Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 14 AUGUST 1924

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Quntions. [l4 AUGG"8T.1 Questions. 2Ul

THURSDAY, 14 AUGUST, 1924.

The SFL\KER (Hon. \Y. Bertmm, Jirm· e) ·"){''' th.: chair at 10 a.m.

ADDRESS IX REPLY. PnESEXT_\.Tiox AXD ANS\VEIL

Tlw SPEAKER: I ha Ye to report to the IlouH; that I ]Jrhcntecl to. His Excellcnc:r ~!'c boYer;1or the. Add re's m Reply to His ;.xcell•cHcy s Openmg Speech, agn)ed to by 'he Hem se on the 7th mstant, a•1d that Hi.s Exccl10ncy \YUS p]cascd to n1ake the fol1o\Yino· ._ eply thereto:~ :::J

~' Go\·crnn1cnt IIous0. "Brisbane.

:· =•JR. SPEAK~R .\XD GE::\TLE:\IEx,-On L(_· iL H of, our 1\Iost q~acious Sovereign I t 1:ank tno represcntanvcs of the people• of Queensland for the expression of their CfJlJ-~rm!(.d loyalty and affection to IIis M a; ecty s Throne and Person.

·· I am fu!iy .assured that the various ~:H'ctSl~rcs referred to in 1ny Speech opcn­L-~· tnc prcoccnt Sc:>~.ion of l)arliarncnt r.nd rdl other n1atters that may be broucrht bpfo~,~~ :p.Y~ \YiH receive your ~nost car~ful eT;. ·1Gorat1on, and that it will be vour

-''t cndeavDur so to deal with them your labours may tend tD the

'lfh- ncemcnt nnd pro:3poribl of th0 State. -" J'vfATTHEW SAT!L\X.

'· ?>h ~\u::-:>usL 192~-"

Ql'ESTIOXS. .\u~on r to~·, TO D:t:TEU)IIXE PuRCHASE PniCE

o-- I-husnA:\c TRAJ.nV.\YS.

?llr. El=HR (Eroo:;uu) asked the Premier­.. he Yicw of the fact that the tDtal

C'XlJf'' diturc on the tramway systcn1 to d ~r~.' uf acqnj" ition by the Trust was

£1.025,303 (•oc· Appendix to the Brief 1-Iistmy compiled bv :\Iossrs. J. P. "Iacfadane and C. A: Murton), and the straight-out settlcnwnt being fDr the sui11 of £1.400.000, will he take an early oppor­tunity Df making " statement to the Rou-e on the • hole of the negotiations

·hich t~ecided the p11rchasc price?"

Tlw PRE2\llFH (Hen. E. G. Theodm~. Cri.'' !f/Ot) rcpli<'d-

" If the h'1n. n1PLlb.:r for Enoggc1·a will raise the question on ihe Estima tcs. I shall endeaYOlH to furnish the infonnu­tiun h:...: ·eek:::.''

:c\£(F.C·S1TY FOR BRIXGIXG AGRlCULTl'RAL D.\'-:K An rxTo 0PERATIOK.

nJ,·. CORSER (Jlurnett) asked !he Secrctarv for ),,.;:- ricnli nr~- ~

·· 1. In ,-j,.,._. of the fac' that the Agri­C'nltural Bank Act -..vas l)F"~ed bv Parlia­l ~ nt in Y123 f~_;:;· the p-urpose ~f giving al~clitional a .si:st dice to farmers and :·ttlers. ·w}n has action not been taken

to l)Ut 'this ) .. et into operahon?

·· 2. As ne\Y s. ttlcrs in the "Upper Bur-11"tr aud Ca1lidc. as ,-·ell as settlers in all pnrts of Quoen:;la.nd) arc no',Y requiring linruccial a'<c istnnce, will he tako earlY i- 1J~tion to ilv~ ·~Act into operation i~1 orclt'l' tn then: to haYc the possi-hilih- of se rhc nch:antagcs dain1cd tb~r~'ill a11f1 tlw n-taximunl advance of

in"-tr cl of the I~aximum of £1.200 updr:r thP lH"E'SCllt P. ... ct ?" .

The• SECB.ETAHY FOH. AGRIGCLTL"RE (Hon. \Y. :'\. Giiiie Fatll!l.n) replied-

" It " that the nocessarv Proclatnntion be i~sucd in the nea·r futuro.''

ST.\XD.I.Rnrs.\Tiox on Co-ORDIX.\Trox OF ELEC­nuc.u. I JWER ScHE:\IES.

c1h. KERR (f<:nn:;qera) asked the Secre· iary for Public \York'-

.. 1. \·rhat action, if any, has been ta1:;:cn ln- the Go' crnn1ent in regard to the :'-i.nndardi-,. or 1 ')-ordination of elc:> trical 1' n or

"2. Is hr a ware that other States of "he Commonwealth have alreadv taken

jn the 1nattcr of standarudisation public utiljtics?

'; 3. DoPs h ~ ronsiclcr \YC have the popu­lation uHl market for legislation to be introclucod on the lines~ of advanced ~1.tU'"', s;~ch n~ .\.ict()rin and T'aHuania. in this connect ion :

f3atisficd that the various s.:h2n1ec.. by local bodies are

action has been taken bv the GoYcrnmcnt to give effect to the foullow­ing rf':~olutions a;:-r.:·ed to at a Prcn1ieLo' Co-nferenre: --

(u) Thrrt the States should obtain .1ll the infornuttion rcnuircd, and 1hat it shoEltl be Hl. do availabln ·to each other and 10 the Co1nn1 '11\v,:alth?

(b) That •n ,,h·isor:· board or board to de !l \vith the shtndardisation of electrical po\YCr in the Comm()ll\Ycalth dwuld be appointed; the composition of "'eh bon·d tD be ngreed upon be­tv ·een the Con1nlOll\vealth and the State:'"

:l:lO Trru:-.lling Expenses of Jiinisters. [ASSE:\IBLY.] Diseasr 3 in Plants, Etc., B:U.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC \VORKS (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Jiaday) replied-

" 1. The matter of standardisation or co-ordination of electrical power schemes vill be dealt with when finalitv is reached \Yi t h regard to stand arcl isr!Zl pressures and frequencic', which is now being innotigated by the _.\ustralian Common­\Ycalth Engineering Standards As:3ocja­tion

"2. Yes.

"3. The Elccrri<: Lin h1 and Power Act of 1896. the Water P0 '"' r "',et of 19~2, and tho C _tirns 1-I: lho-E1ectrie Pmver Investig~tion Bo.trd Act of 1922 rcive the Stat·· ample powers \Yithout any fresh lc;.:;islation at prc'seJ~t. The GoYern­Jncnt is fully aliYc to 1 he po-.:3ibilitie:! of devc>iopmcnt of electric po·,,er.

" 4. All sclwnws ;lOW approved of a. m in accord with the anticipated demands.

'· 5. The Quecnslalld Govel'l1nwnt is represented on the Sectional Committee of the Commonwealth Enginef'l'ing Standards o\.ssociation, which is .. tppointed to deal with the matter of etandardi­'ntion of elcc trical pmYer in the Com­I1JOTI\vcalth.·'

PAPERS.

'The follo-wing lHtpcrs y;!_'re luid on the table:-

R0gulation 60 undt·r tb.~ Di~L'a :CS 111 l'lat,ts Act of 1916.

_\Iteration of Hegulation 2 and additional Rcgu1ation 11 of the Prin1arv Pro­ducers' Levy RPgnlatiolls lnH!er the Prin1ar-,-,- Prodnrcrs' Urgani:ntion _\ctc, Ul22 to 1923. ~

SL'PI'LY.

CoxsnTcnox OF CcnniiTT.EE.

The PRKi'.liER 1Hon. E. G. Tlwdore, Chillur;r•r): I beg to lllO\C-

,, That th,, RomP >Yill, at it-> next itbng·, rc~·clyc itscL~ into .a C\numittce

of the \Vholc to comidc1· the SupJ>i:. to be gTantod to lhs :\lnj<' •t: .. ·'

Quest ion put and pa <eel.

Coxsnn:nox oF CmL ·lTTH:.

Tho PRK\IIER iH• 11. E. G. Thco. 1orc, Cliilluf'or): I br-g to lllCJYC'-

" That the 1-jou 7 i1L at it~ next ~it1ing, n :'oJ·,·c it~Plf into a C·Jmmittee nf the ~Yhole t0 o' \Ya··' ancl ::\leans for n:i~ing Sup;)l_\- to be ~·i'antcd to El:i ::\l~de~ty.~'

QH(1Hion put and yJaS."C'd.

TE \. YELLI?\G ESPE::\SES OF :\II:\'ISTERS.

:\lr. :\IORGA?\ (Jiu.·ii ,) : I beg to mm·,,_

"That there be laid upon the +"bk of tbr l:Iousc a return ·-ho~.·ing th(' ~nnount l'"",:_pendcd by e .... c-h ~fini-tcr and ..:'\.:;~idant

::\linist0r in travcl1ing cxpcn:;;c~ the iinancial vear ended 30th 1924."

QucGl icn put and pas,,cd.

dnring-­June,

DISE_.I.SES I::"J PLA::"JTS ACT A!1E:\D­:\1E:\"T DILL.

SECOND READIXG.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR AGRICVLTCRE (Hon. IV. N. Gillies, Eaclw111): This is a short Bill of two clause', but none the lc3s lt is of con~Sidcrablo in1.portance to the conntr''· Hon. members will ad·nit that ono of the problerns of the age is the ques­tiou of dealing ,_--ith pests. The diff!cultv at the present timr> is not confined to QnCen.s­land, althou2,·h, perhaps, Qe~eensland h ·'> lr:Ol',.· discaGes and n1oro pests aiTectin(~

1JTin1ary product::: and stock than an,- --f the other States. However, the prc.ble•n of <lraling IYith pestd in fruit culture, general f.lgriculture, and stork ];;;- one of ypry great irnportancc to th0 nntion. An old officer of n1v ·department, who had taken up the 'tudy of pests. told me that a distingui•he<l lecturer came to Queensland twenty years ago, and dPliYercd a lecture on nernatoids and the danger of parasite·· to the hunu-tn race, and after th( lr:>chue ; ls dclin·rPd thi·: officer told tlw lr'nturer­fhat he IYas losing a good deal of slr' ~~ oYCl'

\he quc,tion, and the lecturer said, .. Shake hands: I an1 glad to 1ncet onP r.1an in Queensland IYho is losin~· ~omc :;,ll_'j_) oyer thi-s quc-:tion, b(_)cansc at tbe rate Yarious parasites and pests in agriru1t.uTc and ~tock arc increasing it is quost.ionul1Je if tho human , rue will b0 ablP to exist on this planet for 1nany n1ore centuries."

There ar0 1nany problerns afft.'ctin~ agri­culture in thic State. As reg·arrls ]n'e" nt leo;i~lation, the Act of 1916 de.th "'ith CliSeases in 1llants generally, J.nd 1va-. far in adyance of the _\rt of 1896, \\·hich it l'Cpcaled, and ga\'e grcBter pOFC'r to tl11; department and to its insp< "tors. E~peri­c:~..:e ::.inf'C' lhen ha~ taught us tbat greater po\Yer still is required, particuln.rl_,- \vith :r0srard to the pests in the fruit indu:--try-I "ncd1t mention specially the fruit f1. ~mT the codlin 1noth-.and amcnd1nent again js. lHYe~surv if wo are going; to rope l.Yith 1h0sn tK-t~. tlH' TJnJ,~crsity has taken the ma~h'r np 111 Stanthorp0, and I l-:aY0 had YanotH intf n·icws ·v:ith Prof~?3~or GoOdard, 1\-ho hn:-; been ot ccn::.idPra1Jlc nssidancc to tht: dr1JartmcnL and h(_ is YCr';: optin1i:;tl.- alwut suC{'r--.s in eradiet1ting th8' fruit fi:~ in the Stanthorpc district.

:\h. PrTERSON: What about th·· H· rvcy frult fly lure?

The SECRETARY FOR _-cGHifTLTFRE: I alll hopeful that goorl will l'f',uit fmm il. ~Ir. I-Iun·ey i-'- negotiating IYith the -:1 pnrt­JJ~t•nt in ronncction with lhn n1attnr. and I (1t ,ire to Pn<:ourage him and ~n~~c.~. i 11

that direction. (He :r, itcnr 1) A lot 111 .. tinF-' i:-'i taken up by 0uthn_,ia·_l.'Cl quite ll'nest in br lieYin,.~ 1hat co\·crc<l a rcmcch for ·: ll i1JC' heir to. Errly" 1n wy politic 1 ea I\ "_·r I lr:unt to be patient \Yith the ·O-callccl c·rank \':ho thinks he has di.sco"'·PrC'd ~o:ncthin:x -,"<·hich will benefit the comrnunitv. I hclil'Y·-, }lr. IIar~·; __ v has impro\-f'Cf his lnrc~ ?}oly, and if he .can sati~f .. th0 d( rwrtlnent and the Go'-'ernn1ent th<-<t l1c has di.::;cu :creel ~on1cthiu~ thnt i-c u;;;cful, and that it i._ his prop0rtv.~ and if he itS prepared to nffcr it to the Go;·ernment on the l1asis of :·o:. 1ty or

Diseases in Plants Act [14 AUGUST.]

~ome r-th~T rca<mable rnethod 1Yhercbv fruit.:.:.Tower..; -will benefit, I an1 quite pr~­lJan,_l to consider his lure or anvone else's lure. "

It is significant that most of the pests >Yhich exist in this State at the present time and arc :so dE···tructive to the orclkrclists have been brought into the coumr:-. perhaps, by woll-meanirw people­] ik~- ;)rickly-pear, for instance, ~7hich ""a~ brong·IJt here by wmcone who had no idea, I suppose. of the immoral and unpatriotic act he v. as performing to this country; and the cattle' tick like>Yise. We have imported practicall: all our pest•. There are oome, of course. which are indigenous to the State. such :•, the fruit fly, but the majority of our pests an· imported, and it is due to the action of men that these pests have been allo>Ycd to spread. Take noxious weeds, for ir~~tauc·('. Noxious 1veeds o-enerallv do not grow jn Dur trc~pical scrubs Dr On unused land. bnt when people come along and de-trm· natural scrub and desert land after takin;: wme of the fertility out of it, noxious \YC'('d' Rpread greatly. That applies to prickl,'-)H'ar and nut grass. Nut grass, I undc1 -_.:ta~Id, 1vas rr1any years ago introduced [,_,. a mon narncd Townsend, in New South \Yale.-. :\'ow >Ye ha.-e it all over the Com­memw · ith, and, like all other pest", it is ~prc~ din\! in the 1~ ake of ciYilisation and land ··c: ~lement. The blame cannot be cast on the Almigbty or on 1\;ature; it is through tlw qtenc'' of man that these pests arc allm> 'cl to spread. It is due to the people of thi- Snte that Parliament should gi.-o the department and its inspectors power to deal dn"ti' ally with these pests that ar<' threatening some of our most important inrlu~nir.;;:. Take "liunrhy~top " in bananas. 'fhe banana industrv is one of ottr 1nost promi,ing industries "in this State, and o!l!l that hac done much to bring about closer Rettlement., and it is threatened with cxtinc­ti0n by the serious disease of '' bunch~·-top." The scientists are unable to find out the cause of the disease. but I am satisfied that, like• n~-"ny othPl~ rlisease:::., it was imported fron1 Fiji. " Thrips" is ::tnother disease 11·hich is destroying bananas in the Gympie district.

The ougar-ca.no grub has destroved. acc:onling to the estimate of Mr. Bonson. about £180,000 worth of sugar-cane. \Vo know that the maize beetle, Irish blight in potatoes. caterpillars, and insects in the cotton-fields are doing much damage, and the onl:; w::t,y to cope with them is to give the clc'partment a.ncl the inspectors power. "'here nece\3-,ary, to take drastic action to 0nforcP the law. Something more is needed than the· cumbersome method under the pro~.c·nt Act of having to go to the Minister and gd permission to prosecute. In regard to the huit fly and the codlin moth parti­cular!~-. that permission must be dispensed ~xith. or we cannot give effect to our policy of chcckino:, if n]:)t eradicating, these pests.

The other Sta.tes have found it necessary i (j pas:.s. legislat.ion sin1ilar to ours, particu~ larlv in connection with the fruit industn'; bul.their !a,,-s have had to be amended, a~d \YL' find that our legislation does not go far enough or give us power to act as quicklv as >n· desire. Therefore_ I a.m introducing this small Bill of two cla.use& to tighten up tlw An itnd give greater power to inspectors.

It llli!Y be said that the inspectors, having >noh drastic powers, may abuse them. While I am Secretary for Ag1·icnlture any inspector

who does -.lmse hi~ power' will be dealt with. \\'r have to give corta.in powers to the Police Force·. and we have to trmt the polif'_e to carry out tho::::c powers vvithout n busing then1, and \Ye have to trust the illSpc•ctors of my department in such matters as the supcryision of dairies, the int<pection <Jf stock, and the inspection of meat: w y;p sh~ll have to trust them in n garcl tn frnit inspection. I say that those powers a.re nee• .:;;sarY-1\·hatcver members of Parliament may sa1-. I say thev arc abso­lutely nece-- -.ar;\·-a;:,d with the saf<eguard con1prised in rny promi;,e that an inspector ''vho undnlv cx0rcises them so as to embarra'S am·bodv llll!lecessarilv will be dealt with, I tllink they may well be granted.

The need for the Bill is specially to deal with tho codlin rnorh m the Stanthorpe dis­trict and the fruit fly, which exists practi­cally all m·er Queensland in the huitgrow­ing areas, a5 all our fruib suffer n1ore or less from tha-t dreaded pest. I am going to give a few figure'l later on compiled by m:; department to show the estimated losse' which occur in the various industries through Yariou~ pests and diseaseb. LaBt year in the Stanthorpe district we made a special effort. in co-opNatiun with the University of Queensland. to stamp out the fruit fly. At the special request o£ Professor Godda.rd. who has de.-oit·d a great deal of time and energ:. to this question, we decided that it >.-ac; necessarj to gi Ye power to the inspec­tors to ensure that the whole of the fruit was destrovc-d before the larva' of the fruit fly had tir;1e to develop. That, it has been said, is the only >.-ay in which to stamp out the fly or kEep it seriously in cheek in the Stanthorpe di,triet, and what applies there applies also in other parts of the State. Last _vPar we made a special effort, by the appointn1cnt of fifteen temporary inspectors, to ensm'C' that all tlH' fruit was gathered and destroyed by the 7th ApriL That was the latcct date at which it was thought the fruit could safely b0 allowed to remain, if we were to pren,nt the development of the larnP. \YP haYe met with considerabie success. and ·we intend to appoint n1orc per~ n1ancnt inspectors to carry on the work. Mr. Lowrie >vi!! be in charge, and I hope that. with th<? co-operation of the fruitgrowors­and no schctnc f'1..n Uc a sncref:i~ unless a .-er,· large majority o£ the fruitgrmvers arP b0hincl the inspectors-we shall have still furthe1· snf'ccss. lt is necPs~ary, however. to bring the small minority who are care­!''"' of thr·ir own welfare and of that of their neighbours. into line by means of corn­pulsion in certa.in cases. That is the object of this BilL

I l\'ould no\v like to advance .-wme argument tP justif:·• the paoNing of this legislation. I >mnt to refer to the losses that have occurred ]n the yarious agricultural and stock indus­tries. I find, according to the Director of Fruit Culture, that the estimated loss to the State of Queensland through pests in the fruit industrv amounted in 1922 to the enormous sum o( £410.000. In the same year I find. according (o the Director of the Bureau of Sugar Experiment Stations. that the loss in the sugar industry was 80,000 tons, valued at £2 5s. per ton. or £180,000. That is only an estimate, but it indica.tes the gravity of the position. The loss in the maize industry was £40.000; in the wlwa t industry £35,000; in potato-growing £25,000; and in cotton-grow­ing £18,000. \Ye know the damage that is

Hon. 1V. N. Gillies.]

222 Diseases in Plants Act [ASSE.NIBLY.] Amendment Bill.

caused in the cotton industr:· by the pink boll ,,·orm, ftnd we also know that the maize grub is very destructive in connection with the same industry. In connection with the grow· ing of barlrt)·, oats, rye, rice, gras:::~ seed, onions, tobacco, vegetables. peanuts, etc., the estimated loss through insect pests in 1922 amounted to £4n,OOO, which represents about 10 per cent. of tho value of production from those sources. In the da iryini' industry the loss through poisonous plants 1s estimated at £25,000, and in the cattle-raising industry the loss through tic;;s is estin1ated ac £1,000,000. The value of the cattle·raising industry was arrived at from 'the number ot cattle exported and killed for the year at £5 14s. per head. The direct losses from ticks result from mortality caused by tick "·orry, interference ·with natural increase" retardation of growth, and diminished pro­duction of meat and milk. ThP indirect losses result from general disturbance of the stock trade, damage to hides, and expenditure incurred by dipping and through quarantin­ing. In the sheep-raising indmtry the esti­mated loss occacioned through dingoes, blow· flies, worms, and rabbits amounted to £1,000,000 in 1922. That loss is estimated on the value of production for that year, which \\as £11,700,000. In the raising of swine the loss through parasites amounted to £65,000 over the same period. In connection with horses, camels, and goats, the loss through ticks was £2.500, and the loss through pricldy· pear and rabbits in connection with pastm·ps generally is estimated ~t £1,000,000. The problem is not one to be treated lightly, and shows the utmost necessib- for this Bill. There is no more importa'nt question that my department has to concern itself with at the present time than the dealing with the pc,,ts and diseases in stock and plants, and diseases affecting the agricultural industry generally.

J\lr. KELSO: Does that include the water hyacinth?

The SECRET.-\RY FOR AGRICGL'lT;RE: No. I did not mention the v ater hyacinth, because that does not affect the agricultural industry so much. It is a tremendous pest not only in this State, but in other States. and, like some of the pests that I have mentioned, it was imported from other parh of the world. Probably the water hyacinth has done the greatest amount of damage in America, where some of the great natural "·aterways have been blocked up and entirely lost to the use of hnmanih· bv that vcrv beautiful exotic plant. It do'es i1ot interfere so much with agriculture, and i3 a nHittcr n1ore for the Marino Department. Other S·cates have spent lar;;.o sun13 o£ ElOl!ey iu succt>sfully dealing \Yit.h the water hyacinth. I had some­thing to do with that pest "·hen I was in Kcw South W2Jcs, and I played a pm·t in assisting to clean ont a navigable strran1 which was thrca.tened ,,-ith ruin by this pest.

Coming to the Bill itself. I ju't wallt to rnention briefly what its principle; arc, and the povrers "'O propose to exercise under the emendillg Bill, 11hich I hn,yc no clonbt Parlia­nwut 'i-vill ngree to. I do not want to dC'al particularly with the olauses. because they will be Jcalt with in Committee. Sections 9, 10, 12, and 13 of the Act of 1916 are to be P rnended in certain particulars. The \vords-

" Or anv other n1aterial which is ~n~pccted £o contain any di.seascd tree, plant, or vegetable," are added

in section [9] of clause 2 empower inspectors

[Hon. W. N. Gillies.

to exan1ine the packages-op0ning ihen1 if necessary-and satisfy themsolveo \\heth\r­the contents contain diseases or posh. Tlus covers the packing material which lc.1vers the plant or tree. Paragraph (b) of the same ,section is redrafted so as to leave no doubt ,, - to the power of inspectors to enter where nccf ssa1·y. ·where practic,tble twenty-four hours' Tiotico is to be given by inspectors \\'here it is necesmry for them to enter and inspect orchards when it is considered neces­sary that notice shall bo given for tne immediate dc,truction of the codlin moth and fruit flv. If their destruction is not carried out in ~ reasonable time, inspectors "·ill hayo ]cower to carry out the dest1:uction of tho clPcayino· fruit in order to emdiCate the pests at tho .;'ost of the ow1wr. The cost is to be recoYered against the occupier in the first iiFtance; but if the oreupier cannot be found then we shall look around for the O\\ nc1:, and the responsibility will rest with him. Section [10] of clause 2 sets out what is to be done in the case of the d1scoverc· of a pest and the action taken to z·iy? dire~­tions to destroy fallen frUit. H tlns frun is not destroyed within twenty-fonr hour", the inspe"_,tor ,viH have polvcr in certai!l n:trcme cases to l1ave it destroyed at the cost vf the owner or occupier. This will enable tho inspector to take ·action without having rt:..•course to la"\v. .._L\t tho present tinH~, to gt't the Act carried out it is necessary for the ins)Wctor to report the matter to me. and fot· me in turn to report the matte1· to the Crown Law Office and for that office to jRsue a sun1mons a~d obtain a verdict. \Ve think that tho Act should be carried out c·xpcditiouslv in extren1e cases. . Subsection (3) of s0ction [10] of clause 2 gn·c,; power to charg~ the cost of the eradication to the c'ccupier. The occupier is first to be looked to in an endeavour to recoup the coiit, lnJt if cannot put the responsibility on to him, t .'len it is to be put on to the owner of tlu; land. Section (18A) of clause 2 makes the penelty for the first offence £5, with a maximum of £20.

Lest Parlia.mcnt should bo alarmed at what thc~v mirrht tcrn1 fue drastic nature Df the clause, I ~night say with ·regard to fi1ws that I haYC found it to be a safe rule--not­withstanding tho axiom that ignorance of the law is no oycuse-on tho first offence to warn the offendnr, as it cannot be expected thd the general public and the farn.ing copl­munity ca!l m 1ke themselves cogmsant w1th all the laws Parliament may make; but I have made it plain that a repetition of tho offence \Vill n1can prosecution. Therefore Hvery offender of an Act or regulation ,> dn1inistered by n1e is to ha vc onp _chanc_c. That is reasonable. I do not bceheve m recourse to la,v cxC'ept in extrerne cases. The majority of tll! people obey the la>Y, but if the minoritv do not, then they have to bs brou'•·ht into li!1e. 'Ihe object of this Bill is to bn;g the 1ninority into lino 1\'ith 1·cgarcl to. deo:y ing fruit, so _as h?, bo able to cope wtth some of our serrous fjel3b, particularly those that exist in th' fruit orchard. \Yhen l introduced the Bill in Committee, some hon. members raised the question of an orchttrd tax and of the action taken by my prc· dccc.<or to comnel orchardists to rcgist. r. l an~ not quiteL sure whether jt IYas the 1: pper House that threw out the orchard tax. Anyhow, the Bill, as drafted by the Hon. \V. Lennon, who at that time was Secre­tary for Agriculture, was altered, and this power was taken away. Consequently the

Disea,,es m Plants Act [14 At;GC:ST.] Amendment Bill. 223

p0\\01' to compel orchardists to rq:;ister W!LS

abortive. Fortv thouFand orchardists regis­tered, but the' department was unable to appoint sufficient inspectors to mspect those orchard~. and the measure became a dead lL'ttcr. To-day qultc a large nurnber of thor:e

concerned agree; that an orchard [10.30 a.m.] tax should be brought i?. I do

not think there IS unan1nnt~;r about it h1l in the cour e of tirrw, I have no d~ 1d;t that <'very industry will tax itself to c,-. rrv ont such work in its O\Yll Intere';t. If tlwt· is not done, the State will have to tax the general taxpayer to a gre~ter degr:e. I am hopeful that those engaged 111 our prrn:>:ry indu.stries 'sill make themselves so _famihar with the lH~'- •. -ssitic) of the 1ndustnes, ~n_d become so jealous of the go'?d name of their industries, that in conrso of nmo 1t will be unnccc:;sarv to rnailltain the large army of inspt:'ctors that the Dermrtment of Agriculture and Stock is at pre;;;c•ut keeping and Increas­ing.

From the infonnation I haYe receiycd fron1 DPnnw1·k, 1d1ich is one of the most pro­!:.(l e~sive '- ountries in the v:orld with r£1!~·ard 'to dairy produce, Governrnent inspector_s ~re n,et:>S~ar.~ tnrre. The farn1ers. h~· a maJont:· hove dc.cidcd that the dirty man. the inefr1-cient n1an, the man y·ho injures the industry a.nd the reputation of the product, shall bo d~alt with by the farmers themselves. I hope that our fru~tgrowers will reach that attitude in a short time. It will then be unnecessary q,: the nart of the GovernnlC'nt to pass legis-1: tion o\~ tu enforce ~1\cts. The fruitgro\'\'C'l'.::. ,,·ill dcrrl with the defa ult0rs and d0-,troy fruit which i~ a n1cnace not only to thcln­~l'i\'f'~. but to the ('omn1uni1y.

Thr,rtJo1·e I ;;:av that this amendn1ent i~ rlc·cc"::'arv ut th0 pi·csent tin1e. In the C'our··c ot a fe\~ vears~ '·:hen the farn1ers a.rc sufli­cicmlv Pduc:1tcd. the enforcement by the Gon'I:nn1(·nt of these ptovisions will not be nPce~-- ar :. If our frnltgrowing industry is (·t:Jl'C'fu1l,V assisted, if the n1arkcting an~l pest 1 !1 oblems are attended to, there 1s no lloul1t that th0 industry, T.~rhich is partif'n1arl~ "nitable to a. subtropical or lro[Jical climate, \\ill be a lremenc!ouo asset to the counh·,-. Thr', orch~trdi;:;;ts Inust to properly organisc•d and must realise the necessity for united action.

iYith tlwso fe\: remarks, I haYe [llc:rHn·e n1 nloYing--

" That the Bill be now 1eacl a second tinw."

:Ur. :\lOO RE (J uhiyny): I ha,-e no great objection to this Bill. I recognise that it ;, ab,olutely essential to deal with the pe-ts that are n10nacing tho industry. Suf'h n cour<c has been taken in other parts of _L\ u~tra.lia. T1wn: arc one or hvo SlLall points in 1 he Bill "·hich may be criticised.

\Yhcn the Secretary for Agricultur' \\·a, ~po11ki11g vf various other pests, ,,nch as bird pc ts inirolluced by indiYidunls in an nnin­t(-ntional n1anncr. and which havo hecon:e f·0~ts in this State owing to clirnatic c'Jn­c1itic~n.s, I rf'cognl.:;e that we n1ust give rcg11·d to thP fact tlla-~.. a bird that 1nny lw a pe~t to uno industry 1nay be a usC'ful adjunct to n 1'otb0r.

Tl!r SE"HET.IRY FOR AGR!Cl:LTFRE: 0nite tnw. v\~hnt j::J on:~ rnan's llllJ.t l11a\; be a:::1otl1er !nan'" poisou. ·

'VIr. }cOO RE: Before cledroc·ing bird-, thnt TIJ.ilY bf' a rnenacc to the frnit indu,.tr-.·. WP

1'1U~t firf:.t con~ider their u~cfulness 1n ·otf1cr industrico. \Ye ha YC to be Yery careful.

I remember some little tirr.e ago there was " crv for !he destruction o£ all sorts of birds tbatw were considf'red insectivorous, but it \Vas realised that wlere they might have hewn doing· a little ·damage to one industry, the:, were of considerab-le benefit to others.

The SEC,RE1'ARY FOR AGRICC:LTURE: I think the :,·ea test can should bo taken before destroying any bi,-d.

Mr. MOO RE;: I agree with the Secretary for 0-\griculture on that point. From my experience .n1any birds arc a n1enace only at certain times of the year, when th:>ir crdinary food is scarce. and during tho rest of the year they do more good than harm.

I hope ad' ant age will not be taken in conncct;on with this measure to discriminate ben,·een different classes. A littlo while ago, \Yhen the pink boil weevil was discovered, the whole blame was placed on rdoon cotton, and, as a result, ratoon cotton was banned, as it was said that this pest bred in that class of plant. Of conr ~e, the greatest post in con­nection with our orchards is the fruit fly. I do not think it is possible to eradicate the "ruil flv. as we fmd it is going into the wild fruits in the virgin scrubs. Therefore, tlwre is no possibility of eradicating this rest, ancl the only thing is to endeavour to co;w with the fly by means of lures and othr1~ :methods.

There i.s one phase of this question that it .strike·.~ n1e is going to cause a difficulty. The :Yiinister said that, first of all, he was going; to come on the occupier, and if he could 11ot get him to do anything then he \>ouJ.cl come ·on to the ownt)r. The local authorities already have had a certain rmount of trouble ovor this question of "own('r" and ''occupier," especially in the ca•.·o of l;e_._·petunl leas£'s, because,· if the pests become ton bad, the occupier walks out. In that case ··ou have the Government left ~s the owner of the perpetual lease, and you come to ,a dead end, and before any­thing nn be done the farm gets int,o such a 'tate of disrepair that it is almost impos­sible; to clean it up, and you cannot get rrn:-·bod•· to accept the responsibility. That is one of the disadvanta.ges that we have to face in regard to the perpetual J.c,·se policy d i·he Go\'ernnlent. If the owner gets behind in his payments, he does not take very much honbl<' to keep his place clean. He walks out and leaves his farm, and the only owner :·ou crrn come on is the State, and the St.ato i:-: exentpt in all these caf:es. It is some­thin~· the Government will have to recog­ni'c. bccaw··" we ha;-o found that to be a difficulty \vith tho ordinar.v wgetablo pests, 'urh as th0 Rathur·.t burr. \Vhen the lease­hold", .. tbandons the propm·t,. the obliga­tio 1 shonld be on the State. in the ;, nnt' wnv that it 1\'ou\.d be on the private indi­Y!chtaL to clean np wlud is a rnenacc to i h · .surrounding district.

The SErHEV.RY FOH AGll!OcLTURE: The "Rmc thing ·would apply in the c~<:;c of the frc~h-e>lcl.

::\1r. ::VlOORE : In the rase of a freehold yon g-cnPrally ha\"<j n. n1ortgagce or someone to fall back on. and when you have a pN­}If'ttraJ ]('etso with the Stat~ behind it th0 ,

1 'lig·ation ~hou]cl rest on the Stat('. So · a- tlv" orcut_,ie1:- is in a pc-sition where

hr:· n goDd deal to ]o"e, \Ye cctn ~ompc1 hint h clean up his property.

Tlw SECRETIRY FOR AGRTCcL1TRE: Accord­to the law, in the case of the perpetual

the occ,upier is the owner.

JJir. lJ1 a ore.]

224 Diseases in Plants Act [AS~EJIBLY.] Amendment Bal.

Mr. ::\IOORE: Ho is the owner, but when he di,.appcars he is not the occupier, and hP i" not thP mvner. In the case of neglected orchards that han• fallen back into the hands of the Crown, I trust that the Crown \Yill take up the responsibility and see that they dv noi become a menace to adjacent 0'~ ners '<!.'hen the private individual is com­pell< d by Act of Parliament to destroy his fall0n fruit and keep his trees clean. and generally to keep his orchard up to standard for the benefit of the communitv. The CrmYil shoald be in exactly the sa;ne posi­tion that t h" fruitgrowers are being pla<eed ih. Fruitgro.vero haye been plac0d on certain areas whi.-::h theY have abandoned, as they ha\·o been unable 'to n1ake a SUC'('C'-,l of them. and the Department of Agriculture or tbP Crown should endeavour, as far a, possible, to clean up these orchards in order that thev mav not become a menace. These ncgJerte·d orchards are becoming the ;'rcatest menace to the fruitgro\ver.

The SECRETARY l'OR AGRICULTURE: Hear. hear! The Crown will be s;·mpatheti< m that regard.

Mr. MOORE: There is a great deal of trouble m regard to these neglected orchards.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTl.RE: Soldier settlements.

Mr. MOORE: Kot only soldier settle­ments, but ordinary fruitgrowing eettle­n•ents. The losses ha vo been excce<hngly heavy. a.nd I imagine it is possible in cer­tain districts to clean thPm up. jnst as has been done in t.he tick area; but I do not think it is possible to take Queensland as .a whole and clear it up, bccanse the-re arc som!' portion;; o£ the State which. through climatic and other influences, it is almost impossible to clea,r.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRTCU.TL.RE: The wild guava in the J';"orth is the greatest ITi8DaC{'.

Mr. 1100RE: I should imagine that in districts suc.h as Stantborpe it should not be a difficult matt~r, providPd the inspec­tors are keen enough and the Crown takPs tht' rc'iponsibility of cle<Lning up orchards which have been a bandor,ed.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICCLTCllE: It is difficult, but it can be ovel·come.

Mr. MOORE: It ca,n be overcome, and I have no objection to the strenuous clauses. as the Minister sa vs thev will not be used harshly. Th£re is "no do;,bt that the com1i­tions arc harsh; but 'vhen you are dealing with pests that propagate themselves practi­cally in ton daye, there is no time for delay. and it is for the benefit of the ma.n who is cndea,·ouring to make a success of his propertv that he should be protected.

Mr. CORSER (!Jurn,ctt): I will certainly wpport any Bill which has for its aim the destruction of disease' in plants. In intro­ducing the measure, th£ Niinister pointed out th<e disadvantage to growers from pests that live on our fruit trees, and which are distribute-d in our fruit throughout the State. Ho has mentioned the statements of certa,in eminent scientist&. to the effect that if ,,.,, only knew the dangere which will accrue from diseases in plants, in humans. and in stock, we "ould be aghast at the results y;·ith rega.rd to the human race. ':'\ot only arc we facr,d with a problem with regard to di··9aoe, in plant", but aho disease, in

[Jll r. Moon<.

stock. lf \\·e first passed a Bill to safcg·uard the interests oi the community--particularly f'hildr n in uur citics~<.lr~d to de:J.l \\-ith diseas£'s in stock-esllccia.ll.v in the udder of tho cow-I think we should be starting at the right end. rrhosc diseascs arc a danger to hmn!lnit_~. They arc here to-day, and have been proved a danger by scientist':. throughout the world; yet year in and year out 'f·c are continuing a condition of a.ffairs \Yhich brings about an amonnt of disease iu our children and a greater dc.·lth-rate tha!1 is lik<>lv to Jcc:'Ul' if we tak, care to guard the diliric ;:. in onr citit•", and prcYent the distribution of diseaee through thes,c channels. The 1\Iinister was quite co;·rect in "aying that most of our di.seases in plants and pesto in this StatP have been import€d. That not on!:. applies outside this House, but \;·e have it in this Honsc also. (Laugh~ ter.) \Y0 ha\-e posts feeding on the life­blood of indU'Sh'''"· the same as \Ye have them feecling on the natural products of the C'ountry. Svn1c of these pest, ha ye been imported. too-tha.t is the unfortunate part of it-and if the Government brought in a Bill lo eradicate some of those ideas and some of the individuals on whom they a,re feeding. they wonld be doing a very great dc:tl of good. As the Minister has said. "·e have to ('ncmua.gc those persons ·whon1 we mi~ht t0rn1 faddists to come to our assistance·; but that encouragement wa.s not extended to a dcceaeed friPnd of the State and of the settlers of this countrv y:ho a1·c troubled ,,-it.h pricklc·-pc"ar. T~~nfortunatcly. we did not give to Mr. Temple Clerk the assistance nnd pnrouragc1ncnt \VO ought to ha YC gi-.;;;en through onr departmental control. That gcnt1em~n ha.; now passed a.way. }caving bc,hind him a lik's work which is going to be of the greate't benefit to the sertl~rs of Queen~land, and one oi the grt·.1'test a~seh of th0 Department of Public Lands, and, thcrdorc. qf the State as a whole. Thut man did not receive any official encoura,ge­rnent. He rnct with opposition on four occa· sioEo, and whilst in this Bill we arc giving t:J inspector-, the right to eradicate noxious plant:-: anc.: insects, \VC rnust r0men1ber that not twclv€ months a.l!O the· chairman of a Royal Cm1mission appointed for the invcsligalion of the prickly-pear problem. who wa.s a scientist, visited the experimental plolc and demonstration farms of indiYicluab yy}JO WE> re pi·opagating the Dact ylopins Tomcntosu~. or C.hico coehinf'ai, and demanded th0ir extermination, tfdling those who were growing them that they would have to destroY them in the intereots of the State. Thoee ·insects were introduced, and al fin,t propagated, by the la,tc Mr. Temple ClNk. ·when w<' arc giving to inspectors extraordinar\ powers, we should not forget that an erni!10nt srientist rnadP a 1ni3take wh£11 he occnpicd t.he important position of a Royal Commi"sionPr, and vi--e must accordingly protect the growers.

An Ho::\OcllABLE :\1E}IBER : J c'alousy

:\1r. COHSER: \Vhether it was so or not. the fact shows· that thc're arc some >(rounds for tlw ;talcmcnt <loat man;, scientists are aC"tuatcd b:v a fee1lng \vhich p·oc_, so far on mr.nv occa.sjons as to lead thotn to condemn sun10thing \t:hleh n1ay be of assi;-;ta D<'C'. and tu lH'C'YPnt ~on1ebody "'"' ho is n0t a SPicntist frorn renping a reward.

:\Ir. l'OLLOCK intPrjcctcd.

:\1r. CORSER: ThP hon. m<;.mlwr pro· pagatcs a lot of it himself, but we have not

L;seas,;s m Plants Act [14 Al:'GUST.] .4mendment Bill.

:J~ow11 that eYil ~pirit~we did not put up ag-ainst hi1n or tr:· to d{'feat rha.irnw.nship of Con1n1lttees.

to the nef'cssitv for this ccrtainlv ·was enthusiastic,

the a)lpo.intment of a hrgo officers could have ]won

hi,cl this matter ]JePn dealt with set up b~, th(~ Govern­

\Y c have built Hp a. to take comwl of

fruitgrovring, through­all b. anche' of the

thriT interest" in t•Yer \ ('t ,,-( iind that this p:o110~ ~1 doe:- nr:t \'tu :1:qe fro:rn the Con1wil. If our } lcp<Hl idt .. :l!; of _-\!!,';·icnll-nrP. tlP'0\1!! h ir:::. r _;unc~: !rf ..::1!_ ·ere ahl{• t' ("'tall-li~h a :-rll'T (_•t

'y lJ)([

il l1ll':llh Hl

:-t'c_ -f(lr i nstanct'. Ly fruit ro clcJn di-_.trict-5. ancl l'Yt'n

•1c:;t~ L:· nlUills of the p~~~lin ~-'" Jr· railwa.Y carriagc~-if i1 could lo~se'" tile frlJi t.rrrO'"-cr has to

,-nf1\>r '-b individual a:;; a. -rP-:;ult of th('se practic_:c;;;, w·ndd obYiatc th(' nc(•cssit:-: for the staff of expens and staff. You have gut to cducat(' thenl in that which is to rhc·ir ach-a.ntag:e. and tlwy "ill look .after thP Ir~dustr.·; t.hcnvelvcs.

A Go TR'>}I''-:T ::\lE>IBETI: The bon. gentlc­nl::!n bu:-: ·_;,rl'at f:,ith in lnnnon nature.

:'l~r. ( ·nH.~'EP.: I han'. \\",, knuw that in the otlL'1' ~rare.", \Yhcrl' thc>y hase agricul1ural t-urt'au~ th(• burf'nll~ eduratc the growPrs con~ nPctcd \Yith the ,-Jrious rural indusaic~, \Yid1 tht• lY':Elr t hctt the gt'OIYCr~ protc<·t thenl~·~·h-cs.

The Sr'·nET.\RY FOR AGHICTL'lTRE: Dol's the hon. g ntlc1nan ~ay tl~at the bureau:: in thl' rtlwr Star<'~ haYC' no Insppctors ·~

:'\Ir. c ·oR SEE: J:\o. The lmn an' Ill tlJc 0ther Statls pl:t·ac:h the necc~..;;it~· f.or the growt>r~ protectlll'r then1s~lvt·:-:;, and 111 that \Yav tht•Y a\oid thP nccc's1ty for an ann!- of insiJccto~·~. ,,-hieh i~ a cost to the Stah'. I eannut see- anvthillg harn1fnl in the BilL but uufortun:1t.::J\-~ there has been initiated rPceutly an · extraordinar2, a busc of rC>gula­tions under the different Acts. It is to bl' hoped thar this Bill is not going to be so ~-.>verely dealt with in the \YU_\' of regula­tions 8~.., ha~ been t.hc ca:;;;e ·with a nun1ber of ag-rarian Arts that we have passed recently. \Ye kno,v that a certain Act provide,, that there ,hall l:>e an advance of £200 for 11nspc('itied pt!rposes unrlPr cprtaln C'O~Hli­tionf-!. bur \YU also kno"· that the rcgulat1ons pr·>vic!c that the applicfint n!ust set forth cPrtaill \ a1ne~ in '!UPl-'Drt of h1s application. That i~ a c•:-;:c 1vhere the regulations provide something that is abwlutely rontrar:· to the spirit of et he Act. I give that as an illustra· tion and I trust that the regulatwns under this' measure will not be drawn up in such a wav as to be absolutely contrar~· to the Art ;tself. I ag-ree that it is absolutely nsscntial to ta.ke drastic actic,n in connPction ,.·ith the fruit industry. vY,, have diseases in our orchards as well as in the fruit trees at our private homes. The fruit trees at private residences are propagating in some C'ase.-; \vcrsP- diseases than "\VC have in the orcht1nl~. a.nd even in our botanic gardens ,.." can sec quite a numb-er of disea"oes capable of spr0ading and causing trouble throughout the State. I welcome the Bill, and I only

1924-Q

r('g-n~i that it doe' not de a 1 ·with stock-and }H'~J!)alJJ.y lla.r1ian1cntarian~ too-as 1vell as di~0as0 in plant~.

Ho:-;. W. H. BAR::\ES (TT"!Jmwm): I follo\.ed the i\1ini,tor"s s]we,·h very closely. and I think even· hon. member will admit that anything· that can be done to help to prevent the fearful Jos~r·~ ihat take placP fro1n Year to vcar in this industry should be don0 b,· this Hou· •. e. Tlw Minister more Jlal'ticular(-I judge that is p6marily the object of the Bill-has in vie"· fruit culture and the protc>cting of the fruit from the cliseaS< brou~·ht about bv the flv. There F

no qLll'stion °that that ];est will be exceed· inrrly difi-icult to co1nbat. but, if it can be coinbrrtcd. then it is going to be an ;,xrellent thing for the s:ue. I cannot conceive of ~u1yt,hing ruore dcprcssing-i1 tnay be brought about oomctim('o bv the nroducer himsclf­tLan for a man "\vho gro~vs a crop of fruit to find, just as he is o.bout to send it to market, tlutt it is aJiye with insect pests. It aho has another effect--that is, from the producer's point of YiC\Y. This trouble is not onl,,~ confined i'f) Q1v:en~land, but you get it in the northern districts of Kc\Y South IV1dcs to a small extent. and I have known fruit to lean' the border after having been pa· ,eel a· perfect!: '·Ouud b,v the Govei:nmcnt agenh; at f-JtantLvrpr, and. \Yhen 1t has arrin'd in Brisbane. it has been foHJJd to be infc,tctl 1vith the fruit fl.L

The SECH~TARY FOR P1:BLIC \VORKS : It is dcprc's.-::iitf! to the con~nn1e1·.

llox. W. H. BAR::\ES : It is exceedingly depre::J~ing to both tlw c-on.,unwr and lH'O­

ducPr. It is just as bad for the man who handles it. A cei tain amount of fruit might pa ,, the inspector at the ·border, and it n1ight become necesP.lry, \Vhen it is handled here. to report to the producer that it is infest0d with the fruit fly. In that case you have to get an inspector to inspect it. so as to be• able to tell the producer that It has arriyed in a bad state. The producers then can scarcely credit it. Many people send away what is belicvNl to be absolutely good fruit. anr1 when it a,rrin:s here it is prac­hcally unsaleable and unfit for use. It may happen that retailers put it into their window for •ale. and when they put it there it is probably all right, but in a day of two it is bad. I h:ne noticed that the fruit fly is not confined to clistrictz such as Stan­thorpe. I was amazed on one occasion to find en stare! a ppll·c infested with fruit flies. I admit that it as verv late in the season, and that probably it w'as not a very. usual thing. I said a ,,hile 'Lgo that the Mmister has to deal with a Yery difficult task mdeed in trying to get at the root of this problem. I take it from his remarks that his efforts to cope with pests are not to bP confined to fruit. The fruit flv is a native of the district in which the~ fruit is grown, and is Pot entirely dependent for life HJlOn tlw huit produced by the farmer. Queensland in ~on1e directions. is up against some of the touiThest problems which it is possiblP to be up ~ ag·a inst. The Minister incidentally iouched on what Queensland has lost through the nriekly-pear pest. That loss is so very vital to QueeHSland thai any successful step that is tak011 to cope with that pest will be of i'reat benelit to Queensland. I hope that the men the Minister appoints as inspectors to do this job will haye sorr1e "nous." Men arC' sonu'tinu-':~ me~ with in the Goyernment

Hon. W. H. Barnes.]

226 Diseases in Plants Act [ASSE:\IBLY.} Amendment Bill.

~crYicc-eycn in the en1plo:v of a socialistic GoYen1ment-vvho haYe not the necessarv ·· nous" to deal • .. •ith the matter which they have in hand in a certain \Ya v. There is rmr, fear that I alwav,; have wh.en Bills like this are introclncecl. · That is the fear that vou can nPvcr tell how thev will be aclminis­rered bv the sernmts of tllc Crown who are t0 be appointed for that . purpose. I have aiw:>ys looked upon a guxl deal of this lcgi~lation as son1ething in the nature of 1 he GoYernmcnt '• digging " thcn1selvcs in. If I H rn looking for a job, to get one I ilmst be a <'npporter of the Government. All this legislation point·. as I say. in the direction of the G·oyernn1ent "digging " themselves in.

The SECRE1'ARY FOR PL:BLIC '\YoRKS: You IYcre 1_1retty alive to that at one ti1ne.

Ho--.;. '\V. H. BAH?\ES : The Secretary for Public \Vorks has been exceedingly kind r.ncl courteous-and I say this with all sin­cerity-on mattet·s in regard to which I have approached him in connection with my eh-'ctOl'Dte, but th0 information he g'ot on that matter, -yehereYel' he SOt it, is alto­u·ethcr falee. ~ :VIr. POLLOCK: He ha' foHowed '.·our own ('Xr' lllplc. ~

I-Im:. W. H. BAR::\ES: He has folJoyced !11Y exatnple?

At 11 a.m., The CH.UR:\TAX OF Co:~niiTTEES (:\Ir. G.

Pollock, (-Jn-r;ory) rdie;cd the Speaker in the Chair.

Hox. vY. H. BAR"'ES: All I can say is that. if the hon, p:entlcman ha~ diP,CoYcred anvthing· y.,-ht'n following me that was improper, he is at liberty to say \Yhat it was.

The SECHETARY FOR I'CBLTC IVORKS: 1 ne ,-et· said that.

Hox. \V. H. BAR::\ES: I merely say that, if that was tho case. thPre is a duty cast upon th hon. gentleman to let the puLlic know the circunwtanccs.

I desire to know if the Committee of Direction is going to ha Ye control under this BilL The Con1n1ittf•e is causing many farmers some degree of trouble, and I think it i•. done at the instigation of the Secretary for Agriculture. 1 >Yould like tho hon. gentleman to come clown tn my place of business some dav nnd iust have a look at the ~~count ~ulcs"' that ,;,.c arc sending out. \Ye are asked to plaste1· our aecoun'· sale~ , ·ith stamps. and I think the St,·te Agency has to do likcwis('. That i~ at the instiga~ tion of the Commit+Ac of Direction. I want to know if there i, going to be .1 further· tax in this dir0ction. ~\l_)parently the producer is rold that certain things arc going· to be done for him, and wo have the ploasm·e of explain­ing to him dav aft -r da:· thar this Govern­lP.ent lev;y·, presun1ably to ~tssist the producer. i-; bc:ing paid to hin1 -vvith one ha!:.cl and c-ollcctecl with another. I \Yant to krw·, if tl:crc is going ro be nn~v furtlwr \Yhat a \vondn·flll faci]itv the have for loading! ·

I ant to "a\~ in conclu::;ion that, if the Govcrnrnent ar0. succcssfn1 in con1bf1ting the fruit fl:-, they >Yill be doing 1 good thing for the country.

:\fr. CLA YTO?\ (1T" id' Tlrul : I think it i~ 0s~cntial that smllething ~honll1 be done to attc1!1pt to do U\vay \Yith the trc1n0ndous loss caused ~.~car after year in the orchards

[Hon. W. H. Barnes.

of Queensland. I have been in orchards where at least 50 per cent. of the fruit produced has been unfit for market. That causes a lot of expense. A man has to keep his orchard in a fine state of cultiva­tion, and then, at a time when his fruit is ready to go on the market, hJ finds it destroyed by pests.

The Gov0rnment are undertaking a tremen­dous task if they are to be successful in the elimination of these pcots. If this Bill is to be efl'ectiYC', it will be necessary h haYe largo bodies of inspectors. Hecentl_,. in the Gvmpic district we found it nccessarv to ask fo.r an inspector from the Depart;;w!lt of z\..gricultnre and Stof'k to E,'O out and inYt'Eti­gate a disease that has broken out in the banana industry. I speak of banana rust. \Ye appealed to Mr. Benson to send a man along, but he told us that no man was a;-ail­able then and it was probable that none would be aYailable for two months. We therefore decided to tr~- and cope with the pest and to get a know ledge of it, as the Department, of .Agriculture and Stock had no knowledge whatever, apart from that possessed by the entomologist: and three or four local inspectors went round the orchards. The hon. member for Burnctt said that the Council of Agriculture should take the matter ovL'r, bnt the gro\VOl'~ resent men fror~.,_ their Q\Yll associations going out into the orc·hards and acting as honorary inspectors, bcca use they considPr that these men have not mffi­cirnt kno\dedgP. On eYory occasion they duire to take the matter to a higher court and get an inspector from the Department to pass judg·ment on their orchards.

Only this morning I received a lett r from the local Producprs' A.ssociat.ion in 1ny electorate saying that loeJ.l inspector" had been visiting some of the orchards and had declared that certain orchards wore infested lw banana rust. TheY have asked me to move in th~ matter ancf to haYo an entomolo­gist sent up to proYe >vhether or not those orchards are infested. I do not think it wi-o fm· the Committee of Direction to take on these inspector~ permanently. think the trouble '-hould be declt with men tvho have @;iven consideration to the que . ..:tion, arod who are srent out hy the Department of Ag-riculture and Stock. I have not the slight<'st doubt that that is the intention of the Department.

The Secretary for Ag-riculture said that it was the dutv of the Crown to deal with the eradi, atiou· oi p:'sts in deserted orchards. If tlw Gm·crnnwnt do that. I think the· haYe a trenwndous task ahead of them. · :\Ianv holdings ha,-c reverted to the Crown, and i: think it will bo nccessar~~ for a big ..san~: of men to be put on and for a < arcfnl ir:;spcction to be made of th< s0 old orchards if to erndicate Hw vests that have !wen to get a hold.

ThPre if; another pest that \Y(' have in the Gympic district. which \Yill rH d ' large hod:, of impcctors to rloal ,,-ith if it is to h·., cradicatod. I S!JCctk of a plant Y hich h0ars a ver:v popular fruit, lJ('rr~~- ErP:h .:car ('ape corue up ;:,ll OYf'l" t1:c' Gyn,pic ~rruh h:nd, and v:hPn

cor-uc- to the riprning a ~J:rtB th(• fruit an cl df ·_,trovs i::.- rnlv fr," ts come that the 'rrn1b i> i ~n~l

it 1.~ poso:iblr> t0 g{•t- nn'y fruit ft·om th( ··-o tnT"S nf land. Tt is onlT- th1·on;.::l: thn

r:f r::atnrc ihat. \'.f' ·Q-c't HI:_'>- capo Dt alL The craclieation ~ueh

Diseasts in Plams Act [14 Acm;sT.] Amendment Bill.

pests, which have been unchecked fer vcars will be a tremendous task. Those areas ar~ not touched for six months at a time by the fan11ers.

I trust that some good will come from this legislation, and that the insuectors will not be too harsh on many of the settlers, who are havmg such a bad time at present. I hope that the Government will realise that th~s is not so much paper; that they will bnng about certain conditions that will allow the farmers to market their fruit in first-class condition.

}lr. NOTT (Stanlcy) : I welcome this mea­wre as one that will give the Department of ~.\gr1culture and Stock greater facilities to control m~tters and tighten up the legis­latwn that IS already on the statute-book. \Yhen this Bill is passed it will do no good IE Itself. My concern, especially since the present Governm.ent came into po,ver, is not altogether the B11ls that we arc getting, but the manner IS whtch thev arc administered. It does not matter what Bill we pass in this House, unless it is administered to some purpose and in a com1non-sense and just manner it will necessarily be a failure. I believe the necf!ssity for this Bill exists. The Department of Agriculture and Stock has great powers, and it is onlv through lack of administration that the me'asures at pre­sent in force have not been of greater use to the farmers of Queensland. Prickly-pear and nutg-rass have been referred to as pests, and we know Yery well that parasites for the destruction of thes-e pests were known mam· years ago. A parasite w.as introduced from another country for the dc,truction of the prickly-pear pest, while a natural parasite was f?ur,d that would destroy nutgrass, but yery uttle use has been made of these para­sites. As a matter of fact, the department acted Yery harshlv towards the man who was atten1pting to destroy pricklv-pear bv meam of the parasite introduc-~d. On!}· a fe\; :V('>Ir:-: ago th:• late ~lr. F. ~Ian~o;l Bailey, then Queensland Government Botanist, explained that for an expenditure of less than £1.000 it \\Ould be possible to completelv eradicate the Noogoora burr, but the Govern­ment who were in power at that time refused to make the money av.1ilable. I am sure most members in this Chamber know what a pest the Noogoora. burr has become, and the amount of damage it does, 0spccially to river­bank lands. at the present time. Just to illustrate the failure of the Administration :o make fqll use of the po\\·er that they have 111 the m":tter of the -destruction of pests. I \\ oulcl like io refer to the potato blight (!i:-;ease that vve haYe cxperiencccl for sorrw year:·. In seine ca&es the farmer does not know his potatoes arc badly infected when thC'Y leave the farm. but when thev arrive <tt ·the marlwt they· are found to 'be very badly mf.cctecl .and unfit for human concump­non. The unfortunilto thing then is that, imteacl of the potatoes being destroyed or utili:-cd. to son1c adYantage by being con­vertPcl m to alcohol .at a place convenient to the markets, th0se diseased potato0s are sent back on the railwav to the .district in which the..:~ \Ycre gro\\Tn. L That svstem has been ~·oi11g: on for quite a lonrr ~ ti1n.e and it is qnit; time something was ~lone t~ alter that condition of affairs.

There is no doubt that, as socn as this Dill is pa.ss,d, quite a nnmber of appoint­ment.; "-ill br.• made~ by the Department of Agricultme. .nd there is a doubt in mv mind as to who is going to administ-er the

Act. At the present time we have the Department of Agriculture, and we have the Council of Agriculture, and the position should be made quite clear as to which is to control legislation such .as this. If the officers of the Department of ~\griculture and inspectors geuerally are tc be controlled by the Council of Agriculture, the sooner an arrangement is n1ado whereby the adn1inis­t,cttion of these Acts will be placed definitely under the control of the Council of Agn­culture the better. It is not conducive to the best work for the officers of the Council of Agriculture or for the officers of the Department cf Agriculture to be placed in such a position that they do not know <xactly where they are and what their powers arP.

A great deal of benefit would accrue to th~ farmer" generally if the Department of Agriculture were to do a little more in regard to educational matters. By educa­tional mattLI·s. I refer to the businecs end or the £ s. d. as .affecting the farmers. Lately we have had the appointment of a p1g expert.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order:

Mr. NOTT : I am using this by way of illustration. Recently this pig expert gaYe a very interesting lecture in regard to the breeding of pigs, but he said nothing to the farmers as to the best way of fattening the pig in order to get the best £ s. d. results. If the department's officers were to p,ay a little more attention to the £ s. d. part of the business, the farmers would receive considerably more benefit.

I hope that when thi,s Bill '' oas,C'd good use will be made of it, and that the :Minister will see that it is administered in such a way that there will he no questicn of its becoming a dead letter.

Mr. G. P. DARKES (Warwicl.·): There can be no doubt abou~. file nccessjtv fo1· n, Dill of this description. The' real ,.;.ux will come 'xhcn tho Bill is being adrninistcred, for it is quite evident that in the po'"'Cl' g'ivcn to inspectms under the Bill some in·a.tional <·onduct nl.aY have a very f'.Crions cff<":'t l1pon ntanv uf tJJC orchardi"ts dirPcth~ conc"rncd. ~Ten' are r~ot ahvays ~\Yis0, and I know. even without a Bill of this description. there have been occasions when inspectors ha.ye entered or<'hards nnd in the mo:::t perd11ptor.Y fa.-:hion LLYC giYcu instruction regarding diff,:_-rent 111atters, flnd if they are fortified wit!t the J 1wers '.·iyen under this Bill-whir-h. 110

doubt, the House \\'ill pas,-it I'' quite poseiblc that that dieposition on tile part of c rtain illtipcctors ,.,,ill not be k 'J"·C'llC( ..

\Yhilc it ls hope-cl to 0radicatc th0 numc1·on-: pests in Queensland. I take it tlwt Bill i.s introduced more dircdh· tn the dPpartmenl to cOJW with tl.c pest. It sccn1s to n1c tHat in the attc1npt 110'· · bo1ng n_ado \Fe .,:-.ro fort"ctting altogcthl~r that the n:al source of infection lies not in the orchard it-elf bnt in tho native tr,·e.s adj,tcent to the orchard, ecpecially the natiYe fi~· tre<'. \'\hen I was at Daheen a few W0·cks a<ro this Ycry n1ntt0r was being discussed. \\"h~'1'C ,,-c are dealing IYith orC'hrtrds, nnd lll''Jba b]v condcrnning peat l1 trees aDd othe1~ rhing;, wo forget that \Yithin a 1nile Dr f\Yrl the ~1atiYe fig i.l'eo is gro"-ing. and is d]<:<cJninat­mg the pe.'t right and left. It 1hat we: ~1flY(' to go 1ridc·r even crcharchsJ. and that there should lJ · areas crcatc'd before we allow a llEU1 r( :-:-tart

Mr. G. P. Ban:es.)

2~8 Appren'iceship Bill. [ASSK\IBLY.] Apprenticeship Bi!l.

'"' orcharJ. I undcr3tand that ihe fruit fly doP~ not traYcl an"\ Ycry great dist!J.,llCC. sO that it 1:1ig·ht be possible. by regulation of S\.~ll.lP ki11d or b.'' some inflnPncc, to deter a

frotu attc-mptin., to ~tart an orchard nl~L\ be .adjDcent either to prickly-pear

or to LatiYc• fig '._·ccs. and rcrtalnl?- such a cour~l is nb)--olutr-1~· nerl'"sarY. othc1·~.\·i~e the 111H0f'l'l1t crchardiSt has no u control bc~·ond the f:) 1.ll' C'Ol'llC'l' • cf hi;;., O\Yll orchard, an~l he ll!U)' be e:-tllccl upon to suffer to an alanning

xt 'lli. TlH' ]lf.~t. no doubt. j.:;, thriYing in ille J!l'ickly-pc:n· b_nd \Yhich sulTuutH.l:'l us~ alnH)·~t <··:er,·wlll'l'e. It thC'l"cfore ~ecrH~ to n1c that

\\·j e for tlw GoYcrnnlPnt to cxerci~e \Yhieh the·. onlv ( ·tn r~o in

l>ith the , 'of thin2·' of The )Iini~h·r JP-~" c son-'cthing

rnind rcgardiug th'C lH't 1cl of thl' i!Ttit fly upoH the llflti,-e fruit-Lcnring 11'C'-". At any :~·ate. it is a.b-:olnh_•h· csst'ntial that ::-nnH' action shonlLl be takci1 in coH!lPrtion 1vith this '''!lCct of thin6,.

Of there arc othc'r pc'i' 1 r1o not the frnit,fiy pc t y introclucpd the StatP. I bclie1·e tnat it is

a natiYe of the soil. I remember quite fifl1 ,V0ar:'- ago in T1oowonn1La, before "-e r0alisc~t that the fruit fly \\as thL' can'<~ cf infection, t!.at the fruit. was cxcceding·h- bad. You c·uuJd not i .-tke a pca.ch Or a fjg, in those cJa \-s without finding it full of life. and it is qni'te '' Lllacy lO think that it is of latter,daY iiJtrocluction. I Ylou]d like to kno\\- v:hcthe'r l he ~\Iinistcr has c;i \Pll "nv thou' ht to the diHi{'ult.'." which thP orC'ha~·dist i~ in fron1 the het that he is threatened, not from his lJ'_'ig-iJbotn·s~and sometin1es thPY .are bad eno,agh througl.l neglect iu attentfing to their CIJ enard~·-but f~·on1 the great area of ·prickly­pt'<1l' ,a: l natn-e trees 1-\ hi eh n1a v exist a.dj accn: to his holding. ~ -

Quc,tion-That the Bill be now road a su·u11ti 1in1e-put and passed.

The conoidcration of the Bill in Com, 1nittr was made an Order of the Day for tO-lllOlTO,Y.

),PPRE:'\'liCESHTl' BILL.

SECOXD READIXG.

The SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC \YORKS (HoE. \Y. Forgan Smith. Jfar·key): The Importance of apprenticeship to Queens, hnd is something that cannot be oYeresti, mated. and it is the intention of this Bill to plac0 the training of skilled artisans in this Sta tc on a~ :definite and permanent basis. Appre_nt1ce~h1p as a s: stein is something that Jtas a very wide and YCrY Yaluable ~1istor:~,. and it has come into iwon1inence I~ Qnecnsland, Australia. and '.1rious por­tions. of. the world lai,cly, owing to thr, scal'rity 111 some cases of skilled 1nen. a.nd owin? to the r<'alisation of the importance of techmcal knowledge in connection with !llC nl<~intenance and f'arrying on of our mdustnes. In Queensland there has been a scarcity felt from time to time of skilled labour in certain industries. Certain con­clusions have been drawn from that and ceria in statcn1ents have bcPn made 'attri~ buting various causes to it. all of 1vhich arc prett;c well beside the point. T,l,e fact: is that in the developmt>nt of Queensland there have been trades for which there was no special demand. \Ye ha.ve, for example, at th<' present time in Brisbane a scarcitv of Bi,onemasons. You f'annot blame the indus· try for that scarcity. simply because of thu

[Mr. G. P. Barnes.

fact that there has been no dcrnnncl in vcan past, or at least there ha.s only bcf'n a!l Of'casional dcn1and for men highly tr~tincd and skilled in that industry; but !Jl'cat\'\' the Trcacury Building, the Town Hall. and Yarious other buildings arc being NPCt~<l of frccstorw, a den1and has no\7 ncenwd for that class of skilled tradesmen. and the number of rncn available is limited. with the result that the work cannot be pro, ceeded with "·ith t.hat degree of speed which those ·who are erecting those buildings \YOulCL like to se£'.

The historv of .the origin and grmvth ,q1]ll'PntiC"l ,hi'p IS Jnt.erc t1ng It r_:;cuerally aiiiSUll1Cd that a-lli1l'C'ntice~hip lt3 origin in th,; EurOflULll and Englic,h tO\Yn.-:. and cities of the past-that, in effect. it i::l a product of \vhat is known as tlw craft guild system; but it is rnuch earlier than that. A]lprcuticeship originated far f'uliPr than is ('0l111110JJh- supposed. rrhc popnla.r bel:ef i~ that it. Q\YCS it-; inc<>ption to th handier aft~ of the n1edi<l:'-vcl :Euro11ean town. crYstallisin£; in the regulati0n of crafr gtiilds. As a n1attcr of fact, the history of apprcnticc'ship begins much earlif'r. TlH" Babvlonian Code of Ha.mmurabi (2100 n.c.: n.:cogniscd a.nd regulated apprenticeship, a-3 ;, shown bv the htw that-

" If ~n arti-:.an take a son for adop­tion and teach hin1 hi'5 handicraft. on;· may not bi·ing claim agajnst hi1n. If he do not teach him his hanclicnJt, that adopted cron ma· return to his fatlwr"s house."

Th.i, 1wovcs that arJprcnticcship ,,-a::- C\ eE then in an aJvanccd statr of dcvclopn1f'nr. and had probably existed for a considerable ]JCriod of time. It appca.rs also that the status of ma~tPr and apprentif'e was that of father and son. Among the Greeks cxi,rted a system of apprenticeship. and also nnder the Roman F.mpire. The celebrated Statnte of ~\rtificers. which was pa.,,p.c] ;n England in 1562. is the real starting point of apprenticPship. so far ac; the 13ritish Empire is concerned. and that la\\' in itself ,.-as merely thn codifiC'ation of practic0s that Tere rce{ulatecl at tlie time by tlw cl·a.ft guilds. The law \'.~as amplified and extended ~luring Queen Elizabeth's reign. with t!H result that in the early part of British history there \\Ta.s built up a systcn1 of training bovs. which enabled them to ta.kc contra! of'the industrie', of the world at that time. Tt wa.6 due entirely to the high training of the boYs who were to become the futm·p artisans of Great Britain that that countrv became the great manufacturing and export, ing caunlry that it became in due coul'."f'. I mention thosp facts to indicate the impor, tancP of a subject ouch as this.

\Ve in Queensland belieYe in our State. \V c realise its YNY great possihi!iti'.'e, and that Australia generally is destined to plav a Ycry important part in th.e commotnYealth of nations ; a.nd if we arc to play that part properly and occupy the place that right, fully belongs to us. we must train our boys Olirseh-ef; in trades "\vhich arc necessarv to carrv on our industries in Australia. ~ anc1 produce articles that w!ll find ready sale both in Australia and elsewhere.

The scarcity of artisans in ,,arious trades h~'. been met in various wavs. South Aus, tmlia, I understand, has endeavoured to

import them, .and a proposal of [11.30 a.m.] that kind was also made to the

La,vsor.~ GoYcrnmcnt in \ 7 ictoria. During the last three years we ha Ye been

Apprenticeship Bill. [14 AUGUST.] Apprenticeship Bill. 229

nwking efforts to lay down a i'ochcuw such a.s '.YE' hayc under discussion at the present tin1c. South Australia has an Apprcuticl'ship _let. ·· bich pro ides for the compulsory training nf ~l pprcntic0-; under certain conditions and a svstt_'ll1 of indentures. \Y cstcrn ~-\ustralia. and Ta~~Ilania haYL' interested th 'DlSeh-cs in our Uw.::cnsland schcn1e. and propose taking n~dic,n in a siruilar ·direction, and this morn­i!1£T I have had inquiries fron1 "\ ictoria \Yith J\:·~ard to the same matter. In :'\ew South \\-ales the control of apprenticeship i-. yestod ~l! the Board of Trade, \Yho haye protnul­:retcd n_;o·LdationR governin0· that class of Gtbour. ln New Zealand an _\et came into o 1)f>ration in i1.pril of this ~,-t·.1r, which v;as bnscd Yery la.rgcl} on the rL'gulations under v·hich we have been working in Queen~land :er rho pact year. the only difference being that ther" full control is g-iyen to the . '- rbitration Court, \vhereas undCr t.ht" Queens­laBel regulations and under this Bill also certain powers are given to the Industrial Arbitration Court. and other po<rcrs of ~·(hninistration are vested in the Seeretarv f,n Public \Vorln_ ,

The fir·.t actiYitv in this mai tcr. so far t:-; thC' G·overnnwllt were couccrn0d, was

: tJanifcsted in Queensland in 1912-14 by the ..:\dtninistJ .:ttion then in power. They realised 1he :necessity of giviug our boys the opfJor­tunity to learn trades, and so introduced a ·vsteln of trade scholarships, wh0reby those \'. ~10 gained tbCin would be trained in handi­( rafts at technical colleges, instead of taking up commercial wbjects. a' had been the 1 )ntc-ricc under the other sv~h:.-1n of ~1\.holal'­~hi ps. Such a scholar .hip· was held for a 1'C'rio(l of t\VO yern::i, the boys being selt'cted l1y cxa1nination, and during that tin1e they 1 L·eivt'd n general training, particularly in 1 ~le use of tools.

It is well known to th0se pcreons \\ho haye i" :c,.tigated the wbjcct that, y,-hilst tc·ehnical ('Ollcgcs are fairl~· yaluul1lo and a neccssa·ry complementary part of th0 training of n rprenticcs, nobody will seriousl:.· argue that n·t;sans can be producc'd by technical colleges a ;one. In other words. the technical ,_·allege at be 't can lay down th0 principles on -,Yhich \~ orko;;hop practice is La sed; and any ;;y::-ten1 of appr~·nticcship to be h:neficial and n10et llcoe needs of industr0 must proyicle also for training in the workshoo a< well as in the technical college, where su,,h is rwailable. The old relationship that C\Xistecl betwr'en the employer and the ap)ll'Pntice in the cla0 , of the craft guilds to which I lune referred i,, <t relationship the importance of which can­not be o\·cr-ek,tinlated. I say definitelv that unde1· a system where en~ployen· take a r·ersonal interest in their apprentices and give then1 facilities for learning tbeir tradl's properly. if the boys h3Ye anything in them n t all, their success as tradC'sn1en is assured. Consequently, under the scheme which wo are novv discussing, we have aimed at ~ecur­inv-and I think haYc sccurccl-thc intelli­a:ent co-op"r" tion not only of the educational authncitie;;<, but also of the cn1plo:;.ees' lHJ.ions ar d the employers' asf'ociations in the variouR trades and callings_ Th< method in existence ne'' has been a distinct RlH'ce~s, a.nd I a:n sarisfwd ·hill give Yory good l'Csults in the future. It was begun under ,regulations \1·hich were drafted nnd<T the Technical l<"ducation Act and through the Arbitration Court, and set up a s:: sten1 of eornn1ittc2s "\Yho ccntrollccl apprentic<'ship. Those commit tc<'s enntprised ~qual number& of en1ploye1·s ancl rcpn:sentahvcs of ernployces' unions, and

were called upon to aclminish'r the lald dowu at that tinlE'. in accordan C'

the U\\ ards of the Arbitration Court_ They prescribed certain entrance exan1inations for 1 he bovs who \vished to learn tradt's. tlwy inteni~wecl the bO\·s. and allocated them to the Yariou~ gTotq)s of industries. ~Yhilst rrogreE'3 was rnade under that_ systen1: 1t \Yas felt that son.ething was wantmg, anct. when tlw amendment of the Industrial Arbitration Act was made in the last session of Parlia­nJcnt, power v:as taken to issue 'regulations lcn:ing· do-,nl a systern of control of a11prentice­sl;ip ~throughout rh0 State. Latf>r on. C-?111-

prt'hcnsiYe rcgulaJionc. were dra ftPd lutving 1Lnt object in Yiew. Those regulation~ \Yen: c rcfnllv considered bv c-onfeiTlH't' of udnratiOnal e:xp0rts. r rnployer··, e-m-lJloyecs. anr1, wil"l1 a fC'\ n1odifi( .and the cmbodin1ent of some of the ~up;gc..-:tion;-; mu de by that conference, · .. ,·ere finally gazcttecl nud haYc been in operation fo-r approxi­mate1v a year. The,- haYc proved to be so :~nrct".;;~ful that the (j.ovcrnnlent consider it desirable to ernbod; :-heir 111ain principles in a statute f'O as to l:Lake thcrn th~) pernL1.nent hw of the State.

In this connection. I wi.;.h to pn v +-ribnt,~ t'J the oaiccrs \\-hO a.s.siHed lllP ill the drafting of thosC' rC'gula tio11.-:. I ? Hudo l~~ni< ll1ar1: to the cha.irman of t11C' ..:\pprell· ticcship Executive. 2\Ir. Hall: to th" .:\Ir. Thon1psm1: to ~1r. Lyon~. , .. -ho \Yas that time senior clerk in the Department of Public \Yorb; to J\Ir. \Vearne, Principal of the Contra! Technical College; and to manv other officers of the Deparrment of Public Instrudion. They have rendered 1ne ycrv Yalaub]c ae3istancc. and ha.Ye been ur1tiring in the interest they have displayed in the training of the boys. It \Vonld be yery profitable for hon. mcmbc1:s nud for ihc public genE.t'a.l]y to paY a YI~lt t·) thP. apnrcntiec-"'hip ('la~'{ .":i in Bri ... burH'. Over 701 Lo\·s a. re rccPi ring in:<trnctio11 at tbe apprentiCec.:.hip cla:.,.:f's Bri'3bane n 1ont·. a11 enga'-4·rd in learning varj?u . ..; n 'Hl~·~ \Yith enlp!c,yers 1n tlH' rnctropohtm1 r0:_l.

Yisito-r~ to the Exhibition ll v ha-..:r> .:: ':I

~<Jnlcthing· of their \Yorl\:. l'~c·,tcnl::t:· n:rn·:""!­ing I .,-isited the exhibit of tlw C<·;n-;" 1 T0('hnical Coll0ge, ar.d got :;:o- ~' H1( .J nt trH .... \\<n·k tlu~Y wPrc· doing. c111d J v ~~ Yf'r-·

)•!n>ced to note the a'\10\lllt of int0r -t ihe 1,nbli~ wer() taking in th t i!I~1 !tution. ThP..;c a.re facts that cannot be too kno\.·-11 in the con1n1unih· ancl rhe d!CC' ('f ''hi eh cunnot , be Tbe Lla.chinerv which ]::; bejilf.t usf'd on: tLt- L r the n1ost 'pnrt has been loa.ncd b:v p·:ginf'"ring· (".Jmpanlcs. ~ehc cn.~inccr o~ on:· cf the flrms, \vhon1 I Dlt't :.Pstcrda\· an 1 t·: whom I com-evC'd ±he tl•anks of the for lend.ing us that nlachjiiCr~·. ~aid that firm was only too plcoo.cd to do nncl la' added that he cong-ratulated tlu• land Go·,,ernlnent n ..... pon ha.Yinf! enough to ·do ~on1ctbing" whi/·h \\ n~ 11C'C_'-~ .r~­in all the State3 of the Com11o,nn<1lth. Th>:t r.cnt]ernnn was a representatiYc of a S'Jllthcru firm. In other \Yord~. we laying do\YD

a ~v~tcm. nnd building up ~L or t . : :];;!..!,'

\Yhich other States in the· Conun:-Jll\':r>:l:t;l [tR \Yell, J)EThap-:.. a-; other countrin:' tb) \" orld. will soo1:1cr or later no do,- ht ,, . 1 he bo~vs ~ ngagt>d there art' forn1 of inst·ruction, and it 1~ that will continu0 (h:rin~.t a definit0

L:ndcr the Dill the Arbitration Conrt i Yr:--tccl -,> ith the pO\YE'T to set out the propor­tion of apprentices to jour11c:nnen, and to

Hon. TV. Forgan Smith.]

"230 App1·enticeship Bill. [ASSE:\IBLY.] Apprenticeship Bill.

fix \\·age~ and the gPneral conditions of labour. The :\Iinisrcr, through and acting on the advice of the Apprenticeship Committc<'. Y.-ill prc•scribe the form of training which the bov~ ~hall r0l'eive at the technical institutes nn~i the tin1c that thev shall attend snrh ela~::('s. Th~ .Apprcntice~--hip Ex(•cutiYP i~ to be compos :d of reprcS('nt.ativcs of the Trndt~:-. nnd LaLour Council. of the En1plo~·er~' Fede­ration. cf the Group Apprcnti,··c::hip Cow~ L1ittf'l'~, and rPprcscntativr>s notninated by j he :\Tinistc1·. The nnious trades an cl calling.·,

':(To up cc·mrnittecs to control 1 h-: trildf's, :-:) that \\"C ~lnll ha-.,·r·

fonn of intern<Ll roni.rol bv thos,: s 1l cifirall· {·oncf'rL'.'cl thn partit ula'r indtL,tr:v and b~; those d to L~ ~~~ do,yn the f orn1 of

i~ a -;un1cd to be ncce~sary in boy·. The Bill. aLo prm:id,"

g<un ~~ ccrt Dl P' 1·1_·:·~,ra

an annual C'xnn1in::ttion. thc11 ~~ Lndard of dflcienc\ i] l;·-· the boy:s' \Yagcs being increas\~d

Cf'nL That i~ tiJ :;:av, the boYs who th, trch· i'"'al colleges ~,nd who ·n:-rr-7YP

-1· r nt. or 1norc• in thP PXa:minatiDll') trdcd fDr thc1r induf'h'Y ;:p;d ~kill

higher rate of wa'ro· . ..;_ 'That on tlw ground tl1nt a bn~·

a n1orc ,·aluab](1 worker, tntJ cul: . .;:·•-nnen1 1s nh1e to do n1orc :irnporiant \York. It iE JHOYidcd that the committees will ~et dL~ cxarnination. and that a certi-ficate will be granted to those boy J who pass that e:xamin ,tion. and such certifiote will be !·eg-arJcd .a, the hall mark of tradesmanship in that particular trade or calling. They will be eagcri.v Eought after. and I am satisfied that in time to come much bcncfit will result. The >clwme will be compulsory within the rnetrO]JO!itan area, '"hich i1·cludes the citv of Ipswich. That is done because there' are greatt'r DP!JOrtunities for learning skilled tradt:s 11t're than in other parts of Queens~ land. Po\Yer is given b;., Order in Council j o e'<:t(•nJ the vchole or pari; of the svsiem to any other part of the State. Ap];lications hayo br,·n anproYc·d frmn Too\·1·oon1ba, 1\Iar:·­horon~h. Gympie. Hockhampton, Bundaberg, l\1ackay. To,ynsvillc. and Charters Towers, and it i anti··ipatcd that within verv short period of time the svstem laid do\\·n herp will becon1c 1l thn;ughout the State. In the rlistrids which I have alluded advisorv con1n1 i ttc,cs \vi ll be appointed. consisting 0-f ('lllplo'"7 Prs' rcprcs('ntative"'• and employees' r<:>'>l'('-:entntin_-.:, ·with a chairman noJninatecl h,: the .Minisrcr. Those bodies will act as adYisor.v e:ornn1ittce-, and Lake an actiye interr·-;;t 1n thC' training of boys and the seeing to it that effective steps are taken in the dir0rtio:n of giving the boys proper training.

Th<·rc' ic a!'"' power in the Bill to deal wit11 pc·ople ho will not train apprenhcc'· "t all. TherL· nrc a. f~:'v ernployers in QtieC>nsland '';ho hccve no apprenticm at all. but who haYe facilities for jh<: adeQuate training of boys. It is a responsibility on anyone engaged in indmtr.v to sec that boyJ are given a training in that industry so that the future require· mrnl' of the industrv "·ill be assured. \Yhcre cmplo~·crs are not e.:nploying any apprentices <1 t aJ L or w hen• t hc~y have not their proper quoh of apprentices. the Minister will have pnwc1· to move the Arbitration Court to uake ·.d1 investigation into the facts of the casP. and the court mav make such order n~ the rircurnstance.;; of tl1G case mav den1and. I consider that to be a very val{lable pro­vision. It is nPcessary, but I hope it will not he found necessary to put it into opera,

[Hon. W. Porgan Smith.

tion. I think that if the scheme becomes properly undm·stood, it will secure the sup­port of all right.thinkicg men in the com· munitv, and that no one will attempt to evade 'his obligations in that respect.

Po"·er is given in the Bill to see that boys recci,~e a certain amount of training during the cl a"· Under the regulations, in some trades 'anJ callings boys must be sent to a t0chnical college one afternoon a fortnight. In certain directions some objection has bAen taken to that. but I am satisfied that that objection will· dis,cppeu with e:xpericnc~. It is a syst.em that has been in operation volun­tn ril:v in so1ne industries for n1any year~, particularly in the printing industry, and. when employers realise the advantage of the increased knowledge• that the buys obtain b.' such instruction, objections of that kind will disappear.

I think I have covered the main principles of the Bill. The desirability of a proper sc'!Hc>me is one that ea nnot be argued against. I believe the Bill is based on sound principles. I believe thD t the scheme in operation '"ill be of gr-.!nt adyantage to lndustries in Quecn~­land, nncl that under this system boys will have an opportnnity-which they have not had before-of learning trades properly.

\Vlwn the Dill was bcfow the House during the initiation stazP-; sornc reference \Yas n1r ck to tho ex<)rninations that an~ to be prc:-:cribed unJer the regulations. Some peo"lc hold that exarnjnrdions are not nccpssary, and that the"~ n1ay in1posc nn undne hardship on the bo:y::-: ronccrnl'd. 1Jnder this sc1H~nlc, no entrance 0xamination i::; prescribed. but it iE~ laid down that a boy \Yho regi;;ter<; --c,,-ith a y}ew to beromjng an apprentice :n:ll1A present a certi­ficate from the head tnaeher of the school "·horr' lw has been edun ted. showing a certain standard of education. That is ncces · ~tt-ry, borau~~ hy that n1eans vve ctn obtain a knowledge of the direction in which train· ing ls still required. For C'X<:Unplc, if u hoy has had a good training rrt school. or hn s attended a grannnar SC'hool, he natural1~· is more adyaneed than a bov who ha' not had f'urh facilities. and ronscqllcnth- we can n1n.ke np that defi<'iency in the training proYidcd by tho Technical College.

At 11.48 a.m.,

The SPL\KER resumed the chair.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC \YOR KS: I personally h0lieYe that. while cxan1inations do not always indicate any high standard o£ intel!igcnc 1 • they can be regarded a.;; a true t("'-t of indust1·y ancl pcl'"l'VC'ranc Th~-~­are n. 'essarv to indicate the athmtion that llo,-:-; hnYL' 'tK'Pn paying to th0ir fonu o: jnstruction. and nrc necc:;:·' arv to ~ho .. w the progress that has been mad<'.'

I bc!ic·e this Bill will secure the support of the gr~neral public and those concern<,d in the solution of the apprenticc.hip problem. I beliPve it will be the mcan.s of trainmg our o'Yll fnturc- net;san:~ for Queensland. That. in itsr•lf is a. VOl'!' dP"irable thing. 'Where the Que0mland J)oy gets jho opportunities and the facilities to learn a trade properly he 1Y'COlll2'~ a tradcsn1an ~ef'ond to n<Jne frorn anv other part of the world. \Ve have the ra~Y material here. and thev onlv want the opportunity to ha,·e acc<:oS to the spec:ial training. This Bill provides that .oppor­tunity, lays dmvn a system of trammg on sound linos, and provides protection for the

Apprenticeship Bill. [li AUGUST.] 231

Loy.s ·.-·dlo arc coYcred by the schcn1e. I haYo plc,tsi.H~' in nloving-

"' That t 11e Bill be now read a second time."

Ho:;otmABLE },1E1IBERS: Hear, boar !

}\h. KERR (Bnoggcra): I must franklv wknv· icdioe that, after perusing the J3ill, "]: was ·ccr,v- disappointed. indeed. Tho Bill is not ;·oing to rueel: thC requirement--. of the npprc•rJticcship problem. First of all, it Inakt•, proYision for too ~nany authoritic~. TlH~ l;r::t .nnthority is the }linister. who iB dotLcd \Yith vast no-,ccr... The next autho­rity i• the Director of Labour. He has some fur1cti-J1l to tJcrforrn in co11ncctiDn with the BilL JCn:t hayo the authorih· of the

of tho Apprenticeship Committee, \YO hn.\ c the oYcrriding authorit

Industrial Arbitration Court.

-of thC' main princiDlc-. that .:Jwuld haYt' h·'Pn ~et out in d(~~tling wilh this in1pm, _t.nt question \Ya:3 that the executive

Apprenticeship Committee should the '\Yhole rnatu~r. Ii. :.) a tnatier too

to di·'~ -ect and gt \"? different in functions to pPnontt. The

frn· .a11 (':X_(~cutiYc. "\Yhich i..:t to co1nposcd of Yarious ,elected

. o.f ~'!nploycrs and employ{~f':~ '" the- lJOd; that should control the

11 bole ~rhcn1e. r_rhe Bill is too much in the 'I i r. The rtne·1 ion of age has not been ,~cflu0d, neither haYe the clucrtions of -.,yagcs er un:ditions.

Th~ SECIU:T,RY FOR P--c~nLIC \\'"onxs: ..c~.ge ]-. clt'lin· .1 in the Rill.

Mr. T(ERR: The J'.Iiniste1· forgot to tell i he Hen c rhnt the rc•gulation proYidPs for .<:1 JJtiJ·i·J:-t .t agl' of fourteen ve<::.r5 and a. Hla ~lllH!rn a·__,.e of t\Vf'nty-one. , This Bill,

l'_:pJrr1~ation fron1 the }Iini~~ter. th 1J minimu1n .age of fourtcrm

when the Bill reacht the {:on:!!:rJ;tt:~(~ stap;c he will P'ive sotnc rca5:on for that orni[ ·iOn. o

E\- 1'.Y h~:n1. n1cn1ber lllllst realise that this i,;, <J r~ut :ticH of paratnonnt irnportanC'o. \\"c• 1l'tYr ir:. ~.\ustrnlia a tariff prer)arcd and 11ns ..... t d h;,- a ::\rdionali --t Govcrnmc·nt. but \YP iu QvcPnsJand haYf' never ~"·:t taken ach-:ndngc of that legislation. "CnfOrtunah~ly, the1' i::; nowh(•ro to plncc the whole of tl;e lads who dc~iro to become apprentices. It h an unfortunate cirrunlstancc that L Qur-:nsland under a Labom.·

hnvC' ~.:tone do'\\-n con::,id r­n bJ:;· l!l proportion to tho prO.QTess n1ado 111

other States. and that a smaller number of men aro employed in them to-day than in 1914. If we hrrd taken m·erv ad,;a.ntao-c d the lq~islation provided by the) Federal Go­vornJncnt, there would not havt' bee:1 anY nocc"i~v to-clay to bring in a Bill to doa'l w1th 1 he ap]Jrenticcship question. 'I'le difii­<·ult,, WDclld have soh·ed itself. without the Legj~] ·tture ha.Yinb to go to the extent or pae"in;c lc•;islation to d~al with it. We must first r•calisc th::tt the number of apprentices con1ing out of their time and new arrivals j .... le:o.;;;; than thc:. 1vastagc of skilled n1en in ou;_· industries. If that is the position, then the Bill does not got oYer it. The l\1~ni::-rl'r ref :rreJ to shortag·e in a cer­tam trade, but he only gave one reason for that shortag0. The rPason for that s!tort '. ~c i.·> lwcan'ie thl' nurnber of appren­hcc, H not cdlottocl in respect Df that tr clr· for 1hc1 ,,hole of Qucenslanrl. This Dill does not tr·c tt a trade as co.-cring tho whole of

tlH• Stutc. It ·hould not bo a principle rn tlw Bill that ouch particular factorv or ln;_sineo:::'s sbould carrv a ccr~ai11 ntunbCr of appr('ntices in relatiOn to the nuinber of the men employed. \Y c _,houkl take the nwnbt•r of mt~n engaged ie a trade fo1· the \Yho]e of the State, .and allot the number of apprnl· tices r.cC'ordingly. By that n1eans we ;hould Le able to rnakc all c~tiuwtc of what ihe future requi1 CJ.lCnts of that trade in QuPPns­land wiil be. I have looked into this mattu arHl read. ;;~ good dc:1l about it, and I haYt~ cmno t{, mv ronC'lusion 1vithout con~;'J.ltin~.:r 1 he " Enc~·rlopa'dia Britannic a." a··. th·;~. :Yiinister has l'Yidently done 1 hi~ n1ornint>~ in order to gi,·e us the his1or;· of the appre:~­ticcship pmblem. I h2lieYe that you eau trace hi::' rctnarks word for '\\·ord "\Yith tho:-:e contained Ht the '' Encyc1opredia Britan­ni"a." I admit tlwt i:~; a Yery Yhlnab1e book.

The SECRETARY I)R PCRLIC \YOHKS: It i~ a \·aJuablc book fo1· :on to stutly -.·our::;;elf.

l\Tr. KERR: I Ycnturc to expre's the opinion that as timt' progrc~scs the indeu~ ture of apprentice' "·ill no longer he nee( s­sar.y. That rnay sr-on1 a startling statenJCllt, but n1achiner"~/ and invf'ntion have do11c a lot to diYicJe ancJ subdiYicJe the various trades. In the olden times, "·hich the Minister referred to thi;;; 1norninc. it ''a" quite an C . .1~y.math:l' to appr-:.ntice a J:1d and take hin1 through the compktc trade. To-da:c the position is entirely dlftcl'cnt. As -.ve progress we find that nHill"· 1nen \\~ho have becotne skilled tradesmen ·arc moecly opcratDrs of various n1nchint:':-:., and, as tin1e goes on, we probably shall ha \'C machine' doing tho work that ic now donP by thD>< operators. \Ve ha,·e only to take the bootmaking, the clothing. ond the cuuni!1~· llHjLhtrlc:o.; ~~ C.::lSt:'· in poi111 -.dlC'I"l' one 1nan ntten~1 to Hlllchint ~ that "\\·otk One cf the burning·

';:ht>thcr t ho~ n1cn .<t ri• It '\\ill Le a OLW~ tioll

of the future, a ··c:ir>nce further pro-grL'sses, whetlwr it will b·.~ lll'('l'·"'ar: for an appren-tice to be killer! t.) attend to thos nwchinL's. cl0 l of c:·t•dit ha:-:. brt-E l ~ken fDr foi' the intJ·oduction of better conditions in th•_' fal tory anl co!n-1nunitv in Q,'Cncral. I l)('Jievc ·that inYen­tion, ~i:1 nl~C'hiw~r.; pul·ricularl:Y. haYP donP HtOl'f' tlnn alL thP Jcgi~dation in 1he "\YO~:ld 1) bring ;iLont lJctt0l' '.couclitioiJS :in fartorie~. n better rnodt: of livinrr. ~nlll better civili~a­tion generally. \Ye lll"Li"-t rc1nen1bcr anothf-l' Ycry irHportant factor in dca]Jn~~; \Yith 1hls qn . ..:.tlon: th:n· i"-. thP quc.;tion oE .:d ~ndrn~di.~ation, "\Yhich is :-;o es.senti'l.l in eypry coantrv throughout the ".\ ,)rl(l. Stan.dardi~ation rannot be oycr1ookcd in Queensland. It is ab<olutch· nccessarv that· \ve should take C'O,\:tnisance ;Jf it in c'onncc-

tion \Yilh our indnstrial f'xi::-t­[12 noon] ""c.•. Stanclardi<ation by rcp.-

titinn of nn uperation in th<' produ{:tion ~-: an article i~ one of the chief factors in regard 10 production. That 1vlll produce largt'r fJU~ntitiC'~ at a cheaper rate. and \Yhile doing that it •vill nwan that in an iTJdu,;;;try that at onp tin1e norcs::-jtatf'd ~killed n10i1 un.killed men 1vill be able to do the '\YDrk \vith 1. few n1onths' h·nininu:. [n th0 Arbih·ation Conrt the Dther tlv n1nnas~ing ·{1irr"tor oi thP "C.aurier '\Ya::< askC'd ho·- long it took a f'Prtain bod~- of rncn y:h< '::0re bcfon\ the court to l0arn their business: I think he said it took a fort­night; and the representative of the

JHr. Kerr.]

Apprt nticeship Bill. [.~SSK\IBLY.] ApprcnticrsJu:p Bill.

! ;.nnlt1vt1C'S said that it took , e::tr:3. I Y£'11-

rurG t~ say that nwrhinL·ry is 'going to wipe out <1 great many of the 'killed trade·.

This Bill dieplays very little vi>ion. The Bill is most inc0mplete as a means of deal­: ng with thE' requiren1cnts of to~day. rrake ovr own Cit/. Sa;~ a nwn "1\as bullding a wharf at a cost of £40,000. He may Lqnirc to lun·e fift,,· men on the job. a.ll rnnre or less skilled. bni no ~ki1kd tradcs­Jtlcn. Th('rC' \Vould n.)t bl' one apprPnticP on that \rork, for the 'imple rea <on that boys haYf' not been givrn an oprJOrtunity to learn anything appertaining to that trad(~. Xo C'~lntnittce, no GoYCrlll11Cnt, no Arbitration Conrt. no Director of Labour. has eYer looked into the question. 1 t ha£' g-one bv rhc board vcn.r aftl'r y{'ar. On the other ,ide we find tens of do'zcns of men of from eighteen to tw0:nty ,~cars of age going to :-vch works n.nd asking- for a job. rrhose rncn, because of the higher rate of pay dt•In~nded under tbe a ward. Fire not allnw~_ -l to go on as improvers. and they dcnnnd the rate of a skilled man of many years' experience.

This Bill Bhould makl' ]Jrovision for crr­tain contracts to be entered into v:hcrc these rnen are concerned. Perhap" the S{ rrctary for Public \Yorks \vill '<t", that I shonlcl not .llh·ocate a lower rate of pay. but it is reason­a1)1c to ~a~· tha.t a man with ten years' experi­ence is o, better man thar a boy of eighteen to twenty year~ of age. Y car after year ·we !ind that undt1 1' thi., GoYernrnent bovs in .... uC'h placps a" ilw \Yo:Jl :-;tor(':" ·ork in thr•ir J1t'"itions from the ngf' of fnnrtc{~n to the : gc of eightPen. and then. because of the higher ratr• of lJa·Y dPY'Wnclcd when th<1 :_v n -~eh the ngc of eightePn. they are no !crtg'L'l' 1·cquired. The result i~ that Lhey t1oat all O\~er the ph . .t'c and their scrvi{'?9 He not r~qnircd b{'Cfllb( th<'v are neither in::proYc-rs nor ~kill('d tradesm{:n. ThP ;;;an1e t1ii~1g tlT1plj('S to men .,.,v}v) haYC lKC!l cJerk­)Lg and, \rho. -1' hen theY rc1rh n c.•rtain

haYf' to lcaYC' their JObs 011 account of high ratc of pay sti]mlat<'d bY tho

uwanL. Thi-; B1ll makes nu proYi.;:;ion for r hose Inen. 'Yhon \YP r1 .lrh th2 Con)mlttec '.tabe I intend to ei.cnlate o. number of cmt'ndnL·nt.-; to nH'et condition\;\ ~~~hich. in my ')pinion. should be proYidcd for.

Looking lit the ,chPtlulc. I cCC that quite a nu-:'nb<'r of industries have been added-­..-.lay-\Yorking. clothi11g. cook,, coach anJ In,. to~· body builcliiJg. and the l'oot trade: and j ... :-.0cn1s a YL'ry rirliculous thing. indh_'d, •or c.n cmplo}N to go to. the trmibl< of rnrjng a lad or a gid for thP u1akiJ1:1, 1 :•ad ,--rrl:ldf' clothing or drc.-:;:;n1nkin~. }luny nf the,e things can1e under the heading of md<•ntured inrk .

Hon. 2\I. J. KIRWAX: Are t.hry not 1raclce? .. \,.on \\·err:- cornplaiJ2ing a little \Yhi1l· ago llta r IH'UY1-,ion "irns not n1ade for trade ..

:' Ir. ICE HR: Thf:' hon. gunt1enwn has onl, jLl t corne into the C'hanl1Jcr~~

T:H, SPEAKER: Chdcr:

;.:r. I.(EHR: .\11d he d-oes not kno1Y -.--hat arn tt.llking about. In n1y opinion, .'3n'2'h

ar:..• ridiC'ulous. If the Secn:tarv Public: Work< would mly go to

ra 'le,. ··nd Yisit some o.f the clothing tori cs there. he would "'" fift0 , sixty, or per. h.,ps a hundred .girls, doing the same thing da:-- after clay, stitching ayray in the satnc old ' ay. And now they arc going to be inder1-

[ Mr. f( P.r1·.

tnred! I had hoped the 2cppcuniceship Connnittec had 1norc scn::;e than to include such clanscs ut the Bill.

As againBt that, it will be fol1n<' tiwt many tlepa.rtn1cnts of the Tet:huieal Colh•gc a.re Lot included in the Bill. EYidPn1l:-·. tho Apprenticeship Exccutiyc hay;_· no i<ltl·ntion of bringing in such indu::'trie::, a~ .. ool, nnd agriculture, elementary art~ and the department of bu::::l1w" rr-1 ining. Perhaps thL' A~':lslant I--Ion10 ~l'(Tt: 1 1 ry did not quite grasp tlw dif-ference b,,ny 'f.'ll what I mean by ind('nturiug and -whar I emw-idrl~ 1hc proper ~e-curing of ,'>·ouths frcnl 'l :--choo]­a.gP on ward::; and giving them ;u; oppor­tunity to learn trades, so I '.:ill fLlllplify 111y ideas as I go on. There <~re n1any dcp,ntments in the Tech11ical that could be bcnelit<1rl b. "hip scheme. 1 refer · departmc·nt dealing dJm.Pstic ~ciCllf'C, cooking. 1nilliner~,·. Tho· ~ snbjcc:~ are !lur

in the Bill at all.

Alrhong-h it is aileg-ed that tho' Bill is going tD deal \\·ith apprentict• l c-_,nsidet· tha1. it ha~ not gone fa1· to the lad at ,,·hool. If vou arc guin,· be ·UC(·"~sful Fith a ~;eh."DJC' ~ Jikc tni:;:, ,-r,u mu :-:it first of all JLOYide fo,- thee ·'ttcnding the State sehool. If YOH him in rh<e St1te school and 1vatCh his f'ltul'-! LlL·Yclop­n1l.nt, ~VOU haYe a greater e.hance nf sloing ,c;rnething- in the right dirc·ction. 1.· o'omh Africa thc'v ban an Ac' whic!J f n· jnycnile adYi~ory lY>ards, al!d ~Tt't' with 1 ha.t. but their functions ,, ~1;, · tld bt• e:.::tPndcd to the Stare. and r <JYl~lOil made. For the information of , Hon'<', and so that it mav be inserted in .. Ilan­f-·~trd," I ,:;;hall read ~some of the functions of these boards-

"(a) To advise parents and children in all matte1·s ronccruing the jnvenile':; career and further education.

"(b) To conduct employment bureau:; by 1neaus of which juy,enilc"' 111a:~ be aosistl'd in finding the fOl'm of employ­ment to which thev mav bl''t be 'nite .. 1 bv circumstances ~nd a~ttainn1cnt,

"(c) To prev0nt ihe prcm ,tll"e re· moval of children from school when no in-,upPrab1c in1pcdin1ent to continue edu­cation exist~-

,, (d)' To follow up juycnilc-· by 111eun . .;; of afh--.r-sC'hool-car-e orgu.nisation~. \.-ith a YiCIY to ::dfording the nece~-c.arv guidance during th~ a\Yk 'l'ard period of a doles-C('l1C'l'.

'· (") To keep in touch with to ascertain the rcqnirem·cnts of Yarious industriPs and to jntrodnec can­didate'' for employment."

I consider that everv youth at age of fourte.0n yeai:s ~ shoulcl or other be registered. ,o that he \\'ill not get into thc'e dead-end jobs that h• 1' llO\'.' gcJting into. I Je,.irc to aYoid the J?l'P~C'nt concJjtion of a ~quare peg getting Into a round hole and a boy becoming a misfit ill the community. I read a Y·rry good article the other dav ill the .. Svdncv Bull tin'' in rc~a rd to mi~fits, I conuTiend' the Sccrctar:~ for Public \Yorl" to go ·;erv fully into thi< quLStlon. There is only one way of tackling it. First of all, adYiso pycry school in Queensland of tlw likely trade opl'nings that nu:tv occur durillfS the subsequent thrPe to six ~Inonths. EYcry boy in eYery ~chool should

Appl'cJdicesh:p Bill.

h1YC 3.11 opportn11ity of 11utting in an appli­catiou for such jobs In addition. adver­ti•-ements should be inserted in the Press ~tating that it has been ascertained' that such Yacancic::; exi:;.t, and a Group Commit1ee or ExccutiYc (;ommittee olwuld be the people to ,L·--ecrtain the future requirements of the :-:.unc. "_\n jntcl1igcnt interf2_,t should be takc·n bv 1hc •<:hoolmast.er. That should be inlprcsst~d on the Executive Con1n1ittee n1uch n1orc thaH j::.; done at the present tin1e. \Y c :ind that nJothcrs are totally ignorant of the different occupations offering. Of cour,e, !la1nrally. all the young people cannot get ~he one job, anri I recognise that is a very hard problem to get over, but it mnst be tackled.

Th . t brings me back to the point that 1 ht>rc' arc 11ut sufiiciQllt apprcntiocships offer­ing:. One way to get over the difficulty is 1 o 'dN·t bovs \Yith certain abilitv in cNtain trade"-. One bov mav be suitable for ofliro work, OJ' he rn'Uv b~ suitable for cabinct­Jnaking. and. if he is put to another calling. :,i;; \rholc life will be spent in \Yatching the .-.lock go rouncl. The-re an: these misfits, and tl1l' question can be handled only in one \Yay. It is necessarY to follow the juveniles from ti1c schools and sec that they arc placed at

trade for which their special ability makes rhein :--uitab]e. If we giYc murh more ron­,idcration to the; bon when thev are actuallv at ,chool we shall 'find tho;;c ~vho are suit­able for professional callings, and those \Yho are suitable for such callings should be giyen an opportunity. \Ye will also find that there arc ~on1c w}JO will n1ake highly skill-ed trades­men. some who will become medium skilled, and others ,,·ho will only be little skilled.

As I said prc,-iously. a register should be kept both of the work that is offering and • nrk that is likoh- to offer. and also a

reu:iqPr of bo~Ys an(l ~,~hat it is proposed to rlo \\ ith tlwm after thcv lea Ye school. I am not gojng to pay any~ co1nplin1onts io the Go,·crnrncnt in regard to thP introduction of this Bill. The0· haYe been in power for ten ~·e~~r:-;, atll1 it S0f'lll'3 to 1ne criminal that 1nanr hundred~, of bo....-~ lHlYe been unfortu­r:atcl T circurnstanced ·b.\~ rca:3on of legisla­tion of this nature and ha YC been preyented from learning- rr skilled trade.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC \YORKS: That i.::. ab~urd lWll~('ll~·0. BoYs .hayc llot learnt trade- bccauso they have not been able to £tPr job~.

:\Ir. KERR: 1t is a pity about that. I am talking about bo~~;·~ ·who could not pass an t'duc.ttional cxan1ination, and because of that factor n1any hundred~ haY0 been rPfusf'd an opportunity to learn a skilled trade. It is r riminal. Let rnp quote somP figuH''3: ~In 1922, 594 bo1·s sat for examination as traclc apprentice·-., and of that number 278 failed-nearly 50 pl'r cent. In 1923. 390 boys ..::at for Pxan1ination. and of that nu1nber :c71 failed. In two years nearly 50 per CPnt. ha Ye f. ilcd. \Yhv the failnres in the c-.luca­tlonal cxan1lnati~n '? I know a number of hm·s "·ho would haYC been able to secure jobs. The'' knew of "'l1ployers V.'ho '•' onlcl pnt thPn1 on as a pprcntif'f'f'. They went to the .\pprPnticeship Committee to be regis­tercel. and. because they failed to pass this exan1ination, the cxplo:vers could not giYe th'·!1l a SPll't. I a"k. 1Yhc1 arP 1hc;,, bo\~ to-da~ ? Tht'y arc floating ronnd, pPrhaPs on a butchrr's cart. or perhaps on a baker's r·.art. nnd aft0r thf'y get to be ~ixteen or :.;;c'Yt'nteC'n years of age under the a·ward

Apprenticeship Bill. 233

thev must gPt a high 1ate of \Yagc and so thL·v are thrm\ n Ol!t of \\orlc \V hat do the~- do·; I have come in personal contact \vi1h these cases. That is all under a Labour Admini,tration. Quite apart from trades apprentices, I know of men in this town who ('oulcl get a job~ but because the un1on books are full they cannot take that work. \Vhat l!lore do You \Yant than that? The :\1inister knows that I ha,-e discussed the question with him, and he cannot help in the matter lweame of iho domination of the Trades HalL It is time that the people of Queensland knew v;11:tt was happening. Instead of forrning a CJLleuc and spending £170.000 a year on gi\ ing rations in this Staic, it is a pity that these men are not allo\Yed to take the jobs that they f'an get.

The Government prefer men to sit in the Tradeo; Hall and play cards until a job may inrn up. I haYe seen it myself. I haYe got PYcn· kick in the ·world against this Govern­ment for their action in connection YVith appn~nti< {'"'· For tell years they have done nothilH~' but bring along a miscellaneous CC?l­lection of rc~ulations, Orders in Council, notices, and in~trumcnts of yarious descriv~ 1 ion~. onf~ oYer-riding the other. Outside­people \Yith their bovs do not know where to turn in rf gard to this matt,er, and 1vhcn Uw boY:" ran get a job they arc not allowed to take it because of the re,trietions that are in1posed.

There Is one clausc of the Bill-that ch:aling with l>nl,lic c~aminations-\Yhi(:h is :1 ycry ~ad c·ontnlcutnr_v on the cdueat1onal :--Y:'tf'm of ()uepn-land, if lt is ncccs..,ary for ~;n upprcntic to pa~."J a11 cxan1irwtion to Lecon1c ,a. tracle.;man. ::\Ianv of QHJ' be ·t tracl0sn1cn in Austrulia arc nlcn "\Yho do not 1 JOS'>E.'"S a fifth-0lass education, and so111P of tlH~nl haYC no Pducation at all. I knoY;' th:-oi; d1is Bill sass that the r_>xarn1nation CHl be wain:•d. l'hc'n it sa.n;; ihat an Pxan1ination: ma;c· bP held, and it al>o ""''" thc Minist.c1· Inay grant a.n PXC'mption. \Yhy not J!ro....-~dC> in the Bill ~tralght out that. an exanllnation i;;; not, nccL' ~'3ar.': '; Cmnpctition in a}lprentic'­~hlp:-: from an f'dncational point of ..-ir-'w is ''rang. There ~lF>uld not be that com]1Ctitinn fron1 an educational point of Yie"\Y for appl'(•nti~e::-hip.. I can under::,tand that \\hen an appn'nticP clerk in the RaihYay Department or the public se n-ice is required. :1 met hoc! of elimination must take place; but, so fa·r as a trade iS- concerned, it i~ an entircl, different proposition. I say definitely that if a lad gets a job, he should bt• allowed to take it. If the Government arc [oing to ndh0rc to thL: clauFC in the Bill ] 11 OYiding for a. public cxan1inn tion, a .cert1-fieate fr~m the head master might go a long '\Yay to"\vards getting OY£'1' the difficulty.

In regard to the proportion of apprentice~. I do not think that we should depend upon the Arbitration Court to fix this important question. The proportion of appreUic. ' -,houlcl be 'tated clefmitelj in the Bill. anrl the minimum shonld be one apprentice to thrPP journe:vrnen. The ayerage life of a. tradP~rtHlrt i~ son1t tl1ing like tbirty-fi'.'( ~·t''tl'~, 1ncl, if he had to train an apprentice for ('very fiye years of his life, undoubted!_,. the Io;arkct would become m·crsupplied. It ou: r1 not be ach·isable for eve·P: tradesman to 1' ain fiyc apprentices. A pi-opm'tion of mw to three v.·orks out that over a period of thirtv-ftYe years three tradesmen might train six apprentices, Over a period of thirty-fiyp

ar, each tradesman would double himself.

Mr. Kerr.j

234 Apprmticeship Bill. [ ASSEJ\IBL Y.] Apprenticeship Bill.

as it were. That is :very fair. That propor­tion of one in three must not lw for tiH• v:orkshop only, but it must be for the tradeo as a \Yhok and the Bill should be Yer.v <lefinito on this matter. It should not be left to the Arbitration Court or to any out· sidors at all. I understand the employ<>rs and employees haye met together and h~Ye clociclcd what the very best is as regard~ apprentice·.. In my capacity in this House I am not going to give way either to the employers or the employees: I am hnc to do the Yerv best I can for the boys and th•• men outside. I am quite satisfied that t!H• Bill cts it stands is :very incomplete and does not lay -down a practic,tl method of keeping up \\·ith the requircm.nts of the trades. The Minister must see that is so. and I want him :to mak8 special provision .for tho need- of the trades. l lwn' pro.·iously dealt with the qtwstion of age, both in th<~ House and out­side. Tlw most difficult age to pro,-id -, for a Lov is between fourteen and sixteen. L:ndcr the ·administration of this Government for about t<'n vears a bov has not boon a!Jle io take a job .. until he is sixteen yoHs of ago. Through the advocacy of this side of the HmH< -perhaps my m\·n to a large extenr --und r the regulations referred to by the Minister in 1923 the age was altered from sixtc<m to fourteen. Under this Bill » e do not knm,- ,_.,hat the ago is going to be. In a mea-, m' of this kind the age should be dc!itwd, and not left to Orders in Council an 1 1-1 Iniscellaneous collection of docurnent:-. '\Ye found that when a bov left school. under this Government h: could i10t take a job until he was sixto<'n. If a bo.-'s mother ·told him when he left school that h o could take a job in order to asRist to kPep the hnrn' :;;oing. what haJJpenPJ? \,\,'hpn the boy was sixh'rll he had no inclin~tion to settle down and learn a trade. hut would rather float round. The Govcrnrrwnt, by reason of that state of affair.~. h:)_ye done nothing else but cultiyato the muscle of this country instead of the braius. I say that it is better for the countrv to have brain po·, ·er than muscle power. Th'(. C,ovcrnJllent under Dur appr('nti<., :;hip schc1nc lul\-c done nothing· more nor l-oss than under­mine the education svstcm of Queensland. '' hich is one of the best in the \Yorld. Thev hnxe undcrJninN1 our edu<:ationa1 svstcn1 nnd C'u1tiYatf'd ihc Pxcrcise of mu~clc sO that a rna11 does D{Jt US( his br _ins at alJ, but

in ronstruction v orks and in oi-lier w;:l~YcJ. I regret that the agn Emit i.;;; not

in tho Bill. I do r>ot lmov whrthrr the Apprcntires;hip Cornmittee or th- Exf'cu­tivP Council intend to n1akc the 1ninimu~ 1 fourteen years.

'Ylr. \VEIR: ·what do vou mce>n lw """kino: th0 mini In tun fourt0cn }~ear~? ~

:Mr. KERR: ·under the rc;;ulations ;,l 1923 the minimum age was fi~orl at 14 'e"1-.

Mr. WEIR: ~ot more than 14 year's?

Mr. KERR: Oh, ves; minimum 14 vean and maximum 18 yc~ars. I have an cXtraC't from the report of the Board of Trade of New South '\Vales in 1922-1923, "-hich road -

" ThP bov who lcayc:, ::;:chool at tht~ beginning ~f his ' tc:._•ns' and ex eh •ngcs the studious habits of school for tlH' cc --c­lessness of the street, discipline and restraint for indulgence and ind: pcn­denco, is often therobv unfitted for further study and training when in a year or two he should begin apprentice­ship. ::\rot only has study heeom:• distaste­ful, and regular habits irksome, but the

[Mr. Kerr.

value of the training already receiv1 d ha~ been laro'f'l v destrovt'd b'-' its prPmature nnd ~orunpl·ete ce~sation."

Tlwt i., ti\tr. The bo·· ·, life in a sPn'e has ber·n SlJoilt bv the ]a~k of attention on the part of thr' Gm·crnment. Thi, Bill does not i nlDro\-c th0 si tun t ion, inasrnuch as the Gc:•,'C'l'flll1C'llt have dropped thr age proYidcd i:1 thP t·egulation:S. Fron1 a legi~lative jJoint n~ vievr it is urnri.;;,e to leaYc the lnatt:>r to PllY othl'l' au1horitv :-:;uC'h a . .- the Ar:)itratimt (_ n'urt. thP Dirccior o£ Labour. o~· the }Jini:;tC'r, Definite provi~ion ~hould he nuul in the Bill, and I hop•c that the JYlinisrCJ' will r,r·nnit of 14 year of r.ge b;·illg in--crttJ in ('on1111ittcc.

Tlw SEC'RET.\RY FO!l Pl'BUC '\YOR!{~: \Yhat art' ,·ou prono~ilr .. about fouriTf'll y_-;u ... (£ ut.:;P :· Yr>u kno'' that cornpul."lor:v cthl{'<:Jtio~1 :- prnYidf1 d up 10 fourtctr!.

:ur KEH.R: Gnrler vour GoverJm2cm fur hcut clrdn \t1 1l' a lH)Y could net t<l~~·-2 a

Ll':Hlc 11n1,il h.0 as sixtf'·<·r~. The :3ECHET_\RY l'JH. PLBLJC \YORKS: 'Sixteen

y( 'r i-"' th·• pl'Oi)L'l' age io si art r t.

Mr. KERR: \Yhat made the j\Iini-ter ltr•r it 1>:.- l'06UL~riou last ,-·oar? It i:;; a

qu0stion he < annot .answer. If nocessary, \Ve :--hnuld start a S)-·st0n1 under whirh a bo;.~ could g''' on to a floor. In the olden da,'5 a boY 't__oUlfl runl·d go on the floor, but the G0n_,·rnn1Pnt han.:_. \ .iped that systPln out.

\ Go,~ER:\:)IE:\T ~1E:\IllER: That is child hl:our.

::\[r. KERR: That is not child labour. If it i~ child labour. v·o hould incrcn; o the · choo1 ng:P.

Th'' >',ECdET.\RY FOR PcBLIC \VonKs: You c-:r0 a gvocl apo]og·ijt for the child exploiter.

).Ir. KERR: TlH: hou. gpntleman ha~ 1H!Pn

1•roug-ht to lH.•cJ roo 11Htll\:· tilllC'> to talk like dw1.·- ·

The :j~CRET.\HY FOR Pr:BLlC \:Vorn;-s: \Yhat ~.·on arp advo{· ·tinsr \Yonkl rp:;;ult in th0 ~·xploitation of children.

~~Ir. KERH: The hnn. g·entleman b1mv' that it \Yould do nothing of the kind. There J.-U.'t be a lin•it to the appr0ntice· in the ynriou::; iTttdc~ in Queen-land-then~ is no qn(~~tion of exploitation. It is not fair to takf1 <Hl isolated sontenc,· out of a ~pc~rh. The hon. ~onffc.nHln should be in tho Chamber anc'l lic't0ll tD rhe specche:

The SECRET.\RY ron I'cDLIC 1\-onKs: I have 1Jcon lwrc a 1l the i ime, nnd I ha vc heard a Yerita b]e tcrrent of \Yords frorn you.

::\1r. KERR: I am no+ going to tackle the qu' .tion oi edurotion: I am quite sati,fred ~ J !NIYe tbot in the hand' of tho ExecutiY<e. l ao-ree with tlw :\1inistcr that the education nt fhc Terhinal Col1egc can Dnly be con1pleT mPntar\ to the training in ihe factory. I \VoulU 'like to see the nig·ht education of .<.lppr.=:·nticr~ done a1.vay \Yiih as ... u1nch . as no..,sJblc. and that the ntaxin1u1n or education ~ t the Tcchnico I College he one nig·ht per \YC('k. a11d I recommend that to th0 ~Iinister.

:\_ bOY \Yho f!nj~hcs \York .~:t 5 o'dock may hnYf' 'to go out of to\Yn a nu1nbcr of 1nil0" 1 o a; ·t home_•. There i::~ a c0rtain amount of tr'n~ptation to a boy if he has to hang round the •·lt·ccis until it i' time to -start at the .nllcgc at night. I beiieyo thP.t Mr. \YeaJ:no. th<' Director of the Central Techmcal ('oJ!r-ge. ha' tried to moot the situation. but there~ is only one ''ay of overco1ning the

Apprc,1tireship Bill. [l± Auoc:sT.] Appr~nti .. ·eship Bill. 235

r1ifficu1t:v, 1nd tlwt is bv pro\ id1ng by regu­Ia1-ion 1hnt a hoy has onhr to attend the colle~·p one n1ght a \Ycek. L

'l'h0 i',JCCRETARY FOR PcBLIC \VoRKS: Ho'' often do ou think they a !tend now 9

:'IIr. KERR: Somr of them attend two or _I hyct._•

1 nig·hts a v;cE'k. In n1:,: opinion this

Bdl C~Ol'·' not mod our 1'0qmrements. \Ye to iudPnturc quite a numbcr of ap1Jrcntic0s. apparently ·wiihouL notic0 1vhatr'YCr of th(; l1PCC'·Sitv

further lnfonnut.inn. Thcr.c rPqniriug· the ExecutivP t'J

('f'rtain information v1·ith regard to Yfll'Jou trc~dc:.:! ·wLich infonnation is abso-1 ·telv e·sential in connection with anv ap;il'l''lticeship schf'HW. The Gm·ernmcr:t

nd the; Apprenticeship Committee should :~:-c, l'tHln t.ho nun1bPr of apprentices Jikc>lv 1o ]li' rf'qnil'cd in the i-rafLs for six n1onth."'

<llHl y-hpn rhat inforn1ation is it ,honld lw giY< n to tho 'chool,s ..

Hilma"'tCl' ~hon1d thC'n let jt go out the boY- t0 th(_' parent-_. Pro""~,~isicn

. . Le nu1dc' wiping· out the cotll-J rtitJYC' in regard to apnren-; ic,•-.hi l. TiH' ~~gc f'hould b~ brought~ (lnwn_ to fonr+('<'n Y~'<lr . ;;:.n R3! to do 8wav IYith 1 he ')J'C ·-(•nt unfo1 tnn;HP period of tv.·o· vcars.

TlH' :'ECHET.\RY FOR PrBLIC vVOilK~: Thoro i.~ nrJtl•ing to prcYent a boy :::.tarting a trade at fotll t· cn.

1\lr. EERH: I knmY therf' io nothinn· to prCYCl\+ 11-. l1ut th<' Bill it·· elf doc3 notn f.irlY

~-~;, For y:cnr after. ;. c what ha;-; th.P ~.-O'>'f .'1!lllt'1lf ~ lr;.:;t:-.Ianon If it has lint l- ~·n of an naturP. ~r goin~ !Jack {JJJ k:?;i~In tion. !ikc' ra to on lJU~ l!lc -"

it h: Lc•31 somC'thin'"" (~one bv the :\linisicr 1 n the o_r re-gulations ltndcr Arts of -Parli Rr·gnlatiLl_: <tTf' alwaYs bPino·

li'd{·]e- nnclcr 'Dltlf' Art~ It D {12.30 p. (1.] tinH~ in an a1ncnding- 13i1l snrh

as thi>-\Yhic h the Minister ~an \Yill fo other countries in the world 'a~ fill ,i law. although I do not think the\· i\-i1l ~Ti Yl'l'Y ,,IUCh ou.t {)f it~that wr lai~i it ckl' n ourseln•s in black and white. I '\·an1 1 o ~..:"(' gTf':::J! er po\Ycr:;:. giycn to thC' Exc ·nii\-f'. Ceri2in po1vcrs a'rc YE'<;<,tc·d in the ::\Ii:1i tt.~r and others in the Arbitration ('curt. It j,s tiniP -.,,~c t0ok them U\YfiV, and g'flYC' th('m tn n body cf 1ncn ho arC com­p('tf'1lt :nlt1 ~--ho .11· ·~ to l1c paid for thoir

\"'";.~c do not ''ant them to bG lncr£>1-r Ow juri.~dirtiou of tho SPCl'ctarY, "·YhQ

-:1 rhrtl'. 'l'Onvcnf'::< a meet in!?,' now and· f!gain. I 'anr to .'Pl' that Executi\·e and the Grcup f\lntrniitccc.:. operflting to a g;reatc,r C'xtent I han they ,ere to-clcy. I do not want to ,,p,, lhc

1 :Jiini~t~'r's Dep~rtmcnt take the right

11, uny to lntcrfPre 111 any f)hape or for1.1. I tru t tlwi, when the Committee stngP of

the Bill comes along·. thr· ::Vfinistcr will bo in "'eh a mood that he will accept reasonable <I mcnclments.

The RE<RETARY FOB PcBLTC \VORKS : I [1]\\ ~:-~ rtr(·cp1·, rF. Eonable a1nendn1cnts.

l\Ir, GLEDSOJ\' (Il'-'ICich): Before pro­cPodilll! to deal \Yith ilw details of the Bill I wonltl like to b1·ing before the notice of (he Honso some of t'he remarks ,,hi eh the hon. n:f'LllH'r for :Enoc;gera made in his oppmition to it. The onlv conclusion to -which T 'an rmne i:'; that the hon. mmnber kl.' '' ,. rr 1d the Bill and dooo not under· :-;rand it; 1hat i ., if he reallv brlieYc~ what he has sairl. Perhaps, howe,-'cr ho has rf'a.d ±he BilL aud he is i.alking \vifh his tongue

in his cheek and for the purpose of mis~ leading the people a:: to \vhat it provides for.

In the first place. he mak0s the ·,tatoment that the Bill .dof'' not j)l'OYide for any age limit. :'\ow th<' Bill doc.s provide for an age limit. a.nd it prm·id< · for it in the best F:1~sibl{' v-;;-a~-; thEt i-., it sa~-;:; that the pf'r­son.' yd1o arc re:-'pom~ible for the industry in an:; parl icular ea e shall, through the Arbitration Court, dct0rn1ine tho starting­and the flnishing llgc of the boys and girl~ who m y be a!>prcnticed to it. That is thf' onl;~· proper yyay in which it could be done. Yf~t the hon. nwrnber for Enoggcra says that the nH'mb"'S of thi· House should lay down a starting ag<:> and a flnishlng agf~ for evory boy and CY0l'Y girl in eYery trade. It is i1npossible to dn ilmt, ,md the wor::ings of the appren· 1-icc~hip sy~t"n1 up to the pre~cnt h?.so proved that jt is il~lpo·"~iblc, to do it {'OtTCct1y, and in ~ wa\· \Yhich is beneficial to all the boys a1:d girls concerned.

\Y c must rPn1eJnber the occasion for this DilL For son:c con~idcrable time, as tho i\liniotcr has pointed ont. Pmployen to whom boy,, fllld ~iris vn:rc indentured neglected 1hclr interest::.:. It wa~ found necessary for the Gm·cramL'nt to make regulations so that som<' control could be had, not only of the educational training of the apprentices in the rcehnicn 1 colleg<'s, but also of their tenining- in the \Yorkshops. to sec that those b-oYs tnld girl::; \Yerc getting \Yhat they were inclPnruJ· d for· i_~ LJ ~UY, ln:,truction in thcjr trrrde~. "! rL~_:.!:ulatiOns haYc been in op::raticm for tw l·n:· nwnthf, and it ha;:, brt>n found lJOs~iblc now to introduce in this Hm>R~ u Bill '"hid1 \\·ill proYide for the pro· 11er utte·::tiou Ly statute.

Cncler this Bill boys can J.,o .apprenticed Gt an~,· iirrH' frnn1 the 2gc of fourteen until 1 h::-. aie of t\Ycnty-onc }Iithcrto they 'vere. not allowed to be apprenticed after they had rcctchcd the age of eighteen ypars; but it has been pointed out that prm·ision existed wh n'by the Court could grant cxomption for bo.vf: bc•l \Yeen eightt'f'11 and twenty-ono ~Tal., {)f age. The effect wa~ that, when they \Yere ~xemptecl, no control was held "\-er thcrn. and the en1ployer C'ould do as he liked; h<c could <'ither teach them the trarlc concerned o;· not as ho wished. The Bi1l proYidPs for indenture up to the ag" of twenty-one so that up to tlwt age jho bovs \Yill under the control of the \ppl·erlticP~hip _., and tbe lH',...•tection

of the Arbitration Court. The Court. as 1 hun· ah'ead·.- pointed our, has power to fix the .starting and the finishing age in each case.

~'l.nothcr me I I. er in tho hon. member'' rema.rks to which I call attention is his ::tatcrncnt that n1cn tYho could get -..vork \Vcre prc~vPntprl front doing so because of certain proYi::.ions in ou1· law. I suppose that he will go out on the lmstin7s in support of his friends on t1le olhcr ~1de of tho river and tell them tlwt the working men around Brisbane', in~tcad of looking- for \Vork, [),re up at the Trades Hall nla,·ing cards. If the hon. ·,embN belic-;cs that o(his work<'rs, i·:; it a11y ~~ ond~·r~-

::\Ir. KERR: l~on k~1r_ that if ?.11 cn1ploYPr '':ants a n1an, he has to ring u1, the secretary of the union.

:\h. GLEDSOX: The hon. member made the ridiculous statmnent that men are unable to take \vork beca uc \ the books of the unions are closed rrgainst then1. and that many

Jir. Gledson.]

23G Apprenticeship Bill. [ASSKHBLY.] Appr. nt,.ccsh;p Bill.

hu11dreds of men could receive employment if the unions \Yonld ailo\Y them to start. That ie only a fallacy.

}Jr. KERR: It mav br• for y,m, but not for the man "·ho apj1lies.

}'fr. GLEDS0:'\1: 1f a man got a job­and the other man whom he displaced would probably be a unionist-he \Yauld become a nnionist too. so that. IYhcn he \Yas displaced by the next fellmv \vho canw a ]o!lg, it \\auld lH a unioui~t vdw was b(·iug displaced.

:\Ir. l(I~RR: You arc 1n,·1kiug the nnious close corporations, ano tLvY ._<ne run11ing you, too. ·

}lr. GLEDSO:\': The hon. llWmber also argued that the Arbitration Court end the :Ministpr should not control apprcntict·,hip matters. but that the· 'hould all be handed over to the comrnitte<:.s. \Yh) should persons vd1o an• 0IL_,agcd in particular trades in C'On1pctltion ,vith other: be allDwec1 a free hand-to emp!oy child labour. for instance, s.1ch as the hon. member for Enoggera is advocating all the time'

}'fr. I\.ERR: You a>·e all the time making n1issta tcrnents.

}Ir. GLEDSO:\': The hon. member makes a statc">lH.'nt. and then trios to get out of it. To rny n1ind the hon. n1en1bcr~s proposal "\Yould nwan that en1ploycl'S \Yho 1vere in competition \\'ith others v·ould bP allmYed to kerp boys and girl:;; ;H swcatc•cl labonr. I am mrpric··d that anybody should arh-ocate that •ort of thi!lg.

rrhr; hem. D1Pn1bcr ha~ · 1-:>o rai.;;:ctl t.:1c ftllC'"­flor of the -C'dnC'ation of al~Prl'llticP:-', The Bill provide' that apprentices •hall be 1-ra.inPd in the \York;:;hop>;: and. in addition to the training rccei,-cd in the tf'ehnical colleges pro\·id(•d 1Jy the ~tato. it i~ pro­Yided thn.t tr tining :-·haH be giY('n in the cn1plo~vor,' tirno chn·jng the day. There arc nn.v number of bo: ~ and girls who go to a technical collpgc and take cla~::::e"", and enter oth('r classes in adclitlo11 ro the ones \Yith whjch the:-· CF0 coniH'~ ted in carrying out their trade. \Ye haYP hnndrc~ds of boYs and girls. n0t only in Bri~ban0 but thro;1ghout the State, who take ll!J this 5Fpplementary education in on1''t' 10 i;JllH'oYP then1s('lYes nncl lit thcn1selyr;;; for tl-:ir places in li.fe. It i-; a g.ood thing if 1YP can indnf'(' our !Joy' and girls to take arh·antag-e of ·--hM has been proYided in the wa v of technical education. ~

It has also been shted that the f<onln•ical f'Oll€~r.:: arc not proYidlng proper Jn, truc­tion ar the cla~ses. The technical collL'JC;; proYlde nl(, in~ true! ioTl tha-t is nece8sar ...

:\h. 1\foORE: Are the:: pl'opcrly er1uipped?

}fr. GLEDSO:.i: The,· are eCJuippcd: but, if they arc not, they can be cqnivvccl ~o as to ~·nrJJ11,·, the cduc~J1on that i:-; nccc.,.-:ru:v. If the ]r'ader of the Opposition n1eans that thP college" are not. ~npplied "',Yith \Yorkshops, then I say lhat they arc not equipped np to '"· ork5hop standard, nor do I think it wise that they should be so eqni)'l'oc1.

Mr. Moom:: Are they c 'Juipped v;ith r.p-to· date rnq.chin _'r~, ?

}Ir. GLEDSO"'\': There 1s up-to.cJate n1achincry in n1ost (Jf tbe {':Jl1cg,·.;:. In Bri~­bane the machin0ry is up to date. and they nrc ahya~vs in111roving their eqnipn1e•;.t. In all the othc·r np·to.dato colleges throughout thf' ~;1at0 the nlachincr~- io.:. tt1J to J.~tt -'. and. like Brif:bane, the:v arc getting new equip­ment every clay. They keep their er1uipment

[Mr. Gledson.

up. I do not think it is the functi<JJJ of rv tochnicoJ college to '(art 'MJt'ksho]" in the colleges. Some people of Brisbane ,,·anteci an np·to·date bakery eetablishPd at rho Cen· tral Torhnical College for the purpose of iraining apprentices in b;1king and :•onrinn­ing that bakery in con1pct3tion wirh tho~e outside. That is not right. VIe should not establish workshops at the technical collegf's, but the colleg-e ... houlcl be conll11ed t·.) \vhai: thee' ore there for-to giving education of a purely tuhnicnl one! theoretical 11atnre in connection with thD workshop~, and uot taking- the place of the workshops thenH3clves. The hon. member for Enoggcra objects to the Bill provi-ding fo1 so man;,~ author-itif'"> 1 :J deal with the scheme. but th<•c- will bG found to hf' ncrf'ssar~Y. The grou1; con1rnit­teps \Yill look after the bo)-s and girls in the p .. rticular industry or calling. l=rovi."jon is m<HL' for advisor.\ committees.

}Ir. KERR: Only in the country.

Mr. GLEDSOK: There is no need for them nny\vl1c_•:·e PLc. Bri:-:;hanc ha:3 its. OVi:ll group r"0111llliH0c::-~. In Ijb\vich and otht r citie~

here 1hc ar n'qnir: d ,tdvi~._:rv conllnit-t"CS consisting of four rcprescntatiYcs and a chuinnan control the vholP of the indns· tries in those district~. and those authorities take thP place of th' grnup c·ornn;.ine\ ·" and look after the boy6 r:tnd girls who are ·•_ppren­ti( cd in those di~trirts. The Bill is a good: one, and I an1 sure that. if anything can b, done by those on this side to irnvron:- it, it ·will be done so as to giYe thoroug·h prof0C­tion to the boy\ and girls engaged in indu~­try. and not allow the ~mployers a free hand t) deal with the apprentices as they ''"i~h.

Mr. D"LNSTA:\' (Uym 1Ji<): I dcBire to con· gratulate the 1\linister on bringing in thic Bill and to wclcon1e it~ advent to tL_i.; I-Iou"e, and I hopE' that it will be pa."ed. 1\'•c can· not CXJWCt t.hat <tt first it \Yill be a complete and perfect 1ncasurc. \YE~ know that politi~;;;; i-:: not an exact. ""cicnl'C'. bnt '"' e live and learn by experience and CXIJerimc~nt, and I 1-·."liPYr­that thi~ Bill is a step-perhaps rnany ~·!ep~­in the right directio!l. It forms a bacis and foundation upon vvhich we can Plt'Ct bv C':'-..pC'riencc of- its workings in th~ future tbC :::ncressiYc stages of in1provcm-2nt in rPgard to an apprcnti('eship schenH~. \Ve spe-ak very often and Yer•· large!;· of the great paten· tialit ics and the 1naterial lYPalth ,l,: this Statr and of Australia, but \YC s]wuld aim rer -,g-niec that we ha,-e illimitable dth in the m<•ntal advantages of the youth r>f thi< Common·;·ealth, and that by v·iso lcgi .lation and technical p,)n<.,ation v,-e <"an bring ~c\ns­tralia to that ultimate goal which Wf' rlesire to accDnl}llish-a sclf-:::nstained and e-fficient "ation. I do not altogetlwr agree with the }Iinistcr that technical college instruction should not be allied with workshop vmctice.

The 8ECHETARY FOR Pl'BLJC \YORKS: l said that it could not displace workshop practice.

;\1r. DFNSTAK: I do not eYen agree \Yith that, if t1Jc flini8tcr n1eans that onl:· b:-r the sYstem of indenture can a. ,-killed arti·~.,u~ or properb equipped journcyrYJan ~e turned out. I foresee the timo when we shall have cornpletn \vorkshop practice in conncc­i ion \Vith our te{~hniral colleges. I ~ -)e no reason whv that should not be so ii funr1s would perinit. I can also forPsee the time wben probably that kind of technical instrlH'· tion will su]Jersede the instruction of "l'pren­tices b::· many cn1ploycrs. I recogn1':C that in man;: trade,; the employer is "bout the vorst instructor of our youths. I h<HC had

Apprenticeship Bill. [H AuGUST.] Appreliticeship Bill. 237

personal experience of that mvsclf. Irr many ·{;a::.t·...; rl::c cn11Jlovcr i~ oJJlv c~HlC,f'rned about llf-int.r tll" apprL'~ntice~ to ~Jo the hack work of his c~rablishrrwnt, and no one is particn­la d.'" :Jllf't•rncd with the training of the vonths. \~crY often the foren1an hat<, not iirnc, m.L1 th'c employe..._· is n1·ore concerned Y:ith g:er:ing the work dont' and with the profit d1111 in seeing that he <'stab1ishes in L1:-. industry a. ncyr nnit of effirif-'llC'- in a IYcll-trniHl'ti apprentice \Vith <1 view· to his beC'orning: a \Yell-efluipped journeyman. ~-\s illustratiYL' of that argument, let rnc take the fact that before the 1var Gcrmanv had one oi tlE: most. if not the most, pet:fcctly 0qnlppcd educational instnunents in the ~~-orld. C':cl)Ccially ~<Yith regard to technical Pllu._ ·ticn. ·:tnd it is a fact that, although n 11 Enf.Ji:.;hman inYcntcd the procc~s Df

nutkin,t..: ;;;:ynr hPtic d·Yes, l~crmanv was able to enter ilw' field and "take it wholh away from England, because she "·as able to emplov the ,.,,, army of technical stud<>nts turned ont froln her continuation and technical schook

In Onc<'nsland, as well as all over tho \F:irkL ~ rhe training of appr0ntices is beset bv ruany clifficultic,. Tlwre is the difficrllty <Jf denl lug with the cntplovcr, vvho onlY rec1uircs c·heap labour for his. industry for a term of ··car•-. There is the difficultv of nlt'cti:l~· t"hc necessity of parent vvhO in somc ca.sL·"" "·i~hes to en1plo.v his ;;:on in the indn.sn· for \Yhich he is rno.·-'1- adapted n1Cll­

rallv. and ll1en there is the other parent who ""Jc.,in's some income to be brought into the hou-c b_,- his son or daughter, rathee than .;cc them trained in the industrv to which they an' U<>st adapted. "

Then' is also the question of the union protecting the l't.)n1uneration of its men1bers by ]n·eventing· a. glut of artisans in that par­ticular .industry. vVo have also, in fra-ming n'gulatimB governrng .apprenticeship condi-7 ioM. to recognise that behind it all is the great ueed of developing our seC'ondarv indus­trie~ iu

1 ~-\.ustralia, so. that our apprentices,

\vlwn trw~- become JOurneymen, shall be -cmplo_ l'c! at ren1unerntiYe rates. I recognise 1 hat i.,, a question largdy for the Common­wealth; but it is a lamentable fact, even in a protectionist country like the United S'ta.tes of America at the present time that the least remunerativ-e professions 'and those \vorking under the v1 orst conditions are teclmological professors of the engineering and the allied trades. I can see at the back of all these r-egulations the system of arbi­tratwn to ascure to our artisans equivalent pay fur the skill they display.

I think that in many ca-ses in Queensland the term of indenture is far too long, and in many cases where properly equipped secon­~lary ,-chools are allied to workshop practice tt can be reduced. If the .apprentices, during the com·se of their training, sho" efficiency and good service, they should be rewarded by a cmnmensurate increase of 'krageR. We should provide a greater incentive for youths to undertake technical training. I recognise !he great amount of labour tha-t the Minister has shown in the compilation and drafting of this Bill. and I trust that from the benefit industry will derive from it we shall show very great advance in the future in regard to the apprenticeship problem. In many trades, although the regulatwns arc of great value, espectally to the metropolitan area, in the _:ouno:-'· this system of apprenticeship train­mg \nll be a costly process if the local schools :in the many industries are to be a-dequately

equipped. I am quite satidied that the regu­lations generally will be of ycr:: great value. and I trust that thcv \vill be extended to the country di;;:tricts in~ the yery near future.

HoxocRABLE ::\lE)IBERS : Hear, hear ! ::\Ir. ~IOORE (A ubiun!l : There are yarious

matters in this Bill of Yital interest to those parents who haYc gro\Ying boys at an ag·c jnst leaving ,chool, but I haYe boon unable to discoyc•r that it goes ..ts far a6 it might. l'n'm m:. perusal I ha-' e been unable to dis­coye>r \", heth{1 l' a boy can be apprenticed to an vrti~sn \Yurklng by hin1sclf. JYlost of the tr'1de~ <-~pr:eai to ha1. e Dne apprentice to bvo or thre~ jourue:·m(_.n, but there ·are many < .tsc-- in the countn of a skilled tradesman \Yorking at h1:; tr~dc vrho. in my opinion, could teach a hov considNablv more than a 'imilar· boy who, is apprentic'ccl to ,a trade could learn in a L1rgcr hop \Yhcro machinery is cu1ploycd to a 1nuch greater extent.

~Ir. ROBERTS: .\ boy cannot be apprenticed to such a tndesman to-day.

:\Ir. MOORE : That is a mistake. Such a tmdt'-noan is perfect!. competent to teach .a boy. A boy has better opportunities of learn­ing a tradP in the country than jn tascs such as arc provided for under this Bill. I should like the >cope of the Bill enlarged, so that a hoy ran LC' apprenticed to such a tradesman. In n~anv centre~ in the countrv dif'tricts technicai training cla>ses are not a;·ailable to the boy, and unle'8 the scope of the Bill is widcnerl in the direction I have indicated, many boys will be prevented from having the opportunity of becoming tradesmen. After reading· through this Bill, I am not quite clear as to .'Yhether a boy is to hav·e the 1inal say as to the particular trade he wishes to be apprenticed to. or whether the Apprenticeship Committee will have the right to say, '; ~.'here is no vacancy in such-and­such a trade; you will ha Ye to go to this other trade."

1\Ir. GLEilSOX: A boy can pick his own trade.

:!Hr. l\IOORE: The hon. member for Ips\Yich nJay ~ay so, but I cannot find any­thing in the Bill wlurh says so, or whwh sayo that the legal guardian or the Minister has that sav.

:\Ir. Dex~v.x : Very often they pick trades for which they are not suited.

}lr. :MOORE : The legal guardian may pic·k a trade which may be best for the boy from an earning point of view, but that does not ,.ay it is the one best suited for the boy. Very often a boy has an aptitude for a certain trade, and remuneration should not be allowed to enter into the question.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC V\'oRKS: The boy has the opportunity of choosing his trade if he wants to do so.

l\Ir. J\IOORE : I cannot see anything to that eff·ect in the Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC \VORKS: The position is this: a boy registers with the department as an apprentice. He then seeks employment in the trade where he desires to be taught. vVhen he secures an engagement he becomes a probationer for a definite period. If at the end of that period he still -desires to follow that trade and his employer wants him. he must be indentured to that trade.

[2 p.m.] Mr. MOORE: The group comm1ttee and

executi,-e committee ha,·e a say as to »hether

.Mr. Moon'.]

238 Apprenticeship Bill. [ASSE::\IBLY.] Apprenticeship Bill.

there 1s a Yacanc:; in th<e trade. On page 90 of " Hansard '' for last session the hon. m em her for East Toowoom b~. asked the Secre­tary fm~ Raihvu:ys-

" L vVhat WilS the numl)('r of youths who sat for trade apprentices-Brisbane, Rockhampton, Ipswich, Townsvillc, and Toowoomba, durin;;; the periods 1st ,Tulv, 1921. to 30th June, 1922. and from lst ·July, 1922, to 30th June, 1923?

"2. vVhat was the number who pas,ed ~uch examination-Brisbanc, Ips,vich, Toowoomba, Rockhampton, and Towns­Yille?

" 3. What \vas the number of such succcccful applicants appointcd-Bris­bane, Ips-wich, Touwoon1ba, Rockharnp­ton, and Townsvilk?

"4. \Vhat were their a~cs-(a) At time of -xamination; (b) at time of appoint­Inent?

"5. Have other cppointmentc as trade apprentices be('n n1a·dc ar aforemen­tioned places during the period 1922-1923 1

"6. If so, \vhat numb T ?" "The SECRET.mY FOR RAILVOYS (Hon.

J. Larcombe, l:l£z.pcl) rcplicd-1 No examination for trade appren­

tices \\,ls hcid between 1st July, 1921, aud 30th Jun-,·. 1922. The number who sat for examination between 1st Jul:, 1922, and 30th Ju'l<'. 1923. \Y 1s a,, fol· lows :-Brisbane, llil: Ips\Yich, 78; Toowoomba. 18: Ro-khampton, 130; Townsvillc, 68.

2. Brisbane, nil: Ipswich. 63: Too­woomba, 13; Rockhampton, 50: Towns­ville, 42.

3. Brisbane. nil: Ipswich. 21: Too­woomba, 8; Rockhampton, 17: Towns­villc, 11. Since 30th June additional apprentices haYe been appointed after passing; 1_-hc pref'rriLu1 exan1ination.

4. (a) At time 0f closin,; appliccttions all candidates were b<>hv-een the ages of fifteen and sixteen years. One lad had pas,_ed the UlliYersity examination and "as em!JloYcd on probation before the raihv-ay examination. (b) At tim<' of appointm0nt thirty-seven w _•re agE'd fifteen years, eig·htcen ·were ag-ed six­teen years, thirty-~cYen w·erc bet\yccn fifteen and sixteen ~,~ears, ninet:-_C'n \Yere oyer sixteen y·ears old.

5. Yes. 6 . ..:\n apprentice nchn1ak·er and

an apprentice sign\\ riter were also appointed at Brisbane for their :.pccial trade-."

The SECRET_\RY FOR Pl'BLIC \YORKS: That rf'ft..•rs to the RaihYa~- Dc1Hutn1ent.

:\lr. MOORE: Yes. but ce<n .ll tho e boys \Yho pass for engineering get into the railway \Yorkshops at Ips\\'ich?

The SPEAKER: Order :

::.lr. i\100RE: I ,,, as 0ndeavouring to fincl out \Yhcther every bo'-· who pas~ cl the exan'li­natiDn vvas apprenticed, or whether only u few ,·acancic> were filled. If a bov y. ants to bccon1·r an apprentice. he applies to the Apprenticeship Board for pr~!nis,sion to sit fot the exan1ination.

The SECRETAHY FOR PUBLIC \YC'JHKS: ::'-:o.

Mr. i\IOORE: \Yell, the hen. gentleman has so provided in the Bill.

[ 1111·. J1i oore.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC vVORKS: ::\at n"'ces:::mrily. r\ certain standard Df oclucation is insisted upon.

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. MOORE : An ,examination is pre­scribed. If the bo:,' passes that examination and then wants to go into a trade, the group ro1nn1ittce n1a;v F:ay ,,~hich trades arc aYail­able and put the boy into the one the} think fit.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS: ::\o.

Mr. MOORE: Well, that is the v,ay the Bill reads. An employer who desi r·es to employ a boy must employ him through that agency.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \VORKS inter­jected.

Tl1P SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ber must address the Chair.

::\1r. MOORE: After the boy has passed the exan1ination there is no provision for hin1 securing the opportunity of apprenticeship. -what I want to get at is whether this Bill is going to be wide enough to allow boys who desire to learn a trade to have the opportunity of becoming indentured after passing the necessary exa1nination, ~or is it going to place only a few boys in appren­ticeship, leaving the others to go into other occurJa tions. If the position is going to be altered through the Arbitration Court ancl the Minister-because the Secretar,' for Public \Vorks apparently takes full 'power throughout the Bill--

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC \VORicS: Xo.

Mr. MOOTIE: There is scarcely a. para­graph in the Bill in which the Minister does not appear.

The SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC \VORKS: Certam functions are left to the Court.

='ill'. MOO RE: In two places the matter is left t<l the Court. I want to know whether it is possible for boys to secure openings in the trades they want to get into. In Tasmania they make it compulsory irrespective of what the Arbitration Court says or what anv union in its endeavour to keep the trade a close corporation may say. In Tasmania it is provided that for every journeyman employed there shall not be less than two apprentices employed. They also provide for the employment of improvers. That shows they recognise that there is a shortage of skilled labour. and, if they are going to compel two apprentices to be employed for every journeyman, it means that these skilled tradesmen wil' come to Queensland. and our own boys who want to learn a skilled trade will not have an opportunity of doing so.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC \V.ORKS : Do you 'llggest that Y-e force employers to take a definit8 number of apprentices?

~1r. ::VLOORE: I do not think compulsion is a good thing if you c~n avoid it. It is mnch better to teach the employers the advantage of taking apprentices; but there are cases in 'vhich compulsion would be j1Htificd. We should compel those employer-; who have the proper equipment for t 0 aci1ing apprentices to take a ccttain nunlbcr. There is nothing in the Bill to say that the restrictions in regard to apprenticeship up to the present have been rela.xccl. The ::.J:inister can step in under certain CDndi­tions and ask tho Court for an investiga.tionj

Apprenticeship Bill. [14 AuGlJST.] Apprenticeship Bill. 239

but that does not go very far. In the prr>t manv of the >killed trades \Yilfully haYe been. kept close corporations.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR Pc•BLIC \\' ORKS : La>Y.·crs, doctors .. and dentists, for example

:\Ir. MOORE: La.wyers, doetors. and den­tists go further than thi' Bill. A man at anv agr, is aJloYJcd to becon1e a lawyer. \Ye know that :\fr. Hughes and l\ir. IIolman studied law and berame lawyers after they had been :in Parlia1ncnt many year~; but under this Bill, after a boy reaches the age of twenty-one years, he cannot be appren­ticed to a skilled trade. At any age a doctor or a lawyer can qualif} by examina­tion.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC iYORKS: It is illeg-al to inclcnturr anyone over twenty-one.

:\I r. :.VJOORE: It is illegal to pay anyone oYer twentv-one vcars of ago less than the adult wage~ ·

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC iVORKS: :'\o. lie can get a. Iiu•nse .as an improver.

The SPEAKER : Order ! :\lr. J\IOORE: It has been discovered in

other parts of the world that men want to become skilled tradesmen after they ha·co reached the age of twenty-one years. They hane been succcs,fully taught a skilled trade, a.nd it does not take tho long period to train these n1en that son1e people imagine. The ,arne opportunities should be given in Oueens1and as aro given in other parts of the world. Nobody on this earth can say that in five years' time ,,.e shall not want 25 per cent. to 50 per cent. more carpenters in Qncemland than we want to-day. The Bill provides that the Apprenticeship Com­mittee shall investiga.te t,hese matters so as to a·"ccrtain the likely requirements in future: but nobody in Queensland can say what our requirements will be ten years hence. ::'\oboclv ten :'Pars ago could possibly tell what r1nmber of plumbers \Yould bo required in Queensland to-day. If all our boys are taught skilled trades, it clocs not mean that rh<:· must work in Queemland. They can go to the other States. Tlw trouble iec that too rnany of our boys have not .an oppor­tunitv of learning a skilled trade, and I \\·ant' to sec t:re Bill wide enough h allow all bo' o \>·ha want to learn a trade an oppor­tunity. to learn that trade. It does not say that ~bccansP a bo~Y if'. born in Quccn:-:]ancl he has to stop in Queensland all his life. I w:-~nt to see ever:' boy haYe an opportunity of .learning any trade he desirAs, eYen thongh tho opportunities of employment 111

that trade are restricted Anoth('r thing 1\ hi eh militates against boy~

learn in~ trade_~ is ·the discrc:panc.:- in 11r1y¥ rnent b{_:t,wcen ski11Pd h1 bonr nud nn:dziliecl labonr. Thl~ difference is so ~rnall iu Inany case~ that thr:re is no inccntiYc in thP extra, amount of monov he \Yill get for a bo·· tn become "pprcnticcd to a skilled track. I WD1dd in:st lik0 to n1cntion one in:-taJ:re. \"hich happens to be iu conncctiol! \Yith sEgar-n1ills. An un~killcd 1\orker in a sugar­mill "Cts. saY, 2s. lid., a fittc'r 2s. 3~d .. a.nd a b1 ~C"k~mith 28. 4~d. an hour. Tlw-rc is not nnwh in('entiYe for a boy to bc-couH? a .~killc'tl tradc~n1an if he is only goin£t to E!'Ct l~d. Ol' 2,.1. an hour lT!:Ol'C in \Yagcs aftt'r l;Ut.tinc; iu four or fiye ~ 7 cars to becon1e a skillC'd 111111.

Hon. ):f .. J. KTRW:i.X: l~on kno\v t,hc rNi~SOn for that. TIH"' 111ill hand Joes not work all the yea.:t roun{L

Mr. MOORE : In all these cases the unskilled worker has the bigght union, and the>refore he has the biggest say in fixing his wage.

Tho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \\~ORKS: You do not say tha,t the unskilled labomer gets the biggest wage.

Mr. ::VIOORE : I do not, but he gets within l~d. or 2d. per hour of what the skilled n~an get•::.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: He has to liYe.

:\ir. MOORE: He hae to live, but we are talking a bout the question of induC"ing boys to become a pprenticeF a.nd not be unskilled tracl'''m<'n, who may be thrown out of em­ployment at a moment's notice. I want to cce eYery boy giv<m an opportunity of learn­ing a. skilled trade, and, if he has not the opportunity in Queensland to do so, he should go elsewhere. I think that the incen· tiYe need·> to be made greater.

Another strange thing in the Bill is tha.t it departs from the previous policy of the· Government, and permits a. boy to get a bonus if he works well and passes his exam­i,ation. That is a principle we have always been arguing for on this side, and it has alwa~·s been fought a,gainst by the Govern­ment. w.ho have said before that, if one man works better than another, ho ,~hould not be paid more-they should both b<> on the same leYel. ::'\ow, if a bov works well and passes his exan1ination, proving himsi•lf efficient he is to be paid for it. In this case he is going to get 5 per cent. extra salary. There aro other wa);; of doing this. In some cases rho term of the indentures is to be reduced >o that a bov can bBcome a skilled worker more quickly: We want to see these incen­tives put for1' ard, so as to givo a boy some inducement to work harder and to study to become efficient because he is going to get 'omething out of it. \\'e know that prin­ciple has been violated before. :r,nd that, no matter how efficient a man has been. he has onl:.- il"Ot the same pay as the inefficient man. I am e-lad to see that the Government are now departing from the cast-iron policy which thev have pursued all these years and \Yhich has been suLh a failure. A boy will now discover that there is something to work for. and, ;-:hen he becomes a journeC'man, the Arbitration Court will rule that he has to b,, paid bv rosult''· If wo initiato that nolicv, it is going to be botte1· for the \york"Cr., ard it: will mean more production in the State

I lo0kcd fonYard to the Bill boca.use I thought it was going to make the position n:nch e~sior for boys to b''como skilled tl:ldesmen; but I lind that there is no "'lHtn~nteo that tho restrictions are goint:"'" to be lifted in any wa" whatever. It is pos­"'ible that ihn ~Jini~:tcr may bo able to open the door a little bit wider, but to m 0· mind rhe Bill does not go far enough. I would like io "eO these restrictions liftccl in every lJC,ssible ·way. I kno'··,~ from my cxpc1·icnce in tho comJtr, tha,t there arc a gre" t number of peo}1lc who want to h;wo their boys rtLfJrentir-'ed, bnt ncarl;~ evei~:Dno is barred

" the resirictionc, under the Arbitration and the bo··s ar· put into r)lavs thev

not want to g-o into. l had hopes that thr Bill wonld have opened the door con­~id(·l'ablv wider, 60 that bovs. w-ho aro anxious t,) lca.n{ tr!ldcs \\ould ha.\·c an opportunity (rl t~oing : bnt this Bill does not go far enough in that direction. It also does not;

1vlr. J1or;we.]

uo Apprentic,•,,hip Bill [ASSl~:\IBLY.] Apprenticeohip Bill.

go far en011gh in tcchnicnl training. 'vhich I believe in. It seems to me that bovs .,-bo ._:_re not ablf' to secure that tcch11ical tfaining through living at di~btnccs w.hcro it is not rwailable will hasc ob>tades placed in thei1· wav. \Ye know that ,ometimEl' there are more applicant" than ther-e arc vacanicc·, for apprcntic~s, and I suppose ]t is only natural that preferonce should be given to thn3c boys who have been in a position to get tC'chnicaJ training, and so it is going to rnak0 the position of boys in the country v;ithout those opportunities rather hard.

The SE~RETAR'. FOR PUBLIC VYORKS: The boy traiucd in the country is verY often a bcttc1 h·adosrnan, because he has 1nore diverse• v·ork and n1oro opportunitie": for developing initiative.

i\Ir. :\lOO RE: If he has the opportunity: hut if there are Yacancics for a certai11 nurn~ ber only-say, fifty-and the number of applicants is greater than that limitation, I hope the country boys will have the same opportunih of becoming apprenticed as the boys \\ho happen to hdve tho advantage of liyinu \vhcro the"~.' can get training at a tcehr{i"al college a"'s well as practical training· in the workshop. It seems to me rather a dnngcr that y;hcn the bo.v-; a1·~~ b,'ing sple>ctPLl di~crin1j11ation rnav he used in fayour of the one.. who the Apprenticeship Committee ibink haYe the best opportunities for train­ing. It does not by a113T rneans follov- that becansc the technical colleges and biggest worbhops happen to be in Brisbane, the lraiuing here is more efficient. It is quite poscibh, that the opportunities offering in the country for practical training will be ;rcatcr. Will the Minister be good enough to say whether provision is made for the one­man shop to take an apprentice? :Most of the Arbitration Court awards provide that only one apprentice shall be employed to a certain number of journeymen, <>-nd in the country districts, where the employer is very often not ablto to find work for a journeyman. will he be able, where he works himself, to take an apprentice? ..

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS : The Arbitration Court makes provision for that ..

Mr. :\IOORE : There is a danger of the unions endeavouring to keep certain trades close corpor,ations, but '\\:e want to give our boys the opportunity to become apprenticed to trades even wh<:>re the court has imposed a restriction. At the present time we know there are restrictions, and there is nothing in this Bill to remove them.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS : There arc employers who will not take as many apprentices as the awards allow.

Mr. MOORE: I am not concerned with that question just now. I know that in some cases employers do not take the number they are permitted to have; but there <>-re many ca.sec in which they want apprentices, but are not allowed to have them because the court has imposed restrictions. Those are cases where the bovs have verv often better oppOl'tunitic'< of securing efficient training from the employer himself, and it is such bovs as those for whom I want to see pro­vision made. Unfortunately, this Bill does not make a .. ny general rule for such cases, although, of cours·e, there may be exemptions for individuals. Such a measure as this should be wide enough for a boy in the country who wants to get into an occupation to become apprenticed and get the proper

[Mr. Moore.

traunng. The l\Iini~,ter hin1self practicall: arhnits that. owing to the trainin~· he will p:r't in the ccnu.try. he ·will po~sibly bo more c·flicicnt than the bO\ in the town. 1Yho ha' not eo much persona!" imtruction.. \Vhy. then. r;ot gise hin1 the opportunitT of going in for that trade?

The SECRET.\HY FOR PcBLIC \YoRKS: TJ1cre arc no one-man shops.

Mr. :\IOORE: I am not talking· of one­Did n shops in the building trade. I kno;v thnt in that 1rndt~ there are no ono-nHlll shop!", bul in the countr.v there 1~. pcrhap~, one rnan v.-ho doc;j the phunbing ancl build­ing and everything else. I am talking about tinsn1ithing, sadcllcring, &r.

The S1•cCRETARY FOR PrnLir IYORKS: There is nothing to prcycnt those n1en fl·onl havin!'_; <Jl)prcnticc,, no\.Y.

Mr. MOORE: "Cp to the present time the0' have been prcYcnted, and I cannot see \<here thls Bill is going to remove that diffjcultv. I kno·w that under son1e a\Yard~ men h.r~·o not been allowed to employ a boy. Som: of the principles in the Bill arc excel­lent. bu• it does not go far enough. The principle of endeavouring to educate the pn1ployers through comn1ittecs to the respon­--ibility of taking their full complement of apprentices and the principle of educating 1 hem to train boys for their future require­tllcnts arc exf'ellent principle'~ and I agree that in a propcrh· equipped shop the emplo~·er should b~ compelled to train appror,. tices. \Ve knmy that the~ unions are dead against the employment of a certain JJumher of apprentices. and I hope the .. Minister will see his \vay clear to accept an .an1cndn1cnt to provide for the employment of boys m one-man shops.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC \YoRKS: The unions have assisted in fonunla ting this apprenticeship scheme ..

}\fr. }\100RE: Thev h;;yc also rcsi .. sted the employment of apprentices. I have not been following the working of the Arbitration Court for many year' without seeing how the unions have resisted the emplo: ment of apprentices. I think it was a Labour Government that introduced an apprentice­ship scheme under the \Vages Board Aot in Tasmania last year. They recognised that it was a good thing for all boys to be apprenticed if possible, and irrespectiYe of any court they widened all the channels, and thus enabled a boy to become apprcn­ticf'd if an employer agreed to take him. That is a. good principle. Tasmania did that, not caring whether that bo:· was going to be employed next year or ten years hence .. The~ recognised that the boy would become a skilled tradesman and could go elsewhere. I rPgret very much that the Bill ic confined to th·• system that operates to-day. and does not seek to widen the doors at alL En>rything is left to the court. I would certainly haYe liked to see a much wider scheme.

:Yir .. G. P. BARNES (Wnncick): I \Ycl­corne the introduction of this Bill. which srcms to be a fair swing; round on the part of the Government. For a "'reat manv vears !here existe.d on their part ~r on the !1a·rt of the people behind them a very great anti­pathy to the employment of young life, aris­ing; largely from the fear of over-competition in cormrction with employment. For manv years this side of the House has been advoca­ting many of the principles-they are big

Appren6:eship Dill [14 AuGuST.] Apprenticc,lup Bill.

prmcip 1eo-rontained in this Bill. I take it tha• now the young life of the community is to haYc an opportunity of lY'ing equipped for lifc;-though it may certainly Dnly be an imtalm<>nt. I take it that, as the Bill is l>eing administered, certain questions will arise and certain suggestions will be made, and as is the rule in Queensland and has been for many a long day, an a1nending Bill can l:e brought in and matters can be adjusted. I certainly agree with the leader of thf· Opposition that thr Bill is far too restricted. If I '"ere asked to indicate what ihe win: ipal objection in regard to the I?iH Wfi', I would say that part in which no lil1ert:v of scleci io~1 is given. Thcr • is no fn•pdo!n £•ither for tho ernplo:ver to flnd his appn'nticc or for tho apprentirc to find hi.:3 {-'tnplo~·C'r. \Ye are importing int0 t'1e BilL ther(•fore, a provision contrary to thcLt v;hich has so much to do -,,-ith our life to·'h v. and which will interfere with plain ;;;ailin~. 1'o­da.v, if } JU require a n1an in cwy particular occupation) you go to a union and it pre­f'cri bcs for you. It would be much better for the lad and for his futuro if he found his own mployer, and the employer found his own apprc-ntice. \Vo all know-and you. Mr. Speaker, as an old businocs man realise­that an apprentice will make g·ood in one shop and be an utter failure in another. It is man·ollous how success attaches to the affinitv that may <>xist between an employer and hi's emplo:-ees. Too great a restriction should not he placed on either party. \ 7 cry oft·ell an en1ploy,_r 111ight desire to hav£> his ovYn .son o: daughter or ncphC'\Y or niece in hi,-, employ. If this Bill becomes law, that kind of chojcc ma:v be C'ntircly prevcnteJ.

It i> a very fme thing that this swing should have come about. One of the blob of our nc1.tional life is the fact that th· ro arc so rnany men IYalking -m_1r land who have no trdde or handicraft. If thev had the Dpponunity that this Bill is going to give, dti~ o~·dcr of things might ha n" been diffcr0nt. It is a kind of stnpid naerown<'SS that b:rs existed :in our circlP for nHlll\' vcars: that has prevented the young lif0 frOJ{) finding­-:;;.uitab1e cmplovn1rnt in our rnidst. I arn verv glad of the assurance of thr l\Iiniste1· ii1 rr'lpcct to the opportunities to b.• giYcn to apprentices in the small settlements in the country. There mig-ht be an employer in many places who is quit·• unable to engage the scr,,ices Df an artisan and ,,et one appren. tiee wDuld be most acceptahlo to him. I unclen,tand from the Minister that there would be no objection in that diredion so long . s an Award of the _\rbitr>tion Court j,s nor a bar. I am inclined to think t.hat this Bill ic more likelv to be over-administered than undcr-administored. It would be a good thing if the administration of the Bill was confined to the Executive Group and to the Aclvicorv Committees. If the necessitv arose. tb n the Adviwrv Committees could he inrrca~t,•d. "

I think the issuing of certificates is a verv fine idea. It will gi•,'c to the youn[; live's _,·ho may become apprentices a kind of hall­malk of character, and \Yill bt? a Yery frno introduction to them in tbe event of their mo.-ing from one sphere to anothel'. .

I think that thB Socretarv ior Public \'\-arks made a rema.rk as to the apprentice· ship material that we had to work upon.

'\Ve have verv finr• material [2.30 p.m.] indeed. The , hon. gentleman

stres6ed the importance of using that material. I feel that we are under a

1924-R

deliberate· and dircc·t obligation to c!D the verv bc,·-t we can for thP YOung life gTo',':ing up 'around m. It is the neglec-t of ~hat lift' in the past that ha> filled and thrt~ IS hlhng to-clav manv avenues and spheres 01 hf0 that are of an 'c·xtrcmelv doubtfnl character. I hope in particular that the age will bee pro­perly regulated. I think the age for the employment Df a Jnmor has heretofore beei: sixiPcn vPru·~. ..:\ bov rcachP, the ag(~ ut four-teen.~ leaves ~chooi. r;nd is thrown upon the world: and during the years he is \nJit· ing for enlJ)loyrncnt he bcco1ncs in nuu:1y instances a derelict. l think that the Bill can be imprm·cd. I feel that it is the cli.'­pnsition of tlw country 1o lYit'Ct a~ actu~l n0cessitY which exist·,, to-dn:y: to takt' Jn hand tlle lad or o·id when they leave sch(JOl and fit thcn1 for ;ornc vocrttion in life so that thcv ,.,•ill aid in building up thr~ country of thc~r birth, and at the ':an1e tin1c equip themselves for the highest and best puq\ojes.

l\Ir. l\L-'.XvYELL (Too won(!): ThP Sccrc>­tarv for Public \Yorks, -when <SfWJking a.t the initiatory 'tage of this Bill. tres,cd the point that it v a~ .th~· result of the ddlbPrn­tions DE rcrr{_\S('ntatlVC'f' of c•rnp]o~·crs allt1 cmplo,·eo,. I do not. thiuk that a nyhoLh will clalrn Owl the Bill JS rwt a nc•ce-sslty. nor '"ill he caYil at thP principle of the n1easu1'(". In n1y r)pinion it ecrtainly s~1ould r:..ot and ca-nnot b" n1ade part;- question.

The SecretarY for Public \\-orks may re: nwmbcr thRt at' the initiatory stage I stres~ed thP desirabilitv of C'J:npulsory apprentrcc· ship. On that' occasion the hDn. gentleman f.Did that it \Yfl"> con1pnlsory. I ha,·c n•all~cd since then that it is cmnpulsor~v on the part of emnlovers to take a. certain nnmber of apprei1tices in ccrtair! trades or calling>, but it is not compuh;n·,: 111 tlE~ man!l€1' In \vluch I mean' it shDulcl be. I a,;am etrcss the point to the hon. gentleman. ber.:lu3e, .as t~e leader of the Opposition has sard, tlus Brll doe" not go far cnoug.h. \Ye arc going-.- along in the same old slrp-shod way. \o\ e are leaving to the boy the right. to say whether he will learn rr trade or calling; yet we are ccmpelling t.hat same bo,- to learn re_ading, Yniting. and arithmc_tic. up to a ccrtan1 ag~~ with a view to qua!Ifymg for the ba,ttle _at life. That onlv tl.kes him one stage. ·Ln· doubtedlv it g~,·es him a gwunding that is absolutPfv c.'3f3Cntial; but it is the func>l1on of the G'overnmcnt to [!;O one, two, or three step:" fnrthcr if necessary. and. ~1.y to the boY, '· \Yith a yjcw to nHtlnng you_ a ftr~t-rlass n~set for the State, ~.-c are ,po111g to make vou a first-class tradesman. In this Bill si.!Ch an opportunity is not given.

Mr. GLEDBOX: Conscription?

:\ir. l\L'I.X\YELL: If it is necessary in the best interests of the State, why not? The hon. member for Ipswich has practically admitted the principle Df conscripi.ior; in the education of boT'S and g-irls; and 1f lt lS

nPcc~sarA; to ha,:c conscription in that cor~­lllA'dion.' hu\Y nn1eh n1ore ncce~,,.ary is. 1t to have it so as to make b<Jys and Q'Irls better fitt0d to fight the battle Df life than thev arc ut the present time?

T!J,, S·:cu .r.IRY FOR PrBLIC \Vomcs: Don't ,-ou think it js an obligation on employers to train boys to carr:: on industry?

Mr. :YIAX\YELL: I do not want the hon. member to trY to misrepresent what I am saying. 1 haYe always emph~sised the neccs­·itv for makrng boys and guls bett0r fitted for the battle of life. I realise the re,ponsi· bility of the employer, and so dDes the hon

Mr. Maxwell.]

242 Apprenticeship Bill [A'3SEJrBLY.] Apprenticeship Bill.

gentleman. becanse he has provided in the llrll that they arc to be compelled to train !JOys. There arc certain tradc'i that bovs 'nil not bo associated with. \Vhat moi·e lwno~uablo tFade or calling could one be n~socJatc,d wtth th~n th9 building trade? Yet, a rnend of nnne obJected when I sug~ gcsted the cl< sirability of baYing his son taught the building trade. He wanted to make him a banker. That boy leamcd tho bmldmg trade, and to-dav he is a master builder, and he is very glazl that he did learn 1 he bmldmg trade. There is no more inde­pendent man than the tradesman.

Tho SllCHETARY FOR PrnLIC \Y OHKS : The ::-.; azaronc was a carpenter.

_ :\Ir· .. JVI_AXWELL: I do not want to bring i)ur Savwur mto the qucqion. but I should hko the hon. gentleman to follow se>me of Jlis teachings. I do not want to introduce any heat into this discuc·-ion and I want to help the Minister to mal~e the Bill a flrst-class n;easure. and one that will bel p

·to make hrstory m QucenslanJ. \Ye haYO made history in other directions, and I can sec an opportunitY for the -Minister to lead the way in the ma-tter of apprenticeship.

If the Yarions Group Coumittecs that are to be appointed arc going to adopt a 'ystem tha~ has been in operation in the past~that 1s, a ~J 'jtf~n1 of rotation sin1ilar to '·"hat th0 unions have to-daY-then it is 21 bud systen1. I a1n glad to have an assur~ fence from tlw hon. gentleman that that is not his intention.

If I may say so. the ::\Iaster Painters' ~~s~oc_iation, ''"hid: 1s an adjunct of the tnnld1ng tra.dc, d!cl everything possible in rr-gard to a.pprcntlces. They were prepared to allow a boy to go two or thre times a ":cek to a tc,:::hnical college i o receive instruc~ t1on there. I arn not going to detract from the good work th~ t the technical colleges are <lomg; but, "hrle a boy gets a certain nrnonnt of trannng at the tC'chnical coll0ve there is .n certai11 ainonnt of it tha·t is 1~of ns practtc:d as that ,_dlich the bov would re~ eiYe outside. The As~ociation ~ realises ~hat the only wa\ to properl:,- equip boys ,or j,he battle of hfe 1s to make them good :radr;;;,n1Gll. rrhcy arc prepared to co-operate m_ every ,_,-ay po~sible to accomplish that '>l1JOc-l. The- patd the bo ,' foe·- to the Technical College, and did all that was poss1ble. but I am aehamcd to sav that ~-cry fc,w bo:·s ,. ould romc along ar1~! sign Indentures as appronhc•:;;, The- attitude taken up by the _,Associat1on \Ya': that it was no .good for a boy to t.:t.ke up a trade or ealhn7 lllllcss ~c 'Yas prep -red to be inclen­tu.n•d.. Thrrc IS a Yie\' point in connection '\'th m dentures. that I should like to stre' '· 1. nder the hoadr_ng of " ApprPnticeship " tlw dause 1n the Brll dealing \Yith the cmploy­lDPnt of minors Ftatcs-

_" After the pa"ing of this Act no IT:.Ino~~ shall be c-1nploved or C'llg-agcd ia n,ny of th0 trn_dcs or jndn~t ,•jps io \Yhlch tms _Act appllc"', except subject to the C?nrhl.Ions of_ apprcnti.-.cship or proba­tJor:_\}llp hcre111 contained.''

to n1c tlu:~t thcrD is n po• ';ibilit v of arc: not HHlcnturcd, and 'Yho rnav

J}clyp. been VYOrki11g ai: their trade or calling ~or l \\·o o.r thrcP ;:cars, ha..-ing to get out Into ~trc~t. as 1t ,.,·ere, -.vhen this Bill is

~n1o opcr.n :ion. I \Yon1d a ··k the If that mll be the position.

The SErRETAHY FOR PrBLIC \YOHKS: :'\o.

[Jlr. l[a:-cwcll.

::\Ir. ::YL\:S::WELL: I am glad to hear that, i>ecause tt sr;ems to me that the Bill may b,, rntNprcted lll the way I haYe indicated. c\s the l0adc•r of the Opposition has pointed out_ tlw Bill rs not sufhciently definite_ I reaJi,e the chfticult,· of the :\Iinister in the introduc­tiOn of a measure ~uch as thi·~.

The SECHETARY FO~ PrBLIC \YOHES : It is more of a Committee Bill. I cannot explain llw ~-anous clauses of the Bill on the second n'achng.

The SPEAKER: Order 1 I -·,ould point oat to the hon. member for ToowonC(' that he may deal with th0 principles of the Bill on the second reading, buf not the details.

:\fr. -'\L\:S::WELL: Yes, I appnciate the puHhon. There arc certain .)rincinles cnnnciatrd in thi~ Bill. and I ha..-c~ to st~·e~s certain clau~t~s to bring hon1(' to the -:\Iini·h't' the ilnportancc of accepting rea~onable al1H1 ndrnents 1n Conunittee.

The SECRETAHY FOil I'eBLI\ \YonKs: I alwaYs arccpt reasonable ,-~n1endnrent~. I ha,·c nevE::t~ once r..:-fuscd a reasonable a1nendrnent..

:\Ir. J\lA:S::WELL: I realise the loose met hoc! which has been adopted under exi ct­iug conditions, ·where a boY \vork;; tvvelYe mcaths at a trade or calllng and somebody ebe nwy offer him a few f'hillings a week extra if he will p;o to work for him. The hoy is pitched abotJt from pillal- to post. with the rc'nlt th~t, when his apprentico,hip has cxpll'ed, he 1s not a tradesnwn or L. eraft"'­nwn, but only an ordinary labourer and knows verv lit tie about his \York. The intro­{luction of a Bill such as this \Yill '2lin1inate that dil1iculty to a certain extent.

_The leader of the Opposition. in dealing ,-:llh the qqc stion of examina ricms. also stress~d the de irabilitv of the ;\Iinister fully explaining the po .ition. and I hope tha't \Y~l·Cn \YC rpach the Cornmittcc stage tho :\linistcr will do that. As the leader of the Opposition has alrearly pointed our. 1t is not lH~cp:-:sarv for a bo.v to pass .an exan1ination unlr-s the Mini_,tor requires him to do so; hut in that case he n1u~t snbn1it a certifif'ato fron1 hi~ Stat,c~ school teacher tha~ he has reached a ccrt jn ·tandard. Hen. l!H!mber'3 know full >vell that there are cc-rain bovs who arf'- son1cwhat badnyard in their educ~.­tirm. Doe, the Minister really mcm that, unlc . those· boYs->Yho ma, nevcrthclr,-­shcn'{ a peculiar ~apti1-ude for,, certain trades

callin",'s-ean produce such a ccrt-Tficatc, 1 are to be debarred for e..-cr fron1 e-nter­ing a ~killed trade, and are to be thrown on the unskilled labour market?

SP:RI'T \HY FOI< PeBLTC \Yo: :;:_cc : If a },o,- not ·cl the fourth-cla·" 't:mclarcl h: th0 tin1c hac; rcnched fourteen Yt'nrs of t1 p:r I EUll ~orr,y for hin1. .

::\Ir. ::VI.\X\YELL: The hmL meL lJ(' sorr:; for hint, and so \Y(~ do not ~;·lnt to n1a kc f•f bo~ s \\·ho 1118-r n1akc <-..:: if thr-:v lun·e thC opportunit·, bu~ ;r-ho Hl'O

lil- cxrv-,ri­.:.:.nu~n \\·ho

frmn over-

ba.cb:ard Pt schooL I knmY ence that smne of the finest (•ver hanrllt cl tools. :::onv' o_: th0rn s~as. clll<l [lwl it absolutely prr ' an o~·flinarv f'XHn11nation·. I n _.li.;;,c it is ju~;t as ~,Cn that VY0 chould lln': star ,-hnd of cdnrati0n for

: but at the san1o titne Lo if he C~lnnct nas;-i the f'x~n-.:;inn.tion.

nnrl do r·nt force• hiffi into tbc l'.~l~k"' unf~killcd Jabour if th2r0 is To n jt, That \Yonld be a wTong to do.

WEights and Jleasures Bill. [14 .ll::"GL'ST.] TVeights and Jfr.:lsures Bil:'. 243

would like to get from the :\Iinistcl' a little inforrnation in regard to his represellta­tlrc~ npon the ApprPnticeship c·mnrnittE'C. I would like to know whethel' he desires double reprPsentation. The Minister is to Le one of the n1ernbcrs of the Con1mittee~ and he rcsen ~s to himself the right al•·o to O]>point somebody dse. It is quite true that undc·r the Bill the Ministr'l' will only have a ca~ting YOte.

Tho SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC \YORKS: I am 1101 on the Committee at all.

:\h. MAXWELL: I should sav that the :\Iinister has the right to appoint 'two repre­'on+oti,·es, but I would lik~ to point out the unfairness of his attitude. \Yhv does he want 1 ,-.o rcpre>- ntatives? There ·is the repre­eontatin' of the employers and the represen­tative of the employees, and the Minister appoints as c:hairn1an a n1an who will ha\? it lasting vote but no deliberative vote. That is a fair proposition, but he also has the 1·jght io appoint another rc11resentatin~. Tlwre is the union repre" .ntative, or the Trade' Hall representative. and the repre­~Pntativo of the Employers' F 'deration, and there is nothing to prC'Yent. a certain section from pntting th0'ir heads together and forcing their opinion through and so doing practically clw t theY like.

Th SErW1'ARY FOR PuBLIC 1'\'0RKS: Do vou me an that employers would put their he.ads t·og('t her -;

:\Ir. ::11AXWELL: I c mnot for the life of 1nc H'O ,vhy the hon. gf'ntlcn1a11 n11t~ to ha\·e the appointm~-~nt of two repn'sentativcs.

:\lr. Dr~~T_-\X: 'ThPro is <;;uch a thjng as J ~nhlic poli<'y as \Y·ell as practice to be con­-idnc-cl.

::IIr. :\IAX\YELL: I hope the hon. gentle­man 1vill l"' able to tr•ll us something about that.

'J.'h · SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC \VORKP: I will <e·ll von all about that in Committee.

:\fr. ::llAXWELL: I shall be very g-lad if th_ hon. gontlPnlan \\ill. Thi~~ Bill i8 opening up a 1w-rr era foe bo.!,-c.. nnd I agre"~ to a, cut ~in 0xtent YYith what H leader of th" Opposition said. \Ye haYc the opportunity of 1naking it a \Yonderful n1easurc. I stress 1 his point to the hon. gentlernan. \Yhat js the good of a n1casure t ilc' thi~ unless ou arc going to compel-call it co11scriptio~l or ~-, hatcYPJ' :. ou like-bo~-s and t;irl8 to be tnincd ·; If you compel them to be tuincd, then thc-,· will become better fit(, d to fig-ht tlw hattk of life. and if \Ye eau succeed in doing that, ilwn we arc goiug- to do som<' u.:ood. It will be in tho best int'•rc!'ts, not cm]:.- d the boY'S conremcd, but of the counnunity gcnerJ.lly.

Ou'''tion--Thrrt the Dill be 110\V rc~d a ~c~ o~1d tinw-IJnt aud flil~";Cd.

'l !H' considcrrttion of the Bill in C'on1n1ittc· ~ 1.1dc an On-LT of the Dav for Tu: -.day

xt. ·~

Y\'EIUHTS _\C\'D :viE_\Sl7I\.ES BILL. SECOl\D RF.AIH?\G.

TIH· :omcr:ETARY "OR P'GBLIC \HmKs 'vY. Forgan Smith. J[ac'·ay): \Yhen

this Bill at. an 0;;_,rlicr st~,gc I thnt it was onf, to consolidate

1912 llJcd 1~2) Act'. ~nd ' hirh con-fr· 'rldition l that ha Ye

be<'n f('l1!1d or frorn the CX}l('Y'iCJIC:-:' g: the ~-\cls mcntivned.

The fil'st alteration in th-; flxistiEg- law }-:; a provision for tho wholP thing tr be ('0Il­troll0d by a State Dcpartnwnt. Umkr th<' 1912 Art local authoritv area~ were defined and the !oral anthorities in thc'e area< wc•I-e expected to administer the \Y· ig-hts and :\IPasnrcs Act. That c; as .found to be som.:­what nnsatisfnctor.' from various point~ of vie-w. Fir~t of .dl. hecanse in tnan~ nr<'as the local authority haJ not the "··Jiiiprncnt to do thc' 1vork that was necessnrv to cany out the Act in its fnllc-t pc>'sible' rnca.ning; and 1t ''- aR found df,o;;irablc to relie\-•' the loul authoritic'· Df tlw c oblig-ations, .end to r1ppoint their inspectors n:=; State inspertors. rrhat \'a·, clone undf'!' the 1923 .-:-\et. and it h.ts been found to work nr·- 'atisfactorilv. \Ye haYe taken from the local authorities con­cerned nny cr1uipmcnt they had. anJ haYc (·ll1ployccl l heir in~pectOL'S, \\·ho h:J rl thl' nccc-.:­Sury knowledgL' for the JlO'ition. Transfer­ence has already taken phcc from the local ant.horities to the Dejlartmcnt of Public ·works. The Chict In,pector of l\Iachitwry ha.s been ap]Iointf'd C'hief Inspector undet' the Act. 'Cnder thc; old Act the iuspector,' duties >YPrP confined to testing-. weighing, or l_tea-;uriug jnstrurncnts, and issuing c6rtificate;.; to persons \Vho owned those instrnments \Vhc-ro the.~.- \rcrc correct, and issning instruc­tions where the weights were not .found to be in accordance with the Act. "\Ye fonnd that dirl not carr,, out the purpose' of Parlia­n1ent in a11 a.dr<l_uatP ~ay. bctan6c \YC

real i~-0d that. correct balances, or correct sta.ndard::;, rtrc necc.;sar:v for the protection of the g-c'neral public; and it was fmmd that in n1an~v case:;:: whil0 the trader n1ay ha Ye rorrcct scal0s or measuring inst.run~tt\nt.-;, an,v fraud th:JJ \HL:i pcrpctra tt'd waB nc..r. so rnuch becaust_~ the scales \Yer-c a.t fault :.s thP method of weighing. Any pro ecution thac IYa" initiated took a YCr'- circuitou~ fonn, and had to be " prosecution for fr;cud under ihe Criminal Code. A great deal of unnece<­sarv circurnlocution wa, nJ,tachcd to tho "·h~le maiin. Under the Bill '''" opus~ to giYc the inspcrtors authority not to t-r•e that t.he '"eight,s and nlC'nsurclncnts arc in accord a nee with the Act. but Wf' give them anthorit:· to weig-h good~ exposed kr sale and to take 11rocr~cdings where tho~:' goods arl' not \vha1 t,hcy an• rcprc:;:cntr 1 to b 0 -

eilhcr in weight or n1PasnrcnH'ut. I think that is a dc~irablc thing, ::~nd a dr,;;irablc~ protection for the public. Another important feature about the Dill is the lovin:- dn\Yn of a ]winciple that all g-ood., wust to definite eights. That is to of an' C01'1n1orlit~­multiy;les o_f 1 lb.­tin cf jarn nnd that con.,iderecl desirable. The Bill h v,; clown that a tin of jam n1n~t rontain: the ·,1uantity .set out on tho la bd.

:\Ir. 1\IOORE. \Yill ihr·v lw lia\)l·~ ~f th·_ sell a tin purporting to Contain 14 OL?

The SECRETAR1: FOR PUBLIG\YORKS: Thr.v ha,-e to stipulate dofmitcly yvhat the weight is. 'rhen again, tho retailer 1nus!· 'tatc definitely to the purchaser '.dwt the weight of the g-oods is. \Ye know it is a com1non practice for pcr;;::on.· purrhasin>::, bacJn or chee'C' to 'tate the exact weig-ht 1 hcv require. and for the retailer to ~ay. "It is just a little> onr that weig-ht," and the cost of iho pnrrha~f' i~ 2d. or 3d. OYf'r what tlw purchaser intends to sp~nd. In that case the adual •,-,·pig-ht mmt be stipulai;:,cl. If a

,1eks for 3 lb. of an articl<·. and on ·weighed it is a fc1v ounces in·c,~ccss of

Hon. W. Forgan Smith.]

244 ·weights and .1Jeasures Bill. [.\SSE:\1BLY.] Weights m-cl 11,J, asures Bil!.

tlwt weight, the retailer must stipulate the E:xad \vcight of th-.! article. The same prin­eipk· applin in rer,ard to fuel. Up to the pre,_,.,.t time people hayo been purchasing fuel k· t.hc lo.od or tlH' half load. The Bill ~tipulc~+ '~ that a trader in that occupation Lm,t •.le the correct weight of the fuel 1 Jl'•_ hirn to the C'onsun1er.

That outlines the new principles which are contaiucd in tho Bill. Additional standards from the standards of the British Board of Trad·' !Jayc also been adopted and sot out in thi• BilL That is in accordance with the prac-tlc(· of t ht~ yarious States of the Corn­monwc1.11h. \Ve can go into those matters JllOl't' full·. in Cornmittoo, but tho features I haYC ontlinc;cl are thP n1ost salient in the Bill. The Bill '"ill be an a-dYantage to traders g0norally as well as to the public, and ;, "ell worthy of the support of hon. llll rnbPr~. I nO\V have pleasure in rnoving-

.. That the Bill be now r-ead a second " ;ETlC

)[r. :\IOORE (A ubirJny): This Bill goes COJl>iclcr, bly further than the Minister has !red '" to believe. l quite recognise that it is on!_,. hir, in man"· cases, that the public -lwuld haye protection. This Bill is to apply to the whole of the State.

The S'EC'RETARY FOR PrBLIC \VORKS : Yes.

:\Ir. ::\IOORE: If it is going to apply to the IYhc•le S'tate and not to certain districts, thf' )viini:'tPr mu~t recognisn that there are nlall\' t .-~·.::os in the countrv vvherc there is no po . .,~lbili~y of weighing~ firewood. Many

"' in tho coun1 r.v purchase firewood b;: .•.nd there is no place where the

( -..n weigh it. Th,, SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC VVORKS: If they

sell it by tho cord it is all right.

J\I r. 2\IOORE : The Bill sa vs that all coke ancl fm,wood must be sold ·by weight a1:d not Dv rncasurc. There are many cases 111

which. dwrc is no possibility of it being "' ci!!hul. Is it suggested that the wood ;;.honld he weiglH'd on spring balances, or

like that" It is rather ridiculous of wood, which ha Ye to last the

cm:mn'<. months, have to be weighed. on sma11 rnachincs. 'l_lhat is going to delay the Hlpplier, and increase the cost of tho article. To my mind, many things referred to in the Bill are impossible. The Bill is too hard on the individual. The Government brin~· in a. Bill proYiding that all weighing machincr.· must be tested. That is all right >0 long a~ inspectors can ~o round and do the tl• .ting; but there is a clause that pro­Yides that. if it is inconyonient for an inspc<'IDr t-o reach " particular locality. weighing rn;;chincs mnst b0 sent do1vn to whc1·. the ir,· P''ctor· requires them at tho o\vner'::.: exJ1Cnsc~nct at tho expense of the GoYt>nlmOnt. In 80me instance; it "·ould bo n big ordPr to -end a wci,;hing 1!1tll \\'Ci,e:;hinrl,' 5 c'Yt. to half a ton to any l' _Juired spOt. Y Pt t he• o>>'<nor i~ pu~ to th0 C'XP''llSO of sending that n1achlr:-~ to the in~p--r:tor to have it tested. Th~ re i~ aho a provision \Yhich stipulates

that n1a11 use3 a seak fer the purpos·' of produce or anv other eolnincdit;.. and thitt ccale has become def,~ctive thmugh wear or bv accident, that action constitute" a criminal offence. \Yhat about farmers selling their produce who use the Goyern· ment wcigl1bridges? Thev cannot state that tlF w• ights arc correct; ~-et they are liable

[Hon. W, Fm·gan Smith-,

to a penalty if they are not correct. The provisions are all very well when applied to small traders, but they arc going to cause a great deal of inconvenience and hardshi1~ if they are administered in the way they arc set down in this Bill.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC \VORKS: Rail· way weighbridges are subject to the same conditions as any other weighing machine.

i\lr. MOORE: Of course they arc, but, if it is found that they are defective, the individual celling his produce by contract over such a weighbridge would be liable to a penalty, although he would not know that the machine was defective. The pro­Yisions are too harsh.

Then take the case of selling such com· moditieq as benzine, turpentine, and volatile oils. It is set Dut that an individual selling such commodities in containers may be asked to open the containers and prove that the rDntents are as stated. I would like to sec the l\IinislPr go to some of the garagt·s

and ask to see the amount of [3 p.m.] benzine in tins that have not

been opened. I know what chance he would have of getting the informa­tion. There are no exernpt]ons. There a.re rnany cases in '"hich .articles are exposed ior sale where it would be impossible to carry out the provisions of this Bill. A man is liable to pr-osecution if he exposc3 u product for sale which has its weight marked upon it, if that weight i;; found to bo incorrect when tested. Take the case of hams. Here you hayc the weight stamped upon the commodity, but that is liable to fluetua tion during the hot summer we experience in Queensland. The sa1ne remark applies to cheese. butter, candles, and all sorts of thing-s which are affected by the heat, and which necessaeily decrease in weight. Here proYision is made that the man selling those articles is liable to prose· cution for having them under weight.

At 3.5 p.m .. :VIr. Dux~TAK (Gympie), one of the pn1:rl

of Tf'mporar:v Chairmcu~ reliev _·d the P.pr>;::krr in the chair.

'VIr. :\:IOORE: So far as I can see, the seller is placed in an invidious position if he accept:3 a package on '.vhich ls rnarkcd a p;iYen weight. If the' pa<-kers of the artich• ha,~e a regi~tered office in Quecn:;;land. the~· can g-i.-e a guarantee to the seller, but if tlw.Y ha\·- 110 regi~tcred office in Quet:msh.nd. thE' seller is taking a big risk. \V c kno"· there <HC quiL" a nun1l1er of foodstuffs in1portcd into Qucewdand and sold, the packers of which hn\"C' no rcgi-st~·rrd office in Queensland. Ir1 :-:,1ch casp-;:, the retailer can get no guaJ"_,ntcc. yet, if there is a \u.s in weight through clirnntic conditionf', they arc lik0ly 1 o b·_' pro.~ ·cutcd for a crirninal offence. The Bi11 i~ too d1·astic in the w·ay iu Yrhidi it is dr~cftt _l.

\Yith reg-ard to tlw appointment of a check \ 0T~hcr thf~ Bill pro,-iflcs tllat the own0r ~,lt:J Il provide ::lt the place of weighing· rea~Dn­ab1'.' board an(l lodging for the chock "-Pi;:' her. That prm·i ion will be most drastic if it j, <t<)pli-t'd to crcoin factories or chr:ese factorif-;;.. In those cases. if anvonc wants a check weigher, it i.'3 hi~ plact' ~to proYi·dc the board ar":l Jodg·ing·, and not th place of the owner. I quite understand ihat at a large coahnine. vrh0n a check weigher is put on. it is only rPLl~onable that accon1n1odation should be nrovic:lecl for him. \Yhcn a drastic Bill likc> thi' is made applicable to the whol: of

Weights and "1Ieasures Bill. (14 AUGFFlT.] Weights and ~1Ieasures Bill.

Qucc·lbhmcl, the position is likely to become {langf'rous. You pass au Act and make a man iia ble to prosecution, although he may L n 1

>C a'rare of the fact that he has com­mitted an offence. It means that the Act is 1wt ~oing- to be administered as it should be aL1ministcr0d. or it is going to rendPr the Enfortpnatc individual liable to a fine which he has no way of escaping.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS: If you .rro into a grocer's shop and a:;:k for a pound of che se, you have a right to get 16 ouncC's.

Ylr. ::VIGORE: :"Jo one disputes that at all. The Bill says "on -de!iverv." which is alto­g-cthl?r too .drastic wh_n ~vc rernPmber the climatic conditions experienced in Quecns­!eml, and the svstcm of deliverv followed in Queensland. when the man wh,; sdls is liable to prosecution for short weight, he should have some opportunity of proving that \Yhen hc> placed the g-oods on the van at the rail­\ a :v station they we·re in good order and of full weight. He should not be liable k> a prosecution because: when the goods reach rhcir destination, the containers do not con­tain tlw arnount that '\Yas in th~'m '\Yhcn ddivcred at the railway station. There arc mun:;· cases in which it \\:ill be quite impossible to carry out the provisions of this Bill, par­t1cL:larly in regard to Yo1atilc con1n1odities "'eh '" kcrosc'ne. The tins expand, and 'ln·inkage al'o takes place in many of these C'OnllllOditiPs.

The SECHETARY FOR Pt:BLIC \Y ORICR : Do you kno\\· that when petrol pumps were i n-·pected none of them were found corn~ct ·: That sho\\·s the necessity for testing them.

:\Ir. ::\100RE: I am quite in accord with the neceesity for having those machines tested and kept in proper order. \Yhen a man pa2.· . ..; for a thing he ~hould get what he pays for; but what I a.1n pointing out is that rnany of these provisions which \vi!! apply to the whole of Queensland arc too drastic. A lot of things in 1 he country a re sold on the weight when put into tho railway train, and p0ople should not be liable fo!· something .,, hi eh may happen when the goods are not i11 their control.

Hon. W. H. BAR=-iE:3: Y cry often shrinkage tab '• place.

:\fr. :'1100RE: I ha Ye seen manv a cheese shrink half a p-ound in ,,-eight before being dcliYerC'd jn Brisbane. The onns is :Put on the individual in cases where it should not be put. If the GoYermnent are going to make P''OYision that all scales shall be inspected, it is their duty to send round and have them inspected, and not place the l'e<::ponBibility upon thC' indiYidual of ha.ving it done. It mav be verv drastic indeed on IH?ople in outsid8 centres.~

The SECllETARY FOR l't:BLIO \VORI{S : \Y A ha ,.e not got inspectors in every district.

Mr. :Y100RE : It certainlv cannot be applied to all the outside plac<~--;.

I am in p;eneral agreement ith the Bill. but there are many new provisions in it whidJ are very drastic. I quite agree that when ft Jnan is 1nanufaeturing and putting· np articles for sak, it if' only right that he ehould put the net y;eig)lt on the tin, but I de not s0e vvhy the ret.:ilcr shoul.d_ be respon~ sible if he sells it in good faith and it is found to be deficient in \\·eight. 'Gndcr the Bill the onus is 1wt on the seller in that case, <md hD has to take the rr,,prmsibility. If a. n1an has a rcgi~tcrcd office and n1anu~

facturcs t.hc con11noditv here-. he can zi \·c a guarantee; bnt. if he~ has not a rcgi:.;tcrccl office. he cannot giYc a guarantee. or at any rate it will be no good.

There is nothing much in the BilL to be lleprecat:::-.1. I quite agree that ,..,,hfn a 1nan rays for a thing he ::hou1d get vduu LL' lHl~'S for; but I think there s.hould be amendments in some -of the drastic clause'. of thD Bill to enable the individual who acrs in good faith to have an opportunity of clearing himself if he is prosecuted. It is not fa.ir that a man should be placed in the position oi creating an offence and be liable fo1· prosecution for something oYer which he has no control. l~nder manv of the, c'J_:t.;;es a. man has no opportunity ,;,hatc~Ycr of t-ing hin1self, and it will onl5' lw a thing· to a111cnd the mca~nre in that dirt c-:-ir;:1.

Hox. W. H. BARXES (TT'ynnum\: I think the leader of the Opposition was JU'ti!ied in criticising some point"'- in this rneasure. l-Ie is quite right in stating that there are some unfair clausPs in it from the retailer's point of view. I would like to point out some of the dangers which exist and of which I haYe knowledge from my practical experience of trade.

One of the factors \Yhich a sc'nclcr of a cmn1nodity cannot control is the pillaging which takes place on the rail" ay<. If hon. members knew the extent to which it takes place in connection with many products sent to market, I feel quite sure that they would be astounded. Let me deal with two of them, for the sake of example. In the first place, take eggs-a subject which has been causing some consideration recently in the courts. I venture to s,av that no con1-modity is so much subject "to pilfering. I dare cay manv hon. members know how they are ma;·kececl' in cases with cardboard fillers. Y ery oftl'l1 you find that the bortom of the 'case has been prised open and a whole la.ycr of eggs remO\'C{l. Then ag~1__in. th.· >~me thin" is often found to hr,yc happ,,ncd .at the ~op. I suggest that the Miilister should take the trouble to find out frum the· Com­Inissioner for Railwavs what the clain1;;, against the Railway Department for pillag-­ing in transit a1nount to in a yr u·. The i'('~Ult '\YOtJld he Hll (_n,-('OlJC'llC'l'. ;_;_:;:-h:):_t2"h t!J(' ft~ur0s wou1d not represent all the pilfering that rakes place, because. if a package i~ carried by the department. rtnd the pillaginfi is not discov('rcd '\Yhen it rcachC's its desti­nation, you h-JYC no dain1 again.;;,t tlw ment. The 1os:<es b~- pillagiiY~' thousands of pounds a year. I arn no-:­to· sav that the r::~lhvav servants are rospo~l­;·ible_:_that would be most unfair, becatk·8 thu 1ncn in the departn1ent aro men of a s.pecia1 character, '\vho do their jobs

1

11on~st!y-b\1t, apparently, ~on1e 1nen cmp1o:,ed t;y tne departm,ent do not livP up t _, it'"; rracli-tions. It happens all the year in the case of eggs mostly \Yhcn dearest. \Yhcn indiYiclua~ h21 n~ 1ng in their own ,' ard3 aDd rgg:') the v c]o not trouble vcrv mJ.!ch. It oYrr which the sendc•r · hrrs not the :;;li;,dltC'~t cuntrol. anc1 it is quite possible to P"''' leg-is­lttion n:hich would re~ult in po::;itiYt: luln}::hip to a man who j~ engaged in h,_· de. Si1nil?l' Tcmarks apply to fruit, not onl~· c;n tLe r~ll­wavs. bnt also on stcan10rs. It 15 nn1nz1ng to ~·ea]lse how often it j~ pilfere-d. \Yhcn you. ha YC time. )fr. Deputy SpL 1ker. I ,- oulr-f .;:nrrQ.'P::.:.t rhat YOU shon1d g·o round and \Yatch the.._ c ~r· of ~fruit cmning in, and yen '"iH

Hon. Tr. H. Ban,c:s.]

24G Weights and Jleasnres Bill. [ASSB~IBLY.] Public Curator, Etc., Bill.

fmcl that a ycr,y largp percentage i~ pilfcr('rl in tran~it. -, T\fr_ K~LEO: That is part of the dhics :Jf

( orrunun1 rn.

Ho:s. \V. H. BAR:\'ES: Its ethic·' are pretty bad if that is part of them. I "'m 1 "t h-•rc! to n1ake an!"- l barge If the da~ :-ltt)ng:::. had not prcyentcd nu1ny hon. nH~n~ hc1 oppo . .::ite front b0ing here, 1 y-ould ha,-r, iikecl to etsk the 01 \Yhat they thought. Lmt they are nDt. hero this afternoon to tPl1 u-;,

lVIr. RIOH.D.\N : If any hon. nlctnbcr:-: ou thi·"· side were eqnal tO y:Jur [H'Oll1P. t1 'Y ;ould be pretty hard to beat, if that i­\Yhat ~·on 1neruL

Ho:-;_ \Y_ J-L BAR:\ES: I assure the hon. gelltL'LHlll that I do not 111e"1n anyllting of the kind.

-:\Ir. BArBER: The hon. gentlenu.tn insin:v~­.atcd it.

Ho:s. \V. H. B.,R:\'ES: I shall toow lc•an that.

:Ylr. HIORDAK: Ye,_ The hon. g·:• .tlcman 1

1 cl !JC'tt r get awa:. frmn that. b(•(·,u-~' l1, i.., nn dangerous ground. l-Ie should. drop th, t like a hot spud.

Ho:s. \V. H. BAR::\ES: My friend cug-g- 1' that I should drop that " like a hot spuJ:' That is not a 11arliamentarv term_ If the l\Iinioter were to go to the State Produce Agency and ask for the figures in connection \\ith tho purchases that have been made out­siclc this StatP-I am not saying they should not make purchases outside the State, and I ::un not trying to insinuate they are doing something they ought. not to do-they could not carrv on otlH'r<.vise-and he examined tlw inYo~cf: of weights rcceiYed, he would find that it is the rarest thing in the world for any purci1ase to bear out the weight stated, or, in other \'.orcls, there is a shrink­age in Lanslt. The sa1ne thing applies to the products of this Slate. If this legisla­tion is going to inflict a penalty on the n1an who H'nd;, that prvrlucP. thC'n that lcgis]a-1 ion lEa:;: prove very di~asl rDl!S indeed. ..._..\ ''·Pnder is not ;_; lways careful in his packages, and the'. may be torn. In the handling of whPat. if a bag bccon1c~ torn, the grain run out like shot. and vou cannot possibl": get at this end \'.'hat was e·cnt at the othm:. l beli,·vc "·ith the leader of the Opposition !hat it is only right that manufacturers should _not put into a package loss than what t 1

l0Y . .;:H)' it contains. No n1an has the rig·ht be taken down, nor should the c be taken clown bv anv under-lt,and bc~si!tcss. _ Difticul~ics ."·ill~ crop up in t tH'_ , Lmmstratwn of tht'· BJll. If a package \Ylnch 1:;:; supposed to f'0ntnin 16 ounces is found to contain Dn]y 15 or 15~ ounce';, then th~ P'- r-.:•)!L \vho puB up that pa-ckage i:'> !Hlllt:-- d an offence. and should be prosecuted for it. In our legi,s!ation we should seo that we do not do the unfair thing by thrc com­l11Ul1lt"·· because v:e n1U\i find that this is going-· to he one >I!Df those Bills which will be ver:· difficult to administer. I would like to repeat what I said in connection with .auoth0r Dill this n1orning-a 1ncasuro of this kind is going to be verv helpful in the direc­i ion of digging the GOvernment in, because it will rncan extra billets-

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC \Y ORKS : There ;;-ill be no extra billet·- created under this Bill.

Ho::-;_ W. H. IL\RNES: I am yory pleased to hear 1t, and I am glad that the :Yiinister

rHon. W. H. Banws.

savs this Bill is to Le the exception in that reganL ln all the other Government mcasu rL's such has not bPen the case~.

The SECRETARY FOR PT1BL!C \VORKS: The Gm-ernmcnt took over all the local authorit7 inspectors anJ ~'quipment last year. ~

HoN. \:Y. I-L BARKES: Evidcntlv th, ~linister-I an1 not ~urprif'cd at h;In-is showing a n1ore excPlJ.ent wav. If Il~ \~' a11pointrncnts arc n1ad0. the l\Iinistcr will come alon:- later ancl tell the House that hc made a mistakt' when he made his stat·e­nwnt.. I shall have plea-sure in supporting the Bill. but I shall have one or two amend­ments to- suggest in certain directions ,,-hen it. reaches ihc Con1n1ittcr~ stage.

Question-That tlw Bill be now read a f:r'rond time--put and passed.

The considf ration of the Bill in Committee was made an Order of the Da \ for Tue•<:a; n~t. ·

P\'BLIC CCHATOR ACT A::Y1EXD:\IE::\T BILL.

SECOND READTXG.

The ATTORI'\EY-GEJ\'ER \L (Hon. .J_ ;\lullan, F/i/1(/crs): I \\ ould like to mention ihat sincP this offie~ was csLI.blitillcd in 1916 it has made rapid progross. The upital. "hi eh amounted to £70.000 in 1916 has now reached the snm of £5C3.000. The gross 1 ecciptJ in 1916 wcrf' £2Jl.OOO. wlwrf'as for tlw yc•ar ended 31st Der0rn brr last they \\·ere £702.000. rr]WL SC'nting an increase of £421.000 in 0ight Y", ars. The nurnbcr of ,,·ills fi],.cl in the office in 1916 ;vas 1.811 and in 1922. 2,936. The number of wills held in safe cus­tody at the present time totals 12,351. Thes0 figures show the rapid progT("'iS the office i~ n1aking and the advantage whi< h is bc!n~ taken of it. The profits for the first ~-ea.r tot a !led £1,400 and last year £6,400, making the aggrcc;ate profits of the ofrice from it< inc,eption £31,000. The proftts are not- lar,•P, \Ye are not out to make a proot by the Public f'urator's Office.

T\lr. VowLES: It is too tall a sLtcmcnt to ma,ke.

The, ATTOR~EY-GE:\EIL\L: K,,,-,rtlE'­Jc:-.') it is nccc:"~arv to have a rescrYe fund to l•lCct los .. cs \vhich no doubt will fioOJWr or latnr occur_ The Bill is one that might. lll' llf'lter discnssccl in Committee thrtn at thi .. stage, so I ,,·ill (:DlltPnt 111~sclf Ly nu~rclv f,;iving r: ... brlcf ~ur'.:ey nf the proposed anF'O<· rncnt . .:;. The flr~t arnrndn1cnt is in < -Jlln0ctio11 11ith the n:tnrn...:; in insolYf'llC'Y. Th" Public Curator has no11~ to send rc'turns in inf'o1· Yency to the R<•gistrar of the i')qprPml' Comt eYery six tnontht'. \YP ronsid.Pr this is Hn­l1f'Ce~,~arv in Yicw of the fa~.__J that ihC' Public Curator ·has to keep a complete record of all cioillf,S in insolvC'ncy. and that h]c:; account anll actions are subject. to Ycry c10'<' ".crutin~· by the Auditor-GeneraL \Y0 also proposp tt) int!'oduce an an1Pncln1cut \vhich ·will obvia1:___' delays in liqnidations iu C.l::)(.::: \Yhcrc the trnsh'c has di('d. or is absent, o1· ha.•-, been convic1cd, or is guilt,v~ of any impropPr con­dueL The Public t'urator in snrh cases will s1 cp in as trust0c, and. in order to pr'::)tcrt the interests of the creditors and debtors and so that t,1teir intcr{'ets shall not be prcjnJici­allv air{'cte,cJ. obtain an ordc'r of the court to deal with the matter. Tlw Bill a],' pro­poses that the balance-•h0ct. instead of bein:r made u1o to 31st December a_, at pn"<0nt. will

Public Curator Act

in the funu·c hr 111adc up to 30th J unc Thi~, "·ill c•rw blc the accounts of the Public CrL·ator to synchronise with the Government acrou11t-- ~scncralhT, and will enable t,h{' bnlancc-,lrcct to be presented to Parliament rnan)~ u1onth~ <~arlier than it is now pro~ r. :ntcd. F01 . insta.nce, a. balan:r:e-shcct pre­sented ro 111e rn Jmnutry 1s not placed before

Parliament until the following [3.30 p.nr.J _ession, probably in August or

:September. Under the proposer! mTlentlmrnt the• hal.anrc-sh('C't would be pre-~C'nted _10 n1r, In ...._.\ugnst, and \YoulJ be llllmccl!at<·ly upon the table of the liou•·C.

It i: iunlrN· proposed to give the Public Curator .mthority to be appointed liquidator of a. JOlllt stork con1panJ. He has not got il1at at prescni. A case arose recently in .. l~c ~"as asked to act as liquidato"r -of a JOint srork companv. and his leo·al ach-i~crs as<m·ccl hinr that he had not the pov:er, and that he could not secure the appointrncut as a liquidator under the exist­ing Act.

There is anothet· lll'OYision unclcr which IYC

propose ro enable the• Public· Curator, \dwn he is apnointf'cl a.n P\:.ecutor under a \'vi1l to atltnini~t.ur_ the estate in~tead of applying' for probate. Ho can apply for probate now in an:v -c·HaH' other than that in \\ hich h~ has L. en appointed executor. If appointed execu­tor. he mast take out letters of probah- That, of <--.Jllr.;;;e, r:ncans increa·'-t'rl +'Xpenses to tlH' c<tat0. To administer the estate entails a fcp of 25<., whPreas to proceed bv prohat. costs £4 2s. 2c1. It will thcrPfore be ,,oen how Ul111C'CC:-:iSary it is that this (':Xtra cost shoulcl he incnncd b;, the estate. It. is also propo~l'L1 to gin_' hin1 the pD·.yer to rcYoke an {n·dpr f'll'etion. in cases where saY an election been filed in error. The P~blic {'uratw JL 1,- lraYe lllod an election lwlieyinrr thd a ;.c·r'Clll Jicd intestate, and aftprward: he. ma_, iind out that thl' person made a \YJ!l. ]-j,, m1ght have filed an election bc·liov­ing- tbat it '.\a~ the last \Yill and tc~tanH'nt, mHl he may find a later will. L\t pr in such cases he has to enter an ·rdcr to rc\·o~c such elcct_ion. The proposed

arnenclLJ"·nt \~.Ill enable h1m to file a n1cn1o­randurn in the offirQ of the court rcYoklncr election and file a fresh election. o

Anotlh-r very important 'improvement which '~Ye propo.:.;(' to ronfer on the Public Curator i:-; tc: ha\ transmission of land cnter::_d up to b1n1 as trus1-C'e. At present, if he is udnlinlf'­tflring ·n estate comprising land-;-;ay realt:--­md pcrsonaH:·-he has no such power. If the peroonaliy in the estate is insufficient to H.cet tlu• he is powerlcs,·, to do anvthiug \vit h thr land meet the additional r<pens~.

Mr. I<CI~G : L nless he is a devisee in trust.

The ATTOR="!EY-GENERAL: That is so. and in lllO'-t cases be is not .. In ordinarv eu~es ln'. ~·annat be. \Ye want to put him i~1 1ht? pu~ltHnl that ho can haye trJnslnis·.oion cnt•.'rc-1 up to him as trustee. This y, ill c·11ahic him to sell, lease, or n1ortgugo thL ~and, and :::o properly administer the C:"t8tc 111 the wav inlendod.

_Anf!tlwr Yer:v in111ortant pro..-ision in the B!IJ H an amendment to enable th Public (_'t.1rator to release a n1ortgagc \Yhcro th8 1nortgr· ~·flo of t.he prop:. rty rnay be absent hom Qnonsland, nw~· be dead, or cannot be founr~, ~r where the 1nortgu gee n1a:.' be a co~·poratlon or con1pany 1vhich has ceas2d to ~XIS\. J~ that CU"P. there lllUy be llO p0r-:,Ol1 m lne State who 1s authorised to act with rOSJLc-t to the discharge of tho mortgage.

Amendment Bill. 247

L"'ndl'r thl' HllE'll'luwnt t~ll' Pnblic Curator rua.\·, 011 recciYing fnll satisfaction, gin:. a rnen1oraudtun of discharge. I thi11k ho11. m rnber~ will rccogni:-f' that that is rea~on­a ble. _'l'l_w power is )Jltrtl,· proYided for in the existing 111ea~· urc~ bnt thC' mnending Bill rxtcnd·" satnc.

At 3.35 p.m .. The CnAm:uAx OF CmDIJTTEES (:\Ir. Pollock,

&rt[JUr!J) relieved l\Ir. Dunstan in the chair.

The ATTORC\EY-GENERAL: Another important proviso is one giying the Public (1urator power to exrcq_te a transfer. .A n1an may have sold land to another, and he may han left the State bofore completing the transfer, although the whole of the liabilitv on tho land ma haYe born paid. In such a case we are conferring on the Public Curator po\YPI' to haYe the transfer entered up in the name of the owner of the property.

It is also proposed to give the Public Curator power ~o sell property up to the \·alue of £1,000 mstead of ,as at present only Llp to a value of £500. Of cour,e, there \vill be saf<'g·uards introduced under which he will be unable to sell up fo £1,000 unless at publi" auction. That is to say, he cannot do it by pri, ate contract unless he bas the writ­ten consent of the llC'nenciaries or ha& first submitted to pnblit auction.

\Ye also propose to give him power to dis­tribute an e--late much more expeditiously than he ccn do at present. To-day, if he reject-s '' claim by a creditor, then that creditor can sit dov n on his dain1, and 1nav l'PJH'\\- it at any timr f'nbj0ct to statutP o~f limitation. This tics the hamh of the Public Curator so much that he cannot make a di--tribution for six vcars unless at considcr­D ble risk. This is" l1nneccssary, and very often leads to unnrne,,sary delay. Under our rroposal the Public Curator, on receipt of a claint. \Yill nolify the creditor if he rejects it. and if the nctlitor does not thf'n within six months take his case lo the court, the Public Curator \Yill be ,able to distribute the estate without incurring any liability. or without the creditol' having anv power to enforce his clain1 after\vardS. "'

\Y c alco wish 10 confer upon the Public C'tuator power to proceed with the distribu­tion of an estate without an order of the court. Very often cumbersome proceedings have to be carried out by the Public Curator before h~ ran di-tribute an o<tate. He has to so to the court and ask the court to gi,·e him an order as to what advertising he shall clc, in connection \vith the est.1te, and after giving tho order, \vhirh is more or less a mere formal matter, he has to go to the court again and ask the court whether he has c:trried out it• instructions and \Yhether the <·ourt considers it proper for him to make the distribution. The Public Curator ought to be the best person to judge as to what adn~rtisf'mcni..s are nece---:sary, and in \Yhat places or countries it is ncce~sary to ad\ er­tise. and the public should have suflicient confidence in him to entrust him with the tlrrying out of that work.

Perhaps the mo--t important feature of the Bill is. as I indicat('d at au carlit>r stage, that provision in which \YC e1npower i he Public Curator to apply for an order fm the protection of the estates of aged and infn·n1 per~ons-p0r:-;on·1 vdw by l'Lason of age. rli~, a~ , t:cldicj ion t0 drink. or fl·orr1 n1cntal or ph~T:ical infirmiti0s, are ~uli1blc to manage ihcir own aflair'. \Ve hayp had manv iushll1<"l ~ of \\here, O'.·,·inp; to theRe failing·~. peo}1lP lHtYc con1e under undn"" influence. It

Hon. J. M ullan.]

Public Curator Act [ASSE:\1BLY.] Amendment Bill.

< ftt-n happens that a pcrp-::_,11 rnay be tncntally \\l'ak: 'o much so that perhaps an order co;ll.d b,, secured adjndging hirn to be in:;;ane. He 1na.v haYe a vcr.v valuable propprty, and there nwy be a disrwsition on his part to dissipate that property, but the cnly remedy the rela­ti,-c., han~ i~ to have the order of insanit:r rnade out a::rainst hin1. ,shie.h people are lo ;th to ·do i1i the cas0 of a relative. Every­llodv kno\YS tlun there i::: nwre or less of a rig.lna attached to a fa111ily if n rnernher of

the faruily i::; adjudged insanl'. ar:.d they take no acTion. with thP re:-;.u]t that ,-:·l'Y often, although there m a,,· be. nu.1.ny people.· d~pend­l qr upon the c~tatc'. n l1HIY be du::stpatcd before anything can be dmw. A provisicn such as this is in ope-ration at pre·,cnt in ~ew Z a]ancl, and the Attornc_,·-General of the D01uinion rcccntl·, inforn1ccl nH~ that it was \\·orking- satisfactOrily. I ha,~ no r0aso11 to doubt that it ,.-ill work just as satisfactorily }H·rc us it doe~ in :Xcw ZPaland. I thi11k the Er:-:t place Y\ here this law "\Y<-tS in operat1on \YU::: France; in fact. the Xe,·: Zcala11d pL'ople copied it fro1n Franc.'. I think it is a very dc-irable arrwndment to the Act. \Ye had a c .:-.P onh l'CccntlY-I n1cntioncd it. at an :<trlicr stage of thls Bill-\Yhcre. if a m.:asure like this had bcPn in operation. yc•ry rxpen­,jn' litigation cculd !-, lH' i.JL'lH' obYiatcd by ha Ying a proteC'tion ortlt·l' rnadP out· against tlH~ IJPrson who, it waf". all(•gcd, had been di<Osi pa.ting bis propc-rt:-·.

There is another an1endn1e11t in th~~ Bill proYiding that diYidends and llonu~e~ nre not. to lr'. forfeite-d by companies in future. I think that is quite a fair thing. It has rmne to our kno\de-dge that companic~, in order to overeomo the ·' unclain1ecl 1no11eys" pro­Yisicns in the Public Curator Act, haye forfeited dividends and bonuses in the past.

:Ylr. KELSO: It that article of a 'sociation '1 rictly legal?

The ATTOR::\EY-GE::-.;ERAL: Yes. 1Je!ieve tbey could legally forfeit bonuses er JiYidends in the pa::-t. ThL·:: lHl\"P Jon.' it, and the provi::..:.ion here is 1o preYe11t that lJeing done in future.

Provision is also n1adc enabling trustees and Dthers \\ ho n1ay b2 adYc-rtlsiug for the owners of unclain1cd 1noney-5 to charge the cost of such adn:rtislng, 11ro rnta. against the estates C'onccrned. \Yhich is Yf'l'\. desirable. There is further p<.>V. er giYing 'rho Public Curator the right to refu::'0 to aec·0pt the position of trustee, a power which v.-e undcr-tand he h no>\-. but there is some doubt

about the wording of tbe section in the pres•nt c\ct, and in crdcr to rl .ce the legality lJc,' ond quc:<tioa '\ e arc n1:1.king thi,·. ainend-lllPlJl.

As I sltid at the outset. this is rcallv a II10asnr _ that can be Ino.-3t ndYantagcolt2ly diseusscd in CorninitH'(:. In fact. it 13 Bill which hardly lends itsclf-thr re being so manv fr ,gmentar:v an1cndn1ents~ru a S( ~ '•J-::.d read­ing- :;;pf'rr'; It i~ ::! Bill whith can most eff ctivcly be dealt ~.Ylth ill C'onunitt00) and, 1herefore, I ::.hnll ruscrye any furthc~r re:marks until questions ari:-:e on the 13lll ~tt th<H stage. I beg to nwvc~

"That the Bill be llU\C read second ti1ne."

:\Ir. KI::\G (Lor;nnl : As the Attorney­General says, this Bill i::< of :-uch a fragme21~ tary nature that the proper tin1e to discu~s it reallv is in Committee. but I trust I shall IJe allo"wed tlw same latitude as 1 he hon. gentleman m his second rc;,cling ,pecch. I

[Hnn. J. lJhlllan

ftnd it difri-cult to discuss the Bill withcut referring to a good n1any of its .l:Jt"·)\·i-.ions, and I therefore propose to follo\-r tiv: conr~c adcptcd by the :\Iinistcr. I would like to complirnent 1he hon. gentlcu1an upr;n the lucid nature of the explanation which he has given. and also upon the fact that the Public Cnr . ._tor Act has be0n working so ~ati .. -Jac­toril." and has been) as he said~ such a boon to the people cf Qw,cnsland. I noi ic,, rh at the hon. gentleman has bc.en pointiLg out ·what an advantage it has been to the worke1· by the Public Curator ad.-ertising the num­be>r of wills he has made aucl of whirh he is cxPcutor, but I \Yould ask the he_ n. g·entlen1an not to place too much reliance upon those figures. bccanse. fron1 1ny ov n pcr.::;onal c·xpericnC'E', I think that quite a nun1bcr of ·wills in the Public Curator's office n:·1y not r·calisc his cxrcctations. ·

The ATTOR:\EY-GENER.\L: That c tt' both wa:,::;.

~<h. KI::\G: Certainly; but 11cv< would "'k the hon. geutleman not t'' too n1ud1 reliance on the estin1at·-':" 111ade. Of course, it is generally u11der:-tood that the l'ublic Curatcr Ins p1·epared these will· 1 ithout anv co··t to the testatcrs. It is also ><ltisfa.cton-' to know that the Public Cura­tor's office. is not out to make profit,-. but i· there n1ore for the conyenienc'.' of the public generally. xe,~erthcless, some of its chargee i; re V'...'i·v stiff. and I mentioned one the other duv. , ·

The ATTOR);EY-GENERAL interjected.

Mr. KIJ\'G : I \vill bring in the bill cf costs and shcw it to the hon. gentleman. I do not make statements Jike cthat \Yithout being sure of In~- facts. I had another ca~·c brought under mv notice only ;;r< tcrday r '''here the valu_ation cost" in the e~.tate- of a deceased person were charged at £3 3s. That is not a fair thing.

The ATTORXEY-GENERAL: \Ybat Wd.' the value cf the estate'!

?vir. KI::\G: The .-alue ,,-as about £500, "nd the valuation fee 11as put at £3 3•.

The DEPFTY SPEAKER: The hon. n1e>n1bcr ,,-ill not be in order in dije:ussing c-ases of that kind.

::\h. KI:\'G: I "a- just replying- to thcc nnrurnents of the' hoiJ, gentlen1an) who said L1Ut the office w~ts not out to n1akc profits. Tlw prin,cipal Arc wn", introduced in 1915, aud th< rpfore ha;;; been in c-xir~tcnc-e for nine >e•ar<. \Ye al''J kuow that, in the light of 1 he experience of those nine vears. anlend-rn~nt;:; arP for the plupo~e of the p··(Jpcr of the fLu~etions of the Public Curator, nQd I shoulcl lrkc to say that art aJncr::din~.!- Bill ~uch as the ono vrc haye before Ui' i~ 'a Yei"V o·ood IneasUl'B indeed.- and i:;: n·( i11o· to nt·· o~Yc~· manv of the diffi-culties -..,-h'ich ha n_• b0cn o-,Itline:d bv the :i\IinistPr. l do not think that auy gre3.t alteration of anv vital prilleiple is involved.

There if' one n -~ur·r which is alt·lL:,'Cth.~r ::,t·w, and t.hal is in rnnJlf'ctio:n \Vith th~; pro­trctjon rJf the cd>ttcs of agc.cL lniirt.!. a11d lncapacitail'd vc·r~-m--. ThRt is Ye.' 1 ' goucl }11'0Yisioll, -with whivh I .-hall deal latr· u11.

At 3.51 p.m., The SPEAKEF rcsnn1cd the chair.

::Hr. 1(1.:\'G: I wa11t to 1nake one or t\YO 't iolls. which I dtink \YiE n1ak(~ for tlJ('

"fnking of tl1e Aet. <Jlld I tr:__-;_ t tho f!:0ntlf~mU..n \Yill g-iYc" fflsourabL: cnn­

ei(1.:rari:m to thcn1. ~\Iy cle~irc is to 111nkc.

Public Curator Act [l± ~lUGU3T.] Amendnkli~ Bill. 249

rhi~ Rill -,~ good a working 1neasure as jJOseiblP, and one that \vill be of general bene­lit to the people of Queensland. I think that the pnvision outlined in the Dill dealing with the delay in liquidation proceedings is a ;-er:; g-ood one indeed. \Ye have the safc­Q'uard that ·whatever direction is 1nadc has to l)o mad'' by rhn court. Applications must be made to the court before anything is clone, and \Ye cnn rest a:3surerl that \Yhatever order is made will be made by a jnclge after due consideration. I would like the l\Iinistcr to c-ause inquiries to be nutde to ascertain ho\v far the Federal.Bankruptcy Bill is going to influence this clause.

I now propose to deal wit.h the provision i:1 ('UY11Hction \Yith the granting of orders to adn.iiHiHer the estates oi persons don1iciled rd' haTing an e:-tate in Queensland. "\Ve know that nnder th<' existing Act the Public CnratDr mav administer an f'St<lte in cf'rtain c-'ses, for iu~tancc, \Vhere there is no executor liYiug. or 'vhcre there is no executor V\'ithin thu jurisdiction, or w·hcrc the executor or r dn1ini~rra tor ha'-', died. and in other cases. The Bill nroYiclcs that eYen in the case ''here r,he ·Public Curator is anpoinkd an ":xecutor he can oLtain r:n order to aclrninis· ter an Q"!-tate. I sulnnit that that is an unfair prm-ision. \Yhy should the- Public Curator. as nn executor, be 11ossessed of any greater righh than a.ny othL'r executor or ,,_ny trut"tCP con1pany ·who are executors? \Yhy should he be aliowed simply to get an order to administer. and not be· required to Jll'OYt~ th ~ will at all? I ~ay it j,;;. not right. Ic i~ giYin.,- a pre_fc,-enn• to the Public Curator. and i.t is giYing a monopoly to the Pubiic Curator as a.n executor to obtain an r)nlcr to adrr1inistcr an estate. whereas other ~xecutors hav" to go through the formality nf f(('tting probate.

The ), TTOR:-;EY-UESEHAL: \'\hat does the hen. gt>rjtlernan \vant?

:\lr. KI:\G: If the :c\Iinist0r is g-oing to 'no,,: the Public Curator. <1" au f'Xerutor of an e~tatc. to get an order to achnlnister an C3tate '"·irhont applying for rJrobat--:,, tb:n the same luw should apply to other executors, whether t~ u~tCC' < ompanie~. pri~:atc ('Xt'~cntors, or any­bodv ch-P. \\'hen I s;:tv that. I am to a certain L·xtent speaking agai'Dst n1y owu profe~sion. bccan:-'-:> n1o:-;t of the \York of solicitot·s is :n applying; fo1· probah: of \;ill& and lettf'r~ of acln1inistration of drceascd p0rsons' e~tate~. If tho ban. gcntlerunn is genninB­ancl I believe he is-·in bl~ idt>a of chcalJCil­i!1g thf:"'i(' cosh throngh the Pnb1ic C'nr~tor, h':: n1nst bear in n1ind tllat lL• is only goinr; ro cheapen the costs in those estates of \Yhich the Pnblie Curator i" trustee or executor. If he is ,Loing to make any alteration, I •.voulcl esk him to extend the ame right to the comE1unit~. generally. ~o that cxccutor3 other than 1he Pub11c Curator n1ny < l1fJly for an order to a~.hninidci' · ·jthcn:t hilYin~· to go thr~n1!4'h the orcljnar~ Touti-rlc of aplJl~ in.r;_,· for prob~;te.

The ATTOR:\"EY·GEXETI\L: l.~ou \Yould no!: tllink it adYi~ab]e to confer the ntn1c rights un priYate individEals to do thing~· as you \YOldd ou thu Pubiic Cnrator?

:\fr. 1\::I=\'G: I nnclr•rstand that tht. PHb1ic Cur a tor is guaranteed by the GoYernn1ent. PriYate rru~tee con1p~1nies han~ to lodge he,:,Y~v del -its ns a guarantee of their bona fides. A pri~:atc incliYi(lual acting as an executor l1as nc·t to find uny deposit. I-Ic is 2i!11ply tppointcd by the person making the will. Thl' pe.i'·\.:.11 1\-ho !nakes the will CYidcntly

has ronf-ldencc in tho person \Yhom he appoints as his executor. The State need not worry about his capabilities or bona fides either. I say that, if he has been appointed a trmtec or executor under the law of the State, he ought to have the same right a< the Public Curator to put his particular cctate through the eourts with as little expense as possible, and at least. with the ea me privileges as the Public Curator pos­sc·,_scs. I am only claiming the same rights for the private individual as are accorded the Public Curator. I do not sec ,,-hv this discrimination should be made. \Y;th a grant of probate certain formalities have to bo gon<l through. Affidavits have tD be sworn to, and the Registrar of the Court has to be satisfied before the grant of probate is mad0. I do not see why the Public Curatbr should have any exemption from that procedure simply because he is a Govern­n1t..,nt instrumentality.

The ATTOHSEY-GEKEHAL: It would mean added expenses to the estat0.

:\ll'. KING: I sav that the Public Curator should not be granted exemption from condi­tions which have to be performed by private executors.

.:VIr. KELSO: It is only right that the executor in all casec should have the right of effecting that saying.

Mr. KIKG: The Minister v.ould then be making a saving tD everybody.

The ATTOHNEY-GESERAL: vVe are only deal­ing with the Public Cnrator.

.:VIr. KELSO: That is where you ha Ye got the advantage.

:'.Ir. KIXG: Dealing with the power of the Public Curator in certain cases of devises of realt~·. I ask the :\linistcr to giw the 1--Iou.,.e son1e inforrnation why, in cla:Hc 8, line Z9. the word''•

" Notwithstanding the provisions of an:::.~ law to the contrary,"

were inserted. I do not sec any necessity for them. Tlw Hill also gives power to the Public Curator to raise money to discharge liabilities whether the will give, that power or not. I haYe no decided ohjcction to that pO\Yer being granted. I think it a fair and reasonable power for the Public Curator to haYe, but I think the power should not be granted until application has been mad0 to the court and the court has sanctioned the action.

There arc C<'rtain provisions dealing with the r£'1ease of a n1ortgage, whero the princi· pal amount and interest have been paid off and there is nobody in the State and no

agent or attorney acting for the [4 p.m.] mortgagee \vho is able to give a

release. I think that is a very goo-d provision indeed. I haYe availed myself of such a provision ,,_·here a mort­g-agee was in America and the amount of the mortgage had been paid off. The owner of the property wished to sell; he had c. bm-er. but could not sell until the release of the mortr;ag-<J had been duly recorded. The Public Cnndor. b~7 YirtuP of a proyision in th(' c::..:Istin~ ~\et, -w~ts able to execute a release, and t11e transaction \Vas concluded.

I < annot af,Tee v-oith the prpYision giYing the Public Curator power tD execute trans­fef3 wh0re the vendor is absent from Queens­land. is dead, or whore the estate has not been administered. or the man cannot be found. I do n0t think that is a wise provi­Hon. I am inclined to think that it is

JJif.r. King.]

250 Public Cu; :tlor Act

stretching the powH of the Public Curato1· too far, as it confers on him the powers of a judge to make a vesting order to administer. The dif!icultv could be overcome in a cctse like this by" making an application to a judge.

The ATTOR"'EY-GENERAL: It all costs money. Jlilr. KING: It would not cost verv much

in a c •• se of this sort~no more than ail order to administer. He would merelv have to apply to a j udgo for a vestintcr ~rder, and the order would be granted. It is only a s:nall expense compared with the big respon­sibili.y that. it is proposed should be placed upon the Public Cmator. He may be quite satisfied in his own mind. I suppose he would ha Ye to get all sorts of evidence that the amount had been paid and that no money was owing; but I say that it is a big responsi­bility to place on the Public Curator. I think it would be far better if the Public Curator were to act under the direction of a judge.

Th0 \TTORxEY-GENERAL: Either party \YDuld ha vo red re's against the P11blic CuratOl' jf he did an:vthing wrong.

Mr. KI:\TG: That may be, but it is a diffi-cult matter. When fighting the Public Curator you are fighting the Government.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The Go,-ernment cannot br("ak the law.

Mr. KIKG : It would not be an action that would cost only a few shillings.

The ATTORKEY-GExEHAL: It would be Yery hard on the hon. membr r, if, after ha,-ing bought a piece of land for £500, the vendor cleared off without any proper transfer being effected, and he could not got a transfer without going to the court.

Mr. KING: The cxneme is v'erv small in a matter of that sort.~ 1 would be onlv too glad to pay the expense if I wante-d my "title. Thr power is too drastic to place in the hands of the Public Curator when so little expense ;,, im-ol,-ed. and it would be far better to al1o\Y things to go on as they are.

L'udPr clause 13 the Public Curator is again giwm the power of a judge in dealing with distcribution. I do not approye of that clause. Thcrp arc certain subsections mentiont cl in the dausc that ar _ being rope 1led. and I think they all act as a salutarv ched< on the Public Cl~rator. ~

Dealing with the new part of the Dill~ \\·hich the Attorne:, General wao, kind ('!lough to iHform us he got from ::\Tev Zealand and "·hich probably originated in France--I think the prDvisions are very gooU provision~ indeed. Ho has pointed out that in the c, ,c of a pon~on \Yho is prartierrllv an imbP.rik thcL~ is n"6 ]10\VC'!~ to do an.rth~ng un1c---~. havt~ tbat p~r~on declared a lun ,tic. jn the case of aged and infinn pel'.;;:Pns, is no prc-cnt law which cn<eblcs action to he tak<>n b:-· what vou might call en inten'ctcd part,v in tlw -event of thoc:,e ng· ~d or jnflrnl pcnons dissipating their esht< •·. This ncn·' sretion is going to fill a long fplt "ant lmt ihrrc is one particular point that I v.art t0 blrcss. and it i~ that applic~tion" are tn !H' IJli.l.dl~ to th0 rourt. I would i'ugg('· t to rh-, Att.omc:v-Gcneral that, instead of apnliL 1tion, h0ing- 1nade to th0 court, thp-- :;;honld lw nwtL::o­to n judge.

The AT'rORNEY-GENER'L: Of conr,c. ih ,--ill b._' n1adl: to a judgP in chanlLCl'"· \YC vYill make that clear if you like.

Mr. KING: Obviously, things happen that you do not want made vublic, and if you

[Mr. King.

Amendment Bill.

TIJ the court tlH'Y ar:• nwde p:___thl·ic. lmt ynn 1nake an ap·l)licat iou 1-) a 1:._

ir is heard in carnera. -;yi~e to nHik,• that alteration.

The ATTORXEY-G£:\"ERAL: \re \\·iH n1~tKt :-r clenl' \dH'll l' get into Cornm·!ttc~P.

~lr. KJXG: I think it would he ··:i.-.r:· 1hroughout tl1at to lliOYicle thcu the· application shall rna(ll- to a JUug_ 111 charnbcr:::; and not in court.

The _\TTOHXEY -GEXER\L: I think it \\ ouhl lle \Yi~(' to lcaYe it to tltc di~"l'etion of th·· jndgt', Tht"n' nHtV he so1ne Ycr·-' big L':-1at·_.., hhL>rt it \Yould b· · uch-isable to g'o in1o ccun.

).lr. I{l:\'G: In a case of that :-.orr tllr~T Y:ould be nothing to prcycnt the judg'' n~fc~·­rin[J' dw n1atter to c ntrt. He crmld l'f'f('r 1t tn ~he Full C<nnt B0nrh, if he Eo desired. Dealing \\ ~th the po\,·er of appointing rhe Fubljc Curator the prate _'tor of the e-.rah· of peuons addicted to alcohol. . I do Hot ,,.,. "h'" the clause> should not prondc for cnlwr the' Public Curator or some other fit and proper perso~.i acting in that t.tpacjty. Surclv an-..;- fit -and vroper per:::on~a rclatlYe. for i1~.stan~ce, or a wcll-kno\vn friL)nd~rould unckrtako the dutv ju't as well as the l'ublic Curator; but. that' is only a suggestion vYhich I am putting fonyarrl to the Minist•:r.

There arc certain statutory po\ven;;. gi:·cn in the Bill, and, taken all round. I thwk ihev are vcrv necessary powers-Inter aha, the' power to

0

apply moneys for the mainten­ance of protected 11ersons. T.hat partwular po"'cr also su vours of the l\1inistcr wishing to protect the Public Cura.tor to the extent of enabling him to get out of the estate at am- rate sufficient for the maintenance of th(· protect-ed pPrson. Personally. I thin}\:. i hat is quite all right. There already IS

pov,·0r to get an order of protection in con~ nection \Yith perr"Dns \Yho arc unfit to look after then1'"elvPs, and po,ver to take ove1· a.n c~tate. There is power also to take over a portion of an estate for a pcrson~s mainten­ance, and that probahlv is t.ho rea ,on win' this particula.1· clause is put in. There '' also a clause d,,aling "~ith a protected person being incapable. without the sanction uf the Public Curator, of making any transfer or lease. That protects persons who haYe tralF­a.ctiDns with the protected persons for valu­able consideration, who have acted in good faith and without notice that he is a protected 1181'5011. rrhat is a very good clam;;e i~uleed, and one which certainlv should be m the Dill. .

'fhere is one clausf in the Bill that I do not like : that is the one rHpcr·ting the tcf3tan1cnta.ry powers of protect, cl person~.

The ATTORXEY~GEXEIP.L: ~l1 hat 1~ -~ Y(·ry difficult mattee to <]ea] with. \Y c mu et l'f'"itrict a rnan in that condition.

~.11·. KI="G: \Yhat I complain about is that thi,, particular cl 'l"e relates to a ·v.·ill ma.dc before he really becomes a protc.cted person.

The ATTORxEY-GExERAL: It mav lx thal". although he "uS not protected.' the wili JT1i12ht ~ha Ye b0-en made under circnn-l;;:tances \rh-ere 11ndno :influence '"' .1s exerted.

:\Jr. KIC\G: I think that the existing tosLL­mentarv law on the subject and the Testa­tor's Fan1ilv =.\Jaintenance Act are quite ,,nfiicicnt to· meet all requirements, .and I look upon this as one of the objectionable cl a uses of the Dill.

The ATTORXEY-GEXERAL: I have a verJ! open mind on the question.

Publi~ Curator Act [14 AnaiST.] Amcnd.nmt Bill. 2;)1

~fr. I~I:\G: I think 1t i~ a Y<:rv dano-crous !)l:incip)l' inJ.ced, particularl:v in~ r0ga~·d to mlls nwcL prior to the passing of this Bill. Allot he,. 'lanse deals with the forfeiiinp; of ,lj,·iclt•nti-> ,IC'cla.red b:v companies. I think that i-3 an nn,vise 11r0vi-sion. It. attarks the fundanh_'ntal principle that a co1npany may nnkc rulcc for its own gm·ernrnent. I would like to pnt this position to the J\linister: !ion i it going to affect a con1pany's right:; 1n rc.]Wct of unpaid calls and other debts' That W]'-:·t of th<> matter has to bo con­f'idc:.tcd. The company h:-ts the, rig.ht to rlc·clarc these dividends. and it has the right IV a cba rgc on thcnl in rcspC'C't of unpaid calls. I trust that the Attorne;--Uencral will keep an open 1nind on thi3 qu~"tion aho. I must c:onh'ss that I han• been a little per­plexed b.: clause 19 referring to the amend· ment of the principal Act amending section 12 of the Trustees and Executors Act of 1897. The principal Act in the schedule refers to "I lle \Yorr1 '· any " in st'ction 12 of the Tru~tees , nd Exe<·do1·s j\ct. bEt I find that there i., no such \Yord th -,re.

The ATTOR)IEY-GEXC::R\L: The arncndn1cnr COlTCct:;: that n1istake.

:\lr. 1~1:\'G: Tf thP YYord is read "and." :·ou CHI! fullow it. \Yith regard tu the r ·tro­opccti.-it•· of the amendment. ' . .-hic.h is to be made b\' subclRus•:; (2) of cla.usP 19. I also

Th Bill is rather disiointed, and it a Committee Bill. lm.t on the ,_-hole

it 1s a Y(·r:v L,ir n1casnre and one capable of lwing inl]H'oYcd in Con1n1itt0C. I have thro\Y11 out onl or t\yo s11g·g, -.tions \vith thl int{ ntinn of trying to rnak..._0_ 1t a good ;.york­able Bill .nd one which will be uodnl lo the n·hole commu11it::. and I tmst that the Attorne -GenNal \'ill consider tho•c ougges­tion~S in the spirit in which they ar"' offered.

J\Ir. KELSO (Tuncluh): I must confess that nnv alteration in the Public Curator .\et YYhivh would have the efi:cct of giving the Public Curator additional powers and tendlng to f'reatc a n1onopoly for him would net be yje\Yed by me vvith any satisfaction. As I said on the initiation of the Bill in Committee. I think that in a matter such as this · hatever general powers are con-fcn·ed u the Public Curator should also be · on those large (0n1panies \Yhich have gTo,n1 np in recent years .and take a gre::t.t an1ount of rcsponsibilltv in connPction \\·ith P'·iatC". "

The ,\TTORXEY-GEKEH-\L: \Vo are gi.-ing them (':xL·u pov.·cr in this Bill.

Mr. KELSO: This Bill does not pre•·ent 1 hcn1 f ro1n rxtcnding their business, and uf cour~c it is of value there; but, at the same time, it is a pity that the whole of the legi,lation dealing YYith the matter is not to be codified. It would be more sati•,. factorY if that were done. It mav be that the Pnblic Curator, acting in the public interests. should take up C"rtain duties which e..-en a tru::;tec compn,ny or a private person should not take up; still, whenever there is an alt('ration in the r'\ct, I an1 afraid there i' a t>•Hdcn .. 0• to give the Public Curator a litt le• more pm.-et-. The deputy leader of the Opposition eoid that the Bill gave 1 he Public Curator a little n1ore preference f.O that the pnhlic yyould be induced to ;;.\Ying- their businc% into the bands of the Pubiic Cmaior.

The ATTORXEY-GEXERAL: It is of no adYan· tngc h the Government. It is not a profit­Innking in ,t,itntion. It is onlv for the benefit ~f the public, · .

:\Jr. KELSO: It i> unfair to discriminat<' in that "'Ya\. bLcau~e to a great extent it c-asts a slui· Oil the large Companies that arc fnnctioning in a very important \vay.

The ATron:-;n-GEXEinL: That 1s not intended.

Mr. KELSO: The a"umption is that the proh·ction cf the Gm·ernnwnt or the back­il'CS of the GovcrnnlC'Ilt j"' Ycry pO\". crful~ and the logical tt~nclc'\JC_Y \Youhl be to assume ihat thP Y· ry hest ti1ing· to do is to put all :-c-our }l'gal \York into the hand.; of the Go­Ycrnment. A list has been prepared-I eaw the list in the report of a certain company-o;o,ho\Ying the llUlnbcr of ·wills proved last 'ear. and it cli--dosecl that only 5 per cent., ·went to the Public Curator, and I 1hink. fronL nlPlllOl':·. al ~·ut 17 pc•r cPut. to the other companit'S.

Th0 ATTOl1XEY-Gc :<ER\L: TheY arc verv old-c .. tablished '"unl}Jdnil':,. t'he Publi~ Curator ha;-; oni v uPrn in cxistcnc(~ for nint? ,-ear,. \\'., ,hall cr.me to maturity by and by.

i\Ir. KELSO: Th0 ::iiinister· s statement rna Y bP rorrecL but the"!_'C' is still the assurrtp­tioJl that tlw Gon·rnment arc behind the Public Curator. and that the .-er:v best place to haYC :vour legal business transacted i~ throngh the GoYernment. because they have the YYlwle c:reclit of the State at their back.

The ATTORXEY-CEXER\I.: If YYhat the hon. gcntlenuln says is true. then the priYate compani'"':i 1nu:;;,t b0 afr,tid of the Govcrnn1.ent.

Mr. KELSU: I c!o not say that the:v are afraid of t lw Governln(•nt. The point 1 a1u arguillg i:-:; the n1n1C point that son1e hon, nl-f'tnbt r~ on i hi~ ::.idc n rgued last year. md that is. that th0 Go.-ernm 'nt make the law anll thor sbou1d uot give preference to thcrn~0lvc,. O\-Cl' the' ~encnd publir,

Tht• ArronxsY-GEXER u.: Ill this case it is prefnt•ncc to the )mblic.

::ih. KELSO: I do not think so. Th" Public Curator adYertise~ that ho 1nakcs ,\,ills free of charQ't:'. Ffov: does that v;,Tork out in praf'tif'l' ?- The hon. gontle1nan probabl~T know~ that in n1any cast'", eYen 111 small estate~. when the Public Curator advcrti .cs that he will make wills for noth· iug, ht' secs 1hat he ha;, n hand in administer­ing those estate:;, It i:;. smncthing similar 1o ,dwt I <;:T\Y YC'.'itf'rclaY at the Exhibition. Then' "·as 110 chr1rgc 'for adn1is:;ion to a cnrta in side show, but you hn:cl to pay \V hen ,·o·1 c:une out. In this ea; there is no ~harge at tlH sl an. but the Public Curator 1 akc~ good care to ::d_;c that he has the acltnini"tering of tho;;.;e estates, and naturall~· he chargp;;,, '\"hen tho3e estates are adminls-1 0rcd. I think figure~ rail be brought to show that in n1an ca~cs the charges n1ade by the Puhlic Curator. as ><tatcd h_v the depnt_v lendN of the Opposition. arc greatly in cxcP.~.::, o£ those charged by priYate co1npanir"i.

Tho ATTORXEY-GEXERAL: I could ea5ily sho'v the hon. gcntlcn1an figures, if I cared to +akL up the time of the Hou-.e.

l\Ir. KEL60: I think 'Xf' could shov; figures in tlH~ othf'r ,dircctiou. ton

Th_: .--\TTOR:\Et-GE:-.;r:T\L: The hon. geutle­lnan could not shovr fi~"2.-nl'e::: to proYe that the f'"har!:!:c~ nltde by priYate f'Oll!panicf"· arf' iowcr iL dl tlJ05e of the Pnhlic Curator

iHr. KELSO: I 1 hink we can. Ai the jH'C"::Pn1 tin1e th·" Public Curator has pov~·cr 111 at1miui,tcriug an p;.:;tatc to re1£'a~~ a rnortgng._· np to a certain poinJ. I und('r5tancl that the n;n propo-es to cxte,ncl that position. If

Jh·. K elso.]

Public Cumtor Act [ASSE:\IBLY.] Amendment Bill.

it is going to provido that the Public Curator >hall have power to inquire whether a man whose estate he is a·dministering has satisfied his full debt, then it is going to be a very goad provision. In such cases wh:..'re it can be shown that the pur"hase monev has been paid and they cetnnot fiml the ,~endor, the purchaser should be giYcn a transfer. I kno"\\' of man-y cases vr here there has been a lot of trouble.' The hon. gentleman sa,·s that he can go to the court. but I feel that the same care that has to t · ex rcisrd bv a private individual should lw exercised b.·· the Public Curator before he !-<i!!llS any tra"nder of the property. The hon. gentlen1an stated that the Govc•rnment were behind it. If the Public Curator is Lehind it, the onHs is on the Public Curator backecl up bv the Govern­mcnL The proposal is a \'cry good one, and It IS a n~ry ~1n1ple y,·ay of gcttlncr out of tho difficultv. No doubt the hon. ~1ember for Logan kno,vs of a number of cases \Yhcre this particular clause would operate. If the Go­YE'rnment are going to give the Public 'Curator power to do this, the Public Curator then n·ill take every reasonable care to see that he will not sig-n a transfer unless he is certain that it should be executed.

The clause in relation to aced and infum n.ersons is ce1~tuinly n; step in fhe right direc~ non. That 1s cerhunlv a clause which the Public Curator. ought to have power to carry mto eff et. It 1s not for me to go into details, ns the h-on. n1en1ber for Logan has. done so ver:v fully. I rose principal!,· once more to nnpbasise the fact that it w"cmld have been better at thi~ particular juncture if a codifv­ing .. -\et had been introducctt dealino· wifh the whole question of treating the "'Public Curator as a tru.c::~ee cmnpany. I wannly support the suggestron made bv the hon. m2m· bcr for Logan tha.t means n1ight be found, l"H_

1 n ~1y the ~nsertlon of n special clause in the B1l1 1 to gtve f'ffcct to that suggestion. ~r\. gT?cral clause could ~e e111bcdied giving t1ITvate. truster. coi:1pan1f:-: the s~Jme po\vcrs 1n c<•rtam cases wh1ch are given to the Public Curator. That is a mntter which probably can be bette-r cl1scus""d 111 Committee. There ~re, on 1h~ 1\Yhol?~ quire a nu1nber of proposals 111 the B1~1 wluch ar~ IYcll \YOrthY of con~ sideration. ·

::'.1r. VOWLES tDa/l;p) : I do not intend to speak seriously on this Dill at the present stag·e, because all I h;n-e rrot ID say can be .said. in Committee, but wl1ile the ·House is con~Id~n~Ig the second r~ading of this Bill, the prmc1pl<'s of the I'ubhc Curator Act come in for consideration. It has alwavs occ:urred to me that}!~~ Public Cu_rator mig·ht take as a n1otto, \,here th2re: 3 ~t w1ll there's a wny."

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC IKSIRl'CTIOK • "\\'here there's ; will there's a f·e." • ·

:Sir. VOWLES: The Public Curator is c~·editecl with ex-ecuting a will and not get­( mg the fee that other persons are supposed to get for domg the same work. The Public Curator draws up the, will gratis on the one cons1deratwn that the office does not expect a fee at present but does so in the future in the form of co!11mi'Sion. ~Yhcn the principal 1nca~ure \Yas Introduced Into this House in 1915 I supported it. I kne\\· from mv own P:-:periencc of Inany instances \Yhere 1€-gish.­non such as this was desirable, and I knew the oxp~rienN' of similar legislation in New Zealand. I thought that in manY cases it \Yould be a verc accej:)table and cheap mode of dealmg- \Yith certam cases where a man

[Jfr. Kelso.

died intestate. It is. so long as the e'tate i< very small. \\'hen it comes to bigg-er things, 1 he commission ,,~hi eh i~, charged 1n many cases where the whole of the beneficiaries or ncxt~of-kin arc twenty~onc years of age is altogether ont of proportion to the costs that would be charg-ed by any legal man. and thcr,c arc no fees so far as e"'\:ecutors are COllCCTncJ.

\V e understand that there is going 1 o be a cheapening of the la\v, and I pres\m1e this is one of the metho·ds by which that IS gomg to be achiend. In the case I referred to, the commi•·sion is ont of all proportion to the fees a legal man would charge.

I also think it is iniquitous that in the settlement of claims for compensation under the \Vorkers' Compensation Act there should

he a clause inserted that is prac­[4.30 p.m.] tically a trap for the unwary;

that is, "Do vou desire the Pub­lic Curator to act for vott in the settlement of this matter?'' That 'is the form the unfor­tunate ,,·idow of the deceased is ashd to sign. She is placed in the position that in the case of a settled basis of compensation in rc'Jpect of death or injury, as the case may be. the Public Curator comes in merely to transfer a cheque from one department to another and charg-es 1 per cent. on the transaction.

The ATTORNEY·GEXERAL: \Vhat 'vJuld a priYatc solicitor charge?

Mr. VO\VLES: ::\"ot ~per cent.! No hope! In 1nany of these cases, more particularly where the accident has resulted in the death of the father of the family. where the \vorker has been killed and a settled sum is paill as compensation, :..t. solicitor vvould not charge b per cent., let alone 1 per c nt. I '·W there is a trap in it, because the widow doves not know what she is signing. It is simply a matter of transferring a cheque from ono department to another, and the Public Curator charges 1 per cent. for it.

That is >;·hat the Government call cheapen­ing the law. I do not think it is. I ask the Attornov-General to take that into considera­tion. I·Ie said that the Public Curator's office is not a rnoney~n1aking in~titution. It does turn over a lot of monev, although it c rtainl:· has not a very big balance at the Pnd of the v-car. Still, it has the privilege of utilising· profits in various directions by the employment of a large number of indi­viduals. I do not know whether the office rs RCncrous in the payment of employees, but I do know that there arc a gn"il,t number employed. I do not know whether the staff is larger than it ought to be. but I say that the Public Curator's office is dipping; into yarious lines \vhich \Vero never intended ·when the Public Curator Act came into existence. I haYc SC'Pn cases where it has been em.ployed as a debt co1l0ctor. Can you in1agine a Government department acting as a debt­collecting institution for a Brisbane tailor? I ha YC f.cen accounts that ha ye come from a local clerk of petty ·ccs,ions. Those .tccount.s ha,·c the imprimatur of the Crown, aud that carri0s a certain a1nount of \veight. It ,yas nc:vcr intended that a Government institution should be a dunning imtitution I think it is to be regretted that this spirit of -cl .bbling in evcrv cfitss of business exists. I n1nst say that so far as debt-collecl ing is concerned, no Professional 1nan will look at it. It i;;; considered the lowest and meanest class of business. The dunning of people in tho collection of debts is avoided by every

Public Curator Act, Etc., Bill. [14 Al:GUST.] Auctioneers, Etc., Bill.

'.'olir-itor as much as possible. \Ve have debt­colkctillg institutions throughout the State, :-·et the Government are t::lmpeting for that da•s of business. All I can sav is that it \Yas !>ever intended that the I'ublic Curator ,houhl enter into that business, and I hopo it \Yill be clisrontlnued.

Th, re are many vcrc- desirable amendments c-ontained in the Bill WP have before us. It i~ highl/ ncc0sRary that "on1ething should be done in the case of pc:>ple who arc a.bsont or who are dead. \Vh('n some legal form has to he executed it i~ noceBs,arv that some authori tv sLonld be created to execute that legal fo;·m. Of course. so far as mortgages are conct~rnec1, at the present tin1e under the Public Curator Act there is po,·rcr to reloaso rnortgagL'S nnder certain conditions.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The Public {'uraror has power no\Y in a n1odificd form.

1\fr. YOWLF.S: I admit that is so, but he never hod authoritv to execute a transfer. I£ a nw n has entcrc(l into a contract and has since died ,~nd there is no person to repre­Rcnt hi:m, th{~ delay in nw.ny cases 111ight be fatal, and it is necessary that some person <r...hould ha Ye po\.vcr to cxPrntc th-e necessary signature for the registration of the docu­ment, and the Public Curatcr, no clod,t. P}lonld be the person.

If there is to be anv competition between the l'nblic Curator and JWIYato trustee com­paniP~-thc }llnister says there is not-thev should lw pla.ced in the same position as the Public: Curator. I "'v these institutions ha Ye Llf'Pn carrying out~ CL:-rtain duties, and caJTYin~ thenl out ,,,ell. There is no sus­piciOn r:~ hout them. They are working under Acts of Parliament; they have made deposits with t.hc GoYernmont; and, if there is going to be ~ompetition .as to who is going to recein' the commission. then thev should be placccl in the san1e po2ition as~ the Public Curator. There should bo no preference giYen to anybody. Everybody should be on the same· plane and be given the same poyye;·s. e.nd, when the Committee stage is ''ache:'. I hope the ::\;lillistPr will take these r.JRttt·r~ into consideration and see if smno­thing caJE.ot be done for the trustee com­panies. Everybody who has had anything to do YYith them realises that it is just as safe t11 go to a trust cc con1pn ny as it is. to go to fhe I'ublic Curator. Evcr:vthing is fair and squarp and done on businc.'"s lines. That being so, I thirok everybody should be given equal opportunities.

Thl'l'C are minor matte>rs other than thoso princijJlf's to which I have referre-d con­tained in this amending Bill, and I propose. when 1 he opportunity arises in Committee, to deal '."ith those matters, I hope that in a mattr'l' of this sort the 1-Iillistor will give g0ncrou~ con~ideration to suggestions which are offer~d from this side. \Ve are not in opposition to the principle, of the BilL \Vo think it is a, nect3SUl'Y nH~asurc in n1any rcspcc·t'. \Vhen I \V:Ls in a responsible posi­tion in :910. ·when th0 principal _Act ·was l'llSei'd, and I had to reph· on behalf of the i lpposition, I stated th:~t, it was a wBlcome innovation. and I thought it might do a lot of go0d 2nd might be the means of cheapcn­jng rn·c( ,-__ ... ., "0 far as beneficiaries ·were COllCJ l'!lf'd.

Qnl' ,;,.u-That the Bill be now rea-d a srcond 1in1n-put and passed.

The con.sidoration of the Bill in Com­mitte~ w.•s made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

.\TC'TIO:\'EERS A:\D COMMISSIO:L\ AGE:\'TS ACT A:\IE:\D:'IIE:\'T BILL

SECOND READIKG.

Tlle ATTORNEY-GE:\ERAL (Hon. J. I\Iullnn, Flindcnl: In moving the scco11d J eading of this Bill, I m a v mention that I gaye a fairb- conlprPhf'nsi;, out1inc of the propr- -Prl :->n1cndrncnts on the initiation of the Bill in Committee. Thnrc is really ver:c little useful infonnation to add. rrhe Act, as hon. 1ft 1nbcrs know. l1as y:orked very \Yell. It ha~ been in operation in seventy-six petty ~eeiio:ns districts. and I thi11k 1,1-~0 aP"Pnh have rq;;j,tere-d under it. It has giYc; th< auctionCL'l' and coinlnission agent a standing

hich he newr has ha-d before, while it has made the road of the ··crook " a prdty hard one, and made it pretty difficult for such gt_ntlen1"L'l1 to carry on in the 'i.vay they w·cre earrying on L('fore the .. Act can1c into opera­tion. Of course. YOU cannot e-ntirelv e1in1inatc• the '' crook " fr(nn an::~ business: ~but, taken on the 'i.Yhotc, th:: husinl'.:s of auctiDnecrs and C'001111is::~ion ag·cnts has been VOI'~l wcJl COll­

ductf'd indeed undC'r the operations of the A<·t.

::\~e-:crthcl;~ss, \\'e ha,-e found it necessary to bring in a fcv.· an1cndn1cnts. Those arnend~ n1cnts, I n1a_v say, are really marlc at the rPquest of 1.uetioneers and con1mission agents themseln'o. in order to tig·hten up the measure and to meet the difficulties of administratioll ihat haye arisen. The first amendment in the Bill 1· a new definition. "Letting." bv which, 111 the case of tho forfeiture oi a bond, th·· persons concerned will lw able to claim for rent. l'nder the exist­ing pro\-ision rents arc not 11roviUed for. Thus, if a bond were forfeited, and the agent was holding· £10 or £20 of the rent due to a client. th(n client could not claim the rent­so I am gil-,·n to underctand-so to med that cliff-icnlt:-- \Ye arc 1naking a now definition under the heading of "letting." The Bill provides that in :rpplying for a license the auctioneer o1· comnTi:-:sion agent has to apply to the nearest courr in the district to the place in which he rarrics on business. ..:\t thP rn·cs-ent time he n1Prc1y has to tnake applica­tion to a eou!·t- within the district where he re-sides. Thi:;; anu'ndn1ent also enables a. liccn.sed conuni~'31on agtnt tu apply for an auctioneer's license by merely filling in the requisite forms and without getting further ftdelity bond and S('t of testimonials.

In the present Act there is no prm-ision for the renC\Yal of license, and, as a result. a man has each year to go through the same' formalities, such as :s·ctting testimonials fron1 r<>pntable citizens and obtaining· a fidelity bond aud all that sort of thing·. In future. j f a n1an has once re( ,]ivcd a license, he will m0rel:v appl:v for rf'llC\v:-tl, further testimonial:, h0ing dl~1wnscd with, unci the san1e thinb will apply to the' bond also. By doing it in this way it will also nb,-iatc the ncccssitv of paying 10~. StEU11p duty, v\rhich I suppoSe to so!uc of thrrn is a consideration. \Ye also n1ake proYis.ion b:- which CYOry comrnis~ion agf'nt shall place ~Jl n1oncys rcr- ivcd by hin1 on t.ccount of a :-_de to a trust account, and dra\Y on it on2 chequL: for his expenses and another to pav his client. In that way we' shall be .able to keep better supervision on tlw operations of commission agents than other­wise. It will also be necessary for every commission agent to keep the Registrar noti­fied of the name of such trust account and the bank at which it is held.

Hon. J. Illullan.]

~54 Auctioneers, Etc. Bill. [ASSEJ\IBLY.] Justices Act Am·ondment Bill.

\\·e also propose under the Bill to give every agent thirty days instead of fourtee_n da vs in w hicb to render an account to h1s dient of any sale made by him. In practice the shortPr period has been found to bo insufficient for the purpose.

\Vo are also tightening up the law dealing \\·ith the fraudulent COll\·ersion of n1one~: hy commission agents , ... ·hich they hold for the use of their clients and as to the fraudu­lent rendering of accounts of transactions by them.

A further amendment proYides that, in the case of the death of a commission agent who has taken out a license and paid his fee, his executDr or irln1inistrator ma:,' obtain a refund of the fee proportionate to the balance of the period for which it \Yas taken out, and in the case o£ d(•ath or serious illne~~; of an auctionC'er provision is n1ade for the appointment of a substitute, pending the u:-;ual application to the court for a transfer.

\Ve also make prm·i,ion by >Yhich it will 11ot be ncces-,o.r"~ now for cYe-rv licensed auctioneer "·ho ;s nn crnployce ~f a joint ,Jock company to post up his name at the place whcro the company t arric-: on busi­Jl -ss. _At presc11t, "·here a con1pany en1ploys a number of auctioneer.:-. it, is necessary to exhibit the names of them all; in future, it ·will be npce:::sar\T to exhibit onlv the name of the corr1pany,~ vYith the wordS "Licensed auctioneer " after it.

Another ,Jause proYides that everv n.uctioneer or connnis:::ion agent shall allo1..~ the Registrar to impect his boob. That may be found neccc .. ary to enable us to

watch tho trans.lC'tions of son1e auctioneers and commissiDn agents.

Really no principle is invoh·ed in the Bill. It mcrelv makrs alterations in the Act \\·hich have~ been foJ__tnLl to be necessary during the administration.

beg to JllOYC-·

'· That th~ Bil1 be no1Y rr ad a second tin1e.:'

:\Ir. ::\IOORE (Auuiuny): There is not much of importauce in this Bill, and I under::rand fro:tn inquiriE~ that the persons concerned are Eatif'fied with it. There is just 0110 little point on which I \Yould like elucidation from the :Ylinister. I understand that a finn 1nay take out a registration for OJJP auctioneer and he can ( nTv on business for the \V hole t~ nn, bnt \V here~ it is a firm oi auctioneers all the 1.1cn1bers 1Yill haye to htke ont lic0nses.

a.Jctioneers.

: A firm like Dal­a clozcn nuctloneers,

will not bn necessary for the nanlC's of all their

1\lr. :\IOORE It seems rather \mfair that, be{ ,1u~c a f~nn rhc sa1ne arnount of c.1pital or 'landing. ehoulcl be compcllccl to take O\lt a liccn e each indiYidual who Bells. Certa inl,- there is not verv much harm done, but tLc\···2 sccnH to be ~an anomaly \vhen a large fin11 is alloy;,·cd to secure a license coycring eyeryone in the finn. Pos­siblv it is the fees that the GoYernmcnt are aft({r; but I think, in a ease like this. it does not .rtn1ount to Yery n_1uC'h. I an1 glad to see ":hat the timt~ for renderin2-· accounts has been increased from fourteen to thirty days. I

[Hon. J. Jlullan.

know that the shorter period causes a g-reat amount of inconvenience. I am glad to sec that the Minister has recognised the recom­mendations of the commission agents who haYe put their claim' before him, instead of ignoring their recommendations as ha~ been the cose in the past.

The ATTOR)[EY-GE:<:ERAL. Oh, no !

:VIr. 1\IOORE: I know that in many cases practical adYice has been given by those engaged in a calling, and that advice has b, nn entirely ignored, yet wo have found the Government afterwards introducing Bills to embody those; things which had been previ­,·ioush· recommended to them. The commis· s'on a·g0nts have gone through this Act very ( uefully, and have discovered some condi­tions that were verv harsh, and have made J·cpresentations to ·the :Minister. and the Minister has now brought in a Bill to make it easier for them. I have nothing whatever to say against that at all. If, in the admin­istering of the Act. it is discovered that there nre ccri a in hardships, then it i< only a L'2asonable thing to expect those haniships to be \vipcd a>va:, as snon as possible. \Yhen we rPach the Committee stag-e, possibly the Minister may be prf>pared to make some alteration, giving the same facilities to the omall firms, rather than giving preference to the large companies as is done at present.

Question-That the Bill be now read a >·'cond time-put and passed.

The consideration of the Bill in Committee v:as made an Order of the Day for Tuesday r~t_xt.

.n~STirEc; ACT AME;'\DJ\IE::\T BILL. SEcoxn RrmrNG.

The ATTORXEY-GENERc\L (Hon. J. :Yiulhn. Fl;nrlr r.,): This is a ven· short n1ensnrc of hYo clau.sc's, but the prirlciple i~ ncvcrthclesJ a very jn1portant one. ..:-i_t nn earlier stage I explained the principle ir,volved. and ] lHIYe vorv little additional inforn1ation to snbn1it. HOn. Ine1nbers know that the object of th1' Bill is to make pro· Yision for admi:5sion to hail of persons charg-ed with certain indictable offences. If a man is brought before th(' court and pleads "::\ot. guilty" to an indictable olfenro he is ontith'd to bail. but if he pleads "Guilt,\·." then the presiding magistrate has to commit him for sentence to the next sitting of tho Supreme Court. 1 contend !hat it is nnfair that a ma.n should h" vo to remain in gaol until the next sitting of the court ro~ardlcss of th1• nature of the oiTenc('. It might be an cffpnce for \Yhich, in the ordinar:· the judge would huYc giYen hirn the of the First on·ondcrs Act had he had _u OJ1por· tunity of dcalin:r with the ea,,, It might oo hap1-0n tl1 t L<o:Iths \\·ould Plapse before he is rloalt >vith. Thic; Bill will obvi, to a ma.u being u:;_1ncct ~!:laril:· incarcL;ratcd in 1wi:;:on. The logical course is to ~i \'' a nuu1 bail if he requires it, eYcn if ho ph 1ds ;; Guilty,"

thr: S<ttnc as a 1nan >,y,ho p!ca_,d,::,. ''Not " rrhere y-iil be fllnple safpona-rd:.:.

police nutglstratc is likely to lm .e hi.; pmvers. The Jl/Opoenl' in th0 Bill t' c been r: \:on1mcndcd 1Yv n1en \Yho hnvo a lo11g snJ val'i{'d e:q),_·rienrc in ihP court5. Tho late Cro\Yll Prc ·_,•cutor, ::Hr. King5bnry, F'OIYIP eo lsid('rabh• tinte aco rccon1Jncnded thi'. l:i:!, buL through of bnsin(".,.-, tho Govr:rn-

to bring it. to the the Ilousc rea.] i: o

Oaths Act Amendn:ent Bill. [14 AUGUST.] Special Ady'ournment, 255

this as another legal reform and approve of it. I beg to move-

" That the Bill be now read a seer <d tirne."'

:\lr. KI:\"G (£o(}'llll : I \Yish jnst fo:·mally sav tlut hon. member~ en this >Jde of lions£~ are 1n accord \vith the principles

,f the Bill. I an1 onlv snrprisPd that it \'LU

introduced long a.go. It is absolutely for a man to be kept in gaol \vaitiug

t ··1 a l f-iinply beranso he has plc_,adc-cl "Guilty."

I aho notice a pronswn in the B1l1 d< al­illg \vith l1C'l';30DS \, ho ~tand th~?tr prchPllq_­ar~; trial LcforP a bench of n1ag1strates when c..' police rn'l~_ri~rratc is not present. If a. prl~oner plc·uls "Guilty," application ~or !,ail in thrrt case can be made to a pohce magistl'ate. That is far better ,than having t) nwke application 1:) a :jndge. If a police wagi-..trntf' can grant ba1l to pcrsor:s who 11lPad (. ::\ot guilty." it shoulc! be JUtit as \'l?tional fo7·, t1h~rrl \7 grant ba1l to persons w: o plead Guilty.

Qm-tion-That the Bili Le now read a 'U"ond timc-~put a.nd pa~sed.

The ronsideration of tlce Bill in Committee ~. ,{.o:. nutdr an Onlcr of t~1P Day for Tu"''3c1ay next.

()A THS ACT A:\IE:\"D:\IE:\"T BILL. SECOXD READIXG.

The ATTOR:\"EY-GE:\"ERAL (Hon. .T. ~.Iullan, Flindr ,·s}: This 1ncasure is ju~t as important a.'S thn Hil1: the> second readiug of 1-vhich \Ve ha,-p JUSt pn~scd. I full> cxplaiaed its prinriple-; at an ea.rlif'l' :;:.tage. The idL'a 1~ to abo1i~h the pra('tlcP of kissin;, the BiiJk \Yhich has .. been

t)utlem IH'd bv dw Il1L'l1ic al profe~.'JlOll as ,_· 1nost in~an.itnl'"' PJ'acticP. The nert~---it;,.' nf kl . .::sing the Bible \yas obYi.at d i_n ~ng·land h,v the pas~age of an atn('nding B!ll.nl 1909. ThJ t \Yas fifteen vears ag·o. and 1t. 1:-J about r"mc that \YC \Yok<; n]J and follm\'ed that "·ise ,o·-:amplc. In the Southc'rn States the pracllce hJs been abolished for a Yel'\' long tnTlc. I f-ound that out wht1 ll I '''as there some ~-cars '-'go. and cndeayoun'd to i11troduc the pl'<'C­

ric<:> here. I did so in the lo\vcr courts, and hoped to succeed in the higher court~. but :-~:rn0 of the judges rnL:-l-rtlld pos.-:il)1;, rightly ~o-that it \Vas undesirable to dispc1Jse \Yilh the practice until l0Frishtion had bc0n intro­ducccl. Some of th 0 lll thowrht it eonld be disr, ,nsetl with immu1iaL'ly, \Yhilc other~ held tn :h(' t.ontrarc-. nnd f,-) con1pl:;-7 \·dth then~

i shcs I am introducing this Bill. It is a ':cry eh ,ir,, ble rcforn1, and one which js ,uppo•tcd by tlw ,,-hole of the medicnl pro­fc 'Sion. I am qui1c l'atisfir'cl that the solcm­ui+:· of the proceedings ,,ill not be interfered iYith through not kissing th(' Bible. I tl·,,rc­[nrc har :murh pL' <:.:urc 1n nloYing-

" That the Bill be no\v read a sccnnd Tin1~-·"

:\Ir, KI~-JG (Loqan): I ;,grcc \Yith the ))l'O·

lcgislation. rrhcrc' is a dor~. t·old onl of the jndgcs '·ho \YHS h0re nL1ny

· ago a1Jont an old tip;;taff. [5 p.1n.] IYa~·. admini::.;t('ring the oath

to a 1:itness in the , itne~~ box and :-.aieL "Tht cYidcllC'' \vhich you ar about to g-iYe is the truth, the whole t: nth. and nothing but the truth: ki~fi th0 <l1l(1not \our thumb. I P011 ~·ou." It eccmcd to he the iclr' 1hrrt a. ~ot into the hox and did not ki" th, book, ~h., \Yj_S not bouLd b.~· the oath. Personally I

rnnsidf'r that if rL person take., an oath with 1 lw int 'ntion of telling the truth and says, " So help me God," that should he a binding oath, n·hethor hcl ki'"OS the Bible, or holds < h(' Bible, or not. I think Sir Samuel Gl iflith on o1w occasion said that he did not c·,t re ,, he thcr a man kissed the Book or not, If the witness got into the box and led the judge to believe he was taking tho oath, that ''·a, <]nite '11fficicnt. If he did not tell tho truth, then he w.ts guilty of perjury. Coke's " Institutes" says that an oath cannot be administered by anyone unless it is allowed lr, an Ad of Parliament or by common lu>Y­m· bv common custom, I take it-and it nnnot he dispensed with unless by an Act of Parliament.

:\"ow, although the Attorney-General in his opening remarks said that some of the judge's thought legislation was unnecessary and others thought it was necessary, from what I can gather I think legislation is lWCC'sary. Evidently that is wh:' the .\ttorncy-General is now bringing in this Bill. kissing the Book is an established practice; it h:Js bccorno a comrnon usn.gt~­a con1mon law. Coke's "Institutes" sa: that if it becomes u common law, it can only bo altered by Act of Parliament. There cc·m to he, broadly speaking, two forms of

oath. One is the adjuration of the Deity, which is looked upon as the Scotch form, n nd the other the oath on the Bible. It doe,, not seem to be possible to fix a date ,.,-hen this practice of kiosing the Bible came into ,-oguc in England. There is an instance of it mentioned in the 14th centun· and a11other in tho 17th century, but it did not become con1rnon practice or corr1n1on law until about the 18th century, and then it was nnin,rsally pmctic-'''d up till comparative!;' recently. In 1888, the Oaths Declaration Act permitted an affirmation to bo taken in Scotch fashion by persons ouUide the domi­cile of Scotland. It then became the univcr­sa l practice in England to he allowed to take the oath in Scotch fashion without kissing the Bible. This gave the medical profes,,ion a very good opportunity of rais, in-;: the qU('3tion about the unwholcsornene";:.; o_·- unhcalihincss of kissing tho Book, especi­ally in the police courts and coroners' courts. wlicre hundreds of people, daily were kissing the same hook. The medical profession, through their propaganda, were able to have ccta blished in England that it was not nerPs­'·"''' to kiss the Book. I may say that at

, time the trouble \Vas on in England judges uncl the oflicials of the courts

seemed to he ccry much against giving up the old practice, but the medical opinion l11'f'\'Hil(_•cl. ttll<l thP I'C~ull- \\as that th~ old pr~cticc disappeared. I think it is time the practice disappeared here, and I n.m ver"'~ u~Lcl tlmt the Aitorncy-Gcncral ha, brought in this reform,

Qncscion-That the Bill bo no\V read a 'Cr·ond timr-p'tt and passed.

Th· considcrcction of the Eill in Commit, t.'t' ',• :J.S m, rl an Order of the Day for Tu0~dn~, next.

c'PECIAL ADJOUR-:fUENT.

The PRFMIER (Hon, E. G. Thcodor•", ('lli!lu(!rn), by leavP, without not.if'e, n1oved­

.. ''I'lw_t the IIou::::·j at itg ri,o;,:ng, do adjourn until Tuesdn,y next."

Qwos1 ion put and passed. The House adjourned at 5.10 p.m.

Jlr·, King.]