Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 4 OCTOBER 1939

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

668 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

WEDNESDAY. 4 OCTOBER. 1939~

J\fr. HPEAKER. (Hon. E, ~J. 1-lanson,,. Buranda) took the chair at 10.30 a.rr:.

QUESTI0:0:S.

POLICE AND NATIONAL ANTHEM AT PUBLIC

GATHERINGS.

M'r. YEATES (East Toowoomba) askedl the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs-

'' 1. What is the rule governing the conduct of police in attendance at public functions, such as those associated witll Anzac Day, when th-e National Anthem is· played; Are they required to- (a) stand to attention, or (b) stam1 to attention and salute~

'' 2. Does the same rule apply to aU ranks; and, if not, what rule applies to· officers and other ranks, respectively~

'' 3. Has the rule in question been altered since 1914~"

Tile SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND• HOlliE AF:FAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon,. Ithaca) replied-

'' 1. General instructions state-(a) AU ranks will, when in uniform, salute imme­diately the National Anthem is com­menced, and remain at the salute until it is finished; (b) on parade, hovvever, officers only will stand at the salute whilst the National Anthem is played; (c) police engaged in traffic, points duty, or any other duty which necessarily requires close attention are not required to salute.

'' 2. See ansvver to K o. 1.

'' 3. There is no knowledge of any instructions in 1914 which differed from the above.''

SPECIAL EMPLOYMENT \VORKS FUND.

llir. NICKLIN (Murrumba), for Mr. WALKER (Cooroora), asked the Trea­surer-

"Will he kindly furnish a statement of the income somce of each item of estima·ted expe11diture contained in the Special Employment Works Fund, showing the respective amounts where any item will be financed from more than one source of income~''

Questions. [4 OCTOBER.] Extension of Hours of Sitting. 669

Tl1e PRElUIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay), for The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer), replied-

From consoli~ dated

From revenue, - Loan income Total. Fund. (State

develop-ment) tax.

--£ £ £

Main Roads 388,000 256,000 644,000 Public estate improv"e~ 170,000 106,000 276,000

ment Forestry 180,000 175,000 355,000 Stauley River Dam .. 470,000

19.,000 470,000

Brisbane River im~ 11,000 30,000 provernent works

P<~&ilways .. .. .. 50,000 50,000 Bureau of Industry .. .. 58,000 58,000 Sundry works .. .. 224,000 224,000

1,219,000 888,000 2,107,000

AMERICAN LOANS.

Mr. NICKLIN (MU:rrumba), for Mr. WALKER ( Cooroora), asked the Trea­surer-

"Exclusive of the National Debt Com­mission, what are the following particulars of each of the American loans:-(1) The balance outstanding (in dollars) at the beginning of 1938-39; (2) the amount (in Australian currency) paid in 1938-39 to serviw each loan, including (a) interest, (b) exchange, and (c) other payments 'I"

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay), for The TR-EASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, Bremer), replied-

'' 1.- Dollars. 7 per cent. loan 8,971,500 6 per cent. loan 10,000,000

(Including 697,000 dollars purchased and held by National Debt Commis­sion.)

"2.-(a) Interest- £

7 per cent. loan 128,104 6 per cent. loan 123,292

(b) Exchange-7 per cent loan 35,956 6 per cent. loan 30,731

(c) Other payments-7 per cent. loan .. 138 6 per cent. loan .. 154''

OXLEY CREEK BRIDGE.

lUr. NBIM.O (Oxley), without notice, asked the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs-

" In view of the fact that a main artery to the city, viz., the Oxley Creek bridge, has been closed to tratlic for over two months, and is likely to be closed for a very con­siderable time, thus causing great traffic inconvenience and financial loss to the re si­dents, will he take the matter up with the Brisbane City Council in an endeavour to have the work expedited~ All facilities exist there for placing a night shift on the job."

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Ithaca) replied-

'' Parliament has given the Governor in Council power to veto actions of local authorities, but not power to initiate work or any action in local government. How­ever, as is usual in these matters, the com­plaint can be sent on to the local authority concerned. ' '

PAPERS.

The following papers were laid on the table:-

A further report by the Inspector of the Auditor-General's Department on the agreement for sale and purchase of flour mills and other assets between the Brisbane Milling Company Proprietary Limited, the Dominion Milling Company Proprietary Limited, and the Queensland Co-operative Milling Association Limited.

Order in Council, dated 2:2 f?eptember, 1939, under the Supreme Court Act of 19211.

E.X:TENSIOX OF HOURS OF SITTING; PRECEDENCE OF GOVERN MEN 'r BUSINESS ON THURSDAY8.

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) : I move-

'' That, during the remainder of this ses­sion, unless otherwise ordered-

1. The House mav on the days allotted to Supply continue "to sit until 10 o'clock p.m. Each of the periods between 10.30 o'clock a.m. and 4 o'clock p.m., and between 4 o'clock p.m. and 10 o'clock p.m., shall be accounted an allotted day nnder the provisions of Standing Order No. 307. All provisions of Standing Order No. 307 and of 8essional Order of 9 August last shall, as far as they are applicable, continue to apply.

2. Government business do take prece­dence on Thursday in each week.

3. The House may continue to sit without lim'i:tation as to time.''

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (10.38 a.m.): I do not propose to offer any opposi­tion to the motion, but I hope the Government and the Premier will coniine si ttings on double days to debates on the Estimates.

The Premier: That is all.

Mr. M.,\HER: And that they be not used for the- purpose of discussing Bills. ~When that course is adopted, it hardly gives us sufficient time to analyse the Bills and pre­pare amendments, nor does it give the public concerned an opportunity to study the effects of the Bills. Moreover, I do not think it is qu~te right for Parliament to rush Bills through with such great rapidity.

Tile Premier: The Bills have been on the business sheet for a considerable time and were placed there for the purpose of giving

670 Extension of [ASSEMBLY.] Hours of Sitting.

hon. members an ample opportunity to study them.

Mr. ~IAHER: It has happened that Bills have been rushed through. When a Bill is put through all stages in one day it does not give the Opposition a reasonable chance of analysing the measure and it certainly does not give the public an opportunity to ascer­tain its effect. The Opposition have an important function to discharge under the parliamentary system.

Tile PremlieJr: That is true, and we help you all we can.

~lr. MAHER: We help the Government; the boot is on the other foot. The Opposition at all times have been ready and willing to help the Government in the reasonable despatch of business, but we do expect to lbe considered on double days and we do think that they should not be used to force a number of Bills through the House before we have had ample time to consider them. It places us at a distinct disadvantage, because we are not able to discharge our duty to the public by making a close dissection of the Bill and ascertaining how the proposals affect the interests concerned.

It will not be so bad if the double days are used only for the consideration of the Estimates, but they should not be used to push through Bills that have not been long on the business sheet. I also hope that it will not be necessary to have more than one double day in each week It will be a fair thing if we have only one double day on the Estima:tes each week, otherwise they will impose a strain on hon. members, particu-larly on me-- ·

The Premier: What about me?

1Ur. MAHER: Under the Constitution the Premier has power to delegate authority to any of his Ministers, who are all capable men, or should be. Therefore, they are able to take a good deal of his responsibilities off his shoulders. They are an fait with the departm·ental Estimates and with the various Bills because they have been in consultation with the departmental officers in the prepara­tion of them. Therefore, they have the advantage over hon. members in opposition who have to visualise the effects of a Bill at short notice. So I say that one double day in each week for a consideration of the Esti­mates and such Bills as have been on the business she'et for a considerable time would be a fair thing. Parliament should conduct its business in a leisurely way and not rush it through because it is not for the good or the welfare of the people. The discrimin­ating members of the public at any rate' do

'no•t think that Parliament should rush its business through. The effect of that prac­tice has been apparent year after year in that amending Bills have had to be intro­,cluced to correct anomalies in Acts, whereas if a little more time had ,been devoted to a consideration of the Bills for these Acts it would not have been necessary to introducR th~m with_ such monotonous regularity. Even th1s mornmg the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs gave notice of his intention to

introduce three amending Bills, but it is not so long since we considere"d the Dental Act and the Pharmacy Act, which are two of those he proposes to amend. There is no doubt that defects in the principal Acts have made it necessary for him to introduce amending Bills and this is symptomatic of the haste that has characterised the attitude of the Government in previous years.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: It is the desire of the Government to keep abreast with modern conditions.

~Ir. MAHER: That is a moot point, the truth of which I can ascertain only when 1 see the amending Bills. Some am'ending Bills have been introduced because something was not foreseen when the original Acts were drafted.

~Ir. P()!we-r: There is nothing wrong in correcting mistakes.

lUr. ~IAHER: Mistakes have to be recti­fied, and it would not be so bad if the Govern­ment profited from one or two of their mistakes and Teadjusted their attitude towards the business of Parliament.

The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: I know of some amending Bills that have had to be introduced to correct defects that aTose by accepting amendment3 moved !by the Opposition.

Mr. MAHER: Oh, no. The hon. gentle­man's subtlety is not e"ffective to-day; he is not borne out by the facts. It is so rare that amendments by the Opposition are accepted that one can really say that it never occurs. The hon. gentleman is merely using his ingenuity to extricate himself from an awk­ward dilemma. 'l'he Opposition are prepared to facilitate the reasonable dispatch of busi­ness in the House, but we do not want the granting of the extm powers the Premier proposed to take to be construed as an invi­tation to the GoYernment to convert liberty into licence. That is to say, we hope hB will not use these powers to make the position of the Opposition hard, and that he will use them sparingly.

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Mackay) (10.45 a.m.), in reply: I congratu­late the Leader of the Opposition on the sensible attitude he has taken towards this motion. I have no desire, nor has any mem­ber of the Cabinet or hon. member of this side of the House, to take undue advantage of any Standing Order or an amendment of the Standing Orders. T'his motion is sim'ilar in character to those that have been passed in recent years about this stage of the par­:iamentaq session. The only thing missing 1s the words-

'' mutatis mutandis.'' On this occasion we put the motion in English phraseology.

We" have no desire to sit double days if they can be avoided. The Leader of the Opposi· tion knows as well as I do that if there is a fixed hour for adjournment the Opposition can, by putting up speakers, control the

Supply. [4 OcTOBER.] Supply. 671

volume of business to be done in any one day. While I have every desire to help the Opposition, I do not propose to give them control of the business that may be done in one day, or in one week. I have consulted with the Leader of the Opposition respecting the business of the House far more than 1 was ever consulted when I held a similar position. I have tried to meet them in every way.

I know also that if many Bills are brought down at the end of the session it is very difficult to appreciate their effects if they are brought on quickly. We will endeavour to avoid that. As in previous years, we will endeavour also, wherever practicable, to give '" oeade!' of the Opposition advance copies uL such Bills, on the usual understanding they are regarded as confidential until the Bills are introduced.

Mr. NIMMO (Oxley): Mr. Speaker-­

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The Premier has closed the debate.

Motion (Mr. Smith) agreed to.

SUPPLY.

COMMITTEE-FINANCIAL STATEMENT­

RESUMPTION OF DEBATE.

(Mr. 0 'Keefe, Cairns, in the chair.)

Debate resumed from 3 October (see p. 668) on Mr. Cooper's motion-

'' That there be granted to His Majesty, for the service of the year 1939-1940, a sum not exceeding £300 to defray the salary of the Aide-de-Camp to His Excelle11cy the Governor.''

Mr. COLLINS (Cook) (10.49 a.m.): I congratulate the Treasurer on the Financial Statement he has brought down and also the care he has exercised in handling the finances of th-e State during the last financial year. As a member of this party, as a tax­payer of Queensland, and as a citizen of the State, I appreciate the way the affairs of this State have been conducted. The compli­ments that he has received from the daily Press must be very encouraging to the Trea· surer, for as a rule the Press does not go out of its way to praise the actions of a Labour Government.

In their leading articles they have com­mented on the ability of the Treasurer in handling the finances last year, and in bud­geting for the year that is to come.

The Treasurer has certainly a very difficult role to fill at the present time. The Budget is brought down at a time of great uncertainty, at a time when we are under the cloud of war, therefore it is impossible to forecast with a great degree of accuracy the movement of the finances of the State. We do not know how far it will be possible to raise the Loan Funds that have been allotted by the Loan Council because we recognise tl1at the Commonwealth Government must have first call on available finance in order to carry out our war obligations. We are part of the

Empire, which is at war, and as part of that Empire we must play our part in that war.

Another question that calls for considera­tion is how far the spending of the money that is to be raised for war purposes is going to advantage this State. We realise that this money should be spent where it is most necessary to spend it, and if it will replace the expenditure of ordinary State borrowings, then the people of Queensland will not feel any great disadvantage; but it is hard to tell at the moment when the Trea­surer is bringing down his Budget for the next financial year how far that expenditure is going to employ people who otherwise would be on works financed by Loan Funds raised by the State.

There is also the question to what extent our primary industries are going to be able to assist in the defence of the Empire and our allies by supplying their war demands. \Af e are producing many of the commodities that are as essential in the prosecution of war as arms and munitions, and we are able to supply a great quantity of these goods to the British Government, who are only too pleased to purchase them from us. The ques­tion of shipping is an important one, for we have to consider whether it will be possible to ship all the go·ods that are purchased from us.

The question of price-fixation is one that has to be settled in regard to the exportation of primary products. We must not overlook our metals, of which we exported a consider­able quantity during the last war. We pro­duced large quantities of copper, zinc, iron, and silver-lead, but since the la~t war, owing to the fall in prices, particularly for copper, which made it unprofitable to carry on the Chillagoe Smelters, production has decreased. The price fixed for metals as well as our other primary products should not be less than sufficient to return a fair profit to those engaged in the industry, otherwise production will not increase.

Then there is the question of maintaining the ordinary development of this State, at least to the extent of keeping in employment all those who should be employed. When I say ''should be,'' I mean that everybody should be employed who is willing and able to work and who is willing to give good service in return for his wages. Another con­sideration is the class of developmental work that must be carried out, and, perhaps, last but not least is the taxpayer's position.

I suppose that the spending of our LoalJ. Funds is one of the most important items in the Budget. A good deal of criticism was levelled at the Treasurer yesterday by the Leader of the Opposition, who said that we were a very extravagant Government, con­tinually spending more and more money, and that the State was not being advantaged to the extent that it should be. There is nothing in the FinanciE." Statement dealing with the spending of loan money that reveals any extravagant or unwarranted expenditure. Virtually the whole of the loan money is going into real developmental work that will

672 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

advantage the State as a whole. It will increase the Stai/e's revenue permanently, and will also show a return to the Treasury.

It is pleasing to know that we have £448,359 more loan money available this year than last year; the only d'oubt is the possibility of raising the whole of the money. Bersonally, I think it is possible, but that will only be seen as the year proceeds.

The loan money that has been allotteu is being spent on such items as these-

Development-£ £

Main roads .. 269,000 Land settlement .. 190,000 Forestry . . 70,000 vV\ater supply and irriga-

tion . . 60,000 Bureau of Rural

Development .. 250,000 Mining . . 30,000 Loans and subsidies to

local bodies .. 930,000 Stanley River Dam .. 470,000 Sundry works . . 54,000

Special employment works Servic·es generally­

Railways Buildings Workers' dwellings

homes

.. 495,000

.. 423,000 and

.. 300,000

2,323,000 300,000

1,218,000

£3,841,000

Can any member of the Opposition argue that any of that money should not be spent in that way~ Is it not being wholly spent in order to develop this great State of oms ~ Is it not necessary to develop iU It has often been said that we must be sensible of our responsibilities as a Government. We have a rich State that is very sparsely populated, and if we are not prepared to develop it-and you cannot develop it unless you are prepared to spend money-we cannot object to its being taken by somebody else. As a Government, we are sensible of these responsibilities, and I .should like to see more money spent on the development of the State, but in the circumstances that exist I think we are try­ing to obtain all the money we can, and that we are spending it in the most desirable manner.

How far is the war going to affect our loan raising~ There is a good deal of discussion about the question, and it has been stated in thA Press that we may not be able to get all the money that we want. During the last war, which ended a little over 20 years ago, we found that it was possible to raise at least the money that was required to keep the whole of the people in this and the other States of the Commonwealth in full-time employment. There was virtually no unem­ployment at that time. Surely we have learnt a good deal since then~ Even though our expenses may be greater now than they were during the last war, surely, if we could raise the money then, we should be able to do it again~

lUr. Nimmo: Do not forget that you did not have an extravagant Labour Party in power in the years before that.

lUr. COLLINS: We had a Labour Party in power during that time, and they were accused of extravagance just as much as the Opposition accuse us at the present time. To-day, hon. members opposite say that the Labour Party is not like it was in 1915, Wlhen really good men were in office. I remind the hon. member for Oxley that the Opposition at that time said exactly the same thing about the then Labour Party as they are saying about us to-uay; and they will probably go on saying the same thing for all time while they are in opposition.

When speaking of the raising of funds, it might be of interest to hon. mem­bers to know the great work that was done by the Commonwealth Bank during the last war. I hope that the present governor of the Commonwealth Bank has the ability that 1' as possessed by its governor of that time, Sir Denison Miller, who found in Australia almost the whole of the money that was required to iinance Australia's effort in that war. In addition to that, he raised approxi­mately £400,000,000 for the purpose of iinanc­ing the various commodity pools that were operating at that time. At a dinner that was given in his honour after the war, he was asked if it was possible to do in peace time IYhat he had done during the war, and his answer w·as that it was possible to iind money for the development of the Common­wealth as easily as it was to obtain it for >var.

A very interesting article appears in the latest report by the Bureau of Industry. Mr. Oolin Olark quotes iigures, based on present­day values of money, as to the cost of war to the various countries. Whilst it is not necessary to quote the whole of them, it is interesting to note that the last depression, which lasted from 1929 to 1934, cost Great Britain, Australia, and the United States of America as much as did the last war. This shows just how much we have to learn about economics-in some cases a depression costs more than a war. Surely there is some way of marshalling our forces to obviate this~ If we can iind all the money that is neces­sary to prosecute war with vigour, then surely it should be possible to raise ample iinance for the much- greater work of build­ing peace~

The percentages of national income in 1913 that were eaten up in ·war costs by the United States of America, Great Britain, and Ausb·alia were-

Per cent. United States of America 39 Great Britain 188 Australia 61

JUr. JUoore: The war did not start until 1914 and you are quoting iigures for 1913.

)fr. COLLINS: That was the national income for that year, which he takes as the basis.

The Premier: The figures the hon. mem­,bcr is quoting show that, compared with the

Supply. [4 OcTOBER.] Supply. 673

national income of 1913, the cost of the war was 188 per cent.

lUr. lUoore: Yes.

lUr. COLLINS: It cost Australia 61 per cent. of the national income of 1913 to c::ury on the war. :i\.Ir. Clark also quoted the depres­sion losses, comparing them with the national income in 1929. The figures were-

Fnited State~ Cheat ]3ritnin Au-tralia

Per cent. 127

40 59

Those figures are startling, because a depTes­sion is a more or less psychological effect and should not happC'n. Yet it can bo more costly than 1var.

J s there nny real rE'ason why we cannot find enough money, not only to play our part during the 1vcu, but also to cany on the necessary cle\·olopment of this State to such nn extent that we shall at least employ the IYhole of our people who otherwise may be out of work~ I think there can be no ques­tion of our nbility to do it, but I am not in a position to say just how it can be clone. Bankers and economists should be able to point OLlt the way to us.

'rho expenditme of m'oney for defence pur­poses is an item that greatly interests Queensland. Perhaps we have not the same opportunities as the other States to develop our engineering industry for the purpose of building planes and making munitions, but there must 'be manv avenues in which we can aid the Commonwealth in the defence of the country and by that means receive as far as possible an equal percentage of the Loan ~'unds that may be spent in other States.

If we are unable to raise our necessary loan requirements, it will be hard for the workers of this State to carry on. Already we haYe witnessed the dreadful spectacle of over 1,000 men being paid off by the Bris­bane City Council. There is much useful 1vork to be done and the council desires to do it. The citizens of Brisbane want the work to be performed, but it is held up for the want of money. We know there is no real shortage of money. The -vyar can be carried on indefinitely, but what is more necessary than meeting the financial require­ments of lo0al authorities and the Govern­ment, thereby enl'ploy:ing our people 'I I feel certain that the Australian people will not stand for this system of conscription, and I do not think for one moment that it is intended to starYe the men into donning uniforms. 'rhere is nothing that would more quickly create a revolt in this country than the thought that such action was designed for that pmpose. I should not accuse the Federal Gon~rnment of doing that at present.

\Ve must take stock of the situation to -~80 that these men are not thrown on the industrial serapheap.

The Premier has already stressed the need of an inland defence road, which is just as good a means of defence as, perhaps, many other schemes, because it would enable troops

1939-Y.

and equipment to be moved quickly from one end of the continent to the other. vV e have an efficient air-transport system, but it is just as necessary that we should have a proper means 'Of transport by road. If these defence roads are constructed, they will help to develop the State and at the same time provide the maximum possible amount of work for unskilled workers. Perhaps this is the most important defence work that this State could undertake. It is so vast that it is virtuallv imnossible to have a big army stationed at ~ eveq vulnerable point, and we should, therefore, have a mobile army and means to mo1·e it quickly from place to place. It \Yould be impossible to do this without hitch unless we had good roads in addition to our railways and air systems. The rail­way line extending from the South to the X orth runs perilously close to the coast, and a number of the bridges might be bombed and destroyed and the service interrupted for a considerable time, but. an inland road, particu­larly one constructed at a reasonable distanee from the coast, is not so likely to be damaged, or, if damaged, to be impassable for long. Therefore, it is essential that Queensland should be encomaged to go ahead with this work at all possible speed.

We must also recognise the utmost import­ance of linking air bases by road with the existing road system. For instance, there is a splendid aerodrome and a seaplane base at Cooktown, one of the first ports of call on the Queensland coast from the East, but no road links it with our road system. 'I'he same may be said of N ormanton, in the Gulf district, which is a sea base for over­sea seaplanes. There is not a proper road connectino- K ormanton with the road system of the St~te, but it would not cost very much to construct a reasonably good road from X ormanton inland in that eountry.

Uairns, a big city, with about 14,000 people and a rich hinterland, would be virtually iso­lated if the railway service 1vas interrupted and the only road t·o the hinterland was par­tially destroyed. Plans have already been prepared for the construction of a further section of the road from Cairns to l\fossman, via Julatten. A part of the road has already been constructed, and has served to open up a good deal of 8plendid agricultmal country, but it is essential from a defence point of view that the people of Mossman should be able to reach the back country if they are called upon hurriedly to evacuate the town. The present road from Mossman to Cairns is in a vulnerable position, and might be easily destroyed. So I contend that a road should be constructed connecting this road with the main tableland road system t'O Cairns, vb Kuranda, that a road should be con­structed from Mossman, via Julatten, linking up with the tableland road system, and that a road should also be constructed from Cooktown to connect with the main inland road system, and all of these roads are absolutely essential for the purposes of defence. It is just as necessary to spenli money on the construction of roads for defence purposes as it is to spend it on aeroplanes, munitions, and other forms of military equipment. Air bases exist in Northern

674 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Queensland. What use is an air base if it is entirely isolated~

I now come to the question: To what extent will our primary inclustries benefit the Empire and the allies in the carrying on of the war? 'rhey eau benefit them to a very great extent.. lt is very pleasing to see what has been done up to the prese11t time in the arrangements made for the sale of the whole of our products, agricultural and pastoral, to the British Government. The agreement as to sugar is an excellent one. It has brought a great deal of relief to the industry. Under it the whole of the Queensland output will be disposed of. The price to be received, though not a high one, is very sound and equitable. 'l'his, coupled with the home con· sumption price, will gi,·e the grower a good return. The same remarks apply to wool. It is announced in the Press this morning that the appraisement will be on an average price of 13~d. a lb. This is a price that will show the grazier a reasonable return without attempting to profiteer out of the troubles besetting the Empire and her allies. Pro­fiteering out of the war should not be countenanced by this or any Government. Primary producers are just as concerned in that respect as anybody else. To inflate prices unduly at the present time is detri­mental to the Empire, wrong in .principle, and must not be allowed. The sale of butter, wheat, and meat has not yet been completed, prineipally owing to the failure to come to an agreement concerning the price.

It is essential that the 1vhole of these agreements should be completed in the shortest possible time in order that the pri­mary producer may know where he stands, and that if he increases his production he will be able to find a market for it. The price should be substantially the average price received for the commodity O\"er the last four or five years, in order that profiteering shall not be indulged in.

An essential factor in these sale agree· ments is a provision that they should con­tinue for two or three years after the conclu· sion of the war, to enable the primary producer to return to a basis of peace-time economy. It may be considered hard to ask the British Govenunent to buy our primary products for two or three years after the eonclusion of the >Yar, but it must be borne in mind that primary products, unlike arms and munitions, are required by the people after the war, which, let us all hope, \Yill not be of long duration. If belonging to the Empire means anything-and it does mean a very great thing-it should mean conceding the greatest possible sccnrity to our people livinrr within the Empire. If we are pre­pared to come to the aid of the Empire during the war it is only reasonable to sug­gest that we should try to retain in a time of peace the trade in goods >ve are able to supply during a time of war.

There is a great tendency towards profiteer­ing during a war. I am pleased to note that the Federal Government have taken the matter in hand and appointed price-fixing commissioners in the various States, whose instructions are to maintain prices at the

level at which they were on the day that war broke out.

I have a cutting from the Brisbane ''Courier-Mail'' in which the follmving sen­tence appears:-

' 'vVheatgrowers entitled to profit the same as makers of munitions.''

I think a better way to put that would be­

'' :Munition makers are entitled to no more profit than the wheatgrowers are entitled to.''

That would be fairer and more equitable. I believe the farmers. ha Ye too fair an outlook to expect to make undue profits out of the Empire's war.

Moreover, inflated prices have a detri­mental reaction. We know that the high prices that obtained dming the last war caused much suffering to the farming community during the years that followed the war.

Mr. Plunkett: It was after the war.

lUr. COLLINS: Yes, but it was the effect of the high prices that obtained during the war. The price of wool rose to over 2s. a lb., butter rose to over 2s. a lb., and land values increased in proportion. That was all right wl1ile those high prices for products were maintained, but when prices fell back to nor­mal it was not possible to carry on profit­ably, and that was the onset of the depres­sion. People who bought land for the pur­pose of growing wheat when wheat was 5s. a bushel could not meet their commitments when the price of wheat dropped to 3s. and 2s. 6d. a bushel. The same applies to other agricultmal and pastoral industries. Even to-day people are still struggling to pay off the debts undertaken when high prices pre­vailed. Moratoriums were instituted in every State in Australia to meet the conditions that existed. Although we want a market for the whole of our products, we do not want prices unduly raised, because if that occurred it wouH have a detrimental repercussion on the whole of the Commonwealth. We do not want our people again to go through the conditions they endur¥d during the last depression.

It is not only in primary products that profiteering may occur. House rents should be kept down to pre-war levels. They have been adjusted to a peace-time economy; let us continue on that basis.

Another item that is very likely to increase is interest on money. Nothing should be so drastically fixed as the interest rates on money. It is highly essential that interest rates should be fixed at the rate operating before the outbreak of war, or, if necessary, at lower rntes. I \Yas interested to read in the ''Courier-Mail'' recently an article by Mr. J. M. Keyncs, a noted English economist and one-time governor of the ::VIidland Bank He said that interest rates should be kept as low as 2~ per cent. One of the principal causes of the rise in prices in every industry is the rise in interest rates. The Federal Government would be '\Yell advised to fix intereo~ rates at the rates operating at the

Supply. [4 OCTOBER.] Supply. 675

outbreak of war at the beginning of Septem­ber. Those rates were adjusted to a peace· time economy and they should be maintained on a peace-time basis. The same amount of money 1vill be provided for industry at a rate of 4 per cent. as would be provided if it was 6 per cent. or 7 per cent. If you keep interest rates down you can increase the amount of currency to the amount that is necessary to keep all our industries going and all om people working for wages, and if wages and prices of commodities are :fixed, no inflation will occur. If any of these items get out of hand you get an unbalanced economy, n rise in prices, temporary prosper­ity, and the inevitable slump like that out of 1vhich wl€ have just emerged.

The follo,.-ing item appeared in the Press of 3 October:-

''Local Shipping Freights Increased.

''Shipping freights have risen by 20 per cent. to-day for vessels of the aqsociated steamship companies trading in intra­state and interstate ports.

''The vessels of James Patrick and Com­pany Proprietary Limited, and John Burke Limited, who are not members of the Aus­tralasian Steamship OwneTs' Federation, are not affected by the increase, cargo being carried at the old rates until further notice.

''The increase in the freights, it has been officially stated, is due to the increased cost of running the vessels occasioned by war and other risks.''

Wages have not gone up as a result of the war. Insurance rates may have increased to a certain extent, but even if they 1 have doubled or trebled, that would not warrant an increase of 20 per cent. in freight rates. If that is going to be allowed, it is going to have its repercussions on everybody who t1ses shipping. In the far North the people have to ship sugar, maize, bacon, and meat, and an increase in freight rates will mean an increase in the price of commodities, and this will necessitate an increase in wages, because the eost of living will go up.

I instanced that increase in freight rates to show how essential it is that we should control the prices of commodities from start to finish and keep them as close as possible to normal peace-time prices. I think it is very desirable at the present time that some organisation should be set up to deal with those tungstic acid metals that are used for the purposes of war. During the last war, the price of our molybclenite and wolfram went up to somewhere in the vicinity of £500 a ton, which was more than double theiT present price, but immediately after the war they slumped to nothing. During the last two or three years the mining :fields that mine those metals have experienced a slight revival, but at the present time there is no sale because there is no organisation to handle them.

It is essential for the welfare of the mining industry that these met a Is should be controlled by the Commonwealth Government or by the State Government acting for and

on behalf of the Commonwealth Government, in order to ensure to the miners a fair ret~rn for their efforts. These metals are essential war materinl and there is no doubt that they will be required. If nothing is done, the miners will not know where to sell them, and the ore buyers, who know that metals will soon bring good prices, will make a huge profit. I want to see any profits that may be made going to the man who risks his life in order to obtain the metals. He is entitled to any benefit that may accrue through increased prices or better marketing facili­ties.

I believe that we must work in very close collaboTation with the Commonwealth Govern­ment ancl the rest of the British Empire in order to play our full part in lninging the war to a successful conclusion.

We lune heard much from the Opposition about the increase in taxation. \VC' know that there has been an increase in taxation over a nuniber of vears, but we know, too, that with it there has been a marked increase in prosperity. An examination of the figures, based on the present-day values of money, will disclose that our national ([~bt per capita has incrcase(l by very little. In 1914, before the war, and wl1en t'he price of gold was £4 17s. 6c1. an oz. as against £9 odd to-day, the public de·bt was £81 4s. 5d. a head. To-clay, measured in terms of the present purchasing power of money, that figure has risen to only £88 10s. 3c1.

Have we anything to offset that slight increase? I say emphatically that we have a tremendous amount. As examples of the added value that we have received for that increase we have only to look at the excellent main roads that are running throughout the length and breadth of the State, increased railway faciliHes, and public buildings, the growth of which in recent years, I suppose, has constituted a record.

As a better guide to whether the burden of loans is greater now than it was before the last 1var, we have the fact that in 1915 the real income per employed man in Australia was £247 and in 1938 that figure has increased to £360. The figures I quote are those that wew given by Mr. Colin Clark. I contend that the figures I have quoted prove conclu­sively that the extra £7 of national debt per capita is more than offset by increased wealth production. The :figures I have quoted are those for the whole of the Commonwealth; I am una hie to obtain similar figures for Qurenslanrl, hut I am confident that if they were available Queensland's position would look even better than it does at present. Could we have any better argunient than the facts I have quoted to prove that the money has been wisely spent and that we are not feeling the burden of the national debt ot £88 10s. 3u. per head of population to any­tltinrr like the same extent as the £81 4s. 5d. was felt in 19141

There is a great deal of misconception about taxation. Many persons, when speak­ing about taxation, are inclined to forget just what we obtain for the taxes that we pay. If you measure the burden of taxation in

676 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

that way, I feel that no great exc:pti?n ca.n be taken to the incidence of taxatwn m this State.

Yesterday, the Premier mad~ a comparison of the· taxation proposed to be Imposed clurmg 1939-40 in Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales. He showed that in Queensland taxation amounted to £7 9s. a head, in Vic­tOTia £5 Ss. 7d., and in New South \Vales £7 11 s. 10d. Previously, Queensland had been the highest-taxed State in the Common­wealth when measured in terms of the amounts paid, but at present New South \Vales is the highest. That is not a fair measure of taxa­tion by any means, because we know that wages are higher in Queensland and our wealth a head of population is higher here than in the other States, \\ ith the result that it is much easier to meet the taxation we have to pay than it is else\Yhere.

·we have to consider also the benefits the publie obtain from taxation. The two prin­cipal item's to be considered are education and health. A comparison of the amounts expended in the various States will show that in Queensland 39s. 6d. a head of population is spent on education against 36s. 1 1d. in New South \Vales, and 32s. 5d. in Victoria. Those figure-s are illuminating, and proYe that the people receive great benefits for what they pay. Great benefits are also derived from the health seTvices. Queensland expends 26s. a head of population in health services, while New South Wales spends 35s. 4d. (leaving out child endowment) and Victoria 15s. lld.

}Ir. Duf.l'gan: And we have better hos­pital faeilities.

~Ir. COI"LINS: As the hon. member for Toowoomba reminds me, they have poor hospi­tal aecommodation in .New South Wales; wports in the Press show that hundreds are waiting to obtain admission to th-e public hospitals, but are unable to do so. You never hear of such complaints being made in this toltate, and I hope that no occasion for them will ever arise.

One would think, on hearing the comments made on taxation in this country, that Queens­land and Australia were amongst the highest­taxed countries in the woTld, but th-at is not so. According to ''The National \V ealth of Australia,'' published loy ~~lessTs. Clark and Crawford, two well-known economists, taxa­tion, as a percentage of national income, including municipal rates, in nnious countries is as follows:-

Country. Great Britain United States France .. Denmark Sweden .. Holland Germany Norway .. Finland Italy Australia Switzerland

PeTcentage of national income.

Per cent. 25.2 23.4 26.3 20.1 18.9 18.6 23.0 25.1 20.0 30.6 16.0 14.3

That table shows that Australia is the second lowest-taxed country in the world. Ancl you also have to take into consideration the benefits that are received. The old-age pension controlled by the :B"edeTal Govern­ment is one of the most liberal schemes pro­vided by any country in the worlLl. Our hospital and educational systems give ample benefits. Surely we, as a people, must reeog­nise that in this country we are receiving great benefits that are not generally ~·eceived by other people in other countries~

A great deal of loose talk is imlulged in about taxation.

An endeavour has been made by hon. mem­bers opposite to prove that the Government are taxing the people heavily, but their remarks tend to mislead the people. For instance, I have a copy of the ''Taxpayer,'' the offieial organ of the Taxpayers' Asso­ciation of Queensland, which attempts to­show that Australia is a Yery heavily-taxed country, and that the people of Queensland,. in particular, are ,·ery badly dealt with in that respect. In its publication of Septem­beT, 1939, it sets out the burden of taxation in the principal countries men~ioned by ::'lfessrs. Clark and Crawford, to wlnch I have already referred, but the figures are mislet;d· inO' because they do not take loml authonty ta~ation in those countries into account. Most of us know that the administrative anrl finan­cial relationship between local authorities and Governments in other countries is somewhat similar to the relationship between the State ancl Federal Governments in this country. For instance, we know that education, health, and police matters are controlled by the loc~l authorities overseas, and that the cost IS borne out of taxation levied by those bodies. That ta"ation is not levied by the Govern­ments themselves and it is unfair to quote the burden of t~xation imposed by various oYerseas Governments without including the local authority taxation in those countries.

For instance, this publication says .tha~ the taxation per head in over-sea eountnes IS as follows:-

United Kingdom France Germany Italy U.S.A.

Then it goes on to give in Australia-

New South Wales Victoria Queensland .. South Australia \Vestern Australia Tasmania Commonwealth

the

£ s. d. 24 5 0

8 13 0 21 0 0

7 0 0 10 13 8

taxation per head

£ s. d. 16 0 0 15 0 0 17 0 0 18 0 0 16 0 0 15 0 0 15 8 4

To say the least of it, the figures. are at very great Yariance with those g;.ven by Messrs. Clark and Crawford. For u;stanee, the ''Taxpayer'' says that the taxah~n p~r head in the United States of Amenca IS £10 13s. 8d. whereas ::\Iessrs. Clark and Crawford say' that it is 23.4 per cent. of the national income. In ·other words, the

Supply. [4 OcTOBER.] Supply.

"Taxpayer" says that taxation in the United States is much less than it is in Australia, whereas Messrs. Clark and Crawford say it is nearly 7 per cent. greater. So much for the reliance that can be placed on figures that are really inspired and are prepared only for the purpose of getting a better deal from the Royal Commission on Taxation. We also know that even hon. members in this Chamber attempt to misrepresent the position in this country.

'ro-day democracy is virtually at the cross· roads and is being challenged by the dic-tat,or countries in a way that it has never been challenged before. Italy, up to the present, has adopted the attitude of neutrality in the present war, but is certainly not on our side. So that we really have the three great dictator countries, Russia, Germany, and Italy, threatening the democratic form of govern­ment in other countries, and unless the democracies are prepared to stand up to their obligations in a reasonable way the demo­cratic 'system must fail. I have enough faith in the people of the democratic countries to know that they will strive t,o maintain that form of government. Has it not been often said that the democratic, system would be all right but for the democrats} There is a good deal of truth in that. Here in this Chamber, instead of indulging in fair and reasone'd criticism, nearly every hon. member opposite overstates his case-many of them grossly so.

::\Ir. Yeates: Do you do it?

lUr. COLLINS: We on this side challenge those statements by oYerstating our case again. That is not a reasonable way of doing busi­ness. I am not saying that we are angels and that members of the Opposition are not.. I say that we on both sides of the Committee cany on a certain amount of misrepresenta­tion, which is wrong. It would be better if we all got down to a fair basis of criticism.

1\Ir. Russell: You might speak to the Premier about it.

!fr. Yeates: Get the Premier to start off.

)fr. COLLINS: I think that the Premier states his case in a fairer way than most hon. members. Since I haYe been in this House, I have not seen the Premier successfully challenged. For instance, we haYe the hon. member for Kanango always complaining about the poor farmer's being starwd off his farm and forced into the cities.

)fr. EDWARDS: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. I have neYer made a statement about the poor farmer's being starved off his farm. ·I object to that state­ment.

lUr. COLLINS: If the hon. member for N anango says he never made such a state­ment-that the poor farmer was starved off his farm-then I accept his denial, but if hon. members read '' Hansard'' they will see that if he did not make that statement that is certainly the implication of many pages of his speeches in '' Hansard. '' I do know that on mm1y occasions he has said that the farmer

is being forced into the cities because of the difficulty he has in making a living on the land.

Mr. Edwards: That is quite true, too.

1Ur. COLLINS: The hon. member for N anango has made, and adheres to that. statement, notwithstanding that not only production of butter but the price ot lJ;1tt.er also has never been higher in the history of the State.

lUr. Edwards: And the conditions in the city are better.

JUr. COLLI-xS: I counsel the hon. mem­ber to be fair. The hon. member for Cunningham knows the wheat farmer Yery well. He never gives a glowing account of his. prosperity, yet t'o-day the wheatgrower is reaping the greatest harvest eYer obtained in this State. Is that evidenc·e that the Oppo­sition's statements are true or untrue~ 'l'he same remarks apply to sugar production. To-day, sugar production is higher than it has ever been. They apply also to meat production. The production of meat, which in 1932-33 was 184,000,000 lb., was 276,288,00(} lb. hst year. Therefore, meat production is approximately double what it was a few years. ago. There, again, is evidence of misrepre­sentation on the floor of this Chamber, in order to mislead the public. It is very unfair.

lUr. Edwards: Why do you not tell the tmth yourself~

Jlir. COLLINS: I challenge the hon. member to disproYe any statement I have made this morning. If he can do so, I shall thank him. I am not here for the purpose of indulging in misrepresentation, but to try to state a fair case. It is, the duty of every other hon. member to try and do likewise.

)fr. JliOORE (Aubigny) (11.44 a.m.): Unlike the hon. member for Cook and the Premier, I am unable to go into raptures OYer the Budget introduced by the Treasurer. Several things in it are merely propa.;;anda­and progagancla of a very poor sort-and another featme of it is the glossing over of facts in order that the attention of the public may be diverted from them. Silly exaggerations are made to achieve that end.

The Premier, however, said one or two true things. He said, for instance, that the Trea­surer collected more money last year than any T'reasurer had ever collected before, and that he had also spent more money than any 'l'reasurer has spent in Queensland before.

It does not require a great intellectual genius to spend more of other people's money than any other Treasurer has spent. Any­body could do that. The bi,ggest fool on earth can spend other people s money-and get poor advantage for it. The. fact of collecting more money and SJ?endm~ more· money does not prove that he IS an mtellec· tual geniU's.

Mr. "Vfalsh: A sensible man spends it wisely.

Mr. JIOORE: Exactly; that is exactly "hat I am coming to-I am grateful to th@'

678 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

hon. member for Mirani. It is not a ques­tion of how much money a man can spend hut what he spends it on and ·what values he gets for it. Has the Treasurer received n1lue for the money spcnt9

lUr. Power: Of course he has.

lUr. MO ORE: I can understand that interjection, coming as it does from a former alderman of the Brisbane City Council. An hon. member that held a position in that august body and saw the way things have been going on for the past few years would think that value v. as received.

!Ir. Power: I will answer you when you sit down.

JUr. ll!OORE: I know he will, but he should answer correctly and let the people set what the facts are, instead of trying to mislead them, as a very large number of hon. members opposite do. What every hon. member opposite has been trying to dO for years past is to show that the position to-day is better than it was in 1931-32. The whole of their propaganda and their case for years past is that we are in a better position to-day than we were in 11931-32>--' 'Isn't it wonderful~ After all these years, when there has been an increase in prices, when the whole position of the world has changed, we are better off in Queensland than we were in 1931-32." That is the sort of propa­ganda that goes on from year's end to year's end

What is the reason why the Government were able to get the necessary credit~ Merely the positive action taken by the several Governments in 1931 to restore the credit of this country. !t was positive action-not merely sitting down and hoping for some­thing to turn up and saying: "\Ve want to spend more money.'' The Commonwealth Bank is providing more money because of the positive action taken to restore the credit of this country and ena:ble it to obtain necessary funds to enable interest to be Teduccd. That is what happened.

The Premier said a while ago that every­body knew that Treasury bill interest was going to be reduced. In 1930 Treasury bill 1nterest was at the rate of 5~ per cent., in 1931 it was 6 per cent., and in June, 1H31. all the Governments of Australia combined for the purpose of restoring the credit of this nation. On 31 .T uly, 1931, the interest on Treasury bills was reduced to 4 per cent. in conformity with Commonwealth bond inter­est. The interest ·was not reduced till the credit of !this country was restored by the positive action of the several Governments-it was not by acciacnt or talking-yet every hon. member on the Government side of the House has taken it upon himself to criticise the Government for what they did at that time. This is the onlv State in" the Oommonwealth in which those {,-!Jo were in opposition at that time have condemned the ac,tion taken in that period of depression. I wonder what thev wouid have thought if I had gone round and .criticised Mr. Scul!in for the action he took.

Should I not be the meanest of curs~ I recognise that he did the right thing in the national interest, and he did it knowing that other people were going to reap the benefit. He did not think that any politician in Australia would JJe so mean as to use that action to advance his own political interests, but the Government and other Labour orcranisations in this State have used it for thftt purpose.

}Ir. Jesson: You do not think that all the people are fools, do you~

:!lir. JIOORE: No; some of them are, unfortunately. I should like hon. members to look at this question from the point of view of a farmer or grazier who is hit by a drought and who >Yorks himself to the bone in order to prepare his land for crops when the season breaks. Suppose that before any benefit can accrue from his labour owing to unpayable prices he is driven off the land, ar:d the man who takes his place gets the ram and reaps the advantage of the other man's work. He sa vs: ''Look what I have done! '' Do you want "to' go back to what it was when the other man had it'?

JUr. Jesson: That is no analogy; one thing is nature--

lUr. ~IOORE: The hon. member was talk­ing about the people being fools; I said that some of them were.

That is an exact analogy. The Govern­ment in office at a particular time are held responsible for bringing about a world-wide depression. That is a mean attitude to take \•:hen it is known that the action that was taken by them and other Governments at that time was a positive action aimed at the improYement of conditions in Australia-and more than that, was successful and paved the way for recovery.

On the first page of the Financial State­ment, the Treasurer says-

'' During the seven-year period ended 30 June, 1939, the monetary value of concessions in the nature of remissions of Crown revenue and charges granted by the Government has aggregated £3,223,640. ''

Can you imagine anything more stupid or more misleading~

The following headings appear under ''Particulars of Concessions'':-

''Reduction of interest on loans to borrowers-State Advances Corporation (workers' dwellings, workers' homes, &c.) ; Agricultural Bank; .Local au1:horities, &c.; Other bonowers (Department of .Public r~ands, &c.).''

No 1, 1\Ir. 0 'Keefe, the expressed condi­tion under which the reduction of interest was made to the Commonwealth and State Governments was that they should pass on to their borrowers the advantage that they received. 'rhere is no generosity there at all. It was a condition when the Premiers' Plan was agreed to, that the people of Australia

Supply. [4 OcTOBER.] Supply. 679>

should be asked to reduce their interest voluntarily.

1Yalsh: Did your Government do that

::IIr. lUOORE: Yes.

1Ir. Walsh: They made the reduction compulsory.

lUr. ::IIOORE: There was no Act. A definite condition was agreed to that the Governments should pass on the assistance that they received by getting a voluntary reduction in interest. It would not have been fair and reasonable for the Governments to accept a generous concession from the bond­holders throughout Australia unless they \Yere going to pass the benefit on to the borrowers from them, yet the Treasurer actu­ally puts it down as a concession that is being given by the Government. I have never heard of such a thing. It is one of the most misleading things you could think of.

::l'rr. Power: Why do you not quote the \Yhole of the paragraph~

J[r. 1\IOORE: I shall. Anybody would tlunk that the concessions given for rebates ~lf and reductions in freights on wool, starv­l~lg stock, and fodder were instituted. by this C.overnment, but they were not. Any Govern­men.t worthy of .the name would grant con­cesswns to a sectwn of the people who are in <lifficulties in an endeavour to help them through.

Such a Government, however, would not put it down as a justification or excuse for a Budget that cannot be defended in any other way. We find such things as-

'' Department of Public Lands con­cessions-Rental reductions under Wool Relief Act.''

Why were those reductions given? Simply because wool prices fell so disastrously and that section of the community had to be helped. There is no generous concession in that. That is just what any ordinary reason­able Government would do. It is not usual for a Government, after helping people, to pat themselves on the back and to excuse a Budget such as this by saying: ''Look what we have done, look at the help we have giwn to these people.''

Jir. Jesson: There is nothing there about taking Is. a week from the State children.

)!r. ll'IOORE: Nothing. Let us now con­sider page 3 of the Treasurer's Financial Statement. There he says-

"Railway revenue for the year; amount­ing to £7,638,525, reached a new high level nml was greater than that of the previous year by £412,197, and £122,525 in excess of the Budget anticipation. Train and ton mileages in excess of all previous peaks were achieved. This exceptional traffic was the result of the favourable seasonal con­ditions experienced throughout the greater portion of the State with consequent record wheat and sugar-cane crops, and increased

production of practically every other agri­cultural commodity, coupleil with a record production of cream and butter and a sub­stantial increase in livestock tonnage.''

Then we find that there is a deficit of £72,130, after writing off £28,000,000! The Trea­surer's Financial Statement continues-

'' Railway expenditure at £6,067,028 exceeded that of the previous year by £314,351, and was principally due to the· payment of award, basic wage, and auto­matic increases to the staff, extra cost of handling the additional traffic ... ''

At one time the excuse that was given for the railway deficit was that there was a drought, with a consequent falling off in the amount of traffic, although despite this fall­ing off huge staffs had to be kept on. This year, however, we find that the railways handled more traffic than ever before, but showed a deficit again, and the excuse is that the deficit was-

'' principally due to the payment of award, basic wage, and automatic increases to the staff, extra cost of handling the additional traffic. , . ''

::l'rr. Duggan: That might be an argu­ment for an increase in freights.

ll'Ir. 1\lOORE: I am going to talk about that now. I propose to quote from pages 15 and 16 of the Treasurer's Financial State­ment for the last year, in which he said-,-

" It is a basic principle of sound budget­ing that the railway service should meet its full costs. Some years ago, after a most careful inquiry, the railways were relieved of the burden of interest on their unecono­mic lines, and the present capitalisation carefully assessed as a fair present-day capital value. This assessment having been made, there can be no question of renewed failure to meet interest charges. Nor can. I see any reason why the taxpayers in general should be called upon to assist financially a particular group among them­selves-the users of the railways. In some respects vv1e all make use of the railways, but some make more use than others, and must pay a fair price for the service which they receive. The railway user is indeed already being subsidised by the general taxpayer to the extent of £1,000,000 a year in respect of remission of interest on uneconomic branch lines. This benefits mainly, though not entirely, the users of these branch lines, and the conununity does not gruc]ge them this assistance. But the extent of this assistance should be recog­nised and the general taxpayer should not be forced into giving fmther assistance.''

Unfortunately, the taxpayer has placed at the helm men who use the railways more for poli­tical enils than for their proper purpose, and consequently we have continual deficits.

Jiir. Duggan: Would you recommend the closing of non-paying branch lines~

Jiir. MO ORE: No; last year the Trea­surer said that they were going to subsidise

£80 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

those to the extent of £1,000,000 a year. The point to ·which I wish to refer, however, is this passage in last year's Financial State­ment-

'' To meet this situation the Government is confronted, therefore, with the necessity of revising the existing railway fares and charges, so that such charges will be in consonance with the cost of the services provided. ,An all- round increase of 5t per cent. on existing fares and freights will become operath·e from 1 November. It is estimated that this will produce additional rail1vay revenue to the extent of £266,000 for the current financial year.''

Of comse, when the country finds itself in a difficult position, the Government do not look round to see whether any of the loss can be prevented or \Yhether there is any cxtra\·agance. They promptly say: ''We wi]] put up freights and fares. We \Yill put up charges.'' They make the user pay, and never inquire how the undertaking is managed, no matter what the loss may be. No investigations arc made to see if it is being run efficiently; they simply increase charges. The present Government increased those charges by 5t per cent., and, after having the best year in their history, with more stock than e\ er to carry, 1ve find there is still a deficit of £72,102.

]}fr. Power: Are you suggesting that the 'G ovemmcnt should reduce wages?

JUr • .:\IOORE: No, it is not my job to :reduce ,., ages. It is the Industrial Court's.

IUr. Power: You abolished awards.

Jir. .:UOORE: Certainly. What would the hon. member expect me to do~ Would the hon. member expect the Premier to go South and make a definite arrangement with the Commonwealth--

]}fr. Jones: None of the other States abolished awards.

~Ir. lWORE: Yes, they did. Would the hon. member expect the Premier to make a ·definite arrangement to reduce uncontrollable expenditure by 20 per cent. and come back nnd give instructions to the Industrial Court to do it, or would he, like an honourable man should, expect the GoYe'mment to take the responsibility~

JUr •• Tones: The Attorney-General Mr. 1\facgroarty, said that he would ringbrrrk the Industrial Court.

Jl'Ir. .:\fOORE: Never mind what the Attorney-General srrid. I want to mrrke this point cleitr. Does the hon. memher think it \Yould have been a fair thi1w for me to make that arrangement and then instrnct the Industrial Court to carry it out or does he think that the Industrial Comt ~hould be independent, and that the fair thing was for the Gowrnmont themselves to take the respon­-sibility?

::'fir. Power: We do not think you should have made that arrangement.

lUr. :lWORE: That is a different point of view; I am not arguing that. I do not

think it \Yould have been fair to put any Industrial CoUTt in the position of having to carry out an agreement that was made by the Premier. There is a table on page 4 of the Financial Statement that analyses the expenditure, and shows certain percen­tages. The Treasurer sits back and says: ''Well, it is a very difficult position. I have all this uncontrollable expenditure.''

The Premier: He stood up.

lUr. Jl'IOORE: Well, he stood up, but he sat down afterwards. (Laughter.) He says: "I have pointed out that the uncontrollable expenditure position makes it absolutely impossible for the greatest Treasurer in the world to make the Budget any better than I have made it.'' The mere fact of sitting back after saying the uncontrollable expendi­ture position was hard and had to be met, and that the Budget had to be framed accordingly, does not en cl the matter. The greater part of the present uncontrollable expenditure is not due actually to the woTk of the present Treasurer, but has accumulated over a long period of years, but the Treasurer is to blame for heavily increasing it each year. The uncontrollable expenditure is increasing each year, and although the T'reasurer may com­plain about it to-day next year's Treasurer, whoever he may be, has to make an appro­priation to meet that increased uncontrollable expenditure.

I should like hon. members of the Com­mittee to look at p~ ge 4" of the financial tables, which shows tk ~otal receipts from loan works and seTVices. In 1931-32, the figure was £2,639,033, and in 1938-39 it was £2,587,280, or £51,753 less. The actual charge upon consolidated revenue in 1931-32 was £2,365,592, ancl in 1938-39 it IYas £2,566,649, o'r £201,057 more.

On page 13 of his Budget the Treasurer said-

" It \Yill be seen that whilst a sum of £2:),034,259 has been expenrlc<l from Loan :Funcl on development and capital projects, the public debt has increased by £15,:391,456 only. This has been possible by the utilisation of the repayments to Loan :B'uncl by local authorities and indivi­dual borrowers.''

Quite so. He says: "I have spent £25,000,000 in loan money from 1932 to 1939.'' If one spends £25,000,000 on capital and develop­ment ]J'rojects, should not one e·xpect to get a little better return from the m·oney than that shO\vn, and so be able to relieYe the tax­payers of some of the burden instead of increasing iH It seems extraor:~inary that £31,000 less should be receivecl from loan \Vorks anrl serYices after :m expenditure of :mother £23,000,000, nncl it seems rather remarkable that another £201,000 must be taken from the taxpayers to make up the cleficiency. "\Ve realise that people borrow money to de\·elop their businesses and extend their operations, aml that Governments clo the same thing.

Mr. Walsll: I suppose you realise that we built more schools.

Supply. [4 OCTOBER.) Supply. 681

..'\Ir • ..'\IOORE: Yes, but the Government as a rule do not spend £25,000,000 on the building of schools. The hon. member should remember that a sum of £250,000 is taken from the loan money made available to the J\lain Roads Commission and placed in the Consolidated Revenue Fund each year, and that the Main Roads Commission is not charged with the payment of interest and xcdemption on that sum. An almost direct transfer from loan to revenue. All told, a sum of £2,000,000 will have been transferred in that way this year, and that represents an uncontrollable expenditure of £90,000 a year for interest for which there is no asset.

::ur. Power: Did not your Government transfer money from T'n1st :!<'unds to con­solidated revenue?

..'\'Ir. ItiOORE: Yes. I have never denied that we did.

l'\Ir. Po•wer: You have.

llr. lUOORE: Not at all. I am not talk­ing about •rrust J<'mHls. l am speaking about the practice of txansferring loan money from the J\fain Roads Fund to consolidated xevenue, and I am pointing out that the trans­fer of the £2,000,000 represents an addition to uncontrollable expenditure of £90,000 each year for interest on that sum. 'rhen \Ye have all the other loans, which amount to a bout £23,000,000. That represents a net increase in the national debt of £15,000,000, and is explained by the repayments from local bodies, &c. But the important factor is whether we are spending the money in the way that we should.

'l'he Premier: In the return from the expenditure of £25,000,000 you have not included the payment of interest by the local authorities to whom the money ~was lent.

lllr. lUOORE: Yes. That is part of the repayments to the Crown.

'l'lle Premier: You have not included that fi,gure.

lUr. MOORE: Yes.

The Premier: No. you have not. A sum of £15,000,000 was spent by tlH: Crown and £10,000,000 by the local nuthO'ritics, but the local authorities haYe paid the interest on that £10,000,000.

lUr. :i}I00RE: Yes.

The Premier: On the total indebtedness of the GoYernmcnt there is a certain return, but in that figure you gave for a return on the amount involved you should include repay­ments by the local authoritie~' on that £10,000,000, which you have not done. lt is a separate figure in a separate table.

::ur. ItiOORE: Mr. O'Keefe, I took my statement from page 13 of the Treasurer's Financial Statement, where he says that the r;ublic debt has increased by £15,591,456 only, and adds-

" This has been possible by the utilisa­tion of the repayments to Loan Fund by local authorities and individuallborrowers. ''

Tile Premier: My objection is you hav& not told the whole story. You haYe not stated the figures of repnyme11ts by local authorities.

iUr. JIOORE: Yes, I have.

Tile Premier: You have not. They are in a separate table.

:lUr. :i}I00RE: What the Premier is talk­ing about is local authority borrowings from o11:tside sources, but this statement does not include those bonowings.

The Premier: The figure you use does not include the repayments. You have excluded them. To get at the proper figure you ought to include them.

lUr. !IOORE: I have taken the figures that the 'l'reasurer gave in his Budget.

'l'lle Premier: No, only part of them .

!Ir. JUOORE: I have given all the figures he gave in his Budget. I have shown that £10,000,000 represented repayme11ts by local authorities, that the 'l'rcasurer points out that whilst £:25,034,359 had been expended from Loan Fund the public debt increased by £15,591,456 only. I am pointing out that while £2,5,000,000 of loan money has been expended we are getting a less return from loan pu1lic works and services than in l\J31-J:l.

The Premier: You are wrong still. You see, £2ii,OOO,OOO was spent, £10,000,000 was repaid by local authorities, and only £15,000,000 was added to the public indebted­ness.

!Ir. !IOORE: Yes.

The Premier: Do you not see that the re-lending of the repayments represents revenue that should be included in the figure which only applies to the £15,000,000;

lUr. !IOORE: No, not at all.

'file Premier: My word!

Jlr. MO ORE: I am talking about the returns.

The Premier: That is where you have gone astray.

:1£r. MO ORE: The Premier knows per­fectly \Yell that the net increase in the national debt in the last seven years is £15,000,000.

The P1·emier: Yes.

lUr. lUOORE: Leave out the £25,000,000 if the Premier olbjects to it, and take the figure of ;\;15,000,000.

The Premier: I am not objecting to it at all.

}lr. 1\IOORE: I am trying to point out the trouble we are getting into, that we arc not getting the return on what we spend. We are spending a lot of money ancl making uncontrollable expenditure more and more diffi­cult because we are not getting the return :t'rom the public works and services that we should in order to he1p the taxpayer.

The Premier: You can argue that in general terms-that is your business-but if

682 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

you want to get at the true return you must take into account all figures.

JUr. )IOORE: I am taking into account all the figures given in the financial tables of the Treasurer. He points out that the return from loan public works and services is £51,000, less than in 1931-32., and the tax on the taxpayers is £201,000 more in spite of the fact that all this loan money has been spent in the meantime. That is a very important factor, indeed. Uncontrollable expenditure is one of the big factors that make the Treasurer's position difficult, but it is no use for the Treasurer to blame uncon­trollable expenditure, because he is to a large extent responsible for not getting a 1noper return on it that would assist him in meeting it. If you had a· large amount of i:his n1oney spent in de;""clopnlcntal projects­such as irrigation, or in ringbarking and clear­ing land to increase its carrying capacity, or harvest from· culth·ation-it would bring in a return that would be commensurate with the expenditure. Under the present system we are merely spending money in order to meet a temporary difficulty created by unem­ployment, and passing the bill on to the future.

Mr. Jesson: The liability has not gone.

~rtrr. llfOORE: That is one of the liabili­ties.

Mr. Jesson: 'I'hat is not worrying you.

3'Ir. 1IOORE: It is one of the things that are worrying me very much. It is a policy of getting over a temporary difficulty by the continuous spending of loan money and plac­ing the burden on future Governments and local authorities who will have their own diffi­culties to contend ;vith long before these liabilities are paid off.

Let us look at the position here of subsidy­loans. Yesterday the Premier was pointing out that Queensland was in a very fortunate position because 53 per cent. of the loan money the Government were spending was returnable to them in repayments by the local authorities and other local 'bodies. Let us look back over a long period of years, and we shall ascertain the reasons. One is that o;ving to the foresight of earlier Govemments the advances of the State Advances Corpora­tion and the Agricultural Bank are returning interest and redemption to the Government.

lUr. Jesson: You are always living in the past.

}'Jr. ~IOORE: No; I am pointing out the re~ Rons for the pre·scnt. \V' c are getting to a different position now.

'l'he Premier: We are getting iRto a better position each year.

~Ir. lUOORE: The Government are getting into a better position by shoving the responsibility for unemployment on the local authorities. The Government are getting into a better position not as a result of their own efforts, but by placing the respemsibility on 1ocal authorities.

The following table of loans and subsidies is interesting:-

Year. I Loans. Subsidies. Total. -----

£ £ £ 1932-33 .. .. 454,004 127,159 581,163 1933-34 .. .. 626,665 339,518 966,183 1934-35 .. .. 678,887 693,305 1,372,192 1935-36 .. ., 704,506 828,759 1,533,265 1936-37 .. .. 712,061 716,561 1,428,622 1937-38 .. .. 508,272 768,633 1,276,905

£3,684,395 3,473,935 I

7,158,330

On the loan part of a subsidy-loan the local authority pays 5 per cent.-on the ordinary loans it pays 4~ per cent.-and on the sub­sidy that is given in order to encourage it to carry out ;vorks-many of them uneconomic­;, nPr cent. was taken out of the Unem­plo}-ment Insurance Fund. So it will be seen the Government are getting a good propor­tion of this 58 per cent. by the system of finding- the loans that go to the local authority on \Yhich they have to pay a higher rate than that on ordinary loans, an d. the interest on the subsidies is charged to the Unemployment Relief Fund; now it would be taken out of the State development tax. It does not mean that Queensland is better off; it means that another section of the community is being called upon to pay instead of the Govern­ment.

.I\Ir. Jesson: What section would that be?

.I\Ir. JUOORE: The whole community. The ratepayers are the community.

The Premier: If people get a sewerage scheme they are under an obligation to pay for the service.

::\Ir. lliOORE: Most decidedly they are. Many a sewerage scheme does not cost the ratepayer any more.

Tl!e I>remier: Sometimes less.

.:Ur • .I\IOORE: Yes. I am pointing out that this system is pushing the burden onto mwthcr section-onto the local authoriticc> and other local goveming bodies in order to get over a temporary difficulty. Anybody kno;;-s as well as I do that on the question of subsidy-loa.ns--

lUr. Walsh: They have been a boon to local authorities.

Mr. JUOORE: I know of many local authorities that do not want them, but the ratepayers haYe to pay State development tax, and the local authorities feel compelled to take subsidy-loans to get their share; other­;,-ise they pay for other works in other shires and get nothing themselves. I know one local authority in 'Queensland that decided that it wo1dd be better to borrow money at 4~ per cent. interest than to accept a subsidy-loan.

)Jr. Walsl1: The subsidy would compen­sate for the interest.

.I\Ir. lUOORE: There are many instances \Yhere it does not compensate, and there is much extravagance on the part of local auth­orities in order that they may get their share.

Supply. [4 OCTOBER.] Supply. 683

The hon. member knows perfectly well that many unnecessary works arc carried out, and that local authorities look round for things to be done.

Jir. Uuggan.: What local authority n;fused to accept a subsidy~

Jlr. ~IOORE: I am not going to mention any names. When we talk about employ­ment expenditure and the expenditure of Loan Funds coming from sources within the State, we have to look at it from every point of view. The burden on the community is not being reduced; it is being increased all the time, and the Government must endeavour to get value for the expenditure of loan money and to see that some return is obtained for it. There are things on which loan money can be spent and returns obtained. I think that the Department of Public Lands has pointed out that loans for developmental work in the country, such as ringbarking, fencing, and the provision of water, have been among the most successful loans in Queensland.

The Premie,r: In many cases there has been too much ringbarking.

;\Ir. MOO RE: That comes to a question of soil erosion. I am referring to the clearing of scrub country for grazing purposes, and that sort of thing. Anyhow, it has yet to be proved that ringbarking affects rainfall.

'rile Premier: Too much does.

}Ir. MOO RE: Too much undoubtedly does, but my present argument is that better returns have been obtained from loans that luwe been made for that purpose than from those for any other purposes.

The Premie,r: There have been better returns from loans for forestry purposes.

}fr. MO ORE: That is problematical, as it depends on the future. We have no evi­dence of it so far. When you find that you have spent £25,000,000 of loan money and that you are getting smaller returns than you did seven years ago, the position should be investi­gated. Otherwise, the Treasurer is going to be placed in the desperate position of finding uncontrolled expenditure increasing each year with insufficient revenue to meet it. Gradu­ally more ancl more will have to be paid from revenue to meet these reductions, 'in returns on loan works and services, leaving less and less for the ordinary departmental expendi­ture of the State. The Treasurer pointed that out in his Budget ancl seemed to be satisfied that there was nothing to be clone. I say that there is something to be clone.

)Ir. Jesson: Do you not give the Govern­ment any praise for anything at all?

Mr. MOO RE: Is it necessary for me to keep patting the Government on the back? The Premier has about 30 hon. members on his sicle who do nothing but pat him on the back, ancl say what a fine fellow he is. Surely, hon. members clo not want that from me~ It is no satisfaction to keep on saying what an excellent Budget this is, ancl ho\Y well we have clone under the circumstances. We transfer £250,000 from loan to revenue

nnd have a surplus of £14,000! The question is: \Yhat should we do to better matters'? Hon. members opposite seem to derive satis­faction from the fact that the increased costs are the result of uncontrollable expenditure, and cannot be helped.

Mr. Duggan: Would not increased pro­dnction and increased population meet that increased cost~

lUr. :JIOORE: It will to some extent, but increased production has to be brought about by positi1·e effort by the Gove·rnment.

lUr. Collins: Increased production has occurred, has it not~

lir. JU.OORE: The hon. member takes one year in which there was an exceptionally good season over the whole of Queensland, and he says that increased production has occurred. Next year there may be a drought.

lifr. Collins: Butter production has inereasecl gradually~

Jrr. JIOORE: Yes.

Mr. Collins: Is not that one of our big items?

}lr. liiOORE: I know that it is, but that cloes not get us out of our difficulty. In spite of all this, we have to take the Treasurer's Budget, and consider it on ·what it says.

liir. Collins: That shows that public money has been spent wisely ancl brought a bont this increased production.

liir. MOO RE: It shows that individual industry and enterprise has brought it about.

1\'Ir. Coll'ins: Encouraged by Government! expenditure.

liir. lliOORE: Not at all. No Govern­ment expenditure encouraged the dairyman to milk more cows.

At 12.33 p.m.,

:'\fr. BRAND (Isis), one of the panel of Temporary Chairmen, •relieved the Chairman in the chair.

:Jir. MO ORE: On page 5 of his Financial Statement the Treasmer complains that exchange and Sinking Fund charges absorbed £1,467,836, or £82,926 more than the expen­diture for the previous financial yenr. The Government have acldecl £15,591,456 to the net clebt of this State in the last seven years.

In o•rcler to illustrate the advnntnges that the Government ha.-e re0eived from the positive action that was taken by all the Governments of All'stralia in 1931, I should like to point out that the amounts pnid for interest, Sinking Fund, nnd exchange in 1932-33 were-

Interest Sinking Funcl Exchange

£ 5,004,626

363,390 1,047,718

£6,415,734

•684 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

In 1938-39 those charges were­

Interest Sinking Fund Exchange

£ 5,153,929

639,756 828,080

£6,621,765 or only £206,031 more than in 1932-33. The action of the Governments at that time by -curtailing expenditme and securing a reduc­tion of interest to a very great extent eased the strain under which Governments were labouring.

The action of the Government. at that time made it possible to reduce interest and .exchange. This Government have added £15,591,456 to the national debt, but, as a result of the advantages received from the _positive action taken by all the Australian GoYernments in 1931, they have only £20,000 more to pay in interest, Sinking Fund con­tributions, and redemption charges to-day.

A Goven1ment lliember: We are still paying the highest interest rates of any of

the Australian States.

)Jr. lUOOR-E: I am not saying anything ;about that. In 1912, when Mr. Denham went fo England, he was succe.ssful in floating a loan for about £10,000,000 at 3 per cent. We :have had the advantage of that loan ever since.

JUr. Jones: Why cannot the people of Australia float a loan to-day at that rate~

Mr. ~'WORE: It depends on the demand for money.

Tl1e Premier: What is your view on the ·continuance of the exchange rate~

]Ur. JUOOR-E: I think the Government gain more from the exchange rate than they lose. Although the Government would pay less in exchange if it was reduced or abolished, the primary producers \Yould receive 25 per cent. less for their exportable products.

The Premier: You justify it on the ground of an export bounty~

::lir. ~IOORE: Yes, I do not know thai: we eau get myay from the exchange rate altogether. If it was left to natural causes,

'it would falL

The Premier: As a matter of fact, if the exchange had not been pegged for a con­sidC'rable perio(1 the £1 sterling and the Aus­·trnlian £1 would have been equaL

:Jir. lliOORE: They would, and they may be equal again soon.

Tl1e Premier: The tendency will be in that direction.

lUr. :Th!OORE: Probably so. I do not see that the exchange rate is a disadvantage to the Government.

The Premier: I was not complaining about it, but making a plain statement of fact, and I was asking your opinion about it.

)fr. lUOORE: The primary producers, or the exporters, receive that extra 25 per cent. con the prices for their goods and that results

in their paying more taxation than they would pay if there were no exchange. Probably the Government. have more to gain in the long run from the 25 per cent. exchange.

JUr. Duggan: If we had given some con­sideration to debt conversion we should have been in a much better position.

1\Ir. 1\lOORE: The other States could not pay more.

The Premier: It is all a question of when the loans fall due.

Mr. ~IOOR-E: It is a question of when they are due and how long they were for. If we had got further American loans we should have been in an infinitely worse posi­tion. Those are factors over which no Loan Council or anybody else has any controL It is unfortunate.

1\Ir. Duggan: Still, the other States got very material benefits.

::\Ir. MOO R-E: Yes, but we get benefits in other ways. Yesterday the Premier said he did not wish to criticise New South Wales, but he thought they had reduced taxation there too quickly without looking to the future and consequently to-day had to increase taxes again. That was the inevitable result, he said, of cutting down their taxation.

The Premier: And increasing expendi­ture.

])lr. ])'WORE: And increasing expendi­ture, and expecting the income to rise owing to the fact that the money had been left in the pockets of the people to extend their businesses. I want hon. members to look at the position as it is revealed in the Common­wealth Year Book. The consolidated revenue of New South \¥ales--

The Premier: The Commonwealth Year Book does not show last year's results.

lUr. ])lOO RE: It shows the trend. In ]933-34 the consolidated revenue in New South \Vales totalled £42,570,127 and in 1938 it was £54,345,715. The amount received from taxation, despite reductions, advanced from £14,198,932 in 1934 to £20,504,582 in 1938. That proved the contention of the Govern­

ment of New South Wales that by reducing taxation you encourage industry to expand.

Their policy in reducing taxation was not wrong. New South \Vales experienced one of the worst droughts in its history.

The Premier: They admit that their policy was wrong.

Mr. MOO RE: I do not believe that they adm'it it at all. Queensland had the benefit of remarkably good seasons throughout, to such an extent that railway revenue increased by £406 000 whereas in New South \Vales it had dedreadcd by £372,000. Victoria had bush fires at the end of last year that devastated the State. This was followed by a serious drought, and then floods. These adverse conditions were responsible for the setbacks in the other States.

~Ir. Duggan: Their income tax assess­ments lnst year would be in respect of the

Supply. [4 OCTOBER.] Supply. 685

income year 193 7-38, and so would not be affecteu by the drought.

1\Ir. :MOO RE: I know i:hat, but I am }lointing out that there was expanuing revenue to a much greater extent than in Queensland, although there had been a reduction in taxa­tion, and that the same would happen here if taxation was reduced. I think everybody admits that a person who has money to invest in industry takes it where he can get the best return.

The Premier: Quote their figure for uncontrollable expenditure in relation to earnings.

l\'Ir. 3IOORE: I have not got it, but it is rrobably nonnal. I do not know.

The Premier: I will give it to you.

lUr. 3IOORE: We know that New South "\Vales has been one of the most extravagantly !borrowing States in the history of the C?m­monwealth. In fact, that was one of the diffi­culties in the way of an agreement at Loan Council meetings.

l\Ir. Collins: That State was held up to us as an example· by hon. members opposite.

Mr. 1\IOORE: I am not talking about ii:s loan expenditure. I have never agreed with its borrowing policy, but I have always agreed with its policy of taxation. If a Govemment find that taxation is interfering with industry, as they must find in this 8tatc, it is not their duty to appoint a royal commission to inquire into th•" matter, but--

lUr. Dugga.u: They are shifting their ·debt on to posterity.

J:Ur. Bedford: Do you admire a Govern­ment for reducing the statutory exemption to £150~

l\'Ir. MOO RE: I admire anybody who tries to meet his obligations.

JUr. Duggan: The public debt of New South \Vales has inereased by almost twiee the amount that it has in Queensland over a ;:ertain period.

Mr. }IOORE: I am not attempting to •combat that stateme11t. I know perfectly well that one of the stumbling blocks in the way of agreement at the Loan Couneil was the extravagance of New South \Vales, and that if the formula had to be invoked to allocate the loan raising to the various States, it really meant that the most extravagant Government was favoured at the expense of the 8tates t~,at,~~d not been so extravagant. I realise

I should also like to point out that accord­ing to the· Commonwealth Year Book the taxa­tion per head in 1931-32 was-

£ s. d.

New South Wales 5 15 9 Victoria 4 5 6 Queensland 5 2 4

South Australia 5 6 8 IVes tern Australia 3 6 5 Tasmania 4 0 2 Average of all States 5 0 2

Queensland was then third on the list with £1 4s. 4d. less than the next highest State, and 13s. 5d. less than Now South Wales, and 2s. 2d. over the average of all the 8tates. But the followtng figures showing taxation per head will be found on page 291 of the Queens­land Year Book:-

£ s. a. New South Wales 7 11 :"5

Victoria 6 5 2 Queensland 8 11 8 South Australia 6 15 4 Western Australia 7 4 9 Tasmania .. 7 4 5

The figures now show that Queensland rose from third place in 1931-32 to the top of the list ,,-ith £1 Os. 3d. higher than the next highest State.

1\Ir. Collins: Brought about by increased prosperity. (Opposition laughter.)

1\Ir. JUOORE: If the hon. member would peruse the· report of the Commonwealth Grants Commission dealing with capacity to pay, he would find that the Queenslander has the lowest capacity to pay of the citizens of all the States of the Com'monwealth, with the exception of one. And the amount he has to pay is more than that in any other State. The capacity to pay is eompletely set out by the Commonwealth Grants Commission's con­siderations. What I want to point ont is from being third on the taxation list Queensland has gone to the top, and is £1 Os. 3d. above the next highest State, and £2 1s. 10d. above the average for all States. I know perfectly well that we do not collect income tax on a per-capita basis, but the figures show the trend of affairs ancl point to the difficulty of the taxpayer.

The hon. member for Cook was talking albout the expenditure of money in Queens­land. The retmn from such expenditure is not commensurate with the expenditure. One of the e·ffects, as the Premier has antieipated more or less by appointing a commission to investigate the matter, is that Queensland after leading the other States in the increase in manufactures 20 years ago, has now gone down to an unenviably low position in comparison with other States. It does not require . a commission to ascertain the reasons. Anyone knows that an investor who invests in business goes not only where the best markets are but also where he can get the best return. Any ordinary sensible man does that.

1\fr_ f'.ollins' A nil where the noDulation is grca test.

1\Ir. l\IOORE: He usually likes to know what his costs and what his freights are likely to be. He looks at what he has to pay. His market is a secom1ary consideration, provided freight costs enable him to use it. Possibly, he also looks at the overhead charges.

The Premier: How do you account for the frrct that queenslancl industries are expanding in a greater ratio than those of any other State?

686 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. MOO RE: I will tell the hon. gentle­man one of the things that are producing that effect in some industries. It is costs, principally freight costs. Freight costs have tended to the establishment here of works for the mamrfacture of such commodities as fibrolite, which is a heavy product. 'Queens­land industries, too, have expanded because of the great increase in the number and out­put of butter factories, cheese factories, elec­tricity works, and sugar works, sawmills, &c. That is especially so in the case of engineering WOl'ks engaged in the manufac­ture of frames for buildings. The cost of freight makes importation prohibitive. Again, sugar mills must be established, like /butter and cheese factOTies, adjacent to where the raw material is produced. No matter ~what the costs were, it would be necessary for those factories to be established there. They are unlike other industries, which are estab­lished where the investor can get the best return and have the least taxation to pay.

Mr. Bedford: He establishes his busi­ness where there is the biggest market, because mass production pays.

Mr. lUOORE: The biggest market does not count for more than one item. Freights might allow a manufacturer to establish him­self in one State and pay freight on his manufactures to another. It has been proved to be possible even to export a few commodi­ties from Brisbane to the Southern States.

One of the biggest factors we have to recog­nise is the value of manufacturing in 'Qu-eens­land. Twenty-five years ago the increase was higher per head than in any other State. Now (,!ucensland is at the bottom of th-e list. Why~ The answer is to be found in the fact that in 1931-32 the value of exports from 'Queensland to other States \Y:lS £11,897,000, whereas in 1936-37 it was £13,629,000. On the other hand, the value of imports from other States in 1931-32 was £15,379,000, whereas in 1936-37 it was £20,541,000. The balance against 'Qucrnsland in this period rose by no less than 7 6 per cent.

The Premier: You have a puzzled mind.

Mr. JUOORE: No, I have not a puzzled mind; I am trying to put facts !before the hon. gentleman and his party to see why we have this uncontrollable expenditure, and to see why the Treasurer says: ''I must sit back, for I cannot do anything.''

The Premier: If your figures are correct on the balance of trade between (~ueensland and other States, Queensland would be bankrupt.

lUr. ~IOORE: No.

The Premier: You quoted figures show­ing that Queensland was losing £7,000,000 a year in seven years. Neither this nor any other State could carry on, if that were so.

Mr. MOO RE: I did not say annually. I said that was the increase, that the imports from other States in seven years had risen from £15,379,000 to £20,541,000.

(Time expired.)

Mr. POWER (Baroona) (12.50 p.m.): This Budget has been prepared in a manner that will allow the State to carry on its business in the usual way.

The Opposition find it extremely difficult to launch any reasonable criticism against the Bu·dget, ~which is couched in unambiguous language, and clearly and concisely sets out what the Government have done during the past 12 months and what they intend to do during the next 12 months. Every endea­vour vvill be made to carry on as usual, but we do not know what the future will bring forth; it is within the realms of possibility that we may have to adapt ourselves to altered circumstances. However, I feel con­fident that even though unforseen circum­stances occur and difficult problems have to be solver1, the Government will overcome them.

The speeches of Opposition members on the Bu·dget consisted of the usual dismal wail we hear from the benches opposite, with a total absence of constructive criticism. The Leader of the Opposition gave no credit to the Government for the improved conditions in the State, but attributed them to the seasons. If conditions were the reverse of what they are, however, the Opposition would, no doubt, lay the blame on the Government.

During a period such as this when we are engaged in a war it is the duty of the Government so to frame their Budget as to find employment for those who are unem­ployed and cany out the slogan of '' Busi­ness as usual,'' as the Prime J:\Iinister advised us to do. I trust that no attempt will be made to curtail the amount of loan money that the State will require to carry out the policy set out in the Budget. It is not' much use the Prime Minister's advising us to carry on as usual unless funds are made available to enable ns to do so It is clearly the duty of the Commonwealth Government and the Loan Council to provide a reason­able amount of loan money to enable the Government and private industries to meet conditions as they have been altered as a result of the war.

At 12.53 p.m.,

Mr. KING (Maree), one of the panel of Temporary Chairmen, reliev-ed Mr. Brand in the chair.

lUr. POWER: One important matter that merits serious consideration is the question of making money available for local authori­ties, particularly the Brisbane City Council, to carry out their works programmes. It is regrettable that a number of men employed by the council have lost their employment through circumstances over which that authority has no control. It is also very depressing to hear members of the Opposi­tion-! refer particularly to the hon. mem­ber for Cunningham-stating that the reason why the council could not obtain loan money was that the Commonwealth B.ank and other financial institutions had no con­fidence in it. I take this opportunity of repudiating that statement. That is not

Supply. [4 OCTOBER.] Supply. 687

the reason why the council has not been able to obtain money. The position is that financial institutions do not know what the reqU:irements of the Loan Council may be and they are waiting to learn, and at the same time waiting to see if the interest rate ·will be any better.

A few moments ago the Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that money was not being wisely expended by the Brisbane City Council, an•l that value was not being given to the ratepayers of Brisbane for the expen­diture.

The rates levied by the Brisbane City Council to-day are lower than they were when the council was controlled by men of the same political colour as the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, and, in addition, great improvements have been carried out >Yithin the city of Brisbane and a greater 1mmber of men are employed than during the time of the Greene-Dart administration, despite the fact that many hundreds of men have been given notices of dismissal.

It may be interesting to give the employ­ment figures, both for the benefit of the general public and in justification of the expenditure of large sums of money by the Brisbane City Cou·ncil. Dming 1934, when the administration was controlled by Lord :Mayor Greene, there were 3,170 permanent employees on the City Fund. To-day, under Labour administration, 4,517 men are .employed, an increase of 1,347. On the Loan }'und, 766 men were employed in 1934 and to-day 868 men, despite the fact that a num­ber have recently been put off. This figure represents an increase of 102, and the total figures show. that 1,449 more men are employe•l by the Brisbane City Council to-day than under the Greene administration.

Further, although the council has been criticised for not controlling its expenditure, I am very pleased to know that it has not yet curtailed expenditure along the lines that >vere adopted during the time of the Greene administration. I am also glad to know that loan moneys made available by this Govern­ment do not contain the provisions that were attached to them when the Moore Govemment were in control of the State. During the lifetime of the Moore Government certain loan moneys were made available to the Bris· bane City Council, and the conditions of employment were that the men engaged on necessary loan works, such as sewerage work­ers and men building storm-water drains, were to be paid a wage of £3 a week, and they were allowed a period of employment of only 12 weeks. Any moneys that are made avail­able to-day by this Government in the form of subsidies are subject to the condition that award rates of pay shall apply, although it is not necessary to stipulate that condition when it is a Labour council with which we me dealing.

During the time of the previous anti-Labour administration employees were rationed one >Yoek in five and suffered a reduction of 10 per cent. in wages. The Brisbane City Coun-

cil has done excellent work for the peoplE' within the city of Brisbane.

An Opposition Member: It is in a hope­less position to-day.

Mr. POWER: Through no fault of its own. Attempts have been made from time to time by hon. members of the Opposition to do everything possible to prevent the Labour administration at the City Hall from obtain­ing loan money to carry out developmental works in this city and in other places. Many years ago when Mr. Theodore was trying to obtain loan money for this State, a delegation ,,-as sent to London in a successful endeavour to prevent the then Government from obtain­ing loan money that they were desirous of using in the interests of the people of this State. That endeavour \Yas successful.

At 2:.15 p.m.,

The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair.

lUr. l'OWER: That delegation failed because the money was obtained from another country. Such things go to show, however, to what lengths the Opposition are prepared to go in their attempts to damage the State, irre­spective of what party may be in power. 'l'o-day they are shedding crocodile tears over the fact that the Brisbane City Council has been forced to dispense with the services of a number of its employees. It i8 remarkable that under the Greene administration of the ciYic affairs of Brisbane-at that time the J\Ioore Government were in powe1· in this Sta tc-517 men were employed on rotational works by the Brisbane Glty Council at a wage of £3 a week. It is also interesting to note that the Moore Government made available to the Brisbane City Council a certain sum of money for the relief of unemployment :md that it wac; found, when Labour gained con­trol of the city in 1934, that £246,000 was unexpended. Yet not one word of protest was uttered by the members of the then Govern­ment, some of whom are now sitting in opposition. K o attempt was made by them to speed up the works of the Brisbane City Council in order to relieve unemployment.

EYerybody knows that if money is not expended in the year for which it is budgeted for, pennission must be obtained before it can be expended at a later date. 'l'hanks to the efforts of the Acting-Premier, the present Secretary for Public Lands, the Labour Bris­bane City Council was given penni~sion to spend this £246,000, and, as a result, 1,100 men 'vere placed in full-time employment. Yet, hon. members opposite are prepared to criticise the Brisbane City Council for now rcl1ucing the number of men in its employ­ment w-hich it is compelled to do through 110 fault' of its own. No credit is gi.ven to it for the excellent work it has done since i.t has been controlled by the Labour Party. One neel1 only look 'lt the health services of this city to realise what it has dcne in the interests of our citizens. J\'l:iles of sewers and storm­water drains have been constructed, the dust nuisance has been abated by the construction of bitumen roads, and our health has been further safeguarded by the construction of

688 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

1oncrete footpaths and water channels. 'ro-day, when that body is unable to obtain finance, because of circumstances over which it has no control, no support is given to it.

The Opposition gloat over that fact, because they think the people of Brisbane will be given an opportunity of defeating the men at present controlling the council. The position was really the same immediately prior to the holding of the Kurilpa by-elec­tion, and on that occasion the people of that electorate affhmed thei·r confidence in the present Labour administration. They did not favour handing over the control of a very big undertaking to the anti-Labour forces, >Yho, >Yhen they held the reins of government for a lengthy period, brought the affai:rs of the city of Brisbane into a bad state.

I am pleased with the Budget, particularly because it is proposed to proceed with a vigorous works policy, which is in the interests of the people. It is proposed to spend £4,384,000, a considerable sum more than was expended last year, to relieve unemployment. Although I raise no objec­tion to the ·raising of money for war pur­poses-any man worth his salt should be prepared to shoulder his share of the respon­sibility in the interests of the British Empire and the British commonwealth of nations­I believe that one of the best lines of defence is a contented people. If the people of Aus­tralia are in employment, they will be pre­pared to defend Australia, the country that giYes them their livelihood. If men a•re unem­ployed, and living under poor conditions, they >Yill not take an interest in public affairs. Finance should be made available to the local authorities and to the Govern­ment to continue a vigorous works policy, so as to give the people that decent standard of living which every citizen is entitled to enjoy.

Criticism has been levelled at the Govern­ment by the Opposition because they haYe not made further reductions in taxation. I remind hon. members opposite that there have been reductions in taxation, particularly in relief taxation. A statement was made by the Deputy r~eader of the Opposition, >Yith reference to a table showing what relief has been given. I propose to quote that table. During last year relief was afforded in many ways to sections of industry, and the people of Queensland generally, the amounts total­ling £;)17,383. The Railway Departi11ent granted rebates and reductions in freight on wool and starving stock and fodder amounting to £312,030. The Department of Public Lands granted concessions totalling £270, while the reduction in the price of lo.g timber amounted to £22,978.

The leader of the United Australia Party criticised the Government, and said that the people of Queensland were not receiving any benefit as a result of the reduction in royalty and the other concessions that have been given; the benefit was derived by purchasers outside the State. I would point out that any person engaged in an industry makes a reduction in charges for the purpose of

obtaining further business. As a result of the reduction in royalties, those engaged in the timber industry benefited considerably, because they were able to dispose of more timber.

\Ve also find from that table that the reduction of interest on loans to borrowers from the State Advances Corporation for workers' dwellings and workers' homes totalled £42,511. The Agricultural Bank gave concessions amounting to £21,545, "\l'hile local autho•rities benefited to the extent of £114,000. I suppose this has resulted in the necessity for increasing rates in some instances. 'l'he concession to other borrowers amounted to £4,049. So that, in addition to a reduction in direct taxation, the concessions by the present Government amount to £517,383.

The Government have been criticised by the Opposition for transfel'ring money from trust funds to consolidated revenue, but even a very casual examination of past fi,gures will reveal that the practice was initiated by the Moore Government, and that they raided every trust fund that they could in an endeavour to meet the exigencies of the finan­cial situation under their 'regime. We have been criticised 011 numerous occasions for having transferred money from the Main Roads Fund to consolidated revenue, but this practice can be justified. Although £250,000 has been transferred annually, the Govern­ment have made available a sum of £505,818 for road const•ruction in addition to the amount required to meet the ordinary pro­gramme of the Main Roads Commission. It is not so long ago that the hon. member for Cunningham complained that the Government were spending too much money in the cities, thereby causing a drift of population from the country to the cities and towns, but he also complains now when men are sent to the count-ry to carry out road-construction and forestry work. He complained because the people were given work in the cities, and he also complains because they are sent to the country to do it. \Vhat does the hon. member really want~ He does not know him­Relf. His only purpose is to criticise the Government for everything that they do, without offering a constructive sug,gestion for the betterment of the country.

The Premier: All that he is concerned about is the destruction of the Labour Government.

:ur. POWER: In reply to an interjection the Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that the policy pursued by his Government was in conformity with a plan approved at a Premiers' Conference attended by Mr. Scullin, the then Labour Prime Minister, but he failed to point out that the difficulties confronting the then Prime Minister were created by previous Federal anti-Labour Governments, and that, at the time, Australia had an adverse trade balance instead of a favourable trade balance. He failed to men­tion that, as a result, the financial position of Australia at that time ·was very precari­ous. He did not mention that, when he attended the Premiers' Conference as Premier

Supply. [4 OCTOBER.] Supply. 689

of this State, he was content to sit and listen to what was said by the other representatives without offering a constructive suggestion to solve the problems of the day, and that, if the Labour Government had not been returned to power in 1932, and the present Premier given the opportunity to initiate a new scheme at the Premiers' Conference for the benefit of the State and the Common­wealth, we should still perhaps be in the same deplorable position as we were in under the Moore regime, when the then Premier, Micawber-like, waited for some­thing to turn up instead of taking bold measures for the improvement of conditions in the country.

Every right-thinking person will admit that, during a time of depression, Governments should take the lead in reviving industry, as was done by the present Premier when he attended his first Premiers' Conference as representative of this State. He initiated a new policy, and the whole complexion of the financial problem >vas changed. Money was made available to the various Govern­ments of the States for a vigorous woTks programme, and that m1s appreciated by the people of Queensland to such an extent that they have always returned a majority of Labour hon. members to this Chamber. Queensland endorsed the action of our Premier, and ever since has reco·rded a vote of confidence in the Government for their splendid work, and to-day the financial posi­tion of Queensland is better than that of a}lY other State of the Commonwealth. The people of Queensland appreciate what the Government are doing.

I am not at all satisfied with the Common­wealth Government's defence policy. I have no desire to embarrass the Federal Government by touching to any considerable extent on

·defence matters, but they have not made up their minds as to what they intend to do. As a matter of fact, they cannot make up their minds at present as to the wages they are going to pay the soldiers going into camp. If they cannot make up their minds on such an important matter, then they are not fit, nor should they be allowed. to formulate a policy on questions of such great import as the defence of Australia. Queensland has received but scant consideration from the Commonwealth Government in woTks of a defence character. The allocation of the number of soldiers to be enlisted in the State in the expeditionary force is very small. It is time the whole position was reviewed in the light of the serious position in which the British commonwealth of nations finds itself. It is no use waiting until the inevitable happens before taking action.

I couH speak at length l<·pon these matters, particularly on the lack of consideration of Queensland in defence works. That respon­sibility has been thrust by the national Government on to the shoulders of the State Government. vVe are being called upon to expend very largo sums of money on defence works that should be unc1eTtaken by the national Parliament. An analysis of the posi­tion reveals that the Commonwealth Govern­ment receive more revenue from Queensland

than we as a State Government do, yet we have to maintain all essential social services as well as shoulder the additional burden of defence works. The position is serious and calls for review. The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs is doing excellent work in those matters that have been placed under his care, but the time is ripe for a general overhaul of the position. The people of Australia should know the true position in relation to those works the Federal Govern­ment should be and are not undertaking.

In conclusion, I hope that when the posi­tion is finally analysed and when the finances of Australia are being considered-although we are lJrepared to spend and are spending as much as we can in shouldering our burden of defence-and when money is being made available for the prosecution of war and the destruction of human life, that consideration will be given to the making of money avail­able for the preservation of human life and the employment of men in healthy work which is Queensland's best line of defence.

Mr. GAIR (South Brisbane) (2.33 p.m.): The Treasurer is to be congratulated on the excellent state of the finances of this State, as revealed in the :B'inancial Statement ten· <1ered .by him on Thursday last. It reviews the accounts of this State with clarity and discusses the prospects for the current year with sound judgment and in a way that will give satisfaction to the workers as well as the taxpayers. It reveals the State's healthy financial position, which compares more than favourably with that of any other State. It further indicates that the finances of Queens­land have been very carefully managed and that value has been obtained for money expended on governmental >Yorks. In addition, it is pleasing to note that the conditions of the workers have considerably improved. At the same time, considerable concessions have been granted to -other sections of the community.

I believe the outstanding factor of the Budget is the surplus reported for the last financial year. It was as far back as 1927-28 that the State Budget was last balanced, and it is gratifying to know that that result was achieved again last year. Taking into account the fact that estimated deficit for last year was £215,774 the smplus of £14,046 indicates an improvement of approximately £230,000.

lUr. Macdonald: At whose expense?

lUr. GAIR: I was about to say that this surplus has not been obtained at the expense of the workers. Economising at the expense of the workers was the policy pursued by hon. members opposite when they were in power. We know that during the period the Opposition were in power they could not balance the Budget although they reduced wages and even reduced the allowance paid to the State children. They adopted a policy of curtailment that minimised their chances of balancing the Budget.

However, the Financial Statement that has just been presented indicates that much has been achieved during the past 12 months and that the Government intend to pursue a policy

690 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

of progress. 'l'he gradual improvement in the economic position of Queensland is largely due to the foresight and eapaeity of the Government. This improvement is not a figment of the imagination, but can be demon­strated by indisputable facts and figures. It is a matter for congratulation that the Government have pursued a wise and energetic policy for the good of the whole of the people. Their unfiagging devotion to the task of government is visible in many directions. ~When one recollects the financial position of the State when Labour assumed office in 1932, one can fully appreciate the fact that the financial position has considerably improved under Labour administration notwithstand­ing the heavy legacy of debt left to them by the previous administration.

The Leader of the Government that held office between 1929 and 1932 very pessi­mistically, but nevertheless candidly, stated prior to the 1932 election that the State \Yas on the verge of bankruptcy. Fortunately, the people of Queensland rescued this State from the verge of bankruptcy in 1932 and entrusted the affairs of Queensland to a Government who have followed a safe and sound policy that has had the effect of improving conditions to such an extent that instead of a deficit of over £2,000,000-the amount shown in 1932-we have shown a surplus.

One very interesting table in the Financial Statement is that which gives the details of the monetary value uf concessions in the nature of remissions of Crown revenue and charges granted by the Government. It shows that for the seven years the amount was £3,223,640.

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition endeavoured to wave that striking figure aside this morning by saying that those concessions were provided for by the Premiers' Plan. That is not so. While his statement may apply to one or two insta~ces it cannot be applied to such a conce~swn . as £~,602,810 for rebate of and reducbons m freights on wool, starving stock and fodder, store stock, lead ores, flour, bran, and pollard to northern ports and similar things. Nor can it be appli~d to the concessions of the Department of Public Lands, and if he was referring to the reduction of interest to the clients of the State Advances Corporation on workers' dwellings, he is again wrong, because the Govemment are to-day paying £4 16s. 2d. per cent. for the money that they are lending at 4 per cent. That disposes of his argument in connection with these concessions. How­ever, I am pleased to note that such con­cessions are being made and are being enjoyed by all sections of the community.

With regard to the allowance for rebates of and reductions in freights on wool and ths carriage of fodder for starving stock, the sum of £23,925 had to be expended in excess of the estimated cost. If that had not been required the financial position of the State would have been considerably better than it is to-day. However, Governments have no control over weather conditions and other matters that make those items of expenditure necessary, but it is at least to be noted that

Governments come to the aid of the primary producer and the pastoralist and other people who meet with difficulties.

I \Yonder if those people who are for ever criticising our Railway Department and this Government would expect similar treatment from private enterprise~ vYould they expect motor transport to carry their stock at a rebate or would they expect motor transport to carry fodder for starving stock, as is done by the Railway Department9 The people who benefit by this concession should remem­ber the service that is rendered by the Rail­way Department in difficult times, when better times arrive and when many of them are giving their custom to motor transport.

Another very interesting feature of the Financial Statement is that with regard to the railways appearing on page 17. We hear a great deal of criticism from time to time of the administration and control of the rail­ways and the service rendered bv the employees. "\Ve know that tmnsport is "a very important phase in the national life of an.:," country; we are aware that even the exist­ence of man and the wealth of the country is dependent upon an efficient transport system. With my knowledge of the (~ueens­land railways, it is my belief that the many thousands of men employed in the railway service of Queensland are giving excellent service to the community.

1\'Ir. Yeates: Hear, hear!

:Jlir. GAIR: It is gratifying to have the appro,~al of the hon. member for East Too­woomta, especially as I was of the opmwn that he was a carping critic of our railway administration. I am glad to know that he agrees with me that the majority of the railway employees are giYing a good return for the wages they receive.

On page 17 of his Financial Statement, the Treasurer discloses that since 1914-15 fares haYe increased by only 28 per cent., freights on merchandise by 33 per cent., and on minerals by 45 per cent., although wages have increased by 120 per cent., and the prices of coal and stores by 80 per cent. These figures constitute a complete answer to the critics of our railway service. They prove con­clusively that the Queensland railways are giving good service for a fair and Teasonable charge, that although overhead costs have risen by an enormous amount fares and freights have been increased by very little. When we consider that Queenslan1 is an extensive State, that its population is com­paratively sm'all, ancl that i'ts mileage of rail­way lines is far greater than that of any of the other States, which are more compact and which have a much greater population, we begin to realise what excellent service is being rendered by the Queensland railways. In fact, the Queensland railway system compares more than favourably with that of any other State in the Commonwealth. If conditions here were similar to those of Victoria and New South "\Vales, our sys'tem would be in a much better position than it is to-day. In Queensland we have 6,500 miles of railways compared with 6,000 miles in New t:louth

Supply. [4 OcTOBER.] Supply. 691

.. Wales anu 4,000 in Yictoria, which i::ltates ha\ e the advantage of much greater popula­tions.

lUr. Dart: Revenue is much better in Victoria.

Mr. GAIR: Of course it is. They have a greater population. That is my point. If the same conditions existed in Queensland as in the other States, the position of the Queens­land railwavs wouJcl be infinitely better than it is to-day, but, despite its hand~caps, it compares more than favourably w1th that of any other State in AustTalia.

Another pleasing fact to be learned from the :E'inancial Statement is that for the last financial vear £331 914 was expended in the erection of worker~' d\vellings. This is an excellent work, and, in my opinion, could be extended considerably. It is a grave pity that GoYernments cannot get unlimited amounts of money for this work. Although the Government are doing excellent work in this direction, much more could be done if money was available. The State is unable to aceommodate all applicants for finance to erect workers' dwellings. It is pleasing to know that the prospective husband, the father of to-morrow, prefers to erect his own home to living in a fiat. 'fhis phase of the social life of the community should be given the ntmost consir1eration by any Govermuent.

I am particularly interested in the pro b­lem of home-building, because in Brisbane there is a distinct shrortage of housing. I think that also applies to the other principal towns of the State. If we were able to obtain the necessary money we should eliminate as far as possible the slum areas that exist in Brisbane. 'rhe same position exists to a greater extent in other capitals of the Commonwealth. Fortunately, in Bris­bane we have not the slum areas of Sydney and Melbourne, and other capital cities of the Commonwealth, but, neYertheless, there are numbers of dwellings here that shou!Cl be demolished. If the Government were in a position to obtain the necessary money to carry out a more extensive workers' dwelling scheinc or to elaborate on the present scheme, which has been very efficiently canied out, >ve should be able to build a better State anr1 opportunities could be afforr1ed to young married couples t,o provide homes for them­selves and, at a later date, for their children.

I appreciate what The Government's policy has meant to the unemployed of Queensland. A reference to the number of contributors to the Unemployment Insurance Fund will .disclose that there has been a very marked mcreas.e in employment in Queensland; 56,000 cm:tn­butors have been added to that fu:1d smce 1932. That is evidence of a great Improve­ment but I recognise that much remains t~ be d~ne. We have in this State an army ?£ unemployed-fortunately, it is much less 111

number than those of the other States-and I rlesire to assist those unfortunate people >yho, through no fault of their own, are depnved of their natmal right to obtain work that would enable them to support their wives and families.

I was interested in a statement submitted to the House on the Address in Reply by the Secretary for Labour and Industry that disclosed the result of an investigation he had conducted into the condition of recipients of rations. That statement indicated that only 56.4 per cent. of the recipients were fit for \York, while 13.7 per cent. were fit for light work only, and _7.7 per cent: were u~~t for work at all. While I recogmse the diffi­culty of obtaining suitable work foi: those of the unemployed who are able t? do hght :V?rk only, I also appreciate the difficult position of the unfOTtunate 7. 7 per cent. who are unable to work at all. Those people are the c arc of some Government and if it is not the responsibility of this Government to see that thev and their wives and children are adequately provided for, then it is the respon­sibility of a Government with greater powers than "that of a State Government. If the Federal Government do not recognise the claims of those people for invalid pensions and other form of assistance, they should at least recognise the claims of the~r wives and children to a better form of existence than they enjoy at present. The State Govern­ment are doing all that they possibly can for the people "'r:.1 rations are only a form of relief. Tlw important task of caring for the needy in our midst is a national one and the responsibility should devolYe very l~rgely on the national Government of Australia. How­ever, I feel sure that those who are unfor­tunate enough to be unemployed and are physically fit to work will get it in pursuance of the policy of the Government.

It is pleasing to note that the Budget does not provide for a restriction of the loan works programme and that the GO\'ernment intend to continue their policy of providing work for the people. I sincerely hope that all the t\tates of Australia will Tesist any attempt hv the :Fetleral Gonrnm'ent to restrict the f{rnds Tequired for this purpose. If a sum n t £:350,000,UOO coul(l be created out of noth­ing by the late Sir Dcnison Miller, one­time <:owmor of the Commonwealth Bank of Australia, for the Great \Yar of 1914-lS, there is no reason "Why the Government at Canberra cannot use the resources of the Commomvealth Bank ancl the credit of the Commonwealth to create employment for the people of Australia. That is being done to some extent at the present time for defence requirements, and I believe that if it can be clone in a time of emergency for defence purposes, there is no reason why it cannot be rlone in a time of peace or at the present time for the purpose of providing work in carrying out an important developmental pro­gramme, thereby enabling the workers to obtain employment and maintain their wives ancl families on a decent standard of Jiving.

Government }I embers: Hear, hear!

Jir. GAIR: During a discussion on the Financial Statement we generally hear with monotonous regularity a clamour from hon. members opposite for a reduction in taxation. On this occasion they are disappointed, because no increase in taxation is forecast, and they complain because there is no intimation of a

692 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

reduction. During the past tew months Governments in the other States have pre­sented their Budgets, and in almost every case provision has lbeen made for increased taxation, but no such provision was made in the Budget presented to this Chamber last week. As I have said, hon. members opposite complain that there is no indication that the Government will reduce taxation, but that complaint was adequately dealt with by the Prenl'icr yesterday when he pointed out that in addition to a reduction in the State development tax by 2d. in the £1 the exemp­tions in income tax had been ine1·eased and further reductions in taxation thereby con­ferred on a greater number of people.

It is very interesting, indeed, to read the independent opinions expressed on the Budget. I propose to quote those of the '• Courier­Mail'' and the ''Telegraph,'' journals that cannot be regarded as the friends of the Government.

I say this much for them-that they would be intelligent and impartial critics on impor­tant national questions such as the Budget. The ''Telegraph' of Thursday last in its leading article states-

'' The taxpayers may look upon the Budget with a good deal of satisfaction.''

That is in accordance with fact. It is a sound statement. It is quite contrary to the statements emanating from the carping cr'tills on the Opposition benches.

On Friday last the ''Courier-Mail,'' in tl•e course of a leading article headed "dound Budget,'' stated-

'' A reduction of taxation could not be expected during a state of war and it·s uncertainties.''

It goes on to say-

'' The State must make provrswn for relieving unemployment created by the transition from peace-time economy to war­time economy. The Government must main­tain employment and production, and any reduction in expenditure >vould affect the position.''

Those two extracts from leading articles in the city's two important journals faithfully and clearly reflect public opinion on the Budget.

I would, too, in all sincerity commend to private enterprise and the business community generally the views expressed by the National Bank of Australasia Limited in its monthly publication dated 11 September. We have been urged by the Prime Minister to keep our chins up and carry on business as usual. It is the right thing to do. I commend those sentiments to private enterprise and the busi­ness world generally; that is what this Government are doing in their Budget. The National Bank of Australasia in its circular exhorts us-

'' ... to think calmly and to avoid actions which will in any way contribute to a decline of trade and consequent unemploy­ment. Our attitude should be the reverse,

as there is much to encourage us to go forward in a determination to keep the wheels of industry turning.''

I hope these words will be heeded by the busi­ness community.

JUr. Dart: And the Government.

JUr. GAIR: The Government are doing their part and doing it well. There is no fear on that score. Already I have reason to fear from information I possess that many business people have had an attack of the jitters and have served notices of dismissal on many hands. Such action will not prove to be in the best interests of Queensland or of indus­try or business of any kind. Therefore, I recommend to them a perusal of the exhorta­tions of that publication.

There has been only one disappointing phase of the Budget, that is, from the point of view of the Opposition-they have no basis for criticism. Until I heard the Deputy Leader of the Opposition I was really sin­cerely sympathetic for the party opposite. The attempted attack or criticism of the Budget by the Leader of the Opposition on Tuesday was, to say the least of it, pathetic. More­over, he had very few supporters. But for­tunately for the Opposition, the hon. member for Aubigny this morning endeavoured to inspire them with a little fight and inject a little spa.rkle into the debate, but even he, with his knowledge and experi<.mce as an ex-Pre­mier, lamentably failed in his criticism of a sound Budget.

There are a few other matters that I desire to refer to. Chief of these is the pre­sent international position. Unfortunately, rapid developments of enormous consequence to all mankind have taken place during the past few ~weeks in the domain of international polities. War has been declared, and the question uppermost in people's minds is: "How long is this war going to last~" For some time, statesmen and people everywhere have believed in the inevitability of war, and nations have made their plans accordingly. Every country has feverishly engaged. in building up its armaments; money that wl!c$ badly needed for social reform and the abolition of the worst forms of poverty is being squandered in creating guns, bombs, flying ships, and aeroplanes. The outlook is gr:we, and it is our duty to do all in our po>ver to espouse the ideal of world-wide peace based on reason, equity, and justice. It is sad to think that while millions of people in all the countries in the wor Id are in need of employment and the necessaries of life, millions and millions of pounds which could be profitably employed in the work of development anrl construction, which would give to all the right to lead a decent, happy existence, are being expended in war.

War has benefited nobody. As the late Field Marshal Sir William Robertson often said-

"War hurts everybody, benefits nobody, except the profiteers, and settles nothing.''

I think that belief is shared by all sane p2ople. It is a matter for grave regret that

Supply. [4 OcTOBER.] Supply. 693

this conflagration has started in Europe to-day. Before it is finished, it may involve many more countries.

I wish to commend the Federal Government for the Yery prompt action they have taken in connection with profiteering. I think it was very timely for the Commonwealth in co-oper~;~tion with the State Governments: to take this very necessary action. They, no doubt, benefited by the experience gained dur_ing the l:;tst war. _I sincerely hope that the:r regulat.Ions !lnd mstructions regarding antl-pr?fiteermg Will not amount to mere pious resolutions, but that every endeavour will be made by the Commonwealth and the States to see that they are rigidly enforced.

I have reason to believe that profiteering has already taken place in business in Bris­b::ne. I hope that the public will co-operate Wit~ the Governments and bring under their notice a1_1y cases of profiteering, so that suit­able achon may be taken against the guilty parties.

Reference was made this morning to the profiteering that has been indulged in by the shipping companies. That is a case in which the Commonwealth Government should take suitable action. There is no reason for an increase of 20 per cent. on freights by the Commonwealth shipping companies. I hope that the Commonwealth Government will not permit the shipping companies to get away with this increase, which is unquestionably a form of profiteering, and represents an a'lvantage that they are taking as a result of the state of emergency that. exists.

Another important phase of the war that I hope the Federal Government will watch very closely is the cost of armaments. We have had experience of the profitcering that took place in England and in other countries during th·e last war, and as the armament manufacturing industTy in Australia is in the hands of private compan-ies it behoves the Federal Government to exercise a very close scrutiny of the matter. For the companies that control the Australian armament industry, war and preparations for war mean dividends, which ultimately come from the lives of the men who fight.· These companies are expanding their interests in the manufac­ture of armaments in Australia in the same way as the huge armament concerns are doing in other countries of the world­Vickers Armstrong and Imperial Chemical Industries Limited in England Comite de .~orges. in France, Krupps in Germany, and >:;koda m Central Europe, all of which are a menace to international peace and well· being.

In Australia our armament industries, the sine·ws of our own national defence, are in private hands and, what is most significant, they are in the hands uf the same few men. 'Several companies are registered in Australia that are connected with the manufacture of war materials for supply to the Australian Government. For instance, Broken Hill Proprietary Limited, Broken Hill South, Western New South Wales Electric Power Limited, Electrolytic Zinc Limited, and the

Zinc Corporation are manufacturinoo arma­ments in Australia at the present tii~e.

1\Ir. 1\Iaher: Do you advocate our being like the A byssinians ~

lUr. GAIR: I am advocating Government control and manufacture of armaments and I will not be misrepresented. I am n~t so insane as to subscribe to the policy advo­eated by the Leader of the Opposition-no defence for Australia.

1\Ir. 1\IARER: I rise to a point: of order. I understood the hon. member for South Brisbane to say that I advocated a policy of no defence for Australia.

JUr. GAIR: That was a statement made in an interjection.

1\Ir. JUARER: I made no such advocacy. It is absurd and ridiculous and I ask for a withdrawal.

1\Ir. GAIR: I withdraw. While I was speaking on the question of armaments the I:eader of the Opposition, by way of interjec­tion, suggested that I was advocating a policy of no defence for Australia. My advocacy is that the Government of Australia should con­trol the manufacture of armaments. If that con_tr~l is in the hands of private enterprise, a~ .It IS to-day, there should be a rigid super­VISIOn and the Government should see that no unfair profit is made from the manufacturing o_f these instruments of war, which arc essen­tial to the defence of Australia.

The existence of these companies is not the most remarkable thing of the situation. By far the most interesting feature is the fact that if you examine the directorates of these companies you will find the names of men appearing on the board of directors of practically every major company in the Com­monwealth. Such a connection exists between the companies that I have mentioned and the companies whose names I shall now give ~·ou: A.C.F. and Shirleys Fertilisers Limited, Imperial Chemical Industries of Australia Limited, Elder Smith Limited, Caledonian Collieries, vVallaroo Mount Lyell Fertilisers, Howanl Smiths Limited, which in turn has large interests in the Australian Steamships Proprietary Limited, Invincible Coll'ierie,s, Colonial Sugar Refinery Company Limited, Vickers Commonwealth Sheet Products Limited, Brisbane Wharves Proprietary Limited, Australian Iron and Steel, and South Portland Cement. Even this is not the limit of their activities. The same connection exists between the directorate of the first companies and the National Bank of Australasia, the English, Scottish and Australian Bank, and the Commercial Bank of Australia. The whole principle is false.

:Jir. Edwards: What would you do with it'

. :!\Ir. GAIR: If the hon. member would hsten he would know what I should do if I had cont_rol of the matter. The new princi­ple for _which Labour stands, certainly the one for which I stand, and for which I believe the people of Australia stand, is rigid Govern­mental monopoly of arms manufacture. To

694 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

the private monopolist war means dividends, to the worker it means death, and to the worker's children it means starvation.

Have hon. members forgotten the findings of the committee that was set up by the League uf Nations to investigate the manufacture of armaments~ For their information, I quote them-

'' That armament firms have-

'' 1. Been active in fomenting war scares, and in persuading their own countries to adopt war-like policies.

'' 2. Attempted to bribe Government officials both at home and abroad.

'' 3. Disseminated false reports concern­ing the military and naval programmes of various countries in order to stimulate armament expenditure.

'' 4. Sought to influence public opinion through the control of newspapers in their own and foreign countries.

'' 5. Organised international armament rings through which the armament race has been accentuated by playing off one country against another.

'' 6. Organised armament trusts by which they have increased the price of armaments to governments.''

If we were able to examine the position with respect to the Government's initial loan programme, under which it proposes to raise a loan of £10,300,000, we should probably find that from £500,000 to £1,000,000 would repre­sent profits to be derived by persons inter­ested in the manufacture of armaments.

Another expression of opinion in connec­tion with armaments and profiteering that goes on in their manufacture is given by Lord Grey, who attributed the conflagration of 1914 ,-ery largely to the competition in armaments.

Sir Philip Gibbs, in his latest book, ''Ordeal in Englan i!,'' expos~ 1he ramifications of the armament ring to su.ch purpose that his book has been banned and withdrawn from circu­lation. He was a member of the commission that was set up by the British Government to inquire into the private manufacture of armaments and trading in weapons of war. The commission was also empowered to decide 'vhether it was possible or desirable to substi­tute State monopoly in Great Britain. It found that the findings of the committee that was set up by the League of Nations were substantially correct, and a drastic change in the s~·stem was recommended. But nothing '"'.,"3"1 done. The arn1a1nent ring ~Yas too po;ver-~ ful.

Have the Australian or British Government ever attempted to control the private manufac­ture of armaments and to take the profits out of the promotion of war~ I say empha­tically that they have not, and until they do the peace of the world will be for ever dis­turbed. I hope that in their desire to prevent profiteerh1g during this time of emergency the Federal Government will not overlook this Yery important work of the manufacture of arms, anr1 th~t they will pay great attention to the possibility of profiteering in it. I have

already dealt with shipping freights. I believe that the position should be dealt with by the Commonwealth Government immediately.

Dealing with war problems, the question asked by the average Australian is: "Where is the money coming from to carry out th€ defence of Australia~'' That thought occurs to the workers and the married men with wives and families who have bHen living from day to day on a bare su-bsistence level, who have gone through the depression and have been unemployed or unable to find regular employment to enable them to support their wives ami families. They ask why the money is not availalble in times of peace for constn1ction and developmental purposes, when it would have the effect of creating 'vork for those Australians who are unable to find eniployment of any kind. I say that if money can be provided for war purposes, as in the last war, no explanation can be offered why it should not be provided in times of pence for the creation of employment for the people. I believe that the first line of defence for a country is the contentment of its people. Give them something to fight for,. and you will have a ready response for the defence of any country. I believe that if we are going to defend Australia adequately we must first of all allow the people to enjoy their natural right and heritage to work and to live decently, affording their children an equality of opportunit)· in the community life of a young country like this. There is no reason why there should be any unemployed person in this country. There should 1be no want rmrl no privation when we have over­production of the things that we require.

This morning, the hon. member for Cook clearly showed the result of the last war­a disastrous depression that cost the people of Australia as niuch as the war itself. It had the effect of bringing a great deal of poYerty into our midst, and unless the people re-fuse to be loaded with an intolerable war debt on internal expenditure, we shall be faced with the same position after this war. I say that on this occasion the war must be finaneer1 on the national credit of this country, on a basis of cost without interest. ''Free of inteTest'' is my policy in respect of find­ing money for the prosecution of the war in Australia. After dbtaining some £?iO,OOO,OOO by 'vay of loans in Britain a_t the beginning of the last war the · AustTahan GoYernment miserl seven sep'arate internal loans totalling no less than £230,000,000. The loans canieTt a high rate of interest and, what is more, were free of taxation. lf loans are to be raised in Australia to prosecute the present war the interest rate should be fixHd by P:ll'liament and restricted to 3 per cent., and none should be issued free of taxation. Aln'acly I hear complaints against that proposal, but is it not tr~e tha~ during the last war the so-railed patnots of Australia took advantage of a critical situa­tion and .invested their money in Government loans at a high rate of in tercst and free of taxation~ If the patriots of Australia are not prepared to invest their money in the defence of this country on the terms that I

Supply. [4 OcTOBER.] Supply. 695

haw outlined-interest limited to 3 per cent. and subject to taxation-the Govenm1ent have a very clear duty. If the Commonwealth Government have the courage and the capacity that we are led to believe they possess, they will need no telling ·what action they should take. We all believe that every reasonable step shoulu be taken to provide for the defence of Australia, but it will be the duty of all Governments, particularly State Governments, to resist any atten1pt to restrict the supply of money Tequired for the creation of employ­ment for our people. I believe that if the States will resist the policy of the Menzies GoYemment, 1vhich is to use all the available money for purposes of defence to the exclu­sion of employment for the 'people, which can only have disastrous results, this nefari­ous scheme will be nipped in the bud. Our iirst line of defence is to maintain normal employment, and if possible give work and wages to those of our people who to-day have neither.

In conclusion, I appeal to private enter­prise, to the business people of Qu-eensland, to co-operate with the Government in thi& connection, so that during the transition peTiod from peace-time economy to war-time economy nothing shall be done to accentuate the evil of unemploym'ent. Let us all co­operate and do our utmost, let us pull our weight aud resolve to declare war on poverty ancl do our best for those who are in need of our assistance.

Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (3.29 p.m.): After listening to the speech by the hon. member ~or South Brisbane, I feel that I should call m a messenger and ask him to send an urgent telegram to the Prime Minister with the sugge·stion that the hon. member be immediately appointed Minister for Defence.

The hon. member for South Brisbane has among other things, C'riticised the Federal Governmt=mt fnl' !lllrnu~TI(l" n-n .;..-. ............. ~~~ ,L_ l_-

m~de; in shipping freig:ht; -The-·;;T;l~gr;ph~~ pu~Jhshcs_ .the followmg ~tatement by the Pnme :\hmster on the subJect-

'' Early consideration is to be given by the Federal Government to the exten­sio:r:- of it~ pr~ce-iixing powers to include fre1ght. The mcrease of 20 per cent. in interstate shipping freight since the out­break of .war is likel:y to be investigated to ascertam whether h1gher rates are justi­iied. It is understood that the Government 1vill not hesitate to nse its powers if it cnn be shown that freight increases are excessive.''

Thn t knocks back the hon. member for South Brisbane.

\Ve must have confidence in ourselyes and our country if "lYe are to meet the future with renewed confidence. I wrote and nsed the slogan ''Business as usual'' on 26 August, and \Yar was not declared until 3 September. Our endeavour should be to keep the people cheerful, get on with our jobs, and not to over-\Yorry about the position of the war. I do not want to be misunderstood. I have

iive sons. They are all ready, and some of them are in camp at the moment. P8'rson­ally, I shall do what I am told, but we must keep industry and production going. We must be ready for any call by the central Government, or by this Government if the central Government delegates any power to them for the time being. I shall obey the Prime :Minister or the Premier of 'Queens­land, if he exercises powers on the Prime Minister's behalf. Above all, we mnst keep cool, and get on with onr business in an endeavour not merely to maintain but increase production. We must not let anyone go off our staffs, not even the smallest office boy, if it is at all possible to keep them. During the war 25 years ago, many people, not accustomed to such conditions as existed, became excited and began to 'retrench. That policy was wrong. We in this House, surely, are expected to be leaders of thought. I want the Premier to say more on this subject at every public gathering he attends and to stress it wherever possible in order that, by his influence. this. object will be a:ttained.

On Tuesday, ~he Premier charged the Opposition with crying stinking iish about Queensland. As a native of Queensland, I say emphatically that it is shocking for him to make any such statement about us. He ought to know bett8'r. No such statement was made from this side of the Committee. The Premier also made a great mouthful about the to-morrow. In fact, he took up the last few words of the speech by the Leader of the Opposition in the wrong light. It seems to me that both these hon. gentle­men have been spending their spare time on Sundays in studying their Bibles. They lboth quoted the Gospel according to Matthew, chapter 6, verse 34--

'' Take therefore no thought for the morrow for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.''

ThP T,p~rlPl' of! +ha. {)nnr.oi+;.-..n -im~d-

dra "lYing an analogy bet~~en -that an cl "th~ policy of the Labour Party. That appears to sum up their policy. That is wl1at the Leader of the Opposition wanted to convey to the House. The Premier misrepresented the position; no doubt he was speaking to the gallery.

I gi1·e the Premier credit for making a very fine speech yesterday. Just before the lun­cheon adjournment-about lO to 1-he rose to great heights and in an inspiring passage spoke of the high ideals of life. The Pre­mier is a clever man; he is clever in the art of political manipulation; he understands the political game; he understands how to move his men on the draught-board of politics. So he got away from the Budget and spoke in an idealistic strain in order to distract atten­tion from the deficiencies in the Budget. There is no doubt that that was his aim. I have seen such tactics before and seen through them. He often speaks to the gallery and utters statements that read well in '' Han­sarcl.'' If he were not tied hand and foot by pnrty politics, he would probably emerge as a great Australian leader.

696 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

On page 1 of the Financial Statement, the Treasurer refers to the surplus of £14,000 odd. I wish to quote for the information of hon. members something that I wrote 1vhen travelling in the Western mail from Dalby. I got a paper at Dalby, and as soon as I read about the surplus I \note this criticism, and had it finished before we reached Oakey. The article was published in the '' Toowoomba Chronicle,'' the kading 1d. daily in Aus­tralia, and reads as follows:-

''Mr. Herbert Yeates, :VLL.A., comment­ing on the Budget yesterday, said that the the surplus of £14,000 was nothing to brag about because the Government had camou­flaged the relief tax by changing its title over to State development tax and includ­ing it in consolidated revenue instead of keeping it separate under the relief scheme. With an income of £1,332,751 from this source and an expenditure of £1,180,839 from the same fund it would be seen that £151,912 remained in the Treasury towards catching up the deficit. Further, milway freights and fares were raised 5:'! per cent. during the period under rcYiew, which would account for an amount estimated at £225,000, or a total of approximately £377,000 additional taxation. Again, £250,000 was taken from the Main Roads Fund. A Government have power to auth­orise extra taxes on the 11eople. That does not need any special financial ability.

''A good season has prevailed in quite three-fourths of the State during the period under review. 'i'he credit is due to the State's wonderful Tecuperative pow~::r to respond to the season.

''In no instance has the Treasurer shown any regard for economy.''

After dealing with other suggestions, I went on as follows:-

"I observe that the Premier (Mr. Forgan Smith) is very elated regarding his so­called high finance, but, just like him, he goes back seven years to compare his little surplus with 19'31-32 record deficit and, in effect, blames his predecessors wholly for it. Let me remind him that there 'Yas no relief tax or State development tax then to Liraw from; nor was a qum·ter o:i a million taken from the roads fund, either. That pCTiod, too, was in the height of the world depres~ion over which no-one here had control. The Premier should admit frankly that it was his good fortune to be out of office during the parliamentary term 1929-1932. ''

The Premier has never had the clecencv to admit that at that time he was in the "cold shades of opposition under the willow trees, and was very glad to be there.

As to the surplus of £14,000, it must be remembered that there were ree01·d production and good seasons nearly all the while from 1932 on, with the exception of some areas that experienced dry weather in the Central­West, but during the last two years good seasons were enjoyed virtually all over the State. Queensland's production was raised from £18,000,000 in 1934-35, to £28,000,000

in 1938-39 because of the recovery all over the world of certain prices of marketable products and because of good seasons and the wonderful recuperative powers of this Ntate which gaye' increased output.

The settlers on the land brought in almost all of this money. A fuss has been made about concessions under the wool relief scheme, but it is the duty of the Government to help each industry whenever it is in trouble, and all Governments have done so right back to the 'SO's. There is no need for this Government to pat themselves on the back for giving a few concessions by carting stock from one place to another.

I a:n very surprised at the big mouthful that 1s made of these concessions in the Budget. When the loan conversions were made at a lower rate of interest than we had been paying, the proper thing to do was to reduce the interest here the State was charging its clients. I am surprised that a man of the Treasurer's ability should allow such phrases to go into the Financial State­ment as those he used. Why should the Government not reduce interest rates when !hey are getting money cheaper~ No credit JS due to any GoveTnment for doing that it is their duty. The total revenue of the St~te in 1859 was £6,400. In 186[) it was £738 000. Bv 1019 it hau risen to £9 415 000 an,i by 1 H:i9 it m1s £19,330,000. ' ' '

Mr. Jesson: You have got the figures wrong.

Mr. YEAT:ES: I will look after myself. The Budget estimatPs a revenue of £20,000,000 for the year ended 30 June 1940. At 30 Jun:, 1939, it was £19,330,000, a tremendous mcome for any Government.

The population of Queensland in the years specified was-

1860 1900 1920 1930 1939 (estimated)

28,000 493,000 750,000 916,000

1,ooo,oo6 In the_ first 20 years the population of Queens­land mcre0sed enormously but in the last 20 years it has risen only from 750 000 to 1,000,000. It appea'rs to me, thcr·efo;e, that whatever GoYernment may !Jc in control of the affairs . of Queensland, they should co-operate w1th the Commonwealth Govern­ment in an attempt to double the population, not only of Queensland, but of the whole of Australia in the next 20 years.

Mr. Jesson: What are you going to do about itW

Jir. YEATES: I believe that this can be done with proper encouragement anu a certain amount of migration.

I agree with the hon. member for South ~risbane that there sl;ould be no unemployed m a young country hke this.

Since 1860, Goyernment expenditure has jumped from £180,000 to £19,316,000. 'i'he public debt was £55,495,000 in 1914, and this

Supply. [4 OcTOBER.] Supply. 697

had risen to the enormous figure of £127,503,000 by 1939. The interest payable in 1914 was £1,912,826, and to-day it is £5,153,929! This is part of what has been called-and rightly ,eo--uncontrollable expen­dihuc. Since the ad,·cnt of Labour's bol'l'O\Y­and-spend policy in 1915, there has been an inc'rease of £61,000,000 in the public debt!

Labour's first platform is ''No borrow­ing.'' vVe find, hO\YCYer, that they have gone to the other extreme. Almost £4,000,000, including interest on the amount written off, \Yas spent on Stnte stations and State enter­prises in general-a shocking and foolish Yenture.

]}Jr. Jesson again interjected.

The CHAJRJIAN: Order! I ask the hon. member for Kennedv to allow the hon. mem­ber for East Toowoomba to address the Com­mittee in his own way.

Mr. YEATES: Before we can do anything locally to establish public service_s or enter~ prises or to encourage productwn out of reYen~c fun,]s, we have to pay £5,:JOO,OOO yearly for intcTest, plus exchange. A halt will haYc to he called. I am not going to advocate the extreme policy of J'lfr. Arnold Wienholt-not to borrow at all-but we must call a halt. The GoYernment go on borrow­ing, and I even heard hon. members saying to-day that they hoped the floating of loans would be successful. ~What sort of a system of finance is it to keep 'honowing antl borrow­ing, and then pay off the debt by borrowing again"! Where are we drifting to 7 Are we thinking of the future and of posterity~ No­one in this Committee has any right to be here unless he can think 25 years ahead-to the best of his ability at any rate.

Population statistics arc alarming. Not only <loes the birth rate appear to be stationary; it is liable to dril't back. In the face of a stationary population, with a strong leaning towards a declining birth rate, how can we go on borrowing and spending-put­ting ~so much of this money into bricks and mortar, into police stations costing £20,000, court houses costing £10,000, an cl so on~ A sum of over £370,000 \Yas spent last year on public buildings, ancl I am not speaking about the erection of workers' dwellings. That is a different matter, and is quite proper in its class.

The average hon. member of Parliament seems to think it his cluty to extract every penny he possibly can from the Treasurer and haYe it spent in his electorate. If £30,000 or £50,000 is spent in his electorate, he makes a great song about it, lbut I think that policy is absolutely wrong. No such money shoul<l be spent there, except for minor alteTa­tions, repairs, an<1 really necessary buildings. Jt is a shocking thing to me when L hear an hon. member of Parliament say: "I got £20,000 for this court house. Look at it. Is it not wonderful?'' The people living in such a place could often have waited quite a >~·hile for snch a building. That money could haYe been better spent damming creeks, such as those outside R.oma or Dalby, ancl thereby providing irrigation facilities that would have

been reproductive, a1Fl in helping the lamb­raising industry. I shall compliment the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock on another occasion for the good work he is doing in those areas. t:lome hon. members will deelare that the hon. member for ~ast Toowoomha would not build anything, but such a statement would not be conect. As the State en1erged from the depression, L shoul<l have spent a certain amount of money on the erection of public buildings. That woulc1 have ibeen an urgent necessity, and the work would ha.-e given employment, thus leading the country out of the depression slowly but surely.

Let me now turn to the Financial State­ment and deal with the railways problem. lt has been deelarecl that the takings reached ne>~· high levels, and that there was excep­tional prosperity in the service.

The JUinister for Transport, when passing through Rockhampton recently, told the Rock­hampton ''Bulletin'' what a wonderfully high lcYel of prosperity had been reached by the Railway Department, as much as to say: ''\Ye, the Labour Government, did all this. How wondeTful! '' Hon. members opposite, who are unable to think ahead, may say that it is wonderful, but I am not in the least satisfied with the present volume of railway traffic. 'l'he husiness is filtering away from it. \\' e shoulcl be able easily to increase rail­>Yay receipts by £500,000 to £700,000 per annum. Are we to sit here like kittens and believe fill that hon. members opposite say and be satisfied 'that the railways are' doing enough, and that nothing more is necessary"! Not on your life! We must progress. A sum of £63,000,000 has been invested in our railway system, and I say without any fear of criticism, that business should be attracted to it, not by oYertaxing road-users-although I believe that reasonable taxation should be imposed upon them to meet the cost of the roads-but by a system of genuine competi­tion.

· The passenger traffic is slipping away from the· Hailway Department. The transport that is used to bring calves to Cannon Hill is far too slow. Hail motors equipped with diesel eng; nes should be run express with this traffic, the cost of which is about 3~d. a mile, so that the Raihmy Department may compete f;n a reasonable basis with motor transport. There is no need to tax the motor-user off the road so as to bolster up a sluggish rail­way system.

The railway employees are giving splendid service to the country-I know many hundreds of them-but I shall not be satisfied until more traffic, especially passenger traffic, is brought to the railways. I want to see them hold the business. Above all, I do not want to see any man dismissed so long as there is profitable work to be done, but we cannot permit three men to do two men's work. VIe must create thB business. A tremendous arHa of country bounded by a line from Da~by to St. George, Dirranbancli, Thallon, across the railway line to \Vallumbilla, to Taroom, to the Burnett, and thence to the point of commencement is now free of prickly-pHar and carrying large

698 Supply. [ASSElVIBLY.] Supply.

flocks of sheep. The pear was not eradicated because of the efforts of 'the present Gowrn­ment, but through the splendid seTVices of the officers of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research attached to the Common­wealth Prickly-pear Hoard. Jl.fany millions of additional acres have been brought under sheep, and the Railway Department should be getting a greater share of the business from that area, but I want to tell the ::\linister for Transport that it is not getting nearly enough of that business because the railway senice is inadequate. The Hailway Depart­ment is being starved, but I shall deal in greater detail >Yith tha't matter on the appro­priate Estimates later on.

Speaking of the railways reminds me that I was lectured the other day by the ::\finister for Transport for asking questions about the late running of trains. He took me to task for taking up the time of Parliament on trivial matters. Nobody knows better than I do that it would be unwise to persi >t in taking up the time of PaTliament witt such questions, but they were a.sked as a prepara­tion for showing that our locomotives are more or less out of date, that there is not an adequate number of them, and that the depart­ment is starved financially. I wanted to put the two matters side by side. The Minister should know if trains run 58, 68, ancl 78 minutes late it holds up other trains. This delays our business community and travellers ancl prevents them from getting on with their job, which we are all asking them to clo. Who knows that some day I might not be Minister for Transport~

li'Ir. Power: God forbid!

Tlte Premier: Who knows? We once had a Minister for Transport who wanted to go back to the horse.

Jir. YEATES: At the commencement of my speech, I said there was notliing like confi­dence. I went to Toowoomba as a small boy with less than £20. I was told that I should never win a seat on the 'l'oowoomba City Council. Then I was told afterwards I should never win a seat in Parliament. When my boys were brought up and when it suited me to niake up my mind to go for Parliament seriously, not merely practice on the hon. member for Warrego-(Laughter)-I came here. Who knows then, that I shall not be Minister for Transport~ (Renewed laughter). Perseverance and work will enable us all to attain an objective.

I referred to the Railway Department as being starved financially. I want to point out that it is useless for any Minister for Transport to tell me that no money is avail­able for improving the service. :B'ancy only one diesel train being built in a year! :F'ancy only 12 locomotives being constructed in a year, while eight were discarded, leaving a net gain of four, in a business where £63,000,000 is invested! I do not blame the Commissioner-he cannot write out his own cheque to provide for the wants of his depart­ment-but money can be found and spent on the Story Bridge at Kangaroo Point. Hon. members opposite will say that is another thing altogether, that that expenditure is provided

from a trust fund. The point is that money was found. Money >Yas also found to c~n­struct the Maekay IT arbour. I am ~ ot dis­paraging that work, but approximately £1 250 000 was found for it. I had a look &t 'that work on two occasions.

The Premier: You are only about half a million out.

JUr. YEATES: The hon. gentleman is not reckoning the subsidy. That harbour scheme cost about £1,250,000, including the subsidy. I am not complaining aboltt it. It may or may not be a good business enterprise. 'l'he point I am making is that the fact that money could be found for such works as the Story Bridge and the lVIackay Harbour shows that the Railway Department is a cinderella. It has been neglected by the Government fo.r years. 'l'he Government. I;mst put ~ome busi­ness ideas into its aclmnustratwn, Ideas that have been formed in the teeth of eo m petition.

It is not enough that a man should be a good railway man. The good railway man has usually spent his time in an office, where he has been fcttered with red tape. I say with the greatest respect to the heads of the department that it is nec~s?ary to have worked in the teeth of competltwn, men whose earnings depended on how much business they got from the other fellow. I shall never be satisfied until we have people possessed of high business ca_Pacity at. the head of the department, even m an adVIsory capacity, and money is provid~d tu rcne>;' the plant and convert the olcl dismal carna~es into modern ones and accelerate the service generally. The ''Sunshine'' train could ~e made to dO the trip in 10 hours leSS than It now takes; and I shall explain ho:v that can be done when the Railway Estimates are under discussion.

The heading "Uncontrollable Expenditure" used by the Treasurer i.s perfectly :"ppro­priate. I do not expect him to do the Impos­sible. Of the total expenditure 26.68 per cent. goes in interest on the public debt. I blame GovernmentJ generally for piling up the public debt when there has not . be~n ~n increase in population sufficient to JUStify 1t, but I blame this Government more than any because thev raised the public debt from £55,000,000 "to £127,000,000. There were other Premiers who were worse offenders than the present Premier in that respect. I refer particularly to the late Mr. T. J. Ryan and Mr. E. G. 'l'heodore.

According to the ta ole of expenditure, 41.4 7 per cent. went in salaries and wages. I am just wondering whether the public service is over-manned. I ask that question and it is the Government's duty to answer it. I ·wish to add that the puihlic service is a first-class one; wherever I go I get courtesy and prompt attention. The service is not lacking in efficiency, but I _just >mnt to know if it is over-manned. It IS the duty of the Premier, in the interests of the taxpayers, to ascertain whether that is so. I also ask the Premier-and I want an answer later on-are the country dwellers finding the additional

Supply. [4 OCTOBER.] Supply. 699

money to pay for an overcrowded public service~

I want the Government to encourage more scttlement on the land. I know that the Secretary for Public Lands will be rather sur­prised at that remark, but it cannot be helped. I want him to go back to the days of Denham and Tolmie and see if he cannot do more in that respect. The Land Adminis­tration Board has clone a considerable amount of good •vork and so has the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock, about whom we shall speak later on.

I have been making some inquiries about sinking funds and I find that one was estab­lished in 1910. I am glad that somebody in the Government of that day-I do not know "~hether it ,,.as Kidston or Denham-had the good sense to think about a sinking fund in order to pay back what was borrowed but it is going on just the same as it was then at -!! per cent., or 10s. in every £100 that is bonowed.

The Premier: That was done under the Financial Agreement of 1927.

lUr. YEATES: I obtained my information from the Treasury this morning. If the hon. gentleman looks it up, I think he will see that a sinking fund at. the ratB of } per cent. was established in 1910. I am not at all satisfied at the way in which we speak, think, or act about paying back money. vVe are all the time for borrmving as much as w'e like. It brings back to me that verse 34 in Matthew, chapter 6-

' 'Eat, drink, and be merry for to-morrow we die.''

m words to that effect.

We think no more of M-morrow. The Pre­mier ·misconstrued the whole thing and sent it out to the Press, portion of which seems to be supporting him admirably. I respect­fully suggest t'O the Premier that he use his influence with the Loan Council with regard to the repayment of Queensland's debt-talk it over with the Government Statistician and Buggest a better sc·heme to repay the State debts at a faster rate. Then seriously study the problem of a stagnant birth rate with the view of stimulating it.

As the Premier was absent when I men­tioned it before, I should like to •re peat that in 1914 the interest on the public debt of the State IYas £1,972,826. That was cal­culated for me by ono of his head officers; it is not in the books. In 1939-and this is in the Statement-the interest on the debt was £.5,153,929, plus £828,000 for exchange, making a totrrl of £5,981,929, a serious handi­·cap for any Government.

On 31 December, 1938, the Government transfenf'cl £312,543 from the Unemploy­ment Helief Funu, n 'trust account, to con· ~olidatcd revenue. Their policy seems to be to borrow all they can get, then borrow more to pay off the first loan; in short, to keep on borrowing without giving any consideration to postnity. They use the high-sounding tem1 ' ' con Yersion'' to describe their system of lJO'ITowing to repay previous borrowings.

This policy, when overdone, is not at all satis­factory to me.

In seven years, £2,000,000 has been trans­ferred from the Main Roads J!'und to con­solidated reYenue. I realise that this is probably replaced by loan money, but that does not destroy the fact that that sum of £2,000,000 was not used for the purpose for which it •vas collected. What is done in Xew South vVales does not wo'l"l'y me; it is our business to be more careful here.

Then, too, £89,474 was transferred to con­solida tecl revenue from the Animals and Birds Fund. 'l'hat also is wrong. Now, when we IYant a few pounds to establish a flora and fauna park at Toowoomba, we find that no money is available. I have to go to the Co-ordinator-General of Public Works to see what ran be done on a 50-50 basis. I should not have to do that.

I find, too, that £50,000 has been trans­ferred from the Kyogle Railway Fund. I am not certain where this money came from. I understand that that was a loan, but I haYe written to the Commissioner for Railways, asking him to let me see the agreement bet•Yeen the Commonwealth and the States, and tell me the true financial position. vVe are waiting for the Commissioner's annual report now. Certainly, it is due, and others are overdue. When we ask for them we are told that they will be here in due course. Some of them are tabled on the last day of the session.

JUr. Power: That is in due course.

3Ir. YEATES: But it is not at all satis­factory. I respectfully ask the Secretary for Labour and Industry when he is going to table the report of his department. Will it be tabled a month before. the close of the session~ 'l'here seems to be something he is ashamed of.

When we add the £1,686,541 transfe·rrod from the Unemployment Relief Funil we have a total transfer from trust funds to consoli­dated revenue of £3,826,015 in seven years.

Credit for the success of the conversion loans in England must be given to Mr. Bruce, High Commissioner for Australia. However, a sum of only £7,220,000 has been paid off since the National Debt Sinking Fund was established, and I say that occmred in 1910.

JUr. Power: You are only 17 years out.

lUr. YEATES: I do not believe that I am and I am going to challenge the state­ment. I say that is not a sufficiently large amount to be paid off out of a total debt of £127,000,000. I notice that some interest is pairl in New York. I think that must be paid on some of the loans raised there by :Mr. E. G. Thcodore and :Mr. John Fihelly, but I am not sure. Why they went to New York and paid such an exorbitant rate ?f interest, I do not know. I intend to ascertam what that rate of interest really is and I am going to ask the Treasurer to-morrow for that information. I understand it is a high rate, but it should be mentioned in these state­ments. Including exchange, we are paying overseas interest at the rate of £4 lls. 4d. per

700 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Question.

cent. and Australian interest at the rate of £3 10s. 7d. Including exchange overseas, the rate is £5 15s. per cent. and on all other loans, excluding Treasury bills, it is £4 14s. 11 d. When it is actually necessary to raise loans, I should like to see more loan money raised in Australia, and I commend such a suggestion to the Premier for action when he next attends a meeting of the Loan Council.

I repeat that a certain amount of bonowing is justified. I do not go so far as ::\Ir. Arnolcl \Veinholt and oppose bonowing altogether, but no doubt far too much money is spent on unproductive works. If the Government would refuse to listen to politicians who want money spent in their electorates to ensure their return at the next election and would spend money on reproductive works, the country would be better off. I suggest to the Premier that in future he should tell members seek­ing the expenditure of money in their elec­torates that the policy of the Government is to develop Queensland, to dam rivers and small creeks for irrigation purposes, and construct other reproductive works. The money so spent >voul(l provide work for the unemployed in just the same way as if the money were spent on the erection of a court house or police station.

·where haYe the Government reduced taxa­tion during the year~ Much talk has been indulged in by the "big boys"-I beg your pardon, Mr. 0 'Keefe. I should say hon. members on the other side of the Committee -about the Government's reducing taxation. \Vhere. have they done so~ They granted a reductwn of a paltry 2d. in the £1 in the u.nemployment relief tax after first raising it like the shop~meper who saw a customer coming across the street and marked an article for sale at 5s. lld. and then dropped the price to make the sale. Close to the elections the rate was reduced by a paltr~- 2d. This same Government went to the country and said not one word to the recipients of relief that th~y intended to abolish the unemployment rehe~ scheme. There were 9,000 men or more workmg under that scheme in and around the metropolitan area, and it was feared that some seats might be lost to the Government I can imagine all that happened in caucu~ and ho;v they would talk. I do not hear anv of their secrets, and if I did I should no't repeat them, as the Premier and the hon member for Warr~go do. (Laughter.) If i found a eonfidenbal document belonging to the Trades and Labour Council or the Labo"r caucus I .should hand it straight back to the owners w1thout saying a word. (Goyernment laughter.)

The CHAIRlUAN: Order! I ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to the question before the Committee.

Mr. YEATES: Last year the Main Roads Commission spent £2,585,000 on road construc­tion. I notice that a sum of £505,818 was transferred from the Unemployment R·elief Fund and was taken from the revenu'8 from the Stat: development tax for this purpose, but I give the Government the credit that they had a perfect right to do it, and it is no

more than they ought to have done. The money has been well spent in the country by the Co-ordinator-General of Public ·works, Mr. Kemp, who is one of the best executive officers in the State. It is expected that a sum of £2,000,000 will be deriwd from the State­development tax this year, but I want to tell the Committee and the Cabinet in particular tha,t the money should be placed in a trust account, because I am satisfied that when we reach the end of the financial year-and a deficit of £60,000 is expected-the Treasurer may spring another surprise in the shape of a surplus of £12,000 out of this money that ought to be in a trust account. The tax was originally introduced to meet an emergency sihiation and although it is now camouflaged under the name of State uevelopment tax, the reYenuc should still be paid into a trust fund.

I see no mention anywhere in the Budget of any measures designed to bring about economy. I am surprised that hon. members opposite are not now interjecting that I want to sack a lot of men. \Vhen I speak of economy, I mean value for the money that is spent. If 20,000 to 30,000 men are engaged on public works we are justified in expecting a reasonable return from the money. I have already pointed out that much business is slipping away from the Railway Department whereas its revenue should be increasing enor­mously. I shall show hon. members opposite­what we will do when we get into power, and that time is not far off. (Government laughter.)

On page 19 of his Budget, the T'reasurer said-

'' In view of the appalling amorn1t of unemployment >vhich prevailed when this GoYcrnment took office .... ''

Appalling amount of unemployment! \Vhat a mouthful he made of it. It is a wonder he did not tell the Government Printer to under­line that in red-hon. members opposite like that colour. He implies that the Moore Government left them in that mess, but all the while--

( Time expired.)

Progress reported.

The House adjourned at 4.30 p.m.