8/13/2019 Peter Mulvany Interview Transcript

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What was the Irish Soldiers Pardon Campaign?The Irish Soldiers Pardons Campaign (WW2) was a campaign effort put together toobtain some form of redress for servicemen who allegedly deserted the Irish Defenceforces during world war two to fight against the Nazis and Japanese, and whom in

August 1945 were dismissed en masse and in absentia by the Irish government pursuant to Emergency Powers Order (No 362) 1945, which included dismissingthose who had already been killed in action.

What was your involvement in the 2013 Irish Soldiers Pardon Campaign?I initiated the campaign in May 2011 and managed the campaign effort as a team

project from the outset until its conclusion in June 2013.

Why did you participate 2013 Irish Soldiers Pardon Campaign?It was the right thing to do. The cordial response from the Irish public to the Queensvisit to Ireland in May 2011, suggested that there would be a chance of success toseek redress from the Irish government for these blacklisted soldiers and theirfamilies. There was a legacy of hurt within family history which was still extant andneeded to be resolved. One had previous experience organising a campaign for

pardons for executed Irish born British world war one soldiers and was confident thatthe current Irish Government (Fine Gael/Labour coalition) would be open to resolvinghistorical and sensitive issues within the context of the ongoing peace process.

How did you participate?Made the submission, funded the project throughout, designed the website, theleaflets, constructed the legal arguments and organised the petition online and on thestreets outside the general post office in Dublin etc. Managing the campaign from theoutset in May 2011, until its successful conclusion in June 2013.

Did you meet any resistance in the campaign?Yes. Initially there were vociferous objections through the letters page of the pressand argument was proffered that the defence of the state and loyalty to their oath was

paramount. Some of these contributors who objected to any resolution to the pardonsissue lacked any understanding of Irish military law. Irrespective of various moralforce arguments being promulgated as to whether individuals joined UK forces or notIrish defence force personnel alleged to be deserters post war were subject to Irishmilitary law and as such a court-martial had jurisdiction in which to try and punish

any person for an offence against military law, committed by such person whilesubject to military law, and was the appropriate legal forum to adjudicate in each case.Dail Eireann/Irish Parliament cannot stand as judge, jury and executioner, is not amilitary court of law and no amount of side stepping or obfuscation of the Englishlanguage on the part of these objectors could have changed that fact. The enactmentof an Emergency Powers Order on the 8 August 1945 by the de Valera government todeal with the military offence of desertion was a cynical political exercise whichdeprived a military court of its jurisdiction, demonstrating an utter contempt for anyrights that defence force personnel may have had pursuant to the Irish constitution.The issue has always been about political interference in dealing with the militaryoffence of desertion which inevitably led to an injustice because the due process

inherent in a court-martial and which is a distinct feature and judicial attribute of anIrish military court of law was not observed by the de Valera government post war.

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There were on street threats during the petition signing but they were only made by ahandful of individuals. The majority of people were in support.

What was the outcome?The introduction of the Irish Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and

Immunity) Act (No 12) 2013 initiated by Minister for Defence Mr Allan Shatter TDon behalf of the Irish Government is an unprecedented and historically significantlegislative act which exonerates members of the Irish defence forces who wentAWOL (absent without leave) and joined UK or allied forces during world war two,and vindicates the campaign strategy.

What were the attitudes towards the soldiers during World War II?There was a general anti-British view in Ireland and those that joined UK forceswould have been viewed by many as traitors.

What were the attitudes towards the soldiers after World War II?They would have been regarded as traitors. Survivors and their families post warwould have kept a low profile and got on as best they could. Many had to emigrate

back to the UK and other parts of the commonwealth as they could not get a job in post war Ireland because of the barring order.

Have the attitudes of Irish citizens changed since the campaign?Yes. The campaign prompted a debate which contributed to a better understanding ofthe history of these men and their families and the conditions they had to undergo in

post war Ireland.

In your opinion, were the soldiers justified in joining the British Army?The legal issues as to the rights or responsibilities of defence force personnel whowent absent without leave to join allied forces in the fight against the axis powersshould have been adjudicated by the military courts and not by politicians. Howeverdesertion in any army is a serious offence and such offences are determined by themilitary courts/tribunals. During world war two, the threats to international peace

presented by the Nazis and Japanese would suggest that a greater good was served bymen joining UK or allied forces in the fight against fascism. Although these men wentabsent without leave to join in the fight they did not go absent to run away.

In your opinion, was Ireland justified in its desire to remain neutral?

Yes, absolutely. De Valera had no choice. However Irish neutrality was benevolent insupport of the allied war effort.

In your opinion, was the government justified in its treatment of these soldiers? No it was not justified. There were other constitutional ways to deal with the issue.Irrespective of the emergency legislation that was introduced in 1939, those accusedof desertion had a right in law to adduce evidence in their defence. The EmergencyPowers Order introduced by the Irish Government in 1945 to dismiss and punish

personnel was not an adjudication by military tribunal. In fact the post war IrishGovernment had for the sake of political expediency subverted the function of themilitary courts to deal with allegations of desertion which denied servicemen their

constitutional right to due process in a military court.

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Is there anything else you feel is important for us to know about this topic?Please Note: In 1977 President Jimmy Carter, issued a broad amnesty to draft evadersand argued that their crimes were forgotten, not forgiven. This qualification madeclear that the purpose of his amnesty was not to erase a criminal act, nor to condone orforgive it, but simply to facilitate political reconciliation. In contrast, the Irish

Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Act (No 12) 2013initiated by Minister for Defence Mr Allan Shatter TD on behalf of the IrishGovernment, is an unprecedented and historically significant legislative act whichexonerates members of the Irish defence forces who went AWOL (absent withoutleave) and joined UK or allied forces during world war two, and at the same time

provides immunity from prosecution for others. By excluding compensation the Actalso alleviates any financial burden that might have been levied upon the state, andaccompanied by an apology, comprehensively and unambiguously obliterates theimputation of guilt imposed by the introduction of Emergency Powers Order 362 onthe 8th of August 1945. The Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty andImmunity) Act (No 12) 2013 is an Amnesty and not a Pardon. A Pardon is theforgiveness of an offence, whereas the construct and effect of this amnesty andimmunity legislation is to exculpate all concerned from allegations of desertionthereby removing the stigma of dishonour associated with being blacklisted. TheMinister for Defence, Mr Allan Shatter TD, supported by his staff and members ofDail and Seanad Eireann, are to be congratulated for having the political courage andintegrity in bringing the Amnesty and Immunity Act to a successful conclusion and isan occasion of historical significance. In the full knowledge that they have now beenformally recognised and honoured as part of the collective remembrance of the islandof Ireland the last of our old soldiers and their families can live out the rest of theirlives with some semblance of honour restored.

Peter Mulvany B.C.L., HDip Arts AdminCoordinatorIrish Soldiers Pardons Campaign (WW2)http://www.forthesakeofexample.com