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7/28/2019 Positive Psychology: Powerful Interventions for Helping Clients Change
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Speakers:
Mr Clinton Power
Founder and Website Concept Developer-Australia Counselling & Consulting Pty Ltd
Relationship Counsellor for Individuals and Couples
Clinical Counsellor and Gestalt Therapist
www.ClintonPower.Com.Au
Ms Kate Lemerle
Psychologist, Professional Life Coaching & Mentoring
Owner at Chrysalis Wellness Services, Springfield, Queenslandwww.Chrysalis54.Com.Au
www.AustraliaCounselling.Com.Au
Positive Psychology:
Powerful Interventions for Helping
Clients Change
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[START OF AUDIO]
Clinton Power: Hello! This is Clinton Power from AustraliaCounselling.Com.Au. And
today, Im here with my colleague, Dr Kate Lemerle, who is the Director and Founder of
Chrysalis Wellness Services.
She is a registered psychologist with over 30 years counselling experience in community
health settings, student services, rehabilitation services, and private practice. Dr Lemerle has
been involved in setting up community health promotion programs in rural communities of
New South Wales and Queensland. She has published several book chapters on childrens
resilience and is internationally recognized for her research on teachers stress, promoting
resilience in children, and school-based interventions for promoting positive mental health in
children from culturally diverse background.
She provides intern supervision and training programs for psychologists, social workers,
and others working in the health mental health services, as well as regular community
workshops to promote positive health and well-being. Her academic experience includes
lecturing in health promotion, social work and developmental psychology, abnormal
psychology, positive psychology, and coaching. And today, Im here with Kate to talk about
positive psychology and her perspective on how you can bring positive psychology into your
practice with the client.
So welcome, Kate. Its great to have you on the call.
Kate Lemerle: Thanks very much, Clinton, and thanks for that very broad introduction.
Clinton: Well, lets dive straight in. Can you give us a brief definition of positive
psychology for those who perhaps arent familiar with it?
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Were looking at their engagement. How many times are they actively engaging in
activities that give them a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning, a sense of fulfilment. We look
at their relationships, what are they doing to nurture their relationships to maintain strong and
healthy relationships. We look at what they define themselves as individuals as giving them
purpose and meaning.
I guess those big questions of why am I here?, what is it that I am really here to
achieve? And that takes us on to the final point of paying attention to the accomplishments
that we make, the achievements, the things that we do get done each day. So in a therapeutic
sense for example, we may be working with someone who has a depressive illness, who is
focusing very much on their negative thoughts and negative feelings, on the things that theyre
not getting done through the day.
By setting them small tasks to change their thinking habits and to change the way in
which theyre behaving, we can actually get them to really work through that depression and
make changes that are lasting for a lifetime.
Clinton: So this I understand is quite a paradigm shift from maybe classic psychotherapy
which does tend to I guess focus at times on in a trauma or abuse or the negative emotions, the
negative experiences that people have in their life. I think Im hearing is you really to start to
draw out the positive aspects of a persons life and to try to expand those.
Kate: Absolutely, yes. In a practical sense what wed be looking at with that person is
what they define as their strengths. How have theyve got through some of those difficult life
experiences that they may be spending a lot of time ruminating about, mulling it over in their
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mind, giving those negative life experiences far too much time of day rather than looking at
what was it that helped me to get through that experience?
Clearly I have because its become an experience in my past. But how did I manage to
survive that ordeal and grow stronger for it. So the whole area on post-traumatic growth is
another spin off from positive psychology as well. And looking at what weve learned from
those negative experiences or adversities and so on, and how were putting those that learning
into practice on a day-to-day basis.
Clinton: Whats the kind of research base of positive psychology?
Kate: Sure. Good question, Clinton. Theres a lot of research now, masses amounts of
research that are being done all around the world that are providing a really solid evidence
based on a number of the interventions that are being applied over recent years or being
developed over recent years, but also evidence from neuroscience in terms of how a lot of
these interventions and really quite brief interventions as well are having a profound effect on
brain function.
Clinton: Wow, so neuroscience is having quite an impact on the overall status of
positive psychology as well?
Kate: Yes, absolutely. I think this has been fostered to a large extent by the
development of technology. Obviously, we have far more sophisticated equipment now. For
example, were able to see single neurons firing in the brain. When people are put in to an
FMRI machine and their brain is being mapped as theyre dealing with problems or thinking
about particular issues in their lives, we can actually see which parts of the brain are activating.
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And we realized nowfor example, take something as simple as emotional experiences
which is obviously something where we are often working therapeutically, we can see that
where we used to think that on the limbic system of the deep parts of the brain, the amygdala
for example, were the only parts of the brain being activated.
When we were experiencing negative emotions, we now know that there are
established pathways between the limbic system and right through to the frontal lobes which
are the part of the brain that do executive functioning, higher level, abstract thinking, and so
on.
So we realized that theres a very strong cognitive component to our emotional
reactions as well. This is just one example where neuroscience is starting to give us a lot more
evidence. I think a lot of research has been done and put into the public arena recently by
Norman Doidge, for example, who published a book a few years back called The Brain that
Changes Itself.
This was really ground breaking in terms of pulling together all the research about how
our thinking, turning our minds to dealing with problems can actually physically change the
structure and function of our brain, and start activating parts of our brain that perhaps have not
being well-developed and dampening down those parts of the brain. For example, the
amygdala and limbic system that might be causing us a lot of unpleasant experiences in our
day-to-day lives.
Clinton: These are really fascinating time for research and for particularly the
neurosciences relationship with psychotherapy. But what is the research saying about the
effectiveness of positive psychology and working specifically with depression and anxiety?
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Kate: Yes, good question as well. I think these days all of us working as practitioners
want to know that what were doing does have a good evidence base to it and that theres
good research to support it. Australia is actually being one of the pioneering countries in the
world doing research, evaluating the effectiveness of positive psychology interventions.
A number of very profound studies are being conducted since about 2003, looking
particularly at people who are undergoing coaching programs, and coaching of course is one
way of applying positive psychology. For example, one study looked at goal attainment and
compared people who undertook a 10-week coaching program, compared to a no-treatment
control group.
They actually found that the people who underwent the coaching program, which
looked at focusing on their achievements, setting themselves achievable task, reflecting
everyday on their accomplishments, attending to positive moments, engaging in mindfulness
activities and so on. People who did this actually significantly increased their goal attainment.
And these were people who have been struggling with achieving the outcomes they wanted for
quite some time.
Another study looked at depression and anxiety and stress reactions, and similarly
compared people who took part in a series of positive psychology interventions. Package does
a coaching program. These were peer coaching as well. So they were not necessarily even
achieving or undergoing a coaching program with a professional. They were peer coaching
each other and significant declines in depression, anxiety, and stress.
Another study looked at life satisfaction and psychological well-being. And again,
compared control groups with those who underwent a number of the positive psychology
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interventions. So for example, writing gratitude letter, practicing mindfulness, meditations for
short periods each day and so on. And we saw quite profound increases in life satisfaction and
psychological well-being.
These sorts of studies are being replicated obviously in many other parts of the world
but also research on positivity coming out of the states Barbara Fredricksons research on
positivity. Shes been doing a lot of evidence based research, comparing different approaches
and has been able to identify for example in working with people with depression that if we can
replace one negative thought with three positive thoughts, it seems to create what we refer to
as a tipping point where peoples depression starts to decline and their sense of optimism and
hope for the future increases steadily from that point on.
Simple exercises of getting people to record each day three positive experiences that
theyve had. These might be very minor experiences such as enjoying their cup of coffee in the
morning and really savouring the flavour of that. Going for a walk and really engaging in the
smells and the sounds of the sights that they see.
Very simple activities that can be part of persons day-to-day life, but taking the time to
fully engage mindfully and savour these experiences, and then perhaps use those as positive
reflections later in the day. Very powerful in terms of turning around depression and anxiety
problems.
Clinton: Its very exciting to hear you say this, Kate, because gathering the evidence is
quite compelling for using positive psychology strategies and theories- methodologies in your
therapeutic work.
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Kate: It certainly is, yes. I think in certainly the years that Ive been working within a
positive psychology framework, particularly in the academic environment as well. Ive been
encountered a lot of scepticism. I think when new theories emerged on the market, people
tend to be justified by sceptical about it. And say, Well letsjust be a bit cautious about this
until the evidence starts to roll-in.
But were certainly seeing now some really amazing studies coming in. I guess one of
the most impressive has been the work thats being done by Seligman, and Christopher
Peterson, and so on in the U.S., where theyve established a database of strengths using the
VIA-Values In Action Strengths Inventory.
Well over 2 million people worldwide have completed that survey online, and the data
thats being collected from that is now be ing used for a lot of profiling work. But also being
used to identify what people are actually doing that is increasing their use of their strengths or
their character strengths, those resources that we have within ourselves that helps us remain
resilient and cope with adversities. So really huge database and very powerful evidence thats
coming out of research now.
Clinton: Thats extraordinary. What are you seeing in terms of its effectiveness in
working with relationships and couples? Does it have applications there?
Kate: Yes. This is an interesting area. I think a lot of people within counselling can shy
away from working with couples because obviously its a fairly complex area. Youre not just
working with one person but youre working with two, and often youre working with the
impact of extended family, which is affecting the couple relationship as well.
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I do a lot of marriage counselling in my work and Im very much actively engaging
positive psychology as a framework that Im using. So getting people to think about or getting
couples to think about their emotional bank account, this is a concept that comes from
Gottmans work, where youre getting them to look at each other and identify what it is they
admire about each other, what is it that they appreciate about either the person with whom
theyre sharing their life or the actions or behaviours of that person.
Doing simple things like writing gratitude letters. These days people dont write letters,
they text. But even by sending a gratitude text through your partner through the day we find
that increases peoples moods and their positivity. So really what were doing here is trying to
reactivate that sense of attachment and that sense of belonging, which we know from many
years back, I guess thinking of Maslows hierarchy of needs. One of our most fundamental
needs is a sense of belonging and attachment.
So if you find youre working with a couple where connection with each other has
become strained, getting them to actively engage in things that is strengthening that
attachment. So building up that emotional bank account. Not just saying thank you to each
other. For example, if someone has unpacked the dishwasher, its very easy just to say thank
you rather than saying, I really appreciate you unpacking the dishwasher. This has freed me
up to spend a bit more time doing something that I enjoy, and I really appreciate the help that
youre giving me.
It takes a little bit more time, but it actually has far deeper impact on a couple
relationship. We also look at things like how often do these people play together, how often do
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they activate humour. Do they engage in laughing together? What do they do in terms of
reminiscing about the positive times that they have had?
Typically, in a strained relationship, theres a lot amount of energy being invested in
whats missing or whats gone missing or whats not working rather than saying, Well, lets pay
attention to what is working. We are still here with each other, we havent walked away. So
how can we start to build on the strengths that are still existing no matter how flimsy they may
be.
And of course, basic communication skills. Teaching couples positive problem solving
which is moving them beyond the arguments about what the problem may be, and typically the
tangents that are brought in many red herrings are dragged into couple arguments.
But to say, Lets focus on one particular problem, lets set aside a period of time, lets
address this in the same way as we would if we are having a board meeting at work. There is
an issue that needs to be resolved. We need to consider our options or how we might go about
solving that. We need to weigh out the pros and cons of those.
Were teaching couples basic problem-solving getting them to rehearse those are part
of coaching process within the therapeutic appointment that they have and then going home
with homework exercises so that were aiming to get that transfer of learning across to their
home environment.
Clinton: And how are you seeing the couples you work with response to these positive
psychology interventions and what outcomes you seen?
Kate: Yeah, a couple of good examples. Im working with a couple at the moment, lets
call them Bob and Mary. Bob and Mary actually grew up living opposite each other, so theyve
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known each other for most of their lives. They had a bit of a relationship, a bit of an adolescent
fling, and when they were about 15 or 16, Bob then moved away, moved interstate. And
shortly after moving into state, Mary discovered that she was pregnant. I think she was about
17 or 18 at that time.
So theyve had a long relationship, roughly around 20 years. Theyve got two children
now, their first child and a subsequent child. They came to counselling because they were
feeling as if their relationship had just run its course.
They were finding it very boring and uninteresting. Not spending a lot of time with each
other. Not unhappy, but not happy. And I think this is a good example of a couple where you
can very quickly apply positive psychology interventions.
What I did with them was to get them to start reflecting on experiences that theyve
have had of over 20 years of knowing each other, and what were the high points. Each of them
had to make a list of three to five experiences that they have had with the other person that
really gave them a warm feeling inside that it was a nice good positive memory that they had.
And then to sit down with each other and exchange lists and spend five minutes talking about
those experiences.
They were quite surprised that they both identified very similar experiences that they
recalled those same events, and actually found that theyre quite humorous events, funny
things that have happened along the journey that theyve had with each other. They actually
came back up to their first sessions saying that it was amazing that theyd actual ly sat down and
talk with each other more deeply and more meaningfully. And they had some laughs together
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because they remembered each of them remembered different aspects of those funny
experiences.
Immediately, they had started reconnecting with each other and as they both said , We
were actually talking. This is the first time for years that weve sat down and we really had a
conversation with each other that wasnt about the children or wasnt about who puts the
garbage bins out, and this sort of thing.
So this is a good example. We then moved on and got them to start practicing
expressing appreciation in the way that I explained earlier. Not just saying thank you but to
express appreciation to give each other gratitude letter once a week, a short overview of the
reasons why they each value having that person in their lives.
And theyre coming back now saying that they actually feel closer than they ever have in
their lives, and that they putting that down to the fact that they have obviously matured along
the way. But now theyre looking at each other almost through fresh eyes for the first time that
theyre seeing each other as adults and theyre adult companions.
Its a very successful story, obviously not all of them end quite so successfully. But even
getting a couple to the point where they realized that they have so little in common that
walking away from each other and moving on is a dignified way of dealing with their
relationship, and doing that with grace rather than doing that with acrimony and hatred and
dissatisfaction.
Clinton: Absolutely! But as I was listening to you speak, Kate, I was just imagining we
couldnt certainly rule out that something neurologically was happening to that couple as they
started to implement your interventions.
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Kate: Thats right. Yes, Im sure if we could take bio-chemical studies wed see
increasing levels of serotonin happening in their brains, wed certainly be seeing their mirror
neurons being activated. This again is where were seeing some very exciting work in the areas
of neuroscience, and this whole new discovery of mirror neurons which are basically activated
when we see another person having an emotional experience.
We experience to some extent that emotions ourselves. A classic example of this that
helps people understand, where watching a movie, theres something really sad happening in
the movie, and we immediately start to feel sad. We empathise with the person whos
experiencing that sad occurrence within the movie.
Now, in our minds we can say of course these are just actors, its not really happening to
this person. But because theyre exhibiting a sad emotion, we have that sad feeling ourselves.
Likewise, if we go around and we look at people who are expressing happiness and so on, we
feel warm inside when we see a young couple who are obviously very much in love with each
other. We might gaze longingly at that, but we thinkyou know that lovely feeling to see that
expressed.
When we are engaging in this our mirror neurons that are being activated are very
simple intervention that we can get couples to do for example is just to sit and smile at each
other. This immediately activates those mirror neurons, raises serotonin levels, and starts
activating those positive parts of the brain.
Clinton: Its exciting work. You mentioned before coaching relationships, and Im
curious, how do you use interventions in the workplace? Is it a similar strategy or a different
perspective?
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Kate: Workplace is a more complex setting because obviously you are dealing with
organizational factors there. Some of those may be quite flexible and of course obviously, in
other work places the emotional experiences that people are having could be very much a
consequence of organisational practices and those things like workplace morale and so on.
I actually do take a few clients employee-assistance program referrals. So these are
people who are coming for counselling sometimes for personal reasons, but more often than
not because they are experiencing discomfort, unpleasantness in the environment at work, for
example, bullying and harassment and so on.
Obviously, to some extent our hands are tied in that case. We cantjust go back to the
organisation and say, You need to completely turn around the way youre treating your
workers. This tends not to go down very well, but getting people on an individual basis to do
very simple things as Ive already expressed, acts of kindness towards other people.
So rather than withdrawing and sort of isolating themselves in the workplace to go out
of their way to do an act of kindness for somebody else even if that person has done them
wrong in some way.
Writing a forgiveness letter, simply forgiving someone for behaving in a way that has
affected the individual negatively in some way, upset them in some way, frightened them in
some way and so on. To be able to step back and to forgive has a very powerful effect onI
guess rebuilding that sense of positivity that people can have.
Simply smiling at people going in to work and smiling and saying, Good morning I hope
you have a lovely day. One thing that I know is done in a number of workplaces, and Ive
heard about this being done in a number of workplaces is leaving anonymous notes on
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somebodys desk or on their computer thanking them for some particular quality that that
person brings in to the workplace.
Obviously, this can have quite a profound effect on your boss to leave a note saying , I
really appreciate you for This particular character strength, your humour or your flexibility
or your open mindedness. But try and to look at that person through fresh eyes and say, We
all have deficits, we all have character flaws, but we also all have strengths.
I think in the work place, we dont express enough of those strengths. We tend to stay around
the water cooler winging and griping rather than saying, Im grateful that I m here because
Clinton: And the picture youre painting for me, Kate, is a lot of these interventions can
be quite simple and quite small, but as you say profound and powerful.
Kate: Absolutely, yeah, very much so.
Clinton: Can you give us maybe share with us an example of someone you worked
within a coaching situation or a workplace that you had a really good outcome with using
positive psychology interventions?
Kate: Yes, I can. One lady that I was seeing whoshe was a workplace referral initially
and transferred across go to mental healthcare plan and came across as a private client for a
treatment for depression. A lot of people are coming with depressive illnesses and anxiety.
She was particularly depressed. She was really quite suicidal when I first saw her.
So this is a good indicator how serious the problem is for her. Very, very frustrated in
her work place, very dissatisfied with the job that she was doing, so that was contributing to
her depression. But also she was very socially isolated. She had moved up to Queensland
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about five or six years earlier from somewhere in New South Wales, but hadnt managed to
establish to a circle of friends.
She was very isolated. She had actually taken on foster caring, so she was foster caring
for children on weekends. But on the weekends that she didnt have the children that she was
caring for, she would literally spend the entire weekend in bed and very depressed, a lot of
suicidal rumination and so on.
Obviously, I started by some of the more traditional approaches working with
depression just trying to get her to become more physically active particularly in most
weekends where she was not having the kids with her. Getting her to get out for walks and
start practicing some mindfulness activity so that while she was walking, she was noticing how
her body felt. She was paying attention to the things that she could smell and see and hear
around her rather than engaging in a sort of very negative self-destructive thinking.
I got her doing an activity where at the end of every day she had to reflect back over the
things that she had done well through the day and what exactly she had achieved and what
strengths of hers she had drawn on. She actually went online and did the VIA character
strength survey. And so that became a core tool that we use in the work with her.
So having identified her top strengths, she was able to actively use those. Then we
moved towards building optimism rather than this constant focus on pessimism by getting her
to identify things that she could do. Not the things that she should do, because she was doing a
lot of this already berating herself saying, I should be doing this, but I cant get myself
activated to do it.
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We started with just with just possibilities. What could you do on a weekend when you
dont have the kids that might be reaching some of those goals that youve set for yourself?
And she identified building up stronger social networks. Obviously, this is a very important part
of well-being is that sense connection with other people that sense of belonging that I
mentioned earlier.
She began to set herself tasks where on that weekend, her primary task was to phone
one of her friends in New South Wales and have a chat on half an hour, which she identified as
this was quite achievable. And then at the end of the day, she could reflect back on that.
We use a shift in language here rather than ruminating which is focusing more on the negatives.
We have people to reminisce or think back and reflect on the positive experiences.
She had to start keeping a journal of the positive experiences that shed had each day,
how shed activated her strengths and how she might go about activating her strengths o r
putting those into practice more actively in the future.
She made very, very steady progress. Within a matter of a couple of sessions, her
suicidal ideation had really seriously dropped back to virtually nothing. Very occasionally it
would creep in. She was actually feeling a lot more optimistic about going to work. She had
had a number of discussions with her boss about her dissatisfaction and had been able to
negotiate a greater diversification of tasks that she was able to do at work.
And of course then this sets up a positive feedback loop. So because she was being
challenged more at work, she was thinking more creatively, she was enjoying that intellectual
challenge of the job that she had to do, and then obviously something more positive that she
could reflect back on at the end of each day and set herself tasks to grow herself.
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So where she identified certain self-limiting beliefs, for example, that were holding her
back, she was able to I guess use a lot of the cognitive therapies that arent traditional therapies
to identify those but to replace those and mentally rehearse having positive thoughts about
herself, seeing herself at her best and doing some mental rehearsal of herself having an
excellent day where she felt satisfied and fulfilled, and looking at meaning and purpose.
We started to think more big picture about this job is one stepping stone. This is where
you are at the present. But where would you like to be at the end of your working career?
What would you like to be able to reflect back on and say , This is the journey that Ive
travelled that has been part of my working career, my jobs that Ive achieved and this is how
Ive grown from each job so in a sense taking some ofStephen Coveys work and saying begin
with the ended mind, looking and then turning around and looking backwards and say, Well,
this is where we start to make plans. And identify perhaps this job has a time limit to it, but
over the next one to two years, where would you see yourself taking the next step in your
career pathway.
In a matter of six to eight sessions, she really accomplished an enormous amount of
turnaround and is thriving as a consequence. So it really does have a powerful effect when we
apply this systematically.
Clinton: Thats a fantastic case study, Kate. Im taking furious notes here myself
because I feel so inspired. Again, just about this very simple and powerful methodologies that
youre speaking about. Im aware that you have a training for clinicians coming up on the 4th
of
May in Brisbane around this very topic positive psychology. Tell us a little bit about the
training for therapists that might be interested in this.
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Kate: Yes. Thanks for the opportunity to do this. Theres not a lot of positive
psychology training that is available to counsellors and mental health practitioners and so on.
Ive actually been teaching a course at the University of Southern Queensland over the last
couple of years and I have developed a number of programs.
What Im looking at doing is introducing just a very basic one day overview called
Positive Psychology in Practice. And this will cover the theory behind what Ive been talking
about today looking particularly at the research evidence that supports these different
interventions that we applied.
So were looking at giving people a more solid understanding of psychological theories.
Where does positive psychology come from? What branches of psychology that we may
already be familiar with are actually feeding in and supporting this new way of working? In
particular though, what I want to do is to spend the bulk of the day actually giving people case
studies where theyll be working on identifying what particular intervention would be a
powerful by working with this particular client.
Im looking at dividing it into doing a number a case of studies where were looking at
clinical situations, so people presenting with psychological health problems, looking at groups.
A lot of work is now being done both in schools, in school settings, workplace settings are
starting to come on board.
But were seeing a big burst of growth with not only states but also nations are taking
on board this whole notion of measuring positivity and well-being. We give a few examples of
some of these exciting work thats happening but more importantly give people the
opportunity to pick up some of these skills and practice, and look particularly at the
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interventions that have a good research evidence-based. It wont be just talk and chalk, itll be
very hands on as well.
Clinton: Fantastic! It sounds like a wonderful training. For those therapists who
perhaps cant get to Brisbane to your training, do you offer distance supervision or training for
people in other states?
Kate: Yes, I do. Im available for supervision. There are details about that on my
website for people who might be interested with our wonderful technology of Skype, we can all
be on opposite ends of the earth and still communicate effectively. So supervision is available.
I have a number of interns who are doing their Psychology Board of Australia, 4 + 2 pathway, so
theyre picking up these skills in positive psychology, and also running workshops for
organisations who are interested in getting their staff trained in applying this within the
workplace setting as well.
Clinton: So just tell us, whats your website, Kate, and the best way for people to
contact you.
Kate: The website iswww.Chrysalis54.Com.Au .
Clinton: Great! So the whole information will be on there. And if youre interested in
registering for the workshop, that is also on Kates website,www.Chrysalis54.Com.Au. And just
to end, Kate, any other resources or books that you recommend to therapists who really want
to start to dip their toes in the waters of positive psychology.
Kate: Yeah, sure. I think you cant go pass Barbara Fredricksons book on Positivity.
This has been out for a number of years now, but it really is fundamental research but also a
very handy little paperback that gives very practical tips as well. A book that I find particularly
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helpful in coming out with interventions for clients is Sarah Corries book, The Art of Inspired
Living. This is just a self-help book but theres some very practical exercises you can get in that
as well.
Bob Murrays book, Creating Optimism is another self-help program. Its particularly
targeting depression and has a lot of the positive psychology interventions in it. For people
who are sort of interested in the broad theory behind positive psychology, again, I dont think
you can go pass Corey Keyes book called Flourishing and of course Martin Seligmans recent
book that came out as well on Flourishing.
Theres a new book by Laurel Mellin. I havent actually read this myself yet, but Im
really looking forward to starting called Wired for Joy. This is again very easy to read little
paperback. But it looks at the neuroscience behind the positivity and applications of positive
psychology. So that gives you a bit of a broader view of the books that are on my must read
list.
Clinton: Great! And well put the links of those books in the replay page as well. Its so
tangible your passion for this area, Kate, and I really appreciate your time and generosity in
particular sharing case studies which I know I find so helpful. And I imagine so many other
therapists find it very helpful.
So I hope we can speak again in the future. I wish you all the best for your training, and
thank you again.
Kate: Thank you, Clinton. Have a fantastic day!
Clinton: Bye for now.
Kate: Bye!
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Visit http://www.australiacounselling.com.au for more information and resources for therapists
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