OFF the Edge-Lawyers Story

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Opposite page, left to rightFadiah Nadwa Fikri, Syuhaini Safwan, Ravinder SinghDhalliwal, Puspawati Rosman and Murnie Hidayah Anuar

YES, NOSTA LGIA IS N T what it used tobe: Frankly speaking, I see no hope for theolder generation, says lawyer PuspawatiRosman, 28. We should start with educatingthe younger generation to raise theirawareness of issues of justice and humanrights. Ouch.

Puspa, as shes known to her friends, isone of the five lawyers from the KL Legal AidCentre who were arrested on May 7 this yearfor doing what lawyers do: representing,or rather, attempting to represent those inneed of legal counsel. In this case, she andher (yet younger) colleagues Fadiah NadwaFikri, Murnie Hidayah Anuar, RavinderSingh Dhalliwal, Syuhaini Safwan wereresponding to what, in lawyerly lingo, iscalled an urgent arrest matter.

The short version: Fourteen people hadbeen arrested by the police for holding acandlelight vigil outside of the BrickfieldsPolice Station for Bersih activist, Wong ChinHuat, who had been charged for sedition.

The five lawyers were kept outside the

gates of the station for about an hour beforea DSP Jude Pereira approached them to letthem know the 14 activists had signed formswaiving their right of access to lawyers, andthat he had invoked Section 28A(8) of theCriminal Procedure Code to deny an arrestedperson counsel under certain conditions.*When asked by the lawyers to providethe grounds for his decision, and to showthem the forms, Pereira had walked away.Meanwhile, the 14 arrested persons could beheard shouting, We want lawyers.

Immediately after, OCPD ACP Wan AbdulBari bin Wan Abdul Khalid approached thegate and demanded everyone outside thegate disperse within three minutes as they

were part of an illegal assembly (Section 27,Police Act). He counted to three before thegates were opened and the lawyers seized.And then the lawyers were in turn denied bythe police of the right to their lawyers.

ONE APOCRYPHAL EXPLANATIONof chaos theory has to do with theinterconnectedness of all things andunintended consequences a butterflyflapping its wings in say, Tajikistan, createsripples that are felt in ways weird and outof all proportion in, say, Batang Berjuntai.(If thats hard to swallow, think of it ineconomics-speak, as a multiplier effect.)

The delicate flapping of wings, in the case

of the five lawyers, could have happenedeven as the first brainwave for a take-over of the (Pakatan Rakyat) Perak stategovernment emanated from wherever the

plan was hatched.It collided with the inchoateness of

the 1Malaysia idea, which Bersih activistand academic Wong had adapted for his1BlackMalaysia idea instead. Wong hadsuggested the wearing of black before theconvening of the Perak state assemblyon May 7 to protest the sheer and utterexpediency of the takeover of the Perak stategovernment and its effects on the Malaysiandemocratic values and due process.

He was arrested (on May 5), leadingto the illegal assemblies outside theBrickfields police station (May 6 and 7) andthe arrests of the 14 who had gathered insolidarity, and of the five lawyers.

Even less delicate are the implicationsfor the rule of law in this country, thatconcept so misunderstood by functionariesto mean largely what they can use or allowof the law to do to others that they wouldnot to themselves.

Simply put, a literalist view of the lawthat sees it a mere instrument of power

makes a nonsense of due process because itdisregards any guiding principles and values.Due process is a level-field for the public inits dealings with the state, that is entrustedby it with so much power over public life.

The countrys legal system was inheritedfrom its colonial masters, and originallydesigned with British colonial objectives inmind until the granting of independence.The Federal Constitution was created ina different spirit, which its provisions onfundamental civil liberties keep alive. If theConstitution is ignored, that spirit dies aslow death. The legal system remains intact,but devoid of any guiding values, it will besubverted and wielded as an instrument

of power. This is why an allegiance to theConstitution, rather than any feudal idea ofan overlord, is imperative for democraciesto work. But is it beyond the ken of thosein our national institutions to owe theirallegiance to an abstraction called the rule oflaw, rather than to a feudal figure?

The case of the five lawyers means thatarrested persons can be arbitrarily deniedtheir right to legal representation, and thatanyone attempting to represent them risksarrest as well. And so it is precisely the law-abiding citizen who should be concerned,notes Murnie Anuar. This is not about fivelawyers who got arrested, but about whatcan happen toyou. We had the weight of the

Bar Council behind us, she observes. Thesubsequent public spotlight on the policecompelled it to be more scrupulous in itsapplication of the law and more circumspectin disappearing the lawyers.

BUT ARE WE too squeamish? In medievaltimes, it used to be that detentions andtortures were at the pleasure of an absoluteruler. The fear was as much, if not more,from not knowing what the kings spies and

agents would do to you, and when.What more if one considers neighbouring

countries: Indonesia, under Suharto,murdered at least 500,000 to 1 million of itsown people between 1965 and 1966, callingthem communists; Pol Pot in Cambodiadid the same to 1.7 million of his peoplebetween 1975 to 1979. How many did theBurmese military government slaughterlast year? Malaysia is no failed state, evenif it cannot be called a modern nation-state, having nine kingdoms in its midst.In the history of brutality, this country isthankfully not yet Malaysia Boleh.

Under the soft lights of the caf atwhich we meet with the five lawyers, theexperience of the lawyers evaporates in thesmell of premium coffee. It seems churlishto complain when you could be feeling thegrowth and development.

And yet, as Fadiah points out, in ourcomfort zones, we dont take notice ofthe other worlds outside our own, andtherefore sanction by ignorance, wilful

or otherwise, the inhuman treatment ofothers unlike ourselves. The likes of AKugan do not find a seat here. With everysanction of a human rig hts violation, wedehumanise ourselves and our communitybit by bit. Here, five young Malaysiansspeak in the language of rights lost tofearful and expedient elders, and sharewhats important to them. Excerpts:

* The right of an arrested person to a lawyer of his orher choice is guaranteed in Section 28A(4) of the CriminalProcedure Code and Article 5(3) of the Federal Constitution.

What did you learn from the lokapexperience about working within thesystem and what the system is?Fadiah: Its very frustrating to actuallywitness something right before my own eyesas to how the system works. We have all the

written laws, we have all the provisions, theFederal Constitution as the highest law...But the reality is otherwise. We are deniedaccess to our clients, and this shows that,okay, what happens to the right to legalrepresentation?

...the very foundation of a good and a justsociety depends on a fair criminal justicesystem. All of these rights are guaranteedby the Federal Constitution and its thefundamental liberties as a matter of thefundamental rights of a person, for exampleif you get arrested, you must be accordedthese rights. But on [a] daily basis even as alawyer, a voluntary lawyer for the Legal AidCentre, we see that these rights are being

ignored and denied to ordinary citizens,every day.

For example, you know that if you getarrested, you can only be held in a lock-up for24 hours and you have to be brought beforea magistrate. But weve got cases wheresome of them have to languish in lock-upsfor months sometimes, because they donthave access to lawyers. And not everyone canhave access to lawyers, that is one thing forsure. But the system must uphold the rights


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of citizens who are arrested and detainedin the police lock-up pending trial becauseits not only the lawyers duty to ensurethese rights are given meaning. The police,the magistrate, the prosecution everyone plays a part to uphold these rights. But thisis not happening, and the situation is in factdeteriorating.

Daily, there are people being denied thesestatutory rights.

Going to courts, facing theseinfringements regularly, it makes us think,what is happening? We supposedly live inan era of modernity where we think wehave everything but we fail to observe thisfundamental requirement of a civil society- miserably, I would say. Youre dealing withhuman beings, who have fundamental rights.

For example, remand. (The police canapply to a magistrate to hold an arrestedsuspect in remand to facilitate investigationsbut are required to give reasons for doing so.)Sometimes, the magistrate just says, Oh, itsokay lah, Ill just give you one day, two days,

three days - its a matter of procedure.What procedure are you talking about?

If there is no real need to detain that person,you cannot lock him up, not even for oneday. But theres no such thing if we argueit out in court and cite cases, principles andprovisions of the law, its all ignored. It isalways ignored, I dont know why. I think thesystem has failed us in that sense.

So theres reform to be done, but I dontunderstand why, when we talk about reform,everyone starts jumping, like, oh no, noand being very defensive...

I say, we want reforms!We want to have some kind of minimum

standard for the protection of these rights,

to actually give some kind of responsibilityto the authorities to do this. Its not goingto hurt anyone if youre really [interested]about correcting this system.

Ravinder: The guy who took my 112statement (Section 112 of the CriminalProcedure Code, pertaining to the suspectscautioned statement), I dont even know hisname. This guy took my statement for twohours, I dont know his name.

Do you have a right to demand that heidentifies himself?[According to S112] he has to put the name

to the statement. I was hardly given achance to read my statement. I was allowedto read it, but when you have a man there,ridiculing you for a whole hour, youre not inany frame of mind...

What kind of ridicule was this?He made fun of the fact that I was thirstybecause I hadnt had a drink inside the lock-up yet, except for the how-many ounces ofteh-o they gave us.

Then he had a drink in front of me. Hemade fun of the fact that I was forced to wearprison clothes his exact words were, Taktahu berapa orang pakai tak cuci-cuci sampaidia pakai sekarang (who knows how manysuspects have worn them but weve neverwashed the clothes before). Yes, he found itvery amusing amongst his friends, includinga female police officer... What else did he say?He made fun of lawyers whom he thoughtused the law only when it suited them. Hesaid, when it comes to escaping the law,thats when they use the law.

The whole allegation made by... I think theIGP who said that, the lawyers thought theyare above the law. I think the simple barefact is that when did we ever we say wereabove the law? When did we ever ask for anyprivileges that should not be accorded to us?[At no point.] We wore lock-up clothes; they(the girls) were handcuffed; at no point didwe try to resist arrest; we entered inside wenever asked for any special privileges; wewere released just like anyone else... Then

people started asking us where was I located.Until three o clock when we were released noone knew where I was located.

So you didnt know where you were.I was shipped out at around three oclockin the morning from Brickfields policestation in a car at high speed, along withthe reporter from Suara Keadilan, [LawTeck Hao]. We were driven to Taman TunDr Ismail police station, at which point allour belongings were removed and recorded.Until I was released, back in Brickfields, thenext day at three oclock, no one knew whereI was. Even people who cal led Taman Tun(police) station was not told I was there;

family members, anybody. A lot of peoplewere looking for me. I could not be located.If I had been held any longer, they couldhave lodged a missing persons report.

Murnie Hidayah Anuar: These are theinstances which show why we need reformof the police and for an independentcomplaints commission to be materialised.

As Fadiah said, you have to look at thecriminal justice system holistically. Thepolice, lawyer and judges, we work together.And the police play a key role in ensuringthat this system can work. We now have theJudicial Appointments Commission, but we

see nothing for the police.What happened to the five of us is just

one example that shows to the public howserious [the breakdown in the rule of law in]Malaysia is now. If they can do that to thelawyer whos just discharging her statutoryduty, it can happen to anyone who is aMalaysian citizen, what more to the generalpublic. This is my major concern.

Ours is just one instance [of an abuse ofthe legal system], there are a lot of others,

Provenance: Born inTaiping, Perak, livedin Penang, KL. My dadwas from Kedah. Hisfather and mother werefrom Acheh, Indonesia.My mom was born

and bred in Penang.My father was born inPenang but I believe mygreat grandfather wasfrom India.

Education: I received my primary education inSekolah Kebangsaan Sungai Gelugor in Penang,a simple kampung school in which almost95 percent of the students are Malays. Therewere many instances where we were told tostudy hard and to follow some of these anakcina (the term my teacher loved to use).Unfortunately, I did not end up admiring theseanak-anak cina but more to envy them andtrying to prove to my teacher that she wasindeed wrong.

Later, I was offered a place at St GeorgesGirls School in Pulau Tikus, Penang. That wasmy first time mixing with Chinese and Indians

students. Amazingly, it turned out pretty well.I managed to get some non-Malay friends,sufficient to clarify some misconceptions thatyou had in mind before this.

Unfortunately, I was in that school for onlyone month. My mum insisted on me going to areligious school and I obeyed: Almashoor IslamicGirls School, a good, control religious school inPenang. I honestly believe that if you think thatwhat you are doing is right, you should be ableto defend it. But of course that is not the way inmy school. People do not really question thingsbecause they were afraid that by doing so, youwere therefore questioning the religion.

When I entered UIA, I was so lucky to havefriends and my lecturers who taught me somuch on how to see things in a very wideperspective. Amazingly, these people are theones who are much different from me (or Iused to think that I am much more religious or

baik than them): girls who smoked, did notwear the scarf, watched movies in cinema, wentclubbing... However, they also never spoke badlyabout other people, forgave easily and were thefirst ones to help whenever you were in trouble.Although a person can be so different from you,either from a moral or religious perspective, it isjust not fair to label them bad.Work experience: Amnesty International, MercyMalaysia. I was called to the Bar early this year.The experience of getting arrested is a highlightand hopefully my motivation to fight for what isright in the future.

Age 25, born in AlorStar, Kedah, educated

at Sekolah RendahIslam Abim and MaktabMahmud at Alor Star,then Kolej Islam SultanAlam Shah, Klang,Selangor. DeansList ever-present,law graduate of theInternational IslamicUniversity, Malaysia.

Represented Malaysia and International IslamicUniversity Mooting Team in the 46th Philip C.Jessup International Law Moot Court Competition


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Ravinder: Theres another point. The policehave discretionary powers, budi bicara; inMalaysia now its very, very loosely used[and] the favourite term... [Its found in]Section 28A(8) (of the Criminal ProcedureCode, which the police, on reasonablegrounds, may deny a suspect access to alawyer). I dont deny that in life-or-deathsituations, the section has its uses, such aswhen someones life may be at risk.

In this case, youve arrested five lawyerswho identified themselves as lawyers fromthe Legal Aid Centre, and not even lawyerswho have a pecuniary advantage to be there.It is eleven oclock at night; I can think ofbetter things to do at that hour. And theyused the section against us to deny us of our

right to counsel because it would hinderinvestigations. What possible explanationis there for the exercise of budi bicara whatinvestigations are we going to hinder byletting us see our counsel?

There is a natural antagonism betweenthe police force and lawyers, in general,

because the lawyers are seen as theguys who represent the other side,the criminals. But in this case, theredoesnt seem even to be any sort ofunderstanding that youre part of asystem.Fadiah: Because they fail to recogniselawyers as officers of the court. Police, the

judges and the lawyers, we work together ina system, and we cannot work in isolation.They simply regard us members of theopposition. They fail to appreciate the factthat we are not only discharging these socialduties but we are discharging our statutoryduties as provided for under the LegalProfession Act.Ravinder: If youre charging someone for anoffence, that person has a [statutory] right toa defence; he has a right to be heard in court...

From the cases the Legal Aid Centrehandles, as you mentioned, there seemsto be a trend of due process beingdisregarded and there doesnt seemto be anything that can be done aboutit. There is a system, but the system isfailing because they dont understandit...Murnie: Its not that they dont understandthe system. They understand the system;they choose not to follow the system. Itsabout mindsets.Puspawati: Theyre just followinginstructions, but I dont know where theinstructions are coming from.Fadiah: Its no longer a situation where if

you ask, that person would actually provideyou with a reasonable answer. Its a situationwhere, I dont care what the answers are,Im just following instructions.

But are there actually instructions?Ravinder: Let me put it this way. How is thepolice to be accountable if in the papers thenext day, the PM says, I cannot look intothe micro-runnings of the police, the IGPsays, Lawyers are not above the law, andthe Home Minister says, Let them sue? TheDPM says, I dont know why theyre lodginga report with Suhakam. Did anybody say,We will check whether what the police didwas right or wrong?

If you were in the OCPDs position, whywould you care when those on top give youan invisible green light [to carry on]?Fadiah: These are virtually state-sanctioned actions.Murnie: That is our bigger frustration, toreceive this kind of response from thoseabove...Fadiah: Its not about saya hanyamengikut arahan, its not about followinginstructions, its not about not all police

in Washington DC in 2005, where she securedsecond place. Called to the Bar in 2007. HonorarySecretary of the Kuala Lumpur Legal Aid Centre,committee member of Abolish ISA Movement(GMI), member of Suara Rakyat Malaysia(Suaram), volunteer Tutor of Mentari VoluntaryTuition Project.

My parents decided to send me to religiousschool so that I could learn religion andacademic subjects at the same time. They

wanted diversity in their childrens educationas my older sister was not sent to a religiousschool. My parents believe that religion isall about moderation and that the religiouseducation that I learned from the religiousschools can be shared with my other siblingsand themselves. They have a considerableamount of trust in their children. They willexpress their opinions on certain matters, but atthe end of the day, we call the shots.Provenance: Both my mother and fatherare from Kedah. My father works in MudaAgricultural Development Authority (MADA). Mymother used to work in the same place as myfather but has retired. I grew up in a moderateworking class family. My paternal grandfatheris Malay of Hadhramaut origin and my paternalgrandmother is Malay of Siam origin. Mymaternal grandfather is Malay of Pattani originand my maternal grandmother is Malay ofSumatra origin.

Age 28, attendedSekolah RendahKebangsaan TamanSri Muda, Shah Alam,Sekolah MenengahAssunta, Petaling Jaya.Law graduate of theInternational IslamicUniversity, Malaysia.Project Head of LegalAwareness Committee,KL Legal Aid Centre,

Suaram secretariat member.

Provenance: My family background is veryboring, lah. Family living in USJ Subang *yawn*Father is working as project coordinator, motherpassed away, father re-married etc. My latematernal grandpa and grandma... Ive beentold that they were PRM (Parti Rakyat Malaysia)members. Btw most of them are now Umnomembers. My late paternal grandpa was fromIndonesia. I am keturunan Minang.

In 1998, in Form Five, I was in the sameschool as Nurul Izzah (Anwar) and... I think,(Tun Dr) Mahathirs foster daughter.

Weve saw everything happen beforeour eyes, all the Reformasi demonstrasi andeverything. And I could see a split between evenmy friends and in the school. On sports day,wed always invite Kak Wan, (Datin Seri) WanAzizah, and also (Datin Seri Dr) Siti Hasmah. Butafter Reformasi, everything gone.

And then when I entered UIA (International

Islamic University), I started writing for Tailerag,the Tan Sri Ahmad Ibrahim Legal Research Group(which was unrecognised by the university). Ihad my own column about students rights.

as Puspa said, but no-one knows aboutthem other than lawyers, though I think thegovernment is aware of the situation. Thatswhy we need to have the [police] complaintscommission as soon as possible.

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Fadiah and Murnie


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are bad, not all police are cruel. What is itabout? Its about state-sanction. The statesanctions what is happening: deaths incustody, abuses by the police... We have hadinquests conducted into deaths in custodybut nothing is done, nobody is prosecuted.The A-G does not prosecute.

NORMAL, WHAT

Would you all always feel this righteousabout the issues of justice or do youthink that theres a point whereyou decide to accept it, tacitly orunconsciously...(together, resolutely, shaking heads, aghast)Nooo...Fadiah: We get frustrated at times, becauseits so sad, what is happening, sometimesbefore your own eyes.Puspawati: Its a long struggle lah.Fadiah: We have to keep on going if there isto be anything good at the end of it all.Ravinder: When we (Ravinder and SuaraKeadilans Law Teck Hao) got to Taman Tun

(Dr Ismail police) station at three to fourin the morning, and we were put inside thelock-up, it was still okay lah [even though]I was a little bit numb from what hadhappened. By 9am, you start wondering,why am I not being brought before amagistrate? Why are there no lawyersoutside, who were there when we held inBrickfields? Then it starts to dawn on youthat no-one knows where you are.

At about 11, and I remembered it wasa Friday which means youre looking at alonger lunch hour for cops, you wonder,When are they going to produce me before amagistrate? If they do a remand hearing inthe lock-up, would anyone know? How are

they going to bail me out?Then you really get annoyed and think,

What on earth have I done to be here?Nothing. What are they so afraid of thatthey would arrest five young lawyers whowere there [as part of the legal process]? Atthat point, yeah, once you have that feeling Im sure all of us feel the same way whathave I done to deserve this? Its nearlyimpossible for that feeling to die down.

Syuhaini Safwan: Its very sad that they(the police) consider us as their enemy whenwere supposed to work together to ensurethat justice is done.

I remember when I was in my last yearof studies; for my Criminal ProcedureCode, we were supposed to interview theOCPD of Dang Wangi, I think his name wasZulkarnain. There was a big, big table, all theofficers were there.

And then we we asked him a fewquestions. At that time, the [DzaiddinCommission was enquiring into the need forthe IPCMC]. So we asked a few questions,such as on whether there is a need for CCTV

in the [interrogation] room so that peoplecan see what is happening in there. Andthey were making fun of the questions. Theywere not serious in actually reforming thesystem. I remember the last thing he said tous: Lawyer ini tahu nak lawan sahaja. Ingat,kami juga nak buat kerja.

I just want to say that we (the policeand the lawyers) are both doing our jobs.You want to do your job, I want to do myjob. The rules are there for the benefit ofeverybody [but] there is a mentality of, thisis ridiculous. I want to do it my way.

There seems to be an authoritarianmentality.Exactly. In fact they have the support of thepeople above. So I think that it s hard to saytherell be improvement.

Then it will be very difficult to changethe nature of the relationship andreform the police.The system will do that. I think we can never

change something so deeply rooted. But ifthere is a system, its okay if you dont likeme and I dont like you; we can actuallymonitor what you and I do. I dont askyou to like me. Im asking for fairness andprofessionalism, so that the public benefits,not my group, or your group. Were all justdoing our part, thats all.

Has anyone had a good experience withthe police?Fadiah: A lot! (cites an example from thePPSMI demonstrations)

Now suddenly, things are a bit differentbecause they are now heavily influenced

by political changes since the last generalelection. Its about the projection of powerand domination, because I think they realisethat people are losing more confidence thanever in the political impartiality of the police.

What happened to us is the result ofwhat is happening in Perak, and the arrest ofWong Chin Huat. Before this, we would havebeen seen as officers of the court coming tothe police station to represent any arrestedpersons without counsel.Ravinder: Even during the Hindraf trials,the relationship was not so bad. After thearrests at Batu Caves, we continued doingremand hearings until two in the morningwith the police. Now, its so different.

Fadiah: Now, they arrest you even ifthey have no grounds to charge you foran offence, just to detain you. If we haveviolated the law, charge us in court. I see itas an act of intimidation.Murnie: Its a clear misuse of power. Whatamounts to a reasonable belief that justifiesdenying someone access to legal aid counsel?We werent told, in our case maybe becausethey couldnt come up with an answer. Butagain, theres been no action taken against

Education: SekolahMenengah Tg PanglimaPerang Tg Muhammad,Kuantan, Pahang,International IslamicUniversity Malaysia(2004-2007), JPA scholar,champion mooter (likeFadiah).

Both my parentswere lecturers beforemy mother retired as

a school principal and my father joined theMinistry of Education. I was brought up in asheltered environment.

I attended different schools along the way,including religious school, when I was in Forms1 and 2.

My interest in law and issues of justicesystem and human rights started during theReformasi period in 1998, when I was still insecondary school. So after SPM, I determined formyself to read law and to become a lawyer.

Im in my first year of practice. I wasattached to Tenaganita for the Legal Aid

programme which was an eye opener aboutwhere our country stands in issues relatingto migrants, refugees and human rights, andhow our [legal] system works. To my surprise,I went for the Advanced Training conductedby the Legal Aid Centre and became part of thelegal aid team.

Education: SekolahSri Inai, MethodistCollege, University ofWales, Aberystwyth);BVC, Bar (University ofthe West Of England,Bristol, UWE), Certificateof Practice in General

Insurance (I was 16when I qualified).Chairman, Kuala LumpurLegal Aid Centre.

Provenance: I come from a through and throughPunjabi family, an only grandson. To my paternalgrandfather that was very important. My dadworks as a credit recovery agent (own business)and my mother is a property negotiator. Mymaternal grandfather was born in Malaysia,but his wife came from India. He was a moneylender, taxi driver and a man who did virtuallyanything to keep his family afloat; a very strictman. He had 10 children. He migrated to Canadain the early 1980s with the children who werenot married. I was fortunate to have known him.My paternal grandfather was from Ipoh, and mypaternal grandmother, from Kuching. Ive neverbeen there and thus dont really know muchabout her hometown.Key experiences: After Form 5 I worked with mydad doing debt collection for banks and financecompanies. There was NO beating or swearingat anyone. After eight months, I enrolled withMethodist College in Brickfields.

I insisted to go to a proper red brickuniversity in my final year as it was my oneand only chance in England/UK. I chose to goto the University of Wales, Aberystwyth (nowas Aberystwyth University). The same currentInspector-General of Police, Home Minister andPresident of the Malaysian Bar all attended thesame uni. How ironic?

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I worked for a Bangladeshi boss for a while,and was paid below minimum wage. Abroad,I experienced racism for the first time. I didnot see it done to someone else, I faced it! InAberystwyth, I used to work in this BangladeshiRestaurant and while everyone was partying ona Saturday night, I used to work until 12 or 1am,then pack back some delicious Indian cookingwhich was a god-send at the time (no Punjabimothers cooking for thousands of miles!)

While leaving work one day in my shirt and tie,carrying my dinner, two white boys tried to getinto a scrap with me. I distinctly remember bothof them saying, Go home! Go back to where youcame from! [Outnumbered] I had to turn theother way and leave. It made me so angry thatyou had to just accept it. This happened to methree times in the UK. To be honest, this wasprobably what finally made me realise whatforeigners in Malaysia must go through with thepolice, what refugees face on a weekly, if notdaily, basis. It takes character and determinationto face it and move on.

Mentors who continue to influence meare people like Mr Rajen Devaraj (with theBar Council now), Ms Stephanie Bastian (theexecutive director of the Legal Aid centre), andall my friends at the Legal Aid Centre and BarCouncil. Stephanie thought me at A-levels. BothRajen and Stephanie were arrested during theReformasi period and both were lecturing inMethodist College at the time. It was the firsttime I had ever heard of such a thing so closeto home. And wouldnt you know it, some tenyears later, I see them again.

But now I come to the relationship between theBar Council and other institutions like the police,UIA, Pembela... The Bar has been accused ofmany things.Ravinder: A public official said that the BarCouncil was predominantly made up of all...Fadiah: Indians.Ravinder: And that the Bar Council is racist.

This fellows amazing. Four Malay girls and onePunjabi guy are arrested, and the Bar Council isracist.Puspawati: And our clients...Murnie: Are Chinese!Ravinder: The Bar Council with NYLC Malaysiaactually released a statement: We have 19percent Indians, excluding Punjabis. Togetherwith Punjabis, its something like 23 percent.Were actually made up of predominantlyMalays. So these kind of people who [holdoffice], whos a very highly [elected] figure,telling us, Bar Council is racist.

(The Malaysian Bar is made up of morethan 12,600 lawyers from the Peninsula. About39 percent are Malays, 36 percent Chinese, 23percent Indians and 1-2 percent, other ethnicgroups. By comparison, with say, the policeforce, of which the ethnic composition is 78

percent Malay, 4 percent Indian, 2.5 percentChinese, and 15 percent other ethnic groups.Source: Malaysian Bar, Centre for Public PolicyStudies)As young Malay-Muslim women, you obviouslydont feel like youre working for the other side.Murnie: Were young Malaysians.

With the Bar Council perceived as being anti-Islam, anti-Malay, do you get flak for that?Fadiah: This happened back during theconference on conversion conference (in 2008,organised by the Bar Council, disrupted byUmno protestors) which I couldnt attend.People kept calling me and my friends wereasking, Please tell me whats really going on.They didnt jump to conclusions, [despite] themainstream newspapers. Then they said, thishas been blown out of proportion.

You have the jurisdiction of the syariah

court, and the civil court, and we have cases ofconversion, so what happens to the wife andthe kids? Dont you think its Islamic to discussit because they are affected? Dont you thinkthat justice in Islam also encompasses thesepeople? They might not be Muslims but still, youhave the duty to protect them. We might notagree on everything but we can sit down at thesame table as civil people and discuss it.Murnie: And this is what is lacking in ourcountry, the readiness to sit down fordiscussion.Fadiah: If you believe that youre doing the rightthing, and that right thing is for the benefitof the public, there must be a way for us todiscuss it. Do you need to agitate for supportand attack the other party?Puspawati: Some people have told us what wedid that night is part of fardhu kifayah.Fadiah: Fardhu kifayah (in the Quran) essentially

means that an act becomes mandatory uponthe failure of other people to do it. For example,if someone is being oppressed, and no-one is

doing something about it, it becomes mandatoryfor a you to do so, failing which you will commita grave sin.

So it is a religious obligation, it is imperativeupon us as Muslims to strive for human rights;and if someone arrested is denied their right tocounsel.Murnie: By just conducting interfaith dialogue,

the Bar Council is anti-Islam? You have tounderstand that we stay in Malaysia, whereMalays, Chinese, Indians and more areactually Malaysians. Non-Muslims might like tounderstand Islam and Islamic law too [and vice-versa].

Can you address issues of religion legally orby using concepts of human rights? Perhapsyou can the legal means for a resolution of aproblem but are unable to pronounce judgmentson peoples beliefs.Murnie:In Islam, its Allahs rights that comefirst before human rights. So there may be adifference between the concept of human rightsin Islam and liberal concepts of human rightsbecause we have Allah above humans. But tosay that you cannot engage others in discussionon human rights is not true.

There is a question of labels as well. The termhuman rights comes with Western baggage.Fadiah: It is very misleading to segregate rightsas Western or Islamic Take the CPC (CriminalProcedure Code), for example. I cannot find inthe Quran the part where you are entitled tomake a phone call when you are arrested, oreven in the Hadith. Does that mean that right isunIslamic? Its very sad when people talk aboutreligion day in, day out but dont understandit. The very basis of religion is something thatis protective of the interests of the people. It isIslam.Murnie: Its the concept of what is just [whichencompasses human rights]. Its not true thatthere is no such thing as human rights in Islam.Fadiah: The moment you are born, you haveevery right that can only be taken away by God.You have the right to life, to liberty by the very

creation of your being. So I dont understandwhy people preach, Human rights tak Islamic.That is so misleading of the religion.

Im a committee member of GMI (GabunganMansuh ISA) and we challenged Pewaris (a pro-Umno interest group) for saying that Wererepresenting Islam, and the ISA is halal.Murnie: Again, they use Islam...Fadiah: We challenged them to a debate.They didnt turn up. So we told them we havetraditions of the Prophet that say, it is betterto release some one who is actually guilty ifyou cannot prove that hes guilty. So if hessuspected of a crime, but you cannot prove it,its your religious obligation to release him.Thats the bedrock of the Western criminaljustice system.Fadiah: Yes, and nobody even bothers toactually find out about such matters. The level

of the Hadith is sahih, which means, the mostauthentic. Its authoritative. The hukum is wajib;youre obliged to follow it ...

them by the government. We all keep talkingabout reforming and regain public trust...

So what do you see for your professionin the future? Do you see any hope forsystemic reform, how things mightchange so we might move forward?Fadiah: I believe that if the governmentis given the mandate to rule by the people,

the people themselves will do somethingto actually remove the mandate. Only thepeople can decide ... What we can do aslawyers and citizens is to educate the publicabout their rights. We cannot change thepolice because they can just, you know, putus in the lock-up...Puspawati: Frankly speaking, I see no hopefor the older generation. We should startwith educating the younger generation toraise their awareness of issues of justice andhuman rights.

So, no hope for the older generationbecause they are too used to the oldways...

(together) Yes.Ravinder: And because we have people whoare arrested when they talk about politics.When I try to talk to my mum about politics,she says to me, like a typical Asian parent,Thats not my son. The day after we werereleased, I said to her, You thought all thiswhile it was impossible that such thingswould happen to you and your family, untilthis has come into the heart of your home,and arrests your only son and puts you in a


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position of fear for 14 hours, gets the wholefamily running helter-skelter. Now you knowwhat it feels like. Suddenly you realise, the

system can affect anyones life at any time.Puspawati: For example, my father. Healways thinks that there must be a goodreason behind all the governments policies.So: Ayah, harga minyak dah naik. Takpe,mungkin sebab ekonomi dah jatuh, jadidia naikkan harga minyak untuk balance-kan yang everything else. Ayah, kenapainterest PTPTN dah tinggi sangat? Dah naik4 percent. Yalah, sebab bukannya semuaorang bayar.Fadiah: Were too complacent living inour comfort zone. I want to know whatsgoing on with my money, with the tax-payers money, for example. Freedom ofinformation. We dont have it. I want to

know whats happening to Petronas, I wantto know. I want to have the full report giveit to me. But older people, older generations,they wont ask for it because, yeah maybe...they can go to work, live a normal life...Murnie:You see, while we have the JudicialAppointments Commission after the Lingamcase, but what sort of improvement that wecan do by having this judicial commissionbecause at the end of the day it is the primeminister who has the prerogative.Fadiah:Yeah. You have yeah you havean inquiry for Lingams tape, but you dontprosecute. At the end of the day it goesback to the A-G. Hes the most powerfulman in the

Murnie: In every aspect. The system, thepeople inside it, the education system,its all inter-related and intertwined, not[treated] in isolation, of course. So whenyoure talking about Malaysia as a whole andhow we go forward from today, a lot needsto be done to improve because you know,weve been in this situation for, what, 50-odd years. So its a challenge for the youngergeneration us for instance to actuallymake change in this country.

Fadiah: And its kind of terrifying to actuallyknow that, for example, if our country does

something that is internationally wrong forexample, if they do something for example,trafficking in persons, we can use that pointto actually lobby at the international arena,you know we need those courts, thosehuman rights courts, the UN look whatour country is doing, say something so wecan change something in our country. Butnow, they dont care. We just got listed as theworlds most unfriendliest place for refugeesand one of the top [countries] for traffickingin persons and that day they arrestedrefugees during the celebration of Aung SanSuu Kyis birthday.

They dont care what the world thinksabout us. No shame at all. I think its scary.

Puspawati: And Suhakam now cannot vote(at the UN Human Rights Council).Syuhaini: And here, you get condemnedfor what youre trying to do. We just got toknow that the law faculty at UIA (UniversitiIslam Antarabangsa or International IslamicUniversity) put up some articles and noticeson the board saying that we were used bysome people, by getting arrested.

Are you guys typical of UIA graduateswho want to right the wrongs they see?(the girls): Not really.Murnie: But were not radical, are we?(laughs)Puspawati: Dont look at me!

Fadiah: But back in uni, we werent thatactive. We didnt join student bodies andall that. It was like, I dont care, you guysare all politicking. But I started to have thisrevelation in my third year [when] I joinedthe Philip C Jessup Mooting Competition. Wehad to study public international law when Iwas in my third year. (eyes light up) I becamefamiliar with human rights and developed aninterest. It was like, wow! Human rights andall that, [chief] justice, you know.

Its sad universities sees this incidentas us being used by people. Are we thatmentally-challenged to not be able to makeour own decisions, you know. You know,they are accusing us of so many thingsRavinder: Im not from UIA.(laughter)

What is the reaction from your familiesto whats happened?Ravinder: For them its difficult to acceptit. Its of course the old fear of governmentauthority, that youll compromise yourfuture [livelihood] for a cause. Theresalways this fear of...Fadiah: What they might do to you.Ravinder: Or how they will make your lifedifficult [if you try to change things]. Thatswhat the older generation believes.Murnie: The police actually said to us thatwe had been blacklisted.

Theres a blacklist of lawyers?

Fadiah: After they took down ourstatements, we had to laugh about it becausethis whole episode was ridiculous. So theykept asking, Tak takut ke? Tak takut kemuda-muda buat macam ni? Kenapa buatmacam ni? Tak takut ke? The takut, takut,takut thing. Kenapa nak takut? Why?Because were doing the right thing.

This whole fear thing is quite strange,because on the face of it, were here nowin what seems to be a civil environment.You can sit down and have nice cakesand coffee...Puspawati: If you asked me ten yearsago, yeah, maybe I was quite takut of the

police lah. But now Ive lost all my respectfor them, [so] sudah tak takut dah (Im notafraid anymore).Fadiah: Its failing (this culture of fear).Ravinder: If they keep doing it this, theywill lose respect, all from their own actions.Murnie: Thats why I say our arrests wereactually a blessing in disguise because weactually experienced for ourselves what ourclients go through when they get arrested.Ravinder: And tell people. Tell peopleexactly what goes on. Because if you dontbelieve somebody who was caught onsuspicion of theft, if you dont believe them,we can tell you what really goes on.

I will admit that before this, I was a lot

like everyone else, so to speak. In the middleof legal aid duty, you start to realise that youcannot look at what the government is doingand say, Its nothing to do with me.

I now cannot look at breaches of humanrights in any other country and say, nothingto do with me.

Additional reporting by Marc Jitab

Ravin

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