GWR ON-TRAIN DIVISIONAL COUNCIL...Avocet Conference Room, Exeter St Davids Present:-FGW Management Divisional / Company / Sectional Council David Crome (DC) Head of On Board Management

Notes: OTDC Agenda Meeting 210218 Page 1 of 27 These notes are not intended to be a verbatim account of the meeting but to give the gist of the conversation.

GWR ON-TRAIN DIVISIONAL COUNCIL

Staff Side Agenda

For agenda meeting scheduled 21st Feb 2018

Matters arising:

Managers working trains: ongoing item

Peer trainers: ongoing item

Ramp risk assessment: paper required

Oxford TE’s: ongoing item

Star mobile issues: ongoing item

2+4 training: J Edhouse to attend Div Ccl meeting

Catering maintenance: ongoing

P.Tanner products invite: P Tanner to attend Div Ccl meeting

STP diagrams: ongoing

Bristol revenue manager: update

Bristol TE facilities: update

Jumpers for guards update

Secretarial facilities :update

387’s in 12 car formation: agency staff still being used (matter arising from agenda meeting 13th September 2017)

Bristol to Cardiff hardship move still outstanding

New agenda items

Revenue:

G4S travel facilities (MH)

New rostering instruction for revenue in East region (MH)

RPI staffing levels at Worcester (MH)

Non consulted changes to revenue strategy booklet (MH)


Catering:

Review date for restructuring package (ALL)

Epos trial update (PJ)

Cash handling regulations (ALL)

Catering staff breaks away from train

Lack of first class catering on IET at weekends (RK)

Guards:

‘Secure train’ issues within diagrams. a) Train managers (MD); b) conductors (SL)

STP diagrams (SL)

Inconsistencies in information available re revenue staff on IET (CR)

Seat reservation problems on IET (MD)

Cardiff TM need for hard ticket machine (MD)

Review of routes specific to each depot ref page 40 of guards harmonisation 2010 (ALL)

Clarification of movement D.Jones to Redhill (NM)

FTA’s:

Penzance guards ref Ad Hoc managers (NR)

Swansea guards turn 1604 (MD)

Swansea guards turn 1011 (MD)

Joint items

Current vacancies for all grades

Guards establishment calculator review

Council request for formulation of minutes to include an ongoing updated list of the following items:

Fixed term contracts

Part time contracts


Agency workers

Grievances

Disciplinaries

Investigatory suspensions

Proposed welfare moves

Internal transfers

Medically restricted staff moves

Staff stood off

Flexible working requests

MFA/AAC

Staff injuries/accidents

Establishments and head counts

Vacancies

Predictive recruitment

Secondments

Ad Hoc manager usage

Any local agreements (to be ratified by OTDC)

AOB:

GUEST: Justin Edhouse re Class 255 (2+4 HST) Training Package

Possessions Update – document from Andy Adams (will be forwarded via email)

Additional Items added to the Agenda on 21st Feb 2018:

• Catering Restructuring Referendum Update

• Welfare Move: Bristol to Westbury


GWR ON-TRAIN DIVISIONAL COUNCIL

Notes of OTDC Agenda Meeting 21st February 2018; 1030 hours

Avocet Conference Room, Exeter St Davids Present:- FGW Management Divisional / Company / Sectional Council

David Crome (DC) Head of On Board Management Side Chair

Steve Harvey (SH) HSS On Train Divisional Council (RMT) Acting Staff Side Chair

Barbara Fearn (BF) Assistant to Head of On Board Management Side Secretary

Phil Jones (PJ) HSS On Train Divisional Council (RMT) Acting Staff Side Secretary

Diggory Waite (DW) Regional On Train Manager, East

Martin Day (MD) HSS On Train Divisional Council (RMT)

Miles Nightingale (MN) HR Business Partner

Neil Rawlins (NR) HSS On Trains Divisional Council (RMT)

Maureen Mulligan (MM) HSS On Trains Divisional Council (RMT)

Guest: Justin Edhouse, Competence Development Manager, West

Nick Mortimer (NM) LTV On Train Divisional Council

Simon Loftus (SL) West Conductor, On Train Divisional Council

(RMT) Nigel Morland (NMo)

West Conductor Divisional Council (RMT) co-opted v J Crinks

Ryan Kent (RK) HSS On Train Divisional Council (RMT)

Marlon Henry (MH) On Train Divisional Council (TSSA) RPI, Reading

Apologies:

Colin Barber (CB) Regional On Train Manager, Central

Chris Reilly (CR) LTV On Train Divisional Council (RMT) Staff Side Chair

Jamie Kingston (JK) Regional On Train Manager, West

John Crinks (CR) West Conductor, On Train Divisional Council

(RMT) Neil Rawlins (NR)

HSS On Trains Divisional Council (RMT)


Item Topic Action

GUEST: Justin Edhouse – Class 253/255 Guards Traction Conversion Course JE: JE distributed copies of the Class 255 (2+4 HST) Training Package including a

timeline from September 2017 relating to the Class 255 Introduction Project.

The Package has been tailored for all colleagues, not just for those based in the

West Region, so includes emergency coupling training; brake test, rotational test; below sole bar; and a question paper. Training course will be 2 days: Day 1 standalone traction course on shunting and emergency coupling; Day 2 is on train handling – and if everything is ok the Guard has the pass-out assessment on that day. This will take place on the first day that a Guard is released to work the train. The PowerPoint presentation is interactive via a Samsung tablet and is a combination of slides with audio commentary and videos.

Currently the set will be coming from Doncaster around w/c 6 March for testing; w/c

11th March training of managers and assessors and J Edhouse wants to see all Guard Managers; Acting Guard Managers and Assessors; Health & Safety Reps etc. It will be live training and will evolve, so potentially there will be changes with the Package as this goes on.

For training diagrams J Edhouse has made them fit the diagrams which were

created for the Class 255 train and have been signed-off and agreed. The red text on the diagram will be the training period. J Edhouse has forwarded to M Leighfield to check everything is correct with the diagrams. J Edhouse distributed copies, as well as draft proposals for additional services and diagrams for the Trainers.

There will need an approved assessor / trainer on every single service operating the

train – as per IET training. So they will meet with the Guard and do the walk around to check the train.

J Edhouse will be assessed and passed-out initially by M Dent (Ops Standards

Manager) and then will be able to do the same for the Assessors / Guards Managers.

Initially we need 60 guards trained and will have 85 out of 112 as the plan is for the

service to run further than Exeter in the future.

Note w/c 19th March due to an Engineering Possession the set is planned to be in

service but has not been confirmed where or when, so there will be amended training plans during that period.

Q&A: SH: With amended diagrams they come through OTDC - will the final diagrams come via

OTDC for us to check?

JE: Yes that is fine.

SH: Will Flexible Working colleagues be taken into account with this?


JE: These diagrams do not affect those people.

SH: With the PowerPoint presentation – is there a facility via an APP or online so people can see it at their own leisure?

JE: Currently no as the documentation is still evolving and until we know it is 100%

correct and we have a train in this way. Once we know that and any further tweaks are made the we can work with the Learning and Development Team to do something like that.

MM: The 2 days has that been agreed that it is enough time?

JE: I have given more time than was originally suggested but I wanted to make it the

same standard of training as the IETs.

MM: My concern is that 2 days is not enough and even the IET training is not enough.

We would like some follow-up that was readily available for people to look at after the training.

JE: The set itself is a Unit. It is 2 power cars with carriages not an HST, so it is the

terminology used. For the other regions they can have the training material prior to their training / assessments and there will be traction manuals available by then. There is not as much to learn for this set than an HST, and it is a traction interlock power sliding door with engines on the end not underneath so effectively a DMU set.

CR: It is a very detailed presentation and has lots of training elements ie video, audio etc

– thank you. With the test run, when we had the door change to the CDL the Council went on those test runs. S Loftus and B Willey were on the original project group and were reporting back to the Council and it would be worthwhile for SL and J Crinks to go on a test run?

DC: That would be good. Where is the test run expected to go?

JE: The first week when it comes from Doncaster to Laira, we will have an opportunity to

go on it at Laira and that will be testing of door interlock and drivers’ equipment. I will have an opportunity to get on it but the first test run will be Sunday 11th March but I will be on it on Saturday 10th to do door validation and step data collecting. The only other option would be to go to Penzance on Saturday 10th for Sunday 11th.

DC: Let’s leave that for J Edhouse to organise that with SL and J Crinks.

JE: It might be more of an observation rather than some training.

CR: It would be as an overview which would be fine.

DC: There will need to be some flexibility with this as there may well be teething

problems as it is the first of its kind.

JE: I will keep the training package up to date and any changes will go via Ops

Standards to be validated.

CR: Is there an issue with the braking capacity and we are going to a 2+5 formation – is

that the case?


JE: When the initial run was done there were some teething issues and the trials have now proved that the braking efficiency has been resolved. The set will run at 100 mph.

CR: What happens if someone does not reach the criteria for pass-out / training?

JE: If they get a few questions wrong they become review items, and they will get asked

those again when they are due to go out on the train. There is a criteria on ECMS and it will be scored accordingly and then followed-up.

Additional Items for discussion: CR: We have a couple of additional items to raise:

- Catering Restructuring Referendum Update - Welfare Move: Bristol to Westbury.

Catering Restructuring Referendum CR: Both the Staff Side Chair and Secretary were advised yesterday by an Executive

Member of the RMT that due to the changes within the Document over the pay and over Christmas Day and Boxing Day arrangements, they have taken stock and decided as they sent the Document out as a final Proposal, it is incorrect to continue with the current Referendum as the current information for people to vote on is not accurate, and they have pulled the Ballot. We believe this is correct so that every-one votes on the right issues and gives a window if there are things learnt from the Roadshows and comments heard to see if additional changes are required to make sure people vote for final time on a Referendum with the correct information.

DC: What are you doing?

CR: I have not received that in paper format or officially, it was via a phone call.

DC: It appears the RMT will meet again with Christmas Day and RPI put in and ratify (the

document) it and put it out for Ballot is that right?

CR: I think some Members spoke to the Executive Committee and said there are issues

with the original Proposal over some things and part of that will be – even outside the Ballot - about Sunday working and how many they will have to work - as was picked-up on the roadshows.

DC: Will you let us know?

CR: I believe the Union will let you know and then a meeting with R Rowland (GWR

Customer Service & Transformation Director) and B West (RMT Regional Organiser) will probably need to happen.

DC: I will need to have some clarity from the RMT about what is happening. The

changes on Christmas Day seem trivial and the changes on pay were what you asked us for.

There has been an enormous amount of effort invested and time and negotiation

within GWR to get this over the line to get it into the format it is, and I would ask that you are very careful with what you come back with in terms of asking us for any changes or anything else, because that will not be easy.


If it is appropriate we will look at it very seriously. If there is a chance to save it and get it over the line it is worth the effort, but we have to be realistic about what is able to be conceded if it is anything additional, but I will talk to you about it and we will have to have another meeting to go through whatever issues we need to reconsider within it, and hopefully some things can be neutral. If it starts costing a lot of money it will be difficult. Clearly if you put it out to ballot again you need to make sure it will get a positive result.

CR: I don’t think anyone here would have wanted a ‘No’ vote and the Trades Union sent

it out with recommendation to accept it. I don’t think there is a major issue, but one thing that came out during roadshow was the Booking-on and Booking-off time and some possibility of juggling some of that that time.

DC: This will be made easier if I can come to the Council and re-present to you a short-

term arrangement proposal with IET working, which moves away from Ticket Examiners with a temporary arrangement with Customer Hosts, which we proposed before and the Council thought would go through but it got stuck within the Trades Union Executive level but we are not sure why. If there is a delay with the Catering Deal - which there will be - we need to come to you to get a temporary arrangement in – and is not one you are stuck with forever - and gives us some breathing room to talk about the Catering Deal and also it would make the environment a lot more understandable to the Catering Referendum being pulled mid-way, which the Company has gone to great lengths to help get it over the line - the change in pay a couple of Saturdays ago. So, if we can get something on temporary working on the IET for Customer Hosts – I have that and can give an update and it would show willing on your side to such that it would make the environment more amenable to positive consideration to any variances to the Catering Deal and if you could show willing. It is getting tetchy out there with Ticket Examiners and is not sustainable which I have always said and we have done it to get us to the Catering Deal, and we need something in place which would help.

CR: If it is based on the last one that we sent up to the Executive, we would need to do

that again for a system of that nature to be put in place. I am sure with this Council that if there were no changes they would be in same frame of mind.

DC: When it got back last time, I think yourself and B West needed to take it.

CR: Probably myself; B West; S Harvey and the Council to meet with them to put it

forward.

DC: That would be useful and I would be happy to sit with you and the Deal to see where

we can get to, to alleviate some of the issues.

CR: We understand the situation as we are getting comments from our Members.

DC: I am sure you are and it will for the Customer Hosts. That is useful – thank you.


1. Matters Arising - 1.1 Managers working trains

CR: It is worth making you aware there are lots of reports of managers working trains not just on Saturday and Sunday but also during the week which is a major concern. The last report I had that a manager was working was when a guard was on the train travelling passenger – it does not make sense to us. We understand certain circumstances and is why we have the Agreement we have ie when managers will be required to work the train. We are compiling a list to pass to B West as this has gone to Avoidance of Dispute.

DC: The meeting has been arranged.

1.2: Peer trainers:

SH: How long will this be going on for? DC: We are seeking to fade it out but are doing so very cautiously. We are aware

this has not been easy for people and some people are taking a long time to get comfortable with it, but it is dangerous to leave them for too long as they will feel it is a permanent thing.

SH: When will people be covering their own areas rather than covering the whole

country as there is a need for them in their areas?

DC: We are aware of that and those people have been doing a heroic job and you

were clear you wanted these people out for as long as it takes but we do need to start pulling them back. P Tanner (Catering Strategy Planning and Development Manager) has been on the IET since October and we want to start coming off it.

Guards have taken to it more easily, but for Caterers it was a massive change

in the way they work and do things and needs us to continue supporting it for a long time to come. We will have to start switching to other routes. We have trained a huge number of people around the depots and soon we will be starting to train Exeter and other depots. I am happy to draw you into some of these workstreams – ie the work groups you had pre-IET we are still doing all of that, as this is not fixed yet.

I have discussions with everyone in this Business that we are a long way from

this being comfortable yet and the significant change is with Catering, and with over 500 Catering staff in the Business and everyone is different with learning and their approach to change, and some people take to it a lot easier than others. There are some people who are struggling to get through the train with the trolleys and getting used to working a 100% at seat service and it is a big learning curve for us. So, we are still focussed on this for a long time as it is not fixed.

RK: Is there a system in place for who has been trained and who has not? DC: Yes, we do know that. RK: I was on a train with a Customer Host who has been on 3 IETs and has not

had a trainer.

DC: Someone needs to let P Tanner or the OBS Managers know that.


DW: Let me know who the individual is.

1.3 Ramp Risk Assessment: Paper required

DC: I have that and we can send it out to you all DC / BF

1.4 Oxford Ticket Examiners

DC: I have signed that off now for payment. CR: Do you know the figures as they said it was not easily obtainable. Will it be in

this pay packet?

DC: It came to me from Payroll yesterday so we are hopeful.

1.5 Star Mobile Issues:

SL: We are having problems with the batteries not lasting the full shifts and the concern is that we need to get new batteries or a new way of powering the machines.

MM: There has been a new update but there are issues with the batteries. MD: I liaised with the TSSO in Swansea and M Paulin is aware of is that the

batteries are blowing up and swelling the phone.

DC: The battery issue is with the phone?

MD: Yes. DC read out the extract from L Edworthy’s Retail Update (already forwarded to

OTDC Reps). DC: We will ask M Paulin, and the hardware update mentioned, may be due to the

phones. I have picked up the issue regarding Cardiff and the ticket stock issue and

asked if anyone wants to change over but we are looking to purchase some more.

1.6 Catering Maintenance

DC: I think you are right to be concerned and I am concerned as well as my Team. As you have a diminishing band of HSTs and sets going from GWR and the suspicion people have about sets not being fixed, or that they are just being run down generally due to no future in them.

I have discussions with A Skinner and he assured me that this is not the case.

First off when they send a train back it has to go back perfectly with everything working – dilapidation – so the kitchen kit needs to be totally fully functional otherwise we incur fines, so we have to send them back all fixed.

The people who are fixing the catering kit are in the main still in post and you

should be seeing an improving situation because they have less sets to fix, so the Engineers are Laira are still in their jobs at this moment in time and there are less sets for them to maintain and the specialist guys at Laira are still there.


When I spoke with the Co-ordinators at Paddington, B Ready was saying with

relation to the Pullman that they traditionally do set swaps and they know which vehicles have faults and problems and they have masked a lot of it as they are aware if a set is forming the 1803 (Paddington – Plymouth) for example, if it is not perfect with their knowledge they will swap it but the options to do that are getting more difficult to do, and also the options the Maintenance Controllers will let us do is getting difficult to do as you have less room due to sets going to certain places due to exams etc and it is all very much tighter and less room to do the set swaps.

It will not go way and we had 29 failures in Pullman (14 full and 15 partial) in 4

weeks of period 11 which is massive and is really very serious if you are trying to run Restaurants, and is a high percentage of failures and a lot of Pullmans to lose. So, it is quite worrying and the complaints from customers about Pullman failures, and not customers you want to annoy.

I am doing some things but there is not a lot we can do, but I have asked the

menu people to look at creating an offer that can be served when you have not got a working catering vehicle ie when you do not have electrics and cannot cook things.

At the moment they do cold starter and desserts, so I have asked them to look

at a contingency menu ie a cold main course to give the crew a chance to serve a meal within the Pullman.

I am also looking at if we can bring forward the introduction of IET on the

Pullman - the IET will be in West of England in June and the Pullman comes in August or later so can we swap them over sooner and have working kitchens, and we are pursuing that quite robustly.

SH: Can some of the information be relayed by local management to the

Restaurant Crews as they are getting quite concerned about it?

DC: Yes. DW can brief Paddington crews and S McCourt (Senior OBS Manager,

West) and M Fearn (OBS Manager, Plymouth) can inform the Plymouth crews.

CR: Can we advise people that we have raised it with you ie to prove that we have

raised it with you as well.

DC: Yes.

1.7 P Tanner products invite

DC: I am meeting with a number of the Team to review the First Class IET offer, which is part of the evolvement of the IET offer and we will get you involved in that for some thoughts and ideas.

1.8 STP Diagrams

CR: There is ongoing issues with them.

SL: Nothing seems to change and the STP Diagrammers seem not to change some of the details like booking-on and off times when they alter the train times and some of them are outside of the Agreements.


SL: Also, the Stations stops not being on the diagrams. An example here is that the diagram shows trains going to Portsmouth Harbour but they could only go to Portsmouth and Southsea, so does cause a lot of confusion.

We are getting time off to review them and we do feed back to them.

MM: We are missing key elements like double-manning which does not appear on

STP diagrams which is due to safety reasons ie the 2145, and then they try and get the other person to work another train.

We do get time to review them but if they do not come down in time it is too

late to rectify them.

CR: The Reps are doing the work and forwarding the work back that is wrong and it

gets resolved and then the next week the same issues come up and they are not learning from the mistakes and we are not sure why.

DC: I do appreciate your patience and having you there to scrutinise these is having

some value. The STP Diagrammers - and it is not a resource issue as we have put new resource in - their timescales are reducing and Network Rail are constantly asking for possession and reducing the timescales. Sometimes we say no but we then get into trouble – the clear-cut example was the change on January 2nd which happened and only happened as we had given Network Rail amazing amounts of very short notice - including no notice – to do these things.

Some areas in the industry have not been so accommodating which has

caused issues for them – and we are talking about major changes. As a result, we are suffering and it is across the whole diagramming from traction to crews and they are working incredibly hard all the time.

Those people have been doing this for a long time and are up against it all the

time and often doing diagrams for the weekend on the Thursday before hand. I am sorry that it results in diagrams coming out not as accurate as they should be. They do not want to get it wrong, they do give a positive response to you.

The Possessions strategy for this year is massive both with big and small and

adhoc. Network Rail have to deliver Cardiff electrification by January 2019 and Newbury as well as Bristol re-signalling and all the other stuff they have to do.

We will be under pressure this year and if we did dig in with Network Rail it will

cause problems, but we do say no to them sometimes.

CR: We have to keep on the ball with it.

SL: It seems that they are doing the bare minimum rather than doing the whole thing and I am concerned with the PIS systems which have to be up and running by 2020 which is looming.

1.9 Bristol Revenue Manager – update

SH: This was about giving other people the opportunity. DC: We have resubmitted the Authority To Recruit (ATR) for the deputy role in the

hope we can get it signed-off this time.


MH: The issue is that the person was selected. DC: They are very good at the role.

MM: It is causing some issues. DC: I will have another word about it. DC

CR: The person attended a Personal Security Working Group which I was surprised at.

1.10 Bristol Ticket Examiner Facilities

DC: This was at Keynsham. I have been advised that T Graham (Station Manager) has arranged for Ticket Examiners to use a toilet in a doctors’ surgery 100 yards from the station, or they can use the toilet on a train.

MM: The doctors’ surgery is off railway premises and at Filton they are advised to

go to a nearby McDonalds.

DC: If they are not happy then jump on the train and use the toilet or go to the next

station that has facilities.

MM: It is not ideal.

DC: We cannot build a toilet there, and we need the colleagues at the station as it is very lucrative for the Business.

MM: So, for Cash Handling Regulations there is no issue with leaving the premises

to go to the doctors’ surgery or McDonalds?

MH: Could a portaloo be installed at Keynsham?

DC: We could do, but they are very expensive to hire and I am not sure that we would want to do that.

CR: You have given us the options. I think going back to base is a suitable

solution. Cash Handling Regulations are strict on leaving premises and would technically be a break in the Regulations.

DC: I will get some clarity on that. DC CR: The doctors’ surgery is not too bad but if something happened whilst there it

might be an issue and also for McDonalds, so the solution of going back to base is a good one.

DC: They are only there for a couple of hours, not all day, but I appreciate everyone

is different.

1.11 Jumpers for guards

DC: The position remains as it was.

SH: This was NR’s query. You said you would ask the question DC: I have and the position remains unchanged.


1.12 Secretarial Facilities DC: We will ask for one for you.

SH: Thank you. RK: Can we have one for the LDC room in Paddington? DC: No as we have just rationalised the number we have in the Business, so if you

can talk to your local managers and about arranging access to a printer.

1.13 Class 387s in 12 car formation – agency staff still being used

DC: That was for the introduction and making sure people were in the right places on the train for getting off and no long-term value in that – I don’t know if we are still doing it.

SH: There are still people on those train. DC: I think it is just used to get people in the right part of the train, so not a long-

term solution.

MM: Could announcements be made? DC: The trains are walk through and after a period of time people will get used to

where they need to get off.

MM: Do we have any Revenue people on those trains? DC: Yes we do, and I have asked for the diagrams to be re-written for the East

Ticket Examiners so that we can get them on the trains, as there is a lot of money to be taken on those trains.

1.14 Bristol to Cardiff Hardship move still outstanding (Matter Arising from

13/09/17 Agenda Meeting)

DC: Was the individual off sick at the time? RK: I believe so. DC: I would be happy to discuss this further when they return to work. CR: We will defer it.

New Agenda Items: 2. Revenue Protection

2.1 G4S Travel Facilities: MH: We have not been able to get an answer to what travel facilities they have

when not on duty as we had a recent situation where an individual was issued an MG11 and then it got squashed, which is not acceptable as we work with them and now we have an atmosphere when they work with us.

DC: Have you asked anyone what travel facilities they have? MH: Yes, but nobody can tell us – the same with Servest.


DC: Whilst on duty? MH: On or off duty.

DC: I have asked M Hughes (Revenue Protection and Prosecutions Development Manager) who advises that we will get the Duty Passes – no residential or leisure travel facilities. We need to go via the Business Assurance Department, but we will give them Duty Travel facilities.

2.2 Revenue Protection Inspector (RPI) Staffing Levels at Worcester

MH: Rumours that they are closing the Depot at Worcester for RPIs and also it is coming from Managers.

DC: The response I have is that we are not aware of where this has come from, and

there has been no decrease or increase for the depot.

MH: The Local Manager is saying if they do not improve their performance they will

leave the Business. Also, they have been told not to work the Stroud or Gloucester line, and Harmonisation is clear that they work where the work is and it is concerning.

DC: I think some of it is resolvable locally, and we are not planning to close

Worcester and if we were we would bring it here.

CR: Worcester comes under the East Region and the line is Central and that is why

it was raised here.

DC: We don’t get territorial with this.

2.3 New Rostering Instruction for Revenue in the East Region MH: Lots of attachments to the roster saying: ‘message from management team’

and no-one taking ownership or signatures, and some due to new methods of working and note on the roster if it says Paddington trains and I have to stay on them and that has not been the case and we go where the work is, and it was categoric on the roster. I questioned it and I was told that the person doing rosters put that on there.

DC: We believe it is an instruction for colleagues to stick to diagrams or duties and

if not then they should advise their Managers as to why.

DC read out an email from M Hughes on this subject. Members of train crew pretty much comply with their diagrams every day and

to not comply you go via Control or Resources. In Revenue Protection it seems to be a little bit lose in some areas.

CR: This is about RPIs not Ticket Examiners. MH: General rosters as RPIs do not work diagrams. DC: You have a designated place for you to be every day.


MH: The roster is a guide and managers have said that in the past. I may see a Guard on a train who needs assistance and says: ‘can you jump on my train’; so this is saying I cannot do that.

DC: It is about being reasonable, and your job is such that you can be pulled from

here to there and you may have to advise Managers of that. We are not restricting your activity but we want to tie it down a little bit.

The reasons we are looking at this is that there are some people who are not

productive in their duties, and if they are not where we think they are we cannot be confident they are doing the job they should be doing.

CR I know you want Ticket Examiners taken out of this, but we are trying to

tighten that up a bit as it has become a bit of a free for all. I am not saying it is not our fault for letting it go for a long time and not providing good enough diagrams, and we are doing that.

CR: If they are off train or doing something else there is a process for them follow

which is to contact the IC (Person In Charge) and advise them. It is more about saying ‘I have used my discretion to do it’.

DC: The evidence is that they are not terribly compliant with doing that across the

board so we are going to improve the diagrams so there is less reason to not be on the diagram and, we are going to get a Service Level Commitment (SLC) with the Stations Team.

The Stations team will define with us very precisely their requirement for Ticket

Examiners on an ongoing basis, for example: Ticket Examiner on the Over-bridge at Paddington 0600 – 0900, and we will put that in the diagram for the Ticket Examiners so it is clear of what the expectation is.

The reason for this is that there have been some issues between the Revenue

Protection Team and the Stations Team which has led to some nasty Grievances which I have dealt with as have others. So, we are looking to settle this and have documented that a Ticket Examiner will be at this station at this time etc.

With that SLC we will firm up a great deal more with the Stations about when

there should be Ticket Examiners there. It will not stop a Ticket Examiner working anywhere outside of that but it will state when they need authority to work there outside of the diagram.

An example is: someone gets to Paddington and has a diagram showing work

at Paddington 0830 – 0900 and if there is no requirement to be working after 0900 then they should not be working there after 0900 unless they have been authorised to be there. So, if on a diagram then they can work there legitimately if not then they need to get permission, otherwise they need to stay on their diagram.

CR: It is good to see the going back to the old model of working as they used to be

on diagrams and it worked really well. MH is here to represent RPIs only as TSSA and RMT is the only Union for

bargaining rights for Ticket Examiners.


DC: Thank you. MH: It seems extreme. DC: I can share examples of some unsavoury behaviours with you that are

happening.

MH: We have methods of working which have been there for a long time and they

seem to be chipping away at the ability for an RPI to use their discretion.

DC: I refute that. MH: An example is that if not for some people it felt like a threat. It says message

from managers and no signature.

DC: It should be taken up with the Local Managers. MH: I have done but no response. DC: You can take it up with them or even have a chat with M Hughes about it. If

that doesn’t help, then come back to me.

MH: Thank you.

2.4 Non-consulted changes to Revenue Strategy Booklet

MH: A lot of concerns we have as RPIs which I will take up with M Hughes. The last page is about MG11s being submitted in 7 days. When 28 days came in we talked about it here and now this has come out in a document, so when did it change?

DC: It has not changed. The 28 days is your Terms & Conditions (Ts & Cs) ie you

have to submit MG11s in 28 days.

MH: Not Terms & Conditions, it is aspiration. DC: It is your Ts & Cs. Every day it takes to submit an MG11 means it is less likely

to get the money or go to Court to get the money. We are therefore trying to encourage RPIs to get MG11s submitted as quickly as possible. Average time across the whole of Revenue Protection at the moment is 8 days by RPIs across the business.

As at yesterday, the RPI who did the most MG11s in P11 did 24 - which is

quite impressive and the average was 6 days. In the East Region someone submitted 20 in Period 11 - and we know it is administratively tight due to office space restrictions – as the average was 8 days and that is massively useful. If you get them done in that time the customer gets them quicker and the more likely they are to pay first time rather than follow-up and then Court.

We are not changing Ts & Cs, we are aspiring to get them done and it would

be a very positive position. We have driven this down over the years and have driven that down with RPI support and the results are quite startling in terms of the customers paying.


MH: I understand that but it is not realistic to do it, as if you go on long weekend or have a week off it is null and void.

DC: No, you still have 28 days, but we are aspiring to 7 days as there are people

who are achieving this. After 28 days they are almost meaningless and you have almost lost the chance of payment.

MH: There was no consultation on this it has just gone out there. If you go down

the expectation numbers, could we have our admin days we used to have?

DC: The people who are doing their MG11s, how long does it take to submit it? MH: It can take up to an hour. DC: We are comfortable to give the time to do that SH: As an aspiration the people are nervous of any form of discipline coming for not

doing this?

DC: When did we last discipline someone for not doing this? We are going to

encourage RPIs to process their MG11s as quickly as they can, and if people are taking too long we have to improve that and it is best for everyone.

3. Catering Agenda Items: 3.1 Review Date for Restructuring Package

On hold as per earlier discussions

3.2 EPOS Trial PJ: We got 6 training modules and one EPOS so peopl3 are being trained and not

getting a new EPOS, so when will we have them to use straight away, otherwise they will need further training?

DC: I have an update from the Project Manager as follows:

• We have deployed 24 live devices to Penzance, Plymouth, Exeter, Paddington, Bristol and Swansea and have been running this extended pilot for nearly 3 weeks – pretty positive feedback, a few minor issues, which are being addressed

• We are still looking to deploy both RG ordering /scanning deliveries from the EPOS and Pullman and trial them both live before the business signs off the “Contract Acceptance Test. Once this has been signed we can deploy the additional 190 devices quickly.

• Training – mostly done in the Safety and Business Briefs – have trained 170+ customer hosts so far. Working on an enhanced rollout plan with M Hardy, which should start early next month, utilising enhanced Customer Host availability from Paddington to Swansea as IET training is completed.

PJ: March and First Class Customer Hosts having them first, if they go in scanning

mode and will they come to the Buffet and Standard Class Trolley?

DC: That seems to be the wrong way round but if that is what you have been

advised.


PJ: Deliveries come to the First Class kitchen so presume that gets scanned and then we transfer from First Class to the Standard Class Trolley.

DC: I would have thought you scan your own delivery ie your own trolley to your

EPOS.

PJ: There does seem to be a lot of ordering happening and stock being delivered. DC: The EPOS can order for you or you can over-order and the auto ordering does

that, but if you over-ride it and re-order what you have sold you will get more supplies – you should end up with less stock at the end of the day.

I have sought my team to reach an Agreement with Hitachi to leave the trolleys

stocked 6 days per week and give them 1 night per week to steam clean it. The benefit of that is for yourselves having a stocked trolley straight away, and you can clean them quite well as you know.

SH: With the EPOS, it was a trial coming to West of England and form what I

understand it is not a trial and people are being trained whilst it is a trial.

DC: It is still a trial. SH: I believe that we would find out the response of the trial but people are signing

to say they are competent with it.

DC: It is a phased roll-out rather than a trial. We have not paid for the whole

system yet, so we have paid for a number of them and this is a phase with the implementation prior the whole roll-out. So, there are more devices coming.

SH: There should be an operator manual and we are not there yet. CR: When M Tatham (Project Manager) attended OTDC we asked and he said that

once the trial period finished before implementation starts, and that has not taken place.

DC: What would you like? SH: We would like an invitation from M Tatham to come back here as there are a

number of questions on this system. We would like to know: what the issues have been; what the areas of concern are; what has not been implemented yet; how long before everything is up to full operating standard; have the teething issues been resolved and what is the forward plan.

DC: I can ask that. RK: Will we have enough machines? DC: We have a capex in place for additional machines

3.3 Cash Handling Regulations BF: M Pickford has a draft of the new Cash Handling Regulations and will forward

to BF to forward on to OTDC Reps. Any comments please feed back to M Pickford directly or we can invite him to an OTDC meeting.


Post Meeting Note: BF forwarded document to OTDC Reps for review.

3.4 Catering Staff Breaks away from train CR: If Catering Staff want to take their PNB break away from the train they are

entitled to do so.

RK: Physically away from the train? CR: They can be asked to take the break on train. DC: Current Terms and Conditions still apply – we have not changed anything.

3.5 Lack of First Class Catering on IETs at weekends RK: Customer Hosts are getting on and being asked to do everything by Resources

and Train Managers on weekends when it is busy in First Class and it is causing friction between everyone. We need to plan more staff on the train on weekends.

DC: I agree. RK: Saturdays is an issue as well. DC: It is an issue getting people through the door. Why do we struggle to get

people in? We are depending on overtime and the IET is resource hungry and creating a level of work which is astronomical. We have not got enough heads in the Business to cover the work and we are therefore dependent on Rest Day Working as much as we can, which we cannot cover at the moment.

We are going to do an exercise where we define very clearly what the level of

staff is on a train by train basis and compare that to what we have currently. At the moment we are having 4 staff per day on every IET.

PJ: We have situations where we have Paddington people getting off at Cardiff,

rather than working through to Swansea and then you have only one person.

MM: It would be good for the Train Manager to know what Catering resource we

have on board.

DC: You can check. How would we let you know? MM: If we have Ticket Examiners on board we are advised, so with Catering we

should be able to be advised in the same way.

DC: You can check on the system. There will be names allocated via Genius and

you can ring up and find out. Otherwise I don’t know of another way to tell you.

CR: Currently we have said the Ticket Examiner currently in front set should liaise

with the Guard and they exchange phone numbers, so could they not do that if there is no Catering in the front set?

DC: We have sent you the specification from P Tanner which was withdrawn and

we would like to review that and bring it in.

PJ: I don’t think it will work.


DC: We are not going to put 4 people on every 10-car train - which we have said

from the outset. If you have 2 people, one does one half and one does the other half.

PJ: What do you prioritise, the First Class or Standard Class? DC: I would say you do a First Class service and then do a trolley and go back to

First Class during the journey.

PJ: As an example, I did First Class and then Standard Class was too busy and I

could not get through the train, so I was static and sold items from the bike storage area.

DC: We would like First Class given a drink at the start of the journey and then

move to Standard Class and then come back. For example on a Paddington to Swansea service, work First Class - ie at Reading - and then move to Standard Class and say by Swindon to Bristol Parkway come back to First Class and top-up those customers.

PJ: On a week day it could be feasible but not on a weekend. DC: I am asking you to do the best you can do when there is one person on a 5 car

IET, ie doing First Class to some extend and Standard Class to some extent. The busier the train the more you need 2 people and we have to make that call based on how many staff we have in the Business.

MM: We will move to 4 people on a 10 car? DC: We are not going to have that on every 10 car journey and we will need to

evolve it.

PJ: Is there a list? DC: We are trying to plan to put 4 staff on every train. We are not putting them on

because we don’t want to, we don’t have the people to put them on there either by plan or not having the people.

MM: If a quiet train then it gets busy through the journey it is not a great service. DC: We are trying to do the best service we can. We are adding hundreds of Hosts

to this and it will not be enough for 4 staff on every IET for every journey so we will have to have Customer Hosts doing both First Class and Standard Class. The basis of what P Tanner is doing is to move people to that situation.

We have said this to you from the beginning. The reality of that is we would

have a lot of staff standing around not doing anything. I have been on some journeys recently with staff under-utilised and they are not going down helping the person on the trolley.

There are examples of the second set not having that many customers in First

Class so what does the Host do?


RK: When you have set everything up there may only be one opportunity for one trolley run in Standard Class.

DC: You have to be the best that you can be. MM: The concern is that if you cannot get through and the money they are taking

they could take more, and the concern is that if it is not making money it will be taken away.

DC: I have seen examples of people being really good at this and doing really well.

We have not got First Class right yet and we are still working on the specification and the method on this, but we need everyone to come to the trains ready to do the best job they can.

MM: People do but if it is full and standing, they cannot get through and they get

disheartened.

DC: Work statically and you can make an announcement. What would you like me to do? We are not bringing back buffet cars so we

have to make it work and if we do not then the Catering service will go.

CR: This document was sent out after the agenda went out and we did not add it as

an additional item and I think we need to talk about it.

DC: It is all connected to this agenda item. SH: The main concern I have and others have is the First Class. The current

method of work is that you spend time with each customer either in First Class or the buffet and it is about the service we are offering. If you prioritise Standard Class, the First Class people are not getting the same attention that they have had previously and they are spending a lot of money.

DC: If you are the sole Customer Host on a 5 car, do First Class and then do

Standard Class and then go back to First Class and refresh them, and then go back to Standard Class as much as you can and that is the requirement.

We have been clear on this all along and the IET is a different train and type of

service and you have to be less bound on the job they are doing that day and accept they have to be flexible in the journey as to what they are doing.

In First Class on a 10 car you have 36 seats in each of the 5 cars, so you have

split in half the current First Class on an HST, so you have potentially the same number of people in an HST spread in 10 cars, and you have 2 Hosts - one in each half.

PJ: With commission if you cannot get through or are just working First Class will I

be able to claim it – which is being asked by members regarding the Package?

DC: You look after First Class and then work the Standard Class and make some

money.

PJ: It is what we will be asked.


DC: They can sell products to the First Class people. That is the answer to give. PJ: So what was the point of giving us commission? DC: We are giving an incentive to sell products to First and Standard Class

customers, if they are only going to do Standard Class that is not right they have to give a First Class service as well.

CR: When this came out at the Avoidance Of Dispute meeting and Dispute

Resolution meeting it was stating GWR and RMT would come up with defined figures for working each set for how many people – Customer Hosts and Guards – would be working on the train, when will we get that work?

DC: We can start that work and it needs to shake out a bit first. I also need to

understand where our budget is but the principle is not having 4 staff on 10 car sets for the whole journey. So, you need to understand and establish people will work First Class and Standard Class on some trains, and I would ask you not to stand in our way regarding instructions P Tanner has done – it may need some tweaking – but we need to get guidance out there.

CR: We have always said that. Even if it was completely re-written from this

version, we understand it is a work in motion. We understand that there are teething issues, but from our point of view we have to be careful of what we put out and if we put out 2 Customer Hosts on 10 car trains, people will get the wrong idea.

DC: Some people have the idea that there will be 4 people per train and they work

First Class and that is it. They have to get away from that. There are 5 cars and it is not unreasonable to ask people to do dual roles in these circumstances.

I will ask PT to rewrite it prioritising First Class service, doing: First Class,

Standard Class and then First Class.

SH: There some other contradictions. DC: Let me know what they are. SH: There is something about assisting your colleague on the trolley but also about

being visible in First Class

DC: It is if you want it to be. It is being visible when in First Class, not hiding in the

kitchen.

SH: Offering hot / cold drinks and biscuits, but not the other products.

DC: The point he is making is about putting menus out in First Class. SH: This is when one person is working the train, ie you hand out a menu and then

go off into Standard Class, it is not a good service. It is about having a contingency for certain situations.

You mentioned a box option to give out which would be good.


DC: We may look at that for weekends which are mostly upgrades. SH: Three Customer Hosts on train - which will happen - and surely one of the First

Class should be locked out or advised they will get a reduced First Class service in this part.

DC: That could work but you would not lock First Class out of use. Ideally with the

Customer Host in the back half that would be where you direct them to, but they may change. Also, the Train Manager may want to assist doing some catering in First Class as other TOCs do. I think a lot of our Train Managers could offer a First Class service.

CR: Tea, coffee, biscuits scenario? MM: Our Train Managers do that on weekends when it is busy or they are short. MD: Do you want to put this out especially as the Referendum is going out again as

people will interpret this wrongly and it might make their minds up. Would it be better to hold off for a few weeks especially if there is a different product at weekends?

DC: I can do that but in the meantime, I need to get P Tanner and others to talk to

Customer Hosts about the need to do 2 roles and you will have to talk to people and be honest with them that they need think beyond that. There are some great people out there, and others are happy just doing First Class and that is it.

I will take your comments on board.

MD: With the diagrams, it would be better not to have First Class Trolley or

Standard Class Trolley, it would be better saying IET maybe - ie take out the anomalies.

DC: That is good advice. CR: I think it is good to look through the sets and looking at what is best. DC: We did have it in the previous drafts of the Catering Deal but we took it out. CR: That was not what we agreed, it was what the Company produced. DC: I understand that. It was originally predicated on having a high number of staff,

so if you want to start looking at that

CR: We can do that at the next Staff Side. On page 4 of P Tanner’s document regarding clearing and rubbish clearing

what do you mean?

DC: A bin bag and asking people to put their rubbish in them. CR: What about the people who are employed to do that will their employment be

affected by this?


DC: No. they will do the toilets and empty the bins. We are asking the Customer Hosts that if they have done a service and everything else, walk through with a bin bag and ask customers to fill it up.

4. Additional Agenda Item: Hardship Move - Bristol to Westbury Staff Side read out the request from the applicant for this Move. DC: Yes that is agreed and the applicant can go the week after next.

5. Guards Agenda Items 5.1 ‘Secure train’ issues with diagrams: a) Train Mgrs (MD); b) Conductors (SL)

MD: Issues at Swansea and we don’t seem to be getting anywhere and have had information from M Cambourne (Head of Train Planning) that they are on top of it and will brief the STP team (5th Feb).

In relation to the last couple of weeks no change, and one diagram had ‘secure

train’ with 10 minutes; one had 6 minutes; another with 4 minutes; some don’t have it, even though it is IET so it is very patchy and causing issues with ATW platform staff, and the driver who wants to take it back to the yard and Resources get involved etc and it is a mess.

DC: I am aware of it and had a conversation with M Cambourne and they know they

have to resolve it. It was referred back to his Team from Control and I will go back and ask for it to be robust that every set is secured if going to Depot.

MD: Guidance from Class 180 was 10 minutes but we asked for a time and motion

study for a 10 car set and the Local Manager is going to do that.

SL: We have 5 cars going to Cardiff and we will soon get 6 car sets and I would

suggest it would be 8 minutes for 6 cars and 5 minutes for 5 cars and we asked for paperwork on this but there isn’t any, as C Downe advised there was a cap on 5 minutes.

The whole process of securing trains has changed and an instruction to speak

to the driver; go back through the train; deal with left luggage; and also for non-gangway you go though both parts by getting on and off; also the security checks etc.

DC: Class 158s? SL: Class 150s and Class 158s. DC: It may be pertinent to do a timing exercise on a Class 158 at Cardiff. SL: We will have Turbos going into Cardiff in the future. Local Managers are

supportive of this. Thank you.

CR: We will have to look at it as there may be other areas this will need looking at. MD: With Arriva staff are we paying them to secure the trains?


DC: I don’t believe so. Agreed to discuss the remaining Guards Agenda Items and Joint Items to the next

meeting – 9th March 2018.

6. Failures To Agree 6.1 Penzance Guards ref Adhoc Managers (NR)

Agreed to defer this item in NR’s absence.

6.2 Guards 1604 (MD) MD: I have discussed this locally and S Giffard (Guard Manager, Swansea) did her

best but on the first one we have done it for the last 10 years: 10 hour 22 minute diagram (1605 book-on) both trains ran back working; terminating early at Neath due to a possession, and could not extend the Turn, and cancelled the Turn and reverted the person to Spare; then subject to a 2 hour movement and added 52 minutes to the book-off time - more than the maximum additional time could have done - and said you have done it for 10 years, and since 2010 they should not have been able to do it.

DC: Is there a fix? MD: They should have reverted to Spare and they should have brought someone

else in.

DC: Is that the fix? MD: Yes.

6.3 Swansea Guards Turn 1011 (MD) MD: 7 hour 30 minutes and LTP was 8 hour 49 minutes and highlighted as longer

and LTP, and now is an IET train and they said you have to work it.

Amended for this week and is blank. So, believe they have solved it but in

Genius you have to work it.

DC: S Giffard thought you were happy it has been amended. MD: On Monday to Tuesday is a Flexible Worker who cannot work over hours. The

LTP diagram we were given differs to the one issued and is 1 hour per day so equivalent to an extra Rest Day.

DC: So, both are illegal and need amending?

MD: Or reissue as a 9*** diagram. DC: It is out of Terms. Next Meeting dates: • 9th March – GWR OTDC Agenda meeting / Catering discussions

• 12th March – GWR OTDC Guards Restructuring meeting

• 20th March – GWR OTDC Sleeper Restructuring meeting


• 21st March – Catering / Guards Restructuring meeting

• 27th March – Catering / Guards Restructuring meeting

• 4th April – Catering / Guards Restructuring meeting ** may be 5th April due to Bristol re-signalling work

• 12th April – Catering / Guards Restructuring meeting / Diagrams Review

Suggested Plan:

• 10th April – Staff Side Diagram Review Meeting

• 6th April – Diagrams to BF to distribute to OTDC Reps

Meeting concluded at 1545 hours and will reconvene on 9th March.

30th May 2018

David Crome Signed …………………………… Date …………………………

30th May 2018

Steve Harvey Signed …………………………… Date ………………………..

30th May 2018

Phil Jones Signed …………………………… Date ………………………..

Documents

GWR ON-TRAIN DIVISIONAL COUNCIL...Avocet Conference Room, Exeter St Davids Present:-FGW Management Divisional / Company / Sectional Council David Crome (DC) Head of On Board Management