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Interview with the Italian film director gillopontecorvo, Rome, Italy, 1 July 2003Published online: 18 Aug 2006.

To cite this article: (2005) Interview with the Italian film director gillo pontecorvo, Rome, Italy,1 July 2003, Interventions: International Journal of Postcolonial Studies, 7:1, 107-117, DOI:10.1080/1369801052000330388

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I N T E R V I E W W I T H T H E I TA L I A N F I L M

D I R E C T O R G I L L O P O N T E C O R V O , R O M E ,

I TA LY, 1 J U LY 2 0 0 3

Why did you make The Battle of Algiers in 1966, such a long time after

Algerian independence? Why not in 1962?

One should keep in mind that an idea for a film comes by chance. In Italy at

the time there was a very strong attention to politics. The country was much

more attentive than it is now. One of the things that most interested young

people, but also us young Italians, were the liberation struggles in general,

against the remnants of colonialism, especially France, which was for

obvious reasons very close �/ almost related �/ to our own country. The idea

for the film came to us just like that, because that’s how ideas happen in the

movies. It would probably have been better if we’d had the idea three years

earlier, but never mind.

Why were you particularly interested in the Algerian independence struggle

as opposed to other struggles?

I just said why, because of [Italy’s] link with France. Moreover, in that time

�/ I remember this wistfully �/ our country, like many other European

countries, was much more attentive to politics in general than today.

Nowadays, after all, there is a pernicious lack of attention.

So throughout Italy there was quite a widespread involvement in the

Algerian liberation struggle?

......................................................................................interventions Vol. 7(1) 107�/117 (ISSN 1369-801X print/1469-929X online)

Copyright # 2005 Taylor & Francis Group Ltd DOI: 10.1080/1369801052000330388

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Yes, of course, there was a very widespread involvement. In some student

circles, they even cheered for the Algerian victories, but not for antipathy

towards France, only for the part of France that was colonialist. It was a

homage to a struggle that was emblematic of all the liberation struggles

taking place in the world.

And this of course was based on a political belief, obviously? The methods of

this struggle were anyway those of a leftist, marxist struggle; the interest in

the Algerian liberation movement was an interest in revolution, a total class

revolution, it was not only a rebellion against France, I would imagine.

I think one can say that this was definitely one of its components, especially

among the more leftist fringes. But, in general, colonialism, in that fiercely

politicized era, was considered a negative thing one had to fight against, and

one had to cheer every time it was defeated.

Did the idea to make the film come to you shortly after Algerian

independence took place?

Yes, but, I repeat, the ideas for a film come to one just like that; who knows

why they come to you at that moment. Probably the interest in this

[Algerian] struggle was much stronger three years earlier, but the idea for a

film is something separate, it’s linked to the mental planning of a director

who thinks about certain themes, certain images, a certain style of film. It

depends on a thousand different factors, that aren’t only political.

How did the collaboration between you and Saadi Yacef, the head of Casbah

Films, come about?

Franco Solinas and I wanted to make a film against colonialism, and we had

prepared a film called Para , namely paratroopers, which was a story about

Indochina, France and Indochina. They had talked about our project on

television. So the Algerians, who knew our interests lay in this direction, and

in particular Yacef Saadi who was the head of Casbah [Films], but was also a

commander of the resistance fighters, came to Italy to propose a story about

their liberation struggle. It was a small treatment, not longer than forty

pages; he proposed it to [Francesco] Rosi, [Luchino] Visconti, and myself.

The first two were shooting or preparing a film. They gave it to me, I read

the thing and it was so hagiographic, so full of self-praise, that I said, ‘Look,

I wouldn’t dream of making this film, but if you give us a free hand, if you

give us the green light, Solinas and I [will do it], even at our own risk,

without being paid.’ We told him we could try, even at the risk that he

wouldn’t like it, to write what we would do to tell this story. We wrote a

interventions �/ 7 :1 108.........................

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treatment of about fifty pages, they fully approved of it, and it took off, so to

speak . . . . So then we started our own preparations, in the sense that we took

eight months and went to Algeria, to the casbah, but also to Paris, to talk

with the ex-military men, the para commanders, etc., so as to have a really

complete picture. After that we wrote the script, which [Casbah Films] liked.

And the military commanders consented to speak with you? Were they

willing to talk?

Yes. They didn’t have a clear idea [of what we were doing], in the sense that

we told them that we were making a film about their struggle in Algeria, and

they would tell us . . . and well, paras are certainly not lacking in narcissism.

And they didn’t imagine that you would make such a film?

They didn’t know, I had told them I was making a historical film on that

period.

Did you meet people from the FLN [Front National de Liberation] in Paris

and Rome?

Certainly, but I really can’t remember any names. Did I meet them! I

pestered them to death since both Franco Solinas and I, before beginning any

film, take seven or eight months to gather information, because we have a

passion for historical truth. The BBC, speaking of my films, said it was a sort

of ‘dictatorship of truth’. One can see what they mean, no? Everything, even

the effects that worked well on film, if they moved away from this scent of

truth, were immediately discarded, first in the script-writing and then during

shooting.

You said that you read Fanon; but did you also read him to gather

information for The Battle of Algiers?

No, I read Fanon because there was an interest, as I said before, an enviable

interest �/ compared to the lack of interest and misinformation nowadays �/

interest and curiosity in political facts in general, and thus clearly for Fanon.

Moreover, Fanon was very famous in those years?

Many of us had read him, both within and outside the university it was a

very highly regarded book.1

1 PresumablyPontecorvo is

referring to TheWretched of theEarth , the book byFanon which was

best known at the

time. For allreferences, see the

reference list

following the

preceding article‘Anti-colonial

violence. . .’

INTERVIEW WITH PONTECORVO 109........................Neelam Srivastava

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Do you think you unconsciously used his writing, somehow, in making The

Battle of Algiers?

Certainly, when you read something like that, full of interpretations that are

so clearly interesting, accurate, to the point, and deep, of course you are not

really copying from it, but it’s useful to know this approach.

For example, there’s that essay by Fanon, ‘Algeria unveiled’, where he talks

about the function of the veil in a very similar way to how it is treated in the

film.2

But I haven’t read ‘Algeria unveiled’.3

It’s interesting, because it talks about the same themes, the veil and the

Algerian woman. When the veil is needed to demonstrate a cultural distance

from the colonizer, it is used as a sign of cultural difference. Then it is

discarded when the women have to blend into the European part of Algiers

to carry [bombs], like in your film.

We understood this not through the book, but by talking with the local

women and men. It was a rather ‘amusing’ sign, quote unquote, of their

position; it was a curious thing.

The fact that they used the veil instrumentally?

Also instrumentally.

So the female ex-combatants told you about it, then?

No, women of every . . .when you prepare a film, at least Franco Solinas and

I, you talk with everyone, both with the enemies, those who have opposite

ideas from yourself, and with the friends, otherwise you don’t get the full

picture. So we spoke to anyone we could. We spent weeks in the casbah, we

even ate there, because in the end the people got to know us and they would

invite us to eat couscous with them. In other words, we became friends. And

they were glad because they saw we were honest, we weren’t French, we

were Italians, who had often supported their struggle and so they welcomed

us with extraordinary generosity.

So there was no link with the essay then . . . this is very interesting, I read this

essay and I immediately thought of the film, because it was really . . . .

But I didn’t read it.

2 Contained in

Studies in a DyingColonialism (Fanon

1965: 35�/67).

3 Pontecorvo’s replycontradicts Said’s

statement that

Pontecorvo’s major

influences for TheBattle of Algiers and

Queimada were

Fanon’s TheWretched of theEarth and Studies ina Dying Colonialism(Said 2002: 285).Said does not explain

how he reached this

conclusion.

interventions �/ 7 :1 110.........................

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Certainly, but it’s interesting anyway [that the the film and the essay share

this common element].

This probably means that the essay, since it was interesting and useful,

reflected reality. We were in direct contact with reality during weeks of

conversations.

Certainly. It’s also true that this essay is often re-published with images from

your film.

I haven’t seen it. I will go and buy it.

It’s in Studies in a Dying Colonialism. A question linked to the previous one

may sound strange: were there pressures from Saadi to make a film which

was ‘even’ more Manichaean?

I don’t consider it Manichaean.

No, sorry I didn’t mean to say that, I was just discussing it with someone, I

myself don’t find it Manichaean. But . . . .

He [Yacef] liked what we had done, because it was done with honesty, with

this obsession for truth that characterizes the work of Franco Solinas and

myself. There was only one thing they insisted on until the very end, until the

evening before the screening at the Venice Film Festival. At a certain point

[in the film], before the explosion of a bomb that had been placed by the

Algerians in a cafe, there is a close-up of a child �/ clearly a future victim �/

eating ice-cream. They begged me to take it out, they pleaded with me, and I

said, ‘I’m not taking it out, because it will give the impression of a quest for

truth, and not of Manichaeism.’ The night before the screening they told me,

‘Cut the scene out’, and I said, ‘I’m sorry but I’m not cutting it. You’ll see

that you’ll be satisfied.’ Indeed, since reviews from all over the world said it

was an objective film, I say that thanks are also due to the ice-cream scene.

And also the scene of the child who is saved by the gendarme.

Yes, that as well, they hadn’t discussed that scene, they had accepted it.

Whereas the child with the ice-cream seemed a piece of nastiness against

them, they said; but [I said,] ‘After all, since the film reflects the truth, and

since you are on the right side, it must be in your favour. Not in a flattering

sense, but precisely because it reflects the truth that you were on the right

side.’

INTERVIEW WITH PONTECORVO 111........................Neelam Srivastava

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Of course, to make such a film nowadays . . . . I spoke to several people who

saw this movie again after September 11, and were strongly struck by it .

Why?

Perhaps no one would have the courage to make such a film nowadays .

But why not?

I don’t think [anyone would make a film] that represents terrorist acts in

such a way .

People would stop and think because perhaps, by celebrating terrorist acts,

they would unwittingly do the terrorists’ work for them, in that sense I agree.

But yours isn’t exactly a celebration of terrorism . . . .

After all, people agree when the [Algerians] win.

Of course .

For example, there’s a film I never made, for this reason. But it would take

too long to tell. In a film I made afterwards about a terrorist act, Operation

Ogro ,4 you can feel my fear of making something that would do the

terrorists’ work for them, and this weighs down the film. Ogro recounts an

attack against the [Spanish] Prime Minister, who was nicknamed ‘Ogro’,

during the Franchist regime. So it was a completely different situation in

terms of moral judgement. While making it, I was very careful to be

balanced, so as not to endorse . . . .

But you didn’t have this worry with The Battle of Algiers? Perhaps it was a

different era?

Not only was it a different era, we wanted to endorse terrorism.

Was there a previous model [for The Battle of Algiers]? Did it belong more

to the World War II resistance genre or to the anti-colonial genre? Your

earlier film was Kapo. This is linked to the question about the relationship

between your experience as a partigiano [resistance fighter] during the

Second World War and The Battle of Algiers.

These are two separate questions. The model came directly from the inquiry

we had conducted [talking to people] in the casbah for weeks and weeks and,

4 1979.

interventions �/ 7 :1 112.........................

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I repeat, from the commanders of the paras. So it came out of our quasi-

knowledge of this reality through words and infinite sessions of information-

gathering. I don’t remember if there were any other films at the time, and

anyway I didn’t see them. [The film] was so strongly dictated by that reality

full of stimuli, that to go and look for a previous model . . . . I don’t know if

there was one, but perhaps we didn’t care to look for one. Documenting that

reality, visiting those localities, those places was so much stronger; in the

casbah they would show us around, ‘Here is where they hid, here they came

down this stair.’ [A previous model] would have been really superfluous.

This happened shortly after 1962, when you went to Algiers?

I don’t remember the date.

Because anyway the memory was very fresh?

You need much more than memory to make a film. I repeat, you need to go

and smell things, the stairs, etc. ‘Here we escaped, here we came out.’ It’s one

thing to know a struggle by reading the newspaper, it’s another thing to go

and speak with the protagonists.

And what about the decision to make the film in two languages, in Arabic

and French [the version released in the UK]?

We shot the film with the bad habit of Italian cinema, not caring what

language it was in, thinking it would be dubbed afterwards anyway. The

Italians spoke Italian, the extras spoke French, and then during the

dubbing . . . . The Italians are the heirs of this lie and this skill: since they

are also past masters at dubbing, everything is dubbed.

The film I saw in England is in French and Arabic, with English subtitles.

Perhaps because �/ I don’t remember now, it’s almost forty years ago �/

perhaps the English told us that they would rather have subtitles and the

original language and we made it for them. It was easy to do because in the

live filming we had both Arabic, French and Italian, so with some

manoeuvring it wasn’t too hard to reach this solution.

So making it in two languages wasn’t deliberate?

No, they asked us and it was their idea; and we liked it, so much so that we

accepted, otherwise we would have said no.

INTERVIEW WITH PONTECORVO 113........................Neelam Srivastava

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Surely it increased the realism effect?

Yes, we accepted because we liked it.

Is there a parallel between a resistance film such as Kapo and The Battle of

Algiers? There were no previous models of anti-colonial film, but perhaps

there was a series of films in that time on the resistance during the Second

World War? Could this have influenced you?

In what way? In how I shot it?

Not so much that, more the idea of representing a popular resistance, a

struggle for liberation.

Look, the idea is so attractive in itself that I frankly don’t see why I

should resort [to previous models]. For example, Kapo is a film that I

made, and it interested me because �/ though this may sound pompous �/

mankind interests me, the difficulty of the human condition, the affection

for mankind as a function of the hard human condition. This is why I like

to narrate man’s struggle to escape from the difficulties in which he is

often forced to live. In this context, it’s clear that Kapo , the universe

of the concentration camp, is something one wants to narrate, one feels

that it is right and necessary to narrate this. But it was the same for

colonialism; it is right to tell a story against it, with the idea that it is part

of man’s painful struggle to escape certain hard situations of the human

condition.

And this was basically what generated your interest in the anti-colonial

struggles?

Not only that, also because both the anti-colonial struggles and any struggle

to reduce the power of groups of men over other groups of men, is part of the

reason why I fought the war of resistance as a young man.

So you could say that this is the relationship between your experience as a

partigiano [partisan, resistance fighter] and [the inspiration behind The

Battle of Algiers]?

Not only that, there is also a practical relationship: the methods of

concealment of an underground movement in Rome, as in Paris, as in

Algiers, are very similar, so I remembered many things that we ourselves had

done when we were an armed underground movement.

interventions �/ 7 :1 114.........................

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Did you use part of those experiences, of those . . . tactical memories?

That’s what I’m telling you, yes, some of it ended up in the film, but sort of

automatically.

Were you ever personally involved in any anti-colonial struggle?

No. Italy didn’t have this problem; we cheered and we took sides, but we

didn’t participate. Only in the sense that we happened to write articles, or in

interviews we always spoke out violently against colonialism. Both Franco

Solinas and I did this every time we could, but we never took part directly,

this didn’t happen.5

Which anti-colonial struggle did you follow specifically, of course the

Algerian one, but were there others?

The Algerian one, obviously, but we also had news of other struggles, clearly

the French one was the leading one, because we were neighbours, etc.

Let’s talk about Burn [Queimada]. How did the story come about?

In the strange way in which films often come about. The producer Grimaldi

had said, ‘Why don’t we make a film that will appeal to a mass audience? It’s

good for you too, you’ve had enough cultural successes, now you should

make a commercial film.’ I immediately said no, then he said, ‘Why not? Try

at least, perhaps we can reach an understanding.’ First he wanted to do a

story about a mercenary soldier, then I spoke with Franco Solinas and I said,

‘Why should we do something we don’t like? Let’s make an adventure story,

like he wants it, let’s get a great star, let’s make it in colour, in the style of the

nineteenth-century novel and so on, but let’s add our own ideas’, which were

always anti-colonial.

I know the producers didn’t want the colonizers in the film to be Spanish.

Yes, because the Spanish nationalists didn’t want the film to give a negative

image of Spain. So we changed the title from Quemada to Queimada .6

And was there a similar reaction in France when The Battle of Algiers was

released?

No, the boycotting lasted only three months, partly because the OAS said

they would put bombs in the cinemas.7

5 Said, however,says that Pontecorvo

worked for the FLN

during the late 1950s

(Said 2002: 286).

6 Pontecorvo made

the colonizers in the

film Portuguese, so

the title was changedfrom the Spanish

word for ‘burnt’

(quemada ) to the

Portugueseequivalent

(queimada ).

7 The OAS,Organisation ArmeeSecrete , was a French

right-wing terroristgroup that acted in

the name of ‘French

Algeria’, carrying out

bomb attacks in bothAlgeria and France.

They were also

behind the military

coup against Generalde Gaulle in 1962

(Macey 2000: 457).

INTERVIEW WITH PONTECORVO 115........................Neelam Srivastava

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We were interested in knowing about the anti-imperialist and anti-colonial

circles in Rome, the people who publicly sided with the Algerian struggle.

Unfortunately, I don’t remember, but everyone took sides; we can only

dream about such a thing nowadays. Almost every man of culture took sides.

I remember these things with regret, because nowadays people don’t care

about anything; perhaps I exaggerate, but now people are infinitely more

lukewarm.

Which political movements in particular were closest to the Algerian

struggle?

Clearly the Italian Communist Party, then also the socialists, there were also

some liberals, but only the fringes, and some other parties. But the hard core

was the Communist Party, and part of the socialists.

Because there was a delegation of the FLN in Rome, I think they had some

contacts with the Communist Party.

Yes, but that is not what determines one’s orientation, and naturally there

were contacts between them I cannot possibly remember.

Did you meet these delegates of the FLN in Rome?

No, I met them in Algiers and in Paris; in Rome, perhaps one or two of them,

but I no longer remember who they were.

Giovanni Pirelli wrote a lot about Algeria.8

Giovanni Pirelli was very left-wing, and Feltrinelli too. They were all friends

of mine, at the time we were all connected by the glue of political

engagement.

And in particular the support for the Algerian cause?

Absolutely.

Did you use Pirelli’s book in your information-gathering? He compiled an

anthology of writings, namely he collected the eye-witness account . . . .

No, I didn’t know that. But I repeat for the thousandth time that, compared

to six months of information-gathering on site and in Paris, we didn’t care

what Giovanni had written about these things. One gets the information

8 Giovanni Pirelli is

the co-editor of abook that collected

letters and

testimonies ofAlgerians involved in

the war of liberation

against the French.

He also translatedmuch of Fanon’s

work into Italian.

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directly, and it’s much more substantial than the interpretations given by

someone else.

Did you meet Fanon? He was also in Rome.

No, but I greatly admired his books. I didn’t read ‘Algeria Unveiled’,

however.

Interview prepared by Robert Young and Neelam Srivastava (Newcastle

University, UK). Interview conducted and translated by Neelam Srivastava.

INTERVIEW WITH PONTECORVO 117........................Neelam Srivastava

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