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Golfer’s World Summit Interview with Paul Wilson Paul Hobart: Hi, everyone. This is Paul Hobart, PGA professional and your host for the

Golfer’s World Summit, which can be found at www.golfworldsummit.com. The purpose of our Golfer’s World Summit is to bring you cutting edge information that will dramatically change your physical, mental, and emotional game hopefully on the golf course as well as off the golf course. So grab a pen and a piece of paper we’re gonna have a great interview tonight and I know you’re gonna have some great info that you may want to jot down and we’re hoping to really impact your golf game and again hopefully impact your life a little bit. I’m very excited to have as my guest tonight Paul Wilson, who is the founder of Swing Machine Golf. He is also the director of instruction at the Broadmoor Swing Machine Golf Academy out in Colorado, and really got some great concepts and some simple concepts I think that’s gonna really help everybody maybe to get a little bit better handle on how we can more consistently swing the golf club and get some great results. With that I’d like to say hello to Paul. Paul how are you?

Paul W: Great, how are you Paul? Paul H: Doing wonderful, doing wonderful. Could you if you would maybe go into a little

bit more depth about what swing machine golf is and a little bit about how you researched that and came up with the idea and so forth.

Paul W: Well Swing Machine Golf teaches people based on the Iron Byron swing

machine. The Iron Byron was created back in 1963 by True Temper the shaft company and at that time they wanted a machine that could replicate the human golf swing and of course hit the ball perfectly so they could test their shaft. So it took them 3 years to get this machine together and how they did it they looked at all the different top pros and amateurs of that day and they did high speed photos of all their swings and took all their stats and everything and they chose Byron Nelson as the model because he has the most efficient golf swing and efficient meaning the least amount of energy for the maximum distance hit. And by all accounts his numbers didn’t vary from 8 o’clock in the morning until 5 o’clock in the afternoon. He was the only guy that could replicate his swing over and over and over again all day long.

Paul H: Sure, certainly produce some good tournament results with that too. Paul W: Yeah, it seemed to work pretty well. So what better model for the swing or for

the Iron Byron machine. So like I said they took high speed photos of his swing and they made the Iron Byron copy his down swing so the Iron Byron it doesn’t really do a back swing it stops at the top they’ve got a ball in front of it then they hit a button and of course it swings down through. So and it does that within .1 degree accuracy. So very, very consistent. It’s the first machine ever designed like that you know there’s been a few imitations out there since and actually there’s quite a few manufactures that still use the actual Iron Byron. I was at Titleist the TTI center in the spring and they had one hitting balls there. Wilson’s got a couple of them and Golf Smith and others. It’s been around a long time but it works so well that the club manufactures still use it to this day.

Paul H: Yeah, I had an opportunity to watch that at the Ping factory the ping facility.


Paul W: Oh did ya. Yeah that’s a little different one. Paul H: Sure, but it’s almost shocking how impressive that is to watch that machine hit

golf balls over and over again. So I think if we can all move our golf game in that direction that would probably be very interesting to our listeners.

Paul W: We can, we just have to know how to do it. Paul H: Tell us how to do that Paul. Paul W: It's why everybody’s listening. Ok so basically what happened was over 10 years

ago well sorry let me back up even further when I was a kid I had heard about Iron Byron I never actually saw it. I never really gave it much though just totally dismissed it never though about it again. Well over 10 years ago I saw Iron Byron hit a ball and this time when I saw it hit a ball I didn’t really see the nuts and bolts to it like it didn’t look like a robot to me anymore it looked like a golfer so I had this visualization of a human golf swing as it was hitting this ball. I was just watching so video of it. So I got out all my golf magazines and you know how they do the split screen I'm sorry the frame by frame sequences of all the different pros you know pretty much every issue there’s a different pro in there. Taking them all out opened them all up so I had all these magazines sitting there and I’m watching Iron Byron and I’m freezing it and every pro I put beside that machine was identical to it you know the various stages through their swing. So that kinda got me thinking because at the time I was really trying to figure out my golf swing and I was right into building a perfect golf swing so you know what better model right

Paul H: Yeah, exactly. Paul W: After seeing that all these pros were looking like this machine I started thinking

maybe this machine I thought holy cow well maybe this machine holds the answer that I’m looking for so I started to just dissect the machine. Well it didn’t take me long to figure it out after you just kinda see it a little differently. Like most people look at it and go well it’s only got one arm. Well the arm on the machine represents the golfers left arm in the back swing I’m sorry from the top of the back swing down through impact.

Paul H: For a right handed golfer, right? Paul W: For a right handed golfer. Yeah. And then after the ball had been hit the arm

obviously is extended on the through swing so that represents the golfers right arm. So with the arms extended on one side and extended on the other side that maintains the diameter of circle and in your golf swing you want to have your left arm extended down and through impact and after the ball has been hit your right arm would be extended. So that allows a two-armed golfer to copy a one-armed machine. So like I said you just gotta see it if you look at it in split screen so you can see it perfectly. So it does match up with the human golfer. So your average guy is sitting there trying to hit the ball as hard as they can and what happens is in the process they end up tightening their arms up and they end up doing the chicken wing through impact that’s when both arms are buckling and obviously they are not copying the machine at that point their arc is getting narrower. Where the arc on Iron Byron would be the exact same every time. So that’s the


arm on the machine and then in looking at it further one of the questions I get is well it doesn’t have any shoulders. Well underneath the arm is the drive shaft so it’s only about I’m gonna say about a foot long it’s a round cylinder a little post on your watch. So that drive shaft turns in a circular motion and that drive shaft represents the golfers body from the waist up. So what I was looking at in the machine turns in a circle so the human golfer the body of the golfer has to turn in a circle as well. If you do a reverse weight shift or a reverse pivot you’re moving in a sideways motion like a seesaw kind of versus circular. So that would be another thing you would want to do in your swing. You have to turn in a circular motion. So that turning motion obviously moves the arm that’s connected to it. Now there’s 2 more parts to it ill back up on the next one before I get to the final one. But at the end of the arm, I kinda forgot to talk about this, there’s a hinge so that hinge represents a golfer’s wrists. So the club hinges in the back swing and then it re-hinges in the through swing. So, in order for something to hinge and re-hinge it must be loose so again when you’re trying to hit the golf ball as hard as you can you’re in turn locking you’re wrist which doesn’t allow you to copy the Iron Byron.

Paul H: Sure, you could imagine what would happen if you tighten down the hinge on the

Iron Byron during the back and through the down swing how that would not work at all.

Paul W: Absolutely, absolutely. So that’s one of the main things that I try to get people to

do is to really loosen you know up their arms and wrists. So you’re making their arms powerless and their wrists unrestricted. So that kinda bring us to the last thing about this machine is it’s got a couple of red legs on it. So everybody looks at the legs and goes well the legs don’t move on the machine so how do can I copy it. Well the legs on the machine don’t represent the golfers legs there’s a motor that is above the legs and that represents the golfers legs. So the motor turns the drive shaft, which then moves the arm down to hit the ball because there’s a hinge at the end of the ball, it creates a whipping action that propels the ball forward obviously. The faster they turn up the motor the faster the drive shaft moves the faster the arm comes down the farther the ball is hit. So the arm never moves independently it moves because the motor tells the drive shaft to move it. So again when your average guy is up there at the top of the back swing and they’re sitting there going I’m going to hit the ball as hard as I can they’re in turn if you were thinking of relating it back to the Iron Byron that would be like the Iron Byron’s arm moving without the motor and the drive shaft and that would never produce a perfect shot time and time again. Like the ball would literally go anywhere and it wouldn’t have the distance or the efficiency that the Iron Byron has. So that’s kinda the way I kinda thought and I started to incorporate it into my own golf swing and then of course I started teaching other people and I get pretty amazing results very, very quickly. But I only center on three things so there’s circular rotation of your body you have an unrestricted hinge and sorry there’s one more part to it the whole machine is tilted to get the club down to the ground and I call that the constant forward tilt you may know it as your spine angle. Really those three things are what I center about.

Paul H: I think that’s very interesting to that you’re able to do some experimentation with

the concepts with your own golf game because then I think that definitely gives you some more credibility and people who have seen your book or your DVDs have seen your swing and they’re side by side with the machine so it’s obvious


that you have a lot of experience with that and it’s good to see that you’ve utilized that rather than just grabbing a concept and trying to put it on people.

Paul W: That’s right and when we first shot the DVDs I actually shot my golf swing and

the Iron Byron in two separate locations I hadn’t actually hit a ball ever beside it so I didn’t even know if it would match up. So kinda good that it did. And it’s perfect.

Paul H: And I’m sure you can tell the listeners it was on the first take.

Paul W: Uh, yeah. Paul H: That’s fantastic. Lets I would say if the average person if they were going to

begin to venture into trying to make more of a swing machine type of swing what would be some of things that they might need to go look at as far as perhaps their grip or their setup or some starting points that they could move in direction of making the swing.

Paul W: Well, like I was saying I really want people do those 3 things. Now there’s a little more to it, the grip thinking back to the machine the grip on the Iron Byron yes it’s a mechanical device but if you look at it a little differently you kind of understand it. When they go to put the golf club into the sleeve that’s at the end of the arm it’s in a neutral position. It’s not towed in it’s not open you know it’s very neutral. So that’s what I’m trying to create with someone’s grip. So I would start there. And then most people’s grips obviously are not in a very good position there in a position where it’s very strong in their right hand and that gives them the feeling of power in their hands. Well the machine that’s just the hinge that’s holding onto the golf club. If you’re strong in your right hand you can potentially tighten your wrist so therefore you wouldn’t be copying the Iron Byron. The Iron Byron is very unrestricted and obviously it squares the face time and time again. So definitely a neutral grip is where I would start and then of course I would go into creating the proper setup position. Which is just very athletic really there if you’re comparing your body to the Iron Byron again if you think back to the machine it’s got a motor and your legs would be that motor. So when you know for those people that have taking golf lessons before you were told to stick your rear-end out and then flex your knees a little bit. Well that is basically turning your motor. That’s why you’re in that position. With the flexed legs their kinda activated in your swing. They’re ready to go and that’s what’s gonna power your golf swing. So if you just stand there you know straight up and down and kinda bend over at the waist you’re legs aren’t turned on so that would be like the motor of the machine not turned on.

Paul H: Sure, so at that point setting the stage to make more of an upper body dominated type of swing.

Paul W: Absolutely, yeah so the rear-end out with a little bit of flex in your knees and it’s not a ton just enough flex until you feel your leg muscles are ready to go. Now your legs are turned on now you can use them in your swing.

Paul H: Excellent. Would you say when you’re discussing your grip would you say the grip that you work with people on is maybe a little bit more neutral than what some people would typically use.


Paul W: Uh, you know I’m just really trying to balance the hands out. So I’m putting your left hand in a two-knuckle position, which puts it across the palm of your left hand, so I want it stable in that hand. Because Remember the Iron Byron doesn’t have a right arm until after the ball’s been hit. So I’m really trying to make your right arm invisible by putting it in a very well it’s a neutral position but it’s more in the fingers of the stronger hand. So if you’ve got something in the palm of your weaker hand and the fingers of your stronger hand that’s gonna kinda balance them out so one hand isn’t dominating throughout your swing. You know most people hold it down toward the palm of their right hand. Now you’ve got your strong hand in a strong position. It gives you a great feeling of power but you’re gonna hit the ball nowhere because you’re gonna lock your wrists. The tighter the wrists the slower the golf club’s gonna move.

Paul H: Sure. What’s and I think with in the day to day advise that I give is I think one of the great challenges of any instructor is to get somebody to make a grip change because were so comfortable holding onto it the way we hold on to it. Do you have any tricks or ideas for people if they feel they need to make a grip change? How do you kinda get yourself through that feeling of being uncomfortable and feeling like it’s not in the right spot.

Paul W: Well first off you know it’s about understanding why you have to change the grip. If I can explain it to them and relate it back to why Iron Byron would have it a neutral position. I think understanding is 50 percent of getting it. You’ve gotta understand why you’re doing it. If someone just says ok do this grip your gonna think it’s really uncomfortable and in 2 seconds later you’re not gonna do it anymore. So that’s the first thing you’re gonna do is understand why you’re doing it. You’re trying to put your hands in a neutral position so the ball doesn’t spin excessively left or right. Ok so now if you had a checklist of all the things in your golf swing and the grip was one of them and you had your hands in a neutral position you could kind of cross that off the list if you were spinning the ball too much one way or the other. Well your grip is in the neutral position so it’s probably not a grip problem. So like I said understanding it that’s pretty huge. The next thing is just repeating it in consecutive repetitions and this is where a lot of people go wrong. I was kinda told it’s a pretty common thing a change takes whatever 21 days 60 repetitions a day. I have proven time and time and time again that you can get it way, way, way faster than that. What you have to do is you have to do something in consecutive repetitions. So usually 11 is about my number. That if I get somebody that moves 11 times exactly the same way they start to kinda get over that hump where it doesn’t feel so bad anymore. But if you think of each ball that you hit when you’re kinda working on it 30 seconds 45 seconds that’s gonna be almost 10 minutes worth of time. Now if you get somebody’s concentration and get them to do it for 10 minutes it's like pulling teeth.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: It’s like they try it twice and they’re back to their old thing again. It’s like well I thought you wanted to get better.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: So, you know if you can kinda suffer through 10 15 minutes of pain you know you’ve got a grip that’s starting to feel half decent.


Paul H: Right.

Paul W: And then you’ve got it.

Paul H: Absolutely. Paul W: You know so really consecutive repetition is kind of a big thing.

Paul H: Sure, I know I tried to explain to people. Because we all want the quick fix we

want something that on the next swing is gonna turn us into a fantastic golfer.

Paul W: Yeah.

Paul H: But I think those of us who’ve had the opportunity to watch some high caliber players or some tour players the thing you take from that is they will do the same small thing over and over again for hours if they need to until they sure that they have it. I think the average golfer who’s less skilled and probably less aware of their swing wants to try to fix it with less work than that.

Paul W: That’s right!

Paul H: It’s completely backwards. You would think that the less skilled and less aware person would probably need to put a little more time into it at least focus time but I think some of it to is just deciding how important it is to make a change.

Paul W: That’s right. That’s right. If you could get it in a few swings and become a great golfer like you’d be a pro. It’s like how did a pro become a pro? They became a pro because they worked on it. And they did it over and over and over again until they mastered it. It’s like anything playing the guitar playing the piano. Like, people have no problem sitting there and doing that for 2 3 hours. You get a golf club in their hands and they want it in 2 seconds. It’s like it’s not gonna happen.

Paul H: Sure. You know I was reading through some of your materials on one of your sites and I know you’ve made the mention people spend years and learning how to play a musical instrument but then they want they golf mechanics to be corrected in a manner of minutes.

Paul W: Exactly. Exactly. It’s like yeah you know you might hit one shot that goes great but it’s about replicating it. You know it’s like I get people asking me ok how do I get a consistent swing. It’s like well that’s pretty easy you just gotta do the same swing every time.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: It’s like they’re doing a different move every single time so of course you’re gonna get a different result.

Paul H: Sure. Well I think that’s one of the attractive features of your materials is you’ve kinda gotten it down and said look these are the 3 components that you need to really focus on and I think the challenge for a lot of people is to get a good system and I know you’ve mentioned this on your site also. Find a system or find


an instructor and stick with that don’t try to you know mix and match and grab the most recent thing that you’ve read or heard or you know saw from your buddy and try to put that into your swing.

Paul W: Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s just becoming totally dedicated with one way to do it. You know whatever makes sense to you, you gotta kinda latch on to that and don’t deviate from it. Because if you start getting too many thoughts like you know whatever somebody else says might conflict with what the person was trying to get you to do. And that’s where golf instruction is a little tricky because we as instructors have a game plan. So you know I may know that the guy may not get it right then but I’m thinking to myself I’m already like 3 steps ahead of the guy. So it’s like ok well you start doing that now you’re gonna kinda blow my game plan here that I had for you.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: So he comes back for another lesson and it’s not even close to what we were working on. It’s like what did you do?

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: Well you know I tried Charlie told me to do this. It’s like Oh boy now we’re back to square one again.

Paul H: You know that sounds very familiar Paul.

Paul W: It’s just unbelievable. But it gets back to that everybody wants it immediately. You know I do get lucky every now and again. I can get somebody hitting it unbelievable and they really pick up my stuff super fast. But you know the average persons gonna take a little time to get it. And I’m not gonna give them the whole thing in the first day. It’s information overload.

Paul H: Sure. And I think that would be some good advice probably for some of the listeners too. If you decided to spend a season or a couple months or what have you really working on your swing with a coach or a professional to maybe ask them say hey could you outline for me sort of the steps you see me taking here so then maybe they could buy into the process a little better. That’s right. That’s right. I think one of the things you know we haven’t talked about yet is just how to practice and what I’m kinda big on is you know really not hitting all that many golf balls. It’s like I want you doing tons of practice swings hitting very precise positions. And I've proven this many times too. You know my dad I was working with him in his warehouse and you know over lunch wed do practice swing and my dad would be Arnold palmer golf swing huge slice and just awful. He got it to a 14 handicap so he asked me if id help him one year. So we were working on it in his warehouse you know 3 4 times a week over lunch hour. He went from a 14 to a 7 by mid summer and then by September he shot 72 and won the senior event at our golf course.

Paul H: Wow. And it was really taking the golf balls out of the equation because he’d just rifle one after another


Paul H: Sure.

Just another quick story I took another guy from 95 to 75 in 2 months he never hit one ball. Just practice swings in his back yard. And I know he wasn’t lying because he said his mother was mad at him for ripping up the back yard. But it’s all about you know making the move. I made that guy look like he could shoot 65. So I know he’d shoot 75.

Paul H: Sure. You know because to shoot 65 you’d have to be out there 10 hours a day. It’s just about making that change or the necessary changes. And without the ball there you’re not thinking about the ball. So you take out the ball do the positions transform your swing very, very quickly and then add the ball back in. You know it’s like it just makes so much sense to me but you know to other people they maybe don’t see it that way they’re just so excited to hit golf balls.

Paul H: Sure. Yeah I heard an interesting story actually from a guy that’s in he works on a certain aspect of Vijay Singh’s golf game. He was telling me said you know you hear these stories he’s out there on the range all day long and he’s hitting and he’s hitting balls and he said probably half the time that he’s out there he’s making practice swings or practice back swings or he’s doing a drill more than half the time. So he’s not just standing there mindlessly hitting golf balls trying to sell himself that quantity’s gonna win out over quality. Absolutely.

Paul H: I don’t think a lot of people understand that. Those guys will rehearse and rehearse and rehearse the movement because that’s more important than any single golf shot that they are gonna hit on the golf range. Exactly. But see the problem is through time everybody’s been told or they know of someone that has this amazing practice swing but then you put the ball in front of them and it’s just a disaster.

Paul H: Sure. It’s like ok well that person you know as soon as you put the ball in front of them they’re trying to hit the ball. No ball they’re trying to move their body. And plus their practice swing probably isn’t as good as they think it is. Basically what I do I give people very precise positions that I cant do any better than you it’s kinda hard to explain but just as an example if your wrists were loose in your swing and you went to follow through at the very end of your swing your club shaft would end up being parallel to your ears when you’re done touching I get people to physically touch the back of their head with the club shaft parallel to your ears. Parallel to your ears is 90 degrees to your body.

Paul H: Right. So you’ve got in a golf swing you’ve got mass rotating around an axis. So if you

have mass going around an axis it will always rotate at 90 degrees if it was to move it’s fastest. So I want that golf club to finish parallel to the person’s ears.


Well parallel on me and parallel on whoever is exactly the same position. I can’t get it more parallel than parallel.

Paul H: Right. So I know the person can do the position without me standing there and that’s

the whole goal. You know I’m trying to give them positions they can do. And you know I know people are listening going I didn’t realize the club was parallel to the ears but if you take a look at any pro and freeze it on the right frame I guarantee you that golf club will be parallel to their ears.

Paul H: Sure. So you know check that one out when you’re taking a look at some golfers. Paul H: Absolutely. And just work on that one. If your wrists are tight it can’t be parallel. It will never

be parallel. Paul H: Sure. Could you get into because I think that kinda moves us on to maybe the

topic of talking a little bit more in depth just about the posture and maintaining the tilt all the way through.

Ok. The tilt it’s a pretty easy one. If somebody’s not you know topping the golf

ball I usually leave that out I don’t even go into it only because if I can get the components working like circular rotation and the hinges the golf swing starts transforming and taking on the appearance of a better player. So you know if it starts looking that good they usually maintain the angle. So for people that are more in the beginner for the category you know really trying if you come out of your spine angle you know it’s usually gonna be lifting up so you’re gonna end up popping the ball. It’s really common because you’re trying to hit the ball too hard. The harder you try to hit something the more you’re gonna want to see the results. And that’s just human nature. You know so if I turn your arms off you’re not in a state where you’re trying to hit anything so if you’re not trying to hit anything you’re less likely to look.

Paul H: Right. Right. But I’ve got another one for you. This is a good one that everybody can try to

see if they actually do it or not. Most average players are actually practicing looking up. What I mean by that is watch an average player or a beginning golfer when they go to address the ball. They’ve addressed the ball and now they look at their target, so every time they look at their target their eyes are level to the ground. So they’ve kinda just lifted their head up and they’ve taken a look at where there gonna hit the ball.

Paul H: Ok. Now in the same breath you take a look at a tour player. They’re already tilted

on an angle when they look at the target every single one of them looks by swiveling their head and their looking at it through tilted eyes. Not one of them is looking at their target with their eyes level to the ground. So now think of it this


way, if you were walking around in everyday life you would want to walk around with your eyes level to the ground. So you’re in a vertical position. So if you’re hitting the golf ball you’re gonna want to look at it because you just predetermined how you’re gonna watch your ball, through level eyes. So of course you’re gonna try to hit the ball and watch your ball through level eyes.

Paul H: Sure So that’s gonna cause you to stand up because you’re trying to see the ball

properly. Paul H: Yeah you’ve almost set the stage to do that. Paul W: Exactly. But the problem is you tilted your whole body towards the ground to get

the club to seat next to the ball. So if you’ve tilted your body in the beginning you have to be tilted throughout your swing. So again if you watch every single tour player I can’t even think of one that finished in this position but every single one of them when that club gets around to the back of their head every single one of them has their eyes on the tilt.

Paul H: Right. Right. Paul W: As opposed to being level to the ground. But then watch your average or

beginner player and every single one of them is level to the ground. Paul H: Right. I think that is an interesting point. A lot of people when they watch Annika

swing they say I don’t know how she hit’s the ball that well because she looks up all the time and it’s you could point out she’s not really looking up she’s just allowing her head to rotate on the same axis that her spine is on.

Paul W: Absolutely. Paul H: So she’s not really looking up per say, as we would define it. Paul W: Exactly. Exactly. And Duval too obviously. Paul H: Sure. Sure. Now would you let me ask you this because I think a lot of people

are probably familiar with the one plane swing and the two plane swing and I would say from my exposure to your system yours probably seems to lean maybe a little bit more towards the one plane swing would you say?

Paul W: It's actually a two-plane swing Paul H: Is it? Ok. Paul W: Because I’ve got the left arm slightly above the shoulder line. Paul H: Ok. Ok. Paul W: Now let me just kind of explain that to people so they understand it. As far as the

one point or two-plane swing goes I don’t really care about that because what I care about is how the club is coming down. I want the club shaft flattening to 90 degrees to the person’s body on the way down.


Paul H: Ok. Paul W: So again if you have mass rotating around an axis. Lets see the easiest example

I can give a weight swinging on a piece of string. If you picked that up and twirled it every time it was going to twirl it would twirl at 90 degrees to your hand because that’s the fastest place it’s got to swing. It’s not gonna swing at 82 degrees and go to 90 100 percent of the time. So if you’re up at the top of your backswing kinda visualize your whole golf club, not just the head of the club, but the whole club as that weight your arms as the piece of string and your body as your hand twirling it. So if you started your body first the club would fall to 90 degrees to your body. So it doesn’t matter if you take a Jim Furyk swing and take it way outside and way upright if you turn your body first the golf club will always fall to 90 degrees 100 percent of the time.

Paul H: Right. Paul W: So it doesn’t matter if you’re taking it back on the same plane as you’re coming

down. Paul H: Gotcha. Paul W: I could take it anywhere and come down. If I rotate my body first the club shaft

will flatten, it has to. If you’re up at the top and you’re trying to hit it with your arms you’re moving the club away from 90 degrees so it’s gonna move slower and it’s gonna be off plane. So like I said I don’t really care so much about single plane or dual plane. I care about how it’s coming down.

Paul H: Gotcha. Paul W: And you know it works. Paul H: Sure. So as long as the sequence is correct on the down swing it’s gonna be

drawn into that more correct position. Paul W: That’s right. Paul H: Ok. Paul W: See the biggest argument in golf and this one is just mind-boggling. Do you hit it

with your hand or do you hit it with your body? Like there’s arms teachers and there’s body teachers.

Paul H: Sure. Paul W: It’s like well first off the machine if you back to the Iron Byron the machine the

motor turns the drive shaft, which moves the arm down. The arm is powerless it’s a piece of metal it’s just sitting there. They attach it to the machine and then it hit’s a golf ball. So it’s really like an accessory. If you took the arm off the arm with the hinge and the club off of the machine the machine would still work. They’ve just attached a device that hit’s a golf ball. If they put the blades of a blender on it, it would blend your drink. So in my thought process it’s definitely your body that hit’s the shot. The arms are a very important aspect of it because


if that hinge or your wrist if they tighten you’re not gonna get the same power. Now another way to sort of prove it is at the top of your back swing from the top of the back swing to the golf ball is about a quarter of a second in time. Now at that moment in time your hips are turned 45 degrees approximately. Now by the time the club hit’s the ball your hips are turned 45 degrees the opposite way. So you’ve got 90 degrees body rotation in a quarter of a second. So that means to me that your body better be starting first because if you just happen to delay that just a split second your arms will already be at the ball.

Paul H: Right. Right. Paul W: So that’s one of the big things. Everybody’s using their arms and it’s not getting

any better so there’s got to be a different way to do it. Obviously a pro is doing something different or better than your average person. Well they’re doing the exact opposite they’re hitting with their body instead of just sitting there trying to hammer it with their arms.

Paul H: Right. And I think this is something I had noted on your website as well and it’s a

statement that I use with people just about every day as I said you have to understand that effort doesn’t equal club head speed or distance.

Paul W: Absolutely. Paul H: Because I think club head speed is what makes the ball go farther and you can

make a swing that’s got a ton of effort to it but it may have a reduced club head speed. And I think a lot people have a hard time feeling that or getting that and feeling like they got everything out of the swing that they could without swinging their hardest.

Paul W: Exactly. It totally goes against human nature. Human nature if you’ve got an

object sitting in front of you you’re gonna try and hit it and in your brain you’re thinking the harder I hit it the farther it’s gonna go, and that’s true. But there’s a better way to do it. Golf is a consistency game. That will never work because you’re manipulating the clubface through impact. Now you want an efficient movement that replicates the same swing every single time. So there’s no way you’re gonna be able to do that by just hitting as hard as you can but like I say that kinda goes against what you’re thinking. So if you when you watch pros and they’re swinging it nice and easy and they’re hitting 300 yards, what appears to be nice and easy anyway, why would you do that because when you try it the ball only goes 50 yards. So you’re not convincing yourself that that work but the thing is I know that everybody has had that one shot in their life that went 30 yards farther than any other ball they’ve hit.

Paul H: Uh huh. Paul W: So I asked them, well what did you feel on that shot? And they go, well I felt

nothing. Well in that one particular shot it could mean your arms, because if you did you would have felt it.

Paul H: Right. Paul W: You get your feel in your hands and arms.


Paul H: Sure. Paul W: But the thing is they can never replicate it, because on the next shot they want

another 30 yards on top of the 30 that they just got.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: How do they do it, they try to hit harder.

Paul H: Exactly. Instead of just turning their body faster.

Paul W: Yeah we make the outside, and I think, I’m not sure a lot of people understand when I tell them, is I say I don’t know that trying to hit a shot a little bit harder is the culprit; it’s the way you go about trying to do that’s more the issue.

Paul H: Absolutely.

Paul W: So I think that if you take a tour player, and you have them hit a 5 Iron shot and you say, well let me see you…either hit the same 5 Iron, but make it go twenty yards farther. To the naked eye the swing would not look that different. It would be almost identical.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: And that’s one of the things that I show people all of the time. I actually hit three different shots. I do a slow one, a medium one and then my hardest, and they look at it and say it’s the same swing. But what your seeing there; it’s visually deceiving, and this is what I think people don’t grasp this concept…In a good player’s golf swing, your body doesn’t even rotate at three miles an hour…so if your arm is connected to your body, and your body’s rotating, I’m gonna say, lets say it’s 3 miles an hour for ease of conversation…But if your body’s rotating at three miles an hour and your arm is only two feet from your body because your arms aren’t very long…how fast are your arms gonna be swinging their not gonna be swinging at 30 miles an hour. They’re gonna be moving at maybe eight miles an hour. I don’t know what the exact number is, but it can’t be much more than three miles an hour cause it’s so close to three miles an hour. So when you see a pro on TV, and their swing looks like absolutely effortless, they’re actually putting a lot of energy into it to spin their body at three miles an hour, and their body is determining how fast their arms are coming down to hit the ball.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: But then you get an average player right beside, and their swing looks real fast. Well that’s because their arms are moving independent from their body… their bodies not telling their arms how fast to swing. That’s why their swing looks wild and out of control, and a pro looks effortless.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: But the energy it takes to spin your body at three miles an hour is a ton of energy, and your average person can’t do that.


Paul H: Sure. Paul W: I think that’s one fascinating thing that I have learned from Craig Rose and Dave

Phillips out there at Titleist TPI was when you go through that discussion and it’s not to be too technical for everybody listening, but they talk about the concept of the kinematic sequence and they’ll show you the graph which demonstrates to you how the rotation of the hips initiates everything, which then passes on energy to the rest of your body rotating which passes on more energy to your arms, and then on to the club, that just keeps ramping up that power as it’s passed on to each segment.

Paul H: That’s right.

Paul W: And I think that if the average person could look at that graph and kind of get that, they would be much more prone to be able to make more of a swing machine type of swing I think, because it makes so much sense to look at that. Absolutely, and that’s why I cant believe that the archemenese is even still there. Well what starts the downswing, the arms or body?

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: They’ve got the numbers.

Paul H: Yeah.

Paul W: Been proven time and time again that it’s the body in a better player’s golf swing that fires first.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: But like I say, I’m looking at it as, and this is kinda one of the differences between the way I see the golf swing. When I’m looking at someone hit a golf ball, I’m not watching them hit a ball. I’m imagining them as that machine. So I’m looking at it going well why is their machine not working, and I figure it out from that.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: I figure it out instantly. If you see, you can tell if they’re trying to hit it with their arms like the machine would never do that.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: If they’re arms are buckling through impact, obviously again the machine would never do that. If they’re reverse pivoting like the drive shaft on the machine would never move back and forth. It would move in a circle.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: So it’s just a real simple way for me to kind of understand what the persons doing, and then create a very quick fix for them.

Paul H: Sure. Absolutely.


Paul W: There’s a term that a lot of people have I think heard and used, and I’m not sure that in my inquiries to people, and a lot of times if I work with a group, I like to ask people if they know what this means, and usually people will nod, and I try to get an explanation and nobody has one. So, we’ve heard the term “over the top” before?

Paul H: Yeah and I think you have a pretty good description of that I was reading on your website. Maybe you could just go into what motions that are different from the swing machine swing would prompt an over the top swing and how you would define that for everybody so we can …so everybody will know what that is now and how to remedy that.

Paul W: Right. Well, again don’t think of it in terms of a golf swing first, just understand

the plane. Ok imagine you’ve got a post in the ground and you’ve got something swinging around it, and that thing was swinging at 9 degrees to the post, well the plane on the back swing and the down swing would match the plane after it had swung thru. So the plane like a perfect plane would match perfectly on both sides, relative to the center plane. So you’ve got something twirling around. Simple explanation. Imagine you’ve got a post and theirs a bike wheel attached to it. Ok?

Paul H: Got it.

Paul W: And we tilt the post on an angle a golfer would be n. Well the wheel would be spinning on this post. Well the one side of the wheel would match the other side if you looked at it from a down line viewpoint.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: So now that’s your plane line and it’s, again for me, I’m trying to get it at 90 degrees to your body, cause everything swings it’s fastest at 90 degrees. Now if you took that post with the wheel spinning around it and you tilted it to the left, the plane would be off tilter. It would be aiming or leaning to the left. Now translate it to your golf club. If you had a golf club swinging around your body, and then you tilted your whole body to the left, the golf club would swing to the left. So it would be over top or the original plane line being at 90 degrees to your body.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: Hopefully that gives people an image of what we’re talking about, but really yore trying to get the plane or the golf club swinging at 90 degrees to your body. If you tilt your body to the left, the club will swing left. If you tilt you’re your body severely to the right it will swing out to the right, so looking down the line, it wouldn’t look in proportion.

Paul H: Sure, and then that puts you in a position where you’ve gotta try and do more with the club face and then your making your hands more active then you want them to be.

Paul W: Well the over the top is because they’re turning it with their arms. So if you’re up at the top, remember if you started your body rotation first for the mass moved, your club would always drop towards 90 degrees. 100 percent of the time. If


you’re up at the top and your moving the mass before the axis, what's gonna happen is you’re gonna tip your body to the left. Like just for anyone that wants to try it just go to the range. Hit some balls tilted to the left and hot some balls tilted to the right, you’re body tilt determines the direction of the shot. So, how do you get somebody to be on plane? You turn the arms off, and all you have to do is start the body before the golf club moves and it will be on plane every time.

Paul H: Sure. It’s actually true doing less that we're more likely to do it correctly.

Paul W: Yeah. Exactly.

Paul H: Interesting. There’s one thing too. Not to change topics too quickly. I was reading just a tip that you had just kind of as far as maybe kind of getting ourselves back together on the golf course. You’re talking about having watched Tiger and how after he’s maybe hit an errored shot or two how he kind of regroups himself and kind of slows everything down. I thought that might be something that would be interesting for those of us that occasionally get off in the middle of a round of golf.

Paul W: Right. Well, everybody’s gonna lose it from time to time. And why do you lose it? Well, golf is kind o an exciting game at times, and people wanna hit the ball harder and harder and harder. They’re never content with just swinging at about 80 percent. So they kind of go into that gray area between 80 and 100%, and if you hit that gray area the ball could literally go anywhere. By slowing down to 50 %, that gets you to at least make half decent contact. It starts taking the arms out of your swing; so then you become more body oriented. The body starts moving first before the arms. Your wrists stay loose, and you actually start hitting the ball farther and farther with what feels like 50 % of your ability.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: Really, you’re just slowing it down so that it starts working again and you take the arms out of it.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: When your playing golf, there’s so many opportunities where you feel you just gotta bust it.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: You know, your body just hit it 30 yards by you, so you’re thinking, boy, I’m gonna get him on this one.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: What do ya do? You end up blowing it out of bounds.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: Lets say you’ve gotta get it over some water or some long grass or something or you’re trying to reach a par 5 in two. There’s so many scenarios that could activate your arms in your swing. So it’s a constant battle to try and not do that.


Paul H: Right.

Paul W: When I’m on the golf course, it’s so in my mind to only go at 80 percent, and I

had this conversation with somebody the other day. His son’s kind of a thin, good player. Guy can shoot low 70’s, and his Dad is like “My son wants to hit it as hard as he can. What can I do?” I kind of went through all that. I teach one of the best players in the state here, and we played a round, and this guy’s hitting it 30 to 50 yards behind me. You know I hit it 300 yards. This guy is unbelievable. The thing is not once, all day, did I try to hit it up to this guy. But it just didn’t even enter my mind to try and out drive him.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: But if I was a kid, boy I would have been trying to hit it as hard as I can. You gotta be determined to not go into that gray area, and just play yore game.

Paul H: Sure. It’s especially difficult for a younger player because I think it’s difficult to get your ego out of the way.

Paul W: Exactly.

Paul H: Even for us older kids it’s a challenge sometimes.

Paul W: Well I always tell these young guys, I’d rather be the guy that’s known to shoot 66 every time I come in as opposed to the guy that hit’s it 320.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: Or 340. Why don’t you just start beating these guys? Yeah. That’s the real measure.

Paul H: Yeah. Exactly.

Paul W: Absolutely.

Paul H: Could you maybe discuss? I know you and your DVD series, and your continuing education series. You’ve also got some swing machine DVD’s that relate to the shorts game. So if you could maybe touch on a few elements there, I think that would interesting too.

Paul W: In the short game?

Paul H: Yeah, sure.

Paul W: Yeah. The short games actually pretty easy. Again, it’s understanding. I do have you see the elements of Iron Byron in your short game, but you make set-up modifications and change it a little bit to accommodate shorter shots and that sort of thing. Lets say that it’s a pitch shot for instance. I want to hinge your wrist in the back swing to three different points for the short shots. I get people to point the bottom of the club at a target. Medium shots you’re pointing the butt of the club at the ground, and then long shots are just your normal swing, but I get people to point the butt of the club away from the target. So once the wrist hinge


is set, then I want them to basically flip a switch in their mind that says body or turn. Basically the fun in pitching is, hinge, turn, hinge, turn. Because why I say that is short shots don’t require the same leg drive that a 300-yard drive would require. So I ask them have you turned the motor of your machine off? So on short shots if the motor of the machine is not working, what’s gonna turn your drive shaft, or your upper body? There’s nothing to do that you have to manually turn it. I get people to think of their belly button or their belt buckle turning it left of the target. So basically it’s hinge, so your pointing the butt of the club at one of those three areas, and as soon as you feel the club is hinged in position, immediately turn your belt buckle left of the target. So you’ve gotta get your body ahead of the club coming down.

Paul H: Ok. So that’s really a pitch shot.

Paul W: Sure. I think one thing that I observe with a lot of people is when they reach a yardage where they feel like there’s not any body motion required and then they just jump right into an arm swing and they really have a difficult time kind of making the same good contact and really a hard time having any type of consistent strike on the golf ball when they do that.

Paul H: Absolutely.

Paul W: That’s because the harder they hit the more the arms buckle.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: So if you start on a shot like that with your arms stretched out, and then you hit it with your arms buckling, the club is getting shorter, so if you don’t dip down the exact amount every time, you gonna hit the ball all over the club face. You know, you’ll never hit the same spot twice in a row. If you do it’s luck. Hinge, turn and that gets rid of the. Better players experience pulling the ball with the shorter Irons. You’ve always heard that, a guys got 80 yards in and he pulls it. Well, again, if the aren’t legs aren’t driving that hard it’s not powering your swing. You’ve gotta manually turn your body on those shorter shots, to get your body above of the mass, and then the mass will flatten to 90 degrees.

Paul H: Sure. I think that’s definitely something that when you watch the LPGA or the PGA players on television, and I try to point this out to people is that you almost always on all those little pitch shots and chip shots even, see them at the conclusion of the swing with their chest facing towards the target.

Paul W: Absolutely.

Paul H: Were as I think with a lot of amateur players, you see the upper body’s more square to where their golf ball was, and maybe leaning back to the right a little bit.

Paul W: They’re just trying to scoop it.

Paul H: Absolutely.


Paul W: What’s mind boggling to me is, we all kind of know what a good player looks like, and to see the millions of variations on that golf swing. Just watching people hit balls, it’s incredible.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: I think people sometimes do things with the short game or even the full swing, you could understand a little bit why they do it. You’ve got a bunker; you’ve got some obstacle between yourself and the green. You feel a need to make the ball go up, and you see all kinds of crazy movement. People try to scoop or lean back or do all kinds of things that aren’t necessary or productive as far as hitting the shot that their after.

Paul H: Sure thing. You do know you’ve got, we’ve talked earlier, and you’ve got a putting product that’s coming out. You may or may not want to share a thing or two that might be of interest.

Paul W: I’ll just briefly mention it, because we’re just looking into getting it made again.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: Basically what happened was when I was 14 years old, I invented a thing called a putt-a-cop, and what it is, it allows you to practice your putting indoors. Most devices, you lay them on top of your carpet or whatever and you putt balls into them or they shoot the ball back. That wasn’t good enough for me, so I wanted a real hole in my house. So how do you get a real hole in your house without cutting a hole in your floor? So, I’m looking over one day and I see the heating vent there. So I go, wow, I could probably take that out and put a golf hole in there. So I got some cardboard. Cut it out, put a tin can on it and I was putting balls into this thing, so eventually it turned into an actual product. So, what it is, you take your heating vent out, for those of you in North America anyway, you put this in and it’s the same size. It sit’s in perfectly and there’s air slots in it, and it’s a green piece of plastic, and it’s got a golf hole in it, and the hole is 4 inches in diameter versus four and a quarter which is your standard golf hole which is a little smaller than your standard golf hole. So I used to putt on this thing at home for hours and hours and hours. My Dad and I would do putting competitions every night. My record was 56 in a row from 15 feet.

Paul H: Wow.

Paul W: So I got pretty good, but I practiced two to four hours a day.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: I was just excited by it. It was fun! I wanted to be the guy that was the best putter and would never three putt.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: One of my stories is that I would come in from all these junior tournaments that I played in and I just listen to the different kids that were there and the guy would go, yaw know I shot 78 today, but I had 4 three putts. Or “I shot 75, boy I could have been better but I had 3 three putts”.


I’m thinking myself, if I’m the guy that never three putts, I’m gonna win every time. What I used to do was just practice from one end of the green to the other, over and over, and over again. Most people it takes a little bit of effort, and they don’t wanna put it in, so they’ll sit there and practice 6 footers all day or 10 footers. You’re wasting your time.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: Why not practice a putt you can actually change the percentage. If the best players are 50 percent from 6 feet, and you’re 50 percent from 5 feet, you could sit there for 2 hours a day for a year and you’d be 50 percent from 6 feet. Well why not just practice going back and forth and reduce the amount of three putts you have.

Paul H: Sure.

Paul W: Given the same amount of time, you’d probably become real good at 6 footers, because getting the 30 footer within 2 or three feet is pretty good for golf, so 6 footer would be pretty easy. It’s like spend your time wisely, don’t sit there and practice 10 footers. You’re wasting your time.

Paul H: Sure. I think you find a lot of these people like the kids at the tournament, they’re always complaining about their putting but I very seldom see people actually do something productive to make it better.

Paul W: Exactly, exactly. If you see a guy on the putting green for more than 5 minutes, it’s a miracle. Yeah they’ll hit 20, 30 putts. “Ok I’m ready to go.” No. Try doing that for an hour. Or set up a putting station at home and do twenty minutes a day. It’s all about feeling that stroke continuously.

Paul H: Right.

Paul W: If you’re a once a week golfer, forget it! It’s just never gonna happen. You’ll get that one round a year that’s pretty good; you’ll shoot a pretty good number that day. You made 4 or 5 amazing putts and then you’ll think you’ve got it, and then the next time you go out, it’s a disaster.

Paul H: Sure. I think it’s interesting to that you, to this day can still remember that bench mark, that you had 56 in a row, and that’s what I challenge a lot of people to do. Come up with something that you can measure, and keep track of it, and then you always have something to tell you if you’re getting better or not.

Paul W: Exactly. I got a good one for you though.

Paul H: Ok.

Paul W: This was right when I was practicing, you know, two or four hours a day. I’m wintering in Florida and I get this guy who wants to have a putting competition. He’s known as the best putting guy in Florida.

Paul H: That’s a pretty good title.


Paul W: Yeah. Best putter In Florida. So I take him on. By the time we walked off the green, the guy owed me 50 bucks and he snapped the putter over his leg. It was pretty good.

Paul H: Sounds like he had handed over his title at that point. Paul W: Uhh, yeah.

Paul H: That is pretty funny. That’s outstanding. Well I’ll tell you what do you have any

final thoughts for our listeners out there. Maybe if somebody wanted to take the information that we’ve talked about tonight and they were gonna head out to the range tomorrow what would be maybe a couple of things that you’d have them work on just to maybe try to implement some of these ideas into their swing.

Paul W: Well remember back to what I said quite a while ago you really don’t want to hit

the ball with your arms. I know everybody’s had that shot that felt like nothing so if it felt like nothing you couldn’t have used your arms. So just go out to the range and just start lightening up. If you watch pros on TV they’re not wailing away at it as hard as they can. So if the best players in the world aren’t doing that you probably want to mimic what they’re doing. So if they have what looks like an effortless move and can hit the ball a long way they’re doing the opposite to what you’re doing. So first thing is make your arms absolutely powerless the looser if your arms are relaxed that will loosen your wrist the looser your wrist the faster the golf club is going to swing. But don’t give up on it after 3 shots give it a whole bucket of hitting shots just absolutely as effortlessly as possible. If you have trouble with it put it on a tee and keep doing that powerless arms feeling. I’m telling you, you will hit the ball better than you have ever hit it in your life just by making that simple change.

Paul H: Sure. And I think you make a great point too. That you need to stick with it and

give yourself a chance to get to that "ahaa" shot where all the sudden you feel it and you say ok I think I just did something different there.

Paul W: Exactly. Absolutely. Paul H: And I think a lot of people quit before they get to that golf ball and you never

know when it might be the next one. Paul W: Well that’s right I kinda find it takes probably about 30 to 50 repetitions to kinda

make the breakthrough. But that’s gonna be almost 30 minutes of worth hitting golf balls.

Paul H: Sure. Paul W: If you get through a small bucket ok now you’re kinda getting over that hump and

once you see a few good ones go you’ll become latched on to that feeling relative to your shot. So you’ll equate oh this easy sensation to a good shot. It’s like the average person hasn’t equated it like that yet because they haven’t seen enough good ones go swinging easy.

Paul H: Right.


Paul W: So if every shot doesn’t go good when you’re swinging easy you kinda give up on it going well you know this doesn’t work. But really it does.

Paul H: Yeah, it will eventually. Paul W: You just gotta keep doing it. You gotta see enough good ones go with a feeling

of that it’s effortless to then latch onto it and want to continue doing it. Paul H: Sure, Sure. I think that’s vital to see yourself do something before you’re gonna

completely believe that it’s possible that you can do it. Paul W: Absolutely. Absolutely. Another word of advice to people it’s just make the

change. You’ve gotta just kinda figure out where you are in your game of golf or in your golf swing. Lets say you’re a 12 handicap and you’ve been a 12 handicap for 3 years. It’s not working. Do something else do something different. Change it but when you go to change it you gotta stick with it and make the proper changes. Like work with someone locally or find a method that you can latch onto and then make the effort to change it. You see the best players in the world hit a golf ball these guys aren’t super human they’re just like you. So they’ve gotta be doing something different. If they were doing some weird moves that you couldn’t physically do id say you know what you’re probably not gonna get it. But they’re not they’re just normal people and they can play at a level that’s so much better so they have to be doing it differently. So people need to make the change.

Paul H: I think that’s some great advice. I think what we talked about earlier to, once you

come up with your swing concept try to block everything else out and just kinda focus intently on what it is you’re trying to do because you could definitely muddy the waters to the point where you’re not gonna be able to tell if anything is working.

Paul W: Absolutely. Absolutely. Like a tour pro isn’t sitting there reading the latest edition

of Golf Magazine and trying to tip. Paul H: That’s right. Paul W: It’s not happening. They’ve got they’re one guy that they go to and that’s it.

That’s what they do. They put their heads together and they figure out why he’s not hitting the shots he wants to hit and then they work on it.

Paul H: No question. Paul W: Just keep watching the best players in the world. They know how to do it. If you

do what they do you’re probably gonna become one of them. Paul H: There we go. Well Paul and me, I want to thank you a bunch for you time it’s

been a great interview and hopefully this has clarified a few things as far as being able to make a correct swing for everybody. What were gonna do is have a link on our webpage where people will be able to get access to your websites and your products and so forth. If everybody wants to jot this down it’s going to be www.golfworldsummit.com/paul.html and again that’s www.golfworldsummit.com/Paul and that will enable you to go and check out Paul’s website and all of his products and get more information about how to


make a wonderful swing machine swing. So thank you again Paul it’s been great today.

Paul W: Thanks for the opportunity. I had a great time. Really the goal is to make

everyone better and I hope they can learn a little bit from this interview. Paul H: Awesome. Well I think we’ve definitely got people steered in the right direction.

This is Paul Hobart for the Golf World Summit. I’d like for everybody to take good care and we will see you next time.

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