JOINT REVIEW PANEL FOR THE ENBRIDGE NORTHERN … · joint review panel for the enbridge northern gateway project commission d’examen conjoint du projet enbridge northern gateway

JOINT REVIEW PANEL FOR THE ENBRIDGE NORTHERN GATEWAY PROJECT

COMMISSION D’EXAMEN CONJOINT DU PROJET ENBRIDGE NORTHERN GATEWAY

Hearing Order OH-4-2011 Ordonnance d’audience OH-4-2011

Northern Gateway Pipelines Inc.

Enbridge Northern Gateway Project Application of 27 May 2010

Demande de Northern Gateway Pipelines Inc.

du 27 mai 2010 relative au projet Enbridge Northern Gateway

VOLUME 19

Hearing held at

Audience tenue à

Royal Canadian Legion Branch no. 268 330 - 4th Avenue East

Fort St. James, British Columbia

February 2, 2012 Le 2 février 2012

International Reporting Inc.

Ottawa, Ontario (613) 748-6043

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© Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada 2012

as represented by the Minister of the Environment

and the National Energy Board

© Sa Majesté du Chef du Canada 2012

représentée par le Ministre de l’Environnement et

l’Office national de l’énergie

This publication is the recorded verbatim transcript

and, as such, is taped and transcribed in either of the

official languages, depending on the languages

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Cette publication est un compte rendu textuel des

délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et

transcrite dans l’une ou l’autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l’audience publique. Printed in Canada Imprimé au Canada

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Transcript Hearing Order OH-4-2011

HEARING /AUDIENCE OH-4-2011

IN THE MATTER OF an application filed by the Northern Gateway Pipelines Limited Partnership for a Certificate of Public Convenience and Necessity pursuant to section 52 of the National Energy Board Act, for authorization

to construct and operate the Enbridge Northern Gateway Project.

HEARING LOCATION/LIEU DE L'AUDIENCE

Hearing held in Fort St. James (British Columbia), Thursday, February 2, 2012 Audience tenue à Fort St. James (Colombie-Britannique), Jeudi, le 2 février 2012

JOINT REVIEW PANEL/LA COMMISSION D’EXAMEN CONJOINT S. Leggett Chairperson/Présidente K. Bateman Member/Membre H. Matthews Member/Membre

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ORAL PRESENTATIONS/REPRÉSENTATIONS ORALES Larry Sagalon Daiya-Mattess Keyoh - Mr. Dick A’Huille - Mr. Victor Sam - Ms. Lillian Sam - Mr. Jim Munroe Métis Nation of BC - Mr. Gary Ducommun

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TABLE OF CONTENTS/TABLE DES MATIÈRES

(i) Description Paragraph No./No. de paragraphe Opening remarks by the Chairperson 10419 Larry Sagalon - Oral presentation by Mr. Larry Sagalon 10465 Daiya-Mattess Keyoh Mr. Dick A’Huille Mr. Victor Sam Ms. Lillian Sam Mr. Jim Munroe - Oral presentation by Mr. Victor Sam 10563 - Oral presentation by Ms. Lillian Sam 10569 - Oral presentation by Mr. Dick A’Huille 10586 - Oral presentation by Mr. Jim Munroe 10600 Métis Nation of BC Mr. Gary Ducommun - Oral presentation by Mr. Gary Ducommun 10708

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LIST OF EXHIBITS/LISTE DES PIÈCES (i)

No. Description Paragraph No./No. de paragraphe Visual Aid No. 27 Map copyrighted to the Smithsonian Institute, 1940, by Julian H. Steward 10458 Visual Aid No. 28 Map submitted by Mr. Larry Sagalon 10522

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Opening remarks Chairperson


--- Upon commencing at 8:58 a.m./L’audience débute à 8h58 10419. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. 10420. Forgive us for potentially looking a little impersonal, but everybody who

talks today on the panel we would appreciate you using the microphone. 10421. Before we get under way, we’re very privileged to start with an opening

prayer. So with that, I’d like to turn this over to Catherine, who I understand is also a Keyoh Holder, and ask her to open the session for us.

10422. MS. COLDWELL: I am very privileged to say this opening prayer for

our session here this morning, very important session this morning. (Opening Prayer in native language) 10423. MS. COLDWELL: Heavenly Father, we are gathered here again today

to talk about our land, our livelihood. Creator, you have created this world, you have created this earth for us to provide -- you have provided for us with this earth and the earth provided for us. This is why we are -- we have the right to protect what we -- the little we have left on this earth. Heavenly Father, we ask you in your name to send the Holy Spirit and guide us through this. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

10424. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for the opening prayer. 10425. Good morning, everyone. My name is Sheila Leggett. I am the Chair of

this Joint Review Panel. I have two colleagues who also form this Joint Review Panel. On my right-hand side is Mr. Kenneth Bateman.

10426. MEMBER BATEMAN: Good morning. 10427. THE CHAIRPERSON: And on my left-hand side is Mr. Hans

Matthews. 10428. MEMBER MATTHEWS: Good morning. 10429. THE CHAIRPERSON: We have some staff with us also this morning

who are helping us get all the logistics of the process set up and also who are the people who are very knowledgeable about the process, so if you have any questions they would be the people to talk to.

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10430. In the back, I think many of you have met Ms. Brenda Price. She’s our

Process Advisor. We also have Ms. Louise Niro, our Regulatory Officer. At the back we have Ms. Jessica Fung, our IT Specialist, as well as we have Mr. Nelson Peters with us, who may be outside at this point. He’s our Safety and Security Advisor.

10431. In addition to that, we have two contractors who help, in my words, kind

of keep the lights on but it’s really keep the microphones working and make sure that the webcast runs and record our session today, and so we have Mr. Sean Prouse as our court reporter and in the back we have Mr. Jon Konecny doing all our sound, IT, logistics information.

10432. Kenneth, Hans and I are all Members of the National Energy Board and

we’ve been tasked to make decisions under both the National Energy Board Act and the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act for the Northern Gateway Pipelines Limited Partnership Application. We usually end up calling it Northern Gateway; that’s quite a mouthful otherwise.

10433. The NEB is an independent, quasi-judicial regulatory body. Our decisions

as a Panel will be based solely on the relevant information we obtain through this Joint Review Process.

10434. As we’ve mentioned before, this session today, as all our sessions, is being

webcast on our website. As well, the complete record of all the written and the oral proceedings to date that have gone on, if you’re wanting any of that information, it’s all on our website as well.

10435. There’s two sets of hearings that will be going on as part of this process.

One is the community hearings, which is what we’re doing today, where we’re collecting oral evidence, which is typically traditional -- Aboriginal traditional knowledge, information that can’t be communicated to the Panel in writing.

10436. After that, we’ll be proceeding into a set of what we’re calling the final hearings, and that’s where the opportunity will be available for all the parties to question each other on the evidence and provide their final arguments to the Panel.

10437. Sharing your traditional knowledge and your personal knowledge and

your experiences on the impacts of the proposed project -- that the proposed project may have on you and your community and how any impacts could be eliminated or

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reduced is of great help to us at this point in the process. 10438. This is the type of information that we’re here to listen to and we really

appreciate that everybody in this room has chosen to be here today, but especially those who are going to present oral evidence to us.

10439. So with that we’ll get under way. Is Mr. Sagalon here? Oh, terrific, thank

you. If you could just come and join us at this other table, we’ll get ready to get under way.

10440. Welcome, Mr. Sagalon. The first thing we’ll do is ask for you to be sworn

or affirmed. So we’ll ask Ms. Niro to come forward and do that. LARRY SAGALON: Sworn 10441. THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Sagalon. 10442. Do I understand that you have a map that you’d like to refer to today?

Okay. 10443. And Brenda, you’ve got that map with you there? Okay, terrific. 10444. Have other parties had the chance to review this map? Is this map

anywhere in the written evidence? 10445. MS. PRICE: I don’t think so. 10446. THE CHAIRPERSON: It’s not already present. Okay. 10447. Sorry. Yes, Bernie? 10448. MR. ROTH: Yes, Ms. Price showed me the map. I think it’s in some of

the materials that were filed the day before yesterday. There were a few documents that were filed and the map is a very similar, if not the same, map that has already been filed on the Board’s Registry. I don’t think it has an exhibit number or has been introduced yet. But people will be speaking to a similar map later this afternoon, or today.

10449. THE CHAIRPERSON: So I understand you have no objections.

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10450. Could we get one more roving mic over here, please? 10451. You have no objections, Mr. Roth, to this? 10452. MR. ROTH: No objections. 10453. THE CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other parties who wish to talk to

this visual aid? 10454. And so this is a -- excuse me? Could you please identify yourself, sir? 10455. MR. MUNROE: I’m Jim Munroe, and I can cite that map. It’s

copyrighted to the Smithsonian Institute. It’s a 1940 map by Julian H. Steward. 10456. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Munroe. Terrific, thanks very

much. 10457. So Ms. Niro, could we have a visual aid number for this map, please,

recognizing that it will be useful in the Panel being able to understand Mr. Sagalon’s comments that he’s making to us today?

10458. THE REGULATORY OFFICER: Yes, this will be Visual Aid No. 27.

--- VISUAL AID NO. 27:

Map copyrighted to the Smithsonian Institute, 1940, by Julian H. Steward 10459. THE CHAIRPERSON: Terrific. 10460. That’s all the formalities over with, Mr. Sagalon. Thank you very much.

Do you think -- would it be useful to be able to put it up or are you just going to speak to it on the table?

10461. MR. SAGALON: It would be good to put it up somewhere. 10462. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So maybe we could just get some tape

and tape it up across the top of the… --- (A short pause/Courte pause)

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Oral presentation Mr. Larry Sagalon


10463. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks for bearing with us, Mr. Sagalon. It's

just going to be important for everybody in the room to be able to see what you're pointing to.

10464. So with that, we're ready to listen to you, and thank you very much for

being here. --- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. LARRY SAGALON: 10465. MR. SAGALON: My name is Larry Sagalon. I am a Keyoh Holder from

Great Beaver Lake. 10466. Great Beaver Lake is 20 miles long and it's 23 miles from Fort St. James.

Great Beaver Lake has five main Keyohs around the lake, and it's also surrounded by other Keyohs. The name of our Keyoh is Adih K'enla, and it's been in our family for -- it's been handed down to us, and the same as the other Keyohs around Beaver Lake.

10467. There's three villages that were around the lake before the European

contact, and Adih K'enla is one of the villages. There is a black dot right here that's a village that's been documented by Julian Steward, and there's another village at the end of the lake here. And there's supposed to be another village by Salmon River.

10468. When the fur trade came to our area, the Hudson's Bay Company tried to

break up the Keyohs into smaller areas so that they could get more people out trapping, but our grandfathers wouldn't let that happen. They kept the Keyohs the same. That's how it is today.

10469. There's two main creeks that feed into Great Beaver. There's one right

here that's called Adenokah (ph), and the other is Beaver Creek. And Beaver Creek is also connected to Salmon River, and Salmon River flows all the way down this way to -- flows into the Fraser River.

10470. And the Adenokah (ph) Creek is right in the path of the pipeline, and the

pipeline is going to be -- going about 16 kilometres by the lake, just about this whole area here. And the closest to the lake is about half a kilometre away, and that is very close to the lake.

10471. There is also a grizzly bear den in sight in the -- in here. That's the Shasti

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(ph) Trail, and there's another grizzly bear den in sight by Jumping Lake. And Jumping Lake is further down. I don't know if it's in the pipeline route, but there's two grizzly bear denning sites that we know of.

10472. No one from Gateway has contacted our families about the impacts that's

going to happen to the land. They never asked us where we picked berries or anything or the plants that we use for medicine.

10473. Great Beaver Lake is also a major moose calving area. The whole lake is

sort of swampy and perfect for moose calving area. 10474. In the summer, we get pelicans and sand hill cranes, and in the winter we

get trumpeter swans that they stay in Beaver Creek because Beaver Creek doesn't freeze. And in the summer, they go to Adenokah (ph). And the Adenokah (ph) Creek, there's three beaver dams that's been in that creek since I've always remembered those creeks being there. And those creeks are still there.

10475. I was born in Trembleur Lake, but I was adopted by my Auntie Cecilia

and her husband, Pierre Sagalon. And they raised me as their own son. That's how I am the Keyoh Holder.

10476. Pierre passed away when I was only five years old, but I learned about our Keyohs through our uncles, Lazar Pius and Jimmy Seymour. They have a Keyoh across from ours, and I learned all the trails and lakes and the names of our bays and creeks from them.

10477. And sometimes I would go trapping with my cousin, Richard Prince. His

Keyoh is right next to mine. And sometimes we would trap with Joey, and his trap line is also next to ours.

10478. And 1967 was the first time I went back out since Pierre passed away that

time. And I stayed in school most of the time and the price of fur was very good, so all the Keyoh Holders went out. Some of the Elders, it was the last time they went out. We all went out as one group, which never happened again.

10479. On that trip was Isidore Louis. He was an Elder, and my Uncle Lazar

Pius, Jimmy Seymour, Map Julian (ph), most of the Elders have never been back out there since. That's how much that lake means to our people.

10480. Three years ago, forestry students from UBC came up to our territory and

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they worked with our family and learned about our trails and what we use for medicine and where we pick berries.

10481. They made us a land use management for our Keyoh. 10482. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Sagalon, is that part of the information

that’s been filed in a motion requested for admission to leave evidence, is it not? 10483. I am just trying to understand. Are you planning to refer to this document

while you speak? Is that your plan? 10484. MR. SAGALON: Yes, our family is going to be using this in -- for

forestry and we can use it to show medicine and other stuff we use. 10485. THE CHAIRPERSON: So this is just -- this is something that as a

Keyoh you’re using as a resource base. 10486. Were you -- was it your --- 10487. MR. SAGALON: Yes. 10488. THE CHAIRPERSON: --- intention to leave it behind today or were

you just planning to have it there to help you as your speaking? 10489. MR. SAGALON: I think it’s a very useful tool for our Keyoh and we’re

still working with forestry and other groups to -- just to help protect our land. 10490. THE CHAIRPERSON: And you’re just wanting us to be aware that you

have such a document? 10491. MR. SAGALON: Yes. 10492. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. 10493. MR. SAGALON: Just to let you know that we’re -- what we’re doing to

our -- for our Keyoh. 10494. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. 10495. Mr. Roth did you have a comment?

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10496. MR. ROTH: (Off mic). Yes. It’s not the one that was filed a couple of

days ago. 10497. THE CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes when we simplify we end up

making things more complicated. I apologize for this. --- (A short pause/Courte pause) 10498. MR. ROTH: Sorry. It’s not the one that was filed a couple of days ago

but it’s a very similar document. 10499. MR. SAGALON: It should be the same. 10500. MR. ROTH: It’s a very similar document to the other Keyoh holder that

will be speaking later today and it is very relevant information that will be, I think, of use to the Panel in understanding the oral presentation.

10501. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Roth. 10502. Are there comments from any other parties on this document? 10503. MR. SPENCER: (Off mic) on behalf of Canada. We have reviewed the

materials that were filed recently that were fairly extensive. We didn’t have a chance to review them carefully but at this point we don’t have an objection to those being used today, so that we can move forward, however, we may at some point.

10504. There was some reference to potential prejudice; we may at some point

apply for permission to file further evidence… 10505. THE COURT REPORTER: I’m sorry; we didn’t pick this up at all on

the recording. 10506. MR. SPENCER: Okay. Scott Spencer on behalf of Canada. 10507. And I just wanted to address the issue of the additional evidence that is

being brought forward today. I think it is all evidence that was presented and filed yesterday with a motion.

10508. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Not this one.

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10509. MR. SPENCER: This isn’t? 10510. MR. SAGALON: Similar. 10511. MR. SPENCER: Okay. So if you want to deal with that, we’d be

prepared to speak to that but otherwise, if this is a new document… 10512. THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to speak to this particular

document, Mr. Spencer? 10513. MR. SPENCER: No, if Mr. Roth doesn’t have an objection to it and the

Panel is prepared to allow the witness to use it for today, that’s fine. 10514. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Spencer. 10515. So, Mr. Sagalon, I think that the Panel would be very interested in

receiving a copy of this document if you’d be prepared to give it to us. Would that work for you?

10516. MR. SAGALON: I think there’s a disc that we can use. 10517. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So we could have an opportunity then to

have it on the written evidence and we’ll -- so for today we’ll enter it as a visual aid and then that -- we’ll look forward to hearing your comments on the document and what it means to your Keyoh.

10518. So, we’ll just finish with the administrative part of that and then we’ll

move forward. 10519. MR. SAGALON: Okay. 10520. THE CHAIRPERSON: So, Ms. Niro, could we have a visual aid

number? 10521. Let’s just deal with one at a time. Okay, so let’s get a visual aid number

for this one. 10522. THE REGULATORY OFFICER: This will be Visual Aid No. 28.

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--- VISUAL AID NO. 28:

Map submitted by Mr. Larry Sagalon 10523. THE CHAIRPERSON: Terrific. Thank you. 10524. And Mr. Bateman was just pointing out that you have another document in

front of you. Were you planning to refer to that at some point? 10525. MR. SAGALON: It’s just the pipeline maps. 10526. THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, all right. So that’s already on the

evidence then. 10527. Okay. So I’m sorry for the interruption. I hope we didn’t break your train

of thought. We’re very interested in hearing your comments and I’ll shut off my microphone again.

10528. Thank you. 10529. MR. SAGALON: So I can read from parts of it? 10530. THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely. 10531. MR. SAGALON: Okay, it starts out with -- it says:

“Obstruct; Larry Sagalon, holder of the Adih K’enla Keyoh, is witnessing many potential compromises to the integrity of his Keyoh located north-east of Fort St. James. Moncton pine beetle, logging operations, increased hunting, jeopardized water quality and a proposed community forest and an oil pipeline highlight the issues currently affecting the Keyoh. The objective of this management plan is to address these issues by developing scenarios that will allow Larry to have greater decision-making authority over his Keyoh.

Our team visited Fort St. James and the Adih K’enla Keyoh to meet with Larry, his family and other Keyoh Holders. Their values and management preferences were identified through conversation and retelling of some of the Sagalon family’s historical narratives. We have since modelled scenarios for the Adih K’enla Keyoh and evaluated those using values and indicators and echo system

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service evaluation.” 10532. One of the things that amazed the forestry students was how passionate we

are about our land and at one part of the book they tried to put a value on the land but they couldn’t --like a monetary value or whatever. I think they just came up with a number like 350 million or something and that’s just for a small 17,000 square hectares.

10533. You could see the green outline is the boundaries. There’s one, two, three

-- there’s four -- five main Keyohs around the lake but you can see there’s other Keyohs connected to it further up north and by the Stewart River. So anything happens on Beaver Lake or Salmon River it affects the whole area.

10534. I grew up on the land so I’ve seen all the changes that come to our people.

And we used to go to our Keyoh with a wagon pulled by a team of horses and when the railroad came they just ploughed everything, they went through some grave sites and we never got compensated for that.

10535. And when the Sawmill started in Fort St. James, they stared taking our

trees and they told our Elders that you'll be compensated for it, but we're still fighting with forestry.

10536. Whenever we fight for our land, I tell the people that's not only for First

Nations; it affects everybody. We all breathe the same air and we all need fresh water.

10537. I am still a member of the North American Fur Auction. I have been a

member since -- since they started, and we send out our furs to the auction and they sell the furs and they pay us.

10538. But the last five or six years, we haven't been trapping that much because

we are trying to keep the land as -- the same as much as possible. But we still take some beaver and moose and other animals for food, and fishing. And Salmon River is a spawning ground for salmon, the Coho salmon. And there's lots of other -- there's kokanee in the lake and there's trout.

10539. And I have some material from Julian Steward. It says:

"Two centuries ago, the Carrier were hunters and fishers who lived in some kind of simple Bands and lacked any nobility or potlaching. The research problem was first to ascertain the

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process of change from hunting Bands to the nobility and potlaches, and second, to understand how the latter broke down into individual families, each with its own trapping territories."

10540. Our Keyoh was bigger but it was the owner before, Pierre, gave half to a

friend of his and the other half they gave to Pierre, this part. 10541. In 1925, the Keyoh Holders of Sabawoon got together to recognize and

respect each other's boundaries and holders of the Keyohs. The boundaries remain the same today. The Keyoh Holders today still use the Indian names of the bays and the creeks.

10542. Since 2004, the Keyoh Holders of Great Beaver Lake have been meeting

at least once a month to help each other, support each other. We have students from UBC that come up every year and do management plans for the other Keyoh Holders. And we had a law professor from UBC come up and document how our Keyohs were passed down to us.

10543. In 2010, we had a gathering at Adih K’enla to celebrate the gathering that

was held by our grandfathers just to recognize each other’s Keyohs and Keyoh Holders, and that was on the APTN documentary, "Closer to Home".

10544. So we're pretty active trying to keep our -- protect our land. We don't just

use it for trapping; we use it for other things like collecting berries and gathering our medicine. Sometimes we just go out there to spend time with our families. And I don't know what will happen if that pipeline goes through. It'll never be the same.

10545. I think that's about all I can say for now. 10546. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Sagalon. Thank you very

much. Thank you for taking the opportunity to speak with us, and we appreciate you making the time to be here.

10547. MR. SAGALON: Oh, and John Dewhirst is doing a report for the

genealogy for our Keyoh, like how it was handed down to us. He's still working on it, and I just got -- I just have a little bit of it here.

10548. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Sagalon, was that the law professor who

you referred to, or is that a different individual?

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Daiya-Mattess Keyoh - Oral presentations Mr. Victor Sam


10549. MR. SAGALON: He's -- no, he's not from UBC. 10550. THE CHAIRPERSON: Could we get you just to repeat his name for us

so that we can 10551. --- 10552. MR. SAGALON: John Dewhirst. 10553. THE CHAIRPERSON: John Dewhirst. Terrific, thank you. 10554. Thank you very much for being here today. Much appreciated. --- (Applause/Applaudissements) 10555. THE CHAIRPERSON: So the second group that we have on our list to

present to us today is the Daiya-Mattess Keyoh. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. If I'm not, please feel free to teach me how.

10556. So if we could get that panel to come forward and get yourselves’

comfortable at this table, and we'll get ready to -- first of all, we'll start with swearing or affirming you and then we'll be in listening mode.

--- (A short pause/Courte pause) 10557. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Munroe, if there's more people to sit at the

table than will comfortably fit, we can always do it in two parts and just change the -- maybe take a bit of a break and then change the panel. I don’t want anyone to feel like they’re being scrunched in or anything.

--- (A short pause/Courte pause) 10558. THE CHAIRPERSON: Perfect. Thank you. 10559. So the first step we’ll do, just before we get under way, is to have you

either sworn or affirmed, and I’ll ask Ms. Niro to come forward and do that. 10560. Thank you.

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Daiya-Mattess Keyoh - Oral presentations Mr. Victor Sam


LILLIAN SAM: Affirmed VICTOR SAM: Affirmed DICK A’HUILLE: Affirmed JIM MUNROE: Affirmed 10561. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10562. So we’ll turn it over to you in the order in which you would like to speak

with us. Thank you very much for being here. --- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. VICTOR SAM: 10563. MR. SAM: Thank you. 10564. Hello, my name is Victor Sam. I am a member of Nak’azdli Band. Each

Band member belongs to a Keyoh. Our Keyoh’s name is Daiya-Mattess. The Nak’azdli people have never been under treaty.

10565. We’re here to tell the National Energy Board that we’re totally rejecting

this proposed pipeline going through our territory. 10566. Traditionally, Keyoh holders make their own decisions regarding their

own Keyohs. Daiya-Mattess Keyoh has hired John Dewhirst -- he’s an anthropologist -- to study Nak’azdli’s government system.

10567. I’d like to introduce Lillian Sam at this time for a genealogy history of

Daiya-Mattess. 10568. Lillian. --- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MS. LILLIAN SAM: 10569. MS. SAM: I am a researcher, that was my work in the past, and I did a lot

of research on my family tree, seven generations. And I worked for the Nak’azdli Band in the past and I also worked for UNN -- UNN used to be in Prince George -- and Carrier Sekani Family Services and Carrier Tribal Council in the past.

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Daiya-Mattess Keyoh - Oral presentations Ms. Lillian Sam


10570. And I worked on the family tree because I wanted to know who my people were. I wanted to know where I came from.

10571. I was sent to residential school and when I came back home my

grandfather, Chief Louis Billy Prince, was alive. He was pretty old when I came home. And I started going down the river with him. My dad used to go down the river, our Keyoh is down on the Stewart River. And from just being with them, I wanted to know who my ancestors were because I never learned this in school.

10572. And when I started working for the Nak’azdli Band, I did more research

and I'm known for the family tree because people come to me and ask me who their relatives are. Some that have been away from the community were coming back to the Reserve and wanting to know who their ancestors were.

10573. But this is an important part; I’m speaking on behalf of Kenny Sam.

Kenny is related to me through my late husband. His brother was Johnny Sam, the late Johnny Sam. And this is where Kenny and this family picture is from. And this goes quite far back.

10574. And I can speak on Chief Kwa (ph); that was my great-great-grandfather.

I don’t know if you can -- I can point it there. And for Justa Sam -- okay, Johnny Sam is number five here, and that’s Victor and Kenny’s dad, okay. And then the line goes up to Justa and Catherine, the late Justa Sam. On the other side is Josephine and Isidore Louie -- number four, Isidore Louie. And that’s how the line is passed down.

10575. When they talk about Keyoh, it’s mainly more our traditional areas they’re

talking about. And it keeps going climbing up and where Isidore is, Dick A’Huille is -- number six is right here and number three is Louie Mattess and Yulali Patrick (ph). And it keeps going up to Daiya up on number two. You could see Louie Mattess was born in 1875.

10576. And for -- sometimes the records -- on the Catholic records, there’s no

actual date for a person that was born because we were never recognized and our birthdays were not recorded in the past. Even with the Chinese people, it was just later on. And sometimes the names can get mixed up because of our language.

10577. This is how the line was passed down. And most of our Keyoh Holders

just when I did research, I saw how it was interconnected and we’re all one big -- kind of like a big family. And our lifestyle was more like when my grandfather was

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Daiya-Mattess Keyoh - Oral presentations Mr. Dick A’Huille


alive, always on the land, always connected with the land, which is so important for us.

10578. We live differently. We eat different things. This is who we are. We’re

not afraid to say that. We have our culture. We have our way of living. We have our way of connections to the animals, to the birds, to whatever is living. And when they talk about the plants and Mother Earth, the medicines come from it. And the Elders today still make medicine for us.

10579. When they take the plants from Mother Earth they leave an offering, they

leave something behind so that it will grow back again. This is respect for the land. This is how I grew up. My mother did the same thing.

10580. There’s so much to say. 10581. How can I speak on behalf of my people? I can only emphasize that it’s

so important for us to be heard, to be recognized for who we are and to allow us to live as we live and not have to answer to someone that wants to give you money in exchange for the land.

10582. Thank you. --- (Applause/Applaudissements) 10583. MR. VICTOR: Thank you, Lillian. 10584. Next, I’d like to introduce Dick A’Huille. He’s an Elder in the Daiya-

Mattess. He’s going to tell you in his own words how he feels about the pipeline going through our Keyoh.

10585. Dick, you’re up. --- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. DICK A’HUILLE: 10586. MR. A’HUILLE: I am Dick A’Huille. 10587. I’ve been on the trap line since I was about 15 years old. I quit school and

I went out at springtime and I been on that trap line all my life there. Every year I go up there. And there’s lots of creeks there where the pipelines are going through there.

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Daiya-Mattess Keyoh - Oral presentations Mr. Dick A’Huille


I see lots of lakes. There’s a creek going right there. Is that the end of the lake there? 10588. A creek going in here, then a creek going in here, then a creek going in

here. And there’s all beaver dams right in here. They’re all going up to Salmon River there. There’s all little lakes there and there’s all beaver dams all in through here that goes into this here and in here.

10589. We got all the trap lines set right down through here. And we take short

cuts from there to the Salmon River to here and from there to there. We’ve got two trails there going through there. Then these go through the Salmon River in there.

10590. All of the creeks there going through all these to the Salmon River where

we trap all the way through. And all the beavers they all go down to the river, that’s where we catch them, and the rest they all go down to the Beaver Lake there.

10591. There’s all beavers that’s going from the Salmon River here, going

through here and right there. There’s a creek going through there. And we got all the beaver stretchers hanging up all through here. They must be all torn down by now -- all rotten there.

10592. And where is that pipeline going through? Oh, there -- yeah, that’s bad

there. I don’t think I’ll let them go through -- the pipeline through there. Pretty hard -- so many creeks there and so much beaver there too.

10593. We got lots of traps there are all going through there, all them -- trees are

all gone there, forestry took them down. Now they want to put the pipeline through there. What more do they want?

10594. They destroyed my life from now on now and I don’t want to let them go

through there. They’re going to destroy everything in there if the pipeline busts. There’s too many creeks going through in there and beaver dams.

10595. Yes, that’s all. 10596. MR. SAM: Thank you, Dick. 10597. Daiya-Mattess Keyoh has hired John Dewars -- he’s an Anthropologist --

to study Nak’azdli government system.

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Daiya-Mattess Keyoh - Oral presentations Mr. Jim Munroe


10598. At this time I’d like to introduce Jim Munroe to tell you about John Dewars’ findings regarding Nak’azdli government system.

10599. Jim. --- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. JIM MUNROE: 10600. MR. MUNROE: Thank you, Victor. 10601. I am here today -- I was asked by Ken Sam to speak for him on his behalf.

He couldn’t attend. He is a registered intervenor and he’s a spokesman for the Daiya-Mattess Keyoh for Dick. Dick is the boss of the Keyoh.

10602. And then there’s a lineage that follows; Ken is next in line as the Keyoh

Hotachum (ph) and a Keyoh Hotachum is the boss of the Keyoh, the Chief of the Keyoh, of the family, takes care of the land. And Dick right now is the Keyoh Hotachum and today lots of people refer to them as Keyoh Holders.

10603. You’ve heard how passionate people are about the land and the family is

about -- the Daiya-Mattess family is, of course, very passionate about the land. You’ve heard about the impacts of logging have -- the family has been opposed to the destruction of the land and the impacts it’s had on the wild life and their dependents and survival on that from the animals.

10604. And this is a picture in my PowerPoint of a protest that -- in here is Ken

Sam and Victor Sam a couple of years ago. 10605. The Keyoh is, again, located north-east on the north-east shore of Great

Beaver Lake and it’s about 40 kilometres east of Fort St. James. 10606. And this is the map that Larry had up, and this is an excerpt from that map

and it’s blown up to show the Daiya. And Lillian talked about Daiya was Louie Mattess’ -- where Louie Mattess got the land from -- he passed it on. And then you can see Louie Mattess’ name here.

10607. And Louie Mattess is Dick’s grand-father. Dick was raised by Isidore

Louie who is Louie’s son. So Dick is -- the orange line was the original territory that Daiya owned and Daiya owned this prior to 1840, which is significant, I think, because the courts look at 1846 as a Title date.

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10608. So Crown and First Nations Aboriginal Title is co-existing sovereignties,

co-existing Titles, because the Crown -- the First Nations have never ceded their Title to the land and in B.C. there are no treaties.

10609. So we have -- we’re here to tell you about our impacts to this area that

Dick owns on behalf of his family. 10610. In the report by John Dewhirst, he wrote that the Keyoh with its extended

family is the main traditional economic and political event of the Eastern Carriers. Keyohs are ancestral lands of patrilineal extended family led by Hereditary Chief, or Keyoh Holder.

10611. John Dewhirst is a primary anthropologist on the Tsilhqot'in decision. He

spent 19 days in cross-examination in front of Crown lawyers. He's also predominant in -- main anthropologist in nine other court cases and primary anthropologist in Van der Peet; so he's considered by the Courts to be an expert witness.

10612. Keyohs were present at Stewart Lake prior to the first arrival of Europeans

in 1806, and the Keyoh has persisted as the basic economic and political unit of the Stewart Lake Carrier Society to present day, thus the extended family with its Keyoh, is analogous to the traditional houses of the Wet'suwet'en and the Gitsxan.

10613. I think this is significant because there are Court cases -- of course,

Delgamuukw is the leading Court case when it comes to Aboriginal title. And our system is analogous to those systems.

10614. When the Stewart Lake Carrier became involved in the fur trade, the

Keyohs provided fur resources for the extended families and supported trap lines. In 1926, the British Columbia government required that all trap lines be registered, and the Chiefs who owned Keyohs registered them as trap lines. Often referred to as trap lines today, the Keyohs continue to provide traditional game, fish, plant and fur resources for the extended families.

10615. The registered trap line today is 714T008. The Keyohs were basis for

traditional sustenance, economy prior to 1846. They continue as the basis of Aboriginal traditional domestic economy today. The Daiya-Mattess Keyoh is an example of a Keyoh that has operated from at least the 19th century, before 1846, to present.

(A39043)



10616. This is from a January 9th submission by Enbridge, and we just -- I just only just came across this the other day to confirm -- we weren't aware that it was exactly going through the Daiya-Mattess Keyoh, but it does.

10617. This -- if you look at the north arrow on this, the image should be slightly

rotated counter-clockwise, and the Keyoh boundary roughly runs across, like straight across, but the pipeline is actually going through. I'll show you that.

10618. Next slide. 10619. Here's the Keyoh boundary again, trap lines -- commonly referred to as

trap lines today. Up around -- this is Slewgeseh (ph). There's a cabin on this lake here. Dick -- he went up to the main -- another main cabin. There's four cabins on this between his Keyoh that they regularly use. And in a use and occupancy study that Dick did with Terry Tobias in his -- it's published in the book "Living Proof". He said he went across everywhere and used all this area back and forth, even where there was no trails. They used all the land.

10620. And even though if you refer to that text in the book "Living Proof" by

Terry Tobias, in Chapter 4 there's a map. There's heavily used areas here that Dick has recorded, but Dick was the only one that recorded these sites and it was only in just a roughly probably half an hour session because his area was not the focus of that use and occupancy, so it's more to the north.

10621. But it shows an example -- I think what that book does is shows an

example of the extensive use and occupancy continued to today from that area for this particular Keyoh, the Daiya-Mattess Keyoh.

10622. I created this map on Google Earth to do this overlay, and there's a feature

on Google Earth where I can check the elevations. And there's only 13 metres difference, I think, which is interesting, between this point and this point. So what happens with this water body, it's fairly -- not very much elevation change and the water flows. This is an inlet, Satatlo (ph), and it goes outlet here. There's the village site here, pre-contract village site that Daiya would have used. This is one of his main villages.

10623. And -- but Dick's got -- the family's got cabins all over that they use on the

land right now. Of course, they did then, too. 10624. But my point here being is that the water level with 13 metres' elevation

(A39043)



difference is susceptible to impacts. It won't be easily -- if there's ever a spill, it would never be -- it wouldn't be easily cleaned up.

10625. There's a place all along this side of the lake, it's called Yandadee'ach (ph),

and it means "floating ground", and it's habitat for fish and all kinds of animals. Birds nest on it, grebes. There's all kinds of, like Larry was talking about earlier, swans, pelicans. Pulldoos -- they call them pulldoos, and they used to catch them in the nets here. They're -- I think they're called coots, but they set nets for them just above the water line.

10626. Dick did that when he was a kid. All of the families come together and

they do all kinds of traditional activities, including -- and one of the activities was a fall time duck hunt. Spring time they collect eggs, spring beaver hunts, fall beaver hunts, fall moose hunts. All of this is documented a little more detail in the report by John Dewhirst.

10627. It's a picture of Isidore Louie. It's Dick's father. He raised his uncle -- his

uncle, who raised him. 10628. Our tenure has been passed down through generations. 10629. Our genealogy shows Kenny's grandfather and Dick's adopted grandfather,

Isidore Louie, born in 1897, who owned this land. He got it from his father, Louie Mattess, and Louie got it from his father-in-law, Daiya, and Daiya got it from his father-in-law, Natateltet, who owned it and lived before 1846. He lived the same time as Chief Kwa (ph) whose birth dates were recorded from 1755 to 1840.

10630. And the name of the report by John Dewhirst where this is recorded by

him is -- and dated December 31st, 2011 and we submitted that, it's called "The Historical and Cultural Context of the Daiya-Mattess Keyoh, A Family Ancestral Territory, Great Beaver Lake, B.C."

10631. The report details the genealogy and tenure of the Aboriginal rights and

title and is filed as Number A2L7R0. 10632. We also filed a letter from our -- the Indian Act Band Chief, Fred Sam,

and it's filed under A2L7R0, who -- and the letter goes on to say that Kenny is a spokesman and the family is stewards of that land, the registered trap line number.

10633. We also filed a protocol. It's a Keyoh-to-Keyoh protocol, and it's signed

(A39043)



by our neighbouring Keyohs, which shows recognition and respect of each other's title and rights.

10634. Recently there was a Court case by the Wet'suwet'en and they recognized

each other's titles and rights, and that was used as Court evidence. 10635. We also filed a Tribal Council resolution, and the resolution was -- I think

it was October 6th was at the AGM where they adopted this resolution, and the resolution says that Keyoh Huwunliné are the stewards and hold title and rights. Keyoh Huwunliné means the people who take care of the land, the protectors of the land.

10636. THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Munroe, if I could just interrupt you for a

sec. 10637. I was remiss in not dealing with your motion that you filed, and I

understand that the documents you're referring to are some of the documents that you filed in that motion requesting that they be considered as late written evidence.

10638. Am I correct? 10639. MR. MUNROE: That's right. 10640. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you very much. Would you mind

if I just dealt with that now? I should have dealt with it at the beginning, and I forgot to.

10641. Thank you. 10642. So we did receive a motion requesting late written evidence, and some of

the documents you have already referred to were in that motion. 10643. Mr. Roth, has Northern Gateway had an opportunity to review this

information? This is the information that I think we started to think we were talking about before, but we weren't.

10644. MR. ROTH: Yes, indeed, Madam Chair. 10645. We've reviewed the material, and we think it's all relevant and it actually

helps to understand the oral evidence given today, so we certainly have no objection

(A39043)



to any of the material being introduced. 10646. And I believe Mr. Sagalon also indicated that Mr. Dewhirst was preparing

a similar ethnographic study to the one that was prepared for the Daiya-Mattess that will be filed some time later.

10647. But again, if it's of the same nature as this, it would be very relevant to

understanding oral evidence that he provided earlier today. 10648. THE CHAIRPERSON: And are there any other parties who want to

make comments? 10649. Mr. Spencer, this is the time that you wanted to make a comment? Does

your microphone now work? We'll give it a try. 10650. MR. SPENCER: Yeah, this is what I was addressing earlier, is the

additional evidence. 10651. I've been travelling as the Panel has, so I did not have an opportunity to

review the material very closely. I did note the paragraph referring to Crown prejudice, which drew my attention.

10652. I don't see any material prejudice to the Crown to us proceeding today as

we essentially have here. And in light of Mr. Roth's comments, I think any concerns the Crown may have can be dealt with by an application for further evidence -- filing further evidence, if that's required, and we'll make that in the ordinary course if necessary.

10653. So perhaps we'll get appropriate consideration at that time, if it is

necessary, so we're here and we want to hear the evidence. 10654. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Again, I apologize for

the delay in this. I got carried away with listening and didn't do my job on the procedural piece.

10655. But the Panel does accept the late filing evidence and so, Ms. Niro, will

we also be giving this a visual aid number just to be able to track it? No? We'll be dealing with it through the exhibit list?

10656. THE REGULATORY OFFICER: Yes, I would say through the exhibit

(A39043)



list, and this is your ruling also, but I think we're at Ruling 19 right now. 10657. THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, terrific. So the ruling of the Panel is that

we do accept this as late written evidence because of its relevance and ask you to continue on.

10658. And I apologize for the interruption at this point. 10659. MR. MUNROE: Justice Neilson said in -- probably I won't pronounce

this right. This is in Gitxsan. This is a Gitxsan Court case, (native word) versus British Columbia. She said:

"The Crown must consider higher level plans. Ongoing extraction of limited resources from First Nations traditional territories represented a potential significant infringement on those Aboriginal interests."

10660. The Daiya-Mattess has an ecosystem force management plan. It's a

stewardship plan that we filed under A2L7R0. 10661. They also said that the -- in this particular house that it requires a level of

deep consultation, a very high level of deep consultation. And our anthropology says that we have a high claim, so I think we're analogous as well to the Gitxsan system and that Court case.

10662. When we did our management plan, they consulted with the family and

took into consideration their values on the land. And it's dependent on use and occupancy of the land, Aboriginal rights dependent on use and occupancy of the land.

10663. And the students at UBC who developed this plan set aside a portion of

this Keyoh territory for protection of habitat for -- so that the family can sustain themselves and continue use and occupancy of their territory.

10664. They don't have rights to go to another territory. They can ask, but they

don't have rights. We don't have rights to go to another territory. Use is by permission, and it's by consent. There are strict rules traditionally about the use of somebody's territory. It's exclusive use and occupancy. And traditionally, trespass is by death.

10665. And there are laws around that. There's terms in our language it’s called

(native word) and (native word) and it means they did --people disappear if they don’t

(A39043)



respect the land and they don’t ask. 10666. So in this plan that the Diaya-Mattess family has adopted, they’ve allowed

a balance of interests. And we understand that the greater society requires needs, but we also require needs. The family adopted this plan formally in a meeting on July 20th, 2011.

10667. The students looked at wildlife. They looked at risks; they looked at

limitations and opportunities. They looked at a management approach and strategy. They looked at the family’s values, the family’s objectives and they looked at indicators and targets which they could balance both the interests of the family and of greater society. And they looked at scenarios and results to come up with a best approach. There’s no perfect approach, but they looked at the best approach, a compromise.

10668. I talked earlier about our Keyoh-to-Keyoh protocol and the respect that we

have for each other, that all the Keyohs around Great Beaver Lake, we all respect each other's territories.

10669. Dick is the boss of his Keyoh and he makes decision with the rest of his

family. The main objectives of the plan are to protect aquatic ecosystems, restore wild life habitat. There’s been a lot of disturbance to the Keyoh already.

10670. I don’t know how much -- what the volumes of the -- how much has

already been disturbed through clear-cut logging, but it’s gone through extensive clear-cut logging and our plan is mostly about how to rehabilitate the land so that we can continue to have some form of intact ecosystem for future generations, children and grandchildren. We have that right.

10671. So the plan looks at protecting our culturally significant areas and values,

so roughly half of the Keyoh is -- that the family has adopted as -- to be this culturally significant area.

10672. Wildlife is one of the main objectives of the plan. The culturally

significant species are moose, beaver, wolverine, caribou, sand hill crane, fisher and American white pelicans.

10673. Fisher are a blue-listed species. Other species are black bear, white-tailed deer, mule deer, common night hawk, rusty black birds and muskrat. There’s all kinds of animals and they're all part of an ecosystem.

(A39043)



10674. And we're concerned about cumulative impacts, not just from the pipeline, but all of the impacts from the roads. And this study that we did, that we submitted, it took into consideration the amount of disturbances that have already been -- happened on the land.

10675. There’s the railway. There’s roads that go through the territory, just

hundreds of kilometres of roads, and our sustenance is dependent upon -- largely upon large game animals. And the statistics show that 90 percent of large game animals are killed within half a kilometre of right-of-way of a road.

10676. And there’s a section in the plan that looks at that and describes that more,

and it shows visually how much area is left. And another right-of-way through our Keyoh would not be acceptable in the present form of an Enbridge pipeline.

10677. This next slide just shows the blue-listed and -- some of the blue-listed

species, special concern species from our Keyoh. 10678. The species are all integral to that particular area of land. And I heard

some people say that, you know, it's part of -- this is part of the environment. Everything is there for a reason in that area.

10679. I’ve heard some people say they don't think that -- they think that we live outside of the environment or something, you know. But this is where we get our food from, and everything is inter-connected and it’s all dependent upon each other.

10680. Some of the risks are global warming, risks to our Keyoh. Increased water

temperatures, water flows. These are disturbances to the land from impacts of clearing the land, and definitely another right-of-way would have impacts.

10681. There are ecological threats, pests and disease. And when the ecosystem

is weakened -- when we create disturbances, the ecosystem is weakened and things go out of whack.

10682. We have stories that we were taught from when we were small youth,

children. And they talk -- they're legends, but they're true to us and there are transgressions that happen and if we take too much from the land, bad things will happen, we're told.

10683. The students looked at the Enbridge pipeline as a risk. There’s risks of

spills, there’s risks of the right-of-way clearing. There’s anthropogenic use of right-

(A39043)



of-ways. We’ve talked about how right-of-ways create disturbance and other users, other actors use those -- use those right-of-ways.

10684. The railway already runs through the Keyoh. There’s already a high level

of disturbance from roads. 10685. There would be herbicide use along the railway and forestry is using it

already. These are all cumulative impacts. I don’t know what the -- how they would propose to maintain a right-of-way if they would use herbicides, or other roads to go up and down the pipeline route. No doubt, they would have to do some of those activities.

10686. But there are opportunities with this plan that we’ve submitted. The plan

doesn’t include the Enbridge pipeline but there are still opportunities for greater society that benefit from use of our Keyoh.

10687. We’ve set aside part of our Keyoh as a carbon sequestration area. That

part that we’d be able to -- that we would retain as -- for our use and occupancy could be used as a carbon sequestration area and revenue can be generated from that area. I think the number was $18 million that would be generated if that area was set aside for carbon credits.

10688. We’re not interested in the money we’re just interested in production of

our Keyoh for our family. 10689. Our plan also looks at harvesting in the future a certain part of -- to the

north and to the east of Salmon River, which we allot to set aside, but it also incorporates some intensive silviculture and some road deactivation and higher levels of buffers to create habitat or prevent fragmentation of the forest for future generation.

10690. Our family are people who depend on our Keyoh for our survival and our

rights must be protected. 10691. MR. SAM: Thank you, Jim. 10692. Just a final thought. From Daiya-Mattess Keyoh to Kitimat, the majority

of First Nations people are against this pipeline. 10693. Thank you. Thank you very much.

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--- (Applause/Applaudisement) 10694. MS. SAM: I just want it recorded that the map that was done by Julian H.

Steward, he got the stories from my grandfather, Chief Louis Billy Prince, and Thomas Cho (ph). Thomas Cho was Thomas Julian. They verbally gave all that information to him.

10695. Thank you. Masi. 10696. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for clarifying that information. 10697. Does that conclude the Daiya-Mattess Keyoh panel? Terrific. Thank you

very much. 10698. I’m going to suggest that we take a short break and then we will come

back with the Métis Nation of B.C. 10699. So it’s 20 to 11 -- 25 to 11 now. Let’s come back at 10 to 11. 10700. Thank you, everyone. --- Upon adjourning at 10:33 a.m./L’audience est suspendue à 10h33 --- Upon recessing at 10:52 a.m./L’audience est reprise à 10h52 10701. THE CHAIRPERSON: We’re ready to get underway. Thanks,

everyone. 10702. Mr. Ducommun, I see you’re already seated at the table representing the

Métis Nation of B.C., I understand? 10703. MR. DUCOMMUN: That’s correct. 10704. THE CHAIRPERSON: And you can confirm that you remain under

oath from your previous appearances? 10705. MR. DUCOMMUN: I can confirm that. GARY DUCOMMUN: Resumed

(A39043)

Métis Nation of BC - Oral presentation Mr. Gary Ducommun


10706. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Ducommun. 10707. I think we’re ready to proceed. Thank you. --- ORAL PRESENTATION BY/REPRÉSENTATION ORALE PAR MR. GARY DUCOMMUN: 10708. MR. DUCOMMUN: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to be

here. 10709. I would like to first acknowledge our First Nations cousins, and I say

“cousins” and I’ll explain a little bit during my presentation why I acknowledge the First Nations of this area in that way. We are in their territory, in the traditional territory. Métis are relative newcomers to this area, having been here only for about 206 years, according to documented history.

10710. So Fort St. James celebrated in 2006 its 200th anniversary and I know that

a lot of the celebration focused on Fort St. James being the oldest non-Aboriginal community in British Columbia. I would just like to note that Fort St. James is also the oldest Métis community in British Columbia.

10711. We know that, when Simon Fraser came to this area in 1806, he had a

number of Métis with him. They’re described as his men or his servants, depending on which documents you read, historic documents. And we know that those men included the Boucher brothers, Paul and Jean-Baptiste, they included names like Blais, McDougal, St. Pierre, Saucier and Lalonde, amongst others.

10712. We know that Fraser was with the Northwest Company, one of the two

largest fur trading companies at that time, and that they came here to trade furs. They settled here on the shores of Stuart’s Lake. Stuart was Fraser’s second in command at that time and that’s where the lake gets its name.

10713. But they settled here for a fort because this was an Aboriginal community,

this was a First Nations community, and my understanding that it was primarily a fishing community at that time but there was an aggregation of people here who would be trade partners.

10714. The Hudson Bay Company took over the fort in 1821. The Hudson Bay

Company and many other places in Western Canada traded out many of the old

(A39043)



Northwest Company people with their own, but in the case of Fort St. James they didn’t do that. They, in fact, kept a lot of the Métis people here who had been here since Fraser’s time.

10715. And we know, for instance, that Jean-Baptiste Boucher ended up dying

here in 1849 after having retired from the Hudson Bay Company and lived the rest of his life here. And actually, it’s a sad -- it was a sad day upon his death because he and his son both died the same day -- one of his sons -- because of a disease outbreak that took a lot of peoples’ lives during that period.

10716. We know that Fort St. James was rebuilt in -- a number of times, but it

definitely was rebuilt in 1888 by the person who at that time was in charge, the chief trader here. His name was A.C. Murray. A.C. Murray was Métis.

10717. In fact, the historic site, National Parks has restored again, more recently over the last 20 years, the fort, and it’s now a national historic site under Parks Canada, and the configuration that they restored is called the “Murray Configuration”. So they restored it essentially to around the 1880s/1890s configuration.

10718. Parks Canada, up till about three years ago, didn’t recognize Murray as

Métis and their reason was, it turned out, that they knew he had a college degree and that Métis couldn’t have had college degrees in the 1800s, they were just servants.

10719. We’ve worked with the University of British Columbia and Parks Canada

and we’ve educated them over the last three years and, now, the Murray Configuration and Murray House -- which is the officers’ house at the site -- are in fact acknowledged as Murray’s contribution and the fact that he was Métis.

10720. Murray’s wife was also Métis. She was a “Bird” and I’ll talk a little bit

more about “Birds” in a minute. The Murray configuration of the Fort is called “Red River Construction” and during the time, during that time, in 1800s, Red River was a Métis community and it’s a particular style that is seen elsewhere, including places like the church at Batoche and Louis Riel’s home. So it’s a classic; possibly not entirely Métis-used construction method but certainly one recognized as Métis.

10721. So that’s kind of the background. 10722. We have interviewed Métis in the Fort St. James area around the Enbridge

pipeline. We’ve also had one meeting here where we invited Enbridge to come and

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explain their project and to answer some of the -- some of the concerns that came out of -- out of our interviews with Traditional Knowledge holders.

10723. Since the last time that I spoke to the Panel, which was in Prince George

10 days or so ago, I have received a number of e-mails and a number of calls indicating that Métis Nation B.C.’s position is not strong enough, that we might be sitting on the fence and not either -- either saying that we support or that we oppose the Enbridge project.

10724. And to that, I would say we are in an information-gathering phase. It is the

intent of the leadership of Métis Nation B.C. to come out with a position in their March Métis Nation Governing Assembly and that it would be presumptuous of me to get out ahead of our political leadership.

10725. However, it’s clear to me that, having interviewed Traditional Knowledge

holders -- 87 we interviewed -- and having a multitude of other discussions, several meetings at communities across the pipeline corridor, talking to people, Métis, from Queen Charlotte Islands about the potential impacts of tanker problems, it’s clear to me that the people who rely on natural resources, fish, wildlife, berries, medicines, those resources from the land to maintain their culture within Métis Nation B.C. are very very, very concerned about this project going forward as proposed.

10726. I had an opportunity to speak to a couple of our Métis, our local Métis

people before I came up and I’ve got a couple of quotes. One is:

“What did we do to have this project come to our area?” 10727. And I don’t think that was a positive quote. I think that was clearly meant

to encourage me to say that that Métis person is not in support. 10728. Our Elder told me that:

“There’s lots of promises of benefits but we don’t believe that benefits are going to come to our community or to our area or to British Columbia from this pipeline; but we do believe that all of the risks will come here.”

10729. So those are the kinds of concerns that Métis people have told us. Those

are the kinds of concerns that will partially inform our leadership when they make their decision and, personally, I can tell you that I have not spoken to a single Métis who is in favour of this project going forward at this point.

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10730. I want to speak to, I guess in a way, what could be call my “personal

connection” to this area and I indicated that I would call First Nations “my cousins” here and the reason for that is that my grandmother was a “Bird”.

10731. “Bird” is a large Métis family name that originated in the 1700s. Her

cousin came to Fort St. James in about the 1860s. We’re not really sure what the date was. We know that he shows up in an 1881 census with, I believe, it’s nine children from his marriage to Marie Boucher who was a granddaughter of Jean-Baptiste Boucher who came with Simon Fraser in 1806.

10732. The “Bird” family still exists in the Fort St. James area and they are

primarily within the First Nations here. And it’s certainly part of the reality of Aboriginal life that government requires people to identify as one or the other but the reality is that there are people who have Status Cards who live in this area who are part of the First Nations who are also descendants of the same family that I descend from. So I would call those people “my cousins”.

10733. And that’s the Cree way. My mother was a -- or my grandmother was a

Cree-speaker. Her first language was Cree. So in the Cree way, you have grandparents, you have Elder relatives which can be a brother or a cousin or second-cousin. There’s no differentiation. And that’s the way my “kohkom”, my grandmother, taught me was that we respect our relatives no matter who far removed they are as an Elder male relative, for instance.

10734. So specific community concerns here, Métis Community Concerns: The

Stuart River. I’m fairly sure that the Panel probably came into Prince George and drove in. You would have driven across the Stuart River Bridge.

10735. The Stuart River is likely one of the most -- furthest upstream Sockeye

Salmon runs. The Stuart River Sockeye have for quite a number of years -- I would say even a few decades -- been a real management concern for Department of Fisheries.

10736. There are a lot speculation why the Stuart River Sockeye runs are not

returning the way that they did, say, 50 years ago and, of course, people point fingers wherever they go: The commercial fishermen say it’s the Aboriginal fishermen, the Aboriginal fishermen say it’s the commercial fishermen.

10737. You know, ecological groups say it’s forestry or it’s mining or it’s the

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pulp mills. The fact -- the reality of the fact is that it’s probably a little of all of those things, that it’s the cumulative effect. You’ve heard that word already. I heard from the last speaker: It’s cumulative effect of human activities on those fish.

10738. Early Stuart Sockeye and Summer Stuart Sockeye, there’s two kind of

differentiated runs that, really, the only difference is the timing when they come into the river.

10739. They are critically important to Aboriginal people of this area. They are

significantly important to Aboriginal people along the whole length of the Fraser River because they’re the first fish that come in. My understanding is that there has not been a Fishery-targeted to the Early Stuarts, in particular, for quite a number of years.

10740. So it’s a stock that’s already impacted significantly and the impacts,

depending on what you believe are the impacts, they can all be traced back to activities and projects that have been authorized by government permit.

10741. And so, I would just ask the Commission to really consider the fact that

there has been no cumulative effects analysis of the pipeline on specific things like Stuart River Sockeye, for instance; that those kinds of impact assessments should be considered before decisions are made and the reality is that, if there was a spill at the Stuart River crossing of the pipeline, there’s really no modelling -- that I’m aware of anyway -- that would show us what potentially would happen from a small, medium or large spill into the Stuart River.

10742. There’s a couple of really sensitive times for Sockeye: one is upstream

migration of adults and the other is downstream migration of juveniles from Stuart Lake to the Pacific Ocean and, should a spill occur and contaminate the water at those times, it would behove us to know what -- what the best science would predict the outcome to be of that kind of a catastrophe on those stocks.

10743. There are -- there was other concerns raised. There was concerns around

trapping. There was concerns around wildlife and creation of new access. 10744. I spoke at Smithers and I'll speak again -- and one of the speakers that

went before me noted it as well -- is that whenever you create new access, particularly for large mammals -- moose is a good example -- you actually -- we call it “mining”. You actually mine out the moose within a certain distance of that new access. And our friend this morning said -- I believe said a half a mile or half a kilometre. One or

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the other. 10745. And it's true; the new access will create additional pressures on species

such as moose in this area. 10746. Fur bearers. Fur bearers came up. The reason that Métis came to Fort St.

John -- sorry, Fort St. James. I'm going to Fort St. John tomorrow, so if I make that mistake, please note for the record that I mean Fort St. James. Métis came to Fort St. James primarily because of beaver.

10747. Beaver was the hot trade item during that period of the fur trade history,

and beaver will live in every one of the watersheds that this pipeline crosses. If they don't live there today then it's a potential habitat tomorrow; but only if it's in a relatively pristine state.

10748. I don't think anybody along the way has talked about the biodiversity.

Everybody seems to talk about the high topic items, you know, the fish resources or the big game or those things that we rely on for food but we have to realize that the ecosystem we live in also includes those smaller animals, fur bearers.

10749. It includes the plants, the fauna. It includes the -- you know, the insects,

you name it. And the reality is that we don't, at this time, know what a spill might do to any of those parts of that ecology as well.

10750. Just one more note on cumulative effects. There is, in fact, models out

there. We know that there has been a cumulative effects model developed for the oil sands, and it's a model that has input from everything from government to industry to Aboriginal groups, environmental -- ENGOs and it's showing some promise in being able to bring people together to understand the issues around what effects -- what the effects of the project along with all the other impacts that have already been created will be. And that's what we need to know.

10751. We need to know -- you know, it's not good enough to know that this

project can technically be built. It's not good enough to know that this project, technically, can be operated without a spill. What we really need to know is, if there is an accident, what happens then? What is the potential impact and what is the process to deal with that accident?

10752. And we need to understand that as a society. It's not good enough for

Enbridge to know it, for the Panel to know it but for nobody else to know it. So I

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guess that's my point on that. 10753. I'm probably into my 15 minutes already; aren't I? 10754. So I guess just in closing, I'd like to indicate that Métis Nation B.C. does

not support the project. 10755. At this point, Métis Nation B.C. does not oppose the project, but that that

is a balance that will be settled in March. And it's my intent that -- we know that the Panel is meeting after that meeting of our Métis Nation Governing Assembly -- that we would have the official position of Métis Nation B.C. at that point.

10756. But just finally, that Traditional Knowledge holders, traditional land users

within the Métis Nation feel that the project as proposed will damage the resources that they depend on for their culture and that that damage will or could lead to loss of cultural learnings, cultural teachings in the future.

10757. Thank you. --- (Applause/Applaudissements) 10758. THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Ducommun. 10759. I'd just remind you as you go forward with your presentations that we are

concentrating on the oral evidence piece, the oral Traditional Knowledge, and thank you for sharing the Traditional Knowledge that you shared today.

10760. That concludes our community hearing in Fort St. John -- excuse me.

You’ve got it in my head. Thank you, Mr. Ducommun -- in Fort St. James today. 10761. On behalf of the Panel, I want to thank everybody who have attended,

particularly those who spoke to the Panel. It was very helpful to the Panel, and we appreciate you taking the time and coming to speak with us.

10762. And so with that, I'll close this session. Safe travels, everyone. Thank

you. --- Upon adjourning at 11:13 a.m./L’audience est ajournée à 11h13

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Documents

JOINT REVIEW PANEL FOR THE ENBRIDGE NORTHERN … · joint review panel for the enbridge northern gateway project commission d’examen conjoint du projet enbridge northern gateway