mujib in US

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DEPARTMENT OF STATEMemorandum of Conversation

DATE: September 30, 1974TIME: 10:30 a.m.

SUBJECT: Secretary Kissinger Calls on Bangladesh Prime Minister,Sheikh Mujibur Rahman

Bangladesh:Prime Minister Sheikh Mujibur RahmanForeign Minister Kamal HossainAmbassador Hossain Ali

U.S.:The SecretaryAlfred L. Atherton, Jr., Assistant Secretary, NEAMr. Robert Oakley, NSCMr. Peter D. Constable, NEA/PAB (Notetaker)

DISTRIBUTION: S; S/S; WH (General Scowcroft)

The Secretary called on the Bangladesh Prime Minister, Sheikh Mujibur

Rahman at the latter's suite in the Waldorf Towers. Photographers tookpictures while the Secretary and Prime Minister greeted each other.

THE SECRETARY: I am very pleased to meet you and to welcome you tothe United States. I am very much looking forward to my visit next month toDacca.

THE PRIME MINISTER: I am also looking forward to your visit. Pleaseaccept my regrets for the unfortunate illness of Mrs. Ford.

THE SECRETARY: It is a great pleasure to see you here. In 1970 whenYahya Khan was here for the UN, he explained to me why the elections inPakistan would be well manipulated. He said there were 20 parties in EastPakistan. There would be no majority party and Yahya would thereforehave an excellent opportunity to maneuver to control the situation. Then ofcourse you achieved your spectacular majority, with 167 out of 169 seats inEast Pakistan. Ever since then I have never believed political predictions,



unless of course you make them.

PRIME MINISTER: I gave my prediction before the election at a pressconference in Dacca. I was asked if I would get 90% of the votes. I said Iwould get 97%. Of course I have contested so many elections that I knewbetter than Yahya. I understood his ideas and plans to maneuver --

THE SECRETARY: There would have been no elections if he had knownhow it would turn out. The last time I saw Yahya was on the way toChina--the trip which he arranged for me. He gave a dinner for me and saidat the table, "People call me a dictator." He asked everyone: "Am I adictator?" Everyone said "No." Then he asked me, and I said: "I do notknow, but for a dictator, you run a lousy election."

PRIME MINISTER: Would you like something to drink?

THE SECRETARY: I would like some tea.

PRIME MINISTER: I am glad. I produce tea also. [Tea and coffee wereserved.]

THE SECRETARY: As you know we are committed to the well-being ofBangladesh. Within our capacity we will do all we can to help you. Withoutmeddling in Bangladesh's internal affairs, I want you to know that webelieve you are the best guarantee for stability in your country, and wewant to do what we can to help you.

PRIME MINISTER: Thank you. That is very kind of you. After I got out of jail, we faced such big problems. Then you gave us massive help and weavoided famine.

THE SECRETARY: We will do what we can. We have committed 150,000tons of foodgrains to Bangladesh in the first quarter of this fiscal year. We

are trying to get approval for another 100,000 tons in this quarter, by thetime you meet the President. I know that doesn't meet your total needs, butwe have had a disappointing corn crop and that has put a strain on ourwheat supplies.

PRIME MINISTER: Our problem is to try to recover and to be self-sufficientin food. We have made some progress. Our deficit of 3 million tons of rice



is down to 2 million tons. We had no government when I got out of jail. Wehad nothing.

THE SECRETARY: Everything came from West Pakistan.

PRIME MINISTER: At the end of the struggle we had nothing. No money,no resources.

THE SECRETARY: When did you return? In January 1972?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. When I returned everyone was armed and we hadproblems with that. Now we have a government. I have followed a policy of"forgive and forget" after coming out of jail.

THE SECRETARY: We very much appreciated the trilateralagreements you have worked out with India and Pakistan. You havebeen very statesmanlike.

PRIME MINISTER: This caused me some unpopularity because of themassacres that took place among intellectuals. I could give younames that you would recognize.

THE SECRETARY: The Bengalees are a rebellious lot. There were anumber of Bengalees at Harvard when your Foreign Minister was a studentof mine there.

FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes there were a number of Bengalees includingMr. Murshed.

THE SECRETARY: Is he all right?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes.

PRIME MINISTER: The Pakistani General, Farman Ali Khan, wrote onhis scratch pad, and we found it, "The green land of East Pakistanmust be painted red." I told Bhutto about this when he came to Dacca.I showed it to him. I said to him, "Do something from your side."There are 67,000 non-Bengalee families living in Bangladesh whohave opted for Pakistan. They don't want them back. We don't wantthem. They are in camps. We can't feed them. We have no assets. I've



done my duty. I'm the victim of genocide. Why can't the Pakistanisshow generosity?

THE SECRETARY: We strongly favor normalization of relations betweenPakistan and Bangladesh. Our aim in the area will be to use any influencewe have to promote normalization. I have the impression that it's a questionof domestic politics in Pakistan. Is there anything concrete you want me todo?

PRIME MINISTER: I have taken the liabilities. Why can't I have theassets? We received no gold, no planes, no ships. I have 75 millionpeople. I have returned the prisoners of war to Pakistan. I could haveheld back 4,000 prisoners for bargaining. But I did not want to do that.I want good relations in South Asia. Bangladesh is a small country.

THE SECRETARY: With 75 million people Bangladesh is not a smallcountry.

PRIME MINISTER: We are small in territory. In the first two or three monthsof independence we rebuilt the roads and the bridges, we openedgovernment institutions, we approved a constitution. Our senior civilservants were detained for two years in Pakistan. I have resources inBangladesh --fertile land, many people, gas, coal and livestock. And wehope to find oil.

THE SECRETARY: Is there coal in Bangladesh? Have you found oil?

PRIME MINISTER: We have signed agreements with an Americancompany for oil exploration and received bonus payments for theagreements.

THE SECRETARY When you have the oil, perhaps we will borrow fromyou.

PRIME MINISTER: You won't need to borrow. We will repay you for all youhave done for us. We need a Marshall Plan in Bangladesh. We needforeign investment in fertilizer plants and in petrochemicals. We havenatural gas and we can sell it. Flood control is a very serious problem.During the Pakistan days there was a mission to survey flood control in1955 and 1956. During the British days they had dredges to clear out the



rivers so that they could carry goods to Calcutta. After World War II whenthe British withdrew, there was no more dredging. The Government ofPakistan buried the survey report and went ahead with the Indus BasinProject in West Pakistan. They did nothing in Bangladesh, and now we aresuffering the consequences. We had no way to save our cattle, ourfoodgrains, poultry and vegetables from the flood. We can find a solutionbetween us. You organized the Marshall Plan for Germany's recovery. Nowyou can start a Kissinger Plan for Bangladesh.

THE SECRETARY: If I can get my name on a plan, I will do just aboutanything.

PRIME MINISTER: You have had such good success in Vietnam and theMiddle East. You can have success in Bangladesh. There are famine

conditions in my country.

THE SECRETARY: The domestic situation in this country is much lessfavorable than it was at the time of the Marshall Plan. In fact, the domesticsituation is unfavorable. Candidly, I must say that that sort of program is notlikely. On the other hand we are joining the Bangladesh Consortium. Wefavor the most rapid development possible for your country. In 1971 ourdispute with India was related to our China policy. We supported theindependence of Bangladesh by peaceful methods. We will do themaximum that we can, but you should not have exalted expectations. Wewill be extremely active in the Consortium. Your problems will receivespecial attention. The fact that I am going to Dacca means that I will givethem special attention.

FOREIGN MINISTER: Our problem is that we need a margin of time....

THE SECRETARY: It is the curse of bureaucracies that they only doenough to avoid crises but not enough to solve the underlying problems. Ipersonally favor taking big steps. We will have to look again at your

problems. I will meet with Mr. McNamara and we will see what we can do.Will you meet with him?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes, in Washington. He has been kind enough to seeme.

FOREIGN MINISTER: We need 3 or 4 years' margin to work on long term



development.

THE SECRETARY: Can you become self-sufficient?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes, in 3 or 4 years.

THE SECRETARY: We are looking for another 100,000 tons in this currentquarter.

MR. ATHERTON: And without prejudice for the rest of the year. We will beconsidering what additional foodgrain we can provide.

FOREIGN MINISTER: We need vegetable oil, fertilizer and project aid forthe development of all our resources to increase exports so that we can get

out of the current situation. We have no political problems. We are stillwinning by-elections in spite of our 40% inflation rate.

THE SECRETARY: Take about 15 minutes in your meeting with thePresident to advise him on how you do this.

PRIME MINISTER: I set up 4,300 Union Councils in Bangladesh. I have toprovide a free kitchen in every Union Council.

THE SECRETARY: Do you travel a lot?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I try to mobilize the people to be self-sufficient, sothat the country can be self-sufficient.

THE SECRETARY: How are your relations with India?

PRIME MINISTER: Very good. We have a foreign policy that is neutral,non-aligned and independent. We have good relations with India, USA,USSR and Burma. We are very anxious for good relations with China.

THE SECRETARY: We are improving our relations with India.

PRIME MINISTER: We welcome that. We have a Friendship Treaty withIndia and a Commission on River Control. I want to convey to you myassurances of our good relations. When I came out of jail, there wasanti-US sentiment in Bangladesh. Now all my people are extremely friendly



to the US.

THE SECRETARY: You showed great wisdom when you came out of jail.There must have been a great temptation to demagoguery and to dealharshly with Pakistan and the US. We have always had great sympathy forthe Bengalees. It is a natural friendship on our side.

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. Your long-standing interest is greatly appreciated.

THE SECRETARY: You have a special place in the hearts of Americans.On food for example, we are making a special effort.

PRIME MINISTER: I am grateful for what you are doing today and for themassive food help you have provided.

THE SECRETARY: You went to the UK and then back to Bangladesh. Didyou take over the government immediately?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. It was very difficult. Everyone was armed and thatcreated a serious problem. I appealed for everyone to surrender their arms.150,000 arms were surrendered to me. The Pakistanis had armedeveryone. The Pakistan military asked permission to arm civilians. We havedocuments that show the Pakistan Army asked permission to arm civiliansat the end.

THE SECRETARY: How about the Chinese? Are they doing anythingsubversive in your country? Do you have relations yet?

PRIME MINISTER: Not yet. We know each other. I went to Peking in 1958and they came to Dacca in 1962. I want friendship with China but we haveour self-respect. I can offer friendship but the initiative has to come fromthem also. We appreciate the US support for Bangladesh in the UN. Yousteadily supported us there from the first day.

THE SECRETARY: My impression is that China will start to move in thenext year to normalize its relations with you. They are concerned aboutIndia, but they do not have anything against Bangladesh. They will moveslowly. Yours is the right policy: friendship with all the Big Powers andavoid all their quarrels. We certainly don't object to your good relations withthe Soviet Union.



PRIME MINISTER: Thank you. You've done wonderful things over the lasttwo years.

THE SECRETARY: It is easy to conduct relations for an establishedcountry, but your Foreign Minister has had to conduct relations for a newcountry--to start from nothing. That is much more difficult. Were youreleased together?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. After they released me, I asked them why theyforgot my friend. I asked them to release him because he was my ForeignAffairs Adviser.

THE SECRETARY: Were you treated badly?

PRIME MINISTER: They kept me in solitary confinement. Theconditions were bad. It was 117 degrees.

FOREIGN MINISTER: I was a little cooler because I was in the NWFP.

PRIME MINISTER: The case they made against me was a farce.

THE SECRETARY : We exerted very great pressure.

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. I know you did. They tried to kill me on thenight of the 16th. The officer-in-charge took me out and hid me for fivedays near the Chashma Barrage. They planned to say that there hadbeen a revolt of the prisoners and the prisoners had killed me. Theytried to kill me three times: in 1958, when Martial Law came, theyarrested me; in 1966 they arrested me on a conspiracy charge; in 1971they arrested me and tried to kill me. I am living on extensions.

THE SECRETARY: You have six more lives to live. They say that cats

have nine lives. But you have made a great achievement. You havecreated a new state. You will find that the President will be verysympathetic in your talks tomorrow. We have our own difficulties withCongressional limits on aid and with our own food shortages, but we willmake a special effort. I look forward to seeing you again in Bangladesh atthe end of the month.



PRIME MINISTER: I have this special problem with these people whodo not want to remain in Bangladesh. I have to do something. ShouldI expel them like Idi Amin did?

THE SECRETARY: You mean the Biharis?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Pakistan won't take them? We will take thesequestions up when we are there. You can explain this in more detail.

PRIME MINISTER: I have nothing in my hand to bargain with. I havetaken risks. They killed professors, intellectuals, journalists justbefore the surrender. I have to explain this to my people. I never go

back on my word, but this time I did. I said that they would be tried onBangladesh soil. There has been no trial.

THE SECRETARY: It was a very humane and statesmanlike act to foregotrials, so that you could work for a long-term relationship. I will take this up.

NOTE: As the Prime Minister and the Secretary left the Prime Minister'ssuite Bangladesh reporters asked for comments on the meeting. TheSecretary said that he and the Prime Minister had a very warm and friendlydiscussion. They had discussed the economic development and thewell-being of Bangladesh. They had discussed ways in which the US mighthelp with immediate problems and with long-term development. The PrimeMinister stated that they had a warm and friendly discussion. He was gladto hear the Secretary's views on Bangladesh and expressions of concernfor Bangladesh. The Prime Minister said the Secretary understoodBangladesh's problems and will try to do his best for Bangladesh. He notedthat US-Bangladesh relations are very good and will grow stronger.

Both participants made similar comments to American newspapermen who

questioned them subsequently. The Secretary was asked whether he hadset a date for his visit to South Asia. The Secretary said he hoped to havesomething on that later this week.

Questioned about the Washington Post story that morning on therelationship between Bangladesh's sale of jute bags to Cuba and thesigning of a PL 480 agreement, the Prime Minister brushed it aside, and



the Secretary said the subject did not come up in their discussion. TheSecretary introduced the Foreign Minister Kamal Hossain to the press as"another student of mine."

MEMORANDUMTHE WHITE HOUSEWASHINGTON

MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION

PARTICIPANTS:President Gerald R. FordHis Excellency Sheikh Mujibur Rahman,Prime Minister of BangladeshDr. Kamal Hossain, Foreign Minister

Ambassador M. Hossain AliLt. General Brent Scowcroft, Deputy Assistant to the President for NationalSecurity Affairs

DATE AND TIME: Tuesday - October 1, 1974 3:00 p.m.PLACE: The Oval Office The White House

[The press was admitted briefly for photos. There was a discussion of pipetobacco and Mrs. Ford's condition. The press was ushered out.]

President: It was a shock to us. We had to make the decision for theoperation, then wait for them to determine malignancy, and so forth.

Mujibur: I sincerely hope she is out of danger.

President: Yes, the prognosis cannot be certain, but only two nodes out of30 were malignant.

It is good to have you here. It is the first time an American President has

met with the head of state of Bangladesh.

Mujibur: Yes. I am happy to have the opportunity to talk with you about mypeople.

President: We are happy to do what we can for all countries.



Mujibur: You know the history of my country. Its condition after the war waslikened to that of Germany in 1945. I want to thank you for your help to us.Before the war we were divided by India. The capital was all in the west.Bangladesh wasn't too bad in '47. Seventy percent of the representatives inthe Parliament were from the West; I was in the Parliament. Most of theAdministration was destroyed in the war or left for India. Even in the rest wecouldn't get out of the West. Everyone has been suffering, first from thewar, then from drought, then from the floods. Thanks to help from countrieslike you, no one is starving. We have had to import everything. Since thenwe started to bring our trade deficit down, until the inflation, drought and thefloods came.

Bangladesh has resources. If we could control the floods, we could beself-sufficient in five years. We produce rice, jute, wheat, and tobacco. We

have big gas deposits -- 10-20 trillion cubic feet. We were almostself-sufficient in fertilizer but our plants were damaged. With our own gasand fertilizer plants we could begin to export fertilizer, except for inflation.

President: We have been telling the OPEC countries that if their high pricesresult in the problems that you and the industrial countries are having, thehigh prices will bring a collapse and won't help them.

Mujibur: We are suffering so badly from the oil prices.

President: The OPEC countries must realize they are being shortsighted.

Mujibur: We are having a famine, and I have just heard that a cyclone ishitting. We are in dire straits. I have opened food kitchens in each of theregional areas to keep people from starving.

President: Wouldn't a Bangladesh Consortium to include some rich oilproducers by a good thing? It would give them a chance to....

Mujibur: Abu Dhabi and Iran have joined the Consortium. I have a crisisimmediately, Mr. President, in grain and food aid.

President: There is 250,000 tons of food grains that are being madeavailable for you. As we look at our food picture we will do what we can.We had hoped for a bigger crop. We had a wet spring and then a drought,and now an early frost. So our crop is disappointing. We must see what we



have and we will do our very best with what we have.

Mujibur: You are very kind. I hope, if I can make the flood control projectwith World Bank, we will be self-sufficient within five years. With our gas wehope for oil. We have signed contracts with Atlantic-Richfield and Union Oil.Eventually we can export. But that is in the future, and my crisis isimmediate.

President: Do you work with the international lending institutions?

Mujibur: We are a member of the World Bank. Mr. McNamara visitedBangladesh just after our independence. Most of my mills are working now,but there are not enough materials and parts to go at capacity.

President: How about the price of jute?

Mujibur: It has only gone up 10-12%.

We won a majority in Pakistan. We are doing our best to be friendswith them. Though millions were killed, or jailed or exiled, we want toforget. We released the Pakistani prisoners, including 195 warcriminals. We think we should get some share of the old Pakistaniassets. Yet I have had to take on the liabilities of the new country.Bhutto came to Dacca and I told him this, but so far nothing hashappened. Also there are 700,000 non-Bengalees in my country.400,000 want to stay in Bangladesh. That is fine. But Pakistan won'ttake the others who want to go there. I have to feed my people. Howcan I take care of my people when I have to take care of these?

I wanted to present these problems to you. I want good relations witheveryone.

President: We congratulate you on your independence and UN

membership. I was up there two weeks ago. I was encouraged with theimproving attitude toward the UN. The American people in recent timeshave a better attitude towards the United Nations. I hope we can all workbetter in the United Nations. If it is just a debating society, it is no good. Butwe should use it to make it work.

Mujibur: We are grateful to you. We are a poor country but we want good



relations with you.

President: What is the comparison between what used to be East and WestPakistan?

Mujibur: Pakistan is 65 million. I am 75 million. Pakistan is larger than I. Iam starting a family planning organization. We are having particularproblems now. I am glad you know our problems. I want to survive.

President: The 150,000 tons [of wheat] is all set. The 100,000 is virtuallyassured and only depends on our supplies. We....

Mujibur: Would you consider edible oil and cotton? Our people arediscussing with yours now.

President: We will do what we can.

Mujibur: Thank you. I officially invite you to visit Bangladesh.

President: Thank you. Isn't Secretary Kissinger going there?

Mujibur: Yes. On 30 October, but I want to invite you.

The Secretary’s 8:00 a.m. Staff Meeting Friday, August 15, 1975

Participants:

THE SECRETARY OF STATE - HENRY A. KISSINGER

P Mr. SiscoE Mr. RobinsonT Mr. Maw

AF Ambassador Mulcahy, ActingARA Mr. RogersEA Mr. Zurhellen, ActingEUR Mr. Armitage, ActingNEA Mr. AthertonINR Mr. HylandS-P Mr. Lord



EB Mr. EndersS/PRS Mr. Funseth, ActingPM Mr. VestPM Ambassador BuffumH Ambassador McCloskeyL Mr. LeighS/S Mr. Borg, ActingS Mr. Bremer

[Omitted here is discussion unrelated to Bangladesh]

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Let's talk about Bangladesh.

MR. ATHERTON: Well, it was a remarkably well-planned and executed

coup for Bangladesh.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: What does that mean? Is Mujibur alive ordead?

MR. ATHERTON: Mujibur is dead; his immediate clique, which was largelyfamily, nephews, brothers.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: I get good advice from INR.

MR. HYLAND: He wasn't dead when I talked to you.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Really? Did they kill him after some period?

MR. ATHERTON: As far as we know -- I can't say we have got all thedetails. But the indications are that the plan was to kill him. And they simplysurrounded his palace and went in and killed him. That is as far as weknow now.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Didn't we tell him that last year?

MR. ATHERTON: In March we had lots of indications --

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Didn't we tell him about it?

MR. ATHERTON: We told him at the time.



SECRETARY KISSINGER: Didn't we tell him who it was going to be,roughly?

MR. ATHERTON: I will have to check whether we gave him the names.

MR. HYLAND: We were a little imprecise on that.

MR. ATHERTON: He brushed it off, scoffed at it, said nobody would do athing like that to him.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: He was one of the world's prize fools.

MR. ATHERTON: But it seems that the coup leaders are in complete

control.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Who are they?

MR. ATHERTON: They are military officers, middle and senior officers, whoare generally considered less pro-Indian than the past leadership; pro-U.S.,anti-Soviet.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Absolutely inevitable.

MR. ATHERTON: Islamic. They have changed the name to the IslamicRepublic --

SECRETARY KISSINGER: That they would be pro-U.S. was not inevitable.In fact, I would have thought at some turn of the wheel they were going tobecome pro-Chinese, and anti-Indian I firmly expected. I always knew Indiawould rue the day that they made Bangladesh independent. I predicted thatsince '71.

MR. ATHERTON: I think our biggest problem is going to be to avoid tooclose an embrace.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Why -- because they are friendly to us?

MR. ATHERTON: I think they are going to want us to come in withpromises.



SECRETARY KISSINGER: The principle being we only embrace on thesub-continent those who oppose us. What is the principle?

MR. ATHERTON: I think our principle ought to be we are giving about allthe aid we can really give or Bangladesh can really absorb.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Before we implement it, let's check that. I knowwe can't do a huge increase in aid. But I think if people who think they arepro-U.S. come to us and then get a technical lecture that unfortunately wecan't do any more -- there must be some maneuvering we can do on foodaid and some token increase in aid.

MR. ENDERS: We can do a little more on food aid.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: I would like them to get it, if they are indeedwhat you say they are, which I don't know.

MR. ATHERTON: These are all the initial indications.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Then they ought to get a friendly reception.

MR. ATHERTON: I think the immediate question is how we comportourselves with the new government. It seems to me despite what the memosays which we sent you, which I didn't have time to go over carefully thismorning -- I think we ought to simply respond to any overtures.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: What did the memo say?

MR. ATHERTON: It says we ought to hold off on a decision on recognition.But I don't think that needs to be posed as that sharp a question.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: We ought to recognize.

MR. ATHERTON: I don't know what recognizing means in this case. I thinkwe simply --

MR. SISCO: Just continue. That memo said also we have to check all thiswith the Indians, as if to give the Indians a veto. I certainly don't agree withthat.



MR. ATHERTON: I think it would be useful --

SECRETARY KISSINGER: We certainly shouldn't go to the Indians.

MR. ATHERTON: I think there might be some merit in an exchange ofviews with them.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: After we have done it. We will not even discussestablishing contact with the new government with the Indians. Aftercontact is established, we would be interested to hear their views, as longas they clearly understand that they cannot tell us what to do, and as longas they cannot go to the Bangladesh and tell them -- and then askBangladesh for their views, so that they can be transmitted to us.

MR. ATHERTON: I fully agree.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: Which is what India would dearly love to do.

You better let me see any approaches.

MR. ATHERTON: I think we have to prepare a telegram today, and we willclear it with you, on what we say to the Indians. And the Pakistanis areimportant. There will be some move towards Pakistan.

SECRETARY KISSINGER: I also want to see you for a few minutes on asober instruction to Bhutto, and some of his ideas on commitments. Okay.

[Omitted here is discussion unrelated to Bangladesh]

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mujib in US