Ptolemy and Whole Sign Houses

Did Ptolemy Use Whole Sign Houses?

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Did Ptolemy Use Whole Sign Houses?Published on December 8, 2011 by Chris Brennan in Techniques

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The question of Ptolemys preferred method of housedivision came up on the discussion forum on Skyscriptrecently. I said that I had always thought that RobertSchmidt did an adequate job in his translation of theTetrabiblos in pointing out the instances in which Ptolemyclearly employed whole sign houses.

I suggested that anyone who wishes to argue thatPtolemy was not using whole sign houses needs to tallyup every single instance in which he uses the wordzidion to refer to a house/place, and then explain howexactly these reference should not be understood asdemonstrating that he was using whole sign houses.

A poster named Eddy from the Netherlands suggestedthat whole sign proponents should do this as well, andprovide proof of the assertion that Ptolemy was usingwhole sign houses.

The purpose of this article, then, is to highlight some instances in the Tetrabiblos in which Ptolemy clearly seems tobe using whole sign houses. Some of these instances were pointed out by Schmidt in the footnotes of histranslation in the 1990s, although I have noted a few additional instances as well. In the end I think that I am ableto demonstrate that there was at least some level of usage of whole sign houses by Ptolemy in the Tetrabiblos.

Editions and Translations Used

I primarily used Robert Schmidts translations of books 1, 3 and 4 of Ptolemys Tetrabiblos in doing this research,and most of my quotations from Ptolemy below are from this translation, unless stated otherwise.

For Schmidts translations of the Tetrabiblos see:

Claudius Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, Book I, trans. Robert Schmidt, ed. Robert Hand, The Golden Hind Press,Berkeley Springs, WV, 1994.Claudius Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, Book III, trans. Robert Schmidt, ed. Robert Hand, The Golden Hind Press,Berkeley Springs, WV, 1996.Claudius Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, Book IV, trans. Robert H. Schmidt, The Golden Hind Press, Cumberland, MD,1998.

Schmidts translation is arguably more appropriate for this project than the older, more standard translation of theTetrabiblos by F. E Robbins for two reasons:

1) Schmidts translation is based on the more authoritative modern critical edition of the Tetrabiblos that was editedby Boll and Boer and published by Teubner in 1940 (see below for reference). Robbins did not have access to thiscritical edition because it had not yet been published when he was working on his translation of the Tetrabiblos, apoint which he laments in the introduction to his translation (pg. xiv), and so he was forced to essentially compilehis own edition of the text based on photographs of manuscripts that he was able to acquire (pg. xviii). Unfortunately for Robbins, in the same year that his translation of the Tetrabiblos was finally published in 1940, thenew critical edition of the Greek text of the Tetrabiblos by Boll and Boer was also published. So, virtually as soonas his translation was published it was somewhat out of date since it was not based on the latest critical edition. Atthis point Schmidts translation is the only modern English translation that is based on the more authoritativeBoll/Boer edition, although even this edition has since been superseded by a newer edition that was published byWolfgang Hbner in 1998 (see below for reference). Nonetheless, Schmidts translation is still based on a morerecent critical edition than Robbins.

2) The second reason why Schmidts translation is more appropriate when trying to analyze Ptolemys approach tohouse division is that Schmidt and Hand, the latter of which was the editor of books 1 and 3 of Schmidts

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translation, were both fully aware of and interested in the house division issue, and they took great pains to noteeach time that Ptolemy made a subtle or not-so-subtle statement that had implications for one form of housedivision or another. Additionally, because Schmidt was acutely aware of the issue, he was sometimes more carefulthan Robbins in translating certain passages in a way that was more faithful to the Greek. I can cite at least oneinstance where Robbins adopts a looser translation of a critical passage where Ptolemy makes a reference to thehouses, and this reading alters the meaning of the sentence. In this instance, which I will discuss later in thisarticle, the only reason that Robbins doesnt translate what the Greek text literally says in this particular passage isbecause he wasnt necessarily concerned about house division as an issue, and he may not have been aware ofhow his translation of that particular sentence obscures the original meaning of the text. As I will show, in thisinstance Schmidts translation ends up being more faithful to the Greek text because he was paying attention to thisspecific issue.

Now, with all of that being said, because I anticipate that some people may call into question the reliability ofSchmidts translations, and indeed since Schmidt himself considers them to be preliminary rather than finaltranslations, I tried to provide parallel quotes from Robbins translation of the Tetrabiblos when I have quotedimportant passages from Schmidts translation below. This is done in order to ensure that any conclusions reachedin this article are not simply the result of one reading of the text, and to eliminate any arguments that myconclusions are simply a result of following a biased translation on the part of Schmidt. As we will see, thetranslations by Schmidt and Robbins are often in agreement when it comes to the vast majority of the importantpassages that reference the houses or places, and there is only one major instance where this is not the case.

For Robbinss translation see:

Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, ed. and trans. F. E. Robbins, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1940 (repr.2001).

The critical editions of the Tetrabiblos are:

1. Claudii Ptolemaei opera quae exstant omnia, Vol. III, 1: , ed. F. Boll and . Boer,Teubner, Leipzig, 1940.

2. Claudii Ptolemaei opera quae exstant omnia, vol. III, 1: , post F. Boll et . Boer secundiscuris, ed. Wolfgang Hbner, Teubner, Stuttgart & Leipzig, 1998.

Schmidt only published translations of books 1, 3 and 4 of the Tetrabiblos, so for book 2 we must rely entirely onRobbins.

At this point I have opted not to refer to the older Ashmand translation of the Tetrabiblos because it is based on theso-called Proclus paraphrase rather than a straight translation of the Tetrabiblos itself. It might be useful tocompare some of the relevant passages to the paraphrase at some point though.

Preliminary Remarks About Ptolemy and House Division

The focus of this analysis is to determine whether Ptolemy used the signs or zidia themselves as houses orplaces (), or if he instead used some sort of secondary system of house division that involves trisecting eachof the quadrants that lie in-between the degrees of the four angles or pivots (), which are the ascendant,midheaven, descendant, and imum coeli. The first approach, where the signs are used as houses, is called wholesign houses, whereas we will refer to the second approach generically here as quadrant houses.

In the works of other Hellenistic astrologers who employed whole sign houses, such as Dorotheus of Sidon, VettiusValens or Paulus Alexandrinus, there is a tendency to use the words for signs (zidia) and houses (topoi)interchangeably, so that a reference to the 6th house is sometimes to the 6th sign, and vice versa. This isactually going to be the primary criteria that we will pay attention to when it comes to trying to determine Ptolemysapproach to house division. If Ptolemy were to consistently refer to the houses without reference to the signs,then it would be hard to determine which form of house division he prefers, as it could be either whole sign orquadrant houses. However, if at any point Ptolemy refers to the houses as signs, then we would have clearreference to whole sign houses, as there isnt really any reason to refer to the houses as signs in a quadrant-basedapproach, but it is standard practice when an author is using whole sign houses.

In general what we are trying to establish here is if Ptolemy seems to be talking about the houses within the contextof the signs, or if instead he tends to describe the houses as a separate and distinct division. We will run into twoproblems when we try to pursue this line of inquiry though:

1) The first issue is that Ptolemys text is only a summary or abridged version of his approach to astrology. Hisdiscussions of most of the topics in the Tetrabiblos are extremely brief and concise. He describes his program inbook 3, chapter 4, saying that his goal is to outline the general principles of his system without going too much intospecifics. For the most part he is successful in staying concise and not focusing on details, with only a few majorexceptions, for example in the chapter on the length of life (3, 11), or in the chapter on determining character traits(3, 14). Unfortunately he uses no example charts, so we do not know exactly how he combined all of theseprinciples together in practice. Additionally, although he defines some basic concepts in book 1, in later books heemploys a number of technical terms and concepts which he defines nowhere else in the book. He seems toassume that the reader is already familiar with many of the basic concepts and technical terminology of astrology,to such an extent that about a century later the Neoplatonic philosopher Porphyry of Tyre thought that it wasnecessary to append an introduction to Ptolemys Tetrabiblos that consisted almost entirely of definitions of basic



technical concepts like overcoming () and spear-bearing (). What we are left withthen is a very concise text that sometimes takes certain concepts for granted. House division may be one of them.

2) One of the things that makes Ptolemys work unique is that he has a tendency to focus primarily on the planetsas significators for certain topics like parents, marriage, character, etc., while at the same time he has a tendency tonot employ houses or Lots for topical purposes, which is what most of his contemporaries like Dorotheus andValens did. This tendency to emphasize the planets anddeemphasize the use of the houses for topical purposes is somarked that at one point Robbins notes that Ptolemy sayslittle about the places (less correctly houses) of ageniture (pg. 267, fn. 3). Now, this is true to a certainextent, but only for topical purposes. For example, Ptolemynever mentions the 7th house in association with the topic ofmarriage, while both Dorotheus and Valens do. However,Ptolemy does refer to the houses quite frequently when itcomes to the concept of angularity. This is the concept thatthe houses follow a specific sequence based on whether theyare moving towards an angle, moving away from an angle, orare at an angle. This was partially conceptualized as providinginformation about both how active and prominent a planet is ina chart, and Ptolemy says at one point that it can also be usedto determine how quickly the significations of a planet willmanifest in the life of the native. There is almost not a singlechapter in books 3 and 4 where Ptolemy does not refer to this concept of angularity, and to the extent that it isrelated to the concept of the houses, which it is closely, Ptolemy actually is using the houses quite frequently. Justnot for topical purposes, but rather primarily for what Schmidt calls dynamic purposes.

Now, that being said, this is not to say that Ptolemy does not use the houses at all for topical purposes. In factthere are several houses that he explicitly uses for topical purposes, and his usage is largely in line with thesignifications that other Hellenistic astrologers ascribe to those houses. For example, at certain points in books 3and 4 he makes the following associations:

The ascendant with the appearance of the native.The 6th house with injuries.The 10th house with career.The 12th house with slaves.The 10th, 11th, 4th and 5th houses with children.

These are the only instances that Ive found in which he associates specific topics with the houses though, and therest of the houses are not mentioned within the context of their topical significations. To some extent this seems toresult from his tendency to act as a reformer of the tradition, and thus we may view his silence on the significationsof some of the houses as a rejection of the traditional associations that many of his contemporaries took forgranted. For example, why doesnt he mention the 3rd house in his chapter on siblings, or the 7th house in hischapter on relationships? On the other hand, his treatments of many of these topics are exceedingly brief, andperhaps it is the case that he would have used more of the traditional topics associated with the houses if he hadchosen to write a larger, more detailed exposition of each topic.

Unfortunately, as it stands, the fact that Ptolemy tends to focus on the planets and downplay the use of the housesfor topical purposes means that there are not many instances in the Tetrabiblos that we can study in order to inferwhat type of house division that he used. In light of this, any references that we do find must be given greaterweight when considering their implications within the context of the work as a whole.

Terminology for Houses

Since different translators use different terminology in order to translate the words that Ptolemy uses to refer to theangularity of the houses, here is a table that lists the words and their usual translations:

kentrn epanaphora apoklimapivot post-ascension declineangle succedent cadent

Additionally, the Hellenistic astrologers originally referred to what modern astrologers call a house as a place(topos). Schmidt always translates topos as place, whereas Robbins will sometimes translate it as house, inkeeping with modern astrological conventions. Keep this in mind when reading quotes from these two translatorsbelow.

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References to Whole Sign Houses in the Tetrabiblos

Ptolemy doesnt refer to the houses very much in book 1, which is where he introduces a number of basic



principles. There is only a brief chapter in which he tries to give a naturalistic rationale for the power of the fourangles, but nothing conclusive is said here about house division. He doesnt even mention the other 8 houses.

In book 2 of the Tetrabiblos, which is on mundane astrology, there are a number of instances in which he employsthe angles, but again nothing conclusive is said in favor of either whole sign or quadrant houses. For that we haveto skip forward to book three, which is where Ptolemy begins his exposition of natal astrology.

Book 3 of the Tetrabiblos

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Chapter 4, Overview of General Procedures

In this chapter Ptolemy provides a broad overview or preview of his general approach to natal astrology, which hethen attempts to employ systematically in subsequent chapters. In the second to last paragraph he says thatplanets are most effective in a nativity when they are angular or succedent. It is here that we find his first referenceto what appears to be whole sign houses:

And they are most effective with respect to the nativity whenever they should be passing through thepivots and the post-ascensional twelfth-parts, and especially the primary pivots (trans. Schmidt, pg.12)

Robbins translates this passage in a way that is in agreement with Schmidt:

whenever they are passing through the angles or signs that rise after them Robbins, pg. 239.

Ptolemy should say places or houses here if he was using quadrant houses. In that case the sentence wouldsay something like whenever they should be passing through the angles and the succedent houses But hedoesnt say that. Instead he refers to the succedent houses as signs. This doesnt make a lot of sense from theperspective of quadrant houses, but it seems quite natural if we consider that Ptolemy may have had whole signhouses in mind.

Chapter 11, Length of Life

This is a famously difficult chapter of Ptolemys text, which has been interpreted a number of different ways byastrologers over the past 1,800 years. It is generally thought that Ptolemy describes a type of quadrant houses inthis chapter. The most important point for our purposes is when he discusses which houses can not be consideredas candidates for being the starting point for the length of life technique. At one point he specifically singles out thetwelfth-part unconnected to the ascendant, which would be the 8th whole sign house, as well as the one thatrises before the ascendant, which is called Evil Spirit (Schmidt, pg. 32)

These instances are strange because he is explicitly referring to the 8th and the 12th houses as signs here,whereas this chapter is usually seen as the point at which Ptolemy introduces some sort of quadrant system. Thisseems problematic because it raises questions about the rest of this chapter, and whether or not some sort ofhybrid whole sign/quadrant house framework is being used for the purpose of the length of life technique.

Robbins translates this passage as follows:

Of the part above the earth it is not fitting to consider either the sign that is disjunct from the ascendant,nor that which rose before it, called the House of the Evil Daemon (pg. 273)

Ptolemy specifically calls the 12th sign the place of the Evil Spirit, not the 12th house. Why is this? Why is hereferring to the signs as houses here if he is not using whole sign houses in some capacity in this instance?

Book 4 of the Tetrabiblos

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Chapter 4, Action/Profession/Praxis

Ptolemy says to focus on two things primarily in order to study this topic: the Sun and the culminating zoidion. (Schmidt, pg. 9) He says this in the first sentence. Then he clarifies in the second sentence that he means the starnearest to the Sun that has already risen heliacally, as well as the one upon the Midheaven. This seems to show



that most of the time he is associating the Midheaven with the culminating sign, and since he is treating themidheaven as a sign this probably implies that it is the 10th whole sign house relative to the ascendant.

The only way this could be interpreted differently is if he means the sign that the degree of the MC falls in, whichperhaps is possible, so we must leave this instance open as somewhat inconclusive, although certainly suggestive.

Chapter 6, Children

In order to study children Ptolemy instructs us to examine the place at the peak or its post-ascension, which arethe 10th and 11th houses. He calls the 11th the Place of Good Spirit, which is the name that other Hellenisticastrologers give to this house as well.

He then says if there are no planets present or configured to those places then to look at the diameters of thoseplaces, which would be the 4th and the 5th places. So, for children Ptolemy basically says to examine the 10th,11th, 4th and 5th houses.

In the third paragraph he makes an important statement about what happens when certain planets are having arelation to the procreative zidia (Schmidt, pg. 27) Later in the sentence he says that the stars whose aspectsare more in excess have the most influence, which makes it clear that having a relation to the procreative zidiarefers to aspecting the houses under consideration that he mentioned at the beginning of the chapter. So, this is aclear reference to whole sign houses since we have caught him explicitly referring to those four houses whichsignify children as signs or zidia rather than just places. Schmidt also points out in a footnote here that this isevidence of Ptolemy using whole sign houses.

Robbins translation of this passage is in agreement with Schmidts:

If both the sects bear some relation to the signs which signify the begetting of children, there will belosses among the children given, either all of them or a few, depending on the superiority of the planetsof either sect that bear witness (Robbins, pg. 411)

In the following paragraph he refers to planets that have authority over the previously mentioned procreativesigns. Schmidt points out in a footnote that based on the earlier statement about planets having a relation thatthis should refer to those planets either being located in or aspecting those signs. If so, then this would be anotherinstance later in the same chapter where Ptolemy is referring to specific houses as signs.

Chapter 7, Friends and Enemies (and Slaves)

Ptolemy makes an explicit reference to whole sign houses in this chapter at one point when he says that the topicof slaves is studied by looking at

the zidion occupying the Evil Spirit, and from the natural fitness of the stars regarding this place inthe nativity itself and by ingress or diametrical opposition, and especially whenever the stars havinglordship over this twelfth-part should be either harmonious with the authoritative places of the nativity orshould make configurations which are opposite. (Schmidt, pg. 33)

This is an unequivocal reference to whole sign houses. He says the sign occupying the Evil Spirit, and then laterrefers to it as both a place and a twelfth-part.

This reference to whole sign houses is less clear in Robbins translation because even though the Greek text thatRobbins prints on the facing page says , which basically means whatSchmidt translated it as, the sign occupying the Evil Spirit, Robbins says house instead of sign.

The special topic or account of slaves and the sympathy or antipathy of their masters to them iselucidated from the house of the Evil Daemon and from the natural suitability of the planets which regardthis place both in the nativity itself and in their ingresses and oppositions to it, particularly when the lordsof the sign are either in harmonious aspect to the principal places of the nativity, or the opposite.(Robbins, pg. 421)

It clearly says zoidion or sign here in the Greek text though, not topos or house.

I suspect that what happened here is that Robbins was not familiar with whole sign houses as a method of housedivision, and so he just substituted the word house for sign because he knew that Ptolemy was referring to the12th house here, but he thought that the text was mistaken by referring to the 12th sign. This is the example that I



mentioned earlier in this article that I think shows that Schmidts awareness of the house division issue made himless prone to making this sort of a mistake when it came to translating passages of Ptolemy that deal with this topic.

Aside from the blatant reference to whole sign houses above, I would also like to point out that at the verybeginning of this chapter Ptolemy seems to define post-ascension or succedent as two planets in adjacentsigns. This could have important implications for when he frequently refers to planets being in a post-ascension orsuccedent place elsewhere in the text within the context of the houses. This statement may mean that all of thoseinstances refer to adjacent signs, which would mean that he is working in a whole sign framework since being in apost-ascension or succedent place is usually a property of the houses. Indeed, it is one of the basiccomponents of the concept of angularity.

Chapter 8, Travel

In the first sentence of this chapter Ptolemy says that the primary criteria for travel is the relationship between thetwo luminaries and the angles. What he ends up establishing is that all of the cadent or declining houses causetravel, as does the 7th house. Vettius Valens, who is Ptolemys contemporary, outlines a similar doctrine in book 4,chapter 12 of the Anthology, where he says that all four cadent houses are associated with foreign lands.

Ptolemy begins giving some specific examples or placements which indicate travel. First he says that when theMoon is cadent or setting that it causes travel. Then he says that when Mars is setting or declining from the placeat the peak, or in other words in the the 9th house, that it also causes travel. Finally, at the end of this paragraphhe says:

And if the Lot of Fortune also should fall out in the zidia that cause being away from home, [thenatives] will continue to have their whole lives and their dwelling and their activities in a foreign land. (Schmidt, pg. 34)

This is an explicit reference to whole sign houses. No specific signs were mentioned at this point in the chapter. The only places of travel that were mentioned so far were houses specifically the four cadent or declininghouses and the 7th house, which is the setting place. But by explicitly referring to these places as signs orzidia Ptolemy is clearly showing again that he is equating houses with the signs. The only explanation for this isthat he is using whole sign houses.

Robbins translation agrees with Schmidts here:

If the Lot of Fortune also falls among the signs that cause travel, the subjects spend their whole livesabroad and will have all their personal relations and business there. (Robbins, pg. 423)

At the end of the third paragraph in this chapter Ptolemy again refers to the zoidia that cause travel, twice.

Finally, at the beginning of paragraph four Ptolemy switches it up and refers to the places that cause travelabroad At this point he is just interchanging the words for signs and houses quite freely, completely blurring anydistinction between them, which only makes sense in a whole sign framework.

Conclusion

Those are the most explicit instances in which Ive found Ptolemy using whole sign houses in the Tetrabiblos. Inmost of the rest of the text he tends to refer to the houses within the context of whether they are angular, succedentor cadent, but he seldom gives any clues as to what form of house division he is using in those instances.

The only exception to this may be in his treatment of the length of life, although it was customary for the Hellenisticastrologers to introduce quadrant systems during the discussion of that specific technique, and there is no reasonto think that the house system that Ptolemy introduces there was meant to be applied outside of that chapter. Ifthat wasnt the case then we would see Valens employing Porphyry houses outside of his chapters on the length oflife treatment in book 3, but there is no evidence for that in his example charts.

Ultimately for me the examples quoted above are sufficient to convince me that Ptolemy was probably using wholesign houses most of the time in his work. He never formally introduces and outlines the topic partially because it issomething that he takes for granted, just like some of the other concepts he uses like overcoming, but alsoperhaps partially because he found it more difficult to rationalize the traditional significations associated with thehouses, and thus they were relegated to a reduced role within his system.

Interestingly, despite his reformist tendencies in downplaying the role of the houses in signifying certain topics, byusing whole sign houses, Ptolemy brings himself into line with his contemporaries such as Dorotheus and Valens,thus allowing us to see Ptolemy as not as much of an outlier after all.



8 Responses to Did Ptolemy Use Whole Sign Houses?

dr. farr says:DECEMBER 8, 2011 AT 11:22 PM

Excellent points!

Eddy says:DECEMBER 11, 2011 AT 4:40 AM

I felt it would be better to post here, than in the discussion thread you referred to.

Thank you very much Chris for replying to my comment that whole sign proponents should demonstratePtolemys usage of whole sign houses as well. In the world of astrology it unfortunately is a rare event to see thatpeople take the trouble to give a clear and substantive reply to a question which needs a well studied reply. So Ifeel quite honored to see a 10 page reply on the subject.

I wonder what other scholars in ancient Greek, like Giuseppe Bezza (as mentioned by the member Margherita inthe Skyscript thread, and who thinks that its not exactly sure what method Ptolemy used) would think of this.Unfortunately, I dont know ancient Greek (nor Latin), so Im not in a position to comment on the matter. Ive readPtolemy in Robbins translation and found it quite difficult to understand what Ptolemy means. I read Book I, and Ithink I understand most of it, Book II I read parts and also believe to get a grasp of it. But I only read severalparts of III and IV because the obscurity of many texts makes it incomprehensible.

Although several things of your article still need to sink in, I have two questions:

Quoting Chris Brennan: In this chapter Ptolemy provides a broad overview or preview of his general approach tonatal astrology, which he then attempts to employ systematically in subsequent chapters. In the second to lastparagraph he says that planets are most effective in a nativity when they are angular or succedent. It is here thatwe find his first reference to what appears to be whole sign houses:And they are most effective with respect to the nativity whenever they should be passing through the pivots andthe post-ascensional twelfth-parts, and especially the primary pivots (trans. Schmidt, pg. 12) Does this then mean that the concept of using quadrant systems to determine planetary strength and whole signhouses for topical delineation is a modern interpretation? From Schmidts translation above I understand that thesigns 90 away from the ascending sign are considered the most effective and not the MC (as intersection ofmeridian and ecliptic) area.Which somewhat leads to the following question:Doesnt it disturb you to see that only for the length of life procedure, a quadrant system is used with housesstarting 5 before the ascendant?Perhaps these houses may also be Porphyry as used by Valens (as you mention in your conclusion) with the 5rule as the only difference.Moreover if this primary directions type of death prediction is not used for other predictions then, after havingdetermined the year of death, the only prediction tools would be planetary periods, profections and transits.I think it would have been easy enough for Ptolemy to use a method more related to the motion of the ascendantalone. Somewhat like an ascendant arc method which (like the modern solar arc progressions) move theplanets with the same speed as the ascendant. Perhaps this is what Ptolemy referred to when he rejected theusual method in his introduction to the time of life calculation, and in combination with the ancient method ofcalculating the rising times of signs which doesnt correspond with the spherical trigonometric methods applied byPtolemy.


I think this sentence might be misread as if you would have suggested this:Perhaps these houses may also be Porphyry as used by Valens (as you mention in your conclusion) with the 5rule as the only difference.I mean that you mentioned Valens to have used Porphyry and I suggest that Ptolemy could have used alsoPorphyry with 5rule.

Chris Brennan says:DECEMBER 17, 2011 AT 3:59 AM

Hi Eddy,

Sorry for the delay. To respond to your questions:

1. Yes, I think that Schmidts argument that quadrant systems were used to determine planetary strength whilewhole sign houses were used for topical delineations is only really accurate within the context of the length of lifetechnique. I think that it was a brilliant argument, but I dont think that Schmidt went far enough when he wrote itin explicitly saying that this distinction only applies to one technique, as elsewhere whole sign houses areregularly used to study both topics and angularity. I suspect that Schmidt would probably agree with this point.

2. The use of quadrant houses just for the purposes of the length of life treatment doesnt disturb me very much,no. From a historical perspective that is just the way it was, as far as I can tell. From a practical perspective Immore disturbed by the fact that later Hellenistic astrologers seem to have tried to blend quadrant and whole signhouses, so that apparently they were not satisfied in restricting quadrant houses to one technique. This housedivision schism still needs to be sorted out at some point by contemporary practitioners.



Anthony says:DECEMBER 19, 2011 AT 5:38 PM

Hi Chris,

Very interesting and thorough post. It makes me want to have a copy of Schmidts Tetrabiblos. The Robbins onecan be confusing at times (as others have pointed out).

I get the sense that Ptolemy was trying as he may to avoid the houses altogether, but in the few instances heuses them he goes with whole sign, because thats what was typical of the astrology of his day. In other words,that he seems to be trying to move away from houses in a sense, and particularly the use of houses rulers asimportant for topics, instead emphasizing natural significators and their rulers, and when houses do come upusing them more in terms of angular places and their following signs. He does seem to value the angularity ofplaces and certain general features, and places a lot of importance on the signs, due to the seasons, butaltogether is moving away from place symbolism, perhaps because it is too magical for his causal system.Correct me if Im wrong here.

Another instance of whole sign houses is in Ptolemys profections discussion near the end of Book IV, giving ayear to each sign and its ruler.

On a side note, I like the house division resolution proposal given by Dykes in (his introduction to) Introductionsto Traditional Astrology, in which the 8 angular/succedent whole sign places are more important/dominant/activetopics in the life (particularly the angular ones), the 7 good places (1st, 11th, 10th, 9th, 7th, 5th, 4th) are morebeneficially-oriented to the person, and angularity in the quadrant-houses sense is tied to the notion ofAdvancing/Retreating as indicative of general strength but not of topics (I dont have it in front of me, so hopefullyIm representing his views there accurately). Thats the approach that I myself use, for the most part, and find tobe most effective from a practical standpoint, even though its eclectic.


Hi Chris,

Thanks for the clarifications of the two points. The house division schism probably will never end. Since I startedreading about astrology, I immediately felt attracted to Keplers views, and hardly make use of houses and signs.However, I refer to them in forum discussions. In modern days the discussion about house divisions sometimesare abstrahised to discussions about which reference frame to use. After experimenting and theorising a bit, Iusually return to the ecliptic reference frame as the most perfect frame to use. I believe that from this, one canderive that the best divisions would be equal and whole divisions. The unequal systems often are only aprojection of different reference frames on the ecliptic.

The explanation of Ptolemys views in Anthonys post (if correct) are what attracts me in Ptolemy. I too prefernatural astrology. And admittedly, Ptolemy is the only classical astrologer of whom I read something. UnlessKepler is considered classical too. (I dont count my attempts of reading the Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra.)

Phil says:FEBRUARY 17, 2012 AT 8:50 AM

Chris,

Thanks for your excellent article. How would planetary strength assignment philosophically proceed from houseplacement if, as in whole sign houses, the MC can vary in house location? Would the 10th house, e.g., beangular if the MC were in the 11th? Im no advocate of either system and am a novice, but am curious.

Thanks,

Phil

Peter says:FEBRUARY 24, 2013 AT 7:21 PM

Hello, Chris & Everyone

Im delighted to find this post and conversation, even though Ive arrived here rather late.

If there is agreement on the validity of Whole Sign houses, then using a second system to determine planetarystrength seems somewhat contrived

Considering the antiquity of Whole Sign and the fact that Indian astrologers still use it, certainly puts it on verysolid ground.

Each quadrant house used will render different results, so a planet may be angular in one system and cadent inthe next . I have an article on my blog wherein I used (I think) seven quadrant systems in relation to a WS chart.to show this

Thanks again

Im wondering why WS couldnt be used alone for a variety of purposes.

hellenisticastrology.comDid Ptolemy Use Whole Sign Houses?

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Ptolemy and Whole Sign Houses