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African Gender Trouble and African Womanism: An Interview with Chikwenye Ogunyemiand Wanjira MuthoniAuthor(s): Susan ArndtSource: Signs, Vol. 25, No. 3 (Spring, 2000), pp. 709-726Published by: The University of Chicago PressStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3175414

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Susan Arndt

African Gender Troubleand African Womanism:AnInterview with Chikwenye Ogunyemi and WanjiraMuthoni

n May1997, NigerianwomanistliteraryriticChikwenyeOgunyemiandKenyan writer and African feminist activist WanjiraMuthoni partici-pated in a conference titled "Being a Woman: Writing the Lost Body?"which had been organized by Ulrike Stamm on behalf of the literarycenterliteraturWERKstatt erlin. Invited were women writers and literarycriticsfrom all over the world, speaking on such topics as gender and body, gen-der and genetic technology, and civil war and women's bodies. The twoAfrican contributors discussed gender relationships in African countriesand the way they are represented in women's literature.In a paper titled"Did AnybodyDisappear? Covering Womanist Sights,"Ogunyemi (1997)

explored the postcolonial realityof African women (and men) and the wayAfrican women writers perceive it. Moreover, she discussed her concept ofAfricanwomanism, which I will introduce somewhat later. Muthoni readtwo of her (African-feminist) short stories and described the gender-sensitization program that she initiated together with other African-feminist activists,women scholars, and writers.

During their stay in Berlin, I had the pleasureof spending many hourswith Muthoni and Ogunyemi. They visited my seminar at HumboldtUniversity on "New Tendencies in African Women's Writing,"where wehad been discussing, among others, the short stories and essays of thesetwo authors. I was fascinated by their projects and their ideas on societyand gender relationships. These two women had never met before, butthey were an excellent cooperative team (both complementing and contra-dicting each other in very fruitfulways). I felt that someone should docu-ment one of their discussions. They agreed to grant me an interview, andone day after their contributions to the colloquium we met on the sunnyterrace of the literaturWERKstatt.1 planned only to ask each writer to

The materialin this document was taken directly from tape transcriptsof the interview,which was conducted in English, the common language of the three participants.However,I have sometimes edited the text: e.g., if one piece of information was given severaltimes, Imade one sentence out of several.[Signs:JournalfWomennCulturendSociety000, vol.25, no. 3]? 2000 byTheUniversity f Chicago.Allrightsreserved.097-9740/2000/2503-0003$02.00

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reflecton her project-the concept of African womanism and the gender-sensitization program, respectively- and to discuss the two projects witheach other. But the open and friendly atmosphere of the interview mademe soon change to another style. Partly,I left my position as a mediatorand joined the discussion myself, thus using the opportunity to discusswith them the relationship between African feminism/womanism andwhite Westernfeminism, a topic central to my own scholarlywork on Afri-can perspectiveson feminism and African feminist literatures.In the course of my work on this topic I have learnedthat manyAfricansshy away from being referredto as feminists. They say "I am not a femi-nist" but then go on to say they areconvinced that the situation of womenhas to be improved drastically,that gender relations in African societiesneed radicaltransformations,and that they are themselves committed tomaking these changes happen. The negative attitude of many Africansto-ward the term and the concept of feminism is an indication that antifemi-nist positions are widespread in Africa. These antifeminist reactions stemmainly from a sterotypical notion of (white Western) feminism that mayhave some grainsof truth but does not do justice to its heterogeneity.Fem-inism is often equatedwith radical eminism andwith hatredof men, penisenvy, nonacceptanceof Africantraditions, a fundamentalrejectionof mar-riage and motherhood, a favoring of lesbian love, and an endeavor to in-vert the power relationship of the genders. What is reallyworrisome andmomentous for feminism, however, is that even Africanwomen and menwhose Weltanschauung orresponds to basic ideas of feminism have prob-lems with the notions and approaches of white Western feminism. Onecentralcritique is that feminism does not see beyond Westernsocieties andhence ignores or marginalizes the specific problems of African women.Some radicaland Marxist feminists are an exception to the rule, althoughthey often go to the opposite extreme by presuming to be able to speakinthe name of all women, without, however, having really informed them-selves about the situation and the problems of women in other partsof theworld. As a consequence, they base their assessment of the situation andthe emancipatory ideas of African women and women's movements ontheir own views and experiences.While this accusation strikes the Achilles' heel of white Western femi-nism, if not necessarily all white feminists, another reason for the anti-feminist stance of Africans committed to gender issues is much morecontroversial: They claim that they cannot identify with white Westernfeminism, much less act under its auspices, because it concentrates solelyon the question of gender, while they view gender relationships alwaysin the context of other political, economic, cultural, and social forms and

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dissociates herself from Walker: "It is necessary to reiterate that thewomanist praxis in Africahas never totally identified with all the originalWalkerianprecepts. An important point of departureis the African obses-sion to have children"(133). Another difference in content manifests itselfin their incompatible attitudes toward lesbianism. While Walkerempha-sizes that womanists love other women, "sexually and/or nonsexually"(Walker 1983, xi), Ogunyemi argues that her African womanism rejectslesbian love because of the "African... silence or intolerance of lesbi-anism"(Ogunyemi 1996, 133). The core of Ogunyemi's definition of Afri-can womanism is the conviction that the gender question can be dealt withonly in the context of other issues that are relevant for African women.However, in this connection she clearly exceeds Walker's and Hudson-Weems'srace-class-genderapproach.She stresses that an Africanwomanist"will recognize that, along with her consciousness of sexual issues, shemust incorporateracial, cultural,national, economic, and political consid-erationsinto her philosophy" (Ogunyemi 1985, 64). Moreover, anAfricanwomanist must dealwith, among other things, "interethnicskirmishes andcleansing, . . . religious fundamentalism, . . . the language issue, gerontoc-racy and in-lawism" (Ogunyemi 1997, 4). Other African alternativecon-cepts to feminism include the stiwanism of Molara Ogundipe-Leslie(1994), the motherismof Catherine Acholonu ([1991], 1995), and thewomanism f MaryKolawole (1997). Generallyspeaking,the main concernof all of these concepts is to found, among specificallyAfricanwomen, anautonomous alternative o feminism that would contextualize the criticismof gender relationships-and in a much more complex way than theAfrican-Americanconcepts at that.

Among these African concepts, Ogunyemi's Africanwomanism is bestknown, although it is not as famous as Walker'swomanism. However,Ogunyemi's concept is more complex and theoreticallyfounded than thatof Walker.In fact, she is one of the most important scholars of Africanwomen's literature, and her work has much influence in the mainstreamdiscourse in the field.

WanjiraMuthoni is active on a practicalratherthan a theoretical level.In 1997 she resigned from Nairobi University, where she had been a lec-turer on francophone Africanliteratures,in order to pursue her manifoldfeminist projects.Together with other scholars, she has initiated a gender-sensitization program, which includes various kinds of projects. In oneproject, Muthoni and other African feminists travelthroughout the coun-try to speakwith people about gender issues. For instance, they visit policestations and discuss issues such as rape, trying to convince policemen thatit is by no means the fault of the victim or, say, the way she is dressed, a

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position held among many police (not only) in Kenya. While doing this,however, they make a concerted effort not to appeardidactic or demand-ing. The same applies to their talks to village women. Wishing to discusswith them, say, marriage problems, they start by asking about generalproblems in the villages, which eventually leads naturally, Muthonistresses, to the points of conflict between men and women.Another project of the gender-sensitization program is undertaken bythe KenyaOral LiteratureAssociation (KOLA), which arguesthat Kenyanoral narrativesare distinguished by social conformity and that their basicmoral tone is shaped by the patriarchalmindset of Kenyan society.This is,among other things, mirroredin the images of women found in this litera-ture and in their underlying connotations. In the vast majorityof Kenyanoral narratives,women are presented either by their social relationshipto men--they are daughters or wives - and/or by their "biological func-tion"-as mothers or nonmothers. Even old women are represented inthese terms, as the centralidea that informs the characterof the old womanis her social independence from men and the fact that she is relieved of theresponsibility to bear and rear children. Within each of these categories,two types of women are contrasted: the "good" and the "wicked."As aresult of the oralnarratives'conformity with social norms, the characteriza-tion of a woman as good or wicked depends on whether she "obeys"or"disobeys" he patriarchalnorms of Kenyan society.Disobedience is associ-ated above all with autonomous activity by women who articulate theirown interests and actin line with individual and "unpredictable"demands.The speaking up and the activityof women can be understood as symbolsthat stand for women's social power and influence as well as their indepen-dence from men. The conformist oral narratives insinuate that womenwho speak up and act in their own interests alwayshave wicked intentionsand that their behavior always has disastrous consequences. That womenwho behave that way may expect only a life in woeful isolation is symboli-cally shown by the fact that the disobedient women figures die or are di-vorced by their husbands. The opposite of these spiteful women figuresare those who do not articulate individual claims and certainlydo not tryto live them out. Either they arepassiveor they act predictably n the inter-est of their husbands, their children, or social norms. They are mute, orspeak only when spoken to, in order to thwart manifest injustice. In Ke-nyan oral narratives, such behavior patterns, which symbolize women'sreadiness to subordinate themselves and their lack of independence, areaffirmedand rewarded. As a rule, the women in these tales find happinessand fulfillment in the set roles of mother and wife.In face of the fact that Kenyan oral narrativesthus do not only mirror

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but also reproduce existing gender relations, Muthoni and other womenmembers of KOLA initiated a gender-sensitizationprojectcalled "The Lit-eraryRoad to Empowerment": "The aim of this project was to sensitizecreative writers and the readers on gender prejudices and to create newstories either through retelling old narratives or through the creation ofnew stories following traditional oral narrative structures" (Muthoni1994b, 58). Apart from organizing this project and editing anthologies ofrevised stories, Muthoni herself rewrote various misogynist folk tales andmyths. Without removing them from the genre, she changes tiny bits oforalnarratives,which gives them, amazingly,a completely different- oftenAfrican-feminist--significance. Moreover, Muthoni has published severalshort stories that explore and criticizeprevailinggender relations and con-ceptions of manhood and womanhood. In all,Muthoni is an accomplishedAfrican-feministwriter who also practicesher feminism.DepartmentofAfricanStudiesHumboldtUniversity fBerlin

SUSAN ARNDT: Chikwenye Ogunyemi, you criticize white Westernfeminism for being gender centered. Moreover, you arguethat white femi-nists either ignore African women's problems completely or speak in thename of all women without really being sufficiently informed about thesituations and problems of women from other than Western countries.According to you, African-Americanwomanism overlooks Africanpeculi-arities, too. From this you conclude that there is a need to define Africanwomanism. Could you, please, elaborate on the genesis and basic ideasof womanism?

CHIKWENYE OGUNYEMI: You mean African womanism?SA: Yes.CO: I think most theories cannot explain everything. A theory will

definitely leave something out, and so whoever comes after will have todevelop an idea that will take into consideration that which has been leftout. As for us, we cannot take the African-American ituation and its ownpeculiarities and impose it on Africa, particularlyas Africa is so big andculturallydiverse.When I was thinking about womanism, I was thinking about thoseareas that are relevantfor Africans but not for blacks in America-issueslike extreme poverty and in-law problems, older women oppressingyounger women, women oppressing their co-wives, or men oppressingtheir wives. Religious fundamentalism is another African problem that is

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not reallyrelevantto African Americans Islam, some Christiandenomi-nations, and also African traditional religions. These are problems thathave to my mind to be covered from an African-womanistperspective. SoI thought it was necessary to develop a theory to accommodate thesedifferences.SA: Thankyou. I would like to come backto the issues just raised later.But for the moment I want to invite WanjiraMuthoni into this discussion.

WanjiraMuthoni, referringto Simone de Beauvoir'sfamous remark,"youare not born a woman, you become one" in your essay"The LiteraryRoadto Empowerment," you stress that society is constituted by culture andthat culture is in its turn determined by the way people are socialized. Foryou, literature is a "sugar-coated poison" that has a huge impact onpeople's way of thinking and hence on the conceptions of manhood andwomanhood that dominate and determine social realities. Due to this con-viction, you coinitiated a gender-sensitization project titled "The LiteraryRoad to Empowerment."What is the basic idea and intention of this proj-ect?Who are its protagonists?

WANJIRA MUTHONI: We, the Kenya Oral Literature Association,started this project afterrecognizing the fact that most of the literature hatour children were exposed to was literature that gave negative images ofgirls and women. Whether we are dealing with Western or Africanlitera-ture, these images come out. Therefore, those of us who are scholars inliteraturedecided to start this project to sensitize society on the necessityof having different images of women. Our aim is to socialize children intonew ways of perceiving men and women. We want the girls and the boysto perceive themselves and each other differently.So that is what our proj-ect is about.

SA: Are there similarprojects in other partsof Africa?WM: Not that I know of, but I know there is a project in Zimbabwe-the Zimbabwe Women Writers. I think they have written a lot aboutwomen, but I do not know whether they have been rewriting literatureor not.SA: What impact will this project have on general beliefs and notionsof manhood and womanhood? In what sense and to what extent will the

creative literaturewritten or rewritten by you and your colleagues be ableto change existing gender relationships?WM: Although we cannot change the present adults, we hope we canchange the children--the way the children perceive themselves and oneanother. If we manage to do this, we shall have changed the future adults.People who will be adults--say, in ten years time--who will have gonethrough this sensitization, will have very different images of men andwomen. So, you know, our hope is to change a whole new generation.

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SA: Do you already have some reactions or feedback concerning theproject?WM: Yes, our stories have been received very, very well by teachers.Alot of the adult male readers, however, have not received them that well.But even some women have not received them very well. They think weare changing literature, and they feel that this is a sacred field which weshould not interfere with. They hold that maybe we are interfering withthe artistic merits of our literatureand argue that our literature is whatgives our culture its personality. Hence, they are convinced that if wechange the literature,we arechanging the whole personalityof our culture.So some people have not received our stories very positively, but a lot ofteachers and children have.SA: Chikwenye Ogunyemi, you are not only the founder of the veryimportant African-womanistproject, but you are also a literarycritic, andI wonder what your opinion is about the impact literaturemay have ongender relationships. To be more precise: In what respect has literature,over the centuries, shaped the way of thinking, and how far can African-womanist literaturechange the present situation?CO: There is a Kenyanwoman who lives in Nigeria who did a study offresh graduatesfrom Nigerian universities. She found that young womenwho arejust graduating are beginning to behave in a way different frommy generation and my mother's generation, and she wondered what washappening. She found, for example, that some young women - althoughthis is rather a small percentage of women - did not want to be monoga-mous. They preferredto marryinto polygynous households. I think someof this has come from their readingsof writers such as FloraNwapa, BuchiEmecheta, Mariama Ba, Ama Ata Aidoo, and Nawal El Saadawi. Theirreadinghas begun to change their attitude.They want to marry nto polyg-ynous households so that they do not get oppressed in marriagethe waymy generation was oppressed by men. Hence, they would marry some-body who was already married, and then they would live in their ownhouse and have children.They want children, but they also want to be freein marriage.That is why they are rearrangingmarriage:if you do not likehow marriage is evolving in the society, you start making your own ar-rangements. These women manipulate the system so that their childrencan have access to their father. You can call the father a husband, if youlike. The women, like the men, are free to come and go. With such anarrangementthey do not have to do housework for the man and the ex-tended family.So they areveryliberated liberatedin away my generationwas not, as far as housework and such domestic mattersareconcerned. Soin the cities there is alreadythis shift, and I think it is very crucial. Conse-

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quently, the men are beginning to recognize that they cannot hold thewomen down the way they did before, although there are still somewomen who have not yet moved with the times. And so, again, this iswhere feminism is different. Or, does feminism mean that a woman whois "modern"will become immersed in something traditional ike polygyny,then turn it around- turn the whole polygynous concept on its head andthen totally reconstructpolygynous marriage? do not call that feminism,because if you are a feminist of any branch, I do not think you want tomarry somebody who is alreadymarried and has no intention of divorcinghis wife.

WM: That phenomenon is very common in Kenya as well. There youfind women graduates who marry or who have children with a marriedman. I find it very fascinatingthat they pickout the best of the two worlds.They can have children who have an official father and everything, but atthe same time they have their freedom and all that. I do not know whatone would call it, but I find the way in which Africanwomen who havebeen exposed to the new ideas of the sixties and seventies rearrange heirlives very original. Sometimes, when they cannot change the circum-stances- like when they cannot have the new man, the ideal man, the waythey would want him - then they reorganizetheir lives in such a way thatat least they aregetting as close to the ideal as possible.SA: This leads me to the question of how both African womanism andthe gender-sensitization program as a whole rely on men. What role canmen play to make the ideas of your projects come true?CO: Wanjirahas alreadypointed out that our ideas have to be exposedand that men have to be sensitized to our ideas. I think one of the ways inwhich they can become exposed to the idea of a change is not to use nameslike "feminism."This name would alienate them from our ideas. So youcall it something else because it is something different. Then we do notquarrelabout having a colonized mentality.If you begin to nameyour ownactivity yourself, there is power in that naming. And when they see thatthere is power in the naming and also that you do not take them as ene-mies, men agree to be a part of the change that we envisage. Again, asWanjirasaid, the men have to see that something is wrong with our sys-tem. The women also must see that something is wrong. And then youbegin to work together to change it. Whereas, if you just take the womenalone and deal only with the women, then you aregoing to come back tothe men, who have not changed at all. So you have to have some commonground, where you meet and where they see that you mean business- likethis change about marriagewe were just talking about. The men see thatyou mean business, and the way a man treats you if you are independent

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is different from the way the man will treat you if you are dependent onhim. The firstthing is not to be financiallydependent on any man. That isthe firstthing your mother teachesyou- becauseyou may not inherit fromyour father, you may not inherit from your husband. That is why youmust, as much as possible, be self-sufficient. I think when a man sees thata woman is self-sufficient,there is a certainrespect in the relationship,andI think this is very important.SA: I wonder what the relationshipbetween your projectsand Westernfeminism is or could be like? Is it necessaryto cooperate?Is it possible to

cooperate?Are there some ways in which Western feminism and Africanwomanism could go together, or should this kind of cooperation ratherbe postponed?CO: Isn't this conversation a cooperation of sorts?To shift a little, yes-terday I was listening to a lecture delivered by a white Western feminist.2Concluding from this, I would argue that the difference, technologically,between the Westernworld and the African world is so vast that your con-cerns are not necessarilyour concerns. For example, the scholar was talkingabout cyborgs; she was talking about technology. In the discussion, sheraised questions in the medical sphere about transplantsand about whohas the power to declare a body dead and so on. We have not yet got tothat stage at all. When you become involved in that type of conversation,then the Africanworld, which has not yet battled malariaeffectively,getsleft out totally. We have to remind you that we are still down there andstill have our practicalproblems that have not been solved. And so, yes,there are many things you can do. We need cooperation, because the twoworlds are still tied to each other. Economically,we are tied to each other.There is still a lot of migration and immigration, and if things are terriblein Africa, more and more people migrate to the Western world. So it isalso in your interest- particularly f you are overwhelmed by the immigra-tion - to help in some way, because, as I said, economically we are tied tothe Westernworld. We provide raw material and so forth. We need West-ern help to make not a fair distribution of wealth but a fair economic ar-rangement for us to have enough to live on, so that we do not need tomigrate to the West. I think this is very crucial,and feminists, I think, canplay a very important part in that project.WM: Yes, I think feminists can play a very important part. I am tryingto remember who it was who said, "For as long as another human being

2 Here, Chikwenye Ogunyemi refers to Gerburg Treusch-Dieters'spaper "Gender andGen-Technology,"which was presented in Berlin on May 15, 1997, in the course of theconference "Being a Woman: Writing the Lost Body?"

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who resembles me is not free, I cannot consider myself free."I think youcannot consider yourself free if other people who are like you are op-pressed. So Westernfeminists cannot divorce themselves from what is hap-pening to women in other parts of the world. I think one of the ways inwhich they could collaborate is maybe in doing such things as studies thatare more relevant to people, especiallywomen, from the rest of the world.But coming back to the lecture of yesterday,I think that that lecture wasnot only irrelevantto Africans but even to non-middle-class Europeans. Ibelieve that this lecture does not take the concerns of the majorityof Euro-pean women into consideration. So I think one way would be to go backto what was happening in the sixties and seventies, when people wereworking for their communities, for others. At those times there was theconcern for others, not this individualistic concern we have with ourselvestoday, when things like "CanI get a hearttransplant?"I, you know - areasked, and not questions such as "What is good for us, the community?"SA: What you both ask for is a kind of support that should be offeredby any sensible person in the West, not only by feminists. I mean feministsshould do this, but others too. Everybody should do it!CO: But, as women suffermost, particularlywith the StructuralAdjust-ment Programs,3feminists should be on the front line. You have to bringit into the consciousness of the people that, for instance, women - at leastin Africa--are the ones who get the least attention from hospitals. Andthey are the ones who get sick so quickly,because more men are workingin more conducive atmospheres. It is girls who have little access to formallife-enhancing education.WM: And also because when you say everybody, then what you oftenmean is nobody. If you do not say I or we as feminists, we will do this,and if you sayeveryone should do it, usuallynobody does it. As Chikwenyeis saying, the impact of the StructuralAdjustment Programs in Africa hasbeen disastrous, but it has been much worse for women because if there isno money to go to hospital, who will not go to hospital?Usually the manwill go, but the women and children will not go. When children must bewithdrawn from school, many parents will withdraw the girl child fromschool. So we need to look at the actual impact of development and soforth on women. So that is why feminists have an even bigger role to play

3The aim of Structural djustment rogramss to provideAfrican ountries he condi-tions for acompetitivemarketeconomy. n thisrespect,ourcomponents remost decisive:(1) liberalizationf the externalrade; 2) deregulationf the economy, .e., abrogation fallregularizationshichwould hinder reedevelopment f economy e.g.,safetyprovisionsforworkers, ollectivewage agreements);3) attaining balanced ationalbudget, .e., re-ducing he nationalndebtedness;nd(4) denationalizationf state-ownednterprises.

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and cannot just afford to say,you know, everybodyhould do that, becausethen they might forget the special role they have to play.SA: What both of you have written and said has enriched me a lot.Above all, my feminist horizon has been broadened. But still, I want tochallenge you. To my mind, there is not "the eminism." Feminism is het-erogeneous. Its pluralitymakes me speakof feminisms. But there is a kindof smallest common denominator of all feminisms. I would describe femi-nism as the worldview and way of life of women and men who, as individ-uals, groups, or organizations, actively oppose social structuresresponsiblefor discrimination against and oppression of women on the basis of theirbiological and social gender. Feminists not only recognize the mechanismsof oppression, they also aim at overcoming them. Changes are envisagedin three vital areas: First, social discrimination against women must beended. Second, gender-specificroles in the family, and with them the op-pression and disadvantaging of women in the familial sphere, must beovercome. Third, an amendment of unwholesome individual and collec-tive conceptions of manhood and womanhood is to be striven for. I thinkthat this basic definition may be applied to the Africancontext, too. Ulti-mately,it even harmonizes with the centralidea ofwomanism, doesn't it?Ido not want to deny that, due to cultural, economic, and social differences,globally, there are many variations on this feminist theme, that there areculturally specific differences and varieties of feminism. African feminismis one such variety.There is no doubt that, when transferred o the Africancontext, the general understanding of feminism must be modified, sincethe nature of official discrimination, discrimination within family struc-tures, and discriminatorygender conceptions is defined differentlyfor eachgiven African society. However, is it really inevitable that this specificityresults in separatismas is suggested by the concept of African womanism?To my mind, it does not seem helpful to answerthe ignorance and culturalimperialism of many Western feminists with the creation of a new termand the foundation of a completely separateor even separatistmovement,while leaving feminism undertheorized as it is. For it does nothing tochange the "gender- and Western-centeredness"of most white Westernfeminisms, which poses a serious threat to the survivalof the world's femi-nisms. Moreover, if we have several separatedmovements, then in a waywe weaken our power as women who areconcerned with challenging pre-vailing gender relationshipsand who aim at an improvement of the situa-tion of women all over the world. Hence, in my opinion it is prudent tolead a discussion among various kinds of feminists in order to redefine it,rather than to split the women's movement by changing the terminology.Another argument against separatismis that once started it is difficult to

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confine it. This comes alreadyto light with the fact that African womenhave developed purely African counterconcepts to feminism, whileAfrican-Americanwomen have proposed womanist concepts for all blackwomen. Similarly, within Africa you have differences, too. Ultimately,South Africanfeminism differsfrom Nigerian feminism; and the feminismof Igbo and Yoruba women in Southern Nigeria differ from those in thenorth of Nigeria and so on. To my mind, the apparentlyendless possibilityof founding autonomous groups alreadyshows that ultimately separatismis no solution for anything. Is it reallynecessaryto introduce a new gender-committed emancipatory concept?CO: To me, as I said, naming is power. If you are experiencing some-thing, you are the one who names your child. You name your idea, and ifyou depend on somebody else to do your naming for you, you do notknow what is behind the person'snaming. In my culture every name has ameaning. That is why when you give childrenEnglish names that you can-not pronounce, they are meaningless. But if you name your child in Igboor Yoruba,it has a meaning and that child will have to live up to its name.Takefor example my name- "My Chi is in consonance with me"- whichhas a psychological purpose: When I am in difficulties, I try to rememberthis name that my parents gave me. It takes care of my needs. So when Icome together with a "feminist" the problem is not the naming. We candeal with issues that have to be dealt with. But all the time I am also con-scious of the fact that African men are also oppressed. If you put them ina global context, African men are also oppressed. When they come home,they also oppress the women. So there aredifferent layers,but if I do notremember that Africanmen areoppressed just as women areoppressed inthe global context, then I am going to deal only with the gender relation-ship between black women and men. And I do not want to deal only withthat, because there is another oppression oppressing both of us. I mustalways be conscious of that. There are, for instance, the war going on inRwanda, the wars going on in Zaire, in Liberia. We are all oppressed.Somebody brought in arms and armed us to start fighting each other. Weare stupid for fighting each other, but the arms came from somewhere. Inthe Biafranwar, the arms came from somewhere, too. And we startedkill-ing each other. We must alwaysbe conscious of that outside world. Mostfeminists of all categories outside Africaunwittingly gain from the globalarrangements.WM: In my opinion, names arenot all that important. What is impor-tant is what we do, is the work we aredoing. So, depending on the groupI am working with, I could say this is feminist work, or African-womanistwork, or community work, or whatever. The name emphasizes the way I

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look at things. But what is more important than the names we choose--Westernfeminism,Africanfeminism, whatever-is what we are doing andthe goal that we are aiming at. I think what is more important is the workand then to look for common ground. We have to find out the commonissues. In yesterday's ecture, for instance, there was the question of thisstory of forceps delivery.I think we could have had a very interesting de-bate. This comes from a Westerncountry and in Africanot all women haveaccess to a forceps delivery,whereas in the West every woman has accessto it. From here, we could have starteda common debate- a debate evenon those issues. There is a way of reaching consensus on some points andthen saying: OK, these arethe problems. You concentrate on this, becausemaybe that is what you specialize in, and you concentrate on, maybe, theeconomic issue, and you concentrateon the political issue. You know, it isvery important that all of us concentrate on our areasof expertise.That iswhy I do not find that there is a problem.SA: Chikwenye Ogunyemi, you have developed a new theory of howAfrican men and women should transformexisting gender relationships,and you, WanjiraMuthoni, have put feminist ideas into practice. Havingmet each other here in Berlinfor the firsttime, you have realizedthat yourprojects have a lot of common ground. In what respects do your projectsfit or complement each other?CO: Oh, yes. I can see what you are saying. We, Wanjiraand I, differ.She is doing something on the ground; she is experiencing something go-ing on on the ground. And also the situation in Kenya is slightly morefavorableto this type of thing than the situation in Nigeria in West Africa.For example, in Kenyathere is a little more funding for things to be done,the climate is betterfor tourism, so you have more tourists going there andso on. It is a totally differenttype of climate compared to what happens inNigeria or in Ghana or Liberia. And so that differencealso brings about adifference in approach, a difference in how I conceive things. The thingsthat might work in Kenya might not work in Nigeria. They are totallydifferent. Like what I have just said about this new type of dealing withpolygynous marriages.Wanjirasays it's been there in Kenya all the time,and we are just beginning to do that type of thing. And in the northernpart of the country, where Islam is entrenched, you cannot even be sorevolutionary.Culture still makes the difference to our attitudes, to whatshould be done. However, we can learn from each other, emulate oneanother.

WM: I met Chikwenye four days ago. I was not awareof the work shehas been doing and all that. Now I am really impressed by what she hasbeen doing. Coming to your question, where one work fits into the other,

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I think what she has been describing as African womanism - like the cele-bration of motherhood and all that- is what I have been writing about,without giving it a name. And I find this really, really amazing. When wemet on Monday, I was also very much impressed by Chikwenye'sscholar-ship. I told her that I call all this what I have been doing feminism, andyesterday,as I listened to maybe what is "properfeminism" [WanjiraandChikwenye laugh heartily], I said to her, now I no longer know what tocall what.

CO: She said, maybe I will leave it without a name.WM: Yes, maybe I will leave it without a name. I think that the onlypositive contributions to this conference were made when we talkedaboutthe African perspective. I found this very interesting. Although there isextreme poverty in Africa,there is this African-womanistspirit that comesthrough. Without knowing the idea of Africanwomanism, in my writingsI celebratedwomanhood and motherhood, even in the context of a lot ofharshness. So I found that what I am doing fits in verywell with Chikwen-ye's ideas. I think the other problem is names. I do not know what to callwhat. But I find our projectsfit in verywell. OK, there are those geograph-ical differences, but I thought it was reallysimilar.

CO: Wanjira's tory "Gateru,the BeardedWoman" (1994a) is, for ex-ample, what I would call a he-woman or what Ifi Amadiume would calla "male woman."4 The concepts we are dealing with theoretically, shedeals with in her fiction. Also, the protagonist in "Why God CreatedWoman" (1994c) is a boss, and she has five children. If she is a boss, sheis in a sense a man. So, here is a male woman who haschildren,or awomanwith a beard, meaning she is identified with the male world, wantingto marry and have children. And so the ideas all come together. Wanjirais creating strong women of the type of Flora Nwapa's Efuru (1996).Nwapa said the first advice her mother-in-lawgave her was, "You must be4 Ogunyemi refers here to IfiAmadiume'sbookMale Daughters,FemaleHusbands(1987),which explores the flexible gender system of the Nnobi Igbo in Nigeria. What is meant bythe term male woman is that the biological gender is not necessarilyidentical with the socialsince certaingroups of women could assume the social role of men. If an Igbo man had noson, and hence no heir,he could appoint his oldest daughter as his "son."The "socialgender"then weighed more heavilythan the biological. Such a woman was referred o asnhanye(male

daughter). According to her social gender, she married women. This did not mean, however,that these marriageswere lesbian. Since the woman was socially a man, but not biologically,she was not allowed to sleep with her wives. Instead, the wives were allowed and, indeed,like the igba ohu (female husband) herself, expectedo keep lovers. The children whom thesewomen brought to the world belong to their igbaohu.Even if the sons conceived under thesecircumstances nherited the propertyof the father of the nhanyeand carriedon his family line,women were thus given the opportunity to attainwealth, political power, and authority.

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independent- financiallyand emotionally, too."In other words, you makea relationshipwith other women, not only with your husband. Then, youwill have a community relationship with other women. So you can relyemotionally on those women. This is important because in Wanjira's torythe midwife helps the protagonist. She finds herself in a community ofwomen, and it is that community of women that helps her to bring thechild into the world. These arevery important issues. Wanjiraand I comeclose together, andher stories arefascinating.They complement my theory.SA: Let me ask a final question. As we all know, colonialism worsenedthe situation of African women a lot. However, there are forms of patriar-chal oppression that have their roots in traditionalAfrican societies. ManyAfrican feminists or African womanists have, for example, problems withphenomena such as polygyny, arrangedmarriage,bride-wealth,and femalecircumcision. But they also know that with criticizing these institutions,they arguein the same vein aswhite Westernfeminists and other represen-tativesof culturalimperialism.They hold that institutions such as circumci-sion show that African women aremuch more oppressed than white West-ern women and conclude that African societies are rather backward incomparison to Westernones. How do you as Africanfeminists/womanistsdeal with this dilemma?Is it a problem for you?CO: Are you are askinghow we deal with it in Europe or how we dealwith it in Africa?

SA: Is there a big difference?CO: Yes, there is a big difference. If I am talking in Europe, I do notwant somebody to tell me what to deal with. And then, if I am talking athome, I think I can be more - what shallI say? outspoken, more candid.I may say frankly,"Listen,this female circumcision is terrible."At home, Imay be more open and more criticalabout it. Whereas,when I come here,if somebody is going to dictate the agenda and limits me to female circum-cision, not inviting or enabling me to talk about other areas that I think heor she canhelp me with, I get annoyed. If you want to talk about veiling, ifyou want to talk about female circumcision, so that I do not talk aboutother things, where you really can help me, I get annoyed. Because I donot want to be objectified. White Westernfeminists, too, make us Africanwomen put a veil on our private parts. Of course, there are certainthingsthat arewrong with Africa.And we are awareof them. There areways foryou to help us in overcoming these things. But I do not like that Westernfeminists concentrate on issues voyeuristically,so that I cannot talk aboutanything else.WM: You have asked how we deal with traditional institutions. Well,Chikwenye has talked about how to deal with the institution of polygyny.

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She has stressed that some women have looked for convenient ways ofliving within that institution. A lot of women have, however, rejectedandopposed it very strongly.There aremany institutions that have power andthat you could call very sexist. As a rule, women have failed to get accessto institutions where power is exercised. But there is the need for womento get into them. In Burundi there is an institution called bashingantai.Bashingantai are the wise people; it is like the council of elders. Womenhave not been allowed- even under the circumstancesof war- to join thiscouncil. And this year [1997], I think it was in April, there was a ceremonyfor enthroning the new members of the bashingantai.Out of forty mem-bers, seven were women. I think that is already something. Now womenaregoing to be ableto exercisepower. And the good thing was that one ofthe women was a woman who had gone through our gender-sensitizationproject in Burundi. So once they come in, then they can introduce a highlevel of gender analysisand have an impacton other members of the coun-cil of elders and even on the whole community, who might not be as favor-able to women's issues as this woman is.

CO: Let me repeatthat in Nigeria women have a ministry for women'saffairs.So there is a whole ministryfor women and, I mean, this is a fantas-tic idea. I think the movements that women have been making from thegrassroots areslowly beginning to change the system. To me, the next stepfor true democracy is to have two houses of representatives one con-sisting only of women and one only of men. This would be true democ-racy,and not what is practicedhere, where some women go to vote butdo not act as representatives.WM: I think rather than having two houses, it would be better to haveone house with fifty-fifty representations.There would not only be a fiftypercent in numbers, but also in weight--in the weight that women canbring in. From this, Africanwomanism would benefit a lot. Women wouldnot only be considered as "negative"or counterforces. They could provethat they are constructive.They could bring all ideas of Africanwomanisminto Parliament or into the National Assembly or whatever.SA: I like and support your ideas of a gender-balanceddemocracyverymuch. Unfortunately, at the moment it is hardlymore than a utopia--inAfrica as well as in the West. Similar to the way your ideas concerninggender-balanceddemocracydiffer in detail, the whole interview has shownthat you are singing the same song--the song of gender-equality- butwith different voices. These two voices are not trying to rise above but tocomplement each other in a very fruitfulway.The interview has taught memany things, among others that the song of Africanfeminism/womanismis polyphonic, optimistic, powerful, and inspiring. Thank you very much.

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ReferencesAcholonu, Catherine 0. (1991) 1995. Motherism: TheAfrocentricAlternative toFeminism.Owerri, Nigeria: Afa.Amadiume, Ifi. 1987. Male Daughters,FemaleHusbands:Genderand Sex in anAfri-canSociety.London: Zed.Hudson-Weems, Clenora. 1993. Africana Womanism:ReclaimingOurselves.Troy,Mich.: Bedford.

.1998. "AfricanaWomanism."In Sisterhood, eminisms,andPower:FromAf-ricato theDiaspora,ed. Obioma Nnaemeka, 149-62. Trenton, N.J., and Asmara:Africa World Press.Kolawole, Mary E. Modupe. 1997. Womanism ndAfricanConsciousness.renton,N.J., and Asmara:Africa World Press.Muthoni, Wanjira. 1994a. "Gateru, the Bearded Woman." In her The BeardedWomanand OtherStories,ed. MirukaDies, 6-8. Nairobi: KOLA..1994b. "The Literary Road to Empowerment." In TheRoad to Empow-erment, ed. Wanjiku Kabira and WanjiraMuthoni, 54-68. Nairobi: AfricanWomen's Development Communication Network (FEMNET)..1994c. "Why God Created Woman." Writer'sForum 2:10-18.Nwapa, Flora. 1966. Efuru. London: Heinemann.Ogundipe-Leslie, Molara. 1994. "Stiwanism: Feminism in an African Context."Inher Re-CreatingOurselves: frican Womenand CriticalTransformations.renton,N.J.: Africa World Press:207-41.Ogunyemi, Chikwenye Okonjo. 1985. "Womanism: The Dynamics of the Con-

temporaryBlack Female Novel in English."Signs:Journalof Women n Cultureand Society11(1):63-80.. 1996. Africa Wo/ManPalava: TheNigerian NovelbyWomen.Chicago andLondon: University of Chicago Press.. 1997. "Did AnybodyDisappear? Covering Womanist Sights." Paper pre-sented at"Beinga Woman:Writingthe LostBody?"conference,literaturWERK-stattberlin, Berlin,May 12-16.Walker,Alice. 1983. In Search fOurMothers'Gardens:WomanistProse.San Diego:Harcourt BraceJovanovich.

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