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NB:Episode4–DRAG

Whatdoesdragmeanfornon-binaryfolk?Ifit’snotmendressedaswomenlip-sync’ingtoGloriaGaynor,whatisit?Whatcanyoulearnfromdragwhenyou’reexploringyourowngenderidentity?

AmroutakesCaitlinintotheworldofdragwithfellownon-binarydragartistsCrystaleRasmussenandChiyoGomes.MorganMPage,historybuffandhostoftranshistorypodcastOneFromTheVaults,revealstheradicalhistoryofdrag.

PresentedbyCaitlinBenedictandAmrouAl-Kadhi

ProducedbyCaitlinBenedict,ArlieAdlingtonandGeorgiaCatt

Transcript:

Caitlin-voiceover: Thisepisodecontainsstronglanguageadultcontentandasustainedattackonthememoryofeightiesindierock.Ifyou'velistenedtothefirstthreeepisodesofthispodcast,you'vemetAmrou.Wellnowit'stimetomeetGlamrou.HugeWig,evenhugerstilettos,andaverymemorablethong.

MC: Forthefirsttimeintwentyyearsforonenightonly.

Caitlin-voiceover: They'replayingwithgender.We'relookingforgendereuphoria.

[Clipfrom"Euphoria"byLoreenplaysthencutsout.]

Caitlin-voiceover: Yeah.I'msorry.Wecan'tusecommercialmusicinapodcast.Blametheinternationalcopyrightlawyers.You’regoingtohavetomakedowiththisoldclassicinstead.

Caitlin-voiceover: ThisisNB.

Amrou-voiceover: Non-binary

Caitlin-voiceover: Dismantlingthegenderbinary.

Amrou-voiceover: Onebigquestionatatime.

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Caitlin-voiceover: I'mCaitlinandI'mjustfiguringoutmygenderidentity.

Amrou-voiceover: I'mAmrouandI'vebeenoutforawhile,

Caitlin-voiceover: Amrouisgoingtosharewhatthey'velearned.

Amrou-voiceover: Andhopefullylearnsomenewthingstoo.

Caitlin-voiceover: Okay,let'sgo.

Amrou-voiceover: Thisispartfour.

Caitlin-voiceover: Drag.

Morgan: Dragactuallyisdeeplyentwinedwiththehistoryofthetranscommunity.Ifyouscratchthesurfaceofanydraghistoryatall,youturnupmostlytranspeople,

Caitlin-voiceover: Artist,writerandtranshistorian,MorganMPage.

Caitlin: SohowlonghaveyoubeenintheUKfor?

Morgan: Um,I'vebeenintheUKforoneyear.

Caitlin: Wow.Fresh…

Morgan: IarrivedNewYear'sDay,2018.Overnightflight.Verydramatic.Itwasahardtransition.Myfavouritekind.

Caitlin-voiceover: She'scometomeetusintheparktogiveusahistorylesson.Morganhasapodcast,which—

Morgan-voiceover: —bringsyouallofthedirt,gossipandglamourfromtranshistory.

Morgan: OneFromTheVaultsstartedthreeyearsagoaspartofacomplexrevengeplotagainstanex-boyfriend!IdecidedthatIwouldmakeitimpossibletoignoremyexistenceintheworldbybecomingverysuccessfulatsomething,so…

Amrou: It'sagoodstrategy.

Morgan: Butinreality,whereitstartedwasIusedtorunatransyouthgroupforfourandahalfyearsinToronto.AndoneofthethingsthatInoticedwasthatalotoftransyouthdon'tknowanythingabouttheirpast.Andinfact,manythoughtthatthereweren'tanytranspeopleinthepast,thattherewasnohistorytodrawon.AndwhenIwouldbringupcertainhistoricalfigures,certainstories,Icouldreallyseethemlightupandimaginethemselvesforthefirsttimelivinganykindoflifethattheywanted.AndIthinkthere'salotofpowerinthat.

Amrou: Isupposedragisverywelldocumentedintermsofavisualhistoryoflikenon-conforminggenderidentities.AndI'mwonderinghowmuchdraghistorieswere

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interestingtoyouwhenyouwerebeginningyourtransitionorforotherpeoplethatyou'vespokento?

Morgan: Yeah,definitely.Therearemanydragperformerswho-bothinthepresentandhistorically-livedwhatwemightunderstandastranslives,butwouldn'tnecessarilya)haveaccesstothatlanguageorb)um,identifywiththatasaprimaryidentificationnecessarily.OneofthemostlegendarydragbarsofalltimeisTheCarouselinFrance,whichinthe1950sand1960swaspopulatedalmostentirelybytranswomen.Nearlytoaone,nearlyeverysingleperformerwhoworkedtherewenttoCasablancaandhadsurgerywithDr.GeorgesBurou.AndthatincludespeoplelikeEngland'sownAprilAshley,andavarietyofotherpeople,Bambi…thatsortofthing.ThenyouhavepeoplelikeSylviaRiverafromtheStonewallRiots,um,whohelpedfoundStreetTransvestiteActionRevolutionaries,oneofthefirstdirectactiontransrightsgroups,whoisareallygoodcasestudybecausesheshowstheevolutionoflanguagearoundthetimeoftheStonewallRiots.Sheusedwordsforherself,likedragqueen,transvestiteandgaybroadly,notlikegaymen,justgaybroadly.Andovertimethatactuallychanged.Sobythetimeitwasthe90sandtransgenderwasawordthatwasbeingusedmorecommonly,sheusedthattorefertoherselfinanumberofinterviews.

Amrou: Thewaydragisrepresentedatthemoment,itfeelstomaybethepublicisit'sacisman'shistory,whentransidentitieshavereallybeenerasedfromkindofthedragidiompopculturally…

Morgan: Hmm,suchas,um,StorméDeLarveriewhowasablackdragkingwhowasbeingbeatenupbypoliceattheStonewallInnin1969whendragqueenscametotheirdefenceandstartedthestonewallriots.Sothishistory,itcan'tbetakenapart.It'sverydeeplyentwined.

Caitlin-voiceover: Andthereareheapsoftransandnon-binarydragperformersworkingnow-likeAmrou.

Caitlin: So,onourwaytoseeGlamrou,tomeetGlamrouforthefirsttime.I'mwithproducerArlie,um,andwe'regoingtogowatchsome,somedraghappenandwatchAmroubecomeGlamrou,whichI'mvery,veryexcitedabout.Theideaofthetranscommunityorthenon-binarycommunityandthedragcommunityhavinganyoverlapfeltquitealientomebefore,Iguess.ThereweresometranswomenonRuPaul'sDragRace,andthatkindofopenedupmymindinalotofways,butIalsoreallylikewhat,um,whatAmrouhasbeensaying,kindofthewholewaythroughthisprocess,abouthowauthenticperformingasGlamroufeelstothem.Um,andthatperhapstoanextentthere'sasmuchofaperformancegoingoninthestreetasthereisonstage.Yeah.SoIhaven'tactuallyseenthatmuchdrag.I'mlookingforwardtoseeing,uh,whatadragtroupethatistwofifthsnon-binarylookslikeandsoundslikeandallofthosesortofthings.AndnowweareplungingintoSohoproperonaThursdayeveningtogotoadragshow.It'spastmybedtimealready.

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Caitlin-voiceover: Outside,Imeetfellowdragartist,ChiyoGomesandweheaduptoaroomonthetopfloortogether.Inside,AmrouandTom-GlamrouandCrystal-aremid-transformation.

Tom: AndI'mjustusingthispressedpowdertocreatecontouronmyface.

Caitlin-voiceover: Thetableisstrewnwitheyeshadows,lipstickspowder,mascaraandheapsofglitter.Theyletussetupourmicsothatwecanhangoutwhilsttheywork.

Caitlin: Sodoyouwanttointroduceyourselftous,Chiyo?

Chiyo: Um,okay,cool.Um,mynameisChiyo.I'm22.Iworkasafreelancecabaretartist.Idroppedoutofunitododrag,soIhopeitworksout.

Caitlin: Tom,youwanttointroduceyourself?

Tom: Yeah,I'm,I'mTom,butbymoonlightasCrystalOBE.Um,yeah,I'madragperformerandawriter.

Amrou: Theyhaveabookcomingactually,calledDiaryofaDragQueen.I'vereadhalfofitandI'mliterallylike,Idropitlaughingsohardonthetube.It'sbeautiful.

Caitlin: Chiyo,howdidyougetintodrag?

Chiyo: Um,Igotintodragthoughsexworkactually.

Caitlin: Wow.

Chiyo: IwasatuniandIneededtomakeextramoneysoIstartedcominganddoingsexworkontheside.Andum,oneday,wellIwasgoingthroughagenderidentitycrisisandaracialidentitycrisistobehonest.AndIwasplayingaroundwithmakeupandIwaslike,wouldn'titbesofunnyifIjustlikelogintocamandeveryone'sexpectingthishighfemme,nakedshebangandI'mjustlike,"Hahalol,Ilooklikeaman.Whatyougonnado?"Soitwasa,anexperiment.ButbeforeIwouldlogininto,tothecammingsite,IwouldtakepicturesandputonInstagramandpeoplejustassumedthatIwasadragkingfromthosepicturesandstartedbookingmeforshowsandIwaslike"Oh!"

Caitlin: Greatscamofthecentury,welldone.Um,and,andhowdiditfeelstartingtoperform?

Chiyo: Um,it'sgonnasoundproperclichébutfeltlikeacalling,youknow,likeIwasstuckinthiscorporateworldandIwaslike,"Nah,I'mtooqueerforthis."

Caitlin: Doesthatresonateforyoutoo?

Tom: Imean,Iwasdoingdragsince…IwaswearingdressesathomesinceIwaslikesixand,butlikeshuttingmyselfinmyroomandwearingdressesandIhada

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reallygreatgrandmawhowould,like,makedressesforme,butmymumanddadwerereallynotokaywithit.

Caitlin: Sodoyoufeellikeforyou,uh,thekindofgenderquestionkindofaroseatthesametimeasstartingtodotododrag?Oraretheykindoftwoseparatethingsinyourhead?

Tom: Yeah,Imeantheydon'tfeellikedistinctpeopletome,meandCrystal.AndIalsofeellikeI,Iwasjustsoprivytosomuchgendernonconformitygrowingup.Youknow,whereI'mfromisareallyworkingclassplaceandthewomentherethatIspentallmytimewithweresupernonconforming.EventhoughtheywerealltotallywoulddefineaswomenandprobablythinkthatIwaschattingshitrightnow,butthere'ssomeoftheseamazing,likebrusque,like,hard,brilliantwomenwhohadallthesereallyoftenquitescarymenundertheirthumbsthattomewasseeinggendernonconformityandthat'swhatIwas.

Caitlin: Anddragbecomesanavenueforexpressingthat.

Tom: Orjustsomethingthatfeelsreallynatural.

Chiyo: Doyouknowwhat?IfeellikewhenIfirststarteddoingdrag,Ialwaysusedtoexplainitasbeingacopingmechanismforgenderdysphoriabecauseit'slikethisoutlet,um,beingtransandtryingtoexploreyourtransnessandcometotermswithyouridentity.Buthonestly,nowIdon'tthinkIresonatewithitinthesamewayanymorebecausewhatwasonceacopingmechanismisnowbecomingsortofatrigger.Um,Idon'tthinkthatwecantalkaboutgenderwithouttalkingaboutraceandallofmydragkingfriendsarepredominantlywhiteandtheyhaveBritishcitizenship.Andwewerethiscommunitywhoareallusingthiscopingmechanismto,toexpressourselves.ButgraduallyIwatchedthemalltakestepsintheirtransitionbecausetheycanbecausetheyhavethatprivilege.Andit'sweirdbecausemyheartissohappyforthem,andyou'resoproudandyou'relike,yes,slayinyourtransness,liveyourbestlife!Um,butthenit'sthatreminderthatIcan'tdothosethings.Andthenthat'swhereIthinkraceandgendercometoplayalot.

Caitlin: Talkusthroughtheprocess.Whathappensfirstwhenyou'regettingintodrag?

Amrou: Shave…Soyoulookabitlikeaprepubescentchicken…um,sprayfacejusttolikerefresh.

Caitlin: Whatyousprayingitwith?

Amrou: Prepandprime.AndthengluedowneyebrowswithPritstick.It'ssoritualistic.

Caitlin: Yeah,Icanreallyseethat.

Amrou: It'sliketwohoursofjustlikeyouandyourself.Itremindsmeofwhatitusedtobeliketopray.Ifinditquitespiritualgettingintodrag,it'slikeeverysingletime

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bytheendofitI'mquitelike,phew,IfeellikeI'mfloatingalittlebit.I'minterestedinwhatyourprocessisChiyobeforeyougetintodrag.

Chiyo: Uh,IalwaysstartwithmychestbecauseIwillneedtobindit.AndthenIwillprepmyface…prime…sick.Um,startcontouring,beardgoeslast,andthenfinaltape.

Amrou: Sowhat'sthefinaltape?

Chiyo: Kinesiologysportstape.Mychestisfullofopenskinwoundsandlikeblisters,andpeelingskin.Itmightonedayaffectmysurgery,butyoujustgottobearwiththetape.

Amrou: Really?

Chiyo: Sothat'swhyIneedtomassageandjustmakesurethatmychestiscool.

Tom: Youknow,tuckingorbindingorwearingheelsorwhateverorthatevenjustthelevelofperformanceandactivity,likethepainofgenderinaliteralsense,it'sreally,weusedtotalkaboutthisalot,itisreallydisplayedthroughtheprocessofgettingintodragandworkingindrag.Andalsothepainintermsofhowlittlesafetythereisininaworldwherewe'renotinaroomlikethis.Like,Iwashavingaconversationwithafriendtheotherdayabout,Iwasjustsayinghowit'sfunnyhowtherehasbeensuchanupindraganddragconversationandRuPaulandwhatloadsofpeoplewatchRuPaul.Andyouknow,there'sbeenabiggerdemandinsayinglikeforDenimthisyearthanever.Yeah.Butthemomentyoustepoutonthestreet,itremainsthesameifnotworse,Ifound.Idon'tevenstep,Iwouldn'treallystepoutsidethebuilding.Iwouldn'tstepoutsidethebuildingindrag,whichreallyfuckingbumsmeout.Itusedtobelike,"I'mthequeen"butit'sjustsomuchmorecomplicatedthanthatformenow.AndIthinkthatthat'sliterallygonehandinhandwithpeople'srisingawarenessofdrag,whichisinteresting.

Amrou: Whenwewerebothatuniandhad,youknow,thatkindofyouthful,like,theworldissogoodvibe,youknow,[we]somuchmoregendernonconformingjusteverysingledayandwearingdresseseveryday.SinceyougotpunchedandthenIhadthehatecrimehappentomeonabus,it'slike,youknow,youhavetodosomethingquitedysphoricandgooutinboyclothesallthetime.Ihatethat.Ihatethat-likeIonlyfeelsafedoingdraginatheatre.

Tom: Idon'tknowhowtopresentright.Idon'tknow.Istilldon'tknowhowtopresentrightforme.AndactuallythethingthatIclickintothemostoftenisjustwhatwillkeepmesafe.Soeveryoneelseismakingthatdecisionforme.It'sneverme.Homophobiahasbeenlikeahugepartofmylife.It'salwaysbeenabouthowI'vetransgressedmygenderthatpeoplecan'tcopewithbecausereallyI'mquitebigandIlookquitemale.ButbecauseI'vealwaysbeensounbelievablyeffeminate,it'saboutthatdisjunct.Soit'sjustinterestingtohearyou,thewayswe'veallbeenpunishedinpublicspaceisabouthowourgendersdon'tmatchwhat'sexpectedofourbodies.

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Caitlin: Howdoesperformingandperformingspecificallyinawaythat,uh,is,istalkingaboutgender,doesitgosomewaytokindofreclaimingthatforyou?Isitcomplicated?Isitdysphoricsometimes?Likehow,howdoesitfeel?

Chiyo: Whenit'sspecialspacesthatItrulyfeelareauthenticallyqueer,Idofeellikebybeingonthatstage,bybeingpresent,bybeinginmyform,inmybodyandstillbeingadamantthatIamtransnomatterwhatmybodylookslike,Idofeellikethatthereisownershipandthatisaformofreclaimingthetransidentity.Um,butthenIgotothesespacesthatIjust,Idon'tfeellikethey,they,theygetitortheywillappreciateitorthey…SometimesIquestionwhetherenergyshouldbespenttryingto,um,sharetruths.Likesometimes,youquestionthepointandinthosemoments,itfeelslikeaformofaggression.

Caitlin: Yeah,Ihearthat.

Tom: Ifeellikethat'sIthinkthat's,I,Ireallyfeelthattoo.ButIfeellikesometimesitbecomescomplicatedforme.Maybeit'sbecauseIhaveanormativity[sic]tomethatwhenIthinkabout,whenIthinkaboutmymumreallyandhowhomophobicshewasandhowshe'snotanymoreandhowshe'sactuallyquiteanunbelievablepersonandanally.

Amrou: Shereallyis.

Tom: Youknow,really,reallyis.

Amrou: She'sbeentothisshowmorethanIseemyownparents,period.

Tom: Youknow,butlikesayahomeinLancaster,whichiswhereI'mfrom,sheworksintheNHS,thehealthcareservicefordifferentlyabledpeople.Andshewasthefirstpersoninthewholenorthwesttocampaignforthehiringoftranspeopletotakecareof,um,youknow,othervulnerablepeople.Andthat'slike,youknow,myselfandalotofpeopleinthiscommunitypaylipservicetohowtranspeople,youknow,are,inpercentage-wise,havesomeofthehighestratesofunemployment.Butthereismymumwhodoesn'tnecessarilyknowtherightthings,butis,like,actuallydoingthatonthegroundoverthere.AndthatchangeisbecauseoftheenergyI'veputinandtheworkshe'sputintoo.Sothere's,there'smomentsandmaybethat'sbecauseshe'smymum.But,like,thosemomentswhereIfeellikethere'smaybevaluetothatenergy,andtothatlabourandtobelike,I'mgoingtochangeyourmindandI'mgoingtohopefullymakeyougooutanddosomethingaboutthis.But90%ofthetime,ifnotmore,it'snotthatway.Andactuallythat'sbecauseI'vesatandfoughtwithmymumforoveradecadeaboutthisstuff,andactuallythat'snotthesame.SoactuallyIkindoftakeallthatback.Butshoutouttomum!HeyMum!

Chiyo: Idohearthatthough,Idothinkthat,um,thereareaudienceswhoarelikeopentolistenandengagein,um,havediscussions.Ithinkiftheperformershouldgothroughthelabourthatcomeswithteachingthosestuff,theneveryoneinvolvedinthatproductionshouldmakesurethatperformersarebeingpaidright.Ortheycangethomesafe,thattheyarehappyandcomfortableinthat

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space,thattheycanpeeinatoiletbecauseit'sgenderneutral,youknow?SoIfeellikeit'sthesmallthings.

Amrou: Oftenthatdoesn'thappen.

Chiyo: Yeah.

Caitlin: I’llcometoseeyoulive.Pleasedoashowat,like,6pm.

Chiyo: Okay,cool.

Amrou: You'requitelike,"Cheersbutlike,Iwillthinkaboutthat."

Tom: CanIaskyouaquestion?

Caitlin: Yeah.

Tom: About-obviouslyifyou'renotcomfortable,don'tworryaboutit-butaboutcomingouttoyoudad,what,what'sthatprocesslookinglike?Andyouknow,howareyoufeelingaboutthat?Areyou,areyouokay?

Caitlin: Ifeelsortofthisprocessofmakingthispodcastsofarhasbeenquitetherapeuticforme.Justgettingallofmyideasaboutmyselfreallystraight.

Tom: Right.

Caitlin: And,andbecomingmorearticulateaboutwhatkindofpersonIamandhowIactually,uh,amgoingtoexpressmygenderandallofthelittlequestionsyouhaveaboutnotbeing,formebeing,um,assignedfemaleatbirth,notkindofbeingmasculineenoughornotpresentingas,askindofgenderfucky[sic]enoughallthetime.

Tom: Right.

Caitlin: Um,andyouknow,questionsaboutwhatI'mgoingtodowithmyselfinthefuture.Allofthosesortofthingsaround,youknow,hormonesandsurgeryandthethingsthateveryoneelseseemsreallyfixatedonbutaresosecondarytome,youknow,soit's,um,Ifeellikemyhead'sprettystraightnow.HopefullyevenbythetimeIgettoAustralia,it'llbeevenstraighter.

Tom: You'regoingtorecordit?

Caitlin: Yeah.

Tom: Doyouthinkitwillgookay?

Caitlin: Ithinkso.Myparentsareprettycool.

Tom: Alright.

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Caitlin: Ithinkthey'reprettycool.Butalsoit'sbeenreallyaffirmingformetolikespendtimewithAmrouandArlieandallthewonderfulguestswe'vehad,includingyoutwoofcourse.Um,becausebeingsurroundedbyotherqueerpeopleandum,peoplewhoareexpressingtransandnon-binaryidentitiesindifferentwaysand,andrealisingthatthereisnowaythatIwouldeversaytoanyonethatI'vemetthroughoutthisprocessthat,"You'renotdoingthisright,you'renottransenough,you'renotqueerenough,"anyofthosethings,reallystopsmesayingthosethingstomyself.

Caitlin-voiceover: SoweleaveAmrouandTomtotheendoftheirpreparationsandproducerArlieandIheadintoseetheshow.It'stimetomeetGlamrou.Theshowisamazing.Theblackpaintedwoodenboxofavenueistransformedbytheenergyoffiveincredibledragartists.Glamrouisarevelation.IseeAmrouinawholenewlightandI'malittleflustered.

Caitlin: Thatwassoincredible.AndI,youknow,Ihaven'tseenheapsofdrag.Thatwasawesome.Ifeltlike,IknowAmroubetter.I'vegotlotsofquestionsforthemabouthowitfeelstodothatandyouknowhowtheygotsoflexible!

Caitlin-voiceover: Aftertheshow,Igohomeanddosomeexperimentingofmyown.

Caitlin: SoI'mgoingtodosomedrag,gonnadosomebedroomdrag.Idon'tknowifthere'slikeaspecialterminthedragcommunityfor,like,dragthatyoujustdobecauseyouareboredandyouhadyoursoup…

Caitlin-voiceover: Butwheredoyoustart?Idecidedtotrydressingupasoneofmypersonalstyleiconsandultimateproblematicfaves,Morrissey.

Caitlin: AndIknowthatthatisreally,reallydisgraceful.Whatabunchofopinionsthatmanhas.

Caitlin-voiceover: Mybadtasteinalteregosaside,Iwanttoseehowitactuallyfeelstogetintodrag.

Caitlin: Haven'tgotmyglassesonsoit'sgoingtobeextragood.I'mmakingmyselfsomecheekbones.I'mshadingmytemples'causeI'vegotreallysomesunkentemples.Isthatgood?Idon'tknowifthat'sgood.Mightjustgonnalookdirty.It'spossible.Ohwow.Hey,tellyouwhat,darkeningaroundyourmouthreallydoesmakeyoulookmoremasculine.No,Ijustlookdirty.IshouldputabitofthisbrowneyeshadowlikeunderneathmyeyestomakemyselfseemlikeI'mtiredfromtalkingaboutmysadnessinthe1980s,youknow?Andtheotherthingtodoisbind…Bitofnudepodcastingnow…ifeveryoneisenjoyingthat.Okay,thisisreallyfun.

Ialwaysalwayskindofassumedthatdragisallaboutlikeputtingoncostumes,puttingoncharacters,doingstuffthat'skindantitheticaltowhoyouare.ButIknowforAmrou,andIknowforTomandIknowforChiyo,forallofthem,it'sallaboutconnectiontoyourself.It'saboutlikeritual.There'slikeaself-careaspecttoallofthis.Andthenthegettingonstageisaboutlikefindinganartisticwayto

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funnelyourauthenticity,tobe,like,funwithyourgender?That'sthething.It'sreallyfun.

Caitlin-voiceover: Inthenextepisode,we'llbetalkingabouthowitistoliveinyourbodyasanon-binaryperson.Andthere'salotofweighttothatandtothechoicesthatyouhavetomake.

Butit'snotalwayslikethat,sometimeswe'rejustallowedtoenjoyourselves.

Amrou-voiceover: You’vebeenlisteningtoNB.Presentedbythem,CaitlinBenedict.

Caitlin-voiceover: Andthem,AmrouAl-Kadhi.

Amrou-voiceover: YoucanfindusbothonTwitter.Caitlinis@caitlinbenny

Caitlin-voiceover: Amrouis@glamrou

Amrou-voiceover: NBwasproducedbyArlieAdlington,CaitlinBenedictandGeorgiaCatt.

Caitlin-voiceover: TheeditorwasAliceFeinstein.

Amrou-voiceover: ItwasaBBCRadioArtsproductionforBBCSounds.

Caitlin-voiceover: SubscribetoNB,thebestpodcast,onBBCSounds.

Amrou-voiceover: Thereareotherpodcastsontheretoo…

Caitlin-voiceover: Butthisisthebestone.

Transcriptends.