

or less option, the Section 22's streamline voluntary conversion, which is at 250 or less, the RAD

streamline process for 50 or less, or if you use RAD and you no longer have any Faircloth units.

So for folks that might not be familiar with the term, the Faircloth number or Faircloth units is



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the term used to define the maximum number of public housing units, which your housing

authority is entitled to.

That information exists. You can -- if you Google HUD Faircloth, you'll actually find a list of all

the housing authorities out there and you'll see what your Faircloth number is. In some instances,

you may find that the actual number of units that you have in your PIC right now or on your

HCC right now is less than your Faircloth number. That's something to be aware of as you're

going into closeout.

When should a housing authority begin thinking about closeout? I think it -- if you intend to

reposition some or all of your portfolio and you're starting to think about the right tool, I think

that is also a time to keep in mind thinking about closeout. So now is the time to start thinking

about it.

You want to give some thought to where your assets may go. You want to give some thought to a

variety of other considerations around staffing, cash accounts. We'll touch on pensions in a little

bit. But closeout should definitely be part of the strategy conversation which you begin thinking

about at the very front end and as you imagine what your desired future state is.

So the assets which HUD is most interested in, for purposes of a closeout, are your public

housing operating reserves, any remaining proceeds -- so that would be funds payable to the

housing authority as a result of a previous disposition of public housing, any remaining public

housing land. So you -- for a variety of circumstances, housing authorities could have a piece of

land which has no building on it, which might still have a declaration of trust recorded against it.

So take stock of your inventory of real estate assets, even if it's a -- not an apartment building.

Any future public housing funding -- so that could be in the form of DDTF, which is your

Demolition and Disposition Transition Fees, or your ARF, which is your asset repositioning fees.

And then your Faircloth authority. So again, Faircloth being the maximum number of public

housing units that you are allowed to have by right, by agreement with HUD. If you have more

Faircloth authority than you have current units, then you've got some excess bandwidth that you

need to think about.

You need to think about your liabilities as well. So what is owed by the housing authority. So are

there any obligations owed to any creditor? Had you completed a CFFP, a capital fund financing

program? So you borrowed against your stream of CAP grant. Do you have an EPC, an energy

performance contract, where you also borrowed against future funding from HUD in order to

complete some -- or install some measures that would make your buildings more efficient.

Think about staffing obligations. So and this one can take on all sorts of different forms. So --

and in some cases, housing authorities have elected to shift staff to the new entity that was

created and maybe the new entity that was created to be the recipient of disposed of assets. In

those instances, those staff are technically no longer a public employee. So there's lots of

considerations there.



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Pensions are mentioned a couple of times throughout this presentation. It's definitely something

for the housing authorities to think about and it's definitely a state-by-state situation. So if you

work for a housing authority right now, you're likely a public employee. It's quite likely that you

have some sort of public employee retirement benefit that you are paying into or someone's

paying into on your behalf.

So if you are going to shift the staff's employment to a different entity, you need to think about

what that might need. It might be that the staff stays with the housing authority as a entity that

continues to exist. And that's fine too. Those housing authorities might continue to exist and --

because they're running their Section 8 program. So the housing authority staff can stay with the

housing authority. The housing authority remains a going concern, but the real estate is now

owned by somebody else.

There's a variety of different things to consider here as you're thinking about where would those

assets go and where do -- here the slide's called Liabilities, but maybe more generally just

obligations that the housing authority has.

What are eligible expenditures of Section 9 public housing funds after a public housing closeout?

There's a few listed here. So any administrative cost associated with the closeout. So staffing,

operations, legal cost, audits, any cost related to the sale of assets and board costs. So any

administrative cost that you have to [inaudible] as an element of the closeout is eligible.

Any outstanding public housing claims, liabilities, litigation -- so anything that you -- any cost or

obligation that was created during your Section 9, your public housing program, or because of

your Section 9 or public housing program, is eligible. Staff transition. If that's something that

you choose to make part of your overall shifts, overall repositioning. Recordkeeping for five

years following the date the last public housing unit was removed. So any ongoing

recordkeeping.

And maintenance of any remaining public housing property prior to that final removal of the

DOT. And then if you are a moving to work entity, moving to work organization, your single-

funds liability would afford you some eligible uses that would be defined by your moving to

work agreement. So those are very situational and only if you're a moving to work organization.

The HUD is a PHA. Notify HUD if it's intent to closeout. So I suggest that there's two ways to

do that. One is by a form. So by 5837 and so that's the formal way. I would strongly encourage

you, as you're thinking about your repositioning, as you're working with your local field office,

to make this part of that conversation.

Let your field office know that you're heading in this direction, that you're organizing yourselves

to reposition your portfolio and you intend to close out so that your housing authorities -- or your

public housing HUD field staff can help you think through estimations of funding flows, timing.

There's going to be lots of details that come up. So do give them heads up early that you're

intending to do this so they can work with you along the way.



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There are three specific tracks or three specific options that exist for closeout [inaudible] to as

the HCC closeout, the public housing transfer or the public housing consolidation. Each of them

are defined by a notice and we'll spend a little bit of time talking about some of the distinctive

characteristics of each of them.

Under a public housing closeout -- this is where the housing authority is working to end its

public housing existence and just tying everything off. So some of the requirements there are that

the housing authority will complete a final audit and reconciliation of all funds. The housing

authority will complete an inventory of any public housing assets or any assets that are not real

estate, so any personal property, that's over $5,000.

When we've talked about this in trainings before, you guys can imagine certain things that you

might own -- any machinery, equipment, that is over $5,000 that is not a real estate asset that you

may have purchased with your public housing resources in service of operating your public

housing properties. You make a list of those, keep an inventory of those, and that becomes part

of what is submitted to HUD.

In this track, in this closeout option, everything will come to a halt and you kind of tie everything

off. So you're working just with yourself and with your HUD field office. So you're not

collaborating with any other housing authority. Whatever -- ideally under this path, you will find

a way to use all available resources in an eligible way so you don't lose anything.

So this -- it requires that you be very planful so that you think about the use of any cash accounts

that currently exist, any reserves, any future funding flow that is available to you, so that you can

make use of all those dollars in service of your portfolio, which you have now disposed of

through one of the channels that we've talked about. So under this option, you're not working

with anyone else. You're just using those resources unto yourself.

Under the public housing program transfer, it's a little bit different. So it also involves -- this

involves a complete closeout either through using your available resources on your own portfolio

or transferring some amount of the remaining public housing assets to a receiving public housing

authority. Under this scenario, be -- the public housing authority is the -- both the existing, is an

existing public housing authority, obviously, and the receiving housing authority currently exists.

So it's not a new housing authority, it's not a new entity. It's an existing public housing authority.

So under this scenario, the idea is that you have done your -- the likely idea is that you have done

your best to use available resources in service of your own portfolio. But for whatever the

circumstances -- it might be that you -- there's going to be some resources that are currently

available to you that you can't put to use.

So rather than those just evaporating or going back to Treasury -- and I think HUD shares this

goal of not wanting to send those resources back to Treasury but wanting to put them to use in

service of low-income people in your community, you can transfer them to a housing authority

who agrees to work with you. But you can transfer cash resources, you could transfer any of your

personal property, you could transfer remaining Faircloth amounts, you could transfer the future

expected DDTF or ARF resources that are coming to you.



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So there's -- as you can imagine or might imagine, there's a lot of planning here to think about

how best to use them first in service of your own portfolio and then to the extent to which that

you can't do that, identifying a housing authority that might be a good partner and then transfer

those to the new partner.

So a couple of -- it's labeled here costs but I think just considerations as well. The prior PHA

governance, so the sending housing authority, will have no control over the resources transferred

to the receiving housing authority. It requires collaboration with the receiving housing authority

and it requires I think both sides to really understand what is it that's being sent and received. So

I think careful consideration by both the sending and receiving housing authority is important so

they both know what is being taken on and what is being sent.

I think from HUD's perspective, there's a formal process here and there's a notice. I think beyond

or on top of HUD's process, there's room for a conversation between the two housing authorities

to think about what other relationship might there be. While the sending housing authority is

sending public housing assets and the receiving housing authority is agreeing to that, it might be

that there's something else that is being agreed to as well. So I think I would encourage housing

authorities to think about what that partnership might look like.

The third option here is the public housing program consolidation. So here, this is the same

notice as the prior option that we talked about. Here, a key consideration is that the public

housing program assets, liabilities are being sent to a newly-created housing authority. So unlike

the prior where it was an existing, here it's a new entity. Now, I think the practical application of

this, and it's shown here in the middle box. In some states, state housing finance agencies have

organized themselves to be this repository of these types of resources so as not to lose these

resources in the state.

So it's -- and I don't think that HUD is in the business of creating new public housing authorities

for the sake of receiving new Section 9 funding flow, but to the extent to which you can find an

entity that would meet the terms of this agreement, it is often or I think that the most common

thought here is that it would be a state housing finance agency where they serve as a repository

for your state or any housing authority that is looking to close out. And rather than having a

single entity that you transfer to, it's consolidated in this new entity.

Some of the same considerations apply. Their sending housing authority would have no formal

governance over the receiving housing authority's use of funds but maybe there could be some

agreements made. It does require close collaboration and it's important for both sides to really

understand what is being sent and received. Let me stop there before we get into the next

knowledge check and see if there's any questions.

Christina Payamps-Smith: We're not seeing anything right now.

Mike Andrews: I didn't see anything either. Okay. Let's keep going with the knowledge check.



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So true or false. A housing authority that wants to close their public housing program must return

any unused program funds to HUD. If you want to close out, your only option is to return unused

resources to HUD. Answer to that is false. You have options. You have these three closeout

options, and I think it's fair to say HUD staff would encourage you to use those options so as not

to have HUD return those funds to Treasury but put them to good use in your community.

Couple of key takeaways. So again, this does not mean that the legal entity that had been the

recipient of the Section 9 resources goes away. It just means that you no longer have a contract

with HUD to receive and follow the rules related to public housing. It just means that that's going

to stop, but you still exist as an organization. Plan for your remaining public housing funds. And

again, start that planning early.

We've talked throughout the last couple of webinars about how sequencing is important and how

you might want to intentionally stage your A property to be a 50 or less or a RAD 50 or less for

the last conversion so that you can benefit from that Section 18 type of disposition or reposition

in a way that allows you to maximize available new operating subsidy. And then by doing that,

you will trigger mandatory closeout, even if you have Faircloth.

So keep all that in mind and -- as you're thinking about how these things line up. And then think

about really who you might transfer to, whether it's another neighboring housing authority.

Maybe it's a housing authority [inaudible] a Housing Choice voucher administrator, maybe you

want to talk to another housing authority who is a Housing Choice voucher administrator, who

has public housing, who might want to receive your Faircloth or some of your remaining DDTF

or ARF that you can't find a way to put to use. And in turn, they will provide services to you in

support of your Section 8 program or maybe other services that they provide, if it happens to be

some sort of family self-sufficiency like programs or what have you.

There's ways in which you can partner with other housing authorities in this closeout

conversation and have some mutual benefits. A couple of more key takeaways. So housing

authorities must formally announce their plan to HUD through form 5837. So that's the technical

way that it happens. There's always -- there's a form for all these technical things. And please

start the conversation early and involve your field office in those conversations so that they can

help you with the planning, and so they know it's coming. They can make a part of their own

planning and advise you so that you can make some of the best decisions possible.

Important resources. We talked about the notices that are available. Those can be found off the

repositioning websites or at the HUD RAD website. And in addition to the notices relating to

close out, there's the -- all of the information that we talked about is built on many of these sites.

You can go to those sites, bookmark those sites and use them as a going forward resource. That

is -- those are the slides related to closeout.

So let me stop there and see if there's any closeout questions. Is that a hand going up? It looks

like we've got a question from Michael O'Neil.

Christina Payamps-Smith: We're unmuting you, Michael.



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Mike Andrews: Michael, are you there? Michael O'Neil, are you there? Maybe it was an

inadvertent hand raise. If that wasn't inadvertent, you're having trouble with your audio, Michael,

if you could go ahead and just maybe type in a question and we'll address it that way. [Inaudible]

Okay. So the next couple of slides will provide some hypothetical examples of situations that

we'll discuss what conversion could look like.

So we'll go through three of those and then after that, I would like to try this idea of taking on a

couple of real-life examples and if we can work in real time with the files available on the HUD

website and HUD websites and illustrate once more for you guys how to do this work.

So our first case study is a suspicious sounding Byrnesville Housing Authority. They have an

inventory of 2,000 units. Of those 2,000 units, 200 are scattered sites and 100 are in an elderly

high-rise building with significant capital needs. So question is what are their options for

repositioning inventory of the Byrnesville Housing Authority?

If we think back to the matrix, some of the first questions that you ask yourself are, do you want

folks to voucher out or if you want to preserve your buildings? Let's assume that folks at the --

leadership at the Byrnesville Housing Authority want to preserve their buildings because they

think that inventory's important to serving low-income people but they want to stabilize their

revenue. Maybe they've got some capital needs -- at least in this one building that they do.

They want to try to achieve some efficiencies with their operation. So they want to keep the

portfolio, continue to serve low-income people, and make some necessary improvements. So

they could do that in a couple of ways. They can take advantage of the scattered site provided

that the -- their scattered site portfolio meets the definition of scattered sites under Section 18.

Again, that definition is that the parcels of land are noncontiguous and upon those noncontiguous

parcels, there is a building with four or fewer units in it.

So if they meet that definition, they should consider moving forward with a Section 18 50 or less

disposition application. A little asterisk to that one. Let's presume here that their fair market rents

are greater than their RAD rents. In most instances, that is the case so let's assume that's the case

in Byrnesville as well. But you always want to check that to make sure that your FMR rents are

greater than RAD.

Then they would look at this elderly high-rise building. So there's -- this is a pretty common

building typology. So it's a building of maybe seven stories or more. It's often a steel or concrete

building with one or multiple building cores with an elevator that serves elderly and disabled.

That's a pretty common building typology in the public housing program nationally.

In a lot of instances, those buildings have a lot of repairs. There's a -- that are needed. And again,

these are things that are broken, not just old. These are things that need to be fixed because

they've worn out -- not things that either are dated. There's a gentleman at the SAC who likes to

talk about the vintage '70s kitchen appliances and countertops that you might not be fond of the

appearance and the color, but if they still function, they're not obsolete.



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So they have to be things that are broken that you can quantify a cost for. If you can prove that

your building is "obsolete," quote-unquote, in the context of the HUD rules, so you've compared

your cost to rehab against your total development cost for that building -- and again, there's --

you will -- in a second here, we'll go back to that file and remind you where to get it and how to

do this calculation.

Then if you can prove that, then obsolescence is the best course of action. So you'd submit your

Section 18 obsolescence application and then your tenant protection voucher application upon

receiving your [inaudible] approval letter. And then you go through all the steps to project base

those tenant protection vouchers back in this building, complete the necessary rehab of the

building. As I said, take time to do all the careful planning for occupied rehab.

And then what will be left will be a building which you control. It was disposed to a different

entity. It has a HAP contract on it for all of the units and you've completed the necessary rehab.

So now I've got stabilized occupants and I've got stabilized revenue because I have a HAP

contract that's tied to my FMRs and will increase with -- based upon a reliable factor.

I've spent a lot of money to fix the things that were broken in the building and I'm on my way to

not having public housing anymore. I'm going to close out once I complete this last repositioning

transaction. So now that I remove my scattered sites of 100, I've -- was it 100 or 200? 200

scattered sites, 100 in this elderly building. So I've got 1,700 units left. So through the remainder

-- for the remainder of my portfolio, I will execute a variety of RAD transactions.

So I'll take a look at what's left of my portfolio, what's left either in a single amp or across amps,

and I will execute specific RAD transactions, going through all the RAD steps. So I'll engage

with a capital needs assessment provider. Well, I'll submit my RAD application. I'll get my

CHAP. I'll then engage with a capital needs assessment provider. I'll look at what my needs in

those buildings might be and then I'll think about the best way to package individual RAD

transactions that will result in a conversion of those remaining 1,700 units.

Once I've done that -- and so let's say that I had a little bit of Faircloth left. I have -- so I don't

have to close out because my last transaction was RAD and I had Faircloth left. So now I'm in a

position where I can continue to receive or I can account for how I will use my DDTF and my

ARF money. My RAD transaction was the only eligible use of future public housing funding for

a property on the Section 8 platform. So I've got some good options there. And then I can

ultimately work towards a closing -- a closeout. That's one scenario.

Next scenario, case study B. Even more suspicious sounding, Esterling Town Housing Authority.

They have an inventory of 90 units. They want to maintain the same hard units in their

community, so preservation is important to them. So they don't want to lose the units. What

public housing repositioning options should they consider?

So a couple things to consider here for them. It could be the RAD closeout blend. So the housing

authority could apply for RAD for all of the 90 units. And then seek to use 50 of those units

under the Section 18 50 or less option. And then the balance of those units could be -- would

transition under RAD.



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So they can blend their RAD and their Section 18. In this instance, we're -- we'd be assuming

that their fair market rents are much greater than the RAD rents. So by doing this, they're able to

maximize their available revenue by maximizing the access to tenant protection vouchers which

would have a rent index to FMR and then have RAD rents for the balance.

In this case, let's assume that the housing authority doesn't have a Housing Choice voucher

program. So they will need to have found a partner housing authority who would work with them

to be their Housing Choice voucher administrator. So this scenario would see them enter into a

future project-based voucher agreement, both for the RAD and the PBV units that would be with

the tenant protection vouchers which had been awarded.

And then the owner of that building moving forward, which is a different entity now than the

housing authority since it's been disposed of, would sign the HAP agreement with the partner

housing authority. If they can't find the partner, the housing authority, they'd be limited to the

RAD PBRA option. And 100 percent of their units would convert under RAD. You can see how

finding a partner to agree to administer a PBV contract is pretty important to opening up some of

-- at least this option for the Esterling Housing Authority.

And then lastly is the even more suspect, Szybist County Housing Authority. They have an

inventory of 240 public housing units. They do have a Housing Choice voucher program with

1,000 units in it. They want to maintain the same hard units in their community. What options do

they have?

So first thing they should think about is how their RAD rents compare to what would be their

PBV rents. They could do that by checking the FMRs. If the RAD rents are less, then you'll want

to keep looking at how you might qualify for a Section 18 or Section 22 conversion because

they're at 240 units, which is less than the threshold or the maximum allowable under the SBC.

So they could look at -- they could look first at doing a Section 18.

It might be that they have some scattered sites. It might be that they have some units that are --

that would qualify for the 50 or under, so they should utilize Section 18 first. They could then

consider using streamline voluntary conversion if they don't meet the 50 or less. So here it's

important to keep in mind the requirements on mandatory closeout.

So if they choose to use streamline voluntary conversion and they have scattered sites, they

might want to use the scattered site Section 18 option first in order to project base those vouchers

and those units. Because, again, they want to maintain those hard units. And then look to

streamline voluntary conversion as an option for a smaller number. Because streamline voluntary

version comes with those requirements that give the tenants rights to make decisions about how

that voucher's going to be used.

So if the Szybist Housing Authority wants to preserve those units, the decisions residents make

are pretty important on the future deployment of those vouchers. So you can see how these

different scenarios conjure up or touch on the different rules related to each of the different

tracks and how, depending upon what your option is, you want to think about which ones fit,



12

which ones don't fit, and which ones kind of fit if certain things happen. And so you need to

spend a little bit more time thinking about what that looks like.

So that's the last of the preset scenarios. And what I'd like to do is pause and see if there's any

questions generally, closeout again. And then we could go into a conversation about some

specifics using some real-life examples.

Christina Payamps-Smith: So we have Michael's question. He was able to type in. It's, "How

does a PHA maintain its public pension participation using these repositioning options? How

would you structure?"

Mike Andrews: So that's a big question. So knowing more about your situation would be

important to know exactly how to advise you. But I think first thing I would ask, if I was in your

situation or if I was at a housing authority in your shoes, is know whether or not your housing

authority is going to continue to have a Section 8 program and continue to have employees. So

are you going to, as the housing authority, continue to employ your staff or would they shift to a

different entity?

If you're continuing to employ staff, then presumably you'll still have all the requirements of the

public employee retirement system in your state. If you are going to make some decisions to

move staff or restructure staff, then your closeout, your public housing funds can be used to

assist you with that endeavor. And whether or not going forward your employees have access to

the retirement system is something that I'd encourage you to consider or look deep into your state

requirements.

Each state's different. I've spent a little bit of time looking at my home state and how this plays

out. And I know enough to know that each state has different rules. But I think I would start with

understanding, what do you want your situation to look like moving forward, in terms of

organizations and who the staff work for. And then understand how does your public employee

retirement system relate to that desired structure? Any other questions?

Okay. So what I'd like to do now I think is see if there's a housing authority that would like to --

that's thinking about public housing and that would like to think about what their situation looks

like. And I'd like to model all the stuff that we have been talking about over the last four sessions

-- remind you where to get the tools, remind you how to use those tools and go through the

thought process, and then have a brief conversation -- we can't spend an enormous amount of

time here, but have a brief conversation with you about what your options look like for

repositioning.

Christina, it looks like a hand went up. I'm not sure if that's a hand that has a question about

closeout or whether that was someone who wanted to take me up on this offer. [Inaudible]

Christina Payamps-Smith: So it looks like your audio is not connected, Carol. You'd be able to -

- you can send us a chat to let us know if [inaudible] if you have a [inaudible]



13

Mike Andrews: Yeah. Carol, so if you want to send us a note through the chat function and let

us know if you can connect, that'd be great. Is there someone who has the ability -- who has their

audio set up, who's currently on mute, who would like to use their housing authority as an

example?

Go ahead and identify yourself and we can get into it. All right, Christina. It looks like Melanie

Full [ph].

Christina Payamps-Smith: Melanie, you're unmuted.

Melanie Full: All right. Thank you. Can you hear me?

Mike Andrews: I can.

Melanie Full: Okay. We have 60 units in one building of public housing and we also have a

voucher program. So -- and the RAD rents or I guess the FMR, the fair market rents, are higher

than the RAD rents.

Mike Andrews: [Inaudible] is greater than RAD. Okay. So let's see here. I'm going to share my

screen. These things open, so forgive me. They're all related to what we're doing here, but --

Melanie Full: That's fine.

Mike Andrews: Christina, if you could give me a [inaudible] check about the scale.

Christina Payamps-Smith: A little bit bigger. Yes. Yep. That's good.

Mike Andrews: Okay. So what is your housing authority code?

Melanie Full: MN182.

Mike Andrews: Okay. So I've got -- what I have open here is the 2018 RAD rent schedule that's

available on the HUD website. So we -- I've talked a couple of times about how to get that. You

can get it on the RAD website, you can get to it through the reposition website. If you just

Google 2018 RAD rents, it will come up. So that's what I have open here.

I did -- I have a -- kind of a truncated version of it. I only have the housing authorities listed who

have registered for this webinar. But I just did that to -- because the file's big, so I was trying to

[inaudible] down any slowness of my computer. So you search for the housing authority code

under the housing authority code information. And there -- 182 is it?

Melanie Full: 182. Yep.

Mike Andrews: 182. All right. So let me -- all right. So let's [inaudible]. So this looks like your

housing authority.



14

Melanie Full: correct.

Mike Andrews: So you've -- so here we've got the Grandview Apartments, 60 public housing

units and I'm going to scroll way over here to see that we've got 19 one-bedroom units and

there's 19 studios, 41. And then I can see what the RAD rents are for those. So I can see $406

and $557. And then I'll continue to scroll out here for the comparison. The -- folks, recall, this is

where I added some columns that's just subtracted.

And you can see up here, it's just a simple subtraction. You guys could do this on the file

yourselves. Subtract the FMR from the RAD for that bedroom size and see what the difference

is. So there's a $45 difference and a $60 difference. So if we have, what, 19 of those studios; was

that right?

Melanie Full: Correct.

Mike Andrews: And what was it?

Melanie Full: And there's actually 41 bedrooms and they list a three-bedroom but we don't have

that any longer. It was converted to office space.

Mike Andrews: So let's do this. So we know the difference is $45. So let's -- I'm curious what

that dollar amount difference is for a year. So that's the monthly difference, given that I've got 19

studios and 41 ones. Now, if I multiply that by 12 months in a year, that is the difference for each

bedroom [inaudible] for each bedroom for the -- all 60 units. [Inaudible]

So I can see that the difference annually between my RAD revenue and my FMR revenue is

about $39,000 a year. That's a big number so that's a real difference. So that's something to

consider. Now, if I have 60 units, I've got a couple of options. And now, are these -- is this one

building?

Melanie Full: Yes.

Mike Andrews: So I'm going to go over here real quick and just -- I wanted to take a look at the

building real quick. So what type of building is this?

Melanie Full: It's a high-rise, five story.

Mike Andrews: High-rise. Five story. Okay. So do you -- what do you know about the condition

of the building?

Melanie Full: It's in great condition.

Mike Andrews: Okay. So it would likely not qualify for obsolescence then; is that --

Melanie Full: No.



15

Mike Andrews: Okay. So yeah. Let's figure out what that cost would be or what that threshold

is. What city are you near?

Melanie Full: It's Morris. It's M-o-r-r-i-s. Oh. So try St. Cloud maybe. Mm-hmm.

Mike Andrews: Maybe --

Melanie Full: Maybe Minneapolis is all they have in here.

Mike Andrews: Ah. It's got St. Cloud.

Melanie Full: Oh. Okay. There we go.

Mike Andrews: So here's our TDCs. And then -- so you remember you can download this file.

And actually since we did the Section 18 webinar, I was able to confirm that the tool with the

2019 TDCs and HCC information is available on HUD's website. So that's the tool I'm using

right now.

So I downloaded this tool and again, you would put in -- under the select city and state section,

you put in your city and your state. If you're in a small city, you have to look to the nearest larger

city that would be reflected in HUD's database.

This then tells you the TDC and HCC threshold amounts by bedroom size by building type. So

we know -- well, that's what this table does. We then go over to the unit mix table and it will tell

us -- it will give us an opportunity to put in our bedroom configuration.

So if I remember, we had 19 studios and 41 ones. So I put it in both of these columns. I put it

under rehab and new because the rehab will give us the HCC number and the new will give us

the TDC number, the way this tool is built. And you told me that it was a high-rise building, so

it's an elevator building.

Melanie Full: Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike Andrews: Just like the building we're in. So then I go to the next tab, which is TDC and

HCC cost calculations. And I scroll down here. And so this tells me what the HCC amount is and

the TDC amount is for that building. So this is relevant for a couple of things. So if you're -- the -

- to qualify for obsolescence, with an elevator building -- forgive me. With an elevator building,

you need to show that your costs for things that need to be fixed are 62.5 percent of your TDC.

So 62.5 percent of that TDC -- I'm just going to do it right here. See it. That was $20,400,000

roughly. That's 62.5 percent. [Inaudible] so your obsolescence threshold is roughly $12,750,000 -

- $1,416,000. So as you're thinking about your planning -- so you know that your RAD rents are

lower than your FMRs, but then you're thinking Section 18.

Well, your options for Section 18 would be obsolescence. In order to meet obsolescence, you

have to show that your rehab needs, based upon immediate repairs necessary, because things are,



16

again, broken -- not old, but broken. It's about $12,750,000. So it sounds like you were saying

that your building's in pretty good shape.

Melanie Full: It is. Yeah.

Mike Andrews: So it sounds like you're not going to meet the obsolescence test.

Melanie Full: Correct.

Mike Andrews: So what are your other options? You're not scattered sites because you're a single

building.

Melanie Full: Right. So what about the blended thing where you -- we RAD 10 units and do

Section 18 with the other 50?

Mike Andrews: That's exactly what you would do. So that's this hybrid. So in your situation,

you could submit a RAD application for all 60 units. You get a -- short time after you submit that

application, you'll get a CHAP. Once you get a CHAP, you'll get a person who will work with

you, and the name is currently evolving. Prior to the version 4 notice, they were called readiness

transaction managers, but that name's going to change. But it's still going to be a helper.

You're going to get a helper who will help you walk through exactly how to navigate these steps.

Once you have that CHAP, you will then start thinking about your Section 18 application for 50

units. Now, if I were you, I would put that Section 18 -- I would conceive of my project so that

all 41 one-bedrooms were going to be part of my 50 or less, and then nine of my studios were

going to be part of my 50 or less.

So it's those 50 units that would have the PBVs awarded to them and that you would enter into a

project-based voucher agreement for. And then the balance of your studio units would go RAD.

By waiving your 50 or less allocation to your larger bedroom sizes, you'll increase the revenue

for this building. So you'll get more revenue that way.

You can then proceed simultaneously down the Section 18 and RAD track and you'd -- so you'd

go through the local PBV process. To enter into a HAP agreement, you'd go through the RAD

process and you'd reposition this building with a hybrid between RAD and Section 18. So I think

that's -- that is your best bet for your scenario where you want to keep the building, you want to

presumably keep serving the same people or that same kind of profile of people living in that

building.

You're not 50 or less by itself, you're not obsolete. Streamline voluntary conversion -- maybe it's

worth considering if you want to just pause for a second and ask yourself whether you think all

of the residents would agree to let you have -- to turn back those vouchers. The benefit for if they

were -- say for a second 100 percent of your residents said, yes. I'll do that. The difference for

you would be that 11 of your units that would otherwise have RAD rents would now have FMR

rents.



17

Now, the dollar difference is $45 a month or $850 a year for every unit that is under RAD. So it's

not a huge dollar difference for the uncertainty that would come with streamline voluntary

conversion. So there's a judgment there for you to make about your organization. If it were me,

I'd think that the dollar difference isn't enough for me to want to expose myself to the streamline

voluntary conversion uncertainty and I'd go the RAD Section 18 route.

Melanie Full: Okay. Makes sense to me.

Mike Andrews: All right. Thank you for --

Melanie Full: Thank you.

Mike Andrews: -- volunteering.

Melanie Full: Sure.

Mike Andrews: All right. Christina, do we -- find my webinar browser again. Is there anyone

else who would like to volunteer?

Christina Payamps-Smith: On our end, we can't see until you stop sharing your desktop --

Mike Andrews: There we go.

Christina Payamps-Smith: -- if we have anybody else in the queue, which we do.

Dan: Mike, this is Dan. Can I just toss in a couple other advantages of the RAD Section 18

blend you were talking about is that --

Mike Andrews: Please.

Dan: -- the housing authority would then be able to wrap in some of their public housing

program reserves to the project which they wouldn't be able to do under streamline voluntary

conversion. And the RAD Section 18 blend offers all the resident protections to all those

families, including the Section 8 families under the new notice. So there's a couple more benefits

to doing it the way that you suggested.

Mike Andrews: Great point. Thank you. Let's see. All right. So is it Kimberly [inaudible]

Kimberly: Yes.

Christina Payamps-Smith: You're unmuted, Kimberly.

Kimberly: Hi. So I'm relatively new to public housing, so I really could use your help here. So

we have 55 units, scattered sites. Thirty of them are -- were built in 1958 but are in relatively

good condition, or average I should say. And the FMR is definitely higher than the RAD rents.



18

Mike Andrews: Okay. So let's take a look. So I'm going to un- -- or I'm going to share my

screen. I'm going to again.

Kimberly: It looks like annually -- because I did -- I was following your process there. And so

when I did it myself [inaudible] look at $180,000, almost $181,000 a year.

Mike Andrews: Difference. Okay.

Kimberly: Total.

Mike Andrews: So what's your public housing number?

Kimberly: We have 55 units. Oh. I'm -- AZ008.

Mike Andrews: So what was the state abbreviation again?

Kimberly: AZ.

Mike Andrews: Okay. So that look like you?

Kimberly: Yep. That top one. Yes. Mm-hmm. Just the top one.

Mike Andrews: Got it. [Inaudible] from getting confused. There's your 55 units and you said

they're scattered sites?

Kimberly: So I have -- yeah. There's two different sites. They're a block apart from each other,

but there's two different sites.

Mike Andrews: Okay. And do the scattered sites meet the definition of scattered site?

Kimberly: I don't -- I'm not even sure. REAC was here last week doing an inspection and he said

he would consider it scattered. But I don't know.

Mike Andrews: Okay. Let's think about that for a second. I'm trying to find your properties, take

a look at them together.

Christina Payamps-Smith: Hey, Mike.

Mike Andrews: Yeah, Christina.

Christina Payamps-Smith: Are you still with --

Mike Andrews: Yeah. Sorry for the silence. I am still here. So I'm looking at the addresses or

looking for the addresses for that property to get a sense of scattered site. So the definition for

scattered site is that the land upon which the building sits is not contiguous with another property

and that --



19

Kimberly: And it's not.

Mike Andrews: Okay. And that there are four units or less in the buildings sitting on that

property. So if you have units that meet that definition, they could fit in the scattered site -- they

could fit -- they could be worded under Section 18 as a scattered site. So that would be the first

thing to look at. And so given what you know about your property, are there -- any of those 55

units that are scattered sites?

Kimberly: Yes.

Mike Andrews: Okay. So here's -- looks like your property.

Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

Mike Andrews: Your 55 units so you've got some that are -- they're all clustered nearby.

Kimberly: Yep. Henderson Square and then there's -- the other ones are in [inaudible] between

[inaudible] and Hillview [ph].

Mike Andrews: All right. So if some of these meet the definition of scattered site, you could use

that first. So we -- let's see which ones do. And then to the extent to which you can then decrease

your remaining units to be less than 50, you could qualify for the 50 or less. So if you have five

units that meet the scattered site definition -- sorry. [Inaudible] my computer's not liking

everything that's open right now.

If you have units that meet the definition of scattered sites and can then get your -- the remaining

portfolio to be less than 50, then you could use that as your final option, which would bring with

it mandatory closeout. And I'm going to stop this because it's -- bring with it mandatory closeout

and would allow you the benefit of your RAD rent -- pardon me, your PBV rents, which are

greater than your RAD rents.

And so we look out here. And there's a pretty significant difference for you between your RAD

rents and your FMRs. So I think if I were in your shoes, I would first do a Section 18 scattered

site application for those that meet the scattered site definition. And then presuming you get

yourself under 50, do a 50 or less that will bring with it a mandatory closeout.

So then you've got to think about all the things about closeout. So where are you going to spend

your -- what are you going to do with your DDTF and your ARF? Because you won't have a

RAD project now, so you don't have this kind of a safety valve of a project to spend that money

on.

But you've got this hard stop with the mandatory closeout and no RAD property. So what are

you going to do with that DDTF and RAD money? So projecting what that funding flow looks

like coming to you and what you could do with it is going to be important. Do you have a

Housing Choice voucher program?



20

Kimberly: Yes. We do.

Mike Andrews: You do. Okay. So you don't need a buddy housing authority. You could still

work with a neighboring housing authority to close out with a transition to them. And you have

enough information to reasonably project what the cash value of that closeout might look like.

And whether you've got any Faircloth, we could look at that was well. And then maybe they

want to -- they provide a service that could be helpful to you. So you could talk to them about

some sort of partnership where they receive those resources and then provide something back to

you.

So I would do scattered site and then 50 or less. Start thinking about mandatory closeout at the

front-end of that thought process and think about if there's a housing authority that you might

want to partner with to transition your resources to, if you find that you can't deploy all of them

yourself. And there's some ways in which you can sequence things that might allow you to soak

up some of that available resources, but timing is going to be really key for you to think about.

Kimberly: Okay. All righty. Thank you.

Mike Andrews: Okay. Do we have anyone else?

Christina Payamps-Smith: We don't have any hands raised, but we do have a question. We have

42 units, all scattered sites, and we also have an HCV voucher program. RAD rents are 84

percent of FMR. We're assuming that streamline conversion would be best for us. What would

be the best option for us going forward, assuming the tenants would move after properties are

sold, so they would need some kind of tenant-based vouchers at the end.

Mike Andrews: Let's see. So tell me again how many units they have.

Christina Payamps-Smith: [Inaudible]

Mike Andrews: How many?

Christina Payamps-Smith: 42.

Mike Andrews: 42 public housing units. And the information says they're scattered sites?

Christina Payamps-Smith: Yes. All of them are scattered sites it says.

Mike Andrews: Okay. And is this a participant who -- looks like they -- do they have audio or

don't have audio?

Christina Payamps-Smith: We're about to check. Susan [ph] can you test out your line?

Susan: Can you hear me?



21

Christina Payamps-Smith: Yep.

Susan: Did you have a question regarding what we wrote?

Mike Andrews: Yeah. So sounds like you have 42 public housing units.

Susan: Correct.

Mike Andrews: And you have a Housing Choice voucher program.

Susan: Correct.

Mike Andrews: And your RAD rents are at 82 percent of your FMRs.

Susan: 84 but yeah.

Mike Andrews: 84. Pardon me. Okay. And did you check to see what the dollar difference was

that --

Susan: I don't have it on hand.

Mike Andrews: Okay. What's your --

Susan: Davenport, Iowa.

Mike Andrews: What's your PHA code?

Susan: IA045.

Mike Andrews: So [inaudible] I might not have had you in my original registration because I

didn't get you added to my list here. But so let -- we can do this without the numbers. So if your

RAD rents are greater -- pardon me. Your FMRs are greater than your RAD rents, so it leads you

to think that a Section 18 team disposition would be preferable.

With 42 units, you would qualify for the 50 or less. So that's the first thing I would think about.

So you wouldn't have to figure out if they're scattered or not. There -- 42 being less than 50, you

qualify for the 50 or less. So you could do a 50 or less Section 18 application which comes with

it mandatory closeout. You could apply for tenant protection vouchers for all of the units that

have been occupied in the last 24 months prior to your dispo approval letter.

And then you could either project-based those vouchers back in the units if your plan is to keep

those buildings. Or you could provide those vouchers to residents and sell those buildings. If

you're going to sell the buildings, then -- so this is Section 18, so a disposition is mandatory. So

you have to have a new entity that the buildings are going to go to. If your plan is to keep them

in your portfolio -- you still want to own them and run them and use them as a housing resources

-- then you create an entity to transition them to.



22

If your plan is to sell them at presumably fair market value or get the most for them, you would

sell them and then tell HUD what -- in your Section 18 application, what you think the fair

market value is. And then HUD would enter into a regulatory agreement or a control agreement

with you for the use of funds or the group fund proceeds which you can then use for future

activities. So of those two options, what is it you want -- what do you want your future state to be

for these 42 units? Do you want to keep owning them and running them or do you want to sell

them?

Susan: That's currently up in the air. Our council has to discuss all of this. So we're just trying to

get the information to provide to them at this time.

Mike Andrews: So if your strategy is to preserve these units and keep them as an affordable

resource in your community which you control, you can do that through the less-than-50 Section

18 disposition. And you would create a new entity that could be a -- again, a limited partnership

or a nonprofit. You would transfer title of the real estate to that entity, presumably for no cost.

You would then receive tenant protection vouchers and be able to project-base back those

vouchers in those units and continue to run them as affordable rental housing. But the operations

would benefit from a revenue which is about 16 percent greater than what your -- well, probably

more than that, given what your RAD rents are. So your revenue would be greater than your

current revenue, would -- and would provide you with some certainty.

So you'd have more reliable revenue, you'd have the ability to spend some of your resources --

the cash flow coming from that property back on the buildings for capital needs. And then you

would do mandatory closeout, so you'd no longer have a Section 9 program. So that's the strategy

for preservation.

If your strategy is to let the residents opt out and you no longer own real estate, your tenant --

you start down the same path. Section 18 50 or less. Once it's approved, you get tenant protection

vouchers. You then use those vouchers to assist the households in moving. So here, you have to

follow the relocation rules under 24 CFR 971 which means that you have to provide reasonable

relocation support, help them find a -- you have to offer a comparable unit.

So you help those residents successfully move somewhere else. Once they've moved somewhere

else, you can then sell the homes, those -- I'm going to make this up. I'm guessing that they're all

small building, so maybe houses or doubles. So you'd sell those to one or multiple buyers and

then use those proceeds in a way that is consistent with what your dispo plan said to the SAC and

consistent with the agreement with HUD for the use of dispo proceeds.

So those are your two tracks. Track one being, I want to still be a landlord and own and offer this

housing to low-income people. Track two is, I want to help these folks transition into different

housing, still being affordable to them because they'll have a voucher, and we're no longer a

landlord.

Susan: But you said either way they get tenant protection voucher?



23

Mike Andrews: Well, under either scenario, the housing authority would be awarded a tenant

protection voucher for any unit occupied within the prior 24 months from the date of your dispo

approval letter. So they -- so the big choice for you guys at a policy level is, do you still want to

be a landlord and provide the certainty of those units being affordable to low-income people? Or

do you want to support folks through the voucher?

If for some reason the -- you're thinking that you don't want to be a landlord but you value the

certainty of this operating subsidy being tied to a unit -- so the community knows that that unit is

going to be affordable but you guys decide that you're just not cut out to be landlords for

whatever the reason. And I'm not judging. Just -- it's just you're not set up that way. But maybe

there's a partner in town that is.

So maybe you find a nonprofit partner who is well-suited to be the landlord who you could do a

less-than fair market value disposition to that entity who is set up and totally equipped to be the

landlord of these units. You could then project base those new tenant protection vouchers in

those units which that partner of yours will now own. They run them, so you guys would have --

no longer have the responsibility of the landlord and you would know that you've created the

long-term certainty of affordable housing in those 42 units going forward.

Susan: Okay. And then I guess another part of this. If they had to move and we give them those

tenant protection voucher, are -- it's set up for our Housing Choice voucher program that it's two

heartbeats per room and then our public housing is based on sex and age. So could they -- would

they have to follow our HCV program rules?

Mike Andrews: So your local project-based voucher program would fit within your overall HCV

program. So whatever rules you guys have for running your HCV program that relate to

occupancy and rent increases and all that stuff would extend to your project-based voucher

program as you've defined it in your admin plan. That help?

Susan: Yep. Thank you.

Mike Andrews: You're welcome. Christina, do we have anyone else who's interested in

exploring options?

Christina Payamps-Smith: We don't have anything else on our end.

Mike Andrews: Okay. So maybe at this time, we'll see if folks have general questions about

rules. So we don't need to do a on-the-fly case study but we could just see if folks have any

questions about anything that we've gone over. I know we've got a couple of HUD experts on the

call who could help field questions if there are any about anything that we talked about over the

last four sessions. So RAD, Section 18, streamline voluntary conversion, project basing

vouchers, closeout.



24

That noise tells me there's a question. Is that a question? The hand just went down. Not seeing

any more questions. One last call for questions. All right. Well, that is the end of the prepared

presentations and that's the end of this four-part series.

Thank you for spending the time and I'd like to acknowledge everyone at HUD who had a hand

in this -- Ann Esterling, Greg Byrne, Kathy Szybist, Eric Chambers, Chad Ruppel, Jane

Hornstein from the SAC. I'm sure I'm forgetting some -- Eva, our project-based voucher expert,

and others. So thank you all for helping me make sure I've got all this dialed in and spending all

the time on the slides and preparing this presentation.

Again, thanks to all the participants for spending the time. All this information is going to be

available on the websites so you can relive this if you choose, or share it with family and friends.

And hopefully you'll find it useful as you work on strategies for your own portfolio. With that, I

don't have anything else. Christina, if you want to say anything else -- oh. One more thing

actually. The survey.

So folks should get a survey when they log off. If you have constructive thoughts that you want

to offer, please do. Is there anything we can do, anything I can do, anything HUD can do to

improve our delivery would be appreciated. So any thoughts you have about how we could do

that would be appreciated. Thank you in advance for the survey response.

Dan: Hey. This is Dan from HUD. I just wanted to jump in and echo Mike's sentiment. First,

thanks Mike for doing such a great job these past four sessions. And also, we at HUD, we really

do -- we want to help housing authorities, so just please take seriously Mike's request to fill out

the survey. Anything that we can do to improve this or anything that you liked in particular or

thought could be improved, please do let us know in the survey.

Mike Andrews: All right. One last call for questions. Last chance. All right. Let's -- is that a --

Michael O'Neil, is that a question? I see a hand raise down there. I think that might have been a -

- is that a prior question or, Michael, do you have a question?

Christina Payamps-Smith: We unmuted you, Michael.

Mike Andrews: All right. Maybe that was another inadvertent hand raise. That happens from

time to time on the webinars. Thank you all and I think that concludes our webinar. And thank

you for your time.

(END)

Documents

Public Housing Repositioning Strategies for Small Public ......~~~ Noble Transcription Services - 714.335.1645 ~~~ Public Housing Repositioning Strategies for Small Public Housing

Public Housing Repositioning Strategies for Small Public ......~ Noble Transcription Services - 714.335.1645 ~ Public Housing Repositioning Strategies for Small Public Housing