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14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic Tonglen: For the novice?

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Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56566)by Epistemes » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:31 pm

I'll definitely take notes on what Ribur Rinpoche teaches ‐ but I think I'll still spend somemoney. I'm very interested in those books by Kongtrul and Chongyam Trungpa on thepractice.

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Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56567)by Virgo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:32 pm

Virgo wrote:No one will teach you Tonglen better than Ribur Rinpoche in the recordedteaching I linked to. He explains the history of the teaching, the lineage, heexplains each of the nine steps in detail, all the preperations to themeditation, even sweeping the room first, and so forth It is complete. You canwait 6 months and spend money to go see a teacher and get this Sutra levelteaching, which will probably not be nearly as complete as the teaching Iprovided, and then you will have 6 less months of your life effectively workingon Bodhicitta, and have less money to spend on other Dharma teachings whichyou must get from a teacher, because you spent it on getting this teaching. I amnot saying not to get a teacher. I am saying you don't need a live teacher toteach you this. You can start at once.

Epistemes wrote:

Virgo wrote:No one will teach you Tonglen better than Ribur Rinpoche in therecorded teaching I linked to. He explains the history of the teaching,the lineage, he explains each of the nine steps in detail, all thepreperations to the meditation, even sweeping the room first, and soforth It is complete. You can wait 6 months and spend money to go seea teacher and get this Sutra level teaching, which will probably not benearly as complete as the teaching I provided, and then you will have 6less months of your life effectively working on Bodhicitta, and have lessmoney to spend on other Dharma teachings which you must get from ateacher, because you spent it on getting this teaching. I am not saying

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Excellent.

Kevin



"Redemptive suffering" does stress the real, harrowing nature of suffering. There is very little"emptiness" or transcendence involved. Suffering, though, in Christianity is a good thing: itbuilds character and leads to wisdom.

I can see where somebody might easily get hung up and find themselves entrenched in a greatdepression or worse. I can see how tonglen could possibily lead to despair and ultimatelyleaving the path for good.

I realize that my partner is in pain and suffers, but I also realize that the pains never remainthe same nor does the suffering.


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56618)by AdmiralJim » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:45 pm

I recommend 'Path of Heroes' by Zhechen Gyalstab and Padma Namgyal. It is quite a thoroughtext and over a third of the text is based on preliminaries before moving onto the Tonglenpractice. It also has a four month study programme at the end of the second volume to followif you do not have a teacher.

I'll definitely take notes on what Ribur Rinpoche teaches ‐ but I think I'll stillspend some money. I'm very interested in those books by Kongtrul and ChongyamTrungpa on the practice.

not to get a teacher. I am saying you don't need a live teacher to teachyou this. You can start at once.

dakini_boi wrote:I think the key prerequisite for practicing tonglen safely is an understanding ofemptiness ‐ at least intellectually, and preferably with some experience of it,even if just for passing instants in meditation. Emptiness seems to be whatdifferentiates tonglen from Christianity's "redemptive suffering," as you describeit. This is an important point, because the view of emptiness will actually makethe practice more effective, because then you will not hesitate to take onothers' suffering ‐ which is, after all, empty of self‐nature. It's a practice reallyabout the inseparability of compassion and emptiness.












Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56620)by Silent Bob » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:55 pm

OP, I must take exception to some of the advice you've been given in this thread. First, thepractice of tonglen is easy to learn, deceptively simple in fact, but it is difficult to do at firstand takes practice. Second, it's also in no way esoteric and the instructions are given freelyand widely.

I learned the technique directly from Ani Pema Chodron when she was my meditationinstructor, c. 1980, and I firmly believe that you'd get the same quality of teaching and wouldbenefit just as much by spending time with her dvd of tonglen instructions:http://www.amazon.com/Good‐Medicine‐Com ... 561&sr=1‐2 (http://www.amazon.com/Good‐Medicine‐Compassion‐Tonglen‐Meditation/dp/B000G1SZQ4/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies‐tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1316024561&sr=1‐2)

Trungpa Rinpoche's little book, "Training the Mind and Cultivating Loving‐Kindness" is aexcellent overview of the Lojong system in general and contains detailed instructions on thepractice of tonglen in particular.

You might also find this site useful: http://lojongmindtraining.com/default.aspx(http://lojongmindtraining.com/default.aspx)

And please, all you experts, it's not necessary to get on my case because the above sitecontains quotes from the infamous Osho, as well as from a number of reputable teachers‐‐even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.

Chris



Silent Bob wrote:I learned the technique directly from Ani Pema Chodron when she was mymeditation instructor, c. 1980, and I firmly believe that you'd get the samequality of teaching and would benefit just as much by spending time with herdvd of tonglen instructions:http://www.amazon.com/Good‐Medicine‐Com ... 561&sr=1‐2(http://www.amazon.com/Good‐Medicine‐Compassion‐Tonglen‐

Meditation/dp/B000G1SZQ4/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies‐tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1316024561&sr=1‐2)

Trungpa Rinpoche's little book, "Training the Mind and Cultivating Loving‐Kindness" is a excellent overview of the Lojong system in general and containsdetailed instructions on the practice of tonglen in particular.





http://www.amazon.com/Good-Medicine-Compassion-Tonglen-Meditation/dp/B000G1SZQ4/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1316024561&sr=1-2

http://lojongmindtraining.com/default.aspx





http://www.amazon.com/Good-Medicine-Compassion-Tonglen-Meditation/dp/B000G1SZQ4/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1316024561&sr=1-2



It is reassuring to hear that this practice is not as protected and hush‐hush as some havemade it out to be. I, of course, can see where many people would urge caution for aprofessed "novice," though. The cautious path is perhaps better on a internet forum like thisso that other readers who may happen to be true novices don't get in over their heads. Fromthis angle, I can understand that a teacher is best to judge whether or not a person is ready.

I have already listened to Pema's audio for "Good Medicine." Would the visual images of theDVD be more beneficial?



I don't know. She has a nice presence, but since you already have the audio that's surelyenough.

Chris


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56628)by conebeckham » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:58 pm

I'm with Chris....those resources are great, and you should study and practice‐I see no needto "wait" to get instruction from a living, breathing teacher.....BUT:

Remember a couple key points: "Start with yourself"‐‐i.e., don't forget that when you arepracticing taking and sending, you should start with yourself as the focus. And it's good toremember that, in the beginning, this is an aspirational practice‐‐we must have somerealistic idea that we cannot, in our present circumstances, and at our present level ofdevelopment, actually TAKE on the complete sufferings of others, though we should aspire tobe able to...I feel this is especially important for you, given your circumstances with asignificant other with health problems. I hope you find this helpful, and practical.


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56629)by Malcolm » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:12 pm

No one can ever take of the sufferings others since no one can take on the karma of others.

The purpose of exchanging oneself and others is develop the courage to deal with helping

Epistemes wrote:I have already listened to Pema's audio for "Good Medicine." Would the visualimages of the DVD be more beneficial?















people in samsara. But there is no danger that one will ever actually take on the suffering ofothers from this or any other Buddhist practice.

N


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56630)by deepbluehum » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:26 pm

This is a very excellent point, but someone practicing this can experience increased sufferingand an increase in the five poisons. This is due to not having properly become familiar withthe view. We have apathetic minds that can sense others' suffering, and when we imaginethat it might appear more and more in our own mindstreams. This is clearly an illusion, andcan become a problem.


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56633)by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:43 pm

Karma is a law. Miracles suspend laws. Do miracles exist pertaining to karma?



Negative, Captain.


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56636)by Malcolm » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:59 pm

Namdrol wrote:No one can ever take of the sufferings others since no one can take on thekarma of others.

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Karma is a law. Miracles suspend laws. Do miracles exist pertaining to karma?



















I don't agree with this claim.

Sending and receiving is an inherently virtuous act. There is no way that this practice canincrease one's own suffering since the wish to relieve others of their suffering is inherentlyvirtous and and a negative result can never stem from a virtuous act.

N



As my teacher, Thrangu Rinpoche, has explained on many occasions, tonglen is "mind‐training" and practiced correctly will make the boundaries between you and others morepermeable. Exchanging ourselves for others in this way will stand the "me first" logic of egoon its head; it will not increase our own suffering or cause us to get sick.

http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teac ... onglen.htm(http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/tonglen.htm)

Chris



deepbluehum wrote:

This is a very excellent point, but someone practicing this can experienceincreased suffering and an increase in the five poisons.

Namdrol wrote:No one can ever take of the sufferings others since no one can take onthe karma of others.

Namdrol wrote:

deepbluehum wrote:

Namdrol wrote:No one can ever take of the sufferings others since no onecan take on the karma of others.





http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/tonglen.htm







I agree that tonglen is good karma, but I don't agree that initially one cannot experiencesuffering if they have not entered the bhumis for the following reason. There is the story ofAnanda who gave his eye to someone who asked for it, before Ananda had reached the firstbhumi. Then, the person just squished it. And Ananda asked why he did that? He answered helikes the squishing sound. This caused the increase in Ananda's poisons.

An act is not a paramita without some experience of the view. Each paramita needs the viewof the sixth paramita or it is not a paramita and not liberative. One needs to give up the viewthe three spheres of actor, action and recipient. If someone practices tonglen with a dualisticview, then it can cause an increase in suffering because they already must contend with pastnegative karma. Envisioning the negative karma of others in one's own body can lead to thesense of one's own suffering increasing. This of course is illusory, but that is the sense peopleget.

There are people who are very sensitive have said they felt overwhelmed by the suffering ofall sentient beings, feeling a weight on their hearts, etc. This is aversion and pain. Sure withperseverance, one will get past this and begin to experience happiness, but this initialnegative sensation can cause one to regret the path, and that is serious negative karma.

I am only putting this out there for consideration and reflection, it is not intended topersuade someone to adopt my view.


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56657)by swampflower » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:49 am

In my own practice, Tonglen is what brought me to Buddhism.I am unsure why Tonglen is considered to be a practice that could turn someone from thepath.Tonglen is not merely taking on the suffering of self and others but is the transformation ofthese sufferings to a power of good for all sentient beings.Look to the positive, not to the negative.There have been excellent resources presented. Take up the study and pursue Tonglen if thisis in your heart to do.

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I don't agree with this claim.

Sending and receiving is an inherently virtuous act. There is no way that thispractice can increase one's own suffering since the wish to relieve others oftheir suffering is inherently virtous and and a negative result can never stemfrom a virtuous act.

N

This is a very excellent point, but someone practicing this canexperience increased suffering and an increase in the five poisons.








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Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56667)by not1not2 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:10 am

Epistemes wrote:

Kevin,

I appreciate your comments; however, the feedback I've gotten is quite varied.Perhaps that variance is due to the impersonal nature of these forums and myown personal characterization of "novice." How much of a novice am I, really?That word really doesn't make any sense. We're all novices until the day we dieand then we rinse and repeat.

I asked about tonglen because my partner suffers. I can't say she suffers morethan other people ‐ but sometimes it seems like she can't catch a break. Whenshe was 2, she was diagnosed with leukemia, relapsed, and beat a .01% chanceof survival. Her latter medical history is complicated as a result of theradiation and chemo she received as a child. Needless to say, there is almostalways physical discomfort of some sort whether mild or somewhat intense.Recently, she just got past a pretty bad bug bite which had all of her jointsinflamed, leaving her unable to walk or move. For the past week, she's wokenup with sore muscles, swollen digits, and more nausea.

She's not an abstract thinker ‐ not in the least. I think it's more of an inabilitythan an inclination. And she has some psychological issues accepting aging anddeath given the fact the leukemia almost killed her. She was almost deprived oflife at an early age ‐ so she's reluctant to accept that a day will ever come.

Our relationship is built on a sense of balance. I talk to her about some of themore basic premises of Buddhism, but she's not a particularly religious orspiritual person. I try to live by example more than anything else. She's a goodperson, though, with good karma, I believe.

I want to help her. I wish there was a way I could give her all my good karma sothat she'd end the cycle of samsara (even though I understand that nirvana

Virgo wrote:

Chaz has good advice. A CD is no sub for a teacher. Yet, I respectfullydisagree with him on this point. For a practice like this, there is no rulethat one must receive from a teacher. All you need is a text or a goodbook that explains it in some detail.

This is one of the places that I learned the practice:

http://www.lamrim.com/riburrinpoche/(http://www.lamrim.com/riburrinpoche/)

Epistemes wrote:Yet again, esotericism trumps Buddhism.





http://www.lamrim.com/riburrinpoche/



I wouldn't concern myself with the exactitude of method as much as I wouldintent/aspiration. If you learn the basic approach to tonglen and wish to practice it in such amanner that it opens your heart a bit more to be able to witness her suffering and to reflectback to her a greater compassion, what's the harm? Metta to you both, Earl


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56668)by Virgo » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:13 am

It removes cherishing ones own person over others, which increases ones happinessimmensely. If the instructions are practiced properly, there will be no problem.

Kevin


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56669)by deepbluehum » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:24 am

entails escaping all karma). I want her to be happy and to stop suffering. I wanther to catch a break.

Realizing her suffering, I better understand the suffering of all beings.

During my days as a Catholic, I tried to be mindful of a important practiceknown as "redemptive suffering." Where I see lojong and tonglen encapsulatingthe heart of the dharma, redemptive suffering was Christianity (especiallyCatholic Christianity) in a nutshell. Redemptive suffering is an "offering up" ofone's own sufferings for the welfare of other people who suffer just like one'sself (or worse) with the prayer that they will eventually be redeemed and setfree. At the heart of the practice is loving‐kindness, compassion and equanimity‐ for the very intention of "offering up" one's suffering for the suffering ofothers entails all three virtues.

So, tonglen seems like a natural dharmic extension of a principle with which Iam already familiar. It also seems like the best way that I can help my partnerand, by extension, all beings.

I mean, if Pema Chodron can travel around the country and teach tonglen onthe spot and then feel conscientiously secure in releasing these talks on CD forthe benefit of the public, what's to be protective or hush‐hush about?

deepbluehum wrote:[Envisioning the negative karma of others in one's own body can lead to thesense of one's own suffering increasing. This of course is illusory, but that is thesense people get.











Okay. But different lineages don't all approach this teaching in the same way.


Re: Tonglen: For the novice? (#p56670)by Virgo » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:35 am

I'm sorry, but that begs a question; is there some lineage that teaches it in a way that youbelieve will cause harm?

Perhaps you are worried about if one meditates on emptiness or not?

Kevin

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Virgo wrote:

deepbluehum wrote:It removes cherishing ones own person over others, which increases oneshappiness immensely. If the instructions are practiced properly, therewill be no problem.

Kevin

deepbluehum wrote:

Okay. But different lineages don't all approach this teaching in the same way.

Virgo wrote:

deepbluehum wrote:It removes cherishing ones own person over others, whichincreases ones happiness immensely. If the instructions arepracticed properly, there will be no problem.

Kevin





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