BBC-HARDTALK INTERVIEW WITH TUN DR.MAHATHIR MOHAMAD.recorded on 18th day of April, 2008 in London.Stephen Sackur Intr!uct"n#Last month marked a watershed in the politics of Malaysia. The ruling national front recorded its worst election results in five decades. Its still in power but seriously weakened. My guest today personifies the power of the ruling party for 22 years.He was Malaysias M and one of the most outspoken leaders in the Muslim world. His critics called him a racist and a dictator. Has retirement mellowed !r.Mahathir Mohamed"Stephen Sackur# !r Mohamad welcome to Hardtalk. Lets start with that election result last month$ has it marked the beginning of the end for Malaysias ruling party"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# %ot necessarily$ unless no action is taken$ of course it may result in that. &ut if proper action is taken$ including of course the present rime Minister leaving his seat of power$ it may be possible to bring back the &arisan %asional 'ront in order to become again a very strong ruling party.Stephen Sackur# (oure saying that M )bdullah &adawi has to be kicked out for the ruling party to recover"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell not so strong as that. He can step down. I stepped down in my time. Its about time that he steps down because the result of the election shows clearly that many of the former followers$ supporters of the %asional 'ront had decided that they would work$ vote for the +pposition even if they didnt like the +pposition. They voted for the +pposition to send a message to the present government.Stephen Sackur# rime Minister )bdullah says that you have been one of the curses that have brought him down$ because youve been sniping from the sidelines for the last two or three years.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# That may be so. I dont see why I should not criticise wrongdoings by him.Stephen Sackur# *hat wrongdoings"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell in the first place$ the government promises to remove corruption and things like that$ but the government is found to be corrupt.Stephen Sackur# (ou are tearing your own party apart though$ that is the problem. )nd that is what manypeople inside your party believe.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell sometimes it may be necessary. I told people that Im a doctor. If I find one leg becoming gangrenous I remove it.Stephen Sackur# %ow he has said rime Minister )bdullah$ that he will go eventually$ but is your message to him that he has no time$ he must go now"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# He must go now$ because he will take time to revive the party for the ne,t election.Stephen Sackur# Isnt the truth of what we see in Malaysia today that the real discontent isnt so much with rime Minister )bdullah$ it is with the system and the ideology that you be-ueathed to your country"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell the system and the ideology have been there for the last ./ years. Its worked very well we had always won elections$ people always supported us and the country has done very well during that ./ years with that system.Stephen Sackur # &ut the indications are and the opposition succeeded by saying to the public$ we no longer want this racially defined system inside Malaysia. )nd it was the racial defined system that was theplatform upon which you succeeded in running Malaysia for 22 years.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# I think thats wishful thinking on the part of foreign critics. &ut the fact is that this election result was due to disaffection on the part of the ruling partys supporters$ with the present leadership.Stephen Sackur # *ell let me 0ust -uote you the words of the new head of enang 1tate and lets not forget that these results saw five very big and wealthy states go to the +pposition. The new head of enang 1tate Mr Lim 2uan 3ng$ he says 4we want a new state administration that is free from corruption and cronyism$ we are here to build a enang 1tate for all. (ou didnt build a Malaysia for all did you"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# I did. If you look at Malaysia today. 3verybody is en0oying$ has en0oyed$ a very good life. They have become very prosperous. Malaysia was one of the fastest growing countries in the world. If you look at the different races$ you can find that they all benefited from that government. 1o it is of course$ necessary for +pposition parties to make remarks like that.Stephen Sackur # &ut they are not making it up are they" Lets look at your new economic policy which you pursued for so long. It favours ethnic Malays$ in so many different ways$ from public sector appointments to university places$ to advantageous ac-uisition of stocks$ discounts on housing$ I dont know where to stop. There are so many different ways in which you ran an une-ual system.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# %o this was a policy which was initiated by my predecessors$ it was necessary to...Stephen Sackur # &ut you ran it for 22 years$ you had ample opportunity to change it.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# (es I had ample opportunity to implement in a way that will correct imbalances that e,isted in Malaysia since the &ritish days. )nd unless these imbalances are corrected theres bound to be another race riot$ as happened in 5676.Stephen Sackur # &ut the point is that 8/ thousand Indians for e,ample$ were on the streets protesting long and loud last %ovember$ because they are no longer prepared to live with the racial division that you set in the stone.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *hy now" *hy not during my time" They were -uite free to demonstrate. Many of the people who disagreed with me demonstrated...Stephen Sackur # &ut many of the people who disagreed with you$ Im afraid ended up in prison.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ho"Stephen Sackur # Hundreds of them$ read every )mnesty international and human rights watch report forthe years in which you were in power..Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# The western press$ the problem is that you make up these stories and then you take this as the truth$ its not the truth. Tell me who are the hundreds of people who ended up in prison.Stephen Sackur# Ill discuss human rights a little bit later. I 0ust want before we get distracted from this -uestion of racism in Malaysia$ I 0ust want to put to you this final point# )nwar Ibrahim says that he is going to push and of course he your long time friend who became$ your political enemy$ he is going to push for a colour blind Malaysia where affirmative action is open to all who need help.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell this opportunism for him$ now that he is out of the government$ he was in the government for a long time$ he never made any complaints$ he never did anything to.Stephen Sackur # He certainly made a complaint when you locked him up.!r.Mahathir Mohamad# *ell that was not the reason why he was locked up$ he was accused of sodomy$ he was accused of abuse of power$ he was tried in court$ nine months and he was defended by nine lawyers and he was found guilty...Stephen Sackur # Trumped up charges.. trumped up charges.. says not 0ust Human 9ights *atch$ )mnesty International but Ive been looking through the record$ the :anadian government$ the *hite House$ the International :ommission of ;urists$ all of them e,pressed grave and deep concern with the way in which your 0udicial system treated )nwar Ibrahim.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# (es youre free to say so but...Stephen Sackur # Im not saying it$ Im 0ust -uoting to you all the people who did say it.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# &ut what is the record of these countries" These people$ these same countries arrested people without the law$ and detained them in 2uantanamo &ay and even in &ritain here$ you arrest people and detain them without any sanction by law.Stephen Sackur # 1o does that make it okay that you did it for 22 years"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *e did it under the laws of the country$ but it is not the way...Stephen Sackur # (ou used the laws which went back to colonial times$ the internal security act$ emergency procedures$ you feel satisfied to tell me that that was entirely legitimate"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# %o we find that the situation in the country is very very fluid and it is very likely that there will be racial riots$ unless we prevent precise people who are promoting racial hatred from talking about it.Stephen Sackur # ut it this way$ !r Mahathir$ youve had several years out of power now to consider your record and what you did$ I wonder whether you are now ready to say that you regret what you did to )nwar Ibrahim"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *hy should I regret" He was arrested under the laws of the country$ he was triedin the courts of the country and he was sentenced by the court. If he was not wrong$ I dont think$ no matter what you think about our 0udiciary$ I dont think he would have been sentenced to prison.Stephen Sackur # It damaged your reputation though didnt it"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell thats something I have to accept.Stephen Sackur # (ou may also find it comes back to haunt you" )nwar Ibrahim is now leading the opposition coalition. *e are led to believe that there are certain Ms in the ruling party who may defect tohim$ in which case he could very soon be running the government. )nd hes made it plain that he wants tohave you answer for all of the things you do while you were in power.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell hes welcome to do that if he becomes the rime Minister of Malaysia$ but ifhe wins over members of the ruling party to his side$ it is the prime minister$ the present leader who should be blamed$ because he couldnt even get the loyalty of his own members.Stephen Sackur # It wasnt the current prime minister who was in power when )nwar Ibrahim was savagely beaten during his time in detention"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# 1avagely beaten" I know he was slapped and he had a black eye which was very useful for election purpose...Stephen Sackur # *hy you think he hit himself maybe"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell I dont know what happened..but the police the I2 admitted that he assaulted )nwar$ but that wasnt me that was the I2.Stephen Sackur # &ut how do you respond$ if )nwar comes to power and he as he said on this programme and elsewhere$ that he wants a full and thorough public in-uiry into all of your$ !r Mahathirs misdeeds$ how will you respond to that"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# He is welcome to do so$ but I hope that he finds people who are neutral$ who areimpartial$ probably foreigners$ because I dont trust the people that they put after people they dont like.Stephen Sackur # Interesting that you say you dont trust people who are currently or maybe in charge of any in-uiry$ do you trust the integrity of the Malaysian 0udiciary"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# I do$ at times I do but...Stephen Sackur # Is that because you appointed the 0udges"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# I didnt appoint the 0udges$ the 0udges were recommended by the :hief ;ustice and my duty is to check whether he has any records or not and after that he is presented to the king who will then appoint the 0udge...Stephen Sackur # !r Mahathir$ you know as well as I do$ that the hottest political topic in Malaysia today$ is the state of the 0udiciary$ the integrity of the 0udiciary and that a video has been playing in Malaysia for along time now which shows a top lawyer talking to a top 0udge going back to 2//5$ in which the lawyer says to the 0udge 4believe me in the end all of the positions going all the way to the supreme court are fi,ed by the politicians$ i.e. by you who were the prime minister at the time !r Mahathir"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# !id he say that" !id he mention my name"Stephen Sackur # He didnt mention your name he said this will be fi,ed$ this goes through the political system. (ou ran the political system.Mahath"r Mha$a!# Im not so sure about that. &ut the fact is that this man had his video taken because they intended to blackmail him. He happens to be my lawyer$ defending me at this moment for libel against )nwar and this tape came from )nwar. )nwar had these things recorded in order to blackmail the lawyer.Stephen Sackur # &ut the point is the current government led by rime Minister )bdullah who is nominally or despite what you have said on this programme$ is of your party. rime Minister )bdullah has now essentially apologised$ he said both to the supreme court 0ustice that you removed and to other 0udges that were suspended or removed during your time in power$ hes said sorry to them. Hes said that he wants to offer them monetary compensationDr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# 'ine but its a political move. 1omething a man who is very unpopular at the moment$ wanting to show that hes going to do something right.Stephen Sackur# )nd that !r Mahathir is my point. The Malaysian people no longer want to live with the system you created. Thats why rime Minister )bdullah is essentially dismantling the system that you created.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# %o no no hes not dismantling the system$ he is making use of the system in a worse way. %obody can say anything against him$ he has newspapers which only reports about him and how great he is. )nd he was mislead by his own supporters$ into believing that if he holds the election now$ this is one and half years before the end of the term$ he would win$ he would have a clean sweep.If you look at the records$ he made statements that he would win the election$ with before you left office$ you said anglo=1a,on 3uropeans are essentially proponents and Im -uoting here# 4proponents of war$ sodomy and genocide.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *hich is true$ you must admit.Stephen Sackur# &ut youre not anti=western"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# Im stating the fact. This is their character and I will continue to say so.Stephen Sackur# 1o when you come here$ you sit in the Hardtalk studio$ in the heart of London$ you regard yourself do you$ as in one of the Head-uarters of war$ sodomy and genocide"Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell I come here of course e,pecting to be lambasted by you$ because that is the way you work.Stephen Sackur# *ell Im not lambasting you at all. Im trying to tease out whether you believe it was a mistake for you to use this sort of language. &ecause you clearly cut yourself off$ from any sort of meaningful dialogue with the *est when you use these words.Dr.Mahath"r Mha$a!# *ell the 3uropeans used to call us the la