7

Ardis Wheeler

Narrator

Rhoda R. Gilman Interviewer

April 5, 1990

At Ardis Wheeler’s home

St. Paul, Minnesota RG: As I recall, Ardis, Bob Wheeler was hired as assistant director of the Minnesota Historical Society in 1957. Could you tell me something about his early life? What trail brought him to that place in that time? AW: Well, he was always interested in history. As a child living in Columbus, Ohio, he was much exposed to early Adena culture, and he loved to go to the museums and browse around. And, actually, it was a very interesting thing, kind of a Horatio Alger event that brought him to the first in the chain of events of his history career. He was in a senior class play at South High School in Columbus, and he decided he wanted to do some research on the Copperheads. And so he was working very diligently in the library, and an elderly man, who turned out to be kind of a co-director of the Ohio Historical Society, saw this young man pouring over books and manuscripts and he was very impressed with his studiousness and how serious he was. And so he watched him for a while, and then he went up to him and said, “Who are you and why are you here?” And so Rod explained--Rod is “Rod” in Ohio and “Bob” here--and Dr. Lindley said, “I’m very impressed with your attitude toward history,” and “what are your plans?” And Rod said, “Well, I’m going to go to college and major in history and geology.” And so Dr. Lindley said, “Well, when you are ready for your first position, will you come and see me? You are someone that I’m impressed with.” And so Rod did, and got his dual degree and went to see Dr. Lindley. And he placed him with the Ohio State Journal first until something opened up in history at the Ohio Historical Society. And so Rod’s first position was he was in charge of an indexing project for the Ohio State Journal. And it was a year then before something in history opened up, and that was with the

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Ohio State School for the Blind, where he was in charge of reproducing exact replicas—to the measurement of each stair step or whatever—the great historic buildings, not only in the United States, but like the Taj Mahal and so forth, so that the blind children could see through feeling. And I think that was really a motivating force in his becoming interested in artifacts, too. RG: Yes, that certainly makes sense. Now this was right after Bob was out of college? AW: That’s right. RG: Was this before World War II? AW: Yes, before World War II. Yes, in 1939. RG: I know he did lengthy service during World War II, and I was not quite clear whether this was before or after. AW: Yes, that was before. In 1939 he was with the Ohio State Journal. RG: So he really started right out in history. AW: Right out. Right out in history. RG: In what we now call public history. AW: Yes, that’s right. And he always liked the human element, and I think that was reinforced with his work at the Ohio State School for the Blind, because it was human in so many ways. And he loved seeing the blind young people become excited about history and hands-on. Of course, literally, they had to have hands-on in order to see, and he always believed in the hands-on approach to history, personalizing it, bringing it to the people, and that was a very strong influence with him. RG: I guess I always think of Bob, his approach to history, in some ways being outdoor history. He was very much an outdoorsman. AW: Yes, he was. RG: Now my recollection is that he once mentioned that his family had spent summers up on the border lakes in Minnesota? AW: Yes. And before that, at the Forest Primeval in Wisconsin. They took summers off, and

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his father had a large rural bread route selling Omar Bread. This was before the days of limiting a salesman’s territory and so forth, and so he could range as far as he wanted. And so he provided enough wherewithal for the family so they could take the entire summers off and vacation in Wisconsin, and later in Minnesota where his brother Lou located. RG: Yes. Now his brother Lou has a resort on Crane Lake. Is that correct? AW: No, not a resort. He was a wilderness guide, a pilot guide, for a number of years, and then he had a mobile home park on the lake for sportsmen. But he is now retired. RG: But that was really his life work? AW: That’s right. And he is also very interested in history, but, again, outdoors is a great love of both Lou and Rod. RG: I remember Bob telling me quite a few stories of his service during World War II, particularly the friends he made and the acquaintances in Europe during his service there. Could you just briefly review where he served and some of his memories of it? He was a great storyteller. AW: Yes. Before World War II, he was asked to serve as head of the newspaper library at the Ohio State Historical Society. So he left that position, then, when he was drafted and went into the service. He was shipped overseas after his basic training and served first in France, where he made his dearest friends because he was there the longest. His friends, the Margins, are still our friends, although Monsieur Margin is now dead. But they took him on like a son and had him with them for the holidays and birthdays, and he came to love these people; we have gone back to visit the Margins. And he made many friends throughout the countryside, because when he had time off, he loved to take a sketch pad and some pastels and go out in the countryside and sketch, and people would be drawn to this soldier standing there sketching, would strike up a conversation, and he would be delighted. And then they’d say, “Won’t you come in for a cup of tea?” or whatever, and he made many friends that way. RG: I never realized that Bob had an interest in drawing and art. AW: Oh, yes. I can show you later some of his fine watercolors. RG: That’s something he kept very quiet about. AW: Yes, very, very quiet. He was very talented. He served with the camouflage battalion,

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and they were all artists and he was the only amateur artist, so he was with artists from Harper’s Bazaar and Atlantic Monthly and the great magazines. And, of course, everyone is very democratic in such an army society, and they’d all go out sketching. And he said, “I had a lot of free lessons from people like Bill Dietrichson,” who’s well known in the Twin Cities, and so that was a great joy to him. And in time when he was stationed in North Africa, he was in charge of a camouflage operation to divert the Germans from--the Nazis--from where the invasion really was coming from. They built an entire fleet--invasion fleet, dummy fleet--in North Africa, and Rod’s outfit would carefully camouflage this dummy fleet and elaborate security operations to hopefully to deceive the Germans, because the invasion, of course, came from England. So they all made use of their artistic talents. In that way, it was rather crude art, but, anyway, it was a camouflage battalion. And then after the fall of Germany, he was stationed in Germany. Contrary to regulations, he did fraternize a bit with the German families, because he came to make friends with them, also. And they were billeted in a very fine home. He always felt very sad that the fine family who owned that home were stationed in a few rooms in the basement. They were quartered, and here the American Army took over the rest. So he expressed his concern for them and so they’d sneak him up fine cookies that they had baked or a piece of cake or whatever. That was against regulations, but his concern for people came first. RG: Bob always seemed to have a real knack for making friends. Knack, perhaps, is not the right word. Part of it came from his real interest in people. AW: Yes, that’s right. RG: Now during the war, were you and Bob married at that time? AW: Yes. RG: You were married before the war? AW: Yes. We were married in 1939. RG: I see. Well, then, you were a temporary war bride, widow, whatever. Those were a long four years. AW: Right. I was at the Ohio State Historical Society during part of that time working with Dr. Lindley, the man who had his eye on Rod when he was a senior in high school, and then moved on to the Institute for Education by Radio-Television for three years at Ohio State

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University while he was away. So it helped make the years go fast. But we wrote daily, and I have the entire file of letters. He kept them, sent them back, and I have his. RG: Then after the war, he came back and returned to the Ohio Historical Society? AW: Yes, that’s right. In the same position, as head of the newspaper library. Then the Ohio Sesquicentennial came along, and they asked him to more or less direct that, and that was in 1953. Then after the Sesquicentennial was over, they created a special position for him. I suppose field representative would be this, because the newspaper library position had been taken care of elsewise. And so he became field representative and traveled all over the state of Ohio—which he loved doing, because, again, he would be working with people and finding tools. He’d bring the mountaineers, who were still making baskets the old way, from southern Ohio, from the foothills of southern Ohio, to demonstrate at the Historical Society. And, again, at the state fair, the Ohio State Fair, similar to the situation of Bill Hafeman here. And he was always interested in people and locating, oh, such like old doctor’s offices and old barber shops. Now they have a pioneer village newly constructed in Ohio and newly reassembled and recreated, and I often wondered how many of the blacksmiths shops that he found— RG: —how many of the artifacts were those that Bob collected. AW: That’s right. RG: So when he was with the Sesquicentennial Commission, he was on leave from the Historical Society? AW: Yes, but still a state position. RG: A field position? AW: That’s right. RG: I recall that Arch Grahn mentioned that he was the head of the Ohio historic sites system when Arch first met him. Is that- AW: Yes. Well, as I say, the title that comes closest to what he did was field representative, but, as I remember, there was no other historic sites person. So I suppose that’s accurate.

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RG: So then he actually was with the Ohio Historical Society for ten or twelve years before he came to Minnesota. AW: That’s right. RG: Arch claims responsibility for having suggested him to Russell Fridley. AW: Yes. And I believe that they were at some national conference, perhaps the American Association for State and Local History. RG: Yes, something like that. AW: Where Arch saw Rod, and then when there was an opening here, he suggested Rod to Russ. RG: During those early years--actually, Bob started here about six months before I did. AW: Oh, I was wondering about that this morning. RG: I started in February of 1958. I believe he started in September ‘57. AW: That’s right. RG: And so Bob was fairly new at that time, too. I’m just wondering. Did the Wheelers and the Fridleys see a good bit of each other in those early years? AW: Yes. It was really interesting. Rod was interviewed. We had a week’s vacation as it happened, and Rod had no idea that the position would be offered. So we spent our week’s vacation up here, because this was my home and we always vacationed here. Arch, at the time he suggested Rod, I don’t believe had any idea that we had these fond Minnesota connections. Rod was interviewed for the position on Monday of our vacation week, and Tuesday evening the Fridleys had us out for dinner and Russ offered Rod the position. Then we thought, “Well, we must take the rest of the week to try to find a house, because we can’t afford to take another vacation.” And so we buzzed around, courtesy of Arch Grahn, who knew the Rehnberg Realtors, and they took us around to one house after another. So by Friday, we had bought a home here. And Arch was telling us that Russ was the youngest historical society director in the nation and that Russ had asked Arch what he should do to save money because he had a huge loan to pay off from his Grinnell [college] years.

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RG: His graduate work. AW: That’s right. And he had to pay off that loan, and what was Arch’s advice? And he said, “Don’t buy a car.” Well, then, we were kind of chauffeurs for Russ and Meta until they owned a car. It was a wonderful experience, because we didn’t live too far and we’d buzz over and pick them up and bring them home, and so it made for fine conversations. So it was a contact that came about in that way, and we felt very fortunate. RG: And you were both people that had young families at that time? AW: That’s right. RG: My memories of those early years are of a really very close teamwork and close relationships between Bob and Russell. AW: Yes. Rod was always very fond of Russ and appreciated the fact that Russ allowed Rod to operate in rather a free way following his interests and his strengths, rather than limiting his responsibilities in such a restrictive way that perhaps Rod would be functioning in areas which weren’t so close to his heart as some other areas. And Rod always appreciated that about Russ, among many other things. RG: As all of us did. AW: That’s right. RG: Reviewing the various things that Bob did at the Historical Society, I have been doing a little research into the records myself so that I can put the stories together and remember the years and so on. In 1957 the—of course ‘58 was the statehood centennial years—and in 1957, as I recall, the legislature appropriated money for a tour program for the Historical Society. Did Bob get responsibility for that right away? AW: Yes, right away. RG: That was my impression, but I couldn’t— AW: And his feeling was that the tours had been limited strictly to Minnesota, and he felt that was too provincial. And he wanted to expand the tour program, not only nationwide, but abroad. RG: In looking through the record, it seemed to me that probably from 1960 on until—let’s see, 1965, when the first trip to Europe was made—

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AW: Yes. RG: —there was a steady expansion: trips to Canada, trips to Wisconsin and Michigan, out beyond the borders of Minnesota. But 1965 was the first to Europe. That was the first Scandinavian tour. I recall my mother—that was her first tour with the Society. AW: He was very fond of the tour program, and the people he met, some of whom became very close friends. RG: He had a whole coterie of followers who always took the tours if Bob was leading them, as I recall. AW: He was always very admiring of the stamina and the courage of many of the tour-takers who were retired, and many of them were elderly, but they’d get very excited about “When’s the next tour going to be?” and so forth, and so there was a fine relationship that developed. RG: Yes. And eventually—I was familiar with that, because my mother became part of that group. But there were others, also. Many of them were Society members of the council who enjoyed the tours. Some of those, as I recall, Curt Roy— AW: Curt and Joanie Roy. RG: Curt and Joan Roy. Did the Dunsworths go on any of the tours? AW: Yes. The Dunsworths and—who was the [author of] Murder in Minnesota? RG: Walter Trenerry. AW: Walter Trenerry and his wife. RG: That’s right. AW: And the Fritsches. RG: Oh, that’s right. The Fritsches. Did the Savages go on this? AW: Yes, the Savages, also. RG: They also went on many of the tours. And more recently, the Petits, Julian and Evelyn

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Petit. AW: That’s right. And Gertrude Fierts from the East, a very distinguished lady. And we have become fast friends since Rod’s death. She is in her nineties, and she often writes about how she regrets that there are no more Arctic tours. This is her favorite part of the world. And we write almost weekly, and she’s a very alert and lively lady. And that was a reward that came kind of tangentially to me because of the tour program, and I just admire Gertrude so much. And I’ve seen her just once when she hosted a dinner here for Rod and me and our family. So that’s a friendship that I treasure and Rod treasured. She’s a lovely lady. RG: You mentioned the Arctic tours. My recollection is that those were some of the most unique and popular of the tours that Bob took. He went to Greenland, Iceland, several times as I recall. I remember the Povungnituk tour. That was in 1967, was that? I can’t recall exactly; it doesn’t matter. There were a number of notable Arctic tours. I know that Bob liked that country. Do you- AW: Yes. And he was very fond of the Eskimo people. He found them very gentle and kind, and became very interested in Eskimo art and collected a number of sculptures, some really representing the early days of Eskimo sculptors who since then have achieved some fame. He has a huge sculpture of the one we always called the “Eskimo God,” which probably isn’t the right name for the sculpture. The Sakasala, or some such name, that’s not quite it. He was a young man, quite a young man, when he did this huge sculpture, the vertebra of a whale. I can show it to you later. RG: I recall he had sculptures. I believe I’ve seen it. AW: Yes. And then he was invited to go to Moscow and demonstrate his art there, so he’s become quite well known. RG: Well, that’s not surprising, since Bob did have such a strong interest in art, that he pursued the collecting some of the Eskimo sculpture. AW: He also met Canadian carvers and commissioned them to do some voyageur carvings and Indian carvings and so forth, so we also have a collection of those pieces. RG: As I recall, he arranged for some of these to be shipped back and sold at the gift shop for a brief time. AW: I believe so. RG: It probably didn’t prove to be worth all of the effort, what with customs and all that.

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AW: Yes, perhaps so. But he did want to share them. RG: Well, another aspect of Bob’s career, and I think the one that most people on the staff are keenly aware of, is the underwater archeology which began in 1960 when Dr. Davis and some amateur divers stumbled on a wonderful nest of kettles. I remember this program being one of the glamour programs of the Society all through the early ‘60s. You stayed home through most of that, didn’t you? Or did you go on any of the diving? AW: No, I didn’t. I would just have kind of an off center—way off center—exposure, like if the divers would start out from Crane Lake, for example, they’d meet at our house and talk over plans. RG: Did you have the place at Crane Lake even then? AW: Yes, from 1966 on. So the divers would meet there and talk over their plans. We might have a meal together and then they might assemble back there and hash over everything afterwards. And, of course, when the film . . . RG: Diving into the Past? AW: Yes. [When it] was made, and some background for the Grand Portage film—oh shoot, what is it called again? They did some of the canoes coming out of the fog right in front of our home. So I would just kind of be a witness to some of these things, but I was teaching then, so my time was pretty well taken up. RG: Well, the underwater archeology program is pretty well documented in the book that Bob did, the written report, History under the Rapids. AW: Voices from the Rapids. RG: Or Voices from the Rapids, I’m sorry. So I don’t think we particularly had, unless you, as you say, had some recollections of that program—I was looking at the Voices from the Rapids the other day and noticed that in 1961, Bob described a diving experience. I understand that he continued diving a little bit himself. AW: Yes. RG: My impression was always that sort of triggered the severe asthma that he- AW: Exactly. He dived until he had this accident, and what exactly prompted that, we don’t

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know. Because he was down only 15 feet, and he knew very well how to come up, very slowly, and was aware of the pressure. But he did come up after one dive, and he was bleeding from the nostrils. And that was the beginning of serious sinus infection which necessitated some surgery. And one surgery led to another surgery, and then there would be complications, and it ended in severe bronchial asthma. But I asked him once, knowing how much he loved the underwater archeology program and working with Walter Kenyon, the Quetico-Superior project, if you had known what was going to happen, would you have gone into the underwater archeology program project? And without any hesitation, he said, “Of course.” RG: Well, that was like Bob. He was a man, as I recall, a man of great enthusiasm. I think part of his charm was his upbeat attitude toward things. AW: And his devotion to whatever he was doing, whatever he was involved in. RG: He had a wonderful approach to life. I think he saw it as a great adventure, and he was willing to take the rough spots along with the better parts. And I think he also saw history as a great adventure. AW: That’s right. And the tour program was called “Adventures in History.” RG: That’s right, it was. I think my own sense is that this is one of the things that drew people to him and made them willing to follow his lead almost anywhere. AW: That’s kind of you to say that. But he was very sincere and unassuming. RG: Yes. It was in 1963 and ‘64 that Evan Hart was hired on the Society staff as our first historic site supervisor. Did Bob have something to do with recruiting Evan for that job? AW: Yes, I do believe so. RG: I thought he did. AW: I do believe so. RG: Evan also was an artist. AW: Oh, a fine artist, and Rod had the greatest respect for him. And Evan Hart was also a close friend of Walter O’Meara. And so perhaps the original connection was made through Walter, I’m just not sure. But Evan Hart was just a marvel in Rod’s eyes, as a human being and as an artist, and Evan was very interested in other people and their careers. And I

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remember he arranged a meeting with Walter O’Meara and our Christy, who was interested in writing, just to see if Walter couldn’t give her some counsel and he wanted Walter to read her things. That’s the kind of person Evan Hart was. He also was very interested in other people. RG: Yes. All of us knew him all too short a time. AW: Oh, I know. RG: He died within a year of his—or slightly less than a year—after he was hired. As I recall, he and Bob and a number of others had just been on a canoe trek across the Savannah Portage. AW: That’s right. RG: And, again, like Bob, he shared the enthusiasm for the out-of-doors. AW: Yes, that’s right. And, yet he had many, many refinements about him. Evan was quite a remarkable man in many, many ways. Rod was scouting a tour in the East, and we were along for part of it; and he always checked in the office regularly to see if there was any news or whatever. And he came back one morning, after going in somewhere to call, and he couldn’t talk; and it was quite a while before he could tell us that Evan had died. And it was a real grief to him. He shed real tears over this. RG: Well, it came so suddenly. I think it shocked everybody, but I suspect that Bob was closer to Evan than any of the rest of us had been. Evan’s father had been very active in history, also. You may not have known Irving Hart. AW: No, I was not aware of him. RG: Had done some early archeological work up at Big Sandy Lake. AW: Yes. They had a cabin there, of course. RG: Yes. And had written it out for Minnesota History. So that was one of the things, I think, that pulled Evan into the field of history, and particularly at that area. Of course, the Savannah Portage was dear to his heart. AW: Yes, that’s right. RG: I recall that June Holmquist and I joined Bob and drove down to Oklahoma.

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AW: I remember that. RG: Our purpose was to visit the University of Oklahoma Press, which was then considered one of the leading scholarly presses, and particularly specializing in western history. June wanted to observe their operation and talk with their director. And there were two candidates—two finalists—for the job of historic sites supervisor that we were to interview in Oklahoma; both of them were from that part of the country, so they were going to meet us in Oklahoma City. The one we decided to recommend after interviewing both of them was Alan Tolbert. AW: Oh, yes. RG: Tall, handsome Texan. AW: That’s right. And he became a pilot, did he not? Or he had been a pilot? RG: He stayed with history for only a couple of years. AW: Yes. He was very engaging. RG: Very engaging, not terribly effective as an historic sites director. AW: But he was immediately winsome. RG: I recall that trip. One of the things that the staff was always very positive about with Bob was that if there was a trip to be taken, they wanted to ride in the car that Bob was driving. Bob was an excellent driver. AW: Yes, he was. RG: Russ came late to driving and was very absentminded. Didn’t really keep his mind on the car very well. Had a disconcerting habit of turning around to talk to people in the back seat. AW: Well, he didn’t own a car, you know, until a number of years after he came to the Society, so he came to driving late. RG: He learned quite late. I well recall him coming to work on the bus when I first started there. But the other possible driver in those days—usually the women didn’t do the driving; the men immediately grabbed the wheel—

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AW: Oh, yes. RG: And the other [driver] was Arch Grahn. Arch was a fast driver. Probably a pretty good driver, but he scared the heck out of people. So everybody wanted to ride with Bob. And I remember that because on the way back, of course, it was February, and we stopped in Kansas City to see the Truman Library. We spent more time there than we planned to, and on the way north ran into an ice storm and had to stop in Lamoni, Iowa. And I recall very clearly the capable, reassuring way that Bob handled that car through some very treacherous ice. As I say, that occurs to me just because it was at that time in 1965 we eventually hired Alan Tolbert. It didn’t work out too well. At that point, the underwater program was sort of at its height, as I recall. Wasn’t there a period of nearly a year or so there that Bob really was in very bad health and wasn’t able to work that much? AW: Well, he continued working. He just would not give up, and I think it sustained him and brought him through some very rough times. But at the worst time, this new medication came on the market, first of all available in England, which our friends the Branstons supplied for him, and then it became available in Canada. So our doctor here gave him a Canadian prescription, which would be filled and then flown to Rod’s brother, Lou, who would then mail it to us or whatever. And it was all done very legally, but it was miraculous; and his health was not restored, but improved. But there was a time when he had a very, very difficult time, and he had to slow up a great deal. But that medication was remarkably helpful, and I’m sure extended his life another 12 years. RG: Well, my impression is that by 1972, ‘73, the underwater program had pretty well accomplished its purposes and was being wound down. From that time on, Bob, the closest thing to his heart, as I recall, was the Forest History Center. AW: Yes. That was a dream. RG: How did he get interested in that? AW: That was a dream that he had. He often talked about this, and, of course, he was always interested in lumbering in Minnesota and he was always interested in people. He became very interested in lumberjacks. They were all vivid personalities. He was hospitalized, and when he lay in the hospital, he was always dreaming. And he had this dream of the Forest History Center becoming a reality. Another dream he had was the Northwest Company Post at Pine City, and I remember him saying, “It’ll be ideal on a Sunday afternoon. It’s not very

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far from the Twin Cities, and families can go out there and look it over and get back to their homes all in one Sunday.” So those were two of his dreams, and the Forest History Center was a big dream. RG: My impression is that he did most of the work involved in laying the foundation for that, acquiring the site from the Blandin Company, and arranging. Bob was, as I recall, a fund-raiser par excellence. AW: Well, he had made a number of friends who were very cooperative, like the Rossmans in Grand Rapids. They were in the newspaper business, and they could spread the word. And so he had a number of contacts who came through. RG: How did he get acquainted with the Rossmans? I know that they had a long association with the council of the Society. AW: Yes. And they also printed Minnesota History News for years. They had the contract for that for years. RG: As I recall, they did that at an especially low rate. AW: Oh, yes. Almost gratis, I think. RG: Another major activity of those last years was working on the films. The logging films that essentially provided an interpretive tool for the Forest History Center, but also helped to make a record of it. Do you recall any stories about those films? AW: From the Bottom Up was the first one. RG: Yes. That was the underwater archeology. AW: Yes. And that helped spread the word, I think, nationwide, really, about what was going on here. Schools still, I understand, often rent that and show it. It’s one of the most popular, and it did bring underwater archeology and scuba diving, as it was called then, to the attention of a lot of young people. Volunteer divers presented themselves just to go on these different trips. They would volunteer their time. So it was a good public relations piece. RG: That’s right. Bob was very skillful at using the interest of people in diving, as I recall. AW: And they paid none of their divers; they were all volunteers. RG: I recall in one case some amateurs followed the publicity about the program, and then

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did their own diving on their own and found some things. Bob heard about it, and instead of coming down on them like a policeman, he went and talked to them and recruited them for the program. AW: That’s right. They also contributed—surrendered—some of their- RG: The things they found. AW: Yes. Their contraband. [Laughter] Yes, he believed in negotiation. RG: The film program brought him into contact with quite a few film people. You’ve mentioned that Slavco Nowytski was a particular friend. I recall, also, the Ramseys, Cille and Tom Ramsey. These all became sort of personal friends, too, didn’t they? AW: Yes, that’s right. RG: And I believe your daughter, Christy, did some of the scripts working for the Ramseys. AW: Yes. And she has just finished one for Slavco. RG: Oh, she’s still working with Slavco? AW: Oh, yes. She still works with Slavco. RG: That’s interesting. How did Bob happen to meet Slavco? Was it just through the film advertising? AW: You know, I am not sure about that. Slavco, of course, had been with CBS [television] for some years and also with CBC [Canadian Broadcasting Corporation], and he’s from the Ukraine. Christy would know more about that, perhaps, than I, and, of course, Slavco would. But they were taken with each other right off. Slavco is a very talented man, and Rod saw that he could fit into the film program very easily because he was so skillful as a producer and a photographer and a director. So he’d had wide experience in his network connections and in Canada, as well, so they worked well together. RG: As I recall, he was with Bob even until some of the later films, like The Last Log Drive on the Little Fork. I can’t- AW: Last of the Jacks. RG: Last of the Jacks. That’s the one that I was trying to think of.

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AW: And Faces of the Forest. He was involved with all of these. Northwest Passage and The Timekeeper. It was the last one, which is the story of the Historical Society and its functions. RG: I recall, too, very vividly all of the conferences, the national and international conferences that Bob helped organize and, in many cases, brought to the Twin Cities. The first, of course, was the Underwater Archeology Conference in 1963. As I recall, you helped edit the papers from that. AW: That’s right. From that first conference. “Diving into the Past” was the proceedings. That was ‘63. There was a second underwater conference in ‘65, and a third one in Miami in '67. Then you mentioned that the program began to wind down, and in 1970 they combined the underwater archeology conference with the Society for Historical Archeology. RG: And that was held here in the Twin Cities, as I recall. AW: Yes, that’s right. And they met jointly from then on, and then in 1973, they met again in ’73—I mean ten years after—so they were celebrating the tenth anniversary of the first underwater conference, again held in St. Paul. And they met jointly with the Fourth International Conference in Underwater Archeology, so it’s kind of a celebrative thing. Ten years we’ve been meeting, but the last years jointly with the Society for Historic Archeology and, later, the International Conference. RG: Well, Bob had a great deal to do with getting those conferences organized, that Society for Underwater Archeology organized. AW: Yes, he did. And the last year, 1985—well, the fur trade conferences, too, were something else. RG: That’s right. Those started in 1965 and continued in ‘70 and ‘78, and then, again, we sponsored one in 1981 up at Grand Portage. Clear memories of that one. AW: Yes, you would. And in ‘85, the last summer that Rod-well, he was in the hospital all of ‘86, but the last summer that he was working at all—he helped a great deal with the conference in Toronto. RG: Montreal. AW: Montreal, excuse me. Yes.

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RG: I attended that one, so I remember. AW: He felt so fortunate to be able to attend because he wasn’t feeling well. But he had worked a great deal with Victoria Stewart, was it? RG: Yes. She was the chair. AW: Yes. And that meant a great deal to him to be in Montreal. The conference and seeing old friends, and whether he had a feeling that he might not see them again, I don’t know. But I remember that conference meant a great deal to him. RG: Well, he got a lot of recognition there. I remember him being piped in to the head table along with all the other notables. AW: I came across some pictures when I was going through some files not so long ago. I put together a book of memorabilia of our years together, and, of course, much of it concerns his career. And I came across pictures I had never seen, he had never shown me, and they’re large pictures. And one of them was of his being piped in. He never mentioned that. Didn’t they come in by canoe? And there was some kind of show, at the beginning of the conference, of transportation. RG: That’s right. He came down the river by boat. AW: Yes, and I came across that. But he never . . . RG: I believe he traveled up and got into the canoe just a few miles above Montreal. AW: For heaven’s sake! Perhaps so. RG: A group of the re-enactors had, I believe, paddled—I don’t know just how far—but a good part of the fur trade route to Montreal, and as they were coming in, Bob joined with them. AW: Yes. That meant a lot to him. RG: And, of course, he did make a lot of friends among Canadian historians and archaeologists. Walter Kenyon, particularly, I recall. Did they actually do any diving together? AW: Oh, yes, they did. And Walter Kenyon was a delightful person and became a close friend, as well as a much respected colleague of Rod’s. He died the same fall Rod did. We

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did not know he was ill. They had a joke between them. When they were being interviewed, Walter would say, “We are the directors of the Quetico-Superior Project.” And he’d say, “I’m Quetico,” and Rod would say, “I’m Superior.” [Laughter] RG: Yes, Walter Kenyon was quite a character. When he was in his cups, which occasionally happened, he could be quite a comedian. I remember he was very fond of singing to the old hymn tune, “Jesus saves, Jesus saves, at the Bank of Montreal.” AW: That’s right, yes. He was a brilliant man, as well. RG: Yes, I’m sure he was. Did Bob ever know Eric Morse very well? AW: Yes. RG: Canoe Trails of Canada? AW: Yes, indeed. And Eric Morse has been in our home a number of times, and we still exchange Christmas cards, his wife and I. RG: And then there were the underwater people. George Bass, who came for the conferences, I recall, became quite a close friend of Bob’s. AW: That’s right. In fact, he invited Rod to become a member of the staff at the University of Texas. I’m sure Rod never mentioned this. RG: No. I had never known that. AW: But George asked him to join the faculty. And Rod deliberated a while, and said, “I can’t leave Minnesota.” So he turned it down. Rod did contribute a chapter to George Bass’s really quite monumental work. RG: Yes, I recall. I can’t remember the name of the title of the book, but I recall the book on underwater archeology around the world. AW: Yes. It was History of Seafaring, based on underwater archeology. RG: And then there was the—I had his name a few moments ago. The Swedish man who was responsible for raising the Wasa. AW: Anders Franzen.

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RG: Anders Franzen. AW: Still a close friend. RG: You people visited him in Sweden after. AW: Yes, twice, and he’s visited here. He’s still active in underwater archeology there. He’s come upon some of the royal ships that went down, and he gets so excited about each find. He is a remarkable man. RG: I remember that Bob was largely responsible, also, for bringing Aslak Liestol from Norway to address our annual meeting, and, incidentally, to pronounce judgment on the [Kensington] Runestone. AW: That’s right. And he was doing research at— RG: Bergen. AW: Yes. And L’Anse Aux Meadows in Nova Scotia. RG: I believe that was someone else. AW: Oh, no. That’s Helga Ingstad. Excuse me, I got them mixed up. Well, they’re both Scandinavians. RG: Yes, very much so. [Laughter] If it was north of here, Bob was interested. I sort of always had that feeling. AW: Yes, that’s right. And, of course, the Montreal merchants’ records, he was very involved in, with— RG: That’s right. With Marie Gerin-Lajoie. How did that come about, do you recall? I am rather hazy on the beginnings of that. AW: Well, I’m a little hazy about it, too, and I know that a big problem that Rod encountered was that everything was in French. RG: Not only French, but archaic. AW: Archaic French, that’s right. But Albert and Marie were friends he had made through some connection in Canada. And he wrote to Marie and Albert and asked if they could help

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translate, and, of course, Marie was delighted to do so. Albert did not live so long after that, but Marie carried on translating. RG: I remember them visiting here at one time. I can’t recall the occasion going through Fort Snelling. AW: Yes, they did. RG: Other people I’m trying to think that I associate Bob with both around the Historical Society and elsewhere are—of course, Curt Roy. Curt went on a number of dives with Bob. AW: Yes. Rod would get such a kick out of Curt because Curt is a very busy and very distinguished gentleman, and he’d say, “Just let me come.” He said, “I can’t dive, but I can cook. I’ll carry, I’ll portage, I’ll do anything if you’ll just let me come.” And, of course, Rod was delighted to have him come along, but he went, I believe, on all the expeditions. RG: Another person I remember was John Rivard. Bob was sort of his patron, in a way. AW: Yes, indeed. John Rivard turned up at the Society and expressed an interest in the voyageurs. And, of course, he had been a Catholic priest and was no longer in the priesthood, and his vivacity interested Rod. So he found a place for him first at the Lindbergh House, and then after his term there, he started going around the state to schools, particularly. And he’s still doing that. He stopped not so long ago. He and Gene are still good friends. RG: And his impersonations of a voyageur and an Indian… AW: And he averages two programs a week, he says, so he’s very busy in his retirement. RG: Some of us at the Society on the staff had some problems with John Rivard’s portrayal of the Indians and voyageurs. AW: Yes. It was more overly dramatic sometimes and not necessarily authentic. RG: That’s right. And I do recall one staff meeting at which he chose to sing the song about the little shoemaker that beat his wife, and a number of us women just about walked out on him. [Laughter] AW: Yes. I heard about that. RG: Another person that I recall, he has a place next to your place at Crane Lake, it’s Dale-

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AW: Morrill? RG: Dale Morrill, yes. Now he’s not directly associated with the Society. AW: But he’s been very, very active in the Society and helped with fund-raising and so forth. He did not have a place at Crane Lake, however, but they would visit us every summer. And they would rent—before we became friends—they would rent a cabin or quarters there on Crane Lake. They liked blueberry picking and quail hunting in the fall and so forth, but after we became friends, then they always stayed with us; they came up every summer. We were fast friends. RG: Did you know them before? Dale Morrill’s wife is John Wood’s sister. Did you know them before that? AW: Not at all. RG: You didn’t know them independently. Because I remember meeting them up there during one of the Crane Lake tours. They stopped by. Bob took us over to show us his cabin, my mother and I, and the Morrills were there, also. AW: Yes. And, of course, Dale’s very interested in history. And they founded the Afton Historical Society and now they live in Osceola, and I’m sure he’s founded an Osceola Historical Society, if there wasn’t one. RG: Can you think of any other particular friends of Bob’s on the staff, or in the council, or around that I have neglected to mention? AW: Doug Burke was a protégé. RG: Right. I remember Bob telling me about him when we were driving down to Prairie du Chien last— AW: Yes. Rod loved him like a son. Doug tells that his interest, his life interest, in archeology was sparked by coming to the conference, the first conference, and decided right then, “This is what I’m going to do with my life.” And Rod has always admired Doug a great deal. RG: This was the first underwater conference? AW: Yes.

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RG: I didn’t realize that he had known Bob from that far back. AW: Yes. From the time he was a high school student. Doug has the same devotion to his work and the same conscientiousness that, I felt, were attributes of Rod’s, and so it was kind of a mutual admiration society between the two. Rod was always interested in young people. He was so interested in bringing history to the people and vitalizing it so that people could not only live history, but relive it. He felt at Ohio everything was encased, and he remembers seeing and hearing his Dr. Lindley, who was a very fine Quaker gentleman, when he’d see little children touching the cannon, he’d say, “Don’t touch. Don’t touch the cannon.” And Rod felt that history should be personalized and brought to the people and they should be allowed to see, and sometimes feel, and have personal experiences with artifacts. RG: We’ve, I think, have neglected to talk about Bob’s involvement with Bill Hafeman and the building of the authentic fur trade canoes. AW: That’s right. It always interested Rod that Bill Hafeman, a white, was so interested in trying to capture the interest of young Indians in their craft which had been lost to many of them. He was interested in training young Indian men and women in their own craft, because he built the canoes just the way the Indians did. And he and his wife would go out into the swamp and get the watap roots, and he built them very authentically. Rod was very impressed with Bill Hafeman and his wife. They worked together so well and were so interested in their craft and wanting to keep it alive, and he has taught a number of young men now who are continuing with the craft. He is still living, but they were in an accident sometime back, and that has slowed him up a great deal. He’s close to 90, I’m sure, but the last time I saw him, shortly before Rod died, he was still very agile, and so was his wife. RG: I know we have a slide series, if not a film, on the building of canoes. AW: Yes. And articles in Minnesota History News and so forth have been given over to Bill Hafeman and his crafters. RG: What were some of the other— AW: He was a founder of Friends of Grand Portage. RG: That’s right. I think maybe that sort of grew out of the fur trade conference at Grand

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Portage. AW: That’s right. It had been neglected, he felt, as a national—what is the status—national- RG: National monument? AW: Yes, national monument. Been neglected, and so he felt that perhaps there was a way to- RG: Bring political pressure. AW: Friends together, yes, and raise funds and bring political pressure, and, I believe, that is still a very active organization, ongoing, and much has been done up there with the great hall and canoes and reenactments and so forth. RG: And then after his retirement, Bob continued. He published, put together, the book Toast of the Fur Trade, again focusing on the art of artistic representation of the artifacts that were associated with the fur trade. AW: Yes, that’s right. And it is now out of print. I sent out the last order a week or so ago. RG: It was always a matter of regret to me that the Historical Society decided not to publish that. AW: Yes. It was a regret to him, too, but it worked out well because it was a retirement project, and he was able to keep his hand in. And it was very interesting to him, and he had so many Canadian contacts who helped publicize. He just learned so many areas of publishing that he knew nothing about, and so it was interesting for him to take it on. So it worked out well. RG: I remember he came in and talked to me about it a number of times, because my office was near his at the Hill House there, and he knew I had worked in publishing. AW: He always had the greatest respect for you, Rhoda. Always did, and felt very warmly toward you. RG: I was always very fond of Bob. Do you plan to reprint the book? AW: I would if I felt as if I had the stamina to do it, but I don’t know that much about advertising—

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RG: Marketing of it is the big thing. AW: Marketing is a big thing. RG: Distribution. AW: Yes. But it may be reprinted some day, but I don’t believe that I’ll take it on myself. RG: Earlier in this interview, we mentioned that you—the Wheelers and the Fridleys—were quite close friends in the early years, because the Fridleys didn’t have a car and you lived nearby and both had young children and so on. You just mentioned that you had all of the Fridley children in school. How did that happen? AW: Well, I think, perhaps, they requested. Parents were allowed to request. By the law of averages, I wouldn’t have had all of them, but I did. RG: You were teaching in Roseville at that time. AW: Yes, that's right. And I enjoyed having the children. And Jane, particularly, was interested in writing, so I also had her in what was called a quest. And Nancy, also, I had in creative writing. And Jane was always—[Tape interruption] RG: When the last tape ended, we were talking about the Fridley children. You were their schoolteacher, all six of them, right? AW: Yes. RG: And you were talking about Jane being particularly dramatic. AW: Yes. And she has married a Salvadoran. RG: That’s what I understand. AW: Yes. And they lived in El Salvador, and they lived four days under a bed because their suburban area was bombed, and recently have come back to escape the… what’s happening in the area there. RG: The civil war, basically. AW: Yes, civil war. And have been with the Fridleys for, I think, three or four months, and hoping to get established permanently somewhere. They’ve gone back now to El Salvador,

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hopefully to bring back—his parents, also, would like to escape the area. So it’s kind of a state of flux, but it interested me because Jane was always dramatic and she always wrote quite dramatically, and then she’s gotten involved in this very dramatic life situation. RG: Rather adventurous. AW: That’s right. So Russ and Meta have been concerned about Jane and her safety and that of her husband and parents-in-law. RG: I get the impression that Jane is particularly close to Meta. AW: I think so. All the children are close to both Russ and Meta. RG: I know over the years many of us on the staff wondered how they could manage. Russ seemed to be so totally absorbed in his work and away from home so much of the time, we wondered how Meta was surviving with the six children at home. There was a joke that used to go around the staff that Russ had a way of turning projects over to people. If you came to him with a great idea for something, he’d say, “Well, that sounds like a great idea. Why don’t you take care of it.” And we had a joke that must be the way it had been with the family. [Laughter] AW: You bring up the children. RG: “Another child sounds like a great idea, Meta. Why don’t you take care of it?” AW: Well, Meta has been a very devoted mother, and has done a fine job of rearing the children, plus indulging her own particular interests. RG: She has, as you mentioned, been very friendly with the Friends of the Library. AW: That’s right. And she reads a great deal, and she’s very interested in world affairs and so is Russ, so I’m sure they have many conversations about what’s happening to this battered world of ours. RG: Did you have Scott in school, also? AW: Yes, I had Scott. RG: He is the oldest, is that right? AW: Yes, he’s the oldest.

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RG: And the only boy? AW: That’s right. RG: We were also going to talk about—we had missed mention of Bob Wheeler’s first book. This was published when he was in Ohio? AW: That’s right. And as head of the newspaper library-which sounds a little bit more impressive as a title than his work actually entailed—he did a lot of climbing ladders to get heavy tomes down for people because they would be newspaper-size. After a while, the climbing of steps to get books down for people lost its, not interest, but its— RG: It’s appeal. AW: It wasn’t so appealing, that’s right. And, again, he was dreaming of a project, and, of course, Ohio is an old state. And so he thought what fun it would be to reproduce the exact pages of the old Ohio newspapers which told of historic events that would be of interest particularly to young people, also adults. To set the context for the whole thing, he reproduced also—and that could be life-size, I mean actual size—the early New England papers, so that the context of where Ohio came in would be clearer. RG: The continuity. AW: Yes, and the continuity. So it is an oversized volume of history as seen through Ohio newspapers. It goes through World War II, and it was a very successful book and used in many schools, high schools and libraries. So that was his first venture. And he always had a way of turning whatever position he had into something more than it was, because he did dream about things to do. And he felt there was no excuse to be bored in one’s position, because you could always make something more of it if you had a vision. RG: Thank you, Arlis, for taking time to talk about Bob today.

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