II. Defendants' Witnesses 1. Cassarino, Craig (Ampenergo, Inc.) 4. Rossi…coldfusioncommunity.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0326.0_IH... · II. Defendants' Witnesses 1. Cassarino,

II. Defendants' Witnesses

1. Cassarino, Craig (Ampenergo, Inc.)2. Childress, Jamie (The Boeing Company)

3. Fabiani, Fulvio4. Rossi, Andrea (JM Products)

5. Rossi, Andrea (Leonardo, Corp.)

Defendants' designations and all corresponding counter-designations, rebuttal designations and

objections.

Provided by Defendants.

Case 1:16-cv-21199-CMA Document 326 Entered on FLSD Docket 06/28/2017 Page 1 of 300

DEFENDANTSDEPOSITIONDESIGNATIONSANDOBJECTIONSFORUSEATTRIAL

IndextoObjections:

A Authenticity EPA ExcludedPursuanttoAgreement LC LegalConclusion ME MisstatesEvidence

AA AskedandAnswered EPO. ExcludedPursuanttoCourtOrder LPN LackofPersonalKnowledge MTMischaracterizesTestimony

Amb. Ambiguous F Foundation NP NonResponsive NR NonResponsive

Arg. Argumentative H Hearsay P Predicate S Speculation

C Compound I Inadmissible Priv. Privileged UP UndulyPrejudicialCOT CounselisTestifying IC ImproperCharacterization R Relevance V VagueCum. Cum. IMP ImproperCounter LC LegalConclusion W ExhibitWithdrawn

EOT ExpertOpinionTestimony L Leading M MisleadingPleasenote:bracketsindicatepartialobjectionstoenhancereadabilityfortheCourt.

I.Witness:Cassarino,Craig(CorporateRep.forAmpenergoInc.)

DefendantsDesignations

PlaintiffsObjections

PlaintiffsCounter

Designations

ThirdPartyObjections

ThirdPartyCounter

Designations

DefendantsObjections

DefendantsRebuttals



CourtsRuling

9:59:1611:1312:315:1117:323:1424:1224:2225:829:1429:2332:2034:1142:1443:1353:653:1857:1357:2360:161:669:570:2276:1677:377:2279:2287:289:994:2295:1095:2197:1498:698:1398:17100:18102:13102:20

15:1916:9R;16:2017:3R;23:1424:12R;32:2034:11R;42:1443:13H;53:618R;57:1323H;60:161:6R,H;87:812R,LC;97:37EOT;102:1820H,EOT;103:1417H;104:4105:7R;107:114H,S;112:21114:4H,R;122:4123:6R,EOT;

23:51034:2035:135:61237:101337:1938:338:111343:141647:11147:1548:1357:1360:2061:41661:1763:963:101564:92165:31066:1468:170:2371:273:21775:1779:2380:16

DefendantsObjectionstoPlaintiffs:23:510IMP34:2035:1IMP35:612IMP37:1013IMP37:1938:3IMP38:1113IMP47:111IMP47:1548:13IMP58:1059:23IMP61:1763:15IMP65:310IMP66:1468:1IMP70:2371:2IMP73:217IMP75:17IMP,C79:2380:21IMP82:711IMP;

DefendantsRebuttalstoPlaintiffs:35:2537:141838:41038:142349:5863:1664:875:876:181:212386:1519105:10106:1112:820118:1218128:1318129:19130:7




PlaintiffsCounter

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CourtsRuling

103:14103:17104:4105:7106:9107:14112:21114:4119:6119:19122:4123:6123:14124:11131:22133:2145:16146:7148:6148:16155:14155:22162:20163:7164:12164:20165:6166:1169:20171:9178:7178:22180:22183:15183:20185:12186:11186:15187:8187:13195:11198:14198:20199:5202:9202:12202:17203:1208:13209:20210:6210:14210:23214:8214:10214:14214:16215:4215:6215:20215:22216:9216:11217:8218:12220:3220:11220:15220:19221:16221:18222:2223:21224:5225:16227:19241:13242:2245:1245:13

123:14124:11R;131:22133:2A,R;145:16146:7A;148:616H,R;180:22183:15R,S;183:20185:12R,S;186:1115A,H,R;187:813A,H,R;195:11198:14A,R;202:912R,P;202:17203:1R;208:13209:20P,S,R;210:614A,P,R;210:23212:12A,R,S;212:13213:3A,P,R;213:4214:8A,P,R;214:1014P,A,R;214:16215:4A,H,R,P;215:620H,P,S;215:20R,S;215:2223R,S;216:11217:8R;218:1623H,

80:172182:71182:1383:786:101387:1289:997:1598:4105:89108:16109:12111:122111:23112:7116:8117:9120:12121:5127:1722128:1921129:418130:816146:819155:23156:10161:613166:22167:11168:36194:19195:10202:1416214:9214:15215:5215:21216:10221:17221:18222:11229:15230:15235:21236:20

82:1383:7IMP;86:1013IMP;97:1598:4IMP;105:89IMP;108:16109:12IMP;111:122IC,IMP;111:23112:7IMP;116:8117:9IMP;120:12121:5IMP,F;127:1722IMP,F;128:1921IMP,F;129:418IMP,F,R,H;130:816IMP,H;155:23156:10IMP,R;168:36 IMP;194:19195:10IMP,R;229:15230:15IMP;235:21236:20IMP




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R;220:1115A,H,P;220:1923A,H,P;221:112H,S,P;221:1316A,H,P,S;221:18222:2A,H,P,S;223:21224:5R;225:16226:23H,R;227:119A,H,R;241:18242:2P


8007267007 3053768800VeritextFloridaReportingCo.

1 (Pages 1 to 4)

Page 1PAGES:1245EXHIBITS:130UNITEDSTATESDISTRICTCOURTSOUTHERNDISTRICTOFFLORIDACASENO.1:16CV21199CMA/O'Sullivan___________________________________ANDREAROSSI,etal.,)Plaintiffs,)vs.)THOMASDARDEN,etal.,)Defendants.)___________________________________)

VIDEOTAPEDDEPOSITIONOFAMPENERGO,INC.BYCRAIGJ.CASSARINO

Thisdeposition,heldpursuanttotheFederalRulesofCivilProcedure,Rule30(b)(6),atNixonPeabody,LLP,900ElmStreet,Manchester,NewHampshire,onThursday,February23,2017,commencingat9:00a.m.

DUFFY&McKENNACOURTREPORTERSP.O.Box1658Dover,NH038211658(603)743494918006001000

Page 21 APPEARANCES:23 PEARLMAN,BAJANDAS,YEVOLI4 &ALBRIGHT,P.L.5 BY:BrianChaiken,Esq.6 283CataloniaAvenue,Suite2007 CoralGables,FL331348 30537700869 [email protected]

10 ForthePlaintiffs1112 MILLERFRIELPLLC13 BY:BernardP.Bell,Esq.14 1200NewHampshireAve.,NW15 Suite80016 Washington,DC2003617 202760315818 [email protected] FortheDefendants20212223

Page 31 APPEARANCES:(CONT'D)23 NIXONPEABODYLLP4 BY:AndrewL.Share,Esq.5 900ElmStreet6 Manchester,NH031017 60362840538 [email protected] ForAmpEnergyandtheDeponent

1011 (ViaTelephone)12 ARANCORREA&GUARCH,P.A.13 BY:FernandoS.Aran,Esq.14 and15 FranciscoJ.LeondelaBarra,Esq.16 255UniversityDrive17 CoralGables,FL3313418 305665340019 [email protected] [email protected] ForThirdPartyDefendants22 JMProducts,Johnson,andBass23

Page 41 APPEARANCES:(CONT'D)23 RODOLFONUNEZ,P.A.4 BY:RodolfoNunez,Esq.5 255UniversityDrive6 CoralGables,FL331437 30544324408 [email protected] ForThirdPartyDefendantFabiani

10 andUSQL1112 ALSOPRESENT:1314 DavidWaldman,Videographer151617181920212223



2 (Pages 5 to 8)

Page 51 INDEX23 TESTIMONYOF:PAGE45 CRAIGJ.CASSARINO67 (ByMr.Chaiken)9,2348 (ByMr.Bell)1619 (ByMR.LeondelaBarra)228

10 (ByMr.Share)23811121314151617181920212223

Page 61 EXHIBITS2 EXHIBITDESCRIPTIONPAGE34 Exhibit1AmendedAgreedNoticeof125 TakingVideotapedDeposition6 Exhibit2AE422.001422.002307 Exhibit3AE538358 Exhibit4IH2152921533429 Exhibit5IH12918243

10 Exhibit6IH1040531040584711 Exhibit7IH1320330515112 Exhibit8IH1040130185413 Exhibit9AE3406614 Exhibit10AE437.001437.0086915 Exhibit11AE4367316 Exhibit12AE255.001255.0027617 Exhibit13AE295.001295.0037818 Exhibit14AE3038419 Exhibit15IH1240790818720 Exhibit16AE304.001304.0029821 Exhibit17IH9096696710422 Exhibit18IH12725625811723 Exhibit19AE632123

Page 71 Exhibit20AE005.01005.0111452 Exhibit21AE3551513 Exhibit22IH1126286291564 Exhibit23IH00284144211785 Exhibit24IH000831611641866 Exhibit25IH000938868901927 Exhibit26AE142038 Exhibit27IH00131061622069 Exhibit28AE000345.001002212

10 Exhibit29JB0001023221711 Exhibit30multipagedocument,USArmy22212 CorpsofEngineers,13 September,201414151617181920212223

Page 81 VIDEOGRAPHER:TodayisFebruary23rd,2 2017.Thetimeis9o'clocka.m.Thelocationis3 NixonPeabodyLLP,inManchester,NewHampshire.4 MynameisDavidWaldman,legalvideospecialist.5 TheCaseNo.is1:16CV21199CMA/O'Sullivan,6 filedintheUSDistrictCourt,SouthernDistrict7 ofFlorida.CaseisAndreaRossi,etal.versus8 ThomasDarden,etal.ThedeponentisCraig9 Cassarino.Thevideodepositionwasrequestedby

10 BrianW.Chaiken,Esquire.11 Counselandallpresentwillplease12 identifythemselvesfortherecord,andthe13 stenographiccourtreporter,JodiOhnemus,will14 swearinthewitness.15 MR.CHAIKEN:Goodmorning,Brian16 Chaiken,onbehalfofPlaintiffs.17 MR.BELL:BernardBell,forDefendants.18 MR.SHARE:Goodmorning.AndrewShare19 counselforAmpEnergo.20 MR.CASSARINO:CraigCassarino.21 COURTREPORTER:Onthephone?22 MR.ARAN:Hello.Yes.Fromthephone:23 FernandoAran,onbehalfofthirdpartyDefendant,



3 (Pages 9 to 12)

Page 91 JMProducts,Inc.,HenryJohnson,andJamesBass.2 MR.NUNEZ:RudyNunez,onbehalfof3 FulvioFabianiandUnitedStatesQuantumLeap,4 LLC.5 CRAIGJ.CASSARINO,having6 firstbeendulysworn,was7 examinedandtestifiedas8 follows9 BYMR.CHAIKEN:

10 Q.Goodmorning.11 A.Goodmorning.12 Q.MynameisBrianChaiken,andI'manattorneyfor13 thePlaintiffsinthiscase.14 Couldyoupleasestateyournameand15 spellyourlastnamefortherecord.16 A.Yes.CraigCassarino,Cassarino.17 Q.Andwheredoyoulive,Mr.Cassarino?18 A.Iliveat30GreenRoad,Amherst,NewHampshire.19 Q.Approximatelyhowlonghaveyoulivedthere?20 A.Fiveandahalfyears.21 Q.Okay.AndIthinkyoumentionedbeforewegoton22 therecordthatyouhadneverbeendeposedbefore;23 isthattrue?

Page 101 A.That'strue.2 Q.Okay.There'safewgroundrulesI'mgoingto3 giveyouforthedeposition.4 A.Okay.5 Q.Ineedyoutogiveanaudioresponsetomy6 questions.Althoughthere'savideographertaking7 avideoofyou,thecourtreportercan'ttakedown8 ashakeofyourheadoranodoralthoughshe9 probablycouldtakeanuhuhoranuhhuh

10 A.Yeah.11 Q.butyouneedtogiveanaudibleresponse,if12 possible.13 A.Yes.14 Q.Ifyoudon'tunderstandanyofmyquestions,I'd15 askyoutotellmethatandsay,youknow,Please16 rephraseyourquestion;otherwise,I'mgoingto17 assumeyouunderstoodmyquestion.18 A.Okay.19 Q.YoumayanticipatewhereI'mgoingwithsomeofmy20 questions,butthecourtreportercan'ttakedown21 ifbothofusaretalkingatthesametime.22 A.Right.23 Q.SoIwouldaskthatyougivemeachanceto

Page 111 completemyquestionbeforeyoubeginyouranswer,2 andI'llgiveyouachancetocompleteyouranswer3 beforeIbeginmynextquestion.4 A.Right.5 Q.Ifatanytimeyouneedtotakeabreak,please6 feelfreetoaskandsay,Ineedtotakeabreak.7 Ifthere'saquestionpending,Iwould8 justaskyoutoanswerthequestionthat'spending9 beforewetakeabreak.

10 A.Yes.11 Q.Fairenough?12 A.Fairenough.13 Q.Okay.Haveyoubeendesignatedasthecorporate14 representativeofAmpEnergo,Inc.forpurpose15 A.Yes,Iam.16 Q.forpurposesofthisdeposition?17 A.Yes.18 Q.See?Youalreadybrokemyrule.You'vealready19 startedtalkingpastmyquestion.20 Letmefinishitfirst.21 Whodesignatedyouasthecorporate22 representativeforAmpEnergo?23 A.AllthepeopleatAmpEnergo.

Page 121 Q.AndwhoareallthepeopleatAmpEnergo?2 A.RobertGentile,RickNociti,RonEngleman,and3 KarlNorwood.4 Q.Andareyouallshareholders?5 A.Yes,weare.6 Q.Areyouequalshareholders?7 A.No.8 Q.Whatwhat'sthedifferences?9 A.RobertGentile,KarlNorwood,andIhaveequal

10 shares,andRickNocitiandRonEnglemanhavea11 lowerpercentage.12 Q.Okay.I'mgoingtoshowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedas13 ExhibitNo.1foryourdeposition.It'sacopyof14 theAmendedAgreedNoticeofTakingVideotaped15 Deposition.16 (Exhibit1,AmendedAgreedNoticeof17 TakingVideotapedDeposition.)18 MR.SHARE:Andjustfortherecord,I19 wanttonotethatwewerenotservedacopyof20 thisuntil10minutesago.21 MR.CHAIKEN:Okay.22 MR.SHARE:Butwedon'tobjecttothe23 videorecordingofthedeposition.



4 (Pages 13 to 16)

Page 131 MR.CHAIKEN:Appreciatethat.2 Q.I'daskyoutoreviewpage9and10.3 And,Mr.Cassarino,hadyoupreviously4 beenprovidedwithanotanamendedagreed5 notice,butapreviousversionofthisthatwas6 A.Yes.7 Q.simplyanotice?8 A.Yes.9 Q.Andhadyouhadanopportunitytoreviewtheareas

10 ofinquiryinthatpreviousnotice?11 A.Yes.12 Q.AndIbelievethey'rethesame,andyouryour13 counselhasandIhavetalkedaboutitpriorto14 gettingontherecord,butIbelievethetopics15 areallthesameinthisamendednoticethatwere16 inthepreviousnotice.17 A.Okay.18 Q.Areyoupreparedtodiscussalltheareasthatare19 listedinthisamendednoticetoday?20 A.Yes.21 Q.Okay.Anddidyoudoanythingtopreparefor22 today'sdeposition?23 A.Yes.

Page 141 Q.Whatdidyoudo?2 A.Imetwithourattorneytogothroughthelistof3 questions.4 Q.Fairenough.AndIdon'twantyoutotellmewhat5 conversationsyouhadwithcounsel.6 Didyouspeaktoanybodyelseabout7 today'sdeposition?8 A.Yes,myotherpartners.9 Q.Andwhatdidyoutalkabout?

10 A.Justgoingthroughthesamequestionsandwhether11 anytheyhadanyinsightornot.12 Q.Okay.Didyoureviewanydocuments?13 A.Yes,wedid.14 Q.Whichdocumentsdidyoureview?15 A.Thelegaldocuments.16 Q.Okay.Andwhenyousay"thelegaldocuments,"17 whatdoyoumeanbythat?18 A.Thelicenseagreements.19 Q.Okay.Anythingotherthanthat?20 A.Well,wewentthroughalloftheemailsandallof21 thatforreviewtogivetoyou.22 Q.Okay.Andwhendidyoudothat?23 A.Amonthago,maybeamonthandahalfago.I'm

Page 151 I'mnotsureexactlywhen.2 Q.Okay.Didyoureviewthecomplaintfiledinthis3 case?4 A.Yes.5 Q.Haveyoureviewedtheansweroranyanyofthe6 versionsoftheanswersanddefensesand7 counterclaimsfiledbythe8 A.No,it's9 Q.bytheDefendants?

10 A.It'sjusttoocomplicatedforme.11 Q.Okay.AmpEnergooftengoesbytheinitialsAEG;12 isthattrue?13 A.Yes.14 Q.SoifIusetheword"AEG,"wouldyourecognize15 thatasmeaningAmpEnergo?16 A.Iwould.17 Q.Okay.Imayusethattoshortenup18 A.Okay.19 Q.mymyquestions.20 WhofoundedAEG?21 A.BobGentile,KarlNorwood,myselfandRickNociti.22 Q.Andwhenwasitfounded?23 A.IbelieveitwasIcan'trecalltheexactdate,

Page 161 butitwasrightafter,probably,2010.2 Q.Okay.Andandwhatwasthepurpose?3 A.TotolicensetheagreementfromAndreaRossi.4 COURTREPORTER:Ididn'tgettheendof5 it.6 A.Yeah,toreviewImean,tolicensethe7 technologyfromLeonardoandfromAndreaRossi.8 Q.Okay.9 A.Itwassetjustforthatpurpose.

10 Q.Allright.Andyoumentionedthenamesofthe11 variouspartiesorexcusemethevarious12 ownersofAEG.13 DidyouhavedefinedrolesatAEG,or14 wereyoualldoingthesamething?15 A.Basically,youknow,Itooktheleadinmostof16 theconversations.17 Q.Okay.18 A.Youknow,butitwasnononobodyhadany19 moreimportantrolethananybodyelse.20 Q.Okay.DoesAEGorhassinceitsfounding,21 hasAEGhadanyotherbusinessesotherthanits22 dealingswithDr.AndreaRossiandtheDefendants23 inthiscase?

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Page 171 A.No.2 Q.Itdoesn'thaveanyotherbusinesses?3 A.No.4 Q.HowwereyoufirstintroducedtoDoctorRossi?5 A.HowwasI?6 Q.Yeah.7 A.1996,atTuftsUniversity,commonfriendofours8 saidthathehadaninventoratTufts,andhe9 wantedtointroducemetohim,becausehedidn't

10 quiteunderstandwhatthetechnologywas;andhe11 calledme.12 Q.AnddidyoumeetDoctorRossiatthattime?13 A.Idid.14 Q.AndwhatdidyoulearnaboutDoctorRossiatthat15 time?16 A.Well,thathehadatechnologyIwasfamiliar17 withpyrolysis,andhewasdemonstratingit.18 Q.Andwhatisthattechnology?19 A.Pyrolysisisairstarvedconversionofthis20 thiswasparticulartiresandwithheatingit21 andstarvingair,youseparatedifferent22 componentsthat'scontainedwithintherubber23 tire.

Page 181 Q.Okay.Afteryouhadthatwasthattheinitial2 conversationyouhadaboutthattechnology?3 A.Yeah.4 Q.Andwhatwhenisthenexttimeyoumetwith5 DoctorRossiorsawDoctorRossiafterthat?6 A.I'mnotsureexactly,butweconnected,andI7 introducedhimtoapersonIknewinNew8 Hampshire.9 Q.Okay.Andwhydidyoudothat?

10 A.Becausehehistechnologywassomethingthey11 probablywouldbeinterestedin.12 Q.Andwhatwasthenameofthatcompany?13 A.BioDevelopment.14 Q.AnddidthatcompanystartworkingwithDoctor15 Rossi?16 A.Yes.17 Q.Inwhatcontext?18 A.Justtryingtodevelopabusinessrelationship.19 Q.Okay.Anddidtheydevelopabusiness20 relationship?21 A.Foralittlewhile.22 Q.Okay.DidtheothermembersofAEGeventually23 meetDoctorRossi?

Page 191 A.Yes.2 Q.Did3 A.BobGentilewasthefirst.4 Q.AnddidBobGentileworkforthatcompanyinNew5 Hampshire?6 A.No.7 Q.Whatwasthecircumstancesinwhichhemet8 A.IIwasfriendswithBob,andheandIwere9 workingondifferenttechnologies;andhewaspast

10 AssistantSecretaryofEnergy,andwewere11 interestedinsomeofthetechnologythatDoctor12 Rossidid.13 Q.Isthatthesametechnologyyoumentioned14 earlier15 A.No.16 Q.ordifferent?17 A.Nowell,avarietyofthem.18 Q.Canyoudescribeformewhatwhattechnology19 youwereinterestedin.20 A.Itwasthepyrolysisthatwasone.21 And,thenandIagain,Idon't22 recallexactly,butitwassomethingtodowith23 convertingwastethroughpaperandvarious

Page 201 sortofmaterialsbiomassmaterials.2 Q.AnddidDoctorRossiendupworkingwithRobert3 Gentile?4 A.Wedid.Weactuallyformedacompanytogether,5 thethreeofus.6 Q.Whatwasthatcompany?7 A.ThatwasLeonardoTechnologyIdon'tknowif8 it'sLeonardoResearch&Development,orjust9 Leonardo.I'mnotsure.

10 Q.Doesthephrase"LTI"meananythingtoyou?11 A.Yeah.LTIisisthecompanythatBobandI12 started13 Q.Okay.14 A.separatecompletelyseparatecompany.15 Q.Gotit.16 Butthecompanythatyoustartedwith17 DoctorRossiwasLeonardoR&D,orsomethinglike18 that?19 A.Yes.Yeah.20 Q.Doyouknowifthatcompany'sstillinexistence?21 A.Itisn't.22 Q.Okay.23 A.Well,LeonardoResearch&Developmentisjusta

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Page 211 companythatexists,butitdoesn'tdoanything.2 Q.Okay.WhataboutRonaldEngleman?Didyouever3 introduceDoctorRossitoRonaldEngleman?4 A.Yes.5 Q.Whenwasthat?6 A.AfterweformedAmpEnergowewebroughtRonald7 intothecompany.8 Q.Forwhatreason?9 A.Hewasapartnerofoursafriendofours,and

10 hewasanengineer.11 BobandIarenotengineers.12 Q.Gotit.Soyouwerehopingthathisbackground13 wouldbeusefulforhelping14 A.Toevaluatethetechnology.15 ThesamewithRickNociti.16 Q.Yeah.Allright.17 WhataboutKarlNorwood?18 A.KarlisafriendandpartnerandhadknownDoctor19 Rossifromthebeginningtoo.20 Q.HowhadKarlNorwoodknownDoctorRossi?21 A.IintroducedKarl.22 Q.Approximatelythesametimeframe'96'97?23 A.Yeah.Yeah.

Page 221 Q.AndwhatwasKarlNorwood'sbackground?2 A.He'sarealestatedeveloper.3 Q.Now,didyoueverIguessyoudid.Youformed4 abusinesstogether.5 Whatwasthenatureofthebusinessthat6 youformedwithDoctorRossi?7 A.Toevaluatetolookatdifferenttechnologies.8 Q.HadyoueverworkedwithDoctorRossiinItaly?9 A.After,butnotnotbefore.

10 Q.Okay.Sowhenyousay"after,"whatdoyoumean?11 A.Afterafterweformedthecompany.12 Q.Gotit.13 "Thecompany,"beingAEG,orthecompany14 being15 A.EithertheLeonardoResearch&Development16 or17 Q.Gotit.18 Whatdidyoudowhatwasthenature19 ofthework20 A.Wewestartedtolookatthermoelectrics21 Q.Okay.22 A.withDoctorRossi.23 Q.Anddidthatleadtoanybusiness?

Page 231 A.Weno.Wewell,weDoctorRossi2 proofproofofconcept,andthatwasreally3 whatweIhadnoideawhatthermoelectricswas.4 Q.Gotit.5 Howdidyoufinditwastoworkwith6 DoctorRossi?7 A.Wehadagoodrelationship.8 Q.Didyoueverfindhimtobedifficulttowork9 with?

10 A.No.He'sstrongminded.11 Q.Didyoueverfindhimtobedeceitfulor12 dishonest?13 A.No.14 Q.WhatledtothetotheformationofAEG?15 Howdidhowdidthoseconversations16 go?17 A.WeafterwehadmetwithDoctorRossito18 discussaboutalicensingagreement,becauseof19 thewejustwantedtoputaseparatecompany20 togetherjustspecificallyforthepurposeof21 licensingandtokeepeverything'causewewere22 alsoworkingfor,youknow,otherother23 parties.

Page 241 Q.Okay.WasthataconversationthatDoctorRossi2 started?Imean,didhecometoyouandsay,I3 haveatechnology;Ineedyourhelp?4 A.Yes.5 Q.Idon'twanttoputwordsintoyourmouth.I6 mean,isthat7 A.Yes,hedid.He8 Q.howithappened?9 A.Yes.Hewasexcitedaboutthetechnologythathe

10 wasdevelopingandapproachedusbecauseofour11 pastrelationshipandaskedusifhewecould12 helphimhereintheUS.13 Q.Didyourgrouphaveexperiencingexperiencein14 helpinggetnewtechnologiespartneredupwith15 whetheritbefundingpartnersorcommercial16 partnersfortheuseofthattechnology?17 A.Well,wewereLTIatthattime,'causethatwas18 whereBobandIandRonwehadformedthat19 LeonardoTechnologies,Inc.That'spartofwhat20 wedidwasevaluatetechnologiesforDepartmentof21 Energy.22 Q.WhendidDoctorRossiapproachyouwithhis23 technologythatthatyouformedAEGfor,

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Page 251 approximately?2 A.2008.3 Q.Andatthattimewhatdidhetellyouabouthis4 technology?5 A.Thathehadahotwaterheater,'causethatwas6 simple.7 Q.Right.8 A.Andthatwaswhatheexplained.9 Q.Didheeventuallyshowyouthetechnology?

10 A.HeBobGentileandRickNocitiwenttoItalyto11 lookatthetechnology.12 Q.Anddidyouhaveaconversationwiththemwhen13 theycameback?14 A.Yes.15 Q.Andwhatdidtheysay?16 A.Theythoughtitwasveryinteresting,but,you17 know,didn'tquiteunderstandImean,18 understandthetechnology.19 IthinkRickhadabettersense,but...20 Q.I'mgoingtoI'mgoingtocallthetechnology21 theECattechnology.22 Haveyouheardthattermbefore?23 A.Yes,Ihave.

Page 261 Q.Whatdoesthattermmeantoyou?2 A.ThetechnologythatAndreaRossiwasworkingon.3 Q.Okay.Andithadsomethingtodowithwell,4 whatisyourunderstandingofwhatthetechnology5 was?6 A.Myunderstanding,inlaymen'sterms,isconverting7 oneelementtoanother,andinthatprocessof8 thatconversion,givingoffexcessheat.9 Q.Okay.Now,priortowhetheritbeformingAEG

10 orenteringyouragreementwithDoctorRossi,did11 AEGperformduediligenceonthetechnology?12 A.Well,itwasalittleoutsideofourscopeof13 expertise.14 Q.Right.15 A.Andwhatwehaddiscussedwas,youknow,having16 otherpeopleevaluateit.17 Q.Anddidyoudothat?18 A.Wedid.19 Q.Andwhowerethosepeople?20 A.WehadMikeMelich21 Q.Canyouspellthat.22 A.Melich.23 andaguy,AnthonyCugini.

Page 271 Q.Spellthatone,too.2 A.Cugini.3 Q.Andweretheyengineers?4 A.Nowell,MikeisaIdon'tknowifheisa5 physicist,buthehadbeenlookingatlowenergy6 nuclearreactionforhe'sonethathadalittle7 moreexpertisethananyofus.8 Q.Okay.Anddidtheydoananalysisorreviewof9 thetechnology?

10 A.Well,wedidonedemonstrationwheretheyreviewed11 itandobservedforI'mtryingtofind12 theobservedtheoutputs.13 Q.Gotit.Andwhatwastheirfeedbacktoyou?14 A.Thattheycouldn'texplainwhatwasgoingon.15 Q.Okay.Andyoumentionedlowenergynuclear16 reaction.17 Andthatthat'saphraseisitan18 acronym,"LENR"?Haveyouheardthatbefore?19 A.Yes.20 Q.WhatwasyourunderstandingofthefieldofLENR21 atthattime?22 A.Zero.23 Q.Haveyoudidyoudoanyresearchintothat

Page 281 field?2 A.Onlythroughhavingconversationsandlisteningto3 DoctorRossiandGoogling,youknowImean4 justasmuchaswecould.5 Q.Didyougainjustaveryhighlevelunderstanding6 ofwhatitwas?7 A.30,000footlevel;yes.8 Q.Whatgood.9 Whatwasyour30,000footlevel

10 understandingofit?11 A.ThatafterPons'andFleischmann'sexperience,12 thatmostpeoplefeltitwassciencethatwouldn't13 work.14 Q.Right.DidDoctorRossi,priortoyoupriorto15 youenteringintoanagreementwithhimprovide16 aordoatestforyourgroupinBedford,New17 Hampshire?18 A.Yes.19 Q.Wereyoupresentforthat?20 A.Yes.21 Q.Whoelsewaspresentforthat?22 A.KarlNorwood,BobGentile,RickNociti.23 Q.Andwhatweretheresultsofthattest?



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Page 291 A.AndandIthinkMikecamelaterImean,2 afteritwasstarted.3 Q.Gotit.4 Doyouknowwhattheresultsofthat5 testwere?6 A.Ittheresultsweretherelookedliketherewas7 somethinggoingon.8 Q.Okay.Didyouthinkthatthattestwasascam9 ororwaswasnotreal?

10 A.No.11 Q.DidyouthinkatanytimethatDoctorRossiwas12 defraudingyouoryourgroup?13 A.No.14 Q.Approximatelywhenintimedidyoureachan15 agreementwithDoctorRossiregardinglicensing16 histechnology?17 A.Itwasaprocess.He'sahardnegotiator.Andwe18 spenttimewithourattorney,BillBlakeorI19 didalotofitandputtinginwithAndrea20 andhisattorneyaframeworkforalicense21 agreement.22 Q.Anddidyoueventuallyreachanagreement?23 A.Wedid.

Page 301 Q.AtsomepointintimeandI'llgetintothe2 agreementinalittlebit,butatsomepointin3 timedidyouaskDoctorRossitoparticipatein4 testswiththeDepartmentofEnergyorthe5 DepartmentofDefense?6 A.Weweexploredthat.7 Q.Anddiddidyoupitchit8 A.Theycouldn'tcometoanagreement.9 Q.Whenyousay"we"couldn'tcometoanagreement...

10 A.They,DoctorRossiandtheDepartmentofDefense.11 Q.Okay.Didyouhaveconversationswithanyonefrom12 theDepartmentofEnergy,DepartmentofDefense?13 A.No.Itwasn'treallytheDepartmentofDefense.14 ItwastheNavyresearchlabs.15 Q.Gotit.16 I'mgoingtoshowyouwhat'sbeenmarked17 asExhibitNo.2.18 MR.CHAIKEN:ExhibitNo.2hasbeen19 BatesstampedAE422.001through422.002.20 (Exhibit2,AE422.001422.002.)21 Q.Andit'saseriesofemailsactually,two22 emails:Thefirstoneisfromyou,Ibelieve,to23 J.T.VaughanofCherokee,datedFebruary19th,

Page 311 2013.2 Isthatyouremailonthepage,3 "CTCassarino@LTI"4 A.Yes.5 Q."global.com"?6 A.Yup.7 Q.Doyourecallthisemail?8 A.No.9 Q.Takeaminuteandjustreviewyours.Itstarts

10 "Goodmorning,J.T."11 Andwhenyou'redone,letmeknow.12 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)13 Q.Doyourecallbeingdoyourecallsendingthree14 reportstoJ.T.Vaughanin2013?15 A.Idon'trecall.16 Q.Doyourecallwhatthesereportswereregarding?17 A.Well,ititwhatI'mlookingathere,one18 says"thermoelectric."Thatcouldhavebeenthe19 firstproofofconceptonethatwehad.20 Theotherand,again,thesewould21 havebeenthethermoelectrics.22 Q.Okay.ButyoudorecallgoingtotheDepartment23 ofEnergyandDepartmentofDefensewiththis

Page 321 technology.2 A.Itwasn'ttheECat.3 Q.Oh,I'msorry.4 A.ItwasnottheECat.5 Q.Itwassomethingelse?6 A.Itwasthethermoelectrics.7 Q.Gotit.8 ButweretheapplicationsfortheECats9 tobeusedforthermoelectricsandthingsofthat

10 nature?11 A.WewerewewerethinkingthatbecausetheECat12 hadexcessheat,thethermoelectricscouldcapture13 someoftheexcessheatandusetheexcessheatto14 makemoresmallpower.Imean,youknow,that's15 whatthermoelectricsdoes,convertsexcessheatto16 adeltaTtomakemorepower.17 SowethoughttheECatwasproducing18 excessheat.Maybethere'sablendforthe19 thermoelectrics.20 Q.Understood.Goingbacktotheagreementbetween21 AEGandDoctorRossi,didisityour22 understandingthatDoctorRossiformedacompany23 alsocalledLeonardo?

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Page 331 A.Yeah.TherewereImean,thatwasconfusing2 foralotofpeople.3 Q.Buthedidfilehedidincorporateacompany4 calledLeonardoinNewHampshire;isthatyour5 understanding?6 A.Yes.Yes.Yeah.7 Q.Okay.AndAEGenteredintoanagreementwith8 Leonardo?9 A.Yes.

10 Q.AnditwasregardingtheECattechnology?11 A.Yes.12 Q.Whatdoyourecallaboutthetermsofthatdeal?13 A.Thatwewouldhavethelicenseagreementforthe14 Americas.15 Q.Okay.16 A.That,andIbelieveandIdon'tmeanthis17 sarcasticallybutwe,youknow,allthepoints18 areintheagreementsthatyouhave.So,you19 know,ifyouwanttogothrougheachoneofthose,20 Imean,youknow,it's...21 Q.I'mjusttalkinghighlevelterms.22 A.Yeah.Itwasitwastoreachanagreementfor23 thetofindaninvestor,'causewecertainly

Page 341 didn'thavethekindofcapitaltofindan2 investorandthatwewouldparticipate,after3 findingtheinvestor,onaonethird4 participation;andthattherewererequirementsin5 there,becausewefeltthatitneededa6 thirdpartyevaluationthroughtheinvestor.7 Q.Whatdoyoumeanbythat?8 A.Thatwedidn'thavethetechnicalskillsorthe9 knowhowtoevaluatethetechnology;andthatif

10 weweretofindaninvestor,thatthatwastheir11 responsibility.12 Q.Understood.13 DidDoctorRossiandLeonardohonorthat14 agreement?15 A.Yes.16 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.17 Q.AtsomepointintimedidAEGcomeincontactwith18 TomDardenandCherokeeFund?19 A.Yes.20 Q.AndwhomadetheintroductionofTomDardento21 AEG?22 A.Twopeople:RickBaumanandJimCompton.23 Q.Andhowdidtheyfindyou?

Page 351 A.I'mnotsure.2 Q.DoyouknowiftheycontactedDoctorRossi3 directly,andthenDoctorRossiintroducedthemto4 you?5 A.Idon'tremember.6 Q.HowdidtheinitialconversationwithRickBauman7 andJimComptongo?8 A.Theyaskedifwewouldbeinterestedinmakingan9 introductiontoaninvestortheyhadto

10 DoctorRossi.11 Q.Okay.Anddidthat,infact,happen?12 A.Yes,itdid.13 Q.Doyouknowapproximatelywhen?14 A.Youknow,Idon'trecalltheexactdatewewentto15 Florida.16 Q.DoesJune2012soundaboutright?17 A.Soundsprobablyright.18 Q.I'mgoingtoshowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedas19 ExhibitNo.3.20 MR.CHAIKEN:ExhibitNo.3hasbeen21 BatesstampedAE538,andit'stwoemailsdated22 June25th,2012.23 (Exhibit3,AE538.)

Page 361 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)Yeah.Iremember;2 yeah.3 Q.DidyoutraveltotoMiamiforthismeeting?4 A.Idid.5 Q.AndyoumetTomDardenatthattime?6 A.Idid.7 Q.Didyoumeetanybodyelseatthattime?8 A.RickBaumanandJimCompton.9 Q.AndwasDoctorRossipartofthatmeeting?

10 A.Yes,hewas.11 Q.Anddoyouknowexactlywhereitwasheld?12 A.ItwasheldathisapartmentinMiami.13 Q."His"beingDoctorRossi's?14 A.DoctorRossi's.15 Q.Andjustbrieflyifyoucouldsummarizewhatthe16 discussionwas.17 A.Itwasanintroduction.Theydiscussedwhat18 DoctorRossiwasdoing.DoctorRossiexplained19 whathewasdoingwiththetechnology.20 Itwasagettoknoweachothermeeting.21 Q.Andwhatbasedonyouremail,itsoundedlike22 itwentwell.23 A.Itdid.

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Page 371 Q.Andwhenyouleftthemeeting,wasyourimpression2 thatthepartiesweregoingtodobusiness3 together?4 A.That'swhatwewerehoping.5 Q.Okay.Andafteryouleftthemeeting,whatwas6 thenextconversationyouhadregardingECatand7 ECattechnologywithTomDarden?8 A.Thenextconversation,I'mIdon'trecallthe9 nextconversation.

10 Q.Okay.Atsomepointintimedidwhetheritbe11 TomDardenorsomeonefromhisgroupeverask12 youtohelpwiththeirduediligence?13 A.No.14 Q.Didyouplayanyroleinnegotiatingthelicense15 agreementbetweenTomDardenandhisgroupand16 DoctorRossi?17 A.Didweparticipateinthat?18 No.19 Q.OtherthantheintroductionwithRickBaumanand20 JimCompton,didAEGintroduceDoctorRossitoany21 otherpotentialinvestorsorpartners?22 A.Yes.23 Q.Whoelse?

Page 381 A.JohnPreston,NASA.2 Q.Who'sJohnPreston?3 A.HewasaninvestorinBoston.4 Q.And5 A.ThatwaspriortoTomDarden.6 Q.AndwhathappenedwithJohnPreston?7 A.TheyDoctorRossiandJohnPrestoncouldn't8 cometoanagreement.9 Q.Okay.SothiswaspriortoJuneof2012?

10 A.Ibelieveso.11 Q.WhataboutNASA?Whendidyouintroduce12 A.ThatwaspartofJohnhadarelationshipwith13 them,andtheywereinterestedinthetechnology.14 Q.Okay.15 A.Weweactuallywentandtriedtofindlotsof16 investors.17 Q.OtherthanJohnPrestonandNASA,werethereany18 othersthatyoucanthinkof?19 A.Well,wehadlotsofmeetings,Imean,withlots20 ofinvestors,butbecauseofthewaythatthe21 agreementwasstructuredandDoctorRossi's22 concernoversomebodytakingthetechnology,those23 agreementscouldnevercometofruition.

Page 391 Q.Understood.2 DidIthinkyousaidthatyouwere3 theleadpersonasitrelatestoAEG's4 A.Well,onlybecauseIhadalongerrelationship5 thananybodyelsewithwithDoctorRossi.6 Q.Gotit.7 A.Anditwasinterestingtome.8 Q.Whatdoyourecallaboutthenegotiationsbetween9 TomDarden,hisgroup,andDoctorRossi,if

10 anything?11 A.Specifically,I'mnotsureyoumeanwhat?12 What...13 Q.Justwhatwhenittookplace,howthe14 negotiationswent,howtheycametoterms.15 A.Itwaswewerenotpartofthenegotiations16 withIndustrialHeatandDoctorRossi.Wehadour17 ownagreementthatwewereworkingon.18 Everythingseemedtoworkokay.19 Q.Didyoueverreviewdraftsofthelicense20 agreementthatwasbeingdiscussedbetweenTom21 Darden,hisgroup,andDoctorRossi?22 A.Yes,becausewewerepartofthelicensing.23 Q.Right.And,infact,AEGwasapartytothat

Page 401 agreement;weretheynot?2 A.Yes.3 Q.AndwereyouthepersonfromAEGwhowasgiving4 inputtothat,orwassomebodyelse?5 A.Well,weallwere.Imean,wewereallreviewing.6 Q.Didyoufindthatagreementtobefair?7 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.8 A.IIbelievewhatwefeltwasthattheagreement9 thattheyhadwouldmovethemoveitforward.

10 Q.Understood.IsthereareasonwhyAEGwantedto11 bepaiddirectlyfromIndustrialHeat,asopposed12 tofromDoctorRossi'scompany?13 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.14 THEWITNESS:Whenyousay"object,"do15 IdoIhaveto16 Q.Youstillhavetoanswerthequestion.I'msorry.17 Youweshouldhaveexplainedthattoyou.18 THEWITNESS:Yeah.19 Q.Counselmayobjecttotheformofmyquestion.He20 mayifhefindssomethingobjectionableabout21 it,butunlessyourattorneyinstructsyounotto22 answerthequestion23 A.Oh,okay.

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Page 411 Q.thenyoucananswerifyouunderstandthe2 question.3 MR.SHARE:ImayImayinstructyou4 Imayinstructyoutonotanswersomethingif5 it'saprivilegedconversation.6 THEWITNESS:Okay.7 MR.SHARE:Otherwise,asweas8 mentioned,ifthere'sanobjection,takeapause,9 noinstructions,youshouldassumetoanswerthat.

10 THEWITNESS:Okay.11 A.Socouldyourepeatthequestion.12 Q.Yeah.IsthereareasonwhyAEGwantedtobepaid13 directlyfromIndustrialHeat,asopposedtobeing14 paidbyLeonardoorDoctorRossi?15 MR.BELL:Sameobjection.16 A.Wewantedtomakesurethatwegotourmoneyup17 front.18 Q.Andyoufelttheonlywaytodothatwastoget19 paiddirectlybyIndustrialHeat?20 A.IndustrialHeat;yes.21 Q.I'mgoingtoshowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedas22 ExhibitNo.4.23 MR.CHAIKEN:Exhibit4hasbeenBates

Page 421 stampedIH21529through21533.2 (Exhibit4,IH2152921533.)3 Q.Andtheveryfirstemailonthisexhibitisone4 fromDoctorRossitoTomDarden,anditcc'syou5 aswell.6 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)7 Q.ItjustgoestothegoestothefactthatAEG8 wantedtobepaiddirectlyfromIndustrialHeat.9 A.Yes.

10 Q.DidIndustrialHeatoranyonefromTomDarden's11 grouphaveanyissuewiththatwiththat12 request?13 A.No.14 Q.Now,whatwereyoutoldaboutIndustrialHeatat15 thattime?16 A.Well,whenwewerefirstbeginning,Industrial17 Heatdidn'texist.18 Q.Okay.19 A.ItwasitwasTomDarden/Cherokeethatwe20 startedtohaveconversationswith.21 Q.Anddidtheytellyoutheywereplanningon22 openingupanewcompany23 A.Yes.

Page 431 Q.forpurposesofthisdeal?2 A.Yes.3 Q.Andwhatdidtheytellyouabouttheirtheir4 corporatestructure,ifanything?5 A.ThatIIdon'trecalliftheysaidanything.6 Q.DidyouunderstandthatIndustrialHeatwasgoing7 tobeanaffiliateorsubsidiaryoftheentities8 thatTomDardenalreadyowned?9 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.

10 A.Idon'tthinkso.Ithinktheywewhatwe11 understoodwastheyweredoingthesamethingthat12 wedo:formingAmpEnergoandIndustrialHeatto13 keepthingsseparate.14 Q.Didyouhaveanyspecificconversationsabout15 that?16 A.Imighthave.I'mnotI'mnotsure.17 Q.I'mgoingtoshowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedas18 ExhibitNo.5.19 MR.CHAIKEN:ExhibitNo.5hasbeen20 BatesstampedIH129182.21 (Exhibit5,IH129182.)22 Q.Anditisadrafttermsheet.23 Haveyoueverseenthisbefore?

Page 441 A.Yes.2 Q.Doyouknowwhopreparedthis?3 A.IIdon'trecallwhopreparedthis.Musthave4 beenourattorney.5 Q.Takejusttakeaquickminutetoreviewit.6 A.Okay.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)Maybeit's7 theIndustrialHeatdidthis.8 Q.Thisdocument'snotdated,butI'mtryingI9 believeIcangetsomecontextastowhenitwas

10 created,becausetheveryfirstparagraph,under11 No.1,states"Undertheexistingagreement12 betweenLCandAEG."13 Soobviouslytherethatagreement14 hadn'tformedbythetimethisdocumentwas15 drafted,Ibelieve.16 A.Yeah.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)17 Q.Ibelievethat"LC"referstoLeonardo18 Corporation?19 A.Yes.20 Q.Isityourunderstandingthatthelicense21 agreementbetweenLeonardoCorporationandand22 AEGwasformedin2010?23 Doesthatsoundright?

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Page 451 A.Iamnotsureofthosedates.2 Q.Dothetermssetforthinthistermsheetreflect3 whatyourunderstandingwaswasinduring4 thecourseofyournegotiationswithTomDarden5 andhisgroup?6 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.7 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)Yes.8 Q.DidyoueverhaveadiscussionwithDoctorRossi9 regardingAEG'sintentionsasitrelatestoTom

10 Darden'sgroup?11 A.Morespecific,please.12 Q.Yeah.Sospecificallyinparagraph1itstates13 that"AEGwouldreceiveboardseatscommensurate14 withitsequityshareinnewco."15 DidyoueverdiscusswithDoctorRossi16 thatAEGwaslookingtotakeaboardseatin17 theinthecompany?18 A.Idon'tthinkwedid.19 Q.Isthereareasonyoudidn't?20 A.Becausetheytolduswecouldn't.21 Q."They,"beingTomDardenandhisgroup?22 A.Yes.Yeah.Wewouldnotbeabletohaveaboard23 seat.

Page 461 Q.Ah.2 Sotheysaidboardseat'soffthetable?3 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.4 A.Yes,becausewewereaminorityshareholder.5 Q.Gotit.6 Paragraph2providesthatAEGwould7 "provideassistanceinthenegotiationofresearch8 andlicensingagreementswithcommercialand9 governmentalgovernmententitieswithwhichAEG

10 hashadapriorandongoingrelationship."11 Wasthatsomethingthatwaswasthat12 somethingthatAEGdidafterenteringintoits13 dealwithTomDarden'sgroup?14 A.Yes.15 Q.Howdidyoudothat?16 Whatdidyoudo?17 A.WehadasIpreviouslyhadstatedhadmeta18 lotofpeoplealongtheway,andwejustturned19 overthosecontactstothem.Again,thescience20 andthatwasbeyondus,sowedidn'thavewe21 weremostlylookingtohelpIndustrialHeatfind22 orworkwithclientsthathadbeenapproached23 thatwehadapproached,ortheyhadcontactedus.

Page 471 Q.Yeah.AtsomepointintimedidAEGenterintoa2 ContributionAgreementwithIndustrialHeat?3 A.Yes,wedid.4 Q.Doyouknowapproximatelywhenthatwas?5 A.No.Iitwasduringthatwholeperiod.I'm6 notsureexactlywhen.7 Q.AnddidAEGevergetequityinIndustrialHeat?8 A.Yes.Weininlieuof$500,000payment,we9 decidedtotakea1percentinterestinIndustrial

10 Heat.11 Soweleftthatonthetablewiththem.12 Q.Gotit.13 I'mgoingtoshowyouwhat'sbeenmarked14 asExhibitNo.6.15 MR.CHAIKEN:Exhibit6hasbeenBates16 stampedIH104053through104058.17 (Exhibit6,IH104053104058.)18 Q.It'saseriesofemailsfromAprilof2015.19 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)20 Q.AndI'mgoingtoreferyoutothethirdpageof21 thisdocument.It'sanemailfromAprilKnightto22 AndrewShare,datedApril14th,2015.23 Doyourecallseeingtheseemails?

Page 481 A.Yes.2 Q.Andwhatwhat'sthewhat'syour3 understandingofwhatwasbeingdiscussedatthis4 time?5 A.Theywantedustoputinextramoneytobringthe6 shareuptothewaythattheywereraising7 capital,themoneythatweputinwouldget8 diluted;andinordertobringituptothat19 percent,wehadtoputanother$30,000in.And

10 that's,Ibelieve,thecorehere;thatwehad11 decidedtodothat.12 Q.Didyou,infact,dothat?13 A.Wedid.14 Q.Didtheyalsoaskyoutoconvertyoursharesin15 IndustrialHeattothesharesofanotherofa16 differententity?17 A.Yeah.AndandthisisI'mnotalegalguy,18 sosharesandthat,Ileftituptoourlegal19 toourattorneytodothat.Butthatwaspartof20 what21 Q.Okay.Idon'twantyoutotellmethecontentsof22 anycommunicationyouhadwithyourcounsel23 A.Okay.



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Page 491 Q.butisityourunderstandingthatyoudid,in2 fact,swapoutsharesforIndustrialHeatfor3 sharesofanotherentity?4 A.Yes.5 Q.Now,wereyoutoldbyTomDardenoranyonefrom6 IndustrialHeattokeepthetermsofthat7 transactionconfidentialfromDoctorRossi?8 A.No.9 Q.Well,ifyoucouldjustgotothefrontpageof

10 thatdocument,intheveryfirstIguessit's11 thesecondemailfromTomDardentoyou,April12 16th,2015,hewrites"Pleaserememberalsoto13 keepthisconfidentialtowithinourshareholder14 group,whichdoesnotincludeAndrea."15 A.Iguess,then,itwas.Youknow,Ijustdidn't16 recall.Didn'tthinkthatwas...17 Q.Andthenyouwroterightabove"Thanks,Tom.18 ThanksJ.T.Youcanbesurewewillnotsay19 anythingtoananyone.Craig."20 A.Okay.21 Q.Sodoyouknowwhyhewantedtokeepthat22 confidentialfromDoctorRossi?23 A.IIbelievewell,thisisjustmyopinion:

Page 501 Itwashewasnegotiatingforother2 stockholders.3 Q."He"beingTomDarden?4 A.Tom.5 Q.YouneverhadaconversationwithTomDardenasto6 whyhewouldwanttokeepthingsfromDoctor7 Rossi?8 A.IIdon'trecall.I,youknow...9 Q.What'sthetotalamountofcashthatAEGreceived

10 asaresultoftheLeonardo/IndustrialHeat11 contract?12 A.Weweretoreceiveonethirdofthe15million,13 whichwas5million.Idon'tknowexactlyhow14 much,exactly,butwewereofferedbecausethey15 couldn'traisethemoneyinitially,sotheywere16 goingtopayusaninterestonthat;IandI17 believeitwas2itwasahalfamilliondollar18 interestonthemoneytheyowedus,and...19 Sothetotalamountwas500and520 $400,000somethingplusthe50,000.21 Q.Okay.Letmeshowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedas22 ExhibitNo.7.23 MR.CHAIKEN:ExhibitNo.7hasbeen

Page 511 BatesstampedIH132033through132051.2 (Exhibit7,IH132033051.)3 Q.Thisthefirstpageofthisexhibitisaletter4 datedAugust13th,2013,regardingthe5 ContributionAgreementandpaymentofthefirst6 tranche.Andtherearetwosignaturesonthis7 page.8 Doyourecognizethesesignatures?9 A.Yes.

10 Q.Andwhosesignaturesarethey?11 A.J.VaughanJ.T.VaughanandKarlNorwood.12 Q.Andtheexhibitsattachedtothiscoverletter13 arethefirstoneisan"Amendmentto14 ContributionAgreement,"andthat'satwopage15 document;andthenthenextoneis,infact,the16 "ContributionAgreement,"datedJanuary21st,17 2013.18 Doyourecognizethat?19 A.Yes.20 Q.IsthattheContributionAgreementthatwas21 executedbetweenAEGandIndustrialHeat?22 A.Yes.23 Q.Andisthefirstamendmentwhatyoujust

Page 521 describedthefactthattherewasadelayin2 makingthatfirstpaymenttoyou,andsoitwas3 amendedtoallowyoutogetanextrapayment?4 A.Yes.5 Q.Now,afterthelicenseagreementbetweenLeonardo6 andIndustrialHeat,didAEGhaveanyfurther7 obligationstoLeonardo?8 A.Canyourepeatthat.9 Q.Yeah.Afterthelicenseagreementwasentered

10 intobetweenLeonardoDoctorRossi'scompany11 andIndustrialHeat,didAEGoweLeonardoany12 additionalobligations?13 A.No.14 Q.WhataboutIndustrialHeat?DiddidAEGowe15 IndustrialHeatanyadditionalobligations?16 A.No.Iotherthanjustverbal,We'llhelpeach17 otherbecausewewereallinterestedin,youknow,18 gettingthetechnologyadvanced.19 Q.Allright.WhendidAEGfirstlearnthat20 IndustrialHeatintendedtodoacorporate21 restructuring?22 A.I'mnotsureexactlywhatthosedateswere.23 Q.Does



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Page 531 A.Itwasprobablyshortlyafterthelicense,because2 theywereformingthisnewcompany.3 Q.Yeah.I'mnottalkingabouttheformationof4 IndustrialHeat.5 A.Oh.6 Q.I'mtalkingaboutafterthefact,aroundthetime7 whenyouweretalkingaboutswappingthesharesof8 IndustrialHeatforsharesofadifferentcompany.9 A.Thatwasanongoingconversation.Wehad

10 conversationswithJ.T.Vaughaneverytwoweeks,11 wheretheywouldgiveusanupdate.Sothatwas12 partof...13 Q.Wasthataaphoneconversationthatyouhad14 A.Yes,phoneconversation.15 Q.everytwodays?16 Andwhenwasthatfirststarted?17 A.Probablyshortlyafter,youknow,allthe18 agreementswereinplace.19 Q.Now,IthinkinthelastexhibittheContribution20 AgreementwasexecutedinJanuaryof201321 January21st?22 A.Yeah.Itityouknow,Idon'tthinkit23 happenedrightthen,becausetherewasstilllots

Page 541 ofnegotiatinggoingon.Imean,themworking2 throughtheiragreements,andweweresittingon3 thesideline,really,forawhile.4 Q.Gotit.5 I'mgoingtoshowyouwhat'sbeenmarked6 asExhibitNo.8.7 MR.CHAIKEN:ExhibitNo.8hasbeen8 BatesstampedIH104013through104018.9 (Exhibit8,IH104013018.)

10 Q.It'saseriesofemailsfromAprilof2015.11 Doesthatsoundaboutthetimeinwhich12 youwerehavingconversationsorortherewere13 communicationsabouttherebeingarestructuring14 oftheIndustrialHeatcompanies?15 A.That'sprobablyyeah.16 Q.Now,thistheemailonthispagefromAndrew17 SharetoAprilKnightcc'syou.18 Iwanttoreferyoutothesecondpage19 ofthatemail.It'sBatesstampedatthebottom20 104014.21 A.Yes.22 Q.SpecificallyI'dliketoreferyoutoparagraph4.23 A.Okay.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)

Page 551 Q.Paragraph4statesI'mgoingtotrytoread2 thisslowly:"Asyouknow,thepartieshave3 previouslydiscussedtheintentbehindthe4 contributionagreementandanycommercial5 achievementthatRossiisabletogenerate,andit6 hasbeenraisedthattherecouldbesomeambiguity7 astowhattriggersAmpEnergohastofutureequity8 intheappropriatecompany."9 Didyouhaveconversationswithanyone

10 fromIndustrialHeataboutanambiguityintowhat11 triggersAmpEnergo'sfutureequityinthe12 appropriatecompany?13 A.Yeah.AndthatwaswhatIwassaying.Whenit14 washadtodowithstockswaps,anddifferent15 shares,andthat'ssomethingthatIstillhavea16 hardtimetryingtounderstand.17 Q.Soyouthinkthatthisparagraphreferstosimply18 swappingoutsharesandnothavinganythingtodo19 withwhatRossi'sabletoachieveinhistesting20 ofthetechnology.21 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)ThatwasNo.4,you22 said?23 Q.Yeah,No.4.

Page 561 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)Well,oneofthe2 thingsthatwehaddiscussionswithampisI3 mean,withIndustrialHeatwasperformanceand4 reachingacertainCOP,andthatouragreement5 withthemwastiedtothatCOP.6 Q.Right.So7 A.Andwedisagreedwiththat.8 Q.YoudisagreedwithIndustrialHeat9 A.Yes.

10 Q.asto11 A.Yes.12 Q.yourpaymentbeingtiedto13 A.Itwasambiguous14 Q.It's15 A.onthepercentagesreachedontheCOP.16 Q.Isee.17 Didyoueverhaveanydiscussionswith18 IndustrialHeatwhereinIndustrialHeat'sposition19 wasthetimeforperformancehadpast,and,20 therefore,certainpaymentsthatmayhavebeen21 achievablewerenolongerachievable?22 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.23 A.I'mnotsureifitwasexactlythatway.

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Page 571 Q.Well,explaintomewhatwayyouunderstooditto2 be.3 A.Itwastiedtoperformance,andIknewthatDoctor4 RossiandIndustrialHeatwereworkingona5 1megawattcontainerizedversionoftheECat,and6 thedeliverytimesweweretoldbyIndustrial7 Heatis,Everythingjustseemstobemoving8 forward.9 Andsowejustacceptedtheirconclusion

10 'causetheyownedthetechnologythator11 thelicensethattheyhadbeentalkingwith12 Andreaabouttiming.13 Q.DidtheyevertellyouandI'mtalkingabout14 thetimeframeoftheseemails,Aprilof201515 thattheyfeltthatDoctorRossihadbreachedor16 violatedthelicenseagreement?17 A.Theywereconcernedthatthetimingwaskeep18 keptgoingon,buttherewasalotofdifficulty19 ingettingthecontainerfromItalytoNorth20 Carolina.Theyhadtoreworkthecontainerand21 the1megawatt.SoIthinktheywereconcerned22 aboutthetimingonallofit,butthatwasnot23 ouryouknow,weweren'tinvolvedinthat.

Page 581 Q.ButI'mgoingtobereallyspecificinmyquestion2 now.3 A.Okay.4 Q.DiddidanyonefromIndustrialHeatevertell5 youspecifically,WethinkthatDoctorRossihas6 violatedthelicenseagreement?7 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.8 A.Idon'trecall.Imean,IIjustdon'tthink9 thatwaspartofadiscussion.

10 Q.DidyoueverhaveadiscussionwithDoctorRossi11 whereyouyouexpressedconcernsabouthis12 violating13 A.No.14 Q.thelicenseagreement?15 A.No.IvisitedNorthCarolinaonseveraloccasions16 tothelabandviewedwhattheyweredoingthere,17 andIassumedthateverybodywasworking18 cooperatively.19 Q.Andwhatdidyouseewhenyouwerethere?20 A.The1megawattcontainer,lotsofECatsbeing21 workedon,andgroupofpeopleworkingwithDoctor22 RossiandIndustrialHeattogethercooperatively.23 Q.TurningyourattentionbacktoExhibitNo.8,that

Page 591 sameparagraphNo.4,thesecondthelast2 sentenceinthatparagraphstates"Accordingly,we3 wouldliketoresolveanydiscrepanciesonthat4 issueaspartoftherestructuringsothatthere5 arenotanymisunderstandingsaboutAmpEnergo's6 futurerightsasitrelatestotheteststhat7 Rossiiscurrentlyconducting."8 Didyouresolveanydiscrepanciesthat9 youhadwithIndustrialHeatatthattime?

10 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)I'mnotsure11 specificallywhatthisrefersto.12 Q.Okay.Didyouhaveanynotesoranythingthat13 describedwhatwasgoingonaroundApril2015?14 A.IsthatIguessthequestioncanIaskyoua15 question?16 Q.Sure.17 A.Isthatpriortothe1megawattbeingshippedto18 Florida?19 Q.No.Ithinkthe1megawattwasalreadybeing20 testedinFlorida.21 A.Oh,itwas.Okay.Allright.22 Sothequestioncanyoureaskthe23 question.

Page 601 Q.Yeah.I'mjustreadingwhatwaswritten,andit2 seemstomelikethereweresomemisunderstandings3 ordiscrepanciesbetweenAEGandIndustrialHeat4 atthetime.AndIguessmaybeIshouldask5 thefirstquestionis:Whatdiscrepancieswere6 youawareof?Orwhatmisunderstandingswereyou7 awareofatthattime?8 A.Well,theCOP,youknow,andtheperformance9 levels

10 Q.Okay.11 A.thatthey...12 Basicallywewerelisteningtowhat13 IndustrialHeattoldus.14 Q.Right.15 A.AndwehadvisitedDoctorRossionceasagroup16 andsawwhatwesaw.17 Q.Right.18 A.Andthey"they,"beingIndustrialHeatwe19 assumedtheyhadsomebodythere;thateverything20 wasallright.21 Q.Areyou22 A.SothethediscrepancyII'mjustnot23 surewhatthatyouknow,otherthantiming.

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Page 611 Q.Okay.Whenyousay"otherthantiming"2 A.Timingofwhenthetheteststartedandwhenit3 ended.4 Q.DidyouhavediscussionswithIndustrialHeat5 aboutthetimingofthetest?6 A.Probably.7 Q.Butyoudon'trememberanythingspecific.8 A.No.Imean,thisthesewereconversationsthat9 wehadongoingwithJ.T.aboutthetest,andthey

10 hadconcerns.Theyhadconcernsthattheydidn't11 I'mtryingtothinkofhowthisall...12 Iguesstheirconcernwasthattheywere13 justlettingAndreagodowhathewasdoing.14 Q.Didyouhaveconcerns,afterhearingfrom15 IndustrialHeat,astowhatwasgoingon?16 A.Wethoughteverythingwasgood.17 Q.Okay.Didyoueverhaveaconversationwith18 DoctorRossiinoraroundAprilof2015,where19 DoctorRossisaid,Hey,thereareproblems;there20 areissues?21 A.Yeah,IthinkthatIbelieveand,again,I'm22 notquitesureofthedatebutwewentdownas23 ateam,becauseitwaswehadameetingin

Page 621 Miamiandwentandviewedthe1megawatt.2 Q.AndDoctorRossiwaspresentduringthatmeeting?3 A.Yes.4 Q.WererepresentativesofIndustrialHeatpresent5 duringthatmeeting?6 A.No.7 Q.Theywerenot?8 A.Well,Idon'tIdon'tknowiftheyhadsomebody9 workingthereornot.ThatwasI'mjustnot

10 sure.I'mnotsureif,youknow,thepersonthey11 hadhiredtobeworkingwasthereornot.12 Q.Isee.13 WhenyouvisitedtheplantinMiami,14 thewhatwasthepurposeofofyoumaking15 thattrip?16 A.Wejustwe,youknow,wehadavestedinterest17 ininseeingthatitworked;andanditwas18 thefirsttimethatallofAmpEnergohada19 opportunitytocometogetherasateamtovisit20 theplant.21 Q.Atthetimeofthatvisit,didDoctorRossi22 expresstoyouortoanyoneatAmpEnergothathe23 felttherewereproblemsorissueswithhis

Page 631 relationshipwithIndustrialHeat?2 A.No.Hewashewashewantedtomakesure3 thatthiswasworkingsothathewouldgethis4 payment.Irememberthat.5 Q.Wasityourunderstandingthat,hadthattestbeen6 successfuloriftheresultsofthattestwere7 successful,thatbothDoctorRossiandAmpEnergo8 wouldbepaid?9 A.Wewerehoping.

10 Q.Andwhatwasthepaymentthatwasgoingtobethe11 resultofthattest?12 A.ThatAndreawouldgethisshareoftheremaining13 moniesduehim,andthatwewould,dependingon14 theCOPthatwasadiscussionthatwasongoing15 16 Q.Right.17 A.'causeifitIndustrialHeathadcommented18 tous,andthatwasacontentionwehadinthe19 languageofthelicensingagreement,that,ifit20 wasn'tover6and,again,Ithinkthisis21 whatthenwewerenottoparticipateorwe22 werenottogetpaid.23 Andweweweretoldalongyou

Page 641 know,and,again,thiswasalittlemore2 sophisticatedthanwherewehadthat'swhy3 wehiredagoodlawfirmtohelpusnegotiate4 throughthis,wastogetabetterunderstandingof5 thedragalong,tagalongcommitmentsthatwere6 putinthelicenseagreementthatwefeltthat,if7 hehadreached6,thenwewouldwewouldget8 paid.9 Q.SoifhereachedCOPandwhatdoes"COP"stands

10 for?11 A.Coefficientofperformance.12 Q.IfhehadCOPofabove6,hewouldgetpaid13 approximately$89million,andAmpEnergowouldget14 paidapproximately$45million;isthatyour15 A.Well,actually,wewe'dgetpaidalittlebit16 morethanthat,becausewewereofferedifwe17 tookwehaditwasa20percent,Ibelieve,18 bumpthattheyofferedusinlieuofcash19 originally.Soitwas54million20 Q.Gotit.21 A.thatwewouldgetpaid.22 Q.Soifyoutookapieceofitinequity,you'dget23 ahighernumber.

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Page 651 A.Yes.2 Q.Understood.3 AndasofAprilof2015,youwere4 understandingyourunderstandingwasthatthat5 paymentwasstillachievable,basedontheresults6 ofthetest?7 A.Wellyeah.Ibelievethetesthadjuststarted8 alittleso,youknow,itwasonlyamonthor9 so.Sowewantedtoseethethe1megawattas

10 ateam,andyeah,itwouldyeah.11 Q.Now,gettingbacktothediscussionswith12 IndustrialHeataboutthenewentitytheywere13 theywereforming,Ibelieve,aholdingcompany14 forforthetechnology.15 Isthatyourunderstanding?16 A.Yes.17 Q.AnddidtheygiveAmpEnergoanopportunityto18 investinthatholdingcompany?19 A.Yes.ThethetheideawasIndustrialHeat20 hadthelicenseagreementforDoctorRossi.21 Q.Right.22 A.TheholdingcompanyandIand,again,may23 thisistheonethatwasformedintheUK?Is

Page 661 thattheoneyou'rereferringto?2 Q.Ibelievethat'scorrect.3 A.Thatwedidnotwanttowewantedtomakesure4 thatouragreementputgotputintotheholding5 companyandnotleftyouknow,becauseif6 if,forsomereason,thetechnologydidn'twork,7 wewereoutofthat1percentsharethatwehad8 withinthecompany.9 Q.Right.Soyouwantedtomakesurethatyour

10 interestswentuptheupthechain?11 A.Upthechain;yes.12 Q.And,infact,youdidgetthatinterest?13 A.Wedid;yes.14 Q.Ishowyouwhat'smarkedasExhibitNo.9.15 MR.CHAIKEN:ExhibitNo.9hasbeen16 BatesstampedAE340.17 (Exhibit9,AE340.)18 Q.Doyourecallseeingthisproposedstructure19 before?20 A.Yes.Yes.Yeah.21 Q.IsthiswhatIndustrialHeathadpresentedtoyou22 regardingtheirrestructuringoftheircorporate23 formation?

Page 671 A.Yes.2 Q.Diddoyouknowdoyouknowwhenyou3 receivedthis,approximately?4 A.Idon't.5 Q.WereyoutoldthatIndustrialHeathadbeen6 investinginotherLENRtechnologies7 A.Yes.8 Q.aroundthistime?9 A.Yeah.

10 Q.Doyouknowwhatothertechnologiestheytoldyou11 theywereinvestingin?12 A.Theydidn'ttellus.TheyIknewfromprevious13 conversationsearlyonthatTomhadhad14 conversationswithWilliamyouknow,Ibelieve15 therewasaguyinIllinois,GeorgeMiley,thathe16 hadinvestedin.17 Theytheyweregoingaroundlooking18 atvariousIPstoevaluate.19 Theytoldusthat.20 Q.Didtheyevertellyouthestatusofanyofthose21 technologies?22 A.No,onlythatsomewerepromising.23 Q.Didn'tgointoanymoredetailthanthat?

Page 681 A.No.2 Q.Didwhenyoumadethattriptotheplantin3 FloridatovisitDoctorRossiandseethe4 operations5 A.Uhhuh.6 Q.didDoctorRossieveraskyouaboutwhetheror7 notyoumaintainedyoursharesinIndustrialHeat,8 orifyouchangedthemout?9 A.Ithinkhedid.

10 Q.Andwhatdidyoutellhim?11 A.Thatwewerethatwedid,Ibelieve.Imean,I12 Ican'timagineitwasn't...13 Q.Youtoldhimthatyouhadswappedoutsharesfora14 holdingcompany?Ordidyoutellhim15 A.No.Maybewedidn'thavethatdiscussion;no.16 Q.Youdon'trememberhimaskingthatquestion?17 A.Idon'trememberthatquestionbeingasked.18 MR.CHAIKEN:Wanttogoofftherecord.19 Takearestroombreak.20 VIDEOGRAPHER:Okay.Itis10:15a.m.21 andwearegoingofftherecord.22 (Recesswastaken.)23 VIDEOGRAPHER:Okay.Itis9:27I'm



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Page 691 sorryitis10:27a.m.,andwearebackonthe2 record.3 Q.Mr.Cassarino,I'mgoingtoshowyouwhat'sbeen4 markedasExhibitNo.10.5 MR.CHAIKEN:ExhibitNo.10hasbeen6 BatesstampedAE437.001through437.008,andit's7 acopyofthefirstamendmenttothelicense8 agreement.9 (Exhibit10,AE437.001437.008.)

10 Q.Andmyfirstquestionisgoingtobe:Haveyou11 seenthisbefore?12 A.Yes.13 Q.Anddoyouknowwhyafirstamendmenttothe14 licenseagreementwasenteredinto?15 A.I'llhavetoII'mthere'ssomanylegal16 agreements.Ican'trememberexactly.SoIjust17 needtolookatthis18 Q.Goahead.19 A.ormaybeyoucansummarizeit.20 Q.Well,myunderstandingwasthatthisamendedthe21 timeforperformanceofwhatwascalledthe22 validationtestunder3.2(a)oftheagreement,and23 itsetthedateandthelocationforthetest.

Page 701 Ifyoulookattheveryfirstpage,"One2 amendment,"itkindofgoesthroughthe...3 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)Thisistheonethat4 wasdoneinItaly?5 Q.Yes.6 A.Okay.7 Q.Didyouhaveanyconversationswithanyonefrom8 IndustrialHeatpriortothisdocumentbeing9 executed?

10 A.Yes.11 Q.Anddoyourememberwhatthoseconversationswere12 about?13 A.Nottotally,otherthanwewereallgoingtogoto14 Italytowatchtheperformance.IthinkKarl,15 myself,andRonEnglemanwent,andthis,Iguess16 fromwhatIremembersetoutthedates,the17 timesthatthattestwouldoccur.18 Q.Right.Andthisdocument'sdatedApril29th,19 2013.20 Doyouknowifthiswasexecutedin21 Italy?22 A.ItwasexecutedinItaly.23 Q.Anddidyouactuallyseethetestbeingperformed

Page 711 inItaly?2 A.Idid.3 Q.Andwhatwasyourimpressionatthetime?4 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.5 A.Thateverybodythatwastherewasperforminghigh6 energy.Itwasanintense24hours,or7 everybodywasbusy.Andbeinganontechnical8 person,Iwasanobserver.9 Q.Gotit.Now,didthisdocument,thefirst

10 amendment,imposeanynewobligationsonAEG,as11 farasyouknow?12 A.OnAEG?13 Q.Yes.14 A.No,becauseIbelievewehadsignedoverwe15 weregettingreadytosignoverouragreements16 andno.Thiswasjusttobetheretowatchthe17 performance.18 Q.Didyouthinkorwasityourunderstandingthat19 AEGwasanecessarypartytothisfirstamendment?20 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.21 A.AtthetimeIdon'tthinkwehadanywewere22 therewewerepartofthethewholeprocess,23 sowejustfeltthatthiswaspartofwhatwe

Page 721 neededtodo.2 Q.DidanyonefromtheAEAEGgroupexpressany3 concernsaboutexecutingthisagreementthis4 amendment?excuseme.5 A.Idon'tbelieveso.6 Q.Doyouknowwhythetestingschedulewaschanged7 fromwhatwasoriginallyinthelicenseagreement?8 A.Canyouexplaintomewhatthosedifferenceswere.9 Q.Ithinkthethetimingofthetests

10 A.Oh.11 Q.wasextended.12 A.Thetimingofthedays,orthetimeofthe24hour13 test?14 Q.Thetimeinwhichthetestwastobeperformed.I15 thinkitwas100itwassupposedtobe16 performedwithin120daysofexecutionofthe17 licenseagreement,andIbelievethisfelloutside18 ofthat.19 A.Idon'tIdon'trecallexactlywhy.Itjust20 everybodywastryingtomoveforwardinsetting21 everythingup.Maybethatwasthesome22 technicalthings.Idon'tknow.Ican'trecall.23 Q.Ishowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedasExhibitNo.11.

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Page 731 (Exhibit11,AE436.)2 MR.CHAIKEN:Exhibit11isaseriesof3 emailsBatesstampedAE436.Andit'sdated4 thethemainemailonthepageisdatedMay5 8th,2013.It'sfromRonaldEngleman,Jr.,to6 severalpeople,includingyourself.7 AttheendoftheemailRonwrites"The8 testingwasdeemedasuccessbyallparties9 present."

10 Wasthatyourimpressionafterthetest11 concluded?12 A.That'swhatyeah.That'swhateverybody13 thatwasourimpressionbecauseeverybodywanted14 tomoveaheadwithit.Thatwasand,again,15 frommypointofview,Iwasn'ttechnicalenough16 tounderstandallofthethermalcouples,you17 know,theallofthetechnicalsideofthis.18 Q.Now,whatwasyourunderstandingastothe19 significanceofthistestanditsresultsasit20 relatestoAmpEnergo'sreceivingpaymentfrom21 IndustrialHeat?22 A.Well,iftheyweretomoveforwardwiththis,we23 wouldgetpaid.

Page 741 Q.Okay.And,infact,theydidmoveforward,and2 youdidgetpaid3 A.Yes.4 Q.isthattrue?5 A.That'strue.6 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform7 belatedly.8 A.ButcanIsaysomething?9 Thereitwasthatwasastep

10 towardsthepayments.Thiswas11 Q.Isee.12 A.'causetheywereraisingmoney13 Q.Right.14 A.toputittogether.Sothatwas15 Q.AtthetimeApril/May2013didtheyhavethe16 moneytopayAmpEnergo?17 A.No.18 Q.How19 A.Theywereraisingthemoney.20 Q.Howdoyouknowthattheydidn'thaveitatthat21 time?22 A.Well,theysaidtheydidn't.23 Q.That'sagoodway.

Page 751 Didyoueverhaveanydiscussionswith2 anyonefromIndustrialHeatafterthetest3 concludedwheretheycamebackandtoldyou,Hey,4 wethinkthatthattestwassomehowflawed,orthe5 protocolwasimproper,orwethinkthethedata6 fromthattestwaswrongfullymanipulatedsomehow?7 A.No.8 Q.Evenafterthislawsuitwasfiled,didtheyever9 comebackandmakethoseclaimstoyou?

10 A.Aboutwhat?11 Q.About12 A.Thatthefirsttestwas13 Q.Wassomehowflawed,ortheprotocolwasincorrect,14 orortherewasanissuewithit.15 A.Yes.16 Q.Theydid?17 A.Yeah.18 Q.Whendidtheydothat?19 A.WewerecalledtoTom'sofficeIguessprobably20 ayearagono,itwasprobablyinAugustof21 lastyearwheretheywerethiswasafterthe22 lawsuithadstarted23 Q.Gotit.

Page 761 A.andinsinuatedthatwewerepartofafraud.2 Q.I'mgoingtogettothatabitlater.3 A.Andwetobeyouknow,again,weputallof4 ourhope,becauseweactuallywefeltwehada5 greatrelationshipwithIndustrialHeat.We6 workedreallygoodtogether.Wewerealways7 communicating,andwetrustedtheywereinthebig8 leagueintermsoffinancing.9 Thiswasoutsidemypaygradeforsure;

10 andweassumedthatallofthisraisingthe11 moneyandraisingthecapitalandusgetting12 paidwasbecauseofwhattheyfelttheysawand13 did.14 Q.Okay.Ishowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedasExhibit15 No.12.16 MR.CHAIKEN:ExhibitNo.12hasbeen17 BatesstampedAE255.001through.002.18 (Exhibit12,AE255.001255.002.)19 Q.ThetopisanemailfromJ.T.VaughantoKarl20 Norwood,yourself,RonaldEngleman,datedAugust21 12,2013,wheretheyareshowingapaymentof,I22 believe,$3,219,950toAEGasofthatdate.23 Doyourecallreceivingthosefunds

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Page 771 A.Yes.2 Q.onoraroundthattime?3 A.Yes.Yes.4 Q.DidIndustrialHeatinformyousometimepriorto5 thatthattheyhadreceivedfundingthatwould6 allowthemtomakepaymenttoyou?7 A.Idon'tI'mnotsuretheysaidthat.We8 assumedtheydidiftheywerepayingus.9 Q.Right.Areyoufamiliarwiththepartieswhen

10 Isay"theparties,"I'mtalkingaboutLeonardo11 andIndustrialHeatenteringintoortalking12 aboutenteringintoasecondamendmenttothe13 licenseagreement?14 A.Ifthesecondamendmenthadtodowiththe15 performanceisthatwhat...16 Q.Well,Ithinkithadtodowiththetimeof17 performance,aswellasequipmenttobetested.18 A.Idon'trecall.19 Q.Ishow20 A.I'msuretherewas.21 Q.Letmeshowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedasExhibit13.22 MR.CHAIKEN:Exhibit13ishasbeen23 BatesstampedAE295.001through295.003.

Page 781 (Exhibit13,AE295.001295.003.)2 Q.Andit'sadraftofasecondamendmenttothe3 licenseagreement.4 Takeasecondtolookitoverandletme5 knowwhenyou'redone.6 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)IIyouknow,7 I'malittleconfusedastothe6cylinderunit.8 Q.Youdon'trecallhavingconversationswitheither9 DoctorRossiorIHregardinga6cylinderunit?

10 A.Well,theonlymyrecollectionwas6cylinder11 unitwassomethingwespottedinoh,wesawin12 Italywastestedorbeingtested.Theit13 wasanewkindofconceptthatDoctorRossihad.14 AndIandIdon'trecallIthought,you15 know,again,thisisthattheECat,defining16 whichonetheHotCat,ECat6cylinderwas17 it'salittleconfusingformeastowhichone.18 Iobviously,we'veseenthis.We've19 Q.Right.20 A.youknow,didsigneditand,youknow,moved21 aheadwithit,but...22 Q.IsitisityourunderstandingthatAEG23 executedthisdocument?

Page 791 A.Idon'tremember.Idon'tremember.2 Q.DoyourecallhavingaconversationwithDoctor3 Rossiwherehesaid,I'dlikeyoutosignthe4 secondamendment,or,I'dlikeAmpEnergotosign5 thesecondamendment?6 A.Yes,IIdoandandwedidsaywedidn't7 wanttosignit.8 Q.Why?9 A.Becausewefeltthatinnegotiatingwith

10 IndustrialHeatthat,bysigningthis,we11 wouldn'tbepartytothatCOPthe6COP;andif12 itwasapercentagebelowthat,wehadnorightto13 anyfundscomingforward.14 Q.Isee.15 Soisyourviewthatyouweregoingto16 loseyouryourrighttoapaymentofthat17 additionaltranchebyexecutingthisdocument?18 A.Yes.19 Q.DidyouexpressthattoDoctorRossi?20 A.Yes.21 Q.Wasthatverbal,orwasthat22 A.Itwasitwasverbal.23 Q.Okay.DidyouSay,Hey,Ifyouchangetheterms

Page 801 ofthisthisamendmenttoincorporate2 A.No.Ithinkwejustwefeltthatitwasn'tin3 hisbestinterestorourbestinteresttosign4 this.5 Q.WhydidyouthinkitwasnotinDoctorRossi's6 bestinterest?7 A.Becausewefeltthathewouldnotgetthefunds8 thatwereduehimifweifitwasbelowit9 wasagain,andandthisishardformeto

10 recallthisbutinthelanguageofthe11 agreement,itwasandwewehadallkindsof12 attorneyslookatthisitwassortof13 wishywashyofhowourpaymentitwasn'tso14 muchDoctorRossi;itwasourpaymenthowwe15 wouldgetreimbursedthemoneythatwewereto16 receive.17 Q.Okay.Wasityourunderstandingthat,despite18 AEG'snotsigningthesecondamendment,that19 IndustrialHeatandLeonardowerestillworking20 towardsa350daytest?21 A.Yes.Yeah.22 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.23 Q.DidanyonefromIndustrialHeatsaytoyouatany

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Page 811 timeinoraroundOctoberof2013thatthetime2 forperformanceofthat350daytestwastobe3 doneimmediatelyafterthat1megawattwas4 deliveredtoNorthCarolina;andthat,becausethe5 testhadn'tstartedup,therewasnoopportunity6 forDoctorRossiorAmpEnergototoearn7 additionalpaymentunderthatprovision?8 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.9 A.I'mnotsureIquiteunderstandwhatletme

10 sortoffeedthatback.11 Q.Sure.12 A.Soyou'resayingifthattesthadnotstartedonX13 daydayone14 Q.Right.15 A.underthat300whateverthenumberwas16 340daysorwhateverthatnumberwasthat17 therewouldbeapenaltyforthat?18 Q.Idon'tknowifIwouldsaya"penalty,"butjust19 thetimeforperformancehadcomeandgone,and20 becauseitwasn'tperformed21 A.TheywereworriedIndustrialHeatwasworried22 thatthetimingitwastakingalongtimeto23 getthisoneyeartestunderunderway.

Page 821 However,wewereasIhadmentioned2 before,Ihadstoppedatthelabseveraltimes,3 andmymysensewasthateverybodywasstill4 cooperating.5 Q.Okay.Hadhadtheyputyouwell,strike6 that.7 Isityourunderstanding,throughyour8 discussionswithDoctorRossi,thathestillfelt9 thathishehadtheabilitytoearnan80,$90

10 millionpaymentifheperformeda350daytest?11 A.Yes.12 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.13 Q.Andyouknewthisbecauseyouhadadiscussion14 withhimaboutit?15 A.Yes.Imean,thatwaswhyhewassettinguptodo16 thetest,Ibelieve.Andweweassumedthat17 IndustrialHeatandhehadworkedthroughthose18 agreements.19 Q.Now,youmentionedtomethatIndustrialHeatwas20 concernedaboutthefactthatthe350daytest21 hadn'tstarted.22 A.Right.23 Q.Doyouknowwhyithadn'tstarted?

Page 831 A.Idon'tthinkanybodyhadtheythey12 megawattandthe1megawatttookalotlonger3 tobuildthanIthinktheunitthatcamefrom4 Italyhadsomedamagetoit,Ibelieve;andthey5 hadtorepairsomeoftheunits.Andsotheywere6 workingonatthelabinNorthCarolinanew7 unitstoinstallthere.8 Q.AnddidIndustrialHeatexplainthatthatwasthe9 reasonwhyitwasdelayedinstartingup,orwas

10 thereotherreasons?11 A.No.IIyouknow,beingandthisismy12 assumptionisthat,ininthedevelopmentof13 technology,thingsalwaystakelongerthanyou14 wouldhopetheywould.15 Soittome,itwasjusttechnical16 stuffthatwasbeingworkedoutbetweenIndustrial17 HeatandandAndreaRossi.18 Q.Doyouknowiftherewereanyissuesregarding19 obtainingregulatoryapprovalstohaveatestof20 the1megawattECat?21 A.YoumeaninFlorida?22 Q.WhetheritbeinFlorida,orNorthCarolina,or23 anywhereintheUnitedStates.

Page 841 A.Well,therewerediscussions,butthatwasn't2 anythingthatwewereinvolvedin.So...3 Q.Butyouwereawareofthediscussions?4 A.Yeah.Weweretoldthattheyhadlookedinto5 issues,youknow,butIIguessiffrommy6 recollection,thatthatwaswhattheywere7 doing,butIIdon'tknowwhat...8 Q.Doyouknowdoyouknowifanyregulatory9 approvalswererequiredorobtained?

10 A.Idon'tknow.11 Q.Ishowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedasExhibit14.12 MR.CHAIKEN:Exhibit14hasbeenBates13 stampedAE303.14 Q.It'sanemailfromRonEnglemantoTomDarden,15 cc'ingyourself,datedNovember29th,2013.AndI16 believethetimeframeis,thisisshortlyafter17 thepartieshadsentyouthatsecondsecond18 amendmenttothelicenseagreement.19 (Exhibit14,AE303.)20 Q.Haveyouseenthisemailbefore?21 A.I'msureIhave;yes.22 Q.DoyourecallhavingconversationswithRon23 EnglemanandKarlNorwoodabout



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Page 851 A.Yes.Yeah.ThiswaspartofwhatIwas2 discussingaboutthepercentagesandourconcern3 fornotgettingpayment.4 Q.Right.DidTomDardenoranyonefromIndustrial5 Heateverrespondtothisemail,asfarasyou6 know?7 A.Ican'trecalliftheyrespondedtothisemailor8 not.9 Q.DoyourecallhavingconversationswithTom

10 Darden,J.T.Vaughan,oranyonefromIndustrial11 Heataboutthecontentsofthisemail?12 A.Yeah.Wehadwewedidhavediscussions13 withmostlywithJ.T.Hewassortofthe14 pointpersonthatweTomwasnotwedidn't15 havealotofconversationswithTom.16 Andthiswasatopicofconversation;17 yes.18 Q.Now,specificallythetheveryfirstparagraph,19 theverylastsentence,itstates"AEGfeltthat20 ifIHdeterminedthetechnologywasconsistently21 producingaboveunityduringthe350daytestata22 COPthatIHdeemedappropriateandnegotiatedwith23 Rossi,thenIHwouldmoveforwardwithfully

Page 861 licensingtheECatIP,andAEGwouldbeentitled2 tothesecondtrancheequity."3 Doyouseethat?4 A.Yes.5 Q.DidtheydidanyonefromIndustrialHeatever6 disputethat?7 A.I8 Q.Meaning,didanyletmerephraseit.9 A.Yeah.

10 Q.DidanyonefromIndustrialHeateversay,Wedon't11 thinkthatAEGcouldeverbeentitledtothe12 secondtrancheofequity?13 A.No.Weassumedtheywould.14 Q.Okay.15 A.Yeah.AndyoucanseefromthatandI'mjust16 readingthisthattheotherlastparagraph17 there,thatwewerealwayswewefeltthat18 IndustrialHeatandandus,wehadagood19 relationship,asdidIndustrialHeatandAndrea.20 Thatwasyouknow,ititgotintothelegal21 stuffthat,youknow,weIyouknow,22 personally,Idon'thavethestomachforit.You23 know,that'sreallyit'saboutworking

Page 871 collaboratively.2 Q.Didafterthistimeframe,Novemberof2013,3 didIndustrialHeatorDoctorRossievercomeback4 toyouandsay,Wedon'tthinkthatthatsecond5 amendmentwasvalid,becauseAmpEnergodidn't6 executeit?7 A.Yeah.8 Q.Anddoyourecallhavingconversationsaboutit?9 A.II'msurewedid.Idon'trecallexactly

10 when/how,butweknewbynotsigningitthat11 thatsecondamendmentwasnotgoingtobevalid.12 Q.Allright.Ishowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedas13 Exhibit15.14 MR.CHAIKEN:Exhibit15hasbeenBates15 stampedIH124079through124081.16 (Exhibit15,IH124079081.)17 Q.It'saseriesofemailsfromAprilof2014between18 youandDoctorRossiandothers.19 AndthefirstemailI'mgoingtopoint20 youtoisstartsattheverybottomofthe21 firstpage.It'sdatedApril30th,2014.It's22 fromyoutoDoctorRossi.23 Andyouwritetohimandyouhaveto

Page 881 turnthepagetothesecondpagetoseethetext2 oftheoftheemail.3 A.Oh.4 Q.Andyouwritetohim:"Justtryingtogetsome5 ideaofhowthingsweregoingwiththetestingof6 thebluebox1megawatt.J.T.hadmentioneda7 whileagothatyouweregoingtogetitrunning8 soon.Weareveryinterestedastohowitis9 going,becauseAmpEnergo'ssecondtrancheoffunds

10 aretiedtothe350daytestandCOP.AsI11 suspect,yourpaymentistoo."12 A.Yes,I13 Q.Imean,if14 A.Imean,Idon'trecallit,but,obviously,II15 wrotethat.16 Q.WhatdiscussionswereyouhavingwithIndustrial17 Heataboutthe350daytestatthistime?18 A.TheymymysenseofwhereTomwasin19 conversationswithheandJ.T.was,theywere20 lettingAndreamoveaheadwithit.Youknow,we21 werealwaysnotquestioning,butwewere22 concernedthattheyweren'tasinvolvedinthe23 1megawatttestaswewouldhavebeen,youknow.

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Page 891 Q.Whatwhatgaveyouthoseconcerns?2 A.ThatthattheywerenotJ.T.J.T.or3 therewasaguy,T.Barker...4 Q.T.BarkerDameron?5 A.Yeah.Yeah.6 Youknow,thattheywereallinvolvedin7 makingthis1megawattwithAndrea;andwhenit8 wenttoFlorida,theyhadnotbeenasinvolvedas9 theywerewhenitwasinNorthCarolina.

10 Q.Okay.Now,AndreaRossirespondstoyouremailon11 thenextpage,whichisthefirstpageofthe12 document.13 A.Okay.14 Q.Andhewritestoyou:"DearCraig,wehavetoput15 inoperationthe1megawattplantthatweare16 readytoputinoperationsincewhenwedelivered17 itinAugustof2013.Ithasbeendelivered18 perfectlyreadytogo,asithasbeenturnedoff19 aftertheMaytest.Ithasnotbeenpossibleto20 putitinoperationforreasonsindependentfrom21 us."22 Didyoueverhaveanyconversationswith23 DoctorRossiaboutwhythethe1megawatt

Page 901 hadn'tbeenputintooperationsinceAugustof2 2013?3 A.Well,IasI'dmentionedbefore,gettingit4 herewaswasanissue.5 Q.Right.6 A.Youknow,Imean,justfreightanddeliveryand7 allofthat.8 And,yes,Irememberhavingthis.9 Q.Andandhegoesontosayafterhewrites

10 "forreasonsindependentfromus,"hewrites11 "locationwheretoputitinoperation,12 authorizations,etcetera."Andwetalkedalittle13 bitaboutauthorizationsearlier.14 DidyouhaveconversationswithDoctor15 Rossiaboutauthorizationsthatwererequired16 forforrunningatestofthe1megawatt?17 A.Whatyoumeanpermitting?18 Q.Weatherpermitting,orjustapprovalfromaa19 healthorganization,oranythingelse.20 A.WeweprobablyImean,AndreaandIwent21 backandforthaboutthisstuff.Again,wewere22 justassumingthatAndreaandIndustrialHeat23 becauseweweresteppedwewereactuallyone

Page 911 stepremovedfromallofthis2 Q.Right.3 A.youknow,sowewereinvolvedtothepoint,4 becausewehadsomesecondtranchecoming,we5 wantedthistobesuccessful,butitwasoutof6 ourhandsastowhatwasreallygoingon.7 Q.Youwerehavingweeklymeetingswithindustrial8 orbiweeklymeetingswithIndustrialHeat?9 A.BiweeklywithwithJ.T.mostly.Andnotevery

10 week,Imean.But,youknow,wewereyouknow,11 wewerealwayslookingfortechnicalupdates,what12 theyweredoing,andfinance,youknow.So...13 Q.Iknowyousaidearlierthatyourecalled14 IndustrialHeatexpressingconcernsaboutwhythe15 1megawatttesthadn'tstartedyet;andthisemail16 kindofcontradictswhatyouwerebeingtold17 byIndustrialHeat;doesitnot?18 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.19 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)Yeah.20 Q.Didyoueverhaveaaconversationwith21 IndustrialHeataboutthisemailandwhatDoctor22 Rossiwasclaiminginit?23 A.Idon'tthinkwehaditandIcan'trecall

Page 921 aboutthisspecificemail,butweImean,we2 werealwayslookingtoseeahopethateverything3 wasmovingforward.4 Q.AndIgetthat.5 ButI'mjustwanttobespecificto6 thisone,becauseyouremailupaboveonthesame7 pagestatesandandthisisdatedright8 afterorthetimewiseisanhourafteryou9 receivedAndrea'semail.YouwritetoJ.T.:

10 "Justasafollowuptoourconversationtoday,11 stillnotsurewhatheissaying.Icanfollowup12 withanotheremail.Whatdoyouthink."13 Soitlookslikeyouhadaconversation14 withJ.T.Vaughanaboutthisemail.15 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.16 A.Well,I'mI'mnotsureitwasaboutthisemail.17 Itprobablywas.Butwewereconcernedaboutwhy18 wasn'titmovingforward.19 Q.Allright.DidyoueversaytoJ.T.Vaughan,Hey,20 Andreadoesn'tthinkit'shisfaultthatthis21 thinghasn'tstartedyet.He'ssayingthatthere22 areotherissues.Whatdoyousay,J.T.?23 A.Thatwasprobablypartoftheconversation.I



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Page 931 mean,wewerewewereconcernedthat,asthis2 startedtoasanengineeringcompany,wedidn't3 feelthatthiswasbeingengineeredorputinto4 II'mjusttryingtofindtherightwayto5 expressthis.6 It'snotthewaywewouldhavedone7 this.8 Q.Iunderstandthat,butI'mifyoudon'trecall,9 that'safineanswer.Butdoyourecallasking

10 J.T.whathefeltaboutDoctorRossi'semail11 thisspecificone;anddoyourecallwhathe12 responded?13 A.Idon'trecallifweprobablyhadthe14 conversation,butI'mnotsurewhathewouldhave15 answered.16 Q.Okay.DidyouevercallDoctorRossiafteryou17 receivedthatemailandsay,Hey,whatcanIdoto18 help,youknow,getthisprocessmovingalong?19 A.Probably,youknow,'causethatwasIwas20 communicatingwithbothteams;andso,youknow,21 wewouldwewouldprobablyhavehadthat22 conversation,'causeitwasineverybody's23 interesttomovethisforward.

Page 941 Q.Right.2 IsthereareasonwhyDoctorRossi3 wasn'tincludedintheupdatesthebiweekly4 updatesyouweregettingfromIndustrialHeat?5 A.Nothingspecific;no.No.6 Q.Didyougetasenseatanypointintimethat7 therewasalackofcommunicationbetween8 IndustrialHeatand9 A.Yes.

10 Q.DoctorRossi?11 A.Yes.12 Q.Andwhendidyougetthatsense?13 A.I'mnotsurewhen,but14 Q.Atleastbythetimeofthisemail?15 A.Yes.16 Q."Thisemail,"beingtheApril30,2014?17 A.Yeah.IwewewerejustweIguess18 ouritwasn'tconcernsomuch,becausewewe19 areathirdpartyoutsideofallofthisis20 that,wereallywantedtounderstandhowthetest21 wasgoing.22 Q.Atsomepointintimeisityourunderstanding23 thatwhetheritbeIndustrialHeatorDoctor

Page 951 Rossiwaslookingtofindacustomertousethe2 theheatgeneratedbythe1megawattECat?3 A.Yes.4 Q.Whendidyoufirstlearnthat?5 A.Oh,IIthinktheywerealllookingfrom,you6 know,thethetimeitgotdelivered;and,then,7 IwasonvacationintheGrandCanyon,andIgota8 callfromDoctorRossisayingthathehadfounda9 customer;andthatIshouldtellIndustrialHeat

10 thatthiscustomershouldbelookedat.11 MR.CHAIKEN:Okay.I'mgettinga12 littlenotethatweshouldtakeabreaktochange13 atape,andthisisprobablyagoodspottotake14 thatbreak.Solet'sgoofftherecord.Stop15 here.16 VIDEOGRAPHER:Okay.It's11:02,andwe17 aregoingofftherecord.18 (Recesswastaken.)19 VIDEOGRAPHER:Itis11:15a.m.,andwe20 arebackontherecord.21 Q.Mr.Cassarino,beforewetookthatbreak,Iwas22 askingquestionsaboutwhetherornotyouwere23 awareofaofacustomerorwhetherornot

Page 961 thepartieshaddiscussedgettingacustomerfor2 purposesofthe350daytest.3 Didyouhavediscussionswitheither4 IndustrialHeatorDoctorRossiregardingthat?5 A.Yes.6 Q.WhatdiscussionsdidyouhavewithIndustrialHeat7 aboutit?8 A.Iwejustaskedhimiftheyknewoftheclient9 inFlorida.

10 Q.Andwhatdidtheysay?11 A.Theyhadnot.12 Q.Okay.Didtheytellyoutheydidsomedue13 diligenceonit?14 A.Idon'tbelievethattheydid.Maybemaybe15 J.T.wentforavisitthereorsomething,butI16 don'tthinkwhenwebeforetheImean,17 thetheplantwasinNorthCarolina;Andreahad18 madecontactinMiamiwiththiscompany;andit19 hadn'tbeenshippedyet.20 SothatwasAndreahadfoundthe21 client.22 Q.Now,priortothat,wasityourunderstanding23 orwasitAmpEnergo'sunderstandingthata



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Page 971 customerwasrequiredforpurposesofthe2 contract?3 A.Notacustomerrequired.Itwastorunitforthe4 amountofImean,youknow,technically,it5 wouldhavebeenverydifficultbecauseofthe6 therequirementsforthewaterareyouknow,7 wherewillyouventtheheat,andallthat.8 SoIthinkthatwasanissuethathad9 been,youknow,aclientwasand,again,I

10 I'msorryIapologize.ButI'mnotsure11 eveninthecontractoranythingwhetherornot12 therewastherewasarequirement.Itwas13 allitwasreallytorunatestforoneyear.14 Ithinkthat'swhatitwas.15 Q.DidyoueverhaveconversationswithIndustrial16 Heataboutwhatequipmentwasgoingtobeusedfor17 thetestthe350daytest,whetheritbea618 cylinderora1megawatt?19 A.Weassumeditwouldbe1megawatt.20 Q.I'mnotaskingaboutyourassumption.I'masking21 ifyouhadanyconversations.22 A.Well,Isawthe1megawattininNorthCarolina23 thedayortwodaysbeforeitwasgoingtobe

Page 981 shipped.So,again,thatwasI'mnotsureif2 therewasadiscussionaboutit.Itwasthe3 onemegawattwastheonethatwasgoingtobe4 tested.5 Q.Ishowyouwhat'smarkedasExhibit16.6 MR.CHAIKEN:Exhibit16hasbeenBates7 stampedAE304.001through.002.8 (Exhibit16,AE304.001304.002.)9 Q.Thereisanemailininonethirdoftheway

10 downthepagefromKarlNorwoodtoTomDardenand11 cc'ingyourselfandotherpeople.Andit's,I12 believe,forwardinganemailthathadbeenwritten13 byAndreaRossi.14 Youshouldtakeaminutetoreviewthat.15 I'mgoingtoaskyousomequestionsaboutit.16 A.(Witnessreviewsdocument.)17 Q.Sothiskindofgoesalongwithwhatyou18 saidearlierbeforethebreak:Youhadmentioned19 thatyoureceivedacallwhileyouwereinthe20 GrandCanyon?21 A.Right.22 Q.Andwhatwereyoutoldonthatcall?23 ThatwasDoctorRossicallingyou?

Page 991 A.Yeah.2 Thathefoundaclient.He'dgivenme3 thename,whichIatthattime,Ididn't4 remember,'causeIwas,youknow,justgettingup5 andhavingmycoffee;thatthathewantedusto6 relaythattoIndustrialHeat;thathehadfound7 aandhehadmentionedpaymentofathousand8 dollarsperday,whichwouldreducethecostof9 theoperation.

10 Q.Didhetellyouanythingaboutwhowasoperating11 thatplant,orwhathisrolewasgoingtobe?12 A.Thathewouldsetsetitup.13 Q.Thathewouldworkthathesetupwhich,the14 IndustrialHeat15 A.ThatAndreawouldsetupthe1megawatt.16 Q.Didhetellyouanythingabouthiswhathewas17 doingwiththecustomerthepotentialcustomer18 thathewasusing?19 A.Thathewasgoingtoprovideheattothem.20 Q.Okay.Didhetellyouanythingelseaboutthem?21 A.Notwell,hemighthave,butIdon'tremember.22 Q.Didheusethename"JMChemicals"or"JM23 Products"?

Page 1001 A.That'sthat'sIrecallthatnow.2 Q.Didhedidheeverusethewords"Johnson3 Matthey"?4 A.IthinktheyhedidIthinktherewas5 thatwasaEuropeancompany,andthatthesewere6 anaffiliateofthatbiggercompany.7 Q.AndDoctorRossisaidthattoyou?8 A.Yes.9 Q.DidhesayhewaspurchasingproductsfromJohnson

10 Matthey?11 A.IIdon'trecall.12 Q.Didhesayhewasgoingtosellproductsto13 JohnsonMatthey?14 A.No.IthinkitwasJMwasthethecompanyin15 Floridathatthecontractwaswith.16 Q.Anddidhetellyouwhatthenatureofthe17 relationshipwas?18 A.Thathewasgoingtoprovidethemheat.19 Q.Didhetellyouwhothepresidentorownerofthe20 companywas?21 A.Hemighthave.Iyouknow...22 Q.Didhementionthatitwashisattorney?23 A.No,butJ.T.Vaughantoldusthat.

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Page 1011 Q.Andwhendidhetellyouthat?2 A.AwhileafterImean,aftertheywereand,3 again,Idon'tknowhowwhatthesequenceof4 timingwas,butthatwaspartoftheconversation5 inoneofourconversations.6 Q.ReferringbacktothetheexhibitIjustgave7 youExhibit16didyouhaveconversations8 withKarlNorwoodoranyoneelsefromAmpEnergo9 aboutAndreaRossi'splan?

10 A.Yes.11 Q.Andwhatwastheconversation?12 A.Justthatweweregladthatitwasgoingtoget13 finallygetsometestsdoneonit.14 Q.DidyoudiscussitwithIndustrialHeat?15 A.Wedid,becauseitwasgettingshippedtothem.16 So17 Q.Right.18 A.youknowyouknow,again,thisI19 apologize.Ijustcan'trecallallthedetailsof20 theconversations.21 Q.IntheemailfromTomDardenatthetopofthe22 pagetoKarlNorwoodandcc'ingyou,hesaysthat23 "Thanksforreachingout.He"Ibelievehe's

Page 1021 referringtoDoctorRossi"sometimessendssuch2 emailsdocumentingameeting,butwedidn'tsay3 thosethings."4 DidyouhaveaconversationwithTom5 DardenaboutthingsthatTomDardendidn'tthink6 hehadsaidthatwererepresentedbyDoctorRossi?7 A.Iamnotsurethatwehadwedidn'thavealot8 ofconversationswithTom.ItwasmostlyJ.T.9 Q.Allright.

10 A.MostoftheconversationswithTomotherthan11 whenIwentthere,and,youknowweremoreon12 thecontractsandstuff.13 Q.Now,priortoFebruaryof2015,didIndustrial14 HeateverexpresstoyouoranyonefromAmpEnergo15 thattheythoughtthatDoctorRossiwas16 perpetratingafraudonthem,orwasdeceiving17 theminanyway?18 A.No.IIdorecallthattheywerenot19 successfulinduplicatingthe,youknow,the20 theITtheIP.21 Q.Andwhendidtheyfirsttellyouthat?22 A.Well,IIvisitedwitheverybodythere,and23 thatwas

Page 1031 Q.Anddidtheyexplaintoyouwhattheythoughtthe2 problemwas?3 A.Well,IthinktherewasalotImean,when4 theand,again,Ithisjustbearwithme,5 frommyrecallbutithadtodowithsomething6 swaging;withgasesescaping.7 WhenIwasthere,itwasitwaspart8 oftheceramicsinthecoreandsomeofthewires9 breaking.

10 Soitwastechnicalstuffthatthey11 wereandAndreaandtheyandIndustrialHeat12 weretryingtoresolvethatallthoseissues13 atT.Barkerandthegrouptheyhadthere.14 Q.DidanyonefromIndustrialHeatevertellyouthat15 theyhadreceivedtheyhadrunatestoran16 experimentandhadreceivedapositiveCOP?17 A.No.18 Q.Goingbacktotheissueofmovingthethe19 1megawattplanttoFlorida,didAmpEnergohave20 anyissuesoranyconcernsabouttheplantbeing21 movedfromNorthCarolinatoFlorida?22 A.NoImean,wedidn'thaveasayinit.So,you23 know,itdidn'treallyconcernus.

Page 1041 Wewerejustgladthatthetestwas2 goingtobegin.3 Q.Ishowyouwhat'sbeenmarkedasExhibit17.4 MR.CHAIKEN:Exhibit17'sbeenBates5 stampedIH90966.6 (Exhibit17,IH90966967.)7 Q.It'saseriesofemailsbetweenyouandmembersof8 IHfromJulyof2014.Andifyougothechain9 startsonthesecondpage,90967

10 A.Yeah.11 Q.andgoesallthewayup.Andthefirstemail12 isfromAndreaRossitoyou.Andhewritesto13 you:"Canyouanswermyemailconfirming14 AmpEnergoagreesuponmyproposal."15 AndIbelievehe'sreferringtothe16 proposalofmovingthetheplanttothe17 1megawattplanttoDoralinFlorida.18 AndthenyouwritetoJ.T.Vaughanand19 JohnMazzarinoandTomDarden"Asyoucansee,he20 wantsmetoanswer.Shouldwekeepignoring,or21 whatshouldwesay?"22 Isthereareasonwhyyouwereignoring23 AndreaRossi'srequestsinJulyof2014?

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Page 1051 A.OnlythatwethoughtifitcouldstayinNorth2 Carolina,itwouldbeabetteroption.3 Q.Ithoughtyoujustsaiditdidn'tmattertoyou.4 A.Well,recallingthis,I'mIguessIdidhave5 thatintentthatwewouldratherhaveseenit6 intheirsupervision,workingtogether,rather7 thanitgoingoffbyitself.8 Q.AnddidyouevertellthattoDoctorRossi?9 A.I'mnotsure.Idon'tthinkso.

10 Q.Isthereareasonwhyyoudidn't?11 A.I'causeIcherishedhisfriendship,andI12 didn'twanttogethimupsetthatweweretrying13 tokeepitthereforthemtoworktogether,14 becausetwothings:Oneis,Iunderstood15 clearlythatAndreahadagoalofgettingthis16 he'saverydrivenperson,andsittingaround17 experimentingisnothisstyle;thathewantedto18 makesomethinghappen;andthatthatprobablywas19 it.20 Theothertheotherpartofthis21 isyouknow,again,notknowingwhatittakes22 toputthisthingtogetherorwhatittookto23 demonstratea1megawatt,wewouldthat'swhy

Page 1061 wewerehopingforthecollaboration.2 Q.Whatwerewhatwereyouhopingfromthe3 IndustrialHeatsideofit?4 A.ThattheywouldcontinuetoworkwithAndreaand5 worktogethertoaccomplishthegoalforthe3606 or300whateverthetesthowmanydaythe7 testwastoworktogethertomakesure8 everybodywasonthesamepage.9 Q.Didyouevergetanunderstandingastowhatthe

10 customerinMiamiwasgoingtobedoingwiththe11 heatsuppliedbythe1megawattplant?12 A.Youknow,weunderstooditwasachemicalplant,13 anditwasgoingtodosomethingwiththe14 chemicals.Butthatwas,youknow,reallythe15 thegistofit.Itwasgoingtodrychemicalsor16 dosomethingonwithit.17 Q.DiditmattertoAmpEnergowhatthecustomerdid18 withtheheat?19 A.Diditmattertous20 Q.Yeah.21 A.whothecustomerwas?22 Q.Yeah.23 A.No.

Page 1071 Q.DiditmattertoIndustrialHeat?2 MR.BELL:Objectiontoform.3 A.Idon'tknow.4 Q.Didtheytalktoyouaboutit?5 A.TheywereconcerneditwasinMiamiandnotyou6 know,thatwas...7 Q.Otherthantheconcernwiththelocation,did8 didtheytellyou,onewayortheother,thatthey9 wereconcernedwitheitherwhothecustomerwasor

10 whatthecustomerwasdoing?11 A.Well,IthinktheJ.T.didhaveaconcernthat12 hehadnotmetthecustomer,ortheyhadmetthe13 customer,andhewasconcernedaboutthatpartof14 it.15 Q.DidyouevertalktoDoctorRossiaboutthat16 specifically?17 A.No.18 Q.DoyouknowifIndustrialHeatdid?19 A.Well,thatthat'sIIassumetheywere20 communicating,youknow...21 Q.Didtheytellyouanythingelseaboutthe22 customer,thelocation,orwhatwasgoingonin23 Miami?WhenIsay

Page 1081 A.Theyhadconcerns,'causetheywerenotthey2 didn'tseetheprocess.And,youknow,andwe3 assumedthatitwasontheothersideofthewall,4 andwewereyouknow,theonlyIwasthere5 twotimestoseethe1megawatt;andthesecond6 timewaswhentheERVwasperformingIdon't7 knowifitwasthesecondorthirdindependent,8 youknow,evaluation;andthefirstwaswhenwe9 weretherewithagroupfromAmpEnergo.And,you

10 know,themachinewasrunning,andwejust11 assumed,again,thatitwasperforming'cause12 wedidn'tknowwhatwasontheotherside.And13 andIndustrialHeathadnotIdon'tthink14 evervisitedtheplanttheJMthechemical15 plant.16 Q.Didyourevieworwereyoushownacopyof17 thetestprotocol18 A.No.19 Q.forthattest?20 A.WhatwhatwewhatweassumedandwhatAndrea21 hadsaidandweassumedthatthetest22 protocolwouldbethesameasitwasdonein23 Italy.

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Page 1091 Q.Andyoumentionedtheword"ERV."2 Whatiswhatis3 A.Well,that'sagoodIcan'tremember.Itwas4 theevaluationitwasanindependent5 evaluation.Imean,thepersonthatperformed6 thethatacronymandIcan'tremember7 exactly.8 Q.Expertresponsibleforvalidation?9 A.That'swhatityes.SothatwastheERV.

10 Q.Wasit11 A.AndIbelieveitwasthesamepersonwhodidthe12 testinItaly.13 Q.Wasityourunderstandingthatwasanindependent14 person?15 A.Iassumeditwas,becausetheyhadperformedthat16 testinItaly.17 Iknowand,again,thisisrecall18 buttheindependenttheERVpersonIthink19 hisnamewasPenonwasthesameperson;andhe20 hadworkedforalargercompanyoriginally;and21 thatwasoneofthecompanies,Ibelieve,that22 IndustrialHeatwantedtohavedothetest.23 Soitseemedtousthathewasan

Page 1101 independentperson.Ithinkhehadabackground2 innuclearsomethingorother.Youknow,hewas3 anengineer.Andbecausetheyperformedthe4 testallofthepeopleinItalythatwe5 assumedthemaybethatwasabadassumption6 thattheprotocolwasthesameforthetestin7 Miami.Butweneversawtherewasneverany8 writtenprotocol.9 Q.Thatyousaw.

10 A.ThatIsaw.

Documents

II. Defendants' Witnesses 1. Cassarino, Craig (Ampenergo, Inc.) 4. Rossi…coldfusioncommunity.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/0326.0_IH... · II. Defendants' Witnesses 1. Cassarino,