Multiple Documents - Moritz College of Law · 22 Exhibit 25 - Hakeem Dykes 23 Exhibit 26 - Alexander Ealy 24 Exhibit 27 - Armenta Eaton ... // PAGE 1. 40 Exhibit 47 - James Manley

Multiple DocumentsPart Description1 12 pages2 Exhibit 1 - Lue Alice Abercrombie3 Exhibit 2 - Victoria Banks4 Exhibit 3 - Sandra Beatty5 Exhibit 4 - Josue Berduo6 Exhibit 5- Charlotte Boyd-Malette7 Exhibit 6 - Carnell Brown8 Exhibit 8 - Doris Burke9 Exhibit 9 - Marc Burris10 Exhibit 10 - Emma Carr11 Exhibit 11 - Jason Chislom12 Exhibit 13 - Nadia Cohen13 Exhibit 14 - Carolyn Coleman14 Exhibit 15 - Helen Compton15 Exhibit 16 - Kate Cosner16 Exhibit 17 - Terrilin Cunningham17 Exhibit 20 - Allison Deters18 Exhibit 21 - Michael Gary Dickerson19 Exhibit 22 - Cherise Dill20 Exhibit 23 - Louis Duke21 Exhibit 24 - Sherry Durant22 Exhibit 25 - Hakeem Dykes23 Exhibit 26 - Alexander Ealy24 Exhibit 27 - Armenta Eaton25 Exhibit 29 - Gwendolyn Farrington26 Exhibit 30 - Kelvin Fisher27 Exhibit 31 - Ted Fitzgerald28 Exhibit 32 - Lynnette Garth29 Exhibit 33 - Elizabeth Gignac30 Exhibit 34 - Anna-Patrice Harris31 Exhibit 35 - Bishop Lonnie Gene Hatley32 Exhibit 36 - Rev. Jimmie Hawkins33 Exhibit 37 - Jorgen Jensen34 Exhibit 38 - Carlton Augustus Jordan, Jr.35 Exhibit 40 - Paul Kearns36 Exhibit 42 - William Kittrell37 Exhibit 44 - Brian LiVecchi38 Exhibit 45 - Nancy Lund39 Exhibit 46 - Quisha Mallette

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH CAROLINA et al v. STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA et al, Docket No. 1:13-cv-00660

© 2015 The Bureau of National Affairs, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Service // PAGE 1

http://www.bloomberglaw.com/ms/public/document/Terms_of_Service

40 Exhibit 47 - James Manley41 Exhibit 48 - George McCue42 Exhibit 49 - Bryan McGowan43 Exhibit 51 - Rev. John Mendez44 Exhibit 52 - Brian Miller45 Exhibit 53 - Becky Mock46 Exhibit 54 - Gregory Moss47 Exhibit 56 - Maria Palmer48 Exhibit 57 - Yolanda Paylor49 Exhibit 58 - Mary Perry50 Exhibit 59 - Tawanda Pitt51 Exhibit 60 - Marcia Pleasant52 Exhibit 61 - Cherie Poucher53 Exhibit 62 - Candi Rhinehart54 Exhibit 63 - Dean Roberts55 Exhibit 64 - Susan Schaffer56 Exhibit 66 - Gary Sims57 Exhibit 67 - Brandi Smith58 Exhibit 69 - Gerrick Suggs59 Exhibit 70 - Kelly Thomas60 Exhibit 71 - Marshall Tutor61 Exhibit 72 - Lynne Vernon-Feagans62 Exhibit 73 - Lynne Walter63 Exhibit 74 - Bessie Ward64 Exhibit 75 - Timothy Washington65 Exhibit 76 - Yvonne Washington66 Exhibit 78- Barbara Webb67 Exhibit 79 - Ebony West68 Exhibit 80 - Stephanie Williams69 Exhibit 81 - Malcolm Wilson




·1· · · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT· · · · · FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA·2

·3· ·NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE· · ·)· · ·OF THE NAACP, et al,· · · · · · · · )·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · Plaintiffs,· · · · · · · )·5· · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· ·1:13CV658· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·6· ·PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his· · · ·)· · ·official capacity as Governor of· · )·7· ·North Carolina, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·8· · · · · · · Defendants.· · · · · · · )· · ·____________________________________)·9· · ·LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF· · · · · ·)10· ·NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)11· · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)12· · ·and· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)13· ·LOUIS M. DUKE, et al.,· · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)14· · · · · · ·Plaintiffs-Intervenors,· ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)15· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV660· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )17· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)18· ·____________________________________)

19· ·UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,· · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)20· · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)21· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV861· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)22· ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)23· · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)· · ·____________________________________)24

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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-24 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 5

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Page 2·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME 1

·2· · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF GWENDOLYN FARRINGTON

·3· · · · · · · · · ·(Taken by Defendants)

·4· · · · · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina

·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·June 2, 2015

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10· ·Reported by:· Lynn A. Ruggiro,

· · · · · · · · · ·Court Reporter

11· · · · · · · · ·Notary Public

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Page 3·1· · · · · · · · · APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:

·2· ·Counsel for United States of America Plaintiffs:

·3· · · · · ·Avner Spapiro, Esquire

· · · · · · ·John Powers, Esquire

·4· · · · · ·U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

· · · · · · ·Civil Rights Division

·5· · · · · ·950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW

· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20530

·6· · · · · ·(202) 305-1840

· · · · · · ·[email protected]

·7· · · · · ·[email protected]

·8

·9· ·Counsel for the Defendants:

10· · · · · ·Alexander McC. Peters,

· · · · · · ·Senior Deputy Attorney General

11· · · · · ·N.C. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

· · · · · · ·114 W. Edenton Street

12· · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina· 27602-0629

· · · · · · ·(919) 716-6900

13· · · · · ·[email protected]

14· · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF GWENDOLYN FARRINGTON, taken by the

15· ·Defendants, at the Holiday Inn Express, 4912 South Miami

16· ·Boulevard, Durham, North Carolina, on the 2th day of June,

17· ·2015 at 12:57 p.m. before Lynn A. Ruggiro, Notary Public and

18· ·Shorthand Reporter.

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Page 4·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CONTENTS

·2· ·THE WITNESS: Gwendolyn Farrington· · · · · · ·EXAMINATION

·3· · · ·BY:· Mr. Peters· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5

·4

·5· · · · · · · · · · INDEX OF EXHIBITS

·6· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · PAGE

·7· ·Exhibit 1· · ·Provisional Voting Application· · · · ·8

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Page 5·1· · · · · · · · · GWENDOLYN FARRINGTON,

·2· · ·having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

·3· · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS

·4· · · · · ·BY MR. PETERS:

·5· · · · Q.· ·Good afternoon, Ms. Farrington.

·6· · · · A.· ·Good afternoon.

·7· · · · Q.· ·We met very briefly before the deposition

·8· ·started, but again I'm Alec Peters of the North

·9· ·Carolina Attorney General's Office.· I'm

10· ·representing the defendants in the action that's

11· ·been brought by the United States against the State

12· ·of North Carolina regarding various changes made in

13· ·2013 to voting laws.· And I understand they have

14· ·designated you as a potential witness in this case,

15· ·and that's why we're here for a deposition today.

16· · · · · · ·Can I ask you at the outset to state your

17· ·name and address for the record?

18· · · · A.· ·Gwendolyn Gail Farrington, 3006 Genlee

19· ·Drive, Durham, North Carolina, 27704.

20· · · · · · ·MR. SHAPIRO:· And while we're getting our

21· · · · names on the record, my name is Avner Shapiro

22· · · · and I'm representing the United States in this

23· · · · matter, which is a plaintiff, one of the

24· · · · plaintiffs.

25· · · · Q.· ·So Ms. Farrington am I correct, is it your



Page 6·1· ·understanding that you have been designated by the

·2· ·United States as a potential witness in the lawsuit

·3· ·that has been brought concerning voting laws?

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· ·What is your understanding of why you have

·6· ·been designated as a potential witness, what

·7· ·information do you have?

·8· · · · A.· ·The information that I have is I voted in

·9· ·2014 and my vote was not counted.

10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Let me -- can you tell me a little

11· ·bit more about that.· Let's start out, did you

12· ·vote -- when you say in 2014, are you talking about

13· ·the primary or the general election in November?

14· ·The primary Would have been in may.

15· · · · A.· ·I'm thinking it was May, I'm not sure.

16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

17· · · · A.· ·I think it was May.

18· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall whether it was -- did you go

19· ·to a polling place with the purpose of voting?

20· · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· ·Was it during what a lot of times is

22· ·called early voting or was it on election day

23· ·itself?

24· · · · A.· ·Election day.

25· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall where the polling place was?

Page 7·1· · · · A.· ·American Legion.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And where is that?

·3· · · · A.· ·That's on Dearborn Drive, on the corner of

·4· ·Dearborn and Old Oxford Highway.

·5· · · · Q.· ·In Durham?

·6· · · · A.· ·Durham, North Carolina.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And you're registered in Durham County to

·8· ·vote?

·9· · · · A.· ·I am.

10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if you can just tell me what

11· ·happened when you went to vote on that election day.

12· · · · A.· ·When I arrived at the American Legion, I

13· ·went to the table under the alphabet for my name.

14· ·The lady told me that I was not at my precinct, I

15· ·had to vote by provisional ballot.· I went to the

16· ·provisional table, received the information of how

17· ·to fill out the provisional ballot and to bring it

18· ·back once it was completed.

19· · · · Q.· ·And did you do that?

20· · · · A.· ·I did.

21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What happened after you brought

22· ·it -- completed the -- was it -- completed the

23· ·provisional ballot or completed an application to

24· ·vote provisional ballot?

25· · · · A.· ·No, I completed a provisional ballot.

Page 8·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what happened when you brought

·2· ·it back to the table?

·3· · · · A.· ·She filled out whatever paperwork it was

·4· ·that she was supposed to fill out, she put it in an

·5· ·envelope for mailing in provisional ballots and I

·6· ·received my sticker that I had voted.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· This is going to be Farrington 1.

·8· · · · · · ·(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT FARRINGTON NUMBER 1

·9· ·WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

10· · · · Q.· ·And Ms. Farrington, let me ask you to take

11· ·a look at that exhibit for a moment, please.· Can

12· ·you identify what this document is or do you

13· ·recognize this document?

14· · · · A.· ·This is the application for my provisional

15· ·ballot.

16· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Is that your signature on

17· ·there?

18· · · · A.· ·It is.

19· · · · Q.· ·And since it sounded like you weren't

20· ·quite sure whether this was the primary or the

21· ·general election, let me ask you to look at the date

22· ·next to your signature.

23· · · · A.· ·I see it.

24· · · · Q.· ·And does that refresh your recollection

25· ·about whether this was the primary in May or the

Page 9·1· ·general election in November?

·2· · · · A.· ·The general in November.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, I believe you said that when

·4· ·you approached the table and they checked your name,

·5· ·they said you were in the wrong precinct?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Is that correct?· And did anybody tell you

·8· ·what precinct you were supposed to -- or what

·9· ·polling place was the polling place for your

10· ·precinct?

11· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

12· · · · Q.· ·What did they tell you?

13· · · · A.· ·The new library on South Alston Avenue or

14· ·the Lutheran Church, I think it moved.

15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did anybody at the polling place,

16· ·the poll worker advise you that you could go to that

17· ·precinct to cast your ballot?

18· · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · Q.· ·And was it your choice to stay and vote

20· ·at, I think you said it was the American Legion?

21· · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · Q.· ·To stay there and vote?

23· · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·Why did you choose to do that instead of

25· ·going to the correct -- to your precinct?



Page 10·1· · · · A.· ·Because my precinct would have been closed

·2· ·by the time I got my children and got across town.

·3· · · · Q.· ·What time of day was it?

·4· · · · A.· ·It was after 6:00 p.m. in the evening.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Had you ever voted at the American

·6· ·Legion before?

·7· · · · A.· ·No.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Had you voted at the polling place for

·9· ·your precinct before?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·And was it -- when you voted there, was it

12· ·the library or had it already -- or is it the

13· ·Lutheran Church?

14· · · · A.· ·At that time, it was the Lutheran Church.

15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How far was that from the American

16· ·Legion, estimate?

17· · · · A.· ·At that time of day, anywhere from about

18· ·30 to 45 minutes in traffic.

19· · · · Q.· ·To drive there.· Okay.

20· · · · · · ·How was it that you came to go to the

21· ·American Legion as opposed to any other polling

22· ·place that day?

23· · · · A.· ·Because my place of employment is about

24· ·approximately four to five miles straight up the

25· ·road from the American Legion.

Page 11·1· · · · Q.· ·When you voted in the past, have you ever

·2· ·voted in a precinct other than your own on election

·3· ·day?

·4· · · · A.· ·Not that I can remember.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you have any understanding

·6· ·when -- on November 4th, about voting?· Did you

·7· ·have any understanding of whether you were allowed

·8· ·to vote in a precinct other than your own and have

·9· ·your vote counted?

10· · · · A.· ·My understanding was even if I was not at

11· ·my precinct, I'm a registered voter, I could go to

12· ·any voting poll.

13· · · · Q.· ·And what was that understanding based on?

14· · · · A.· ·That that was just my understanding of the

15· ·law, as long as I'm a registered voter, I could vote

16· ·at any precinct, because I'm on the registry.

17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you had voted in the past,

18· ·have you ever used what a lot of people call early

19· ·voting?

20· · · · A.· ·Yes.· And I need to make a correction, if

21· ·I may.

22· · · · Q.· ·Sure, please.

23· · · · A.· ·I have voted in another precinct, the One

24· ·Stop downtown, I took an entire group of kids with

25· ·me to register them to vote and it was early voting.

Page 12·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · A.· ·So yes, I have voted outside of my

·3· ·precinct before.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Right.· Do you have any understanding

·5· ·about whether for early voting, voting places are

·6· ·set up by precinct or whether -- in other words, for

·7· ·early voting, do you know whether there is a polling

·8· ·place for every precinct during early voting period?

·9· · · · A.· ·To my understanding, not by precinct but

10· ·they're just set up in various places.

11· · · · Q.· ·Right.· So --

12· · · · A.· ·Not specific to a precinct, no.

13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But do you have any understanding

14· ·that on election day there is a voting place for

15· ·each precinct?

16· · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you voted early voting and you

18· ·noted that that wasn't necessarily in your precinct,

19· ·when you have done that before.· Have you ever, on

20· ·election day, before 2014, have you ever voted in a

21· ·precinct that was not your own precinct that you

22· ·recall?

23· · · · A.· ·Not on election day, no.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How did you find out that -- you

25· ·said your vote was not counted.· How did you -- did

Page 13·1· ·you follow-up after election day to see whether your

·2· ·voted had been counted?

·3· · · · A.· ·No.

·4· · · · Q.· ·So what do you base your understanding

·5· ·that your vote was not counted on?

·6· · · · A.· ·I was contacted by -- I'm sorry, your last

·7· ·name again?

·8· · · · · · ·MR. SHAPIRO:· Mr. Shapiro.

·9· · · · A.· ·Mr. Shapiro, that according to state

10· ·records, my last vote was not counted.

11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that how you came to be a

12· ·witness in this case because you were contacted by

13· ·Mr. Shapiro?

14· · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Prior to being contacted by Mr.

16· ·Shapiro, were you aware of any changes that were

17· ·made to North Carolina's voting laws by the General

18· ·Assembly in 2013?

19· · · · A.· ·Only the voter ID.

20· · · · Q.· ·So you were aware that a voter ID --

21· · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · Q.· ·-- was going to be required, that's

23· ·correct?

24· · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you aware that prior to being



mosierms

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Page 14·1· ·contacted by Mr. Shapiro, that the same law that

·2· ·includes the voter ID requirement also included the

·3· ·provision that required that people vote in their

·4· ·own precincts on election day except in certain

·5· ·circumstances?

·6· · · · · · ·MR. SHAPIRO:· Objection, asked and

·7· · · · answered.

·8· · · · Q.· ·You may answer the question.

·9· · · · A.· ·No.

10· · · · Q.· ·You were not aware of that?

11· · · · A.· ·No.

12· · · · · · ·MR. PETERS:· Okay.· I think that's all

13· · · · I've got.

14· · · · · · ·MR. SHAPIRO:· No further questions.

15· · · · · · ·(THE WITNESS WAIVED SIGNATURE.)

16· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON THE DEPOSITION IS CONCLUDED AT

17· · · · 1:09 P.M.)

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Page 15·1· · · · · · · · · C E R T I F I C A T E

·2· · · · ·I, Lynn A. Ruggiro, Shorthand Reporter and Notary

·3· ·Public, do hereby certify that the above-named witness was

·4· ·duly sworn by my prior to the taking of the foregoing

·5· ·deposition; and that said deposition was taken and

·6· ·transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing

·7· ·pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

·8· ·transcription of the testimony of the witness.

·9· · · · I do further certify that the persons were present as

10· ·stated in the caption.

11· · · · I do further certify that I am not of counsel for or in

12· ·the employment of any of the parties to this action, nor am

13· ·I interested in the results of this action.

14· · · ·IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name

15· ·this 4th day of June, 2015.

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18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _____________________________

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Lynn A. Ruggiro

19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Notary Public No. 20030830270

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KELVIN FISHER May 6, 2015

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242

1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH CAROLINA STATE )

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

v. )Civil Action No. 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the Governor)

of North Carolina, et al., )

)

Defendants. )

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )


)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, )


)


et al., )

)

Defendants. )

DEPOSITION OF KELVIN FISHER

__________________________________________________

1:01 P.M.

WEDNESDAY, MAY 6, 2015

__________________________________________________

POYNER SPRUILL, LLP

301 FAYETTEVILLE STREET, SUITE 1900

RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA

By: Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M

2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2

3 For the North Carolina State Conference of the NAACP:4 ADVANCEMENT PROJECT

BY: DONITA JUDGE5 PENDA D. HAIR VIA TELEPHONE

JASMYN RICHARDSON VIA TELEPHONE6 1220 L Street NW, Suite 850

Washington, D.C. 200057 (202)728-9557

[email protected]

KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP9 BY: MADELYN MORRIS VIA TELEPHONE

601 Lexington Avenue10 New York, New York 10022

(212)446-468011 [email protected] For the State of North Carolina and SBOE:13 OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.

BY: MICHAEL D. MCKNIGHT14 4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100

Raleigh, North Carolina 2760915 (919)787-9700

[email protected]

The Videographer: Trae Howerton17

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3

1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION2

Examinations Page3

By Ms. Judge . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 84

By Mr. McKnight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 195

By Ms. Judge . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 366

By Mr. McKnight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 387

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1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS2

Exhibit Description Page3

1 2014 Voting & Election Day *174 Irregularities Incident Report Form5 2 North Carolina Voter Registration 22

Application - Kelvin Fisher6

3 NC Public Voter Information - 277 Kelvin Rodney Fisher8

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14 * Exhibit was marked prior to going on the record and

was first discussed on the above-referenced page.15

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2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 STIPULATIONS

2 It is hereby stipulated and agreed between the

3 parties to this action, through their respective

4 counsel of record:

5 1. That the deposition of Kelvin Fisher may be

6 taken on May 6, 2015, at 1:01 p.m. in Raleigh, NC

7 before Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M.

8 2. That the deposition shall be taken and used

9 as permitted by the applicable Federal Rules of Civil

10 Procedure.

11 3. That any objections of any party hereto as

12 to notice of the taking of said deposition or as to

13 the time or place thereof, or as to the competency of

14 the person before whom the same shall be taken, are

15 deemed to have been met.

16 4. That objections to questions and motions to

17 strike answers need not be made during the taking of

18 this deposition, but may be made for the first time

19 during the progress of the trial of this case, or at

20 any pretrial hearing held before any judge of

21 competent jurisdiction for the purpose of ruling

22 thereon, or any other hearing at which said

23 deposition shall be used, except that objections to

24 the form of the question must be made at the time

25

6

1 such question is asked or objection as to the form of

2 the question is waived.

3 5. That the witness reserves the right to read

4 and sign the transcript prior to it being sealed.

5 6. That the sealed original of the transcript

6 shall be mailed First Class Postage Paid or

7 hand-delivered to the party taking the deposition for

8 preservation and delivery to the Court if and when

9 necessary.

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1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on the

2 record. Today's date is May the 6th, 2015. The

3 time on the video monitor is 1:01 p.m. This is

4 the video deposition of Kelvin Fisher, taken by

5 the plaintiffs in the matter of the North

6 Carolina State Conference of the NAACP, et al.,

7 versus Patrick Lloyd McCrory, in his official

8 capacity as Governor of North Carolina, et al.,

9 in the United States District Court for the

10 Middle District of North Carolina, case number

11 1:13-CV-65 and all related matters. Will

12 counsel please identify themselves for the

13 record, and then our court reporter will swear

14 in the witness.

15 MS. JUDGE: Good afternoon. I'm --

16 I'm Donita Judge from Advancement Project, and I

17 represent the North Carolina NAACP, plaintiffs.

18 MR. MCKNIGHT: I'm -- what, are we

19 going to do the folks on the phone next?

20 MS. JUDGE: If -- if you could state

21 your appearance, please, on -- on the phone.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. This is

23 Jasmine Richardson from Advancement Project,

24 counsel for the North Carolina NAACP, plaintiff.

25 MS. MORRIS: Madelyn Morris, Kirkland

8

1 & Ellis, also on behalf of the North Carolina

2 State Conference of the NAACP, plaintiffs.

3 THE COURT REPORTER: If you'll place

4 your left hand on the --

5 MS. HAIR: This is Penda Hair, also on

6 behalf of the North Carolina NAACP, plaintiff,

7 and I'm with Advancement Project.

8 MR. MCKNIGHT: And my name is Michael

9 McKnight, and I -- and I'm an attorney

10 representing the State Board of Elections,

11 defendants in this matter.

12 KELVIN FISHER,

13 having been first sworn or affirmed by the

14 Certified Verbatim Reporter and Notary Public

15 to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing

16 but the truth, testified as follows:

17 EXAMINATION

18 BY MS. JUDGE:

19 Q. Good afternoon, again, Mr. Fisher. We're here

20 today to take your trial deposition because you

21 have indicated that you have no transportation,

22 and for this reason, you are unable to attend

23 the upcoming trial in July. Is that your -- is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 Q. Okay. And, Mr. Fisher, have you ever been

2 deposed before?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Well, there's a few rules that we call

5 the rules of the road that I'd like to go over

6 with you, and if you have any questions about

7 these, you know, we can -- we can talk about

8 them. The first thing I want you to understand,

9 that you are here to give your testimony un- --

10 under oath, which you just did.

11 The process will be that I will ask you

12 questions and you are to give answers truthfully

13 and to the best of your ability. Please listen

14 to the entire question before you respond. You

15 may think you know where I'm going with it, but

16 if I can just finish the entire question before

17 you respond, that would really help -- help me

18 and it would also help the court reporter who's

19 taking -- taking notes.

20 Also, please give a verbal response, yes,

21 no, I don't know, rather than shaking or nodding

22 your head because the court reporter actually

23 cannot pick up those type of -- of signs, so if

24 you could just give me, you know, a -- a verbal

25 response, please. And if you don't know or you

10

1 don't remember, just say so. It's okay if you

2 don't know the answer to a question. Don't

3 guess, please.

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. And if you -- if you don't understand a question

6 that I'm asking, please ask me to rephrase the

7 question. I'll be more than happy to do that.

8 And let me know at any time if you need a break.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Okay. Do you have any questions?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Fisher, please state your full

13 name.

14 A. Kelvin Rodney Fisher.

15 Q. Where were you born?

16 A. New Haven, Connecticut.

17 Q. How long have you lived in North Carolina?

18 A. Ten years now.

19 Q. Where do you currently live?

20 A. 905 South East Street.

21 Q. How long have you lived there?

22 A. A little over a year.

23 Q. Where did you live before moving to your current

24 address?

25 A. I was staying at the men's shelter on South

11

1 Wilmington Street.

2 Q. And is that in Raleigh?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you believe that you are currently registered

5 to vote?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In which county are you registered to vote?

8 A. Wake.

9 Q. Do you recall when you registered to vote at

10 your current address?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know -- do you recall how you registered

13 to vote at --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- your current address?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And how -- how was that?

18 A. Some recruiters -- volunteers was coming by the

19 neighborhood and I was on the porch, and they

20 asked me was I registered and I told them no, so

21 I filled out the form.

22 Q. Do you recall when that was?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. Mr. Fisher, are you currently employed?

25 A. Yes.

12

1 Q. Where do you work?

2 A. At Hampton Inn on Glenwood Avenue.

3 Q. Is that in Raleigh?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. How long have you worked there?

6 A. Six months.

7 Q. And what type of work do you do there?

8 A. Houseman.

9 Q. And what does a houseman do?

10 A. Clean and maintain the building.

11 Q. Okay. And how many workdays a week do you work?

12 A. Five.

13 Q. How many hours a week do you work,

14 approximately?

15 A. Thirty-four.

16 Q. Do you have the same schedule each week?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How far in advance do you know your schedule?

19 A. Only two days.

20 Q. Have you held any other positions at the Hampton

21 Inn in Raleigh?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what was that position?

24 A. Cook.

25 Q. How many days a week did you work in that




4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 position?

2 A. Six.

3 Q. Were you working as a cook at Hampton Inn in

4 Raleigh in November 2014?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Fisher, we're going to now move

7 to your voting history prior to 2014. I'm going

8 to be asking questions about your -- your

9 registration and voting prior to this last

10 election, okay?

11 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

12 Q. So when did you first register to vote in North

13 Carolina?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. Do you recall voting in any presidential

16 elections?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recall whether you voted in 2008?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall receiving a voter registration

21 card after you registered to vote in 2008?

22 A. No, I don't.

23 Q. Do you recall whether -- where you voted in

24 2008?

25 A. The elementary school on Fayetteville Street.

14

1 Q. Thank you. Do you recall whether you voted a

2 regular or provisional ballot in 2008?


4 Q. Okay. If I were to -- to tell you that your

5 voting -- voting history indicated that in 2008

6 you voted a provisional ballot, would that help

7 you to recall voting a provisional ballot in

8 2008?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. Okay. So do you recall voting in 2012?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you recall where you voted in 2012?

13 A. At the magnet elementary school.

14 Q. And do you -- do you -- to your knowledge, do

15 you recall whether you voted a regular or a

16 provisional ballot?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. So I'm going to move now to the reason

19 that we're here today, and we will be discussing

20 House Bill 589. This is the law that was signed

21 in effect by Governor McCrory and the law that

22 we are challenging. The North Carolina NAACP,

23 as well as other parties, we are challenging

24 this -- this ca- -- this law in federal court.

25 So I'm going to talk to you a bit about your

15

1 November 2014 voting experience -- voting

2 experience. Do you recall where you voted on

3 election day in November -- on November 4th,

4 2014?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And where did you vote?

7 A. The Chavis Community Center.

8 Q. Did you believe that the Chavis Community Center

9 was the place where you were supposed to vote?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Why did you believe that the Chavis Community

12 Center was where you should vote?

13 A. Well, they had early voting there, and it's

14 right around -- it's a block and a half from my

15 house.

16 Q. Okay. And had you voted there previously?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you recall what time you arrived at -- at the

19 polling place?

20 A. Approximately 10:00, 10:30.

21 Q. Did you work that day?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What happened when you arrived at the Chavis

24 Community Center?

25 A. I was told that I was supposed to vote at

16

1 another facility, and then that my vote, it may

2 not count, but since I was there and I didn't

3 have any means to get to the other facility, I

4 decided to vote right there.

5 Q. Do you recall what the name of -- what the name

6 of the location that -- where they told you that

7 you should be voting?

8 A. Fullerton Street is all I remember.

9 Q. And do you know where Fullerton Street is in --

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. And so why did you ultimately decide to

12 vote a provisional ballot at Chavis Community

13 Center?

14 A. I just wanted to -- to vote to have my voice

15 heard some kind of way.

16 Q. Okay. And when you voted, after you voted, were

17 you provided any information for you to

18 determine whether your provisional ballot was --

19 was -- was counted?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you speak with anyone on election day

22 outside the precinct about your voting

23 experience?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you.


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5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17

1 MS. JUDGE: I would like to introduce

2 an exhibit, please. This will be Exhibit 1 for

3 North Carolina. This is for you. This is for

4 you.

5 Q. I'd like you to take a few minutes and look over

6 this document, and when you're ready, just let

7 me know.

8 A. I'm ready.

9 Q. Mr. Fisher, do you recognize this document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what is this document?

12 A. An incident report.

13 Q. And who completed -- who filled out this

14 document?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. And when did you complete this document?

17 A. After I left the voting booth on my way home.

18 Q. And is there any -- any writing on the document

19 that is not your -- any language on here that

20 you did not write?

21 A. Just on the bottom.

22 Q. And what is that language? If you would read

23 it, please.

24 A. "Said -- said he voted provisional."

25 Q. Thank you. And after you completed this

18

1 document, what did you do with this document?

2 A. I handed it back to the lady.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you.

4 MR. MCKNIGHT: Now, Ms. Judge, I don't

5 see a Bates number at the bottom of this

6 document. Is this a document that was produced

7 to the defendants in this matter?

8 MS. JUDGE: Yes, it was produced --

9 MR. MCKNIGHT: Okay.

10 MS. JUDGE: -- to the defendant.

11 MR. MCKNIGHT: It's just this one is

12 just not Bates numbered?

13 MS. JUDGE: Yes. No, it do- -- not

14 Bates numbered, but it was produced.

15 MR. MCKNIGHT: Okay. All right.

16 MS. JUDGE: Okay?

17 MR. MCKNIGHT: Thank you.

18 MS. JUDGE: You're welcome.

19 BY MS. JUDGE:

20 Q. After you left the precinct -- well, before you

21 left the precinct, you indicated that you were

22 not provided any information in terms of how to

23 follow up?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. So were -- were you able to follow up to

19

1 determine whether your provisional ballot was

2 counted in any way?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And, again, why -- why did you not follow up?

5 A. I had -- I didn't think -- well, I didn't know

6 to.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Didn't know to.

9 Q. So do you know whether your provisional ballot

10 was counted in 2012 -- 2014?

11 A. No.

12 MS. JUDGE: No further questions.

13 EXAMINATION

14 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fisher. Again, my name is

16 Michael McKnight and I represent the State Board

17 of Elections, defendants in this matter. And

18 the purpose of my questions today is -- is to

19 delve a little deeper into what -- the questions

20 that Ms. Judge has asked you and -- and to find

21 out more about your experiences in voting here

22 in North Carolina. So, as Ms. Judge has said,

23 this is not a memory test, so if I ask you

24 something that you don't remember, that -- that

25 -- that -- that's fine, and you can -- you can

20

1 simply tell me that. And -- and also, I may ask

2 you questions about communications that you've

3 had with Ms. Judge or other lawyers for the

4 NAACP, and in asking those questions, please

5 understand that I'm not -- I don't mean to

6 suggest or imply that your speaking with them is

7 inappropriate in any way. It's entirely

8 appropriate. But as part of this process, we

9 get to ask questions about that.

10 A. I understand.

11 Q. And just for the record, you and I have not

12 spoken before today; is that right?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And, Mr. Fisher, you said your full name was

15 Kelvin Rodney Fisher; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And have you ever gone by any other names,

18 Mr. Fisher?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And your current address, I think you said it

21 was 905 South East Street here in Raleigh; is

22 that right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Is there an apartment or a house number or

25 anything like that that goes with that?




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 A. One.

2 Q. Number 1?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So your full address would be 905 South East

5 Street, Number 1 in Raleigh?

6 A. Yeah, you can say that.

7 Q. Okay. Okay. And -- and you said --

8 A. I live in Apartment 1.

9 Q. I see. I see. And I think you said you lived

10 at that address about a year?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And before you lived at that address, you said

13 you lived at the -- at the men's shelter; is

14 that right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And was that on Wilmington Street?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And how long did you live at that address?

19 A. I'd say maybe six months.

20 Q. Okay. And were you ever registered to vote at

21 -- at that -- the men's shelter on Wilmington

22 Street?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And before that, where -- where did you live?

25 A. Numerous places.

22

1 Q. Okay. And -- and do you remember immediately

2 before the men's shelter where you lived?

3 A I can't recall that.

4 Q. Well, Mr. Fisher, I wanted to hand you an

5 exhibit here that I'm going mark. I'm going to

6 hand a copy to Ms. Judge. And I've marked this

7 as Exhibit 2.

8 MR. MCKNIGHT: And, Ms. Judge, if it's

9 alright with you, we've been calling these,

10 like, Fisher Exhibit 2, the witness name and the

11 exhibit and then restarting with each deposition

12 just to keep track of them, so I don't know if

13 that'll be alright for this one or not, but

14 that's what I'm going to label this one.

15 MS. JUDGE: Okay. That's fine.

16 MR. MCKNIGHT: Okay. Fisher Exhibit

17 2.

18 (WHEREUPON, Exhibit 2 was marked for

19 identification.)

20 Q. Mr. Fisher, I wanted to give you a minute to

21 look at this document and let me know when

22 you're ready for some questions.

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. And, Mr. Fisher, is this the voter registration

25 application that you have filled most recently?

23

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And is this your handwriting on this

3 document?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Okay. And you said you -- you registered to

6 vote when a -- when a volunteer or somebody at

7 least came -- or came to your door?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Are you -- I think you said you were

10 sitting on your porch; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And they asked you if you wanted to vote.

13 And -- and is this your signature at the bottom

14 of this document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And it -- it appears to be dated 9/18,

17 and then I'm having a little trouble with the

18 date there. Do -- do you know what date that

19 you wrote there?

20 A. I see 9/8.

21 Q. Well, it -- what was the year? I can't -- is

22 that --

23 A. Oh, '15.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. No. No. '13. I don't have my glasses, but it

24

1 looks -- I can't see that.

2 Q. Okay. And I see that there's a stamp at the top

3 that says, "September 29, 2014."

4 A. I see that.

5 Q. So I -- I -- I would think this could not have

6 been completed in 2015. Would you agree with

7 that?

8 A. I would agree with that.

9 Q. Okay. But you -- you don't remember whether it

10 was 2013 or 2014 that you might have filled this

11 out?

12 A. September -- it had to be '14.

13 Q. All right. And after you filled out this form,

14 what -- what did you do with it?

15 A. I submitted it to the -- the volunteer.

16 Q. All right. And did you say what organization

17 that volunteer was with?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And so you gave this form to the volunteer. And

22 did you ever hear anything from the Board of

23 Elections af- -- after you submitted this form

24 to the volunteer?

25 A. No.




7 (Pages 25 to 28)

25

1 Q. And so do you remember whether you received a

2 voter registration card in the mail after

3 filling out this form?

4 A. I did get one of those.

5 Q. You did get one?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And -- and did you read the voter

8 registration card?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what did it say on it?

11 A. Well, exactly what you want to know?

12 Q. Well --

13 A. You want the address or something?

14 Q. Yeah, that's a -- that's a -- that's a --

15 A. Well --

16 Q. -- that's a fair question. For example, did the

17 voter registration card have your address on it?

18 A. No, it didn't have my address on it.

19 Q. Well, when it was ma- -- I assume you got it in

20 the mail, didn't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Well, did the ca- -- did it have your address on

23 it some -- did it come in an envelope that had

24 your address on it?

25 A. Yes.

26

1 Q. Okay. And did -- do you remember whether or

2 not the voter registration card also had a

3 polling place listed on it?

4 A. Yes, it did.

5 Q. Okay. And do you remember what polling place

6 was listed on that voter registration --

7 A. It said Fullerton Street.

8 Q. Fullerton Street Elementary School?

9 A. I believe.

10 Q. Because you've mentioned a magnet elementary

11 school earlier.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And is that what you're referring to when

14 you say a magnet elementary school?

15 A. Well, yes, because --

16 MS. JUDGE: Objection.

17 Mischaracterization of the testimony that was

18 given earlier by -- by the defendant. I don't

19 believe that he ever said "magnet." I think he

20 said a school -- he -- at this elementary

21 school.

22 MR. MCKNIGHT: Well, I -- I disagree,

23 Ms. Judge. I -- I have in my notes that he

24 said, "magnet elementary school." I'd be happy

25 to have the court reporter take a look back at

27

1 the transcript, but we can a- -- simply ask the

2 witness whether he mentioned a magnet elementary

3 school.

4 A. I don't know if I mentioned it, but that's what

5 it was.

6 Q. Okay. So --

7 MS. JUDGE: Thank you.

8 Q. -- you're -- you're familiar with a Fuller

9 Magnet Elementary School; is that right?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. What -- what magnet elementary school are

12 -- are you --

13 A. This is on Fayetteville Street.

14 Q. Okay. All right. Well, I want to give you a --

15 another exhibit here and I want you to take a

16 look at this one. We'll call this Fisher

17 Exhibit 3.

18 (WHEREUPON, Exhibit 3 was marked for

19 identification.)

20 MR. MCKNIGHT: I'll hand you this one.

21 MS. JUDGE: Thank you.

22 Q. And, Mr. Fisher, this is probably not a document

23 that you've seen before. Thi- -- I'll represent

24 to you that this is a document that I pulled off

25 of the State Board of Elections Web site that

28

1 has public information available about voters on

2 it, and this is the information that comes up

3 when your name is typed in. And so what I'll --

4 A. I understand.

5 Q. What I want to ask you about is, is -- is it --

6 is the information at the top here correct? Is

7 this your correct name and that street address?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And I see underneath this there's a

10 polling place.

11 A. I see that.

12 Q. Do you see that? And it says, "Fuller GT Magnet

13 Elementary School." Do you see that?

14 A. I see that.

15 Q. And it says, "806 Calloway Drive" in Raleigh.

16 A. I see.

17 Q. And, now, is that the address that you believe

18 is on your voter registration card?

19 A. I would say -- have to say yes.

20 Q. Okay. And do you know where Calloway Drive is?

21 A. Have no idea. Never heard of Calloway Drive.

22 Q. Okay. And -- and you mentioned a school on --

23 you -- on Fayetteville Street; is that right?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. What is the name of that school?


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8 (Pages 29 to 32)

29

1 A. I don't know the name of that. The reason I

2 know that it's a magnet -- it's a magnet school,

3 because I used to live on Fayetteville Street

4 and the landlord describing how to get there.

5 And she said, "Well, it's right by a magnet

6 school," so that's how I know it's a magnet

7 school.

8 Q. And you believe you voted at a magnet school

9 previously?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you believe that was in 2012; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, when you went to vote at -- at Chavis last

14 year in 2014 and they told you your ballot may

15 not count and you would need to vote somewhere

16 else, I think you mentioned a -- a Fullerton. I

17 think you said Fullerton Street Elemen- --

18 A. But that was a mistake. I'm thinking Fullerton

19 -- that was on the voter's card.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. And that -- that's all I know, but the Calloway

22 Drive, I wouldn't -- I'm not familiar with that.

23 But I guess I got mixed up.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. It said Fullerton -- obviously, it's Fullerton

30

1 Magnet Elementary School.

2 Q. All right. And do -- do you believe that

3 Fullerton Magnet Elementary School was where

4 they told you to vote at Chavis when you

5 presented to vote in November of 2014?

6 A. I believe so.

7 Q. Okay. And did you ask anyone at the poll,

8 "Where is that?"

9 A. Well, yeah. The lady was -- she was telling me

10 where it was.

11 Q. Did she give you directions?

12 A. I don't recall that.

13 Q. Did she give you an address?

14 A. Well, yeah.

15 Q. And is there another way that she described to

16 you where Fullerton Magnet Elementary School

17 was?

18 A. I don't remember.

19 Q. All right. And after she told you where it was,

20 at that point why did you decide not to go and

21 -- and vote at Fullerton Elementary School?

22 A. Well, I asked her was it on the bus line and she

23 told me -- actually, I don't even remember that

24 either, but I know I didn't have any

25 transportation to get there and no bus fare

31

1 either.

2 Q. And do you have any idea how far away that

3 school would be from your house?

4 A. No, but I was told it wasn't in walking

5 distance, not from her, but other people that

6 was there.

7 Q. And -- and who was that?

8 A. I don't recall his name.

9 Q. Did they work for the Board of Elections?

10 A. No. No. It was just somebody in line.

11 Q. And I think you testified that you -- you

12 currently work on the Hampton Inn -- at the

13 Hampton Inn on Glenwood Avenue in Raleigh; is

14 that right?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. And how far away is that from your house?

17 A. It would be a half hour, 40 minutes.

18 Q. And a half hour, 40 minutes traveling how?

19 A. That -- that would be by walking. I catch the

20 bus to work.

21 Q. Okay. Do you ride the bus every day to work?

22 A. Yes. It -- well, I catch the bus half the way.

23 Then I -- I catch the bus downtown and I walk

24 from downtown.

25 Q. So in order to catch the bus for work, you have

32

1 to walk downtown to the bus station?

2 A. No, not completely to the bus station.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. It's the R line. It's a free bus ride. I catch

5 that on Wilmington Street.

6 Q. All right.

7 A. And that takes me to the Hampton.

8 Q. Okay. So you -- you ride the R line the entire

9 time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And did you investigate whether the

12 information you were told about Fullerton

13 Elementary not being on the bus line was

14 correct?

15 A. No. Well, yeah. I -- I inquired to a gentleman

16 that was standing in line. I asked him did he

17 know where it was. Well, I asked him was it in

18 walking distance. He said, "No, it's not in

19 walking distance."

20 Q. Well, did -- did you check to see if -- if the

21 bus could take you there some way?

22 A. I had no money for the bus.

23 Q. Okay. So even if the bus could have taken you

24 there, you -- you -- you couldn't have taken the

25 bus?


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9 (Pages 33 to 36)

33

1 A. I couldn't get the bus.

2 Q. How do you normally pay for your bus fare when

3 you work, when you go to work?

4 A. It's a free ride, the R line.

5 Q. So you think you would've had to pay a fare if

6 you had taken the bus to Fullerton Elementary

7 School?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in terms of distance walking, how -- how far

10 do you think for you physically would be too far

11 of a distance to walk to go vote?

12 A. I'm not familiar with distances like that. I'll

13 put it like this: Maybe an half hour, my back

14 gives out.

15 Q. And, Mr. Fisher, in 2014 did you ever attempt to

16 vote early?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. And why was that?

19 A. Well, it being around the corner -- actually, I

20 don't re- -- I don't recall why I never made it

21 to the early voting. I don't recall that.

22 Q. Okay. So in 2014, though, did they have early

23 voting at the Chavis --

24 A. Yes, they did.

25 Q. -- Center? Okay. And that's -- that's where

34

1 you -- you went to vote on election day; --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. -- is that right? Okay. And -- and do you

4 think that there was a time during the early

5 voting period that you -- you could have gone to

6 vote at Chavis Community Center?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. And but you don't know sitting here today

9 why you didn't do that?

10 A. Well, I know I had up until the final day of

11 voting, so I had no idea that my vote wouldn't

12 count if I would've went on the last day. And

13 as far as the reason I didn't go early, I don't

14 -- don't recall that, but I definitely was going

15 to make it before voting was cancelled.

16 Q. All right. And -- and, Mr. Fisher, how did you

17 first learn of this lawsuit that you're here

18 testifying about today as a witness?

19 A. I was contacted by someone on the phone.

20 Q. Okay. And was -- was that someone with the

21 Advancement Project or the North Carolina NAACP,

22 or do you remember?

23 A. Advancement Project.

24 Q. Okay. And do you remember who contacted you?

25 A. Ms. Judge.

35

1 Q. And do you remember when she contacted you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And do you remember how many times you spoke

4 with Ms. Judge?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you speak with anybody other than Ms. Judge

7 about this lawsuit?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And do you remember what Ms. Judge told you

10 about the lawsuit?

11 A. Well, ex- -- explained to me that -- that my

12 vote wasn't counted and about other people where

13 their votes was probably wasn't counted or

14 didn't -- just wasn't registered.

15 Q. And anything else you can recall that --

16 A. No.

17 Q. -- about your conversation with Ms. Judge?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. And did Ms. Judge ever send you any

20 e-mails or other documents --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- related to the lawsuit?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay.

25 MR. MCKNIGHT: I don't think I have

36

1 any further questions for Mr. Fisher at this

2 time.

3 MS. JUDGE: Can we go off the record?

4 We'd like to take a break, please.

5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the

6 record. The time is 1:30 p.m.

7 (Brief Recess: 1:30 p.m. to 1:37 p.m.)

8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the

9 record. The time is 1:37 p.m.

10 EXAMINATION

11 BY MS. JUDGE:

12 Q. Mr. Fisher, you indicated that you had received

13 your voter registration card and that it had the

14 Fuller Elementary -- Magnet Elementary School on

15 that voter registration card. If you knew that

16 that was your -- where you should vote, why did

17 you choose to go to and vote at the Chavis

18 Community Center?

19 A. Well, the Chavis Community Center is a block

20 away from my house. I can practically see that

21 from my porch, and I had no indication that the

22 vote wouldn't count if I voted at -- at the

23 community center.

24 Q. And -- thank you. And how did you fill out --

25 how did you feel when you realized that your


lawl0624

Highlight

MosierMS

Highlight



10 (Pages 37 to 40)

37

1 vote didn't count after the November 2014

2 election?

3 A. Well, I was upset about that.

4 Q. Mr. Fisher, Mr. McKnight asked you about

5 conversations that you've had with counsel,

6 particularly me. Mr. Fisher, why did you agree

7 to tell your story about your November 2014

8 voting experience?

9 A. I thought it was important to voice my opinion

10 and it was -- just seemed unjust, probably my

11 vote not get counted. And they're going to send

12 me somewhere off to vote where -- the voting --

13 the voting building is a block away from my

14 house. You know, I -- I just didn't understand

15 that. And it didn't seem fair at all, so I

16 figured everybody vote should be counted

17 regardless of where you live at as long as they

18 know who you are. You can sign a signature.

19 They -- they can tell where you are. So it just

20 didn't make sense to me, so I wanted to help in

21 any way if I could.

22 Q. Mr. Fisher, do you believe it's important to

23 vote?

24 A. Definitely.

25 Q. And why do you believe it's important to vote?

38

1 A. Well, if you want your voice to be heard and

2 don't like certain laws, the only way that it

3 can be changed, if you -- to vote the people

4 that you -- the representatives that you feel

5 would do the best for you. And so many people

6 have died for that privilege, just to vote, so I

7 don't think it should be taken lightly.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. JUDGE: No further questions.

10 MR. MCKNIGHT: Mr. Fisher, just --

11 just a quick follow-up.

12 EXAMINATION

13 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

14 Q. We -- we took a break a moment ago; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And during that break, did you discuss this case

18 with Ms. Judge at all?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You didn't discuss any aspect of this case --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- with Ms. Judge at a break?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the

39

1 video deposition of Kelvin Fisher. The time

2 going off the record is 1:40 p.m.

3 [SIGNATURE RESERVED]

4 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 1:40 P.M.]

5

6

7

8

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10

11

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21

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24

25

40

1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T

2

3 I, KELVIN FISHER, declare under the

4 penalties of perjury under the State of North

5 Carolina that I have read the foregoing 39 pages,

6 which contain a correct transcription of answers made

7 by me to the questions therein recorded, with the

8 exception(s) and/or addition(s) reflected on the

9 correction sheet attached hereto, if any.

10 Signed this the day of , 2015.

11

12

13 KELVIN FISHER

14

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18

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22

23

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25




11 (Pages 41 to 42)

41

1 E R R A T A S H E E T

2 Case Name: North Carolina State Conference of the

3 NAACP, et al., v. Patrick Lloyd McCrory,

4 et al.; League of Women Voters of North

5 Carolina, et al. v. The State of North

6 Carolina, et al.; United States of

7 America v. The State of North Carolina,

8 et al.

9 Witness Name: Kelvin Fisher

10 Deposition Date: May 6, 2015

11

12 Page/Line Reads Should Read

13 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

14 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

15 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

16 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

17 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

18 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

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20 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

21 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

22 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

23 ____/____|___________________|_______________________

24

25 Signature Date

42

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA) ) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF JOHNSTON )3

I, TAMMY JOHNSON, Court Reporter and4

Notary Public, the officer before whom the5

foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby6

certify that the witness(es) whose testimony7

appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly sworn8

by me; that the testimony of said witness(es) were9

taken by me to the best of my ability and10

thereafter transcribed under my supervision; and11

that the foregoing pages, inclusive, constitute a12

true and accurate transcription of the testimony of13

the witness(es).14

I do further certify that I am neither15

counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the16

parties to this action, and further, that I am not17

a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel18

employed by the parties thereof, nor financially or19

otherwise interested in the outcome of said action.20

This the 18th day of May 2015.21

22

Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M23 Notary Public #2001156008024

25


TED FITZGERALD March 3, 2015


1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1



NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE )

OF THE NAACP, )

et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the )

Governor of North Carolina, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________)

________________________________

)

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH )

CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660

)


et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________)

________________________________

)


)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861

)


et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________)

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF TED FITZGERALD

TAKEN BY THE PLAINTIFFS

2

1 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF TED FITZGERALD

2 TAKEN BY THE PLAINTIFFS

3

4 -------------------------------------------------------

5 10:06 A.M.

6 TUESDAY, MARCH 3, 2015

7 -------------------------------------------------------

8 OGLETREE DEAKINS NASH SMOAK & STEWART

9 4208 SIX FORKS ROAD

10 SUITE 1100

11 RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA

12

13

14

15 Reported in Stenotype by

Sophie Brock, RPR, CRR

16 Transcript produced by computer-aided transcription

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2 Counsel for Plaintiffs United States of America:3 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

BY: CATHERINE MEZA, ESQ.4 PATRICK M. HOLKINS, ESQ.

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.5 Room 7161-NWB

Washington, D.C. 200056 Telephone: (202) 305-0132

Fax: (202) 307-39617 Email: [email protected]

Counsel for Plaintiffs League of Women Voters:9

SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE10 BY: ANITA EARLS, ESQ.

1415 West Highway 5411 Suite 101

Durham, North Carolina 2770712 Telephone: (919) 323-3380


Counsel for Plaintiffs NAACP:15

KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP16 BY: MADELYN A. MORRIS, ESQ.

601 Lexington Avenue17 New York, New York 10022

Telephone: (212) 446-468018 Fax: (212) 446-6460

Email: [email protected]

20 Counsel for Plaintiff-IntervenorsLeague of Women Voters:

21

PERKINS COIE, LLP22 BY: ELISABETH C. FROST, ESQ.

(Via Speakerphone)23 700 Thirteenth St., N.W.

Suite 60024 Washington, D.C. 20005-3960

Telephone: (202) 654-620025 Email: [email protected]

4

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)2 Counsel for Defendants State of North Carolina and

Members of the State Board of Elections:3

NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE4 BY: KATHERINE A. MURPHY, ESQ.

ALEXANDER M.C. PETERS, ESQ.5 114 W. Edenton Street

Raleigh, North Carolina 27603-10136 Telephone: (919) 716-6900


[email protected]

9 OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.

10 BY: PHILLIP J. STRACH, ESQ. MICHAEL D. McKNIGHT, ESQ.

11 4208 Six Forks Road Suite 1100

12 Raleigh, North Carolina 27609 Telephone: (919) 787-9700

13 Fax: (919) 783-9412 Email: [email protected]

14 [email protected]

NORTH CAROLINA STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS16 BY: BRIAN LiVECCHI, ESQ.

441 North Harrington Street17 Raleigh, North Carolina 27603

Telephone: (919) 715-918818 Fax: (919) 715-0135

Email: [email protected]

20 Reported By:21 DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS

AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHERS22 BY: SOPHIE BROCK, RPR, CRR

BRAD SMITH, Videographer23 4208 Six Forks Road

Suite 100024 Raleigh, North Carolina 27609

(919) 649-999825 [email protected]




2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS2 PAGE3 BY MS. MEZA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10

BY MS. EARLS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1134 BY MS. FROST . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1325

6 INDEX OF EXHIBITS7 NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED8 Exhibit 257 Defendants' Objections . . . . . . .14

and Responses to The9 United States' Third Set

of Interrogatories No. 1210 and No. 1411 Exhibit 258 SBE00598872 to . . . . . . . . . . .31

SBE00598879: Email chain12 with subject "Photo ID

Poll Materials - Final13 Version," plus

attachments14

Exhibit 259 SBE00124196 to . . . . . . . . . . .4915 SBE00124200: Email chain

with subject "Handling16 Photo ID Requirements at

Voting Sites & Absentee17 Training"18 Exhibit 260 SBE00600021 to . . . . . . . . . . .58

SBE00600023: Email dated19 August 27, 2014, from

Greg Michalek to Ted20 Fitzgerald with subject

"MoU," plus attachment21


with subject "Interesting23 budget question from Polk

County BOE"24

25

6

1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS (Continued)2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED3 Exhibit 262 SBE00035449: Email dated . . . . . .66

September 2, 2014, from4 Ted Fitzgerald to

Veronica Degraffenreid,5 with subject "Poll Voter

ID PPP," plus attachments6

Exhibit 263 SBE00995135 to . . . . . . . . . . .757 SBE00995136: Email dated

January 5, 2015, from Ted8 Fitzgerald to Brian

LiVecchi, with subject9 "Mailing Letter Final for

approval," plus10 attachment11 Exhibit 264 SBE00594800 to . . . . . . . . . . .79

SBE00594801: Email chain12 with subject "No ID List"13 Exhibit 265 SBE00984003 to . . . . . . . . . . .85

SBE00984004: Email chain14 with subject "Summary of

Data Analytics Efforts"15


with subject "New No-ID17 Race Stats"18 Exhibit 267 SBE00035682: Email chain . . . . . .96

with subject "[ETL - DMV19 Free Voter ID Counts

Export - Weekly]"20

Exhibit 268 SBE00594731 to . . . . . . . . . . 10721 SBE00594736: Email chain

with subject "Reasonable22 Resemblance Standard,"

plus attached applicable23 statutes24

25

7

1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS (Continued)2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED3 Exhibit 269 SBE00599175 to . . . . . . . . . . 111

SBE00599176: Email chain4 with subject "New

Question for DMV"5

Exhibit 270 SBE00129396 to . . . . . . . . . . 1176 SBE00129397: Voter

Registration Guide7


with subject "Who has no9 DMV ID in NC," plus

attached information10

Exhibit 272 SBE00596373 to . . . . . . . . . . 12011 SBE00596385: Email with

subject "Demographics all12 in one," plus attachment

titled "Demographics 307K13 All-in-one"14 Exhibit 273 SBE00599089: Email from . . . . . . 121

Joshua Lawson with15 subject "Demographic

Stats: 291k," plus16 attachment17 Exhibit 274 5-slide PowerPoint . . . . . . . . 123

presentation showing18 demographics of 307,655

NC registered voters19 without NCID20 Exhibit 275 PowerPoint presentation . . . . . . 123

showing acceptable forms21 of NC voter

identification22


with subject "Voter ID24 Question"25

8

1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS (Continued)2 NUMBER DESCRIPTION MARKED3 Exhibit 277 SBE00116576 to . . . . . . . . . . 127

SBE00116577: Email chain4 with subject "Voter ID

Poll Material - Final5 Version - 2nd try Part 1

of 2"6


with subject "Voters8 without DMV ID"9 Exhibit 279 SBE00125681 to . . . . . . . . . . 130

SBE00125685: Email chain10 with subject "Voter moves

within county versus11 between counties,"

including table comparing12 options for voters in

different situations13

Exhibit 280 Job Posting for Voter . . . . . . . 13314 Outreach Specialist

Elections Specialist I15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at

2 10:06 a.m.

3 Today's date is March 3rd, 2015, and this is

4 the videotaped deposition of Mr. Ted Fitzgerald, taken

5 in the matter of North Carolina State Conference of

6 the NAACP, et al. v. Patrick Lloyd McCrory, et al.,

7 League of Women Voters of North Carolina, et al., v.

8 the State of North Carolina, et al., and the United

9 States of America v. The State of North Carolina, et

10 al., in the United States District Court for the

11 Middle District of North Carolina.

12 Would counsel please now introduce

13 themselves, and then our court reporter will swear in

14 the witness.

15 MS. MEZA: Good morning, Mr. Fitzgerald.

16 My name is Catherine Meza. I'm counsel for the United

17 States.

18 MR. HOLKINS: I'm Patrick Holkins, also

19 counsel for the United States.

20 MS. EARLS: I'm Anita Earls.

21 I represent of League of Women Voters.

22 MS. MURPHY: Katherine Murphy, North

23 Carolina Department of Justice, representing

24 Defendants.

25 MR. PETERS: Alexander Peters, North

10

1 Carolina Department of Justice, representing the

2 Defendants except for Governor McCrory.

3 MR. LIVECCHI: Brian LiVecchi, North

4 Carolina State Board of Elections.

5 MR. STRACH: Phil Strach, Ogletree

6 Deakins, representing the Defendants.

7 MR. PETERS: Lis, it's your turn.

8 MS. FROST: Okay. Thanks.

9 And on the phone, Elisabeth Frost of Perkins

10 Coie, representing the Duke Plaintiff-Intervenors.

11 MS. MEZA: Okay. Good morning again --

12 THE COURT REPORTER: If I could just --

13 MS. MEZA: Oh, sorry.

14 TED FITZGERALD,

15 having first been duly sworn/affirmed, was examined

16 and testified as follows:

17 EXAMINATION

18 BY MS. MEZA:

19 Q. Okay, Mr. Fitzgerald. Have you ever been

20 deposed before?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And when was that?

23 A. 2007/2008. Somewhere in there.

24 Q. It's just that one time?

25 A. Yes.

11

1 Q. And what was the nature of that case?

2 A. I was representing an organization of which

3 I was the executive director. The organization was

4 being sued in a civil suit.

5 Q. Okay. So you're likely familiar with some of

6 these rules, but I'm just going to go over a few

7 ground rules for today.

8 I will be asking questions and you will be

9 providing answers, and for -- it's important that you

10 answer the question verbally so that the court

11 reporter can capture your answer.

12 Also, it's important to make sure that

13 I finish the question before you begin your answer,

14 again so the court reporter can capture both your --

15 my question and your answer.

16 Also, if there is a question that you do not

17 understand or do you not hear, please let me know and

18 I can rephrase or restate the question.

19 And if, at any point, you would like to take

20 a break, you can just let me know and we can do so.

21 I only ask that you -- if there's a question pending,

22 that you complete your answer before you do that.

23 And you understand that the testimony you're

24 providing today is under oath?

25 A. Yes.

12

1 Q. Is there any reason that you think you may

2 not be able to provide me with answers to my questions

3 that are truthful, accurate, and complete today?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Did you understand those instructions?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. So I'm going to ask a few preliminary

8 questions about your background and what you did to

9 prepare for today's deposition.

10 So you said you have been deposed before.

11 Have you ever testified in court before?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. And have you ever personally been a

14 party to lawsuit?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And what did you do to prepare for today's

17 deposition?

18 A. I met with the attorneys that are present

19 here, except for Mr. Strach, yesterday.

20 Q. And that would be Ms. Murphy, Mr. Peters, and

21 Mr. LiVecchi?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And there was one other.

25 Q. Do you recall his or her name?




4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 A. Tom Farr.

2 Q. Okay. And did you review any documents in

3 preparation for today's deposition?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what documents did you review?

6 A. I reviewed a portion of a -- I believe it was

7 an interrogatory.

8 Q. Okay. Did you review any emails to prepare

9 for today?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you discuss today's deposition with

12 anyone else other than the attorneys?

13 A. Just my wife.

14 Q. Okay. And did you bring any notes or

15 documents with you today?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. And you said you did see -- you

18 mentioned that you had seen interrogatories. Have you

19 seen any of the other requests that the United States

20 have served on the State for documents or

21 interrogatories?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Were you asked to conduct a search of

24 your files or email documents at any point?

25 A. Yes.

14

1 Q. And when was that?

2 A. I don't know the exact date. Several months

3 ago, I believe.

4 Q. And did that include a search of both

5 electronic files and paper files?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you turn over both electronic

8 documents -- email -- and paper files?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay.

11 (EXHIBIT 257 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)

12 Q. Okay, Mr. Fitzgerald. I'm going to give you

13 a moment to review the document that the court

14 reporter just handed you.

15 MS. MURPHY: Sorry, is that number 251?

16 MS. MEZA: It's Exhibit 257.

17 MS. MURPHY: 257. Thank you.

18 BY MS. MEZA:

19 Q. Does the -- actually, I want to turn to

20 page 6. And does the information included in response

21 to the United States Interrogatory 14 accurately

22 reflect all the tasks that have been undertaken as

23 part of the State Board of Elections voter ID outreach

24 and education efforts?

25 A. Yes.

15

1 Q. So that's accurate to date?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. We're going to be referring back

4 to this document throughout the day.

5 I'm just going to go ahead and ask you some

6 questions about your background.

7 When did you graduate from high school?

8 A. 1977.

9 Q. Okay. In North -- from North Carolina?

10 A North Carolina high school?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And did you attend college?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where?

15 A. North Carolina State University.

16 Q. Okay. And did you graduate?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And what was your degree in?

19 A. Bachelor of arts in speech communications.

20 Q. And do you have any graduate level education?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And from what university or what institution?

23 A. I have a -- from Central Michigan

24 University -- master's degree in health care

25 administration.

16

1 Q. Okay. And you're currently employed by the

2 North Carolina State Board of Elections?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how long have you worked at the State

5 Board?

6 A. Since July of last year.

7 Q. And what is your current position?

8 A. Elections Specialist I.

9 Q. And that's the only position you've held

10 since starting in July of 2014?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What are your responsibilities as an election

13 specialist?

14 A. I oversee the activities of the Voter

15 Outreach Team, which consists of three positions: of

16 Elections Specialist I -- I need to correct -- I'm

17 Elections Specialist II.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. I supervise three other positions who are

20 Election Specialists 1, who work on the Voter Outreach

21 Team and the Board of Elections. The -- I -- I also

22 work collaboratively with the rest of the Voter

23 Outreach Team.

24 Q. And what specific responsibilities do you

25 have as part of the team?




5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17

1 A. Our responsibility is to create a mechanism

2 to inform and provide education to the public on the

3 requirements for House Bill 589, and to assist voters

4 who do not have a photo ID for the purpose of voting

5 in obtaining a photo ID.

6 Q. And what have you done to fulfill those

7 requirements?

8 A. We have put together a number of programs and

9 activities that are designed to reach out to people

10 who do not have photo IDs, and to help identify people

11 who do not have photo IDs, and to provide information

12 to the general public.

13 Q. And is your position as an Elections

14 Specialist II -- is that a term position? Meaning,

15 does that have an end date at this point?

16 A. It is a time-limited position.

17 Q. And for how long is it supposed to last?

18 A. It ends on December 31st of 2016.

19 Q. Okay.

20 Prior to working for the State Board of

21 Elections, where were you employed?

22 A. Immediately prior to, I was doing consulting

23 work for Community Care of North Carolina.

24 Q. Okay. And how long did you do that?

25 A. Four months.

18

1 Q. Okay. And what sort of responsibilities did

2 you have as a consultant?

3 A. I assisted their vice president of

4 governmental affairs in his duties.

5 Q. And prior to that position, what positions

6 have you held?

7 A. I held, prior to that, several short-term,

8 part-time positions. One, I was legislative assistant

9 for Representative David Lewis while his legislative

10 assistant was out with surgery.

11 Q. Okay. And when did that -- when did you hold

12 that position as a legislative assistant?

13 A. That was in 2013, from -- a five-week period

14 beginning in March.

15 Q. Okay. And what did you do as his legislative

16 assistant?

17 A. I answered the phones.

18 Q. Okay. And what sort of phone calls came in?

19 You simply answered them and referred them to the

20 appropriate person? Or --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay.

23 MS. MURPHY: Say "yes" or "no" out loud.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes.

25

19

1 BY MS. MEZA:

2 Q. So prior to working with the State Board of

3 Elections, have you had any experience in election

4 administration?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Any experience with election law?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. So you mentioned House Bill 589;

9 so you're familiar with the bill?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the provisions of the bill?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did you first hear about the bill that

14 eventually became Session Law 2013-381? Do you

15 recall?

16 A. I do not recall exactly when.

17 Q. What is your understanding of the early

18 voting provision of House Bill 589?

19 A. Could you explain more specifically which one

20 you're referring to?

21 Q. There's a provision in House Bill 589 that

22 has to do with early voting. If you're familiar with

23 it, if you could describe what you know about it. If

24 not ...

25 A. I'm a little confused. I'm not familiar with

20

1 the one that says "early voting." Is there another

2 term that's -- in the law that is used?

3 Q. Well, if you don't have familiarity with it,

4 that's fine. I just wanted to get a sense if you were

5 familiar at all with any changes to early voting that

6 were made in the bill.

7 A. I am aware of some changes that were made to

8 early voting.

9 Q. And what were those changes?

10 A. There were some changes to the number of days

11 in early voting --

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. -- and some changes to the number of hours in

14 early voting.

15 Q. Okay. And in your position as an election

16 specialist, do you have any responsibilities with

17 respect to early voting?

18 A. It was our responsibility to provide

19 information on that topic if we were asked, or if we

20 were asked to give it in a presentation.

21 Q. Okay. And were you asked to do so?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In what instances?

24 A. In a public presentation, we were asked to

25 give information about the election law changes




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 prior -- prior to 2016; and that would include early

2 voting.

3 Q. Okay. And do you recall when that was, and

4 whether that happened more than once?

5 A. I do not recall the exact dates of the

6 outreach events. I do know that it happened more than

7 once.

8 Q. And in front of what sort of -- what sort of

9 events did these presentations occur at?

10 A. These would be either groups or associations

11 having public events that asked us to give

12 presentations.

13 Q. Okay. Could you give me an example of some

14 of the groups that you gave these presentations in

15 front of?

16 A. National Alliance for the Mentally Ill state

17 conference. Several county GOP committee meetings.

18 North Carolina Psychological Consortium committee

19 meeting.

20 There were a number of others. I can't

21 remember the exact names of them right now.

22 Q. And what kind of information on early voting

23 did you provide in these presentations?

24 A. We provided information that early voting

25 would be over a ten-day period, and would contain the

22

1 same number of hours, and the -- in some counties, the

2 hours would be expanded.

3 Q. What is your understanding of the same-day

4 registration provision in House Bill 589?

5 A. My understanding of that provision is that

6 same-day registration was eliminated.

7 Q. Okay. And do you have any involvement in

8 voter registration tasks or activities at the State

9 Board?

10 A. Very limited.

11 Q. What are they?

12 A. If someone asks for a voter registration

13 form, I can provide that form to them.

14 Q. Okay. And you've done that in --

15 A. I have.

16 Q. And what is your understanding of the

17 out-of-precinct provision, or ballot provision, of

18 House Bill 589?

19 A. My understanding is that, if someone presents

20 to vote at the precinct where they are not allowed --

21 or are not registered to vote, they may cast a

22 provisional ballot. It may or may not be counted.

23 Q. Okay. And is that the sort of information

24 you provided during these presentations? Did you also

25 provide information on provisional voting?

23

1 A. I don't recall doing that.

2 Q. Okay. Did you provide information about the

3 same-day registration provision of the bill?

4 A. I recall presenting information that same-day

5 registration had been eliminated.

6 Q. Okay. Do you have any responsibilities with

7 respect to provisional voting at the State Board?

8 A. Say that one more time, please.

9 Q. Are you engaged in any tasks or

10 responsibilities regarding provisional voting as an

11 election specialist?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. And what is your understanding of the

14 photo voter ID provision of House Bill 589?

15 A. Could you be a little bit more specific?

16 Q. Sure. What is your understanding of the

17 changes that were made in House Bill 589 to -- let me

18 rephrase that.

19 House Bill 589 has a provision dealing with

20 voter identification. What is your understanding of

21 that provision?

22 A. I'm familiar with the law as it is written.

23 Q. And what -- what is your familiarity with it?

24 A. Beginning in 2016, photo ID will be required

25 for most registered voters who vote in person at the

24

1 polls. And there are exceptions to that.

2 Q. And what types of ID would be acceptable

3 under the law?

4 A. North Carolina driver's license. North

5 Carolina special identification card. A US passport.

6 A military identification card. A veteran's

7 identification card. A tribal -- a

8 federally-recognized tribal ID card. A

9 state-recognized ID card, if it meets the

10 specifications outlined in the bill. And then an

11 out-of-state driver's license if the voter has moved

12 into the state and registered within a 60-day period.

13 Q. Okay. And you mentioned that there are

14 exceptions to that. What are the exceptions?

15 A. The -- the photos -- the photo IDs must be

16 expired, unless -- unexpired, unless there is a --

17 they do not have an expiration date on them, as some

18 federal IDs do.

19 Also, persons who vote absentee ballot by

20 mail are not required to show a photo ID -- present a

21 photo ID. And voters who vote curbside at the polls

22 are not being asked or required to show a photo ID.

23 Q. And under House Bill 589, what voter

24 education and outreach tasks is the State Board of

25 Elections required to undertake?




7 (Pages 25 to 28)

25

1 A. The bill specifically tasks us with providing

2 outreach and education statewide, and to assist voters

3 who need help obtaining a driver's license.

4 Q. You mentioned the Voter Outreach Team. Who

5 are the members of the team?

6 A. Currently, Clyde Roper, Greg Michalek, and

7 Jennifer Faulkner are the three people.

8 Q. And what are their titles?

9 A. Their titles are Elections Specialist I.

10 They refer to themselves as voter outreach

11 specialists.

12 Q. Okay. And you're the direct supervisor for

13 Mr. Roper, Mr. Michalek, and Ms. Faulkner?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And are the members of the Voter Outreach

16 Team -- are they the only ones involved in the voter

17 education and outreach efforts regarding voter ID at

18 the State Board?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Who else is involved in these efforts?

21 A. There are two other members of the Voter

22 Outreach Team. One is Special Counsel,

23 Mr. LiVecchi --

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. -- and also the public information officer,

26

1 Josh Lawson.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. And there is also a data specialist, Brian

4 Neesby.

5 Q. So the education specialists, are those --

6 those individuals, do they have the same

7 responsibilities that you do? Or is there anything

8 that they do in addition, or that you do in addition?

9 A. Which ones are you referring to?

10 Q. So are Mr. Roper's responsibilities the same

11 as yours?

12 A. Yes, essentially.

13 Q. Are Mr. Michalek's responsibilities the same

14 as your responsibilities?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are Ms. Faulkner's responsibilities the same


18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are Mr. LiVecchi's responsibilities the same


21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. What other responsibilities does

23 Mr. LiVecchi have?

24 A. He is Special Counsel. I'm not aware of his

25 job description.

27

1 Q. Okay. What does he do with respect to voter

2 outreach and education on voter ID specifically, that

3 you're aware of?

4 A. He works collaboratively with myself and the

5 other team members on all of our projects.

6 Q. Okay. And what about Mr. Neesby? Are his

7 responsibilities the same as your responsibilities?

8 A. No.

9 Q. No. And what additional responsibilities

10 does he have with respect to voter education and

11 outreach?

12 A. I don't know his exact responsibilities other

13 than voter outreach.

14 Q. Okay. Do you know where the funding for your

15 position and the other members of the outreach team

16 comes from? How those positions are funded?

17 A. Not off -- not specifically, no.

18 Q. Do you know if there is funding appropriated

19 specifically for voter education and outreach efforts?

20 A. I do know that, yes.

21 Q. And where is this funding appropriated from?

22 A. I do not know.

23 Q. Okay. But there is a specific appropriation

24 the State Board has specifically for these

25 activities: voter outreach and education?

28

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What materials has the State Board developed

3 to comply with the House Bill 589 -- the voter ID

4 provision of House Bill 589?

5 A. The -- the materials that we have

6 developed -- there's a number of materials. We

7 developed color posters and brochures specifically to

8 be used at the poll sites in the general election. We

9 developed these materials based upon feedback that we

10 got from working with disability groups and other

11 voter rights groups, such as Democracy NC and

12 Disability Rights North Carolina, and National

13 Alliance for the Mentally Ill, who -- who recommended

14 we develop materials that included pictures.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. And so we developed very nice color posters

17 that depict the photo IDs that will be accepted in

18 2016, along with a statement on the poster that

19 says: In 2016, you will need a photo ID to vote.

20 We also, to go along with that, developed a

21 two-sided color card that we can hand out to people

22 who want information about photo ID and how to obtain

23 it.

24 And we used these materials very effectively

25 in the 2014 general election. We distributed them to




8 (Pages 29 to 32)

29

1 every -- every county Board of Elections, and they

2 were used at every precinct in North Carolina. And

3 every voter who voted in person at these precincts saw

4 these materials and was asked specifically if they had

5 a photo ID to vote. If they did not, they were given

6 the color card as information to help them obtain

7 that.

8 In addition, we developed large signs to be

9 used outside of the poll site. This was in a direct

10 result of a conversation that we had with Democracy

11 North Carolina in which they said that a number of

12 people were going to be confused in this election and

13 think that they had to have a photo ID to vote in

14 2014; and, as a result, might be discouraged from

15 going inside of the poll site. So we developed a

16 large blue sign in large letters that says: You do not

17 need a photo ID to vote in this election. And that

18 was posted in front of every poll site across the

19 state.

20 When people exited the poll sites, they also

21 saw a sign that said -- the same-sized sign -- that

22 said: You will need a photo ID to vote in 2016; ask a

23 poll worker for more information.

24 We have also developed those materials in

25 Spanish.

30

1 And we have developed a two-page -- two-page

2 flyer to be used as information for people needing a

3 photo ID, with more information about how to get a

4 photo ID from the DMV.

5 We have developed a specific website just

6 for photo ID that includes a number of links to

7 assistance in getting transportation, assistance in

8 getting a photo ID from the DMV, the documents that

9 you take to the DMV. If you need a birth certificate,

10 it shows you where to go in each county to get a birth

11 certificate.

12 And we've also developed some very specific

13 targeted materials. For example, we developed

14 a one-page flyer that could be used by persons who

15 work with people who are disabled, living in

16 facilities.

17 Q. Okay. And so I'm going to ask you several

18 questions about the materials you just mentioned.

19 Were the material -- you mentioned they were

20 developed for the general election. Were any of these

21 materials also available for the May primary?

22 A. I was not employed by the Board of Elections

23 in the primary. I do not know.

24 Q. Do you know whether any information regarding

25 the voter ID requirement was disseminated during the

31

1 May primary?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It was?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know what materials were disseminated

6 during the May primary?

7 A. I do know that people who went to vote at the

8 polls were informed that in 2016 they would need a

9 photo ID to vote. They were -- they were informed as

10 to what those photo IDs were, and they were asked if

11 they possessed a photo ID to vote. If they did not,

12 they were asked to sign an affidavit stating that they

13 did not have that.

14 And I do not know exactly what other

15 materials were available. I do know that there were

16 some available at precincts, because I saw them.

17 Q. Okay. And the materials you just described,

18 these were new materials? These weren't the same

19 materials that were distributed during the May

20 primary?

21 A. That's correct.


23 Q. Would you take a moment to review the

24 document that's just been handed to you.

25 Okay, Mr. Fitzgerald, are the materials in

32

1 these documents -- are these the materials you just

2 described?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That were prepared for the November 2014

5 election?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And these are the final versions of those

8 materials?

9 A. It appears that these posters are the final

10 version. I don't know specifically if the card is the

11 final version. It appears to be. And the voter

12 check-in review document, I was not involved with the

13 second page; cannot tell if that was. The first page

14 does appear to be the final version.

15 Q. Okay. Well, if you refer back to the first

16 page of the document, the second half of the page has

17 an email that was from you to a group email list. Do

18 you know who are the recipients of the email, who

19 would be part of these lists listed under the "To"

20 line?

21 A. Those are all of the directors of the County

22 Board of Elections.

23 Q. Okay. And do you recall sending this email?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. And this indicates that the documents that


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9 (Pages 33 to 36)

33

1 are attached -- so this is a production we received

2 from the State, so this is the email that you sent,

3 and the attachments are the attachments that went with

4 the email --

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. -- indicates that these are the final

7 versions of these materials.

8 Do you recall sending a follow-up email that

9 would have included different versions of these

10 materials?


12 Q. You don't recall whether or not you made any

13 changes and then, in turn, sent new sets of materials

14 to the directors?

15 A. I don't recall that.

16 Q. Were these materials only sent to County

17 Board of Elections directors?

18 A. To my knowledge, the people who are on these

19 groups are the county elections directors.

20 I understand that there are some other people on that

21 list as well. I do not know specifically who they

22 are, but I do know that those are the two group lists

23 that I was instructed to send material to to reach all

24 the county directors.

25 Q. Okay. So this message was sent on

34

1 September 11th of 2014. Did you send any additional

2 materials, in addition to these, to county directors

3 regarding the election? The November election.

4 A. Materials other than these?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What additional materials did you send to

8 county directors?

9 A. We sent physically, by mail or UPS, boxes

10 that contained this material, as well as the large

11 blue signs that I described earlier. And there were

12 also a large version of this colored poster depicting

13 the photo IDs. It's the exact same poster, just

14 larger. So we sent all of that material to the county

15 boards.

16 Q. Okay. And you mentioned that you conferred

17 with certain organizations when developing these

18 materials. Do you -- did you send samples of these to

19 those organizations? How did that come about? How

20 did you confer with them regarding development of

21 these materials?

22 A. It was -- it was different for each case.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. In developing the color poster (indicating).

25 Q. Okay. So you're referring to the -- the

35

1 fifth page of this exhibit, which is marked at the

2 bottom SBE00598876?

3 A. This came about after a meeting that I had

4 with the --

5 Q. I'm sorry, is that what you're referring to?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. MURPHY: I'm not sure that's the

8 number of my page. The fifth page I have is marked

9 -77.

10 MS. MEZA: The first -- the emails are

11 double-sided, so I'm counting that.

12 MS. MURPHY: My mistake. Thank you.

13 MS. MEZA: I just want to state for the

14 record to reflect what we're looking at.

15 MS. MURPHY: Right. Exactly. That's

16 what I was hoping to do.

17 THE WITNESS: I'd like to ask you a

18 question.

19 BY MS. MEZA:

20 Q. Sure.

21 A. There are two pages that appear to be the

22 same thing. Or is there a difference?

23 Q. Well, again, these printed materials are an

24 email that was sent initially by yourself, and these

25 were the materials attached. But we're simply --

36

1 we're identifying the first one, which is SBE00598876.

2 A. The color poster with -- depicting the photo

3 IDs came about after a meeting that I had with the

4 executive director of the National Alliance for the

5 Mentally Ill in Raleigh, in her office, as -- as we

6 were discussing what would be a good way to get the

7 message out to the people that she represents, or her

8 organization represents; and she replied that

9 something with photographs or pictures would be very

10 effective.

11 Q. Was that a meeting that you requested or a

12 meeting that she requested?

13 A. That was a meeting that I requested.

14 Q. For what purpose?

15 A. To establish relationships with organizations

16 that represent people that we believe may not have a

17 photo ID for the purpose of voting in 2016. Such

18 people might include people who are mentally ill:

19 people who are mentally ill living at home, people

20 that are mentally ill living in facilities.

21 Q. Okay. And did -- what is the individual who

22 you met with? What was her name?

23 A. I cannot recall.

24 Q. Okay. Well, did she or anyone at that

25 organization have any further involvement, after that


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10 (Pages 37 to 40)

37

1 meeting, with developing these materials? For

2 instance, did you send a draft or a sample of the

3 poster?

4 A. I did not. Not to -- not to them

5 specifically.

6 Q. Okay. Did any additional organizations have

7 any input in any of the materials that you -- that

8 were ultimately sent to the county directors?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. What ones?

11 A. I was not directly involved with that, so

12 I do not know exactly which ones were involved.

13 I just know that they were.

14 Q. What do you know about what sort of input

15 they had?

16 A. They were sent drafts for comment.

17 Q. Okay. And these were individuals at

18 organizations? Or --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know what types of organizations?

21 A. I do know that Democracy North Carolina was

22 one of them.

23 Q. Okay. So they were sent drafts of this

24 poster, or these other materials, and they provided

25 input?

38

1 A. I did not send -- I was not directly

2 involved, so I cannot say if they received one of

3 these specifically. I do know that they were involved

4 in the development of some of our materials.

5 Q. Okay. Were any of the county boards of

6 elections, or the directors of the county boards of

7 elections, involved in developing the materials?

8 A. Not to my knowledge.

9 Q. Okay. So they simply received the final

10 copies? They didn't receive any drafts or samples?

11 A. I was not involved with that.

12 Q. Okay. So why don't we just go through each

13 of these individually, again, to see.

14 So the first -- the first attachment to the

15 email, which is the third page and is identified by

16 Bates number SBE00598874, could you tell me what this

17 is?

18 A. This is a card that we developed to hand out

19 at the poll site to people who said that they do not

20 have a photo ID to vote in 2016.

21 Q. So this was only handed out to anyone

22 indicating they did not have an ID, and no one else?

23 A. At the poll site. That is correct.

24 Q. Okay. And -- okay.

25 Why don't we go on to the next two. So it

39

1 appears that one of these may have been a version of a

2 smaller poster and one may have been a version of a

3 larger poster. Is that correct?

4 A. That appears to be the case.

5 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of the

6 posters?

7 A. These materials were developed to be used at

8 the poll site in the general election of 2016.

9 The large poster was to be displayed at or

10 near the entrance of the poll site.

11 The individual post -- the small poster was

12 to be used at the check-in station by the poll worker

13 so that the voter would see this when they gave their

14 name to the poll worker. The poll worker would ask

15 their names and address, and confirm their name and

16 address, and then they would ask them -- or they would

17 read a statement, and the statement would be: In 2016,

18 you will need a photo ID to vote in North Carolina.

19 Do you have one of these? And they will point to the

20 poster that would be directly in front of the voter.

21 And the voter would look at the poster and give a

22 response.

23 Q. Okay. And the last document, this was also

24 provided to the county directors for the poll sites;

25 what is this document?

40

1 A. This is a voter check-in review document.

2 Q. Okay. And what is the purpose of it?

3 A. To guide the poll workers in their -- in the

4 process of checking in a voter at the poll site.

5 Q. So this was simply for purposes of the poll

6 worker? This wasn't handed to voters?

7 A. None of them.

8 Q. Were these materials also made available at

9 early voting sites?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Have any changes been made to these materials

12 since the November 2014 election?

13 A. We are in the process of revising some of

14 these documents. We have not printed them.

15 Q. Okay. And what sort of revisions are you

16 making to the documents?

17 A. I'm not directly involved with this document

18 (indicating), with the revisions of this one.

19 Q. With the first one?

20 A. Yes. So I cannot --

21 Q. And what are you calling the -- this

22 document?

23 A. We call it a push card.

24 Q. Okay. So there are revisions being made to

25 the push card?




11 (Pages 41 to 44)

41

1 A. I -- I don't know. I can't speak to that --

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. -- I'm not directly involved with that.

4 On the poster, we are considering changing

5 the wording under "Military ID" and adding a phrase

6 that says "Active," "Retired," and "Dependents."

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. We are considering changing, also, the visual

9 appearance of the military ID card to include Coast

10 Guard.

11 Q. Okay. And why are you making these changes?

12 A. After receiving public feedback.

13 Q. What was the feedback?

14 A. "Why do you" -- "Why do you not have the

15 Coast Guard on the military IDs?"

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. And the US passport, we are waiting on people

18 above us to make a decision as to whether the US

19 passport will also include the US passport identity

20 card.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. And if it does, we will have a visual that

23 shows that.

24 Q. So, at this point, you're not certain, or it

25 hasn't been determined whether a passport card would

42

1 also be acceptable under HB 589 for voting purposes in

2 2016?

3 A. To the best of my knowledge.

4 Q. That's not been determined?


6 Q. Okay. Is there any indication on the poster

7 whether or not any of these forms of identification

8 have to be current, or whether one can use an expired

9 version of one of these?

10 A. That statement does not appear on the poster;

11 and we are having discussions about that, whether or

12 not to include. And our discussions are centered

13 around just how much information do you put on a

14 poster that goes on a wall for somebody to look at,

15 without having too much information.

16 Q. So you haven't determined whether or not

17 you'll make that revision to the poster?

18 A. We have not.

19 Q. Okay. And what about the last document, the

20 check-in document? Are any changes or revisions being

21 made to that document?

22 A. Not to my knowledge by -- not by me.

23 Q. Okay. Are you in the process of developing

24 any materials in addition to these materials regarding

25 voter ID?

43

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What materials?

3 A. We are in the process of having these printed

4 in Spanish.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. We are also involved with making a two-page

7 handout that is this size (indicating) that contains

8 all the information that is on the push card and goes

9 into more detail. For example, it would have the

10 detail about what card can be expired, what card must

11 be unexpired.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. So it would go into great detail about -- and

14 will also contain great deal of information about what

15 documents you can take to the DMV. And we would also

16 have that produced in Spanish.

17 Q. And when are those materials going to be

18 finalized?

19 A. We anticipate within -- within six to eight

20 weeks.

21 Q. And what is -- what will be the purpose of

22 those materials?

23 A. To assist us in our outreach efforts.

24 Q. Well, who will receive the materials?

25 A. In addition to anyone who requests it, we

44

1 would use them in our outreach efforts to groups and

2 associations who would need that kind of detailed

3 information.

4 We would also have them available at any

5 public events that we have, to hand out to someone who

6 requests a great deal of information. Someone who

7 would say, "I don't have an ID to vote, and I need

8 information how to get one," we would provide that

9 information to them.

10 Q. Okay. You mentioned a website. There's --

11 is any information about the changes to voter

12 identification on the current State Board of Elections

13 website?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you're in the process of developing a

16 stand-alone website in addition to the information

17 available on the State Board website; is that correct?

18 A. We have developed.

19 Q. Is that a live website at this point?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. It is. Okay. So is there a link on the

22 State Board of Elections website to the stand-alone

23 website?

24 A. There -- not yet. It's -- it's being -- my

25 understanding is that the people who do that kind of




12 (Pages 45 to 48)

45

1 work at the Board of Elections are in the process of

2 doing that right now.

3 Q. So the stand-alone website, someone can now

4 go in, if they have the web address, and access the

5 new stand-alone website -- the new stand-alone voter

6 ID website?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that web address available on any of your

9 materials?

10 A. It is not available on the materials that we

11 have already printed. It is going to be on the

12 materials that we are going to print.

13 Q. Okay. And what information is on the voter

14 ID stand-alone website that is not currently on the

15 State Board of Elections website?

16 A. There is a great deal of information about

17 how to obtain transportation to the DMV per county,

18 listing transportation resources in every county.

19 For example, if someone calls in from Avery

20 County and says, "How do I get to my DMV?" they can go

21 on the website and find the transportation providers

22 in that county that they can call and get a ride to

23 the DMV.

24 There is more information on our website

25 about frequently-asked questions that we -- we took

46

1 the most commonly-asked questions, and even some that

2 are uncommonly asked, and put it in a form that

3 somebody would be able to reference easily if they

4 have a specific need or a question.

5 There are visual appearances of the

6 different forms of photo ID that would be required for

7 voting in 2016 that are on the new website that are

8 not on the old website.

9 Q. When you say "old website," you're referring

10 to the State Board of Elections website?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. What is the web address for the

13 stand-alone voter ID website?

14 A. Www.voterid.nc.gov.

15 Q. Okay. Are you still in the process of

16 updating the information on that website? Or at this

17 point is it -- is it final?

18 A. I am not directly involved with the website.

19 I don't know where they are in that process.

20 Q. Okay.

21 We've been going for a little over an hour.

22 Would you like to take a break? Or -- we can have,

23 like, a five-minute break, or we can keep going.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You'd like a break?

47

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. MEZA: Okay. Let's take a break.

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record at

4 11:08 a.m.

5 (RECESS TAKEN FROM 11:08 A.M. TO 11:23 A.M.)

6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on record at

7 11:23 a.m.

8 BY MS. MEZA:

9 Q. Okay. I just wanted to go back to the

10 website.

11 You indicated that you weren't aware whether

12 any additional changes were going to be made to the

13 website.

14 What individuals are working on the

15 website -- on the voter ID website?

16 A. Don't recall that I said specifically I'm not

17 aware of any changes.

18 Q. Oh.

19 A. I don't think I said that.

20 Q. Okay. Well, what changes are being --

21 A. I don't know --

22 Q. I asked --

23 A. I don't know specifically what changes are

24 being made.

25 Q. Okay. Are you aware whether changes will be

48

1 made to the website, or additions?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Yes. In addition to yourself, who else is

4 working on the website?

5 A. Brian Neesby is working on the website;

6 Josh Lawson is working on it; Brian LiVecchi is

7 working on it; and Greg Michalek will be working on

8 it.

9 Q. Okay. And who is primarily responsible for

10 providing the content of the website?

11 A. Initially, the task of the website was

12 assigned to Brian LiVecchi and Greg Michalek. They

13 put together the drafts of -- and much of the

14 information that is on the website was developed by

15 those two.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. I was not directly involved with it.

18 And then Josh Lawson has also been key with

19 contributing to it. Brian Neesby is a technical

20 person who can -- he knows how to code; I don't.

21 Q. Okay. So the coding and the technical

22 aspects of the website, that's all being handled

23 in-house by staff at the State Board of Elections?

24 A. To the best of my knowledge, it's all

25 in-house.




13 (Pages 49 to 52)

49


2 Q. Okay, Mr. Fitzgerald. Do you recall having

3 seen the communication reflected in Exhibit 259?

4 A. I do not recall specifically seeing this.

5 Q. Okay. Well, who is Cherie Poucher?

6 A. She is the director of Wake County Board of

7 Elections.

8 Q. Okay. And if we turn to page 2 of the

9 document, there is a message from Ms. Poucher on

10 September 2nd, 2014. Do you see that?

11 A. Is it the one sent at 12:40 p.m.?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So Ms. Poucher is referring to -- or do you

15 know what Ms. Poucher was referring to when she

16 indicated that information had already been sent to

17 the printers?


19 Q. In addition to the materials you sent to the

20 county directors, do you know whether county boards of

21 elections developed materials about voter ID in

22 addition to the ones you -- that were sent by the

23 State Board?

24 A. One instance that I am aware of is that

25 Charlotte-Mecklenburg County Board of Elections

50

1 printed extra copies of the large blue sign. They --

2 and used that at their poll sites. They did not

3 change the text or the appearance; they just copied

4 them -- made copies on their own.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I'm not aware of other counties producing

7 their own materials.

8 Q. But in addition to making copies of those

9 materials provided by the State Board of Elections,

10 you're not aware whether counties on their own may

11 have produced a flyer or some sort of list or handout

12 regarding voter ID?

13 A. I'm not aware of that.

14 Q. And aside from that one instance in Charlotte

15 you mentioned where they made additional copies of the

16 big blue sign, are you aware whether any counties made

17 copies of the materials you sent -- the State Board of

18 Elections sent?

19 A. I'm not aware of any specific instances.

20 Q. Okay. So after the November election, did

21 you solicit any feedback from the county boards of

22 elections regarding the materials you disseminated on

23 voter ID for the 2014 elections?

24 A. I did not.

25 Q. Did members of your team solicit any feedback

51

1 from the county directors?

2 A. Not that I'm aware of.

3 Q. Okay. So you -- did you send out an email,

4 or did you come up with some sort of survey, asking

5 them what they thought about the materials?

6 A. I discussed that with the county liaison,

7 Kate Cosner --

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. -- and she recommended that I not do that at

10 that time because there was -- in her words, they had

11 so much -- or so many other things on their plate --

12 Q. "They" being --

13 A. -- following the --

14 Q. -- the county directors?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. So after -- immediately after the

17 elections, you didn't solicit their feedback.

18 How about a few months after the elections?

19 You've not solicited their feedback on whether these

20 materials -- on anything regarding the voter ID

21 materials?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay.

24 Okay. So you mentioned some of the -- your

25 outreach efforts with different organizations. How

52

1 did you go about identifying specific organizations or

2 groups to contact in your outreach efforts?

3 A. We used a list of organizations and

4 associations that was compiled, I believe, by the

5 North Carolina association of nonprofit organizations.

6 It's a very comprehensive list of associations across

7 the state.

8 In addition to that, we identified state

9 agencies that would be involved with voter

10 registration, other than the Board of Elections, as

11 well as state agencies that might provide services to

12 people who might be affected by the changes to the

13 law.

14 And from that list, we divided the list

15 amongst ourselves and made contacts, or attempted to

16 make contacts, with these organizations.

17 Q. Okay. So the initial list of organizations

18 you mentioned, were these all nonprofit organizations?

19 Did you look up specific categories of organizations?

20 What sorts of organizations were included in this

21 comprehensive list you mentioned initially?

22 A. I went through the entire list and pulled out

23 organizations that, in my opinion, would most likely

24 represent people that would need information about

25 photo ID.




14 (Pages 53 to 56)

53

1 I do need to add that I also used the State

2 Attorney General's list of registered -- of groups and

3 individuals registered to lobby with the General

4 Assembly to compile my list of organizations.

5 Q. Okay. Have you added organizations to that

6 list?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So let me go back to the first document we

9 looked at, the -- what was marked as Exhibit 257.

10 This included the response to Interrogatory No. 14.

11 So page 11 of that document.

12 So this first list of organizations that are

13 on page 11 and 12, that reflects either organizations

14 or entities or agencies that you have met with; is

15 that correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. So is this list a list of every organization

18 you've contacted as well?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So there are organizations in addition to the

21 ones reflected on these lists -- on this list that

22 you've contacted?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what were the -- or what was the purpose

25 of -- let me rephrase that.

54

1 How did you go about contacting the

2 organizations -- were they phone calls? Letters? --

3 after you identified the list of organizations you

4 were going to focus your outreach efforts on.

5 A. The majority were phone calls. There were

6 emails sent. And in just a very few cases, there may

7 have been letters sent. But the majority of the

8 contact was either a phone call or an email.

9 Q. And what was the nature of that contact?

10 Were you offering information? Were you soliciting

11 feedback? What was the nature of that contact?

12 A. We were offering to meet with them and

13 introduce ourselves and to our efforts to provide

14 information and education to the public, and, in the

15 initial meeting, determine if we can partner together

16 or work together or just provide information to them.

17 Q. Were there any organizations that you

18 contacted that replied that they weren't interested in

19 either partnering with you or receiving the

20 information you were offering?

21 A. I cannot think of one at this time.

22 Q. So the list on page 11 and 12 reflects some

23 county boards of elections. For instance: Bertie,

24 Harnett. Are the county boards of elections listed

25 here -- are those the only ones you've met with, at

55

1 this point, regarding your voter ID efforts?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. How did you go about reaching out to

4 the counties?

5 A. A two-fold approach. The first was a

6 presentation at the state conference, where all the

7 directors were together; and we made presentations at

8 two of those, where we offered to come in and talk to

9 them or bring the materials or provide information to

10 them or meet with groups that they have -- if they

11 have a speaking event they would like us to come and

12 help with, we -- we offered to do that. That was the

13 first approach.

14 The second approach was where we might have

15 gotten a specific request from a county to come down

16 and provide information to them or to speak at a

17 public event, and -- or we chose the county to go down

18 and observe the process of the photo ID -- of the

19 process of asking if you have a photo ID in early

20 voting period for the general election, where we would

21 go in and physically observe how that process that we

22 had created was working.

23 Q. And how did you go about choosing the

24 counties where you did those observations?

25 A. We chose a mix of rural counties and urban

56

1 counties. Part of the decision was based on

2 proximity, and part of it was based upon whether or

3 not they were rural or urban.

4 Q. Okay. Do you recall the total number of

5 counties you or members of your staff visited?

6 A. I can't think of an exact number.

7 Q. Average? I mean, was it five? Was it ten?

8 A. I believe that each of -- the three of us

9 each went out and observed at least four each.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. I want to say between four and six each.

12 Q. Okay. And you observed both during early

13 voting and election day?

14 A. No. We observed early voting.

15 Q. Early voting only. Okay.

16 So the county board of elections that you've

17 met with thus far, were those meetings -- do you

18 intend on meeting with all the other county boards of

19 elections? Or have you had contact with the other

20 county boards of elections not listed here?

21 A. It is our intent, over this period of time,

22 that we meet with all the county board of elections

23 and visit each one of them.

24 Q. And aside from providing them materials and

25 informing them of the changes that the voter ID law




15 (Pages 57 to 60)

57

1 will -- the changes regarding voter ID that will occur

2 in 2016, what additional information is exchanged

3 during these meetings?

4 A. Up to this point, that has been our main

5 focus, is providing them with information and

6 materials, as well as offering to speak to any kind of

7 public event that they might hold and would like for

8 us to come down and be part of.

9 In the upcoming months, our relationship is

10 going to change, and we are going to be developing the

11 training program for the county boards of elections

12 that they will use to train their poll judges and poll

13 workers specifically on photo ID.

14 Q. So, at this point, you've not had any

15 involvement in poll worker training with respect to

16 voter ID?

17 A. Aside from producing the document that -- the

18 documents that we saw earlier, no, we have not. That

19 is -- that is not our -- that has not been our

20 assignment.

21 Q. Okay. So what are you doing in preparation

22 for becoming involved in the poll -- poll judges or

23 election judge training?

24 A. We have -- we have put out an RFP to bring in

25 an advertising/marketing firm, a professional firm, to

58

1 develop public outreach messages in the form of radio,

2 TV, newspaper, social media, that will begin in June

3 of this year, possibly July, and run through the

4 general election of next year, to provide targeted

5 messages in those forms.

6 In addition to that RFP, we included that

7 the -- this professional firm would produce training

8 materials for the purpose of training the poll judges

9 and the poll workers: "Training materials" being a

10 visual, like a video or a PowerPoint presentation, and

11 any other form that we find necessary to get our

12 message effectively to the counties; and in such a

13 format that this material, this training material that

14 they produce would be available to the counties in

15 many different forms -- website form, CDs, web --

16 online, that sort of thing -- to assist them in

17 training their poll workers.

18 Q. And will -- whatever entity is successful

19 with the RFP process, will they -- is the intention

20 that they will independently develop these materials?

21 Or will the State Board, including yourself and the

22 Voter Outreach Team, have involvement in that process?

23 A. The State Board will have involvement in that

24 process.


59

1 Q. Okay, Mr. Fitzgerald, what is the document

2 that is now Exhibit 260?

3 A. To the best of my knowledge, this is a draft

4 memorandum of understanding that Greg Michalek

5 produced specifically for partnering with an

6 organization that was affiliated with South Forward.

7 I believe their name was Voter Identification Project.

8 June Mabry was their contact.

9 And there -- we felt like that it would be a

10 good idea to have a memorandum of understanding that

11 would spell out in particularly the sharing of voter

12 lists, because we will be asking them to provide

13 feedback to us of people that they would contact on

14 our list. And so, in other -- in order to do that,

15 I think we felt at the time it would be a good idea to

16 have a memorandum of understanding.

17 Q. So was this memorandum of understanding for

18 use only with that specific organization? Or is the

19 intention to use it with any organization with whom

20 you partner?

21 A. The intention, I believe, is to use it with

22 any organization where something like that would be

23 necessary or requested.

24 Q. So was this document finalized and used with

25 the Voter Education Project? Is that the organization

60

1 you mentioned?

2 A. Voter Identification Project. I am not aware

3 of that. I do not know. That -- this was being

4 worked on by Greg Michalek and the Special Counsel

5 with the Board of Elections, and I cannot recall if it

6 was finalized or not. I just can't recall.

7 Q. Do you know whether this memorandum of

8 understanding or any other memorandum of understanding

9 has been executed between the State Board of Elections

10 and an organization with respect to the voter ID voter

11 education and outreach efforts?

12 A. I'm not aware of any.

13 Q. Are you currently in the process of

14 partnering with an organization so that there will be

15 a need to execute a memorandum of understanding such

16 as this one?

17 A. It would be possible that we are in the

18 process. I cannot think of any specific instances of

19 any specific organizations where we have discussed

20 using this specific document.

21 Q. Well, outside of this specific document, have

22 you entered into any formal agreement or memorandum of

23 agreement or memorandum of understanding with an

24 organization or entity regarding voter ID education

25 and outreach efforts?




16 (Pages 61 to 64)

61

1 A. I have not found it necessary to do that.

2 Every organization that I have contacted, to the best

3 of my knowledge, has been willing to work with us

4 without such a formal agreement, and has not even

5 mentioned the necessity for such a document.

6 I think that the only one that we discussed

7 it with at that time, that I can remember, was -- was

8 the one with June Mabry.

9 Now, this is -- this really would be above

10 me, with Special Counsel or with counsel. If they

11 enter into some sort of formal agreement, I might not

12 be aware of that.

13 Q. Okay.

14 (EXHIBIT 261 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)261

15 Q. And, Mr. Fitzgerald, do you recall the

16 communication reflected in Exhibit 262? I'm sorry,

17 261 we're at.

18 A. I do.

19 Q. And who is Amy Strange?

20 A. Amy Strange is the deputy director of the

21 State Board of Elections.

22 Q. And the inquiry here -- do you recall the

23 nature of this inquiry? What -- what was Karen

24 Lawrence asking you?

25 A. Karen Lawrence, the deputy director or

62

1 director of the Polk County Board of Elections, was

2 asking to us help pay for advertising for an event

3 that they wanted to hold -- a public event.

4 Q. Do you recall whether or not the State Board

5 provided funding for that event?

6 A. I do recall.

7 Q. Did they?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. They did. And is that the only instance

10 where the Board has provided funding for any voter

11 ID-related county efforts?

12 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge, it is the

13 only time that we have been -- we have provided money,

14 and it is the only time that we've been asked.

15 Q. At this point, has there been any

16 determination as to whether funding would be provided

17 if another county requested funding for materials or

18 an event related to voter ID?

19 A. Yes. We have discussed it and decided to

20 approach it by a case-by-case basis.

21 Q. Have you made any determination as to whether

22 there'd be a limited amount -- a cap on the funding

23 you would provide a county?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And, again, you said that you have not

63

1 received any additional request other than this

2 request by Polk County?

3 A. To the best of my knowledge, Polk County's

4 request was the only request that we have received to

5 help pay for advertising.

6 Q. Okay. Have you had any requests for funding

7 from any organizations?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What organizations?

10 A. One of the North Carolina state-recognized

11 tribes has directly asked us to assist them with

12 funding to help them cover the cost of producing -- or

13 modifying their ID card. They -- they want to go to a

14 new ID card and have asked us to help defray some of

15 the cost.

16 Q. Okay. And has a decision been made whether

17 or not that funding will be provided?

18 A. Not to my knowledge.

19 Q. And would the ID that the -- I'm sorry, what

20 tribe is it?

21 A. This request came from the Haliwa-Saponi

22 tribe.

23 Q. Okay. And would the ID that they are trying

24 to develop be for voting purposes only?

25 A. No. It would be their tribal ID card that

64

1 they would give to all their tribal members for

2 purposes of identifying themselves as members of that

3 tribe.

4 Q. Okay. And do you know why they would -- why

5 they want to change -- well, let me -- let me go back.

6 Do they currently have some sort of tribal

7 identification?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know why they want to make changes to

10 that identification?

11 A. I do not know any specific reasons why.

12 Q. And the funding they have requested would be

13 for what specifically? For printing costs? For

14 developing the ID? For what specific funding have

15 they requested?

16 A. To the best of my knowledge, they have

17 requested funding for -- just for the purpose of

18 defraying the cost of producing the card. And --

19 Q. Do you know --

20 A. -- I don't know specifically what that would

21 involve.

22 Q. Okay. And aside from the tribe, have you

23 been -- have funding requests made by -- been made by

24 any other organizations?

25 A. Not -- not to my knowledge.




17 (Pages 65 to 68)

65

1 Q. Okay. You mentioned the RFP and the efforts

2 to develop some poll working -- or poll trainer --

3 excuse me -- poll worker training materials. So, at

4 this point, have -- you've -- the Voter Outreach Team,

5 have you had any involvement in any poll worker

6 training, or developing any materials for poll

7 working -- poll worker training purposes?

8 A. The -- I need to really think on this.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. The only thing that I can recall is that we

11 were asked to assist in the production of a short

12 video that was being made by the -- another department

13 within the State Board of Elections for the purpose of

14 poll worker training. And our involvement was just to

15 be people to participate in the -- in the video. In

16 other words, we were asked to be actors.

17 Q. Okay. Did you participate in the script or

18 any other part of developing that video?

19 A. The script was developed for that -- it was

20 not developed by me --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. -- so I had no part in that.

23 Q. So you simply acted in the video?

24 A. (Witness nods head.)

25 Q. Okay.

66

1 A. The team, I believe, had input into the

2 script. I did not.

3 Q. Okay.


5 Q. Okay? Okay, Mr. Fitzgerald, what is

6 document -- the document that is now Exhibit 262?

7 A. This is a PowerPoint presentation that I put

8 together for the purpose of -- to the best of my

9 knowledge, I used this first to give to managers at

10 the State Board of Elections to illustrate to them

11 what we were envisioning for the poll workers to use

12 in the November election to identify persons who are

13 registered to vote but do not have a photo ID for the

14 purpose of voting in 2016.

15 We -- me -- our team -- felt strongly that

16 we needed to improve the process that they used in the

17 primary, and so we came up with a new process. And

18 I believe that this PowerPoint is what I used to show

19 the managers what we envisioned the new process to be.

20 Q. Okay. And you said you felt strongly that

21 the process that had been used during the primary

22 needed to change or be modified; and why is that?

23 A. From what I saw, the State Board had created

24 a small poster that would be displayed at poll sites

25 that would inform people of photo ID. It was a --

67

1 it's not a large poster and, in my opinion, it did

2 not -- it was not visually appealing.

3 In addition to that, the poll workers were

4 asked to read a script to each voter appearing in

5 front of them, and the script was -- was essentially

6 part of the law. The script took about 40 seconds to

7 read to each voter. And my feeling was, at the time,

8 that to do that in the general election would not be

9 effective.

10 And so we -- we wanted to come up with a

11 more effective process, a shorter process, that would

12 cut the time down that the poll worker would be

13 asking, and the message would be more effective,

14 getting more reliable response.

15 And so those are -- those are the two main

16 reasons, I think, that we wanted to improve the

17 process from the primary.

18 Q. Okay. And the script reflected here, or was

19 being referred to as the "New 'Ask'" -- that's what

20 was used by poll workers during the 2014 general

21 election?

22 A. This was an initial effort that was created

23 in September by me, I believe at the -- the process

24 that was eventually used at the poll sites in early

25 voting and at the general election may have been

68

1 modified somewhat. The message was still very

2 similar, but the -- the exact wording may have

3 changed -- changed somewhat.

4 In addition to that, these visuals that

5 I've -- that I used here in this presentation

6 (indicating) were not the same visuals that I used in

7 the election. They were not the final materials.

8 So there were several -- there were probably

9 several draft versions between this and what we ended

10 up using.

11 Q. For the election?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. MEZA: I've been informed that the

14 video is about to run out, so --

15 Would you like to switch?

16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes.

17 MS. MEZA: So why don't we take a

18 five-minute break.


20 12:12.

21 (RECESS TAKEN FROM 12:12 P.M. TO 1:05 P.M.)

22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on record

23 at 1:05 p.m.

24 BY MS. MEZA:

25 Q. Okay. Good afternoon, Mr. Fitzgerald.




18 (Pages 69 to 72)

69

1 Welcome back.

2 So during the 2014 elections, you -- you may

3 have already answered this, but what exactly occurred

4 when a voter indicated that he or she did not have one

5 of the forms of photo IDs that would be necessary to

6 vote in person after -- or beginning in 2016?

7 A. Do you want to -- do you want me to answer

8 for the primary election, which I was not a part of,

9 or the general election, which I was a part of, or

10 both?

11 Q. For both; and to the extent you have

12 knowledge about what happened during the primary.

13 A. To the extent that I have knowledge of what

14 happened in the primary, when someone presented to

15 vote in person at the polls, they were read a script

16 by the poll worker; and the script was a statement

17 that was very similar to the way the law was

18 written -- in fact, it was almost verbatim to the

19 law -- that in 2016 you'll need a photo ID to vote,

20 and it went on and had other -- several other

21 sentences in there. And it also went into detail

22 about which IDs would be acceptable for voting in

23 2016.

24 And the poll worker was to seek an answer

25 from the person presenting to vote. If the voter said

70

1 that they do have an ID, then the poll worker was

2 instructed to go ahead and give them the ballot and

3 ask them to sign the acknowledgment that they received

4 the ballot.

5 After that election was over -- well, let me

6 back up.

7 If someone responded that they did not have

8 a photo ID to vote, the poll worker asked them to sign

9 on a line that was on the same sheet of paper that --

10 the line to sign this said that, you know, "I've

11 received my ballot"; and that line was an Affidavit of

12 No Photo ID, I believe was the title of that line.

13 After the election was over, the county

14 boards of elections, I understand, scanned in the

15 ballots that had a signature in the place that

16 acknowledged that they had no photo ID and sent that

17 information up to the State Board, and the State Board

18 compiled a list of those people.

19 When I started working at the State Board of

20 Elections, I was aware of that list. And I was also

21 aware that there was some discussion that some of the

22 counties may have -- may have asked people to sign the

23 wrong line by mistake. So we were aware that some

24 people who signed the Affidavit of No Photo ID may

25 have, in fact, had a photo ID and were just instructed

71

1 to sign on the wrong line.

2 In the general election, or leading up to

3 the general election, our team made a concerted effort

4 to improve that process, so that when somebody went to

5 the polls to vote in 20- -- in the general election,

6 or any early voting up to that, the first thing that

7 they were met with was a sign outside the polls

8 saying, "You do not need a photo ID to vote in this

9 election."

10 The second thing that they saw was a large

11 poster showing the I -- pictures of the photo IDs that

12 would be acceptable. I need to state that they were

13 the most common photo IDs; we did not include every

14 one, just for the purpose of space.

15 And when they presented to vote at -- in

16 front of the poll worker, the poll worker read a very

17 short script that said, "In 2016, you will need a

18 photo ID to vote. Do you have one of these?" And

19 they pointed to the small poster, color poster, of the

20 photographs or pictures of the acceptable forms of

21 IDs.

22 And as they pointed to that, when people

23 would respond in the affirmative or negative, the poll

24 worker would then -- if they responded that they do

25 have a photo ID, then the poll worker would ask them

72

1 to sign the poll book and hand them their ballot. If

2 they -- if they said that they do not have a photo ID,

3 they were asked to sign the poll book also with a line

4 on it that -- that state -- that was an affidavit that

5 "I do not have a photo ID."

6 In the general election, my understanding

7 was that line was moved to where it was not right

8 above the other line to sign, to try to avoid the

9 confusion of the first.

10 And so that was the difference between the

11 two.

12 The -- the thing to note is that anybody

13 appearing -- or casting a vote in person at the polls

14 in North Carolina was asked, in 2014, either at the

15 primary and/or the general election, if they had a

16 photo ID to vote, and they were also shown pictures of

17 what those photo IDs were, and informed that they

18 would need to have one of those in 2016, and give them

19 the opportunity to -- to affirm or say, "I do not have

20 one of those."

21 And if they did -- in the general election,

22 if they did not have a photo ID, in addition to

23 signing the Affidavit of No Photo ID, they were also

24 given a push card that was two-sided and in color that

25 gave general instructions to them on how to get a free




19 (Pages 73 to 76)

73

1 photo ID from the DMV, and what materials to take with

2 them to the DMV. That card was not provided in the

3 primary; that was something that our team added to

4 that.

5 Q. Okay. And you noted that, during the

6 primary, the counties then scanned in the signature

7 form. Did that also happen during the general --

8 after the general election?

9 A. It did --

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. -- and that information was transmitted up to

12 us.

13 Q. Okay. And at this point, what has been done

14 with that information? With the information from both

15 the primary and general election?

16 A. We compiled the list and combined the two

17 lists. And I was not involved with that process;

18 don't know how it was combined. I just know that we

19 have a list of names, addresses, information -- voter

20 information -- of somewhere between 11,000 and 12,000

21 people. I don't know the exact number.

22 We sent a mailing out to each one of those

23 people on the list; and that mailing consisted of a

24 letter that had a tear-off portion at the bottom where

25 someone could reply back to the State Board of

74

1 Elections. We included with it a postage-paid

2 envelope that was inserted into the mailing envelope;

3 and we also included a smaller version of the push

4 card that we provided in the general election. The

5 mailing stated that the voter was receiving this

6 letter because they -- they had signed that line, and

7 we are asking them "How can we help?"

8 Now, we had become aware, through this

9 second-hand information, that some of the voters we

10 were mailing to may have signed that line

11 inadvertently or been directed by the poll workers in

12 the primaries, and they would have a photo ID.

13 So we included on the reply card a check box

14 where they could say, "I have a photo ID; take me off

15 the list." Box below that said, "I do not have a

16 photo ID, but I plan to get one on my own." And then

17 the third check box said, "I do not have a photo ID

18 and I need help." And then below that, we had a

19 couple of lines where we wrote, "How can we help you?"

20 And the person could tell us. For example, "Do you

21 need a ride to the DMV?" Or "Do you need a birth

22 certificate?" We included that language on there so

23 that the person could tell us what kind of help they

24 needed.

25 And then asked that they tear off that piece

75

1 of paper and put it in the envelope that we -- was

2 postage-paid and return it to us.

3 Q. Okay.


5 Q. Mr. Fitzgerald, is the document that is now

6 marked Exhibit 263 -- is that the letter you're

7 referring to?

8 A. It appears to be, yes.

9 Q. And when was the mailing sent out?

10 A. I don't know the exact date. It was sometime

11 around the end of January, the beginning of February,

12 to the best of my knowledge; somewhere in that area.

13 Q. Okay. And do you know whether the letter was

14 sent to individuals who signed the acknowledgment of

15 no ID during both the primary and general elections?

16 A. It was sent to voters whose name appeared on

17 the line that said, "Acknowledgment of No Photo ID,"

18 and it was a combination of the general and the

19 primary.

20 Q. So individuals who signed that acknowledgment

21 in the primary -- in the May primary, they didn't get

22 a separate mailing? They -- this letter was mailed to

23 everyone in either January or February of this year?

24 A. To the best of my knowledge, there was not a

25 separate mailing to the voters who signed in the

76

1 primary.

2 Q. Okay. And this -- the letter went out to

3 everybody on the list from both the May and general

4 primary? There weren't kind of waves of mailing?

5 They all went out on the same date?

6 A. To the best of my knowledge, it went out on

7 the same date. If the mail house sent it out over two

8 separate days, perhaps, possibly. But to the best of

9 my knowledge, it went out on the same date.

10 Q. Okay. And at this point, have you received

11 back any of the acknowledgments or the postcard that

12 they would mail back?

13 A. We have received the tear-off piece at the

14 bottom, placed in an envelope, addressed to the State

15 Board of Elections. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know how many of those have been

17 returned?

18 A. Roughly 2,000.

19 Q. Actually, let me go back.

20 How many letters were sent out, if you

21 recall?

22 A. The final total I'm not sure of. It was

23 around 10,500; somewhere in that area. It may have

24 been as many as 10,800. I'm -- I just don't know the

25 exact amount.




20 (Pages 77 to 80)

77

1 Q. Okay. And at this point, you said, you've

2 gotten back about 2,000 or so?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what is being done with those replies at

5 this point?

6 A. Currently, we are separating the replies by

7 response and organizing them. We are also scanning

8 the bar codes that are on each letter to give us the

9 name and information of each person that has replied.

10 Q. And what is the plan? Or what plans are

11 there to -- what are you going to do with the

12 individuals who request some sort of help?

13 A. We are going to contact them in the best way

14 that they have indicated. If they've given us a phone

15 number, we will contact them that way. If they've

16 given us an email address, we will contact them that

17 way. If they've provided no information, then we will

18 do everything that we can to contact them, including

19 looking up their phone number on another database, if

20 need be, in addition to mailing them a letter at their

21 address. We're going to do everything that we can to

22 contact them.

23 Q. And if there's approximately 2,000 return

24 cards you've gotten, how many have requested some sort

25 of assistance in acquiring ID?

78

1 A. I believe the number right now is 50.

2 Q. And how many have indicated that they

3 actually have an appropriate ID?

4 A. To date, the response is broken down.

5 I believe that the people who responded that they have

6 no form and need help is around 50. There are another

7 20 responses of people who have signed -- or had

8 checked more than one box, so we're not sure, and

9 we're going to contact them anyway. And so the

10 remainder are people who have responded that they do

11 have a photo ID and they'd like to be taken off the

12 list.

13 Q. Okay. So at this point, approximately -- of

14 the 2,000, you said 50 -- about 50 have requested

15 assistance; about 20, they've checked more than one

16 box so it's not clear; and then the rest all have

17 checked that they have an -- they have ID; they have

18 the appropriate ID to vote?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So of the 50 who have requested some sort of

21 assistance, have those -- have you start -- have you

22 begun to contact those individuals?

23 A. Yes. I believe that four of them have been

24 contacted. I have not done it myself. I just have

25 heard that one of the other outreach specialists has

79

1 called four.

2 Q. Who has -- who's the outreach specialist

3 who's been making the phone calls?

4 A. Clyde Roper.

5 Q. Okay. Has he indicated what specific

6 assistance these four individuals require?

7 A. I can only speak to one that I was present

8 for. He was able to ask them what type of photo ID

9 they did have, if any; and I believe that they did

10 have a photo ID, after some discussion of what they

11 could use.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. So in that one case, they did not need

14 further -- further assistance.

15 Q. Okay. At this point, do you have any

16 information about the make-up of the 50 -- the

17 demographic make-up of the 50 individuals who

18 requested assistance with acquiring ID?

19 A. No. We have not analyzed that data yet.

20 Q. Do you have any information about the

21 geographic make-up of those individuals? Do they come

22 from one part of the state as opposed to another?

23 A. We have not analyzed that yet.


25 Q. So do you recall this communication,

80

1 Mr. Fitzgerald?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the subject of the email, the "No ID

4 List," is this the list that you were referring to, as

5 far as the individuals that acknowledged having no ID

6 during both the primary and general elections?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. So in the first full paragraph, Mr. Neesby

9 indicates that there wasn't 100 percent confirmation

10 that all the counties had uploaded their information

11 for the general election as of December 30th.

12 Do you know whether that confirmation was

13 ever -- whether that confirmation was ever made,

14 whether 100 percent of the counties entered the

15 information they had on voters who had acknowledged

16 not having ID?

17 A. I do not have that information.

18 Q. As far as you're aware, the 10,325 voter

19 figure, is that -- was that the final number on that

20 list?

21 A. I do not recall the final number.

22 Q. But it was close to that 10,000? Or not?

23 A. As I said previously, it was somewhere around

24 10,500, give or take a couple of hundred. I just

25 cannot remember that exact number. I'm sorry.




21 (Pages 81 to 84)

81

1 Q. Mr. Neesby also indicates that there appear

2 to be some on the list that have some sort of DMV

3 record.

4 Was there any further investigation into

5 whether or not any number of the individuals on the

6 list had a DMV record?

7 A. The discussion that I was involved with,

8 regarding that number, is that that was confirmation

9 that the individuals did not have -- or did have a

10 driver's license number on registration.

11 I do -- I do not know if any further

12 investigation was done.

13 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not those

14 individuals with -- with a DMV record, or some

15 indication that they might have a driver's license,

16 have received the acknowledgment letter that was sent

17 out?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. They did receive it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Let me ask you to clarify that, please.

23 I want to make sure I fully understand the question.

24 Q. Sure. So based on Mr. Neesby's email, there

25 appears to be some number of the individuals on the

82

1 list that have -- well, it's the last full paragraph

2 says that there are 7,392 of the 10,000 on the list

3 that have a driver's license listed within their voter

4 registration record.

5 My question was whether those individuals,

6 the 7,392, also received the acknowledgment letter

7 asking them whether they required some sort of

8 assistance acquiring the necessary ID?

9 A. Yes. We -- we discussed it and decided,

10 after a very, very brief discussion, that it was very

11 important to send the letter to everybody on that

12 list, whether or not their name appeared to be in the

13 database, because we wanted to make certain that we

14 made every effort that we could to reach the people on

15 that list. We did not exclude anyone because of that.

16 Q. Okay. And outside of the letter that may

17 have been sent in either January or February, have any

18 other efforts been made to contact the individuals on

19 this list -- on the list of 10,000 or more -- that

20 indicated they didn't have the ID either during the

21 primary or general election?

22 A. This is our -- the letter is our effort to

23 contact -- to reach out to see if they need help. If

24 they do need help, we will -- we are contacting them,

25 and will contact them.

83

1 The only other avenue would be if they call

2 us from receipt of this letter, and some have done

3 that, and we have helped them on the phone.

4 Q. Okay. And what sort of inquiries have you

5 received over the phone? Are these individuals that

6 have -- that acknowledged either "I received the

7 letter" or "I'm one of the individuals that, either

8 during the primary or the general election, indicated

9 I didn't have ID"?

10 A. The vast majority of the calls that I have

11 received -- and I get the majority of them -- are

12 people who are telling me that they have a photo ID

13 and are concerned that their name is on the list. And

14 so we just explain to them the process that they went

15 through and what may have happened. And they have all

16 been accepting of that explanation.

17 And the ones that do want help or need more

18 information, we've been able to help on the phone.

19 For example, had several calls from people who are

20 over 70 years old, and they want to know if they can

21 use their expired driver's license for voting, or

22 they -- sorry, let me back up.

23 They start off by saying, "I don't have a

24 photo ID for the purpose of voting. How do I get

25 one?"

84

1 And we qualify that a little bit by asking

2 them a few questions:

3 "Do you have a driver's license?

4 "Yes, I do, but it's expired.

5 "Are you over 70?

6 "Yes. I'm 85.

7 "Was your license unexpired when you turned

8 70?

9 "Yes. It expired two years ago.

10 "Well, you can use that photo ID for voting.

11 That's acceptable. And so you do have a photo ID."

12 And then the other type of call would be,

13 "I do not have a photo ID"; and, after qualification,

14 they do not have a photo ID for voting. And we go

15 into the explanation of how they could get a free

16 photo ID by going to the DMV, and what they need to

17 take; and we offer further assistance, but I have not

18 had anybody request that from me at this point.

19 And then the other couple of calls were of

20 the nature of "I lost my driver's license. How do

21 I get a free photo ID?"

22 Q. And what has your response to that been?

23 A. To go down -- to go to the DMV and tell them

24 what has happened, and that you need a free photo ID

25 for the purpose of voting, and what materials to take




22 (Pages 85 to 88)

85

1 with them.


3 Q. Okay? Do you recall receiving the

4 communication reflected in Exhibit 265?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what is Mr. Neeby -- or Neesby --

7 referring to in this communication?

8 A. He is referring to a list of -- it's a

9 database of names of registered voters who were

10 compared to the Division of Motor Vehicles' database

11 of persons who have a number -- or their name is

12 registered with the Division of Motor Vehicles. And

13 it is to identify -- purpose is to identify persons

14 who are registered to vote but do not have, or may not

15 have, a driver's license or special ID card with the

16 DMV.

17 Q. Okay. He mentions here that in 20- -- or in

18 April 2013, there was a comparison made between the

19 voter registration database and the DMV database.

20 Are you aware of that -- of that analysis or

21 that list?

22 A. I'm aware that that was done.

23 Q. Do you know whether the analysis or list

24 that -- the 291 list that Mr. Neesby is explaining

25 here, is that a completely new matching of those

86

1 databases? Or is that building upon what was done in

2 April 2013?

3 A. I do not know. I'm not involved in that

4 process.

5 Q. Why is the list being referred to as a

6 "291 list"? What is 291?

7 A. I believe that is a nickname for that list

8 of -- that was run in 2013. And it's referencing the

9 number of names that are on it.

10 Q. Have you received additional status updates

11 from Mr. Neesby, or anyone else involved in compiling

12 this list, about the status of this analysis?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When?

15 A. Within the past several weeks.

16 Q. Okay. And from whom?

17 A. From Mr. Neesby.

18 Q. And what is the current status of the list?

19 A. The last status that I heard, or was made

20 aware of, I believe, was -- I want to say one week,

21 but it could have been two weeks, ago. We've had so

22 many days with the snow, I can't remember exactly.

23 That that list is now down to 218,000 names; and that

24 there was another matching field that they ran to try

25 to identify military IDs, but they're not including

87

1 that at this point because -- some reasons that I'm

2 not aware of.

3 So the last I heard is the number is

4 218,000.

5 Q. And what is to be done with the list?

6 A. We are preparing a mailing to go to everyone

7 on this list. The mailing is going to go out -- it's

8 scheduled to go out by the end of this month. It

9 depends on several things coming together, like the

10 printers being on time and the mail house being on

11 time. But --

12 Q. Has that notice been prepared as a final

13 version of that notice?

14 A. I believe we're still in the draft phase. We

15 have completed what we think is a final draft and it's

16 being sent around. It's being sent around today and

17 yesterday. And I don't know that that has been called

18 a final to this point.

19 Q. And what -- what is in the notice? What

20 information is in the notice?

21 A. We are sending out a different type of

22 mailing this time. This is going to be a postcard, a

23 multi-section postcard, that will include a tear-off

24 postcard that is postage-paid back to the State Board

25 of Elections, and on the back side it has a response

88

1 similar to what was mailed out before.

2 The side of the postcard that is going to --

3 on the back of the side that contains the address will

4 have several statements on it. I don't recall the

5 exact wording, but it will say something to the effect

6 of: "In 2016, you will need a photo ID to vote in

7 person at the polls. Here are the forms of acceptable

8 identification." And then it lists the forms of

9 identification.

10 And at the bottom, it says in very bold

11 type: "If you do not have one of these forms of

12 identification, or if we can help you in any way,

13 please return this card." And also it gives them the

14 option of going to our website. We list our website

15 address. And we also list our phone number; in case

16 somebody is unable to mail back the card, they can

17 call us directly.

18 And then, of course, the tear-off portion

19 above that would be the card that they can check the

20 response on: "Yes, I have a photo ID; take me off the

21 list"; or "No, I need help getting a photo ID; here's

22 how to contact me"; or "Here's the type of help

23 I need." And that will be returned to us.

24 Q. Okay. And is the intention to do something

25 similar to what you're doing with the -- let's call it




23 (Pages 89 to 92)

89

1 the acknowledgment of no ID list, where you will then

2 contact the individuals who requested some sort of

3 assistance?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Has the 291 list been shared with any

6 individuals or organizations outside of the State

7 Board of Elections?

8 A. Yes. It is public record.

9 Q. So it's been published in some form at this

10 point?

11 A. That's my understanding, yes.

12 Q. I'm sorry, so the -- you're -- are you

13 referring to the April 2013 list, or the new list

14 that's being developed by Mr. Neesby?

15 A. I'm referring to the 2013 list that you --

16 you had referred to the 297 [sic] list, or whatever

17 that was called, and so that's what I was responding

18 to.

19 Q. Okay. It's my understanding from this email

20 that the current list is also being called the 291

21 list, but let's call it the new list.

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. Has the new list been shared with any

24 individuals or organizations outside of the State

25 Board of Elections?

90

1 A. I do not know.

2 Q. Okay. Do you know whether there are plans to

3 share that list with any individuals or organizations

4 outside of the State Board?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who will the list be shared with?

7 A. It will be shared with any organization or

8 individual that requests it.

9 Q. At this point, have any individuals or

10 organizations requested it? Do they have a pending

11 request for the list?


13 Q. And do you know, at this point, in what form

14 the list would -- will be shared in? What information

15 it will contain?

16 A. My understanding that it will be made

17 available either in text file format or Excel format,

18 depending upon the request of the person asking for

19 it. It will contain any public information that the

20 State Board of Elections is allowed to turn over.

21 Q. Do you know what sort of information that is?

22 A. To the best of my knowledge, it would include

23 the voter's name and address; it would include any

24 variations of their address, such as a mailing address

25 and a physical address; it would include their party;

91

1 and it -- I don't know beyond that exactly what other

2 fields that they can request. Some of them, I know,

3 are protected; some are not. I just don't know.

4 Q. Okay.


6 Q. Okay. Do you -- Mr. Fitzgerald, do you

7 recall receiving this email?

8 A. I do not recall specifically this email.

9 Q. So the email that was forwarded to you from

10 Mr. Lawson by Mr. Roper refers to a "307K list." Do

11 you know what that list is? What that is referring

12 to?

13 A. That list is the same list that you had

14 referred to a minute ago as the 297 [sic] list. The

15 name of the list seems to change with the number of

16 people who are on the list.

17 Q. So I think it was the 291 list from the prior

18 exhibit. And you -- it's your understanding that the

19 291 list is referring to the April 2013 matching of

20 the voter registration database with the DMV database;

21 is that correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. So the message from Mr. Lawson also includes

24 a breakdown of the list of 307,655 voters who did not

25 have a match in the DMV database.

92

1 Has a similar breakdown, a demographic

2 breakdown, been performed of the current list by

3 Mr. Neesby or anyone else?

4 A. Of the 218,000 names? We have asked for that

5 list, and it is in the process of being created. It's

6 on our task list. And --

7 Q. So you will --

8 A. -- it will be -- yes, it will be made. It

9 has not been made to date.

10 Q. Meaning you'll receive similar demographic

11 information about that list -- the new list?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay.

14 Did you have any discussions with anyone

15 about the prior list? Other than individuals sharing

16 information with you about the prior list, did you

17 talk about what was done with the list? Did you have

18 any discussions with anyone about the prior list --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- the 291 list?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was the nature of those discussions?

23 A. We discussed the demographic and geographic

24 breakdown of the list, and we made maps that showed

25 where the concentrations of the people who are on that




24 (Pages 93 to 96)

93

1 list are across the state.

2 And we also were able to see where pockets

3 within a concentrated area -- for example,

4 Charlotte -- on the state map, Charlotte looks like

5 the whole -- all of Charlotte-Mecklenburg is -- has a

6 high concentration, but when we break it down by zip

7 code within Charlotte, we are able to see the pockets

8 within Charlotte of where the people are who are on

9 that list. And we used that information to help craft

10 our approach on how we are going to do outreach to

11 these areas.

12 Q. So what decisions have you made about the

13 approach you're going to take to your outreach based

14 on that information?

15 A. Well, one of the first decisions we made back

16 in the summer of 2014 was to make no -- no concerted

17 effort to talk publicly about photo ID before the

18 general election. And this was based on discussions

19 with groups like Democracy North Carolina, who were

20 afraid that voters were going to get confused with

21 all -- with the election law changes going into effect

22 with '14 -- 2014, and talking about photo ID for 2016.

23 Several of these groups -- I remember specifically

24 Democracy North Carolina saying that they were

25 concerned that voters would be confused and think that

94

1 photo ID was needed for 2014.

2 And in our discussions, we agreed with that

3 assessment, and to avoid any kind of voter confusion,

4 we decided to not go out and start making our push for

5 photo ID in 2016 until after November of 2014.

6 Q. And in terms of -- you said you came up with

7 maps and such of the geographic distribution of this

8 list. What sorts of decisions have you made, as far

9 as targeting specific geographic areas or your

10 outreach efforts, based on those maps?

11 A. We know that the urban areas are our first

12 priority. But we also have learned that we need to

13 pay attention to several -- several counties that are

14 rural and had high numbers showing up.

15 And we also saw that there were high

16 concentrations around military bases, which we took to

17 indicate we need to try to find out if there's a way

18 that we can match this list to a list that would

19 provide us with persons who are in the military who

20 may have military ID, to try to find out if, in fact,

21 they do have military ID and don't need to be on the

22 list, or there are pockets of people who truly do not

23 have a photo ID and we need to reach out to them in

24 these other areas.

25 Q. What is your understanding of the

95

1 requirements to apply for and receive a free ID from

2 the DMV for purposes of voting?

3 A. My understanding is that it is the same

4 process, or very similar, to applying for a driver's

5 license, other than the need to produce proof of

6 liability insurance.

7 Q. And have you or any of the Voter Outreach

8 Team had any involvement in issuance of the free ID?

9 So either coming up with procedures about what would

10 be required for the free ID, or any sort of input

11 you've given to the DMV about the free ID?

12 A. We have met and discussed that with the DMV,

13 and the DMV has -- they are the ones that come up with

14 that process, not the Board of Elections.

15 Q. Well, what was the -- what was discussed

16 during the meeting? Simply that the State Board

17 wouldn't have input? Or what sort of discussion did

18 you have with the DMV?

19 A. The discussion was that the State Board could

20 have input, but it would be the Division of Motor

21 Vehicles that would be the one to determine how photo

22 IDs are issued.

23 Q. And was that one meeting or several meetings?

24 A. I have only been involved with one meeting.

25 There have been other meetings I have not been

96

1 involved with.

2 Q. And when did that occur? The meeting you

3 attended.

4 A. I believe it was August or September of last

5 year.

6 Q. And who was in attendance?

7 A. The Voter Outreach Team and members of the

8 Department of Motor Vehicles.

9 Q. Do you recall who from the Department of

10 Motor Vehicles was there?

11 A. (Inaudible answer.)

12 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, I didn't

13 hear an answer. Did you say "yes" or "no"?

14 THE WITNESS: I said "no."

15 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.


17 Q. Mr. Fitzgerald, what is a -- what has now

18 been marked as Exhibit 267? What is this document?

19 Or what is the information reflected here?

20 A. This is information that the DMV sends to the

21 State Board of Elections that is a count of how many

22 free voter IDs they have issued.

23 Q. Do you know who specifically at the DMV sends

24 this report?

25 A. I do not.




25 (Pages 97 to 100)

97

1 Q. Okay. Do you get these reports on a weekly

2 basis?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. And they reflect counts for that individual

5 week?

6 A. These are cumulative. These are not -- these

7 are not counts per week; these are cumulative over

8 time.

9 Q. So beginning when the DMV started to issue

10 the free ID, this accounts for -- excuse me. That --

11 this accounts for from the beginning of the issuance

12 of the ID until -- until present?

13 A. That is my understanding, yes.

14 Q. Okay. And who else, in addition to you, gets

15 these reports?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Do other members of the Voter Outreach Team

18 receive the reports?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. And what is done with the reports? It's

21 simply for your knowledge? Or is something done with

22 the numbers you receive -- with the data you receive?

23 A. I use these reports to analyze the -- whether

24 or not we're having an increase or a decrease in the

25 number of people requesting the free photo IDs.

98

1 Q. Do you keep that in some sort of record or

2 log?

3 A. I do not, simply because the number is so

4 small at this point, and it does not change much from

5 week to week.

6 Q. So the individuals that have contacted you or

7 you've been in contact with and provided some

8 assistance to, do you keep a log of those individuals?

9 Do you track the number of individuals who have

10 received assistance?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In what form?

13 A. The ones who call and ask questions -- "How

14 do I get a free ID?" for example -- I record their

15 name and phone number, time they called, and the

16 general context of the conversation, and the result of

17 the conversation, and that's the information I keep on

18 that type of inquiry.

19 If we get a more formal inquiry, such as the

20 mailing response, we do keep records of that and

21 record our follow-up.

22 Q. And outside of that, do you -- for instance,

23 do you report that information to anyone at the State

24 Board? "We helped X number of people this week"? Or

25 ...

99

1 A. I do not report that myself. That may get

2 reported some other way. I do not know.

3 Q. You also mentioned the provision of

4 transportation to DMV offices. What is the status of

5 that pro -- is there one program? Are you exploring

6 different avenues by which to provide that sort of

7 transportation? What is the status of that?

8 A. We are in discussion phases right now of how

9 to best put this together. Our goal is to be able to

10 provide free transportation to anyone anywhere in the

11 state. To do that, we are compiling lists of

12 resources per county of -- of potential resources.

13 And then we will have agreements drafted and sent out

14 to these providers, and create a memorandum of

15 understanding or agreement with them.

16 So, to date, we are in the process of

17 identifying who those people are. The memorandums

18 have not been sent out yet. Our goal is to have that

19 process finished by the end of April, I believe --

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. -- is our timeline on that.

22 Q. And what sort of providers have you been

23 reaching out to?

24 A. The providers that offer public transport

25 service to other local/city/county/state agencies.

100

1 For example, in rural -- in rural areas, there are

2 rural transportation providers that have contracts

3 with Division of Social Services to take people back

4 and forth to their employments. So we're reaching out

5 to them.

6 In urban areas, there are bus lines and

7 other transportation routes in place, and we are

8 reaching out to them. And even urban counties that

9 serve rural areas also have that rural component,

10 so ...

11 Q. So are these kind of private companies

12 providing transportation services? Or are these

13 services provided locally by different counties?

14 I'm not sure I understand who these

15 providers are.

16 A. It's a mix.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. In some counties, the County operates the

19 transport system. In other counties, they contract

20 with a private agency to provide that service for

21 them.

22 And in some cities, the transport company is

23 different from the county transport company. And

24 usually in cities, they handle their own

25 transportation and do not contract for it. Like,




26 (Pages 101 to 104)

101

1 Raleigh would have a bus line, but Raleigh operates

2 the bus line.

3 Q. So the programs -- or the agreements you

4 would be setting up with the different -- would the

5 agreements be with the counties? Would the agreements

6 be with the providers? Would it be a contract? Would

7 there be some sort of fee involved? How exactly is

8 the program going to work?

9 A. That's what we are currently in discussion

10 about. We understand that these -- the contracts will

11 be with the providers, and in some cases, the

12 providers would be the city or would be the county or

13 would be a private provider. And we are in discussion

14 as to what kind of a fee structure we should use or

15 offer, and that has not been determined yet.

16 Q. And that would be a contract between the

17 State Board of Elections and the provider, whether it

18 be the County or a private company?

19 A. That's above me. I don't know what kind of

20 legal contract they would make.

21 Q. What's the goal as far as when these services

22 would begin to be offered? Do you have a start date?

23 Or as the agreements are made and transportation is

24 available, they will be offered?

25 A. Well, our target date is -- when we would

102

1 like to have it in place is the end of April.

2 However, this is a huge task --

3 Q. And you'd like to have it in place in every

4 county in the state by April?

5 A. If possible. If not, certainly in the areas

6 where the concentrations are. Mostly urban areas

7 first.

8 Our goal is to roll it out statewide, if we

9 can.

10 Q. And at this point, have you been in touch

11 with at least one or more providers in every county?

12 A. Not in every county.

13 Q. How many counties?

14 A. I don't know. That task is assigned to

15 someone else on the team.

16 Q. Okay. And is the objective to provide this

17 transportation service indefinitely? Or for a limited

18 period of time?

19 A. We have not -- we have not reached a decision

20 on that.

21 Q. What have the Voter Outreach Team's efforts

22 been around DMV mobile units?

23 A. We publish the DMV mobile unit on our

24 website -- the State Board website. We also publish

25 the mobile unit schedule on our new website.

103

1 Q. And why only the mobile unit schedule? Why

2 do you only publish the mobile unit schedule as

3 opposed to the schedule of all DMV offices?

4 A. I don't know the answer to that.

5 Q. Okay. And what is your understanding of the

6 DMV mobile units? Are these units that only operate

7 on a limited schedule?

8 Well, let me -- let me backtrack.

9 What are mobile units? What are DMV mobile

10 units? Are these units that travel around the county?

11 Are they stationary but operate on a limited schedule?

12 What exactly is a DMV mobile unit?

13 A. The DMV mobile unit is a large vehicle, about

14 the size of a Winnebago, I guess, that can go

15 anywhere. Currently, it operates on a fixed-route

16 schedule. They operate in counties where there is not

17 a brick-and-mortar DMV office -- or areas where

18 there's no brick-and-mortar DMV office. And they, for

19 example, would go to Elizabeth City, and would be

20 there on Monday from 9:00 to 5:00, and they would be

21 there on a set schedule.

22 My understanding, too, is that they go, or

23 can go, into urban areas where there -- where there

24 would be a need. Part of our discussion has been

25 centered around that.

104

1 Q. So the schedule changes on a monthly basis?

2 How does the mobile unit schedule work?

3 A. The mobile unit schedule is published by the

4 DMV and is published as a monthly schedule. How it

5 varies by month, I don't know. But it is -- they do

6 create months ahead of time, and publish months at one

7 time. It's not -- they don't create one month and

8 then put that out, and then create another month.

9 It's many months at once.

10 Q. Okay. And other than publishing the mobile

11 unit schedule on the website, are there any special

12 efforts made with the mobile units? Additional

13 materials? Additional support?

14 A. We are in discussion with DMV about using the

15 mobile units to go into areas of high concentration of

16 persons who may not have a photo ID to vote, and to do

17 that in conjunction a State Board of Elections or a --

18 actually, any type of community effort, to -- to bring

19 people in to get a free ID to vote.

20 Someone -- a local organization could have a

21 voter registration drive, for example, and we would

22 offer to partner with them to bring a mobile unit to,

23 for example, South Charlotte, or really anywhere that

24 they wanted to have that, to make it as easy as

25 possible for a person to go and get a photo ID made.




27 (Pages 105 to 108)

105

1 Q. So it's your understanding that all the

2 mobile -- all the DMV mobile units have the capacity

3 to accept an application for a free ID and issue it?

4 A. That is my understanding, yes. They have the

5 same capability as brick and mortar.

6 Q. Okay. Have you or the State Board of

7 Elections have any -- had any involvement with the

8 issuance of birth certificates or marriage licenses by

9 the Register of Deeds?

10 A. I have not. I cannot speak for the Board of

11 Elections. I do not know.

12 Q. So none of your efforts center around either

13 outreach to or discussions with any County Register of

14 Deeds or the State Register of Deeds?

15 A. Our outreach efforts do.

16 I -- I understood that a little differently

17 from the first question.

18 Our outreach efforts very much do. We

19 identify on our website the Register of Deeds Office

20 and the Clerk of Boards Office of each county, and

21 information about how to go to or what to take to the

22 Register of Deeds Office.

23 And we are working on a plan where someone

24 who might have difficulty doing that would be able to

25 call the State Board of Elections, and we would help

106

1 them, to the best that we could, with whatever they

2 need.

3 And if something beyond what we can do --

4 we're trying to set up a program right now where we

5 would use attorney advocates -- we would have attorney

6 advocates available to represent these persons, to

7 assist them to get whatever information that they need

8 to get, and even to get their court documents.

9 Q. So can you tell me a little bit more about

10 those efforts? Who is involved in planning that

11 program of advocates?

12 A. The court -- attorney advocates are

13 attorneys, so our Special Counsel is heading that up.

14 The pattern for this came from a national

15 organization called VoteRiders, who provide this

16 service in other states. And they may come into our

17 state to provide it, but we decided not to wait for

18 them, and we're going to organize attorney advocates

19 on our own.

20 My understanding is that an initial approach

21 has been made to the State Bar Association, and the

22 State Bar Association is wanting to cooperate to make

23 this happen.

24 Q. Do you know what the status of that is, or

25 when it could possibly be available?

107

1 A. I don't know what the status of it is, and

2 it's a -- like most things we're doing, it's ASAP.


4 Q. Okay, Mr. Fitzgerald. What is this document

5 that's Exhibit 268?

6 A. This appears to be an email communicating an

7 early form of -- or rough version, or draft, of rules

8 on photo ID reasonable resemblance for rule-making

9 purposes.

10 Q. And you've been involved in the rule-making

11 around the reasonable resemblance standard?

12 A. I have had -- I've had very little

13 involvement with this. Because it is rule-making, and

14 we have attorneys on the Voter Outreach Team to

15 discuss this, I -- I'm stepping back and working on

16 other things.

17 Q. You've been involved in these meetings?

18 A. I've -- I believe I've only attended two

19 meetings, of all the meetings they've had.

20 Q. Do you know what the status of the

21 rule-making is at this point?

22 A. I do not.

23 Q. Do you know what is entailed in the

24 rule-making, as far as drafting, the need for any

25 public comment, for instance?

108

1 A. Apart from those two steps, I really don't.

2 I know that at some point it has to go to the

3 administrative law judge for review and approval.

4 I'm -- I should say no.

5 Q. Okay. And outside of attending a couple of

6 meetings, what other involvement have you had in the

7 rule-making process?

8 A. I have -- I have provided -- I believe

9 I provided some information about two states that

10 would be a good idea to look at their rule-making

11 process that they came up with. They might want to

12 contact those two states to get information.

13 Q. And what two states are those?

14 A. Mississippi and Texas.

15 Q. And how did you come about the determination

16 that it would be a good idea to contact Mississippi

17 and Texas?

18 A. In part of my earlier efforts, I looked at

19 and spoke with different states on their

20 implementation efforts of photo ID.

21 Mississippi did an exceptional job with

22 their implementation of photo ID, and I felt like

23 their standards of -- they didn't use the same word

24 "reasonable resemblance"; they used another term

25 I cannot recall -- but that would be a good one to




28 (Pages 109 to 112)

109

1 look at.

2 And Texas, I knew from doing research and

3 speaking with them, had difficulties with their rules

4 and language around "reasonable resemblance." They

5 called theirs "substantially similar." And so

6 I wanted to use that as an example to avoid.

7 Q. Okay. And do you recall who specifically you

8 spoke to in either state?

9 A. The person from Mississippi was the Deputy

10 Secretary of State. I cannot remember her name. I do

11 not remember the name of the person in Texas. A

12 similar position, though; I do remember that.

13 Q. And in addition to sharing information about

14 their rule-making, did they provide any other

15 information or guidance?

16 A. Mississippi sent us some examples of

17 documents -- public outreach materials that they had

18 produced and used in their photo ID public education

19 and outreach efforts, such as posters, push cards.

20 There were a couple of forms they used to -- somebody

21 could request a visit, for example, from a team

22 member; they had a form to fill out for that.

23 Q. Okay. And in addition to those two states,

24 have you had communications with any other states

25 regarding your voter ID efforts?

110

1 A. I have not. Other members of the team,

2 I believe, have.

3 Q. Do you know what states?

4 A. I cannot recall.

5 Q. Have you been notified of any specific issues

6 that voters may have encountered when applying for

7 their free ID from DMV?

8 A. How do you mean "notified"?

9 Q. Become aware in some way. Either the voter

10 called the State Board and said, "You know, I had this

11 problem at DMV when I tried to go get the free ID"; or

12 it was relayed through maybe a county board of

13 elections that one of their voters may have had -- may

14 have encountered a problem trying to acquire a free

15 ID?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What sorts of problems have you been notified

18 about?

19 A. One was an instance where the person was told

20 they needed to pay for it. In fact, I think both

21 examples, they were -- they were told that they needed

22 to pay for it; they could not get a free one.

23 Q. Do you recall the details of that specific

24 instance?

25 A. Not specific details, I do not recall, other

111

1 than the person saying that they could not get a free

2 ID because they were told they had to pay for it.

3 Q. Okay.


5 Q. Do you recall receiving the communication in

6 Exhibit 269?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what exactly occurred in this instance?

9 Do you recall?

10 A. I had received a call from someone who could

11 not -- or had difficulty getting a free ID from DMV;

12 and I was sending that up to Special Counsel to -- to

13 pass along to DMV to try to get a resolution.

14 Q. Okay. And do you know what, if any,

15 resolution there was?

16 A. In this particular case, I cannot recall.

17 Q. So in these instances when you refer these

18 types of issues to either Special Counsel or someone

19 else at the -- well, usually what would you do? Would

20 you refer it to Special Counsel, these sorts of

21 complaints or problems that -- that you become aware

22 of or you're notified about?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And after that, there -- do you take any

25 additional steps to follow up?

112

1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay.

3 I just have a couple more questions.

4 Are you aware of what the State Board does

5 when it receives complaints of voter fraud?

6 A. I'm aware that they have an investigative

7 division. I am not aware of specifically the process

8 by which a call gets from the front desk to that

9 division.

10 Q. Okay. And are you involved in any of those

11 efforts?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay.

14 Well, that concludes -- those concludes my

15 questions. Thank you very much, Mr. Fitzgerald.

16 I appreciate your time.

17 A. Thank you.

18 MS. MEZA: Other counsel may have some

19 questions.

20 Why don't we go ahead and take a break,

21 about five minutes, and then you can switch out. Does

22 that work?

23 MS. MURPHY: Um-hum.

24 MS. MEZA: Okay.





29 (Pages 113 to 116)

113

1 2:27 p.m.



4 at 2:37 p.m.

5 EXAMINATION

6 BY MS. EARLS:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fitzgerald. My name is

8 Anita Earls. I represent the League of Women Voters,

9 the Plaintiffs in this matter. I have just a few

10 follow-up questions for you.

11 You mentioned, I think it was this morning,

12 that there was a tribe, the Haliwa-Saponi tribe, that

13 had asked for funding to be able to issue new tribal

14 ID cards. Do you remember that testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My question to you now is if you recall how

17 much money they were seeking from the State Board?

18 A. First of all, they were seeking money to help

19 offset their costs, not to pay for the whole thing

20 or -- but just to help offset the cost a little bit.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. And I do not recall that there was a specific

23 figure mentioned.

24 Q. Did they identify what they anticipated their

25 costs would be?

114

1 A. I don't recall a figure.

2 Q. Do you have a general sense of how many

3 state-recognized tribes in North Carolina may have

4 tribal IDs that don't fit the state law retirement for

5 voter ID?

6 A. We are in the process of determining that.

7 We have met with three of the seven tribes

8 individual -- we've met with all the tribes

9 collectively. We have met with three individually and

10 looked at their cards as a first pass.

11 Q. What three have you met with individually?

12 A. The Lumbee, the Waccamaw, and the Haliwa.

13 Q. And of those three, did their tribal IDs meet

14 the requirements?

15 A. We did not do an official review. We

16 discussed the requirements with them. We looked at

17 their cards. We talked about what might be an issue.

18 But we did not make a determination of anyone's card

19 as to whether or not it would or -- would or would not

20 meet the requirements.

21 Q. Do you anticipate that there will be such a

22 determination at some point?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And who would make that decision?

25 A. The State Board of Elections. The Board

115

1 itself makes that determination after -- or they

2 approve the card.

3 Q. And in terms of deciding whether or not any

4 tribe might get assistance in defraying costs that

5 they might incur to change their tribal ID card, who

6 makes that decision about whether they would get that

7 financial assistance?

8 A. Ultimately, I believe, it would be

9 Kim Strach.

10 Q. And do you know, is that decision still

11 pending with regard to the one request that you've

12 received already?

13 A. I don't know that there has actually been an

14 official request.

15 Q. It's possible there's been one and you're

16 just not aware of it?

17 A. That's certainly possible. But to my

18 knowledge, there has not been an official request made

19 to the State Board of Elections to pay or help defray

20 the cost of a tribal ID card.

21 Q. Then you also talked about the MoU; I believe

22 it was Exhibit 260 that was introduced earlier. But

23 I just want to understand why it was that the Voter

24 Identification Project was requesting that there be

25 that kind of MoU?

116

1 A. From my recollection of the meeting, it is

2 for specifically point number 1 under "Purpose and

3 Scope."

4 Q. And can you explain why, in order to share

5 lists of registered voters who have been contacted,

6 the Voter Identification Project was requesting an

7 MoU?

8 A. From our -- from our standpoint, the MoU is

9 not needed; that's public information.

10 Q. Right.

11 A. I -- from what I recall from the meeting,

12 that was for their benefit, or for their need of

13 sharing their information with us. Because their

14 information, I don't believe, is public record.

15 Q. I see.

16 And referring now to the Voter Outreach

17 Team -- which is yourself, Clyde Roper, Greg Michalek,

18 and Jennifer Faulkner; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you give me the racial background of each

21 member of the Voter Outreach Team?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What is that?

24 A. We are all -- we are all white. I am told

25 that Jennifer has an ethnic background; I am not




30 (Pages 117 to 120)

117

1 exactly sure what that is, though.

2 Q. And I'm going to apologize to the counsel.

3 I mentioned this to Alec before lunch. I just have a

4 couple of exhibits. I don't have copies, but --

5 MS. MURPHY: We can make copies

6 afterwards, if everyone else is okay with that.

7 MS. EARLS: Well, I believe this will be

8 Exhibit 270.


10 BY MS. EARLS:

11 Q. The court reporter has handed you what we've

12 marked as Exhibit 270, and feel free to share that

13 with your counsel as they desire.

14 My question to you is simply if you can

15 identify what that is?

16 A. This appears to be a draft of one of our

17 efforts to produce material to be available to the

18 public.

19 Q. And when you say it's a draft, was it -- to

20 your knowledge, was it actually ever used?

21 A. To my knowledge, this was not printed

22 in masse and used in our formal statewide campaign.

23 I cannot speak to whether or not it may have ever been

24 printed and used individually at some point. I would

25 not have knowledge of that.

118

1 Q. And do you know why it wasn't used more --

2 printed and used more broadly in your statewide

3 campaign?

4 A. The -- the card that we have, that we call

5 the push card --

6 Q. And I believe that that's been introduced

7 already as Exhibit 258. Am I correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. So -- so go ahead.

10 A. The push card contains much of the same

11 information, not quite as much detail as this. And we

12 felt that the push card, being two-sided and more

13 substantially -- the paper it is printed on is glossy

14 and more substantial, we felt that that was a better

15 type of handout material to give to people requesting

16 information.

17 We have also decided to replace this with a

18 two-sided handout that would be an 8 and a half by 11

19 sheet of paper, printed on two sides. We've developed

20 it; we haven't printed it yet.

21 Q. Okay.


23 Q. So, earlier, you were shown Exhibit 266.

24 Take a moment to find 266.

25 A. May I go back and make a comment about this?

119

1 Q. Oh, please.

2 A. I -- since this has the Voter Registration

3 Guide on the back of it, I do not believe that this

4 was produced by our team. It may have been an earlier

5 effort by the State Board of Elections to produce a

6 public document. But our team did not -- I do not

7 believe that our team developed this.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you for that clarification.

9 So now if you -- I want to ask you a couple

10 of follow-up questions to Exhibit 266, if you can find

11 that.

12 And am I right; Exhibit 266 is an email that

13 contains demographic data about the list that had been

14 prepared -- I guess it's variously called the 307 list

15 or the 271 list -- but this was an email back from

16 July of 2014? Is that right? July 9th, 2014?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I'm handing you what I've marked as

19 Exhibit 271, and I just want to ask you -- take a

20 moment to look at that document, and tell me if that

21 is additional data about the same list that you

22 received a few weeks later, in July of 2014.

23 A. I don't. What was your question?

24 MS. MURPHY: I need to take a look at

25 it.

120

1 BY MS. EARLS:

2 Q. So my question is, is the document that's

3 contained in what's been marked as Exhibit 271 -- is

4 that additional demographic data that you received

5 later in July of 2014 about the list of registrants

6 who do not have -- were not matched with the DMV list

7 of people with driver's licenses?

8 A. You're asking if it's the same list?

9 Q. Right. And if it's data that you received.

10 A. Yes, it is data that I received. And, yes,

11 I believe it to be the same list.

12 Q. Okay. Then I want to show you what I think

13 is going to be marked -- marked as Exhibit 272.


15 Q. I'll show counsel first.

16 So if you'd take a minute to look at what's

17 been marked as Exhibit 272.

18 So my question is, is Exhibit 272 also

19 demographic data about the same list that you received

20 in August of 2014?

21 A. Are you asking if this is -- if this list

22 that was in the email on August 1st was the same data

23 as the other one -- the previous one?

24 Q. Right.

25 A. Yes, I believe it is.




31 (Pages 121 to 124)

121

1 Q. And that's information that you received?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay.


5 Q. Then I want to show you Exhibit 273.

6 Would you take a moment to review what's

7 been marked as Exhibit 273.

8 And can you tell me what that document is?

9 A. This appears to be the statistics of that

10 same list. The list appears to have been re-run,

11 because it has a different -- different -- different

12 total.

13 Q. Right. But that's -- and that's data that

14 you received about that list?

15 A. I cannot specifically recall receiving this

16 specific document.

17 Q. I'm sorry, can I just -- it's my only copy.

18 Can I just take a quick look at it?

19 So the fact that it was sent to you, at the

20 top of the email, that's -- you're saying you don't

21 specifically recall receiving it, but it's likely that

22 you got that email?

23 A. I -- I would say that it is likely because my

24 name is on it. I just cannot recall, at this time,

25 seeing that one in particular. But yes.

122

1 MS. MURPHY: Anita, if I could ask, just

2 for the record, there's no State Board Bates stamp on

3 the attachment; do you know why that is?

4 MS. EARLS: I don't. I'm sorry.

5 MS. MEZA: Some of the attachments were

6 produced as native files, so as an Excel or as

7 PowerPoint, and those weren't marked with a Bates

8 number.

9 MS. MURPHY: Okay. Well, we can do

10 that. Thank you.

11 MS. EARLS: And I'm actually about to

12 introduce a document that has the same issue: That is

13 to say, I have the cover email that lists all the

14 attachments; I have all the attachments; but the

15 attachments themselves do not have Bates stamps.

16 MS. MURPHY: Okay.

17 MS. EARLS: And I'm happy to introduce

18 the entire thing so you -- if you want to make sure

19 you have the complete document, or I can simply show

20 him the document and he can identify it if he knows

21 what it is.

22 MS. MURPHY: It's up to you.

23 MS. EARLS: All right. Then let's try

24 the easy way first.

25 MS. MURPHY: Sure.

123


2 BY MS. EARLS:

3 Q. I'm showing you what's been marked as

4 Exhibit 274, and I'd ask you to take a moment to take

5 a look at that.

6 Can you tell me what the document is that's

7 been marked as Exhibit 274?

8 A. Yes. This is a brief PowerPoint presentation

9 that I put together for the purpose of showing the

10 county directors at a state conference meeting in

11 August to introduce our team and what we would be

12 doing.

13 Q. And specifically that PowerPoint that's been

14 marked as Exhibit 274, what -- what did that show --

15 what information did that provide for the county

16 directors?

17 A. Geographic information.

18 Q. And you testified earlier that the

19 demographic data that you were provided about the

20 voters without an ID, you then used to make maps and

21 to target some of your work. Are those the -- are

22 those some of the maps that you made using that data?

23 A. Yes.


25

124

1 BY MS. EARLS:

2 Q. I'm handing you what's been marked as

3 Exhibit 275, and can you tell me what that is?

4 A. Yes. That is another part of that same

5 presentation that we gave to the County Board of

6 Elections directors at the state conference for the

7 directors.

8 Q. And what did that presentation show them?

9 A. It was the intent of the presentation to show

10 them -- to give them some idea of what poll workers

11 would be -- would possibly be looking at in 2016; to

12 show them that there are different types of IDs. It

13 shows them what is acceptable and what's not

14 acceptable. It just gives them some examples.

15 It's not a training. It's just a

16 demonstration to make them aware that in 2016, that

17 the identification of photo IDs is something that will

18 be important.


20 BY MS. EARLS:

21 Q. Can you take a look at what's been marked as

22 Exhibit 276.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you tell us what that exhibit is?

25 What that document is?




32 (Pages 125 to 128)

125

1 A. This is an email in which I respond to a

2 question posed by the director of the Greene County

3 Board of Elections, answering a question that she

4 posed to another member of the State Board of

5 Elections.

6 Q. And what was the nature of her question?

7 A. The nature of her question is centered around

8 what will -- what will the State Board of Elections

9 require the poll workers -- what are the rules -- what

10 are the criteria that poll workers will be using to

11 determine if somebody has photo ID that reasonably

12 resembles the voter?

13 And in particularly, she's asking if -- a

14 question about what if a person has a different name

15 than on the voter registration record?

16 Q. And if I understand your testimony earlier,

17 those rules have still not been finalized. Is that

18 right?

19 A. I testified to the process of rule-making in

20 which we are -- or the State Board of Elections is in

21 the process of rule-making.

22 Q. Right. Have you received other inquiries

23 from county election directors about this question?

24 A. Not specifically from directors.

25 Q. From any county elections board staff?

126

1 A. Not to my knowledge, from election board

2 staff.

3 Q. Who else have you received inquiries about

4 this question from?

5 A. I have received several phone calls from

6 people wanting to know whether or not their photo ID

7 can be used in voting in 2016. And several have said

8 that their name does not exactly match what is on the

9 voter registration record; they want to know if that

10 will be a problem.

11 Q. And so what do you usually tell them?

12 A. I tell them that that has not been determined

13 yet; and that, if they want to be safe, they can

14 change their registration at -- registration to vote,

15 or they can just wait until rule-making comes out

16 later this year and then determine what they want to

17 do then, because, I tell them, it might not be a

18 problem. But I just say to them, "At this time, we

19 just don't know for sure."

20 Q. And I believe you also testified that you --

21 part of the efforts of the Voter Outreach Team, and

22 your efforts in particular, are to let people know

23 what kind of documents they'll need to take with them

24 to the Department of Motor Vehicles to get a free ID

25 for voting; is that right?

127

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And have you received any inquiries from

3 anyone who's told you that they're unable to obtain

4 the necessary documents that the DMV will require?

5 A. I have not received any -- any inquiries for

6 someone saying that they cannot get the documents that

7 they require.


9 BY MS. EARLS:

10 Q. So if you would take a moment to look at

11 what's been marked as Exhibit 277.

12 Am I right; Exhibit 127 is an email chain

13 that includes an email that you've written?

14 A. It does.

15 Q. On that document, there is a portion that's

16 highlighted in green. Would you mind just reading

17 that sentence.

18 A. Certainly.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. (Reading):

21 "In 2016, I am sure that there

22 will be persons appearing as a sex

23 different than their name and sex

24 on the ID card."

25 Q. And that's a sentence you -- a sentence that

128

1 you wrote?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. And what did you mean by that?

4 A. In one of our meetings with Democracy North

5 Carolina, they pointed out to us that we may have a

6 case where somebody will present who has had a sex

7 change operation, and that we need to have a mechanism

8 in place to handle that.

9 And so what I am sharing with Mr. Sims is

10 that -- he was asking a question similar to that, and

11 I was giving him the answer that I thought was the

12 best answer at that time: Is that -- where I say,

13 "I am sure that ..." that's way of speaking. It is

14 not that I'm 100 percent positive, but I -- what

15 I could have said, better, is that, "You can expect

16 that to happen" --

17 Q. Right.

18 A. -- because we were told that by Democracy NC,

19 that that would be something we would need to prepare

20 for, and so we are.

21 Q. And how are you prepared for that?

22 A. We are bringing that up to rule-making.

23 Q. So the determination hasn't finally been made

24 yet?

25 A. Has not.




33 (Pages 129 to 132)

129


2 Q. So you've been handed what's been marked as

3 Exhibit 278. If you'd take a minute to review that.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us what that document is?

6 A. This is an email that I was copied in on,

7 that was originally sent to other members of

8 Pitt County Board of Elections for use within their

9 internal county board employees. They CC'd myself and

10 Joshua Lawson on it.

11 Q. And then you did respond on the -- I believe

12 on the back of where the exhibit sticker is, you

13 responded to that email?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On the -- going back to the front, to where

16 the sticker is, you'll see there's a portion

17 highlighted in green; and my question is just whether

18 you agree with that analysis of the -- of the data for

19 Pitt County of voters who don't have IDs?

20 MS. MURPHY: Objection to form.

21 But you can answer.

22 A. Director Davis makes an analysis -- actually,

23 makes two analyses. He is wondering if this is due to

24 name change causing data not to match up. He also

25 wonders if it is because they are being listed as

130

1 inactive. So he's posing two possibilities there:

2 One is name change; one is inactive/active --

3 Q. And what's the thing that he's trying to

4 explain?

5 A. My recollection of this email, he was trying

6 to identify voters within his county who may not have

7 photo ID, so that he and his staff could reach out to

8 them.

9 Q. And in that email, he notes that female

10 voters are the disproportionately largest group of

11 voters on the list; is that right?

12 A. He comments that females comprise

13 64.44 percent of the group.

14 Q. And so you've identified two explanations

15 that he posits for that. Do you agree with the first

16 explanation?

17 A. I agree to the point that it is a possible

18 explanation.

19 Q. And what about the second explanation?

20 A. I also agree that that is a -- that is a

21 possible explanation for the data.


23 BY MS. EARLS:

24 Q. You've been handed what's been marked as

25 Exhibit 279. And my question for you is just if that

131

1 exhibit contains emails that you received on

2 September 11th and September 12th, 2014.

3 So my question is just, does Exhibit 279

4 contain emails that you received on September 11th and

5 September 12th, 2014?

6 A. It does.

7 MS. EARLS: Thank you. I have no

8 further questions.

9 Did we lose Lis somehow? Because I --

10 MS. FROST: I'm still here.

11 MS. EARLS: Oh, great. Okay. This is

12 Anita. I'm done.

13 So, Lis, I think you're up.

14 MS. FROST: Okay, great. Do you want to

15 take --

16 Mr. Fitzgerald, my name is Lis Frost, and

17 I represent a group of North Carolina voters,

18 including several young voters.

19 Do you want to take a quick break before

20 I start? Or do you want to keep going?

21 THE WITNESS: If I could just take a --

22 like, a two-minute break to get some water.

23 MS. FROST: Okay. That sounds good.

24 How about -- let's make it five minutes.


132

1 3:23 p.m.


3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on record at

4 3:30 p.m.

5 MS. FROST: Okay. Can everyone hear me?

6 MS. MEZA: Yes.

7 MR. DIVECCHI: Yes.

8 MS. EARLS: Yes.

9 MS. FROST: Mr. Fit -- Mr. Fitzgerald,

10 can you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.

12 MS. FROST: Okay. Wonderful.

13 And can the court reporter hear me?

14 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, I can.

15 MS. FROST: Okay. Wonderful.

16 EXAMINATION

17 BY MS. FROST:

18 Q. As I said, my name is Elisabeth Frost. And

19 for the benefit of the court reporter, since I'm not

20 there, I'll spell it. It's E-L-I-S-A-B-E-T-H. Last

21 name is Frost: F-R-O-S-T. I'm with the law firm of

22 Perkins Coie, and we represent a group of North

23 Carolina intervenors -- North Carolina voters who have

24 intervened in this action.

25 I apologize for having to do this over the




34 (Pages 133 to 136)

133

1 phone, but I appreciate your willingness to bear with

2 me. And the good news is I only have one document, so

3 it should be relatively easy.

4 Has the State Board of Elections

5 historically had voter outreach specialists on staff?

6 A. I cannot answer that question with certainty.

7 I do not know.

8 Q. Okay. And you say that your job is

9 time-limited to December 2016?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is this true of all the voter outreach

12 specialists?


14 Q. Okay. Do you know why these jobs are

15 time-limited to December of 2016?

16 A. I do not know why.

17 MS. FROST: Ms. Murphy, can you give

18 Mr. Fitzgerald the document that I sent you guys

19 earlier?

20 MS. MURPHY: Yes.

21 MS. FROST: Thank you.

22 And, I apologize, I lost track of where we

23 are with exhibits. What exhibit number are we on?

24 THE COURT REPORTER: 280.


134

1 MS. FROST: 280? May I ask the court

2 reporter, please, to mark this as Exhibit 280?

3 THE COURT REPORTER: I just marked it.

4 MS. FROST: Perfect. Thank you.

5 BY MS. FROST:

6 Q. And, Mr. Fitzgerald, can you just take a

7 moment and review this document, and let me know when

8 you are through reviewing it.

9 A. I am through.

10 Q. Great. And can you tell me what the document

11 is?

12 A. This is the job posting for the position of

13 Voter Outreach Specialist, Elections Specialist I.

14 Q. Okay. And can you please -- is this a

15 description of your job?

16 A. It is -- it is a similar description to my

17 job. I am an Elections Specialist II. My position is

18 different in that it encompasses everything in

19 Elections Specialist I, or just about everything, plus

20 I supervise, or coordinate the Elections Specialist I

21 positions, the three voter outreach specialists that

22 are -- that work with me.

23 Q. Okay. Thanks.

24 And if you take a look at the description of

25 the work section, does that -- outside the supervision

135

1 that you've just mentioned, does that accurately

2 describe the substantive work that you do?

3 A. This does not appear to do that.

4 Q. Okay. And can you tell me what -- what's

5 left out, or what's -- what's different about what you

6 do?

7 A. This position does not develop business

8 specifications for changes to the statewide election

9 information management system.

10 Q. Okay. Anything else?

11 A. It does not develop business specifications

12 for voter eligibility systems.

13 Q. Okay. Anything else?

14 A. It does do a fair job describing the

15 position, but it does not talk about -- on the second

16 page, the sentence at the top, where it says,

17 "Position will develop and conduct voter eligibility

18 training programs for the County Board of Elections,

19 voter registration agencies, interest groups, and the

20 general public," we assist in that.

21 We assisted in developing the elig -- the

22 training program for the county boards, and we are

23 doing that with the registration agencies. And

24 I believe that more of our emphasis is -- is on the

25 interest groups and the general public, and working

136

1 with them.

2 Q. Gotcha.

3 Now, one of the things that the description

4 of work talks about is voter outreach to North

5 Carolinians who are already registered or who

6 attempted to register but, for some reason, their

7 registration is incomplete. That's the word it uses.

8 Can you describe to me the circumstances

9 under which a voter's registration might be incomplete

10 so that they might be contacted by a voter outreach

11 specialist?

12 A. One example of that would be to identify

13 voters who have moved out of county or moved out of

14 state.

15 Q. And is that something that you do?

16 A. We have not done that as -- as of yet.

17 Q. Okay. Is that something that you're planning

18 to do?

19 A. We have not specifically discussed a plan to

20 do that in the near future.

21 Q. I guess the -- maybe I should have asked a

22 more basic question.

23 Do you reach out to voters whose voter's

24 registration is incomplete?

25 A. The point to which we research the voter




35 (Pages 137 to 140)

137

1 registration database to find people whose

2 registration is incomplete is something that we are

3 not engaged at at this time. That is something that

4 we have decided to put off until closer to the

5 election.

6 However, we do reach out to people who --

7 who fall into that category. But we are -- we are

8 made aware of that through another -- another method,

9 such as the -- such as the -- the process by which we

10 identified people at the polls who did not have a

11 photo ID to vote.

12 Q. And does your office intend, at some point

13 closer to the election, to contact -- I guess to

14 review the North Carolina rules and contact every

15 North Carolina voter whose registration is incomplete

16 in some way?

17 A. That decision would be made above my level.

18 Q. Okay. As far as you know, that decision has

19 not yet been made?

20 A. As far as I know, that decision has not been

21 made.

22 Q. You talked, a little bit earlier, about a

23 request for a proposal for, I think -- it sounded like

24 a public relations or marketing firm to do sort of

25 outreach and social media and the like.

138

1 Do you know if that request for a proposal

2 has been issued?

3 A. It has been issued, and -- and closed to

4 responses --

5 Q. Okay. So the contract's been awarded? Or it

6 has been closed and you're now reviewing --

7 A. It's closed. We -- I'm sorry.

8 It has closed, and we are in the process of

9 reviewing. To the -- to the exact process, we have

10 received the -- we have received the responses to the

11 applications and are -- we have set a date to review

12 them; and that date to review them is tomorrow.

13 Q. Okay. And do you have a timeline for when

14 you think you'll award the contract?

15 A. We do. However, the timeline is affected by

16 the state department of purchasing and contracts,

17 which we have no control over.

18 So we are going to review the submissions

19 tomorrow, and if we cannot make a decision tomorrow

20 over which company that we want to go with, we will

21 meet again on that and review the second round.

22 And then when we do make our decision, we

23 will send that to state purchasing and contracts --

24 our recommendation -- and they will be the ones who

25 determine when the award is given.

139

1 Q. And, typically, how long does that process

2 take?

3 A. I do not know.

4 Q. Do you know, has the State also issued a

5 request for proposal for digital outdoor billboard

6 advertising to inform the public about changes that

7 were made to the voter law?

8 A. I do not know the details of the -- the

9 details by which that project was awarded.

10 Q. Okay. But it sounds familiar?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Do you -- and it sounds like --

13 I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds

14 like you think it was awarded?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And do you have any idea, have any billboards

17 been prepared?

18 A. That -- that contract that I believe you are

19 referring to was awarded back in the fall of last

20 year, and those billboards ran in the fall of last

21 year. Is that the one you're referring to?

22 Q. No. I'm referring to one that was issued in

23 the fall of last year, but it looks like to me like it

24 was not just exclusive to the fall. But you correct

25 me if I'm wrong. It seems to me like it was an

140

1 ongoing contract?

2 A. To the best of my knowledge, that contract

3 was for a specific number of billboards and time

4 frame. I --

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. -- do not -- I do not know the -- I was not

7 involved in the exact process of writing the RFP.

8 I was involved, with the company that was awarded the

9 contract, in determining how many billboards we would

10 run and the time period, and what messages would be on

11 those boards.

12 Q. And currently do you have any plans to do a

13 similar billboard project, say, in advance of the 2016

14 election?

15 A. Yes, we do.

16 Q. And will you be issuing a new RFP for that or

17 will you go with the same entity?

18 A. The RFP for the billboards is part of the RFP

19 that we first talked about that was put out for bid

20 last month, and the bid is closed and we are reviewing

21 tomorrow.

22 Q. Okay. I see.

23 And it sounds like, in the first round of

24 the billboards, you were involved with decisions about

25 where to put the billboards and the like. Will you be




36 (Pages 141 to 144)

141

1 involved in those decisions again?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And how did you make those decisions? What

4 criteria did you consider?

5 A. The company that we worked with was very

6 specific about the criteria for which the billboards

7 would be selected, and they were very specific about

8 the messages that we could run for the dollar amount

9 that we had selected to go with.

10 Q. And do you have documentation somewhere about

11 what messages were run and where they were run?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And are you aware that one of the issues in

14 this lawsuit is how House Bill 589 has impacted young

15 voters in particular?

16 A. I'm not sure that I understand the question.

17 Q. Well, I represent -- I'm just curious as to

18 whether or not you've had any -- outside of

19 conversations with legal counsel, have you had any

20 conversations with anyone about the claims in this

21 lawsuit particular to young voters?

22 A. To the best of my recollection, I -- I have

23 not had those specific conversations.

24 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any studies that the

25 State Board of Elections have done about the impact

142

1 that any of the new voting laws could have on young

2 voters in particular?

3 A. I'm not.

4 Q. Are you aware of any studies that anyone has

5 done about the impact that any of these laws could

6 have on young voters in particular?

7 A. I'm not.

8 Q. And do you know how many young people in

9 North Carolina lack the photo ID that will be required

10 to vote as of 2016?

11 A. I do not.

12 Q. And when we were talking earlier -- we've

13 often referred to it as the soft rollout of voter ID,

14 but I don't know how you refer to it, so I want to

15 make sure it's clear what I'm talking about.

16 Both the no voter ID acknowledgment forms

17 and then, it sounds like, this mailing that followed,

18 I think of that as the soft rollout. You may think of

19 it as something else. But when I'm talking about the

20 soft rollout, that's what I'm talking about. And

21 I just wanted to confirm, that soft rollout would have

22 only reached registered voters; right?

23 A. The mailing that we have done to date went

24 out to roughly 10,300, 10,500 persons who voted at the

25 polls and signed a line that said that they do not

143

1 have a photo ID to vote. So I would -- I do believe

2 that they would be registered voters. Yes.

3 Q. So it wouldn't tell us anything about North

4 Carolina's newest and youngest voters, the ones who

5 will be voting in their first election in 2016; right?

6 A. That particular mailing does not.

7 Q. What have you done, if anything, to reach out

8 to that population about the new voter ID

9 requirements?

10 MR. MCKNIGHT: Object to the form.

11 You can answer.

12 A. At this point, we are in the process of

13 meeting with the UNC General Administration to develop

14 a program by which we can get messages and information

15 and give presentations to the various universities

16 across North Carolina.

17 We are in the process of reaching out to the

18 community college system to do the same thing. And

19 coming -- and later on in the year, we will be

20 reaching out to regional and local groups that

21 represent young people.

22 Q. And when you say "we," who do you mean?

23 A. The Voter Outreach Team.

24 Q. And have you personally been involved in

25 those conversations?

144

1 A. I've been involved with the conversation with

2 the UNC system.

3 Q. Okay. And can you tell me what stage are

4 those conversations at?

5 A. I cannot, because I believe that there was a

6 conversation that took place yesterday that I was not

7 involved with -- or maybe taking place today. But

8 I -- I can say the contact has been made, and interest

9 expressed --

10 Q. And who else at the State Board of Elections

11 has been involved in those conversations?

12 A. Greg Michalek. And I do not know if others

13 have been involved.

14 Q. And who's the point of contact at UNC?


16 Q. Who have you been talking to at UNC?

17 A. I have just been involved with conversations

18 with Greg Michalek about his progress with this.

19 Q. Okay. So you actually haven't personally

20 been involved in the conversations with UNC?

21 A. I have not.

22 Q. And earlier, you talked about maps that were

23 created that helped you to craft your approach with

24 voter ID outreach, to help to identify certain areas

25 where you discovered there were perhaps higher




37 (Pages 145 to 148)

145

1 concentrations of people who might lack photo ID.

2 Do you remember that testimony?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I believe you said some of the areas you

5 referenced were urban areas and military areas.

6 What about educational institutions? Did

7 you look at whether you saw higher concentrations

8 there? Is that something you noticed?

9 A. There was a higher concentration in the Boone

10 area. To a lesser extent --

11 Q. And how is that -- go ahead. I'm sorry, go

12 ahead.

13 A. I'm sorry, I cannot say for certainty if

14 there were other areas.

15 Q. Okay. And how did that play into your voter

16 outreach approach?

17 A. It is in our plan to reach out to the

18 colleges through the University of North Carolina

19 General Administration Office to effect a program that

20 will reach out to the various colleges within the

21 University of North Carolina system.

22 Q. Okay. And what about the colleges that

23 aren't in the University of North Carolina system?

24 A. We have -- we have a plan to reach out to the

25 community college system as well, and also to the

146

1 association that represents the private colleges.

2 Q. Okay. And do you have documentation of these

3 plans?

4 A. I do not.

5 Q. And is this something that Mr. Michalek -- is

6 he involved in all of these plans?

7 A. I can't say for certainty if he is. I'm just

8 aware of the -- that he is involved with the one for

9 the University of North Carolina.

10 Q. Okay. Who's involved with the one for the

11 community colleges?

12 A. I believe that is Mr. Michalek. I cannot say

13 for certain.

14 Q. Okay. And what about the organization that

15 represents the private schools?

16 A. I believe that is also Mr. Michalek's

17 responsibility.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. I can't say for certain.

20 Q. And who would know for certain?

21 A. Well, Mr. Michalek would know for certain,

22 and Special Counsel would know for certain.

23 Q. And what -- are you aware of any plans to

24 reach out to young voters who are not in college about

25 the voter ID requirements?

147

1 A. At this time, I am not aware of any specific

2 plans to do that.

3 Q. If an out-of-state student wants to get voter

4 ID, as part of the new voter ID program in North

5 Carolina, do they have to surrender their out-of-state

6 driver's license?

7 A. To the best of my knowledge, that is a

8 conversation that they must have with the Department

9 of Motor Vehicles. That's not a Board of Election

10 issue.

11 Q. So it's not something you're educating young

12 people of North Carolina about?

13 A. Not at this time.

14 Q. And do you know, will voters need to present

15 photo ID that includes their address as reflected on

16 the voter registration rules?

17 A. I'm sorry. Say that one more time, please.

18 Q. Sorry.

19 Will voters at -- when photo I -- when photo

20 ID becomes the law, in 2016, will voters need to

21 present photo ID that includes their address as

22 reflected on the voter registration rules?

23 A. That has not been determined. That will be

24 determined in rule-making.

25 Q. In your voter outreach efforts, I think

148

1 I understood you to say that you haven't been doing

2 voter outreach about same-day registration, or the

3 repealed same-day registration; is that correct?

4 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last part very

5 well.

6 Q. I apologize.

7 I think I understood you, but I just want to

8 make sure I'm hearing you correctly, that in your

9 voter outreach efforts, you have not been focusing on

10 the impact of the repeal of same-day registration; is

11 that correct?

12 A. We do not give a presentation on the impact

13 of the law. We present the law as it is written. And

14 if, in our presentations to groups, we -- if the group

15 requests it, or they ask for it, or we ask them if

16 they would like for to us talk about it, we will -- we

17 will talk about changes to the election law in

18 general, and give an overview of that, which would

19 include that, but we don't talk about the impact of

20 it.

21 Q. And when you talk about the repeal of

22 same-day registration, what is your message?

23 A. Our message is that you must register 25 days

24 before the election.

25 Q. And do you plan, in the outreach efforts that


mosierms

Highlight



38 (Pages 149 to 152)

149

1 are planned to educate young voters, in particular

2 with the colleges, to talk about the repeal of

3 same-day registration?

4 A. We present the changes to the election law as

5 they are written in the statute, or as they were

6 written in the law, and we plan to continue to do

7 that.

8 Q. I guess I'm asking a slightly different

9 question, and that was, you seemed to say that you

10 present these things if the constituency -- the

11 particular constituency requests it. And what I'm

12 trying to figure out is if you make decisions about

13 particular constituencies that perhaps might be

14 particularly impacted by a law, in presenting it, or

15 if the onus is completely on the constituency to ask

16 you for that education?

17 A. No. We present to different -- different

18 organizations, different groups, and we talk to them

19 about what they would like for us to talk about.

20 I would say to them, "Do you want us to talk about the

21 changes to the election law? Do you want to us talk

22 about photo ID? Do you want to us talk about both?"

23 They -- they may be a group that is already

24 very aware of photo ID, and they might not want us to

25 talk about that. Or they might want us to talk about

150

1 both.

2 We don't withhold anything, and we give

3 them -- we tell them what we can talk about and what

4 we can present on. But oftentimes we are given a time

5 frame in which to deliver information, and oftentimes

6 that time frame is limited, so we have to ask the

7 person organizing the event what they would like

8 presented to them.

9 Q. But when I heard you talking today -- this is

10 where I'm coming from, just so you understand -- it

11 sounds to me like your office has been very proactive

12 about some of the voter ID stuff; right? You have

13 these posters; you have these mailings; you have these

14 forms.

15 And I'm wondering if, with any of the other

16 changes to the election laws, you've engaged in any of

17 this sort of self-initiated voter outreach, or if it's

18 entirely based on what the organizations you talk to

19 ask you to talk to them about?

20 A. Our outreach is both. We respond to any

21 request to present information; and oftentimes that is

22 a phone call or an email sent to our office. But we

23 have been very, very active in going out into the

24 community, into the state, and saying to organizations

25 and associations and other groups that we would like

151

1 to come and present to your group; we would like to

2 come to talk to you about what information we have and

3 whether or not that would be something you would be

4 interested in.

5 So we do both.

6 Q. And when you say -- when you talk about the

7 changes to the election law, what exactly are you

8 talking about?

9 A few questions back, I was asking you about

10 specifically same-day registration, and I heard your

11 answer as, you know, we offer them -- we can say,

12 "We'll talk to you about changes in the election law

13 or we'll talk to you about voter ID."

14 So I'm wondering what's on the menu when

15 you're telling them, "We'll talk to you about the

16 changes to the election law"?

17 A. We cover the major changes. There were a lot

18 of changes in the House Bill, most of -- or some of

19 which very few people would have an interest in. But

20 we certainly talk about the changes in early voting.

21 We talk about registering 25 days before the election.

22 We talk about -- talk a lot about absentee and

23 curbside voting, for persons with disabilities. We

24 talk about out-of-precinct voting, out-of-county

25 voting, and just about any -- any -- any law change

152

1 having to do with voting at the polls is something

2 that we would talk about.

3 Q. And have you created materials similar to

4 those you've created for the voter ID voter outreach

5 on each of those topics?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Outside of what we've talked about,

8 are you aware of anything else that the State Board of

9 Elections has done to reach out to young voters about

10 the voting law changes?

11 A. Nothing comes to mind at the moment.

12 Q. And is the Voter Outreach Team doing anything

13 to specifically encourage the registration and

14 participation of young voters in North Carolina?

15 A. Two things just came to mind.

16 Q. Okay. What are those?

17 A. If I can go back to your last question.

18 Q. Please.

19 A. The Voter Outreach Team participated in a

20 voter registration drive at North Carolina Wesleyan

21 community college, sponsored by one of the civic

22 fraternities. I believe it was Alpha Phi Alpha. I'm

23 not sure. And by "participated," I mean we were there

24 with our materials, and we gave a presentation on

25 stage. I did not participate myself in that event.


mosierms

Highlight



39 (Pages 153 to 156)

153

1 A similar --

2 Q. And who initiated -- I'm sorry. Who

3 initiated that contact?

4 A. I do not know.

5 Q. And do you know how many people registered as

6 part of that?

7 A. I do not know that.

8 Q. Okay. And was -- was the DMV mobile voter ID

9 services there?


11 Q. Do you know how many people attended?

12 A. I believe the figure was around 150.

13 Q. Okay. And have you done any -- has your

14 office done anything similar anywhere else?

15 A. There was a similar event, and I cannot

16 remember the exact location of that event. And --

17 Q. Okay. What made it similar?

18 A. It was -- it was a civic fraternity in a

19 college holding a voter registration drive.

20 Q. And again, do you know if the fraternity

21 initiated that contact or if it was your office?

22 A. They contacted us.

23 Q. Okay. And do you know how many people

24 attended?

25 A. I don't.

154

1 Q. And how many people registered?

2 A. I do not.

3 Q. And whether the DMV's mobile voter ID program

4 was present?

5 A. I do not know.

6 Q. Any other events like that that you are aware

7 of?

8 A. There was an election law forum held at Wake

9 Forest University, sponsored by the Wake Forest

10 University law school, in which we participated along

11 with groups like Democracy North Carolina, the League

12 of Women Voters, and several other organizations

13 sponsoring that event, where we presented information

14 about the voting law changes.

15 Q. And approximately when was that?

16 A. It was in October. It was the same week as

17 their fair.

18 Q. And how many people attended?

19 A. About 45.

20 Q. And did you have your registration -- was

21 it -- was the option to register available at that

22 meeting?

23 A. No. That was not the -- that was not the

24 focus of that particular event.

25 Q. Okay. So, similarly, I assume that DMV's

155

1 mobile ID program was not there as well?

2 A. It was not.

3 Q. Any other events like that come to mind?

4 A. Not at the moment.

5 Q. Okay. And when you said you remembered two

6 things, were those the two fraternity events?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm almost done. Let me just look at my

9 notes.

10 Are you aware of any members of the public

11 being confused or concerned about the impact of the

12 new laws, particularly as they relate to young voters?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell me about that?

15 A. I've received several calls from parents who

16 want to know how their son or daughter should register

17 to vote: Should they register at the university or

18 should they register at home.

19 Q. And what do you tell them?

20 A. I tell them that the -- that their son or

21 daughter who is over 18 needs to make that

22 determination on their own based upon which location

23 they consider to be their resident -- residency to

24 which they plan to return, or plan to live.

25 Q. And do you know what has sparked these calls?

156

1 A. We got these calls around the time of the

2 general election, and they were -- I don't know what

3 sparked them. I just know that that was the period of

4 time that we got these calls.

5 We also had several inquiries when we were

6 operating our booth at the North Carolina State Fair

7 for the 11 days of the fair. We had -- we had people

8 stopping by with all kinds of questions, and some of

9 them were parents wanting to know about how to

10 register their college student.

11 MS. FROST: All right. That's all

12 I have. Thank you very much for your time.

13 I appreciate it.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

15 MS. MURPHY: Can we just take a break

16 for about five minutes, go off the record, and we can

17 see if we have any follow-up?


19 4:10 p.m.



22 at 4:22 p.m.

23 MS. MURPHY: Okay. I have no questions

24 for the Defendants. So I think we're done.

25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Is that it? All




40 (Pages 157 to 160)

157

1 right. Just one second.

2 This concludes the deposition of Mr. Ted

3 Fitzgerald. The time going off record is 4:22 p.m.

4 (SIGNATURE RESERVED)

5 (DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 4:22 P.M.)

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158

1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T2

3 I, TED FITZGERALD, declare under the4 penalties of perjury under the State of North Carolina5 that I have read the foregoing 160 pages, which6 contain a correct transcription of answers made by me7 to the questions therein recorded, with the8 exception(s) and/or additions(s) reflected on the9 correction sheet attached hereto, if any.

10 Signed this the ____day of __________, 2015.11

12

________________________________13

TED FITZGERALD14

State of:15

County of:16

Subscribed and sworn to before me17

this ____ day of ____________, 2015.18

19

________________________________20

Notary Public21

My commission expires:22

23

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25

159


2 Case Name: NAACP v. McCrory/LWV v. NC/US v. NC

3 Witness Name: Ted Fitzgerald

4 Deposition Date: 3/3/2015


6 _____/_____|___________________|____________________

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23

24

25 Signature: Date:

160

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

) C E R T I F I C A T E2 COUNTY OF ORANGE )3 I, Sophie Brock, Court Reporter and Notary4 Public, the officer before whom the foregoing5 proceeding was conducted, do hereby certify that the6 witness(es) whose testimony appears in the foregoing7 proceeding were duly sworn by me; that the testimony8 of said witness(es) were taken by me to the best of my9 ability and thereafter transcribed under my

10 supervision; and that the foregoing pages, inclusive,11 constitute a true and accurate transcription of the12 testimony of the witness(es).13 I do further certify that I am neither14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the15 parties to this action, and further, that I am not a16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel17 employed by the parties thereof, nor financially or18 otherwise interested in the outcome of said action.19 This the 10th day of March, 2015.20

21

22

___________________________23

Sophie Brock, RPR, CRR24 Notary Number: 20083400000125


LYNNETTE GARTH June 5, 2015


1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1



NORTH CAROLINA STATE )

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )

ET AL, )

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) CASE NO. 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in )

his official capacity as )

the Governor of North )

Carolina, et al, )

Defendants. )

-----------------------------


NORTH CAROLINA, ET AL, )

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. )

)

LOUIS M. DUKE, ET AL, ) CASE NO. 1:13-CV-660

Plaintiffs/ )

Intervenors, )

)

vs. )

)

THE STATE OF NORTH )

CAROLINA, ET AL, )

Defendants. )

-----------------------------


Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) CASE NO. 1:13-CV-861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH )

CAROLINA, ET AL, )

Defendants. )

VIDEO DEPOSITION OF

LYNNETTE GARTH

2

1 ________________________________________________

2 VIDEO DEPOSITION OF

3 LYNNETTE GARTH

4 3:52 P.M.

5 FRIDAY, JUNE 5, 2015

________________________________________________

6

ACLU OF NORTH CAROLINA

7

727 W. HARGETT STREET, SUITE 105

8

RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA

9

10

11

12 By: Lisa A. Wheeler, RPR, CRR

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2 Counsel for the Plaintiff League of Women Voters of

North Carolina, et al:3

Southern Coalition for Social Justice4 BY: Allison Riggs

1415 West Highway 54, Suite 1015 Durham, North Carolina 27707


8 Counsel for the Defendant Patrick Lloyd McCrory, inhis official capacity as the Governor of North

9 Carolina:10 Bowers Law Office

BY: Karl S. Bowers, Jr.11 1419 Pendleton Street

Columbia, South Carolina 2920112 (803) 260-4124

[email protected]

14 Also Present: Billy Ruffin, Videographer Emily Seawell

15 Hillary Li Lauren Emery

16 Kathleen Perkins17

18

19 Reported By: Discovery Court Reporters and Legal Videographers

20 BY: Lisa A. Wheeler, RPR, CRR 4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1000

21 Raleigh, NC 27609 (919) 649-9998

22

23

24 --oOo--25

4

1 I N D E X

2 PAGE

3 EXAMINATION BY MS. RIGGS 6

4 EXAMINATION BY MR. BOWERS 16

5

6

7 E X H I B I T S

8 (No exhibits marked.)

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25




2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at

3 3:52 p.m. Today is June 5th, 2015. This is

4 the video deposition of Lynnette Garth taken

5 in the matter of North Carolina State

6 Conference of the NAACP, et al, Plaintiffs,

7 versus Patrick Lloyd McCrory, in his official

8 capacity as the Governor of North Carolina,

9 et al, Defendants, in the United States

10 District Court for the Middle District of

11 North Carolina, Civil Action Number

12 1:13-CV-658 and all related matters.

13 Will counsel please identify themselves

14 for the record.

15 MS. RIGGS: My name is Allison Riggs.

16 I'm from -- I'm from the Southern Coalition

17 for Social Justice in Durham and I represent

18 the League of Women Voters.

19 MR. BOWERS: And good afternoon,

20 Ms. Garth. We met earlier. My name is Butch

21 Bowers. I'm a lawyer from Columbia, South

22 Carolina and I'm here representing Governor

23 McCrory in the litigation that brings us all

24 here.

25 THE WITNESS: Okay.

6

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court

2 reporter please swear in the witness.

3 LYNNETTE GARTH,

4 having been first sworn or affirmed by the court

5 reporter and Notary Public to tell the truth, the

6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified

7 as follows:

8 EXAMINATION

9 BY MS. RIGGS:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Garth.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. Can you state your full name for the record.

13 A. Lynnette Ann Garth.

14 Q. Okay. And, Ms. Garth, what's your date of

15 birth?

16 A. /70. of 1970.

17 Q. Okay. And where do you live?

18 A. 6644 Lake Hill Drive, Apartment G, Raleigh,

19 North Carolina.

20 Q. Okay. Ms. Garth, have you ever had your

21 deposition taken before?

22 A. Yes, a long time ago.

23 Q. Okay. Well, I'll just run over real quick

24 how --

25 A. Okay.

7

1 Q. -- how it works. The court reporter is

2 typing what we say so if the answer to my

3 question or Mr. Bowers' question is a yes or

4 no, if you can say yes or no rather than

5 nodding --

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. -- or shaking your head. We do that

8 conversationally.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. And when we are in casual conversation too

11 it's sometimes easy to talk over each other,

12 but that makes her job very hard because she

13 can't simultaneously write down what we're

14 saying.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. So I'll do my very best to wait to make sure

17 you're done talking before I start talking

18 and if you can do the same, that would be

19 great.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. And everything you -- you -- you got sworn in

22 by the court reporter so you're -- it's like

23 you're testifying in trial. If you need to

24 take a break, just let me know. We'll finish

25 the question we're on and we'll take a break.

8

1 I don't anticipate this is going to last long

2 enough to need a break, but if you do, let me

3 know and you're free to take a drink of water

4 while we --

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. -- chat. That's fine.

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. Ms. Garth, where did you grow up?

9 A. New Jersey.

10 Q. What part of New Jersey?

11 A. Basically East Orange and Newark.

12 Q. Okay. And what brought you down here to

13 North Carolina?

14 A. Most of my family migrated down here over the

15 years so I was the last so I came.

16 Q. And what do you do for a living?

17 A. I'm a bus operator and I'm also a driver for

18 a shuttle service.

19 Q. Okay. When -- when did you move down here to

20 Raleigh?

21 A. September of 2014.

22 Q. And have you only ever lived in Wake County?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What -- when -- do you remember when you

25 first registered to vote ever?

REDACTED REDACTED




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 A. Yes. When I was 18 when I got my driver's

2 license I registered to vote there --

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. -- at the DMV in New Jersey.

5 Q. In New Jersey?

6 A. Uh-huh.

7 Q. And did you then vote in New Jersey?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Do you remember, were you a regular

10 voter?

11 A. Honestly, presidential elections always.

12 Mayor -- mayoral elections, I may have missed

13 a few over the years, but I have done some,

14 yeah, for the city I lived in at the time.

15 Q. Okay. When you moved down to North Carolina

16 did you get a North Carolina driver's

17 license?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And when you went to the DMV, do you remember

20 what DMV you went to?

21 A. Yes. It was on Spring Forest and Atlantic.

22 Q. And that's in Raleigh?

23 A. And it's in Raleigh, yes.

24 Q. Do you remember about when that was?

25 A. It had to be -- it had to be -- it was in --

10

1 it was in September still. I'm going to say

2 the end of September, maybe, yeah, towards

3 the end of September because I got a job

4 right away when I got here so I had to change

5 my license right away so...

6 Q. Okay. Because you were --

7 A. I'm a driver.

8 Q. -- operating --

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. When you went to the DMV did they ask

11 you if you wanted to register to vote?

12 A. They actually gave me a form and asked me,

13 yes.

14 Q. And did you fill it out?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Okay. And then -- and you gave it back to

17 them?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Okay. Did you ever get a voter registration

20 form in the mail -- I mean, a voter

21 registration card in the mail?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Ms. Garth, did you want to vote in the

24 November 2014 elections?

25 A. Yes, I did.

11

1 Q. Did you try to vote?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Can you tell me what happened when you tried

4 to vote.

5 A. I was working at the time and I heard

6 something on the radio as far as early

7 voting. I called them. They told me I

8 wasn't registered to vote. And I told them

9 that I did fill out a form because my

10 daughter did it as well and she got

11 everything in the mail so I was like, where's

12 mine, you know, and I never received anything

13 in the mail. And then she -- they told me --

14 they didn't tell me anything -- oh, they told

15 me that I could try at the early voter

16 registration place to try to see if I'm on

17 the books and I went and they told me that I

18 wasn't on the books so -- and that was it.

19 And then I just gave up after that. And I

20 heard the -- something on the radio about it

21 and then I just called to see, you know, what

22 happened, why I wasn't registered or anything

23 so...

24 Q. Do you remember what early voting site you

25 went to?

12

1 A. I don't remember exactly where it was. It

2 was on Six Forks close to my home. It was

3 right there. I don't remember the address.

4 I wish I would have -- but, you know, I was

5 newer to this -- so I didn't really remember

6 where it was, but I do -- do know it was off

7 of Six Forks --

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. -- right in my area.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. So it was very close to me.

12 Q. So you called someone before you went there

13 to see what -- well, tell me who you called

14 and --

15 A. It was something on the radio I heard about

16 early registration -- about early voting, the

17 chance to vote early. The company I was

18 working for keeps me busy so I said that was

19 a good idea for me. So I called them. I

20 don't remember the names. I apologize. I

21 just don't remember any names right now.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. Do you remember -- had early voting already

25 started at that point do you --




4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 A. It had already started, yes.

2 Q. Okay. Do you remember what day you went to

3 the early voting site, day of the week

4 anyway?

5 A. Gosh, it was in the week -- it was mid week.

6 It might have been a Tuesday or a Wednesday.

7 I'm not sure. I'm -- I'm not sure. I

8 apologize. I don't remember.

9 Q. That's fine. It was -- it was a while ago.

10 When -- when you called them to ask --

11 whoever you called, when you called to ask

12 about early voting, was that the first time

13 you'd heard -- you'd heard that you weren't

14 registered?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. That is the first time I heard that.

18 Q. And when you went to the poll -- to the early

19 voting site they told you the same thing?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Did they offer you a provisional

22 ballot when you went to the early voting

23 site?

24 A. No, they didn't.

25 Q. Did your -- did your daughter end up voting

14

1 do you know?

2 A. She didn't. She works evenings so she -- I

3 don't think she got a chance to go, but she

4 didn't vote, no.

5 Q. But you're -- you're certain she -- she's

6 registered?

7 A. I saw every -- I saw her papers and

8 everything and I thought maybe -- you know,

9 because my cousin usually got the mail

10 because I was staying with my grandmother, I

11 thought she maybe lost mine or left it in the

12 car but, you know, I always thought that I

13 was registered, you know, so -- but I was

14 like, okay, here's hers, where's mine. So I

15 didn't really pay that no -- any mind. You

16 know, it was just, you know, the instructions

17 on how to vote and stuff like that so I

18 didn't really need that but...

19 Q. Did your daughter go to the DMV when you went

20 to the DMV?

21 A. No. She didn't go the same time. It was the

22 same time during the week though but not the

23 same day.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. But she didn't -- she didn't go the same

15

1 time.

2 Q. Ms. Garth, how did you feel not being able to

3 vote this past November?

4 A. I felt bad. I felt bad about it.

5 Q. Were you frustrated?

6 A. A little frustrated, yes, because it did

7 shock me when I found out that I wasn't

8 registered and I know I filled out something

9 at DMV.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. I know I did.

12 Q. Why is -- why is voting important to you?

13 MR. BOWERS: Objection. You can

14 answer.

15 BY MR. RIGGS:

16 Q. You can answer.

17 A. Well, I have a granddaughter and, you know,

18 we just moved here and I'm hoping that, you

19 know -- I want things to be good for her

20 while we're here. You know, I want -- I'm

21 hoping so it's important to me in a lot of

22 ways.

23 MS. RIGGS: Okay. Ms. Garth, those are

24 all the questions I have. Mr. Bowers is

25 going to ask you a few questions now.

16


2 EXAMINATION

3 BY MR. BOWERS:

4 Q. Ms. Garth, thank you for your time here

5 today.

6 A. Uh-huh.

7 Q. I want to go back to the day that you got

8 your driver's license --

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. -- at the DMV. And you said that was --

11 well, tell me when -- when that was.

12 A. It was --

13 Q. Sometime in September 2014?

14 A. Yes. Early October, towards the end of

15 September. It was around that time because I

16 got here in September -- early September. I

17 got here before my birthday actually so it

18 might have been the first of September that I

19 got here.

20 Q. Since your birthday's the it

21 would have to be --

22 A. Yeah. I know I celebrated with them, yeah.

23 In fact, I did because I was actually very

24 tired and they took me out so I remember

25 that --

REDACTED




5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. -- because I had drove, you know, all the way

3 here by myself so...

4 Q. So you moved to Wake County?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On September 1st?

7 A. Uh-huh.

8 Q. Yes?

9 A. Uh-huh. Yes. I'm sorry.

10 Q. That's okay. September 1st, 2014?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then do you remember if it was still in

13 the month of September when you went to

14 change your license?

15 A. Yes, it was.

16 Q. Okay. When did you start your job?

17 A. I started with my Jersey license so it was

18 like the 28th. I believe it was September

19 28th.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So started your job on 9/28 with your Jersey

23 license?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. So that means you went to the DMV

18

1 sometime after the 28th, correct?

2 A. No. I actually went before because I

3 transferred here from -- with another

4 company.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I didn't -- I'm sorry I didn't tell you all

7 that. I did transfer with another company

8 called First Transit.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. They actually accepted my license as it was.

11 It was a C license. When I got down here

12 they had bigger buses. They drive like the

13 Wolfline transit buses.

14 Q. Yes, ma'am.

15 A. So I had to upgrade to a B. So I got that

16 process started right away. Even though they

17 weren't training at the time for me to

18 upgrade to my B, I went ahead and took the

19 steps to start doing that myself. So I know

20 I went before I started the other job --

21 Q. Okay. I --

22 A. -- because I got that license like right

23 after and then I gave them that copy of that

24 license.

25 Q. Okay. I've never had a commercial license --

19

1 A. Oh, okay.

2 Q. -- so --

3 A. I'm sorry.

4 Q. That's okay. So I want to try to understand

5 the process. And maybe I'm just confused

6 but -- so you -- you went to the DMV like mid

7 September?

8 A. Yeah. Mid September to make the exchange to

9 exchange my license to -- like as far as

10 getting my permits here. It's different than

11 New Jersey here. You have to go and you have

12 to -- you have to take the test for your

13 extra endorsements --

14 Q. Right.

15 A. -- and they give you permits. So I'd just

16 started that process saying that I'm going to

17 upgrade to a B but I'm changing my license

18 over as well. So I did have a C license in

19 North Carolina when I first started so it was

20 mid September.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. But, you know, I was in the process of

23 getting all that together so when they start

24 training then I would be ready.

25 Q. Okay.

20

1 A. Because the job I had when I first got here,

2 it wasn't important for me to upgrade to a B.

3 Q. I got it.

4 A. This is a 16-passenger van so there's no need

5 to do it for that.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. But I was in the process -- I knew eventually

8 they would start training.

9 Q. Okay. I understand. And so when you went to

10 the DMV the first time --

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. -- sometime in September --

13 A. Uh-huh.

14 Q. -- is that when they asked you if you wanted

15 to register to vote?

16 A. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Yes?

18 A. Uh-huh. Yes. I'm sorry.

19 Q. That's all right.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. For her sake. Okay. And then your daughter

22 went after you or before you?

23 A. She went after me. She went after me.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. I don't know if she actually did it there or




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 at work but she did -- she was registered.

2 She's a registered voter here.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. How old is she?

6 A. She's 24.

7 Q. Okay. And did she move with you from New

8 Jersey?

9 A. Yeah. Yeah. She came -- she came a month

10 before me.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. She came here a month before me so she moved

13 in August. Her job started on the 16th of

14 August so they left like around the 12th or

15 the 14th from Jersey.

16 Q. Okay. And was she registered to vote in

17 Jersey do you know?

18 A. Yeah, she was.

19 Q. Okay. And so do you know if she went to the

20 DMV in North Carolina to change her voter

21 registration or if she went to a Board of

22 Elections or something else, a voter

23 registration drive or you just don't know?

24 A. I'm not sure.

25 Q. Okay.

22

1 A. I don't know if she did anything like that.

2 Q. That's fine. But you do know --

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. -- I think you testified that she got her

5 voter registration -- voter registration card

6 before you did, correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you have one now?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you -- you've never received a voter

11 registration card?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Have you called to check on it?

14 A. No, not at this time. No, I didn't.

15 Q. Okay. So you testified earlier that you

16 actually saw your daughter's voter

17 registration documents, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And this is before you went to early

20 vote, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And you knew you didn't have yours,

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you think about calling the DMV or the

23

1 Board of Elections to say, hey, I don't have

2 my voting documents?

3 A. No, I didn't think about it at the time

4 because I just --

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. -- thought it was an oversight. I thought

7 that maybe mine was going to come eventually

8 or whatever. I didn't --

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. -- really think about it.

11 Q. So you went to -- to early vote?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you remember the day? I know we talked

14 about that but just --

15 A. I don't -- I know it was the middle of the

16 week.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. I don't remember exactly the day.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I don't.

21 Q. Was it October?

22 A. Yes, it was in early October.

23 Q. Okay. And you -- they told you you couldn't

24 vote?

25 A. Yes.

24

1 Q. And did they give you a reason why?

2 A. They said I wasn't registered.

3 Q. Okay. And did you tell them that you thought

4 you had registered?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And then what did they do?

7 A. He was just like, sorry, he didn't see me on

8 the books and that was it. And, you know, I

9 basically just left. I mean --

10 Q. Did he give you a number to call to check?

11 A. No. I actually got the number off the radio

12 myself --

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. -- or heard it on the radio a couple of --

15 couple of days later.

16 Q. And who did you call? Do you -- do you

17 remember who that was?

18 A. I don't remember --

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. -- who I spoke to first about it, but he did

21 check again for me and he said that I'm not

22 registered.

23 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge as we sit here

24 today on June the 5th, 2015 you're still in

25 the registered to vote?


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7 (Pages 25 to 28)

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1 A. To my knowledge I'm not registered.2 Q. Okay. Do you have the ability to -- to call3 the Board of Elections and check on it?4 A. I guess I can get the number and look5 everything up. I'm -- again, I'm new to the6 state so I didn't know how things went, you7 know.8 Q. Right.9 A. I -- it was different.

10 Q. Okay.11 A. It was different here.12 Q. Okay. You talked about the -- the laws13 for -- for commercial driver's licenses are14 different in North Carolina than Jersey, is15 that correct?16 A. Uh-huh.17 Q. Yes?18 A. Yes. I'm sorry.19 Q. Okay. That's all right. How did you learn20 that those laws were different?21 A. Well, actually, the man at the DM -- the --22 somebody at the DMV, he helped me --23 Q. Uh-huh.24 A. -- because, you know, there were certain25 things -- I had to get insurance here first

26

1 and then, you know, as far as -- you know,

2 there was just different things he was

3 helping me with. There was a lot of back and

4 forth. I mean, I knew the man by heart by --

5 you know, by name by the time I was done with

6 the DMV, but he helped me out a lot there as

7 far as learning how they do things here as

8 far as, you know, changing your license over,

9 upgrading your license, like that.

10 Q. Okay. Do you -- do you want to be registered

11 to vote?

12 A. Yes. I would like to be.

13 Q. Okay. How did you find out about -- well,

14 strike that.

15 When did you first learn that there was

16 a new law in North Carolina regarding voting?

17 A. I heard about it on the radio. I didn't

18 know. You know, I didn't know anything at

19 first, but I heard about it on the radio --

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. -- as far as -- I spend a lot of time in the

22 car so -- van so --

23 Q. All right.

24 A. Sorry. I heard about it on the radio.

25 Q. When did you -- when did you first hear that

27

1 there was a lawsuit about the new law if you

2 recall?

3 A. When Allison called me.

4 Q. Okay. When did she call you?

5 A. I don't remember the date. I don't remember.

6 I honestly don't remember. I'm sorry.

7 But --

8 Q. That's okay. Was it --

9 A. She was the first one I spoke to about it.

10 Q. Was it in 2015?

11 A. No. Was it? Yeah. Yeah. It was 2015. I'm

12 sorry. Yes.

13 Q. So it was after you tried to vote?

14 A. Uh-huh.

15 Q. Yes?

16 A. Uh-huh. Yes. Good gracious, yes.

17 Q. That's okay. After -- after you tried to

18 vote in October 2014 --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- sometime in 2015 Ms. Riggs called you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. I think it was -- I don't remember. I'm not

24 going to say exactly because I really don't

25 remember --

28

1 Q. That's okay.

2 A. -- how -- how -- how long before because

3 we -- I don't -- yeah, I don't remember when

4 we actually talked.

5 Q. Do you know how she got your name or number?

6 A. Yes. From the people that I called. I

7 believe --

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. -- yeah, from the people that I called about

10 the situation.

11 Q. Okay. Was that the Board of -- so did you --

12 was that the State Board of Elections that

13 you called?

14 A. I can't really say.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I'm sorry. I can't say.

17 Q. No. That's okay. That's okay. What did you

18 do to prepare for today's deposition, if

19 anything?

20 A. Nothing actually.

21 Q. Did you talk to --

22 A. I've been working since 6 this morning so...

23 Q. Did you talk to Ms. Riggs?

24 A. I did speak to Ms. Riggs, yes. Uh-huh.

25 Q. Okay. Do you know -- do you know if maybe


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8 (Pages 29 to 31)

29

1 you filled out something wrong on the forms

2 that they gave you at DMV?

3 MR. RIGGS: Objection to form. You can

4 answer the question.

5 A. I don't think so. I mean, it's not the first

6 time I saw that form. You know, I've filled

7 them out before.

8 Q. Right.

9 A. There wasn't anything different about it.

10 Q. Okay. You don't know -- you don't know why

11 you didn't get a voter registration card?

12 A. No. I don't have any idea.

13 Q. Okay. When you went to vote and they told

14 you you weren't registered, did you ask for a


16 A. I wasn't aware of one. I didn't ask.

17 Q. Okay. Are you going to try to get registered

18 to vote?

19 A. I'm going to try, yeah.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. I'm going to try to get registered, yes.

22 Q. You can call Ms. Riggs and get her to help

23 you.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I bet she knows how to do it.

30

1 A. Okay. Yes.

2 MR. BOWERS: Ms. Garth, I don't have

3 any more questions for you.


5 MR. BOWERS: Thank you for your time.


7 MR. RIGGS: That's it.

8 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.

9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now going off

10 the record. The time is 4:14 p.m. This is

11 the end of the deposition.

12 [SIGNATURE WAIVED]


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31


) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF WAKE )

3

4 I, LISA A. WHEELER, RPR, CRR, Court

5 Reporter and Notary Public, the officer before whom

6 the foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby

7 certify that the witness whose testimony appears in

8 the foregoing proceeding was duly sworn by me; that

9 the testimony of said witness was taken by me to

10 the best of my ability and thereafter transcribed

11 by me; and that the foregoing pages, inclusive,

12 constitute a true and accurate transcription of the

13 testimony of the witness.

14 I do further certify that I am neither

15 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the

16 parties to this action and, further, that I am not

17 a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel

18 employed by the parties thereof, nor financially or

19 otherwise interested in the outcome of said action.

20 This the 16th day of June, 2015.

21

22 ____________________________

23 Lisa A. Wheeler, RPR, CRR

24 Notary Public #19981350007

25


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·3· ·NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE· · ·)· · ·OF THE NAACP, et al,· · · · · · · · )·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · Plaintiffs,· · · · · · · )·5· · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· ·1:13CV658· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·6· ·PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his· · · ·)· · ·official capacity as Governor of· · )·7· ·North Carolina, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·8· · · · · · · Defendants.· · · · · · · )· · ·____________________________________)·9· · ·LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF· · · · · ·)10· ·NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)11· · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)12· · ·and· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)13· ·LOUIS M. DUKE, et al.,· · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)14· · · · · · ·Plaintiffs-Intervenors,· ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)15· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV660· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )17· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)18· ·____________________________________)


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Page 2·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME 1

·2· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF ELIZABETH GIGNAC


·4· · · · · · · ·Fayetteville, North Carolina

·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·June 4, 2015

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· · · · · · · · · ·Court Reporter

11· · · · · · · · ·Notary Public

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Page 3·1· · · · · · · · · APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:

·2· ·Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:

·3· · · · · ·Allison J. Riggs, Esquire

· · · · · · ·Southern Coalition for Social Justice

·4· · · · · ·1415 West Highway 54, Suite 101

· · · · · · ·Durham, NC 27707

·5· · · · · ·(919) 323-3380

· · · · · · ·[email protected]

·6

·7· ·Counsel for the Defendants:

·8· · · · · ·Michael McKnight, Esquire

· · · · · · ·OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.

·9· · · · · ·4208 Six Forks Road

· · · · · · ·Post Office Box 31608

10· · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina· 27622

· · · · · · ·(919) 787-9700

11· · · · · ·[email protected]

12· · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF ELIZABETH GIGNAC, taken by the

13· ·Defendants, at the Holiday Inn Bordeaux, 1707 Owen Drive,

14· ·Fayetteville, North Carolina, on the 4th day of June, 2015

15· ·at 1:06 p.m. before Lynn A. Ruggiro, Notary Public and

16· ·Shorthand Reporter.

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Page 4·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CONTENTS

·2· ·THE WITNESS: Elizabeth Gignac· · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION

·3· ·BY:· Mr. McKnight· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5, 28

·4· ·BY: Ms. Riggs· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·26

·5



·8· ·Exhibit 1· · ·NC Public Voter Information· · · · · · 8

·9· ·Exhibit 2· · ·Email dated October 21, 2014· · · · · 17

10· ·Exhibit 3· · ·Email string dated October 21, 2014· ·22

11· ·Exhibit 4· · ·Letter dated October 23, 2014· · · · ·23

12· ·Exhibit 5· · · Email string dated October 21, 2014· 26

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Page 5·1· · · · · · · · · · ELIZABETH GIGNAC,

·2· · ·having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

·3· · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS

·4· · · · · ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

·5· · · · Q.· ·Good afternoon, Ms. Gignac.· My name is

·6· ·Michael McKnight and I'm an attorney representing

·7· ·the State Board of Elections, defendants in one of

·8· ·three lawsuits that's currently pending in federal

·9· ·court in the Middle District of North Carolina

10· ·challenging a law known as Session Law 2013-381.

11· ·It's also known as House Bill 589 and some people

12· ·refer to it as VIVA.· And there are a lot of

13· ·provisions of that law but one of the provisions

14· ·that I believe we're here to talk about today

15· ·involves something called same day registration

16· ·which is a topic that the League of Women Voters has

17· ·indicated that you may have some knowledge of.· And

18· ·so that's why we're taking your deposition today

19· ·because the League of Women Voters has identified

20· ·you as a possible witness in one of the three

21· ·lawsuits where, I guess, all three of them will be

22· ·tried in July and you may be a possible witness for

23· ·them during that trial.

24· · · · · · ·Have you ever had your deposition taken

25· ·before, Ms. Gignac?



Page 6·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And when was that?

·3· · · · A.· ·I've given several depositions related to

·4· ·medical and criminal cases.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what is your occupation?

·6· · · · A.· ·I'm an emergency physician.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And where do you work?

·8· · · · A.· ·I work at Southeastern Regional Medical

·9· ·Center in Lumberton, North Carolina.

10· · · · Q.· ·How long have you done that?

11· · · · A.· ·I've been an emergency physician -- well,

12· ·I graduated from medical school in 2005 and I

13· ·finished my residency in 2009.

14· · · · Q.· ·And have you worked at Southeastern since

15· ·you finished your residency?

16· · · · A.· ·No, I began there in August 2014.

17· · · · Q.· ·And it sounds like you have some

18· ·significant experience with depositions then, so you

19· ·understand how all this works, just a few reminders

20· ·though about the process.

21· · · · · · ·I'm going to try to certainly wait for you

22· ·to finish your answer before I ask you another

23· ·question and if you'll in turn wait for me to finish

24· ·my question before you answer it, that will allow

25· ·the court reporter to keep a clean record here and

Page 7·1· ·allow the parties and the court to clearly

·2· ·understand what was said.

·3· · · · · · ·You understand, of course, that you have

·4· ·an obligation to testify truthfully.· In the course

·5· ·of today's proceeding, I don't mean by any of my

·6· ·questions to suggest there's any right or wrong

·7· ·answer to any of my questions today.· Is that clear?

·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And certainly you're familiar with

10· ·this probably from your previous experience but Ms.

11· ·Riggs may object to one or more of my questions

12· ·today, and typically, you can go ahead and answer

13· ·that question, unless one party suggests that you

14· ·should not answer that question.· And then finally

15· ·I'm glad to take a break at any time that you need

16· ·to, I know it's a little warm in this room today, so

17· ·if we need to get out and stretch our legs or you

18· ·need some water or something else, I'll be glad to

19· ·do that, but if I have a question pending, we'll try

20· ·to work through that question before we take a

21· ·break.· Is that fair?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And Ms. Gignac, I want to hand you

24· ·a document that I'm going to mark as Gignac Exhibit

25· ·1.

Page 8·1· · · · · · ·(DEFENDANT'S GIGNAC EXHIBIT NUMBER 1 WAS

·2· ·MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

·3· · · · Q.· ·And I want you to take a look at it and

·4· ·let me know if it's a document that you think you've

·5· ·seen before, after you have a chance to review it?

·6· · · · A.· ·It appears to be a voter registration and

·7· ·-- or my voter registration and I believe I have a

·8· ·copy of this at home.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know where you first saw

10· ·this or where you obtained a copy of this document?

11· · · · A.· ·I believe I received this in the mail.

12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, what this document is is

13· ·almost exactly what you've indicated, which is -- it

14· ·is a public voter information profile that is

15· ·available on the North Carolina State Board of

16· ·Elections website.· So the way I got this is I typed

17· ·your name in and this is public information that

18· ·comes up and I think you're exactly right that this

19· ·is the same information that would have been

20· ·included in your voter registration card.

21· · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so that brings me to my next

23· ·question, which is, did you, in fact, receive a

24· ·voter registration card at some point?

25· · · · A.· ·I did.

Page 9·1· · · · Q.· ·And when did you receive that voter

·2· ·registration card?

·3· · · · A.· ·I had -- I think I have the mailing with

·4· ·me, may I show you that?

·5· · · · Q.· ·Certainly, certainly.

·6· · · · A.· ·Okay.· So I have with me, on October

·7· ·23rd I received a notice --

·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·9· · · · A.· ·-- that I was registered to vote.

10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that form, if I may see it, all

11· ·right, thank you.

12· · · · · · ·This is a letter from the Cumberland

13· ·County Board of Elections and it's dated October

14· ·23rd, 2014.· And the subject line says, "Notice of

15· ·Late Voter Registration."· And it says the voter

16· ·registration deadline was 25 days prior to an

17· ·election and that deadline was October 10th, 2014 at

18· ·5:00 p.m. for the 2014 general election.· Is that

19· ·your understanding of what the registration deadline

20· ·was for 2014?

21· · · · A.· ·I -- once I received -- or once I received

22· ·the letter, I was aware of that.

23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· And other than this

24· ·letter, I'll give that to Ms. Riggs and maybe at

25· ·some point we can take a break and get a copy of



Page 10·1· ·that or afterwards, that's fine, maybe we should

·2· ·take a break at some point, but in any event, other

·3· ·than that letter, did you receive any other

·4· ·documents from the Cumberland County Board of

·5· ·Elections?

·6· · · · A.· ·I received a reply to the email that I

·7· ·sent.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And what email did you send?

·9· · · · A.· ·I have a copy of that, if you'd like it.

10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

11· · · · A.· ·I sent an email to -- once I realized that

12· ·I was not registered to vote in time, I contacted

13· ·the Board of Elections, Cumberland Board of

14· ·Elections and I sent an email to the Director of the

15· ·Cumberland County Board of Elections, Terri

16· ·Robertson, and I sent that on October 21st stating

17· ·my concern that when I applied for my driver's

18· ·license and -- and registered to vote, that it had

19· ·not been processed.· And that was on October, I

20· ·mean, sorry, that was on August 26, 2014.

21· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Michael, that email was

22· · · · produced by defendants, if you want a copy of

23· · · · it --

24· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Okay.

25· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· -- we can mark that rather

Page 11·1· · · · than make a copy of the email she brought,

·2· · · · although she --

·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I have a reply here that I

·4· · · · don't know if you have or not.

·5· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· No.

·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Does it have a reply?· Okay.

·7· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Okay, well, why don't we

·8· · · · take a moment and go off the record.

·9· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON A SHORT RECESS IS TAKEN.)

10· ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

11· · · · Q.· ·So Ms. Gignac, I want to back up a moment

12· ·from where we were before we took our break.

13· · · · · · ·How long have you been registered to vote

14· ·in North Carolina?

15· · · · A.· ·Since October 21st, 2014.

16· · · · Q.· ·And before you registered to vote in North

17· ·Carolina, were you registered to vote in any other

18· ·state?

19· · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · Q.· ·What state was that?

21· · · · A.· ·Florida.

22· · · · Q.· ·And on Exhibit 1 here, there's an address

23· ·listed of 2612 Bennington Road in Fayetteville; is

24· ·that right?

25· · · · A.· ·Yes.

Page 12·1· · · · Q.· ·How long have you lived at that address?

·2· · · · A.· ·Since July 2014.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And before you lived at that address, what

·4· ·address did you live at?

·5· · · · A.· ·2930 Northeast 39th street, Lighthouse

·6· ·Point, Florida, 33064.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And before you moved to North Carolina in

·8· ·July of 2014, had you always lived in Florida or did

·9· ·you live somewhere else?

10· · · · A.· ·I lived in Michigan.

11· · · · Q.· ·When did you move to Florida from

12· ·Michigan?

13· · · · A.· ·When?

14· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, when?

15· · · · A.· ·2009.

16· · · · Q.· ·And did you do that for your residency; is

17· ·that right?

18· · · · A.· ·I completed all of my medical training in

19· ·Michigan in 2009 and then I moved to Florida in 2009

20· ·to start my career.

21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And before 2009, how long did you

22· ·live in Michigan?

23· · · · A.· ·Since I was born.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I don't think I've asked you

25· ·your date of birth yet, what is that?

Page 13·1· · · · A.· · , 1978.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And were you ever registered to vote in

·3· ·Michigan?

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· ·How did you register to vote when you

·6· ·registered to vote in Michigan?

·7· · · · A.· ·I believe it was when I turned 18, I mean,

·8· ·I don't remember exactly.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember how you registered, did

10· ·you fill out a form and send it in or did you

11· ·register at DMV in Michigan or do you remember or

12· ·whatever Michigan's DMV's equivalent may be?

13· · · · A.· ·I don't remember.

14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you vote in elections in

15· ·Michigan?

16· · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · Q.· ·And did you register to vote in Florida

18· ·when you moved there?

19· · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember how you registered when

21· ·you registered to vote in Florida?

22· · · · A.· ·I believe it was at the DMV.

23· · · · Q.· ·Did you vote in elections in Florida?

24· · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· ·And then when you moved to North Carolina,

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Page 14·1· ·I know you said you had been registered since

·2· ·October 21st, 2014 as this form states, but you

·3· ·gave me some correspondence that indicates that you

·4· ·thought you had registered earlier than that; is

·5· ·that right?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Objection to form.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Tell me about after you moved to

·9· ·North Carolina, when was the first time you

10· ·attempted to register to vote?

11· · · · A.· ·October 26, 2014.

12· · · · Q.· ·October 26th?

13· · · · A.· ·I believe so, is that what I wrote in

14· ·there?· Yeah, I believe it was October 26th

15· ·according to my email.· I'm sorry, August 26th,

16· ·sorry.

17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· That's why I was a

18· ·little bit confused.

19· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

20· · · · Q.· ·All right, August 26, 2014.· And how did

21· ·you attempt to register on August 26, 2014?

22· · · · A.· ·I went to the DMV and I applied for a

23· ·driver's license and I was asked if I wanted to

24· ·register to vote and I said yes.

25· · · · Q.· ·And after you were asked if you wanted to

Page 15·1· ·register to vote, did you have to complete a voter

·2· ·registration form?

·3· · · · A.· ·They did not offer me one.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Did you review any type of voter

·5· ·registration form?

·6· · · · A.· ·No.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And did you -- did you sign anything with

·8· ·regard to registering to go vote at all?

·9· · · · A.· ·I don't remember, I signed multiple forms,

10· ·so.....

11· · · · Q.· · And why did you believe that you had

12· ·registered to vote at DMV on August 26, 2014?

13· · · · A.· ·Because I was asked if I wanted to

14· ·register to vote and I said yes.

15· · · · Q.· ·And after you said that, did the DMV

16· ·representative you talked to say anything else?

17· · · · A.· ·I don't remember her reply but she

18· ·continued on with -- on the computer and with the

19· ·multiple forms that I had to fill out to become

20· ·registered for my driver's license and all of that.

21· · · · Q.· ·And did you receive your driver's license

22· ·in the mail at some time after your visit to DMV on

23· ·August 26, 2014?

24· · · · A.· ·I did.

25· · · · Q.· ·And did you ever receive a voter

Page 16·1· ·registration card after that point?

·2· · · · A.· ·No.

·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And when you registered to

·4· ·vote in either Florida or Michigan before, had you

·5· ·received a voter registration form in either of

·6· ·those states, I'm sorry, register -- let me strike

·7· ·that and rephrase.

·8· · · · · · ·Did you receive a voter registration card

·9· ·in either Florida or Michigan or both when you

10· ·registered to vote there?

11· · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · Q.· ·And so in North Carolina, after you

13· ·thought you had registered to vote on August 2014,

14· ·were you surprised that you did not receive a voter

15· ·registration card in the mail?

16· · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Objection to form.

18· · · · · · ·Go ahead.

19· · · · A.· ·Yes, I was surprised, that's why I made an

20· ·inquiry on October 21st as to where my voter

21· ·registration card was.

22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so I want to take a look now at

23· ·these documents that you have handed me, and I

24· ·believe the first one that I want to refer to is an

25· ·email that I want to mark as Gignac Exhibit 2 and it

Page 17·1· ·is dated October 21st, 2014.

·2· · · · · · ·(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NUMBER GIGNAC 2 WAS

·3· ·MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

·4· · · · Q.· ·So this document has been marked as Gignac

·5· ·Exhibit 2.· Ms. Gignac, is this a document that you

·6· ·have just handed me today?

·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· This appears to be a true and

·9· ·accurate copy of that document?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And can you identify for me

12· ·what this document is that you've handed me?

13· · · · A.· ·This is a copy of the email that I sent to

14· ·Terri Robertson, who is the Director of Cumberland

15· ·County Board of Elections.

16· · · · Q.· ·And was this email the first inquiry you

17· ·had made about your voter registration status since

18· ·your visit to DMV in August of 2014?

19· · · · A.· ·No.

20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And before that, what other

21· ·inquiries did you make?

22· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Objection.

23· · · · A.· ·The same day I called -- I did an on-line

24· ·inquiry as it appears you did for me and did not

25· ·find myself as a registered voter.· So then I called



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Page 18·1· ·the Board of Elections to see if they could find me

·2· ·in the system, and they had no record of me being a

·3· ·registered voter.

·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And did you have any trouble

·5· ·using the on-line system to look yourself up?

·6· · · · A.· ·No.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you have any trouble

·8· ·finding the telephone number of the Board of

·9· ·Elections to call?

10· · · · A.· ·I believe I found it on an internet

11· ·search.

12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so what prompted you to look up

13· ·your registration on-line first in October?

14· · · · A.· ·Because I knew the election was coming

15· ·soon and I wanted to make sure I was registered.

16· · · · Q.· ·And so you didn't find yourself and then

17· ·you looked up the number for the Board of Elections

18· ·and you called and who did you speak with there, if

19· ·you remember?

20· · · · A.· ·I don't remember their name, it was a

21· ·representative and she also tried searching me and

22· ·couldn't find me in the database.

23· · · · Q.· ·What did you tell that representative?

24· · · · A.· ·I --

25· · · · Q.· ·To the best of your recollection, and I

Page 19·1· ·know it's hard to remember, this has been a long

·2· ·time ago.

·3· · · · A.· ·I believe I asked who I could inquire with

·4· ·or who I could file a complaint with and I believe

·5· ·they gave me the number or the email address for Ms.

·6· ·Robertson.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you ask that representative

·8· ·whether she could find you in the voter registration

·9· ·rolls?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·And what did that person tell you?

12· · · · A.· ·That I was not a registered voter.

13· · · · Q.· ·And so they gave you the email address for

14· ·Ms. Robertson and you sent this email to Ms.

15· ·Robertson that's marked as Exhibit 2; is that right?

16· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I also went back to the DMV to see

17· ·if they could tell me what happened.

18· · · · Q.· ·What DMV office was that?

19· · · · A.· ·That was the one on Elm Street, 815 Elm

20· ·Street in Fayetteville.

21· · · · Q.· ·And you said your record was accessed by a

22· ·Representative Evans at the DMV; is that right?

23· · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·And Representative Evans, is that the

25· ·person you spoke with in October when you went back

Page 20·1· ·to DMV or is that the person who processed you

·2· ·initially?

·3· · · · A.· ·That was who was in the office when I went

·4· ·in on October 21st.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And I see that from this email, you state

·6· ·that Representative Evans told you that you were --

·7· ·you had specifically declined to register to vote

·8· ·when you went in in August of 2014?

·9· · · · A.· ·Yes, he said when he opened my record

10· ·under the inquiry about desire to register to vote,

11· ·I had answered no.

12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you describe this as an

13· ·egregious error?

14· · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then you also mention potential

16· ·corruption?

17· · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I mean and so let me ask you

19· ·about that statement.· This error that you say

20· ·happened with DMV, is that an error that you think

21· ·could happen to anybody or -- or just people like

22· ·you?

23· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Objection to form.

24· · · · Q.· ·Well, let me ask a different question.· Is

25· ·that sort of an error that could happen to anybody

Page 21·1· ·regardless of their race, for example?

·2· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Objection, calls for

·3· · · · speculation.

·4· · · · · · ·You can still answer if you can.

·5· · · · A.· ·It could happen to anybody, yes.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And you don't believe that this error had

·7· ·anything to do with your race, do you?

·8· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Objection to form.

·9· · · · · · ·You can answer.

10· · · · A.· ·I don't know.

11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And for the record, you're white;

12· ·is that right?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you also raised the issue of

15· ·potential corruption, and I just want to ask you

16· ·about that a little bit.· I mean is there something

17· ·that makes you think that there's -- there was some

18· ·sort of corruption at DMV based upon your experience

19· ·with them?

20· · · · A.· ·I don't know, I don't -- I just can't

21· ·understand how my answer of yes was recorded as no.

22· · · · Q.· ·But you weren't suggesting that anybody at

23· ·DMV or the State Board of Elections was specifically

24· ·targeting you for some reason?

25· · · · A.· ·I don't know.



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Page 22·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· But do you have a

·2· ·reason to think that?

·3· · · · A.· ·Not specifically.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I see on your voter registration

·5· ·form you are an unaffiliated voter; is that right?

·6· · · · A.· ·Correct.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And after you sent this email to Ms.

·8· ·Robertson, you handed me another email that I'm

·9· ·going to mark as Gignac Exhibit 3, a copy to Ms.

10· ·Riggs as well.

11· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Thank you.

12· · · · · · ·(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT GIGNAC NUMBER 3 WAS

13· · · · MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

14· · · · Q.· ·I just handed you a document I marked as

15· ·Gignac Exhibit 3.· Ms. Gignac, is this an email that

16· ·you provided me with earlier today?

17· · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· ·And this is a true and accurate copy of

19· ·that email?

20· · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what is this email that we're

22· ·looking at that is marked as Gignac Exhibit 3?

23· · · · A.· ·This is a reply from Terri Robertson, the

24· ·Director of the Board of Elections to the email I

25· ·sent her.

Page 23·1· · · · Q.· ·It appears that Ms. Robertson said that

·2· ·she forwarded your email to the State Board of

·3· ·Elections and asked they make an inquiry about it?

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And have you heard anything from

·6· ·the State Board of Elections about that?

·7· · · · A.· ·No.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And then I think there's another reply

·9· ·here where you thanked Ms. Robertson.

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·Was this the last communication that you

12· ·had with Ms. Robertson on the subject?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·Was this the last communication that you

15· ·had with anybody from the -- any Board of Elections

16· ·on this subject?

17· · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So I want to hand you another

19· ·document that I'm going to mark as Gignac Exhibit 4.

20· · · · · · ·(DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT GIGNAC NUMBER 4 WAS

21· ·MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

22· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Gignac, can you identify this document

23· ·that I've handed you that is marked as Gignac

24· ·Exhibit 4?

25· · · · A.· ·Yes, this is a letter from the Cumberland

Page 24·1· ·County Board of Elections to me with my notice of

·2· ·late voter registration.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And is this a true and accurate copy of

·4· ·the letter that you brought in and handed me earlier

·5· ·in your deposition today?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And this is a true and accurate

·8· ·copy of the letter that you received from the

·9· ·Cumberland County Board of Elections?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·And it's dated October 23rd, 2014?

12· · · · A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · Q.· ·And after you had your email

14· ·correspondence with Ms. Robertson on October 21st,

15· ·did you attempt to register to vote again after you

16· ·learned that you were not registered to vote?

17· · · · A.· ·I did that on October 21st, the same day

18· ·as I found out I was not registered.

19· · · · Q.· ·And how did you go about registering then?

20· · · · A.· ·I can't remember if I did it when I was at

21· ·the DMV or is there -- I don't remember if I did it

22· ·on-line or at the DMV, but either way, I did it the

23· ·same day I found out I was not registered.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· So do you remember

25· ·filling out a registration form or was one printed

Page 25·1· ·for you that you signed or do you remember?

·2· · · · A.· ·I don't remember specifically.

·3· · · · Q.· ·You don't remember whether it was at the

·4· ·DMV or the Board of Elections that you --

·5· · · · A.· ·It must have been at the DMV because

·6· ·that's -- that's where I went.· I've never been to

·7· ·the Board of Elections and I went to the DMV on

·8· ·October 21st, so I believe I had -- I did it when

·9· ·I went to inquire about why I wasn't registered.

10· · · · Q.· ·And so when you went back to the DMV on

11· ·October 21st, were you successfully registered at

12· ·that time?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·And you received a voter registration card

15· ·in the mail since then?

16· · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · Q.· ·And then after October 21st, that's when

18· ·you received this letter stating that you had not

19· ·registered 25 days in advance of the November 2014

20· ·general election?

21· · · · A.· ·Correct.

22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And now that you received your

23· ·voter registration card in the mail, do you have any

24· ·concerns about being able to vote in future

25· ·elections in North Carolina?



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Page 26·1· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Objection to form.

·2· · · · A.· ·No.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And so you believe that you will be, in

·4· ·fact, able to vote in future elections without a

·5· ·problem in North Carolina?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· Objection, calls for

·8· · · · speculation.

·9· · · · Q.· ·I want to look through my notes here and

10· ·see if I have any more questions.

11· · · · · · ·I don't have any further questions for Ms.

12· ·Gignac at this time.

13· · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFFS

14· · · · · · ·BY MS. RIGGS:

15· · · · Q.· ·Okay, I just have a couple.

16· · · · · · ·If we could mark this.· I'm going to mark

17· ·this as Gignac 5.

18· · · · · · ·(PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER GIGNAC 5 WAS

19· ·MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)

20· · · · Q.· ·Can you take a second to look at that and

21· ·let me know if you've ever seen the emails at the

22· ·top of the email thread there?

23· · · · A.· ·No, I have not seen it before.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I will represent to you that this

25· ·email thread was produced in discovery in this

Page 27·1· ·litigation.· Is the bottom of the email thread that

·2· ·email that you sent to Ms. Robertson?

·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you ever hear from Miss -- the

·5· ·second person in the thread, Veronica Degraffenreid.

·6· ·Do you know who Ms. Degraffenreid is?

·7· · · · A.· ·No.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Did you ever receive any communications

·9· ·from her?

10· · · · A.· ·No.

11· · · · Q.· ·And then looking at the top of the thread,

12· ·Charlotte Boyd-Malette, do you see that?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·Do you know who Ms. Boyd-Malette is?

15· · · · A.· ·No.

16· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever received any communication

17· ·from her?

18· · · · A.· ·No.

19· · · · Q.· ·You wanted to vote in 2014, correct?

20· · · · A.· ·Correct.

21· · · · Q.· ·And because you weren't registered, you

22· ·did not get to vote?

23· · · · A.· ·That's correct.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know when the early voting

25· ·period is in North Carolina?

Page 28·1· · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Do you -- did you know if early voting was

·3· ·still ongoing when you discovered the problem with

·4· ·your registration?

·5· · · · A.· ·No.

·6· · · · Q.· ·Would you have tried -- do you prefer to

·7· ·vote on election day or during early voting?

·8· · · · A.· ·I have done both, whatever works with my

·9· ·schedule.

10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know what same day

11· ·registration was?

12· · · · A.· ·I know of the concept, yes.

13· · · · Q.· ·Is it your understanding that if you

14· ·had -- if same day registration had been in effect

15· ·and you'd gone to vote during early voting, this

16· ·problem could have been rectified?

17· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Object to form.

18· · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · ·MS. RIGGS:· That's all I have.

20· · · · · FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS

21· · · · · · · ·BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

22· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Gignac, have you ever used same day

23· ·registration in North Carolina or any other state

24· ·before?

25· · · · A.· ·No.

Page 29·1· · · · MR. McKNIGHT:· Okay.· I don't have any

·2· ·further questions for Ms. Gignac.

·3· · · · (WITNESS WAIVED SIGNATURE.)

·4· · · · (WHEREUPON THE DEPOSITION IS CONCLUDED AT

·5· ·1:41 P.M.)

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15· ·this 8th day of June, 2015.

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18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _____________________________

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Lynn A. Ruggiro

19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Notary Public No. 20030830270

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ANNA PATRICE HARRIS May 5, 2015


1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA__________________________________ )NORTH CAROLINA STATE )CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, et al., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) Civil Action v. ) No. 1:13-CV-658 )PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his )official capacity as the Governor )of North Carolina, et al., ) ) Defendants. )__________________________________) )LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )NORTH CAROLINA, et al., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) Civil Action v. ) No. 1:13-CV-660 )THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )et al., ) ) Defendants. )__________________________________) )UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) Civil Action v. ) No. 1:13-CV-861 )THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )et al., ) ) Defendant. )__________________________________)

DEPOSITION OF ANNA PATRICE HARRIS

Tuesday Southern Coalition for Social JusticeMay 5, 2015 1415 West Highway 54, Suite 1011:00 P.M. Durham, North Carolina 27707

2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2

For the League of Women Voters3 of North Carolina Plaintiffs:4 SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE

BY: GEORGE EPPSTEINER, ESQ.5 1415 West Highway 54

Suite 1016 Durham, North Carolina 27707


9 For the Duke Plaintiff-Intervenors:10 POYNER SPRUILL, LLP

BY: JOHN W. O'HALE, ESQ.11 301 Fayetteville Street

Suite 190012 Raleigh, North Carolina 27601


15 For the State of North Carolina Defendants:16 N.C. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

BY: KATHERINE A. MURPHY, ESQ.17 114 W. Edenton Street

Raleigh, North Carolina 2760318 (919) 716-6900

[email protected]

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21 --o0o--22

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3

1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION2 WITNESS: ANNA PATRICE HARRIS3 EXAMINATION PAGE4 By Mr. Eppsteiner.........................45 By Ms. Murphy............................256

7

8 INDEX OF EXHIBITS9 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

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2 * * * * *

3 ANNA PATRICE HARRIS,

4 being duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth

5 and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified

6 as follows:

7 THE DEPONENT: I do.

8 MR. EPPSTEINER: Good afternoon.

9 THE DEPONENT: Good afternoon.

10 MR. EPPSTEINER: For the purposes of the

11 record, if all the attorneys could introduce

12 themselves.

13 I'm George Eppsteiner. I'm one of the

14 attorneys representing the League of Women Voters

15 Plaintiffs in this matter.

16 MR. O'HALE: My name is John O'Hale with

17 the law firm of Poyner Spruill. I represent the

18 Duke Plaintiff-Intervenors.

19 MS. MURPHY: And I'm Katherine Murphy with

20 the North Carolina Department of Justice

21 representing the Defendants.

22 EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. EPPSTEINER:

24 Q. Could you please introduce yourself for the

25 record.




2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 A. My name is Anna Patrice Harris.

2 Q. Ms. Harris, have you ever had your

3 deposition taken before?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. I'm going to go over a couple ground

6 rules. At your left is a court reporter who is

7 taking down all of the questions that are asked and

8 all of the responses that you provide. In typical

9 everyday conversation, we may make verbal responses

10 such as "uh-huh" and "unh-unh" that the court

11 reporter can't take down. So if you could give

12 verbal responses, you know, "yes," "no," that would

13 be much appreciated. Do you understand that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. And you just took an oath to tell

16 the truth. Did you understand that oath?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is there any reason today that you

19 couldn't testify truthfully; meaning are you under

20 any medications that would affect your judgment in

21 truthfully testifying today?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. From time to time, there may be an

24 objection that is made from one of the lawyers in

25 this room. I'd ask you to still answer the question

6

1 unless you're asked not to answer that. Is that

2 fair?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if anytime you don't understand a

5 question, please feel free to ask me to rephrase. If

6 you do answer a question, I'm going to assume that

7 you understand it. Is that fair?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And at any time you need to take a

10 break during the deposition, I'd be happy to

11 accommodate that, as well as any lawyers in the room,

12 as well. My only stipulation to that is if there is

13 a question pending, if you could first answer the

14 question before we take a break. Is that fair?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Ms. Harris, did you vote in the

17 November 4th, 2014 general election?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. And what was your address at the time that

20 you voted?

21 A. 2024 Folsom Lane, Morrisville.

22 Q. And that's North Carolina?

23 A. Yes. 27560 zip code.

24 Q. And, Ms. Harris, what is your date of

25 birth?

7

1 A. /89.

2 Q. And what is your race?

3 A. Black.

4 Q. And when you voted in the November 2014

5 general election, were you a registered voter in

6 North Carolina?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. In Durham County; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At the time of the November 2014 general

11 election, were you a student?

12 A. Yes. I'm a student at, uh, North Carolina

13 Central University.

14 Q. And is that located in Durham County, North

15 Carolina?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. How many polling places did you go to

18 before being able to cast a vote in the November 2014

19 election?

20 A. Two voting places.

21 Q. Where did you first try to vote? And when

22 I'm talking about voting, I'm talking about the

23 November 4th, 2014 general election. Is that fair?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. So where did you first try to vote?

8

1 A. I first tried to vote at the library off

2 Alston Avenue.

3 Q. Okay. If I were to represent to you that

4 the South Regional Library is located on Alston

5 Avenue in Durham, do you believe that that's where

6 you voted?

7 A. Yes. That's -- that's correct.

8 Q. Or that's where you first tried to vote?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I'm sorry.

11 A. That was where I first tried to vote.

12 Q. And how did you make that decision to go to

13 that particular polling place, the South Regional

14 Library?

15 A. Um, I Googled it. I got the information

16 from the state website. I looked it up that way.

17 And they sent me to -- they gave me an address to go

18 to.

19 Q. So you tried to look up where your polling

20 place would be?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Okay. And it provided that particular

23 location?

24 A. Yes. It gave me an address.

25 Q. And once you had that address, what did you

REDACTED


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3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 do?

2 A. I put the address into my iPhone using the

3 map feature, and I had that direct me to my polling

4 station.

5 Q. And do you recall what time of day you left

6 for that polling place, the library?

7 A. It was early, probably between 6:30 and

8 7:00 a.m. I got up early so I could vote before

9 class.

10 Q. Now, early that morning, is that the time

11 that you normally leave for the day to go to classes?

12 A. Um, no. My class -- I believe my class

13 started at 9:00 that day or maybe 10:00, but I got up

14 earlier than usual because I had reading to do before

15 my class and I needed to vote. So I got up extra,

16 extra early in order to do those prior to my first

17 class.

18 Q. And so your plan was to go to school after

19 voting?

20 A. Yes, go directly to school so I could

21 finish my work, my reading, so I could be prepared

22 for class.

23 Q. So you had other things to do that day

24 other than vote?

25 A. Yes. I had a full day of classes and

10

1 studying, and I was at -- my day at school wasn't

2 going to end until 6:00, 7:00. It was a long -- long

3 day ahead of me that morning.

4 Q. And what type of transportation did you use

5 to get to the library?

6 A. Um, my vehicle.

7 Q. How long did it take you to travel -- and

8 by "vehicle," you mean by car?

9 A. Yes, my car.

10 Q. So how long did it take you to travel by

11 car from your residence to the South Regional

12 Library?

13 A. About 25 minutes.

14 Q. About 25 minutes?

15 A. Yes. Correct.

16 Q. Did you see anything to mark that

17 particular voting location, the library on Alston

18 Avenue?

19 A. Yes, I did. When I was driving, my

20 directions were telling me that I had arrived, and

21 then I saw signs that said "Vote here." I saw people

22 walking up to vote and the -- the signs that people

23 -- talking to people on line. And so I pulled over

24 because I assumed that was my correct voting

25 location.

11

1 Q. And because you were driving a vehicle, did

2 you have to find parking at the library?

3 A. I did. I was trying to find parking;

4 however, it was very difficult and confusing. They

5 had somebody who was directing traffic, and I was

6 told to park in a handicapped slot. So after I

7 parked my car, I had to talk to the person directing

8 traffic to make sure that my car would not be towed.

9 Q. And when you said that there was confusion

10 about parking, what do you mean by that?

11 A. There was just a lot of people not really

12 sure where to go, where to park. The parking was

13 just difficult. There wasn't that many parking

14 spaces, so they had somebody directing traffic. He

15 just wasn't doing the best of job.

16 Q. And when you arrived at the library, did

17 you see a line that was developing to vote?

18 A. Yes, there was a line. I would say the

19 line probably stretched out to the parking lot.

20 Q. So it stretched -- so it stretched from the

21 entrance of the library to the parking lot -- to the

22 parking lot where you parked your vehicle?

23 A. Not to where I parked my vehicle, but it

24 did stretch to the parking lot, correct.

25 Q. Would you say it was a long line?

12

1 A. It was a long line.

2 Q. And then did you wait in line?

3 A. I did wait in line.

4 Q. And so approximately how long did you wait

5 in line at the South Regional Library before you

6 spoke with a polling official?

7 A. I was probably in line for about 20 minutes

8 before I spoke to -- before I got to the front of the

9 line and spoke to a polling official.

10 Q. And so after you waited in line for

11 approximately 20 minutes, what happened when you

12 first talked to a polling official at the library?

13 A. Um, they asked me my address. I gave them

14 my address. They looked it up and said that I was

15 not in the correct polling place.

16 Q. Did they ask for your name as well?

17 A. Um, yes, they did.

18 Q. And your name and address were verified,

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did they initially tell you where your

22 correct polling place was?

23 A. No. Initially, they just told me that I

24 was not in the right voting place. I was very

25 confused because I honestly believed I was in my


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13

1 correct voting place. So then they went back, and

2 then they told me that no, your correct voting place

3 actually is across the street.

4 Q. So they didn't initially volunteer where

5 your actual polling place was; they had to check to

6 find that location for you?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And they said to go across the street?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Do you know the name of your actual polling

11 place across the street that you were directed to go

12 to?

13 A. I believe it was Lowe's Grove -- Lowe's

14 Grove something. I think it was a school or a church

15 maybe.

16 Q. If I were to represent to you that there's

17 a Lowe's Grove Baptist Church across the street also

18 on Alston Avenue in Durham, would you believe that

19 was the polling place --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- that you were directed to?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Approximately, how many minutes did it take

24 you to find parking when you arrived in the parking

25 area at the library?

14

1 A. Um, is that including the time where I

2 talked to the man afterwards?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. I would say about 10 minutes.

5 Q. So the parking process and confirming that

6 you were in the -- that you were parking in the

7 correct space took about 10 minutes?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And then you waited in line for

10 approximately 20 minutes?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. How long was the process of you speaking to

13 the polling official and getting information about

14 you having to go across the street?

15 A. Well, when I spoke to the polling official,

16 I spoke to them both about, um, what I needed to vote

17 next year and where I needed to go, and that

18 conversation probably took about 10 minutes.

19 Q. So by my math, it took 10 minutes to find

20 and confirm your parking space, 20 minutes of waiting

21 in line and 10 minutes speaking to polling officials,

22 which would be a total of approximately 40 minutes at

23 the library. Is that correct?

24 A. That sounds correct, yes.

25 Q. How did it make you feel that you had to go

15

1 to another polling place after taking approximately

2 40 minutes to finish that process at the library?

3 A. Um, I was very frustrated and stressed out.

4 Again, I had class and I had to be prepared for

5 class, and if I wasn't -- didn't complete my reading

6 prior to class, I knew that I just wouldn't be able

7 to go to class.

8 Um, so I was stressed out and I had to

9 think about whether I would forsake going to class or

10 just not vote. It crossed my mind again that I -- I

11 did think about just leaving and not voting and going

12 to school, but then I thought about it. I had a

13 conversation with my dad, and then I walked across

14 the street to vote.

15 Q. So assuming that that experience at the

16 library took approximately 40 minutes, if the polls

17 closed for the day at 7:30 p.m. and this same

18 experience happened to you when you arrived at the

19 library, let's say, at 7:00 p.m. --

20 A. Um-hmm.

21 Q. -- would you have been able to get across

22 the street to the second polling location by 7:30?

23 A. Absolutely not.

24 MS. MURPHY: Objection. Calls for

25 speculation.

16

1 BY MR. EPPSTEINER:

2 Q. You can answer.

3 MS. MURPHY: You can answer.

4 A. Absolutely not.

5 Q. And is Alston Avenue, the divide where the

6 Baptist Church, the second polling place, was on one

7 side and the South Regional Library was on the other

8 side, was that a busy street?

9 A. Yes, it was a busy street.

10 Q. And so did you walk across that busy

11 street?

12 A. I did. I walked -- I was very careful

13 about walking across the busy street. But I did walk

14 across it to get to the church. I didn't feel like

15 driving.

16 Q. How long would you say it took for you once

17 you were given that information from the polling

18 official at the library to walk out of the library

19 and then walk across the street to the polling place

20 at the church?

21 A. About five minutes. It was a very short

22 walk literally across the street.

23 Q. When you arrived -- and I'm just going to

24 say Lowe's Grove. Do you understand that to mean

25 Lowe's Grove Baptist Church, the second polling place


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17

1 you went to?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. When you arrived at Lowe's Grove,

4 did you have to wait in line at that second polling

5 place?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. How long did you have to wait in line for

8 before, again, you spoke to a polling official?

9 A. Um, I was in that line for about 15

10 minutes.

11 Q. Tell me what happened once you checked in

12 with the polling official at Lowe's Grove?

13 A. It was confusing. They gave me a ballot,

14 and then I had to wait in line to cast the ballot,

15 and then I had to go back to speak to somebody. I

16 can't remember what it was for, but it was another --

17 it was -- hold on. There was a line I had to stand

18 in to actually get to the front of the line and then

19 a second line I had to stand in once I got in front.

20 So it was two lines total.

21 Q. So you had to wait in two different lines

22 before being able to go ahead and vote?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Okay. And then you went through the

25 process of voting?

18

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. And so how long did it take you -- and so

3 previously, you said you waited in line for 15

4 minutes, is that right, at that second polling place?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Does that 15 minutes include time in both

7 of those lines?

8 A. No. That was just the first line.

9 Q. Okay. And so how -- so you were in line

10 for 15 minutes in one line. How long were you in

11 line in that second line before receiving your

12 ballot?

13 A. Less than five minutes. The second line

14 was a shorter line.

15 Q. So then if -- not including your time

16 waiting in those two lines, how long did the process

17 of actually voting and submitting your ballot take?

18 A. Are you asking me how long it took me to

19 fill out my ballot and submit it?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Maybe like less than five minutes. The

22 actual voting part was very quick.

23 Q. You said approximately five minutes to

24 vote?

25 A. Actual voting less than five minutes.

19

1 Q. All right.

2 A. I had a list with me. Um, I was rushing at

3 that point. So I quickly -- it didn't take me more

4 than a couple minutes to actually fill out the ballot

5 and cast it.

6 Q. Okay. So what -- so what would you say was

7 your total time at the second polling place waiting

8 in those two lines, casting your ballot and

9 submitting your ballot until leaving that polling

10 place?

11 A. Um, I would say about 25 minutes.

12 Q. And then did you walk back to your vehicle

13 at the library, the first polling location that you

14 went to?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. So correct me if I'm wrong, but by your

17 previous testimony, it took you 40 minutes total at

18 the library, the first polling place, then you walked

19 five minutes to the second polling place, the Baptist

20 church, where you were there a total about 25

21 minutes, and then you had about a five-minute walk

22 back to the library parking lot?

23 A. That sounds correct, yes.

24 Q. So adding up that time, 40 minutes at the

25 library, plus 10 minutes walking back and forth,

20

1 that's 50 minutes, plus 25 minutes at the second

2 polling place, the church, that's a total of 75

3 minutes, which is an hour and 15 minutes. Would you

4 say that that was approximately the total time it

5 took you to ultimately vote and return to your

6 vehicle that day?

7 A. Um, not including my driving time, yes. I

8 remember I had a conversation with my dad after, and

9 I said, I can't believe that it all took me over an

10 hour and a half, but that's including my driver time,

11 to vote.

12 Q. So with your drive, it was in excess of an

13 hour and a half to complete the process of --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- voting?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And how did it make you feel that you had

18 to spend over an hour and 15 minutes in the voting

19 process itself and having to go to two different

20 polling places to cast a ballot?

21 A. Um, I was extremely frustrated. Um, as a

22 law student, I'm on very limited time. I carved out

23 the time, um, out of my day to vote. I didn't think

24 it was going to take me anything over than 30

25 minutes. It never had prior to me voting before, and




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 I vote frequently. Um, so I was extremely

2 frustrated, and I just felt like my whole day got

3 shot after that point. I had to rearrange things.

4 Q. And I know you said that you thought about

5 leaving when you were at the library. Once you were

6 waiting in line at Grove, did you think about leaving

7 again?

8 A. No. At that point, I was already committed

9 to voting, and I realized that I would -- I may have

10 to miss class or I may have to have a conversation

11 with my professor about why I was unprepared, but I

12 was ready to do that in order so I could vote.

13 Q. And because you were willing to possibly

14 miss class to vote, would you say that voting is

15 important to you?

16 A. Yeah, voting is very important to me. I

17 vote everywhere I go. I'm a student. I've been a

18 student for seven, eight years, I believe, um, and

19 I've always been an out-of-state student. So in my

20 college and law school have always been out of state,

21 and I always make sure wherever I live, I register to

22 vote there. It's very important to me, so I do vote.

23 Q. And when you say you vote wherever you go,

24 by that do you mean you vote at the locations where

25 you're a resident of?

22

1 A. Yes, I vote wherever I'm a resident of the

2 state I am.

3 Q. Prior to 2013, did you previously cast a

4 provisional ballot in a different Durham County

5 polling place than your designated polling place on

6 Election Day?

7 A. Yes. I believe it was in 2012, I cast from

8 a provisional ballot.

9 Q. And so would that have been the November

10 2012 presidential election?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. And what made you decide to go to that

13 particular precinct that day in 2012?

14 A. Um, it was more convenient to me. I was in

15 the middle of my study day. So I Googled the closest

16 polling station to where I was located at the time,

17 not from my house, um, and it directed me to that

18 polling station. So I drove there to vote.

19 Q. Did you like the ability to vote in the

20 precinct of your choice in Durham County on Election

21 Day in 2012?

22 A. Yes. It made it a whole lot easier for me

23 because I was able to vote wherever was closest to

24 where I was at the time. So I spent a lot of time

25 away from my home, and it was nice to be able to vote

23

1 wherever it was that I was there at the time,

2 wherever closest to me it was.

3 Q. Now, switching back for a moment to the

4 November 2014 general election --

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. -- did you receive information regarding

7 the photo ID requirement to vote beginning in 2016

8 while waiting in line at the library, the first

9 polling place?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. In what form was that information?

12 A. Um, I spoke with -- um, I got to the front

13 of the line -- because I saw signs about voting. Um,

14 I spoke with somebody, and I wanted to know whether I

15 could vote on my California license, um, and what I

16 would need in order to vote for the next election.

17 Q. And when you said you spoke to someone, do

18 you mean a poll worker?

19 A. Yeah. I spoke to a poll worker in front of

20 the line. Um, when I asked the question, they told

21 me that they didn't think I would be able to vote on

22 my California license, um, or my passport, but they

23 would check. They went and talked to somebody else

24 who told me that I would, um, not be able to vote on

25 my passport.

24

1 Q. So at the library --

2 A. I mean -- I'm sorry. I would not be able

3 to vote on my California driver's license --

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. -- and my passport.

6 Q. And so -- so you're saying at the library,

7 the first polling place you went to, you were told

8 that a passport was not valid ID to vote beginning in

9 2016, and an out-of-state driver's license was not

10 valid ID as well?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Did you talk with poll workers at Lowe's

13 Grove, the second polling place, about the photo ID

14 requirement for voting?

15 A. Um, I did. I spoke again when I got into

16 the front of the line. Or, actually, after I

17 finished voting, I spoke to a polling official about

18 what I needed to do to make sure I could vote in the

19 next election. And I was told that I would

20 definitely not be able to vote on my California

21 driver's license, and I should be able to vote on my

22 passport. However, they didn't sound very confident

23 to me. Um, and so when I left the polling station, I

24 was still confused about what I needed to do in order

25 to vote.




7 (Pages 25 to 28)

25

1 Q. Okay. So at the first polling place, the

2 library, you were told no passport, but at the second

3 polling place, you were told, not very convincingly

4 to you, that a passport should be okay identification

5 for voting?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Okay. And at both polling places, the

8 library and then the church, you were told at both

9 locations that an out-of-state driver's license was

10 not valid ID for voting beginning in 2016?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Ms. Harris, have you had any issues when

13 voting in North Carolina regarding the wording of

14 your name?

15 A. No.

16 MR. EPPSTEINER: That's all the questions I

17 have at this time. I appreciate your time today.

18 Some of the other attorneys may have some

19 questions for you.

20 THE DEPONENT: Okay.

21 MR. O'HALE: On behalf of the Duke

22 Intervenor, I do not have any questions.

23 EXAMINATION

24 BY MS. MURPHY:

25 Q. I do have a few.

26

1 You say you Googled -- originally, to find

2 out what your polling -- your correct polling place

3 was in 2014, you Googled polling places or did you

4 look up on the State Board's website or --

5 A. Um, I Googled -- I used Google to find the

6 State, um, Board website. I had talked to a friend

7 prior and she told me that I could look it up using

8 the State Board website.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. Um, so I used Google to direct me to the

11 State Board website in order to look up my polling

12 station.

13 Q. And to your knowledge, if you know, did you

14 get the proper address for your polling place from

15 the State Board website?

16 A. Um, I be -- I can't recall.

17 Q. Okay. But I believe you testified that you

18 drove to where you thought your polling place was and

19 you saw a bunch of people in front of the library,

20 and so you went into the library?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Okay. How long have you lived at the

23 Folsom address?

24 A. Um, it will -- three years. About three

25 years. I moved in August 2012.

27

1 Q. When you -- is that where you were living

2 when you initially registered to vote in North

3 Carolina?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Did you get a polling card in the mail?

6 A. Um --

7 Q. Or I should say a voter registration card.

8 Some kind of card from the Board of Elections telling

9 you about your registration information?

10 A. I can't say that they never mailed me one.

11 I don't check my mailbox frequently. So it's

12 possibly that they did mail it to me, and I never

13 opened the mail. But I never received one in my

14 hands, not that I know of. I never did have one in

15 my wallet or anything like that.

16 Q. Okay. Have you ever voted by early voting?

17 A. In my lifetime?

18 Q. In North Carolina. I'm sorry.

19 A. Um, no. I do -- not that I recall. Not

20 that I recall.

21 Q. Have you considered it?

22 A. I did. I considered early voting actually

23 in the 2014, this election, however, I didn't realize

24 that I couldn't early vote on Sunday. So when I went

25 to early vote on Sunday, I realized that it was

28

1 closed. So that's when I realized I would have to

2 vote actually on Election Day. But it was my

3 original plan to early vote.

4 Q. Okay. And are you aware that if you go to

5 early voting, you could vote at any of the early

6 voting sites?

7 A. Um, no, I wasn't aware of that.

8 Q. How did you think it was determined which

9 site you would be able to early vote at?

10 A. Um, I guess I had never had thought about

11 the provisional and what place I went to. I just,

12 um -- I always voted to where I Googled. And when I

13 voted the provisional ballot in 2012, it was -- um,

14 nobody actually told me that I wasn't in my correct

15 polling place. Um, it was a -- they just gave me a

16 ballot; it was no problem. So I wasn't aware of the

17 whole you have to go to your direct polling place

18 versus, um, you could go to any of the polling places

19 prior to this incident.

20 MR. EPPSTEINER: And --

21 BY MS. MURPHY:

22 Q. Okay.

23 MR. EPPSTEINER: -- I didn't have time to

24 place my objection. I just object as to

25 relevance. She said that she hadn't early voted


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8 (Pages 29 to 32)

29

1 in North Carolina before.

2 BY MS. MURPHY:

3 Q. Did you testify that you went to an early

4 voting site then?

5 A. In North Carolina?

6 Q. Uh-huh. I -- I may have misunderstood. I

7 thought you said you went on a Sunday -- and it was

8 closed -- to an early voting site. Did I

9 misunderstand?

10 MR. EPPSTEINER: I'm going to object. I

11 don't think that was her testimony. But you can

12 answer.

13 A. Are you asking me if I attempted to go or I

14 actually did cast a ballot in the early voting web --

15 voting?

16 Q. What did you say -- you just repeat

17 whatever your answer was when I asked before and you

18 said something about a Sunday and the site was

19 closed.

20 A. Oh. I did look it up to see if I could on

21 that Sunday, but I found out using the Internet that

22 it was closed.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. So I didn't actually go to --

25 Q. Okay.

30

1 A. -- the voting site to -- because I realized

2 it was closed.

3 Q. Okay. And when you voted in 2000 -- I

4 believe you said 2012 is when you voted and used a


6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall whether the officials told

8 you that your votes may not all count if you voted by

9 provisional ballot? I'm sorry. Strike that. I'm

10 not going to ask that question.

11 You mentioned that you left the second

12 polling place feeling confused. They had told you

13 that you could use a passport to vote, but you were

14 confused and not sure. Is that a fair --

15 A. When I left the second polling place, yes.

16 Q. Did you -- you say you're a law student?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What year?

19 A. I'm a third year.

20 Q. Did you ever look at the statute that

21 governs voting?

22 A. Um, no. I didn't have the time to look at

23 the statute.

24 Q. Have you made any inquiries to either your

25 local Board of Elections or the State Board of

31

1 Elections to find out what would be necessary to

2 vote?

3 A. After that happened, I did speak with my

4 professor -- one of my professors about it, and I got

5 it cleared up. Um, so at that point, I was aware of

6 what I needed to do in order to vote after, but once

7 I left the polling station, I was confused.

8 Q. Okay. But you were able to find out that

9 you can use your passport to --

10 A. Yes, eventually.

11 Q. -- as your ID?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Okay. Do you have any concerns about

14 whether you have photo ID that you can use to vote in

15 2016?

16 A. As of right now?

17 Q. Um-hmm.

18 A. No.

19 Q. No concerns?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. And now you know what your correct

22 precinct is; is that correct?

23 A. I, um -- I'm assuming it's the one I went

24 to last time. And even so -- I mean, in the next

25 election, I would look it up the same way I did from

32

1 the previous elections. That's how I always vote; I

2 Google it and go to where Google tells me to go.

3 Q. And then this time, will you be careful to

4 write down the actual street address?

5 A. No. I never -- never write down street

6 addresses; I use my phone. Um, I'm not from North

7 Carolina, so I rely heavily on my phone and GPS to

8 guide me. However, North Carolina -- the maps don't

9 really guide you directly to the exact spot. It kind

10 of just, um, drops you off in the general vicinity.

11 So that's why when I saw the signs, I assumed I was

12 at the correct spot.

13 Q. Well, having learned the hard way that

14 there might be two polling places on either side of

15 the street, are you going to change your behavior in

16 the future?

17 A. Um, I don't really understand the question.

18 How -- change my behavior how?

19 Q. Well, I'm just wondering if there's a way

20 for you to avoid waiting 40 minutes in the wrong

21 polling place in the future. And one way that occurs

22 to me is to find out the street address of your

23 proper polling place so that you don't go to the one

24 that's on the wrong side of the road; you go to the

25 proper one.


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33

1 MR. EPPSTEINER: Objection. Calls for

2 speculation as to an election that hasn't

3 occurred yet.

4 A. I'm not sure how I would go about doing

5 that. Um, the address on either the library or the

6 church wasn't clearly put out there. There was no

7 place I clearly could see the address. So, again, I

8 just relied on my MapQuest, or whatever, Google Maps

9 telling me that I had arrived at my destination.

10 And since I had to wait until the front of

11 the line to actually talk to a polling official, I

12 don't really see how I -- I could see that mistake

13 happening again because I wasn't told I was at the

14 wrong place until I was actually in the front of the

15 line, and the address wasn't really clearly out there

16 for me to see.

17 Q. Did you notice whether there was any

18 parking at the Grove, whatever the second -- Lowe's

19 Grove polling place?

20 A. I didn't even check, um, since I was

21 walking over. I walked directly into the front door

22 of the building. I don't even remember seeing a

23 parking lot. I wasn't looking for it.

24 MS. MURPHY: Okay. I have no further

25 questions.

34

1 MR. EPPSTEINER: Nothing further from the

2 League.

3 MR. O'HALE: Nothing further.

4 MS. MURPHY: Okay.

5 (SIGNATURE RESERVED.)

6 (THE DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 1:35 P.M.)

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2 Case name: NC NAACP v McCRORY

3 Witness name: ANNA PATRICE HARRIS

4 Deposition Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2015

5


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25 Signature Date

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1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T2 I, ANNA PATRICE HARRIS, do hereby state3 under oath that I have read the above and foregoing4 deposition in its entirety and that the same is a5 full, true and correct transcript of my testimony,6 subject to the attached list of corrections, if any.7

8

_______________________9 ANNA PATRICE HARRIS

10

11 Sworn to and subscribed before me12 this_______day of_____________________ , 20_____.13

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10 (Page 37)

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1

STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )2 C E R T I F I C A T E

COUNTY OF WAKE )3

4 I, Eileen M. Dunne, the officer before whom5 the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify6 that the witness whose testimony appears in the7 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the8 testimony of said witness was taken by me to the best9 of my ability and thereafter reduced to typewriting

10 under my direction; that I am neither counsel for,11 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the12 action in which this deposition was taken, and13 further that I am not a relative or employee of any14 attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto,15 nor financially or otherwise interested in the16 outcome of the action.17

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_________________________21 EILEEN M. DUNNE

Notary Public # 20131490019522

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·1· · · · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

·2· · · · · FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

·3· ·------------------------------x· · ·NORTH CAROLINA STATE·4· ·CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, et· · ·al.,·5· · ·Plaintiffs,·6· · · · · · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·1:13CV658

·7· ·PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in· · ·his official capacity as·8· ·Governor of North Carolina,· · ·et al.,·9· · ·Defendants.10· ·------------------------------x· · ·LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF11· ·NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,

12· ·Plaintiffs,

13· ·and

14· ·LOUIS M. DUKE, et al.,

15· ·Plaintiffs-Intervenors,

16· · · · · · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·1:13CV660

17· ·THE STATE OF NORTH· · ·CAROLINA, et al.,18· · ·Defendants.19· ·------------------------------x· · ·UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,20· ·Plaintiff,

21· · · · · · · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·1:13CV86122· · ·THE STATE OF NORTH23· ·CAROLINA, et al.,

24· ·Defendants.· · ·-------------------------------x25



Page 2·1· · ·30(b)(6) Deposition of BARBEE'S CHAPEL MISSIONARY

·2· · · · · · · · · · BAPTIST CHURCH, INC.

·3· · · · · · · · · ·BY:· LONNIE GENE HATLEY

·4· · · · · · · · · (Taken by the Defendants)

·5· · · · · · · · ·Chapel Hill, North Carolina

·6· · · · · · · · · Wednesday, April 1, 2015

·7

·8· ·Reported by:· · ·Marisa Munoz-Vourakis -

· · · · · · · · · · · RMR, CRR and Notary Public

·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·o0o

10· ·APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:

11· ·For the NAACP Plaintiffs:

12· · · · · · ·JENNIFER BASCH, ESQ.

13· · · · · · ·Kirkland & Ellis, LLP

14· · · · · · ·601 Lexington Avenue

15· · · · · · ·New York, NY 10022

16· · · · · · ·212-446-5926

17· · · · · · ·[email protected]


19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · -and-

20· · · · · · ·DENISE LIEBERMAN, ESQ.

21· · · · · · ·Advancement Project

22· · · · · · ·1220 L. Street, N.W., Suite 850

23· · · · · · ·Washington, DC 20005

24· · · · · · ·314-780-1833


Page 3·1· ·APPEARANCES (Continued)

·2· ·For the United States of America:

·3· · · · · · ·ANGELA MILLER, ESQ.(By Telephone)

·4· · · · · · ·U.S. Department of Justice

·5· · · · · · ·950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

·6· · · · · · ·NWB- Room 7265

·7· · · · · · ·Washington, DC 20530

·8· · · · · · ·800-253-3931

·9· · · · · · ·[email protected]

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Page 4·1· ·APPEARANCES (Continued)

·2· ·For the Defendants:

·3· · · · · · ·KATHERINE A. MURPHY, ESQ.

·4· · · · · · ·North Carolina Department of Justice

·5· · · · · · ·114 W. Edenton Street

·6· · · · · · ·Raleigh, NC 27603-1013

·7· · · · · · ·919-716-6900

·8· · · · · · ·[email protected]

·9

10· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·o0o

11

12· · · · · · · · ·Deposition of LONNIE GENE HATLEY, taken

13· ·by the Defendants, at Tim Fulton Walker & Owen, 312

14· ·West Franklin Street, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, on

15· ·the 1st day of April, 2015 at 10:03 a.m., before Marisa

16· ·Munoz-Vourakis, Registered Merit Reporter, Certified

17· ·Realtime Reporter and Notary Public.

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Page 5·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X

·2· ·Examination of:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page

·3· ·LONNIE GENE HATLEY

·4· · · · ·EXAMINATION BY MS. MURPHY· . . . . . . . . 6

·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·NAACP EXHIBITS

·6· ·EXHIBIT NUMBER· · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · PAGE

·7· ·Exhibit 27· Plaintiffs' Responses &· · · · · · ·33

· · · · · · · · ·Objections to Defendants' First

·8· · · · · · · ·Set of Interrogatories

·9· ·Exhibit 28· NAACP Plaintiffs' Responses &· · · ·36

· · · · · · · · ·Objections to Defendants'

10· · · · · · · ·Second Set of Interrogatories

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Page 6·1· · · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S

·2· · · · ·Whereupon,· LONNIE GENE HATLEY, having been

·3· · · · ·first duly affirmed, was examined

·4· · · · ·and testified as follows:

·5· · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS

·6· · · · · · · ·BY MS. MURPHY:

·7· · · · Q.· · ·Good morning, Mr. Hatley.· I'm Kathy

·8· ·Murphy.· I'm with the North Carolina Department of

·9· ·Justice.· I represent the State Board of Elections

10· ·defendants, and we're here for the deposition today in

11· ·the lawsuit brought by the NAACP plaintiffs against the

12· ·state and other defendants.

13· · · · · · · ·Have you ever been deposed before?

14· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

15· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· So you know the rules, the

16· ·guidelines.· Any time you want to take a break, let me

17· ·know.· I just ask that you answer any question that

18· ·I've asked prior to breaking, but I don't think we'll

19· ·be here very long, so we may not need a break, but if

20· ·you do, you just let me know, okay.

21· · · · · · · ·Is there any reason this morning why you

22· ·can't understand my questions, any medication or

23· ·anything that might interfere with your ability?

24· · · · A.· · ·No.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Any reason why you can't answer my

Page 7·1· ·questions totally accurately, honestly?

·2· · · · A.· · ·No.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· If I ask a poorly-worded question or

·4· ·if you don't hear my question, please feel free to ask

·5· ·me to repeat or rephrase it and I will.

·6· · · · A.· · ·I will.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·You understand that you're under oath today

·8· ·or you affirmed under penalties of perjury today and

·9· ·your testimony is as though you were testifying in

10· ·court?· Do you understand that?

11· · · · A.· · ·I understand.

12· · · · Q.· · ·What did you do to prepare for your

13· ·deposition, other than speak with your attorneys?· What

14· ·did you do to prepare?

15· · · · A.· · ·Simply reviewed materials that I had in my

16· ·file.

17· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And what materials were those?

18· · · · A.· · ·Emails, primarily emails and information

19· ·that we had distributed from our church concerning

20· ·voting, the elections, the new law.

21· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Anything else?

22· · · · A.· · ·Basically that's all.

23· · · · Q.· · ·When you say emails, what sort of emails?

24· · · · A.· · ·Emails that came to us from the NAACP and

25· ·others who were working on information concerning the

Page 8·1· ·voter laws.

·2· · · · · · · ·MS. MURPHY:· And counsel, I'm aware of

·3· · · · ·one email that we have that was served on

·4· · · · ·behalf of the Barbee Chapel Church from the

·5· · · · ·NAACP, but if there's more, I would ask that

·6· · · · ·you go back and see if we've got everything.

·7· · · · ·You did give these emails to the lawyers?

·8· · · · · · · ·MS. LIEBERMAN:· I believe we produced

·9· · · · ·everything that was responsive.

10· · · · · · · ·MS. MURPHY:· Okay.

11· · · · Q.· · ·Did you speak with anyone, other than your

12· ·attorneys, in preparing for the deposition?

13· · · · A.· · ·No.

14· · · · Q.· · ·Have you spoken with anyone, other than

15· ·your attorneys, about the litigation, this case?

16· · · · A.· · ·Only the members of the NAACP, which are a

17· ·part.· We have discussed various aspects of the voter

18· ·law and not getting into any specifics as it relates to

19· ·the lawsuit.

20· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And is the Barbee Chapel -- what's

21· ·the full name of your church?

22· · · · A.· · ·The legal name is Barbee's Chapel

23· ·Missionary Baptist Church, Incorporated, doing business

24· ·as Barbee's Chapel Harvest Word Church and Ministries.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And you say this church is a member

Page 9·1· ·of NAACP?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes, a life member.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And are you the pastor for the

·4· ·church?

·5· · · · A.· · ·I'm the senior pastor, yes.

·6· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· So you are the senior pastor for

·7· ·Barbee's Chapel?

·8· · · · A.· · ·Yes, I am.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·Are their other pastors as well?

10· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· · ·How many are there?

12· · · · A.· · ·We have two other pastors.

13· · · · Q.· · ·What are their names?

14· · · · A.· · ·Hattie B. Stancil, S-T-A-N-C-I-L,

15· ·H-A-T-T-I-E, B, as in birther, and the other one is

16· ·Maurice Brown, B-R-O-W-N.· I'm sorry, there's one

17· ·other, Larry B. Stancil is also one of the pastors.

18· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And how long have you been with the

19· ·Barbee's Chapel Church?

20· · · · A.· · ·Just celebrated 26 years.

21· · · · Q.· · ·That's a long time.

22· · · · · · · ·Were you there from its inception, or how

23· ·long has the church been around?

24· · · · A.· · ·No, the church was founded in 1865.· I'm

25· ·the 14th pastor.



Page 10·1· · · · Q.· · ·And are you -- and I apologize in advance,

·2· ·I'm totally unfamiliar with the Baptist church.· Are

·3· ·you ordained as a minister?

·4· · · · A.· · ·I am ordained.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·And then how are you selected as the pastor

·6· ·of the church?

·7· · · · A.· · ·The congregation solicits applications and

·8· ·candidates for when there is an opening.· I became a

·9· ·candidate in November of 1988, and was selected as the

10· ·new pastor December 1 of 1988.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And are the other pastors hired by you, or

12· ·are they also selected by the congregation?

13· · · · A.· · ·They are selected -- one is hired by me,

14· ·Hattie, she is the pastor that was hired by me.· Her

15· ·husband oversees by appointment the location in

16· ·Zebulon, and Maurice Brown also oversees the ministry

17· ·in Fuquay Varina by appointment.

18· · · · Q.· · ·So are these other locations of your

19· ·church, are they just other churches, or do they have

20· ·different focuses?

21· · · · A.· · ·Well, basically are other churches.· Our

22· ·church is what we call the mother church, and they are

23· ·all under the Barbee's Chapel Missionary Baptist

24· ·Church.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Where is the mother church located?

Page 11·1· · · · A.· · ·5916 Barbee Chapel Road, B-A-R-B-E-E,

·2· ·Chapel Road, Chapel Hill 27517.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And let's put on the record your

·4· ·current address?· You mentioned it to the court

·5· ·reporter, but I don't believe we were on the record

·6· ·yet.

·7· · · · A.· · ·8127 Farrington Mill Road, that's

·8· ·F-A-R-R-I-N-G-T-O-N, Mill Road, Chapel Hill 27517.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·And that's in Orange County, correct?

10· · · · A.· · ·No, that's in Durham County.· We are at the

11· ·apex of three counties.· We are within a mile and a

12· ·half of three counties, but we are in Durham County.

13· · · · Q.· · ·Are you registered to vote in Durham

14· ·County?

15· · · · A.· · ·I'm registered to vote in Durham County.

16· · · · Q.· · ·How long have you been registered to vote

17· ·in Durham County?

18· · · · A.· · ·Since 1989.

19· · · · Q.· · ·Where were you before you became the pastor

20· ·for Barbee's Chapel?

21· · · · A.· · ·I was in Atlanta, Georgia.

22· · · · Q.· · ·Were you a pastor of a church in Atlanta?

23· · · · A.· · ·I was copastor of a church there.

24· · · · Q.· · ·Where were you born and raised?

25· · · · A.· · ·Chatham County, North Carolina, 13 miles

Page 12·1· ·from where the church is located right now.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·Did you ever register to vote in Chatham

·3· ·County?

·4· · · · A.· · ·No, I did not, because I graduated from

·5· ·high school and went to college, and I didn't register

·6· ·to vote until I moved to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·You went to college in Pittsburgh,

·8· ·Pennsylvania?

·9· · · · A.· · ·I went to seminary, and my first pastoral

10· ·charge was in Pittsburgh.

11· · · · Q.· · ·So did you first register to vote in

12· ·Pittsburgh?

13· · · · A.· · ·Pittsburgh, yes.

14· · · · Q.· · ·And then after Pittsburgh, where did you

15· ·go?

16· · · · A.· · ·I went to Donora, D-O-N-O-R-A,

17· ·Pennsylvania, that was my second pastoral assignment.

18· · · · Q.· · ·And were you registered to vote there?

19· · · · A.· · ·I was.

20· · · · Q.· · ·And then where did you go after Donora?

21· · · · A.· · ·Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania.

22· · · · Q.· · ·Is this common for a Baptist minister to

23· ·move around?

24· · · · A.· · ·Rather common.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, were you

Page 13·1· ·registered to vote there?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·And where after Beaver Falls?

·4· · · · A.· · ·I went to Atlanta.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·And you were in Atlanta until you came

·6· ·here?

·7· · · · A.· · ·I was in Atlanta for three years, from 1985

·8· ·to 1988.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·Did you register to vote in Atlanta?

10· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· · ·When you moved to Pennsylvania, were you

12· ·required to reregister when you moved?

13· · · · A.· · ·From?

14· · · · Q.· · ·Well, when you moved say from Pittsburgh to

15· ·Donora, I don't know how they do it in Pennsylvania.

16· · · · A.· · ·Simply change of address.

17· · · · Q.· · ·So not --

18· · · · A.· · ·So it wasn't a reregistration.· It was a

19· ·change of address.

20· · · · Q.· · ·And what about when you moved from Donora

21· ·to Beaver Falls?

22· · · · A.· · ·Change of address.

23· · · · Q.· · ·And then when you moved to Atlanta, you had

24· ·to reregister?

25· · · · A.· · ·That was reregistration.



Page 14·1· · · · Q.· · ·Did you have any problems registering to

·2· ·vote in Atlanta?

·3· · · · A.· · ·No.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·When you came from Atlanta to Durham

·5· ·County, did you have any trouble registering to vote in

·6· ·Durham County?

·7· · · · A.· · ·No.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·Have you moved your residence since you

·9· ·came here in 1989?

10· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· · ·Have you changed counties?

12· · · · A.· · ·My registration county changed, yes, from

13· ·Wake to Durham.

14· · · · Q.· · ·Oh, did you first move to Wake County

15· ·before moving to Durham?

16· · · · A.· · ·I was at Chatham and then Wake.· My actual

17· ·registration was in Wake County, and from Wake to

18· ·Durham.

19· · · · Q.· · ·Did you have any difficulties registering

20· ·to vote in Wake County or Durham County?

21· · · · A.· · ·None.

22· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Have you voted in every election

23· ·cycle?

24· · · · A.· · ·With exception, I believe, of one.

25· · · · Q.· · ·And do you recall why there was an

Page 15·1· ·exception?

·2· · · · A.· · ·I was in the country of South Africa for

·3· ·four weeks.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·And they wouldn't let you vote there?

·5· · · · A.· · ·No.

·6· · · · Q.· · ·Did you consider doing an absentee ballot

·7· ·while you were out of the country?

·8· · · · A.· · ·At that time, I did not.· I discussed it

·9· ·with someone, and it seemed to be problematic of

10· ·getting the information to me and me returning it in

11· ·time.· That was in the 1996 election.

12· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know if that was before no excuse

13· ·absentee balloting?

14· · · · · · · ·MS. BASCH:· Objection.· This is beyond

15· · · · ·the scope.· He is designated as 30(b)(6)

16· · · · ·representative for Barbee's Chapel.· His

17· · · · ·personal voting experience is outside the

18· · · · ·scope.

19· · · · · · · ·MS. MURPHY:· Are you directing the

20· · · · ·witness not to answer?

21· · · · · · · ·MS. BASCH:· No, I'm not.

22· · · · A.· · ·The question again?· I'm sorry.

23· · · · Q.· · ·My handwriting is so bad, I don't even know

24· ·what I wrote down here.

25· · · · · · · ·Oh, do you know whether or not there was no

Page 16·1· ·excuse absentee balloting at the time of the 1996

·2· ·election?

·3· · · · A.· · ·Do not recall.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·How did Barbee's Chapel become a -- is it

·5· ·okay if I refer to it as Barbee's Chapel?

·6· · · · A.· · ·It's okay.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·How did Barbee's Chapel become a plaintiff

·8· ·in this lawsuit?

·9· · · · A.· · ·We were actively involved and have been

10· ·actively involved in social justice, equity situations,

11· ·civil rights situations since I have been there, and

12· ·when I heard of the pending lawsuit and pending

13· ·litigation, I was in a meeting where that was being

14· ·discussed, and I mentioned it to the officers of our

15· ·church that we should be, become a part of this,

16· ·because it was really something very close to our

17· ·hearts, as it relates to our civil rights.

18· · · · Q.· · ·What was the nature of the meeting where it

19· ·was being discussed?

20· · · · A.· · ·It was a meeting that was basically talking

21· ·about issues relative to the new legislature in North

22· ·Carolina.· There were several issues that were being

23· ·discussed, and we were being updated on various issues

24· ·of -- that involve civil rights and racial equity and

25· ·discrimination.

Page 17·1· · · · Q.· · ·Who called that meeting?

·2· · · · A.· · ·I believe it was a meeting that was called

·3· ·by our local -- then president of the local branch of

·4· ·the NAACP, and we had representatives from our state

·5· ·branch that were also in attendance.

·6· · · · Q.· · ·And do you recall who attended the meeting?

·7· · · · A.· · ·No.· I do not recall all the persons.

·8· ·There were several that were there, and I do not recall

·9· ·all the persons that were there.

10· · · · Q.· · ·Other than the current litigation, has

11· ·Barbee's Chapel been involved in litigation in the

12· ·past?

13· · · · A.· · ·No.

14· · · · Q.· · ·Does Barbee's Chapel have a formal

15· ·membership process?

16· · · · A.· · ·Would you describe to me what you mean by

17· ·formal membership process?

18· · · · Q.· · ·Well, do you consider the church to have

19· ·members?

20· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· · ·And how does one become a member?

22· · · · A.· · ·By their confession of faith, completing

23· ·then a process of orientation and then full acceptance.

24· · · · Q.· · ·How many members does Barbee's Chapel have?

25· · · · A.· · ·The membership of the four locations is



Page 18·1· ·approximately 360 members.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·How much revenue -- and you can either

·3· ·answer this for all the churches or each one

·4· ·separately, whatever makes the most sense, but how much

·5· ·revenue does Barbee's Chapel take in each year?

·6· · · · A.· · ·May I ask a question?

·7· · · · Q.· · ·Yes.· Do you need clarification?

·8· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· I guess what I'm having difficulty in

·9· ·understanding the question of revenue in relationship

10· ·to all the other things that we are involved with,

11· ·because normally we do not publicly disclose our

12· ·revenue.

13· · · · · · · ·MS. MURPHY:· Do you want to go off the

14· · · · ·record?

15· · · · · · · ·MS. BASCH:· Yes.

16· · · · · · · ·(Off the record at 10:20 a.m.)

17· · · · · · · ·(On the record at 10:20 a.m.)

18· · · · · · · ·BY MS. MURPHY:

19· · · · Q.· · ·Let me strike that question and ask what

20· ·percentage of your annual revenue that the church takes

21· ·in is devoted to get out the vote activities?

22· · · · A.· · ·I do not know the percentage, because we

23· ·have an area of ministry that we call outreach

24· ·ministry, and that outreach ministry includes such

25· ·things as voting and information as it relates to

Page 19·1· ·membership, salvation or membership or information,

·2· ·Biblical information that we share.

·3· · · · · · · ·So it's not -- I don't have a divided

·4· ·percentage for voting itself, because all of the

·5· ·outreach, including our media, radio, we are on some

·6· ·televisions, all of that is included in the category

·7· ·that we call outreach.· So I do not have figures that

·8· ·will specifically speak to percentage in relationship

·9· ·to voting efforts.

10· · · · Q.· · ·Could you make just a ballpark figure of

11· ·how much you spend annually on get out the vote or

12· ·voting education or voter outreach activities?

13· · · · A.· · ·I would not be able to make what I would

14· ·say a fair guess.· Our largest expenditure is in our

15· ·transportation department.

16· · · · Q.· · ·Are you referring to get out the vote

17· ·activities?

18· · · · A.· · ·Yes, ma'am.

19· · · · Q.· · ·The largest expenditure of get out the vote

20· ·is for transportation to the polls?

21· · · · A.· · ·Absolutely, yeah.

22· · · · Q.· · ·When I say get out the vote, I mean is that

23· ·also including registration drives?

24· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· · ·And other voter outreach?

Page 20·1· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Do you believe that Barbee's Chapel

·3· ·itself is going to be impacted by the -- well, let me

·4· ·back up.

·5· · · · · · · ·Do you know what I mean when I say the VIVA

·6· ·litigation, the Voter Information Verification Act?

·7· · · · A.· · ·Okay, yes, I mean, I understand now, once

·8· ·you explained it.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·Sometimes it's referred to as House Bill

10· ·589?

11· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.

12· · · · Q.· · ·Is that how you know it as House Bill 589?

13· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· · ·So do you believe that Barbee's Chapel, the

15· ·church itself, will be affected by H.B. 589?

16· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· And let me clarify to that.· I'm here

17· ·as a representative for Barbee's Chapel, but efforts as

18· ·it relates to voting, we have a partner church that

19· ·does not have transportation, and our community efforts

20· ·are all combined in one.

21· · · · · · · ·So when we talk about the impact of

22· ·Barbee's Chapel, not only am I referring to the church

23· ·proper, but our community efforts and our partner

24· ·church efforts.

25· · · · · · · ·In answer to your question, I believe it

Page 21·1· ·will be impacted in the sense that we will have a

·2· ·shorter period of time to do what we've had longer

·3· ·periods of time to do before, that will cause us, I

·4· ·believe, to crunch into a shorter period of time what

·5· ·we had a longer span of time to do before.

·6· · · · · · · ·So that, as far as an impact, will impact

·7· ·us.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Who is the partner church?

·9· · · · A.· · ·Olin T. Binkley Memorial Baptist.

10· · · · Q.· · ·Is Olin, O-L-I-N?

11· · · · A.· · ·O-L-I-N, T. Binkley, B-I-N-K-L-E-Y.

12· · · · Q.· · ·Is that on 15-501?

13· · · · A.· · ·15-501, yes.

14· · · · Q.· · ·And so when you do your voter outreach

15· ·efforts, you do that in partnership?

16· · · · A.· · ·In partnership.

17· · · · Q.· · ·With Binkley Baptist?

18· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

19· · · · Q.· · ·And then you mentioned community efforts.

20· ·Is there something separate from your partnership with

21· ·Binkley Baptist which you would identify as community

22· ·efforts?

23· · · · A.· · ·Well, each one of our churches are related

24· ·or involved with several other community activities and

25· ·outreach, and so when we get involved in voter or



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Page 22·1· ·election publicity, transportation to voter polls, we

·2· ·include it and open it to the larger community.· So it

·3· ·does not have boundaries.· We just simply serve as a

·4· ·conduit, and sometimes as the giving leadership to

·5· ·getting people to and from places that needs to get

·6· ·either register or get them to the polls.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· So if I understand what you said

·8· ·earlier correctly, and if I don't, correct me if I'm

·9· ·wrong, but as I understand what you're saying, when you

10· ·speak to the effects that H.B. 589 has, you're speaking

11· ·to the effects not just on Barbee Chapel's activities

12· ·but these other partner church and the community

13· ·efforts as well?

14· · · · A.· · ·Yes, ma'am.

15· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.

16· · · · A.· · ·That's right.

17· · · · Q.· · ·And you mentioned that there's now a

18· ·shorter period of time to do what you once did in a

19· ·longer period of time?

20· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· · ·So what specifically are you talking about

22· ·when you say shorter period of time to do things?

23· · · · A.· · ·Advanced voting periods.· I think now it's

24· ·restricted to one week.· We had two Sundays, which were

25· ·great opportunities that we used before that has been

Page 23·1· ·narrowed down to one Sunday.· So it means compacting

·2· ·everything in a shorter period of time.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·What did you do on Sundays?

·4· · · · A.· · ·When the polls were open on the two Sundays

·5· ·that we had, we had a tremendous amount of persons we

·6· ·encouraged and took to the actual polls to vote on

·7· ·those days.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·Did Orange County have any early voting

·9· ·sites open on Sundays?

10· · · · A.· · ·I don't know about Orange County.· We

11· ·provide information for four counties.· Most of our

12· ·congregation are part of Durham County, but we have

13· ·Orange County, Chatham, Wake that we provide

14· ·information as it relates to where polls are located.

15· · · · · · · ·So I do not recall offhand now exactly what

16· ·percentage of what numbers we were involved with,

17· ·because we had other volunteers that were working.

18· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· When you say advanced voting, do you

19· ·mean the early voting?

20· · · · A.· · ·Early voting, yes.

21· · · · Q.· · ·And so the activities you were engaged in

22· ·during the early voting period, you're saying now have

23· ·to be done in a shorter period of time?

24· · · · A.· · ·Yes, ma'am.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Are there any other impacts that you have

Page 24·1· ·felt as a result of the enactment of H.B. 589?

·2· · · · A.· · ·I think most of it will involve the

·3· ·reduction of time, which means that we have to do more

·4· ·in a shorter period of time than we had in past

·5· ·periods.· I think that will be one of the greatest

·6· ·reductions -- I mean, greatest impacts will be that. I

·7· ·don't know financially the impact that it will be, will

·8· ·cause us, I do not know.· And just having the two vans

·9· ·that we have to do that, I don't know at this point in

10· ·time what impact that will have to reduce the time

11· ·frame.

12· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· So can you tell me a little bit more

13· ·about what you were doing in the longer period that now

14· ·has to be put into a shorter period?

15· · · · A.· · ·We had an opportunity to give people more

16· ·flexibility in being able to get to early voting than

17· ·we will have in the future.

18· · · · Q.· · ·Anything else?

19· · · · A.· · ·Well, the amount of time that we used in

20· ·publicity will probably be reduced.· The number of

21· ·people that we used over a longer period of time will

22· ·probably be reduced or the number of volunteers, I

23· ·should say, because we had no paid persons working in

24· ·this endeavor at all.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Why would the number of volunteers be

Page 25·1· ·reduced?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Because of work schedules.· Most of our

·3· ·volunteers also have jobs that they work, and so we

·4· ·have to work around their schedules of being able to

·5· ·schedule them.· So it would -- to me it would be

·6· ·natural if you have to coordinate people's work

·7· ·schedules with their volunteer time, that will, of

·8· ·course, reduce the amount of time that people will be

·9· ·able to volunteer.

10· · · · Q.· · ·Did you do most of your publicity with

11· ·respect to voting matters during the early voting

12· ·period?

13· · · · A.· · ·Well, we did some advance notice

14· ·information, but most of it was done during the early

15· ·voting time, because we wanted to make sure it was

16· ·fresh in the minds of people.

17· · · · · · · ·So most of our publicity and word of mouth

18· ·campaigns and our phone calls were during the early

19· ·voting periods.

20· · · · Q.· · ·Did you make any changes in your get out

21· ·the vote, voter registration, voter education efforts

22· ·during the 2014 election cycle, as compared to the

23· ·earlier elections?

24· · · · A.· · ·I don't know of any specific changes that

25· ·we made other than a greater amount of publicity, word



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Page 26·1· ·of mouth, phone calls, during the shorter period than

·2· ·we had done before.

·3· · · · · · · ·Each Sunday from our congregation, at least

·4· ·from our pulpit, we had a period what we called the

·5· ·bishop's moments, and those are the times when I would

·6· ·accent whatever the issues were that were coming before

·7· ·the community, and one of the greatest issues has been

·8· ·the voter election laws, the changes, the changes in

·9· ·legislature.· We've spent a lot of time making the

10· ·congregation aware of these changes, so that whatever

11· ·we needed to do to adjust, then we would make sure that

12· ·they were aware of that.

13· · · · Q.· · ·But do most people in your congregation, if

14· ·you know, come to church every Sunday?

15· · · · A.· · ·We have probably 80 percent.

16· · · · Q.· · ·Eighty percent of your members will come

17· ·every Sunday?

18· · · · A.· · ·Um-hum, and one of the three locations, if

19· ·I might add, we operate somewhat differently than a

20· ·traditional mainline Baptist church, in that even

21· ·though the church, each location have members, they are

22· ·allowed to fellowship and to be involved with ministry

23· ·in each of the other locations.

24· · · · · · · ·As the case in point, one of our

25· ·congregations meet for regular worship on Saturdays at

Page 27·1· ·12 noon, so they had the opportunity, the membership

·2· ·has the opportunity to either participate on a Saturday

·3· ·worship, we have two worships on Sunday, one at 11 at

·4· ·the mother church, and one at three at the church in

·5· ·Fuquay Varina.

·6· · · · · · · ·So they are allowed to, because of whatever

·7· ·reasons, to attend either worship.· They are allowed to

·8· ·do that, even though their membership may be assigned

·9· ·at a particular location.

10· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.

11· · · · A.· · ·So when I say 80 percent, that's what I'm

12· ·making the reference to, those persons either attend

13· ·one or the other of the worship experiences.

14· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· You mentioned that transportation to

15· ·the polls is a big part of your get out the vote

16· ·efforts, a big part of Barbee Chapel's get out the vote

17· ·efforts?

18· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

19· · · · Q.· · ·Are those rides directed primarily to

20· ·members of your church, or are they extended to anyone?

21· · · · A.· · ·They are open and extended to anyone.· We

22· ·encourage our members to make sure anyone that they

23· ·knew or get the word out.· That is available free of

24· ·charge to whomever.

25· · · · Q.· · ·And how does someone who needs a ride to

Page 28·1· ·the polls go about getting one?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Using either our email, our telephone, we

·3· ·have numbers that we distribute that persons can call

·4· ·in order to get rides to the polls.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·Let's say looking back at the 2014

·6· ·election, are you aware of anyone who wanted a ride to

·7· ·the polls but was unable to get one?

·8· · · · A.· · ·I am not aware of anyone.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·Either the primary or the general election?

10· · · · A.· · ·I am not aware of anyone that had an issue.

11· ·We did have a situation with one of our elder members

12· ·in our congregation, whose driver's license was taken

13· ·by her son and her driving privileges were revoked, and

14· ·she had no form of identification, had no way of

15· ·getting to the polls.· And we had one of our members,

16· ·who was a volunteer, that volunteered to take her to

17· ·get some identification and to make sure that she got a

18· ·ride to and from the polls.· That was probably one of

19· ·the most sensitive situations, because she's nearly

20· ·90-years old, and she did not want to miss an

21· ·opportunity to vote.· And she was really upset when her

22· ·driver's license was taken, because that was her form

23· ·of identification.

24· · · · · · · ·And so, you know, we assured her that there

25· ·was a way that we could provide an avenue for her to

Page 29·1· ·get identification.

·2· · · · · · · ·So that was one of our big success stories,

·3· ·because she began to tell people that I'm glad I'm part

·4· ·of this church, because it is really concerned about

·5· ·something other than what we do on Sunday morning.

·6· · · · Q.· · ·Are you aware of anyone in any of the

·7· ·earlier elections that needed a ride to the polls and

·8· ·couldn't get one?

·9· · · · A.· · ·Not within the area of ministry that we

10· ·have, but we were aware of persons in the community via

11· ·some of the community organizations.· That's one of the

12· ·reasons why we made our transportation available to the

13· ·full community.· It did not matter which one of the

14· ·counties it was, we offered to take them wherever they

15· ·needed to go in order to vote.

16· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know how long ago this was that you

17· ·heard through your community organizations?

18· · · · A.· · ·This was during the 2012 election process.

19· · · · Q.· · ·Do you recall when there was no early

20· ·voting in North Carolina?· Were you voting back then or

21· ·part of your church back then?

22· · · · A.· · ·I do not recall when it began, because,

23· ·again, I came here in 1988, and I know I registered in

24· ·1989.· So I do not recall when the early voting began.

25· ·I just do not recall that.



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Page 30·1· · · · Q.· · ·Do you have any memories of the get out the

·2· ·vote efforts prior to the onset of early voting?

·3· · · · A.· · ·Well, we've always engaged ourselves in get

·4· ·out the vote.· The push, as I recall, was on Election

·5· ·Day, and I don't remember, again, when the early voting

·6· ·process began, but prior to that, we had great efforts

·7· ·of publicity and drives to get people out to vote on

·8· ·the day of election.· That has always been part of our

·9· ·ministry.

10· · · · Q.· · ·And do you feel that ministry has been

11· ·successful?

12· · · · A.· · ·Absolutely.· So successful until -- unless

13· ·someone has been untruthful, we have absolutely no one

14· ·in either of our ministries who is not registered, who

15· ·is eligible and not registered to vote.

16· · · · · · · ·If I might add, the one issue that I have

17· ·encountered, as it relates to registration, is the

18· ·issue of eliminating the 16 and 17-year olds from

19· ·registering.· My own daughter had an issue where she

20· ·could not, because she just turned 18, and she's in

21· ·college, and because she was trying to get, I guess,

22· ·registered, she was not able to vote in the last

23· ·election, because her registration took place after she

24· ·was 18.· She just turned 18 this past February.

25· · · · · · · ·We have at least 15 that I can recall right

Page 31·1· ·now of 16 and 17-year olds that are in our

·2· ·congregations that are at this point not eligible to

·3· ·register, you know in advance, as had been previously

·4· ·done.· And I think that's one of the challenges that we

·5· ·face that's apathy now in our communities relative to

·6· ·the changes, because there seems to be a degree of

·7· ·uncertainty about really what the totality of this new

·8· ·law, its effects will be.

·9· · · · · · · ·So even though we've tried to explain it,

10· ·we've discussed it.· There still seems to be

11· ·uncertainty, and among our young people, there seems to

12· ·be some apathy about the voting period, and this is

13· ·what we are really working trying to overcome.

14· · · · · · · ·The earlier we were able to get them

15· ·involved, the better that we believe it was, because

16· ·the process will become a very familiar process, and

17· ·many of the young people when they go off to college,

18· ·get involved with some other things that this process

19· ·is not one of the things that's on the top of that

20· ·priority list.· And I know among African-Americans, it

21· ·is something that is very difficult for us to get them

22· ·to understand the importance of registering and voting.

23· · · · · · · ·And so I think not being able to do that at

24· ·an earlier age, at least to get registered, has created

25· ·some apathy.

Page 32·1· · · · Q.· · ·Where is your daughter in college?

·2· · · · A.· · ·She's at Johnson & Wales University in

·3· ·Charlotte.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·So if she had preregistered, it would have

·5· ·been in Durham County?

·6· · · · A.· · ·It would have been in Durham County.· Her

·7· ·residence is still in Durham County.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·But she would have voted?

·9· · · · A.· · ·She would have voted.

10· · · · Q.· · ·In Durham County?

11· · · · A.· · ·In Durham County, yes.

12· · · · Q.· · ·I'm sorry, what was the issue?· She was not

13· ·able to preregister, you're saying, as a 16 or 17-year

14· ·old?

15· · · · A.· · ·Right.

16· · · · Q.· · ·Because the law had already changed?

17· · · · A.· · ·Right.

18· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And then you said she had difficulty

19· ·getting registered after she left for college?

20· · · · A.· · ·No.· After she left for college, she

21· ·didn't, but she could not vote in the previous

22· ·election.· I mean, she wanted to.· Well, she wanted to

23· ·get registered before the previous election, and she

24· ·was not able to do that.· So it has been more of a

25· ·challenge since she has become 18, and that just took

Page 33·1· ·place this last February.

·2· · · · · · · ·So when she comes home, we've already

·3· ·discussed when she comes home, we will get her

·4· ·registered.· She will be home in a couple of weeks, and

·5· ·we'll make sure we get her registered.· But she was one

·6· ·of those apathetic young people.· Because the question

·7· ·is always raised what's next?· And we don't understand.

·8· ·And so it's difficult for them to understand the

·9· ·process and also the history of persons that have

10· ·struggled and died and whatever for the right to vote.

11· ·It's a real challenge for us dealing with our young

12· ·people right now.

13· · · · · · · ·MS. MURPHY:· I'm going to mark Exhibit

14· · · · ·27.

15· · · · · · · · · · (The document referred to was marked

16· · · · · · ·NAACP Exhibit Number 27 for

17· · · · · · ·identification.)

18· · · · Q.· · ·And go ahead and take a look at this for a

19· ·few minutes, and see if it's familiar to you, and then

20· ·I'll ask you some questions about it.

21· · · · · · · ·(Pause.)

22· · · · A.· · ·I'm familiar.

23· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And did you help to prepare, perhaps

24· ·not type this document, but did you provide the

25· ·information that's in this document?



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Page 34·1· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·And this is, just for the record, the

·3· ·plaintiffs' Responses and Objections to Defendants'

·4· ·First Set of Interrogatories to Barbee's Chapel.

·5· · · · · · · ·As you look through it, did you see

·6· ·anything that you feel like you want to change, or does

·7· ·it look accurate as of this date?

·8· · · · A.· · ·Relatively accurate.· I noticed a couple of

·9· ·spelling incorrections(sic).

10· · · · Q.· · ·That's okay.· We can let that go.

11· ·Spelling, yeah.

12· · · · A.· · ·I think in general, most of the information

13· ·that I see contained is accurate.

14· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· I'd like to direct your attention to

15· ·interrogatory number 18.· Feel free to look through

16· ·that again, if you like.· Basically the response is

17· ·talking about the people who have been involved with

18· ·get out the vote efforts.

19· · · · · · · ·Are the people that you listed here, these

20· ·are all volunteers with the church?

21· · · · A.· · ·Yes, ma'am, they are.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And what is the time frame during which

23· ·these people mentioned here have acted in this capacity

24· ·that you describe?

25· · · · A.· · ·Most of their activity was involved 30 to

Page 35·1· ·45 days prior to Election Day.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·Oh, I'm sorry, I mean like which elections?

·3· ·Is this just 2014 election cycle that these people --

·4· · · · A.· · ·No, some of these were involved in 2012.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And then what about 2010?· I mean,

·6· ·how far back?

·7· · · · A.· · ·I don't recall how far.· Several of them

·8· ·were involved in various election periods, and I don't

·9· ·recall how far back that this actually goes.

10· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Is this a typical number of people

11· ·who would be involved with your get out the vote

12· ·efforts?

13· · · · A.· · ·It does not include any of the persons from

14· ·the community or our partner church.· None of those --

15· ·these are people that are part of our specific

16· ·ministry.

17· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· So there would be, it looks like

18· ·you've got nine people listed here, and then there

19· ·would be people from the partner church as well as

20· ·people from the community?

21· · · · A.· · ·Yes, from the community, yes.

22· · · · Q.· · ·All volunteering in driving vans or

23· ·coordinating rides?

24· · · · A.· · ·Not necessarily driving the vans as it

25· ·would be helping to promote and publicize and get

Page 36·1· ·information out relative to making contacts with us if

·2· ·they needed rides to the church or any persons who

·3· ·needed to get registered.· So any combination of things

·4· ·that involve the whole voter registration and election

·5· ·process, these persons were in some way involved.

·6· · · · · · · ·MS. MURPHY:· Okay.· This will be

·7· · · · ·marked as Exhibit 28.

·8· · · · · · · · · · (The document referred to was marked

·9· · · · · · ·NAACP Exhibit Number 28 for

10· · · · · · ·identification.)

11· · · · Q.· · ·And just take a minute to look through that

12· ·and see if it's familiar to you, please.

13· · · · · · · ·(Pause.)

14· · · · A.· · ·I believe this is a relatively accurate

15· ·account.

16· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And just for the record, this is

17· ·Plaintiffs' Objections and Responses to Defendants'

18· ·Second Set of Interrogatories.

19· · · · · · · ·And I would like to ask you in response to

20· ·interrogatory -- well, just look at interrogatory

21· ·number 24, and this interrogatory asks to identify any

22· ·persons who you contend were unable to vote in the 2014

23· ·election cycle, and it refers to Session Law 2013-381.

24· ·Do you understand that's the same thing as House Bill

25· ·589?

Page 37·1· · · · A.· · ·589, yes.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·Are you aware of anyone who was unable to

·3· ·vote in the 2014 election cycle as a result of House

·4· ·Bill 589?

·5· · · · A.· · ·I am not aware of anyone that was not able

·6· ·to vote because of the bill.· The one instance was the

·7· ·lady that I aforementioned, whose license was revoked

·8· ·because of her age and driving, but we were able to

·9· ·work through that process.

10· · · · · · · ·So I'm not aware specifically of any other

11· ·persons who could not.

12· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And then if you'll look at

13· ·interrogatory number 26, the question there is, can you

14· ·identify any persons who you contend will be unable to

15· ·vote in the 2016 election cycle because they will be

16· ·unable to obtain a photo identification that is

17· ·acceptable under the law?

18· · · · A.· · ·I cannot identify any such person at this

19· ·point.· As we have new members that are becoming part

20· ·of our congregations each week, I am not able to

21· ·project who will or who will not be able to because of

22· ·that, but I know because of no same-day registration

23· ·voting, out-of-precinct voting, not having changed the

24· ·address within 30 days and that type of thing, might

25· ·create some issues.· But I'm not aware of anyone that I



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Page 38·1· ·can mention or any number of persons that I can mention

·2· ·that would be affected by it.

·3· · · · · · · ·But it would seem to me to be common.· In

·4· ·one of the election cycles myself, my voting precinct

·5· ·was changed without my knowledge, and I went to my old

·6· ·precinct to vote, and, of course, I was fortunate

·7· ·because I'm self-employed, I was able to leave that

·8· ·precinct and go to the other precinct where I had been

·9· ·assigned to vote.· But I think about persons who don't

10· ·have that luxury, that it might create that kind of

11· ·issue.

12· · · · · · · ·I know my wife works 12 hours per day, and

13· ·it was very difficult for her.· She was not able, she

14· ·works the type of job that she's not able to get off

15· ·during working hours to go, and to get from where she

16· ·worked to the polling place was real challenging, even

17· ·the last time, because the lines were really long when

18· ·she got there, and, of course, the rule, I understand,

19· ·was that anyone that was in line was allowed to vote,

20· ·but I heard, I don't know this for a fact, that there

21· ·was some places that it was difficult for people to get

22· ·in to vote because of the long lines at closing time.

23· · · · Q.· · ·Was that in Durham County?

24· · · · A.· · ·That was in Durham County.· It was the

25· ·location on South Alston Avenue, because when I went to

Page 39·1· ·do early voting, that's where I went, it was a

·2· ·tremendous, at least two and a half hour wait to get

·3· ·in, even at that location.· And I understand there were

·4· ·some issues that surround that location.· I'm not

·5· ·familiar with other locations.· I just simply heard --

·6· ·I don't know of any other locations, but that one I

·7· ·experienced some real problems, and I know my wife

·8· ·experienced some problems.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·Now, you were first talking about your

10· ·voting precinct changed, but that would have been on

11· ·Election Day?

12· · · · A.· · ·That's separate, yes, yes, that was two

13· ·separate issues, yes.

14· · · · Q.· · ·And what you were referring to with the

15· ·long lines at the South Alston site, that was an early

16· ·voting site?

17· · · · A.· · ·That was an early voting site, yes.· That

18· ·was an early voting site.

19· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Do you foresee doing voter outreach,

20· ·or have you even begun doing voter outreach to educate

21· ·people about the changes in the law?

22· · · · A.· · ·We have not set specific voter outreach

23· ·meetings, but we are planning to do that beginning in

24· ·September, because it's critical, we believe, that

25· ·people fully understand what can or cannot be allowed

Page 40·1· ·to happen in relationship to preparation for that.· So

·2· ·we want to make sure that we have ample time to get

·3· ·people prepared, whichever way this goes.· We will

·4· ·begin our campaign in September.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·And have you already begun informing people

·6· ·say in advance of the 2014 election about the

·7· ·elimination of same-day registration and

·8· ·out-of-precinct voting?

·9· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· Yes.· Yes.

10· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know of anyone who was unable to

11· ·register in 2014 because of the elimination of same-day

12· ·registration?

13· · · · A.· · ·I am not familiar with any persons where

14· ·that was the case.

15· · · · Q.· · ·Are you aware of any people who tried to

16· ·vote out of precinct during the 2014 election cycle?

17· · · · A.· · ·Not personally, I am not aware, but I was

18· ·given information, which is secondhand information by

19· ·one of our volunteers, but they were able to get the

20· ·person to the proper place in time in order to be

21· ·eligible to vote on the Election Day.· They were not

22· ·able to vote during the early election, but they were

23· ·able to vote on Election Day.

24· · · · Q.· · ·And what about the photo ID?· Are you

25· ·planning to educate voters about what they'll be

Page 41·1· ·needing in terms of an identification?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes, we've already begun to make

·3· ·announcements to that effect of what the new law really

·4· ·entails, and that will be part of our campaign that

·5· ·will begin in September.

·6· · · · · · · ·MS. MURPHY:· I think I'd like to just

·7· · · · ·take a little break and look back and see --

·8· · · · ·I think I'm near the end.

·9· · · · · · · ·(Off the record at 10:59 a.m.)


11· · · · · · · ·BY MS. MURPHY:

12· · · · Q.· · ·I don't believe I asked you, are you aware

13· ·of anyone in the 2014 election cycle who was unable to

14· ·vote because of the shortened period of early voting?

15· · · · A.· · ·No, I'm not aware of anyone, and it has not

16· ·come to my attention from any of our volunteers or any

17· ·of our meetings.

18· · · · · · · ·Part of what we are involved with involves

19· ·a joint effort, as I said earlier, between Olin T.

20· ·Binkley and Barbee.· We have a race reconciliation

21· ·ministry that has been in effect since 1994.· We

22· ·partnered in the beginning of 1994, and that has been

23· ·for the express purposes of trying to see how we can

24· ·get better race relations, how do we bring about racial

25· ·equity, how we can deal with civil rights issues,



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Page 42·1· ·justice issues, and we meet on a monthly basis.· And

·2· ·that's how we partner much of the information and share

·3· ·most of the information, is through our race

·4· ·reconciliation ministry.· And information come to us

·5· ·from various sources that we share with each other in

·6· ·order to help us plan our strategies and plan how we

·7· ·are going to deal with whatever, just not the voting

·8· ·issues, but many other civil rights issues.

·9· · · · · · · ·MS. MURPHY:· I believe that's all the

10· · · · ·questions I have.

11· · · · · · · ·MS. LIEBERMAN:· Can we go off the

12· · · · ·record for a moment?

13· · · · · · · ·(Off the record at 11:05 a.m.)


15· · · · · · · ·MS. BASCH:· We have no questions.

16· · · · · · · ·MS. MILLER:· No questions from the

17· · · · ·United States.

18· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon the deposition was

19· · · · ·concluded at 11:10 a.m.)

20· · · · · · · ·(Signature reserved.)

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Page 43·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·SIGNATURE PAGE

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·7· · · · · · ·___________________________

·8· · · · · · ·LONNIE GENE HATLEY

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11· ·SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this ______

12· ·day of_____________________________, 2015

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15· · · · · · · ·___________________________

16· · · · · · · · · · ·NOTARY PUBLIC

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18· ·My Commission expires:__________________________

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Page 44·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·ERRATA PAGE

·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·MMV

·3

·4· ·CASE NAME:· NC State Conference vs. McCrory

·5

·6· ·WITNESS NAME:· LONNIE GENE HATLEY

·7· ·DATE:· April 1, 2015

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·9· ·PAGE· ·LINE· READS· ·SHOULD READ· · REASON FOR CHANGE

10· ·______________________________________________________

11· ·______________________________________________________

12· ·______________________________________________________

13· ·______________________________________________________

14· ·______________________________________________________

15· ·______________________________________________________

16· ·______________________________________________________

17· ·______________________________________________________

18· ·______________________________________________________

19· ·______________________________________________________

20· ·______________________________________________________

21· ·______________________________________________________

22· ·______________________________________________________

23· ·_____________________________________________________

24· ·______________________________________________________

25· ·______________________________________________________

Page 45·1· · · · · · · · · · C E R T I F I C A T E

·2· · · · I, Marisa Munoz-Vourakis, RMR, CRR and Notary Public,

·3· ·the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was

·4· ·conducted, do hereby certify that the witness(es) whose

·5· ·testimony appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly

·6· ·sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness(es) were

·7· ·taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter



10· ·transcription of the testimony of the witness(es).

11· · · · I do further certify that I am neither counsel for,

12· ·related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this

13· ·action in which this proceeding was conducted, and

14· ·further, that I am not a relative or employee of any

15· ·attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereof, nor

16· ·financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the

17· ·action.

18· ·IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name

19· ·this· · of· · · , 2015.

20· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · MARISA MUNOZ-VOURAKIS

21· ·Notary #20032900127

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·3· ·NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE· · ·)· · ·OF THE NAACP, et al,· · · · · · · · )·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · Plaintiffs,· · · · · · · )·5· · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· ·1:13CV658· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·6· ·PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his· · · ·)· · ·official capacity as Governor of· · )·7· ·North Carolina, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·8· · · · · · · Defendants.· · · · · · · )· · ·____________________________________)·9· · ·LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF· · · · · ·)10· ·NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)11· · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)12· · ·and· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)13· ·LOUIS M. DUKE, et al.,· · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)14· · · · · · ·Plaintiffs-Intervenors,· ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)15· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV660· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )17· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)18· ·____________________________________)


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Page 2·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME 1

·2· · TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF REVEREND JIMMIE HAWKINS


·4· · · · · · · ·Chapel Hill, North Carolina

·5· · · · · · · · · · · March 17, 2015

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Page 3·1· · · · · · · · · APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:·2· ·Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:·3· · · · · ·Jodi Wu, Esquire· · · · · · ·Jennifer Basch, Esquire·4· · · · · ·KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP· · · · · · ·655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.·5· · · · · ·Washington DC· 20005· · · · · · ·(202) 879-5926·6· · · · · ·[email protected]· · · · · · ·jennifer.basch@kirkland. com·7·8· · · · · ·Denise Lieberman, Esquire· · · · · · ·Advancement Project·9· · · · · ·Suite 850· · · · · · ·1220 LL Street N.W.10· · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 20005· · · · · · ·(314) 780-183311· · · · · ·[email protected]· · · · · ·Jasmine Richardson, Esquire (via telephone)· · · · · · ·ADVANCEMENT PROJECT13· · · · · ·Suite 850· · · · · · ·1220 LL Street N.W.14· · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 20005· · · · · · ·[email protected]· · · · · ·[email protected]· ·Counsel for United States of America:17· · · · · ·Angela Miller, Esquire (via telephone)· · · · · · ·U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE18· · · · · ·Civil Rights Division· · · · · · ·950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW19· · · · · ·Washington, D.C.· 20530· · · · · · ·(202) 616-235020· · · · · ·[email protected]· ·Counsel for the Defendants State Board of Elections:23· · · · · ·Michael D. McKnight, Esquire· · · · · · ·OGLETREE DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C24· · · · · ·4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100· · · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina· 2760925· · · · · ·(919) 787-9700· · · · · · ·[email protected]

Page 4·1· · · · · ·TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF REVEREND JIMMIE HAWKINS,

·2· ·taken by the Defendants, at the Law Offices of Tin, Fulton,

·3· ·Walker & Owen, 312 Franklin Street, Chapel Hill, North

·4· ·Carolina, on the 17th day of March, 2015 at 9:59 a.m. before

·5· ·Lynn A. Ruggiro, Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter.

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Page 5·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CONTENTS

·2· ·THE WITNESS: Reverend Jimmie Hawkins· · · · · EXAMINATION

·3· · · ·BY: Mr. McKnight· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 6, 85

·4· · · ·BY: Ms. Wu· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·78

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·8· ·Exhibit 15· · ·Plaintiffs' Responses & Objections

·9· · · · · · · · · to Defendants' First Set of

10· · · · · · · · · Interrogatories· · · · · · · · · · · ·36

11· ·Exhibit 16· · ·NAACP Plaintiffs' Responses &

12· · · · · · · · · Objections to Defendants' Second Set

13· · · · · · · · · of Interrogatories· · · · · · · · · · 54

14· ·Exhibit 17· · ·Email string dated October 5, 2012· · 70

15· ·Exhibit 18· · ·Email dated June 20, 2013· · · · · · ·78

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Page 6·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·PROCEEDINGS

·2· · · · · · · · ·REVEREND JIMMIE HAWKINS,

·3· ·having been duly affirmed, testified as follows:

·4· · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANT

·5· · · · BY MR. McKNIGHT:

·6· · · · Q.· ·Good morning, Reverend Hawkins.· My name

·7· ·is Michael McKnight.· I'm with Ogletree, Deakins law

·8· ·firm and I am one of the attorneys who is serving as

·9· ·co-counsel for the State Board of Elections,

10· ·Defendants, in this matter along with the North

11· ·Carolina Attorney General's office.· Butch Bowers

12· ·and Bob Stephens represent Governor Pat McCrory, the

13· ·other defendant named in this lawsuit.

14· · · · · · ·We're here to take your deposition today

15· ·in a lawsuit that is known as The North Carolina

16· ·Conference of the NAACP versus McCrory and that is

17· ·pending in the United States District Court for the

18· ·Middle District of North Carolina.· We're taking

19· ·your deposition specifically because Covenant

20· ·Presbyterian Church is named as a plaintiff in this

21· ·lawsuit which challenges a law that was passed in

22· ·2013 that is referred to in the Complaint as House

23· ·Bill 589.· Are you familiar with that law?

24· · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· ·And so if I mention House Bill 589 during

Page 7·1· ·the course of our conversation today, will you know

·2· ·what I'm referring to?

·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever had your deposition taken

·5· ·before?

·6· · · · A.· ·No.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Well, the purpose of today's deposition is

·8· ·simply to find out what you know regarding the

·9· ·claims that have been made in this lawsuit.· If you

10· ·don't understand or hear one of my questions, please

11· ·let me know, I'll be glad to repeat or rephrase it

12· ·until you do understand.· Otherwise, I will assume

13· ·that you do understand my question.· Is that fair?

14· · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · Q.· ·And we can certainly take a break at any

16· ·time but I would ask that you have answer my

17· ·question before we take a break.· Is that fair?

18· · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · Q.· ·And after I ask a question, your attorney

20· ·may object, but typically you may answer the

21· ·question unless he or she tells you that you cannot

22· ·answer the question.

23· · · · A.· ·Okay.

24· · · · Q.· ·And I would ask that you please say yes or

25· ·no because the court reporter cannot transcribe

Page 8·1· ·nodding and other nonverbal responses --

·2· · · · A.· ·Okay.

·3· · · · Q.· ·-- and things of that nature.

·4· · · · · · ·And do you understand that you have an

·5· ·obligation to testify truthfully today?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Is there any reason why you could not

·8· ·testify fully and truthfully today?

·9· · · · A.· ·No reasons.

10· · · · Q.· ·So what did you do to prepare for this

11· ·deposition, if anything?

12· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Michael, just -- I think we had

13· · · · someone join on the phone.

14· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Okay, I couldn't tell if

15· · · · somebody dropped off or they joined.· I thought

16· · · · they must have gotten bored.

17· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Can whoever joined the call make

18· · · · a representation?

19· · · · · · ·MS. MILLER:· Yes, this is Angela Miller on

20· · · · behalf of the United States.

21· · · · · · ·Can you hear me?

22· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Yes.

23· · · · · · ·MS. MILLER:· Can you hear me?

24· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Yeah, we can hear you.

25· · · · · · ·MS. MILLER:· Okay.

Page 9·1· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Is there anybody else on the

·2· · · · line?

·3· · · · · · ·MS. RICHARDSON:· Yes, this is Jasmine

·4· · · · Richardson on behalf of the North Carolina

·5· · · · NAACP, plaintiffs.

·6· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· We think that's it?

·7· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Yeah, I think that's it.

·8· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Okay.

·9· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Go ahead.· Sorry about that.

10· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· No problem.

11· · · · Q.· ·So Reverend Hawkins, did you do anything

12· ·to prepare for today's deposition?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes, I read the trial statement that I

14· ·made and also read the deposit -- what do you -- the

15· ·statements that I made -- what's the word, it

16· ·begins with I.

17· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Interrogatories.

18· · · · A.· ·Interrogatories, yes.

19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· And by trial statement,

20· ·are you referring to a declaration?

21· · · · A.· ·No, I testified at the earlier trial.

22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· And you said you

23· ·reviewed the Interrogatory responses?

24· · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· ·And those were submitted on behalf of



Page 10·1· ·Covenant?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Anything else that you reviewed to refresh

·4· ·your recollection about the facts in this case?

·5· · · · A.· ·Other than conversation with the

·6· ·attorneys.

·7· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· That's fine, just don't tell him

·8· · · · what we discussed.

·9· · · · A.· ·Right, right, other than that, no.

10· · · · Q.· ·Fair enough.

11· · · · · · ·How did Covenant become a plaintiff in

12· ·this lawsuit?

13· · · · A.· ·We were approached by Attorney Irv Joyner

14· ·and to consider being a plaintiff in this lawsuit

15· ·and he said, with our governing body, the session,

16· ·and they have to make all of these types of

17· ·decisions and they voted yes to participate.

18· · · · Q.· ·And other than this lawsuit, has Covenant

19· ·ever been involved in litigation as a party before?

20· · · · A.· ·No, not as long as I've been there for the

21· ·past 19 years.

22· · · · Q.· ·And Reverend Hawkins, how long have you

23· ·been a minister?

24· · · · A.· ·I've been a minister, oh, 24 years.· I've

25· ·been ordained in the Presbyterian Church USA.

Page 11·1· · · · Q.· ·And before you joined Covenant, where were

·2· ·you?

·3· · · · A.· ·I was in Martinsville, Virginia, had three

·4· ·small churches there for five years, nine months,

·5· ·couple of hours.· I was ready to go.

·6· · · · Q.· ·I hear you.

·7· · · · · · ·And so were you -- are you an ordained

·8· ·Presbyterian minister; is that right?

·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you went to seminary?

11· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I went to Interdenominational

12· ·Theology Center, ITC in Atlanta, Georgia, got a

13· ·master's divinity degree.

14· · · · Q.· ·And does Covenant, and if I refer to the

15· ·church as Covenant, would that be fine?

16· · · · A.· ·That's fine.

17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Does Covenant have members?

18· · · · A.· ·Members?

19· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.

20· · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· ·And how many approximately?

22· · · · A.· ·220 on paper.

23· · · · Q.· ·And what does a person have to do to

24· ·become a member of Covenant?

25· · · · A.· ·Basically just express a desire to join

Page 12·1· ·the church and then you meet with session.· And the

·2· ·session literally votes you in.· We've never not

·3· ·voted anyone in.· And then they do go through new

·4· ·member training classes.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And is there any type of required fee or

·6· ·tithe that you have to give?

·7· · · · A.· ·No, just basically a verbal profession.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And how much revenue does Covenant bring

·9· ·in on an annual basis?

10· · · · A.· ·Okay, I think our budget is a little over

11· ·$200,000.· Exactly, I guess I should know this but

12· ·it's over $200,000 annually.

13· · · · Q.· ·And I know this may vary from year to year

14· ·and you can -- you can explain that, if that's true,

15· ·but how much of that revenue would you say is spent

16· ·on Get Out The Vote activities?

17· · · · A.· ·That's a difficult question to answer

18· ·because we don't have a line item in our budget

19· ·towards that, so any expenditures along this line

20· ·have to come out of the general budget, and so when

21· ·things come up then, we make, you know, revenue --

22· ·we spend the money for it but we don't really have a

23· ·line item for this.

24· · · · Q.· ·And how about voter registration, is there

25· ·a line item for that?

Page 13·1· · · · A.· ·No, it's the same.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And voter education, same thing?

·3· · · · A.· ·Same thing.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Do you believe that Covenant has been or

·5· ·will be impacted by House Bill 589?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do believe that.· I think that the

·7· ·requirements of cutting down early voting, the time

·8· ·frame from 17 days to 10 days takes a lot of effort

·9· ·to get individuals to be willing to go outside of

10· ·the life of the church and to participate in

11· ·community activities.· It takes a lot of -- you

12· ·know, we're dealing with basically volunteers and

13· ·people have their own schedules, they have

14· ·responsibilities of family at home and trying to

15· ·encourage people that this is worth participating

16· ·in.· While I think they see it as a part of the

17· ·mission of the church, still can be rather daunting

18· ·at times.

19· · · · · · ·And also we have one van and it's -- that

20· ·van has been there since I've been there, so it's

21· ·older than I am, and that van, you know, just takes

22· ·a lot of wear and tear, especially with the

23· ·reduction of the total time frame.· We got to use it

24· ·more in a shorter period of time, and also whatever

25· ·financial resources we have to expend, we have to



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Page 14·1· ·find a place to get that money from.· And we've been

·2· ·in deficit for the last five years because of our

·3· ·mortgage, and so it's -- I think it's really going

·4· ·to increase our efforts to try to participate.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Any other way that you believe that

·6· ·Covenant has been impacted or will be impacted by

·7· ·House Bill 589?

·8· · · · A.· ·For me the greatest impact is emotional.

·9· ·I think it really has had a negative impact upon the

10· ·way people look at state government.· I think that

11· ·this being a primarily majority African American

12· ·congregation with a disproportionate number of our

13· ·members have been seniors who grew up with Jim Crow,

14· ·who have had a personal negative experience

15· ·encountered with the state as far as their voting

16· ·rights.· Many of them have told me that they see

17· ·this as -- they never thought they would have to

18· ·relive this type of legislation coming from the

19· ·State of North Carolina.· We see North Carolina as a

20· ·very progressive state.· We take a lot of pride in

21· ·living in North Carolina, but right now, I think our

22· ·members are feeling that this is a bill that targets

23· ·the African American community.· They're saying that

24· ·we're trying to diminish the voting rights of

25· ·African Americans.· We don't want you to come out to

Page 15·1· ·vote because we know that in North Carolina, I think

·2· ·the number is as high as 70 percent of African

·3· ·Americans who voted in the last, at least the 2012

·4· ·election participate in early voting, so why target

·5· ·early voting?· So I think a lot of it is not just

·6· ·the drain in the physical resources, but also the

·7· ·drain in mostly feeling that well, what's the need

·8· ·for this and why do you want to do this type of

·9· ·damage to the peoples' voting rights?

10· · · · Q.· ·And beyond the early voting issue and the

11· ·emotional impact that you've described, is there any

12· ·other way that you think that House Bill 589 has

13· ·impacted or will impact Covenant?

14· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Objection, mischaracterizes his

15· · · · testimony.

16· · · · Q.· ·Well --

17· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· You can still answer.

18· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Yeah, I just think we see a strong

19· ·connection between our spiritual life and our

20· ·community life and so I think that spiritually that

21· ·it's going to -- it's a challenge for people to

22· ·understand, how did we get to where we are right

23· ·now?· We're supposed to be moving forward and a part

24· ·of the life of any church is not just the worship

25· ·life of the church or the leadership development,

Page 16·1· ·spiritual development but also civic involvement and

·2· ·they're all one.· We say that Jesus was preaching,

·3· ·teaching and healing, and so they see that this is a

·4· ·struggle to have a sense of wholeness spiritually in

·5· ·looking at how this bill -- again, I think that the

·6· ·members that I've talked to, see that it's directly

·7· ·targeting the African American community.· So it's

·8· ·really presented, I think, some unnecessary

·9· ·struggles in the hearts and minds of people.

10· · · · Q.· ·Do you personally feel the bill is

11· ·directly targeting the African American community?

12· · · · A.· ·Honestly, yes, I do.· When I look at the

13· ·fact that absentee voting, wherein primarily used by

14· ·whites and by, I think a large number of Republicans

15· ·wasn't touched, and there are less restrictions on

16· ·the absentee voting.· You don't have to have any

17· ·type of ID, you get two signatures from others, but

18· ·it actually was left alone.· And when you look at

19· ·those who utilized the areas that were attacked,

20· ·early voting, out of precinct voting, I think those

21· ·are areas that have been utilized by African

22· ·Americans.· And so again, what doesn't make sense to

23· ·me is why only these provisions?

24· · · · · · ·And then also you look at some of the

25· ·direction targeting college students, you know, we

Page 17·1· ·know that college students participated very

·2· ·strongly in the 2012 election and the 2016 election,

·3· ·and they came up with provisions against college

·4· ·students, so I think there's a lot of intentionality

·5· ·in the direction that this bill is aimed.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And have you spoken with any of the people

·7· ·who sponsor the bill in the legislature?

·8· · · · A.· ·I've not directly spoken with any of them.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In terms of --

10· · · · A.· ·But I'd like to.

11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Okay.· Okay.· And I mean and, you

12· ·know, this bill was passed in 2013?

13· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

14· · · · Q.· ·And it's 2015 now, why haven't you spoken

15· ·with any of those people?

16· · · · A.· ·That's a good question.· You know, I don't

17· ·spend -- most of my actions have been proactive

18· ·saying that we need to get people out to vote, we

19· ·need to be engaged in voter registration.· I think

20· ·that if you were to ask me that question, that would

21· ·probably be one wherein -- I don't know.· I don't

22· ·know why, I don't have a real reason, that's why,

23· ·but a lot of it has to do with time, you know, I

24· ·don't necessarily -- when I'm at the church, I don't

25· ·necessarily think about calling my legislators, I've



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Page 18·1· ·got other responsibilities to do.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Certainly.· And in terms of absentee

·3· ·voting, which is something else you brought up, you

·4· ·said that was used by predominantly white people?

·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah, a larger percentage of whites use

·6· ·absentee voting than African Americans.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And I think you also mention Republicans

·8· ·too.

·9· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

10· · · · Q.· ·Is this a Democrat Republican thing or is

11· ·it a white black thing, what do you believe?

12· · · · A.· ·No, I don't think -- well, I do think that

13· ·there are some intentions to make it partisan.· I do

14· ·remember one of the Republican precinct captains

15· ·made a comment on The Daily Show that this is going

16· ·to make it harder, I'm paraphrasing, for Democrats

17· ·to win or to participate in the process, so I think

18· ·that in the minds of some, it is a partisan.· For me

19· ·it's not, I see that this is going to be -- this is

20· ·going to hurt as many Republicans as it does

21· ·Democrats.· I think that especially people who have

22· ·issues with transportation, people who are in the

23· ·lower end of the economic ladder going to have

24· ·issues trying to satisfy some of the requirements,

25· ·so I think that -- that's what really amazes me, I

Page 19·1· ·think that a lot of constituents of those who

·2· ·sponsored this bill and created this bill are

·3· ·hurting some of their own constituents or going to

·4· ·be hurting.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Well, in terms of absentee voting, you

·6· ·said that in your view, there were less restrictions

·7· ·on absentee voting; is that correct?

·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And why couldn't African American voters

10· ·use absentee voting?

11· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Objection, calls for speculation.

12· · · · Q.· ·Well, I'll rephrase it differently then.

13· · · · · · ·Why do you think that African Americans do

14· ·not use absentee voting as heavily necessarily as

15· ·you believe they use other forms of voting?

16· · · · A.· ·There's a strong relationship in the

17· ·African American community with voting and they see

18· ·it as a symbol of pride that many individuals who

19· ·now can vote have had a lot of former Jim Crow

20· ·restrictions removed, and so I think they want to

21· ·vote in person.· I think -- I think that's what made

22· ·early voting so attractive.· One, this country,

23· ·unlike many European countries, does not get -- we

24· ·don't give people days off for voting.· We limit

25· ·voting to Tuesday within certain hours, so it's very

Page 20·1· ·difficult to vote, so I think that when early voting

·2· ·came about, it enhanced the opportunities to vote.

·3· ·We have 17 days now.· But there's something about

·4· ·going in and casting that ballot in person.· And

·5· ·again, I think in our history, I was a history major

·6· ·at North Carolina Central University with a

·7· ·concentration in African American studies, through

·8· ·reading of the relationship between voting and a

·9· ·sense of citizenship, between voting and a sense of

10· ·personhood, I think it's very attractive to want to

11· ·make that effort to go down and cast my vote in

12· ·person.

13· · · · Q.· ·And are you aware that early voting is

14· ·called one stop absentee voting, that it's sometimes

15· ·referred to in that way?

16· · · · A.· ·I might have heard that but it doesn't

17· ·ring a bell right now.

18· · · · Q.· ·Well, I mean were you aware that early

19· ·voting is a form of absentee voting?

20· · · · A.· ·I would say I would not have defined it as

21· ·such.

22· · · · Q.· ·And why is that?

23· · · · A.· ·I see absentee voting, early voting is

24· ·where you actually, in my mind, you go to the poll

25· ·and vote in person, where absentee voting is where

Page 21·1· ·you could stay at home and if you're fulfilling the

·2· ·criteria, then you can participate.· But it's

·3· ·something about going there in person, I think, that

·4· ·resonates with the African American community.

·5· · · · Q.· ·I think you touched on this a moment ago,

·6· ·but I wonder if you can help me flesh this out a

·7· ·little bit.· You said there's something about going

·8· ·there in person for the African American voter, can

·9· ·you help me with that, with some more specifics to

10· ·help me better understand what you mean by what that

11· ·something is?

12· · · · A.· ·Yeah, it's just something personal.· It's

13· ·something meaningful, it's something -- it's a level

14· ·of dignity that's involved in that.· I think that

15· ·when people -- and especially I think about seniors

16· ·again, who don't have very busy lives and they're

17· ·not moving around as much, they stay at home a lot.

18· ·I think some of them actually look forward to

19· ·voting.· And it's a cause for living in their lives,

20· ·to say, well, I cast my vote today, and I think that

21· ·to be able to go down to the polls and to -- we used

22· ·to say pull that lever, but now to check the

23· ·candidates of your choice, I think it's meaningful

24· ·to individuals.· And again, I do think that people

25· ·are seeking meaning.· I think that's why they come



Page 22·1· ·to church.· They're looking for purpose in their

·2· ·lives and I think again for African Americans, the

·3· ·right to vote, just that simple act of going down to

·4· ·the polls, and I think that's a disconnect with

·5· ·those who make these laws.· They really don't

·6· ·understand just how personal an issue this is in the

·7· ·black community and it seemed to be an affront, it

·8· ·seems to be intentional where we're going to say we

·9· ·do not want black folk in the State of North

10· ·Carolina to participate in the process.

11· · · · Q.· ·Can you explain that to me, why you

12· ·believe that it's -- you said it's intentional.

13· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

14· · · · Q.· ·I don't want to mischaracterize what

15· ·you're saying at all, but I understood you to say

16· ·that you believe that there's an intent on the part

17· ·of the people in the General Assembly to keep

18· ·African American people from voting, is that what

19· ·you believe?

20· · · · A.· ·Yeah, but again, it echoes what I said

21· ·earlier about the fact that early voting seems to

22· ·have some of the strongest prohibitions against it

23· ·and African Americans disproportionately above and

24· ·beyond any other racial ethnic group participate in

25· ·early voting.

Page 23·1· · · · Q.· ·And in your church, for example, have you

·2· ·done any sort of survey or study of the preferences

·3· ·for different types of voting or anything like that?

·4· · · · A.· ·No, we don't do a whole lot of surveys at

·5· ·Covenant.· They would not respond well to surveys.

·6· ·We're a small church, 200 people --

·7· · · · Q.· ·Sure.

·8· · · · A.· ·-- at the most, so we basically don't do a

·9· ·lot of surveys period.

10· · · · Q.· ·So this preference for in-person voting

11· ·that we've talked about, where do you get that

12· ·impression from?

13· · · · A.· ·From one, the fact that African Americans

14· ·do participate so strongly in early voting, I think

15· ·that the studies will show that, and there seems to

16· ·be evidence that from everything that I've read that

17· ·we go down to the polls to participate.· I can

18· ·remember once driving the van, taking people to

19· ·early voting and we did curbside voting and this

20· ·lady could barely get into it, we have an old van,

21· ·she had to step up into, she could barely get into

22· ·the van.· She was determined that she was going down

23· ·to vote.· And they brought the, you know, the

24· ·precinct workers came out and allowed her to

25· ·participate in curb voting and it was just -- it was

Page 24·1· ·a radiance about her that she had done something

·2· ·that was important to her.

·3· · · · Q.· ·So it sounds like that impression is just

·4· ·based upon your observations and interactions with

·5· ·people but nothing scientific or formal, is that

·6· ·fair to say?

·7· · · · A.· ·Well, it's fair to say that I don't do

·8· ·scientific polls or surveys and so that's really

·9· ·something that I don't regularly participate in but

10· ·so but, basically, what I have to go on are my own

11· ·personal impressions and experiences and what I hear

12· ·from others.

13· · · · Q.· ·Sure.

14· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Just to clarify, he's here as a

15· · · · 30(b)6 witness, not as an expert witness, so

16· · · · we're not putting him forth as, you know,

17· · · · being -- having conducted any scientific

18· · · · studies.

19· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Yeah, I understand that,

20· · · · I'm just trying to understand --

21· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· That's fine.

22· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· -- whether there's been any

23· · · · sort of study that he's conducted and that sort

24· · · · of stuff to get that impression that he has.

25· · · · · · ·You mentioned that you thought that the

Page 25·1· · · · reduction in the period of early voting would

·2· · · · be a drain on the resources for your church; is

·3· · · · that right?

·4· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And --

·6· · · · A.· ·To a degree.

·7· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Make sure you say yes or no.

·8· · · · A.· ·Okay, yes, to a degree, yes.

·9· · · · Q.· ·To a degree?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·But are you -- what degree do you think it

12· ·would be a drain on your resources?

13· · · · A.· ·Well, obviously it's not one of our main

14· ·expense items in the life of the church but I do

15· ·think that there will be some increase in the

16· ·efforts to recruit people to participate.· Also

17· ·again, a lot more wear and tear on the van within

18· ·that shorter period of time, and then any

19· ·expenditures that we have to make.· Again, it's hard

20· ·to say, you know, a lot of expenditures in the life

21· ·of the church, when you're gathering people

22· ·together, food expenditures, if you have a meal

23· ·there, people will come.· So it's hard to, because

24· ·we don't have this as a regular line item to really

25· ·project what type of expenses, but always things



Page 26·1· ·always coming up.

·2· · · · Q.· ·It would seem to me that if the number of

·3· ·days of early voting decreased, that the number of

·4· ·van trips that you would need to make would decrease

·5· ·because, for example, you would put more people on

·6· ·the van for each trip during that shorter period of

·7· ·time, is that not true?

·8· · · · A.· ·Well, in a perfect world, that is true but

·9· ·you know, peoples' schedules are different, people

10· ·just -- not everyone shows up at the same time and I

11· ·do remember very vividly when we were doing --

12· ·taking people to the polls, oftentimes, we would

13· ·just have two or three people, then they would call

14· ·and say okay, I got someone across town, so, you

15· ·know, when you're providing those type of services,

16· ·then it can indeed be scattered.

17· · · · Q.· ·Why would it require you to make more

18· ·trips on the van if there are fewer days of early

19· ·voting?· It would seem that you would make the same

20· ·number or possibly less during that ten day period.

21· ·Why do think it would require more trips?

22· · · · A.· ·Well, the unknown factor of peoples'

23· ·schedules, you know, not everyone has the same

24· ·schedule, not everyone has the same flexibility, so

25· ·just because we set up a certain time frame does not

Page 27·1· ·mean that it's going to match up with other peoples'

·2· ·schedules.· Think about the responsibilities of

·3· ·family, you think about the fact that some people

·4· ·are raising small children and other people have

·5· ·work responsibilities where they have -- they're

·6· ·given a certain amount of time that they can go to

·7· ·the polls.· Again, when I think about people who are

·8· ·on the lower economic ladder, they don't have the

·9· ·funds.· I'm a pastor, so I can go whenever I want to

10· ·and to give myself as an example, I went to

11· ·participate in early voting at South Regional

12· ·Library and when I got there, there were four or

13· ·five people there.· And so I got in line and waited

14· ·and the line grew to about 15, 20 people.· And we

15· ·had arrived at about nine because the only time I

16· ·could -- earliest as I could get there would be at

17· ·nine after dropping the kids off at school.· So we

18· ·waited for about 30 minutes and no one opened the

19· ·doors, and the hours said it was between eight and I

20· ·think three, a little -- not exact on that, but then

21· ·finally someone came by and said, "Well, this

22· ·precinct does not open until later.· The hours of

23· ·the poll are set up for the Board of Education."

24· ·And so we had to leave and go home.· Now, for me,

25· ·that was an inconvenience, I have my own car, can

Page 28·1· ·afford gas, but people using public transportation,

·2· ·people -- you can talk about almost half a day being

·3· ·wasted.· And if you go to the polls and the hours

·4· ·have been changed and have been shortened, it's

·5· ·going to take a real effort for you to do that

·6· ·again, especially when you're talking about all of

·7· ·the other responsibilities that people have.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if the hours of early

·9· ·voting changed from election to election?· So for

10· ·example, whether the hours changed from 2010 to 2012

11· ·or from 2012 or 2014?

12· · · · A.· ·Over that period of time, I have no

13· ·knowledge, but I do know that again I was told at

14· ·that location, that the hours had changed for the

15· ·last election.

16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But as compared to what?

17· · · · A.· ·Say that again?

18· · · · Q.· ·Well, you said the hours had changed but

19· ·as compared to what, for 2014 as compared to 2012?

20· · · · A.· ·Yes, I believe that is correct.

21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know how the hours for

22· ·2014 in Durham County, for example, compared with

23· ·the hours for early voting in 2010?

24· · · · A.· ·Well, I'm making an assumption, my

25· ·assumption is that they all share the same hours in

Page 29·1· ·2012, that the hours of The Board of Election were

·2· ·the hours for the polling places, but that in 2016,

·3· ·that only The Board of Election had longer hours and

·4· ·that others had abbreviated hours.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Do you mean 2014?

·6· · · · A.· ·2014, yes, the last election.· Yeah, it's

·7· ·not 2016 yet, I'm looking ahead to the voter ID.

·8· · · · Q.· ·I hear you.· We'll talk about that in a

·9· ·minute.

10· · · · · · ·Well, do you know how the hours in Durham

11· ·County for early voting in 2014 compared to those in

12· ·2010, which was the last midterm election?

13· · · · A.· ·No, I basically shared my base of

14· ·knowledge about that.· I don't have any real

15· ·details.

16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What does Covenant do to get its

17· ·members to the polls, what sorts of things?

18· · · · A.· ·Well, the first thing we do is encourage

19· ·people to vote.· We encourage them and again, I

20· ·intentionally say, you know, we can't tell you who

21· ·to vote for, you vote for the candidate of your

22· ·choice, but that's the initial call.· Second, we

23· ·offer Souls to the Polls, which is again going to

24· ·vote on Sunday.· We're utilizing our van.· We also

25· ·open up the church for any groups that want to come



Page 30·1· ·in and participate in voter registration, voter

·2· ·drives to register people to vote.· We basically

·3· ·just try to create an atmosphere that encourages

·4· ·civic responsibility and participation.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And I think earlier you said you drive

·6· ·people to the polls?

·7· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh, yes, utilizing the van.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Do you -- is it just church members you

·9· ·drive or are there other people or --

10· · · · A.· ·We've done both where we have started at

11· ·the church and had a list of the members who were

12· ·driven to the polls, but we also have opened up our

13· ·side of Souls to the Polls where we offer rides on

14· ·election day as well.

15· · · · Q.· ·Do you feel like you're successful in

16· ·giving anyone at your church who's a member or needs

17· ·a ride to the polls a ride?

18· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I think we are successful.· The

19· ·feedback has been very positive.

20· · · · Q.· ·And is there anybody that you can think of

21· ·who was a member of your church who needed a ride to

22· ·the polls who was not able to get one from you?

23· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Are you talking about a specific

24· · · · time frame, just to help him out?

25· · · · Q.· ·Sure, let's talk about in this last

Page 31·1· ·election, in 2014, can you think of anyone who asked

·2· ·for a ride to the polls and you were not able to

·3· ·provide it?

·4· · · · A.· ·I'm not aware of anyone who asked

·5· ·specifically for a ride to the polls.

·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you know of anyone who needed one who

·7· ·did not get a ride to the polls?

·8· · · · A.· ·I know of a couple of members who had to

·9· ·utilize public transportation because they had other

10· ·responsibilities at the time that we were offering.

11· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if they were able to vote

12· ·or not?

13· · · · A.· ·One, I know he was able to vote but I'm

14· ·not sure about the other lady.

15· · · · Q.· ·So public transportation is an option for

16· ·people in Durham who don't have another way to get

17· ·to the polls?

18· · · · A.· ·Public transportation is an option but

19· ·it's not a good option, I think especially for

20· ·trying to go vote.· And I think about Barbara

21· ·Little, who is a grandmother at the church who is

22· ·raising five grandchildren, so she's not just

23· ·talking about getting on public transportation,

24· ·she's also talking about getting baby-sitters or

25· ·with the worse case scenario, having to take some of

Page 32·1· ·the kids with her.· I think about individuals who

·2· ·have -- don't have reliable transportation or cars

·3· ·that they don't necessarily trust and I really want

·4· ·to say that I don't think that the General Assembly

·5· ·took into consideration the burden of having

·6· ·reliable transportation for people who don't have

·7· ·cars, that there's a lot of insensitivity in the

·8· ·fact that you're saying well, run down to the DMV

·9· ·and -- or catch public transportation.· The DMV is

10· ·not necessarily user friendly, you know, and I

11· ·travel to New York and D.C. at least three times a

12· ·year for a board meeting and my driver's license has

13· ·gotten frayed.· As a matter, the whole top has

14· ·broken off, and so I've been stopped several times

15· ·by TSA and said "Well, you know, I need to get my

16· ·supervisor to see if we will accept this."

17· · · · · · ·The last time in New York, she called the

18· ·supervisor over and they said, "Well, you need to

19· ·get a new driver's license."

20· · · · · · ·And I wanted to say, "I've been down to

21· ·DMV three times."· And I was told by DMV -- and each

22· ·time I got there, you have at least an hour's wait

23· ·with the waiting room being full.· And the last time

24· ·the officer told me, she says, "Well, if you really

25· ·want to get in and out, you're going to have to show

Page 33·1· ·up at 7:00 in the morning, an hour before we open up

·2· ·the doors, because people are starting to get in

·3· ·line between seven and eight."

·4· · · · · · ·Now, for someone who does not have

·5· ·transportation, someone who's relying on public

·6· ·transportation, and again, they're not always user

·7· ·friendly.· You're talking about a couple of hours to

·8· ·even get them to start processing you.· And DMV,

·9· ·again, I don't know whether there's a part of

10· ·makeshift, but they want to be slow as possible.· So

11· ·I think to say that people can rely on public

12· ·transportation, that's not a viable option for

13· ·everyone and I like public transportation, I believe

14· ·in public transportation but we use buses in Durham

15· ·that are slow.· I've talked with students who have

16· ·to rely on public transportation, if they miss a

17· ·bus, I'm going to get there on time, they're talking

18· ·about adding another 45 minutes, an hour wait.

19· ·Again, it's just not always reliable.

20· · · · Q.· ·When you take people to vote at your

21· ·church, for example, do you provide a daycare for

22· ·people who have kids and need to go and vote?· What

23· ·do you -- how do you deal with members of your

24· ·congregation who have the issues that you were just

25· ·talking about?



Page 34·1· · · · A.· ·Most of the members that utilize our

·2· ·transportation are seniors, so if there are children

·3· ·living with them, we're going to have to have a long

·4· ·conversation, but most of them, we don't -- I don't

·5· ·necessarily recollect any -- our having that

·6· ·discussion about providing daycare.· So it's never

·7· ·really come up, so we have not really talked about

·8· ·it.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Well, like the lady that you just

10· ·mentioned who was a grandmother, I think you said

11· ·she had five grandchildren living with her.

12· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

13· · · · Q.· ·She's not someone who's used your van

14· ·services to get to the polls in the past?

15· · · · A.· ·She did not this last election.· She had

16· ·not joined the church the previous election.

17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And if she had childcare issues, if

18· ·she called you and said Reverend Hawkins, I've got

19· ·some childcare issues, but I'd really like to vote,

20· ·what -- is there something the church could do to

21· ·help her with that?

22· · · · A.· ·Well, we would definitely try to help but

23· ·again, you know, a lot of it has to do with timing.

24· ·If you called me today and said I have childcare

25· ·issues that's going on, that's going to create a

Page 35·1· ·problem for the church because we don't have a

·2· ·daycare at the church.· But if she calls me and says

·3· ·I want to go Tuesday or Wednesday, then we would

·4· ·definitely try to work with her.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And in terms of the DMV, I think you

·6· ·mentioned your own DMV experience, when did that

·7· ·occur?

·8· · · · A.· ·That has occurred, I've been down to DMV

·9· ·three times probably over the last two years.

10· · · · Q.· ·To try to get a new license?

11· · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · Q.· ·And were you able to obtain a new license?

13· · · · A.· ·No, I left, to be candid with you because

14· ·the waiting room was full and once she gave me that

15· ·so I -- I'm flying out again in May, so hopefully

16· ·I'll be able to get it done between now and May.

17· · · · Q.· ·And all you need is a duplicate license?

18· · · · A.· ·That's all I need is a duplicate license.

19· · · · Q.· ·Were you aware you could order that

20· ·on-line?

21· · · · A.· ·No, I was not aware of that.

22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· NCDMV.gov or something.

23· · · · A.· ·I might have to try to work that out,

24· ·probably slow that way as well.

25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I want to look at a document here

Page 36·1· ·that I'm going to mark as Exhibit 15 and this is a

·2· ·document, I believe, you said you reviewed before

·3· ·the deposition today.· And I'm going to give copies

·4· ·to your counsel here, and these are just the

·5· ·Interrogatories, the first set of Interrogatories

·6· ·that Covenant Presbyterian responded to.

·7· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 15 WAS MARKED FOR

·8· · IDENTIFICATION.)

·9· · · · A.· ·Okay.

10· · · · Q.· ·And it appears and I'm looking at the

11· ·fourth page from the back, these are dated February

12· ·18th of 2014.· Do you remember providing responses

13· ·to these Interrogatories around that time?

14· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· If you need to look at it, you

15· · · · can take your time to make sure.

16· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Sure.

17· · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I just want to ask you about

19· ·certain ones of these, primarily to make sure that

20· ·the answers that were given in February of 2014 are

21· ·still accurate as of today.

22· · · · A.· ·Okay.

23· · · · Q.· ·Interrogatory 15 is the first one.· In

24· ·Interrogatory 15, you stated that Covenant

25· ·Presbyterian had only one location and that was at

Page 37·1· ·2620 Weaver Street in Durham; is that correct?

·2· · · · A.· ·Correct.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Is that still true today?

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And the next Interrogatory I want to look

·6· ·at is 17.· In Interrogatory 17, you were asked to

·7· ·list the employees or independent contractors or

·8· ·anybody else, basically, that Covenant paid for

·9· ·services, and you listed four people there in

10· ·response to Interrogatory 17.· Do you see that?

11· · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · Q.· ·Are those four people still employed by

13· ·the church today?

14· · · · A.· ·The last one, Roy Alston, no longer is.

15· · · · Q.· ·And one thing I didn't see in this

16· ·response was yourself, Reverend Hawkins.

17· · · · A.· ·Oh, okay, I'm still employed by the church

18· ·today, as of this morning.

19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You never know with the session, do

20· ·you?

21· · · · A.· ·Well, we're not Baptist, so it takes a

22· ·lot, it's a process.· I like being Presbyterian.

23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So we've got currently working for

24· ·the church today, we've got you, Reverend Hawkins,

25· ·and you're the senior pastor?



Page 38·1· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I'm solo, I'm senior, head of staff,

·2· ·I get to do it all.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I see a Timothy Williamson there.

·4· ·What is Mr. Williamson's job?

·5· · · · A.· ·He's a musician.· We have an 8:30 service

·6· ·and he plays for the 8:30 service.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And I see Glenette Murphy.

·8· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

·9· · · · Q.· ·What is --

10· · · · A.· ·Glenette's also a musician and I do need

11· ·to add one name.

12· · · · Q.· ·Sure.

13· · · · A.· ·We have Marcus, Marcus Davis -- no,

14· ·Marcus -- oh, Lord, he's one of my musicians as well

15· ·and what -- can I look at his last name?

16· · · · Q.· ·That's -- that's fine, if he's a musician.

17· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

18· · · · Q.· ·I mean the folks who are musicians, were

19· ·they involved in any sort of Get Out The Vote or

20· ·voter engagement type --

21· · · · A.· ·No, not at all.

22· · · · Q.· ·And how about Shirley Alston?

23· · · · A.· ·She's the secretary for the church.· She's

24· ·still there.

25· · · · Q.· ·And did she have any involvement in Get

Page 39·1· ·Out The Vote or voter registration activities?

·2· · · · A.· ·She -- if people called in, she would

·3· ·answer the phone.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And would she coordinate rides or who did

·5· ·that?

·6· · · · A.· ·No, I primarily did a lot of that and

·7· ·would, along with some other members.

·8· · · · Q.· ·I think that the next one I want to look

·9· ·at is Interrogatory 18.

10· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

11· · · · Q.· ·And it asks you to identify all persons

12· ·paid by you or who volunteered with you to engage in

13· ·Get Out the Vote, voter registration, voter

14· ·education activities, and in response to

15· ·Interrogatory 18, you said Bertha Breese assisted

16· ·the church in registering voters during the 2008

17· ·election cycle.

18· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

19· · · · Q.· ·What did Ms. Breese do specifically?

20· · · · A.· ·She did the organizational piece as far as

21· ·reception of names and assigned towards times.

22· · · · Q.· ·I see she was a volunteer; is that right?

23· · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·Has she volunteered to do that since the

25· ·2008 cycle?

Page 40·1· · · · A.· ·She stepped back a little bit.· She's

·2· ·gotten a little older, so she's not doing as much.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And then I see that Mary White assisted

·4· ·the church in registering voters during the 2012

·5· ·election; is that right?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And she was unpaid as well?

·8· · · · A.· ·Correct.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And did she do anything during the 2014

10· ·election cycle?

11· · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · Q.· ·And what did she do specifically?

13· · · · A.· ·Primarily trying to get the word out that

14· ·we were offering rides.

15· · · · Q.· ·In Interrogatory 19, you were asked what

16· ·other organizations you discussed, your Get out The

17· ·Vote or voter registration, voter education

18· ·activities with.· And you say that Covenant and

19· ·Covenant's members and representatives discussed its

20· ·voter registration efforts with the

21· ·Interdenominational Ministerial Alliance.

22· · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · Q.· ·What is that?

24· · · · A.· ·It's a group of clergy who meet once a

25· ·week, and as a matter of fact, I was serving as the

Page 41·1· ·chair of the Social Justice Committee at that time,

·2· ·so I was the person responsible for bringing out

·3· ·activities and not just at Covenant but in the

·4· ·community that dealt with any issues that we might

·5· ·consider relevant.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And during those meetings, you discussed

·7· ·voter registration activities and --

·8· · · · A.· ·We wouldn't necessarily have a formal

·9· ·discussion but I would share with them the

10· ·information about activities that are going on and

11· ·say, you know, this is happening, such as Souls to

12· ·the Polls, things along that line.

13· · · · Q.· ·Well, are you coordinating activities on

14· ·the name day or are you sharing best practices or

15· ·both or --

16· · · · A.· ·Well, more so sharing information about

17· ·activities -- not just things at Covenant but in the

18· ·wider community.· We necessarily didn't sit down and

19· ·plan the activities ourselves but we would

20· ·participate.

21· · · · Q.· ·And I also see that Covenant --

22· · · · A.· ·Again, excuse me, the purpose was to take

23· ·information back to their congregations, to share

24· ·with their congregations.

25· · · · Q.· ·And I see that Covenant also discussed the



Page 42·1· ·coordination of voter registration, Get Out The Vote

·2· ·activities with the North Carolina State Conference

·3· ·of the NAACP; is that right?

·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· ·And specifically, what was discussed with

·6· ·the NAACP between -- with Covenant?

·7· · · · A.· ·Well, a lot of this, being I'm the

·8· ·liaison, I'm a member of the Executive Committee of

·9· ·the State NAACP, so I was going back and forth, and

10· ·more so I would say from their end, sharing what

11· ·Covenant did, some activities that are going on that

12· ·we need to be aware of, might want to participate

13· ·in.

14· · · · Q.· ·Is there any one in particular who worked

15· ·with the NAACP?

16· · · · A.· ·That -- well, primarily with me, since I

17· ·sat on the committee.

18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

19· · · · A.· ·I was the person receiving the information

20· ·directly, so we didn't necessarily partner with a

21· ·specific individual at the NAACP.

22· · · · Q.· ·Did the NAACP ever provide funds to the

23· ·church to assist with its activities?

24· · · · A.· ·No.· But the church was open that they

25· ·could utilize the church, had several meetings at

Page 43·1· ·the church, Get Out The Vote rallies, things along

·2· ·that line.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And when did those rallies occur, did they

·4· ·occur every election cycle?

·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah, pretty much every election cycle.

·6· ·Like the last one, and I might -- not all of them

·7· ·were NAACP.· We brought in Ben Chavis but I think

·8· ·that was more with the Durham Community and Affairs

·9· ·of Black People, Get Out The Vote rally.· There were

10· ·some forums that have been going on last the three

11· ·to four years, one was a forum, not just on voting

12· ·but on healthcare, but directly in line with the --

13· ·in response to the actions of the legislators on not

14· ·expanding Medicaid.

15· · · · · · ·Reverend Barber has preached at the church

16· ·on several occasions, urging people to Get Out The

17· ·vote, things along that line.

18· · · · Q.· ·In looking at Interrogatory 20, you were

19· ·asked to identify persons who might have knowledge

20· ·relating to the allegations in the Complaint.

21· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

22· · · · Q.· ·I think you said at the beginning of the

23· ·deposition that you had reviewed -- did you say you

24· ·had reviewed the Complaint before the deposition

25· ·today?· I can't recall.

Page 44·1· · · · A.· ·Reviewed the Complaint?

·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·5· · · · A.· ·That's the piece where it defines the

·6· ·Complaint?· Which piece is that?

·7· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, it just sets out the allegations in

·8· ·the lawsuit.

·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember reviewing that?

11· · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And here back in February of 2014,

13· ·you were asked to list people who you thought had

14· ·knowledge or that Covenant thought had knowledge of

15· ·the allegations of the Complaint.· You listed

16· ·yourself and the church's treasurer, Elaine Curry,

17· ·and said that both of you were familiar with the

18· ·church's voter engagement efforts and the church's

19· ·budget, revenue and expenses, do you see that?

20· · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· ·Is that still accurate today?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes, primarily especially in relationship

23· ·to the budget, how it impacted the budget.

24· · · · Q.· ·And I think you also listed Connia Watson?

25· · · · A.· ·Yeah, Connia Watson.

Page 45·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · A.· ·He's chair of the Budget and Finance

·3· ·Committee.

·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And is there anyone else who

·5· ·should be on this list as we sit here today, who may

·6· ·have knowledge of the allegations of the Complaint?

·7· · · · A.· ·Yeah, that's kind of hard to say because

·8· ·I've not necessarily sat down and said well, you

·9· ·know, these are the allegations of the Complaint,

10· ·just more in a general conversation, but these

11· ·two -- and I think again, their focus is primarily

12· ·dealing with budgetary items.

13· · · · Q.· ·And just to be clear in terms of budget,

14· ·you can't say really what proportion of the church's

15· ·budget is expended on Get Out The Vote activities?

16· · · · A.· ·Exactly.

17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

18· · · · A.· ·Because what make that difficult is that

19· ·people don't always voucher everything, some people,

20· ·for example, if we're having the Get Out The Vote

21· ·meeting and one of the members wants to bring some

22· ·refreshments, they might voucher that to the church,

23· ·they might not voucher that to the church, because

24· ·there's so -- we have what's recorded in our budget

25· ·along the lines of expenses but also a lot of it is



Page 46·1· ·donations that people give to support the effort.

·2· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And you don't think anyone

·3· ·else at the church would have that specific

·4· ·information either?

·5· · · · A.· ·Dealing with finances?

·6· · · · Q.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · A.· ·No, no.· They better not have that

·8· ·information.

·9· · · · Q.· ·In Interrogatory 22, you were asked to

10· ·list any individuals who you had discussed any of

11· ·the allegations in the Complaint with or other

12· ·matters relating to this lawsuit, and you responded

13· ·that representatives of the church have discussed

14· ·matters relating to this action with Reverend Dr.

15· ·William Barber?

16· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

17· · · · Q.· ·And specifically what have you discussed

18· ·with respect to this action with Dr. Barber?

19· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· And just to be clear, he's asking

20· · · · you about any conversations not with attorneys

21· · · · present, so....

22· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.· Well, since we, you know, both

23· ·are part of the lawsuit, it's -- it's kind of vague

24· ·in my mind to be honest because we've had a lot of

25· ·just informal conversations about it over the years

Page 47·1· ·and -- well, over the year, and so I don't -- can't

·2· ·recollect, you know, a definitive time where we sat

·3· ·down and talked about the allegations, more general

·4· ·conversations because we've been on this journey

·5· ·together, and so really not a need to kind of rehash

·6· ·what's going on, really talking a lot about, you

·7· ·know, this is where we're going, things along this

·8· ·line, this is what we're hoping for.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And, you know, do you recall what Reverend

10· ·Barber said that he was hoping for or, you know,

11· ·where you were going?

12· · · · A.· ·Yeah, repeal of the HB-589.

13· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Anything else you can recall

14· ·specifically about your conversations with Reverend

15· ·Barber?

16· · · · A.· ·Not really, you know, again, a lot of it's

17· ·been just kind of general, ongoing conversations.

18· · · · Q.· ·And I see a Dr. Tim Tyson listed here.

19· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

20· · · · Q.· ·I believe he's a professor at Duke

21· ·University; is that right?

22· · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · Q.· ·And -- and what -- what have you discussed

24· ·about this lawsuit or anything related to it with

25· ·Dr. Tyson?

Page 48·1· · · · A.· ·Well, Dr. Tyson, the same -- the same

·2· ·exact relationship with Reverend Barber.· The three

·3· ·of us were arrested on April 29th together, so we

·4· ·have a relationship and a bond, so we -- again, a

·5· ·lot of just general conversations about where we are

·6· ·as a state, you know, what we hope for, repeal of

·7· ·589, hoping to get people involved and why the

·8· ·community get -- I think, with both of them, one of

·9· ·my issues has been getting more clergy out, more

10· ·clergy involvement, so that's something I'm sure

11· ·I've talked to them both about.· But with Tim and

12· ·with Barber, again, I see a lot of similarities as

13· ·far as the discussions are concerned.

14· · · · Q.· ·You said you were arrested with Reverend

15· ·Barber and Dr. Tyson on April 29th; is that right?

16· · · · A.· ·Correct.

17· · · · Q.· ·Was that April 29th of 2014 or 2013?

18· · · · A.· ·Thirteen, it's -- yes, '13.

19· · · · Q.· ·And why were you arrested?

20· · · · A.· ·Civil disobedience, charged with three

21· ·misdemeanor charges, failure to disburse,

22· ·trespassing, I think holding up a placard in the

23· ·General Assembly Building.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you know if House Bill 589

25· ·was being considered by the General Assembly in

Page 49·1· ·April of 2013?

·2· · · · A.· ·Was it being considered?· Define

·3· ·"considered."

·4· · · · Q.· ·Well, I guess maybe more generally, was

·5· ·the -- was the concept of voter ID, for example,

·6· ·being considered by the General Assembly at that

·7· ·time?

·8· · · · A.· ·I think the bill was passed in July.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh.

10· · · · A.· ·So I have no real knowledge of whether it

11· ·was being considered.

12· · · · Q.· ·Well, were you over there protesting the

13· ·implementation of a voter ID bill or were you

14· ·protesting something else?

15· · · · A.· ·Well, a lot of the conversation had to be

16· ·with a lot of the actions within the first 50 days

17· ·of this General Assembly. I think what caught my

18· ·attention primarily was the failure to expand

19· ·Medicaid.· I just saw that as a travesty.· I saw

20· ·that as irresponsible on the part of the state, and

21· ·so especially when I heard some of the

22· ·justifications for that, so I would not say that it

23· ·was just strictly in response to the Voter

24· ·Suppression Law, but it was in response to a lot of

25· ·the actions or non actions of this General Assembly,



Page 50·1· ·the totality of it is what we really were talking

·2· ·about at that time.

·3· · · · Q.· ·You say the Voter Suppression Law.

·4· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Specifically, what law are you referring

·6· ·to?

·7· · · · A.· ·Yeah, 589, that's what we call it.· I mean

·8· ·a lot of terms -- and that was coined by Reverend

·9· ·Barber, the Monster Voter Suppression Law and so I

10· ·kind of picked it up.

11· · · · Q.· ·I see there's a Reverend Dr. Angelo Burch

12· ·listed here.

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·Who is Reverend Burch?

15· · · · A.· ·He is the secretary for the previously

16· ·mentioned IMA, Interdenominational Ministerial

17· ·Alliance, so he would be the one a lot of times I

18· ·would communicate with as far as giving him the

19· ·agenda, talking about different issues that are

20· ·going on.

21· · · · Q.· ·And then I see Representative Larry Hall

22· ·listed here.

23· · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·And what have you discussed with respect

25· ·to this action with Larry Hall?

Page 51·1· · · · A.· ·More, again, general conversation just

·2· ·talking about wanting to see this law repealed.· No

·3· ·real specifics about the case or things along that

·4· ·line, but one pleasant surprise that I had when the

·5· ·Durham Committee on Affairs of Black People brought

·6· ·in Ben Chavis, at the end of that, Representative

·7· ·Hall and Representative Mickey Michaux presented me

·8· ·with a map of Durham and it was unexpected, and so

·9· ·at the end of the -- and I remember that because of

10· ·that, at the end of that conversation, we had some

11· ·conversation about what brought us to this point,

12· ·things along that line.

13· · · · Q.· ·So is Representative Michaux someone else

14· ·who should be added to this list?

15· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I would say you can also do that.

16· · · · Q.· ·And is there anyone else other than the

17· ·folks who are listed here and Representative Michaux

18· ·who you've discussed this action related with?

19· · · · A.· ·And by "action related with," what you

20· ·mean --

21· · · · Q.· ·Well, the lawsuit, the lawsuit or anything

22· ·related to the lawsuit.

23· · · · A.· ·I've not really had a lot of conversations

24· ·with people as far as any specifics about the

25· ·lawsuit, because as a matter of fact, I was talking

Page 52·1· ·with my wife this morning, she really -- she knows

·2· ·I'm being deposed this morning but that's about it,

·3· ·so I haven't gone around actually talking about the

·4· ·lawsuit in particular, other than again

·5· ·generalities, saying that this is something we want

·6· ·to see repealed.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And other than your oral conversations

·8· ·with the people who are listed here and

·9· ·Representative Michaux, did any of these

10· ·conversations occur by email?

11· · · · A.· ·A lot of the emails that I've had, I've

12· ·had -- I don't think I've had any with

13· ·Representative Michaux, but with Representative Hall

14· ·were more coordinating meetings.· I was once part of

15· ·a group of clergy that met with him and a lot of it

16· ·had to do with focusing on young males in the

17· ·African American community, and it kind of morphed

18· ·into something a little different, but not

19· ·necessarily conversation where we just sit down and

20· ·laid out these are the facts, this is our strategy,

21· ·more coordinating events and meetings.

22· · · · Q.· ·So have you had any emails with

23· ·Representative Hall about House Bill 589?

24· · · · A.· ·Yes.· On that topic?

25· · · · Q.· ·Yes.

Page 53·1· · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·3· · · · A.· ·Well, again, it's hard for me to say, you

·4· ·know, let me -- I don't recollect specifically what

·5· ·some of the meetings were about but I would say my

·6· ·initial response is no.

·7· · · · Q.· ·And were you aware that the defendants had

·8· ·asked for documents that relate to this lawsuit from

·9· ·all of the parties in the lawsuit?

10· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

11· · · · Q.· ·You were aware of that?

12· · · · A.· ·That I had been asked for it?

13· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.

14· · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · Q.· ·And did you make any effort to search for

16· ·any emails that you have that related to House Bill

17· ·589?

18· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I looked extensively through my

19· ·emails trying to find anything that had any type of

20· ·a close reference.

21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And any of those emails you've

22· ·produced or at least given to your attorneys?

23· · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall having any email

25· ·correspondence with Reverend Barber about House Bill



Page 54·1· ·589?

·2· · · · A.· ·Not directly, I don't have -- most of my

·3· ·conversations with Reverend Barber are verbal, you

·4· ·know, we don't -- the brother doesn't answer his

·5· ·emails.· So it's hard to, you know, get a response

·6· ·so I've not initiated any to him.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·8· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· We've been going for an hour, do

·9· · · · you want to take a break?

10· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Yeah, why don't we take a

11· · · · break now, this is a good time.

12· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Okay.

13· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON A SHORT RECESS IS TAKEN.)

14· ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

15· · · · Q.· ·Reverend Hawkins, before we took a break,

16· ·we were talking about your responses to Covenant's

17· ·first set of Interrogatories and now I'd like to

18· ·talk to you about the second set of Interrogatories

19· ·which was completed more recently by Covenant.· Is

20· ·this set of Interrogatories, you can take a minute

21· ·and review it if you need to, was this something you

22· ·reviewed before your deposition today as well?

23· · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · Q.· ·And I'm going to mark that as Exhibit 16.

25· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 16 WAS MARKED FOR

Page 55·1· ·IDENTIFICATION.)

·2· · · · Q.· ·And your counsel already have copies of

·3· ·the responses to these Interrogatories and Exhibit

·4· ·16.

·5· · · · · · ·The first Interrogatory I want to look at

·6· ·is Interrogatory 23.

·7· · · · A.· ·Okay.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And Interrogatory 23 asks what efforts

·9· ·Covenant took to identify persons who allegedly

10· ·could not vote in the 2014 election cycle, and that

11· ·include both the primary in May of 2014 and the

12· ·general election.· Do you see that?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·And the response here that Covenant gave

15· ·to this question was that it has not specifically

16· ·taken steps to identify people who could not vote in

17· ·the 2014 election cycle, but it said that it is

18· ·engaged in Voter Outreach and taking other steps to

19· ·assist its members, and what's written here is to

20· ·overcome obstacles and exercise their right to vote

21· ·in light of the restrictions and other burdens

22· ·placed on voters through the enactment, of, it's

23· ·called Session Law 2013-381 here.

24· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

25· · · · Q.· ·Do you understand that Session Law

Page 56·1· ·2013-281 is another name for House Bill 589?

·2· · · · A.· ·I do now.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Okay.· In this Interrogatory

·4· ·response, you or Covenant says, for example, it has

·5· ·participated in Get Out The Vote activities

·6· ·organized by the North Carolina Chapter of the

·7· ·NAACP, including the Freedom Summer Project.· Do you

·8· ·see that?

·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · Q.· ·What is the Freedom Summer Project?

11· · · · A.· ·NAACP hired young people, primarily

12· ·college students, they were attempting to get one

13· ·per county for the State of North Carolina to go out

14· ·and do voter registration, Get Out The Vote efforts.

15· · · · Q.· ·When did the Freedom Summer take place?

16· · · · A.· ·It was last summer, summer of 2014.

17· · · · Q.· ·And specifically how many people were

18· ·assigned to Durham County, if you know?

19· · · · A.· ·I think there was one, one young lady, her

20· ·name escapes me.

21· · · · Q.· ·And did she work with your church at all?

22· · · · A.· ·She utilized the church as a hosting site

23· ·when she would bring other college students in and

24· ·they went out throughout the community.· Also the

25· ·initial orientation and training for the students

Page 57·1· ·was held at Covenant.

·2· · · · Q.· ·So how many students were trained at

·3· ·Covenant, if you remember?

·4· · · · A.· ·Oh, it's -- it's a full room.· We have a

·5· ·fellowship hall that holds almost over 100 people

·6· ·and I think, I would guess with the trainees and the

·7· ·trainers, there were probably about 50 people there,

·8· ·at least.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And those 50 people were going to go out

10· ·all over the state to --

11· · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · Q.· ·-- register voters?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·And help with Get Out The Vote activities

15· ·too?

16· · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Make sure you let him finish

18· · · · because she's typing it.

19· · · · A.· ·Okay.

20· · · · Q.· ·And was 2014 the first year that the NAACP

21· ·had done that project?

22· · · · A.· ·As far as I'm aware, yes.

23· · · · Q.· ·I mean I remember that there's a Freedom

24· ·Summer Project that was certainly done in the

25· ·Sixties --



Page 58·1· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I think that --

·2· · · · Q.· ·-- and things of that nature?

·3· · · · A.· ·Excuse me.· I think that's where the

·4· ·concept came from.

·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· But to your knowledge,

·6· ·2014 was the first year it had been done here in

·7· ·North Carolina?

·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And based upon your knowledge of the

10· ·project, do you feel like that project was

11· ·successful?

12· · · · A.· ·I don't have any real details, you know,

13· ·about how successful.· I know it was very

14· ·encouraging and -- hopefully it was, but we -- I

15· ·don't ever recollect being part of a discussion on

16· ·the success or failure of the project.

17· · · · Q.· ·Interrogatory 24, Covenant was asked to

18· ·identify any persons who had contended were unable

19· ·to vote in the 2014 election cycle because of

20· ·Session Law 2013-381 or House Bill 589, whatever you

21· ·want to call it, and the response listed here is

22· ·that Neal Hawkins, who's your brother, was unable to

23· ·vote in the November 2014 general election, and it

24· ·says here "because of the elimination of same day

25· ·registration."

Page 59·1· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

·2· · · · Q.· ·Can you explain to me what happened there?

·3· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.· Neal relocated from Vance County

·4· ·in the fall of last year and he's on hard times,

·5· ·difficult times, so he lived with my mother for a

·6· ·little while, but eventually had to find some

·7· ·temporary housing.· And he was a resident -- he was

·8· ·registered in Vance County and so I remember the

·9· ·conversation we had when I asked him.· It was pretty

10· ·late in the election season.· "Have you voted yet?"

11· · · · · · ·He says, "Well, I'm registered to vote in

12· ·Vance County, so I can't vote in Durham County."

13· · · · · · ·So with the elimination of same day

14· ·registration, that took away that possibility for

15· ·him.· He doesn't have a car, very limited options as

16· ·far as going back and making all of the necessary

17· ·changes or whatever he needs to do.· So he did not

18· ·vote in this last cycle.

19· · · · Q.· ·And in order to change his voter

20· ·registration, why would he need a car to change his

21· ·voter registration?

22· · · · A.· ·Well, simply to -- well, I gather by your

23· ·question, he can do that on-line.

24· · · · Q.· ·Well, you know, for example, my

25· ·understanding is that you can -- you can register to

Page 60·1· ·vote through the mail.· You can send in a form

·2· ·through the mail.· You know, was he unable to send

·3· ·in that form through the mail 25 days before the

·4· ·election?

·5· · · · A.· ·My personal response is his organizational

·6· ·skills and his follow-through, remembering the need

·7· ·to do it, I think it prohibited him from doing it.

·8· ·Again, I had a lot of energy behind it but once --

·9· ·and he did not initiate the discussion, I had to ask

10· ·him, initiate the discussion, so -- but I do

11· ·remember very vividly that he shared with me the

12· ·fact that he was not a registered Durham County

13· ·resident, that he would be unable to vote here.

14· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember specifically what

15· ·month he moved to Durham County?

16· · · · A.· ·I was trying to remember that.· I'm hazy

17· ·on that.· All I remember is that -- I don't remember

18· ·the month.· I do remember it was the fall-ish, you

19· ·know, I knew it was not early fall, so whether it

20· ·was August, September, roughly that time frame.

21· · · · Q.· ·And in the response to Interrogatory 24,

22· ·it states that the church is engaged in voter

23· ·outreach and taking steps to assist its members to

24· ·exercise a right to vote in light of the

25· ·restrictions and other burdens placed on voters

Page 61·1· ·through the enactment of Session Law 2013-381, do

·2· ·you see that?

·3· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

·4· · · · Q.· ·What specific steps, if any, have you

·5· ·taken in response to the charges that were made in

·6· ·House Bill 589 or Session Law 2013-381, whatever you

·7· ·want to call it?

·8· · · · A.· ·Yeah, you know, being a non profit and

·9· ·being a church, you know, I kind of tread a very

10· ·fine line and a lot of it has been verbal.· I've

11· ·shared with them the Moral Monday movement and asked

12· ·them to, you know, if they feel that they can

13· ·participate, not necessarily to be arrested but to

14· ·be there, especially in light of some of the

15· ·protests against voting restrictions.· Also make

16· ·sure that they were aware of Get Out The Vote

17· ·rallies that were going on in the city and when we

18· ·had the event at Covenant, just sharing a lot -- a

19· ·lot of it, I think, primarily is through sharing of

20· ·information but also encouraging people to get out

21· ·and vote.

22· · · · Q.· ·I take it that you've been doing those

23· ·types of activities, and by that I mean, voter

24· ·outreach, Get Out The Vote, voter registration

25· ·activities since you've been a minister at Covenant,



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Page 62·1· ·is that fair?

·2· · · · A.· ·I think that's a fair statement.· I do

·3· ·again -- I do try to be very mindful of the

·4· ·relationship between the church and the state and

·5· ·so -- and keep in mind that not all of our members

·6· ·are of one particular party, so I never endorse

·7· ·candidates, things along that line, just basically

·8· ·try to encourage people to see this as a part of our

·9· ·spiritual development, civic responsibility and

10· ·involvement in the larger community.

11· · · · Q.· ·So I think early voting started around

12· ·2000.· For example, before early voting existed, how

13· ·did the church engage in Get Out The Vote efforts,

14· ·for example?

15· · · · A.· ·I came to the church in 1996, so I can't

16· ·really speak to before then.· I think a lot of

17· ·the -- I think our insistence has always -- we'll

18· ·stress get out and vote, you know, go out and vote,

19· ·but if you asked me between '96 and 2000, specific

20· ·details, I don't really recollect specific details,

21· ·but I always made a point of when elections come

22· ·around, encouraging people verbally to participate

23· ·in the process.

24· · · · Q.· ·Well, if you were going to take people to

25· ·the polls before early voting existed, you would

Page 63·1· ·have had to have taken them only on election day, is

·2· ·that fair?

·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember doing that at all?

·5· · · · A.· ·Let me think about when I first -- I have

·6· ·vividly a situation where I drove the van.· I --

·7· ·I -- I don't recollect.· I got this one story that I

·8· ·tell all the time when I went into a nursing home

·9· ·driving the van and the lady was there at the door

10· ·and she asked, in the wheelchair, she said, "Are you

11· ·here to get me?"

12· · · · · · ·I said, "Yes."

13· · · · · · ·So I grabbed her and started taking her

14· ·out to the van, and one of the employees ran up and

15· ·says, "Where are you taking that lady?"

16· · · · · · ·I said, "Well, I'm taking her to vote."

17· · · · · · ·She said, "She doesn't know anything about

18· ·voting, she thinks you're her son."

19· · · · · · ·So she says, "Will you come get me."· So I

20· ·don't -- I tell the story, I don't remember the year

21· ·that that happened but I do know that we were

22· ·available to take people to the polls before Get Out

23· ·The Vote or early voting.

24· · · · Q.· ·Do you feel like those efforts were

25· ·successful before early voting was in place?

Page 64·1· · · · A.· ·It's hard to measure it.· And again, to be

·2· ·honest with you, my memory is vague as far as

·3· ·defining success or no success but I do know it was

·4· ·very fulfilling and it really was heartfelt for me

·5· ·because again, I encourage people to participate and

·6· ·I believe that the strongest way to encourage others

·7· ·is by participating myself.

·8· · · · Q.· ·Thinking back to the 2010 and 2012

·9· ·elections and comparing that to 2014, is there

10· ·anything that Covenant did differently between the

11· ·2010 and 2012 elections and the 2014 elections as a

12· ·result of House Bill 589 and the changes that were

13· ·made?

14· · · · A.· ·I think there's just been a lot of

15· ·increased activity, a lot of increased

16· ·conversations, a lot of increased focus upon the

17· ·importance of voting now, so some of the actions are

18· ·the same, they've been consistent over the years but

19· ·I do think they've become more condensed and more of

20· ·them.

21· · · · Q.· ·Is it fair to say then that you're not

22· ·prohibited by House Bill 589 from engaging in Get

23· ·Out The Vote or voter education or voter

24· ·registration efforts but you may have to do them

25· ·differently than you've done them in the past?

Page 65·1· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I would say with more energy, with

·2· ·more focus and a lot more organization because

·3· ·again, we're trying to tie in not only with our own

·4· ·schedule but also peoples' personal schedules.· But

·5· ·I'm not aware of any things that would prevent us

·6· ·from participating as long as we stay within, you

·7· ·know, the lines.

·8· · · · Q.· ·I want to look at Interrogatory 25 next.

·9· ·It asks you in Interrogatory 25 to identify all

10· ·efforts made by Covenant to identify individuals who

11· ·will not be able to vote during the 2016 election

12· ·cycle because they don't have photo ID.· Do you see

13· ·that?

14· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

15· · · · Q.· ·And the response here was that Covenant

16· ·has not attempted to specifically identify any

17· ·individuals in that category; is that right?

18· · · · A.· ·That is correct.

19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And looking at Interrogatory 26,

20· ·that's a continuation of it, it just asked Covenant

21· ·to identify any persons who Covenant believes will

22· ·be unable to vote in the 2016 election cycle because

23· ·the person cannot obtain a photo identification.

24· ·And the response here is that Covenant hasn't

25· ·specifically identified anybody who will not be able



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Page 66·1· ·to participate in the 2016 election cycle because

·2· ·they don't have a photo ID.· Do you see that?

·3· · · · A.· ·It says it has not attempted to

·4· ·specifically identify that.· Sorry, I wasn't clear

·5· ·what you asked.

·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, so, if you haven't attempted to

·7· ·specifically identify anybody who won't be able to

·8· ·vote in 2016 because they don't have a photo ID, I

·9· ·take it that you have not, in fact, specifically

10· ·identified anybody who will not be able to vote in

11· ·2016 because they do not have a photo ID, is that

12· ·fair?

13· · · · A.· ·Well, I would say that's definitely beyond

14· ·our scope, beyond our ability to do because, you

15· ·know, we just don't have the resources or the man

16· ·woman power to participate in a lot of activities.

17· ·As far as going out and saying, well, we're going to

18· ·identify people who won't be able to vote, so, yeah.

19· · · · Q.· ·And I understand that, I guess the reason

20· ·why I'm asking Covenant this question is to

21· ·determine whether you and all of the activities that

22· ·you're involved in in terms of voter education, Get

23· ·Out The Vote have become aware of people, maybe not

24· ·even consciously trying to, who will be unable to

25· ·vote because they can't get a photo ID.· So I guess

Page 67·1· ·that's really my question.· Is Covenant aware of

·2· ·anyone who will not be able to vote because they

·3· ·lack a photo ID in 2016?

·4· · · · A.· ·If you are asking me can I name people,

·5· ·you know, I will say that we live right next door to

·6· ·a public housing community, if we were to engage in

·7· ·that type of activity, that that would be the first

·8· ·place that we would start and try to identify

·9· ·individuals.

10· · · · Q.· ·And are there any plans for Covenant to do

11· ·that at this time?

12· · · · A.· ·Primarily because I think we've got our

13· ·hands full right now, that that's not been a topic

14· ·of discussion but we do partner with others, for

15· ·example, it was the -- I think it was voter

16· ·registration community of the NAACP, they used

17· ·Covenant as a starting place where they parked their

18· ·cars there and they did go throughout our community

19· ·trying to identify people who had not voted.

20· · · · Q.· ·You said the NAACP was doing that?

21· · · · A.· ·Yes, yes.

22· · · · Q.· ·Was it a particular branch of the NAACP?

23· · · · A.· ·It was the Durham NAACP.

24· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if they were in fact able

25· ·to identify people who would not be able to vote

Page 68·1· ·because --

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· ·-- of the photo ID issue?

·4· · · · A.· ·In reference to the photo ID, I'm not

·5· ·quite sure whether that was our point of focus, but

·6· ·I do know they came back with lists of people that

·7· ·they had contacted.

·8· · · · Q.· ·And when did that occur?

·9· · · · A.· ·That should have been, I think that was

10· ·either late 2013 or early 2014.· I'm not quite sure

11· ·which, but in that time frame.· I remember it was

12· ·after the first -- well, I think that's -- that's as

13· ·correct as I can recollect.

14· · · · Q.· ·But you believe they collected a list of

15· ·people?

16· · · · A.· ·Oh, yeah, I talked with -- matter of fact,

17· ·Paul Luebke, Representative Paul Luebke's son, Theo

18· ·Luebke was the lead person on that.· And he did -- I

19· ·kind of listened to their conversations when they

20· ·gathered that evening that they felt they had been

21· ·successful in identifying the individuals.

22· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if they did anything to

23· ·assist those individuals in being able to vote?

24· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· To the extent that you know.

25· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I'm not quite sure what the process

Page 69·1· ·was that they followed, so I don't know how far they

·2· ·went.

·3· · · · Q.· ·And you don't have any idea of the number

·4· ·of names on the list?

·5· · · · A.· ·No, not at all.

·6· · · · Q.· ·You don't obviously have a copy of that

·7· ·list?

·8· · · · A.· ·No.

·9· · · · Q.· ·If someone came to you, Reverend Hawkins,

10· ·and said I'd like to vote in 2016 but I don't have a

11· ·the photo ID I need and I need some help, do you

12· ·feel like you or Covenant would be able to assist

13· ·that person?

14· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Objection, calls for speculation.

15· · · · · · ·You can answer.

16· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Would be able to?

17· · · · Q.· ·Yes.

18· · · · A.· ·We would want to, definitely.· Again, it's

19· ·kind of hard to say what we would be willing to do

20· ·because I'm not really informed by all of the steps

21· ·that they would have to follow and to be candid with

22· ·you, that's a part of my heart, I want to help

23· ·people to being able to do the things that they want

24· ·to do and I want to outreach the people, but again,

25· ·I know things are all the times much more



Page 70·1· ·complicated than our desire.· But again, we don't

·2· ·have any revenue set aside for that purpose in the

·3· ·church.

·4· · · · Q.· ·That's all the questions I have on those.

·5· · · · · · ·I'm going to hand you another document

·6· ·that I want to mark as Exhibit 17.

·7· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 17 WAS MARKED FOR

·8· ·IDENTIFICATION.)

·9· · · · Q.· ·Reverend Hawkins, I believe this is a

10· ·document that was produced to us by Covenant's

11· ·counsel, the bottom of the page has a number

12· ·NCSC1174 and I want to give you a moment to look at

13· ·it.

14· · · · A.· ·Okay.

15· · · · Q.· ·And let me know when you're ready for some

16· ·questions.

17· · · · A.· ·Okay.

18· · · · Q.· ·Reverend Hawkins, do you recognize this

19· ·document that is marked as Exhibit 17?

20· · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· ·What is it?

22· · · · A.· ·It's an email from one of the members of

23· ·Covenant, Mary White, and talking about her desire

24· ·to help in voter registration.

25· · · · Q.· ·And I believe the email chain starts on

Page 71·1· ·Wednesday, October 3rd of 2012, is that right,

·2· ·looking at the bottom?

·3· · · · A.· ·Yes, October 3rd, yes.

·4· · · · Q.· ·And in that email, it's sent from Mary

·5· ·White to you and there's a cc. to Fay Mitchell?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, she's also member of the church.· And

·7· ·they were part of the -- I don't know whether it was

·8· ·for this purpose but they were both members of the

·9· ·Evangelism Committee.· That's the only connection I

10· ·can think as far as other than being members of the

11· ·church.

12· · · · Q.· ·And the subject of the email is

13· ·"Clarification of part of Covenant Souls to the

14· ·Polls proposal." Do you see that?

15· · · · A.· ·Uh-uh.

16· · · · Q.· ·And Miss White is here talking about

17· ·transporting members, I assume she means members of

18· ·the church, who live in nursing homes to the polls?

19· · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · Q.· ·Do you see that?

21· · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · Q.· ·Is that something Covenant did during

23· ·2012?

24· · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And Miss White expresses the belief

Page 72·1· ·that only about half of those members in nursing

·2· ·homes or their homes would be considered lucid

·3· ·enough to vote and for us to evade the charge of

·4· ·participating in voter fraud, which she says, is of

·5· ·course, not our objective.· And then she says, "I do

·6· ·think about half could use our help."

·7· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

·8· · · · Q.· ·How does Covenant go about determining, as

·9· ·Miss White here says, who is lucid enough to vote

10· ·and who is not?

11· · · · A.· ·I would say in reference to this email,

12· ·just personal knowledge of their physical state,

13· ·because I know Mr. -- the individuals that she

14· ·mentions, I think her analysis is pretty correct.

15· · · · Q.· ·So she talks about George Williams and his

16· ·son would be capable of good decision making?

17· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

18· · · · Q.· ·Do you have any idea what she means by

19· ·that?

20· · · · A.· ·Well, with George, in particular, George

21· ·has suffered a stroke, I came in '96, I think a

22· ·couple of years after that, around 1998, and so he

23· ·had -- but he had recovered mentally very well, so

24· ·when we would go visit George, we would have candid

25· ·conversations, especially about the church and the

Page 73·1· ·life of the church, his involvement, so yes.

·2· · · · Q.· ·And do you know whether in 2012 any of the

·3· ·people listed in this email, whether it be Mr.

·4· ·Williams and his son, I see a Carl Hodges, and I see

·5· ·some others listed as well, do you know if any of

·6· ·those people were actually transported to the polls

·7· ·by Covenant?

·8· · · · A.· ·I believe Ms. Nannie Ruth was, I'm not

·9· ·really sure about the others, but I'm almost

10· ·positive Ms. Nannie Ruth was transported to the

11· ·polls.· Carl I would be surprised because he has two

12· ·sons in the city and I think they would have taken

13· ·care of his transportation.

14· · · · Q.· ·And the next email up in the chain is an

15· ·email from you to Mary White and that's also sent

16· ·October 3rd, 2012.

17· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

18· · · · Q.· ·And you tell Miss white that you met that

19· ·morning with a representative from the Obama

20· ·Campaign Headquarters who is interested in getting

21· ·people to polls for early voting in a program called

22· ·Souls to the Polls.· Do you recall anything about

23· ·your meeting with the folks at Obama Campaign

24· ·Headquarters?

25· · · · A.· ·If I'm remembering correctly now, I



Page 74·1· ·participated in some of the outreach of the Obama --

·2· ·I was a volunteer for the Obama Campaign for both

·3· ·elections, and so I don't think it was necessarily a

·4· ·meeting where she came to the church, I think it was

·5· ·part of my doing phone banks, but as part of my

·6· ·history, I've been very involved in campaigns.· One

·7· ·of our members, Thomas Stith, was a Republican, ran

·8· ·for -- he ran for assistant governor.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Lieutenant governor.

10· · · · A.· ·Lieutenant governor, yeah, and so I was

11· ·part of an advisory committee, matter of fact,

12· ·myself and two other members from the church were as

13· ·well, so I have a long history.

14· · · · · · ·So again, to answer the question directly,

15· ·I don't remember her initiating, kept saying well,

16· ·we want you to recruit people, but I think it was

17· ·part of a conversation we had while I was doing a

18· ·phone bank.

19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember who the

20· ·representative from the Obama Campaign was?

21· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I don't remember her name.· I do

22· ·remember it was a female, but, yeah.

23· · · · Q.· ·And it appears that on Friday of October

24· ·5th, 2012, Miss White responded to you to let you

25· ·know that she was registering voters also for the

Page 75·1· ·Obama Campaign Headquarters and then she goes on to

·2· ·talk about, she mentions two dates here, the 28th

·3· ·and the 21st, and she talks first about a Durham

·4· ·CAN Souls to the Polls event on the 28th.· Do you

·5· ·know what she's referring to there?

·6· · · · A.· ·Durham CAN is an advocacy, a non-profit in

·7· ·Durham community.· CAN stands for Communities And

·8· ·Neighborhoods, so they are very much of an advocacy

·9· ·committee, so I would -- I'm -- I did not attend

10· ·that event but I would imagine they were encouraging

11· ·people to provide transportation on that Sunday.

12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then she mentions the Obama For

13· ·America Souls for the Polls on the 21st.· Do you

14· ·see that?

15· · · · A.· ·OFA Souls -- yes.

16· · · · Q.· ·Do you see that?

17· · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember anything about the

19· ·Obama For America Souls for the Polls event on the

20· ·21st, does that....

21· · · · A.· ·No.

22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But is it fair to say that

23· ·different organizations sponsored different Souls to

24· ·the Polls events on different days?

25· · · · A.· ·Yes, it would be fair but I do think it's

Page 76·1· ·interesting when you look at the response, I think

·2· ·one of the other reasons there are so many because

·3· ·the response is varied.· I attended in this last

·4· ·election, there were two on the same day within a

·5· ·couple of hours of each other and the one at North

·6· ·Carolina -- it started from North Carolina Mutual

·7· ·Building in Durham, had a very low attendance.· And

·8· ·then another one was actually where Representative

·9· ·Hakeem Jeffries from New York came, so that one was

10· ·better attended.· So I think that there are --

11· ·Durham has a pretty good response as far as

12· ·organizations, trying to rally people to Get Out The

13· ·Vote, but again, the response to that, to those

14· ·initiatives is varied.

15· · · · Q.· ·And so I think Miss white was encouraging

16· ·you to wait to the 28th to participate in Souls of

17· ·the Polls, and she also adds, "I do not believe I

18· ·could expend sufficient energy to do both." I

19· ·assume she's referring to both of the dates, the

20· ·21st and the 28th, do you see that?

21· · · · A.· ·No, so yeah, especially that part where

22· ·she's suggesting that I wait until the 28th, where

23· ·is that found?

24· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, it says -- the next sentence here it

25· ·says, "It would give us a longer time to work and

Page 77·1· ·get organized if we wait to attend on the 28th. I

·2· ·also do not believe I could expend sufficient energy

·3· ·to do both."· Do you remember that?

·4· · · · A.· ·Now that I read it and to be candid with

·5· ·you, yes, but Mary's the type of individual, if Mary

·6· ·says she cannot expend the energy, then -- Mary's

·7· ·high energy, and she's very involved and very

·8· ·committed, you can see from this email, but I don't

·9· ·remember outside of what I'm reading now to be

10· ·honest with you.

11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall whether there was a

12· ·discussion or debate within the church about which

13· ·of the two Sundays in 2012 that the church would

14· ·participate in Souls to the Polls on?

15· · · · A.· ·Not an organized time of the week I get to

16· ·talk about it.· I think a lot of it was probably

17· ·people amongst themselves and Mary advocating for

18· ·individuals to be involved.

19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I mean, I see Mary's advocating

20· ·that you save up your efforts for one Sunday in

21· ·particular, do you see that?

22· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh, you're talking about the 28th?

23· · · · Q.· ·Yes.

24· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

25· · · · Q.· ·Is that your interpretation of what she



Page 78·1· ·was saying?

·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then your response to that was

·4· ·what?

·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I basically said the session

·6· ·approved both dates to participate here.

·7· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember whether or not you did

·8· ·participate in both dates?

·9· · · · A.· ·I don't remember to be honest with you.

10· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And at the top of this page,

11· ·part of it's been redacted.

12· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

13· · · · Q.· ·Did you perhaps forward this email to your

14· ·attorneys, is that what happened?

15· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

16· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· That's what happened, I can make

17· · · · a representation that that's what happened.

18· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Okay, fair enough, I just

19· · · · didn't know what the redaction was.

20· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Yeah.

21· · · · Q.· ·And the next document I want to share with

22· ·you is one that I want to mark as Exhibit 18.

23· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 18 WAS MARKED FOR

24· ·IDENTIFICATION.)

25· · · · Q.· ·I want to give you a moment to look at

Page 79·1· ·this document and then you can let me know when

·2· ·you're ready for some questions.

·3· · · · A.· ·Okay.

·4· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Reverend Hawkins, do you

·5· ·recognize this document that is marked Exhibit 18?

·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.· I recognize -- I don't necessarily

·7· ·recognize the document but I recognize the details

·8· ·within the document.· I've had some of the emails I

·9· ·don't remember.

10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And this is a document that is, I

11· ·think it's dated Thursday, June 20, 2013; is that

12· ·right?

13· · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· ·It appears to be an email that was sent to

15· ·Vivian Timlic, Fred Foster, Jr. and you, and I can't

16· ·tell who it was sent from, it's signed by someone

17· ·named Theo.

18· · · · A.· ·Yeah, Theo Luebke.

19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is that Representative Luebke's

20· ·son?

21· · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · Q.· ·And how does Theo Luebke relate to your

23· ·church?

24· · · · A.· ·He has no formal relationship to the

25· ·church, he's not a member or anything along that

Page 80·1· ·line, but Theo, I was -- I taught a class at Duke

·2· ·Divinity School, the Spirit Formation Class for new

·3· ·seminary students and he was part of my group, so he

·4· ·and I got to know each other through that and became

·5· ·quite good friends since then.

·6· · · · Q.· ·And he's worked with you since then on Get

·7· ·Out The Vote and voter registration?

·8· · · · A.· ·Yeah, various events and activities.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And who is Vivian Timlic?

10· · · · A.· ·Vivian is, I think her position is

11· ·secretary, but she's with the Durham Branch of the

12· ·NAACP, but I think she's the secretary, but I'm not

13· ·quite sure.

14· · · · Q.· ·And then I see Fred Foster on here.

15· · · · A.· ·He's the president.

16· · · · Q.· ·Of the Durham NAACP?

17· · · · A.· ·Correct.

18· · · · Q.· ·And do you know at that time, was he also

19· ·Chairman of the Durham Democratic Party?

20· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure, I'm not sure about the time

21· ·frame with that, yeah, or I didn't know Fred was the

22· ·Chair of the Durham Democratic Party, I know he was

23· ·a county commissioner.

24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And maybe that's a better question.

25· ·To your knowledge, has Fred ever served as Chair of

Page 81·1· ·the Durham Democratic Party?

·2· · · · A.· ·Not that I'm aware.

·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· And you said he was a

·4· ·county commissioner at one point?

·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah, he still is.

·6· · · · Q.· ·Did he also run a group at one point

·7· ·called the Durham Voter Coalition, do you remember

·8· ·that?

·9· · · · A.· ·I'm not familiar with that organization.

10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And this email that is Exhibit 18,

11· ·what's the purpose of this email?

12· · · · A.· ·From what I can read, it's organizational

13· ·steps.· He's trying to make this happen and it did

14· ·occur at Covenant, so I think he's -- he just put me

15· ·on, I think, because we were the host site but he

16· ·was doing this through the Durham branch.

17· · · · Q.· ·So this was a coordinated voter

18· ·registration Saturday with the Durham branch of

19· ·NAACP?

20· · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· ·And just out of curiosity, why was this --

22· ·it appears this was done on a Saturday, it's

23· ·referenced Saturday, June 29th at the top, do you

24· ·see that subject line?

25· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.



Page 82·1· · · · Q.· ·Why was it on Saturday rather than a

·2· ·Sunday, for example?

·3· · · · A.· ·I don't know.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you don't have any trouble

·5· ·getting people to participate in things like this on

·6· ·a Saturday?

·7· · · · A.· ·Well, in the life of the church, because,

·8· ·you know, a number of our members do work during the

·9· ·weeks, Saturday oftentimes becomes the day when

10· ·people try to do things, and I think he probably,

11· ·since he was working with volunteers, they didn't

12· ·have to work.

13· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· I don't think I have any

14· · · · more questions for Reverend Hawkins at this

15· · · · time.

16· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Okay.· Do you want to take a

17· · · · quick break?

18· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Sure, that's fine.

19· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON A SHORT RECESS IS TAKEN.)

20· · · · · EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFFS

21· · · · · · · ·BY MS. WU:

22· · · · Q.· ·I just have a few questions for you,

23· ·Reverend Hawkins.· Mr. McKnight was asking you some

24· ·questions about early voting and sort of the

25· ·resources used by Covenant Presbyterian post HB-589.

Page 83·1· ·Has Covenant Presbyterian experienced any change in

·2· ·the amount of resources it's needed to expend with

·3· ·the elimination of the first Sunday for early voting

·4· ·post HB-589?

·5· · · · A.· ·A lot of the resources that we have

·6· ·expended I would say have increased as far as the

·7· ·emotional energy that it takes to rally volunteers

·8· ·to participate in this whole process, a lot of

·9· ·resources are -- when you're dealing with a church,

10· ·you're dealing with human power, you know, getting

11· ·people to come out and I think a lot of it has been

12· ·an emotional drain, trying to get people to be

13· ·excited about this process, feeling that it's almost

14· ·an uphill battle.· And again, as I earlier stated,

15· ·we don't have it as a line item, so it's hard to

16· ·measure the financial resources and the differences

17· ·in that.

18· · · · Q.· ·Have you had any trouble finding

19· ·volunteers for just one specific Sunday, whereas

20· ·previously you had two Sundays that you could....

21· · · · A.· ·It definitely made it more problematic, it

22· ·made it more difficult because again, I think the

23· ·thing that people think that churches are just awash

24· ·with volunteers but they're not, and when you start

25· ·breaking the total number down, you take out the

Page 84·1· ·age, you take out the children, you take out those

·2· ·with family responsibilities, work responsibilities,

·3· ·you're talking about a small group of individuals

·4· ·who are available, so it definitely has been a

·5· ·struggle to try to encourage people to, especially

·6· ·if they've done it in the past, they understand the

·7· ·importance of it but well, I've been there, I've

·8· ·done that, so trying to rally people to see that,

·9· ·especially things like off presidential elections,

10· ·you know, obviously the Obama Campaign, it was a

11· ·rally and cry for the African American community so

12· ·you really want to be involved, but then when you're

13· ·talking about smaller elections, it just becomes a

14· ·real effort and, to be honest with you, I've had to

15· ·be the point person to do some of this myself, some

16· ·of the things that might be outside of my purview,

17· ·such as I've shared literally driving the van

18· ·because people don't necessarily rush to try and

19· ·take on some of that.

20· · · · Q.· ·And then just to clarify, does Covenant

21· ·Presbyterian ever support partisan or endorse

22· ·partisan campaigns or candidates or elections or is

23· ·it nonpartisan?

24· · · · A.· ·It's very much nonpartisan, it's not --

25· ·matter of fact, one of our neighbors, Howard

Page 85·1· ·Clement, on the Durham City Council forever, was

·2· ·Republican and lived in our community and the church

·3· ·was very supportive of Howard.· And Howard is very

·4· ·progressive in his views but he's also very much a

·5· ·registered Republican.· And again, then I shared

·6· ·that members of the church served on Thomas Stith

·7· ·Advisory Committee, not only when he ran for

·8· ·lieutenant governor but also when he ran for mayor.

·9· · · · Q.· ·And he was a Republican as well?

10· · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· ·And do you offer the church's services for

12· ·Get Out The Vote, voter registration to voters of

13· ·all parties or just --

14· · · · A.· ·All parties.· We primarily respond to

15· ·requests.· We don't ever go out and try to solicit

16· ·people to utilize the church, but when a call comes

17· ·in, you know, I don't think we've denied anyone

18· ·who's called.

19· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· I have no further questions.

20· · · · FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS

21· · · · · · · BY MR. McKNIGHT:

22· · · · Q.· ·Just one follow-up based upon Ms. Wu's

23· ·questions.

24· · · · · · ·Reverend Hawkins, do you know how many

25· ·days of early voting there were in Durham County



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Page 86·1· ·during the 2010 election?

·2· · · · A.· ·My understanding is that there were 17

·3· ·days of early voting.

·4· · · · Q.· ·Do you know how many Sundays there were of

·5· ·early voting during 2010?

·6· · · · A.· ·There were two.

·7· · · · Q.· ·There were two?

·8· · · · A.· ·Yeah.

·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how many were there in 2014?

10· · · · A.· ·I think there was --

11· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· Days or Sundays?

12· · · · Q.· ·Sundays of early voting in 2014.

13· · · · A.· ·In 2014?

14· · · · Q.· ·Yes.

15· · · · A.· ·There should have been one.

16· · · · Q.· ·And you made another comment too, I think

17· ·you said when you talk about smaller elections, it

18· ·just becomes an effort, I think were your words.

19· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.

20· · · · Q.· ·What did you mean by that?

21· · · · A.· ·Well, just trying to get people to

22· ·volunteer.· It's kind of like the military, no one

23· ·volunteers for anything, and so just trying to say

24· ·to people, this is important and I think part of it,

25· ·in the life of the church, we have a pretty active

Page 87·1· ·church, our women are very active, our men are very

·2· ·active, so people have already committed to their

·3· ·level of involvement, so we come up with new

·4· ·initiatives.· We're basically drawing from the same

·5· ·group of individuals, so it becomes much more

·6· ·difficult to say this is something, especially when

·7· ·it's outside of the direct life of the church,

·8· ·so.....

·9· · · · Q.· ·Is it also fair to say too though that it

10· ·is more difficult to recruit volunteers for Get Out

11· ·The Vote, voter registration, voter education

12· ·activities during midterm elections as opposed to

13· ·presidential elections like 2012?

14· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I would definitely -- well, I would

15· ·definitely say that the Obama election motivated a

16· ·lot of people to want to become involved who might

17· ·historically not have been involved in that process,

18· ·and again, I think people took a lot of pride in

19· ·wanting to see him elected, so it was a lot easier

20· ·during those presidential elections, during those

21· ·2008 and 2012.

22· · · · Q.· ·And so you think the Obama Campaign had a

23· ·lot to do with the enthusiasm level for Get Out The

24· ·Vote and voter registration, voter education

25· ·activities in your church in 2012?

Page 88·1· · · · A.· ·I think without question it definitely

·2· ·created a lot of excitement.

·3· · · · Q.· ·How about 2008?

·4· · · · A.· ·The initial one, yes, yeah, that was even

·5· ·more so.

·6· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· I don't have any further

·7· · · · questions for Reverend Hawkins.

·8· · · · · · ·MS. WU:· No questions.

·9· · · · · · ·MS. MILLER:· No questions from the United

10· · · · States.

11· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON THE DEPOSITION IS CONCLUDED AT

12· · · · 11:42 A.M.)

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14· · · ·I, Reverend Jimmie Hawkins, have read the foregoing

15· ·deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true

16· ·and correct, except as noted above.

17

18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _______________________________

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Reverend Jimmie Hawkins

19

20

21· ·Sworn to and subscribed before me

22· ·________________________________,Notary Public.

23· ·This________day of_____________________, 2015.

24· ·My Commission Expires:__________________________

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15· ·this 21st day of March, 2015.

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17

18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _____________________________

· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Lynn A. Ruggiro

19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Notary Public No. 20030830270

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JORGEN JENSEN May 18, 2015


1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1



NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE )

OF THE NAACP, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

v. ) Civil Action No.

) 1:13-CV-658

PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the Governor )

of North Carolina, et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH )

CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

v. ) 1:13-CV-660

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )

)

Defendants. )

)


)

Plaintiff, )

)

v. ) 1:13-CV-861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )

)

Defendants )

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JORGEN JENSEN

________________________________________________

3:56 P.M.

MONDAY, MAY 18, 2015

________________________________________________

DIENER LAW OFFICE, 302 HIGHWAY 55 W, SUITE 100

MOUNT OLIVE, NORTH CAROLINA 28365

By: Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR

2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2 For the Plaintiff League of Women Voters:3 American Civil Liberties Union of North Carolina

BY: Christopher Brook, Esquire4 Post Office Box 28004


[email protected]

For the Defendant North Carolina State Board of7 Elections:8 Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart, P.C.

BY: Michael D. McKnight, Esquire9 4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100


[email protected]

12 Videographer: Brent Troublefield13 --oOo--14

15

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25

3

1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION2 WITNESS: PAGE3 JORGEN JENSEN4 Examination by Mr. Brook 55 Examination by McKnight 236 Examination by Mr. Brook 427 Examination by Mr. McKnight 438

9 --oOo--10

11 INDEX OF EXHIBITS12 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE13 1 NC Public Voter Information 2314 2 North Carolina Voter Registration 37

Application15

3 North Carolina Voter Registration 3916 Application17 4 Provisional Voting Application 4018

--oOo--19

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4


2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at

3 3:56 p.m. Today's date is May 18th, 2015.

4 This is the videotaped deposition of

5 Jorgen Jensen, taken in the matter of the North

6 Carolina State Conference of the NAACP versus

7 Patrick Lloyd McCrory, in his official capacity

8 as the Governor of North Carolina, et al., case

9 number 1:13-CV-658 and all related matters.

10 Would counsel now please introduce

11 themselves.

12 MR. BROOK: Chris Brook from ACLU of

13 North Carolina for the League of Women Voter

14 plaintiffs.

15 MR. McKNIGHT: And Michael McKnight of

16 the Ogletree Deakins law firm in Raleigh, and I

17 represent the State Board of Elections,

18 defendants in this matter.

19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And would the court

20 reporter please swear in the witness.

21 JORGEN JENSEN,

22 having been first sworn by the court reporter and

23 Notary Public to tell the truth, the whole truth, and

24 nothing but the truth, testified as follows:

25 ///




2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. BROOK:

3 Q. Mr. Jensen, could you just state your name for

4 the record?

5 A. My name is Jorgen Jensen. And it's -- but in --

6 it's -- and Danish pronounced "yon." But you

7 can't do, so it's Jorgen here.

8 Q. So you have a Danish background?

9 A. I was born in Denmark.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. I'm a naturalized citizen.

12 Q. Have you been deposed before, Mr. Jensen?

13 A. Yeah. Once before.

14 Q. Okay. Just some reminders that I'll -- that I'll

15 provide you about being deposed and -- just to

16 give you some information.

17 If, at any point, you need to take a

18 break -- I don't think we'll be going too long.

19 Although, Mr. McKnight is a thorough fella.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. But we try to -- we'll try to move -- move

22 through this relatively quickly. But if you need

23 to take a break at any point, please let us know.

24 If there's ever a question that's asked

25 by me or Mr. McKnight that you don't

6

1 understand -- and I ask doozies every now and

2 again -- just please ask me or Mr. McKnight to

3 restate the question. We're happy to do so.

4 A. All right.

5 Q. You know, if you're like me, you answer a lot of

6 questions by nodding your head or shaking your

7 head or saying "uh-huh." If you could try to

8 avoid doing that and just saying "yes" or "no,"

9 since we're -- we have a court reporter here

10 today and want to be as clear as possible in

11 regards to your responses.

12 There might be objections that

13 Mr. McKnight will make to some of the questions

14 that I ask. It's possible that I will make

15 objections to some of the questions he asks.

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. Quite likely that we will instruct you to go

18 ahead and answer despite the objection. The

19 objections will be sorted out by the judge on

20 down the line. So that's just a legal matter and

21 we can go ahead and get to the substance of the

22 question that's been asked.

23 The only other thing I mention is I will

24 try very hard not to speak over you, because that

25 gets some crosstalk sometimes. That's hard to

7

1 figure out exactly what's going on for the court

2 reporter.

3 A. All right.

4 Q. And if you could do the same, I think that will

5 be easiest for -- for all involved.

6 Mr. Jensen, could you state your

7 address, please?

8 A. This current address?

9 Q. Yes, your current address.

10 A. Because I've just moved. So I've got it written

11 down.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. It is now -- it's 346 West N.C. 403 Highway,

14 Mount Olive, N.C., 28365-6557.

15 Q. Do you know what county that's in?

16 A. Whatever -- Duplin County.

17 Q. Okay. All right.

18 A. It's Duplin County here, I think.

19 Q. So there's a part of Mount Olive that's in Wayne

20 County --

21 A. I know --

22 Q. -- and a part that's in Duplin County, right?

23 A. Yeah. This is Duplin County.

24 Q. Okay. Your address is in Duplin County?

25 A. Yeah. Yeah.

8

1 Q. Okay. How --

2 A. And it has been. From the place we moved was --

3 was just a mile --

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. -- from where we live now. So...

6 Q. Do you remember your address before you moved to

7 the -- the 403 Highway?

8 A. Not offhand. Not offhand.

9 Q. Okay. But that address, the address that you had

10 before -- immediately presiding the 356 West

11 North Carolina Highway 403, was that also in

12 Duplin County?

13 A. Yep.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. Yeah. Now, this, when I took at my -- the

16 driver's license before. We lived in Wayne

17 County. And this was the address, which is on my

18 license now.

19 Q. Okay. Okay.

20 A. I can't remember that one either. I move around

21 a lot. So...

22 Q. So you've lived in -- in Wayne County and in

23 Duplin County?

24 A. Right. When I first voted, first went out to

25 vote, I was in Wayne County. And then we moved




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 to Duplin County. That's where the difficulty

2 came in. So...

3 Q. Okay. Are those the two counties that you've

4 lived in in North Carolina?

5 A. Yep.

6 Q. Haven't lived in any other counties?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When did you move to North Carolina?

9 A. About three years ago. What was it?

10 No. I think it was four. Maybe four

11 years ago.

12 Q. So 2010, 2011, somewhere in that --

13 A. Yeah, 2011, I think it was.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. I wasn't thinking about voting when I moved here,

16 so I didn't keep -- keep track.

17 Q. And where did you move from?

18 A. Utah.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. Utah.

21 Q. How long had you lived in Utah?

22 A. Since 1956.

23 Q. Okay. And you moved -- which county did you --

24 where did you move to? What city did you move

25 to, if you remember, when you moved to North

10

1 Carolina?

2 A. Oh -- oh, to North -- we moved to Wayne County.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. When we moved to North Carolina.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. That was -- yeah. We moved to Wayne County. And

7 then we moved to Duplin. And now another place

8 in Duplin County. So...

9 Q. So it sounds like you moved from -- and I want to

10 make sure I'm putting this narrative together

11 correctly, so correct me if I'm wrong.

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. You moved from Utah to Wayne County --

14 A. Right.

15 Q. -- sometime around 2011?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. When -- when did you move from Wayne County to

18 Duplin County?

19 A. Oh, it was about two years ago -- year and a

20 half, two years ago.

21 Q. So sometime in 2013?

22 A. Maybe before then. I can't remember that. I

23 told you, my memory is not good about that.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. But we lived in that Duplin County for about two

11

1 and a half -- two years, maybe. About two years,

2 I would say.

3 Q. Okay. What was -- so did you vote in Utah in --

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. -- 2008?

6 A. Yep. I did.

7 Q. Okay. Were you still living in Utah in 2010 --

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. -- for the mid-term elections?

10 A. I can't remember. I think I was. Yeah.

11 Q. Do you remember if you voted in the 2010 mid-term

12 elections?

13 A. I always voted, so I must have.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. Did you vote in the 2012 elections?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. Okay. So you voted here in North Carolina?

19 A. In Wayne County. Yeah.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. I went there to -- what's that county? Dudley?

22 And it was -- and I guess it was a library

23 building, you know. And I got accosted in the

24 parking lot by some people from conservative

25 something or other giving me...

12

1 And I went inside. They took one look

2 at me and signed me up, got registered

3 automatically, in about 15 minutes, and shot

4 right ahead of the pack.

5 Q. So when you say "Dudley," is -- is that the --

6 A. That's the town right down the road.

7 Q. And that's in Wayne County?

8 A. Must be. Otherwise, why would we vote there?

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. I can't figure out these counties. They're like

11 spider shapes on a map.

12 Q. Amoebas, spider shapes.

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. You should -- you should look at the election

15 districts.

16 A. It's incredible.

17 Q. So in 2012, did you vote during the early voting

18 period?

19 A. Yeah. I think so. Well, again, I don't know if

20 it was early voting or regular voting. I just

21 called up the -- I can't remember who I called.

22 It was somebody at the democratic party and asked

23 them where you go and vote. And they gave me an

24 address, so I went there.

25 Q. Did you register and vote on the same day?


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4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 A. Same day. Same day.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. So it -- it sounds like you use same-day

5 registration.

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Yeah. Like I said, I -- I got in the parking

9 lot, got inside. Fifteen minutes, I was back

10 outside, already voted, registered, everything.

11 It was all done. I had to swear all kinds of

12 stuff in front of some authority or something.

13 Q. So --

14 A. Sign all kinds of things.

15 Q. -- you said previously, when we were talking

16 about Utah --

17 A. Uh-huh.

18 Q. -- that you -- you vote frequently. And I don't

19 want to --

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. -- mischaracterize what you say. How frequently

22 do you -- did you vote in Utah and have you voted

23 here --

24 A. Pretty consistently.

25 Q. -- in North Carolina?

14

1 A. Pretty consistently for the last 20 years.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Before then, not so much. No.

4 Q. But pretty consistently?

5 A. Yeah. Both off-year elections as well as general

6 elections. So...

7 Q. So over the last 20 years, you would say you

8 typically participate both in the mid-term

9 elections as well as the presidential-year

10 elections?

11 A. Exactly.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. Exactly.

14 Q. Why -- why do you vote?

15 A. It's civic duty, isn't it? I thought that's what

16 you do. That's what you do.

17 Q. Did you try to go vote in 2014, last year?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. Yeah. Isn't this what this is about?

21 Q. It is. It is.

22 A. Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought.

23 Q. So I have to ask you some obtuse questions every

24 now and again.

25 A. All right. Okay.

15

1 Q. Why were you interested in -- in voting in 2014?

2 A. Because that's what you're supposed to do if

3 you're a good citizen of the United States. I

4 mean, that's -- if you don't, there's something

5 wrong with you.

6 Q. Can -- can you tell me a little bit about what

7 happened when you tried to go vote in 2014?

8 A. Oh. I showed up. I went to -- what's the --

9 what's the name of that city that -- where -- I

10 can't remember the names of these towns.

11 Well, I went to Duplin County seat and

12 went to the building. It's where they voted.

13 And I went in and they said I wasn't registered

14 and -- but I brought my identification and two

15 pieces of mail. I remember one was the electric

16 bill, and I can't remember what the other one

17 was. Just to prove where I lived. It had my

18 address, you know, on it. And they said I wasn't

19 registered, I was in the wrong place, I would

20 have to go back to where I voted the last time.

21 So then I went -- drove back to Dudley,

22 went to the place I voted last time. It was

23 closed -- it wasn't -- but I asked somebody,

24 "Where do you go to vote?" And they said,

25 "You've got to go to Mount Olive," and they gave

16

1 me an address. And I -- it was right down --

2 close to the police station in Mount Olive. I

3 can't remember the address.

4 But I went down there. And I went in.

5 And I told -- I told her my situation. And she

6 said, "Well, you're not supposed to vote here

7 either, but I can fill out a provisional ballot

8 for you and somebody will sort it out later."

9 So I did. I filled out the provisional

10 ballot and I submitted it and then I went home.

11 But I only lived four miles from there. I mean,

12 that was odd, because I was in the wrong district

13 but it's only four miles from my house where I

14 was living at the time.

15 Q. Was this during the early voting period --

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. -- this experience?

18 A. Yeah. It was about a week before the general

19 election.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Or the regular voting.

22 Q. And --

23 A. I think. I think that was about right.

24 Q. And this was after you had moved from Wayne to

25 Duplin County?




5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17

1 A. Yeah. Yeah.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. And we lived there for about a year or more. So

4 I knew I should be qualified to vote there.

5 Q. Okay. And from your narrative just then, it

6 sounds like you went to -- started by going to

7 the county seat of Duplin County; is that right?

8 A. Yeah. Yeah. It's -- I can't remember what it's

9 called.

10 Q. Is it Kenansville?

11 A. Kenansville. Kenansville. That's the name of

12 it.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Went to Kenansville. They wouldn't let me vote,

15 so I went to -- back to Wayne County. Of course,

16 that was wrong. So I didn't get to vote.

17 Q. Okay. How long did it take you to drive from

18 your home to Kenansville?

19 A. Oh, that's about half an hour. It's 50 miles an

20 hour. So how far is that? I guess it's -- you

21 know where you picked me up? How far would you

22 say that is?

23 Q. That's probably --

24 A. Twenty miles?

25 Q. No. I think it's a little bit less than that.

18

1 A. Yeah. It might be.

2 Anyway, it's -- it's quite a ways.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. Whereas, the Wayne -- Wayne County, where they

5 vote, is four miles from my house. It's easy --

6 Q. Right.

7 A. -- you know. I could have walked there.

8 Q. So you drive from your -- your home in Duplin

9 County to Kenansville. And that takes you about

10 a half hour; is that right?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Okay. And then you drive from Kenansville to

13 Dudley, where you --

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. -- vote -- in Wayne County where you had voted

16 previously?

17 A. Yeah. But that -- that was -- that was the wrong

18 place. So it was actually in Mount Olive.

19 Q. Okay. How long did it take you to get from

20 Kenansville to Dudley, do you remember?

21 A. Oh, it's about ten miles, I think, back again.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. I got the runaround pretty good.

24 Q. And then how far from Dudley to Mount Olive?

25 A. About ten miles.

19

1 Q. And then from Mount Olive to your -- back to your

2 house?

3 A. Oh, it's four miles.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. I know it's four miles because I checked the

6 odometer. Four miles.

7 Q. So all of these -- these trips, the trip from

8 your house to Kenansville to Dudley to Mount

9 Olive back to your house, how -- how long does

10 that take --

11 A. Oh, that took me about an hour and a half, all

12 this screwing around I did. Sorry, but that's --

13 I got the runaround pretty good.

14 Q. And what were you told about the provisional

15 ballot that you cast in -- in Wayne County and

16 about whether it would count?

17 A. They just said that some judge or some board

18 would evaluate my status -- you know, my

19 eligibility to vote and count it or discount it.

20 And I had to be -- I had to settle for that.

21 So...

22 Q. Do you know whether your vote that you cast --

23 the provisional ballot that you cast in Wayne

24 County counted?

25 A. They sent me a notice saying that my vote wasn't

20

1 counted.

2 Q. Okay. Going through all that effort and then not

3 having your vote count, how -- how did that make

4 you feel?

5 A. It made me feel stupid. Well, like I had wasted

6 an entire afternoon. Which is what I did, I

7 wasted an entire afternoon. But that's okay.

8 I'm retired, so I've got plenty of time to waste.

9 Q. You noted that you used same-day registration in

10 2012 to vote; is that right?

11 A. Yeah. Because I -- I have no idea how else you

12 would register. I mean, how do you register if

13 you wanted to register? I mean -- suppose I had

14 just moved to a different county, how would I go

15 about -- I mean, how do I even go about getting

16 registered? Do you go to the sheriff's office?

17 Do you go to -- I mean, who do you see? I don't

18 know.

19 Q. And --

20 A. I have no idea.

21 Q. -- are you aware that -- so you're aware that,

22 via same-day registration, you could register and

23 vote on the same day during early voting in North

24 Carolina --

25 A. Yeah.




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 Q. -- before the passage of House Bill 589?

2 A. It's the same way in Utah, it's same-day

3 registration. And you go in. If you're not

4 registered, you just prove --

5 What is this? It's a bug biting me.

6 Anyway. Yeah, you just go in, show them

7 your ID and proof of address and all of that, and

8 then you register. That's what I'm used to. But

9 here, it's different, I guess.

10 Q. And if you could have utilized the same same-day

11 registration in Duplin -- in Kenansville when you

12 first went there in 2014, would you have done

13 that?

14 A. That's what I expected to do. I expected to go

15 there -- that's why I brought the mail with me,

16 to prove that I was a resident, and I would be

17 allowed to vote, you know. That's usually how

18 it's done. I thought, you know. So...

19 MR. BROOK: Okay. Mr. Jensen and

20 Mr. McKnight, give me two seconds just to look at

21 my notes --

22 MR. McKNIGHT: Sure.

23 MR. BROOK: -- to make sure I'm not

24 missing anything.

25 (Pause.)

22

1 THE WITNESS: That's one thing that's

2 hard for me to get used to in North Carolina, is

3 all the bugs. Gees.

4 MR. BROOK: Listen, growing up in

5 Georgia, it was even worse.

6 THE WITNESS: Probably was.

7 I never even saw a real live flea until

8 I got here.

9 BY MR. BROOK:

10 Q. Was it easy for you to vote in 2012 when you

11 first voted in North Carolina?

12 A. Yeah. That was easy. That's because they took

13 one look at my complexion. I'm pretty sure that

14 was it. And decided I was the right flavor.

15 Q. And when you showed up in 2014 in Duplin County,

16 what did the election officials that you

17 interacted with in Duplin County and

18 Kenansville --

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. -- tell you?

21 A. She told me that I was in the wrong place -- I

22 wasn't registered and didn't have -- have me

23 on -- she looked at some registry and said I

24 wasn't registered. And she looked at my mail

25 that I brought, showing my residency, and said,

23

1 "You should go back to Wayne County and see if

2 you can't vote there." Which is what I did.

3 MR. BROOK: All right. Those are all

4 the questions that I have, Mr. Jensen.

5 THE WITNESS: Okay. Go ahead.

6 EXAMINATION

7 BY McKNIGHT:

8 Q. Yes, sir. Thank you for your time today, and

9 thank you for sharing your experience with us.

10 I want to show you a few documents here

11 to try to flesh out a little bit more about what

12 Mr. Brook has been saying here in asking you

13 questions about.

14 So the first document I want to show you

15 is one that I'm going to mark as Exhibit 1. And

16 we're going to call this Jensen Exhibit 1. We've

17 been marking these exhibits by the last name of

18 the person giving the testimony and -- and

19 starting with 1.

20 (Exhibit Number 1 is marked.)

21 Q. So -- so Mr. Jensen, what I'll tell you about

22 this Exhibit 1, it's probably not something that

23 you've necessarily seen before. But this is --

24 if you go on the State Board of Elections

25 website, you can pull up information -- public

24

1 information about registered voters in North

2 Carolina. And when -- when I typed your name in,

3 this -- this document here is -- is what I got.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. And so I want to ask you about that.

6 At the top here, it's got "Voter

7 Details." And under that, it has your name. It

8 says Jorgen -- or Jorgen -- or I'm not sure. Did

9 I say that right?

10 A. Yeah, Jorgen. You can prounoun -- yeah, Jorgen.

11 It -- in Danish, it's a completely different

12 alphabet.

13 Q. Well, I'm not going to even --

14 A. It's close.

15 Q. I'm not going to even try.

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. So Mr. Jensen, is -- is this your correct first

18 name? Is that -- is that right?

19 A. Yep.

20 Q. And I see the -- the middle name is I-B. Are

21 those initials --

22 A. Yeah. "Ebb" [phonetic], actually.

23 Q. That's -- so that's -- that's a full name?

24 A. That's a full name.





7 (Pages 25 to 28)

25

1 A. I don't want anybody calling me Ib.


3 A. Nor hillbilly, I'll tell you that.

4 Q. Well, we -- we won't -- we won't do that today, I

5 promise.

6 A. All right.

7 Q. So there's this address under here, and it's

8 listed as 132 -- I think it's Rones Chapel Road?

9 A. That's where we just moved from. This is where I

10 lived when I tried to vote. That's it.

11 Q. Okay. And that was in Mount Olive?

12 A. Yep.

13 Q. But that was in Duplin County --

14 A. Exactly.

15 Q. -- the Duplin part of Mount Olive?

16 A. Yep.

17 Q. All right. And I see under here, you're --

18 you're a registered democrat; is that right?

19 A. Yeah. Well, I'm not -- I'm not -- actually, I'm

20 a libertarian.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. But I've -- I have voted democratic before, but

23 I'm more of a libertarian than anything.

24 Q. Okay. Fair enough.

25 And I see your race is listed as white.

26

1 Is that correct?

2 A. Oh, yeah.


4 A. There's no other kind of people in Denmark

5 besides that.


7 A. Didn't used to be, anyway.

8 Q. All right. And I see you're also -- it's says

9 you're a DMV customer, which traditionally means

10 that you've -- you have a driver's license. Is

11 that right?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. Do you have a North Carolina driver's license?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Do you want to see it?

17 Q. I think we -- we saw it earlier when -- when we

18 came in. I think that you had mentioned that you

19 thought it was -- that was to prove that you were

20 who you say you were, right?

21 A. Exactly.

22 Q. And -- and do you think that's important for

23 purposes of voting?

24 A. I think so. Yeah. I think people ought to have

25 to prove their residency and their status as a

27

1 citizen. I would think. That would...

2 Q. And -- and you mentioned that you weren't

3 familiar with the voter registration process, but

4 when you went to vote, you knew to take --

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. -- your ID and -- and some other proof of

7 residency with you to vote, right?

8 A. Yeah. Make it as easy as possible, I thought.

9 Q. All right. And -- and in terms of this document

10 we're looking at here, Jensen Exhibit 1, it says

11 there's a polling place.

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. It's listed, Oak Wolfe Fire Department. Do you

14 see that?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. That's on Summerlin's Crossroads Road in Mount

17 Olive?

18 A. Yeah. That -- that's probably where -- that's

19 probably where I -- yeah.

20 Q. And do you know where that is?

21 A. Well, if it's -- I can find my way there, yeah.

22 But it's in -- where are you reading that? I'm

23 trying to find --

24 Q. Under the -- there -- there's a heading --

25 A. Oh. Polling place.

28

1 Q. -- it says, "Polling Place." It says, "Oak Wolfe

2 Fire Department." Do you see that?

3 A. Yeah, that's the place I went and put -- filled

4 out the provisional ballot.

5 Q. Well --

6 A. I'm pretty sure that's it.

7 Q. -- I believe Oak Wolfe Fire Department is in

8 Duplin County.

9 A. Is it?

10 Q. So it sounds like you filled out a provisional

11 ballot in -- in Wayne County. Is that right?

12 A. Yeah. Yeah, I -- yeah, it was Wayne County.

13 I -- I don't know. I can't find my way

14 around this state at all.

15 Q. Well --

16 A. I don't know where anything begins and ends, as

17 far as county lines.

18 Q. Well, do you ever remember driving past the Oak

19 Wolfe Fire Department?

20 A. I know where that is. Yeah. I can find my --

21 yeah, it's in -- I know where the fire department

22 is.

23 Q. How close to your house is that?

24 A. It's about four miles.

25 Q. Okay. And you've never voted at the Oak Wolfe


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8 (Pages 29 to 32)

29

1 Fire Department, though?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. No. I know where that is.

5 No, the place I voted was down -- was a

6 little further south than that. It wasn't a fire

7 department. No. I don't know what building it

8 was.

9 Q. And you mentioned earlier, I believe, that you --

10 you no longer live at this 132 Rones Chapel Road

11 address?

12 A. No. We moved just last month.

13 Q. Okay. And -- and have you made any effort to try

14 to change your voter registration last month?

15 A. No. No.

16 Q. And --

17 A. I shouldn't have to, though. It's still Duplin

18 County.

19 Q. Okay. Well -- well, if you were going to try to

20 change your voter registration, do you have any

21 idea what steps you would take to do that?

22 A. Nope. Not a clue.

23 Q. Well, would you consider going to the board of

24 elections office in -- in Kenansville to -- to

25 find out about that?

30

1 A. That's a long way for me to go. I -- that's too

2 much trouble.

3 Q. Do you have a telephone, Mr. Jensen?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. And do you have Internet access?

6 A. I don't know. I don't do Internet. I don't do

7 computer -- I don't do anything with a computer.

8 Q. Okay. Do you have a way that will look up a --

9 up the phone number for the --

10 A. No.

11 Q. -- Duplin County Board of Elections?

12 A. Not really.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. I guess I could call up the -- what do you call

15 it? Directory assistance? And ask them. That's

16 all the use I have for it.

17 Q. Well --

18 A. I'm not interested in pornography, so why would I

19 go on the Internet?

20 Q. Well, would you consider trying to call the

21 Duplin County Board of Elections to find out what

22 you needed to do about changing your address?

23 A. No. There's no -- that's too much trouble. I

24 mean, it really is. If I have to run to -- all

25 the way to Kenansville every time I want to do

31

1 something, that's -- that's a long way to go for

2 nothing.

3 Q. Well, if -- if you could change your address

4 using a mail-in voter registration form, is that

5 something you could do?

6 A. Okay. That would work.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. That would work.

9 Q. Have you considered visiting a -- a public

10 library or some other facility to see if you

11 could get a voter registration form that you

12 could use to change your address?

13 A. Is that how it's done? If that's how it's done,

14 I guess.

15 Q. Well, I can -- I can represent to you that --

16 that under the law, that's one way you could

17 change your voter registration, is that you

18 could -- you could visit to -- you could -- you

19 could visit a library or some other public

20 facility and get a voter registration form.

21 A. Well, I guess I would do that.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Because there's a library four miles from my

24 house.

25 Q. Okay.

32

1 A. I know where the library is.

2 Q. Okay. So you think you -- you could visit there

3 and see if they have any voter registration

4 forms?

5 A. Yeah. I would do that. But this is the first

6 I've heard of it. But that's how you do it. I

7 mean, it's not public knowledge. I mean, not

8 that I...

9 Q. Well, I think you said, too, that you had called

10 up the democratic party at -- at one point to --

11 to find out what you needed to do to vote. Is

12 that right?

13 A. Yeah. I could have called the republican party

14 and asked them the same question.

15 Q. Well, would you consider calling the democratic

16 or republican party again if you had questions

17 about how to -- how to change your address or --

18 and register?

19 A. I guess I could call them. But all I asked them

20 was, where do you go vote? You know, I asked

21 them how -- I remember the first time I asked

22 them where Dudley was. They told me it was in

23 Dudley. And I said, "Where the hell is that?"

24 And they said, "Well, you go down this

25 road, you turn here, and you go down that road."


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9 (Pages 33 to 36)

33

1 And I found it. But I had to ask a few people

2 along the highway where -- how do you get there.

3 So...

4 I made it.

5 It's not common knowledge. I mean...

6 Q. And I want -- I guess I want to talk a minute

7 about -- I think you said you -- you voted in

8 Utah for a number of years before you moved to

9 North Carolina. Is that right?

10 A. Oh, yeah.

11 Q. When -- when did you first register to vote in

12 Utah?

13 A. Oh, probably back in 1970 sometime.

14 Q. And in 1970, when you first registered to vote,

15 do you know if Utah would allow you to register

16 and vote the same day?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. You think they did?

19 A. Yeah. I remember it was Jimmy Carter and -- who

20 did he run against? Jimmy Carter ran against

21 somebody. I remember it was 1976, I think it

22 was. Yeah.

23 Q. That's when you think you first --

24 A. Presidential election 1976.

25 Q. Okay. And you don't remember filling out a voter

34

1 registration form and submitting it before the

2 election?

3 A. I don't remember that at all. But that's a long

4 time ago.

5 Q. Well, what is your -- what is your memory about

6 registering to vote in Utah?

7 A. I remember it was easy. I think at that time, if

8 you had a driver's license, you were

9 automatically -- or you just had to show it, if I

10 remember right. But I'm not sure. Maybe I'm

11 wrong about that.

12 Q. Do you think you might have registered at the --

13 at the DMV in Utah or --

14 A. Might -- might have done. Yeah.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I think I remember at that time all you had to

17 do -- if you had a driver's license, you were

18 registered to vote. I believe that was the way

19 it was.

20 Q. So if you had reg -- go ahead.

21 A. Oh. I have nothing more.

22 Q. So if you had registered to vote at the -- at the

23 DMV, then you wouldn't have registered to vote at

24 the same day; is that right?

25 A. No. It would -- you would -- no. It would be a

35

1 different time. You would be registered when you

2 got your driver's license. And whenever election

3 time would come, you would go vote. And -- I'm

4 sure that's the way it was. But I could be

5 wrong.

6 Q. And when you lived in Utah, did you ever move

7 around when you lived in Utah?

8 A. Yeah. A lot.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. A lot.

11 Q. And -- and when you moved, what did you do about

12 your voter registration?

13 A. I don't think I did anything. I don't...

14 Q. Do you remember ever changing it?

15 A. No. That's too long ago.

16 No, I can't remember what the process

17 was.

18 Q. Do you remember changing your driver's license

19 when you moved around different places in Utah?

20 A. No. Didn't have to. Driver's license was issued

21 by the state. It was good everywhere you were.

22 Q. Now, I think you said you -- you left Denmark in

23 1956, right?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Okay. So you --

36

1 A. Parents brought me over.

2 Q. Okay. All right. You weren't old enough to vote

3 in Denmark, were you?

4 A. Oh, no. When I came over, I was six.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I was six.

7 Q. I want to hand you another form here. I'm going

8 to mark this as Jensen Exhibit 2.

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. And maybe what I need to do is -- is get some

11 stickers on these things before we get any

12 further down the --

13 MR. McKNIGHT: Sorry, here, Chris.

14 Q. -- get any further down the line.

15 A. Yeah, this is what I filled out at -- when I

16 first voted, I think.

17 Q. Well, hang on just a second. I'm going -- I'm

18 going to get these things labeled for us here.

19 A. Yeah. It's my -- my signature. So it must be

20 the one. Someone else filled out the rest of

21 this, though.

22 Q. Okay. So I'm going to mark this one we just

23 looked at as Exhibit 1. Is that still accurate?

24 And if you'll hand me that one I just handed you

25 back, I'll mark that as Exhibit 2.


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10 (Pages 37 to 40)

37

1 A. Uh-huh.

2 (Deposition Exhibit 2 is marked.)

3 Q. And I believe that you were saying that this

4 Exhibit 2 here --

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. -- was the voter registration form you think you

7 filled out --

8 A. Over at Dudley.

9 Q. -- at the time -- that's when you first moved to

10 North Carolina; is that right?

11 A. Yeah. Well, it was about a year or so after we

12 moved. We lived there for quite a while, I

13 think. And I did bring -- at that time I did

14 bring -- what was it? A power and light bill,

15 you know. Mail, so that I could prove where I

16 lived, that I was a resident. Two forms, I

17 believe.

18 Q. Well, this address here that you registered to

19 vote at, I think it's -- it's dated October 24th,

20 2012; is that right?

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. It says -- I think it's 5370 Highway.

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. What highway is that?

25 A. Oh. It's on my driver's license. That's where

38

1 we lived when I filled out this.

2 What does that say? It's too small for

3 me to read.

4 Q. It appears to say 5379 N.C. Highway 111 South.

5 A. That's it.

6 Q. That sounds right?

7 A. That's where we lived.

8 MR. BROOK: Let me see it as well. Just

9 everybody get in on the fun.

10 THE WITNESS: Everybody get -- everybody

11 get...

12 MR. BROOK: Looks good.

13 THE WITNESS: It's...

14 Q. And that was in Seven Springs, North Carolina?

15 A. Yeah, Seven Springs.

16 Q. And when do you think you -- you left that

17 address?

18 A. Oh. I'll have to guess now.

19 I can't remember when. It was

20 sometime -- oh, about a year after this voting

21 took place, I guess. Maybe not that long.

22 I can't remember. It was -- might have

23 only been six months after this voting took

24 place. I remember, one day, I got out of bed and

25 my wife said, "We're moving."

39

1 I said, "Oh."

2 She got the boys, two teenage boys, took

3 all the stuff to another place, and I moved in.

4 And that was that.

5 Q. Now, does your wife vote?

6 A. Oh. No. She's not -- has no -- no -- no

7 interest in politics whatsoever at all. I think

8 I was only able to get her to vote once in all

9 the time we've been married.

10 Q. Was that in North Carolina or Utah?

11 A. That was in Utah. She did not like the

12 experience.

13 Q. I'm going to hand you another document that I'm

14 going to mark as Jensen Exhibit 3.

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 (Exhibit Number 3 is marked.)

17 Q. I'm going to ask you if you recognize this

18 document?

19 A. It has my signature.

20 Yep. This is -- it's my signature all

21 right. And it's 10th month, 28th day of 2014.

22 This is what I must have filled out.

23 Q. And do -- do you believe this is what you filled

24 out prior to -- to the November of 2014 election?

25 A. 2000 -- yeah. I think this is what I filled out

40

1 in Kenansville. Must have been. Yeah.

2 Q. I'm going to hand you another document. Hang on

3 to that one, then. And I'm going to mark this as

4 Exhibit 4.

5 (Deposition Exhibit 4 is marked.)

6 Q. See if you recognize it.

7 A. It's my signature again.

8 What does that say? (Peruses document.)

9 Q. Mr. Jensen, do you believe that you filled out

10 Exhibits 3 and 4 on the -- the same day?

11 A. Yeah. It says here I did. So I did.

12 Q. Well -- and at the top of Exhibit 4, it's -- it

13 says, "Provisional Voting Application." Do you

14 see that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And then to the left of that is in Wayne County.

17 It says, "Wayne County"?

18 A. Yeah. Yep.

19 Q. So do you believe you filled out this provisional

20 voting application in Wayne County?

21 A. Yeah. This is when I -- and this is the one --

22 what I filled out in Mount Olive.

23 Q. Okay. And -- and this -- this voter registration

24 form, do you believe that you filled that out

25 when you were in -- in Wayne County as well, or




11 (Pages 41 to 44)

41

1 somewhere else, this Exhibit 3?

2 A. Okay. Exhibit 3 --

3 MR. BROOK: I think I'm going to object

4 to form. I think he's answered that question in

5 a different way already.

6 A. Yeah, I did. This is...

7 Q. Yeah. Earlier, I think -- I think you said that

8 you thought you had filled that out in Duplin

9 County.

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. So I wanted to ask, do -- do you think you filled

12 out this voter registration form in Exhibit 3

13 and -- and Exhibit 4, you think you filled them

14 out in the same place or -- or different places?

15 A. Different places. I know it was different

16 places. This is --

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. -- I went to Kenansville. This was filled out at

19 Kenansville; this was filled out in Mount Olive.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. That's what I said before, is I went from

22 Kenansville to Mount Olive and filled out a

23 provisional ballot, and that was that.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. Yeah. That's -- that's the same story, just

42

1 different telling.

2 Q. Okay. Well, in looking at Exhibit 4 here,

3 there's some writing at the bottom.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. It says, "Moved and did not change voter

6 registration."

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. Is that in your writing or is that someone else's?

9 A. Someone else's. That's not my writing.

10 Q. Okay. And is that something that you told an

11 elections official in Wayne County?

12 A. Yeah. Yep. I told her, because that's the truth.

13 MR. McKNIGHT: Mr. Jensen, I don't want

14 to keep you any longer. I don't have any further

15 questions for you. I don't know if Mr. Brook

16 does or not, but that's all for me. I appreciate

17 your time.

18 THE WITNESS: Are we -- are we going to

19 get this thing changed at the legislature or are

20 we just...

21 MR. BROOK: I have two more questions

22 for you, just really quickly.

23 EXAMINATION

24 BY MR. BROOK:

25 Q. When you went to Kenansville in 2014 in --

43

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. -- Duplin County, were you expecting to be able

3 to -- to use same-day registration if you needed

4 to?

5 A. Yeah. I thought that's what -- I thought that

6 was still the law. But apparently it was

7 changed.

8 Q. Okay. You referenced both. I think in -- in

9 questions I had asked you but also questions

10 Mr. McKnight asked you, bringing some

11 documentation along with you in, I think, maybe

12 2012 and 2014?

13 A. Yeah. It's -- it's -- I mean, you have to be

14 able to prove that you're a resident. And that's

15 the only way I can think of to do that.

16 Q. What -- what documents did you bring?

17 A. A light bill and -- I think the other was a water

18 bill or -- or some kind of municipal thing. I --

19 with our address on it. It was delivered to the

20 house. So of course that works because the U.S.

21 mail doesn't get it wrong, you know.

22 MR. BROOK: Those are the two questions

23 I had.

24 EXAMINATION

25 BY MR. McKNIGHT:

44

1 Q. All right. And -- and when you went to vote, you

2 also brought your license with you as well,

3 right?

4 A. Exactly. And I showed them, yeah, three things.

5 License and -- yeah. I can prove where I was,

6 who I was, everything. Still didn't get to vote,

7 though.

8 I would have brought my citizenship

9 papers if that would have been a requirement, but

10 I didn't. So...

11 MR. Mc KNIGHT: No further questions

12 from me.


14 MR. BROOK: Nothing further from me

15 either.

16 THE WITNESS: Are we done?

17 MR. BROOK: I think so.

18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The concludes the

19 deposition. The time is 4:38 p.m.

20 [SIGNATURE WAIVED]


22

23

24

25




12 (Page 45)

45


) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF WAYNE )

3

4 I, JENNIFER C. CARROLL, Court Reporter and

5 Notary Public, the officer before whom the proceeding

6 was conducted, do hereby certify that the witness whose

7 testimony appears in the foregoing proceeding was duly

8 sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was

9 taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter

10 transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing

11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.

13 I do further certify that I am neither

14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the

15 parties to this action, and further, that I am not a

16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed

17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise

18 interested in the outcome of said action.

19 This the 1st day of June, 2015.

20

21

22

Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR

23 Notary Public #19923280118

24

25


CARLTON AUGUSTUS JORDAN, JR. June 2, 2015


1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1



NORTH CAROLINA STATE, ) VIDEOTAPED

CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, ) D-E-P-O-S-I-T-I-O-N

et al., ) OF

Plaintiffs, ) CARLTON AUGUSTUS JORDAN, JR.

)

vs. )

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in )

his official capacity as )

the Governor of North )

Carolina, et al., )

Defendants. ) Civil Action No. 1:13-CV-658

____________________________)

)


NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

vs. )

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA,)

et al., )


____________________________)

)


)

Plaintiff, )

vs. )

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA,)

et al., )


____________________________)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

JUNE 2, 2015, AT THE LAW OFFICE OF BEVIN WALL, NEWPORT, NORTH

CAROLINA.

2

1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:2

FOR THE PLAINTIFF - MR. CHRISTOPHER BROOK3 League of Women ACLU CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION

Voters of North OF NORTH CAROLINA 4 Carolina POST OFFICE BOX 28004 (27611)

727 WEST HARGETT STREET 5 RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27603-1601

919-834-34666 [email protected] FOR THE DEFENDANT - MR. MICHAEL D. MCKNIGHT

State of North OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK8 Carolina & Members & STEWART, P.C.

of the State Board POST OFFICE BOX 31608 (27622)9 of Elections 4208 SIX FORKS ROAD

RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 2760910 919-789-3159

[email protected]

ALSO PRESENT - MS. KATHLEEN PERKINS12

VIDEOGRAPHER - MR. JON LANDAU13 LANDAU LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHY14 COURT REPORTER - LINDA S. AMYETTE 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

3

1 STIPULATIONS: PRIOR TO THE GIVING OF ANY

2 TESTIMONY BY THE WITNESS, IT WAS EXPRESSLY STIPULATED AND

3 AGREED BETWEEN THE PARTIES TO THIS ACTION, THROUGH THEIR

4 RESPECTIVE COUNSEL, THAT:

5 1. BY NOTICE AND/OR CONSENT, THE VIDEOTAPED

6 DEPOSITION OF CARLTON AUGUSTUS JORDAN, JR., WAS TAKEN ON THE

7 2ND DAY OF JUNE 2015, BEGINNING AT 3:12 P.M., AT THE LAW

8 OFFICE OF BEVIN WALL, 7025 HIGHWAY 70, OCEAN WAY PLAZA, SUITE

9 F, NEWPORT, NORTH CAROLINA, BEFORE LINDA S. AMYETTE, A COURT

10 REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF LENOIR.

11 2. SAID DEPOSITION IS BEING TAKEN PURSUANT TO

12 THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE.

13 3. READING AND SIGNING OF THE TRANSCRIPT OF

14 TESTIMONY BY THE WITNESS IS WAIVED.

15 EXAMINATION OF WITNESS

16 BY MR. BROOK: PAGES 5 - 24

17 BY MR. MCKNIGHT: PAGES 24 - 38

18 BY MR. BROOK: PAGES 39 - 40

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

4

1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS

2

3 EXHIBIT [1] PAGE 12 NORTH CAROLINA VOTER HISTORY FOR

4 CARLTON AUGUSTUS JORDAN, JR.

5

6 EXHIBIT [2] PAGE 30 COPY OF OFFICIAL ELECTION MAIL

7 CARD

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25




2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 CARLTON AUGUSTUS JORDAN, JR., BEING BY ME FIRST

2 DULY AFFIRMED TO SPEAK THE TRUTH, DEPOSES AND SAYS:

3 ON EXAMINATION CONDUCTED BY MR. CHRISTOPHER

4 BROOK:

5 Q. My name, as I stated just a second ago is

6 Christopher Brook, I'm an attorney with the American Civil

7 Liberties Union of North Carolina, and I represent the League

8 of Women Voters plaintiff group along with other attorneys in

9 this case. Have you ever been deposed before, Mr. Jordan?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Let me tell you a little bit about how

14 depositions work. Obviously, we have a videographer here

15 today who is, you know, capturing this --

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. -- in, in video so that it's easier for the

18 Court to, to review your testimony.

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. We also have a court reporter here today who is

21 just going to be transcribing what I say, what Mr. McKnight

22 says and what you say --

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. -- in response to our questions. You know, if

25 you're like me oftentimes you respond to especially yes/no

6

1 questions by nodding your head or shaking your head or saying

2 uh-huh.

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. That can sometimes be hard to figure out whether

5 you're -- you're saying yes or no --

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. -- on a transcript. So if -- if you would try to

8 audibly answer every question, verbally answer every

9 question, and instead of saying uh-huh say yes or no,

10 something along those lines.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. Also -- and this is as much a reminder for me as

13 it is for you -- it's sometimes hard to understand what's

14 being said by the parties if two people are talking at the

15 same time, so I'm going to try very hard to let you finish

16 your answer to a question before I ask you the next question.

17 And at the same time if you could let me finish the question

18 before you start answering the question then that will just

19 make it easier on the court reporter --

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. -- to get down what we're saying.

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. At some point during the course of the testimony

24 Mr. McKnight may object to something that I ask you, I also

25 might object to something Mr. McKnight might ask you; if you

7

1 will, just let us sort of lay out and state the basis for our

2 objection. Usually, you'll be able to answer the question

3 despite the objection and we'll just say, "Mr. Jordan, you're

4 -- you're good to go ahead and answer the question." But if

5 you'll just let us get through the objection before you

6 answer that would be great.

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. All right. And if -- I guess the other thing,

9 the final thing I'll note is that sometimes I ask questions

10 that make sense to no one but me. So if that's the case do

11 not hesitate to ask me to rephrase --

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. -- my question or to ask it again; I'm happy to

14 do so. Could you state your name for the record, sir?

15 A. Okay. Carlton Jordan, Jr.

16 Q. All right. And where were you born, Mr. Jordan?

17 A. In Morehead City, North Carolina.

18 Q. All right. And Morehead City is, is here in

19 Carteret County.

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Okay. Approximately how long have you lived in

22 Carteret County?

23 A. Basically, most of my adult life.

24 Q. Okay. And how old are you now?

25 A. I'm 50.

8

1 Q. All right. Have you lived outside of Carteret

2 County at any point?

3 A. Yes, I have.

4 Q. Okay. Where else did you live?

5 A. I stayed in Onslow County and I stayed in Craven

6 County.

7 Q. All right. When did you -- when, when were you

8 in Onslow County?

9 A. Probably about 19 -- about '89 - '90.

10 Q. And, and how long were you in Onslow County; do

11 you recollect?

12 A. About a year and a half to two years.

13 Q. Okay. Did you update your -- when you moved did

14 you move from Carteret County to Onslow County when you moved

15 to Onslow County?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Okay. When you moved to Onslow County did you

18 update your address?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Who did you update your address with?

21 A. With the DMV.

22 Q. Okay. So did you go to the DMV in Onslow County?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Okay. When you went to the DMV in Onslow County

25 did they give you any voter registration information?




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 A. I believe they did.

2 Q. Okay. Do you recollect if you registered to vote

3 via the Onslow County DMV?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Okay. Okay. When did you -- you mentioned living

6 in Craven County for a period of time; when did you live in

7 Craven County?

8 A. I lived there in around -- on about June 29,

9 2013.

10 Q. Okay. So you moved to Craven County on June 29,

11 2013?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And how long did you -- did you live in

14 Craven County?

15 A. Until about -- roughly about -- well, December

16 1, 2014.

17 Q. Okay. And did you move to Craven County from

18 Carteret County?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Okay. And why -- why did you move to, to Craven

21 County?

22 A. I got married.

23 Q. Okay. So did your wife live in Craven County?

24 A. Yes, she did.

25 Q. Okay. So you moved to Craven County to be, to be

10

1 with her?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Okay. When you -- and, and did -- you left

4 Craven County on -- on or around December 1, 2014?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Okay. Where did you move to then?

7 A. We moved to 7550 Highway 70 East, Unit 2, New

8 Bern, North Carolina.

9 Q. Are -- are you still at that address today?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. Okay. What -- where are you -- where did you --

12 when did you leave that New Bern address; do you recollect?

13 A. It was probably -- on or about the 1st of

14 December.

15 Q. Of -- of what, what -- how long --

16 A. Until --

17 Q. -- how long were you in New Bern; do you

18 recollect?

19 A. Roughly about, 'til about that December 1.

20 Q. So you left Craven -- I thought you said earlier

21 that you left Craven County around December 1.

22 A. New Bern is in Craven County.

23 Q. Okay. Oh, I'm getting -- this is just, I'm just

24 displaying my ignorance, sorry.

25 A. Oh, good.

11

1 Q. So you were in New Bern, when did you leave New

2 Bern, how long were you in New Bern for?

3 A. I'd say it was probably a little over a year.

4 Q. Okay. And where did you move to from New Bern?

5 A. I went back to 250 Bogue Loop Rd.

6 Q. 250 which road?

7 A. Bogue Loop Road.

8 Q. Okay. Could you spell that for me?

9 A. Okay. B-o-g-u-e and then L-o-o-p and then R-d.

10 Q. Okay. And what city is that in?

11 A. That is Newport.

12 Q. Okay. And that is in Carteret County?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. All right. And is that where you're living now?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And from what you told me previously it sounded

17 like you moved back to that Newport address around -- when,

18 when did you move back to that Newport address; do you

19 recollect?

20 A. It was around December 1.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Of 2014.

23 Q. Okay. So -- just so I make sure I have the

24 progression right here.

25 A. Okay.

12

1 Q. You moved to Craven County on -- in that New

2 Bern address around June 29, 2013.

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. You lived there until around December 1, 2014.

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And then you moved to this 250 Bogue Loop Road

7 address in Newport around December 1, 2014.

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Okay. Do you recollect when you first registered

10 to vote?

11 A. Probably when I was 18.

12 Q. Okay. Okay. And how regularly did you vote; do,

13 do you vote?

14 A. Quite often, maybe 99 percent of the time.

15 Q. All right. I want to introduce what I'll mark as

16 Exhibit [1], and I'll hand it to you, Mr. Jordan.

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. And could I get you to just focus on -- if

19 you'll go down to the bottom of Page 1 it says Voter History;

20 do you see that, Mr. Jordan?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. And if you flip over to Page 2 it lists

23 elections that you've participated in; do you see that, Mr.

24 Jordan?

25 A. Okay, yes.




4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 Q. This -- my review of this indicates that you

2 voted in the 1998 general election, the 2000 general

3 election, the 2002 general election, the 2004 general

4 election, the 2006 general election, the 2008 primary, the

5 2008 general election, the 2010 general election and the 2012

6 general election; does that seem right to you?

7 A. Yes, it does.

8 Q. Okay. Do you recollect voting prior to 1998?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Okay. Do you recollect particular elections that

11 you voted in prior to 1998?

12 A. Anything from the senate to the presidential

13 elections.

14 Q. Okay. Did you vote in the presidential election

15 in 1996; do you recollect?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That would have been the Clinton-Dole race.

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Okay. Did you vote in the 1992 presidential

20 election which would have been Clinton-Bush and Perot?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Did you vote in the 1990 senate election which

23 would have been Jesse Helms versus Harvey Gantt?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Did you vote in the 1988 presidential election

14

1 which would have been Mike Dukakis and George Herbert Walker

2 Bush?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Okay. Did you vote in the 1984 election which

5 would have been Ronald Reagan versus Walter Mondale?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Okay. Why is it important for you to vote, Mr.

8 Jordan?

9 A. It's because not only that it's from a

10 constitutional right standpoint, but it gives me a chance to

11 voice my opinion, and that's very important in the elections

12 that come up; I do not take it for granted.

13 Q. We're going to talk about your experience in

14 attempting to vote in 2014; why were you interested in voting

15 in 2014 election?

16 A. Well, I was interested in the senate and some of

17 the county races.

18 Q. And when you say the senate race are you

19 referring to the United States Senate race between then

20 Senator Kay Hagan and then North Carolina House Speaker Thom

21 Tillis?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Okay. Can you tell me about what happened when

24 you went to vote for the 2014 election?

25 A. Okay. I did the early regis- -- voter

15

1 registration, the early voting --

2 Q. Okay, let me stop you there --

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. -- because I meant to ask you one other

5 question --

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. -- that I didn't ask you but I see -- and if

8 you'll look at the top of the form it says in the 2012

9 general election that you voted ABS-1 Stop, Absentee-1 Stop.

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. Do you recollect voting early during the 2 -- in

12 the early voting during the 2012 election?

13 A. I believe I did.

14 Q. Okay. Similarly, the 2008 election --

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. -- there's a similar ABS-1 --

17 A. Uh-huh.

18 Q. -- Absentee 1-Stop voting; do you recollect

19 voting early at, at that election as well?


21 Q. Okay. I'm sorry I interrupted you, you said you

22 went to early vote in 2014.

23 A. Yes -- yes, sir.

24 Q. Okay. Can you continue?

25 A. Okay. When I got there I -- because they asked

16

1 me, you know, to show my ID, so I showed my ID and I was told

2 that they couldn't find my name anywhere, not in Carteret

3 County or Craven County.

4 Q. What ID did you show them, Mr. Jordan?

5 A. My driver's license.

6 Q. Okay. And what address did your driver's license

7 show?

8 A. It showed 7550 Highway 70 East, Unit 2, New

9 Bern --

10 Q. The New Bern address.

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. So the Craven County address that we had talked

13 about previously.

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. What kind of ID was this that you showed them?

16 A. Driver's license.

17 Q. All right. When did you get a revised -- a

18 driver's license demonstrating that address?

19 A. I don't know the exact date that's on my license

20 but I did have it changed after I got -- at the time I was

21 married I did have it changed.

22 Q. Okay. So after you moved to Craven County you

23 had it changed?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Okay. Who did you -- where did you go to get it




5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17

1 changed?

2 A. The Department of Motor Vehicles.

3 Q. Okay. Can you tell me about what -- what you

4 recollect about interacting with DMV when you moved to Craven

5 County?

6 A. Basically, I told them that I had changed my

7 driver's license over and so I filled out the necessary

8 paperwork, and they took my picture and I paid a fee to have

9 my license switched over.

10 Q. Okay. You talked previously about when you were

11 in Onslow County updating your address at the DMV there when

12 you moved there, right?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. And you noted that you thought you had

15 registered to vote perhaps at the Onslow County DMV?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Did you have a conversation with the Craven

18 County DMV about wanting to be able to vote when you went to

19 change your address with them?


21 Q. Okay, do -- what do you remember about that

22 conversation?

23 A. I remember that basically she said, "You should

24 be able to vote down in Craven County."

25 Q. So you came away from the interaction you had

18

1 with the Craven County DMV thinking you could vote in Craven

2 County.

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Is that why you went to early vote in Craven

5 County?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And you expected to be able to vote in Craven

8 County without filling anything further out.

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Okay. So you go to vote at Craven County, do you

11 remember what polling place you went to vote in at Craven

12 County?

13 A. Not by name, I know the -- remember the area.

14 Q. What -- where was it generally?

15 A. It was generally near -- not too far from the

16 Shell Station on the other end of Havelock.

17 Q. Okay, okay. Was it a --

18 A. It was right there -- there used to be a

19 Winn-Dixie -- sorry --

20 Q. No, no, no, no, no, go ahead, you're good,

21 you're good.

22 A. Okay. There used to be a Winn-Dixie that used to

23 be in that area, it's a whole lot of offices. I'm thinking

24 just before you get to the post office coming into Havelock

25 on the right-hand side.

19

1 Q. Okay. And you went in there and you showed them

2 your driver's license.

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Okay. And what did they tell you?

5 A. They took it and checked it; that's when they

6 told me, they said they could not find my name anywhere.

7 Q. Okay. How did you respond to that?

8 A. I was shocked, you know, I was shocked, and I

9 said, "There's got to be some mistake."

10 Q. Gotcha. What happened next?

11 A. So they looked and looked. They went through the

12 -- what was in the computer, Carteret County, they couldn't

13 find anything.

14 Q. Okay. So they couldn't find you in Craven County

15 and they couldn't find you in Carteret County.

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. Okay. And did they tell you they looked in both

18 counties?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Uh-huh.

22 Q. What, what happens after they did that search?

23 A. So then they gave me a provisional.

24 Q. Okay. What did they tell you about the


20

1 A. Okay. I had to fill out the questionnaire, they

2 ask you where you're from, you know, and all of that, so I

3 filled that all out. And they helped me fill it out, the ones

4 that gave it to me, they helped me fill it out.

5 Q. Uh-huh.

6 A. Any questions. So once I got done they looked it

7 over and said everything was okay and they said, Now I could

8 go vote.

9 Q. And they gave you a provisional ballot?

10 A. Yes, sir. they did.

11 Q. Did you believe your vote was going to count

12 with, with a provisional ballot that you were completing?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Why did you think that?

15 A. Because after they told me, they said you --

16 they described it and they said, "Your vote should go

17 through." What they told and -- because I could not vote

18 unless I did that.

19 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. How long did that whole process

20 take at the Craven County voting center?

21 A. I'm not quite sure.

22 Q. An hour --

23 A. Probably about around an hour.

24 Q. Okay. How did you feel about that whole process?

25 A. Well, once it was done I felt, you know, I felt




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 good.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Good, like it --

4 Q. But you were surprised that you weren't on the

5 vote rolls originally when they told you that.

6 A. Yes, sir, I was surprised.

7 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the provisional ballot

8 that you cast during the early voting in 2014 counted in the

9 election?

10 A. I received a card from the -- from the Election

11 Board that my vote did not count.

12 Q. Okay. When did you receive that card?

13 A. I don't know when I got that card.

14 Q. Okay. But after the election at some point?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And do you recollect what it said?

17 A. It basically said that "Your vote was not

18 counted."

19 Q. How did that -- how did that make you feel?

20 A. I was surprised, and I was like, I was kind of,

21 "What do you mean it didn't count?"

22 Q. So tell me what you, you mean when you say,

23 "What do you mean it didn't count," or "what, what do you,

24 what do you mean by that?"

25 A. That's what my thought was, I said, "What do

22

1 you" -- because I was thinking to myself, talking out loud

2 what does it mean -- what did it mean they did not count it.

3 Q. Uh-huh.

4 A. And I went through the process, I filled out the

5 absent -- I did all, all of that and, yet, I was being told

6 that my vote did not count.

7 Q. Right. And so we went through your voter history

8 earlier, Mr. Jordan --

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. -- and it reflects that you voted in every

11 general election since at least 1998. So this was the first

12 time your vote hadn't counted since at least 1998; is that

13 right?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And it sounded like based on our discussions

16 about elections before 1998 you were a very frequent voter

17 before then, right?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Okay. Were you aware that North Carolina had

20 something called same-day registration during the early

21 voting process in past election cycles?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. Okay. Are you aware that during early voting you

24 could register and also change your address if, if need be

25 during early voting via same-day registration?

23

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Did you know same-day registration had

3 been eliminated due to the House Bill 589?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. Okay. When you showed up for the 2014 election

6 and they couldn't find you on the Carteret or Craven County

7 rolls, would you have utilized same-day registration to vote

8 if it had still been an option?

9 A. Yes, I would.

10 Q. Okay. Mr. Jordan, if you'll give me just one

11 moment to look at my notes and make sure that I've asked all

12 of the questions I want to ask, I would appreciate it --

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. -- and then I'll -- I'll turn it over to Mr. --

15 Mr. McKnight.

16 Mr. Landau: Would you like to go off the record

17 while you read --

18 Mr. Brook: It really will take --

19 Mr. Landau: Okay.

20 Mr. Brook: -- 90 seconds I think if, if that.

21 Mr. Landau: Sure.

22 -- Did you go with anybody to vote, Mr. Jordan, in

23 2014?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Who did you go to vote with?

24

1 A. That time I was with my wife.

2 Q. Okay. Did -- did she have any trouble with

3 voting?

4 A. I found out later that she did.

5 Q. What kind of trouble did she have?

6 A. Her vote did not count either.

7 Q. Do you know what happened in regards to that?

8 A. No, sir, I do not.

9 Q. Okay. Those are the questions I have for you

10 right now, Mr. Jordan. Mr. McKnight's --

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. -- almost certainly going to have some questions

13 to ask you as well about your experience.

14 A. Okay.

15 ON EXAMINATION CONDUCTED BY MR. MICHAEL D.

16 McKNIGHT:

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jordan, for sharing your

18 experience with us today and taking time to, to do that.

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. I just have a few questions about your

21 experience at the DMV and then --

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 Q. -- your experience voting, too. I believe you

24 said in the past when you moved to Onslow County, for

25 example, you changed your voter registration at DMV when you


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7 (Pages 25 to 28)

25

1 updated the address on your driver's license; is that right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. And after you did that did you receive a voter

4 registration card in the mail; do you remember?


6 Q. All right. And, and then after you moved to, to

7 Craven County you said you also went to update the address on

8 your driver's license; is that right?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And you said you moved to Craven County around

11 June of 2013; is that right?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And do you remember when you went to the DMV to

14 update your license?

15 A. It's on the license, I don't remember the exact

16 date -- but it wasn't too long.

17 Q. I was looking at some records and I saw one that

18 suggested it may have been in February of 2014; does that

19 ring a bell or sound right?

20 A. That probably sounds about right. That was

21 before -- 2014, in February of 2014, I do not believe that

22 that is correct.

23 Q. Do you have your license with you today?

24 A. Yes, sir, I do.

25 Q. Is it, is it handy?

26

1 A. Yeah, I can pull it, you know, it won't take me

2 long to do it.

3 Q. I hate to ask you to do that but that --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- might help answer that question for us --

6 A. Uh-huh.

7 Q. -- if you have it available.

8 A. Let's see.

9 Q. Well, and if -- you could, please, sir, you --

10 you don't have to hand this to me.

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. I appreciate you showing it to me.

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. But I'm going to ask you some questions about it

15 now --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- now that you have it.

18 A. Okay, yes, sir, I have it.

19 Q. On this, on this license is there an expiration

20 date on the license?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. What's that expiration date?

23 A. 11/21/2017.

24 Q. Okay. And what is, what is your date of birth,

25 Mr. Jordan?

27

1 A. /64.

2 Q. Okay. So it expires on your birthday in 2017; is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Does it have an issue date on it anywhere?

6 A. Yes, it does.

7 Q. And what's that date?

8 A. Okay. It -- February 27, 2014.

9 Q. And does that sound about the time that you went

10 to go get that license with the new address on it?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Okay. And what's the name --

13 A. Uh-huh.

14 Q. -- that appears on, on your name, what's the

15 complete name that appears on it?

16 A. Okay. Carlton Augustus Jordan, Jr.

17 Q. And could you also read the address that appears

18 on that license?

19 A. Okay. It's 7550 US Highway 70 East, Lot 2, New

20 Bern, North Carolina, 28560.

21 Q. And I think that's exactly what you said earlier

22 as well.

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. So I just wanted to check since you, you had

25 that available.

28

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. Thank you for getting that out.

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. I believe you said now that you currently live

5 on Bogue Loop Road in Newport; is that right?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And have you made any effort to update your

8 driver's license to that new address?

9 A. I will today once we get done.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. And fair enough. When you do that --

13 A. Uh-huh.

14 Q. -- do you intend to also update your voter

15 registration at the DMV?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. And do you have any concerns about doing that?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. All right. And I think you said you got that

20 license, you thought that February 14 was the time that you

21 went to update that license to get your new address on it; is

22 that right?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And after you did that you also said you thought

25 you registered to vote or changed the address on your voter

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8 (Pages 29 to 32)

29

1 registration; is that right?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And do you remember whether you received a voter

4 registration card in the mail after February 2014 when you

5 updated the address on your license and thought that you had

6 registered to vote?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. Okay. And -- and since you had received a voter

9 registration card previously is that something that made you

10 wonder if there was a problem, or is it something that you

11 maybe just didn't even think about?

12 A. I did not think it would be a problem.

13 Q. And then I think you said you thought you left

14 the Highway 70 address in New Bern around December of 2014;

15 is that right?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Okay. And hold on just for a second here. I

18 believe you said you filled out a provisional ballot when you

19 went to vote in, in early voting during 2014; is that right?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And after you filled out that provisional ballot

22 did you understand that provisional ballot was also a voter

23 registration form?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Okay. And then after you filled out that

30

1 provisional ballot that would have been in October of 2014;

2 is that right?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Do you remember whether you received a voter

5 registration card in the mail or not?

6 A. No, I don't believe I did receive one.

7 Q. You -- you believe you --

8 A. I don't believe.

9 Q. Okay. And so I want to show you a document that

10 I'm going to mark as Exhibit [2].

11 Mr. McKnight: I'm going to hand a copy to

12 counsel here.

13 Mr. Brook: Thank you.

14 -- And it's hard to see the whole address on here.

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. But I'll represent to you, sir -- and I assume

17 that this is not something that you've seen before -- have

18 you ever seen anything like this before?

19 A. I have.

20 Q. Okay. And in what -- what context have you seen

21 this?

22 A. I seen it when I moved and all my mail was being

23 forwarded to the Havelock Post Office.

24 Q. Okay. So -- and, and are you specifically

25 referring to the -- it looks like there's a -- some language

31

1 at the bottom of this document that says Return to Sender,

2 and it says, Jordan Jr., General Delivery, in Havelock; do

3 you see that?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And so, are you saying that after you moved from

6 the Highway 70 address in New Bern back to the Bogue Loop

7 Road address in Newport you had your mail forwarded to

8 Havelock?

9 A. Yes, sir, at the time.

10 Q. Okay. And, and this document appears to have

11 been mailed November 21, 2014, according to -- there's a

12 postmark at the top; do you see that?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And then there's another mark here that's

15 stamped November 26, 2014, and I honestly don't know what

16 that means. But do you think this is around the time that you

17 moved to Carteret County? And I guess that that's a -- that's

18 a bad question that, that I asked you there. That's one of

19 those questions that Mr. Brook was talking about that only

20 makes sense to me. So let me --

21 A. Uh-huh.

22 Q. -- let me, let me ask you a better question. I

23 think you said earlier you thought you had moved around

24 December of 2014 from Craven County back to Carteret County;

25 is that right?

32

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And do you think it's possible that you may have

3 moved toward the end of November rather than in December

4 based upon the fact that this piece of mail was returned in

5 late November of 2014?

6 A. No, I do not.

7 Q. Okay. And, and would you remember -- does this,

8 does this document in any way refresh your recollection about

9 when you think you moved from Craven County to Carteret

10 County?

11 A. No, it would not because the reason is the end

12 of November was when -- the 30th of November was when I

13 moved.

14 Q. So you don't think you would have had your mail

15 forwarded before that date?

16 A. It might be a possibility because we had to move

17 things out -- out of wherever we was staying at the time.

18 Q. I see. And -- and when you forwarded your mail

19 how did you go about doing that?

20 A. Went to the post office and let them know that

21 we would be doing general delivery is what they called it.

22 Q. All right. And you had to fill out some kind of

23 form?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Okay. I want you to think about your experience


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33

1 when you went to the DMV after you moved to Craven County,

2 backing up to February of 2014 when you did that. What was

3 your experience like with DMV; was the, was the examiner

4 helpful to you?

5 A. I'd say yes, yes -- yes; I believe it was a she

6 but, yes, they was.


8 A. Uh-huh.

9 Q. So you didn't have any particular problems that

10 day?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 Q. And do you think that you signed a voter

13 registration form after you filled it out?

14 A. No, I wouldn't say I signed a voter registration

15 form, just the paperwork that was required to change my

16 driver's license.

17 Q. And I think you said you also, though, thought

18 you had registered to vote at that time, and so I was

19 wondering what facts or, or what happened that made you think

20 you had registered to vote when you changed the address on

21 your license.

22 A. Because of the previous experiences.

23 Q. And by that are you referring to the move you

24 made to Onslow County in the 90's?

25 A. Yes, sir.

34

1 Q. Okay. But did anybody at DMV tell you that you

2 had been -- that your address to vote had changed?

3 Mr. Brook: Objection to form. Which -- which

4 DMV? We've been talking about a couple of DMV's.

5 Mr. McKnight: Yeah, well, fair -- fair enough,

6 that would, that would be confusing.

7 -- I think you testified earlier that you walked

8 away from the DMV that day thinking that you had changed your

9 voter registration; is that right? And, and the DMV I'm

10 referring to when I say that is the DMV you went to in

11 February of 2014 after you had moved to the New Bern address.

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Okay. And you -- so you -- it was your

14 impression that you had, you had changed your voter

15 registration to the 7550 Highway 70 address; is that

16 right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And what specifically made you have that

19 impression?

20 A. Well, one thing was the -- like I said, I filled

21 out the forms and while I was there I paid taxes in that

22 county. And based on past experiences in moving to another

23 county -- county they automatically -- so -- because once

24 you've got your driver's license and you were registered you

25 were registered to vote; that was my understanding.

35

1 Q. And so my question would be do you remember any

2 specific discussion you had with the DMV examiner you worked

3 with in February of 2014 about registering to vote?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. So no one at the DMV told you that your

6 registration would be updated and you would be good to vote

7 in the 2014 election?

8 A. No, they didn't.

9 Q. And so your impression that you had changed the

10 registration was solely based upon your experience, though,

11 in the 1990's when you moved to Onslow County?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. Okay. Mr. Jordan, do you believe that, that your

14 experience is something that could happen to anybody or is it

15 -- does it -- is it always something that could

16 happen to certain groups of people, or certain types of

17 people?

18 A. Well, I believe it could happen to anybody, I

19 just wasn't expecting it to happen to me.

20 Q. Okay. And do you think that your experience had

21 anything to do with your race?

22 A. I cannot answer that with a yes or a no.

23 Q. Well, do you have any reason to think that it

24 does?

25 A. It's a possibility.

36

1 Q. All right. And why do you say that?

2 A. Because I've never had any problems before until

3 now.

4 Q. And is there any other specific reason why you

5 think that?

6 A. No, sir. Just based on past voting experience,

7 even when I voted early it's always counted, and I had no

8 reason to think otherwise.

9 Q. I'm just checking my notes right now to make

10 sure I don't have any other questions for you. Well, I, I do

11 have one more.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. Do you recall how it is you became a witness in

14 this lawsuit?

15 A. I believe I was contacted.

16 Q. And who were you contacted by?

17 A. I don't recall the person's name exactly but I,

18 you know, off my head I can't recall his name. But they had

19 made mention about some of the voters not voting -- it was

20 not counted, and I was one of the ones that was down that my

21 vote did not count. So they had, you see, information, so I

22 was contacted by them. I believe it was from the ACLU, I

23 believe that's how you say it.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. Or pronounce it.


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1 Q. And you don't remember specifically who you

2 talked to there?

3 A. I think his name was Chris or --

4 Q. Do you think it was Mr. Brook who we've been

5 here talking to today?

6 A. I'm not quite sure off, offhand right, right

7 now. It would be -- it was -- it was a representative from

8 the -- it might have been him, I just can't recall the

9 person's name offhand.

10 Q. That's completely fine and completely

11 understandable. Do you remember how many times you talked to

12 that person?

13 A. At least two to three times.

14 Q. And have you talked to any other person about

15 the lawsuit or about testifying today other than that, that

16 person that you talked to two or three times?

17 A. No, I haven't. And the only person that I will

18 make mention of that was not so much in the lawsuit was a

19 person that's the head of the NAACP in, I think, the Newport

20 Chapter -- Wayne Fluellen.

21 Q. And what did you speak with Mr. Fluellen about?

22 A. Just basically told him what happened, that I

23 had received a card that my vote did not count. And that, you

24 know, I had been contacted and just let him know that -- that

25 I will be, you know, basically just said what I told them --

38

1 told him what I told -- what, what happened and just letting

2 him know. I talked to my pastor about it and just let him

3 know also.

4 Q. And are you a member of the NAACP?

5 A. Not right now.

6 Q. Okay. And have you been in the past?

7 A. Yes, I've been in the past.

8 Q. Okay. Okay. And when you spoke to Mr. Brook or

9 whoever from the NAACP do you remember --

10 A. It was from the, it was from the AC --

11 Q. I'm sorry, the AC -- you're, you're exactly

12 right. Thank you --

13 A. Yes -- yes, sir.

14 Q. -- thank you for catching me.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Thank you for catching that.

17 A. Uh-huh.

18 Q. I'm sorry, from the -- whenever you spoke with

19 Mr. Brook or whoever from the ACLU do you remember anything

20 specifically that you talked about?

21 A. No, just basically asked me what had happened

22 when I voted.

23 Mr. McKnight: I don't think I have any further

24 questions for you today, Mr. Jordan.

25 Mr. Brook: Mr. Jordan, just very briefly, I

39

1 wanted to ask you just a couple of more questions.

2 Mr. Jordan: Okay.

3 ON EXAMINATION CONDUCTED BY MR. CHRISTOPHER

4 BROOK:

5 Q. So when you went to the Craven County DMV in

6 February of 2014 can, can you tell me all of the things that

7 you, you did with them, all of the information you provided

8 to them?

9 A. Changed the address.

10 Q. So you completed some forms for a change of

11 address.

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. They gave me -- because they took my picture --

15 Q. Uh-huh.

16 A. -- they had done that. And they issued my new

17 driver's license, and I paid a fee.

18 Q. Okay. And you referenced some taxes previously?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Are those the fees you're talking about or are

21 those separate taxes?

22 A. No, they're property taxes that I paid.

23 Q. Okay. All right. So you took care of that.

24 A. Yes, sir, I did. My vehicle registration, all of

25 that.

40

1 Q. So -- and, and you had also had this prior

2 experience with the Onslow County DMV that you talked about

3 earlier in your testimony, correct?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. So it was based on filling out the change of

6 address, paying property taxes and fees in Craven County and

7 then the prior experience in Onslow County; that's what led

8 you to believe that you were capable of voting in Craven

9 County; is that right?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Is there anything else that I'm missing from

12 your Craven County DMV experience that led you to believe

13 that you were registered to vote there -- or could vote

14 there?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Mr. Brook: Okay. That's all.

17 Mr. McKnight: No further questions from me.

18 Thank you so much for your time today, Mr. Jordan.

19 Mr. Brook: Thank you for your time.

20 Mr. Jordan: Uh-huh, thank you.

21

22 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

23

24 PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED AT 4:01 P.M.

25




11 (Page 41)

41


2 ) C-E-R-T-I-F-I-C-A-T-I-O-N

3 COUNTY OF LENOIR )

4

5 I, LINDA S. AMYETTE, A COURT REPORTER AND NOTARY

6 PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE AFORESAID COUNTY AND STATE, DO HEREBY

7 CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING PAGES ARE AN ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT

8 OF THE DEPOSITION OF CARLTON AUGUSTUS JORDAN, JR., WHICH WAS

9 TAKEN BY ME BY STENOMASK, AND TRANSCRIBED BY ME.

10 I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE DEPONENT WAS FIRST DULY

11 AFFIRMED BY ME, AND THAT THE DEPONENT AND PARTIES DO WAIVE

12 THE SIGNING OF THE DEPOSITION BY THE DEPONENT.

13 I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT I AM NOT FINANCIALLY

14 INTERESTED IN THE OUTCOME OF THIS ACTION, A RELATIVE,

15 EMPLOYEE, ATTORNEY OR COUNSEL OF ANY OF THE PARTIES, NOR A

16 RELATIVE OR EMPLOYEE OF SUCH ATTORNEY OR COUNSEL.

17 THIS THE 11TH DAY OF JUNE, 2015.

18 NOTARY PUBLIC #19971120102.

19

20 S/S LINDA S. AMYETTE

21 COURT REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC

22 CAROLINA COURT REPORTERS, INC.

23 105 OAKMONT PROFESSIONAL PLAZA

24 GREENVILLE, NC 27858

25


General Information

Court United States District Court for the Middle District of NorthCarolina; United States District Court for the Middle District ofNorth Carolina

Federal Nature of Suit Civil Rights - Voting[441]

Docket Number 1:13-cv-00660


